The Chronic Philanderer

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? He's been cheating on her for years, and she's had enough. Now she wants to know: is he in or is he out? Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

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• 1:08Speaker 02

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• 1:41Speaker 03

  To be honest, I'm waiting for him to make a decision because obviously I can't.

• 1:46Esther Perel?

  Nine months ago, this woman found out that her husband had reconnected with a childhood girlfriend in his hometown, where he went to visit his ailing mother.

• 1:59Speaker 05

  And I remember that first night, I went to the bathroom and I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, "Listen," I was like, "We're good. You've got this. This is fine. I have this under control."

• 2:11Esther Perel?

  It's been nine months that they're grappling with the ravages of disinfidelity, but also decades long of acting out on his part proceeding.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  Little did I know that he had been going online to all these different chat rooms.

• 2:27Speaker 05

  At first, I kind of wanted to seek the solace of strangers. It happened over time.

• 2:37Esther Perel?

  A decision needs to be made because the other relationship is not over, contrary to what the wife thought. But she wants him to make the decision, and his decision would be not to make a decision.

• 2:52Speaker 03

  He's still just hedging his bets all the time. He won't commit.

• 3:04Speaker 06

  I feel like sometimes I'm living with like a time bomb. He's been telling me he loves me and he wants to be with me. This is where he wants to be. And then at the same time, he's still been in communication with this other person. And I don't trust. I don't trust what he's telling me. Like, over the past nine months, he's said these same things and saying these things to this other woman at the same time. And he's like a chameleon, pleasing whoever he's with based upon what he needs. So, you know.

• 3:35Esther Perel?

  Tell me, that sentence that you just gave me. "He pleases everyone he's with."

• 3:43Esther Perel?

  That's new, or that's the man you've known?

• 3:47Speaker 06

  I think he, yes, he's definitely a perfectionist and definitely someone who goes above and beyond to make people happy or to do well in work. He's there 110%. And I've always known that, and I've always seen that, and I've loved that. But I didn't know what disappointment it was giving him, maybe internally, when he wasn't pleasing somebody.

• 4:22Speaker 06

  He can't let it go. He can't let it go.

• 4:27Speaker 06

  And that is...

• 4:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think that's probably accurate.

• 4:32Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:34Esther Perel?

  Say more. She knows you well, but say more.

• 4:37Speaker 07

  I grew up in, it was just my mother and I. And I think I was always in a position of having to prove.

• 4:49Speaker 07

  I, I think I was very, I was driven early, almost to kind of prove that I more than belonged.

• 4:59Esther Perel?

  I very quickly get a sense that this man has a story. And he repeats the story to himself. The child of the single mother, the only child of divorced in his school. But at the end of the story, he still doesn't really understand why he's doing what he's doing.

• 5:25Speaker 07

  You know, I can't, my, my behavior is not completely explainable. And I don't know if it, it was a midlife crisis or kind of what was happening. And we were so much farther along in these nine months. She says in these nine months that I've said certain things and then done things to negate the things that I've said.

• 5:45Esther Perel?

  You can talk to her.

• 5:46Speaker 07

  And I think in many ways, I've been trying to figure it out, but on my timeline. And while I've been trying to pull away, haven't pulled away exclusively, been able to really cut the cord. But I'm, you know, I'm working on it. And I know that doesn't sound right, but

• 6:10Speaker 07

  it's really all I could, could do at this time.

• 6:15Esther Perel?

  No, I don't think so.

• 6:18Speaker 07

  No?

• 6:18Esther Perel?

  No. I think part of why you seem to be hitting a wall. See, it's because there is a kind of a manifest story. But then there's a latent story and that one isn't clear to you.

• 6:36Esther Perel?

  On some level, you don't really know what's happening to you. You know what you've done.

• 6:41Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 6:41Esther Perel?

  But you don't really know why what? Why now? How come? And I wanted to ask you first, what have you understood so far?

• 6:53Speaker 07

  Of, of my actions?

• 6:54Esther Perel?

  Of you, yeah. Of your actions and most importantly, of what your actions tell you.

• 7:02Speaker 07

  You know, I think there was such a curiosity at the beginning when in the chat rooms, you know, such a curiosity. I I loved getting to know other people. And and and I I described it as fishing because I was basically fishing to try to gather their attention in these chat rooms and how you could do that. And even though there was a sexual component to it, I learned a lot about human behavior. I really did.

• 7:30Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. And what did you learn about you?

• 7:33Speaker 07

  That I was likable. That there was something of value that that people like me, you know, the women like me, you know? And I think along.

• 7:47Esther Perel?

  Because, because, slow down, slow down. Because before that, I thought and felt what?

• 7:55Speaker 07

  Alone, more alone, more isolated.

• 8:00Esther Perel?

  And I thought of myself as what? And you can connect that guy with the teenage one and with the younger one. I am likable and I am not what I've always thought of myself, which is what?

• 8:24Speaker 07

  I rubbed people the wrong way, even when I wasn't trying to rub them the wrong way. I just, I just rubbed people the wrong way and in the chat rooms I might be worth spending a couple of minutes with, you know?

• 8:40Esther Perel?

  But it's low risk.

• 8:42Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 8:45Esther Perel?

  What other tricks did you try?

• 8:51Speaker 07

  I stumbled on this name dopamine in there and I thought that was ironic and I, I, you know, reached out, said something that I probably thought was semi clever and she responded. And I was really trying to stop the whole process at this point. I really was. I didn't want to have anything to do with it.

• 9:17Esther Perel?

  Are you OK listening to this?

• 9:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I, I want to listen.

• 9:24Esther Perel?

  You do?

• 9:24Speaker 06

  I mean, yeah.

• 9:25Esther Perel?

  Because I can also take a few minutes alone with him.

• 9:28Speaker 06

  No, because I know about this person and I'm, I need the truth.

• 9:36Esther Perel?

  It's interesting, right? Because what I'm hoping to do with him and with you is to get away from the truth about the other people

• 9:48Esther Perel?

  and get closer to the truth about him.

• 9:51Speaker 06

  I know.

• 9:52Esther Perel?

  If he starts to talk now about the women, to me, it's a deflection.

• 9:58Speaker 06

  I agree, I agree.

• 10:00Esther Perel?

  So, as seductive as it may be to hear about her and to think you're gonna find something there or he's gonna find something there, but I hope that you leave here with things that you haven't yet talked, felt, or thought about. And I think you may get more from understanding the meaning than the facts. And some of this is gonna be for you to not fall into your typical stories.

• 10:36Esther Perel?

  If you just tell it as the next anecdote, you won't learn anything new about you.

• 10:43Esther Perel?

  And this is true for all of us. We have a way of thinking about ourselves. We have a way of understanding ourselves. And then we pile up stories that come to confirm it. But the truth doesn't lie there. And the understanding doesn't lie there.

• 10:58Esther Perel?

  You may stay in this marriage. You may leave this marriage. And you won't have understood squat.

• 11:05Esther Perel?

  The issue is not can you make a decision? You don't know what the decision is about. It is about the marriage and not the marriage, but it's also about what happened to you.

• 11:16Esther Perel?

  And with the latest woman and the latest installment, but also throughout your life.

• 11:22Esther Perel?

  And this I say to you too. You kind of organize yourselves around, we must make a decision.

• 11:29Esther Perel?

  Does he stay in the attic? Or does he come back to the bedroom?

• 11:32Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 11:35Esther Perel?

  Tell me something. What happened in the car?

• 11:41Esther Perel?

  One part of his story that did seem to matter a great deal was a recent interaction with his teenage daughter in the car.

• 11:54Speaker 07

  They made a crack about me not being their real father.

• 11:57Esther Perel?

  Who is they?

• 11:58Speaker 07

  My children.

• 12:01Speaker 07

  Where I felt super disrespected, which I haven't done well with my whole life, obviously. That would be a trigger point for me.

• 12:07Esther Perel?

  And they said you were not their father because?

• 12:10Speaker 07

  Well, because we had problems having babies and we needed a donor. And we told them at a very early age, in an effort to be healthy, that mommy and daddy needed some help.

• 12:22Speaker 07

  And so, you know, I went through two surgeries and we really, we did everything we could. We went to the top of the line.

• 12:34Speaker 07

  I had a backup. I had a donor backup.

• 12:37Esther Perel?

  Did you tell the daughters how hard you worked on this? How much you tried? They know all of that. So, basically, they knew that this is your Achilles' heel?

• 12:48Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 12:48Esther Perel?

  And if they really want to get at you, this is the thing they need to throw at you?

• 12:53Speaker 07

  Pretty much.

• 12:54Speaker 06

  It's just words. Like, they're, they understand, do you know what I mean?

• 12:59Esther Perel?

  They understand nothing. They don't understand how much it hurts him.

• 13:03Speaker 06

  No.

• 13:04Esther Perel?

  And they don't understand how much this may also be at the core of a lot of your acting out.

• 13:13Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 07

  The friend, the woman I grew up with in my hometown.

• 13:24Speaker 07

  You know, she, it's ironic that she has two boys. I also think it's ironic that she's a single mother.

• 13:33Esther Perel?

  Of course, not ironic. It's extremely well chosen. You need enough elements to be able to repeat your story, your origin story, and maybe have the opportunity to play with it and change it.

• 13:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:51Esther Perel?

  But do you know what you're trying to change?

• 13:57Speaker 07

  Myself.

• 13:58Esther Perel?

  I don't know.

• 13:59Speaker 07

  I think in some ways I can actually rewind history for me, right? I could be some, be there for someone who really seems really appreciative too. You know, I mean, one of the things I got in trouble with with her is I stumbled on this book. He's a runner and I I sent him a book that I knew that he would really, really like. Because I

• 14:28Speaker 07

  I wanted him to know that

• 14:31Speaker 07

  I was watching from far that I cared about that I I mean that I wanted him to know that he was valued.

• 14:44Esther Perel?

  I have a sense that what I've just watched is a very old dynamic here. Whereby he highlights how the girls make him feel that he's not legit. By throwing at him the genetic factor. They can really go and say, you're not my dad. Something that kids often will say to parents when they're upset. But when there is a piece of truth to it, some element, even though he's raised them from day one. They really know where they're aiming. And then the mother tries to defend the girls by just saying it's just words. The girls don't understand what he's going through, but in that moment, maybe the mother doesn't either. And so he experiences that as a microaggression.

• 15:28Esther Perel?

  He doesn't say it, I'm not even sure it's conscious. And then when he cries about how he was able to be so kind to the son of his lover. Who doesn't question his DNA? And so his competence and his legitimacy is intact. Then he's basically firing back a microaggression at the wife to say, here, I may be incompetent, but there, I'm deeply appreciated.

• 15:59Speaker 00

  We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astera's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

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• 16:54Speaker 01

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• 17:39Speaker 07

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• 18:12Speaker 07

  You have, you have two girls. They still need you.

• 18:15Speaker 06

  Needs you.

• 18:16Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 06

  They needs, they need a father to, to, to really throw himself into them.

• 18:23Speaker 07

  I know. I just can't change them. I, I, you know, the little ones.

• 18:26Speaker 06

  But you're not supposed to change them.

• 18:27Speaker 07

  I, I can't even, I, I have to wait for them to come to me, you know?

• 18:32Esther Perel?

  Why is that?

• 18:35Speaker 07

  They don't wanna talk about it.

• 18:36Esther Perel?

  No, no, no, no. Don't put it all on them.

• 18:38Speaker 07

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 18:43Speaker 07

  I, I'm, I'm sure. I'm tough on them. And I'm tough on them. I want them to be great. I want them to apply themselves and.

• 18:51Esther Perel?

  So you're replaying the not enough, prove yourself?

• 18:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, I guess so. It's the only way I knew how to get there.

• 19:03Speaker 06

  And they love him so much. And it kills me that he, that, it just kills me.

• 19:11Speaker 06

  But there is like, they, they're all like this with each other, all of them, in different ways, but the three of them are like this with each other.

• 19:17Speaker 07

  No, we go off on our own trips. We, we did that. We used to do that.

• 19:21Esther Perel?

  Don't argue.

• 19:22Speaker 07

  No.

• 19:22Esther Perel?

  Listen for a split second.

• 19:24Speaker 06

  I'm not saying that there's not moments, but I think, I think there is some, some wall or something where I think the older one is more, more mature, more articulate to be able to not be afraid to say what she feels. And she will be very direct about how she feels. And she's not afraid to, to challenge you.

• 19:47Speaker 07

  No.

• 19:48Speaker 06

  The younger one, though, hasn't found a voice yet. And she's in that awkward age where she doesn't even understand what her voice is. I think the younger one doesn't talk because everybody else does the talking for her. And I think.

• 20:02Speaker 07

  She also has her escapes.

• 20:03Speaker 06

  And that's why she escapes.

• 20:05Speaker 07

  Well, she has these darn devices.

• 20:07Speaker 06

  Right.

• 20:08Speaker 07

  And she watches her, you know, repeated television shows.

• 20:11Speaker 06

  It's easier. It's easier. She doesn't have to fight with them. She can think what she wants to think about those shows and not have somebody else tell her, no, you're wrong the way that you're thinking.

• 20:26Esther Perel?

  One moment you get over-involved and you wanna control the whole thing. And the next minute, because you don't succeed at it, you say, fuck it.

• 20:35Speaker 06

  What happened?

• 20:36Esther Perel?

  I've had it. I'm out of here. And then on occasion, you think, no, I'm not gonna do what my father did. I'm not gonna abandon my children.

• 20:46Speaker 07

  Right.

• 20:49Esther Perel?

  But then you say, I wanna be rewarded for that.

• 20:54Esther Perel?

  And they have to make me feel good about the fact that I didn't do what he did.

• 20:58Speaker 07

  Right. Yeah, that's right.

• 21:03Esther Perel?

  And because you're not doing well at home, you find yourself another family where you think you can come in as the shining prince.

• 21:09Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 21:10Esther Perel?

  And if I can't help my daughters, I'll help those little boys. With whom you create this kind of overlapping identification, I once was that boy. And you confuse realities.

• 21:21Speaker 07

  Right.

• 21:24Speaker 07

  And I feel to that end that I'm being where someone also truly needs me and also understands me as well, right? I mean, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not, just, just bear with me here as we go into this. I mean, I'm not, I'm not trying to be hurtful. But I think there's a sense of, you know, you say people have responsibilities, right? And I know I have my responsibilities with you and, and the girls, but I feel terribly guilty having entered her life

• 21:57Speaker 06

  You know what?

• 21:57Speaker 07

  in such a way.

• 21:58Speaker 06

  I understand that really makes you angry. But listen, listen, listen, listen. She's got a family out there, she's got plenty of people to take care of her. She's been taking care of herself and taking care of those boys and doing exactly what she wanted to do and making her choices way before you came into the picture.

• 22:14Speaker 07

  I know.

• 22:14Speaker 06

  And if you kinda can't, you gotta kinda understand that.

• 22:19Speaker 06

  Because I'm actually not here to kinda let you just go and live out your, your other reality.

• 22:26Speaker 07

  I know.

• 22:27Speaker 06

  That's the bottom line.

• 22:28Speaker 07

  I know.

• 22:29Speaker 06

  I've kinda had enough with that. I'm, I've been very like forgiving, I've been very patient. Very patient.

• 22:40Speaker 06

  But you say there's a decision to make. It's time to either actually put the work into this and figure this out. Or just go, so then I can go live my life.

• 22:53Esther Perel?

  He ain't gonna make a decision.

• 22:57Esther Perel?

  You're gonna make the decision.

• 22:58Speaker 06

  I know that, I know. I know that, I know.

• 23:02Esther Perel?

  And you're gonna have to accept that, you know, the way this ends goes is I want him to make the decision so I don't have to be the one that is responsible for breaking up my family. Let him do the dirty job, it's his doing.

• 23:16Esther Perel?

  And so then you end up sitting and waiting, you could wait for a few years like this. The woman is irrelevant. It's all about him.

• 23:27Esther Perel?

  The test for you is to actually stay in a place where you're not doing so well and make it better.

• 23:39Esther Perel?

  Rather than continuously seek out places, people, women in particular, who give you a stage to do mini-performances.

• 23:55Speaker 07

  I don't wanna hurt her anymore. I really don't. I just hope I have enough control to not hurt her anymore.

• 24:06Speaker 07

  I love her.

• 24:07Speaker 06

  I think that's what's so confusing to me.

• 24:12Speaker 06

  I just can't relate to not having control.

• 24:18Speaker 06

  If you know you're gonna do something that's gonna hurt somebody, then just don't do it. Like, I just, it's hard for me.

• 24:27Esther Perel?

  Sometimes, it's very hard to understand the logic of if you know it's gonna hurt, why do you do it? What he's giving to the little boy inside of him,

• 24:42Esther Perel?

  the affirmation, the importance,

• 24:47Esther Perel?

  the whole spiel, the selfish part for him, in that moment takes precedence of everything. It's not what he's doing to others, it's what he's doing for himself.

• 25:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, but then that's like indulgence.

• 25:02Esther Perel?

  Yep.

• 25:04Speaker 06

  That's indulgence.

• 25:07Esther Perel?

  And you will call it indulgence, and he will think that it is primary food. And that's the piece that needs to come out if this is to move. Not because you have to accept it, but because it needs to be at least properly labeled.

• 25:25Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 07

  Why is the little boy so much the forefront right now? Why is he coming on with a vengeance?

• 25:34Esther Perel?

  Because your mother got sick.

• 25:38Esther Perel?

  Because you're about to lose your mother.

• 25:45Esther Perel?

  There was a sincerity to this question. Maybe one of the first moments when he stopped and pondered. And as I'm listening to it, it sounds as if I was kind of impatient with him and dismissive. That was really not the idea. It was more just to say, "It's so obvious. Why now?" But it came out as if I was saying like, "You don't know that? So obvious?" And that's really not okay.

• 26:23Esther Perel?

  You found another woman that actually helps you with your sense of terror and helplessness.

• 26:32Esther Perel?

  In an interesting way, I think it has less to do with this family and more to do with your family of origin.

• 26:38Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 26:38Esther Perel?

  It's more about your mother than your wife and your daughters. The chat rooms, the nannies, all of that, that's a different story. But if you ask me for the timing, what better way to protect yourself against loss than to find someone who is completely dependent on you?

• 26:58Speaker 06

  You know, when you say that, that, you know, there was this emotional connection, this person cares for you and loves you and everything. And I guess I'm going off a little, off track here a little bit, but about me at this moment, but...

• 27:09Esther Perel?

  It's okay. You can insert yourself back into story.

• 27:12Speaker 07

  Please do. Please do.

• 27:18Speaker 06

  You know, it just, it just, it makes me feel diminished. Like it makes me feel replaceable. It makes me feel replaceable. Knowing, you know, one thing he would say to me at the beginning is that if I had met this woman before I met you, this is someone I could have seen myself live my life with. I was so shocked.

• 27:40Speaker 06

  I thought I was finally giving him the family that he needed to complete himself.

• 27:45Esther Perel?

  I know.

• 27:46Speaker 06

  I was giving him the stability. I was trying to be, you know, loving and calm and compassionate and a good mother and... I was trying to do all these things. I thought I was like really giving you everything that you wanted.

• 28:04Speaker 07

  You were.

• 28:05Speaker 06

  And it's like, but that, but that's where it was.

• 28:07Esther Perel?

  Did you hear?

• 28:08Speaker 06

  You were. I was, but it wasn't enough.

• 28:13Esther Perel?

  But that may not be because you're not enough. That's the catch here, is to not translate this as if I was more, he wouldn't do this. Instead of, I was plenty.

• 28:29Speaker 06

  I know.

• 28:30Esther Perel?

  And whatever he did is not a response to you. You have got to know that.

• 28:39Speaker 06

  I know.

• 28:40Esther Perel?

  Okay? No matter how much you've given him, there's a piece of it he's gonna have to do on his own.

• 28:48Esther Perel?

  Or not.

• 28:49Speaker 06

  Or not, or not.

• 28:51Speaker 07

  Can I, can I just say something to qualify the comment that I, this was someone I could live or see myself with a life with. I think in some ways, as warped as it may sound, I felt that was, it's not a compliment to you, but it's the idea that it, this wasn't just a, a floozy. This was someone of substance. The idea was, it was an experience.

• 29:17Esther Perel?

  Yeah. I think the only, or the most important thing at this moment, if you will say something to your wife, has to be about acknowledging how shitty a thing it was to say and how hurtful it was. And not to justify yourself. Seriously.

• 29:42Speaker 07

  I really wasn't trying to hurt her.

• 29:44Esther Perel?

  I don't care if you were trying, but when we do, you own it.

• 29:50Speaker 07

  Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. I am.

• 29:57Speaker 06

  Yeah. And what makes it worse is you keep justifying it. When sometimes it's just, someone just wants to hear, "I'm sorry, and that was wrong."

• 30:10Esther Perel?

  You know, the challenge for you is that you see yourself as a good person and you're doing not good things. And so you keep trying to close the gap.

• 30:25Esther Perel?

  There's a lot of things that have been triggered by the fact that his mother is dying. There's also a lot of acting out. From the chat rooms to the nannies, through all kinds of unsavory behaviors. That really has happened over 20-year period. So it's probably not the wisest thing to just try to come up with one reason to explain a whole behavior.

• 30:55Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 31:11Speaker 06

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• 33:25Speaker 07

  I know I want to stay. I know I want to stay, and I know I want to fix this, and I know I want to... Want to move on. I don't want to have to answer it for it forever.

• 33:37Speaker 07

  And I just want to work on putting it behind me.

• 33:44Speaker 06

  Go with me here. Putting it behind you. We all move forward. But part of putting that behind you is also acknowledging that this happened. And it is part of your story now.

• 34:01Speaker 06

  And it should be the catalyst or the inspiration to be like, where have I gone now because of this?

• 34:10Speaker 07

  I am. I'm acknowledging all that. I just want to talk about it a hundred times a day.

• 34:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, I get that.

• 34:20Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 34:22Speaker 06

  You know, our life obviously hasn't been completely easy. There have been, you know, the whole, everything about our infertility, you know. It took a long, long time. Not only him, but I went through many, many, many, many different treatments and medications, right? Miscarriages, you know, different things. And I've had a lot of loss on my side. I don't have my parents anymore.

• 34:54Speaker 06

  I don't have a sibling anymore. And

• 35:01Speaker 06

  I've had to kind of rush all these emotions along because I needed to kind of, I need to be a wife and I need to be a mother and and I think what I'm feeling right now with all of this, when you say you don't want to talk about it all the time, is that I can't, this one, I just, I can't rush. It's like I've just, if I'm feeling depressed, I'm feeling anxious, or something's triggering me, I shouldn't have to apologize for it. As if that's going to trigger you. I think that's my biggest fear, you know?

• 35:32Speaker 07

  No, it's not about that. Listen, I think we're also a very dramatic family. I think we are.

• 35:37Speaker 06

  Talk to her, don't, don't.

• 35:38Speaker 07

  I mean, I think we are prone to drama and I just think there's, there's a sense of wallowing in it too. You know?

• 35:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, but when you, when you kept all this connection going on with this other person, it's like. I can sense that. It doesn't, I can't really move on and just pick myself up when it's continuing on.

• 36:01Speaker 07

  I know.

• 36:05Esther Perel?

  I like to think sometimes that when a crisis occurs like this in a relationship, it kind of lights up the scorecard of the relationship.

• 36:16Esther Perel?

  The arrangements you made, the spoken and the unspoken compromises, the implicit agreements, the explicit ones. And what I'm hearing from you is, look, husband of mine, something that I realize is that I basically have continuously moderated my own emotional experience by checking in how it would affect you.

• 36:49Esther Perel?

  And if I didn't think you could take it, I would cut my grief short. I just have always asked myself, not what do I feel, but how will it affect?

• 36:59Speaker 07

  You.

• 37:00Esther Perel?

  You.

• 37:03Esther Perel?

  And this has been pretty much the way we've been for 25 years.

• 37:07Speaker 07

  Yes, that's terrible. I mean, I don't want you to do that.

• 37:09Esther Perel?

  That is. It is neither a good thing or a terrible thing. These things are way more complicated than just right and wrong. But now my anger about all the other times when I cut things short because I was thinking of you is coming up because for once in my life, I need you to think about me first.

• 37:30Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 37:32Esther Perel?

  So when, when she says, "I need you to think about me", you can't start coming back and saying, "Honey, on occasion, just be a little happy." This is bullshit. Because you know damn well that part of why she can't is because you keep sniffing under her nose.

• 37:48Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 37:51Esther Perel?

  So you have to be really careful not to push each other out of the door. When actually, nobody really wants to go anywhere.

• 37:59Speaker 07

  Nobody wants to go.

• 38:02Esther Perel?

  I want to ask you something. Because you did mention loss. And you mentioned your parents, and you mentioned your siblings, and you mentioned the miscarriages, and you mentioned the fertility, and you mentioned the sperm donor, and you mentioned your mother. We need to talk about loss.

• 38:23Esther Perel?

  You need to talk to each other about loss.

• 38:33Speaker 06

  I don't want to lose anymore. I can't lose anymore.

• 38:40Speaker 06

  How much more do I put up with because I'm afraid of loss?

• 38:47Speaker 06

  How much more do I put up with?

• 38:51Speaker 06

  How do I trust you?

• 38:53Speaker 07

  Listen, you know, we, we know each other.

• 38:56Esther Perel?

  Hold on one second. Every time you talk, you create a buffer.

• 39:03Esther Perel?

  Just look at her and listen.

• 39:08Speaker 07

  You're killing me.

• 39:11Esther Perel?

  Because there's no screen here. There's no delete button. This one, you can't just control.

• 39:20Esther Perel?

  And you have to actually not pretend you're dealing with distress, but actually be present for the distress.

• 39:34Esther Perel?

  It's the girls too.

• 39:36Speaker 07

  Go ahead.

• 39:39Esther Perel?

  I just want you to...

• 39:42Speaker 07

  I want you not hurt me. I know, I know. I want you to put us first before yourself.

• 39:57Speaker 07

  I never wanted to hurt you. I wasn't... I mean, she's had many friends who've wanted her to end this.

• 40:06Speaker 07

  Be strong, walk out.

• 40:09Esther Perel?

  Why does that make you laugh?

• 40:13Speaker 07

  Um, I don't know.

• 40:19Esther Perel?

  Talk to me about loss.

• 40:22Esther Perel?

  In fact, not talk to me, talk to her.

• 40:27Speaker 07

  I lost the ability to have kids the way most guys have kids.

• 40:34Esther Perel?

  How has that been for you?

• 40:37Speaker 07

  You know, I never thought it was that much. I just rolled with it quick, but obviously it hurts me, right? I love the, the, the, some of, you know, my oldest, she has a lot of similar personality traits. And, um, I, I love those traits. I love her sense of humor. I love her, her spiritedness. And the little one is, is ferociously funny and, but I also feel sometimes distant.

• 41:09Speaker 07

  More distant than I want to be because I don't have that cellular connection. And it hurts me. And it, and, and then it reinforces it when they hit that dig. That I'm not their real father. I, I just feel like some sort of standby.

• 41:32Esther Perel?

  Because he knows that he's not a genetic father, a biological father. He, he then interprets his distance as being rooted in that.

• 41:43Esther Perel?

  But that's a construction. It could have been about anything else. Maybe he's distant because he's too self-involved. Maybe he's distant because he doesn't like to be in a place where he doesn't feel competent. So, everybody's using the same weapon.

• 42:00Esther Perel?

  Him to explain himself, them to push him away and attack him. But if that wasn't the weapon, there would be another way for kids to tell their parents, "I love you, you know, you're not my real person. You know, how can I be your daughter? You mustn't be my father." There's loads of ways that people try to say, you know, "Our relationship is broken." That is the statement, not the origins.

• 42:32Esther Perel?

  You have a way of talking about very painful things in passing.

• 42:38Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 42:39Esther Perel?

  Like two surgeries, like many miscarriages. These things, even though you had your girls and you have to be thankful that they are there, these things, they scar us. And I think if you allowed yourself more of that sadness, you'd be less into your sense of "I deserve."

• 43:03Esther Perel?

  Because you're deserving is kind of the entitlement of the deprived.

• 43:11Esther Perel?

  And when I said to you before, why does that make you laugh? It's because it's the laughter of self-loading.

• 43:18Esther Perel?

  It's not a real laughter. You escape from something and you fantasize into something. And it's the something that we're trying to understand. Otherwise, you're gonna continue to say, "I don't wanna hurt you," and then go call the other lady and hurt her. And in the end, you'll hurt both of them, and you'll have two women who are pissed off at you, who want you, and you will feel so important.

• 43:46Speaker 07

  Ridiculous.

• 43:49Esther Perel?

  You see the dance?

• 43:51Speaker 07

  The thing is, I love this woman. I love this woman. I love her. We're good together. We're good.

• 44:00Esther Perel?

  You're an integral part of our family unit.

• 44:06Speaker 06

  But you're also someone I really

• 44:11Speaker 06

  care about.

• 44:12Speaker 07

  I know. I love you too.

• 44:16Speaker 07

  You know that.

• 44:18Speaker 06

  It is like a roller coaster. That's why I

• 44:22Speaker 06

  I've I've kept going on and on.

• 44:26Esther Perel?

  Yep. And when he says you know that, then your head says, well, if you know that I know, then why do you keep doing things that hurt me?

• 44:34Speaker 06

  Right.

• 44:34Esther Perel?

  Obviously, you don't. So no, I don't know it. Why would I know it? So that one is a slippery slope.

• 44:42Speaker 07

  It is.

• 44:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 44:45Speaker 06

  And that's why I have to say, start saying to myself,

• 44:50Speaker 06

  enough is enough. Enough is enough.

• 44:54Speaker 06

  I don't want to be this person.

• 44:56Esther Perel?

  Which one?

• 44:57Speaker 06

  The person that keeps letting it all slide by.

• 45:01Speaker 06

  I don't want to be that. I don't. There's more to me than that.

• 45:08Esther Perel?

  What would happen? If he moved out, he will move to Ohio?

• 45:12Speaker 07

  No.

• 45:13Esther Perel?

  And what will you do all alone?

• 45:16Speaker 07

  Me.

• 45:16Esther Perel?

  Yes. You will move to Ohio within a week?

• 45:19Speaker 07

  No, probably wouldn't stay there very long.

• 45:22Esther Perel?

  Where?

• 45:23Speaker 07

  Alone.

• 45:24Esther Perel?

  No.

• 45:24Speaker 07

  I don't think so. I don't like being alone.

• 45:29Speaker 07

  I mean, I would try, you know, I don't know, I would try to be alone for a little bit, but I'm sure things would kick back up, right?

• 45:38Speaker 07

  With my friend in Ohio.

• 45:42Speaker 07

  Probably.

• 45:45Speaker 07

  What are you giving me that look for?

• 45:47Speaker 06

  Because it's just, it is true.

• 45:49Speaker 07

  Well, I mean, that's what happened.

• 45:50Speaker 06

  It's like that's what I've been saying all along. It's like, it's like you're lying. You're lying to me. You're lying to her. You're lying to yourself.

• 45:55Speaker 07

  I'm not lying. Actually, I'm not lying.

• 45:58Speaker 06

  No, no, no. Exactly. That's exactly true. You're absolutely right. You would be, the reality is, is that within a week, you would, less than a week, you'd be right back into it. And honestly, and I would just divorce you.

• 46:09Speaker 07

  Okay. Isn't it so, isn't it funny how Pat, how quickly we can get to the other side? I mean, it is a slippery slope. I mean, you can start, you can start running down that mountain real quick.

• 46:20Esther Perel?

  But you're provocative.

• 46:23Esther Perel?

  I love you. I love you. I love you. I move out. I'll figure it out. I don't like being alone. I'll solve that problem really fast.

• 46:34Speaker 07

  I just know me. I'm being honest.

• 46:36Esther Perel?

  I didn't say you're not honest. I'm saying you're provocative. You're asking, why did you just go on the other side of the slope? Because you just literally put a banana peel under her foot. And then you say she sleeps.

• 46:54Esther Perel?

  Your honesty is valued, but it has consequences.

• 46:58Speaker 07

  Right.

• 46:58Esther Perel?

  Because in effect, what you're saying to your wife is, not being alone is really the important thing for me. You matter to me, but you know, if you're not there, I'll figure it out.

• 47:09Esther Perel?

  How else is she to understand? What comes out is what leads to the next move. You say this kind of stuff, you're gonna get that kind of answer.

• 47:17Speaker 07

  I know.

• 47:19Esther Perel?

  So if you want an end to this misery,

• 47:24Esther Perel?

  it's true that you will have to have a negotiation with the part of you that says, I deserve this.

• 47:32Speaker 07

  Right.

• 47:34Esther Perel?

  It's less about the child you were and more about the adult you will be.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity: In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.

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