#374 - "Doctors Are Legally BANNED From Telling You This" - Pharma Whistleblower | Brigham Buhler

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Brigham Buhler is a healthcare entrepreneur, founder and CEO of Ways2Well, and co-founder of ReviveRx Pharmacy. https://ways2well.com EPISODE LINKS https://www.instagram.com/brigham.buhler https://ways2well.com SPONSORS https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Becoming the first drug rep for Cialis 04:47 - The primary care problem in America 07:20 - Why you should self-pay prescription drugs 12:10 - The dirty secret of anti-depressants 16:13 - The prescription drug incentive program 21:27 - 5 insurance companies cover 90% of Americans 23:31 - The Pharmacy Benefit Managers scam 28:48 - Think of health insurance like car insurance 31:27 - The #1 mistake we're making with our health 34:26 - The testosterone myth 38:51 - Why it costs $250M to bring a drug to market 44:32 - Why health insurance keeps you in the dark 45:31 - How we're fixing problems in healthcare 49:58 - How Brigham ended up on JRE 53:17 - Lobbying against peptides with the FDA 01:00:34 - Why "FDA-approved" products aren't always safe 01:06:08 - The "problem" with peptides 01:08:02 - The origin of the opioid crisis 01:11:48 - Pediatrician's vaccine schedules 01:17:55 - Changes in child vaccine requirements 01:21:41 - How fast medical knowledge becomes antiquated 01:25:21 - Why RFK backed down on vaccines 01:29:49 - Importance of flipping the food pyramid 01:33:44 - Combining IGF + GLP-1 drugs 01:36:50 - Jelly Roll's weight transformation 01:44:19 - Small wins = huge progress 01:47:44 - Brigham's efforts in the MAHA movement 01:54:15 - FDA's response to MAHA 02:00:01 - Protecting healthcare from future administrations 02:06:55 - American healthcare vs. other countries 02:08:44 - Food ingredients in US vs. Europe 02:15:15 - New stem cell treatments 02:17:06 - Why stem cells were banned in America 02:22:17 - New Japanese stem cell discovery 02:28:33 - Early anecdotal results from stem cell therapy 02:31:51 - We can create real-life X-Men 02:36:24 - Psychedelics & super soldiers 02:42:26 - The MINDS project (psychedelic problem-solving) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:42Speaker 00

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• 1:07Danny Jones?

  Brigham, thanks for coming, bro.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Man, thank you for having me.

• 1:10Danny Jones?

  Dude, of course. I'm so happy that Jesse Michaels was able to introduce us back in July when I was in Austin.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  Oh, I love your show. It's funny, we were talking right before. I listened to you and Jesse and Joe Rogan kind of broke me into this whole world, but I love your podcast, Jesse's podcast, they're phenomenal.

• 1:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah, dude, thank you so much. And it's been awesome to get to meet you over the past few months and chat with you about this crazy stuff.

• 1:35Danny Jones?

  You have a wild backstory. And to start this thing off, I think you should like let people know like the industry you came from and like what you were doing for work back in the day, which led you down the path to where you are now with Ways to Well.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a wild story. You know, you kind of like, there's a Steve Jobs quote that talks about when you look back at your life and connect the dots, you'll realize that you were always exactly where you were supposed to be. And I don't know how to explain it. Even the bad things that have happened in the history of like where I was, everything put me in a position to Know the things I know today that have allowed me to to help like with the government and the lobbying and the fight against the corruption in the healthcare system. Um, but I started out as a as a drug rep right out of college. Uh, like bright eyed bushy tail. Uh, I was, uh, went to University of Houston. They offered me a job to launch a drug that hadn't been announced yet.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  And, you know, I'm like a 20 year old kid and they're like, can you get out? Can you graduate in the next couple of months? So I like took 24 hours in summer school, did a bunch of stuff to try and get out of college early. And I got to launch Cialis in North America for a company called Eli Lilly. Um, so I started out right out of school thinking that we were gonna, you know, at the time, you gotta think I'm 45. So this was 25 years ago, which is crazy to say, I thought That's insane. I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna help people and I'm gonna be a drug rep and I'm gonna educate doctors on like cutting edge treatments and we're gonna change the world. And you get into that and and we can get into it, but it that's not at all what that was.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  And so within a couple of years, I figured it out pretty quick for a kid that this isn't gonna work for me and I jumped out of that into med device. And, uh, I spent almost a decade working in the operating room with some of the best and brightest surgeons in America. And I got a look behind the curtain of the surgical market and the hospital systems and the insurance systems. And how all of this is an intricate network that's intertwined. Um, and during that timeframe is when I lost my brother to the opioid crisis, which then led to me starting a pharmacy that build insurances and worked within the insurance framework. Trying to provide non abusive, non addictive opioid alternatives to the American people, a no brainer. Like it's safer, it's better, it's cheaper.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  And what I saw like just shocked me. Uh, and from there, uh, I evolved into realizing I wasn't gonna be able to stay alive as an entrepreneur in an insurance model. And so it led to me finding a farm, building a pharmacy, breaking away, starting a cash pay pharmacy almost a decade ago, which was at the time. Nobody did that. Like, nobody had cash pay farm. People like, what are you doing? You're gonna sell meds? Everyone has insurance. What do you mean we're gonna pay cash? Because that whole COVID event hadn't happened yet, and the movement towards preventative care hadn't happened yet. And I've been talking about preventative care, predictive medicine for almost a decade. And the reason I was doing it was, candidly, like, to paraphrase all of

• 4:44Speaker 02

  it, I saw that the ship was sinking, and I knew the only way to fix this was to build a life raft. And in my mind, the life raft was to get proactive, predictive, and preventative. You've got to take yourself out of the broken healthcare system. Because under every rock I looked under in that system, there was another rattlesnake. It was terrifying what I saw. From the surgical market, to the drug rep market, to the care that patients got, to the collusion of industry, to the power that they had over the hospitals. People think that if they have insurance and they trust the system, that they're gonna be taken

• 5:22Speaker 02

  care of. And it's unfortunate, because I've said this before, but like, if you use insurance and you go to the average primary care in America, and you get the average blood work, and you'd get on the average medication, don't be surprised when you die of the average chronic disease.

• 5:40Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  The system's not built to prevent, it's built to monetize and profiteer off chronic disease. And that's just the facts.

• 5:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I've noticed that just from all the podcasts I've listened to over the past, however many years it's been, listening to smart people and doctors talk about different types of metabolic health, and exercise, and like vitamins, like the importance of all these things that your primary health physician doesn't really know much about. And, you know, over the years, like, going to do my annual checkup with my doctor, and like, having these conversations with him, and being like, huh? What are you talking about? Like, but how do those people know any of this stuff when they're seeing 100 patients a day?

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that that model shifted. When I was, when I started out as a drug rep, that was the first thing I saw. The clinicians went from seeing, from knowing the mother, the father, the family, you know, traveling to that house with their little leather bag, and they had a vested interest in you, and they had a patient population of maybe 100 people. And as soon as the insurance companies took over healthcare, it went to where the average primary care has to see 40 plus patients a day. On average in America, they have six minutes with a patient. And the reason these numbers are important is, how in the hell can I ever prevent your diabetes if I can't take a look under the hood? If I can't do a diagnostic workup that allows me to see where you're headed? So rather than waiting

• 7:06Speaker 02

  for you to become diabetic, like what we do at Ways2Well today, is because we're in a cash pay model, you and I were talking right before we got on the air, for $500, we can do a comprehensive blood work, we can do a DEXA scan, we can do a VO2 max, we can do a full clinical workup, we can hook you up to an EEG and assess brainwaves. If you come in depressed, anxiety ridden, overweight at a primary care practice, and they have six minutes with you, the first thing they're going to do is reach for the tool in their tool belt that's available, and that tool's a prescription drug. And that is why the average American is on four or more prescription drugs. We are the most chronically ill developed nation in the world, in the history of the world. But we have some

• 7:49Speaker 02

  of the lowest life cycle, lifespan expectations, even lower health span expectations. At the end of the day, you know, so often, people can't understand why they can't figure out what's wrong with them. And it's because the system isn't built to fix what's wrong with you, it's built to treat the symptoms of what's wrong with you and monetize that. And I can systematically break that down from every aspect of what I saw in over a decade of being in that space.

• 8:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, one of the most mind blowing, I think I learned this from you, actually, from one of your first podcasts on Rogan, was when you go into your doctor's office and you tell them you're self-pay, they automatically have to drop the price. Is that?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Oh, so no, no.

• 8:35Danny Jones?

  Did I learn that from you?

• 8:36Speaker 02

  One of the things I talked about is if you go into a pharmacy and you have insurance.

• 8:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah, they inflate it.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, because, well, there's a gag clause. So I didn't know that. And the only reason I know this, so so many people go, one of the things that's come out a lot, especially since I've been helping Secretary Kennedy and the Maha movement and trying to educate people on these nuances of healthcare, is well, that guy's not a doctor. How can he tell me? I'm not a doctor, but I employ doctors. I'm not a pharmacist, but I employ over 100 pharmacists. I'm not a chemist, but I employ chemists. I'm not a PhD, but I employ PhDs. And I have over 25 years of experience in healthcare. And I am telling you, the problem is not with the fish, the problem is with the tank. And when all the fish in the tank are sick and dying, at some point, you have to ask yourself, what is in the water? The

• 9:29Speaker 02

  problem isn't the fish, it's the tank. And we've got to drain the tank. And the only way to drain the tank is to take yourself out of that ecosystem. So, all the way back to, what is the starting point? So, everybody nowadays, candidly, like 90, I think it's 90 plus percent of Americans, get their healthcare through their employer. And what that means is you get your insurance through your employer. And so, these insurance companies are driving your healthcare experience. They're deciding what drug you get, when you get it, and how you get it. And so, as a retail pharmacy, this is why I had to move to cash pay. Your grandma would come in, and I could sell her Metformin for $2, for a whole month's

• 10:11Speaker 02

  supply. Metformin cost me $1 for a whole month's supply. And I'm just, I'm doing simple math. I think it's really like $2 and $5, but whatever. It's, let's just say it's about a 50% markup in a cash pay market. As soon as she tells me she has Blue Cross Blue Shield, or even if it's Medicare Medicaid, those programs are controlled by private payers, by the PBMs. That's all outsourced. So even our governmental payer programs are controlled by the big conglomerates. They have a gag clause that says it is not, I'm not legally allowed to tell your grandma that her cash pay price is $2. I swipe the card and it tells me $10. And I have to collect a $10 copay on a $2 drug.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  I don't get that additional $9. The insurance company takes all that money and I get like 10 cents. And they get all the profits.

• 11:05Danny Jones?

  What a fucking scam.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you're paying every month for these treatments. And that's why they'll switch you from one antidepressant to the next. From one cholesterol med to the next. And so often people would come in and go, what do you mean? My Lipitor is not covered. It's been covered for five years. And you're like, we're just the pharmacy. Like you're telling me my doctor changed your prescription? No, the insurance company did. And if you don't know the magic trick, if you haven't seen behind the curtain, the reason the insurance companies are changing the medication has nothing to do with what medication is best for you. It has to do with what medication is profiting them the most money. And even that's a little complicated, but if I can break it down just so it makes sense.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  So it gets tricky, but there's a middle man called the pharmacy benefit manager. And most people don't even know this exists.

• 11:58Danny Jones?

  Is this what you used to be?

• 12:00Speaker 02

  No, I just owned pharmacies that build insurances. So CVS would be a competitor.

• 12:06Danny Jones?

  When you started?

• 12:07Speaker 02

  When I broke off from being a device rep and all that, I started a pharmacy.

• 12:11Danny Jones?

  I was explaining like, I was asking like when you were a rep.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Oh, when I was a, when I was a drug rep, I called on clinicians and I educated them on medications.

• 12:20Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  And what I quickly learned in that space, and this is where it got dark, is when I first started, I launched Cialis, which is the Viagra competitor. It's a 36 hour Viagra. Everybody loved you.

• 12:31Danny Jones?

  Cadalfil, right?

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And when you're selling that, it's fun. There's not side effect. Everybody loves it. You're like Elvis walking in there because it was when it first launched. It was the biggest drug. And meanwhile, I'm just walking in and high fiving doctors while the toe fungus girl's sitting out there waiting for three hours because nobody wants to talk to her about toe fungus.

• 12:49Danny Jones?

  Oh my God.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  It was like the hottest thing in town because I launched.

• 12:53Danny Jones?

  Slinging Cialis.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I joked on Rogan, like dick pills were where the money was at. Everyone loved to talk to you. They wanted it for their buddies. They wanted samples.

• 13:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  It was fun and I was a 20 year old kid. And so that was the fun side of that. And I did that for almost a year and a half, but at one point I got reallocated, relocated to Houston, Texas, Texas Medical Center where they shifted my focus to mental health drugs. And that was where I first started to see the darkness of being a drug rep. I literally got call sheets that told me who the biggest prescribers were in a geographic region. I knew every drug that doctor prescribed the week before. The pharmaceutical companies have all of this. And my manager would say, you go find that person and you become their best fucking friend. And you find a way to grow the patient population. We need to sell more antidepressants. This is just how it worked.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  And as soon as I was in that job, I didn't even make it a year. I started looking to get out. I just couldn't do it. And I'm sitting there, I remember the epiphany clear as day. I was sitting in a training with a psychologist who was educating or psychiatrist who was educating us on the prescription. And we're going over placebo versus at the time it was Prozac. And it was like a 3% difference in efficacy. Placebo was almost as efficacious as the antidepressant.

• 14:20Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  And I remember asking, why is placebo so close? So now, jump forward 30 years later, since antidepressants hit the market.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Rates of depression are at an all time high. Rates of suicide are at an all time high. Deaths of despair at an all time high. Everything across the board, mental health wise in America is the worst it's ever been. When we launched antidepressants 30 years ago, they said, we are going to end depression. We are going to stop depression.

• 14:48Danny Jones?

  Do you know what the current prescription rates are of these antidepressants are?

• 14:52Speaker 02

  Oh, a huge amount of Americans are on it.

• 14:54Danny Jones?

  Have they continued with the trajectory?

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Continued with the trajectory and it's an ecosystem that's built in. And the dirty secret is if we were sold on that depression is a serotonin issue. You don't have enough serotonin in the brain. And if we can upregulate your serotonin reuptake inhibitor, we can, we can spike your serotonin levels. Do you know? Where that comes from, it's the craziest thing ever. There has never been one single study. There has never been one single autopsy. There has never been the ability to quantify serotonin levels in the brain that statistically show that antidepressants are working at a chemical level. So you go, wait, then how did they come up with that?

• 15:39Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Pfizer developed a questionnaire alongside one of their consultants, who at the time ran the American Psychiatric Association for America. And they tasked him with a questionnaire about depression. All of these are diagnostic tests that are question based. There was never, it was a theory that got written into history as a reality. But the reality of the matter is, we have no evidence that it is a serotonin related issue.

• 16:10Danny Jones?

  That's insane.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  And then-

• 16:11Danny Jones?

  That's like taking a questionnaire to figure out what your cholesterol is.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, that's my, and so furthermore, even to this day, exercise and sleep outperform antidepressants. Somebody, if they just go for a walk, it's going to astronomically outperform antidepressants.

• 16:29Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, here's the trends on all, I mean, and it's a growing market and it's a booming market. And it's a market that has been marketed and perpetuated and beat into the heads of primary cares since they were in med school.

• 16:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Uh, and they think, and I'm not saying your doctor thinks they're doing wrong. Your doctor believes in the system that trained them. But who built that system and who funds that system? And where does their continuing education come from? It's all bought, paid for and developed by the very companies that have the most to benefit by you being on a prescription drug. And that is why you've seen a boom in prescription drugs. Today, the average American's on four or more prescription drugs.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  The average American is on four or more prescription drugs.

• 17:14Danny Jones?

  So, explain to me how that downstream works, or that that stream, the incentive.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  The players.

• 17:20Danny Jones?

  The, the, so you have the physician on the bottom floor.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:24Danny Jones?

  Then there's you, you're, you're collaborating with the physician or meeting, taking them out to dinner and stuff like that. And then you work for the pharmaceutical company that's selling these antidepressants.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 17:35Danny Jones?

  What kind of kickback goes down to the doctor for prescribing this? Did they get quotas? Or how does that whole system work?

• 17:42Speaker 02

  No, so at this point in time, even back when I was there, they were already starting to crack down. And so they developed, uh, they, they developed basically the Abamed rules, which are saying that this, people think this was a government regulation. It was not. The pharmaceutical companies went to the federal government and said, hold on, hold on, we'll regulate ourselves. We'll create guidelines. You guys don't have to come in and regulate us. Well, we all agree that we'll play the same game by the same rules. We'll put checks and balances in place. We won't take guys on vacations. We won't take them on ski trips. We won't send them on these extravagant trips anymore. We'll limit what we pay them as a consultant, um, all of those things.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  The reality of the, of the matter is you have a lot of expense accounts and budgets and that clinicians reaching for a tool in their tool belt. And the tool available to them is what's covered by the insurance and what have I been educated on? Okay. Well, when you're the device rep or the drug rep that is in that clinic every week and you're the person bringing the lunches and the dinners and taking that clinician out. I became really good friends with most of my doctors and then I'm being educated by the corporation. And the corporation's telling me, we have to stop depression in its tracks. We have to stop depression in its tracks. And they bring in psychologists and psychiatrists that are funded by the company that educate you and help you grow a market.

• 19:01Danny Jones?

  You're doing a good thing.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  You do. It's not that all these reps are thinking, oh, I'm going to do a bad thing. And so one of the examples of one of the most evil things I saw is they talk about off-label. And you do training as a 20-year-old kid and you do all these online modules that say, I will not promote off-label. I will never promote off-label and all this is documented at the company level. Then they would bring in a super charismatic neurologist from some university like Stanford that'll come in there and start telling you where all they're using the medication off-label in their practice. And they'll go, you know, we've, this is indicated for depression, but where we saw a lot of benefit is in this subset population. And this is a big population in America. And then you're at dinner with your doctor drinking wine on a Tuesday night,

• 19:47Speaker 02

  and you're like, they're asking Brigham, I want to write more of this, but I just don't know where. I don't really see the patient you've laid out for me. And you go, do I, do I tell them about what that psychologist said, or that psychiatrist? Do I tell them what that professor from Stanford said? Maybe I'll just tell them and let them decide. They can do what they want with it. Right? And those seeds are planted everywhere. And then they're watered and nourished. And then that leads to more prescriptions. And right or wrong, that's just the nature of the beast of that ecosystem that you're living in. And then you go to the other players. So if we were to break it down by players, there's the doctor, who in all honesty is in a captured system, doing the best they can to navigate that system. Right? If I'm a clinician, and I went from, I have six minutes with you,

• 20:30Speaker 02

  I literally have got to get out of that room as fast as I can. Suzie comes in, she's overweight, she's depressed, she's got anxiety. Okay. I just met with Brigham, he told me about this anxiety med, there's a script. And she's depressed, here's an antidepressant. Okay. And I'm just throwing whack a mole at you, trying to fix the problem, and I got to get off and get into the next room. And that's how that whole system has been built over the last 30, 40 years. And so, the problem with that is, it's going to lead to more and more prescriptions, which is great for Wall Street, it's great for the big pharmaceutical companies, it's not great for the patient. And so, like today, if somebody were to come into the, a practice like Waste Wall, or any practice, any cash pay, medical practice,

• 21:14Speaker 02

  on average, we spend 45 minutes with a patient. We do a comprehensive analysis that usually at minimal includes blood work, a DEXA, and a VO2 max. None of those things would be allowed in a traditional healthcare system. Even blood work, people go, no, no, my primary care pulls blood work. Or women will go, no, no, my OB GYN pulls blood work. No, they pull a minimal panel.

• 21:37Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  And the way I know that is I also owned a blood lab where I went out and I marketed to primary cares in Texas. And I educated these clinicians in Texas on the importance of doing comprehensive blood work. Because if you're going to put somebody on a medication, shouldn't we at least know where they stand physiologically?

• 21:54Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Shouldn't we uncover if there's some sort of hormonal issue that could be causing the depression or anxiety? And the answer is absolutely yes. But when they try to do that, the insurance company go, whoa, what are you doing? No, no, no, we don't want you pulling all that blood work. No, you're allowed to pull five panels.

• 22:11Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Go back and pull five panels. If you keep pulling comprehensive blood work, we're going to terminate your contract. And so clinicians throughout the state of Texas got nasty letters telling them, if you continue to pull blood work, we will fire you as a clinician for Blue Cross Blue Shield, or Cigna, or Aetna, or United. And the problem with that is, most Americans are covered by their employer, and five insurance companies cover 90% of the coverage in America for the average American. So five insurance companies are controlling all access to what gets tested, what gets looked at, and that is not based off what's best for you. It's based off them hitting their quarterly earnings and quarterly profits.

• 22:52Danny Jones?

  I just don't understand why they would be so hesitant to want more blood work. Because if they got more blood work, wouldn't that just be more opportunity for them to prescribe more shit?

• 23:01Speaker 02

  So things like-

• 23:01Danny Jones?

  Or is it just because it's too expensive?

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Well, think about this. If the blood, blood work, surgeries, a lot of these things are costly to the insurance companies.

• 23:10Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Right? And if I'm an executive at United Healthcare, and I look at it and I go, hey, Brigham is prediabetic, I know that if Brigham progresses to diabetes, on average, it's going to cost us seven to eight times the cost annually to keep him alive and functioning. You would think, wow. Let's prevent the diabetes. Let's not prevent the progression. The dirty other analytic they have is that the average American switches employers every two and a half years. And so if me doing these workups and these tests, or this surgery, or whatever is going to hurt my quarterly profits today, I can kick the can down the road, deny the test. Less than 10% of patients object.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  So in America, less than 10% of patients fight the insurance company and reapply to the denial. And so most of the time, 90% of the time, the insurance company is able to push its will. And then if you go on a prescription drug, they're monetizing the prescription drug. So insulin is a revenue generator for the insurance company. And so here's how that worked. Yeah, this is where this gets crazy. Yeah, it's a little nuanced, but it's the truth. And this is one of the things I've testified. I've testified at the state level, at the federal level. This is one of the things that they're talking about trying to fix, but they've been talking about trying to fix it for 20 years. Yeah. So they, in the 80s, the government said, oh my God, we need to develop an advocate for the average American.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  We've got to protect these consumers. So they came up with the idea of developing what's called a pharmacy benefit manager. The pharmacy benefit manager's job was to go out and negotiate with the big pharmaceutical companies to drive down the cost of a prescription medication to make it affordable for me and you and our grandparents and our loved ones. In the 90s, in late 80s, the big five insurance companies went out, and it worked for a little bit, but like everything, no good deed goes unpunished. So then in the, in the late 80s and early 90s, the insurance companies went out and acquired these middlemen. So now the middlemen don't exist at all. All of the major PBMs in America are owned by either United, Cigna, Aetna, Blue Cross

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Blue Shield, or CVS Caremark. And that's an important differentiator, because as soon as they captured those entities, they stopped negotiating down the price of drugs and started negotiating up. Jesus Christ. The price of drugs. And so you go, wait, how does that make sense? If I'm Blue Cross Blue Shield, and Brigham goes on insulin, don't I have to pay for that insulin? Isn't it me paying for that insulin? And this is where the shell game begins. They put insulin on a balance sheet, saying that it costs them $600 a month.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  And that's what they show at United. But what you don't know is their middleman negotiated a $300 rebate that goes to the PBM. So they go to Eli Lilly and they say, rather than selling me insulin for the $300 you were selling it for, sell it to me for 700 and give me a $300 rebate. Right? And so then at the end of the year, well, they go, well, that doesn't make sense because they still paid for it. No, they paid $400 less than they're showing on the balance sheet because they got the rebate of the $300. Does this make sense so far?

• 26:29Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Okay. At the end of the year, a company like mine who employs over 600 people has to sit down with the insurance carrier where you settle up. And I told you earlier, 90% of Americans are covered through insurance through their employer. So at the end of the year, it's the employer that covers the holding cost of all those medicines. And that is how United Healthcare has gone from what it was 20 years ago to doing $368 billion in revenue. $368 billion in revenue. Roughly estimates are anywhere from 20 to 30% of their revenue came from pharmacy benefit managers. It is a cost center for them. It is a major cash

• 27:14Speaker 02

  flow revenue source for the insurance companies. And now you go, they have all these levers to pull. So one lever is, we're going to pay you less to see patients. Now you have less time with a patient. What that means is you can reach for the tools as fast as you can. And now you can't really do the deep dive. So now the average American went from being on one or two drugs to being on four drugs. All four of those drugs have rebates. All of those rebates go to your middlemen. All of those rebates go to your cost center that is now a profit center that now adds up to your quarterly earnings. And now I'm a new CEO at United or Cigna or Aetna, and I'm looking at it going, we've got to perpetuate the lie. And we can't stop it because I'm not going to be the CEO that dies on this hill. And I don't know if you saw, they've been doing senate hearings about this and

• 27:58Speaker 02

  congressional hearings. And they literally ask everyone in these, these executives from these pharmacy benefit managers to raise their hands if they also own pharmacies. And they're all raising their hands. Raise your hands if you also have gone out and acquired primary care practices. They all raised their hands. And so, one of the largest-

• 28:17Danny Jones?

  This is the worst part of capitalism.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  It's bad. It's bad and it's dark. And so what what people don't realize is a lot of the primary cares in America used to be private practice, right? So when I was a drug rep 25 years ago, most of these doctors were mom and pop doctors that were independent. That shifted in the 90s, the 2000s and to today. Whereas I think it's over 90% of primary cares are now employees of major institutions.

• 28:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah, right. Like the the physician for my kids are employees of this company called Baycare. That like which is a huge hospital. I mean, I don't know much about it, but I know all like the main there's like tons of offices just around Western Florida.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. So here's a real world example.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  United Healthcare juggernaut company owns the PBM Optum. Optum negotiates rebates with pharmaceutical companies. Those rebates are held at Optum. United Healthcare also is now one of the largest employers of primary cares in North America. They've gone out and acquired practices. I think it's like 26 or 27% of the primary cares in America are employees indirectly of United Healthcare.

• 29:32Danny Jones?

  What?

• 29:32Speaker 02

  So United is setting the policies, the protocols, the procedures, the reimbursement rates, when, where and how things get covered. And then you look at it and go, okay, so the average American is on four or more prescription drugs. We shouldn't be shocked by that. And the most simple analogy I use for people is this. You have to start thinking about your health insurance like you would car insurance. It's there if you total the car. It's really good. And I believe our healthcare system is really good at critical care, at surgeries, at catastrophic events. Where it is set up to fail you is preventative care. Where it's set up to fail you is preventing the chronic disease.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  They will not allow your doctor to typically get proactive, predictive and preventative. Because almost every one of those, Matt Modelli, you can't go, so let's break down even what I said. If you were to come to Wastewell, how would I, if you came in and you said, I'm depressed, I have anxiety, I'm gaining weight and I have no energy and no libido. In a primary care practice, they're going to write you an antidepressant. They're going to write you a Viagra.

• 30:38Danny Jones?

  Woo!

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Right? And they may even put you on Ozempic if you're overweight.

• 30:42Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  And that's their solution. Why? Because I have six minutes with you. And I know the insurance is going to tell me, "Go fuck yourself," as the doctor, if I try to do a DEXA. A DEXA is not indicated in America for preventative care. It's used to assess bone mineral density. The only way the insurance is going to cover that is if you're an elderly woman and you've already had signs of osteoporosis. But what can that tool be used for in a cash pay model? With a DEXA scan, I know your visceral fat, your subcutaneous fat. I know your bone mineral density. I know all of these stats. I know how much muscles on your left calf versus your right calf, your right bicep versus your left bicep. It gives me a full, comprehensive analysis

• 31:26Speaker 02

  of you today at the physical level. If you combine that with a VO2 max, I know your cardiovascular health. Now, if I combine that with comprehensive blood work, I have all of your biomarkers, where you are at the biological level on over 70 different markers that are crucial for me to see what's going on with you at a much deeper level. Now, I can cross-reference all of those things, and I can begin to predict and model out all-cause mortality and chronic disease risk. And I can get proactive, predictive, and preventative. And with a very high statistical probability, I can prevent the chronic disease.

• 32:05Speaker 00

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• 32:56Speaker 03

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• 33:05Speaker 02

  Rather than waiting for you to get the chronic disease.

• 33:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  But in that other model, the doctor's got six minutes. He knows the insurance won't cover it. He or she knows all that. They're doing the best they can to navigate a difficult system. They put you on the meds. They hope for the best. They push you out the door. And you come back in a year.

• 33:22Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Fatter, sicker, more depressed.

• 33:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Because we're, they're just throwing shit against the wall.

• 33:28Danny Jones?

  Well, like the crazy difference between folks that want to figure out a way to do, to optimize their lifestyle, or to live longer, or to, to feel better, to look better. Um, and people that get stuck in this like normal system, this, this meat grinder that is like the health insurance companies and primary care physicians that are owned by insurance companies is like the people that actually have the time and like the resources to do that. And like the most people that live like nine to five, like work nine to five jobs, don't have time. They're dealing with their kids. They're dealing with, uh, daycare, whatever it is like these people, this isn't on the front of their mind.

• 34:12Danny Jones?

  They're just like, oh God, we gotta do our, you know, our yearly doctor visit. Let's just go do it. And they don't think twice about it. And nor do they have the time to be educated about it, which sucks.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, it's tough. And everyone's just trying to make it through the day.

• 34:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  And so the problem with that is you don't drive your car and not put oil in it.

• 34:29Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  You don't drive your car and not change the oil. You don't drive your car and not rotate the tires. You don't drive your car and not put gas in. If you did that, you wouldn't be surprised when the motor blows up. But you also don't expect the insurance company to rotate the tires to change the oil and to add gas. You take autonomy and sovereignty over that and responsibility for that. And what's tough is we don't do that with our health. And we only get one body. You can always buy another car. You can't buy another body. How much do you spend on alcohol? How much do you spend on a mattress or a bed or a house or a car? These are things you're In for minutes a day, you are in your body 24/7 from the day you enter this earth to the

• 35:10Speaker 02

  day you leave it. And you've got one body. Stop fucking putting your body at risk in the hands of these scumbags that are going to monetize it as another cattle call. And I'm sorry to be that blunt, but that is where we're at. It is catastrophic. Like, the average American is riddled with disease, metabolic disease, diabetes, they're obese, most, most men under the age of 30 can't qualify for military service. Our fertility rates are plummeting. We are literally on the cusp of being infertile as a species. Yeah. And, and we could get into like, the food systems and all the things I've testified since, since helping with Maha. Cause that was mind blowing to me. Cause even me, my

• 35:54Speaker 02

  personal journey is at 35 years old. I told you before we came on air, my dad's diabetic, my sister's diabetic, my brother's diabetic, my mom's diabetic. I was 25% body fat, on the cusp of obesity, on the cusp of diabetes. I was doing CrossFit every day. I, I went and hired a nutritionist. I was trying to do what the nutritionist told me. And then finally, my insurance wouldn't like cover a urologist. Right? And that's the other problem. It's an obstructionist mindset. So for you to get testosterone in an insurance model, right? To get preventative care in an insurance model, because testosterone is considered a lifestyle drug. For you to get that. In, in America. This isn't the case overseas, right?

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, no, we're, it's, it's crazy. And so here, you would have to get referred. Now, this is changing too, because of the most recent guidelines from the FDA, right? This is something I talked about on Rogan six years ago. Right. Like, the myth about testosterone causing cancers, the myth about women's hormones causing cancers and ovarian cancer, all that is exactly that. It is dogma. It has been debunked. It is not true. And there is quantifiable plethora of data that proves otherwise. If testosterone was causing prostate cancer, we saw a boom in the amount of men on testosterone starting in 2000, when Pfizer launched its testosterone cream, we would have seen a skyrocket in the amount of prostate cancer. Right.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  More men are on testosterone than ever before, and prostate cancer rates have stayed the same.

• 37:27Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  So it's less than 8% of men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer. There is no correlation between hormone optimization and prostate cancer. In fact, it's the exact opposite, and that's one of the challenges of healthcare. So often, they are practicing 20 to 30-year-old medicine, especially if you're in the insurance model. Because the insurance is dictating every test, every single thing they can do. And so your doctor doesn't have the tool in the tool belt. It's hard to build a house if you don't have a hammer.

• 37:56Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  And they don't have the hammer.

• 37:58Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  So how can they help you build the house? Because the insurance company's not giving them the hammer. Um, and so I, it's just, it's so convoluted and complicated and complex, but there's ways to distill it down.

• 38:09Danny Jones?

  Why are things like testosterone and these other, uh, ways of optimizing hormone therapies such like, uh, why are they ignored by pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies and not pushed more? Like these other ones, is it because they can't patent it specifically to them themselves?

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:27Danny Jones?

  Like Ozempic versus testosterone, you would imagine testosterone would be prescribed a lot more than something like Ozempic.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So a lot of the hormone stuff is dogma. Um, and what I mean by that is like even the testosterone study that, that if you talk to somebody who, who went to med school, even five years ago, they were taught that there is a correlation between testosterone and the risk of cancers. That study comes from a 1930s study, uh, I think it was Dr. Huggins. He did a study of a patient population of three people. One guy dropped out of the study.

• 38:59Danny Jones?

  Oh, I heard this one.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  One guy was chemically castrated, meaning he had no testosterone. And then the other guy had testosterone. When they boosted his testosterone, they saw his PSA went up, which is, which in theory can increase your risk of prostate cancer. However, what they didn't follow him through was once he got to an optimal level. And so the reason that's important is if you're low, like if you have pre-existing prostate cancer and you're chemically castrated, taking you from chemically castrated to having testosterone will increase your risk of prostate cancer.

• 39:31Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  But as soon as you go past being low to being optimal, it reverses. And now it reduces your risk of prostate cancer. And so the goal is to get you to an optimal testosterone level and it insulates you against most forms of cancer. Because you're healthy.

• 39:47Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  And when you optimize your health, you're gonna put on a little more lean muscle mass. You're gonna reduce visceral fat. You're gonna improve bone mineral density. You're gonna improve cognitive function. You're gonna improve energy level. Now you're feeling better. All of that leads to motion and mental health. And now you're outside playing with your kids.

• 40:02Danny Jones?

  It's cascading, right?

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Yes. And there's a cumulative effect of all of this stuff. And sometimes we don't see the forest through the trees. And so there was a dogma there. And then over time, I think that dogma became accepted protocol.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  But even back to your discussion about the GLP-1s. Yeah, I would go back and say, why, why is your primary care so willing to reach for a GLP-1? Or so willing to reach for insulin? I can't tell you how many primary cares have told our patients that we treat now at Ways to Well. They go, why I talked to my primary care about peptides? And they said, I don't know what you're talking about. Or they said, peptides are dangerous. I don't know anything about them. They didn't train us on peptides. You shouldn't be messing with peptides. Insulin's a peptide.

• 40:45Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  The GLP-1 drug is a peptide. You just know the peptides that insurance are covering. And how do we decide what insurance covers? You decide it because it's gone through the FDA. And how do we decide what drugs make it through the FDA? That's controlled by the big pharmaceutical companies. Because it costs over $250 million to bring a drug to market. And the only way you're gonna bring that drug to market is if you can patent the molecule.

• 41:12Danny Jones?

  $250 million? What, why does it cost so much?

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Because it's built that way. And that's the other.

• 41:20Danny Jones?

  Where's all that money go?

• 41:21Speaker 02

  So I, I, I had the privilege of testifying in front of the Senate. And I broke down the broken healthcare system. And I gave my lens as an entrepreneur in healthcare. And one of the things I said to them is, there's a, there's this, this famous speech from Eisenhower, where he talks about the military industrial complex that everyone knows about. And he warned the American people of what would happen if we allow the military industrial complex to infiltrate and control our government and our, and our three-letter alphabet organizations and our institutions. There's a second half to that speech that nobody ever fucking talks about. Where he warned what would happen if we allow our healthcare institutions and our scientific communities to be infiltrated and controlled by private industry.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  And this is what's happened. Who funds all of the major universities? Who funds most of the researches of PhDs? Who funds most of these things? It's the big pharmaceutical companies. Who has the most to gain by making it difficult to bring a drug all the way to market? It's the big pharmaceutical companies. So let me give an example of, let's just say a peptide theoretically. If I'm a big pharmaceutical company, you can't, you are gonna have a very difficult time as a biotech or healthcare startup, bringing a drug all the way to market without running out of capital. Right. So inevitably, most drugs get captured by one of the big five pharmaceutical companies

• 42:49Speaker 02

  before they ever come to market, and then they monetize it, bundle it up, get it through the FDA, and we're off to the races. Right. Because they have the- They already have the relationships, they already have all the- And the protocols and the procedures and the pathways. Yes. Wow. And so, your clinician is intimately familiar with what they can have covered. And so I can break that, like, in orthopedic surgery, to this day, most orthopedic surgeons go, "You can't get stem cells in North America." You can. It's just not FDA-approved. You can. It's just not gonna be covered by insurance. And how do we decide what's covered by insurance? You have to go through this entire FDA approval process, and then you have to create a bill code, and it has to be indicated for a certain treatment modality. Right?

• 43:33Speaker 02

  And so, back to testosterone. Why is testosterone not covered by insurance? It is if you're considered clinically low. How do you get a diagnosis of clinically low? A primary care is typically not gonna give you that. So you go to your primary, and this is the system that I- They're not even gonna give you that blood test? No, if they get an initial low reading, they're gonna refer you out to an endocrinologist or a urologist. Got it. And then that, in this system, can take anywhere from six to nine months to get in with that doctor. And then your insurance is typically going to deny it and you're going to have to have your primary care write a letter and argue with the insurance company. Now, I can finally go to my, this is exactly my experience. Primary care goes, yeah, everything looks good. He wasn't even looking at my testosterone, never had pulled my testosterone.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  I'm 25% body fat, high cholesterol, on the cusp of diabetes. He was going to put me on a prediabetes medication and some of these other things, but never looked at my testosterone. And then it's like, uh, my, it was my nutritionist who said, you need to go to a urologist. So it took me about six months to get my primary care to get me in with a urologist. Then I go into the urologist and you have to go fasted and you have to do a blood draw. Then it took two weeks to get that blood work back. Then the blood work comes back and my testosterone was 90, which is crazy. You have to have two fasted blood draws before the, my insurance carrier would cover it, which is pretty common. So then I have to wait a few more months. Like to corroborate the first one? Yes.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Then I come back a few months later, get another blood draw, a test low. And then at that point, I get a E, an explanation of benefits in the mail, an EOB that says, we are going to cover this full blood draw. You're on the hook for, uh, $300 of it. Right? And so in that insurance model where I've paid for that care, they still leave me holding the bag of shit. I'm paying for my blood work. I can do that blood draw today, literally with a 45 minute consult with a clinician that's an expert in hormone optimization for 500 bucks. What were you paying for? It's the same exact trap you saw at the pharmacy with the Met Foreman.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Along the way, the insurance company is monetizing all these things. And Luigi, Luigi, the guy who killed the United Healthcare CEO, he wrote, delay, deny, depose. Delay. You obstruct the care. You tell them, well, you're going to have to go get another blood draw. You're going to have to, you're going to have to get approval, a prior authorization before we'll let you go to the urologist. Deny. You now got your blood draw. We're not going to cover it. You owe us half the money from the blood draw. And then depose. If you step out of line as a clinician, you're going to end up in a lawsuit and litigation where they're going to make your life hell.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  There's so many checks and levers that these insurance companies can pull that it makes it very complicated and very difficult. One of the things I explained to Tucker is, people say, "It's just so hard to understand what my insurance covers," or, "I got this explanation of benefits and it's really confusing and I just don't understand. How are they making money and where's the money hidden?" and blah, blah, blah, blah. Because the margins, literally, the margins are made in the mystery.

• 46:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  The margins are ma-- it's intentional. It is by design to make it deceptive and confusing. So, the burden is on you, the patient, and you get frustrated and you give up. Because if you give up, that's less revenue that they have to spend. That's less cash that goes out the door and more revenue that they get to keep. And the harder they make it for you to get surgeries, for you to get predictive preventative care, the more prescription drugs you're on. And the more prescription drugs you're on, the better the quarterly earnings and quarterly profits. And all of this ecosystem's built that way because it is now built to hit quarterly earnings and quarterly profits. It's not built to get proactive, predictive, and preventative.

• 47:32Danny Jones?

  Is there any way to throw wrench into that, into those gears and blow up this whole system? Is there any hope?

• 47:38Speaker 02

  I think what I've said all along is, all I've tried to do is solve problems. Like, I literally looked at it and I go, "Okay, I've got a pharmacy. They're not letting these people fill these prescriptions. I'm going to build a cash pay pharmacy and I'm going to compound all the medications that insurance refused to cover." And so, that's how I started my pharmacy revive. I would get a book, like, literally almost like a phone book, every quarter, from the insurance companies with all the new drugs they're not going to cover. And then I would take that book and I would go to my pharmacist and I would go, "Which one of these things can we compound?" And so then we would start compounding all the things insurance weren't going to cover. And that's how we started the pharmacy. Then you go to blood work. I owned a blood lab that billed insurances and I went out and I educated the doctors on the blood work.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, then the doctors got letters saying you can't pull the blood work. So then I said, we're going to have to move to cash pay on blood work. So I went out and I moved my lab to being a cash paid blood work lab to drive down the cost. And now I can charge you the real price. I can charge a real price that's cash affordable for the patient. But the catch was, and again, this is eight years ago. This is nine years, this is prior to COVID. So nobody, everyone still believed in the healthcare system at this point. And I was out banging on doors and going, hey, we can do your blood work for cash. And they're like, what? I have insurance. Why the hell would I pay, why would I use my money to do blood work? Right. And I'm like trying to educate them on all of this complicated, multifaceted stuff to explain why you've got to build your own life raft.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Now I feel like the world's woken up and it's crazy how many blood lab companies are out there. Yeah. So even the evolution of my company, the next phase for Ways2Well is I don't care where you get your blood work. If you've, if you've got blood work from a primary care, bring it. You got blood work from Merrick Health, bring it. You got blood work from 10x, bring it. We're here to be a resource and if we're here to help you with the last mile. And so through loading your blood work into our AI and our algorithm, if you've got a DEXA from somewhere, load it in. You got a VO2 max from somewhere, load it in. I'm not here to sell you modalities. I'm here to treat the root cause. And the only way I can treat the root cause is to identify the root cause. And all I need are the tools. And so I don't care where you get it.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  My goal is to make this as cheap as possible. I want every single American to be able to afford this. Like what you said earlier, how many people are just trying to make it through the day? They're running their kids to soccer and baseball and they're tired and they have very little time in their life to deal with all this stuff. We've got to make it easier, faster and better. And that's why at Ways2Well, originally we, we rolled out mobile phlebotomy. We send somebody to your house, we pull your blood. Now we've got your blood work, it loads into the algorithm, that's all in your pocket. That's amazing. Your consult's over the phone, everything's mailed to your house for pennies on the dollar. And so that was the original vision and that's still the vision and it's evolved astronomically to where now it's like, hey, we'll even take other people's blood work. Like if you've got blood work from a competitor from somewhere and you just don't feel like you're getting

• 50:35Speaker 02

  the answers you need, load that blood work. If your primary care has put you on a bunch of prescription drugs and you don't feel like they're analyzing your blood work, load it in. And I think large language models like ChatGPT and a lot of these are going to help people. Because now the power is going back to the patient. The knowledge is going back to the patient. It's not this authoritarian regime where you've got to rely on your primary care to give you answers. The answers are in your pocket. They're in your phone 24/7.

• 51:01Danny Jones?

  Now, these pharmaceutical companies have to be seeing this happening. They have to be seeing the rise of the grassroots folks like you who are doing this the right way and other people who are doing similar things to you. And they have to be coming up with some sort of a strategy to combat this, right?

• 51:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:18Danny Jones?

  And obviously, they have more money than God. And the scariest part of it is they also have control over media, the internet, YouTube. You know, it's only until recently where you can do podcasts like this and you don't get in trouble on YouTube for it. Which is terrifying, bro.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:40Danny Jones?

  So like, what do you think? Or what do you have you experienced as far as like, pushback from these companies and like what they're trying to do in the government with lobbying and all that?

• 51:54Speaker 02

  The lobbying power is intense. I mean, it is as intense as it gets. When you first get into the YouTube stuff during COVID, I mean, they banned our account multiple times for ways well. We couldn't grow on social. And then I legally, because a lot of what we do is off-label, I can't brand and I can't advertise. One example is the first time I went on Rogan, two days before I go on Joe's podcast, the merchant company shut off all of our credit card ability. And they had $400,000 of the money that had been paid to us sitting in a merchant account. And the way those merchant accounts read is if you dispute them or litigate, they have the right to just take the money that's in the escrow account.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  And we weren't making that guy. That was like all of my profits and they could have taken all of months worth of profits because it gets siphoned out at a certain date every like 30 days or whatever they would move the money back to us. And so all this money was sitting there. I have no access to it. You banned me from being able to bill future credit cards. What year was this? This was during the COVID stuff. So, and it was because Before you went on Rogan? Yeah, literally two days before I went on Rogan, the very first time. And then I go on Rogan and we have an influx of all these patients and we have no way to bill them. We have no way to onboard patients because our credit card merchant won't, won't allow us to bill or collect because they said we were advertising peptides and stem cells and those aren't FDA approved. And so they can shut down your, it's just like the marijuana

• 53:21Speaker 02

  trade. They can shut down your banking. They can shut down your access to billing and collections if you're not in their ecosystem. And they can do it in an array of different ways. So, and then you also get shut down on social media. Like we've been banned so many times on, on Instagram and different things because we do peptides and peptides aren't FDA approved, or you do stem cells and stem cells aren't FDA approved. And if some kid thinks you're making a claim, they can just come and hammer you and make your life hell. And that's how I ended up on Rogan. I was literally breaking down for Rogan, the corruption, the collusion and the corporate capture. And one day, because he was a patient and I was just talking to him when he's in the clinic and we had developed a relationship over maybe a year and a half. And one day he goes, come on the podcast. I'm like, dude,

• 54:05Speaker 02

  I've never done a podcast. He's like, dude, shut the fuck up. It's two guys talking. Just come on the podcast. And so I remember going on there terrified and like, it was just terrifying. And it led to getting to know a lot of politicians, getting phone calls from all over the United States with people who were firsthand had experienced the things that I was talking about. I mean, I'm talking congressmen, congresswomen, state attorney generals who were digging into these insurance companies, whistleblowers, you name it. And at this point, I've helped multiple states.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  With the pharmacy benefit managers and the way that they're getting price gouged, like in the state of Ohio, they uncovered, I think, $230 million in healthcare fraud through the PBM, meaning drugs being marked up, uh, uh, drugs that should have been a fraction of the cost or causing their governmental payer programs exorbitant expenses. And that's one ta- one state, one year, and that's not even a large state. Now multiply that across the United States and think about how much fraud, waste, and abuse is occurring.

• 55:08Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  It's astronomical.

• 55:11Danny Jones?

  That's terrifying.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. But the other thing today, like real world today, um, most of the pharmaceutical companies have been lobbying the FDA pretty hard to shut down peptides. Um, and as of about a year ago, under the Biden administration, they passed, uh, a regulatory plan that essentially eliminated overnight 19 blockbuster peptides that were being used every day. Things like BPC 157, the Wolverine molecule, TB 500, uh, thymus and alpha, um, even, even, I mean, I mean, you name it.

• 55:49Danny Jones?

  I heard they were trying to put the kibosh on, uh, fish oil.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:53Danny Jones?

  Fish oil supplements.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's everything. It's nuts. I mean, it, it is so much stuff that they have regulated. So.

• 56:00Danny Jones?

  Is fish oil considered a, they're not.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  No, it's considered a supplement, so you can still get it. But what they did is they, the FDA essentially in a vacuum banned 19 peptides. And so that, that's all happened over the last three years. Real world data, I have submitted 17 FOIA requests to the FDA. 17 about these peptides. They are legally required by law to respond within a certain timeframe. I think it's like 90 days. Do you know how many requests they've responded to?

• 56:32Danny Jones?

  Zero.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Zero.

• 56:34Danny Jones?

  You got a response from the CIA.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Not a single FOIA request. And so here's another example, the GLP-1 weight loss drugs. They grew so fast that the big pharmaceutical companies couldn't keep up with the demand of the American people. And these drugs were originally indicated as a diabetic medication, meant to be helping poverty-stricken communities, people with severe diabetes. Right. But when every housewife in Malibu is taking it to lose 10 pounds for spring break, you couldn't get it anymore. So then the prices just kept going up. At one point, the average retail price of a GLP-1 drug in North America was $1,300 a month. Whoa.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  $1,300 a month for a medication that we could compound and mail to your doorstep for under $200. The federal government released guidelines saying, "This is now put on an emergency backlog list. Can compounders please make this drug? We can't meet the need of the American people. Diabetics are not able to get their medication because so many Americans are taking this weight loss drug." So we go out and we start compounding those drugs because we were asked to by the FDA. What happens? Within months, even though we were asked to compound this drug, Eli Lilly sues us. Now you have to litigate against Eli Lilly in the court system.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  And Eli Lilly says, and they lobby the FDA, "You can't let these guys make this. We've got to shut these guys down. These drugs are dangerous. These are compounders. This is a dangerous drug." What they're not telling you is, we buy our ingredients from the same place as Eli Lilly. We compound it to the exact specifications that are the protocols we're supposed to. We independently third-party verify every single ingredient. We then independently third-party verify every single batch, and we batch check. And we have all of these safety calls, protocols, and procedures to make sure that what we're providing the patient is as safe and as efficacious as possible. So Eli Lilly files lawsuits against all the compounders throughout the United States. We've now litigated those lawsuits.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  All of them? Oh, almost every single one. Wasn't just us. And so we've litigated those cases in the court system. And the judges have asked Eli Lilly to provide the data of danger and side effects and adverse events. In every court case across the United States, they have not been able to provide any of that data. In fact, in one of the cases against a large telemedicine company, they went to Reddit forum chat rooms as their data. And they showed that to the judge. And the judge said, if Reddit forum chat rooms are the best you have, like, get out of here. But the problem is, if you give information and you pressure these politicians and you can spin a narrative and you have accessibility through your lobbying power,

• 59:28Speaker 02

  you can paint the narrative without the data. And then you've got a politician going, well, all I know is these gray and black market peptide companies are making or violating patents and they're doing this and they're doing that. And it's like, no, you don't know the history. The FDA asked these compounders to make this. Then Eli Lilly sued the compounders. And now, all of this is in litigation, costing people hundreds of thousands of dollars a month to defend a medication that we were asked to make by the government in the first place. So are you still under litigation with this? We actually, in the state of Texas, the judge just threw the case out with prejudice, meaning that Lilly and Novo and these big companies are not allowed to refile these

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  lawsuits against us. And but they're still suing all these other compounding pharmacies. And there's huge lawsuits going on. And the lobbying power and rhetoric has gone through the roof. And they're the real reason that we lost those 19 peptides years ago. But there's no safety data to back it. And even with what they're saying with the GLP-1s, they have no safety data to show that this is a liability or a risk. It's all back to that marketing and that spin. And who are the masters of marketing and spin? The pharmaceutical companies that built the entire antidepressant market, created the SSRI market, created the opioid crisis. Owned the media. Owned the media, fund the media, fund the narrative, control the message. I think

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  they spent $32 million last year in lobbying power in DC. I mean, they're one of the biggest lobbyists out there. And then who else is? The big five insurance companies. And these entities are intertwined. Because guess what? If you fill a compounded GLP-1 for $200 cash, guess who's not making the 30% rebate? Your insurance company.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  Guess who's not getting the sticker gouge that they're used to? The big pharmaceutical company?

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  And so this create and get and then even let's go a step deeper, which starts to get kind of crazy. Guess who's not getting $250 million to bring that drug to market? The regulatory oversight bodies that make money off fee schedules and structures to evaluate and assess studies. That's the FDA. So the FDA is built into the ecosystem. If they don't have that process, that's how they fund the operation. And so there is an incentive to have a lie agreed upon.

• 1:01:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah, they are. They rely on those big pharmaceutical companies for their existence, which is fucking crazy, dude.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Danny Jones?

  How, what is the difference? As far as like this, the, the, the standards that you have to follow or like the, the safety or like the cleanliness protocols of the facilities when it comes to a compounding pharmacy versus one of these big pharmaceutical companies?

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's interesting too. Um, so this is a very common misnomer. People assume if something's FDA approved, that it's safe. And that it's been vetted and that it's had human safety studies and that we're good to go. You're, you're safe. It's an FDA approved product.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  I can systematically dismantle that and I'm going to in the next one minute. Through facts, data and the reality. And I actually argued with a high ranking FDA official about this very topic. Okay, let's start on the surgical market because I told you I had a lot of experience working in the surgical market.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  If you look at every single surgical product that goes into the operating room, I'm talking pacemakers, implants, women's health products, men's health products, neurological products that are going into your brain, joints. What percentage of those products do you think had a human safety study?

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  I don't even want to guess. The answer is less than 10%. 92% of the shit that has gone into the operating room for the last 20 years has never had one single human safety study. Not one. And you go, how is that possible? Because in the 1980s, the big medical establishment lobbied the FDA to establish what's called the 510K approval process. What that said is if you can show a pre-existing technology that exists in the operating room, you can daisy chain your technology into the operating room. Why is that important?

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  That's like saying if I have a Bell telephone on a cable at my house and now I have an iPhone that's a fucking rocket ship in my pocket, it's the same piece of technology. Because you daisy chained a daisy chain, a daisy chain, a daisy chain, a daisy chain, a daisy chain. That's like saying a Tesla is a Model T Ford. Right. Right? The evolution of technology is rapidly progressing. And why is that important? Man, I can tell you in my time in the operating room,

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  I have seen people die in procedures that will never be reported, that will never get reported to the FDA. 100%. Because what happens is the hospital and the big medical device company will put together a package deal for that family and they will pay the family and they will all sign NDAs and they'll shut it down. So it doesn't become public. And so, one real world example in my stint in the operating room, we launched high-res HD cameras. And when the first high-definition came out into the operating room and you're in the middle of a critical procedure, I was standing in a heart surgery

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  and every time you're using the camera to look at a screen and do this heart procedure, every time they would cauterize, the fucking camera would turn off. You're literally in the heart valves and the camera go boop and just shut off. They had never validation tested the chipset to be used against electro cauteri. So as soon as the electro cauteri would engage, it would turn off the fucking chipset and the camera.

• 1:05:49Danny Jones?

  They're flying blind.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  Flying blind. They'd have to stop and they're like, what happened? What happened? And this was a glitch that never got discovered because they never did any of these safety studies. And then you can go, I mean, I can give you literally dozens and dozens and dozens of examples. There was a product called Esher. There was a, where they'd go in and put an implant into the uterus. But what they didn't realize is they, they did studies about putting them in, but they never did studies about putting them out. So what if a woman wanted to reverse it? Well, now her uterus, uterine wall had grown into it and it was literally causing women to lose their fertility, where they could never have children. And all of these things happen like every day. Yeah. That would, that implant would, would grow into the woman's body where she couldn't have the procedure.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  She couldn't remove it. And so she'd be infertile. And they're, one of the companies created a joint, and this is a true story too, which is kind of funny. Uh, because they don't ever do these human studies, the joint after about a year would start squeaking. So you would walk and it'd go and how the lawsuit came up is a guy was having sex with his wife. This is a legit story and his hip was squeaking the whole time. And so he filed a lawsuit because he had like this squeaky hip. But the only way to fix that's to rip the hip out, right? And these are some of the more like funny stories. But I also saw, you know, um, there was like a shaver that was used to shave down tissue. And they had changed it so many times over its evolution of 20 years.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  What they didn't do is take into account, you've got to be able to clean the shaver and clean out the tissue that flows through this cannulated piece of device. And the tissue was building up in these shavers and these shavers were being dispensed all over hospital systems. And it's a theory of clean dirt. You cook and sterilize these shavers to kill the bacteria. But if there's a big old clump of tissue from an infected patient stuck in the middle of a cannula, straw that you can't see, cause you can't see down into the straw.

• 1:07:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  That tissue could harbor an ultra resilient bacteria and it happened.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  And it killed people. And there are examples after so one 510 K approval process.

• 1:08:02Danny Jones?

  Well, that's the most that's like the number two or three cause of death.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  Number three cause of death is medical misdiagnosis and misuse. That was where I was going with it.

• 1:08:08Danny Jones?

  Hospital.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  Now you go to the drug side of the world. There and this is my discussion with this high ranking official at the FDA because he said, we don't have any double blind placebo controlled FDA trials on peptides.

• 1:08:19Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  And I said, that's because peptides occur naturally in nature. They're a short chain amino acid and we cannot patent a peptide. It's it's human patent law. You can try, why is big pharma not winning its lawsuits on the GLP ones? Because they're peptides. It's it's readily, you can patent the delivery mechanism. You can patent the dosage. You cannot patent the molecule because the molecule is available in nature. Right? And so that's the problem with peptides. It's an un, it's a new world. That's the problem with stem cell therapy. It's a new world. You can patent the delivery mechanism or a protocol or a procedure, but you cannot patent the molecule.

• 1:08:56Danny Jones?

  Because the biological molecule comes from nature.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  It's already there. And so there's challenges around that and you won't win in patent law. So let's look at even drugs. Sorry, I know this is, I went way off topic on the 510 K, but let's go back to drugs, which is the main point because that would be a competitor to a peptide is a drug. 60 to 80% of the drugs that have been approved by the FDA will have a major recall or label change. 60 to 80%. 60, a coin toss.

• 1:09:28Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  Even after going through your human safety studies and all your data, it's a coin toss. Furthermore, when you look at human safety studies, if you already have a preexisting study around safety and you apply for a new indication, meaning you grow the patient population, which is what I told you my whole job was as a drug rep. Right? This is indicated for depression, but we think it may work in anxiety. Okay, well, anxiety is a different patient population. Anxiety may impact a different subset of of of the human population and that subset may have a different response to this modality. So like one example I give you is opioids. Polynesians and Hawaiians can't absorb opioids.

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  So they don't get any therapeutic benefit from an opioid. They're an outlier. They can't absorb them? They absorb the negatives of it, but they don't get the therapeutic relief. It's a gene defect. Polynesians and who? And, and like Hawaiians and Polynesians have a... Oh, just them? Yeah, they, for whatever reason, opioids do not provide the pain relief typically in those populations, but they're still addictive and they still wreck the endocrine system and they still cause all these other Whoa. crazy side effects. And so how did OxyContin get into the market? Prior to OxyContin, they used hydro... they used codeine. Mm-hmm. And they had the oxy... they had the, uh, the cotton delivery system. And so it was codeine in the cotton delivery system.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  And the premise was codeine was time released, which reduced the likelihood of becoming addicted. The patent was going to expire and they were running out of time to innovate a new drug. So the Purdue Pharma family said, "We've got to bring a new drug to market. We're losing our cash cow." They go out and they find a new opioid called Oxy. But what they didn't tell the American public is Oxy is eight times more addictive, abusive, and habit-forming than codeine. It was a nuclear bomb and they were able to lobby the FDA commissioner at the time to allow them to grandfather in the safety data of their codeine product based off the cotton delivery system.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  And the message was, "This is time released. It can't be abused. It can't be addictive because it's time released." But they never had... they didn't have any positive addiction data. They were able to basically just talk their way into it because of their pre-existing relationship. The commissioner of the FDA rubber stamped it, gave them an indication for pain relief, and put in the label, "The goose that laid the golden egg", which said it's less likely to be addictive, even though it was eight times more likely to be addictive. Pushed it into the marketplace, created the opioid crisis, millions of Americans die, and then guess who made 30% of that money and has never been mentioned? The PBMs.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  All this data is out there. Thirty percent of the money went back to the insurance companies. They've gotten off with this scot-free this entire time. Nobody ever talks about those guys. They just talk about the pharmaceutical companies. And the reason that's important is when I go back to when I was trying to push non-addictive, non-abusive pain creams, the insurance companies would say, no, put them on an opioid. And now you know why.

• 1:12:45Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  Because thirty percent of their revenue was coming from the opioid. So they had no reason to keep you off the opioid. They had every reason to put you on the opioid. Why would you not want somebody on a pain cream? Because it's compounded. And guess who doesn't make money off a compounded drug?

• 1:13:01Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  The insurance companies and the PBMs. And so it all just comes full circle.

• 1:13:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  Here's the worst part of all. Guess who the commissioner of the FDA went to go work for eighteen months later? Purdue Pharma.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  Purdue Pharma. Ninety percent of the commissioners-

• 1:13:20Danny Jones?

  The script just writes itself, bro.

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  It's nuts, dude. And ninety percent of the commissioners of the FDA have gone to work for the very industries that they're supposed to regulate. Ninety percent.

• 1:13:30Danny Jones?

  And all of this infrastructure is still in place today.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:34Danny Jones?

  And through COVID, this whole infrastructure has been there.

• 1:13:37Speaker 02

  The whole time. And then you look at what happened with the COVID vaccine. And then you look at what happened with the childhood vaccine schedule.

• 1:13:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  And then you just keep looking and every rock you look under is another rattlesnake.

• 1:13:48Danny Jones?

  Can you explain to me what's going on with pediatricians and the vaccine schedules? Where there's something going on where in their practice, they have to have a certain percentage of their patients vaccinated or else they lose some big cash bonus?

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. So what, like I said earlier, a lot of these primary care practices have been consumed by corporate conglomerates. And so they're no longer a free working employee, a free working clinician. They're an employee of an institution. And so let's give an example of like, um-

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  I think Kelsey Siebel, I don't know, do y'all have Kelsey Siebel here in Florida? Kelsey Siebel is a huge healthcare conglomerate. I've never heard of it. That went out and bought up a bunch of primary cares, but they also own the hospital. And so the premise is if you vertically integrate as a healthcare institution and you own the primary care, you are the first point of contact for a patient. What's earlier than a primary care? A pediatrician. So if you own the pediatric practice and you own the primary care practice and they all roll up under the parent company that's the hospital, and now you've vertically integrated, if a little kid gets injured, they go to your hospital, right? Because that's where that doctor, their primary, their pediatrician's going to refer them. That's where that primary care is going to refer you if you go, is the hospital that owns and pays their check. Right?

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  And so it's a way to capture a market and capture a patient population. Got it. Those hospital systems and institutions buy vaccines at a wholesale price point in bulk. And so if I'm some huge hospital institution, I won't name names because I don't want to get sued. If I'm some huge hospital system and I'm going to buy $5 million in vaccines this year, and I know I can make it $10 million, it's a $5 million revenue stream, right? I build in compliance programs that incentivize my pediatricians to make sure that they have a certain compliance schedule. And so you bonus your employees for compliance.

• 1:15:57Speaker 04

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• 1:16:23Speaker 02

  But indirectly, what you're really bonusing them for is revenue because they're generating revenue. And this is all going to come out because I'm helping several states sue these various institutions to uncover this. And we have the whistleblowers and all of this to prove it. And it's the same model I showed you earlier with the PBM. So it's a little bit different. Vaccines aren't typically controlled by the PBM because they're earlier in the stage of care and they're not a continual revenue source like a prescription drug. But the vaccines are purchased in bulk by hospital systems that are usually the ones administering this at birth. And so then your clinician is trying to keep you, you know, whether it's the birth schedule, or then you get to the pediatric practice, they

• 1:17:07Speaker 02

  want to make sure they keep you on schedule. And I'm not here to say, like what I've learned with the pediatricians is they mean well, but they were born into this system where they are candidly, I don't know, they're just brainwashed. They're brainwashed to believe that this is real, that we need this, oh my God, if we don't give this kid Hep B shot, like, he's gonna die, or she's, no, they're not. Is your child abusing intravenous drugs or having sex the day they're born? If both parents don't have Hep B, and the child's not going to be exposed to dirty needles or sexual intercourse, why are we giving them a Hep B vaccine? And it's the plethora of all those vaccines combined, there are, regardless of what you're told, there are always risks, rewards for every medication on the market.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  And then you take it and you put it in the tiniest of humans, when they're at the highest risk, when they're the most susceptible, and you bombard their immune system with a huge amount of foreign substances, including metal contaminants, aluminum, all sorts of things that are in these vaccines, even at the most stringent levels, there's still contaminants and aluminum-based products in these injections, and all of that leads to an immune response, an inflammatory response, issues with their absorption rate of certain vitamins that are important in brain development. And that's partially why this administration is questioning, is there a correlation or causation with autism? And it's to be determined.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  And we're going to see as the more and more data comes out.

• 1:18:39Danny Jones?

  Well, it's crazy. Like, it's interesting. You've used the term brainwash to describe some of the people that have were born into this system like pediatric, like good, they could be, you know, good people who mean well. But when I question this stuff to my, because I have kids and I bring them in to get their checkups and the pediatricians are constantly like, how many, are we getting the shots today? Are we getting the shots today? And they, they know when I walk in that they're not getting shots, but they keep pestering me about it. And when they, when I have to try to explain to them why they look at me like I'm the brainwashed one. Like I'm the psycho, brainwashed kook, right? That's not wanting to give my kid however many, what is it 70 something vaccines they're supposed to get before they're like six or something?

• 1:19:20Speaker 02

  It just keeps growing.

• 1:19:22Danny Jones?

  Over 70 vaccines are on the schedule. And even when my, when my latest daughter was born, they were like, looking at me like I had three heads because I was opting out of this hepatitis B vaccine. And then a month later, it comes out, thanks to Bobby Kennedy, the CDC no longer recommends the hepatitis B vaccine. But I'm sure there's like hospitals, like you were explaining, those vertically integrated healthcare corporations that have the hospitals and the healthcare clinics and the pediatricians under their wing. That if your baby is born in their hospital, they're still gonna probably push all that stuff on you, right?

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. And it's even the same with the flu shot.

• 1:20:02Danny Jones?

  It's just.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  The flu shot is vertically integrated at every hospital system too. And every rep that goes into that hospital system is told, hey, you're not allowed to come in here unless you get the flu shot. We're giving flu shots downstairs if you want to go get one.

• 1:20:11Danny Jones?

  So, so even like, I've seen a lot of positive things go through the FDA recently, through like, through Bobby Kennedy. Like recommending, not recommending these Hep B vaccines. Is there, when it comes to the incentive, like that top down incentive for the providers to get all of those vaccines used up by their patients?

• 1:20:38Danny Jones?

  Is there any effect to that system at all? Like, is there, is there gonna be any sort of like pushback against that? To where they're not gonna be legally allowed to do that?

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  Not that I'm aware of. I think the main thing is you're giving, and this is where people get fanatical about this.

• 1:20:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  Your insurance and this entire system will still allow you to get the vaccines. If that is your choice for your child and you want them to have every single vaccine that used to be on the schedule, you're still allowed to do that.

• 1:21:12Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  Nobody's stopping you from doing that. What they did was build a safety net that allows the people who don't believe in this model, who question this model, especially after what we saw with the mRNA vaccines and COVID.

• 1:21:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  Like, do we trust this system? And do I want to put this little child through this?

• 1:21:32Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  Or am I skeptical on things like the Hep B vaccine? Like, I don't think anyone's arguing that there's not tremendous value in vaccines. But when you give the keys to the castle over to industry and you turn a blind eye, you will see time and time and time again that ultimate cat power comes ultimate corruption. You cannot allow these people to operate without checks and balances. I say you have to keep honest people honest.

• 1:22:00Danny Jones?

  Right, well, like, will they? Cause right now, if you, if we don't continue the vaccine schedule with our kids, they can kick us out, right? They don't have to see us anymore.

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. I know the state of Texas is actually, and I don't know if other states are gonna follow suit, the state of Texas is attempting to make that illegal.

• 1:22:17Danny Jones?

  That should be illegal.

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  At the state level.

• 1:22:18Danny Jones?

  A hundred percent should be illegal.

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  Because they do not wanna allow clinicians to ban a child from a practice, to force that child to get vaccinated, because in reality, there is a financial incentive for that institution.

• 1:22:30Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  And I'm not saying that that's what the pediatrician's driving factor is. My experience with pediatricians is they were born and raised in that system and they are blind believers in academia. And when you talk, it's the same thing you and I talked about with pyramids, with anything, like, the academic- Struggle to break that dogma.

• 1:22:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:51Speaker 02

  I mean, look, look, let's go back to the hormones. It was seven years ago by now that I was on Rogan talking about how we were misled with the Women's Health Initiative. We were misled with men's testosterone. The FDA, who stood behind all that shit for the last 60 years in the Women's Health Initiative for the last 20 something years, came out, under this administration, under leaders like Marty Makary and Bobby Kennedy, and they finally told the American people the truth. All of that was wrong. It was all wrong, and we're changing our protocols, and we're changing our way of doing this. And we now are recommending that women should absolutely not be scared of estrogen.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  And men should not be scared of testosterone. And there is immense value in treating that. And here's why that's important. It's not just a statement. Regulatory landscape changes reality. Because primary cares in America wouldn't prescribe a testosterone. A primary care in America was scared to put a woman on estrogen. Because they were told that it was the boogeyman. And they are rule followers by nature. It's their license at risk. So I understand and I have empathy and compassion for how difficult that job is. And the world is shifting under that clinician's feet every fucking day. And they're just doing their best. Like, there was a study done from Harvard. Do you know how long they estimate it takes before what a clinician learned in medical school

• 1:24:19Speaker 02

  is antiquated? In this new evolving world, 18 months. By the time you get out of medical school, the world's changed so much that everything you learned is almost antiquated.

• 1:24:31Danny Jones?

  I heard Huberman talking about this on a podcast with Rick Rubin. It was Huberman, Rick Rubin, and Jack Cruz. It was a fucking little electric podcast. And he was, I think Huberman was saying, this guy Eddie Wang, right? We've talked, I always forget if his last name's Wang or Huang or something like that. Anyways, he's like a neurosurgeon at Stanford. And he was saying that like 80 to 90% of the medical literature is outdated or proven wrong now. It's Eddie Chang.

• 1:25:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:10Danny Jones?

  And this is like one of the world's top neurosurgeons. So if it's like that in neurosurgery, imagine what it is down the chain with everything else.

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:20Danny Jones?

  It's just because it's like this rigid institution.

• 1:25:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it is, it's tough. And I would like to think that it's benign, like that the the I would like, I would wish that I could tell you that I believed that it was inadvertent. And I'm not saying it's not inadvertent or accidental for the clinician. But there are forces at work here, at play here, that are pushing agendas. And one example I can give you is the Women's Health Initiative. Like I told you, I was a drug rep right when that launched. And even though I sold Cialis, my secondary drug was an osteoporosis drug called Avista. Who needs osteoporosis medications? Women who are postmenopausal, who are not on estrogen. So who were some of the major funders and pushers and backers

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  of the Women's Health Initiative that terrified women away from going on estrogen? The big pharmaceutical companies that had the most to gain by a woman not being on estrogen. And instead, now she has to go on an osteoporosis med. And so there was osteo, so there was a brand called Fosamax, made by a company called Merck. There was a brand called Avista, made by Eli Lilly. These became blockbuster drugs because you got rid of the estrogen. You got rid of the silver bullet that was preventing the cascade effect of decline. Now they go on an anti-estrogen, I mean, on a osteoporosis drug. But that doesn't fix the hot flashes.

• 1:26:45Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  So now you got to put them on a hot flash drug. And now they're on a hot flash drug and an osteoporosis drug. And now they're having hot flashes, osteoporosis, vaginal dryness, no sex drive. All of these other issues, now they're depressed, now they're on antidepressants. And now it's this cascade. And then you can rapidly see, how did they get on four or more prescription drugs? Right? Because we've now built a system that has cut off the lifeline for these women. And it was a tragedy. And it happened, and it was real. And it was the same thing with testosterone. It became dogma, that dogma was manipulated and utilized. And it wasn't until the 90s, when Big Pharma decided it was going to sell testosterone. When you were asking about that earlier, Pfizer launched a testosterone cream into the market that changed everything.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  And that's when all of a sudden, they started looking and going, wait a second. This study is kind of bullshit. We, what are we doing here? And it took 30 years for that. Now, I mean, not even longer than that. It's that was, that was in 1997, I think. So we're literally talking almost 30 years before the FDA changed its stance on testosterone.

• 1:27:50Danny Jones?

  That's scary.

• 1:27:51Speaker 02

  To match the data.

• 1:27:53Danny Jones?

  Explain to me what you've been doing, because you've been working with Bobby Kennedy, right? As far as like pushing these peptides, trying to get these, fighting for the peptides.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:05Danny Jones?

  And you've kind of like been helping him and educating him because he can't pay, he can't pay attention to all this stuff. There's too much stuff going on. Um, I know there was a lot of, uh, there was a lot of like skepticism about Bobby Kennedy before the election happened, like even leading up to when he was trying to get confirmed. Right? Like there was people like the Callie Means and, and his sister Casey, who were going on Tucker Carlson, going on Rogan, talking about the hyper-processed foods. And because, I mean, Bobby has historically been known for the guy who wrote the books about the vaccines, who called out Fauci. He was like the vaccine guy. A lot of people labeled him as this conspiracy theorist. And, um, you know,

• 1:28:50Danny Jones?

  right before he was getting confirmed, he kind of, he kind of like wasn't talking about vaccines. Now it's all about hyper-processed foods. So like people were like, I had a, I did a debate on this podcast with, I don't know if you saw it, it was, uh, Callie Means and Jack Cruz. And he was like, what's going on? He's like, what, what is this pushback to the, people were thinking that

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  I saw it.

• 1:29:14Danny Jones?

  The vaccine companies had gotten to Bobby.

• 1:29:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:16Danny Jones?

  Right? And that's the only reason Bobby was gonna get through.

• 1:29:19Speaker 02

  That was political strategy because look what happened. The vaccine schedule did get changed.

• 1:29:23Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  Right? Because in a moment like that, you don't want to fight, that you, you don't want to pick the biggest bully in the, in the, in the courtyard and punch him in the face when you're in the middle of going through what you're, he was gonna go through. Yeah. And so I think it was a strategic move that made great political sense.

• 1:29:38Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:29:39Speaker 02

  Stay silent on a topic that could be polarizing. Give yourself time. Live to fight another day. And the plan worked because now Secretary Kennedy has been able to fix the vaccine schedule and bring it back to the right to choose, right? That's what's crazy about all that. To me, if you want to vaccinate your child, vaccinate your child.

• 1:29:59Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:29:59Speaker 02

  All Secretary Kennedy.

• 1:30:01Danny Jones?

  Smoke a cigarette, but know what the fuck it is, right?

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  Yes, and all Secretary Kennedy has done is provide a pathway for people to have what option they think is best for them and their personal situation.

• 1:30:14Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  That's it, and get rid of the mandates.

• 1:30:16Danny Jones?

  If you're trying to get, I completely understand. I think any rational thinker could understand, any reasonable person can see. If you want to get through, get into, initiate into this system, this political system where you're surrounded by people whose pockets are lined by pharmaceutical companies, you're not going to get through the door saying vaccines need to be abolished.

• 1:30:38Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:30:39Danny Jones?

  And made illegal because.

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  Because you also got to think, you've got to get through all these other politicians and these politicians have been lobbied and these politicians have been indoctrinated into a system that they believe in.

• 1:30:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:30:48Speaker 02

  And all the things we talked about, like, like I said, so many people go, it's not FDA approved, bad. It is FDA approved, good.

• 1:30:54Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:30:55Speaker 02

  And it's not that black and white. It is not that binary. It's not zero or one. It's both in every instance.

• 1:31:03Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  What is the tool in the tool belt? What is the patient? What is this, what is unique to this individual? It should be a choice. I am a huge proponent of freedom of choice. It is your choice. It is your job to take care of your body and your family. And I've, I've listened to Cali take bullets over focusing on food and they say he ignored Big Pharma and he did this and he did that, and it's just not true. I think Cali is trying to shoot the alligator that's closest to the boat. And my experience with Cali Means and Casey Means is they are stewards of the American people and that they're fighting for truth. And Cali and I have collaborated on a lot of different things and worked together. And his focus and his, his history is in the food beverage industry, right?

• 1:31:48Speaker 02

  And so he's intimately familiar with the tactics.

• 1:31:51Danny Jones?

  He was a lobbyist for that stuff, right?

• 1:31:52Speaker 02

  Correct, for Coca-Cola. And so he's, he knows where the bodies are buried. He knows the secret to the game and he knows how corrupt it is.

• 1:32:00Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  And I'm sure he broke down for you how most of the big food companies are now nothing more than shills that, that were acquired by the big tobacco industry.

• 1:32:10Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  And they implemented that same lobbying and that same strategy in that sector. But if you look at what's actually happening at this point in time. Whatever Callie and Bobby did was right because not only have they freed up the freedom of choice on vaccines, we've already began to overhaul the food system. There was an announcement made, again with the food pyramid, and they flipped it upside down and everyone's like, "Well, that's not that big of a deal." And it's like, "No, but what you don't understand is this isn't just a guideline." Right. This guideline and framework is literally what influences school food programs, our welfare food programs, our governmental payer programs, our military food programs, and it establishes precedent. And that precedent will cascade throughout the rest of the United

• 1:32:55Speaker 02

  States. And what we feed our children in schools will lead to the diet, lifestyle, and behaviors they carry into adulthood. And when we were feeding children ultra-processed foods and cokes, and most of food stamps were being spent on soft drinks, which is nothing more than diabetes in liquid form. They're still doing that at my kid's school. Are they really? Yeah. It's so crazy. I testified in Texas against, uh, for the, for the food bill, the Maha food bill. And literally in my testimony, the lady opens a Coke and goes In the mic? Right into the mic and takes her drink. And I was trying to explain to them, "Do you know what, like, let's just put all your ego aside. Put this as like, this is a battle

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  between me and you. Let's just look at it pragmatically. The difference between a chronically ill, dying human being of diabetes and a healthy human being is less than a teaspoon of sugar in the blood at a time. Do you know how much sugar is in one soft drink? Eight teaspoons. Teaspoons or tablespoons? It may even be tablespoons. Eight. And now you're giving it to a child who is not a full man, not a full grown woman, a small human, consuming eight times what would be considered catastrophic in their bloodstream

• 1:34:18Speaker 02

  at one time. And that's assuming that child only drinks one of those a day. And you wonder why we're chronically ill, chronically obese, and chronically dealing with diabetes and metabolic disease. Right. It's, it's insane. There you go. Eight to 10 teaspoons. Eight to 10 teaspoons of sugar in a 12 ounce soda.

• 1:34:39Danny Jones?

  It's crazy. It's equivalent to drinking a can of beer.

• 1:34:41Danny Jones?

  It was unfortunate. The podcast was a little unfortunate the way it went because Callie, he came in with an open mind, I think, willing to learn. And there was two diametrically opposed points of view there. You know, I can also understand Jack's perspective. He deals with patients. His career has been dealing with like life and death situations with one person. Callie's more of a big systems guy.

• 1:35:08Speaker 02

  And here's what's challenging too, though. People try to label those folks like Bobby as anti-vax. He's not anti-vax. He's pro-science, pro-data, pro-checks and balances, pro-not-give-the-keys-to-the-fucking-castle-away-to-an-industry-that-is-sold-chronic-disease-and-perpetuated-chronic-disease. It comes down to a very simple fact. If what we were doing for the last 20 years worked, then why are we more sick than ever, more diabetic than ever, more riddled with cancer than ever, more depressed than ever, more suicides than ever, more deaths of despair than ever? Your system is not working. And at some point, we have to say the emperor wears no clothes. Somebody's got to call a spade a spade. But in politics, unfortunately,

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  you got to play the political game and I think be savvy about it. That's the beauty for me. I'm not a politician. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm just in healthcare, trying to help people find the right way to optimize their health and drive their health span.

• 1:36:06Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:36:07Speaker 02

  And so I can, I don't have to hold back. But I think in politics, sometimes you have to horse trade.

• 1:36:11Danny Jones?

  Yes, definitely. Now, explain what was go- what, what were you doing in regards to, there was something you were talking about in regards to the combination of the IGF-1 drugs and, or IGF and the GLP's together?

• 1:36:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of the things that we've seen in a cash pay practice is there are other peptides and their synergistic effects, right? And so the GLP-1s, when microdosed, can be extremely beneficial in reducing body fat without impacting lean muscle, lean muscle mass or bone mineral density, right? And one of the reasons that people begin to lose lean muscle mass is they have a hard time eating enough protein because their appetite has crashed. And a lot of the times, that's because the commercially available dosage of a GLP-1 is just too much for them. And so in our practice, in the ways well practice, the vision is more-

• 1:37:07Speaker 02

  You can always go up. You should start slow, methodically work that patient up to a dosage that begins to slightly suppress their appetite. But then there's a synergistic effect of adding something like an IGF LR3, which is going to be on board to help improve lean muscle mass, help boost metabolism. Boost your appetite too, right? It does. And it causes an increase in your hunger. And so it gives us this hybrid. And what we've seen is a microdose of a GLP-1 combined with an IGF, or even in male patients with testosterone. Like a lot of men, you're going to increase protein synthesis. And so now you're absorbing more of the protein, even if you're not eating as much of the protein. So testosterone has a direct correlation to protein synthesis.

• 1:37:52Speaker 02

  So you have to eat more? Well, you don't even, yes, the goal is to maintain protein while cutting out all the stuff like the cokes and the sugars and all that. And where I do see a huge benefit with these GLP-1s is it does reduce dopamine response. And so a patient who was getting that dopamine signal from drinking a coke is going to drink that coke and not really get that. But the problem with that is too, those patients that are on too high of a dose of a GLP-1, lose so much appetite, they have a hard time eating that steak, or eating that chicken, or eating that protein source. And it's crucial to preserve lean muscle mass. Because body composition, I don't know if you know who Gabrielle Lyons is? Yeah. Yeah, she's brilliant. One of the things Gabrielle Lyons talks about is, we're not

• 1:38:36Speaker 02

  only overweight, we're under muscled. And so, part of our issue as Americans is we're not consuming enough protein per day to maintain lean muscle mass. And so think of it like a furnace. If I add muscle, every, every pound of muscle I add to your frame is me throwing another log on the fire. It's another log on the metabolic fire that raises your state of thermogenesis and raises your metabolic rate, which means you can eat more calories. And so so many women especially, are focused on just losing fat, that they forget, there's just as much benefit, if not more benefit, in gaining muscle. And so... You and I talked before this about my friend Jelly Roll.

• 1:39:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:21Speaker 02

  So many people think that Jelly Roll is on a GLP-1 and.

• 1:39:24Danny Jones?

  It's because people have just become used to it now. Like so many people are on GLP-1. Like I was telling you, I was like, anyone I see who like loses a lot of fat quick.

• 1:39:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:33Danny Jones?

  My, my bullshit detectors go up like, is that motherfucker on GLP-1?

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  I can tell you a hundred percent. And I even said this to Men's Health Magazine in the interview they did about his weight transformation. I said, if there's one fucking person in the world that has a lot to gain about saying GLP-1s and he did a GLP-1, we compound GLP-1s. I own a pharmacy that makes GLP-1s. I own a clinic that utilizes and prescribes GLP-1s when appropriate. Even with all that, I tell people, you don't need a GLP-1. It's a tool in the tool belt. It doesn't mean that it's the only tool in the tool belt.

• 1:40:07Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:40:07Speaker 02

  And oftentimes there are other things we can do to optimize your health. Like putting on lean muscle mass, increasing metabolic rate.

• 1:40:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:40:16Speaker 02

  Helping you feel energized and ready, reducing estrogen levels, reducing inflammation, reducing water retention, upping your energy level. And all of that comes back to you can't do that if you don't look under the hood. If you don't do comprehensive blood work and you go into a primary care and they don't run your blood work or ask you if you're willing to do a DEXA, don't do a GLP-1.

• 1:40:41Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:40:41Speaker 02

  If they don't talk to you about diet, lifestyle, nutrition, do not take a GLP-1 from that doctor. I'm just telling you, like taking a GLP-1 without talking about diet, lifestyle, nutrition is like brushing your teeth while eating fucking Oreos. It makes no fucking sense, man. You're going to have to refine your diet. Even on a GLP-1, if you don't, you're just, you're literally chemically anorexic. You're just creating chemical anorexia. It's a chemical straitjacket where you're not hungry. It doesn't mean that the molecule is bad. It means that the person advising you on the molecule is incompetent. And there are unfortunately a lot of doctors in this country that are reaching for a GLP-1

• 1:41:24Speaker 02

  before they've ever asked the question, before they've ever got to know you as a patient, before they've ever uncovered the root cause, before they ever dove into you at the biological level. There is no value in that. And so when, when Jay came into us, the first thing we did was let's do a DEXA. Let's look at where you're at. Let's look at your body fat. Who? Jelly Roll. Okay, okay. So let's, let's get through all of these diagnostic tools. Let's do a full blood work. Let's look at you. And he broke this down on Joe, so I'm not sharing anything HIPAA. And he's also given me permission to talk about it in the public setting. But the first thing my clinician told him is, we've got to get your testosterone up. We've got to get your estrogen down and we've got to reduce your inflammation. And we've got to get your insulin under control.

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  If we do those things, we never have to reach for a GLP-1. We can do all of those things and we can help you with diet, lifestyle, nutrition. We can get strategic and you need to exercise and you need to be in motion. And he was already doing the exercise and the diet. And all we did was try and optimize the hormones, optimize the overall biomarkers and put him in a position of homeostasis where the weight would fall off. And Jelly did the rest. The guy worked his ass off. He got up every day. He started walking. I told this, I think I told you the story before. He, he said he had lied to himself and his family time and time again and said, tomorrow I'm going to start. Tomorrow I'm going to start. Tomorrow I'm going to start. And after he came in, he gets back home to Nashville and he says, tomorrow I'm going to start.

• 1:42:53Speaker 02

  And he wakes up and it's pouring fucking rain. And he told the story. He said, I, I sat there and I thought, I don't give a shit. I'm going to do it today. And he walked, I think he said, three miles in the fucking pouring rain. And when he gets back up the steps and he comes up this long hill to get back into his house, his wife and his daughter were there cheering him on. And he just got in there and started crying. Because he finally stopped lying to himself and lying to them. And he became a man of his word again and he never looked back. And it's like, a drug is not going to do that, man. Everything starts with you. Everything. And I don't want to sell somebody a medicine or a drug. I want to sell you long-term solutions that help you drive your health span. And that's going to come from diet, lifestyle, nutrition,

• 1:43:36Speaker 02

  and from you having honesty and integrity with yourself on where you are and how you get there. And it's not at the bottom of a pill bottle. Right. It's not. Like, that's just one tool in the tool belt.

• 1:43:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah, man, that's powerful hearing stories like that.

• 1:43:51Speaker 02

  It's awesome.

• 1:43:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that is really awesome. And, you know, also, some people that I've seen that do the start with the GLP ones, that can also be like a catalyst for them to get motivated about everything else. You know, like, once they start to see some sort of physical change happen in the mirror, or like, the needles moving in the right direction, now that can like, be a catalyst to push them off the cliff, to like, go get in the gym to change their diet.

• 1:44:17Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:44:18Danny Jones?

  And to, you know, that, that can be the cascading effect.

• 1:44:21Speaker 02

  And I've said this, I am not anti GLP-1, like, I have seen it change people's lives. I had another, I had another, a friend's wife, who said, "Bring him for the first time, I work at a hospital, for the first time, when everyone's in the lounge eating cookies, or a cake, or it's somebody's birthday, I have enough self-control to walk by it and go, yeah, I don't, I don't want that." And that little win, leads to other little wins. And then you wake up one day, I lived it, I, I fucking lived that, I was 25% body fat, on the cusp of diabetes. And when I finally got my hormones right, weight started coming off. And I was like, oh my god, dude, I may actually be able to be in shape, like, I never thought, I didn't think that was even possible.

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  And I tell so many people this, my goal, and our goal at Ways2Well, is not to be a dictator and dictate to you, take this, do this, do that, no, it's to give you the pros and the cons, and to give you the right information to guide you, and allow you to take sovereignty and autonomy over your health. And how you do that, is you educate a patient, you empower a patient, and you get the fuck out of their way. You don't dictate to a patient, you're not taking this, or you're not, no. When, when somebody comes in and says, "I want a GLP-1," I'm not here to tell you, no, I'm here to give you the answers as to the pros and cons.

• 1:45:43Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:45:43Speaker 02

  If you're a 90, 105-pound girl trying to lose weight for spring break, that is not the molecule you should be reaching for, right? But if you're a 500-pound guy, who's been overweight your whole life,

• 1:45:57Speaker 02

  You shouldn't be scared of a GLP-1. I'm not saying it's your only solution. I'm not saying it's the only way out of where you're at. But it's a viable tool and you shouldn't be scared of it if utilized appropriately. But understand, you're still gonna have to do the diet, the lifestyle and the nutrition.

• 1:46:12Danny Jones?

  You just gotta show them the light. Just give them a little glimmer of light and they're gonna wanna go get more sunshine.

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:17Danny Jones?

  You know, and once you see how you feel when you can actually get there is like, it can be astonishing the difference.

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  If you see all the comedians at Rogan's Club and the transformations of all these comedians, like all these comedians were-

• 1:46:28Danny Jones?

  Because he gets them all in ways too well, right?

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  Well, they've all like dialed in their nutrition. They all work out now. And these guys that used to be drinking and partying and putting on weight are now in their 40s and 50s and 60s. And they're waking up and training and they realize their mental acuity is better, their data, their recall, their ability to communicate, their ability to hit that punchline. They're sharper, they're clearer. It's a cascade effect. Winds create winds and momentum creates momentum. And our goal is to create a fucking avalanche.

• 1:46:56Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:57Speaker 02

  Like create an avalanche of winds and it's possible for anyone. The first thing you do when you find yourself in a hole is stop fucking digging.

• 1:47:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:47:04Speaker 02

  And then let's dig you out of there and let's put wins on the board.

• 1:47:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and it can be hard. It can be hard to do because it's like, I mean, it can be like swimming upstream. Because you, we live in this world where we're surrounded by convenience.

• 1:47:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:18Danny Jones?

  You know, fast food, packaged, uh, processed foods everywhere. I mean, I'm, I, I am constantly trying to fight the urge to eat my kids leftovers. You know, leftover peanut butter and jelly laying on the plate, my kids ravioli. I'm like scarfing down the rest of his ravioli or whatever it is. Like it's just nonsense. I'm surrounded by it. And my wife doesn't give a shit about any of the crazy stuff that I do when it comes to health or diet. My wife's just like, do whatever you wanna do. Leave me out of it. You know, she doesn't give a shit. She's gonna eat all the pasta she wants.

• 1:47:49Speaker 02

  That's so funny.

• 1:47:50Danny Jones?

  And, you know, she's in, she's not into any of it, but it's like me living around four people.

• 1:47:58Danny Jones?

  And trying to maintain everything I want to do with my health and like the podcast, it's, it takes an extreme amount of discipline. Um, but the only way, the only reason I'm able to do it is because I've literally felt the difference and it's, it's, it's a game changer.

• 1:48:13Speaker 02

  For me, I, I have been in the pit of despair. Like that's what I call, I'm like, you wake up one day and you go, how did I get here? And like, I, the hill's so high, the, the mountain's so tall. I don't think I can get out of this. And you just go, God, man, it's going to take me years to get this weight off. Like, and it feels hopeless. And like, in that instance, you just gotta take one step. Don't look at the whole journey. Just take that step. The journey of a thousand miles starts with one step, right? And you take that first step and then you wake up the next day and you take the next step. And it's not about being perfect. It's about being better. And wins will lead to wins and momentum will lead to momentum. But I can say, if you're optimized, if your

• 1:48:57Speaker 02

  hormones are optimized, if your health is optimized, if you have the tools and resources to understand, you know, cause even for me growing up, now the world's changed a lot. And I think there's so much data and resources and knowledge. But my parents thought that eating like wheat bread with bologna was healthier and, and Miracle Whip was healthy, right? Cause we're not eating white bread and we're eating Miracle Whip. And like, that's how crazy it is. They were drinking Diet Cokes instead of Cokes, right? And they were eating Sun Chips instead of regular chips. It's all still ultra-processed foods with no nutritional value, no macros. So you come out two hours later and you're hungry again. Well, it's because you didn't feed your body anything of value or sustenance.

• 1:49:39Speaker 02

  And like, it's amazing. And I'm not saying the world's that naive today, but growing up in Texas in the eighties, this is how naive we were to health. And the world's evolving and the tools are evolving and the ability and accessibility to healthy food is evolving. And I think that's part of what this new administration is doing, is they're trying to educate the masses and to change the food programs in schools and throughout our existence to make these things more accessible and more affordable and more approachable and to give people the tools to prevent metabolic chronic disease.

• 1:50:12Danny Jones?

  Hold that thought. I gotta take a pee real quick. Be right back. Explain like what you've been doing as far as like going everywhere and testifying and talking, doing meetings with the FDA and with RFK and all that stuff. What's that all been like?

• 1:50:26Speaker 02

  Man, it's it's this surreal like domino effect. Um, you know, Tulsi Gabbard, I don't know if you know who that is. She's awesome and she's a client. She's become a friend. And one day I was just telling her about all the crazy things going on around peptides. This was like two years ago and she looks at me and she goes, Brigham, you're gonna have to get political. And I was just thinking, I don't ever want to get political and I don't even know how to get political. And this is where I go back to the how we started that Steve Jobs quote, when you look back at your life and you connect the dots, you'll realize you were always exactly where you were supposed to be. A week later, I get a phone call from Bobby Kennedy's team. And they said, hey, Secretary Kennedy heard your podcast with Rogan.

• 1:51:10Speaker 02

  We want you to to fly out or come out and we're gonna be in Dallas. Do you have time to come out and talk to him about some of the corruption that you saw as a med device rep and a drug rep and the PBMs and the insurance companies? And some of the stuff you broke down on Joe. So I'm like, how ironic is this? Like, you just told me this and then a week later this happens. So I get in my truck, I drive to Dallas. There's all this Secret Service shit and they text him that I'm there and they wave me back. This is when he was the presidential candidate. And I sit down with him and the guy rolls up his sleeves. It's funny because I'm in like, I'm always in like jeans and cowboy boots and like a fucking T-shirt. And he's in a suit and he just takes his jacket off and throws it up and rolls his sleeves up and it's super casual.

• 1:51:55Speaker 02

  And he's like, okay, so break down for me the PBMs. We go over all this for like 30 minutes and I just explained to him what's going on with peptides and compounding pharmacies and FDA lobby. And then a week later, they message and go, hey, Secretary Kennedy wants, well, he wasn't the Secretary then, yeah, Bobby Kennedy wants you to do his podcast. So then I did his podcast where we deep, deep dove into it. And then he asked me to come up and meet with him and go elaborate again. And while I'm meeting with him, I get a text from Callie Means saying, hey, do you want to testify in front of the Senate about all the stuff you talked about on Rogan? We're doing this new, new Senate testimony thing where we're going to educate the Senate on the issues with healthcare. You could be like an industry insider. We're going to have doctors. We're going to have this. We're going to have that. As I'm on the hike with Secretary, who's now Secretary Kennedy,

• 1:52:40Speaker 02

  I mentioned it. And he's like, well, can I come? And so this is so surreal. We end up, and then Jillian Michaels was on the hike with us. I don't know if you know who that is. Oh, yeah. A fitness influencer and healthcare advocate. We're all like, can we all three come? And Callie's like, yeah, I'd love to have you three. So we all go and testify in front of the Senate. And then it became, that was like this moment that became known as like the Maha Movement. It was Bonnie Hari, the food babe. It was Alex Clark, a podcaster who was focused on women's health and a lot of things going on in women's health. It was Courtney Swan, who was focused on glyphosate and the broken food system. And we all just put together our

• 1:53:24Speaker 02

  little sliver of knowledge of why the system's broke and why chronic disease is skyrocketing. And then some other names you may recognize like Marty Makary, who's now the head of the FDA. It was Casey Means, Callie Means, now Secretary Kennedy. And at the time, we left that and it went viral and literally got picked up as the woo-woo movement. They called it woo-woo, non-doctors up here trying to, and I'm like, non-doctors? We had a Harvard educated doctor. We had a Stanford educated doctor. We had two Stanford doctors, Callie Means, or sorry, Casey Means and Marty Makary, brilliant people who have been in that ecosystem for decades,

• 1:54:07Speaker 02

  who are breaking down where the trials and tribulations and pitfalls are. So then jump forward, Secretary Kennedy ends up becoming the Secretary of Health and Human Services. And at that point, it was more just reaching out to him and saying, hey, can I bend your ear? Like, here's what's going on. And to that guy's credit,

• 1:54:28Speaker 02

  I thought when he got in that position, he would do what most politicians would do, and I'd never hear from him again. And I can say, I have not met a person with that level of honesty and integrity and fearlessness, like fearless courageousness. I have no dog in this fight. I'm not fucking like, you know what I mean? Like, if I thought he was full of shit, I'd be on here the first going, that guy's full of shit. He literally is doing what he thinks is right. And he is fighting for truth. And he has helped fight battles that no other politician in their right mind would fight. Who is going to help small little mom and pop compounding pharmacies and go against the giant machine that is Big Pharma? The answer's

• 1:55:10Speaker 02

  not a single frickin' person other than Bob, Secretary Kennedy, and, you know, now Callie Means, and Marty Makary, and some folks that have been given an opportunity to usher in a new world of health for Americans. And they've put their money where their mouth is. Like, if you look at what they've done with vaccines, if you look at what they've done with the food pyramid, if you look at what they've done with hormone optimization, if you look at time and time again, when given the choice to do the right thing, or the thing that benefits industry, they've chose the right thing. And so I'm, I'm very optimistic that the future for healthcare could be bright. We are hopefully going to open the pathway to provide affordability

• 1:55:51Speaker 02

  and accessibility for peptides to the American people again, a regulatory pathway that will provide checks and balances, and allow patients' accessibility to peptides again, which will allow us tools and, and options to help drive health span, items that were stripped away from us during the Biden administration, those 17 FOIA requests that I've talked about.

• 1:56:14Speaker 02

  Right? There's a reason that the legacy FDA hasn't responded to those FOIA requests. And that reason is, they either don't like the data they have because it's damning for them, and positive for us, or there is no data.

• 1:56:28Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:56:29Speaker 02

  It's one of those two things, which either one of those means they made a decision based on industry and not on patient outcomes. And this administration is the first administration in my lifetime that I have ever seen be willing. Again, I'm not a politician, I'm just a guy trying to figure out solutions to problems.

• 1:56:46Danny Jones?

  What has the reception been, or what has the? How open have the people at the FDA, like those legacy folks been when you're having meetings with them? Have they been open minded? Have they been, what's it been like?

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  You know, it's interesting, is it is really hit or miss, you know? And again, it's, it's the same thing I say with pediatricians. It's, it's not, I don't think, I look for the best in people and I really do believe most people are doing what they think is right. But if you're given bad information, you're going to make bad decisions. And if you've been indoctrinated into a system that has told you since its inception that you're right and that you just follow the science, but the science is handed to you by one party and that one party controls the narrative and that one party is the giant corporations that have the most to benefit by skewing your lens on a subject matter, then you shouldn't be surprised when you wake up one day and you find yourself way out in

• 1:57:42Speaker 02

  left field and you have to question everything you've ever been shown. Because I feel like most of the folks I've met at the FDA are pretty open, honest and receptive. They are trying their best to get it right, but it's also a legal landmine. I mean, it is a legal, it is a field, field full of landmines. And if you make one wrong move as a political appointee or decision maker, your whole career is over and you're navigating people who congressmen, congresswomen, senators, who have vested interests in protecting their parties that are backing their campaigns, right?

• 1:58:25Speaker 02

  And when big pharmaceutical companies are banging on the desk of a senator and saying, oh my God, you're going to allow these guys to put dangerous peptides into the hands of Americans and what is going to happen? And then those politicians are out there going, if, if Secretary Kennedy does this or Marty does this, he's going to make it the Wild West. You guys are going to be viewed as the Wild West, the guys who deregulated peptides. And my rebuttal to that is, That is absolute bullshit. Like, and I can tell you why. What we're asking for is for you to take it from being the Wild West. You, right now, what the FDA has done is the same catastrophic series of events that happened with the opioid crisis. They put something

• 1:59:08Speaker 02

  on the market, they allowed it to be in the market, and then they pulled it from the market. And then they forced everyone to black and gray market. So everyone in the opioid crisis turned to buying drugs from Mexico and heroin from black market dealers. Right. And it created catastrophic deaths and chaos. The same thing, as crazy as it sounds, occurred with peptides. As soon as the FDA banned legitimate compounders and clinicians from prescribing and utilizing doctor-supervised, doctor-monitored, doctor-prescribed, FDA-inspected, legitimate compounding pharmacies that are under the guidelines and rules and regulations

• 1:59:50Speaker 02

  of the FDA and the state and the federal rules that are ISO-certified with chemists and pharmacists providing efficacious products that are validity, validation-tested, sterility-tested, under the most stringent of guidelines, you took that, you threw it out the fucking window, and everyone just started buying shit online. Right now, today in America. Right. Four out of five peptides filled are filled through gray and black market sources that have never been inspected by the FDA, that have no human safety studies, that have no validation testing, that have no contamination testing. We actually brought, my buddy Ryan Hummiston, he's a YouTuber, he went out and we ordered peptides from all of these different

• 2:00:32Speaker 02

  companies. Ninety percent of these peptides either have contaminants or are not the dosages they say they are. You tested them? Yes. And some of them are more than they are, some of them are less than they are, some of them are underdosed, some of them are overdosed. That's irrelevant. My point is, you can be the administration.

• 2:00:51Speaker 02

  That provides affordable, accessible, preventative care to the masses. That doesn't turn America into the Wild West, but turns America into one of the leading nations in the world for preventative care. And you can do this through a regulatory pathway that allows patients to make decisions alongside board certified clinicians. And you can put a prescription and a system in place that protects the American consumer. Because right now, it's a fucking train wreck, man. It is a train wreck. And I own compounding pharmacy and I own a telemedicine company and I employ clinicians and I employ pharmacists. Most of what we, almost everything we prescribe, the only peptides we prescribe are the ones

• 2:01:36Speaker 02

  that the FDA allows us to make today. But there are over 19 peptides that were banned that are now gray and black market, like BPC.

• 2:01:43Danny Jones?

  They let you, but they're not approved, they're not officially approved.

• 2:01:46Speaker 02

  Correct. There's a difference between being an FDA approved drug and an FDA exempt modality.

• 2:01:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:01:52Speaker 02

  Right? And so, the difference is, we haven't put it through a double-blind placebo-controlled trial. What, the question is, is it safe? And the answer is, they are safe. We were utilizing these other 19 peptides for almost a decade. Like, it's not like this was new stuff. We had been using them for a decade and that's why everyone was like, what? Overnight, the FDA banned all these things? Why? And then the FDA statement at the time, and again, this is the previous administration, this is not this current administration. Their answer was, we're worried about safety. Well, where's your safety data?

• 2:02:24Danny Jones?

  They haven't shown it.

• 2:02:25Speaker 02

  And now 17 FOIA requests later, I'm still asking them, where's your safety data?

• 2:02:28Danny Jones?

  See, this is my, this is one of my biggest concerns, is all of the progress that's happening right now, under the new administration, what's gonna happen when the next administration comes along? The next regime comes along and they decide to clean house? That's my biggest fear. Not just with the healthcare stuff, with everything, with the censorship stuff.

• 2:02:48Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:02:48Danny Jones?

  The internet, you know, the internet censorship, what happens with YouTube, you know, all of that crap.

• 2:02:54Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 2:02:54Danny Jones?

  What, what are you?

• 2:02:55Speaker 02

  I'm worried too, and that's why I'm attempting to try and establish permanent regulatory pathways. Right? For, for, for my niche, for my area of expertise, which is healthcare. My big hot buttons and what I hope and I pray that we can get done under the new leadership of Marty and Secretary Kennedy is can we open a regulatory pathway to allow Americans to have accessible care, accessibility to care like stem cells and peptides and hormone optimization and large language models and artificial intelligence and all of these various modalities and tools that have historically been denied, obstructed, or put out of a marketplace.

• 2:03:32Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:03:33Speaker 02

  And this is not conspiratorial and I'm not trying to be hyperbolic. It comes down to when you dig and you peel back the layers to the onion. Nine out of 10 times, the reason it's being obstructed is because of industry. It is because the insurance companies or the big pharmaceutical cartels have a vested interest in suppressing and preventing these modalities from making it to market.

• 2:03:56Danny Jones?

  Because if they were just allowed to be in the market free and clear, if this, it was a free, open, competitive market, they would be, and, and people get to learn about this stuff through podcasts and, and open media, open communication and dialogue. You guys would provide extreme competition.

• 2:04:14Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:04:15Danny Jones?

  To them.

• 2:04:15Speaker 02

  And that's what you saw. And that's what you've seen over the last year. Why did GLP-1s go from $1,300 a month to now they just made an announcement that you'll be able to buy them for $165 through Trump RX? It was not because big pharma is just good guys.

• 2:04:31Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:04:31Speaker 02

  It's because the pressure became so deafening because patients got used to affordability and accessibility and they realized they could buy them through compounders and it went viral and it was everywhere. And then that opened everyone's mind to peptides. I mean, you can't turn on social media without hearing an athlete or a famous actor or a famous podcaster talking about peptides, talking about hormone optimization, talking about stem cells. The cat's out of the bag. Like, we know, we know. And like even, even with the stem cell space, if we really dig into safety on stem cells, and, and I'm going to testify on this next week at, in the state of Arizona. Every single adverse event that's ever been reported on stem cells has nothing to

• 2:05:16Speaker 02

  do with the product and everything to do with the chain of custody or the chain of command. Like, so what I mean by that is, bad distributors, bad actors, bad storage, improper aseptic technique, bad administration from a clinician, and where does that happen? That happens when you take the guardrails off. That happens when you allow peptides to be bought online. That happens when patients are forced to go to a shady alley to go get a cellular treatment because they think that this guy's got something that they can't get anywhere else, or they go to Mexico, or they go outside the country. And I'm not saying all those places are bad. There's legitimately great clinics in Mexico and outside the United States.

• 2:06:00Speaker 02

  That care should be readily accessible here within the United States, under the jurisdiction and the safety nets that the FDA provides, when the FDA is willing to engage and allow these accessible pathways, right? And so, even today lobbying the FDA, I'm trying to educate the FDA on the differences of the nuance, because you have to understand, whether we're talking an academic from, you know, Stanford or Harvard, or a doctor who's built into an ecosystem, or the FDA, they've got blinders. And the world they know is what does insurance cover? So I have to bring it all back to that. Why do you get FDA approval? You don't just get FDA approval for safety.

• 2:06:44Speaker 02

  You've got to go through FDA trials because you need an indication. Why do you need an indication? Because we wanted a regulatory body that was supposed to be unbiased, that will look at the data objectively and say, yes, this works for diabetes. Why? Because once you have an indication for diabetes, you're now going to make the insurance companies pay for that drug. And so if I'm gonna make insurance companies pay for a drug, if I'm gonna make Medicare, Medicaid, TRICARE pay for a drug, I better damn well prove that it's safe and that it works. That is not the market that I live in. The market I live in is cash pay. I don't bill insurance, I don't bill Medicare, I don't bill Medicaid. I'm not asking taxpayers

• 2:07:29Speaker 02

  to pay for this drug. I am not asking anybody to pay for a peptide other than the person who wants to use the peptide. So you get how this is a different nuance? It's like, it is, it comes down to, does the doctor think this is gonna help you? Yes. Does the patient want to try this? Yes. Does the patient wanna pay cash, their hundred dollar hard earned money, to try this? Yes. Then why in the hell are you stopping them? Right. It's different. I'm not asking, you're not asking me to pay for your meds. That's the fundamental difference in what Big Pharma is doing. Big Pharma is trying to push a drug on the market no matter what, so they can get an indication, so they can bill billions

• 2:08:10Speaker 02

  of dollars and create a market that allows them to continue to daisy chain more product into that market and capture an ecosystem. And this is a fundamental paradigm shift for even legislators and for even regulators. They're like, wait a second, you're not asking me for an insurance code? No. No, this isn't, because as soon as you give it to the insurance companies, they're gonna obstruct it and create a model that they monetize. And it's gonna run up the cost, not down the cost. And if you really wanna drive down the cost, you go cash pay. And you continue to scale and through economies of scale, you make it more affordable. And through competition, people are gonna make peptides cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. And eventually, you're gonna look back and it's gonna be dirt cheap

• 2:08:53Speaker 02

  to get a peptide mailed to your house from an FDA-approved, FDA-inspected, and regulated compounding pharmacy, under the prescription supervision of a clinician. Right. That's what I'm fighting for. I'm paying, I'm fighting for patient solvency and autonomy over their health. Like, I'm literally, like, my message is, let a patient work with a clinician to decide what is best for their health, and I'm asking the federal government to get the fuck out of the way. And to allow that patient to decide what they think is best for their health, alongside a clinician that provides checks and balances and insight.

• 2:09:27Danny Jones?

  Well, how much does this healthcare system, uh, how different is it in other countries like in Europe where they have the socialized medicine?

• 2:09:36Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, they have their own set of challenges. I will say areas that are extremely wealthy, like United Arab Emirates and Dubai.

• 2:09:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:44Speaker 02

  They're all over this stuff. Dude, they're like meccas for peptides, for stem cells. Um, the problem there is like, it's the opposite. They want it to be more like, there's something weird about that world where when you make that kind of money, you, you want everything to be really expensive and exclusive.

• 2:10:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:01Speaker 02

  Does that make sense?

• 2:10:02Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:10:02Speaker 02

  Like, some of the stem cell products that we're doing here for forty-five hundred dollars, they're charging literally over a hundred grand in Dubai.

• 2:10:10Danny Jones?

  That's ridiculous.

• 2:10:10Speaker 02

  And that's crazy. But, but dude, that's the difference. In a free market, if you're a billionaire and you want to pay a hundred thousand dollars for a bag of cellular treatment, and that's your prerogative.

• 2:10:21Danny Jones?

  But did they have this whole regulatory system, this proselytized lobbying system to other countries that you went to?

• 2:10:28Speaker 02

  No, it's different and it varies by state. But the challenge there is everything's paid for by taxpayers, right? And so the same challenge exists. It's like, oh my God, we don't want to let this into the market because this is going to cost us money.

• 2:10:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:40Speaker 02

  And so if it's a cost to the, to the system, it's a challenge to the system, it's a strain to the system.

• 2:10:47Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:10:47Speaker 02

  And so in that system too, you still have folks that are like, we can't let this into the market, you know, or we need more data, we need years and years of studies and science and, uh, all of these things to be able to approve it because it's going to cost taxpayers money.

• 2:11:02Danny Jones?

  Right, right. But they, they like, they're grocery stores. They don't have all the kind of like processed garbage.

• 2:11:07Speaker 02

  That part's a huge difference.

• 2:11:09Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah. They are incentivized to not get people sick.

• 2:11:12Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:11:13Danny Jones?

  On this side over here.

• 2:11:14Speaker 02

  Here's an example. In, in Europe, their glyphosate, their glyphosate exposure is astronomically, ours is actually, our, our level of glyphosate that we allow in the United States is almost three times what they allow in Europe. Three times the acceptable level of what they allow in Europe. And there is an argument that that could be one of the reasons our cancer rates are so much higher in the United States and the reason that it's so much lower in Europe isn't this whole lie that is spun about. Well, we have to have a huge agro industrial complex that produces enough agriculture, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's because they don't dry spray their crops at the end of the of the drying process.

• 2:11:54Speaker 02

  So 90% of our glyphosate exposure comes literally during the last few weeks of how we harvest all of our vegetables and crops. And they could do what's called like dry spray and they dry it out through glyphosate itself, which increases our chemical exposure.

• 2:12:07Danny Jones?

  My wife was just talking to me about this this morning.

• 2:12:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:09Danny Jones?

  She said there were something she saw and she she gets all of her crazy food news through TikTok. And she was saying she saw a TikTok about bread. Something some new news came out about like all of like the top 10 bread manufacturers in the US that you see at any grocery store. They have like an insane amount of glyphosate in them. She's like, we gotta fucking go buy bread from the girl down the street who makes her own bread.

• 2:12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, no, it's nuts. And that's why people go to Europe and they go, I can eat pasta and I can eat things. I don't get inflamed and I don't get swollen and I don't get this. And it's because they aren't putting all these extra ingredients in their food.

• 2:12:41Danny Jones?

  Dude, I can go to Costa Rica and eat pizza every day and I feel like I feel weightless. I feel amazing. I don't feel like I ate pizza here. It's ridiculous.

• 2:12:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. In Europe, I want to say, and I it's been a minute since I've talked about this, so I don't want to, but it's close. There's I think there's 300 approved ingredients in the food system and here there are thousands. There are literally thousands of approved food ingredients in our system.

• 2:13:09Speaker 02

  We this is one of the things that we testified in front of the Senate. My friend, Vani, the food babe, she literally held up and and Jason Carp, they held up a bag of Fruit Loops from the United States. And a bag of Fruit Loops from Canada. And our Fruit Loops are vibrant, bright colors, great, because it's all unnatural food dyes, processed preservatives, extras. Whereas in Canada, they're required to use all natural food dyes. So they're using like fruit based food dyes to dye the food.

• 2:13:38Danny Jones?

  Same company, though.

• 2:13:39Speaker 02

  Same company and they're literally making it in the same factory. And they ship one thing to the American consumer and a different thing to the European and Canadian consumers.

• 2:13:47Danny Jones?

  Oh, that's the difference?

• 2:13:48Speaker 02

  Look at that.

• 2:13:49Danny Jones?

  Oh, my God, dude.

• 2:13:50Speaker 02

  And so I'm not gonna lie, it does look pretty, but at some point.

• 2:13:54Danny Jones?

  We have to inject the marketing into the food itself.

• 2:14:00Speaker 02

  And then, you know, people who are, you know, want to argue against this go, well, it's still cereal and it's unhealthy. I get it.

• 2:14:07Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:14:08Speaker 02

  But there's

• 2:14:08Danny Jones?

  You're making the cigarette a little bit more healthy.

• 2:14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. But at some point, we've got to start creating checks and balances. And that was like what people tried to throw stones at Cali and go, oh, well, they're just doing this and they're, it is a process, man. They haven't even been in power one year. And look at the fundamental change in the food pyramid and the vaccine schedule.

• 2:14:29Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:14:30Speaker 02

  And overall, at the, with, with, with all of our governmental pay programs, your accessibility to soft drinks and cokes and things that have historically

• 2:14:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:39Speaker 02

  consumed most of the dollars.

• 2:14:40Danny Jones?

  It's a big ship. You're not going to turn it in one, you're not going to turn it on a dime like that. It's going to be a slow turn.

• 2:14:45Speaker 02

  And I think a lot of these steps are steps in the right direction.

• 2:14:48Danny Jones?

  Yes, totally.

• 2:14:48Speaker 02

  And just like that person trying to lose weight, it starts with the first step.

• 2:14:52Danny Jones?

  Steve, pull up that thing real quick about the bread that you just had up about Florida. What was that? What date was that?

• 2:14:59Danny Jones?

  2026. Do you still have it or did you close it? Oh, there you go. Recent 2026 testing by the Florida Department of Health found detectable levels of glyphosate in several popular US bread brands with levels ranging from non-detectable to over 191 parts per billion. Many bread, um, many bread residues, they contain, uh, they generally remain below current federal safety limits. Sure they do. So those are the ones.

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, but

• 2:15:29Danny Jones?

  Nature's own. That's the one that we were buying.

• 2:15:35Danny Jones?

  So the glyphosate.

• 2:15:38Speaker 02

  If you look at that though, too, you know, what's crazy is, uh, is, um, same issue that we had with the FDA where a lot of the commissioners of the FDA have gone to work for industry.

• 2:15:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:49Speaker 02

  Four out of the last six heads of the EPA have gone to work for the chemical industries that they were regulating. And so there's so much spit bean swap. There's so much cross pollination. Um, there, there's literally, I broke this down on, um,

• 2:16:03Speaker 02

  Which was it? Was it, uh, there's an email chain that's going back and forth with one of the regulatory bodies where they literally say to industry, uh, if I get this done for you guys, I deserve a medal of fucking honor. And I'm like, dude, this is crazy. Yeah. And so, and then even to this day, I think it's, uh, the CDC is in a building that was gifted to them by Coca-Cola. Yeah. A multi-million dollar building that

• 2:16:33Danny Jones?

  You can't even make this stuff up, dude. This is really dislike, it's like a movie script.

• 2:16:40Speaker 02

  And it just runs so deep, man. It's so hard to like, you just keep trying to break it down, but it's, it's just almost unbelievable. And the more you look, the worse it gets.

• 2:16:50Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And then like, you know, the whole institutional, institu- institu- easy for you to say, institutionalization of this thing. It's not, I mean, it's not even just the, the regulators and the physicians and the hospitals, but I'm sure this stuff's all baked into the universities and the people that are getting their PhDs and their doctorates and stuff too.

• 2:17:12Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, because most of the funding of research is funded by industry. And so like, when you're trying to get a grant or you're trying to get things done, you're going to have to inevitably eat out of the hand of the industry that is asking you to push that agenda. And so it does skew the data. It does skew the incentives. It does make it difficult to have a truly, uh, non-biased study, even if it's coming from one of the academic institutions.

• 2:17:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah, man. It's insane. And what, and what, so what, um, you were talking to me about this crazy stem cell stuff before we did the podcast?

• 2:17:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:50Danny Jones?

  Can we talk about this on the podcast?

• 2:17:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

• 2:17:52Danny Jones?

  So, so explain to me these, these crazy, uh, new stem cells that you're getting from Japan?

• 2:17:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, um,

• 2:17:59Speaker 02

  Okay, so there's a lot of different, so first of all, I'll tell you, I'll explain today in the United States, most people are using umbilical cord derived stem cells. That's kind of like the gold standard today in the US. So healthy birth, healthy mother, pre-planned C-section, you take the discarded afterbirth and from the discarded afterbirth, you can extrapolate out all of these amazing cellular goodies.

• 2:18:21Danny Jones?

  How legit is that stuff?

• 2:18:23Speaker 02

  Oh, it's amazing.

• 2:18:23Danny Jones?

  Because I did that. I got the umbilical cord blood.

• 2:18:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:18:28Danny Jones?

  Is that, is that?

• 2:18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it can be legit. I don't, I mean, but it's also, where did you get it from? Was it cryopreserved? How did they take care of it?

• 2:18:35Danny Jones?

  We paid for it, but I was super skeptical about it.

• 2:18:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:38Danny Jones?

  I was like, we don't know. Some person in a car pulled up in front of the hospital and we handed it to him in a fucking lunchbox.

• 2:18:43Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, you stored yours?

• 2:18:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:46Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:18:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah, just in case, because allegedly, if you do that, you can take the umbilical cord blood and they store it in a bank for you, whatever.

• 2:18:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:52Danny Jones?

  And if you get some crazy like cancer 10 years down the road, you can use that and it'll automatically like fix you. Basically what I understand.

• 2:18:58Speaker 02

  I think it's, I think it's very viable for the future and I think there's no disadvantage in cryobanking your umbilical cord because there's tremendous potential upside in the future. It's better to have it and not use it than to need it and not have it.

• 2:19:11Danny Jones?

  My skepticism came in to like, you know, I don't know who, where this stuff is. I don't know who's doing it. And I don't know, like if, when I need it, I'm going to get the same stuff.

• 2:19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I would be skeptical about that, too. That's the only concern is you never know who the actors are and who the players are. And that's where I was going earlier with, with what happened here in America, like with stem cells. And people talk about adverse events and oh my God, well, what about an adverse event? And even the FDA is like, oh my God, what about adverse events? Almost every adverse event in the United States that has ever occurred with stem cells occurred because of improper utilization or application or improper aseptic technique or bad players. What do I mean by that? About 15 years ago, a bunch of stem cell companies started springing up in the United States and they were selling stem cells and you've got to cryopreserve these stem cells. So they

• 2:20:00Speaker 02

  were telling clinics to store them in liquid nitrogen, but they had never validation tested the packaging to see if it could withstand liquid nitrogen. So liquid nitrogen was literally seeping into the container and polluting the cells. So when your doctor was pulling out the cells and then injecting those cells into a knee, a back, a shoulder, a spine, there were instances where they are injecting liquid nitrogen into your spine. And it killed people, it paralyzed people. Oh my god. And it created this chaos where it terrified regulators to where they just said ban them, ban them all. And this was in the Bush administration. And then people were like, they're gonna abort babies and they're gonna use fetuses and they're gonna turn them into da-da-da.

• 2:20:45Speaker 02

  Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, like Epstein diced up. And the truth of the matter is, look, heterochronic parabiosis is real. If you take an old mouse and a young mouse and you suture them together, and they've done this at Harvard, they've done this in hundreds of studies, the young mouse gets older and the old mouse gets younger. What? Yeah. It's called heterochronic parabiosis. So that you're, you're taking all of your old tired weary cells, weary blood, all of that, and you're putting it in the young mouse and it's gonna age. When you take all that young vibrant healthy cells, healthy peptides, signaling cells, all of these things, you're going to reverse your aging. Right? That, yeah. Is this what that one guy Brian Johnson was doing? Heterochronic parabiosis, a surgical technique that connects the circulatory

• 2:21:26Speaker 02

  systems of young and old mouse. Results show that young blood can rejuvenate old tissue. And so that's what I was just telling you. I just did at my clinic, what's called plasma foresis. So we hook you up to a giant dialysis machine. We take all of my blood systematically out of my body, batches at a time, and we extrapolate out all of my plasma. So I'm 45 years old, we're taking all my old tired weary plasma that's filled with contaminants, microplastics, all the metals and all the things that are in there. But we're also taking out all my inflammatory markers, all my inflammation, all of these bad things that are being stored in my plasma. And then we're replacing that with albumin,

• 2:22:10Speaker 02

  which is a, basically like a clean, fresh version of plasma that's been distilled down. And then at our practice, we're adding back in all of the goodies of life. So all the umbilical cord derived product, we're adding in MSCs, which are mesenchymal stem cells, we're adding in exosomes, cytokines, extracellular vesicles. Think of it as all the goodies of life. And so before I get into Muse, I'll try and make it quick. If we're gonna build a building, you gotta have the bricks, you gotta have the mortar, you gotta have the concrete, you gotta have the blueprint, you've gotta know how to build the building. As we age, there's a precipitous decline in all of the building blocks. So we

• 2:22:53Speaker 02

  begin to lose extracellular vesicles. We begin to lose our peptides and the amount of peptides that are available in our body. We begin to lose MSCs. There's literally a fraction of the amount of MSCs, mesenchymal stem cells viable in our body compared to where it is at birth. At birth is the most you'll ever see. And so back to heterochronic parabiosis. When a mother's pregnant, she has some of the lowest risk of cancer. That's why our woman's glow comes from, how everyone says their skin looks great. Yeah. Because what people don't realize is it's not only the baby, the mom keeping the baby alive. The baby is actually sending all of these signaling cells and youthful

• 2:23:37Speaker 02

  cord information through the circulatory system back up to the mother. So when a mom's pregnant, that's why her health, that's why she has that womanly glow. Oftentimes, they feel like their skin looks phenomenal. All of that is that process. So then you take all that afterwards and we can isolate out and utilize all of those cellular goodies that nature or God or whatever you want to say it is, gave us. And from there, we use those building blocks to return your body to where it would have been in a more youthful state. Right? And so when we administer an umbilical cord derived treatment, like an MSC or exosomes or whatever, it's in an effort to give you the building block that

• 2:24:20Speaker 02

  you're deficient in. So, jump forward. That's what we've been doing in the US. That's what, you know, the standard of care. That's even what they're doing in Panama and these other places. Now, the slight difference is outside the United States, they're allowed to manipulate and expand upon the cells. And without getting too into the weeds, they can multiply the amount of MSCs. So if you begin to lose some of the MSCs through cryo freezing and all these different things, you have more of them. Okay. So, I flew to Japan in September to go meet with a world renowned scientist, and...

• 2:24:56Speaker 02

  See the scientists who actually discovered this subset phenotype of stem cells called Muse stem cells. Muse stem cells, think of it like the super soldier of stem cells. So stem cells are already, I think, less than 2% of the cells in the body, like a very small amount of the cells in the body are stem cells. And this subset of stem cells is less than 5% of the stem cell population. Whoa. Why are these cells important? Well, in her research, what she uncovered is those were the cells that appeared to be the most prolific and the most present at the time of injury at the site. And so then she started isolating out these cells to try and investigate

• 2:25:40Speaker 02

  them and better understand them. And then she, one night, she had all these cells in a Petri dish, and she got invited out to a dinner. She goes out to the dinner and ends up drinking sake and realizes, oh, my God, I forgot to take the Petri dish and put it in the cryo freeze. When I go to work tomorrow, all the cells are going to be dead. Because stem cells can only stay viable for minutes outside the body, and they die. When she got to the lab the next morning, all those cells were still alive. There were very few that had died. And she said, this can't be right. And she realized this subset phenotype of stem cell is ultra resilient. It has the ability to survive outside the body for an extended period of time. It appears to be anywhere from two to three weeks. Whoa.

• 2:26:22Speaker 02

  Whereas other cells will die instantly, minutes. You begin to lose the viability of those cells. So think about it, if I'm going to extrapolate out cells, and then I've got to put them in your body as fast as I can, every minute, I'm losing cells, I'm losing viability. That's part of the reason that they expand those cultures. But the issue with expanding cultures is you're making copies of copies of copies of copies. And even scientists who are doing this, they have what's called the Goldilocks zone. Well, they'll do two expansions. When you start going beyond that, you start to degrade the cells, and the cells begin to lose what makes them an MSC, which means they're less valuable to the body. They're not going to have as much impact. So these subset Muse stem cells appear to actually be the cells that not only are they resilient,

• 2:27:06Speaker 02

  There also appear to be non-tumorigenic, meaning they aren't going to create or exasperate tumors. In studies with mice that had tumors, the pre-existing tumors, they actually appeared to shrink the tumor. One of the concerns with pluripotent stem cells is they could enhance the tumor. And so if somebody had an undiagnosed cancer, the fear is would it exasperate that cancer? And there's not a ton of compelling data that shows it will, but that's one of the fears. This subset phenotype of stem cell won't do that. Okay, so those are some of like the things around the safety of them. They did organ transplants with mice where they literally sutured in part of a liver and the mice that were given

• 2:27:51Speaker 02

  MUS cells accepted that liver 100% of the time, which the mice that didn't have that rejected the liver and died. So it appears to immunomodulate the healing factor and it speed up the recovery. They did studies in Alzheimer's where they looked at the brain and 18 months later, these tagged cells were all in the brain. The brain was lit up like a Christmas tree. 18 months later, which is game changer because the cells we use today are out of your system in four to six weeks. Like, they're literally out of there in days. Sometimes you can get four to six weeks. The healing effect and the benefits are there for four to six weeks, but the cells are gone in days. These MUS cells appear to stay in the body for what looks like to be years. And then it even, I mean, you just

• 2:28:36Speaker 02

  name it, whether orthopedic injuries, spine injuries, back injuries, all of the data is just unbelievable. And the way she explains it is, think of the typical stem cell as a foot soldier. And think of the MUS cell as Delta operators, or, you know, the Army Rangers, Navy SEALs. They're the cells that are doing most of the heavy lifting and they're the real cells that are driving everything. And because these cells are so resilient, you can expand them in a Petri dish without losing viability and you can keep them in what's called the Goldilocks zone. And so you're not losing cells through the expansion process, you're gaining cells and you keep them at a two, basically expand it twice.

• 2:29:21Speaker 02

  And now you've got this plethora of these super potent stem cells. And here's the most interesting of all. This is where the rubber hits the road. In the studies, traditional stem cells, MSCs, will find your tired weary cells and then transfer their mitochondria, temporarily allowing your cells to be younger again. Okay, the way muse cells appear to work, and the way the scientist Mari explains it, is think of them like a Pac-Man, and they come and they eat your dying cell and take on the personality of the dead cell and become a young baby version of that cell.

• 2:30:02Speaker 02

  So she's doing studies on Alzheimer's, on dementia, on all of these different disease states that have historically been very challenging to treat even with the stem cell technology. But preliminary, like, data and everything that we've seen is pretty mind-blowing.

• 2:30:22Danny Jones?

  How long until I can come try it?

• 2:30:25Speaker 02

  We'll talk about it.

• 2:30:26Danny Jones?

  Can I be a test dummy? Can I be a lab rat?

• 2:30:28Speaker 02

  That's, I'm working to help, hopefully through the current administration, to open the pathway, the regulatory pathway, to allow people to have accessibility to all these things. We've treated a handful of patients with these modalities, and right now the results are phenomenal. And even with the traditional MSCs, man, I have never in my life seen the results that we have gotten, just with what we have now. I mean, with regards to orthopedic injuries, knees, shoulders.

• 2:31:00Danny Jones?

  What about like dementia, stuff like that?

• 2:31:02Speaker 02

  We haven't treated a ton of folks with dementia. We've treated, well, you know, I've talked about Jesse's dad, our mutual friend Jesse Michaels.

• 2:31:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah, oh yeah.

• 2:31:11Speaker 02

  We treated his dad, and it was pretty crazy. We treated him internasally, and it allows it to pierce the blood-brain barrier. And he came in as a mega skeptic, and literally, I mean, you can ask Jesse this, I'm sure you guys talk. Jesse's like, dude, my dad is a mega skeptic, and his dad and mom are both like... She said, I had my husband back. I had my, for the first time in years, I have my husband back. And his dad said, I feel like a fog of the last two years has just dissipated. And I teleported back into my body. I don't know what you guys just gave me. And look, I want to be clear, that's a sample size of one, and I'm not saying that.

• 2:31:53Speaker 02

  But even with traditional MSCs, we had kid, we had a child, a guy's family reach out. The kid, I think is like 19, muscular dystrophy, Duchenne's muscular dystrophy. Was in a wheelchair. They heard me on Rogan. They called and said, we'd been saving up. We saved up $30,000. Can we get it done for that? I'm like, we're like $4,500, but if I've never treated this and I don't want to take your life savings. If you just can get to Austin, we'll treat you. And I've told this story. He was in a wheelchair and he can walk 33 feet now. He can walk 33 feet. Hand to God, this is a true story. We had another kid, a 20 something year old kid, who got in a car accident a year ago. He's been in a wheelchair. They told him, you're paralyzed. You'll never walk again.

• 2:32:38Speaker 02

  Came in, I mean, granted, we did peptides, we did red light, we did hyperbaric. He's been going through weeks of treatments. He can stand. He can stand now and he's gaining control of his entire lower body and he's starting to walk. And so I'm not saying that's going to be the case for everybody. And I'm not saying that we can heal these things. But what I am saying is it's worth looking at opening regulatory pathways to allow this to be more affordable and more accessible and to give people the opportunity to heal. I won't say the name, but there is a high, high caliber athlete who has been diagnosed with Parkinson's and it's a death sentence.

• 2:33:17Speaker 02

  And why would you obstruct this individual's ability to go out and have their last hope? There's no adverse event. There's no risk of this guy dying from these cells. In Florida, in Texas, in Utah, in multiple of the states, we have what's called the right to choose law that is opening up these pathways that tells the federal government, dude, we don't care. Like, this patient is allowed to do this in our state, and they're allowed to take a try at this. This is a decision of a patient and a doctor. We don't need the federal government telling us what a patient can do with their cash. We're not asking you to cover it, federal government. We're asking you to allow this human to have a shot at life again. And so, I'm trying to get that done at the federal level.

• 2:34:02Speaker 02

  Because if we can build that at the federal level, we can open accessibility for everybody throughout the country. And then this innovation and this evolution of this technology will grow. But nobody's going to invest in a technology that they don't think that they can get approved in their state, you know, or that they can scale at a federal level, a national level.

• 2:34:22Danny Jones?

  Wow, dude. That is fucking bananas. It just like, you know, it makes me wonder with the advancement of this kind of technology, with the stem cell stuff, and with the even like the DNA level stuff, like where we're going to be in 50 years, and AI, all combined.

• 2:34:39Speaker 02

  I met with a geneticist in Austin, and he worked for the Department of Defense. And legitimately, he works for a startup that's backed by multiple huge-name billionaires. And he said, "We are living in the era of X-Men. I can build X-Men today." Like, they have a gene activation shot that can make your bone mineral density eight times stronger.

• 2:35:00Danny Jones?

  What?

• 2:35:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:02Danny Jones?

  In defense?

• 2:35:03Speaker 02

  He worked for the DOD, and now he's a geneticist for this biotech startup out of Austin, and everything they're doing is offshore. Like, to get the treatments and everything, you have to go outside the United States.

• 2:35:13Danny Jones?

  They're making super soldiers, dude.

• 2:35:15Speaker 02

  They have the ability to make your bone mineral density eight times stronger. They have the ability to turn on a folistatin, which will tell your body to put on more muscle mass. That's what they use in cattle, to have cattle put on.

• 2:35:26Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah, I've heard about that.

• 2:35:27Speaker 02

  I'm not advocating, I'm not like here to say clinically it's good or bad, it's not my statement at all. What I'm saying is, the future's gonna be fucking wild.

• 2:35:35Danny Jones?

  It is.

• 2:35:35Speaker 02

  And there are treatments out there that make peptides look like child play. There's like stuff- Stuff going on.

• 2:35:41Danny Jones?

  Dude.

• 2:35:41Speaker 02

  That's game changer.

• 2:35:43Danny Jones?

  Did you see that thing that came out with in the emails, the Epstein emails where he was emailing somebody from the NSA? He was, he was getting in touch with NSA hackers to try to figure out how to hack human DNA to like make him live forever and to clone him and shit.

• 2:36:02Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 2:36:03Danny Jones?

  It's wild.

• 2:36:04Speaker 02

  No, I haven't seen that.

• 2:36:04Danny Jones?

  There was, I sent you that, I sent you that article. It was a drop site news article from Ryan Grim.

• 2:36:08Speaker 02

  Jeffrey Epstein recruited NSA code breakers. Wow.

• 2:36:12Danny Jones?

  He called, yeah, yeah, yeah. NSA code breakers for a genome, a genome Manhattan project. The financier pursued cryptographers to hack the genetic code to develop a new super intelligence to understand intercellular communication.

• 2:36:27Speaker 02

  I mean, it, it, that, it's here. The science is here and with large language models and artificial intelligence, we are going to hack the genome more and more and more. So my mentor and, and so everything I've told you today is, is not me speaking alone in a vacuum. Like my mentor and our chief science officer is Dr. Ian White. 22 years of stem cell research. Harvard and Sare Stem Cell Institute professor has taught at some of the best and brightest academic schools in America. A guy at the bench doing the research literally wrote the book on, a book on stem cells, kept a heart alive in a Petri dish for two months and was nominated for a Nobel Prize using stem cell technology.

• 2:37:12Speaker 02

  Dr. White says, if we can begin to understand our genome better, we share a common ancestor with every species on earth. What does that mean? We share a common DNA, it's common, we share common DNA with Greenland sharks, which lives 600, 400 to 600 years and don't have cancer. We share a common ancestor with the Galapagos tortoise that lives over 200 years and has a slow metabolic rate. We share a common ancestor with the attorney, eternal jellyfish that lives 5,000 years and reverses backwards. When it reaches a certain age capacity, it rebirths and becomes a baby again and lives another thousands of years.

• 2:37:56Speaker 02

  That is within our genome. So all of these traits are within our genetic makeup. The question is, how do we find that marker and how do we turn it on? And it's there. It's within all of us.

• 2:38:09Danny Jones?

  Oh my god.

• 2:38:10Speaker 02

  And so the code to eternity is potentially within us. And this isn't me saying this. This is fucking scientists that are way more brilliant than I'll ever be telling me this. And then you've got, you know, I mean, from all walks of life, then we've got this geneticist who's at the bench building technologies for multi-billion dollar companies that can turn on a gene to put muscle on, that can turn on a gene to make your bones more dense, that can turn on a gene that increases your clotho levels, which was in pre-increases neurocognitive response. There it's almost like the limitless pill, right? If we can enhance your clotho levels to a certain level, it's going to improve all of your cognitive response, your data retention, your data recall, all of these things.

• 2:38:52Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:38:52Speaker 02

  And they're working on all of it. I mean.

• 2:38:55Danny Jones?

  Dude, I had this lady on the podcast who did this whole, uh, she wrote a book on this. It's called the Pentagon's Brain. Have you ever heard of it?

• 2:39:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:39:03Danny Jones?

  It's a, she, she interviewed all the people from this organization called DARPA.

• 2:39:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, the DARPA.

• 2:39:08Danny Jones?

  And she, she said that they've been working on Neuralink, like brain implants for super soldiers since like the early 90s. Like all the stuff she says that you see come out into the public and like the consumer market is usually DARPA's 20 years ahead of that. And they're funding all kinds of crazy research.

• 2:39:26Speaker 02

  Did you hear Elon where he's talking about you'll be able to see in infrared, you'll be able to see eagle eye?

• 2:39:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:32Speaker 02

  With the, and then you've already got chimpanzees controlling computers with their brains. And now we have humans controlling computers with their brains. These human, like the future is gonna get wild, man. It's gonna get wild.

• 2:39:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And they're, I mean, they're doing it openly with psychedelics already. There's a, uh, there's one of the schools, I think it's Chapel Hill, North Carolina Chapel Hill, the head of one of the departments there had got like a $20 million grant from DARPA to study psychedelics for soldiers and how to take the psychedelic trip out of psilocybin, I think, either psilocy- yeah, it was psilocybin, to, uh, help get soldiers through PTSD and through the trauma and get them right back out on the battlefield. And they're even doing this with the soldiers in Ukraine. I heard the story that came out last year where they were so, so all of the, all of the warfighters on the Russian side, those

• 2:40:30Danny Jones?

  guys were all hopped up on, on like meth and all of the soldiers on the US side and Ukrainian side, they were trying to give them Ibogaine and there, there was this one like crazy dude who was like flying, like piloting tons of like planes full of Ibogaine to Ukraine to get them to those soldiers. So they can just like get through their psychological trauma, get them right back on the battlefield. And there's even people that speculate that they're using this stuff for like optimizing soldiers while they're in battle to increase things like edge detection and like moving through 3D space better to get them more up, make them more optimal killing machines, dude. The, the whole psychedelic thing is crazy too.

• 2:41:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:09Danny Jones?

  The whole psychedelic thing is how it's been co-opted by so many different groups.

• 2:41:14Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:41:16Speaker 02

  Ukraine.

• 2:41:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:17Speaker 02

  That's so crazy. I think the psychedelic field's a whole nother world too.

• 2:41:21Danny Jones?

  It is.

• 2:41:22Speaker 02

  It's gonna be fascinating to see what happens with that.

• 2:41:24Danny Jones?

  It really is, man. It scares me a little bit.

• 2:41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:41:29Danny Jones?

  It scares me because like, you know, like it can absolutely, like certain psychedelics can be used. Uh, you know, I think there's been studies to like compare like the, the benefits of like depression and stuff with psychedelics for, for veterans and stuff. And like the comparison to placebo is pretty extraordinary. Um, but then there's other psychedelics that are like, uh, a lot more dangerous, you know, like Ibogaine is way more dangerous than, uh, suicide.

• 2:41:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:59Danny Jones?

  You know, cause like it increases your heart rate. A lot of people have had fucking heart attacks and died from Ibogaine. And you know, there's weird like, there's weird like little, when you, there's this guy I've had in this podcast. He's a hilarious dude. He's a dude, he's from Kentucky. He's a, a, a music journalist. He was originally like a music journalist writing about like country, like country pop, like rock bands and, and like blues bands and stuff like that. And he got into this psychedelic study at Johns Hopkins. He signed up for the study in like the early 2000s that Johns Hopkins was doing on, um, On, I think it was on LSD and different kinds of things. They're giving him all kinds

• 2:42:42Danny Jones?

  of psychedelics and studying him and asking him questions and stuff. And then he got like super fascinated in this whole world. And he's been reporting on the psychedelic world and this like new psychedelic renaissance ever since. And like he finds out all, he like, he pulls out and like, uh, brings to light all of the weird little, uh, financial entanglements with these billionaires who are funding certain psychedelic movements to do certain things. And, um, one of the things he found was there was this dude named George, George Sarlow, who was like a billionaire. And, um, there's the whole MAPS Institute. You heard of MAPS? Yeah, yeah.

• 2:43:26Danny Jones?

  So they were studying MDMA with Rick Doblin. They were trying to get MDMA FDA approved or whatever. And these girls from MAPS, um, met this guy. He was like really, really old, uh, billionaire. And they started like hanging out with him, having sex with him and stuff like that. And, um, giving him MDMA. And he was like, oh my God. He's like, this is making my life so much better. This is like improving the quality of my life so much that he decided to donate a bunch of his money to MAPS, to this MDMA stuff. And, um, this guy's, I think it was his stepdaughter, or his daughter or his stepdaughter found

• 2:44:09Danny Jones?

  out about this. And she's like, oh my God, my dad is donating my inheritance to this MDMA shit. So his daughter has basically, uh, since he's died and she's got all his money, now she's taking all her money and she started up this like weird little like ambiguous, uh, company, nonprofit, that's funding opposition to MAPS and psychedelic stuff. And like funding media organizations and websites and podcasts to talk negatively about psychedelics. And it's just like,

• 2:44:45Danny Jones?

  It gets so confusing when you realize like why certain people are like pushing against things and like even like podcasters.

• 2:44:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know some about the psychedelic space too. We're actually funding a study called The Minds Project at Ways to Well affiliated with Dell Medical School utilizing psilocybin to see if we can help complex problem solving. So rather than focusing on like depression or anxiety or any of these things that typically they're focusing on, our question is can we give psilocybin to a scientist who's working on a very complicated equation or problem that they've been trapped or stooped by and see if they can solve it? And so, yeah, the reason we did that is there was a scientist at NASA that was struggling to solve a complex equation, had been working on this equation for like four years. He went out and took LSD one weekend and came back with the answer. And that literally is how

• 2:45:38Speaker 02

  this all started. And so they came to us with this idea and I'm like, I love it. Let's do it. We'll do the trial. So we just started, but we're working through it and it's in affiliation with Dell Medical School. It's gonna be pretty cool. But I know a story of what you're talking about, that same MDMA trial, there is another billionaire that's backing psilocybin. And again, I don't know if this is true, but the word in the psychedelic community at these events is this other billionaire intentionally sabotaged that trial with the FDA to undermine the MDMA stuff because he wants his stuff. He wants to be the guy who has his name on the first FDA approved psychedelic.

• 2:46:19Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:46:19Speaker 02

  Right? And he wants it to be his company because there's a huge financial return on that too.

• 2:46:23Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:46:23Speaker 02

  Now, I don't know how much truth there is and I won't say names or anything, but that is the chatter at those psychedelic conferences and some of the events that I've been to. I'm like, man.

• 2:46:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah, the psychedelic thing scares me the most, I think, out of all of this stuff because psychedelics is the one thing that like. It can be super helpful for people and like transformative for people and therapeutic for people. But like the one weird thing about psychedelics is people, once they get really into it, they become evangelists. They become psychedelic. They can become like fucking door knockers.

• 2:46:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:46:55Danny Jones?

  You know, trying to recruit everybody.

• 2:46:57Speaker 02

  Or even worse, they become, they want to be prophets is what I've seen. Like almost like beyond an evangelist to like, uh, delusions of.

• 2:47:06Danny Jones?

  They get like a Messiah complex.

• 2:47:08Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 2:47:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And there was a study that was, another study that was done, I think with Johns Hopkins, where it was called, uh, the stud, the psychedelic study on religious professionals, where they took religious leaders from all the different big religions and they brought them in and they gave them psilocybin. And they said, and they wanted to figure out like what the psilocybin did to their religious belief, to see if there was like a core, a common chord, all religions. And what they found was it just like amplified their pre-existing beliefs.

• 2:47:37Speaker 02

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 2:47:38Danny Jones?

  So what the, I guess, I guess, they never actually published what they found because I didn't think it went with their hypothesis. But from what I understand is like what, what it's doing is like just amplifying what's already there, like deep within your psyche, you know?

• 2:47:54Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 2:47:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it really is.

• 2:47:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's so many different pathways. I don't know what time it is.

• 2:48:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:01Speaker 02

  Shit.

• 2:48:01Danny Jones?

  Four fifty.

• 2:48:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably.

• 2:48:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, we can wrap it up. Um, but dude, thank you for doing this.

• 2:48:07Speaker 02

  Man, thank you for having me.

• 2:48:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah, my pleasure. Uh, tell, tell everybody about where they can learn more about Ways to Well and all the other stuff that you're doing.

• 2:48:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, our, our company's Ways, the number two, Well, W E L L. Um, a lot on the website, a lot on social media. Um, there's a lot of content out there on podcasts where we deep dive into this like we did today. Um, but the vision of what we're doing is getting proactive, predictive and preventative. Um, at our practice, our goal is to prevent chronic disease, not to treat it. Um, and how do we stop the major killers of humanity? You don't ever let them evolve in the first place. Um, and we do that through an array of different modalities, but it starts with taking a look under the hood, working you through the. Diagnostic workup or utilizing maybe a blood work test or DEXA or VO2 max or genetic

• 2:48:57Speaker 02

  screening or gut biome test or something that you may have done somewhere else. We're not opposed to taking data from anywhere. The goal is to culminate the data and extrapolate the information and distill it in down into a form that you can use and to drive your health span. And so we have an app that we're launching with a large language model that'll tie into all of this, that'll answer your questions, that'll tie into the pharmacy, that'll help with your prescriptions, that'll help answer why you started them, that'll answer any, any question you may have that you could think of. And it also covers things like red light and hyperbaric and any of the preventative care modalities that are becoming more and more popular. And so my

• 2:49:39Speaker 02

  thing is get proactive, get predictive, take sovereignty autonomy over your health. Do not put your health in the hands of this broken ass system and be a steward to yourself and your family. And the future's bright, like it's, it's bright. We can help guide you if you ever need a resource. But like we said, the step of a, or the thousand mile journey starts with the first step and we're here for all thousand miles.

• 2:50:02Danny Jones?

  Dude, it's been epic to meet you. I'm really glad we were able to connect and I will be booking my trip to Austin as soon as we get off this podcast. So I can go get up, get my, my treatment done.

• 2:50:10Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 2:50:11Danny Jones?

  Hell yeah, man.

• 2:50:12Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:50:13Danny Jones?

  Dude, thank you for coming.

• 2:50:14Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 2:50:14Danny Jones?

  It's been awesome. We'll link everything below for everyone.

• 2:50:16Speaker 02

  All right. Thanks, brother.

• 2:50:17Danny Jones?

  Good night, everybody.

• 2:50:18Speaker 00

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