*NEW* Body Language Expert: When You Do This You Look like A Loser...(Sorry But You Do)! This Is The Real Reason You're Still Single!

Can you make someone like you in seconds? Vanessa Van Edwards returns with the science-backed secrets of dating and likeability - tested in real-life dating scenarios for the very first time. Vanessa Van Edwards is the founder of Science of People, a platform dedicated to teaching the skills of communication, charisma, and leadership. She is the bestselling author of ‘Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication’. 00:00 Intro 03:02 How Important Is It to Master the Skill of Communication? 03:33 Are We Set in Our Ways? Is Charisma Genetic? 04:18 Different Types of Awkwardness in People 04:53 How to Make Friends – The 3 Core Friendship Values 06:37 How Do You Figure Out Your Core Friendship Values? 07:34 How Many People Has Vanessa Taught These Skills? And What Do They Want? 08:18 First Impressions 10:24 Profile Pictures 14:10 Add Cues for a Better First Impression 15:28 How Sunglasses Block Connection 16:21 More Good Cues for First Impressions 16:54 How Do I Make a Really Bad First Impression? 18:30 What We Need to Signal to Express Warmth 21:27 Breaking the Script 23:19 Master Communicators and the "Chemical Cocktail" 28:11 Online First Impressions 29:11 Be the Red Apple 30:17 How to Make an Impression on Zoom 32:08 The Story Toolbox 35:07 How Important Is Background on Zoom? 36:29 Where to Look on Zoom Calls 37:16 Date Experiments 43:09 Drivers and Passengers in Conversation 44:23 Micro Wins 45:05 Body Language That Indicates Attraction 49:35 Why Busyness Is Not a Mark of Success 51:16 The Jam Study – Too Many Choices 52:12 Prioritizing Self-Care Over Connection 53:08 Dating Checklists 54:23 Do We Get More Numb the More We Date? 55:32 Two Challenges If You're in a Funk or Feeling Lonely 58:26 Steve Being a Control Freak 01:00:14 Networking Events 01:00:55 Ads 01:09:20 Using the Word "Because" as a Leader 01:11:01 How Do We Know If Someone Likes Us? 01:14:20 What If You're Not a Funny Person? 01:16:09 Can You Learn to Be Funny? 01:16:57 Touch 01:18:10 Hacks for Being Funny 01:19:36 Channeling Other People 01:20:36 Microexpressions 01:21:37 Reading Fear in People's Faces 01:23:24 Seeing Disgust in People's Faces 01:25:09 How to Tell If Someone Is Angry Without Them Saying It 01:27:05 How to Tell When Someone Is Truly Happy 01:28:49 How to Tell If Someone Is Sad Even If They Don’t Say It 01:31:03 How to Tell If Someone Is Surprised 01:32:33 How to Tell If Someone Has Contempt Toward You 01:35:23 Can and Should We Change Our Personalities? 01:37:20 Steve's Personality Traits 01:38:49 Making Your New Partner Take a Personality Test 01:41:20 Conscientious People 01:57:05 Do Extroverts Have Better Immunity? 01:58:04 Personality Traits of Lifelong Singles 01:59:57 Should We Know Other People's Personality Types When We Meet Them? 02:01:38 Feeling Like the Vibe Is Off 02:03:31 What Are You Doing to Serve Others Follow Vanessa: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/4i5lvOnaqSb Website - https://g2ul0.app.link/6KQtfyqaqSb You can find out more about Vanessa’s personality test, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/SnXJL6ntqSb Conversation by Vanessa Van Edwards is a science-backed guide that teaches you how to master small talk, build instant rapport, and communicate with authentic confidence in any social situation. Pre-order now: https://linkly.link/2nCMM You can purchase Vanessa’s book, ‘Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/L0YqrVvaqSb The 1% Diary is back – limited time only: https://bit.ly/1-Diary-Megaphone-ad-r… The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb Get email updates: https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt Think like a CEO – join the 100 CEOs newsletter: https://bit.ly/100-ceos-newsletter Follow Steven: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Get your hands on the Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards here: https://bit.ly/conversationcards-mp Linkedin Jobs - https://www.linkedin.com/doac ZOE - http://joinzoe.com with code BARTLETT10 for 10% off Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  A lot of people do this on dates and it drives me crazy. Look, watch this.

• 0:04Steven Bartlett?

  Vanessa, yesterday you and my team did some matchmaking.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  Yes. Okay. So we had the very first date and I pre-coached the gentleman and I was coaching the girls via an earpiece and I was shocked by these dates. Please don't do that.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  This is why we're having a baby crisis. I got angry after this date.

• 0:24Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 0:24Speaker 00

  I was like, girl, we handed this guy to you on a silver platter. She was physically attracted to him and I asked her, would you like to go out with him again? And she said to me.

• 0:33Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 0:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And now we are missing opportunities for connection. The thing that's going to make us healthy, happy and live a long time.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  Vanessa Van Edwards has helped over 400,000 students crack the code on human behavior.

• 0:44Speaker 03

  Decoding universal body language and sharing science-backed secrets for better dates.

• 0:49Speaker 04

  Smoother conversations.

• 0:50Steven Bartlett?

  And bigger career wins. Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back. The first place I want to start is can we change who we are?

• 0:57Speaker 00

  They've actually researched this and every person on planet Earth has these five personality traits and they fall on a spectrum, high, medium or low. And they're somewhere between 42 to 57% heritable. For example, neuroticism, which is how you worry. And high neurotics, like me, produce less serotonin more slowly. Serotonin makes us feel calm. And so like I am having far more negative experiences than the same person in the room. And that's genetic, but there is 30 to 40% potential for change. You want a better relationship, you want a raise, you want a promotion, if you want more friends, the good news is anyone can learn these cues and techniques, such as decoding the seven universal micro-expressions we all do unconsciously, how to spot a liar, the number one mistake people make in a first impression and how to become a master communicator. Can I teach them to you?

• 1:40Steven Bartlett?

  Please.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  Let's start with.

• 1:43Steven Bartlett?

  I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the backend of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button, wherever you're listening to this. I would like to make a deal with you. If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see and continue to do in this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button, wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time. Back to this episode.

• 2:25Steven Bartlett?

  Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back.

• 2:28Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me back.

• 2:29Steven Bartlett?

  How you been?

• 2:30Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh, your folks are so kind. Can I just say, since the last interview, the incredible people have reached out and just been supportive and kind. They ask amazing questions, and so I'm just so grateful. So I've been really good.

• 2:45Steven Bartlett?

  Just in case anybody doesn't know who you are and what you do, you're gonna have to take me back. What is it you do and who are you?

• 2:51Speaker 00

  I'm a recovering awkward person, and I help other awkward folks learn how to communicate. I have books and courses, and I love helping very, very smart people share their ideas better.

• 3:00Steven Bartlett?

  Communicate online and in person?

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Oh, all of it, all of it. Slack, text, email, online, in person, on the phone. We can talk about vocal power, video power. You are communicating all the time, even if you don't realize it. And that's the hidden opportunity.

• 3:12Steven Bartlett?

  How important is it? Like, how pivotal is it and can it be for someone's life if they master the skill of communication, first impressions, and all of the things that you educate us on so articulately?

• 3:23Speaker 00

  It will get you everything you want. You want a better relationship? You want a soulmate? You want a raise? You want a promotion? You want a business? You want more friends? You want a support system? It will even get you longevity. That's how strong I feel about it. If you have incredible relationships and you're able to communicate your ideas so people like you and they listen, your life changes.

• 3:44Steven Bartlett?

  But is it not genetic? You know, like, are we set in our ways?

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Look, there are certain people, born out the womb, charismatic, great hand gestures, great eyebrows, right out the womb. There are those very unique people. But most of us learn charisma. Most really, really charismatic leaders, they've learned, ah, this nonverbal cue gets people to smile. Oh, this vocal power, people pay attention and lean in. And they've accidentally or purposefully learned how to hone their charisma. And the good news is, I think anyone can learn it. Anyone, no matter how awkward you are. Believe me, I'm proof, you can learn it.

• 4:17Steven Bartlett?

  You're proof?

• 4:18Speaker 00

  I'm a recovering awkward person. I was so awkward. I had a really hard time communicating with people. I was not well-liked. I had very few friends. If I can learn it, anyone can learn it, I promise.

• 4:29Steven Bartlett?

  It's almost impossible to believe that you were an awkward person.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  I promise. You know, also, awkwardness dresses up in different ways, right? So I think most people, when they think of awkward, they think of that stereotypical, robotic, unreadable, saying weird things. That was not my brand of awkward. My brand of awkward was trying to be impressive when I clearly wasn't, telling funny stories that were not funny. Talking too much. Shocker. Right, it was saying the wrong things and over communicating. I also had that Labrador energy, you know, like that golden retriever energy where I'm like, do you know what I mean?

• 5:02Steven Bartlett?

  She just stuck her tongue out.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm like super into people and that was awkward because people would be like, back up, it's okay. And that was awkward because it created, I was so over eager, I so wanted people to like me that I feel like, you know, I was leaning into everyone all the time. And that created awkwardness for people because I was trying so hard.

• 5:22Steven Bartlett?

  So many people write into the show or speak to me in the street. And it's so surprising that the thing, even if they live in these, you know, densely populated cities, the sort of most pressing issue on their mind is, I don't know how to make a friend. And it's funny because sometimes they say it to me in a gym and it's like, there's 300 people surrounding us right now and not knowing how to walk up and say hello or introduce yourself.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, but a lot of us, I think, have casual friends. We have like, you know, acquaintances, people, they know what we do, but then we don't know how to level up. Like, I believe that everyone should have core friendship values. Mine are, for me personally, respect, meaning they don't show up late, they respect my time, self honesty, I actually like honesty, but I prefer self honesty in a friend. I had friendships that didn't work for a long time because they lied to themselves about things and I'm not a liar, so I would be like, but he's terrible to you. And they'd be like, what? No, he's not. Self deception doesn't work for me. If that's a core friendship value, cannot do it. Do you know what I'm saying?

• 6:20Steven Bartlett?

  Self honesty.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  Self honesty, specifically. And the last one is depth. So, once I started going deep, I realized I need that. I cannot have a surface level friend. Like, I want to know, how is your marriage? But how is it really? Like, I want to go really, really deep. And if I sense that there's any kind of hesitation there, we're not going to be friends. So I think it's important to think about, yes, hobbies, great. Like, you want to do activities with these people, but what are your core friendship values?

• 6:48Steven Bartlett?

  And how do I figure out what my core friendship values are?

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Okay. Think about all the things that drive you crazy about your current friends. Okay? Okay?

• 6:59Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Think about friendships that didn't work out, that had a lot of potential, but like they, you just, they fizzled, you never quite had a good time with them, or friends that you get together with them all the time, but they still, they still wouldn't be a best friend. Why?

• 7:13Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Like, what is blocking, what is missing there? And it could be on either side, right? It's like, not all just up to them. So think about what drives you crazy. And then, like, what makes you feel healed? What makes you feel good? What makes you feel calm? What makes you feel like yourself?

• 7:27Steven Bartlett?

  Personal responsibility is a big one for me, I think.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  Ooh, give me an example of that.

• 7:30Steven Bartlett?

  Just like, it's a deep belief that you are in control of your life and you are in control of your outcomes. Because then, it's like, almost the antithesis of victimhood.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 7:39Steven Bartlett?

  And you don't want to be dealing with a friend who's chronically engaged in, like, victimhood, you know? So that was the first one.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  You want heroes.

• 7:45Steven Bartlett?

  And how many people have you taught this skill of better communication and better connections to in the last decade?

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh. Well, at least 400,000 students, who I can count. But millions more, millions more.

• 7:58Steven Bartlett?

  400,000 students?

• 7:59Speaker 00

  Yes. And it's actually probably way more than that, but that's just what we can count.

• 8:04Steven Bartlett?

  And what is like, the essence of what they're trying to get? Because obviously, a skill is a path to something that they want. What is the thing that they want?

• 8:11Speaker 00

  They want to be master communicators.

• 8:13Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 8:14Speaker 00

  They want to be able to ask for what they want and get it. If you are a master communicator, no matter what you want, again, if it's a partner or a business deal, you can get it if you can communicate well.

• 8:24Steven Bartlett?

  Can you make me a master communicator?

• 8:25Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 8:26Steven Bartlett?

  Let's do it, then.

• 8:27Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 8:28Steven Bartlett?

  The first place I want to start is with first impressions.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:31Steven Bartlett?

  And how one can make a great first impression. Because first impressions are like, I make them all day, every day. When I meet people on the podcast, in business, in the street, at the gym. Someone might listen to the show, they come up to me. So I'm constantly trying to think about how to make a better first impression. Because from the work that I've read of yours, they really matter, right?

• 8:50Speaker 00

  They really matter, they really matter.

• 8:51Steven Bartlett?

  How much?

• 8:52Speaker 00

  Our first impression is actually very accurate. They find 76% accurate with our personality traits. In other words, people can accurately guess, after a first impression, how extroverted you are, how agreeable, how neurotic. Actually, neurotic is the hardest one to guess. We can hide that really well. Openness and conscientiousness. We're pretty good at guessing that. Like, I can guess that based on just the first few seconds of interaction, which means they're lasting. So if you've made a bad first impression, it's hard to recover. I hate to be the bearer of that, but we can work on it. But nailing that first impression will set you up for a lifetime of success with that person. So it's very important that we don't throw them away. And this is the number one mistake people make in a first impression. They do it like this.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  Oh, hi. Nice to meet you. Looking down at their phone, or their iPad, or their computer, or their notepad, or their book. When we are looking down, it looks very much like the universal defeat posture. Universal defeat is when we tuck our chin to our chest. We usually have our very little space between our shoulders and our earlobes. We have our arms close to our sides. This, yeah. Don't you feel kind of horrible? You look horrible.

• 9:57Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, thank you.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Look. When you check your phone, every time you check your phone, you accidentally look like a loser. And I mean that literally in terms of losing and winning. So, in a first impression, you're waiting in the waiting room for a big job interview. You're waiting for your date, for possibly your perfect person. And what are you doing? Checking your phone.

• 10:17Steven Bartlett?

  So I'm sat there looking like a loser?

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. That first impression that happens in the first few seconds of seeing you, and this is another mistake introverts make. They think their first impression happens, starts the moment they start talking. No. Your first impression happens the moment someone first sees you. That's when they walk into a room, open the door, walk into a restaurant, or look at your profile picture. Profile pictures are even more important. They've found that people make a first impression of you within the first 100 milliseconds of looking at your profile picture. That's so fast that you barely even realize you saw a picture. But we are so attuned to look at someone's facial expressions, their body posture, what's visible, our clothing, our ornaments. And what's fascinating about this research is they found that different pictures of the same person can give different first impressions, which means we are in control

• 11:04Speaker 00

  of our first impressions. If different pictures of the same person, like if you have five different pictures of yourself, and you put them up on different LinkedIn profiles, people are going to make different judgments of you, which means you can control the kind of judgment you want to make by picking the right picture, but also having the right body language when someone first sees you.

• 11:20Steven Bartlett?

  Someone did a study on that?

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think Samin Vazir, I think, did this study. Yeah. Don't quote me, but I believe Samin Vazir does a lot on digital first impressions. And what's incredible is that small tweaks to your cues can have a massive impact on your impression. So, for example, I've played around with this on mine, where I'll have my hand in my picture. Like, there's a big difference. If you were to see me like this with my face on my hands, it's called a face platter.

• 11:46Steven Bartlett?

  OK, so for anyone that can't see you... You've got both of your hands out and your chin resting in the middle of them.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's called a face platter, right? Think of like my face on a platter for anyone who's listening. This is a very different impression than this. Like same face, face platter, warm, almost feminine, kind of girly versus this. Very professional, very competent, just that one difference. So all these cues are changing, especially if you're first impression happening on dating profile apps, on LinkedIn, in your email, like a little picture in email, your website. It is changing the way people treat you and think of you.

• 12:20Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so let me show you some profile photos.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  I would love to see.

• 12:22Steven Bartlett?

  And you tell me what they're giving.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  Oh, right.

• 12:25Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, what is this giving?

• 12:27Speaker 00

  Okay, so she's leaning her head to one side with her cheek on her hand. First, immediately, a head tilt. Head tilt is a universal sign of engagement and warmth. She's giving me nurturing vibes. Doesn't, don't you want to tell her all your problems? Like, I would guess she's a therapist or a life coach. She has a watch on, which is a good ornament for competence. So she's probably a therapist or maybe a psychoanalyst, probably has a degree. She also wears glasses. We like women in glasses and makeup for very competent. That actually ups our competence factor, but this is just the research, not my opinion. And she has a sweater tied around her top, and that's very conservative. So I would say warm and nurturing could be a grandmother, likely in a self-help profession.

• 13:07Steven Bartlett?

  Correct.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  So some cues there we can learn from is we want to balance out the friendliness, the warmth, the approachability with the take me seriously. So you take her seriously because of her watch and her glasses and her lack of a smile. Those are all cues of competence. We like that. We also like those cues of warmth, head tilt, hand on face, and a soft smile. So in that way, it's a perfect balance or blend.

• 13:34Steven Bartlett?

  What about this guy? Profile photo.

• 13:37Speaker 00

  Okay, so we are seeing a gentleman with no hands. So we see no hand gestures, just his face. He's also tilting his chin down and his forehead is forward. You also see a genuine smile. The best thing about this picture is he's doing an authentic smile because you can see those cheek muscles are activated, his upper zygomaticus. Terrible saying that, but these muscles are activated. So very likeable. Oh, yeah, like that. Good job, yes. I love this smile. So we love that authentic smile. So he's very warm and approachable. He's also making eye contact with the camera, slight head tilt. I would actually say this is very warm, almost too warm. If he is a doctor or a professor or someone who needs to be taken seriously. I don't know if I'd go to him with my problems. It's a lot of warmth for that photo. And by the way, I want to make this as helpful for folks at home.

• 14:20Speaker 00

  So think of your impression like a thermostat. You can dial up your trust and your approachability by adding cues. So if you want to add warmth or trust or likability, you can add a head tilt, you can show your hands. Movement is also one. So sometimes you'll see people who are leaning their head over to the side or even in the process of a walk. That's why all those photographers use wind. Yeah, it actually adds this weird element of warmth. If you want to dial up competence, power, if you want to be taken seriously, especially if you're in a career where you've been challenged or interrupted or not taken seriously or underestimated, you really want to dial up competence in your profile picture. Like the cover of my books, I am not smiling. And that is because I'm quite a smiley person and I want people to take me seriously.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  So I made a choice to not smile on my covers.

• 15:09Steven Bartlett?

  What about this chap?

• 15:10Speaker 00

  All right.

• 15:10Steven Bartlett?

  This is a dating app profile photo.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Look, I love it. Okay, this guy has a cat around his neck. And you know what? I love it. Why? Because if you love cats, you're gonna love this guy. If you hate cats, you're gonna swipe. We want to make people not like us with the ornaments we choose. Right? Like, I love when my husband wears a cowboy hat because certain people are gonna love it. Some people aren't gonna like it. He's gonna find his people. We're in Austin, Texas. So it would be weird if he wore it in London or something like that.

• 15:38Steven Bartlett?

  Dee, what'd you think?

• 15:40Speaker 00

  Okay, so I do not like sunglasses in photos at all. And the reason for this is because research shows that we can produce oxytocin, which is the chemical of connection, even through a lens. When you can't see someone's eyes, it puts a little barrier in our head of like, I don't know. I don't know about this person. And that's chemically your body being like, I cannot see her eyes. So I'm a hard no on sunglasses. This is like, she's very distant from me. Even though she has a beautiful smile, I can't see the upper cheek muscles. And I can't see her eyes.

• 16:08Steven Bartlett?

  Does that apply to real life too? The sunglasses point? Like, does it disconnect us from people?

• 16:12Speaker 00

  You know, I haven't seen research on that. I've only seen research on sunglasses in photos. So I'm gonna say in person, I think it's okay. But I will say, like, have you ever been with someone? And they like, take off their glasses to see you better. Does that ever happen to you?

• 16:26Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  It feels good.

• 16:27Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, like they can.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  If you want to show someone, I'm gonna really listen to you. Take off your glasses or roll up your sleeves. So there's also, we know this is a cue is like, let's get into it. I often see like leaders, when they're getting into the get into it part of their speech, they roll up their sleeves. Another one that I like is this one, rubbing your hands together.

• 16:46Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  So this is a universal get ready cue. If you are about to share something really, really good to your team, you want to go like this. Guys, I got something good today.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  You would like it. You would like it if we were in a team meeting.

• 17:00Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, okay.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  Right? You got, because it's a universal cue of warming up.

• 17:04Steven Bartlett?

  So going back then to first impressions. How do I make a really bad first impression?

• 17:10Speaker 00

  A really bad first impression?

• 17:11Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, so we'll do the bad first, then we'll do the good. You said that one of the worst things one can do is to walk up on their phone, on a device, et cetera.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Okay, so bad is taking up as little space as possible.

• 17:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 00

  Right? No space between our arms and our torso, no space between our shoulders and our earlobes. The second thing is hidden hands. So hands in pockets, hand to the table, hands not in shot. We like to see hands, especially right away. It makes us feel intention, right? We know what's gonna happen. So I'm like, hi, good to see you. I put my hands, a lot of my hands are in my profile pictures. That's a bad one, is hidden hands. And the last one is avoidant gaze. We really do like to make eye contact within the first few seconds of meeting someone. It makes us feel like someone's avoiding that oxytocin. It gives a chemical burst of trust. They even, you know, have you all do nose sprays full of oxytocin? And it immediately makes them share more, open more, connect more. Yeah, so we want direct eye contact, visible hands, and a broad body.

• 18:04Steven Bartlett?

  What about?

• 18:05Speaker 00

  I call it the triple threat, by the way.

• 18:06Steven Bartlett?

  The triple threat.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  That's the triple threat.

• 18:08Steven Bartlett?

  What about when sat at a table like this? Because I sit here for hundreds and hundreds of hours, listening to people.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:13Steven Bartlett?

  And I am, I've never said this before, but I'm always really quite conscious about my body language, because I don't want to signal the wrong thing. But because I'm thinking about so many things at once, I'm like, doing research while someone's talking. I'm reading my notes, I'm writing sometimes, I'm jotting something down. And I'm thinking about the next thing, I'm thinking about the edit. There's a lot going on in my head. I never want them to misconstrue it as like, a reflection on them. So what would you, how would you recommend that I conduct myself, whether it's as a podcaster or in a meeting when you're with a client or whatever, to signal that I'm? Warm and competent and all the good stuff.

• 18:48Speaker 00

  Okay, so first easiest one is you're always angled towards me. I'm so grateful that you don't have us angled at a V. So many podcasts I do are like that and it is very hard to connect with someone when they're like that. So you're already laying the groundwork of being aligned. In your office, right now, if you work in an office, move your chairs so they're not at an angle towards you. They're right at you. That's already going to set you up for success because I know we're on the same page, even if you're looking at something else. Then you want to think about 60% eye contact. It's very specific. In Western cultures, they find that the ideal, the sweet spot for oxytocin is 60 to 70%. Some East Asian cultures, it's less eye contact, so that's okay. But if you can hit that 60%, that's not 100%, especially when I'm making an important point.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  Like you'll often be doing notes and you'll look up at me when I'm making an important point. That's all I need to know, I got this, keep going. And then really powerful people make eye contact at the end of their point. So you could be talking like this, explaining this, remembering something. But let me tell you, at the very end of my point, that's when it matters.

• 19:51Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  And I think you actually do that pretty naturally. I don't know if you realize you're doing it, but if you're in a meeting or presenting or you're an interviewer, that's actually what matters more is that at the end of your sentence, you're sealing it with that eye contact.

• 20:03Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, because I look away, so I'm doing it now. I look away because I'm struggling with my ideas, trying to articulate them. And then once I've got it, I come back to you and make the point like that.

• 20:11Speaker 00

  Yes, and that actually is good. It shows me that you're processing. We know as humans that I cannot do complex math problems while making eye contact.

• 20:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  We can't do it. And so actually, it makes you look very thoughtful and pensive for the 40% you're not looking at me when you're gathering. That actually, leaders do that because they're showing I'm authentically coming up with the answer. It would be very weird if you were delivering 100% with 100% eye contact because I would feel like it was scripted.

• 20:38Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 00

  That's one of the reasons why I think. Presenters make this problem and I, whenever I watch like Shark Tank or Dragon's Den, a big mistake they make is they're so rehearsed, they don't break eye contact. And it gives you sort of a robotic feeling. So if you're practicing a presentation, you actually want to have a little bit of like ad lib in there. You want to be processing around because it shows you're authentically grabbing the information and that shows competence, right? Highly competent people, they don't need a script because they know their stuff so well. They can just grab it out for you. They can think on the spot. Low competent people are memorized. That is why like the TED Talks that we like the best, the pictures we like the best, they're basically having a really smart conversation with you and you like it. So I like that you're gathering away from me, that you're thinking of a question.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  The worst interviews I have are where someone is just beating me with questions and not thinking about it.

• 21:27Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  Okay, so gestures, eye contact, it's okay to make only 60% eye contact. That's the triple threat. The other thing in a first impression that I really like is breaking the script, right? I think in a first impression, it's okay to be like, hey, good morning. But when we do the, how are you? Good, how are you? Good, how are you? Good, how are you? And you get like that horrible like loop. I'm going to challenge everyone to try to break the script with how are you? So when someone asks, how are you? Don't say good, don't say busy but good. Try to answer with like a little bit of humor if you can. Now, I'm not funny, so we should take this advice with a grain of salt.

• 22:06Steven Bartlett?

  You are funny.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  But I'm not that funny. But there's a couple of things you can do. So one is you can answer with a number. So like, you laughed. I didn't even do it yet and you already laughed, right?

• 22:16Steven Bartlett?

  Seven.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  Most people say seven. I was going to say seven.

• 22:19Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Right? So if you're like, if someone's like, how are you? And you're like, mm, seven on the 10 scale, right? Like it just, it breaks the script a little bit. I also love when you say what you're wrestling with. So I might be like, just been fighting my inbox all day, but a good 10 out of 10. Like sometimes it's good to give like a little bit of context of like what you've been dealing with for the day. Or if you know that you look a mess, you can be like, better on the inside than the outside.

• 22:44Steven Bartlett?

  Better on the inside than the outside, okay.

• 22:45Speaker 00

  Right, like something that just gets people thinking a little bit. It kind of breaks the script and it makes for a very nice first impression.

• 22:51Steven Bartlett?

  So first impressions, make sure the conversation doesn't hit a dead end essentially.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  And, and break the script.

• 22:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, break the script.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  Break the script. So like, I'd rather you take a little bit of a risk and have some conversational courage to not do the script, right? Because then you're going to make a way better first impression.

• 23:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  And that also means not asking, how are you? But instead being like, what's good? It's like when I start a conversation, like anytime, I try never to ask, "How are you?" I try to say, "What's good? Anything good today?" It's a very subtle, subtle change on that. And it, it makes people think for a second in a good way. They're like, "Oh, yeah, what's good?" And it totally changes the nature of the conversation.

• 23:30Steven Bartlett?

  I've, I do this here sometimes. So when a guest comes in, the question that I always ask pretty much everyone that sits down is like, "What's front of mind for you at the moment?" Is that a good one?

• 23:38Speaker 00

  I like that one a lot. I would prefer, what have you been looking forward to? Are you looking forward to anything in your life?

• 23:43Steven Bartlett?

  Because, is that because it's positive?

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's juicing excitement. So like our, I think our job, if you want to really be a master communicator, is you are gifting good chemicals. You know that phrase, like leave people better than you found them?

• 23:56Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  I take that quite literally. I think master communicators are literally gifting beautiful chemicals to the other person. They're making people feel super full of dopamine. Dopamine is like very simplified, excitement, motivation, energy. They're gifting testosterone. You feel capable, you feel smart. Wow, you're good at what you do, right? And you leave feeling like, like I'm so good. This is for men and women. You're gifting serotonin, calm, belonging, you got this, you can be yourself with me. I give you permission to be yourself. I love you for who you are. Like, I think one of the reasons why people often verbal vomit on me, like they tell me everything about their lives, I think it's because I'm, I'm like trying to gift them serotonin. I want them to feel like they can be absolutely themselves and I accept them break exactly who

• 24:41Speaker 00

  they are. So serotonin, dopamine, and testosterone, if we can gift those out, I call it like the chemical cocktail. Like, that's the cocktail I want to give to everyone in my conversation. And that's what master communicators are doing.

• 24:51Steven Bartlett?

  And how would I give you all those things?

• 24:53Speaker 00

  Okay, so you break the script by just waking me up, right? Like, "This is gonna be different." Then you ask, "What have you been looking forward to?" Like, if you ask me what's been front of mind, I'm gonna probably give you a negative answer, to be quite honest with you. Have you, do you usually get negative answers to that question?

• 25:06Steven Bartlett?

  Negative or neutral, or it's typically something work-related. So they'll say, "My book tour, I'm trying to get this published," and blah, blah, blah. Yeah.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  And you're bored, aren't you?

• 25:17Steven Bartlett?

  It's somewhat interesting to me because I write it down and then I'll talk to them about it. But, I mean, if it was a social conversation, it wouldn't be interesting.

• 25:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I would argue, like, you would be more engaged if you got an exciting answer, even in this setting.

• 25:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 25:29Speaker 00

  So you're bored, they're bored. So. One, if you're like, looking forward to anything, got any fun plans coming up, those are all like gifting little bits of dopamine. Then capitalizing on any moment that I call it a me too moment. I have this theory, it's called thread theory. And it's this idea that in conversation, we are throwing threads at each other. So like, if we have a shared thing, I've thrown a thread, you get it and you pull it. And it's like, you're trying to get even more out of me. The more threads that there are between you and me, the more we like each other and the closer we get. Me too moments create serotonin. When I say, I like X, and you're like, what? I like X too. We're like, like chemically. And that makes me feel serotonin, makes me feel calm, belonging, I can be myself.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  So anytime in a conversation that someone says anything that you agree with, or you feel like, I have that too, you want to capitalize and be like, thread, me too.

• 26:23Steven Bartlett?

  How do you stop it feeling like you're making it about yourself, though? Because if you said to me, you've got a cyber truck outside. If, if, if you walked in and said, oh, I've got a, just bought a cyber truck. And I go, I've just bought a cyber truck.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  Okay, so there's a big difference between how you said it and how I said it. Okay, so I say, I just got a cyber truck. Oh yeah, join the club.

• 26:42Steven Bartlett?

  That's what you want me to say?

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:44Steven Bartlett?

  I wouldn't say it like that, though. There is a difference here because I'm British and British people are very like, we're very like, you know what I mean?

• 26:50Speaker 00

  You're so demure.

• 26:51Steven Bartlett?

  Is that what it is? Which is very, oh yeah, join the club. Could you imagine?

• 26:55Speaker 00

  I would have liked it.

• 26:56Steven Bartlett?

  You would freak out now you're saying that. You would like it because it's so weird, not because it's-

• 27:00Speaker 00

  I like weird people.

• 27:02Steven Bartlett?

  Is there anything else in the first impressions bucket before we move on to second impressions? And what I mean by that is really like, how do I then cement and invest in that relationship so I can keep it?

• 27:13Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Okay, so if you've made a good first impression, you are set up for success. It's great. If you're making a second impression because you weren't sure how the last one went, right? Or you want to kind of build on it further, your best bet is to show them how much they were on your mind. Everyone's number one worry in this world is, did I leave an impression? Am I memorable? That's what we want to know. So the very first thing you want to assure them is, oh, I loved our last meeting. I've been looking so forward to this lunch. Right? So can you assure them that you're so happy to see them? Talk to them, hear from them, say anything on the phone? Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you called. Like that warmth of you were right to call, you were right to text, you were right to show up.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Right? Like if someone texts me, I, of course, like not if I'm texting someone all day long, but if someone texts me and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad you texted. I will literally say that. I was just thinking of you. Right? Like, oh, I'm so glad you reached out. I always love our conversations. Like that immediate, you're good here is serotonin. That that's that belonging feeling of like, you're already safe. You're letting someone be themselves right off the bat.

• 28:21Steven Bartlett?

  What about online first impressions? Is there anything that I need to think about if I'm on? Cause so much of our lives runs on Zoom or Google Hangouts now.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Yes. Okay. So first can we talk about just like dating apps?

• 28:32Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  Okay. So they've actually done research on this. You are better off opening with a unique word or phrase than just hi, hello, how are you? So like, howdy, if you're in Texas, even if you're not in Texas, howdy, aloha. What's good? Anything that's not that hi or hello is a little bit different. It's going to make you stand out. So if you could.

• 28:54Steven Bartlett?

  Hey?

• 28:55Speaker 00

  Nope. You're defeating the spirit of the study here.

• 29:00Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  Like not a hey, not a hi, not a what's up, not a how are you?

• 29:04Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  But like, can you have like a, like a signature phrase or like?

• 29:08Steven Bartlett?

  Bingo.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  I would take it.

• 29:10Steven Bartlett?

  You'd take it.

• 29:11Speaker 00

  Bingo and then your inbox. They, they study this and they found that we're, there's so much noise. There's so much noise that if you can be the red apple. So this is a story when I was, I used to be a camp counselor when I was younger. That's how I made money. And I noticed this phenomenon during break where I would bring always a basket of fruit for break. And usually it was all red apples or all green apples. And I noticed if I had a basket of green apples and one red apple, every single camper had to have that red apple. But I would ask them, do you like the red apples better? And they'd be like, no, I just want that one because it's the only one. And I've never forgotten that in that I think that really special people, master communicators are the red apple.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  They're not oranges. They're still fitting in with everyone, but they're just like a little bit different. And that's, I think, how it should be both in business and also in romance is, can you be a red apple? Well, you're still the same. You're not like wacko crazy, but you're like a little different than everyone else. So like a bingo or a howdy or an aloha or a shalom or whatever it is. I think that it makes you stand out just enough where you have that kind of peak effect. The peak effect is like you peaked someone's curiosity a little bit and that that really works. That's why marketing campaigns that are a little different, they always work better.

• 30:28Steven Bartlett?

  And what about then on Zoom and other sort of business professional environments?

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Okay, so in Zoom and professional environments, please turn your camera on.

• 30:37Steven Bartlett?

  Yep.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Please turn your camera on. This sounds obvious, but more and more people are turning their camera off, especially if you have back to back meetings. But if you can have your camera on just for the first few seconds, it is a game changer for people's perception of you. So one is make sure that you are not accidentally negative. Here's how this happens. Can you see me? Can you hear me? Oh, oh, hi. A lot of Zoom impressions happen where someone is caught off guard or they're in the middle of like, can you see me? Can you hear me? And they're fixing themselves and then they make a first impression. No, your first impression already happened. It happened the moment your camera turned on. Remember, your first impression on video happens the moment someone first sees you, not when you start talking. So your first impression is usually, hey, morning.

• 31:23Steven Bartlett?

  So you raised your hand there?

• 31:24Speaker 00

  I always, I always give a wave or a hi. I make sure my camera is at least three feet away from my nose. Like I literally have measuring tape to make sure I'm not too close. I make sure that my body is angled towards the camera. And then usually I have a question ready. And here's why. In person, it's so much easier to make conversations, especially around context or like, oh, you know, was it easy getting here? I loved your cyber truck. Very hard on Zoom. And so what happens is you get on, you go, hi. Hi.

• 31:52Speaker 00

  Weather good where you are? It's like, it's so awkward. Be ready. Be ready with an anecdote or a question. I like an anecdote. So if you've done anything good, interesting, seen anything good or interesting, I want you to be ready to share it. It sounds like this. Hey, morning. Oh, my gosh. I just discovered the best breakfast taco in Austin. Best breakfast taco in Austin. Have you ever had a breakfast taco? Whatever. But like, I was ready to go with that anecdote. I think that that's how we should pre-start all of our radio calls, is like some small anecdote or story. And that also helps in conversation. Like, I believe everyone should have a story toolbox. So in conversation, there are certain topics that will always come up.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  Weather, traffic, and where you're from. So here's my challenge. This is what master communicators do. Whenever those three topics come up, I want you to have one story about each of them. It could be a trivia. It could be a story. It could be a fact. That you're ready to go to shift the conversation away from boring weather to something really interesting. When someone asks, where are you from? You should say, oh, I'm from Los Angeles. Interesting fact, interesting story. That little interesting story, like someone the other day said to me, oh, I'm from this place in, maybe Liverpool.

• 33:06Steven Bartlett?

  Liverpool.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  And he said, oh, it's where Banksy's from. And I was like, oh. And we had a whole conversation about Banksy. And I was like, that was it. He said where he was from, but instead of being Liverpool, I'd be like, cool, never been there. He was like, Liverpool. It's supposedly where Banksy's from. I was like, really? But don't we, do we even know who Banksy is? And he's like, well, we don't know, but he could have been in my high school. We had a whole fun conversation about Banksy. And I asked him afterwards, I was like, do you always share that comment? And he's like, yeah, because it creates the most interesting conversation. So when you say where you're from, have an interesting fact or interesting story. I read a book about traffic, literally to have interesting stories about traffic. Like, for example, in Los Angeles, everyone says the 101, the 5, the 10. That's the only place in the world where we say that. So sometimes I'll even, like, someone will be like,

• 33:52Speaker 00

  oh, traffic. And I'll be like, oh, so are you a the person? Do you say the? And we get in a whole conversation about. So like I have little things that create a little bit of juice and I'm always rotating them out. So in your phone, create a note called Story Toolbox and have the topics that typically come up in your conversation and start saving little stories for them.

• 34:12Steven Bartlett?

  It is the same stuff. It's like 80, 90% of the time, it's the same stuff. It's the same questions. How are you? Where are you? How's the weather? Traffic?

• 34:19Speaker 00

  I'm constantly adding to that Story Toolbox and I'm rotating out my facts and trivia because I get bored.

• 34:23Steven Bartlett?

  What if you like stumble across the same person twice and you don't realize you've hit them with the same story? Because if you, if we do.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  But I don't talk to the same people again.

• 34:32Steven Bartlett?

  If we did a couple of Zoom calls and you kept coming on going, are you a the person? Or I'd go, wait a minute, like.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  No, if we were doing regular Zoom calls, you would know that I'm probably going to ask you what's good and you'd probably be pre-thinking about what's good in your life. Like I have a friend who always asks, what are you learning? And whenever I go hang out with him, I make sure I'm learning something. Like it actually preps me in a good way. So you would know me for certain questions and that would, I think, my, my experience is when you're known for asking better questions, people actually come into the conversation more excited with better expectations to interact with you. So like be known for it. Like, fine, be known for the traffic trivia. Or like, worse comes to worse. Someone says, oh yeah, the, the thing, we talked about that last time. And I'd be like, oh my gosh, yes. And then I forgot you're from Ohio. Great, I remember you.

• 35:18Steven Bartlett?

  How important is the background?

• 35:20Speaker 00

  On your Zoom videos?

• 35:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  Pretty important. I also have a thing against like blurred out fake backgrounds. I don't like when people use a fake background. I think there was actually some Harvard Business research on this, but it was during COVID. So it kind of changes, you know, the, the research. But as a human, we get very distracted by fake backgrounds. So please think twice about blurring out your background or putting a fake background around you, like, you know, one of those backdrops. The, the eye, it's like a green screen. You know, when you see on a green screen, your eye is like, something is not right. People will perceive you as more inauthentic. I would much rather you have conversation cues behind you, right? Like, you have the most wonderful bookshelf of cues and captivate up there, right? Like, my books, which I love. And you rotate those books out.

• 36:04Speaker 00

  So as I'm talking, if I wanted to make conversation with you, I could be like, oh, my gosh, yes, Peter Attia's book Outlive is so good. Did you like it? What was your biggest takeaway from that? Or like, it gives me gifts of conversation. I also noticed, like, one time I was looking at Kevin Hart. He was on a Zoom call, and his background was all of his favorite comedians behind him. And it was like a great conversation starter. And he even had, one of the comedians behind him was like, holding up his hand like this, like, literally in a permanent hello. And I was like, oh, my gosh, like, Kevin Hart doesn't even realize he's doing the best nonverbal cue there is, which is palms. Like, we love a palm.

• 36:39Steven Bartlett?

  And what about looking at the camera versus looking at the face of the person?

• 36:45Speaker 00

  So I try to make them as close as possible. So like, just physically speaking, if you can try to make your camera and your, and the person as close as possible, it's gonna help you be more authentic, right? So like, my, my screen is not over here. I see some people will have the mistake of, they're like, you know, they're off to the side, and then like, kinda looking over their shoulder at the camera. Please don't do that. So I have my, even like, propped up, so like, your face would be very close to the top of the camera. If you can get 50% eye contact with them and 50% eye contact with the camera, I'd be very happy. Research does show that we can get oxytocin through a screen.

• 37:16Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 37:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Even though it's not real, our brain is still sort of, oh, yeah, they're, they're looking at me, they're talking to me, they're not hiding anything. So 50/50 if you can do it.

• 37:26Steven Bartlett?

  Now, we were talking a second ago about first impressions, then second impressions, but also dating, profile photos, yesterday or the day before. My team here took you to a bar in Austin, Texas, and you met two different couples that were going on a first date, and your job was to coach them both so they had success on that date. And on that first date, one member of the couple had an earpiece in, so you could speak to them directly and give them advice on what they should do. We're gonna play some videos for anyone that's able to watch, but you give me the context on what, what happened and what you observed.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  I was shocked by these dates. I was shocked because every single person except one hid their true feelings, and that did not serve them. So we had the very first date, and they were very well matched, by the way. Like, I liked both of them. What was shocking about this date, though, is the female, Ashley.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  I could not tell if she liked him. I literally had no idea. And I was in her ear. So I was whispering in her ear, things to say and to ask. I was giving her all the warmth because she looked very cold. You would never have known she was into this guy. You would not have known. She said, oh, yeah, I'm really physically attracted to him. I said, what? You didn't act attracted at all. And her questions were all very fact-based. What I wanted her to do is bring in more warmth. So we can watch it if you want.

• 38:46Speaker 05

  That's what she did.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  See? Are you ready to meet your lady? Are you ready?

• 38:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  OK, so what is going to be your opening line? We had to prepare our conference starters because we can't do a

• 38:57Speaker 05

  Really?

• 38:57Speaker 00

  How are you? How are you? We can't do that.

• 39:00Speaker 05

  What if I started with a who are you?

• 39:02Speaker 00

  OK, that breaks the scripts. I like it.

• 39:04Speaker 05

  That, I mean, yeah, that's like, what?

• 39:05Speaker 00

  Can I give you another one, though? Can you consider?

• 39:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  What's been good? And remember, that's good also, the same tip. If you're going to see someone in a grocery store, someone in the park. Like, what's the opener when it's cold? Right? So like, I don't like a how are you? I don't like a what's up doc.

• 39:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, weather's great, right?

• 39:19Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 39:20Speaker 05

  No, I know.

• 39:21Speaker 00

  No. No, so like, what's been good or like, what feels good to you? If you see something you like about her, feel free to authentically compliment. If, right?

• 39:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  If you're like, oh, my gosh, you look beautiful. You know, like, that's a good one. So I think you can ask, like, what's a goal you're working on? Like, cash, still a little bit. Because they'll say, I mean, what do you, are you think you're going to be in Austin forever? That's a very casual way of being like, what's your five-year plan? My goal is, a little bit of depth. I know you can make friends with anyone, but I want you to see if there's like an actual connection there.

• 39:48Speaker 05

  OK.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  OK, and then to see if it's, if you want to connect with her, I want you to ask her at the end of the date. Yeah?

• 39:54Steven Bartlett?

  So what did you observe there when you watched it back?

• 39:56Speaker 00

  OK, so do you see he got nervous?

• 39:58Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, his body, like, he was, ah.

• 39:59Speaker 00

  Oh, because I knew it's easy for him to make friends with anyone. And very likable men sometimes have really a hard time getting serious relationships because they're so likable, they can make friends with everyone. They get confused about where the, where the depth is.

• 40:12Steven Bartlett?

  Is that a bit of a defense mechanism as well?

• 40:15Speaker 00

  It's a defense mechanism, and it's also what he's good at. We want to do what we're good at, which is, you know, making a chit chat. And a lot of people do this on dates. They'll be like, where are you from in Austin? No, that's the wrong question. What you ask is, what are your favorite secret spots in Austin? What do you love about Austin? What are the most underrated restaurants in Austin? That is breaking the script. And that happened to them on this date. There was a good five or 10 minutes of boring fluff because they were on that. And I was like, get to the deeper questions. So when you're asking these questions, to prepare ahead of time, what's the most underrated thing? What's your favorite thing that would have been better? But he got very nervous when I started, when I challenged him on depth.

• 40:51Steven Bartlett?

  So the next video is them meeting. Feel free to pause it if there's anything pertinent or anything interesting you want to show me.

• 40:57Speaker 05

  What's your favorite spot to go to around here, though?

• 40:59Speaker 06

  Um, to be honest, I don't go out very much.

• 41:03Speaker 05

  OK, nice. What do you do?

• 41:05Speaker 06

  I...

• 41:06Speaker 00

  OK. She...

• 41:08Steven Bartlett?

  If someone said that to me, I'd assume they weren't interested in me.

• 41:11Speaker 00

  Exactly right. OK, so this is called dream killing in conversation. When someone asks you a question and you shut it down by saying, "I don't do that, I don't like that, I don't want that", with nothing else left, like she just stopped. "I don't..." To be honest, I don't really go out that much. And he said to me afterwards, "That's the thing I'm most nervous about", is that she sort of shut that down. So when you don't like something, don't dream kill the conversation. A better way to answer that would be, "You know what? I do love to be in my jam jams at home, on the couch, watching Netflix. But for the right occasion, I can get out and party sometimes." That would have been a better way to answer that question because it's a little bit playful and it's not totally dream killing his charisma. And watch this, she's gonna act like she's not interested at all, but she's actually very attracted to him.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  She said that to me.

• 41:58Speaker 06

  Work?

• 42:00Speaker 06

  A lot? OK. Tell him something you love. Tell him something you love. What do I love? What do I... What do I love? What I love to do? Work out, be outside, be active.

• 42:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, these are waters.

• 42:12Speaker 06

  Oh, OK. Yeah, I was like, I don't know what this is.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  Always, always do a cheers. Cheers, Stephen.

• 42:20Steven Bartlett?

  Cheers.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  Cheers, cheers.

• 42:22Steven Bartlett?

  What does that do?

• 42:23Speaker 00

  OK, cheers.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  It immediately warmed her up. She was very, very stiff in this. And I was like, I said to her in her ear, by the way, he did not know. Kendrick, poor Kendrick, he still doesn't know that I was, we never told him. I never told him.

• 42:38Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  Surprise. He didn't know that I was in her ear whispering. She was so stiff, I said, tell him what you love. Because I was trying to get her to show any kind of warmth or excitement at all. Because she was so stiff. And then she still, she was like, what do I love? I work out?

• 42:53Steven Bartlett?

  I just can't believe that she actually liked him.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:56Steven Bartlett?

  Because everything about her is giving, I can't wait to leave.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  This is why we're having a baby crisis. Is because we're afraid to show that we like someone. She was physically attracted to him and into him. You would never know it. I was the one saying cheers him, say what you love, ask him about his family. And so I think that this is a crisis because we think we're being obvious. We are not being obvious. Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 06

  I don't know.

• 43:21Speaker 05

  I know, I was just sitting here like, this is a Tuesday, which is crazy. How long have you been in Austin?

• 43:27Speaker 06

  Two years.

• 43:29Speaker 05

  Okay. What, no, that's great.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Right, like, that's why that didn't work. You just heard it. That's why I don't want you to do on a date. It's a conversational dead end. No numbers questions unless you are absolutely desperate for conversation. You're willing to ask a follow up. But it was like, how about you? Horrible.

• 43:47Steven Bartlett?

  How long you been in Austin? She went four years. And then there was a gap. She had no intent at all of asking a follow up question.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  Right, no intent at all to ask a follow up question. And he didn't know what to do with it.

• 43:56Steven Bartlett?

  It's funny because when I watch this, I think he really likes her because he's leading the conversation. And she's just hitting the ball back.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  That's right. But actually, she was very into it. She just didn't know how to hit the ball back. Right, so if you're gonna be in conversation, you want to be a master communicator. By the way, there are drivers and passengers in conversation. This is what I'm researching right now. You actually don't want all drivers. You don't want two people asking all the questions. But you have to be a good passenger. But she should have said two years. But actually, I feel like Austin has changed so much in the last two years. Have you noticed that? Have you been here for a long time? Like, she should have added one more thing to not dream kill.

• 44:31Speaker 05

  Uh, like three years?

• 44:33Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 44:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm from Ohio.

• 44:35Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 44:36Speaker 05

  Like the Akron area.

• 44:37Speaker 06

  Okay. So ask him, what do you love about Ohio? Do you miss Ohio?

• 44:41Speaker 05

  No.

• 44:41Speaker 06

  No.

• 44:41Speaker 05

  Not really. I mean, I'll go back, my whole family's there, right?

• 44:44Speaker 06

  Can I ask how old you are?

• 44:46Speaker 05

  Uh, guess.

• 44:47Speaker 06

  Oh, okay. Guess thirty. Um, thirty?

• 44:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:51Steven Bartlett?

  Why did you say guess studying?

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Okay, so I was giving her a micro win. So she, remember, we're trying to gift dopamine, serotonin and testosterone, very simplified. It was not going great, right? I was watching and this is like, oh my God, we're talking about Akron, Ohio. We're in trouble now, right? So he tried with her. So I knew if she guessed right, it would like make her feel good. And I needed her to feel good so she would start driving. She would start driving the conversation. So that's why I made, I told, I knew his age.

• 45:18Speaker 05

  I'll be 31 in like a week.

• 45:19Speaker 06

  Okay, I know you're not supposed to. Oh, wait, you're burnt, so you're in Aries.

• 45:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 06

  I'm in Aries too.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  A me too moment.

• 45:26Speaker 05

  They set this up on purpose. They literally did, yeah.

• 45:30Speaker 06

  Wait, so what day is your birthday?

• 45:32Speaker 05

  April 1st.

• 45:33Speaker 06

  Okay. Oh, I'm March 29th. What are you doing?

• 45:35Speaker 05

  Are you serious?

• 45:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 45:36Speaker 05

  I think that's my mother's birthday.

• 45:37Steven Bartlett?

  What's her body language giving here?

• 45:40Speaker 00

  Very closed.

• 45:41Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  And in, I'd never done this before. I wanted to say to her, open up, laugh more, touch your lips, touch your hair. There's a lot of things that women can do to show I am feeling physically attracted to you. But I was like, oh, like I wasn't sure she was physically attracted. So here I am thinking, is she physically attracted? If she wanted to show him, I'm into you. She could have touched her hair. She could have touched her lips. She could have touched the side of her face. All of those are gestures of like self-touch that show interest. But she didn't show any of that. She also was, I see how tight, see how little space she's taking up? Defeated body language, let's say. So very, very closed off. We are gonna be in trouble if we can't show that we like someone. I also want you to notice, as soon as they had the me too moment, the thread theory,

• 46:26Speaker 00

  they both warmed up.

• 46:27Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, they did, yeah.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Like, once we get a me too moment, it's like so much faster to laugh more. She actually like literally physically relaxed.

• 46:35Speaker 05

  Cause we, I love dancing and they like always have a DJ. It's more like clubby rap music here.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  Say, I love dancing.

• 46:41Speaker 06

  I love dancing.

• 46:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, I love throwing ass, that's what I.

• 46:43Speaker 00

  She was gonna let that go. But I was trying to give her a thread. I love dancing and also I'm trying to get her to say love. So a lot of the questions I were like, what do you love about Ohio? Do you love dancing? Like, when you use more words like that, you're actually queuing for that. I think we talked about last time that when you use, like, when they had people split up into Wall Street and community, people who were told they were playing the community game, actually acted in a more communal way. When you use words like love and excitement and good and looking forward, you actually create those feelings. So on a date, you want to be using the words that you're trying to create, especially because she actually felt something. She liked him a lot.

• 47:20Steven Bartlett?

  But even beyond a date, right? In a professional context?

• 47:22Speaker 00

  Yes, then it would be like, let's have some wins. Like, what's good? Right, you're trying to have efficiency and productivity and trust and collaboration. If you want to have a collaborative meeting, literally in your calendar, call it collaboration meeting. If you want to say, hi, team, every time you say team, you're priming for team. Right, so those words really matter.

• 47:42Speaker 06

  I'm, I'm kind of like, like a early bed kind of person.

• 47:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, I love that. I, I'm not. I like, I could be.

• 47:51Speaker 06

  Like, every night or just like the weekends?

• 47:55Speaker 05

  I'm extremely extroverted, it's like, absolutely. Let's go. And then it's like, I'm so tired.

• 47:59Speaker 06

  Yeah. I'm extroverted and introverted. Like, once I'm out, like, I'm not, I'm probably not going home.

• 48:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 06

  But then it's like, I also love my, like, alone time.

• 48:11Speaker 05

  I'm learning to love it more.

• 48:12Speaker 00

  Okay, so do you hear she's using vocal fry? When you use closed body language, it affects your voice. So vocal fry is when you're like, I love going out and I kind of love, right? So she started to go into a little bit of vocal fry here, which is not attractive. We do not like vocal fry.

• 48:25Steven Bartlett?

  Why is she doing that?

• 48:26Speaker 00

  I think she's doing it because she's so closed. It's very hard to get good vocal power when you're that closed. Right? So you can hear it here?

• 48:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:33Speaker 05

  Wake up and it's next week.

• 48:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:36Speaker 05

  Yes. Who did that?

• 48:38Speaker 06

  But then it's like, I also love my, like, alone time.

• 48:42Speaker 05

  I'm learning to love it more.

• 48:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:44Speaker 05

  We can still go get a drink if you wanted. If you're not busy. Or go another day after your birthday.

• 48:50Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 48:50Speaker 05

  If you're interested.

• 48:51Speaker 06

  We can do that after my birthday.

• 48:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:53Steven Bartlett?

  Can I ask a question on that?

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:54Steven Bartlett?

  He seemed to bottle it there. He, he said, we can go get a drink if you want to, if you're interested. Or we can go.

• 49:02Speaker 00

  But I, I, it's because she didn't immediately be like, yeah.

• 49:06Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  No, I got a little angry after this date. Tell me you'd love, you'd love to go out.

• 49:11Speaker 06

  Yeah. No, I would love to go out when I get back.

• 49:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:17Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 49:17Speaker 05

  Let's make it happen.

• 49:18Speaker 06

  That's in about forty-five days.

• 49:21Speaker 05

  Because you're going to Europe.

• 49:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, for thirty days. Maybe something sooner?

• 49:25Speaker 05

  Are you leaving, uh, like right on your birthday?

• 49:28Speaker 06

  No, I'm leaving on the twenty-first, but that's in ten days and I haven't finished booking the whole entire trip.

• 49:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, I had to run those numbers.

• 49:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 49:37Steven Bartlett?

  She rejected him.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  I was real mad after the state because I asked her, are you attracted to him? Yes. Did you like him? Yes. Did you have fun? Yes. Would you like to go out with him again? I'm real busy.

• 49:53Speaker 00

  I was like, girl, we handed this guy to you on a silver platter. He's fun, you're attracted to him, and you're too busy? Busyness is not a mark of success. Busyness is going to prevent you from finding your person. And this is a problem we have. We're so busy with our self-care rituals and our workouts and our work that we are missing opportunities for connection. And connection is the thing that's going to make us healthy, happy, and live a long time. We have to stop saying we're too busy to connect with good people.

• 50:21Steven Bartlett?

  Was she actually too busy, like, or is she scared or something? Because I just don't understand that.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  I literally think she thought she was too busy. And I was like, get your priorities straight. And so this is not even if you're looking for your person. I also see this with friendships, friends where we we put our friendships last. But actually, if we were having a hard moment or a health crisis, who do you want? Your support system and your friends. We have to start prioritizing the connections in our life, especially with good people. And so I, it made me angry because I thought this could be a great person for you.

• 50:53Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what's really wild is had they met in a village a hundred years ago, they'd be married.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  Married, babies.

• 51:00Steven Bartlett?

  But I guarantee if you hadn't intervened in this situation, and this wasn't, if you weren't sort of coercing them to like, to hang around with each other, they'd never see each other again.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I said after, after the mics were off, I was like, go get him. Girl, go get him. And they did, and they sat in the bar, and they chatted for the entire hour, and they walked out together.

• 51:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, they left together, right?

• 51:20Speaker 00

  By the way, let's get some D A O C babies.

• 51:22Steven Bartlett?

  I know.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  Let's get some babies. I will be an officiant at the wedding. We can do it together.

• 51:27Steven Bartlett?

  I imagine, imagine if they, but it's so, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. We were talking about it as a team, I was saying, one of the issues I think people have these days is we just have too many options.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Too many choices. Yeah, so jam study.

• 51:38Steven Bartlett?

  Too many choices. Do you know the jam study?

• 51:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. You have, you have, you know, 20 jams on a table.

• 51:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  People will pick none, because there's just too many. When there's only three, people buy more.

• 51:47Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Very simple.

• 51:48Steven Bartlett?

  And this is going on in dating at the moment. Do you know what it was? A friend of mine, we were having a debate actually in the room over there a couple of days ago, and they were saying to me, I just need to meet more guys. And I'm sat there thinking, your actual job is networking. Like, you get paid to meet people. You know more people than anyone I know.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:06Steven Bartlett?

  I could say, right now, I could say to this person, I need a chiropractor in Las Vegas, and this person would, should go, I know the guy.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 52:16Steven Bartlett?

  So I was saying, like, the issue might be that, you know, you have too many options.

• 52:20Speaker 00

  Too much jam.

• 52:21Steven Bartlett?

  Too much jam.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  Okay, so too many choices is one, but I also think, like, we are so, accidentally, we become so obsessed with our morning routine, our evening routine, our rituals, our self-care. Self-care wasn't even a thing that we talked about when I was on social media 10 years ago. So what happens is I see rigidity. There's a new rigidity happening for both men and women, but a lot of women too, where, oh, I can't go on that date because I have to do my morning routine. I can't do that thing because I have to get my workout in. And I think that we are putting our connections in the last place, when actually, if we want to know what's really good for our health and our longevity, it's our relationships. We get the most of the good chemicals, of the good, happy laughs and the endorphins with other people, and we keep putting it last.

• 53:08Steven Bartlett?

  You must meet people, though, that they've been on like 100 dates, and they, they tell you that they just can't find the person. And you go, 100 dates, like, 100 years ago, you wouldn't even know 100 people.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:18Steven Bartlett?

  And you'd be happily married.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  Yes. Yes, I also think our checklists are getting in the way.

• 53:22Steven Bartlett?

  Checklist.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  So many single people I know, they'll tell me they have a list. They have a list of things that they really want. I, when I met my husband, I did not have a list, but there was just a connection there. And even though we were very different on paper, it just worked. And so I think that when people have a checklist, it actually blinds them to seeing a connection right in front of their face.

• 53:46Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  And she said to me, I don't know if this is on camera or not, so hopefully it's okay if I share it. But she's like, you know, I just, I don't know if he's as career oriented as I was like. That's really important to me. And I knew that was on her list. On her list, on her internal list, career is right up top. Now, they didn't even talk about career. So I said, well, do you, did you even know what he does? Well, no.

• 54:06Steven Bartlett?

  So she was judging him based on his personality?

• 54:08Speaker 00

  That's it. And it didn't check the list. And so what can happen on these dates is they become very conversationally transactional. What do you do? Check. Where are you from? Mm, don't know, check.

• 54:19Steven Bartlett?

  So you're trying to get through a list?

• 54:20Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. So this, these checklists, I think, are creating a lot of rigidity. And then you add in the busyness, the busyness trap, which is, I'm so successful, I'm so busy. Busy is not a mark of success.

• 54:33Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think there's also an element that we've got more and more ambivalent with? If we, the more and more we date, the more it becomes transactional, the more we show up without passion or interest or curiosity?

• 54:45Speaker 00

  I don't know if that's ambivalence. I think that is numbness. Like, people have gotten really attractive. I don't know if you've noticed this.

• 54:56Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, they have.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  My goodness, people are so pretty. Like, I'm on Instagram and I'm like, how does everyone look so good? Like, I, I didn't really know anyone with an eight pack when I went to school. Like, did you? Like, no, no. Because that wasn't really a thing. I'm like, old, right? Like, I, no, no one had that. There was no social media. So like, people have like, you know, normal looks. Now people are extremely attractive. And so I think that the bar has gone up so that we're all like numb to how beautiful people are, how funny people are, how kind people are, because we've been on a thousand dates. Or the funniest, best thing they ever did is on their Instagram and we saw it. So anything else is like, eh. Seen it.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  Like, nothing is impressive anymore.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  Like, I, there's two challenges I recommend for people who are in like, kind of a funk. Like, if you're in like, a, you're burnt out, or you're feeling lonely, or you're like, things are not working, there's two challenges you could consider. The first one is really hard, and it's the no mirror challenge. It's you go thirty days without looking in a mirror.

• 56:02Speaker 00

  Something really crazy happens when you cannot see yourself and see how good you look and see what you look like, and it's especially powerful for women. I did it for thirty days. Um, and I went, you have to do all your normal things. You have to go to meetings, you have to go out, but without looking in a mirror, which means usually you don't wear makeup, you know, you don't do your hair, you kind of just go out as you are. First, you realize that people still like you, even if you don't look perfect. So, no mirror challenge can give you a lot of confidence and also can show you where your true relationships, your true friends are. The second challenge is a social media or an online blackout challenge, which is if you don't have any dopamine from your phone, you have to go get dopamine and oxytocin from in-person relationships.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  So if you have a blackout where you cannot go on any social media or have any kind of interactions on your phone, and you have to go out in person, you actually do. Like, I remember when I used to travel for work, and I'd get to a city, and there was nothing to do. Like, there was no phone in my hotel. I did not have an iPad. You could read a book, or you could try to go out. And that's what I would do. I would like, get to a city, and I'd be like, well, I have nothing to do in the hotel room. There's literally nothing to do. I had my book, or I could go to the hotel bar, or I could go walk around the city, and I met more people in that time of my life than I do now, even though I'm connected to more people than ever.

• 57:20Steven Bartlett?

  I was just thinking then about something someone said to me a couple of days ago, which links to what you're saying. Someone said to me that... Much of the cause of the incel culture is these young men spend lots of time playing video games and the video games gives them the sense of accomplishment, the sense of building. It also gives them the like dopamine hit when you like win a sword or some coins or something. And so I was just also thinking about that in the context of being like a workaholic. Like if I'm working all day, every day on a screen and I'm constant, which is what I do. When it comes to like going out and meeting people and networking, for me, it's like hell. And I'm wondering if there's a link there. I'm like, maybe if I wasn't on the screen for like 12 hours a day, I'd have more dopamine left over to go speak to somebody.

• 58:04Speaker 00

  Dopamine and also the energy flip wouldn't be so massive. The energy that you're using on your computer is very much output, right? Like you're, you're putting your energy into your machine to create content of some kind. When you go out, it's a feedback. It's back and forth.

• 58:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  Go, having your brain switch from one to the next is very jarring. And if you already get dopamine from your screen, what, what's the motivation for going out in person? There's only downside.

• 58:30Steven Bartlett?

  My computer has never energized me, but these conversations always do.

• 58:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Why would you go out? You're already having the best conversations you can do and you're in control. And look, I don't know, just saying, I think you like control.

• 58:42Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think I like control? In what context? What do you think I like controlling?

• 58:46Speaker 00

  The reason I, I bring up the control thing is if you are on social media, you are in complete control. You decide how often you scroll. You decide where you click. You decide when you're done with something, you just exit their video. Well, you know, in conversation, if I don't like your answer, I can't go off. I can't turn your volume down. I can't double click on your like. I actually have to sit and listen to you. And I think that, you know, if you're in control of your conversations and even like at this table, you are in control. Like I'm talking a lot, but like you could interrupt me anytime you want and I will answer whatever question you ask me. And so I wonder, don't be mad at me, if in like real conversation, like I could ask you anything that I want. Like right now, I have a thousand questions for you, but I'm trying to not ask them.

• 59:31Steven Bartlett?

  Ask me the questions.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Well, I asked you the one about control. If you didn't really answer, you had to back to me.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  You don't think you're a control freak?

• 59:42Steven Bartlett?

  Probably.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  Okay, thank you.

• 59:43Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, probably. It's all context dependent because when you said control freak, I was like, well, I don't have any control in that part of my life. That's like a democracy. But typically in business, I think that I'm a control freak.

• 59:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:54Steven Bartlett?

  I think if you ask my team, they'd say, yeah, he's a control freak.

• 59:56Speaker 00

  So I would argue.

• 59:57Steven Bartlett?

  Am I a control freak?

• 59:58Speaker 00

  Am I?

• 59:58Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. He's laughing.

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  He wasn't really laughing, but. Answer the question. Yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  Thank you, Jack.

• 1:00:06Steven Bartlett?

  You're welcome.

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  So I.

• 1:00:07Steven Bartlett?

  Am I a control freak? This is not a good thing. No, I am.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think, look, I don't know, but my guess would be why you don't want to go, you know, out with people is because you have to give up control and you have to be in a conversation where you might be asked something that might be boring or you don't like it and like, why, why?

• 1:00:24Steven Bartlett?

  I do struggle, I really struggle with like going to networking events and stuff. I really struggle with that stuff.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  I don't love a networking event, but I've found that if I have a very specific goal.

• 1:00:37Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Speaker 00

  It's better. So like, for example, if I, like, I'm researching my next book. I'm looking for conversational case studies. So if I am going to the event and I'm like, okay, tonight I'm going to try a new question and see how it goes. You know, I'm then, I'm like, okay, I have a purpose. Or if I'm like, I'm going to practice some new jokes. Or if I'm like, I'm looking for a new, you know, business inspiration, like that helps me. So I think no one really likes networking events, but if you have a goal, it makes it a little bit better.

• 1:01:05Steven Bartlett?

  Just for a second, I want to talk about a company I've invested in and who sponsored this podcast called Zoe. Like me, many of you are big on tracking your fitness and your sleep, but how many of you understand how your body handles food? Metabolic fitness is all about understanding your metabolism's response to food and we all react differently. So Zoe created a test to help you understand how your body responds. And it starts with their famous test cookies, which are identical test meals with the same sugar, fat and calorie content of the average meal and therefore acts as a metabolic challenge. You also wear a continuous glucose monitor that tests your blood sugar levels. I've done this test and it left me wondering how my metabolic fitness compared to others like me and my results revealed everything. So if you'd like to learn about your body's response to food,

• 1:01:50Steven Bartlett?

  head over to Zoe.com to order your test kit now. And if you want a discount, use code STEVEN10 at checkout for 10% off your membership. As a Zoe member, you'll get an at-home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your health. That's Zoe.com with code STEVEN10. We're talking about business there. If I want to communicate more effectively as a leader in business, are there any ways that I can become a little bit more? I guess there's different types of leaders that struggle with different things, but how do great leaders communicate? What do they do well?

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  Oh, this is my favorite topic. As a leader, especially if you're trying to get, meet people and new people especially, your, what do you do needs to be I am a who helps. A lot of leaders struggle with building the right connections. And so they'll be very either like intellectual with their answer. So like, or very vague. So like I've heard business leaders say, oh, you know, I run a tech company. That is a dream killer for a conversation. People don't know what to do with that. So what you're better off saying is I have a tech company and we help aspiring cooks.

• 1:03:00Steven Bartlett?

  So this kind of actually pulls us to another conversation you had in our fake date scenario. If you click on the first link there with the gentleman whose name is?

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Tim.

• 1:03:13Steven Bartlett?

  Tim.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, Tim.

• 1:03:14Steven Bartlett?

  I found it really fascinating watching you help Tim introduce his profession.

• 1:03:18Speaker 00

  I love Tim. So Tim is my person, okay? Tim is my person, like he, he, let me tell you about Tim. So Tim is a code monkey slash software engineer, which we'll watch that video in a second. He is highly technical. He's very kind. He loves what he does. And on the date, he was actually the only person of the four speed daters who showed warmth the entire time. And I didn't know, I even said to Jack, I was like, I think he's into her. And I asked him afterwards, I said, are you into her? And he said, no. And I was very impressed with him because he still showed warmth, congeniality, and kindness, even though he wasn't physically into her. And I was like, this is magic.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  I also think that Tim came across as a little bit nervous and a little bit awkward. And I was like, ooh, Tim, if we could just dial up your confidence and add that to your warmth, you are gonna find your person. And so I loved him. We can watch his interaction.

• 1:04:14Steven Bartlett?

  The first clip of Tim there, I thought was fascinating. Yeah, that one there.

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  Okay, you're gonna have a great date. First, can I help you out with some advice?

• 1:04:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  Okay, so ignore the cameras completely.

• 1:04:25Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:04:26Speaker 00

  You're making great eye contact, which I love. She's probably gonna ask you, what do you do?

• 1:04:31Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  What is your answer to that question?

• 1:04:33Speaker 04

  I am a code monkey, or a software engineer.

• 1:04:37Speaker 00

  Okay, cool. So anytime I meet a software engineer, it's a good answer, but it's a conversational dead end.

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  Because unless I'm a software engineer, I don't know what to say. So I'm like, so what I want you to do is actually create a hook. So you're gonna say, so what kind of coding do you do?

• 1:04:52Speaker 04

  I do a lot of backend stuff. That's probably too much.

• 1:04:57Speaker 00

  Nope, don't even know what that is. You have to think of a hook to give me, so that you don't have this. What do you do, software engineer? What do you do, teacher? Because we have to have a, we can't, you can't say, I'm a software engineer. Do you like art?

• 1:05:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

  We can't do that, right? How long have you been doing it? How about that?

• 1:05:12Speaker 04

  I've been doing it for five to six years and been loving my team so far, so.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  Ah, do you lead a team?

• 1:05:18Speaker 04

  Uh, I hope to, one day, but not right now.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  But you love your team. Okay, so I think that that could be your hook. So I think you could say like, I'm a code monkey, AKA software engineer. The best part of my job is playing with code all day, but also like hanging out with my team.

• 1:05:30Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  Then you're giving me a lot of hooks that I can then say next. Any body language questions for me? Your body language looks great. You're making eye contact. I love your visible hands. You already watched my Steven interview.

• 1:05:40Speaker 04

  Oh, sometimes.

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  Okay, perfect. So I think it's great. Mutual laughing is really good, too. It's like, that's great. If you're ever nervous, just laugh.

• 1:05:47Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  It's gonna go really well. Okay, you got this. Okay, so this is exactly what happens with highly competent folks is they have an answer to the question that's just the answer. That's not how good conversation works. Master communicators make it very easy for people to ask a follow-up question or to get hooked in. So whatever your answer is as a leader, you want to give people enough hook to be able to be like, "Oh, I want to know more about that." Software engineer didn't do that for Tim. Now, her response to this question is terrible. Terrible. Did you see what happened in the date?

• 1:06:20Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:06:21Speaker 04

  So, what do you do?

• 1:06:23Speaker 07

  Cheers.

• 1:06:24Speaker 04

  Cheers to you, Asa.

• 1:06:27Speaker 07

  I am an AI consultant and I make tech content.

• 1:06:31Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 1:06:33Speaker 07

  Yes, in the tech space.

• 1:06:35Speaker 04

  In the tech space?

• 1:06:36Speaker 07

  Yes. What about you?

• 1:06:37Speaker 04

  I am a code monkey.

• 1:06:40Speaker 07

  Code monkey?

• 1:06:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:41Speaker 07

  Oh, no.

• 1:06:42Speaker 04

  No, software engineer. No, I love my job.

• 1:06:44Speaker 07

  Tell him something good. Okay.

• 1:06:49Speaker 07

  Yeah, we love code monkeys.

• 1:06:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, no.

• 1:06:53Speaker 07

  I used to be a code monkey.

• 1:06:54Speaker 04

  No way.

• 1:06:55Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:06:55Speaker 04

  You used to?

• 1:06:56Speaker 07

  For like six years, seven, maybe, yeah.

• 1:07:00Speaker 04

  Did you like it?

• 1:07:02Speaker 07

  I did, but I, okay, I thought I liked it and then I realized I didn't.

• 1:07:07Speaker 04

  No way.

• 1:07:08Speaker 07

  Yeah. It was like one of those things where after it's over, you're like, "Wait a second, I wasn't that happy."

• 1:07:13Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know, I have to say, I don't think he should call himself a code monkey.

• 1:07:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a bit, it's...

• 1:07:17Steven Bartlett?

  demeaning.

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, and also people, people don't know what it is really. Like, I didn't even really know what it was. I was like, "What?"

• 1:07:22Steven Bartlett?

  But it sounds kind of, her reaction was telling, she went, "Oh, no."

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  I know, "Oh, no." And so, so, so she says, "Oh, no." So first of all, I said to her afterwards, "Why did you do that? If you disagree with someone, you can disagree with them, but then give them something else." So she was basically like, "Oh, no." And then he's like, "Yeah, I love what I do."

• 1:07:41Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, but I think he has responsibility there because he shouldn't describe himself as a code monkey anything.

• 1:07:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Steven Bartlett?

  You sound like you are a, like a...

• 1:07:53Steven Bartlett?

  Involuntary, like slave to something against your will.

• 1:07:56Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:07:56Steven Bartlett?

  If I said I was a podcast monkey, you wouldn't think, you wouldn't think, oh, amazing. I'm so happy for you, would you?

• 1:08:02Speaker 00

  No, I'd be like weird.

• 1:08:04Steven Bartlett?

  Exactly. It's the word monkey that they're adding makes it seem painful.

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  I, I think you're right. He, he came up with a better answer. And this is like, this is the takeaway for leaders is what question are you asked all the time? I know people in business are asked the same questions all the time, either networking or in their business pitches. I always think this when I watch Dragon's Den or Shark Tank is like, you were, you knew this question was coming. You want to have a really, really good answer. And so making sure that you're ready for the answer and the more stories you can use, the better, right? Like, that's why I'm like, I want you to start that note in your phone of all the stories of all the different topics that come up. Is it so important to have good answers with those questions that you know are coming your way?

• 1:08:40Steven Bartlett?

  What's a great answer then? Give me an example of a great answer. So if I'm the CEO of a media company, what's a great answer? If someone says, what do you do?

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. I'm a CEO of a media company, so you want to start with clarity. So what is it exactly you do? I, I don't like people who have like these crazy weird metaphors for like, right, right. So tell them what you do. I'm a CEO of a media company and, uh, you know, we work with amazing clients like. So tell me who's the best client you worked for, the most interesting client you worked for, what's the most interesting project you worked for? Like, tell me that story or tell me how you moonlight. So if your job is boring, be like, oh, you know, I'm a CEO of a media company, but, um, I garden on my free time. Like, like, give me the, the side hustle so I can say, oh, what kind of media? Or tell me about the gardening. So give an interesting story about who it is you work for, or give me a side hustle that's really interesting or passion.

• 1:09:31Steven Bartlett?

  And I heard you say that using the word because as a leader is important to get people to come with you.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  Humans need reasons. When there is a reason, even if it's a silly reason, it helps us feel more motivated. So it was a very, very silly study that was done that looked at this where they had people go up to a copy machine in a library. And ask, can I make copies? Now, everyone who's in the line for the copy machine has to make copies. They found that people who went up to the line to cut the line and said, um, excuse me, can I make some copies? They got rejected. They were like, no, dude, get in the back of the line. We're all making copies. But if someone said, excuse me, can I make copies? I really have to copy this. Like with a reason, people were more likely to let them cut, even though it was exactly the same thing as the first thing. The point of the study was to show that if you have a because,

• 1:10:19Speaker 00

  even if it's a silly because, people are more likely to do things for you. Now, I don't love this idea, but I think the important point for us is you want to know your why. That's why I said, tell people who you help. So if you're a CEO of a media company, who you help is your most interesting client. Or if you're a life coach, don't just say, I'm a life coach, or I'm a consultant. I'm a life coach. I help women who really want to get their nutrition under control. Then I know who you work for. That's your why, and that gives someone a reason. Or, you know, I really love to work with you. I think that I could really, really change your nutritional outlook and put you in more control of your nutrition. That because, even though it's implied, even though I already heard it,

• 1:11:02Speaker 00

  it hooks someone in to go, ah, if they have a why, I can buy into that why. And I don't think he did a very good job on that. However, he was very warm with her, even though he wasn't into it. And that was very respectful.

• 1:11:12Steven Bartlett?

  How are either of them supposed to know if the other person is attracted to them?

• 1:11:15Speaker 00

  Exactly. This is why I'm doing what I'm doing. The number one thing that is causing loneliness is we are withholding our liking, both with friends and in romance. With all of these daters, none of them, 0%, showed any kind of obvious liking. How are we gonna have babies? How are we gonna have marriages if we're withholding our liking? How are we gonna have friends if we don't know if someone likes us? I think we should be going around showing, amplifying our likes to people that we're with.

• 1:11:45Steven Bartlett?

  So how do I signal that I like someone? And how do I know if they like me?

• 1:11:50Speaker 00

  Okay, so verbally, I think it's very easy, right? You can be very direct and be like, oh, my gosh, this is so much fun. So like my magic phrases, right? If someone is interesting, funny, likable, fun, say in that moment, ah, this is so fun. This is so interesting. Being with you is always so interesting. So that's one way you can do it is affirming the adjective that you're already feeling and saying it out loud. Right? Like, I think that Kendrick was very funny. And I actually said to him in our, like, pre-interview, I was like, oh, you're really funny. That must be a double-edged sword.

• 1:12:23Steven Bartlett?

  He was the first guy.

• 1:12:24Speaker 00

  The first guy, yeah. I said, you're really funny, and that made him feel really good. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I am. And I was like, I think that's good, but also probably it's harder to get depth. He's like, yes, that's true. So if someone is funny, interesting, delightful, a good conversationalist, tell them. That's the first thing is like, don't withhold that.

• 1:12:39Steven Bartlett?

  We don't tell people, do we?

• 1:12:40Speaker 00

  Never.

• 1:12:41Steven Bartlett?

  We don't tell people. Just thinking about a meeting I had last week and I was thinking, God, if I'd started that meeting just by telling the person what I thought of them, really positive thing, it would have completely, probably made them feel good.

• 1:12:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:12:53Steven Bartlett?

  Because back to your point about giving them serotonin or...

• 1:12:55Speaker 00

  And it makes you more likable. Like, we like people who like us. So the more obvious you are with your liking actually just makes you more likable. So affirming them, making sure that they know that you were thinking of them. So like, I was just thinking of you. I was so looking forward to this. I've been looking forward to this all day. And then nonverbal liking. So for men, vocalizations, hmm, ah, oh, hmm. We love those. We love a triple nod. We love a head tilt. We love a lean. All of those, yeah, see?

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  Oh, you know what? There was something funny that I read recently, which is

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  women list humor as a number one trait they want in a man. Men don't care as much about humor in a woman. They want a woman who laughs at their jokes.

• 1:13:40Steven Bartlett?

  Of course.

• 1:13:40Speaker 00

  Which I thought this was so good and so helpful that, that for a man, yes, it's good if you can work on being funny because women do like it. But if you're a woman, you actually don't have to be that funny. You just have to be willing to laugh. And that brings me back to liking. Being an easy laugher, like being ready to laugh, is one of the most likable complimentary things you can do for someone else.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  That was good. Thank you.

• 1:14:09Speaker 00

  Is this real or not real? We like it. I like it.

• 1:14:15Speaker 00

  That's a very believable laugh. It's good. There's sometimes people will withhold their laughing or like, they'll be like, oh, that's funny. Right? So being an easy laugher is also like the fastest way to tell someone, I like you. When we laugh, we are absolutely showing we like someone. So nonverbal and verbal liking is like very good.

• 1:14:30Steven Bartlett?

  What if you're not funny? Because a lot of people, we've sort of categorized ourselves as being a funny person or a not funny person. So is there a way, if you're not funny, to be funny?

• 1:14:40Speaker 00

  Yes, and it's being the best passenger ever. If you're not a joke teller, the joke teller is the driver, right? In a conversation, they're telling funny stories, they're telling funny anecdotes, they're very funny. They're driving. Well, drivers need passengers to laugh at their jokes. So you are going to be the best passenger ever. You're gonna laugh at the joke, you're gonna bang on the table. I love table bangers. You know, I have people in my life who are not very funny, but they love to bang on the table when I tell a funny joke and that makes me feel so good. They don't need to be funny. I'm happy to try, right? So if you're not funny, just be very good at hyping up other funny people. You also could be a curator of funny. You find the best funny gifs, you find the best funny clips, you share the best funny posts.

• 1:15:23Speaker 00

  Like, you don't have to be funny to be a curator of funny. Like, I have a friend who's not that funny, but he has the best clips and memes that he sends me. And so I think of him as funny, even though he's never told a joke.

• 1:15:34Steven Bartlett?

  He's just passing one of the people's funny.

• 1:15:35Speaker 00

  Totally, but it's associated with him.

• 1:15:38Steven Bartlett?

  But that does make him funny because he knows how to select funny. Because I've got a friend who sends like the worst gifs.

• 1:15:44Speaker 00

  But isn't that funny?

• 1:15:45Steven Bartlett?

  They're never funny ones.

• 1:15:46Speaker 00

  But doesn't it make you laugh?

• 1:15:50Steven Bartlett?

  What do you mean? The gifs are so strange.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  Oh my god, what a sad soul.

• 1:15:53Steven Bartlett?

  I've got one friend, my friend Ash, she sends five gifs, but I've got this other friend who I shan't name.

• 1:15:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, please don't name him.

• 1:15:58Steven Bartlett?

  No, just in case everyone's listening.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  He literally sends not funny gifs.

• 1:16:00Steven Bartlett?

  We've all got a friend that sends like the bad meme and you, they drop it in the chat and everyone's like.

• 1:16:06Speaker 00

  Thumbs up.

• 1:16:06Steven Bartlett?

  You know?

• 1:16:07Speaker 00

  But like, doesn't it make you kind of laugh? Don't you love them for it?

• 1:16:10Steven Bartlett?

  I love them, but I think, could they improve their meme game? Yeah, like I wouldn't take the risk. I haven't hit any fire emojis in a long time. I wouldn't be, my conviction.

• 1:16:22Speaker 00

  Okay, if that was them, if that was me, if I'm like, I'm not that funny, I can learn to be funny.

• 1:16:27Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think you can learn to be funny?

• 1:16:28Speaker 00

  I think I have. Like, I think I've learned to be a little bit funny with like my sense of humor. I think I'm taking improv class, like really, really taking improv class. A lot of humor is just trying things and seeing if they land. So if you're not funny and you want to be and like something to go to work on, take an improv class and work on being funny on stage. I also think you can study funny people and see how they make their jokes. Like, and you could have the same jokes. For example, I have a friend who, whenever he's over at our house, and I say babe to my husband, he goes, yes. And it's always funny. It's always funny. It's the only joke he really makes, but I love it. And so I think that you can also have like sort of jokes that you've figured out that you just use over and over again.

• 1:17:07Steven Bartlett?

  And touch, is that a cue of interest?

• 1:17:10Speaker 00

  Yes, I love touch, but you have to be a little bit careful with it because if you do it inauthentically or awkwardly, it's like a total fail and looks terribly horribly wrong. I love a high five. Like, I love like, oh my gosh, that was great. Yes. Oh my gosh, we're both into that. Like, I love like, you're making a funny face.

• 1:17:28Steven Bartlett?

  Only you can pull off high fives.

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:17:30Steven Bartlett?

  Like, I don't know whether this is a British thing or not, but if I started high fiving people in meetings, people would think I was very strange.

• 1:17:39Speaker 00

  No, I think people would like it.

• 1:17:41Steven Bartlett?

  No, I think, I think it's, I think people have like a model of you.

• 1:17:44Speaker 00

  Okay, okay.

• 1:17:45Steven Bartlett?

  And I think they understand like the upper limits of your enthusiasm when you're excited, who you, you know, your playfulness. I think high fiving.

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  It's outside your bubble.

• 1:17:53Steven Bartlett?

  Jemima, do you know Jemima out there?

• 1:17:54Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 1:17:55Steven Bartlett?

  She could high five. She'd get away with it.

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 1:17:56Steven Bartlett?

  Because that's like.

• 1:17:57Speaker 00

  I think I have high fived Jemima.

• 1:17:58Steven Bartlett?

  There you go.

• 1:17:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay, so, all right.

• 1:18:00Steven Bartlett?

  Find your thing.

• 1:18:01Speaker 00

  You have a flavor.

• 1:18:02Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:02Speaker 00

  Right? Everyone has a flavor. Your flavor is not high fiving, but it's probably something else, like a dry sense of humor. In fact, they, they did a study where they looked at warriors and not warriors, like neurotics and not neurotics. Neurotics are known for making self-deprecating jokes and we like it about them. Like, they're constantly making fun of themselves and we like it. Whereas low neurotics, people who are not warriors, who are like really confident, they love to make jokes about other things, but never about themselves. So like, everyone has like their flavor and that's good. You gotta find it. And you should study people who are like you, right? Like, there has to be, like, I love to watch, um, like, uh, those talk shows, like, you know, Jimmy Kimmel or whatever, and I pay attention to the interviews that have more than one laugh every 30 seconds. So my goal in a keynote, like I give a lot of keynotes for organizations,

• 1:18:45Speaker 00

  I try to have a laugh every minute if I can. I think that if you have a laugh every minute, you're considered funny and that actually opens up the brain to more learning. So on interviews, I pay attention to who are the interviews? What are the interviews where they're getting a laugh every 30 seconds, 30 to 60 seconds? And I pay attention to how are they doing it? And that is how I've learned to be funny. Like, for example, like a really easy one for humor I've learned is like, if you have like one, two, three things and the third thing is weird, people almost always laugh. So if you're like, oh, you know, Texas is great. It's the land of tacos, cowboy hats and hot girls. Like if you make the third thing a weird one, people kind of like, ha, like they think it's funny. And so like if you have, like you can begin to play with those things if you learn.

• 1:19:29Speaker 00

  But I've noticed that as a pattern, just like anecdotally by watching people. So I think that you could find someone who's like you. Like you should find a British smart guy. Who's a British smart guy who's funny?

• 1:19:41Steven Bartlett?

  Jack? Jack Smart.

• 1:19:42Speaker 00

  Jack. And just like, see what kind of jokes they're making. I bet you those jokes will work for you too.

• 1:19:47Steven Bartlett?

  They do, yeah, yeah. I still like steal jokes from British.

• 1:19:49Speaker 00

  For sure. It's like, I think that works. I also think there was a study that was done about like charisma. And we're talking about master communicators, especially leaders. I work with a lot of leaders. And what I tell them is you can actually channel your role model that will completely change your body language. They asked presenters to present on stage, a little one minute presentation, which by the way, very hard to do if you're not a presenter. So they had them give a little presentation on stage. And they took them off and they said, okay, now we want you to channel Steve Jobs and give another presentation. And don't tell anyone what you're doing, but just in your mind, just, just channel him. When they got on stage, they were more charismatic. They used more vocal variety. They used more hand gestures. They were more confident. They spent almost double the amount of time on stage and they liked it more. Simply by channeling Steve Jobs.

• 1:20:33Speaker 00

  So I share this because I think you don't necessarily have to be funny or charismatic on your own. But if you're channeling the most funny person you know, or the most charismatic person you know, it can transform your vocal and nonverbal cues to be more like that person.

• 1:20:46Steven Bartlett?

  And micro expressions.

• 1:20:47Speaker 00

  Yes, okay.

• 1:20:49Steven Bartlett?

  I feel like when I ask you a question, every question is your favorite question.

• 1:20:52Speaker 00

  I have some that are not my favorites, but you haven't asked them yet.

• 1:20:54Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, good.

• 1:20:55Speaker 00

  Okay, good. This is what got me into, into this work. It was actually micro expressions. So there are many people, especially if you have narcissists in your life, who misinterpret neutral expressions as negative.

• 1:21:10Speaker 00

  So one of the problems I had early on that caused me to be awkward is I thought everyone hated me. I thought everyone was angry at me. So I'd misinterpret the expression. I would think they hate me, which made me even more awkward. It was a very bad cycle. So one of the first things I discovered with this work, where I was like, why doesn't everyone know this? I was 20 years old. And I stumbled upon this idea that some of our expressions are universal, that across cultures and genders and races, we make the same facial expressions for the same emotions. Now, there's some controversy about my character expressions and how universal they are. But there are seven that we've found have a lot of universal applications. And I would love to teach you those seven.

• 1:21:48Steven Bartlett?

  Please.

• 1:21:48Speaker 00

  Okay. Let's actually start with fear. So fear is a universal response. And when we make this face, it helps keep us safe. It's when we widen our eyes, so our eyelids, our upper whites show. We raise our eyebrows up and we usually open our mouth, like that. The reason why we make this face innately is because if we see a tiger, like back from caveman days, our mouth opens, takes in oxygen, and opens in case we have to yell for help or run for our lives. Our eyebrows and our eyelids lift up so we can take up and as take in as much of the space as possible. The safest face I can make as a human is this one. Right? I can say anything. I can take in oxygen. I can see as much as possible.

• 1:22:30Speaker 00

  That is why we make that expression, expression when we feel fear. When we see it, and you see it a lot in business environments, you are spotting, oh, I just tapped into a little bit of nervousness. And it typically happens around confusion. So I will sometimes be giving a presentation, and I'll notice someone will go, and I know I just said something that they didn't like, or they made them nervous, or that makes them feel a little bit afraid. And I can say, this makes sense. Are we all good? Let me rewind and re-explain that again. So I spot the fear and I immediately address it. So what you want to look for is those upper whites of someone's eyes. That's how you know that someone just triggered, you triggered a little bit of nervousness in them.

• 1:23:07Steven Bartlett?

  When you say upper whites of someone's eyes, what you, what you mean?

• 1:23:10Speaker 00

  I literally mean the upper whites up here. So not lower. Like when I'm afraid, my eyes peel up so you can see the upper whites of my eyes. It's very unnatural to do that, right? Like you would never do that normally. We do that when we're actually feeling afraid. Now, I, I tend to raise my eyebrows up to show like a punctuation. But this is like, It's a much bigger expression. Yeah, so when you see it, make sure that you immediately address it. So you calm that fear. Okay, so fear is the first one. The second one that I want to talk about is disgust. So disgust is a very negative emotion. We make it when we don't like something. So it's when we crinkle our nose up and flash the epiphanies of our teeth. Yeah, it's a space. We do it to inhibit our nasal passages, like when we smell something bad or taste something bad.

• 1:23:55Speaker 00

  But interestingly, we also do this when we don't like something we hear or see. I see this a lot with lie detection. So we do a lot of lie detection research. And I've noticed lying makes people feel dirty. We do not like to lie. And so people will often lie as they'll make the disgust expression as they're lying. So I'll say, you know, so what do you think of the new guy? Oh, yeah, yeah, you know, he's pretty good. And they hold this expression up. Look for secret disgust if you ask someone a preference based question. If they are lying, they will often show disgust because they're literally disgusted with themselves for having to make that distinction. So it's an inhibitor and you always want to look up here. We don't do that naturally, right? We don't do that naturally at all.

• 1:24:40Speaker 00

  So that's a really good one to look out for. Also, you can predict behavior better with disgust, right? So if you ask someone a question and they go, um, you know that they're not in a good headspace. That's when you immediately want to give permission. Hey, look, I'm on your side. I'd rather just know what you really think. I have prevented lies.

• 1:25:00Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:01Speaker 00

  By giving someone full permission to just tell me the truth.

• 1:25:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I think I pull that sometimes when I don't want to do something. So someone might say, do you want to go to this restaurant? I go.

• 1:25:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. And you don't even realize you're doing it because we make it accidentally.

• 1:25:14Steven Bartlett?

  It looks like a mulling, but actually I've given away that I actually don't want to go.

• 1:25:17Speaker 00

  And why not be in relationships where we can say, hey, look, we're good, we don't have to go to dinner.

• 1:25:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:22Speaker 00

  Or like, I'd much rather say that. Okay, that's disgust. Anger is a really interesting one. So anger, they did computer generated faces and they found that when you make the components of anger, it makes your face look stronger. People perceive you as stronger. So the reason we make this from an evolutionary perspective is because when we are angry, it makes us look physically strong, which makes sense before we get into a fight. So anger is when we usually tense our lids. We pinch our shoulders together and we harden our lips. And we often jut our jaw out. So jut your jaw. Like before a fight, people often will be like, what's up? What's up? They jaw out because it makes you look stronger. It's a way of like showing territorial gestures. And we also tense our lips and tense our eyes. This makes us see better. So right before a fight, no, you look confused.

• 1:26:07Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, I'm sorry.

• 1:26:10Speaker 00

  Okay, so, so harden your lips. Yep.

• 1:26:13Steven Bartlett?

  I thought I had it hard on my lips.

• 1:26:14Speaker 00

  Oh, you actually did it perfectly just a second ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you see those vertical lines appear and then chut your chin out at me. Yeah, that's like, what are you doing? I don't like this. And if you hold that expression, you'll begin to feel angry and defensive. Isn't that weird?

• 1:26:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:30Speaker 00

  So it makes you look strong. That's why we make that face. I always look out for in the business environment, you don't often see that full anger, right? But you will often see a chin jut. So if I'm like in a meeting or I'm at a team call and I'm looking and someone goes,

• 1:26:44Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:44Speaker 00

  I know that I've just made them a little bit angry. Typically in anger, people do two things. They go on the offensive or the defensive. I want to prevent either. So when someone's angry, they go, it's not my fault, it's your fault. Offensive. Or they go on the defensive, not my fault. I don't want that. Right? So they'll often attack or they get very defensive. I want to disengage that completely. So I'll say, hey, look, we are on the same page. If you see someone in anger, you want to immediately go into shared mutual understanding, mutual goals. Okay, so that's anger. And let's talk about a good one, which is happiness. So happiness, we've talked about before, which is the only true expression of happiness is when the happiness reaches all the way up into our upper cheek muscles, all the way up here.

• 1:27:26Steven Bartlett?

  I know, I've tried so hard with the smiling thing since we last met, but it's really not going well for me.

• 1:27:30Speaker 00

  I know. But when you are happy, like when you laughed earlier authentically, it does it automatically. It already does it. So it's this upper cheek muscles. When we reach those upper cheek muscles, don't fake smile. I'd rather you real smile. That looks good.

• 1:27:42Steven Bartlett?

  Does it actually?

• 1:27:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it was good. Oh, yes, I like it. I'm always on the lookout for fake smiles, right? Like especially in the work setting is if someone, especially in sales, I do a lot of sales trainings, if someone's like, oh, yeah, I love this, but they don't love it. You're not done selling, like keep building rapport. So you're looking for the absence of real happiness. That's what you really want to look for.

• 1:28:01Steven Bartlett?

  And that's really, you said it's about this section?

• 1:28:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, this section of your face.

• 1:28:05Steven Bartlett?

  So this should go up?

• 1:28:06Speaker 00

  All the way up, yes. And you, remember, anyone can fake smile. It's all in your upper cheek muscles.

• 1:28:12Steven Bartlett?

  All in your upper cheek muscles, okay.

• 1:28:14Speaker 00

  Here. Yeah, like that.

• 1:28:18Speaker 00

  That's it. That's why you have to be careful with botox. Because there's a lot of, I could talk a lot about botox if you want to. But when people botox their smile wrinkles, they actually feel less happy. So there's a feedback hypothesis of when you show an emotion, you actually begin to feel the emotion. So people who have botoxed their smile wrinkles can't make a true happy face and actually feel less happy. It's also the same with negative emotions. So if you botox your anger, you'll actually feel less angry. They've started to use it for anger management. As if you botox your anger muscles, you actually are less volatile. So there's all kinds of things that happen with our face when we begin to change it.

• 1:28:57Steven Bartlett?

  Damn.

• 1:28:58Speaker 00

  Okay, so that's anger. Sadness.

• 1:29:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:02Speaker 00

  Sadness is the most contagious of all the expressions. So sadness is the hardest one to fake. It's really hard to do. So the first thing is you pull your mouth down into a frown. And then you puff out your lower lip. And then you pinch your eyes together and kind of droop your lids. Uh oh, made you yawn. You know what's funny? Is if you make a sadness expression, it'll either make you yawn or cry. Oh, your eyes watering? It worked!

• 1:29:26Steven Bartlett?

  I think the yawn made the eyes water.

• 1:29:27Speaker 00

  But it's all part of the same system.

• 1:29:29Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, right.

• 1:29:30Speaker 00

  Isn't that crazy? Isn't that weird how that happens? So you know you've made a good facial expression or a good sadness expression when you actually begin to tear up. They found that when babies want attention, they pout out their lower lip. Because we find it quite cute, right? Like when babies do that, we're like, oh, we need to help you. So it's actually evolutionary that when we do that, it actually is a way that we get help. So when I see that downward frown, you'll pull their mouth into a downward frown. I know that something is going on for them. And I'm careful with this at work especially. It's empathy, compassion, or space. Like if someone's going through something at work, you don't always want to be like, well, tell me about your divorce. Go ahead and tell me about that. No, you might want to be like, look, if this is not a good time for a meeting, we can reschedule.

• 1:30:15Speaker 00

  We don't have to do this right now. So I think that space is sometimes the best thing. Or can I help?

• 1:30:20Steven Bartlett?

  But it's hard to tell the difference. It's hard to tell, so you've just got to ask.

• 1:30:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think like that's the mistake that people make when coding emotions is they think that they have to rely completely on their own reading. No, if you see an expression, you don't know what it means, be like, hey, all good? Are you good? Want to tell me anything? Like, asking for clarity, no matter what the emotion is, whether it's good or bad, is always good. A little trick I also use, if you want to calm someone down and you're not sure what's bothering them, name an emotion you think it is and have them correct you. So I will often use the word upset because people will almost always correct you. So I'll say, are you upset? No, I'm not upset, I'm angry. Oh, good, now we're at least on the same page, I know that you're angry.

• 1:31:03Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 1:31:03Speaker 00

  And that really works well.

• 1:31:05Steven Bartlett?

  Sometimes that winds people up a little bit.

• 1:31:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, but at least you hit the truth.

• 1:31:08Steven Bartlett?

  True, it does start the conversation.

• 1:31:09Speaker 00

  Yes, and it gets you the truth of like, what are they actually feeling? Okay, we did those ones.

• 1:31:13Steven Bartlett?

  Contempt?

• 1:31:14Speaker 00

  Contempt and surprise, I believe, are last. So we'll do contempt last. Surprise is a very easy one. It's actually the longest of the micro expressions because we want to see it from far away. So, right, we just like go as wide as possible. Surprise is not positive or negative. The most important thing about surprise is the difference between surprise and fear. Here's why. If I say to you, did you know about that email that was going to be sent out on Monday to the whole team?

• 1:31:39Speaker 00

  Surprise, I had no idea. Versus fear, I didn't know. So surprise versus fear is very important when you're trying to gauge, does someone know something or not know something? It works really well with kids and teenagers, too.

• 1:31:51Steven Bartlett?

  Because they're bad at hiding it.

• 1:31:52Speaker 00

  They're really bad at hiding it. So like, if you're like, did you, did you take my phone? Probably not, or probably did, right? Like, you know, and I think, did I tell you my favorite one with kids is also nodding? Nodding cues work really well with kids and partners, if you didn't hear it from me. Where if we, when we nod yes in this culture, it means yes. When you nod no, it means no horizontally. With a kid, you can often be like, do you want to go to the playground or do you want to stay here? Oftentimes, they will pick the one that you associated with positive cues because they are reading your cues to figure out what the better choice is. So oftentimes with my kids, I'll be like, Do you want to wear this shirt? Or do you want to wear that shirt? And I'll show disgust and they're like, well, this one, obviously.

• 1:32:37Speaker 00

  You can also associate cues if you want to encourage someone to make a choice. If you know that both choices are the same. Your kids, it works really well. Okay, the last one is contempt. Contempt is scorn, disdain, pessimism. It's a mark of superiority and that's why it's so dangerous. When someone feels contemptuous, they're often feeling better than you. Or they know better than you, or they think better than you. In marriages, it's particularly damaging. Dr. John Gottman found that when he observes silent videos of a couple, he can predict with 93.6% accuracy if that couple will get divorced within 30 years. If one member of the couple shows contempt towards the other.

• 1:33:22Speaker 00

  That basically, if you're in a relationship and someone is contemptuous of the other person. So they show a one-sided mouth raise, contempt is a one-sided mouth raise or a smirk. Yeah. If they show that, it means they feel better than that person. And if that is not addressed, it festers and it grows into disrespect and hatred. So Gottman looks for contempt because he knows if someone in the couple feels contemptuous of the other person, they feel better than that person. And that is not an equal marriage.

• 1:33:50Steven Bartlett?

  Is that the only way that it comes out?

• 1:33:53Speaker 00

  The smirk is the most reliable way that contempt can come out. Measurably, right?

• 1:33:57Steven Bartlett?

  What about the eye roll?

• 1:33:58Speaker 00

  You know, an eye roll can be sort of silly. But like, I could, like, contempt, no matter the context, is not good. Right? Like if someone is like, I don't think so. You know, they feel better than, that's never a good thing. An eye roll, you could be like, ugh, you're being so silly. Right? So like contempt is the one expression where, one, you don't want to accidentally show it in your profile picture. So never show an asymmetrical smile. And two, if someone is showing you contempt, you have some rapport building to work on. Now, you don't know what that contempt is. It could be about you, it could be about a relationship. It even could be about self-contempt, right? But you want to immediately be like, what is going on? What are you feeling? What's going through your mind? What questions do you have for me?

• 1:34:41Speaker 00

  To make sure you're addressing whatever the reason for that contempt is, so it doesn't fester.

• 1:34:45Steven Bartlett?

  It builds though, doesn't it, with relationships? Do you think there's any turning back? When you've, because people will think about the people they know in their lives and there'll be some relationships where they've kind of built up contempt over time. So the minute you see this person again, you're already kind of on edge. You're probably already smirking, eye rolling, whatever.

• 1:35:02Speaker 00

  The only way, the only way is shared experience. Talking more usually doesn't get it. Like you can talk more, but if you have shared experiences where you're building oxytocin or you're building adrenaline, you're doing something new together that scares you both a little bit, it creates all kinds of chemical connections and bonds. And that's why sometimes when people go on like a couples retreat or a big couples trip, it resets them. It really resets them chemically. If you are showing contempt, you might disrespect that person. You have to go into shared activities where you can build respect back.

• 1:35:35Steven Bartlett?

  Can we change? Can we? I guess this is a question that a lot of people, well, it's quite foundational to learning from you and listening to you is this like deep belief that we can change who we are, because so many of us think that we're kind of stuck in our personalities. And that they are rigid and that they come from our trauma, our childhood, our genetics. But as it relates to like my personality, I guess, what is my, what is a personality? And can I change my personality? Should I change my personality?

• 1:36:05Speaker 00

  You can kind of change your personality. That's probably not the answer that you want, but they've actually researched this. And when you look at personality, it's composed of five main traits known as OCEAN. Openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Every person on the planet Earth has these five traits and they fall on a spectrum, high, medium, or low. These traits are somewhat heritable, somewhat genetic. So there is a portion of our genetics we cannot change. For example, personality traits are somewhere between 42 to 57% heritable, meaning some of it is just literally our genes expressing themselves. But that still gives us quite a bit of wiggle room. What I like to focus on is if you are low on the spectrum and let's say neuroticism,

• 1:36:50Speaker 00

  which is how you worry. You cannot become, low, you cannot become highly neurotic. It's too big of a, it's too big of a swing. But you could probably dial up to medium if you wanted to. Or if you were high, you could probably dial down to medium. So you have, let's say, thirty to forty percent potential for change. So if you want to change your mindset, your goals, your personality, you have about thirty to forty percent, I think, freedom to grow or change in a way that you want to, if you're purposeful.

• 1:37:17Steven Bartlett?

  Can you give me the definition of those five?

• 1:37:19Speaker 00

  Yes, okay, so openness. Openness is how curious you are, how open to new experiences you are, how creative you are. I think it's why you're willing to have new people in this setting, is you like having new questions. You're highly open people are extremely curious.

• 1:37:35Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:37:36Speaker 00

  The opposite is low open. Low open folks love habit, tradition, routine.

• 1:37:43Steven Bartlett?

  Jack just said I was a control freak, though.

• 1:37:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, control is not about openness.

• 1:37:47Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:37:48Speaker 00

  Right, like, you're willing to move around the world, you're willing to meet a lot of new people. Low open people want everything to be the same. They don't want to travel. They don't want to experience new things. And the reason for this is actually they found that highly open people have a certain form of gene called DRD4, which means that when they experience something new, they get an extra load of dopamine. That is why extremely high open people are adrenaline junkies. They seek really new experiences all the time because they want that dopamine hit. They actually get more dopamine when they try new things. Low open people have less dopamine for new experiences. So they're like, why would I go travel when I have my perfect setup right here? They are, I think what's really important about personality is there is no bad, there is no wrong.

• 1:38:33Speaker 00

  We want diversity of personality because our high opens, they explore. They're the ones trying all the new things. Our low opens honor our traditions and our rituals.

• 1:38:43Steven Bartlett?

  So in terms of finding a partner?

• 1:38:46Speaker 00

  Very important. If I were dating right now, I would probably make the dater take a personality test so we could see if we're matched. I would literally, I put up this test for free. So I have a personality test. It is up for free. I think every single person should take it. Know your own personality and also know your best friend's personality, your partner's personality.

• 1:39:07Steven Bartlett?

  What would you be looking for?

• 1:39:08Speaker 00

  Okay, so I know what matches really well together. A high open and a low open are gonna have trouble.

• 1:39:15Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so someone who is spontaneous, wants to try new things, new experiences versus someone who just wants to sit at home and do the same old things, go to the same restaurant?

• 1:39:23Speaker 00

  Yes, so let's talk about this very practically. I know very quickly. So yes, you can have, hopefully, have people take the test and then look at the results. Like you can actually screenshot it and look. If you're not sure, ask someone, what do you usually do for lunch? A high open will be like, oh, I love trying new places. The new thing, they always order the special, every time. A low open person wants to go to the same restaurant with the same waiter, order the same meal, and they would never try the special. Why risk it? Very different approach to the same thing. So in a relationship, every single meal, they're gonna have a problem. Like, it's really easy if you have the same level of approach to experiences. Entrepreneurs, as a leader, leaders, very good leaders, are typically higher in openness. So it tracks for you that you're high and open

• 1:40:08Speaker 00

  because you're willing to try new things. You're willing to risk it for the biscuit. You're willing to say, okay, I'm gonna risk this new idea to see if it's gonna work.

• 1:40:14Steven Bartlett?

  I love risking it for the biscuit.

• 1:40:15Speaker 00

  I know, and that's because you're driven towards more high dopamine. However, high open entrepreneurs have shiny object syndrome, where they are constantly chasing new ideas.

• 1:40:26Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 1:40:26Speaker 00

  And it doesn't always work.

• 1:40:27Steven Bartlett?

  No, not me.

• 1:40:29Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:40:30Steven Bartlett?

  I'm joking, of course.

• 1:40:31Speaker 00

  Because you do it, right? Yes, exactly. And that can be very distracting. So if you are working with a high open leader, you are probably extremely frustrated. They keep wanting to try new projects.

• 1:40:41Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think if I'm building a company, I should look for people that are equal in openness to me? Or should I look for counterbalances?

• 1:40:47Speaker 00

  That's it.

• 1:40:48Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, but are they gonna frustrate me?

• 1:40:50Speaker 00

  They are gonna frustrate you, but they're gonna keep you in check.

• 1:40:52Steven Bartlett?

  True.

• 1:40:52Speaker 00

  Right, like, you should never have your CFO as a high open person.

• 1:40:57Steven Bartlett?

  True, that's very true. That's so interesting.

• 1:40:59Speaker 00

  Right, so like, the best people, diversity of hiring is so important in personality. The mistake I see in corporate, because I do personality trainings for corporate, is managers hire their same personality. And they're all having the same problems. They can never have follow through. And that brings me to conscientiousness.

• 1:41:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:17Speaker 00

  Conscientiousness is where I think opposites attract. This is where I think that works. Conscientiousness is your approach to detail.

• 1:41:25Speaker 00

  So it's high conscientious people love. Like, I'm high conscientious. I love alphabetizing. I love color coding. Office supplies make me so happy. I love Post-it notes and files. I like purses with 15 different compartments. Am I losing you?

• 1:41:43Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you've lost me.

• 1:41:44Speaker 00

  Okay, I've lost you.

• 1:41:45Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:45Speaker 00

  Because you're medium open. I mean, sorry, you're medium conscientious.

• 1:41:48Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, all the things you just described, I'm absolutely none of those things.

• 1:41:51Speaker 00

  Right, because you're medium.

• 1:41:52Steven Bartlett?

  But I like detail in work. Like, I like work to be gray. I like us to care about details, but I'm not organized in the way that you described.

• 1:41:59Speaker 00

  Right, and also, you're not doing all the details.

• 1:42:02Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 1:42:02Speaker 00

  Right, you have a team doing the really difficult details of the research or the editing, because you can do it, but you're not super, super conscientious. I'm super, super high conscientious, so I love the details. I have a color-coded calendar for my family, for example. I'm the only one who looks at it.

• 1:42:16Steven Bartlett?

  I wish I was more like that.

• 1:42:18Speaker 00

  So highly successful people typically are more conscientious. And this is what we have to remember is, they've studied this. Two low conscientious people in a marriage have more financial problems.

• 1:42:28Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 1:42:30Speaker 00

  So unfortunately, this is one where high conscientiousness can help you a lot in marriage, with finances, in business. But medium is okay. So if you're low, you can work on dialing up your conscientiousness with tools, with training, with habits books. That's why habits books are always on the bestseller list. It's because all the low conscientious and medium conscientious people of the world know, ooh, if I want to be successful, I just have to get more habits. By the way, on the first date with Ashley and Kendrick, Ashley said that she had a spreadsheet for how she spends her days. And he was like, whoa, a spreadsheet. And she showed in that answer that she was super high conscientious. That is really good to know in a new relationship is someone's high or low conscientious. A high conscientious person, they will never be late, but they get very mad if you're late.

• 1:43:16Speaker 00

  So it's really good to know the conscientiousness of your team and of your partner. So you can better predict their behavior.

• 1:43:21Steven Bartlett?

  Is there an element of neurodivergence here as well? Because I'm thinking if someone has ADHD or.

• 1:43:25Speaker 00

  Yes, I think that they're actively studying this now. I think neurodivergence, neurodiversity, there is personality trends with that. I don't know exactly what they are yet, but I know that they're looking at how does this neurodivergent community deal with conscientiousness or openness? I know that also, for example, neurodivergent folks have a different chemical response to even eye contact. So like I talk about eye contact a lot, but I have to be very aware for my neurodivergent community, eye contact is harder for them. And that is because when they're connecting, they want to be processing and thinking. So it's much harder, more distracting for them if they're making eye contact. So there's a lot of ways in which they are having a different response to an interaction or a connection. Okay, extroversion. So this is the one that this is the cool kid.

• 1:44:08Speaker 00

  I call it the cool kid of personality is that everyone talks about extroverts and introverts. But actually ambiverts are much more interesting to me. And most people are ambiverts. They fall somewhere in between extrovert and introvert. Introverts get energy from being alone. Extroverts get energy from being with others. Ambiverts can dial up into extrovert energy, but they need a lot of recharge time. Like I slept like 11 hours last night in preparation for this interview. Like I knew that it was going to be a lot of intense like interaction time. So I wanted like a lot of flat laying in bedtime because I'm ambivert leaning towards introvert. I get energy from the right people, but I can't do a lot of socializing.

• 1:44:45Steven Bartlett?

  Are you like this off camera? Like if I asked your husband what you're like when if I said to your husband, do an impression of Vanessa, show me what that impression would look like Vanessa at home.

• 1:44:54Speaker 00

  It would be this, but weirder. Like I'm like, I'm like a weird person at home, but it would be totally like this, but but bigger because at home I'm really comfortable. Like I'm a silly mom, like with my girls, like I'm dressing like a dinosaur. I'm doing dance routines. Like I'm very silly at home. He would probably say bigger if you were to ask him.

• 1:45:11Steven Bartlett?

  Bigger.

• 1:45:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, like more animated than I am.

• 1:45:13Steven Bartlett?

  You're more animated.

• 1:45:14Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh. Do you think I'm bad animated?

• 1:45:16Steven Bartlett?

  I thought you were pretty animated.

• 1:45:17Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh. I'm even more animated probably at home.

• 1:45:21Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:45:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I'm even more comfortable.

• 1:45:23Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:45:23Speaker 00

  I'm putting on plays with my girls, like I'll, I'll do the whole Frozen soundtrack. I wouldn't do that for you here, but at home I would.

• 1:45:30Steven Bartlett?

  How many episodes we got to do before you do the frozen soundtrack?

• 1:45:32Speaker 00

  A billion.

• 1:45:33Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:45:34Speaker 00

  No one will be with us if we do a billion episodes. Okay, so extroversion is important. Now, this happened on the date as well, is he said, "I'm a super extrovert." And she said, "Oh, I don't go out that much." This can also be an issue in a relationship. If someone is super extroverted, they need lots of people time versus someone who is very introverted. They don't want the people time. That is constant tension in a relationship. You also have roles in a company where I'll notice that people will hire for a role where the role requires extroverting. For example, if you're in sales, you cannot be introverted. It's very hard to be introverted because you're having a cold call. You'll have to schmooze and build rapport. You have to enjoy those networking events.

• 1:46:15Speaker 00

  So it's important to factor in what is the ideal personality for this role? So for example, I have roles in my company where I actually don't want an extrovert. Like, I don't want to chit chat. I don't want you socializing. Like, I want you to be super high conscientious and really direct. I, we've, we've had this where I've had a role where I had to let someone go because she wanted to chat too much.

• 1:46:41Speaker 00

  And I was like, "I can't. I can't chat. I don't, I don't have capacity to chat. I just, like, let's, let's work right side by side, but don't talk to me." Kind of not really, do you know what I mean? You know what I mean? Where like, I, I knew that our team wasn't extroverted enough for her. And so you want to really be careful about hiring a role for your personality. So extroverts.

• 1:47:01Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 1:47:02Speaker 00

  Oh, by the way, um, the best leaders are high extroverts. I found this.

• 1:47:06Steven Bartlett?

  High extroverts?

• 1:47:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:09Steven Bartlett?

  What am I?

• 1:47:10Speaker 00

  You're middle.

• 1:47:11Steven Bartlett?

  Two stars out of three.

• 1:47:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, middle, middle.

• 1:47:13Steven Bartlett?

  Makes sense.

• 1:47:14Speaker 00

  Like, I think that if you were out schmoozing more, it might help your business, but might not, might be distracting to you. But that's what the research says.

• 1:47:22Steven Bartlett?

  I think if I was more extroverted, I'd be a better leader. I think my business would be more successful. Because I think you'd find it easier to form new relationships.

• 1:47:30Speaker 00

  And we could dial that up for you, but you couldn't completely change. We could dial up your extroversion, but it would take a lot of energy. That's the thing is we can change anything we want, but you probably can only change it 30 to 40%. It's going to take a lot of energy. And the question is, do you want to do that? Okay, agreeableness. Agreeableness is the hardest one to get. The agreeableness is your approach to teamwork. Highly agreeable people want everyone to like them and typically say yes to everything. They're agreeable. So the problem with agreeable people on a team is you ask them for something and they're like, oh, sure, yes.

• 1:48:03Steven Bartlett?

  I know those people.

• 1:48:04Speaker 00

  But they shouldn't say yes.

• 1:48:06Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:06Speaker 00

  And that is because they so want to be liked and they so struggle with people pleasing and boundaries. They don't have enough value in their own boundaries. They'll say yes to anything, but then they can't really do it. You have to be careful with a highly agreeable person because they often overcommit.

• 1:48:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. I tend to find someone that's very agreeable. They, especially in the context of business, when you're trying to figure out what the correct answer is. You have a problem and you're trying to pass out what the correct answer is. You never end up going to them because they will say either what they think you want to hear or they'll just take whatever your idea was. You never get good feedback from an agreeable person.

• 1:48:41Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:48:42Steven Bartlett?

  You never get honesty.

• 1:48:43Speaker 00

  Yes, because they can't. I have trouble with highly agreeable people as friends. And that's because they'll often, I'll be like, hey, do you want to go to this concert in two weeks? Oh, yeah. And they cancel on me last minute. Always. Because in their minds, like, maybe, but probably not. But they're afraid to tell me.

• 1:48:59Steven Bartlett?

  You don't want your CFO to be agreeable.

• 1:49:01Speaker 00

  No. Now, let's talk about low-agreeableness. Low-agreeableness, those folks default to no. They are highly skeptical. They don't usually want, they will not do something for getting along. And because they default to no, they typically can be dream killers.

• 1:49:18Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:19Speaker 00

  So if you're in a pitch or a presentation and they're like, nah, it never work. Nah, it'll never work. Or you know you're with a low-agreeable person if they Google fact-check everything you say. Now, you have to know when to leverage them. Like, I know when to leverage my low-agreeable people. I know when I want to go to them. Like, my husband can be very low-agreeable. In fact, leaders are often low-agreeable. Because they can't say yes to everything. They have to be willing to say no. They have to be willing to have people be angry at them. So I know when I go to my husband for an idea, I have to be ready. Ready for the dream killing. Because he's going to be hard on me, and that's good. The last one. My favorite neuroticism. Neuroticism is how you approach worry. So you're medium. A high neurotic is a worrier. This is me.

• 1:50:04Speaker 00

  High neurotics believe that worrying is an investment in failure prevention.

• 1:50:10Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:11Speaker 00

  We worry to protect ourselves. And here's what's really important to know. Low neurotics are very emotionally stable. They usually don't worry. They say things like, don't worry about it, or it'll all work out. They do that because they actually have a different chemical response to negative events. What they found is that high neurotics, like me, we carry the short form of the serotonin transporter gene. Serotonin makes us feel calm. It makes us feel like everything's going to be OK. High neurotics, we produce less serotonin more slowly. So if something bad happens to me, let's say I get a bad email. My adrenaline shoots up, my cortisol shoots up, I begin to worry. My body is slow to respond with the serotonin that will say, it's OK, it'll be OK.

• 1:50:55Speaker 00

  So I literally have a negative response for longer. That is why we worry. High neurotics chemically feel things worse than low neurotics. So in a relationship, low neurotics are like, why are you worrying about this? You can't do anything about it anyway. And the high neurotic is like, because if it happens, it will feel very bad. And my serotonin hasn't kicked in yet. So my husband is low neurotic, I'm high neurotic. This is a great match.

• 1:51:20Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a gender stereotype here?

• 1:51:22Speaker 00

  Yes. So women are typically higher in neuroticism and higher in agreeableness. So they've actually studied the difference between genders. Women are higher in neuroticism and agreeableness than men. Men are also typically higher in extroversion.

• 1:51:35Steven Bartlett?

  So women are typically higher in worrying.

• 1:51:37Speaker 00

  Yes, and yes, people.

• 1:51:39Steven Bartlett?

  And people pleasing.

• 1:51:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:51:40Steven Bartlett?

  And men are typically lower in worrying and less likely to care about people pleasing.

• 1:51:44Speaker 00

  And more extroverted by nature, typically.

• 1:51:47Steven Bartlett?

  We take our time when it comes to hiring at FlightStory because I fundamentally believe the success of a business is directly linked to how good you are at hiring. And better hiring starts with smarter insights. LinkedIn, who's a sponsor of this podcast, has some of the strongest hiring data available to help you identify the best candidates for your business. Their platform will even pair you with those who match what you're looking for, which might lie outside of the job description and more in their unique skills and interests. Because these days, hiring isn't just about finding the most qualified person, but also finding the one whose experience, abilities, and interests align with your company's mission. And it goes beyond candidates who are applying for jobs too. In any given week, 171 million members who aren't actively seeking jobs are open to new opportunities.

• 1:52:32Steven Bartlett?

  Find your next great hire on LinkedIn and start today by posting your job for free just by visiting LinkedIn.com/DOAC. So if I'm sat listening to this conversation right now and I'm sat next to somebody and I'm like, I think they might be a narcissist.

• 1:52:48Speaker 00

  Oh, no.

• 1:52:50Steven Bartlett?

  And I'll turn to them now. So if you're sat next to somebody who thinks a narcissist, just turn to them and say, hey, we should do this personality test on Vanessa's website. What score on the personality test would I be looking for to spot a narcissist?

• 1:53:02Speaker 00

  Oh, goodness. Okay, so narcissists tend to be higher in extroversion. They typically love to be around people because it feeds their narcissism. Again, that does not mean that all extroverts are narcissists. I don't know about conscientiousness. I don't know if that correlates. Typically narcissists are lower in agreeableness because they believe in themselves so much that they don't, they're like, I don't need people to agree with me. I'm totally great by myself. Typically, they're lower in neuroticism because they don't worry. They're like, everyone likes me. I'm so great. Why should I be worried? And I don't know about openness. So luckily, whatever their answer is, you don't have to be too worried, but you do want to have a conversation that goes like this.

• 1:53:44Speaker 00

  I see that you're really low in neuroticism, which means you don't worry about things. When has that served you? And when has that not served you? The most important thing about personality is first analyzing yourself, knowing where you fall. Second is analyzing someone else. How do they fit with you? And the last step is do you optimize or compromise? A narcissist will not compromise with you. So you'll find out if they're a narcissist. If as you talk about the compromises, they won't. When they talk about how they're neurotic, they never had a problem with it. Oh, their agreeableness? It's always been great. Oh, their extroversion? They're perfect. Their conscientiousness? They do everything right. They've never made a mistake. Their openness? Their way is the better way. A narcissist typically believes their personality traits are perfect.

• 1:54:29Speaker 00

  Typically. So it's actually not their score. It's how they relate to the score.

• 1:54:33Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 1:54:34Speaker 00

  That should be a red flag.

• 1:54:35Steven Bartlett?

  And you said at the start of the conversation, certain personality traits correlate with longevity.

• 1:54:40Speaker 00

  Yes, they've studied this. So you want to guess which personality traits last, live the longest?

• 1:54:46Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I'd say if you're high conscientious, then you're going to live pretty long.

• 1:54:50Speaker 00

  Number one.

• 1:54:50Steven Bartlett?

  Because you're not going to take many risks. You're not going to fuck up.

• 1:54:51Speaker 00

  But there's a close second.

• 1:54:52Steven Bartlett?

  Health.

• 1:54:53Speaker 00

  So high conscientious people are very good at habits, exercising, brushing teeth, taking their medication. And there's one more that correlates to longevity.

• 1:55:01Steven Bartlett?

  I'm going to say a high extrovert.

• 1:55:04Speaker 00

  There's, yes.

• 1:55:04Steven Bartlett?

  Because you make more friends.

• 1:55:05Speaker 00

  That's it.

• 1:55:06Steven Bartlett?

  You have a partner.

• 1:55:07Speaker 00

  That's it. So if you are a high extrovert, you have a support system. You invest in your support system. And you're getting a constant dose of oxytocin and serotonin, which makes you feel so good, which makes you feel belonging, which means you seek out people when needed help.

• 1:55:19Steven Bartlett?

  So who?

• 1:55:19Speaker 00

  Anyone advice.

• 1:55:20Steven Bartlett?

  Extroverts live longer.

• 1:55:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. Extroverts and high conscious people live longer. You want to know who lives the shortest? Can you guess?

• 1:55:29Steven Bartlett?

  You tell me.

• 1:55:30Speaker 00

  The people who live the shortest, who have the lowest lifespan are high neurotics. We worry ourselves to death. We have more chronic stress, more anxiety and more depression. So neurotics have an issue. And this is me. We have a problem with our serotonin, right? Serotonin is very complicated. I was doing a lot of research on this. If I don't produce as much serotonin, and I produce it more slowly, I'm having far more negative experiences than the same person in the room. Like, if I'm in a car, and we almost get in a car accident, and I'm the high neurotic, that affects me all day long. I'm like jittery and jumpy all day. And people are like, "What are you talking about? We didn't even get in an accident." It's because their serotonin kicked in right away, began producing, and they're like, "Oh, we're good."

• 1:56:13Speaker 00

  Whereas mine is like a slow, faltering car. It's like...

• 1:56:16Steven Bartlett?

  I know people like that. I feel sorry for them.

• 1:56:19Speaker 00

  Exactly, and they don't live as long. So I am working very, very hard in my life to, one, dial up my extroversion to have a really strong support system, because I know that supports me both mentally and longevity-wise. But I'm also working on how to curb my neuroticism, to dial down my worry, to know that it's not an investment in worry prevention. Worrying more does not prevent bad things from happening, but having resilience does.

• 1:56:43Steven Bartlett?

  What about optimism and pessimism?

• 1:56:45Speaker 00

  You know, optimism is not a part of the personality spectrum. However, high neurotics tend to be more pessimistic.

• 1:56:53Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:56:54Speaker 00

  Right? So the more you worry, the more you think bad things will happen.

• 1:56:59Steven Bartlett?

  Did you read or hear about that study? A study in 2015, where they looked at the blood test results of extroverts, found that they had stronger immune responses than introverts.

• 1:57:08Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. Doesn't that make so much sense? So extroverts, there's a lot of things happening for extroverts. One, is they're exposing themselves to lots of different immune systems. So they're getting more antibodies by exposing themselves to lots of different immune systems. But, two, when they're with people, they're happier. If you're an introvert, and you're with someone, and you're unhappy and stressed, your cortisol is up, your adrenaline is up, you're not having as good of a time. Whereas an extrovert is getting all this energy, getting all this dopamine, which is fueling them, which is making them feel better, which makes them stronger.

• 1:57:37Steven Bartlett?

  I was reading about something a couple of years ago as well that showed that if you have stronger social connections, it's like an insulator of stress.

• 1:57:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:57:45Steven Bartlett?

  So then if you're lonely and you experience stress, you physiologically feel it worse.

• 1:57:50Speaker 00

  It's stress insurance.

• 1:57:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:51Speaker 00

  Like, investing in your friendships, the reason why I talk about it so much, it is stress insurance. And by the way, lifelong singles, they can predict lifelong singles. So lifelong singles typically low in openness.

• 1:58:05Steven Bartlett?

  Which means?

• 1:58:06Speaker 00

  They don't want to try new things. They don't want to go to new places. They don't want to go to new restaurants. They won't go out and meet new people because they're low in openness, low in extroversion, so they don't get energy from being around people, and they're low in contentiousness. They can't even plan it. That is a trifecta of you're gonna have a hard time meeting your friends, meeting your people, because you don't get energy from people. You're not open to meeting new people, and you cannot have follow through with trying to get the habit to get those new people. This episode is really important for those people because it means, A, you're not alone. There's other people who have this. Two, it could be your genetics at work. I think that sometimes people get like down on themselves for it. And I'm like, look, like, it could be how you're wired. You're not set up right to be getting energy from people.

• 1:58:50Speaker 00

  Okay, we have to work on that. That means we have to find the right people in the right situation. So if I have that person, I have a lot of lifelong singles, who are my students, I say, okay, we can do this. We can do this. Okay, you don't get energy from people. You're a low extrovert. Where do you get energy? Knitting, okay. Books, great. Hiking, great. Extreme sports, great. That's where I want you to hang out. I want you to get energy from the activity, not the people. So that way, you're getting all this good stuff from the activity. Meeting people becomes a side effect, and it's easier to be extroverted, to fight with that extroversion, because you're like, oh, they're doing the same activity. And you don't even have to be high open. Because if you love that extreme sport, go to the same place every week at the same time, but do it all over the city.

• 1:59:34Speaker 00

  That way, the first time is gonna be hard, but it's a ritual, it's a habit. And then whoever's coming in new, that's your app. That's your target and people. So there's ways to do this. You just have to invest a little bit in it. I truly believe that lifelong singles can find their person. They just have to be looking in the right ways.

• 1:59:51Steven Bartlett?

  Is it important for me to know someone else's personality type when I meet them?

• 1:59:56Speaker 00

  When you first meet them, you don't have to know their personality right away. However, they've found that you can tell many of the personality traits from a handshake. From a handshake. So like, if we handshake.

• 2:00:08Steven Bartlett?

  I'm like, overthinking it now.

• 2:00:11Speaker 00

  He like didn't shake my hand.

• 2:00:12Steven Bartlett?

  I was like overthinking it because I was gonna do.

• 2:00:14Speaker 00

  What were you gonna do? Don't do anything crazy.

• 2:00:16Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, okay.

• 2:00:17Speaker 00

  Like pretend that we just met. Right, just pretend, pretend. Oh, it's so good to meet you. Okay, so extroverts shake firmer.

• 2:00:24Steven Bartlett?

  I usually do this as well, so sometimes I do this.

• 2:00:26Speaker 00

  Very good. And that's typically a mark of extroversion. So like that speaks to like a little bit higher on the scale. We tell a lot from a handshake of the firmness, of the length, of the amount of pumps that happen. All of those things are informing that sort of like our brains like like figuring out someone's personality. So you can actually pay attention to what your instinct is. It's probably right. They've even found the weirdest, this is like the weirdest. They did a study where they observed people shaking hands and they filmed them and found that in that minute after shaking hands, almost everyone touched their nose or their face. And they found that their nasal dilation increased, meaning when we shake someone's hand, we're kind of smelling their hand.

• 2:01:08Speaker 00

  Like I smell you. It's so weird. It's so weird, but that's what we're doing. It's because we're sussing out something about their personalities. There's a lot, I think, under the surface that we don't even realize is happening. Like I swear that when I shake a nervous person's hand and I smell my hand, I get a little bit nervous.

• 2:01:24Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 2:01:24Speaker 00

  Yes, I don't like to be around nervous people because they like to trigger my own nervousness.

• 2:01:27Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:28Speaker 00

  Weirdest, weirdest thing ever.

• 2:01:29Steven Bartlett?

  That's a really interesting thing. Like you get a vibe off people when you meet them.

• 2:01:32Speaker 00

  The vibe is real.

• 2:01:34Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it's so real, isn't it?

• 2:01:35Speaker 00

  That's that first impression, that vibe is so real. Yes, that's why I encourage people to not go to places where they're uncomfortable, because people will pick up on that vibe. Like go places where you thrive. Like go to the, go to the activities, do the things that you actually like, because that's going to come across, it's going to affect your vibe.

• 2:01:50Steven Bartlett?

  This is so true. I did something the other night, actually with the team. Do you remember that thing we did the other night? I probably shouldn't say it. But I went to a place which I'm like really uncomfortable in.

• 2:01:58Speaker 00

  Oh, why'd you do that?

• 2:01:59Steven Bartlett?

  Because they told me I had to go.

• 2:02:01Speaker 00

  Jack. But you didn't like it.

• 2:02:03Steven Bartlett?

  I hated every minute of it.

• 2:02:04Speaker 00

  Right, your vibe was for sure off.

• 2:02:06Steven Bartlett?

  And I looked at myself in the photos after, I was like, fucking hell, you're having a terrible time. Like, you really don't wanna be.

• 2:02:11Speaker 00

  You cannot hide it.

• 2:02:12Steven Bartlett?

  It's like my little thing was like.

• 2:02:14Speaker 00

  You're like terrified. You were probably like really afraid. So I think that like, energy curation is important here.

• 2:02:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it's so important. You can't fake it very easily, can you?

• 2:02:22Speaker 00

  And I don't think we should try to fake it, right? Like, I would much rather you set yourself up for success than say no to the things that don't work for you.

• 2:02:28Steven Bartlett?

  And there's one way that I kind of understand what I think about a person is my vibe. Because it's so interesting doing this podcast. I've met hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. And within the first five seconds, I can feel them.

• 2:02:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:02:42Steven Bartlett?

  And I don't know how to explain it other than, it's almost funny because I sit in my little room doing my research. And then I'll come out, I'll walk around the corner. And within like, three to five seconds, I know whether we're good to go, and we're ready, and we're calm. Or if there's something off.

• 2:02:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:02:59Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:00Speaker 00

  That is real.

• 2:03:00Steven Bartlett?

  There's something off.

• 2:03:01Speaker 00

  That is real. So when you feel that, anywhere, on a date, with someone you're hiring, on a team, you should trust that feeling. Because it is something that we cannot, we have not explained with science yet. It's pheromones, it's the shape of your face, it's the feeling of your hand and mind. It's, there is something happening chemically, physically, and you should trust it. Like, have you ever been led astray from that?

• 2:03:26Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition, as you know, on this podcast, where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is, what are you doing on a daily basis to improve the life of someone else? And how can you serve others better?

• 2:03:47Speaker 00

  This is weird. Of course, of course it is.

• 2:03:53Speaker 00

  I knew I wanted to write books. I actually think of myself as a writer. I wanted to be, I wanted to be a writer. I've always wanted to be a writer. When I started to be a writer in 2007, social media did not exist. Your job as a writer, back then, was to write books. And maybe if you were lucky, you had a three-month book tour. To be totally honest with you, I did not know I was signing up for this.

• 2:04:18Speaker 00

  I didn't, I did not. If you had told me that being a writer would mean sharing videos of my home and my personal life.

• 2:04:29Speaker 00

  Every day, I probably wouldn't have done it. I don't love that part of my job, to be honest with you. And so I know, though, that I have to share on video every day, every day. Right? To be able to get people to read my books.

• 2:04:44Steven Bartlett?

  Which part of it don't you like?

• 2:04:46Speaker 00

  All of it. I mean, all of it.

• 2:04:48Steven Bartlett?

  Which part do you hate the most?

• 2:04:51Speaker 00

  Trying to synthesize something very complicated into 60 seconds.

• 2:04:56Speaker 00

  I don't like it. I think communication is very complex. But I know it's essential to boil down a tip into a hook and then a framework. And I don't love that. And so when my career started to change, like I was writing books and then it was like, oh, it's, you know, 20% of your job is marketing. Now 30% of your job is marketing. Now 50% of your job is marketing. Now writing books is six months of writing and the rest of your life is marketing. I did not sign up for that. So I get up every day and I post videos on my stories and on my social media. And I do that to serve. I did not do that because I like it. And if I could skip it, I would, but I can't. And it's how I'm able to write books.

• 2:05:40Speaker 00

  And so that is how I serve.

• 2:05:43Steven Bartlett?

  Vanessa, you are, you are an extremely rare force in this art form.

• 2:05:50Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:05:50Steven Bartlett?

  You really are. It's, I, I loved, it's so funny on the podcast when I love having, I love the conversation I have with somebody. And I walk away with it feeling like I need to watch it back again and take notes because there's so many new concepts that feel so valuable to me. But then to see the way that the world reacted to you.

• 2:06:06Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh, it was incredible.

• 2:06:08Steven Bartlett?

  Unbelievable. It was insane.

• 2:06:10Speaker 00

  I feel like I met like eight million new best friends. That's kind of what it felt like. I mean, as of now, I think the video is like eight million. I don't even, that doesn't even count audio.

• 2:06:18Steven Bartlett?

  It's the most downloaded audio episode we've ever had of all time. So it means that's probably another six or six or seven million people or something.

• 2:06:26Speaker 00

  And it, it really did feel like I found my people. I felt like, literally, it was like finding eight million new friends, where I met eight million recovering awkward, trying to connect, trying to figure it out, people who are like learners. And we were just flooded with love. And it re-energized everything that I do because I was like, I have got to help everyone. Like, I have got to be more helpful. And so like, it was just such a gift. Like, thank you for giving me the space and asking the questions because I just have met the most amazing people.

• 2:06:58Steven Bartlett?

  You deserve it.

• 2:06:59Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 2:07:00Steven Bartlett?

  It's a special gift.

• 2:07:01Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 2:07:01Steven Bartlett?

  It's blown my mind how desperate and hungry people are for this information.

• 2:07:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:07:07Steven Bartlett?

  Vanessa, thank you so much for being here again. I really appreciate you. And thank you for the, you had a profound impact on our show. You brought millions of new people to our show that had never listened before. So we owe you tremendously and thank you for what you're doing. You're a very unique person. You have all the right balance of like wisdom, articulation. You're challenging, but in the best possible way. So, and you're weird and you know you are and you own it, which makes it admirable, endearing and a force for change. Because so many other people out there are struggling to step into their own sort of weird, authentic selves. Vanessa, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. It's wonderful to see you again.

• 2:07:41Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:07:41Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you for the, from the gazillions of people that stopped me in the streets and in the gyms and everywhere I went and sent me messages and just like overwhelmed me with this like wave of appreciation because of that episode and shared it with their friends like crazy. Thank you on behalf of all of them too. Please keep doing what you're doing, okay?

• 2:07:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I will.

• 2:07:58Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you. The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid. But what if you had the right question to start them with? Every single guest on The Diary of a CEO has left behind a question in this diary. And it's a question designed to challenge, to connect and to go deeper with the next guest. And these are all the questions that I have here in my hand. On one side, you've got the question that was asked, the name of the person who wrote it. And on the other side, if you scan that, you can watch the person who came after, who answered it. Fifty-one questions split across three different levels, the warm-up level, the open-up level and the deep level. So you decide how deep the conversation goes. And people play these conversation cards in boardrooms at work, in bedrooms alone at night

• 2:08:42Steven Bartlett?

  and on first dates and everywhere in between. I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below and you can get yours at thediary.com.