He Doesn't Believe in Marriage, But I Can't Let Go of the Hope

When her younger sister gets engaged, a woman finds herself spiraling with unexpected grief and frustration. She’s spent years in relationships with men who shy away from marriage, and the news stirs up deeper childhood wounds—secrets about her family and questions of belonging. With Esther’s help, she begins to face the shame she’s carried and the tricky balance between wanting to be seen and wanting to stay true to herself. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  My youngest sister just got proposed to. And the hurt, the heartache that I feel, it's so overwhelming. My partner of eight years is amazing. After multiple, multiple conversations that we had, he just doesn't believe in the institution, doesn't believe in the ritual, doesn't believe in the romantic side of it. And he made it very clear that this is not the path for us. And most of the time, I'm OK with that. I can't kill the hope, but I live happily. And those moments when somebody close to me experiences something that I deeply so much desire,

• 0:45Speaker 00

  I feel the pain really, really deep. My other sister, I'm the oldest of the three, also got proposed about three years, four years ago. And it was also a very difficult experience. And I remember processing it in a little bit different way. I think I tried to just bottle my emotions and pretend that I didn't need it. Today, it's a bit different. I feel like I want to let those emotions out. Growing up as a child from a different biological father to my sister's, created quite a deep wound for me of being somehow not enough, or different, or just outcasted. Maybe this experience is kind of replicating this desire. Because I had multiple relationships,

• 1:30Speaker 00

  and we always had that same issue where the person would be against it, and I would drop the relationship. It's just without that ritual, without that jewellery, without that party, without that public declaration. But that pain, like I feel now, it makes me feel like maybe it will never go away.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Are you a pet owner? Every six seconds, a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill over $1,000. Always an unwelcome surprise. That's where Fetch comes in. Fetch is the most complete pet insurance for dogs and cats, according to consumeradvocate.org. You get paid back up to 90% of vet bills at any vet in the US and Canada with claims paid back in as little as two days. Go to fetchpet.com/save right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.com/save.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  I'm all ears. When I recorded the message, it was the very, the peak of the emotion. I still feel it like, like that. It was, I think it subsided a little bit, but as when I sent it, I don't even remember pressing the button, you know, to record it because it was so raw. It just had happened and it took me by surprise.

• 3:53Esther Perel?

  What took you by surprise? Your announcement or how much it pained you?

• 3:59Speaker 00

  How much it pained me, uh, cause I thought I had already resolved it uh within me and it just clearly showed me that it I didn't um.

• 4:10Esther Perel?

  Can I ask you?

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:11Esther Perel?

  A question about what you said. When you say it hurts so much and there's something about it that taps into my need for belonging, my fear that I'd want and

• 4:30Esther Perel?

  what's the pain point for you?

• 4:32Speaker 00

  It's embarrassment, it's some kind of shame, it's like a pain of being left out, a pain of somehow being not good enough to get into this V A P club. Somehow that there is something broken about me.

• 4:48Esther Perel?

  Right, right, that's that's what I, that's what I heard as well. Why can't I join you? What's it about me that I can't enter here, that I can't be legitimized in this way? Will I always be one down, one out?

• 5:11Speaker 00

  Yes, that that's.

• 5:13Esther Perel?

  That's the fear and that's the feeling.

• 5:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:19Esther Perel?

  Did you, have you brought this at all to your boyfriend? Not with a request, but even just simply, has he ever heard that message?

• 5:29Speaker 00

  Um, yes, he has, because I was resolving other issues of being different and especially when I started exploring this pattern of me being from a different biological father, when I started to get into the topic through. So I have made the connection for him, why is it so difficult for me?

• 5:54Speaker 00

  And I think he does truly understand. But he doesn't really see how deeply it it is affecting me. Wanting something that is beyond him. And he has made it before. That he said it will never be enough for you. And he's not the first man that told me that the ring will never be enough for you.

• 6:18Esther Perel?

  The ring will not be enough for what?

• 6:21Speaker 00

  To be fulfilled or like I've complete or feel like I've arrived or.

• 6:29Esther Perel?

  Is that really the case? I mean, do you experience that too? It's not about is it true, but do you experience some of that? Do you wonder? Is there something deep inside of me that continuously questions my sense of belonging? Or would this symbolically actually give you an experience of being welcomed?

• 6:55Esther Perel?

  Into what you call the VIP club?

• 6:58Speaker 00

  I I think it it does um feel like.

• 7:02Esther Perel?

  Both end?

• 7:03Speaker 00

  Probably both end and also like I do feel that the public declaration that that would means quite a lot to me. So when I imagine or dream about the event. It's usually what brings out the most joy is sharing it with people. And what um so we would be sharing it with my work colleagues or sharing it with my friends or my family. Instead of something like two people experience together. Because I feel like I have all that, like I have the the marriage. I feel like I have it. Uh the relationship is close and we feel connected and.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  And we always think about growing old together. So all that I feel like I I have.

• 7:52Esther Perel?

  Right. Can I ask you to tell me a little bit more about the family constellation that you grew up in? Because what I'm hearing from you is.

• 8:04Esther Perel?

  There is a, there's a set of very deep and painful feelings that travel with you through life. And they originated in your family of origin. And then there is the relationship that you are in. And then there is the meeting between these two.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:23Esther Perel?

  And how one is telling the other, here are some things I need from you. What, how, how did you enter the family you grew up in?

• 8:31Speaker 00

  So, I, it was always a taboo. It was a secret. I, I was never meant to know it. Um.

• 8:38Esther Perel?

  Okay, okay.

• 8:40Speaker 00

  So, uh, we.

• 8:41Esther Perel?

  Okay, let's hold on a second. Just sit with this. Because the secret is on the other side of the public declaration. It's important that we understand why this matters in the way that it does. Otherwise, it's just, we're gonna have, I don't believe in marriage, I don't believe in the institution, I don't, I, I want the ring, I want the white dress, I want, there's something, there's a deeper story here. The, that, that involves shame, that involves secrecy.

• 9:16Esther Perel?

  It's about that, more than about marriage. Hmm? It's the stuff that marriage tries to cover up and sometimes succeeds and sometimes doesn't. So, you, we're not supposed to find out. So there's a story here. Tell me. Can, can you tell me a little bit of the story?

• 9:37Speaker 00

  Yes. So, um, my biological father left us when I was two years old, because he had another family. And my mom met my dad very soon after, and he adopted me, and they decided to never tell. But we lived in a very small town and.

• 9:58Esther Perel?

  Where people don't keep secrets very well.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  Yes, and I started to hear it when I was seven, first from the kids, because they heard it from their adults. In the, in the neighborhood, then they heard it again in school, but I never told them. I wrote in a diary in a separate color. And I remember I used to hate these pages, I used to flick through them, but I, I told them what they told me and.

• 10:23Esther Perel?

  You told who?

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Just the diary. I never really told my parents or anybody about.

• 10:29Esther Perel?

  Told your diary, I know a truth that no one wants to talk about. But you did not approach mom or dad. You called him dad?

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:40Esther Perel?

  Thought he was your dad?

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:42Esther Perel?

  And I didn't approach my parents to let them know that I had heard something. And so how did you, as this little girl, seven years old, live with that discovery? That must have been so heavy, so confusing.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  It was very um heavy and. It was so embarrassing and I hated these people. I can see their faces now when I, I remember them saying it as in their. Chi- childish way, really, saying, well, I've heard that this is not your dad and. But I somehow just pushed it away.

• 11:20Esther Perel?

  Can you say it in the language it was said to you?

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Čenotavotėtis, that's a Lithuanian.

• 11:29Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:29Speaker 00

  Language.

• 11:31Esther Perel?

  And they would make fun of you when they would say it?

• 11:34Speaker 00

  I felt like they pitied me. I felt like they felt.

• 11:37Esther Perel?

  That was exactly the words.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:40Esther Perel?

  Those were children or adults?

• 11:42Speaker 00

  There's some older a little bit, some younger, some of my peers. Um at different stages, um when I was seven and twelve, I think I remember two occasions that. Really stuck in my mind. But then over, over the years, I just never brought it up and.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  I brought it up once to my grandmother, but she said, oh, don't listen to them kids, you know, they talk nonsense. And that was kind of brushed off. So I felt good in the moment, but I still felt like there was something not right. My, my dad showed me so much love. I never, you know, felt excluded. If anything, I felt like more probably paid attention to.

• 12:24Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  But then we had a big conflict when I was eighteen and it kind of came out. Or was about to come out and I just said to him, I, I know what you're gonna say. And he was very surprised, uh, because he couldn't believe that I knew. And I said, I knew all my life, I knew it.

• 12:44Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. That's such a big thing to hold and carry all alone like this.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 12:51Esther Perel?

  Even from people who wished that you would just have a normal childhood, that you would never feel excluded. I mean, in a way, what they wanted so much to achieve by creating the secret is what they ended up.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  Um.

• 13:06Esther Perel?

  Creating.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:09Esther Perel?

  They wanted you not to feel ashamed. They wanted you to feel like you belong. They wanted you to feel that your dad was your dad, that the man who raised you was your loving father. And yet, because you knew it. Then what did you do with those two realities?

• 13:25Speaker 00

  I just, um, I feel sometimes that I had these feelings that my dad wasn't good for me. That somehow I was creating conflict with him. And I think over just past five years, when I started to uncover this and that the deep wounding that it has caused. I started to change the relationship with him and started to say more thank you for what he has done for me. And that I, I know he, he was not perfect. He, he struggled to show love to any of us because of his own upbringing. And he was a bit distant, so the household was run by the women, uh, by my mom, my grandma.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  So my sisters came a lot later than me. And but now I I just feel like our relationship got a lot better since I have spoken about this openly, but not to him. I I spoke to my mom, who still struggles to go back to that time. I still try to piece together the narrative of what happened in those first two years. But it's like pulling and pulling, trying to get more and more information. Unfortunately, my my grandmother, who really wanted to tell me, I think, the story, um she

• 14:48Speaker 00

  passed away before it I started to dig deeper into this um five years ago.

• 14:55Esther Perel?

  So five years ago is when you were eighteen and it all came out?

• 14:59Speaker 00

  So I'm I'm nearly forty, so I so five years ago, I actually started to check.

• 15:06Esther Perel?

  What what happened five years ago? Well, first of all, what happened at eighteen? What was this first revelation when you said to your dad, I know what you're gonna tell me? And he realized that you had lived with a truth or with a secret.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:25Esther Perel?

  That they thought they had been able to keep from you. Hoping to protect you, but in fact, it inflicted a big wound.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  So they.

• 15:36Esther Perel?

  If we had time, I would say what happened at twelve, what happened at seven, and what happened at eighteen, and what happened at thirty-four. Right? Those are four

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:46Esther Perel?

  major milestones for you, but we may not be able to get through all, so let's start with the eighteen.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  So after that, we eh my my parents were going through a very difficult time in their life, in their relationship. I think that's I was always kind of in the middle of this this conflict. Obviously, he was distraught. He thought that he was gonna lose me. Um, and I just wanted to soothe them, say it's fine. It doesn't mean anything. I know that you're my dad. I don't wanna know anything. That was my eighteen year old talking.

• 16:19Esther Perel?

  I'll take care of you, basically. Don't be sad. I will take care of you. Don't worry about it. I'm not gonna hold it against you. And you were all focused on him.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  And mum maybe more even more so.

• 16:32Esther Perel?

  And to mum, you said what?

• 16:34Speaker 00

  That I'm I'm okay, that they don't need to worry about anything. And I was um, soon after left and never came back, so. That moment of the eighteen year old just was I never explored it. I never wanted to go deeper. I just wanted to make sure that they are okay and they're not uh making I'm not making them feel worse.

• 16:58Esther Perel?

  Because making them feel worse, meaning what happened? You your parents had their amount their fair amount of conflict?

• 17:11Speaker 00

  Um.

• 17:13Esther Perel?

  But your mother always had to be thankful that her husband had married her when she already had a child?

• 17:20Speaker 00

  Yes, and um.

• 17:23Esther Perel?

  She had her own shame.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  She had, she still has, I feel. Like this this big, big shame, cuz she was very, very young. I think my dad maybe sometimes used this situation with her. I don't know the the full um story of.

• 17:40Esther Perel?

  But your mum had a relationship with a man who was married.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:47Esther Perel?

  And she was a young woman. And she she got impregnated. And he disappeared. And she had the child alone with the help of her mother.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, and a father, so my.

• 18:01Esther Perel?

  And father. And they welcomed you?

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was so much love. I feel like my grandparents were, I adore them. Well, they're not here anymore, but.

• 18:12Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, but they welcomed you.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes.

• 18:21Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 18:38Speaker 04

  Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. Your work lives in scattered places, and it's not only your team searching for context, your AI agents need it too. Jira taps Atlassian's teamwork graph to bring that context together. Across Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more. And makes it easy to share with the agents you already use, like Claude, Purser, and GitHub Copilot. Assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time hunting for context, less time asking, "Wait, what did we decide?", and more time actually shipping with Jira. Learn more at jira.com.

• 19:20Speaker 04

  That's J-I-R-A dot com.

• 19:26Speaker 05

  Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting, to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at Odoo dot com slash vox. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash vox.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Are you a pet owner? Every six seconds, a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill over $1,000. Always an unwelcome surprise. That's where Fetch comes in. Fetch is the most complete pet insurance for dogs and cats, according to consumeradvocate.org. You get paid back up to 90% of vet bills at any vet in the US and Canada, with claims paid back in as little as two days. Go to fetchpet dot com slash save right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet dot com slash save.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  We lived in this very small household. We lived in a very small space, a lot of us. So I was always protected and felt very loved.

• 21:07Esther Perel?

  And was your mother loved for having gotten pregnant with a married man? Or did the love come to you and the shame went to her? And then she just had to find someone to marry her? And not wonder if that was the man that she wanted to be with? Or loved or felt loved by? That she just had to take whatever was gonna be available to her? Or whoever would want her because she no longer belonged to the VIP club?

• 21:37Speaker 00

  Yes, and it was a small town. It was a lot of shame in there, especially in those years. She had big support though from my extended family. I think they really protected me, all of them.

• 21:53Esther Perel?

  They protected you? And my question is, did they shame her?

• 21:59Esther Perel?

  Not that they needed to do anything very proactively? That behavior in itself?

• 22:05Speaker 00

  She never expressed it, but when I tried to talk to her a few years ago about this, trying to find out the story and narrative, she feels so ashamed and she is... She cannot go there. She struggles and I mean, it's been nearly forty, forty years and she struggles to go there. So I think she still carries this big guilt or maybe shame, shame more than guilt.

• 22:35Esther Perel?

  And how do you think her shame for what had happened to her influenced how she related to you? You say everyone else protected you. How about her?

• 22:50Speaker 00

  I feel like I protected her a lot.

• 22:56Speaker 00

  I felt, I feel like...

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Her emotional state kind of was declaring my safety. So if she was safe, I was okay. Or if she was okay, I I felt safe.

• 23:14Esther Perel?

  Um hum, um hum.

• 23:15Speaker 00

  And if she she was very emotional throughout our lives, tried to control a lot of the environment. And I felt like it was very, we were very codependent. So it felt like we were talking all the time, we were very entwined in our together and separate from from sisters more more so. And I just felt like I needed to break that connection and reconnect in a different way because it felt too painful, it felt unhealthy. It felt really um like she was living her life through me in many ways.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Uh I was always supposed to be the perfect one, to go to get a degree, to get to study, to to be the first one to to achieve things um.

• 24:09Esther Perel?

  All things that she had not been able to do?

• 24:12Speaker 00

  I think so, yeah.

• 24:14Esther Perel?

  So she was gonna live vicariously through you?

• 24:17Speaker 00

  I think she did until like these past years when we started to change the dynamic

• 24:23Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  in the family.

• 24:25Esther Perel?

  So you started a journey of differentiation?

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was very painful, but I I made really big steps. Um since Covid, Covid just opened the whole the whole pot of it, really. Um that's when I started to feel again that shame that I was getting into relationship, another one, a third one, where the marriage was not on the cards.

• 24:53Esther Perel?

  Um hum.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  And I I felt again that I was gonna drop and leave because that's what I always did. I would get committed, I would get to the point and I would leave. And I didn't wanna leave this time, uh this time I wanted to because it so it was so obvious that it was happening again, um exactly the same story with a very different person.

• 25:16Esther Perel?

  Um hum, and exactly the same story meaning?

• 25:19Speaker 00

  That um I get.

• 25:23Speaker 00

  Loving, I get in a very good relationship, we're very close, we are very happy. But then it's just not enough to to make that step, to make that commitment, like that public commitment.

• 25:36Esther Perel?

  Um hum.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Uh it would always be something that stops it. And I didn't know why, and I always felt like, no, that's not working, I'm gonna try again, I'm gonna try with somebody else.

• 25:50Speaker 00

  I spoke to my sisters and my mom and.

• 25:52Esther Perel?

  And how was your conversation with them?

• 25:55Speaker 00

  It was very painful, but I think they understood it, my my sisters especially, because they felt like my and mom's relationship were very.

• 26:04Esther Perel?

  Was the VIP club that they couldn't enter?

• 26:07Speaker 00

  Uh yeah.

• 26:09Esther Perel?

  Right, there are many VIP clubs in this system. So you and mom had a particular closeness that your sisters could not compete with and could not enter. And you wanted to decide on your own terms if you wanna be in a relationship that may not materialize. Or evolve into marriage without having to feel that you are actually repeating what your mother went through. So every time you left, you were basically saying, I'm not gonna experience what my mother went through.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  I never thought it like that when I did, but.

• 26:47Esther Perel?

  I know, I saw your face. But that's another, that's, it just adds another, another layer to this, it's that she too started out her story. With someone who wouldn't be public.

• 27:06Esther Perel?

  It's, you know, um it's not just that there was a secret inside of you, but. You were a secret in this man's life.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:20Esther Perel?

  With mom, you were not a secret, but there was a secret about who you are and where you come from and all of that. And do you ever discuss the possibility of what you call the public declaration separately from marriage as a symbolic act of acknowledgement, celebration?

• 27:43Speaker 00

  I I have brought it up not long ago. I think it's because I listened to many, many different ways of doing it, but that that's when he said, I don't think that will be enough for you.

• 27:53Esther Perel?

  Um, but that's maybe not for him to decide.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Um.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:01Esther Perel?

  I mean, that's a good answer to kind of say, I don't want to do something and it won't be good for you either. So we should do it, but we don't know. And and even if it doesn't take care of the entire wound, there's something about the symbolic nature of

• 28:17Speaker 00

  Um.

• 28:18Esther Perel?

  just having a few people

• 28:20Speaker 00

  Um.

• 28:21Esther Perel?

  at a table or not at a table, wherever you want for that matter, who recognize, acknowledge, celebrate, ritualize

• 28:31Speaker 00

  Um.

• 28:32Esther Perel?

  your relationship. If you celebrate your birthdays, you may celebrate an anniversary. You know, it may not

• 28:44Esther Perel?

  fill the entire gap of the original wound, but

• 28:47Speaker 00

  Um.

• 28:48Esther Perel?

  so what? Maybe that's not the purpose either. Purpose is to do small gestures that respond to the shame. Shame is about hiding. When we feel ashamed, we hide. We don't want to see people. We don't want them to see us. And we think there's something wrong with me, rather than something happened to me. When we make a public declaration, it's exactly the opposite. And you can do little gestures like that. They honor, they legitimize.

• 29:25Esther Perel?

  They make it known, they're not hiding. Maybe little things, maybe little things between the two of you too. It doesn't just have to involve the community. And because you grew up in a small town, you had the village, but basically you had the community at your doorstep. You know, and they came in even if you didn't want to. Here you would get to invite them and you would choose who you want to invite and so would he. And it would just, it wouldn't, it doesn't need to carry a name even.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  It it feels so strange, I don't know, it's um, it's like as if I am scared to do it. Scared to, it's not so much that he would not let me, it's more like that I somehow don't wanna do it.

• 30:15Esther Perel?

  Hmm, say more.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Um, that's when I was thinking about this desire thing and obsession, I feel sometimes that maybe it's me who doesn't want it. It's, it's that just thought that just came to my mind very, like in the past, maybe forty eight hours.

• 30:39Esther Perel?

  Me that doesn't want what?

• 30:42Speaker 00

  To declare it publicly.

• 30:45Esther Perel?

  Him, us, it?

• 30:49Speaker 00

  It, like the relationship that um

• 30:56Speaker 00

  it's, it's, I don't know.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  I thi- I have this feeling that deep inside is what he actually wants.

• 31:06Esther Perel?

  That he would like that, but not you?

• 31:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I know it sounds twisted, but I don't get it.

• 31:12Esther Perel?

  No, it's just the opposite of what you said before, you know. But it's a, you know, I like twisted. Um, so, tell me more, so what, what, what's if you had the mass, the voice that is the master of ceremony and that just creeps up right now. Where's the resistance?

• 31:34Speaker 00

  That it's just not me. It's just not what I do, it's not I never dreamt about, I never imagined it, I I never had.

• 31:49Speaker 00

  You know, even.

• 31:51Esther Perel?

  I never imagined what?

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Any of these rituals. I never imagined ever in the dress even, I never imagined myself.

• 32:02Esther Perel?

  Because I imagined what? How did I imagine myself?

• 32:07Speaker 00

  Just being okay with things as they are, being unique and different. And um.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  Kind of proving that I don't need this. They, they, they call me the daughter-in-law, so.

• 32:26Esther Perel?

  Um hum, um hum. So when your sister announces that she's getting married.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Um.

• 32:33Esther Perel?

  Your first response is loss?

• 32:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:37Esther Perel?

  Loss of a certain story, loss of a certain set of societal expectations that you won't be following upon. Loss of the sense of homogeneity between you and your sisters. And then it switches from the loss and the sadness and the pain into I'm different. Not just because I had a secret, but now I'm taking that difference and I'm turning it into how I choose to live. And what I wanna live by, and which one of the rituals of our society I actually want to adhere to. And so I turned the whole thing upside down.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  Um hum.

• 33:19Esther Perel?

  But that just happened forty-eight hours ago?

• 33:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, like. Very recently, I, I just don't even know why that thought came to me, um. Cause I was thinking, I was preparing to, what to say and, and all of a sudden it just kind of came that thought. It kind of came as a question, like, do you really want to do this? Or is it just what you told yourself for past ten years?

• 33:49Esther Perel?

  And then you added to it, but I think he wants it more than me.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I said it's about, he doesn't believe in institution, but he is writing the wedding speeches for his friends, you know, as if it was his full-time job. And he loves attending all these ceremonies and all these um.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  It just seems a bit odd to me that somebody who doesn't believe in institution participates in it so wholeheartedly.

• 34:20Esther Perel?

  Everyone their contradictions.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:23Esther Perel?

  So when he says to you, this won't be enough, what's he really addressing? Because now you've conveyed, I say I want something that may not really be the thing I want. But I want something. So what is the it and the something that is not being properly named? That he says, no ceremony will take care of it.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 34:50Esther Perel?

  And you both seem to never name this it.

• 34:55Esther Perel?

  Or at least I have not, I'm not sure I capture. But you seem to each know something that lies underneath.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  It's not so much my worth, but um it's like a prize. It's like the final jewel, you know, in this whole thing. It's like a final piece of the puzzle. So I have this whole thing that works for me, but I'm missing that one little puzzle piece. Maybe I thought that was that commitment, that that ritual, that ceremony would kind of um put that piece in, but I just don't, now I say it and I don't think that it would.

• 35:43Esther Perel?

  Can I suggest a thought for you?

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Um.

• 35:46Esther Perel?

  Just came up for me and you tell me if that adds some clarity. When you talk like that, I want to have a ceremony, I want to get married, I want

• 36:01Speaker 00

  Um.

• 36:01Esther Perel?

  to have a celebration of that because I think it would officialize me, it would make a declaration and all of that.

• 36:10Esther Perel?

  On some level, there is, you don't mention him. It's like he's being recruited for a part, but it's not about him. And I'm wondering if part of him saying, I don't want to do this. This will not add it. This won't fix it. It's because you're asking him to do something that isn't really his role. In a way, you're asking him to do something that your parents haven't done. You're asking him to legitimize, to officialize.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  And he's not the first person I asked that as well.

• 36:48Esther Perel?

  But he's the one where you decided not to go.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 36:53Esther Perel?

  So there's a part of you that knows that there's certain things that you want from him,

• 37:01Esther Perel?

  but it's not about him.

• 37:04Esther Perel?

  And it's actually not about marriage either.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  No, I just don't know what I want. What is it really that I want?

• 37:17Speaker 00

  We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free,

• 37:24Speaker 06

  click the try free button to subscribe to Astera's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

• 37:34Speaker 06

  Support for today's episode comes from Delta, official airline of the National Women's Soccer League. Traveling is basically magic. It creates opportunities. It fosters understanding. It expands horizons. It connects people and communities to each other and to their own potential. Those are the values that drive Delta. With up to 5,500 daily Delta and Delta Connection flights to more than 300 destinations on six continents, Delta is committed to helping you explore your world. Whatever gives you the travel bug, Delta is here to help you get there. Visit delta.com for more info. Delta, wherever the journey takes you.

• 38:21Speaker 05

  When it's the end of the day and you're settled into the couch looking for your evening watch? You're not looking for homework the movie. You're looking for comfort, excitement, or something in between. Whether you're craving something familiar or in the mood to discover something new, Amazon Prime has what you need, from screen to doorstep. Because it's not just about genres or endless content. It's about finding the thing that matches how you're feeling, whatever the mood. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

• 38:55Speaker 06

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 39:25Esther Perel?

  If you turn to your parents now, not to your boyfriend, but to your parents, and you talked with them about public declaration,

• 39:37Esther Perel?

  turning shame into pride, acceptance,

• 39:43Esther Perel?

  acceptance that doesn't sit on a secret, and primarily

• 39:49Esther Perel?

  releasing the secret so that you don't have to hold it in order to protect them.

• 39:55Esther Perel?

  That's the release.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  They told it, but it was too late. They said it.

• 40:03Esther Perel?

  No, they just said one thing. What was the conflict you had with your dad at 18 that led him to let the cat out of the hat, as they say?

• 40:13Speaker 00

  I discovered his affair and told my mom about it.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  He called me. He was very... Obviously, he thought that that was it, that was the end. And he was angry. And he just wanted to hurt me, I think, at that time. I was in university back home. I only went there for a very short time

• 40:40Speaker 00

  before I moved away. And...

• 40:44Esther Perel?

  So he was saying you want to hurt me?

• 40:48Esther Perel?

  By making me public to your mom.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Um.

• 40:52Esther Perel?

  Let me tell you.

• 40:53Speaker 00

  Um hum.

• 40:55Esther Perel?

  And I know what I can use to hurt you.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  Um, but he couldn't cause I kind of interrupted.

• 41:00Esther Perel?

  But that wasn't he told me, that wasn't him telling you.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  No.

• 41:05Esther Perel?

  That was him.

• 41:08Esther Perel?

  Basically exercising revenge. You think you have one up on me, let me tell you one on you. It's a different game.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Um.

• 41:17Esther Perel?

  And your mom, you still haven't had a conversation with her about it.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  I had it in terms of, but when I had five years ago started to go through this, I called and cried and said, you know, this is really deeply hurt me.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  Um, so I did say everything uh then, what I felt and I said.

• 41:37Esther Perel?

  And was she able to hear you?

• 41:40Speaker 00

  Um, not, not fully. I don't think we had another conflict. Couple of years ago where I. She took it so badly that she said, you know, cause I, I said, I'm. I'm still, eh, she still wanted to have the same physical kind of connection, you know, where we were very close and I, I, I needed space. And she took it very badly. She took it very hurtfully. Uh, she was hysterical and.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  I, after she calmed down and I calmed her down, I s- I said to her that it's. It's not that I don't love her, it's that uh it's suffocating me and that's um. That I need to disconnect from her and I need my sisters to step up. Into this relationship, so I am not the one who is always.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  Looking after her emotional um being and, you know, all these. Conflicts with my dad that she had, she used to share with me and I said, no, not anymore. I don't wanna hear anything anymore. And actually their relationship be proved now because I think I stepped down, I stepped down, I stepped away, I move, um. My, my sister stepped up, they started to feel a bit more out of my shadow. Um.

• 43:05Esther Perel?

  So you did a lot.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did a lot for the family.

• 43:09Esther Perel?

  Family restructuring, yes, beautiful.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  Um, but she still struggles to talk to, talk about it, but she's trying. She wrote me a lot of letters to say how uh she doesn't know what comes over her and I understand because I know how these wounds work. She's been very gentle and soft, you know, in in our conversations, but also I feel like she downplays the the experiences of my sisters, which is not fair because you know, I want to celebrate with them, you know, they they are beautiful experiences for them and important and I want them to celebrate it, but I feel like I'm just always in the way with all this.

• 43:56Speaker 00

  With my stuff, especially with the trio, the triangle of me, my mom and my dad and the invisible man somehow. It's four of us there and then they are on the sidelines.

• 44:10Esther Perel?

  Tell me if I hear this, right? I look at my parents' marriage. And it is official. And it is sanctified by the church and it is legal by the state. And yet, it is filled with secrets.

• 44:35Esther Perel?

  The my secret of my origin, but also my father's affair and who knows what else.

• 44:42Esther Perel?

  I look at me and my boyfriend or my partner. And we are not sanctified, nor legal, nor recognized by any public institution. But we don't have secrets. We grow, we are open, we're there for each other. And here I am facing the opportunity, but also the falsity of what the official declaration presents and means versus what happens in the actual experience of the relationship, even if the titles are not there. Did I hear it accurately?

• 45:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yes. So I always wanted a an opposite of the relationship. That's what I always was going for.

• 45:33Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:34Speaker 00

  Um.

• 45:35Esther Perel?

  I want truth, authenticity, trust, honesty, safety, discovery, exploration, growth. All these beautiful juicy things in a relationship. And I want that to be declared.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 45:55Esther Perel?

  I can find ways to create rituals and celebrations and opportunities to bring in the community, whoever I invite. It's not sure that I want all the titles. When in fact, it feels that behind that, there's a web of secrets. And unacknowledged truths.

• 46:22Esther Perel?

  And I started this process five years ago.

• 46:26Esther Perel?

  And my sister's announcement of her marriage

• 46:32Esther Perel?

  led me to the next step in this process.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I feel like it's a big step, what happened over these past forty eight hours.

• 46:44Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  Um.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Something shifted, I think more than it shifted then.

• 46:53Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  Um.

• 46:58Esther Perel?

  How's this?

• 47:01Speaker 00

  It's it's it's it's landing. It's um it's landing better. But I I hope I'm not just trying to soothe myself. It's, you know, like, cause I'm such a storyteller, like, I'm just hoping that I'm not just doing it.

• 47:19Esther Perel?

  Cause it sounds good.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  It sounds better, yeah, um. So that's what I think I'm I I want to start to see if if this thought is taking because it's quite fresh.

• 47:31Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. This is a story, but so is the other version. And you can decide which story you want to live by. It's not like there is one true story and the other is not, at least not here.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, and could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Sol.

• 49:01Speaker 05

  Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at Odoo.com/vox. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash vox.

• 49:40Speaker 06

  Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalised products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.