I Accidentally Dated An OnlyFans Star

Post-breakup rumination is a familiar spiral. We replay the signs, question our judgment, and wonder how we didn’t see it coming. This week, Esther speaks with a man grappling with the lingering grief and betrayal of discovering that his ex wasn't exactly who he thought she was. Together, they explore the complex aftermath of a relationship. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi Esther, I'm 34 years old and I unknowingly dated a sex worker. I'm hoping you can help me answer questions and unpack some lingering thoughts about that relationship. I fell head over heels for this woman I met a handful of times in social settings over the course of about a year. After our first date, we spent almost every day together for months and I was crazy about her. I knew she did modeling and it didn't bother me, I knew that was a part of her life, but after an argument one day, she opened up to me and told me that she did something with OnlyFans.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  I asked her if she was currently making content or if that was in the past, she said it was prior to us dating. I wasn't thrilled, but I was trying to stay regulated and ask questions, perhaps more like an investigator than a curious partner. She described doing things, taking pictures and doing some other custom content that she couldn't remember.

• 1:10Speaker 00

  And then I became more upset that I felt like she was misrepresenting the facts to appease my emotions and manage my reaction. In hindsight, I think I was just naive and didn't trust my gut. We eventually broke up and had no contact for several months. And during that time of no contact, I let my prior inklings about her sex work get the better of me and after I deep dived down the internet rabbit hole, I found what I was looking for. Part of me felt kind of excited to see her posing nude and engaging in sex acts with another man. Maybe it was validating my own sexual competence or there's a voyeuristic quality about it, but it was also painful knowing that...

• 1:54Speaker 00

  She was actively profiting from that or engaging in that while we were together. It felt like a big betrayal and it felt like our relationship was built on this big lie. Later, we ended up reconnecting in a platonic way, but I chose not to tell her that I found out about the sex work, the OnlyFans. I don't know if I was trying to avoid being mean and calling her out like a gotcha. I don't know if I was trying to protect her or if I was trying to protect myself from the discomfort or not speaking it for myself. But then our attempted friendship ruptured even more intensely than our relationship had, and we have not spoken in about six months at all.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  I'm hoping that you could kind of give me some insight. I know I've experienced grief and loss in the past before, and perhaps that's part of it as well. I know I've been guarding myself from falling in love again, and that's something I'd still like to have in my future.

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• 4:39Esther Perel?

  I watch you listening. And while you're narrating your story, I watch your face narrate every piece of the story with different expressions, from smiles to sadness to tears to disbelief. A range. It was just like I wondered, what would it be like if I only looked at your facial expressions and didn't listen to the story? But I would have a sense of the arc, of where you started and where you ended. So you listen to it too. Tell me.

• 5:23Speaker 03

  It's interesting you say that because I felt that too. Especially in the beginning, it was felt very nostalgic and these kind of happy memories. And then as we come to the turn in the story, I noticed that kind of the sadness, the feeling of maybe betrayal or just... I could definitely feel my mood shift throughout, like hearing me tell the story, for sure.

• 5:50Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes.

• 5:52Esther Perel?

  Where do you wanna start?

• 5:54Speaker 03

  I think um I carry a lot of grief and sadness around that and anger. There's times where I, you know, feel angry at her, at myself. And I don't know if that's like feeling helpless or where that's coming from. But I noticed there can be an intense feeling of anger that comes up around this story when I recall.

• 6:16Esther Perel?

  And it grabs you where and it says what?

• 6:20Speaker 03

  It sometimes grabs me by the throat or by the chest. And it sounds like, how could you let this happen to yourself? And then the negative self-talk comes in of feeling stupid and feeling naive. And how did I let this happen to me? That's what it sounds like internally.

• 6:40Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, uh huh.

• 6:43Esther Perel?

  And it's you're stupid, just just to go into the granular of the self-talk. You're stupid for what?

• 6:52Speaker 03

  For.

• 6:53Esther Perel?

  You should not have let what happen?

• 6:55Speaker 03

  Um, and there are so many micro-stories within the story as well, right? Um.

• 7:00Esther Perel?

  Yes, so you you can fill in the blanks, cuz I don't I it helps me.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Definitely.

• 7:06Esther Perel?

  To know, otherwise it's generic.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  So there is anger in, I feel like, not honoring my own internal um trusting my gut.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  And not acting on it in in certain occasions um.

• 7:25Esther Perel?

  Like?

• 7:26Speaker 03

  For example, I had been seeing this person for a while. And I very suddenly got sick and I wasn't sure what was wrong with me. And uh she is a medical professional. So she was like helping take care of me and find different over-the-counter medications for me to take. And just, you know, making tea, making food I could put down, very being very sweet and doting in that way. And I continued to get sicker, sores in my mouth and couldn't swallow and fever and fatigue and all this stuff. And so I had other symptoms uh sexually too. And so I decided to go get tested.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  And I tested positive for HSV one, so oral herpes. And.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  When I had told her about, because I know for some people it's not a big deal because it's common, but I had never had that before and it was such a huge primary outbreak. And so when I had told her, her response was, you don't know you got it from me.

• 8:34Speaker 03

  And then continued to elaborate and then hearing her say, uh, start tearing up and saying, I'm so, you know, I didn't, I didn't know what to do. I didn't, I, you know, I felt bad and I didn't know what to do. And in hindsight, it just felt like, you know, you, you saw this happen to me and this is your line of work and you watched me get sick and you didn't tell me what was happening and you like took care of me while you saw me getting sick when you very likely knew what was happening and that just felt really shitty. And then I stayed through it too.

• 9:14Esther Perel?

  That was a betrayal.

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, that's just one example.

• 9:18Esther Perel?

  That was one of the betrayals. Yes, yes. And you, you, she, it, it came, the idea was it came from her, but she didn't tell you?

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, um, not prior, not during, it wasn't until after sharing the test results, yeah.

• 9:33Esther Perel?

  Hmm. So it's not just that she took care of you, is that she also knew what it was?

• 9:38Speaker 03

  I believe so, yeah. I think that's very likely.

• 9:41Esther Perel?

  Yeah. And so the question that you have is, because once you pound on yourself and you just say, I'm so stupid, there's not, there's nowhere to go, right? But you have a question, like,

• 9:55Esther Perel?

  when you say, I felt something and yet I proceeded. I accepted something that I wanted so badly that I didn't see the cracks.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  Or I noticed small cracks developing and decided that, oh, they may not turn into bigger cracks or, oh, we can just put some tape and glue on it and it'll be okay, or we can ignore them.

• 10:25Esther Perel?

  When you think of the glue, you think of witch crack. Cause you are bound with situations in your head and you keep going through them one by one. They come back and you kind of are ruminating, going through the rolodex of compromises.

• 10:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, especially that story I just told being one of the big, big early ones, yeah.

• 10:48Esther Perel?

  It's also one that leaves a legacy from her.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:52Esther Perel?

  That is now a part of you.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:54Esther Perel?

  And that makes her harder to forget.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, uh, she's part of the story.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  For better, for worse.

• 11:02Esther Perel?

  Hmm. So give me a sense of how the delusion works. The crack isn't really that deep. We can fix it, we can tape it, we can cover it up.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay, I can, yeah, okay. Let's see, um. When we had met a couple of times before that, um, she was very attractive, I found her very attractive. But then, um, we were.

• 11:30Esther Perel?

  And you say that as a way of saying, when I'm very, very attracted, my brain doesn't think.

• 11:36Speaker 03

  That's probably.

• 11:38Esther Perel?

  The same way?

• 11:39Speaker 03

  I think most men might agree with that too, but yes.

• 11:42Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  Or people in general, but I remember having a conversation with her once and just, she was incredibly intelligent and knowledgeable. And for me, that was also very attractive, just someone who's got, you know, brains. I was like, oh, okay, like, I like this, like, that's next to better. And when we started dating, it was just, she had all these great qualities. She was charismatic and intelligent and funny and we spent all this time together. And we had some shared hobbies that we would, you know, get to engage in together and that made it a lot of fun. And we, it turned out, um, we didn't know this prior until our first date that we were actually neighbors. Which is funny, so it made it really easy to spend lots of time together, um, frequently and for quite a period of time.

• 12:26Speaker 03

  And, you know, I think it was a lot of those things, uh, that made it enjoyable. And there was a time where she was my best friend.

• 12:37Speaker 03

  You know.

• 12:39Esther Perel?

  And now your face and your heart are feeling that.

• 12:48Esther Perel?

  So you feel like you lost your girlfriend and your best friend.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:54Esther Perel?

  Or a best friend.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:57Esther Perel?

  So tell me about the cracks that you don't want to see or that other needs supersede. Because you may have seen them, but there was other things that he wanted to see more.

• 13:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm flipping through that mental rolodex of cracks. Say which one next. And I have definitely played a part in it. It takes two to tango for sure. So I'm I'm aware of that. And there's times where I wasn't healthy and I stuck around and I was, you know, unkind and unhealthy as well. But another one that comes to mind just.

• 13:30Esther Perel?

  Before you jump, what are you saying when you say that? That's code language.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  You're right, it is.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  Let's see, and I think this kind of speaks to the anger too and the regulation piece for me. And this is, you know, I remember when we we broke up and I had texted her the next day and she said, okay, like, you know, you can, you know, we can spend some time together, but I don't want to talk about it. And so we kept spending time together and, you know, being not obligated to each other anymore. And I found out that she had moved on very quickly and was already sleeping with other people. And that felt incredibly hurtful to me.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  We had broken up, but it was still the, I'm still telling you that even though we're broken up, she's still telling me I love you and I care about you and saying all those things and then acting differently. So that to me, the words and the actions weren't aligned. So when I found out, I, there was no sense of, you know, tact or timing at all. I.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Confronted her in public and basically told her that it was, you know, don't call me, don't text me, lose my number. And that, you know, there was a big rupture and doing that in a public space was very unkind and uh just, it was just wrong and just felt, just reaction, just I just felt really bad about how I approached that. And so about a week later, I went to offer an apology and we had talked about it. And that's when our kind of long drawn out situation started.

• 15:22Esther Perel?

  So you came to do a, a novella?

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:26Esther Perel?

  A scene?

• 15:28Esther Perel?

  You had a, is that it? You had a scene?

• 15:30Speaker 03

  It has been quite a telenovela for sure. The scene, yeah, yeah. Um. It was kind of like the gotcha.

• 15:39Esther Perel?

  Did you think about what you were gonna do or did you just storm?

• 15:42Speaker 03

  Uh, I, I, very little thought went into that process.

• 15:48Esther Perel?

  Right, right. But I wanted to have the last word. I wanted to embarrass her publicly. I wanted the world to know that I had been hurt, that she was so quickly putting herself in bed with another man.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:03Esther Perel?

  When I thought that what we had was slightly more important than that, that I was so easily replaceable, that I was certainly not indispensable.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:13Esther Perel?

  And that I was far from unique.

• 16:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then it was that feeling and then it was also the, how can you say that you still love me and care about me in one breath and then do this in the next breath?

• 16:24Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:34Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 16:49Speaker 01

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• 18:53Esther Perel?

  So, shall we go back to the cracks?

• 18:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:56Esther Perel?

  Because the cracks is not your negative self-talk of "How do you let this happen?" Your cracks is your deeper needs that allowed you to lose sight.

• 19:09Esther Perel?

  And your history, like the last sentence when you say, "I'm not no stranger to grief and loss." And when we act in this kind of ways, like you say, what she said and how she acted was not aligned. You say, "I was misaligned. Something happened to me in this relationship." And maybe it's not the first time, but then we need to understand misalignments plural.

• 19:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 19:35Esther Perel?

  And maybe this one stood out differently from all the others. So I'm gonna listen for a moment, because you're a thoughtful guy. You've spent a lot of time thinking about this and you can

• 19:48Esther Perel?

  you can connect a lot of dots.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. And speaking to the grief piece too, I lost my brother about seven years ago to an accidental fentanyl overdose. And that has been a huge rupture in my life. And, you know, he was my only brother. He's my best friend. We're incredibly close, close in age also. And that loss has made it really just hard internally, just for me in navigating life. And it's made it hard to navigate relationships. And I wouldn't listen on anyone.

• 20:24Esther Perel?

  I'm so sorry to hear that.

• 20:39Esther Perel?

  What a loss.

• 20:43Speaker 03

  Yes, it's been devastating. It's torn me apart and our family apart.

• 20:49Esther Perel?

  And he was central to you when he was alive and he's central to you when he's no longer there.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:59Esther Perel?

  And where there are cracks with him as well?

• 21:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:03Esther Perel?

  Is that what made you go from her to him? In your mind just now?

• 21:11Speaker 03

  Possibly. I think it was when you mentioned that I was no stranger to grief and that was the... Yeah, that's the big one.

• 21:19Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 21:22Esther Perel?

  But it is because of the loss and the grief that you overlook the cracks?

• 21:28Speaker 03

  Perhaps, yeah.

• 21:31Esther Perel?

  And then you blame yourself because you feel like you overlooked the cracks with him?

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. I struggled with that for a long time where, you know, I... Why didn't I do more? It was how did I, you know, was it my fault? Or why couldn't I have done things differently? So there is a long time where I struggled with self-blame in that.

• 21:57Esther Perel?

  Could you?

• 22:01Speaker 03

  No.

• 22:02Esther Perel?

  No, okay. We're clear on that.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  Not really, you know, maybe a couple of things here and there, but see, there you go.

• 22:09Esther Perel?

  But we're clear on that.

• 22:13Esther Perel?

  That wasn't your doing? Or you still doubt?

• 22:19Speaker 03

  Wow. I haven't asked, I haven't thought about that question in a really long time. Logically, I know the answer is no, there's nothing else I could have done. But when you said that, there's this slight felt sense of maybe.

• 22:39Esther Perel?

  This maybe, I could have done more? And the sense of guilt? Sometimes I think it can be interpreted in various ways. One way is I feel guilty, I feel responsible, I take the blame, I could have done more, I could have prevented. But there's another side, sometimes I think that we hold on to that little part that says I could have done more? Because on some level, feeling guilty may at times be better than feeling helpless.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:18Esther Perel?

  Do you understand?

• 23:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:20Esther Perel?

  It's a strange thought, maybe, but...

• 23:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:26Esther Perel?

  I couldn't do anything. Sometimes it's worse.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:32Esther Perel?

  than I could have done something more.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  This is.

• 23:38Esther Perel?

  Does that resonate for you?

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember um starting therapy very soon after he passed and that conversation is now ringing a bell.

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:54Esther Perel?

  So make the connection between the cracks with him and the cracks with her.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 24:00Esther Perel?

  Or the grief.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  Um.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  Let's see.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  Okay, this I think would be useful for you to know. Um, one of the cracks, um, early on, we would, you know, go get drinks or go out for dinner or have a night in and maybe have a glass of wine. And I noticed that it was with her, it was never just a glass of wine with dinner. It was refill after refill from the time she got home until the time um it was time for bed. And um there were some similarities in terms of addiction. And I think part of that was a huge overlap and

• 24:51Speaker 03

  part of that was, I remember noticing that and just like, okay, maybe we're just not aligned here. And no ill will or anything, but then I think I tried to make it my job to like help her see or notice or I'm worried, I'm concerned, and it turned into that type of dynamic in part.

• 25:14Esther Perel?

  And the question that you have, the one that circles back at you, is what?

• 25:22Speaker 03

  The first thing that comes to mind, just in align with what we've been talking about is could I have done anything different? And logically, the answer is no. But it's not a feeling.

• 25:37Esther Perel?

  Could I have done anything different to?

• 25:46Speaker 03

  Could I have shown up differently? Could I have asked better questions? Could I have been more compassionate? Could I have, you know, helped her more? Could I have resolved conflict better and not gotten so hot-headed at times?

• 26:04Esther Perel?

  And I would get particularly hot-headed when?

• 26:09Speaker 03

  I think usually it involved jealousy or not feeling like I was enough. Or with all the effort I put forth, feeling just not recognized or valued.

• 26:27Esther Perel?

  And that is a feeling that was exclusive to her? Or you have known that in other relationships? Romantic relationships? You may not have it in your friendships.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  Nah, not to this degree ever, no. No, this was unique.

• 26:48Esther Perel?

  Yes, but you chose a woman who makes content where she exhibits herself to other men. So you're gonna get a different dose of it.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, that's a... I suppose that doesn't happen in a vacuum.

• 27:03Esther Perel?

  Talk to me about jealousy.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  I'm not sure where to start or how to start.

• 27:13Esther Perel?

  Jealousy usually involves a triangle in this context. Somebody else gets more.

• 27:25Esther Perel?

  Do I matter? Will I be left? Am I enough?

• 27:33Esther Perel?

  We envy things that we haven't had

• 27:37Esther Perel?

  and we are jealous about things we feel losing.

• 27:41Esther Perel?

  That's one of the dozens of ways to distinguish between them.

• 27:49Esther Perel?

  Jealousy is I don't trust. Therefore, I put surveillance in place to help me trust. But surveillance is about control and not about trust. Because trust is about dealing with that which you don't know and which is filled with uncertainty. That's why the word trust exists.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:11Esther Perel?

  The more I put surveillance, the less I trust, the more I need to put more surveillance. More the person that's with me often says, I need some air. And their need for air makes me feel like I choke. You've answered me with your head.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  Yep, so then let me push harder and then it just perpetuates the cycle, yeah.

• 28:34Esther Perel?

  Okay, so now shall we talk about jealousy in your own words?

• 28:42Speaker 03

  I think jealousy in part is it's seeing the effort and care you put forth not being reciprocated. I think that's one way to think of it. And then there's that jealousy that comes in of like, why isn't that coming back to me? You know?

• 29:04Esther Perel?

  You mean example?

• 29:10Speaker 03

  I think one example is just like, uh, just like not feeling enough. I mean, that's not specific, but just like one, I guess, an example of that would be like, why wasn't it enough when I would comfort her when she was feeling distraught and depressed and like nothing mattered? Why wasn't it enough that I helped support her through processing her divorce? Or why wasn't it enough when I held space for her while she broke plates on the ground? Why wasn't it enough that?

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Why wasn't I enough?

• 29:56Esther Perel?

  I gave, I held, I cleaned, I supported, and still it wasn't enough. And at that moment, you think, why am I not enough? Or do you also ask yourself, what would make it enough for her? And what does enough mean? And enough for what? Enough to stay? Enough not to leave? Enough, enough to what?

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Enough to...

• 30:33Esther Perel?

  To be loved?

• 30:37Esther Perel?

  Do you ever think that with your brother too?

• 30:41Speaker 03

  Not with the love piece, no. It's more of the change. And maybe I think that was part of it as well. How come it isn't enough for them to change? And I know you can't love someone out of addiction logically, but that's not what we're dealing with here. Why wasn't enough to help them or, you know?

• 31:00Esther Perel?

  Why wasn't I enough to help her see that life is worth living? Why wasn't I enough to help her stop doing content on OnlyFans?

• 31:14Speaker 03

  That part, she didn't, she didn't know that I knew about that.

• 31:19Esther Perel?

  Never?

• 31:21Speaker 03

  I don't think she ever did.

• 31:24Esther Perel?

  That would have been even better, that she could have stopped without even knowing that you knew just because you were so important, that it would make her want to change. Why wasn't I important enough on the drinking? Yes, why wasn't I important enough for her not to want other lovers?

• 31:43Esther Perel?

  Wasn't I good enough? Did they do it better?

• 31:49Esther Perel?

  What is?

• 31:52Speaker 03

  I think those are pretty good right there.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  And it's funny, because I've had connections since where I feel like the roles have been kind of reversed. And if I'm imagining it as I experienced it on kind of the flip side, sometimes it's just, I remember I wasn't in a place to want the same things they wanted romantically. Or there's times where they were just personal preferences that weren't aligned. Or, you know, it wasn't through any fault of the other person themselves.

• 32:30Esther Perel?

  And you use that to remind yourself?

• 32:33Speaker 03

  You know, not out loud like that just now, but I have kind of gone there to give, you know, some more compassion or understanding for another's experience.

• 32:45Esther Perel?

  No, I was thinking actually in reverse, that you have actually brought that understanding of the fact that it wasn't about them and made that become a source of greater compassion for you.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness. I've never, I don't know if I've considered it like that before. Wow.

• 33:12Speaker 03

  You know, just seeing the, um, the level of effort and engagement and kindness and generosity. I know I wasn't always reciprocating that to the same degree. But feeling that from someone else, it was,

• 33:31Speaker 03

  it was kind of hard to, well, I enjoyed it, but it also made it hard in knowing that I didn't, uh, the feelings weren't, um, mutual reciprocal to the same degree. And so just kind of realizing, oh, wait, that was me.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  And despite their best efforts or attempts or how they tried to care for me or love me, that I wasn't ready or willing or

• 34:03Speaker 03

  to give it back in the same way.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  And then applying that to myself.

• 34:12Esther Perel?

  Applying it to yourself is one thing, and remembering this the next time you break up with someone.

• 34:20Esther Perel?

  That doesn't mean people always believe it when we say it's not about you.

• 34:25Esther Perel?

  But sometimes it's exactly that. It's not about you, we just don't click, or it's not happening for me. But it's not because you're not enough. It's because I'm looking for something else. But what you are is just fine, and it will be exactly what someone else is hoping for.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  And I think now it's just finding the mutuality there. Being patient.

• 34:57Speaker 06

  We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astera's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

• 35:14Speaker 07

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• 36:02Speaker 08

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• 36:36Speaker 09

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• 37:23Esther Perel?

  Is the piece about OnlyFans important in the story?

• 37:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:28Esther Perel?

  Especially since you didn't tell it to her, but you went digging deep.

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I discovered that. And she never knew that I discovered that. I never told her that I did.

• 37:40Esther Perel?

  What made you go look?

• 37:42Speaker 03

  Just prior inklings, like, was I right?

• 37:45Esther Perel?

  But she had told you?

• 37:46Speaker 03

  No, she never told me that it was continued. She had told me it was years prior in a different location, you know, years prior. And then I had remembered just that feeling of not trusting that. So I remembered during the conversation, you know, it was kind of, I wasn't happy. I was kind of withdrawn and kind of like quiet and asking about it. And I remember her saying that it was not something that was currently happening. And she didn't remember exactly some of the things she had done. And that was the part that made me more frustrated was that, you know, I just want you to be straight with me.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  I think you'd remember and that whole thing. And then it just turned sour. But months later, while we weren't speaking anymore, I had kind of.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Just like, okay, like, I remembered that feeling. Maybe I was right, you know, in not trusting that. And so I had kind of

• 38:51Speaker 03

  done some investigating and um found what I was looking for. And I think that part was hurtful to be like, oh, no, I was I should have trusted my gut. I was, you know, right to not.

• 39:02Esther Perel?

  And then what? And then what?

• 39:04Speaker 03

  I know. And then what?

• 39:05Esther Perel?

  So you would have known that it still continues? And what did you find? I mean, you know, I should have known doesn't necessarily tell you what you would have done with the knowledge.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  Exactly. And then when we attempted to reconnect platonically, I still had that information and never disclosed it. Which I don't know if that's just as bad, not sharing that to give someone else the information to make an informed decision, whether they would want to continue a friendship or not. Did I withhold it to protect her? Or did I withhold it because to protect me?

• 39:38Esther Perel?

  What do you think?

• 39:39Speaker 03

  Part of it is, oh, at first I wanted to kind of like gotcha, but it's like, no, that's a dick move. I don't want to really do that, even though it would feel good and make me feel shitty later. Um, maybe it was just not wanting to rupture that connection again, but then it's still built on a cracked foundation of not being honest. I don't know.

• 40:05Esther Perel?

  And what bugged you is the fact that it went on longer or the fact that it existed?

• 40:11Speaker 03

  I think it's the fact that it existed or just the dishonesty around it. That was the biggest crack for me because then I didn't have the information to make an informed decision about how to move forward.

• 40:23Esther Perel?

  What does it represent for you?

• 40:27Esther Perel?

  So if she had told you it still continues, what is it that you would have to make a decision about?

• 40:34Speaker 03

  Whether to stay or go, probably.

• 40:37Esther Perel?

  Yep. But that's question you asked yourself all along.

• 40:44Esther Perel?

  That information didn't change that. Because part of why you stayed is because of the friendship, the humor and all of that. But part of why you stayed had to do with the deep attraction you had to her too.

• 40:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:58Esther Perel?

  If I understood that.

• 41:00Speaker 03

  She is the only woman in the room

• 41:03Speaker 03

  to me.

• 41:04Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 41:06Esther Perel?

  Alright. So, let's talk about the attraction and the sex, and the sex, basically. Because that's a piece of here.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:14Esther Perel?

  It's the sex with the other man, it's the sex, or it's the allure of other people looking at her, it's the excitement you felt when you went to look, it's the jealousy you felt. It's a combination of things that are part and parcel of this whole...

• 41:31Esther Perel?

  If you had been slightly less attracted to her, you would have been gone.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  Then that might be fair to say.

• 41:39Esther Perel?

  Good. One truth. Out.

• 41:45Esther Perel?

  Because part of why you don't stay with some of the other women often has to do with not attracted enough?

• 41:54Speaker 03

  Sometimes.

• 41:56Esther Perel?

  Yeah. Sometimes, not often, okay. But it's an important piece. It's always there.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:02Esther Perel?

  Yeah, okay. It's okay, I'm fishing.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. See what you catch.

• 42:09Esther Perel?

  See what I catch, exactly.

• 42:13Esther Perel?

  Because we can go in many different directions. But I sense that it's easier to go in the direction of the grief and the loss and the breakup than to actually... Because that's more familiar to you. If I take you into the kind of, the labyrinth of the erotic mind. And how all of that mixes in

• 42:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:38Esther Perel?

  with sex and desire and attraction and jealousy and masculinity and

• 42:46Esther Perel?

  all of that. Then it's a little more complicated.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:51Esther Perel?

  I'm also

• 42:54Esther Perel?

  tracking

• 42:57Esther Perel?

  how, for many of us, what is emotionally challenging.

• 43:03Esther Perel?

  Can also be sexually exciting.

• 43:07Esther Perel?

  What pains us emotionally can turn us on sexually.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  I think there are times where I'm very confident and, you know, flirtatious and can approach women in that way. And I think there's times where it ebbs and flows of feeling like confident and attractive and things like that. But I think you're also right in the sense of like,

• 43:32Speaker 03

  there, I don't know if there's a fear or a, you know, worry about cultivating a loving, nurturing, long-term relationship where, you know, it's more than just like the attraction piece. It's like the character and the values and the, you know, doing life with someone.

• 43:53Esther Perel?

  Have you had?

• 43:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:55Esther Perel?

  You've had it?

• 43:56Speaker 03

  Yes, we were together when my brother passed.

• 44:01Speaker 03

  And there are times that I still kind of feel guilt or give myself a hard time about not doing better. But we had, you know, we're planning a future together, talking about getting married, buying a house, like all that. You know, the white picket fence and all that. And there were already some, a couple of cracks there that were hard for us. But I think with my brother passing, I just, I spiraled and it just was so hard on both of us. And, you know, especially me, but then being together. My brother passed, I made it really, really hard.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  And so sometimes I worry about having something like that again. And whether, I don't know if it's the fear of messing it up or if it, you know, I don't know.

• 44:55Esther Perel?

  What did you just see? Or think about or remember?

• 45:02Esther Perel?

  Your eyes just went somewhere.

• 45:09Speaker 03

  I remember

• 45:13Speaker 03

  drinking heavily to cope afterwards.

• 45:18Speaker 03

  I remember her comforting me.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  While I was crying, lying in the shower, wanting to no longer be alive.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  And it wasn't that I wanted to die, it's just that it hurts so damn bad.

• 45:35Esther Perel?

  Hmm, of course.

• 45:37Speaker 03

  You know.

• 45:40Speaker 03

  And I can finally hear certain songs without crying.

• 45:45Speaker 03

  Years later, almost, four like, four years later.

• 45:51Esther Perel?

  She saw you in the shower and what happened?

• 45:54Speaker 03

  Um, she just held my hand.

• 45:59Esther Perel?

  But you're saying I was too bereft? And in too much pain to pay attention to the relationship?

• 46:08Speaker 03

  I think that was a part of it, for sure, yeah.

• 46:12Speaker 03

  And I think that came into this most recent.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  The conversation we've been having, I remember on the second date with this, that person, um, shifting gears now. I remember a song came on that reminded me of my brother and I chose not to change the track and I just had this lone tear kind of run down my cheek. And I remember she put her hand on mine.

• 46:38Speaker 03

  And I was just like, sold.

• 46:43Speaker 03

  You know, just like, you know, just someone being there and just being present and

• 46:50Speaker 03

  like, having that compassion, like, I care. You know, that was huge for me.

• 46:58Esther Perel?

  I actually, I was thinking when you talked, we're, we're less connecting dots and we're more walking on a beach of pebbles. And we're picking up little pebbles, each of them telling a little piece of the story.

• 47:14Esther Perel?

  And then we're putting them back and then sometimes we put them next to another pebble and so the stories connect and sometimes not because we won't have a chance to lift more pebbles than that.

• 47:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:28Esther Perel?

  But this piece about she held my hand in the shower. She put her hand on me when a tear streamed down my face when I listened to a song that reminded me of my brother. These gestures of tenderness run very, very deep. They run really to the place of I am enough. Someone sees me. Someone can hold my sadness, my fear, my vulnerability, my pain. They just hold it. They do nothing. They don't embarrass me, they don't shame me, they just put a hand on me and I continue crying.

• 48:13Speaker 03

  I think it's the feeling of just feeling seen and just being really vulnerable and not being okay and not, you know, someone not being scared of it or running from it and just being like, I'm here, I'm here through it. I got you.

• 48:32Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  You know.

• 48:37Esther Perel?

  That is hugely important for you. And lives on the other side of the jealousy. You don't scare me, you don't make me run away. I see you, I'm here for you, I got you is the opposite

• 48:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:54Esther Perel?

  of what we feel when we are jealous or when we feel bereft. I had a thought because we're gonna need to end.

• 49:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:02Esther Perel?

  Would you like to dedicate this session to your brother?

• 49:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, that would be great.

• 49:08Esther Perel?

  Go ahead.

• 49:12Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 49:15Speaker 03

  If I could say anything to you right now, it's just I miss you. I miss feeling your hugs and your handshake and hearing your laugh. There's so many stories I wish I could tell you. I'm sure you'd laugh at many and knock me upside the head for a few.

• 49:30Speaker 03

  But I don't think I'd be where I am now had you not left. It's been quite a journey of self-discovery and grief and mourning and trying to reevaluate my own life and where I want it to go and how I want it to look and how I want to feel it. And you've given me that gift in the most messed up way possible. But yeah, you really helped me become...

• 50:01Speaker 03

  You've really helped me become rather happy here, but thanks for that, man. Love you.

• 50:09Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 50:11Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 50:23Speaker 06

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

• 51:05Speaker 06

  And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 51:20Speaker 05

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• 51:58Speaker 10

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