ALIEN: The Phoenix Lights

On March 13, 1997, thousands of witnesses in Phoenix, Arizona, reported seeing a series of bright lights moving silently across the night sky. The phenomenon, known as the Phoenix Lights, sparked speculation about UFOs, military exercises, and secret government experiments. Despite official explanations attributing the lights to flares or military aircraft, the mystery of the Phoenix Lights remains unsolved, leaving many to wonder about the true nature of the unidentified flying objects.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Look, I know better than anyone that trying to convince a non-believer of a UFO sighting is like trying to nail jelly to the wall, right? There will always be some low-hanging fruit explanation for what that object might actually be: a satellite, a bird, heck, even a runaway birthday balloon. Believe me, I've heard it all. And it frustrates me to no end. But what happens when you have a UFO that's larger than anything known to man? And what happens when that UFO isn't just seen by one witness or two, but by hundreds? Photo, evidence, and all. Well, that's when you get the Phoenix Lights.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  On March 13, 1997, this is exactly what happened to the people of Phoenix, Arizona. A giant V-shaped object passed over the city, leaving many people staring up at the sky with no good explanation for what they were seeing. This event was a believer's dream and a skeptic's nightmare. And today, it remains one of the most widely-witnessed UFO sightings in history. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is So Supernatural.

• 1:32Rasha Pecoraro?

  It is no surprise to anyone that my sister and I are obsessed with all things aliens and UFOs. So unpacking one of the strangest, unexplained sightings in our skies to date? This is gold. Sign us up. I'm Rasha Pequeguero.

• 1:49Yvette Gentile?

  I'm Yvette Gentile, and on the night of March 13, 1997, people all over Arizona saw the same unexplained phenomena in the sky: large amber lights in a V-formation, floating only a few hundred feet from the ground. What became known as the Phoenix Lights got many people asking: what happens when a UFO sighting isn't just seen by one or two witnesses, but by thousands?

• 2:21Rasha Pecoraro?

  Could there be a grounded explanation? Or is there really something out there? Something that's no longer trying to hide in the shadows, but instead preparing us for a bigger, global awakening?

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• 3:39Rasha Pecoraro?

  So one of my favorite pastimes, both as a child and as an adult, is to gaze up at the night sky and just ponder, like, how did we find our way to this specific spot in this vast universe? And all the questions go through my head, and I talk to my sister about this all the time, like, are there other planets, you know, with life? Like beaming with life out there? Is it possible? I believe it really is possible. Seeing things that are magical in our big night sky, it's hard not to feel connected to something much bigger. But what if, one day, we looked up and caught a glimpse of something phenomenal?

• 4:22Rasha Pecoraro?

  Something that made us rethink everything we thought we knew about the universe? That's exactly what happened to a Phoenix, Arizona, doctor named Lynn Keitai.

• 4:33Rasha Pecoraro?

  It was around 8:00 PM on January 22nd, 1997, when Lynn, she crawled into bed around 8:00 PM, a girl after my own heart, because I'm always in bed by that time. She was gazing out of her window at the mountain ranges in the distance, ready to drift off to the same spectacular view as always. And that's when something on the horizon caught her attention. A series of bizarre lights. According to Dr. Lynn Keitai's book, "The Phoenix Lights", and her 2005 documentary of the same name, Lynn lived close to the Sky Harbor International Airport, so she was used to watching planes come and go over the mountain range near her home.

• 5:14Rasha Pecoraro?

  But Lynn was certain what she was seeing that night didn't look like the lights of an airplane. For starters, these lights weren't that bright, and Lynn could tell that they were flying pretty low to the ground. From her estimates, they were only about 50 to 75 feet in the air. Plus, there were three of them, and each one was oval-shaped and amber-colored. Lynn noticed how they moved in a steady, straight line alongside each other. Then she watched as they quickly formed an even triangle. The most captivating thing was their amber glow. The lights seemed contained, easy on the eyes since there was no harsh glare.

• 5:58Rasha Pecoraro?

  They were beautiful to look at. Lynn said she didn't feel scared or threatened by them. In fact, she actually felt soothed by the sight of them.

• 6:10Yvette Gentile?

  This is so wild, because it's like, it totally makes you want to have been there and witnessed it, because for me, I could only imagine it would create a sense of complete and utter awe.

• 6:25Rasha Pecoraro?

  That's a great way to say it, complete and utter awe. And I think Lynn was feeling that. And now, of course, she was wide awake and fully aware that she was not dreaming. Lynn looked for some reasonable explanation to what she was seeing. Was someone operating some sort of remote-controlled device? Were these laser beams? What were the lights attached to? But she didn't see anything else, only the lights. It didn't make any sense to her. She, of course, yelled for her husband Frank to come into the room just to make sure her eyes weren't playing tricks on her. But he wasn't as shocked by the sight as she was. He sort of laughed it off, got into bed, and began to fall asleep.

• 7:08Rasha Pecoraro?

  But Lynn laid there for quite a while, just watching those orbs of light. Until eventually, each orb gently faded from view, one by one. Chances are, Lynn hardly slept that night. She had so many questions, the biggest one being, would she ever get a chance to see them again? Well, the answer to that was a resounding yes. And she didn't have to wait long, because that very next evening, on January 23rd, the lights returned. It was around 6:00 PM, and Lynn was expecting Frank to get home from work any minute. She looked out her window and realized the orbs were back.

• 7:53Rasha Pecoraro?

  And they looked identical to the ones from the night before, even dancing around in the same triangle formation. This time, though, Lynn decided to do more than just stare up at them. She ran into the other room, and she grabbed her video camera. Which, side note, Lynn was a former physician who worked in health communications. She produced educational video content. So it's just safe to say her video camera was probably a little better than the average. Even so, Lynn was able to only get 18 seconds of video before the camera battery died.

• 8:31Rasha Pecoraro?

  Is this a classic case of forgetting to charge your video camera? Or was something else going on here? Because I will say, this is actually pretty common in UFO sightings. People who try capturing footage of UFOs often say that their tech malfunctions, their phone or their camera batteries just die. Some people had even reported a weird glare on their screen, so I have to wonder, is that what happened to Lynn?

• 8:59Yvette Gentile?

  I don't know if we'll ever get a real answer. And from what I can tell, Lynn doesn't thoroughly offer her own theory. All we really know is that she was standing there in awe, watching them. And that it wasn't long before the orbs just faded from view, like one at a time. And when her husband Frank returned home from work, Lynn was so eager to tell him all about what she had seen, yet again. But get this, as she was describing it to him, the lights suddenly reappeared. And this time, Lynn grabbed her regular camera, and as she stepped out onto the balcony to snap some pictures,

• 9:43Yvette Gentile?

  six more orbs appeared over the formation of three, making up a grand total of nine. The new orbs were identical to the others, except they remained in a straight line, rather than moving into a triangle formation with the others. Lynn needed to know if anyone besides her and Frank had witnessed this. Remember, this was 1997, before the days of social media. So she couldn't just go onto Twitter or Instagram to check out what other people were saying, which is probably why she called the local newspaper, the Arizona Republic. Lynn got in touch with the newsroom reporter and told her that someone should get out there and start snapping photos.

• 10:27Yvette Gentile?

  But as soon as she said this, all nine of the lights just disappeared right before her eyes. I think it's safe to say Lynn felt completely defeated, like the opportunity had just passed her by.

• 10:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  But the thing about Lynn is, she's really persistent. Especially when it comes to educating the public. So the very next morning, she called the same local paper again. This time, she spoke with a different reporter who suggested the lights might have been caused by test flights conducted by pilots at Luke Air Force Base nearby. Lynn thought, if there's an easy explanation to this, I want to know. So what did she do? She picked up the phone and called Luke Air Force Base herself. A woman answered her call, and Lynn told her the entire story. But the woman's response was honestly, a bit rude and short. She said no one there had seen the lights and that Lynn should contact the airport.

• 11:26Rasha Pecoraro?

  Then click, she just hung up on her.

• 11:28Yvette Gentile?

  But again, Lynn wasn't going to let herself be discouraged by this. She did some research, she found the number of a Federal Aviation Administration, or FAA agent, and she dialed the number. Eventually, she was connected with an FAA agent, who told her something very interesting. Air traffic controllers had seen the exact same thing as Lynn. Down to the minute. And get this. The weirdest part to them was that the lights didn't show up on their radar at all. Something completely unheard of for any registered aircraft.

• 12:07Yvette Gentile?

  At this point, Lynn's mind was racing with thoughts that she didn't know if she should say out loud. Could these lights have been something not of this planet? It was an idea that had been in the back of her mind since the beginning, mainly because this wasn't the first time she'd seen those lights.

• 12:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  Two years earlier, on the night before her birthday, February 6, 1995, Lynn was relaxing at home, gazing out at the night sky as she normally did, when three amber orbs appeared.

• 12:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  That time, the orbs were about 100 yards from the couple's home over private desert land. They were exactly like the ones Lynn saw in January of 1997. The same shape, the same size, and even the same amber color. They even formed the same triangular formation and faded from view one at a time. Except, in 1995, she did manage to capture them on film. Worried about what she might see when it was finally developed, Lynn went back and forth about whether she should take the film to the shop to get developed. A few weeks later, she finally mustered up the courage to take the film in. She walked into the store, and when one of the film's developers asked how they could help,

• 13:25Rasha Pecoraro?

  Lynn explained that her photos required some special care. And then, she told him why. I'm sure she was nervous for his reaction, but apparently, instead of doubting her, get this, the worker had his own details to add to the story. The day after Lynn's sighting, he spotted Air Force jets, quote, "scouting the area."

• 13:47Yvette Gentile?

  Okay, so this makes me think of all those helicopters that surrounded the Betty Cash and the Vicky Landrum UFO encounter that happened back in 1980. Which, if y'all haven't heard that one yet, you have to go back and listen to this one. Because, trust me, it's another one that will blow your mind.

• 14:07Rasha Pecoraro?

  And Lynn was probably wondering what the Air Force's involvement at this time was too. But it seems like after that 1995 sighting, Lynn sort of put this in the back of her mind. At least, until the UFOs returned again in 1997. That's when she turned to the one group she thought would take her sightings seriously: the Mutual UFO Network, otherwise known as MUFON. After stumbling upon them in her research, Lynn found the contact information for a field investigator in Phoenix, a man we know only as Richard. Richard told Lynn that he wouldn't be able to meet for a few weeks. But in a way, that turned out to be a blessing in disguise.

• 14:50Rasha Pecoraro?

  Because before that meeting rolled around, something incredible happened. The lights came back. And this time, it wasn't just Lynn who saw them.

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• 16:08Rasha Pecoraro?

  On the night of March 13th, 1997, thousands of people in Phoenix, Arizona gathered under the night sky. They were all hoping to catch a glimpse of a rare phenomenon: the Hail Bob Comet.

• 16:23Yvette Gentile?

  This comet was one of the brightest to ever enter the solar system. And between 1996 and 1997, it was visible to the naked eye as it traveled around the globe. But on that night, it came its closest distance to Earth yet, making the sight even more remarkable. One of the most popular spots to see Hail Bob in Phoenix was South Mountain Park. It was the perfect escape from the city lights, which made it a popular destination for large crowds. Especially on nights when celestial events were taking place.

• 17:02Rasha Pecoraro?

  We don't know exactly how many people were there that evening, but based on the reports we've read, it sounds like the park was packed to the brim. Even Arizona's governor at the time, Fife Symington, was actually there.

• 17:16Yvette Gentile?

  Based on the comet's orbit, people at South Mountain Park expected to get a good view of the Hail Bop at around 9:00 PM. But when that time rolled around, they were in for a huge surprise. The onlookers got a solid peek at that comet, but then their attention was quickly averted elsewhere to a group of six orange-colored orbs floating slowly over the mountain ranges. Needless to say, people were freaked out because even as Hail Bop came and went, those lights remained floating across the sky. And it was clear to everyone that they were completely separate from the comet.

• 18:00Yvette Gentile?

  But it wasn't clear what they were.

• 18:05Rasha Pecoraro?

  Most witnesses described the orbs as amber in color, appearing in a V-shaped or triangle formation, just like the ones that Lynn had seen before. According to the 2005 documentary, "The Phoenix Lights", these orbs were described as uniformly round, and they floated in a fixed distance from one another. And as far as each individual light goes, there was no glow and no glare. Each seemed contained within its own sphere, kind of like a lit-up balloon.

• 18:38Yvette Gentile?

  Witnesses also said the lights were so close to the ground that they floated underneath the planes that were coming in to land at Sky Harbor Airport. And they moved so slowly that people wondered how they were physically able to stay airborne.

• 18:55Rasha Pecoraro?

  Aside from the obvious question of "what is this", people were obviously puzzled by the fixed positioning of the lights. Many wondered if maybe they were attached to a larger object. But if that were the case, witnesses estimated the craft to have been about a mile wide.

• 19:12Yvette Gentile?

  Also, whatever this was, it was completely silent. And a lot of people had the same emotional reaction when they saw it. They were startled at first, but eventually, they felt a deep sense of calm wash over them.

• 19:30Rasha Pecoraro?

  It was everything Dr. Lynn Keitai had seen and felt when she saw the lights. And while Lynn wasn't at the park with the crowds that night, it wouldn't be long until she heard the news. Because by 9:30 PM that evening, emergency responders and radio stations throughout Phoenix were flooded with calls about the orbs, which were soon dubbed "The Phoenix Lights".

• 19:54Yvette Gentile?

  When morning came, the stakes felt a lot higher for Lynn. Because remember Richard the MUFON investigator? That was the day she was set to meet him. But now, the story, her story, had gotten a lot bigger. Given the previous night's events, Lynn and Richard's conversation wasn't going to be quiet. It wasn't going to be a one-on-one that she had planned for. When she arrived at his house that morning, the place was flooded with reporters who were prepping Richard for an on-camera interview. He and Lynn barely even had any time to introduce themselves amidst the chaos of wires and lights. When Richard asked Lynn if she'd like to share her experience on camera, Lynn declined.

• 20:39Yvette Gentile?

  She wasn't ready to talk about it on TV, at least not yet. But she did give Richard a copy of that 18-second video footage that she took two months prior back in January. And Lynn told him that he could share that with the reporters. So by 4:30 PM, Lynn's footage was all over the local channels, alongside a slew of eyewitness accounts.

• 21:06Rasha Pecoraro?

  As it turned out, there had been a heck of a lot more sightings than expected, all throughout a 300-mile stretch of Arizona, and all in the same night. They started northwest of Phoenix in the city of Palden and ran southeast of Phoenix to Tucson. The huge volume of sightings generated a whole lot of buzz, but the mania reached new heights when a guy named Jim De La Toso upped the ante.

• 21:31Yvette Gentile?

  So Jim was a computer specialist at a tech company called Village Labs, a place that built supercomputers for both Hollywood Studios and the US government. But Jim was also an avid UFO believer, and for 20 years, he used his computer and design skills to analyze footage of possible UFOs in his spare time. He appeared on one of the local stations and explained how the lights, just like the ones over Phoenix, had been appearing all over the world for the last six years: in Belgium, in Russia, even in South Korea. And Jim found it incredibly strange that in most of these sightings,

• 22:15Yvette Gentile?

  very few people were able to see what those lights were attached to. So Jim used his eyewitness accounts to make computer renderings of the possible UFO. He studied the color, the spacing, and the arrangement of the lights, and consistently, he came up with the same image: a narrow, black, V-shaped object, almost like the corner of a picture frame with evenly spaced orange lights. Jim's rendering stirred up a lot of discussion, so much so that the Phoenix mayor's office had to address the issue. Well, I mean, sort of.

• 22:57Yvette Gentile?

  In a written statement, the mayor's office said, and this is a quote, "We don't have UFOs in Phoenix." They might as well just have said, "Aliens aren't real and don't think about them." And in taking that stance, hello, we are all now ironically thinking aliens, aliens, and aliens.

• 23:20Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah. If this was their attempt at a cover-up, it definitely wasn't an effective one. Because the chatter about these UFOs continued for the next few weeks. And in early May 1997, about two months after the mass sighting, reporters approached Phoenix Councilwoman Frances Barwood about it. They told the councilwoman how impossible it had been to get more than a one-sentence statement from the city government. Barwood was a little annoyed by all of this, but it wasn't because of the reporters. But instead, it was because of her own government's response. You see, earlier that same day, Barwood attended a council meeting and she actually broached the topic herself. She told her colleagues that she wanted the city to investigate the lights.

• 24:05Rasha Pecoraro?

  Like so many others had been doing, she wondered aloud if these things could have been some sort of alien aircraft. But her colleagues shut her down. One of them approached her and told her point-blank, the mayor's office didn't want to address the Phoenix Lights publicly. Here's the thing, though. There were a lot of people, not just Barwood, who felt the lights were something more supernatural.

• 24:31Yvette Gentile?

  And the believers were about to get a second win. Because UFO researchers at MUFON and the Village Labs determined that between the hours of 5:30 PM on March 13th and 2 AM on March 14th, about 10,000 people across the state of Arizona had seen the lights. And that was nearly double the amount of witnesses than what people had initially thought, which meant more people were demanding answers, and not just in Phoenix.

• 25:05Rasha Pecoraro?

  If you remember from earlier, Arizona Governor Fife Symington had been at South Mountain Park on the night of March 13th. Like a lot of people, he wanted to see Hail Bob. And he got way more than he bargained for when he also saw the Phoenix Lights. So on July 19th, Symington held a press conference.

• 25:27Rasha Pecoraro?

  Now, this press conference, I actually watched it.

• 25:29Yvette Gentile?

  Me too.

• 25:30Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah, it's insulting to the public, in my humble opinion. So during the press conference, he claimed the Arizona Department of Public Safety had investigated the lights and they'd found something strange. But that's when something else entered the stage and approached the governor. It was a tall, gray Martian.

• 25:51Yvette Gentile?

  And just to be clear, a fake one, of course.

• 25:54Rasha Pecoraro?

  Of course. Believe it or not, Symington's chief of staff was there, dressed in an alien costume. He ended up removing the Martian head and having a good laugh on camera, which I thought was totally bogus. And it didn't feel like they were laughing with the people of Arizona at that point.

• 26:13Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's more like they were laughing at them. So all these people, you have to imagine, like we said, 10,000 people just witnesses, and now you're making fun of them?

• 26:25Rasha Pecoraro?

  Exactly. And people were frustrated, knowing that Symington was pretending the thousands of witnesses alongside him that night hadn't seen anything real. But if Symington thought this little media stunt would shut people up, boy, was he wrong. It caused even more buzz. Around the same time as Governor Symington's press conference, USA Today picked up the story of the Phoenix Lights. Now, the entire country was following the details and the theories. So a few weeks after the state of Arizona addressed it, the federal government felt it was their turn to do the same. Only they said that they had a good explanation for the entire thing.

• 27:07Rasha Pecoraro?

  In August, about five months after the sighting, a National Guard captain came forward and said that on March 13th, visiting pilots from the Air National Guard had been conducting training out in Phoenix. The pilots had dropped a series of flares as part of this training, and that must have been what everyone was seeing. Some people bought into this explanation. I don't buy it even for one second. Flares have smoke that come with them? I'm sorry, it makes zero sense to me. How about for you, Yvette?

• 27:38Yvette Gentile?

  I mean, I couldn't agree with you more because, like you said, there would be smoke and flares would drift because there's, you know, the wind. There's no way possible they could all stay in that single formation. That doesn't make any logical sense. But what I can tell you, who else wasn't buying this? Lyn Kitai. By now, she was seriously reflecting on what this issue meant to her. And after all, you know what? There could be intelligent life out there trying to contact us, or harm us, or at the very least, trying to understand us. And since this mass sighting occurred right in her own backyard, Lyn couldn't let the issue get swept under the rug.

• 28:24Yvette Gentile?

  Everything in her screamed, "Reveal the truth," whatever that may be. She was done just investigating in her spare time. Now she wanted to fully 100% commit. So guess what she did? She said goodbye to her career in the health and medicine industry, and she became an independent UFO researcher. This was her new full-time job and her renewed purpose. This reminds me a lot of mom, you know, but in a different way. Because our mom, it's like, once she started to unravel and find the truth, right? About her life and her past.

• 29:09Yvette Gentile?

  Everything was put to the side, and this became-

• 29:12Rasha Pecoraro?

  Her life's mission.

• 29:14Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, and this seems exactly what happened to Lyn Kitai.

• 29:19Rasha Pecoraro?

  You know, I went on a deep dive, and I actually found Lyn on Facebook. I wanted to see what she's up to now, and she's still talking about the Phoenix Lights.

• 29:28Yvette Gentile?

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:29Rasha Pecoraro?

  She's coming up with another documentary. It's fascinating to me that she gave up her entire career for something she believed in, and yes, totally reminded me of mom.

• 29:41Yvette Gentile?

  It's like what we talked about earlier. It's like, you can't unsee that, right? And now you have it, like, it's etched in your mind forever. It's etched in your mind, it's etched in your heart, it's etched in your spirit. And like, she just can't stop.

• 29:55Rasha Pecoraro?

  Mm-hmm. She has a website, the Phoenix Lights Network, and it's one of the largest banks of information on this topic. Lyn updates the site with- new information to this very day. And in fact, she still urges people with witness testimony or any other relevant information to get in touch with her. I mean, she knows better than anyone that the lights weren't a one-off. After all, she saw them before anyone else did. Not once, but twice. Now she knows that similar sightings have occurred all over the world. True to her scientific training, Lynn's approach is the more data, the better.

• 30:34Yvette Gentile?

  The Phoenix Lights remain a mystery to this day. Not just for Lynn, but for every single one of those witnesses. Although many have wondered, could there be a logical explanation for the mass sighting? And if so, is it buried in a bunch of top-secret military budgets?

• 30:59Speaker 03

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• 31:59Yvette Gentile?

  Both the Arizona and US governments have been silent about the Phoenix Lights ever since the mass sighting occurred in 1997. Even when officials did address the issue, their claims were lackluster at best. So in the decades since, people have come up with their very own theories, including one that's altered a lot of people's worldviews, that the Phoenix Lights were the result of a top-secret military operation. Let's start with the idea of "black budgets." It's a little confusing, so let me just boil it down as best I can. Basically, it refers to gaps in defense spending documents. Author Nick Cook, who wrote a book about classified government projects,

• 32:44Yvette Gentile?

  explains that these gaps are actually money that's not just missing, but instead going towards secret military projects. Essentially, it's where secret new military technologies are hidden.

• 32:59Rasha Pecoraro?

  These projects are usually developed under code names, which of course don't appear on budget documentation at all. And since the 1980s, researchers have found that the US military's black budget has ballooned into the billions. The projects themselves are often called "black projects" or "black ops." Over the years, there have been a lot of different theories floating around about what a "black op" could be, from anti-gravity technology to aircrafts that move at supersonic speeds. But there's one definitive project that's been leaked to the public over the last few years. It's a high-speed, high-altitude aircraft that goes by the code name "OxKart."

• 33:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  The US military actually built it for espionage missions during the Cold War. But at the time, civilians and even commercial airline pilots weren't used to seeing planes fly at such high altitudes and speeds. So when it was spotted in the sky, some wondered if they were seeing an alien spaceship.

• 34:01Yvette Gentile?

  But since then, the government may have taken some of these projects a step further. There's one invention, an aircraft, that's said to easily traverse our skies in space. It's called aerospace orbital airships. And then there's a program called JP Aerospace based in California. They're supposedly leading the development on this technology. The company's been around since the 1970s and some think they may have been running test flights on March 13th, 1997. I mean, maybe that's what the people saw that night when they were witnessing the Phoenix Lights?

• 34:41Yvette Gentile?

  It just, you know, the government is always trying to steer us in a different direction.

• 34:47Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, a third-generation Army officer and special operations infantryman named David Morehouse has talked a lot about that theory. He was assigned to several top-secret Army programs, and he wrote a book about his experience in the CIA's Experimental Psychic Warfare Program. It was called Project Stargate. If this program is news to you, don't worry. It's only a matter of time before we do an entire episode on that one.

• 35:16Yvette Gentile?

  Can't wait for that. But basically, Russia, what you're saying is Morehouse has the inside scoop on the black ops, right?

• 35:25Rasha Pecoraro?

  It really seems that way. According to Morehouse, the US military began developing these orbital airships back in 1964. During the space race between the US and the Soviet Union, they experimented specifically with balloon crafts, sort of like hot air balloons that moved at hypersonic speed. When that didn't go as planned, Morehouse says that the military enlisted three different contracting companies, including JP Aerospace, to develop something stronger and more aerodynamic. Specifically, a V-shaped aircraft fixed with six orbs of light.

• 36:03Yvette Gentile?

  Well, doesn't that sound familiar?

• 36:05Rasha Pecoraro?

  It sure does. Now, defense contractors are public companies, so I went online to see if I could find any patent records that fit the description of the Phoenix Lights. And sure enough, I found one. It's from the early 1990s, just a few years before the mass sighting. It's described as having, quote, "balloon-shaped chambers that contain lighter-than-air gas."

• 36:30Rasha Pecoraro?

  So I have to wonder, is it possible the orbs were those balloon-shaped chambers? That would explain why the lights appeared contained, because they were. And it could also explain why no one could make out what the lights were actually attached to.

• 36:48Yvette Gentile?

  It definitely fits the description of what people saw, but if that's the case, the military must have known that people would see these lights that night. So why test something right at the peak of the Halepob comet if they wanted to keep this stuff top secret? It just doesn't make any sense.

• 37:07Rasha Pecoraro?

  And that's exactly why, as convincing as David Morehouse's claims and as convincing as the patents are, lots of people don't buy the black ops theory. Like Lynn, many people believe the lights might be something out of this world.

• 37:23Yvette Gentile?

  It's not like the government's response offered a better, stronger, more plausible explanation for the lights.

• 37:29Rasha Pecoraro?

  But it wasn't just their responses at the time. In the years since, more information has come out that struck down officials' credibility. Let's start with a governor who witnessed the Phoenix Lights himself. In 2007, the now-former Arizona governor, Fife Symington, you know, the one who had his chief of staff dress up as a Martian? Well, he went back on his initial statement. He said that he had originally made a joke about the whole thing because he didn't want the public to panic. But he'd since processed what he saw 10 years earlier on the night of March 13th, 1997, and he was finally ready to admit that he believed it was, you guessed it, an alien spacecraft.

• 38:13Rasha Pecoraro?

  You see, Symington wasn't just a politician, he was also a former pilot. He said he knows about every machine that flies, and that what he saw that night was enormous and otherworldly.

• 38:27Yvette Gentile?

  And not to mention, there's no evidence that the Arizona Public Safety Department actually did investigate the lights, even though Simonton said they did back when he was governor.

• 38:37Rasha Pecoraro?

  Simonton's 2007 statements make me wonder if the federal government will come forward with a similar confession, especially because, according to the UFO Reporting Center, the Air Force didn't tell Dr. Lynn Keitai the full truth. Remember when Lynn made that series of frantic calls, including one to Luke Air Force Base? The woman on the phone there told her point-blank that the Air Force didn't see the lights. However, two employees at the base did raise alarm bells that night before Lynn even called, and the entire base supposedly went into lockdown.

• 39:14Yvette Gentile?

  And that could explain why the woman brushed Lynn off so hard. Obviously, she was hiding something. After all, if it was a black op, the employees probably would have known not to sound the alarms, right?

• 39:29Rasha Pecoraro?

  Agreed. But there's more. Remember when the National Guard chimed in and said the lights were just flares being used as part of some training drills? Well, UFO researchers did some testing on this, and they explained that flares don't drop in perfectly uniform formation, which is what we've been saying. One researcher even found that the brightness of the orbs remained totally consistent, whereas the brightness of the flares fluctuated. Basically, there's no way they could be the same thing.

• 40:02Yvette Gentile?

  And hello, that is exactly what we were talking about. I mean, even with all of these eyewitness testimonies and the data collected, there's one thing that stands out to me: that someone like Dr. Lynn Keitai would abandon her entire career to pursue this cause. I mean, it means that she genuinely believes in this stuff. And you have to think about it like this as well: that when she saw those lights, that it profoundly changed the course of her life.

• 40:41Rasha Pecoraro?

  It absolutely did. You know, for me, it's the sheer number of people, including Lynn, who saw the lights that night, and the fact that there's been no good explanation since. It's like Ashley said, "The Phoenix Lights are a skeptic's nightmare, but a believer's dream." If they were some otherworldly visitors, they clearly didn't mind if people saw them. Which leaves me wondering, how long will it be until they return?

• 41:23Rasha Pecoraro?

  This is So Supernatural, an Audiochuck original produced by Crime House. You can connect with us on Instagram at @SoSupernaturalPod and on our website, soSupernaturalPodcast.com. Join Rasha and me next Friday for an all-new episode.

• 41:41Rasha Pecoraro?

  So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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• 42:17Speaker 03

  I've been having a hard time trying to explain what Midnight Burger is. How about I let them give it a shot?

• 42:23Speaker 04

  Your podcast is amazing. It's such an amazing show altogether.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  You guys have actively ruined all other audio dramas for me.

• 42:30Rasha Pecoraro?

  You can't get people to understand the humaning that happens in this damn show. Keep doing what you're doing, because it's awesome. You might not think it, but you are far more important than you realize. Thank you.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  At the nexus of all things, there is a diner. Look for Midnight Burger on your favorite podcasting app, or just go to weopenat6.com.