557 - Be Different Later

On today’s episode, Karen covers the murder of Hilda Roche and Georgia tells the story of the Peanut Corporation of America scandal. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here:www.exactlyrightstore.com https://www.exactlyrightstore.com. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is Exactly Right.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.

• 0:10Karen Kilgariff?

  When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.

• 0:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.

• 0:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.

• 0:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 0:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye.

• 0:41Speaker 03

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• 1:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello. And welcome.

• 1:30Georgia Hardstark?

  To my favorite murder.

• 1:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hartstark.

• 1:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:34Karen Kilgariff?

  We're at home.

• 1:37Georgia Hardstark?

  We are at home. I'm legit, am I? I don't know if I call them pajamas. Are they pajamas when they're sweatpants?

• 1:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Are they pajamas when they're all day long?

• 1:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 1:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, Vin's kind of in my pajamas, and I'm like, mm. I'm kind of in my indoor clothes, which isn't, I don't sleep.

• 1:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Could you go to the bank in what you're wearing right now?

• 1:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, that's a good question.

• 1:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that the dividing line?

• 2:00Georgia Hardstark?

  But I'd look a little, someone wouldn't be wrong to think that I was on my way to rehab. Getting some money out, getting some money out before I go to rehab.

• 2:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like a speakeasy in the back of the bank, but it's a rehab.

• 2:12Georgia Hardstark?

  What's the code word to get in?

• 2:14Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what that makes me think of is the time I was sitting in the, like, in front of a grocery store at night. This was so long ago, but a girl walked up to one of those Redbox machines, and she had the most insane, like, fleece pajama bottoms with, like, I think they were probably Powerpuff Girls or something.

• 2:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And this was pre-COVID, and I remember being like, ooh, what are you doing? And then, like, now.

• 2:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone got broke up with recently.

• 2:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah, a lot of judgment, a lot of, like, outfits, outfits. And now it's like, absolutely, wear that to work.

• 2:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 2:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Do your thing.

• 2:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, what do you wear when you don't leave the house that often?

• 2:51Georgia Hardstark?

  God, I need to leave the house more often.

• 2:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's why, and maybe you want to join me, that's why I do Scandi. My style is Scandi style.

• 3:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, like Scandinavian? What is that?

• 3:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, Scandinavian. So it's like, big sweaters, big pants, clogs.

• 3:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's like your style, so that when you're at home, it's like, that's just what she wears. I thought you were gonna go, like, scandalous and be like, I wear lingerie around my house.

• 3:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I tube top it around the house, nonstop.

• 3:21Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, you're right. And then, because also I need an escape, because my clothes are like, you know, when they're cute, they're like made up, and everything is cinched and this and that, and has accessories.

• 3:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Tight, yeah.

• 3:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So like, I need a break from that when I'm not wearing them. I shouldn't need a break from my everyday clothes anymore. All right.

• 3:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, I think you're growing and changing in the way that you're like, do I need to be outfit-forward at all times?

• 3:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 3:44Karen Kilgariff?

  No. You don't owe anybody an outfit.

• 3:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:47Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll gift them an outfit.

• 3:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I owe nine-year-old Georgia, who got hand-me-downs and wore the same, and got teased for wearing the same thing every week, you know? I owe her a new top for the Netflix podcast that we do every week.

• 4:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I hear you.

• 4:04Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 4:04Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, I can now prove that I can get new shirts.

• 4:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Watch, you've never seen this one before, and you'll never fucking see it again.

• 4:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Check this one out, Maureen from Orange County, or whoever we're talking to. Motherfucker. And I think I'm doing the equal opposite of the full flop of just wear a black shirt all the time. They can't say shit to you if you just wear the same thing all the time.

• 4:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, starting tomorrow, it's on.

• 4:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we're gonna be different later.

• 4:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, watch out, world.

• 4:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you've been warned.

• 4:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you have anything? What do you got?

• 4:38Karen Kilgariff?

  We went on a lovely vacation that I was very grateful to have. And when I came back from that vacation, I literally slept for about six days in a row. It started to get kind of like, do I have one of those weird sleeping sicknesses or something? Because I could not stop sleeping. It was wild.

• 4:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so joyful, though, sleeping.

• 4:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it is.

• 4:59Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 5:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially when you have a hard time doing it.

• 5:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there's something so special about, oh, I fell asleep. It's like, yay, I won.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good for you.

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good for you, and it never happens when it's supposed to.

• 5:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't. And I'm also not used to daytime napping.

• 5:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 5:18Karen Kilgariff?

  In fact, I think in our house, kind of subtextually, it was banned.

• 5:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 5:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, you're laying down during the day with.

• 5:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It's totally a childhood thing of, was it okay or was it not okay? Like, it was totally fine in my house and celebrated. It's so, it's so that. So if it wasn't.

• 5:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's healthy. Yeah, no, it was bad. You had, people would just come by and hit your foot and just be like, get a job. But, point being, coming home, I would be falling asleep at four o'clock in the afternoon and sleeping hard, and then I would wake up at six. And because it was like dusk, I would think it was dawn, and that I had slept through the day. And I would get, I did this two times. I got up and made coffee, two times at like 6:00 PM.

• 5:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I was thinking, if you was a little kid, and I'm like, you got up and made coffee? Cool.

• 6:03Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no. This just happened. This is how I, this is how I celebrated my vacation.

• 6:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, you woke up and were like, well, it's the morning time.

• 6:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I blew through that whole day. I guess I need to get jacked up on caffeine, and then it'd be like, oh, shit, I should have looked at my phone.

• 6:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Daisy and Frank are like, what the fuck are you doing?

• 6:22Karen Kilgariff?

  What are we doing? Blossom, by the way, blossom.

• 6:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit, shit. Oh, my God.

• 6:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's Daisy? Who's Daisy? Whose dog is Daisy?

• 6:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Blossom Daisy, it's, they're similar.

• 6:33Karen Kilgariff?

  True, true.

• 6:33Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, should we get into it?

• 6:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do it.

• 6:35Georgia Hardstark?

  We have a podcast network called Exactly Right Media. Here's highlights.

• 6:39Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, all kinds of podcasts on there. And this week, over on Buried Bones, Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holes kick off a two-part investigation into the Hillside Stranglers, as we all know, the serial-killing duo who terrorized Los Angeles in the late 1970s. I cannot wait to hear them break down and discuss. I mean, I genuinely can't wait. This is like, this is, what do they call it, appointment TV? But this is like appointment podcasting for me.

• 7:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely. And then, over on Brief Recession, Michael and Melissa talk about the midterm elections, and they discuss the surge in partnerships between ICE and local police.

• 7:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Dark.

• 7:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:20Karen Kilgariff?

  God is watching you. I've never been more religious. Over on Ghosted, Roz is joined by the iconic Stephanie Beatriz. She's a friend of MFM. She's from Brooklyn Nine-Nine and the amazing movie Encanto. If you haven't seen Encanto, do yourself a favor. It's so beautiful. And she's the star. She can sing like hell.

• 7:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, it's incredible.

• 7:42Karen Kilgariff?

  On Ghosted, they get into ghostly visitations, a very haunted dorm room, and a cursed rendezvous.

• 7:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, in case you missed it, Karen was a guest on The Knife last month. Woo-hoo.

• 7:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 7:53Georgia Hardstark?

  She sat down with Hannah and Pasha to reflect on the tragedy she witnessed at South by Southwest in 2014, and what it means to carry the memory of something so devastating.

• 8:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what it means? It means that you somehow, in the strangest way in the world, make a friend at a Halloween party.

• 8:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Turn it into a podcast.

• 8:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That's our, what is that called, a prequel or a like?

• 8:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the season before the main season.

• 8:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 8:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that's the thing that got us to actually meet each other.

• 8:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 8:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, here's some really exciting news over in the merch corner. Heads up, goths and rebellious librarians, we've got a brand-new Murderino design. It's the classic cursive text, but it's black-on-black fabric.

• 8:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah. That's so fucking punk rock. I love it so much.

• 8:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good. It's available as a hat.

• 8:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, our fan favorite Panther design by Daphne Sabine is available once again as a zip-up hoodie and a crew neck.

• 8:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, for our MFM animated stands, we have, do people still use that word? We have new ornaments for the holidays. Choose from a peachy ornament or from the MFM animated lineup. Plus, we've got new Mothman and Skeleton Key purse charms, all designed by our own Nick Terry.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah. I love that we're just leaning on that MFM animated, because it's just so beautiful. And now we can add it to Christmas?

• 9:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Come on.

• 9:16Karen Kilgariff?

  The lineup art is truly some of my favorites.

• 9:18Georgia Hardstark?

  So head to ExactlyRightStore.com to shop the whole collection.

• 9:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, Karen, you're first. I'm gonna put my pajama ass into a comfy position.

• 9:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It'd be great if you would change into formal clothes for this, since you're already in pajamas.

• 9:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Let me go put on my gown and jewels.

• 9:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. I appreciate it. Okay, my story today starts the morning of Friday, April 2nd, 1982, in the DC suburb of Montclair, Virginia. That's about 30 miles southwest of Washington DC. It's around 10 o'clock in the morning, and a woman walking her dog through a local subdivision takes a short trail into the woods behind nearby elementary school. And on that path, she comes upon what we know to be the worst-case scenario. She finds the dead body of a woman. She's somewhere between 30 and 40 years old. She's five foot two with reddish brown hair. She's nude, and her hands are bound behind her back. The woman who's walking her dog immediately calls the police.

• 10:23Karen Kilgariff?

  But this homicide investigation will be slow and frustrating. The police wait for the call from a loved one reporting her missing, but they don't get that call. And when every possible lead results in a dead end, investigators are forced to think outside the box, trying new things like forensic hypnosis, to get a break. But in the end, it will be the TV show Unsolved Mysteries that breaks this case, finally bringing justice where it's needed. This is the story of the murder of Hilda Roche.

• 10:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 10:57Karen Kilgariff?

  So, the main sources used are, of course, the 1991 episode of Unsolved Mysteries, which now sounds like I'm saying 1941.

• 11:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, yeah.

• 11:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so crazy.

• 11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  God.

• 11:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And then articles from the Potomac News and the Washington Post archives. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So it's April 2nd, 1982, and a Jane Doe body is found in the woods in Montclair. In those woods behind a grammar school, crime scene investigators get to work. They notice that the victim's hands are tied behind her back with a pair of pantyhose. And then they notice signs of sexual assaults. They see that her cause of death is one execution-style gunshot to the head. Investigators determine that she was killed sometime after midnight, likely in this exact spot. What they can't figure out, though, is who this woman is.

• 11:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Because of course, she doesn't have any identification on her. But when they run her fingerprints through the FBI database, there's no match, because it's 1982, and she doesn't have a criminal record.

• 12:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 12:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Aside from her white and blue tree-torn tennis shoes, the police really don't have anything, any identifying things like clothing, jewelry, tattoos, that could help the public identify her. Throughout the day, investigators keep close tabs on any missing person reports that might be coming in, but no luck there. And since we all know that the first 48 hours of a murder investigation are make or break, they send nine detectives out to canvass the area around where the body was found. They interview dozens of people who live near the crime scene. And they do learn that a few residents heard a loud noise in the overnight hours,

• 12:45Karen Kilgariff?

  which would be very early Friday morning, presumably the gunshot that killed this Jane Doe. And that, when they say they heard it, aligns with the assumed time of the victim's death. They also learn that the elementary school was hosting an adult jazzercise class that night, the night before on Thursday. So they track down every person that was in this class, but no one's unaccounted for. And none of the people who were in the class have useful information about who that woman, the dead woman, could be. But by the weekend, there's coverage about this Jane Doe murder on the local news and in area newspapers. And finally, calls start coming in.

• 13:28Karen Kilgariff?

  One tip is from Lake Ridge, Virginia. It's another DC suburb 10 miles north of Montclair. And the callers are worried about a neighbor of theirs, a 43-year-old woman named Hilda Roche. They describe her as a friendly and outgoing woman who they're used to seeing around the neighborhood. It turns out, Hilda is an active member of her neighborhood association. She also enjoys going out to dinner, going to see live theater. She's described as a joyful person. And she had recently separated from her husband, and for a time, she lived with a roommate. But then, just a few months earlier, in January of 1982, her roommate died suddenly from a brain aneurysm.

• 14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Which was, yeah, just a shocking, out-of-the-blue thing. So now, Hilda lives by herself in her townhome. So her neighbors report they haven't seen her since Thursday, April 1st, and that no one has been able to reach her. They're particularly troubled because Hilda's dog was found outside and unattended. Yeah, horrible feeling. When they went to check her front door, they discovered that it was unlocked. So around the same time that they're talking to these neighbors, Hilda's coworkers also reach out to the police. Like many people that live in that part of the country, Hilda's a government employee. She works for military intelligence at Arlington Hall in Arlington, Virginia,

• 14:52Karen Kilgariff?

  which is known for hosting and training cryptographers and code breakers during World War II. And Hilda had been a no-show at work for a couple of days, and no one at work could get in touch with her. And all of that was so out of character for Hilda that they finally called the police. So on Monday, April 5th, 1982, four days after the Jane Doe body is found, investigators knock on the door of Hilda Rocher's townhome. No one answers, so they enter through that unlocked door, and they start to look around. And a detective named Donald Cahill describes the scene as, quote, "indicative of a struggle." The upstairs bedroom in particular is in disarray. Women's clothes are strewn around the room.

• 15:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Many of them are damaged, like they were ripped from a body. There's a torn pair of underwear, a bra with a broken clasp, a blouse that's missing nine buttons. And all of those items do end up belonging to Hilda. There's also a roll of tape sitting near the bedside, and investigators believe that this was used to tie someone to the bed. Downstairs in the living area, investigators find the blouse's missing buttons. And that makes them think that that's where the struggle began, with Hilda's shirt being torn off. They also find her wallet and her work ID with her fingerprint on it. And investigators are now able to confirm that Hilda Roche is the Montclair Jane Doe.

• 16:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 16:21Karen Kilgariff?

  But because there's no evidence that the home was broken into, investigators suspect that Hilda might have been killed by someone she knew, and maybe even someone she invited inside. So they take a closer look at her estranged husband, of course, as they always do. But by all accounts, the two seem to have broken up and moved on with their lives. They can find no evidence that connects her ex to this murder. And then they get a very promising tip. Investigators discover that on the evening of March 26th, 1982, which was a week before her death, she went to a bar and restaurant called The Rafters in Alexandria, Virginia, which is about a half an hour from her home. And there, she met a man.

• 17:06Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's the early 80s, and apparently Rafters is like a popular, kind of slightly upscale chain for food and drinks in Alexandria, kind of like...

• 17:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Applebee's? Which one's the fancy?

• 17:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Black Angus is what I was gonna say, but that's not even fancy anymore, is it?

• 17:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. I don't know. One of those.

• 17:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It seemed fancy from the freeway, to me.

• 17:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:30Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's also the 80s, and so like, on that episode of Unsolved Mysteries, they do reference this as a singles bar, The Rafters. But Maren, looking into it, was like, "I'm not seeing anybody else calling it that." So like, but it's that idea. It's like, she basically went there, she ordered a drink at the bar, sat down, and she would later tell her friends that a man took the seat next to her, and they start chatting.

• 17:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:57Karen Kilgariff?

  But for some reason, that no one will ever know, she doesn't tell her friends the man's name. She only tells them that he introduces himself as a government consultant, and they hit it off. So Hilda tells her friends, she and this man grab a table, and they eat dinner together. And then they walk over to the man's place at the Oakwood Apartments, which is a huge complex basically across the street from The Rafters. You can see it from The Rafters. And they go over there, and they keep the night going. So by the time Hilda's telling her friends about this, she's clearly excited. And one of her friends, who will later appear on Unsolved Mysteries, says that she thought this man sounded too good to be true.

• 18:41Karen Kilgariff?

  She says, quote, "Hilda had said the guy was single, he was attractive, he had a lot of money, and she was impressed that he was driving this beautiful car. I started to tell her, 'Don't believe everything this guy is telling you. The car's probably rented. Anybody can make up a big story. You don't know anything about him. Watch out.'"

• 19:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 19:01Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. Yeah. But it's like, such a heartbreaking thing. This is the risk of vulnerability of relationships. It's like, this is what women have to deal with.

• 19:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You have to be constantly on guard, that everything they say could be a complete lie, and they could be dangerous, like, on top of it all.

• 19:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And this, I think, only recent kind of discovery and discussion that women are having with each other about what actual danger looks like, and how charming sociopaths can be, you know, how that's part of the plan. It's, you know, it's tough. It feels like 1982 is like, that was still almost like a hangover of like, the singles bar, Fern Bar 70s, you know?

• 19:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for sure. The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 19:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 19:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 20:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 20:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 20:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 20:54Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 20:56Karen Kilgariff?

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• 21:46Georgia Hardstark?

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• 21:49Karen Kilgariff?

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• 21:55Karen Kilgariff?

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• 22:06Georgia Hardstark?

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• 22:14Karen Kilgariff?

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• 22:38Georgia Hardstark?

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• 22:39Karen Kilgariff?

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• 22:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Now available in Canada and the UK, too.

• 22:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was my favorite murder. It's the best way to support the show.

• 22:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. So identifying this man becomes the focus of the murder investigation. The police talk to the people who were at the rafters that night. They get this man's physical description. It's very vague. He's a white man with brown hair and brown eyes. He's around 40 years old. He's about 5'7". It's like as general as it could be.

• 23:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  But they do use it to investigate their most compelling clue, which is they know this man has an apartment at the Oakwoods

• 23:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 23:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Complex across the street. But here's the thing, this complex has 1,400 units in it.

• 23:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit. Yeah.

• 23:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gigantic. I mean, I can't comprehend it. It's so gigantic.

• 23:41Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it makes sense with like government workers where it's just like, we need a place to temporarily put a lot of people.

• 23:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly. That is kind of what it was. So detectives end up poring over as many lease agreements, like lease agreements dating back three years.

• 23:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Hoping to find a tenant that is a man, like a white man, all those things, the description. But of course, it's a huge complex and it is a revolving door of government employees. So it's like quick, you know, contract employees that are in and out. So it's now months into the investigation when police finally get the big break they need. They find out that Hilda lost her wallet at the rafters the night that she met this mystery man. So it turns out that the man that she left with, he called the rafters and insisted that he be called if her wallet is found.

• 24:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 24:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So then he leaves his phone number with the staff. And it sounds really creepy and it's very easy to kind of write a story about what that meant.

• 24:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Karen Kilgariff?

  He does live across the street and Hilda is far away and she's excited to see him again. So it could have made sense to be like, oh, we'll meet again and you can bring my wallet.

• 24:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I can grab it. It's close by, kind of a thing.

• 25:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 25:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 25:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So Hilda's wallet is found at the restaurant and a manager gives the man a call. So he stops by that same week and picks it up. So when the detectives learn about this, they go back to the rafters, they find that manager to get the man's contact information, but like hoping it's filed away somewhere.

• 25:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:23Karen Kilgariff?

  But of course, she doesn't have it anymore. So basically, as an investigative hail mary, they ask the manager if she'll be willing to be put under hypnosis in the hope that they could get something

• 25:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 25:36Karen Kilgariff?

  From anything to point to this man's identity. And she agrees. But by the time she's placed under hypnosis, it's been three months since she called the man about Hilda's wallet. So it definitely seems like a long shot and it seems just weird and out of the box.

• 25:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:53Karen Kilgariff?

  But incredibly, when she's hypnotized, this manager recites a complete phone number.

• 25:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 25:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 26:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. It's crazy. Now, investigators don't immediately celebrate because the hypnotist warned them.

• 26:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, these numbers could be off in some way. Some could be reversed or misremembered, like it could be partial. But while this is happening, the other investigators are whittling down those lease agreements. And Detective Cahill says on his episode of Unsolved Mysteries, he says, quote, "We went through probably 25,000 to 30,000 files. And out of that, we came up with 32 possible names that fit the profile of the man," end quote.

• 26:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so much work for also not even knowing if he is a suspect because it was a week before, right?

• 26:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. It's a part of like police work and detective work where you understand the burnout and the, when people kind of like half-ass things or they don't want to write up a report or a file or whatever, because they have to do all of that and work so hard. And yeah, sometimes for no reason.

• 27:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's like, why can't we get AI to do something? Why does AI have to be an artist all the time? Anyway, we'll talk about AI on a different show.

• 27:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I hope so.

• 27:11Karen Kilgariff?

  You're looking forward to that conversation.

• 27:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, always.

• 27:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So they do have these 32 possible names. And on this shortlist, they find a phone number that is an almost perfect match to the one recited by the hypnotized restaurant manager.

• 27:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 27:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And that phone number belongs to a 38-year-old man named Gregory Richard Barker, who it turns out moved out of the Oakwood Apartments and left town shortly after Hilda's murder.

• 27:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 27:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So now detectives are on it and they are looking to interview him, but they can't find him. He leaves behind a forwarding address for a new place in Las Vegas. But when they call and talk to people at that address, he no longer is affiliated or seems to be affiliated with it. So police start to dig into this man's background. There's no immediate red flags. He's a decorated Vietnam War veteran. He completed two tours, the second one being in military intelligence, which is something he and Hilda could have bonded over because that's where she worked now. Barker left the army in 1975, seven

• 28:19Karen Kilgariff?

  years before this murder took place, and he left it in good standing. But when investigators track down Barker's car, that fancy one that impressed Hilda so much the night they met, they find a shoe print in the trunk that is a perfect match for those white tree-torn sneakers that she was wearing at the time of her death.

• 28:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 28:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So it's a direct link and it also suggests she may have been in the trunk alive.

• 28:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Totally.

• 28:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So two and a half years after Hilda Roche's body is found in September of 1984, Greg Barker is arrested. But he's not arrested for Hilda's murder. He's actually arrested for three bank robberies in Las Vegas. One in December of 83, one in January of 84, and a third in March of 84. But these aren't like major heists. He only made $2,100.

• 29:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, on three bank robberies.

• 29:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Three bank robberies in the 80s. Do you want to know how much it is in today's money?

• 29:20Georgia Hardstark?

  $2,100 in the 80s today is, um...

• 29:25Georgia Hardstark?

  10,000? No, 8,000.

• 29:27Karen Kilgariff?

  6,700. It's like, it's, it's nothing. And in the robberies, he didn't use a weapon. So one could maybe assume that he was just desperate and was like trying to get money, like truly on the run.

• 29:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:43Karen Kilgariff?

  But because he didn't use a weapon, he is able to post bond and he is released before his trial. And also because of bad communication between different police jurisdictions, the Las Vegas authorities have no idea Greg Barker is wanted for murder in Virginia. By the time detectives who are working Hilda's case find out about his arrest in Vegas, he's gone again. So now it's April of 1991. It's nine years after Hilda's murder. And the TV show Unsolved Mysteries runs a segment on her case. The detectives working the case think it's a great way to get the word out about Greg Barker nationwide. He's out there running around and it works.

• 30:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And I think we should say that, like, to the young people listening to this podcast, everyone watched that show and like, everyone watched it live. We were obsessed with that show.

• 30:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It was such a good idea.

• 30:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it was like, can you help us find? I always think about the guy, and you covered it, that cold case where it was like the boy that like, he got out of his car and was like out in the middle of nowhere in the Midwest.

• 30:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's talking to his parents on the phone. I remember watching that one and just being like, we've got to find him.

• 30:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 31:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It activated the audience in this amazing way.

• 31:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, to pay attention to their surroundings more, I think, right?

• 31:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And that like, they're a part of, like, they could actually help something.

• 31:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:14Karen Kilgariff?

  In like, these cases where it's like, well, if the police just say it's cold and then they start on the next murder because they're, they never stop coming.

• 31:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:22Karen Kilgariff?

  What, what do we do with these cold cases?

• 31:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And Robert Stack, just what a, you really wanted to help that man.

• 31:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You did.

• 31:30Karen Kilgariff?

  He was so sincere and so like, come on, he was just in it. And it worked because a 46-year-old maintenance worker named Becky Granis is watching the show that night in Arizona when a familiar face flashes across the screen. It's presented as a photo of Gregory Barker, but she says, quote, "I was sitting in my living room saying, I know that man," end quote.

• 31:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone's dream who watched that show.

• 31:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially every 12-year-old's dream that watched that show.

• 31:58Georgia Hardstark?

  That's my, what, that's my boss.

• 32:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's my horrible teacher. So Becky thinks that this man looks exactly like a telemarketer who works in the office complex where she works. And that guy goes by the name Alex Graham. She's so smart, because I think I would have just called immediately and just been like freaked out. She goes to work the next morning and gets a look at Alex Graham to make sure.

• 32:23Georgia Hardstark?

  How spooky.

• 32:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? But like, also smart, where it's like, this is the guy. So she's convinced it's the same guy from the episode, so she calls police. And because Greg Barker is also a federal fugitive from the robbery charges, the FBI swoops in and arrests him less than 24 hours after that episode of Unsolved Mysteries airs. Greg Barker is then extradited to Nevada and prosecuted for those three robberies first. He's given 20 years in prison and then he's brought to Virginia to be tried for the abduction and murder of Hilda Roche. Greg Barker pleads guilty, so there's no trial.

• 33:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Really? Wow.

• 33:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. He just immediately pleads, he's given 110-year sentence to be served after his federal sentence is over.

• 33:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 33:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And while we don't have direct testimony from him, Detective Cahill says on Unsolved Mysteries that he believes that Barker went to Hilda's house that night under the guise of returning her wallet. And then after attacking her in the living room, he took her upstairs and sexually assaulted her in her bedroom, then put her in the trunk of his car, drove and found a secluded place 10 miles away, led her into the woods and shot her in the head.

• 33:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So awful.

• 33:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So when he's arrested in Arizona, Barker reportedly tries to claim that he was a government agent entangled in some sort of military conspiracy. And actually, on that episode of Unsolved Mysteries, Detective Cahill says Barker was known to have an unhealthy obsession with spy novels and believed himself to be a, quote, "master spy."

• 34:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oof.

• 34:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Greg Barker dies in prison in 2013. As of now, Hilda Roche is the only victim that we know of that he has. And a lot of people talk about if he had this unhealthy obsession with spy novels, then, you know, he was mentally ill, mentally unwell, and whether his motive was straightforward and opportunistic and he was aware of what he was doing, or he was in a psychological state where he didn't. The fact is that he sexually assaulted and then murdered a woman who thought that she could trust him. Police believe Greg Barker's name could come up in other unsolved cases in the future. Detective Cahill actually says on that episode of Unsolved Mysteries, quote, "From doing

• 34:53Karen Kilgariff?

  a background investigation on Mr. Barker, we don't believe this was his only murder that he committed. We don't believe this is the last murder he committed. We believe that he could be responsible for numerous murders.

• 35:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 35:07Karen Kilgariff?

  We feel that possibly he could even be a serial murderer. We're very sure of the fact that he is smart and he's very dangerous."

• 35:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 35:16Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. And that's the story of the murder of Hilda Roche.

• 35:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, wow. Great job.

• 35:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 35:22Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so troubling that the little piece of information that you gave earlier on, that they found her wallet at her house, I hadn't even connected. It's like, that's how you know they had seen each other again?

• 35:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. But I mean, we know this too, and I'm sure that's why people didn't really, he didn't even really try to, he didn't try to claim insanity or anything. It's like, it's so clearly planned. It was so clearly planned from probably when he sat down next to her.

• 35:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the darkest part.

• 35:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for sure. God, ugh. DNA, let's get some fucking cases solved with this asshole. Well, great job.

• 35:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 36:02Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 36:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 36:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 36:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 36:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind, that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 36:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 37:05Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 37:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 37:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Holiday shopping gets a lot easier when you can find something for everyone.

• 37:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially when everyone includes yourself.

• 37:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Find thoughtful, high-quality gifts for everyone on your list at Quince.

• 37:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Quince makes beautiful everyday essentials with high-quality materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton and premium stretch denim. They're the kind of things you love to give as a gift or get yourself.

• 37:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50 and they also have beautiful 14-karat gold earrings and bracelets that make great gifts.

• 37:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I was so excited when I got home and I got to break out my gray Quince cashmere sweater that I wear constantly around the house. We've been waiting for even the slightest temperature drop so that we could get into sweater weather and finally it's here. And I celebrated with my beautiful Quince cashmere sweater that I think I got the second year we started doing ads for them.

• 38:01Georgia Hardstark?

  They laugh.

• 38:02Karen Kilgariff?

  They do.

• 38:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season.

• 38:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 38:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

• 38:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Now available in Canada and the UK too.

• 38:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was my favorite murder. It's the best way to support the show.

• 38:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.

• 38:28Georgia Hardstark?

  So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.

• 38:31Karen Kilgariff?

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• 38:36Georgia Hardstark?

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• 38:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.

• 38:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having. Sorry, everyone, when it's like sunny and gorgeous year round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie lay in the sun and the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 39:24Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit article.com/murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 39:29Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 39:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 39:37Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Well, I have a very different style of story, as we like to do.

• 39:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 39:42Georgia Hardstark?

  However, the story does involve the death of innocent people at the hands of people who are criminally responsible. It's just in a different way. We're starting in the fall of 2008 in Dayton, Ohio. And Minnie Borden is an 82-year-old woman, originally from Alabama, who has been in great health, other than suffering from rheumatoid arthritis, which has been an issue most of her life, not just in her older age. In fact, at 82 years old, she still lives by herself, and she's fiercely independent. But then, in November, Minnie starts to have severe stomach pains and GI issues. Her appetite plummets, so most days she's eating only her favorite snack,

• 40:27Georgia Hardstark?

  the only thing she can keep down, which are Little Debbie peanut butter and cheese crackers. Minnie's daughter, Earlene, is becoming increasingly worried about her mom, who insists that she's fine. I feel like that's a generation where they just didn't, you know, acknowledge being not well.

• 40:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:43Georgia Hardstark?

  By December, the symptoms have not let up, and Minnie is noticeably weaker. Finally, on December 10, she calls her daughter, Earlene, and says the stomach pains have worsened, and she now also has chest pains. They take her to the hospital. Basically, they check her heart, and nothing shows up, so Minnie's discharged. But there's no improvement. And Minnie then goes back to her primary doctor. A few days later, the doctor finds out she had been having bloody stools for weeks now. And so Minnie goes back to the ER and is admitted. But it takes several more days before a stool sample is sent for pathogen testing, which is unclear why that took so long. But it's only at the end of December

• 41:27Georgia Hardstark?

  that a clear diagnosis comes back as Salmonella, particularly a strain called Salmonella typhimirium, which is one of the leading strains of foodborne illness. So Minnie is discharged, but she's very weak, and she has several other big health episodes over the month of January, and passes away on January 20, devastating her family, because Minnie had been so healthy before this short period started. And because they had been so worried about Minnie all of that time and through January, it seems that her family doesn't immediately register this coincidence, maybe, that in the same month, a major Salmonella outbreak is traced back to a company called

• 42:12Georgia Hardstark?

  The Peanut Corporation of America, which mainly sells peanuts and peanut butter to other companies in industrial quantities to be used in snacks like Minnie's favorite peanut butter crackers. Yeah, the one thing that she was able to eat while she was being made sick from that one thing she was able to eat. It's so sad. So this is the story of a foodborne safety crisis that ended up causing multiple deaths and had criminal consequences. The main sources for the story are reporting from The New Yorker and The Washington Post, as well as a blog post from a very prominent food safety lawyer named Bill Marler, who represented some of the victims in this case. The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.

• 42:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So the outbreak had begun in the fall of 2008, and a total of 714 people are known to have become sick from it. But I guess in these situations, the real number is always much higher, because a lot of people don't recognize their GI symptoms as Salmonella. And that's mainly because they're strong enough to fight off the infection and don't become dangerously dehydrated. So these outbreaks are often much, much bigger than is reported and realized.

• 43:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So people just will have Salmonella and just not know it?

• 43:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, you know, you and me, we're, you know, younger. We have the immune system that can fight it. But it's, you know, children and immunocompromised and elderly people, those are the ones who can't fight it and are hospitalized and found out. So it's probably way higher than that number.

• 43:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you had food poisoning?

• 43:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think I've had legit food poisoning before. I think I would remember, right?

• 43:50Karen Kilgariff?

  You would know.

• 43:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I remember Vince ate an oyster when we were in Las Vegas, and I can't imagine.

• 43:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It's insane. Like, I got it one time from a Chinese chicken salad.

• 44:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 44:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That was like made with cabbage.

• 44:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And I truly was like, I think I'm going to die. Like, I was like, when do I call someone? Because I haven't been able to stop doing this for two, three days.

• 44:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It's that long. It's two, three days.

• 44:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like your system has to purge, and then it won't stop purging. And it's crazy. Yeah, it's awful.

• 44:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, so yeah, for children especially, and the elderly, you know, it's a problem. In early November of that year, a seven-year-old boy named Christopher Minier from South Burlington, Vermont, spikes a high fever. It's the first time his mother can remember him being sick since he was a toddler. He has bloody diarrhea and is throwing up, and his stomach pain is so severe, he screams that he wants to die.

• 44:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, God.

• 44:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. So while this is going on all over the country, both state and federal health organizations are still trying to pinpoint the source of the contamination. They realize people are getting sick. They don't know how. In Minnesota, where there are nine known cases, a group of grad students working in the Department of Public Health start calling patients about their diets. The group works at night, and they call themselves Team Diarrhea, which is, I don't know how to comment on that.

• 45:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Whatever gets them through their day, because they actually, they do have to deal with literal diarrhea.

• 45:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a dark time. Whatever gets you through it.

• 45:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 45:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Eventually, in late December, they get a break. They find that two nursing homes and an elementary school each have a cluster of cases, and everyone seems to have eaten peanut butter. One of the nursing homes still has a jar of peanut butter that they had used on hand. It's from a brand called King Nut, which only sells to institutions like nursing homes, hospitals, and schools, and is fully made by The Peanut Corporation of America, which I don't think you should be allowed to call your company that. Doesn't it seem like they represent the country in peanuts? Like, call it Joe's Peanut Corporation. It's not like...

• 46:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's like NBC is the National Biscuit Company, or whatever. Like, that's, it was a, it was a good naming device back then, because it's like, no, no, no, I'm not just a guy that built this by myself earlier. It's, we're a whole thing of America.

• 46:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think we should be able to do that. It's just, it's so not clear that it's like just a fucking company of executives making decisions, you know?

• 46:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just a bunch of people that do not have peanut allergies.

• 46:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. So The Peanut Corporation of America had originated as a family business started by a man named Hugh Parnell, who mostly sold raw peanuts to candy manufacturers. In 1977, the Parnells buy a roasting facility in Virginia and start roasting their own peanuts and eventually making their own peanut products. In the 90s, Hugh sells the company. But just six years later, his sons buy it back, led by the eldest named Stuart, so that's Stuart Parnell. And business booms through the early 2000s. People looking at the situation in retrospect now think that the key to their success laid in three hallmark practices of the business, which is, number one, sourcing the cheapest peanuts possible; number two, paying workers very little;

• 47:16Georgia Hardstark?

  and number three, not maintaining the facilities very well, just like Exactly Right Media.

• 47:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I will show you pictures of that, of that Halloween party they had.

• 47:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, they had a Halloween party.

• 47:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It was the best. It was so good. They really did it.

• 47:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So there's a man named David Brooks. He's a buyer for a snack company, and he has long refused to do business with The Peanut Corporation of America. And this was based on three visits he made to the company's processing facility in the 80s. Brooks says, quote, "It was just filthy. Dust was all over the beams, the braces of the building. The roof leaked, the windows would be open, and birds would fly through the building. It was just a time bomb waiting to go off, and everybody in the peanut industry in Georgia, Virginia, and Texas, they all knew," end quote.

• 48:05Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, I'm just thinking of, like, and I'm truly talking off the top of my head and out of my ass right now.

• 48:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:12Karen Kilgariff?

  But, but like, it feels to me like the peanut industry was really like a major thing in this country. Like, back in the day, you know what I mean? Like peanut farmers and like the way, you know, people in Georgia, like, made their money. And it was a huge thing. There's a reason we all eat peanut butter.

• 48:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. We eat so much freaking peanut butter in this country, I'd imagine, more than anywhere else.

• 48:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and they're like, yeah, the birds can come through here.

• 48:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Peanut scientists, email us at myfavoritemurder@gmail, and tell us.

• 48:44Karen Kilgariff?

  We want to know.

• 48:45Georgia Hardstark?

  We want to know how big it is. How big is big peanut here in the US?

• 48:49Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, they just did get, because it is, you know, it's Halloween time. But they just did a story about how candy is getting really bad, because like private equity keeps buying into candy companies, and then just being like, you don't need real cocoa. You don't need real this. And they just keep making everything taste worse.

• 49:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And everyone's like, oh, is it because I'm not a kid anymore? No, it's because nobody gives a fuck anymore.

• 49:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we need that oversight. We got to bring it back.

• 49:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Imagine that. So Brooks mentions the fact that it's also Georgia, Virginia, and Texas, because The Peanut Corporation of America has facilities in all three states, and all appear to be equally filthy. I know. This seems to consistently remain the case into the 90s and the 2000s. In 2006, a new assistant manager named Ken Kendrick points out cleanliness issues at the facility, the leaking roof being the most egregious. And he'll later tell reporters, quote, "Water, particularly anything leaking off of a roof, and this is where things get a little disgusting, there is bird feces washing in."

• 49:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:55Georgia Hardstark?

  This is a quote. "The owner wouldn't give us the money to do what we needed to do. The funds were not there," end quote. And so he quits the job pretty quickly after he gets it. He's just like, I can't in good faith do this without...

• 50:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it is that thing where it's like, after a little while, the greed doesn't even make sense anymore. You are, it's just insanity, and you are doing damage and pretending it doesn't matter.

• 50:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, totally. There's a thing called moral...

• 50:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Moral peanuts?

• 50:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Moral peanuts.

• 50:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Where you don't put bird shit into your peanut mix?

• 50:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 50:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I love that kind.

• 50:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That, that's it. Moral peanuts.

• 50:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Moral peanuts.

• 50:37Georgia Hardstark?

  But then, in early 2009, after Ken had left the position, he hears that a PCA facility in Georgia has been linked to the salmonella outbreak in Minnesota. And so he actually calls authorities and keeps calling them, telling them that whatever problems they are seeing in Georgia will likely be found in the Texas facility as well. So he's just like, I'm not only going to quit my job, I'm going to be a whistleblower because this is so fucked.

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And how maddening, where you're like, it's worse than you even think because it's not just in the place you're focusing on, you've got more coming.

• 51:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, totally.

• 51:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible.

• 51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So sure enough, just as Ken had said, in February of 2009, Texas authorities shut down a peanut corporation plant in Plainview after discovering dead rodents, their excrement, and bird feathers near an air exchange that ventilates into the production room. Have you heard that thing where like, there's allowed to be a certain amount of like, bug parts in peanut butter, something like that?

• 51:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. There's all kinds of things like that with food and, again.

• 51:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want to know.

• 51:43Karen Kilgariff?

  The problem with, like, when they made that argument of like, corporations or people?

• 51:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like.

• 51:48Georgia Hardstark?

  God.

• 51:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But the problem is that there's some people in this world that are immoral and don't give a shit about other people.

• 51:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It's ugly.

• 51:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking not so.

• 51:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not a good thing.

• 51:58Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 51:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Later, it'll become apparent that there was either a massive oversight on the part of Texas authorities, or possibly some corruption that's never been fully unraveled. That Texas plant opened in 2005, and at the plant, peanuts were blanched, roasted, and chopped, but the facility never got a state license to manufacture food. The state never performed a single inspection until that one, four years later, when all the rodent and bird activity was discovered.

• 52:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Damn.

• 52:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So, that's allegedly. Tests from this inspection come back positive for salmonella, and a sweeping recall is issued of everything ever produced at the facility in the entire time it had been in operation. So all of this, of course, is very bad, but what makes this situation cross over into criminal territory? Well, when the FDA inspects the Georgia plant, they invoke a 2002 law aimed at counteracting bioterrorism, and they do this in order to gain access to the company records. So it wasn't criminal until this moment, that they were so, you know, lax.

• 53:02Karen Kilgariff?

  This was more like they were going to be given fines and told to clean up and the usual thing.

• 53:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. But I think it was so, it's so severe that the FDA was like, oh, fuck this. These are records that state inspectors, you know, wouldn't have been able to gain access if it was just, you know, regular charges. These records show that on 12 occasions between 2007 and 2008, tests of peanut products made in the Georgia plants came up showing salmonella contamination. And after this, subsequent tests seemed to come up with clean results, but these initial tests would have prompted the company to quarantine the products and deep clean the processing plants, but none of that happened.

• 53:42Karen Kilgariff?

  They're not even lightly cleaning, they're not even doing a.

• 53:45Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 53:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Karen on a Saturday afternoon, just in case someone drops by, pass over clean, like.

• 53:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope.

• 53:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Bird shit.

• 53:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Bird and rat shit.

• 53:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, come on. Why do we have to ask?

• 54:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly. Yeah, why can't? At the same time, in February of 2009, at the start of the Obama administration, Congress conducts its own investigation into the company, and through this investigation, internal emails are released. These emails demonstrate that Stuart Parnell, the head of the company, the son of the guy who started it, and other higher ups knew there were issues with salmonella and other food safety concerns. It also shows that the company would falsify test results by testing one batch of products repeatedly, then assigning those results to lot numbers of products that had never been tested. Peanut Corporation of America had signed contracts with food manufacturers, including

• 54:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Kellogg's, certifying that all peanuts had been grown in the US, unless otherwise specified. But it becomes apparent with the records that about 70% of the peanut paste the company had sent to Kellogg's had actually been from overseas. So they're just straight up lying.

• 54:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sorry, because this is a little random, but this reminds me of that story, that a doc series that came out about the mortuary guy that was just throwing bodies, where it's like, the internal mechanism to go, what's right or wrong, what's good or bad, and they're not seeing, it's like, yeah, you can't just do one of these and walk away.

• 55:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Consequences.

• 55:19Karen Kilgariff?

  There's consequences, and you're creating a situation that you're going to have to answer for at some point.

• 55:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 55:25Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't just keep putting like, a cover over it and being like, it's fine.

• 55:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 55:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just crazy. It stresses me out.

• 55:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, you can when there's no oversight whatsoever. In another email, Stuart's daughter, who works at the company, emails the company's national sales manager and says, quote, "They," meaning the peanuts, "need to be air hosed off because they are covered with dust and rat crap," end quote. So she put it in fucking writing.

• 55:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Throw those ones away. Don't air hose. No.

• 55:54Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, it's five second rule and rat shit. Doesn't fucking, that doesn't work.

• 55:58Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no air hose. There's no, what the fuck?

• 56:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:03Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, I like, I love a person coming in and pretending they're really mad, where it's like, you know, we have to air hose these all off.

• 56:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Or it's like, no, no, no, it's over.

• 56:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And also, like, how crazy is it they put it in writing? That like, did that mean they didn't think that they were doing anything wrong, or that they didn't think they'd ever get caught?

• 56:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I think this was early enough in like, computer internet times, where no one understood it was forever.

• 56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right, right, right, right. Totally.

• 56:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Including like, email stuff. They're just like, this is my private email server.

• 56:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. It's work email. Yeah. Another set of emails from March of 2007 has a manager from one plant telling Stuart that the test results for salmonella and other pathogens were not ready for a batch of peanut products that were scheduled to go out, and Stuart wrote back, quote, "Just ship it," end quote. So like, bro.

• 56:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Just fuck it.

• 56:54Georgia Hardstark?

  No. And then goes home at night and is like, to the kids, like, don't eat, don't eat that peanut butter. Yes, we get free peanut butter from the plant that I own, but you were not, we don't have that in the house.

• 57:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Is this the kind of person that's gotten a family for themselves, or is this the kind of person that leaves work, goes straight to a bar, talks very loudly about other things, and tries to push all of the air hosing off of rat shit away?

• 57:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet both. I bet both of those things are true.

• 57:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Some people can do it all, truly.

• 57:23Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true. Two years after these investigations begin, in 2013, Stuart Parnell, his brother, Michael, and three other company executives are indicted. Two of the other executives plead guilty and cooperate in exchange for a lighter sentence. The third is found guilty and sentenced to six years in prison. And Stuart and Michael, who own the company and are the sons of the guy who created it, they're found guilty of multiple counts of conspiracy, mail and wire fraud, and the sale of misbranded food. Stuart is also convicted of the introduction of adulterated food into interstate commerce.

• 58:01Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not allowed to do that?

• 58:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Like, it sounds like a kidnapping thing, where it's like, oh, you took this food over state lines.

• 58:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And you adulterated it, or in adulterated it?

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. You did something gross to it.

• 58:13Karen Kilgariff?

  You did something adult to it.

• 58:14Georgia Hardstark?

  These are some of the stiffest sentences ever given to an executive in a food poisoning outbreak, again, in Obama's administration, because that would never happen today. Investigators believe that as many as 20,000 people, possibly more, were made sick from salmonella in Peanut Corporation of America products. At least nine people, but possibly more, died.

• 58:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 58:40Georgia Hardstark?

  But were never traced back to the PCA.

• 58:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 58:42Georgia Hardstark?

  No children are killed in the outbreak, but several become very ill.

• 58:46Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 58:47Georgia Hardstark?

  In the wake of this and other outbreaks, the Obama administration introduced sweeping new regulations to food safety systems aimed at preventing outbreaks instead of reacting to them. Unfortunately, during the second Trump administration, the FDA has lost about 20% of its staff, and the CDC has lost 25% of their staff. The CDC used to have 11 scientists tracking food parasites, now it has three.

• 59:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And one of them is RFK.

• 59:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I am too a scientist.

• 59:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, and Ivanka. Ivanka Trump is the head of the. These cuts were widely attributed to having exacerbated the cyclospora outbreak from this past summer.

• 59:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 59:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, guys, it's all connected. And that is the story of the Peanut Corporation of America scandal.

• 59:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sorry, but I kind of want to rename my LLC, The Peanut Corporation of America.

• 59:44Georgia Hardstark?

  What about the Karen Kilgariff Corporation of America? You're the only one who's in charge of Karen Kilgariff.

• 59:50Karen Kilgariff?

  But I love bird shit, so I have a real, there's a real push pull about me and my recipes.

• 59:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Just hose down your house with the air hose before people come over.

• 1:00:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna have to air hose this cat shit out of your dinner.

• 1:00:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:00:06Karen Kilgariff?

  What? No, thank you.

• 1:00:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Oh, God, it just makes you want to just grow your own food for the rest of your life.

• 1:00:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it feels like that's what so many people are doing.

• 1:00:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, and also, of course, this podcast will kill you did an episode on salmonella. That is incredible. So go listen to that. It's episode 99. Check that out.

• 1:00:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 1:00:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, get all the ins and outs of salmonella that you, that you didn't get here.

• 1:00:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Get it so that you know when it, when it's happening, instead of being like, I'm so sick. And no, you're not like you ate something wrong. Um, did you see the Lizzie Borden, Monsters, Lizzie Borden Show? There's a scene in it where they eat tainted oyster stew.

• 1:00:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:00:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And it is the most disgusting, but probably accurate scene I have ever seen. That made me go, no, I'm never eating oysters again.

• 1:00:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I have to say, you just reminded me, I started that before I left for vacation. And it was, I think I got to episode two of that, of Lizzie Borden, the Monsters.

• 1:01:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Ella Beatty, she's Warren Beatty and Annette Bening's daughter, and she's incredible in it.

• 1:01:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:01:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:01:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. So here's the thing about acting nepo babies is they got raised by actors.

• 1:01:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:01:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's not, it's different than some of these nepo situations. Like, it's like, if you have a mom that's the most bad, if you have, if your mom's Meryl Streep, you should get parts because you, you already know how to do this shit.

• 1:01:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I feel like with this one, Ella Beatty's like, bitches, no one better call me a nepo baby because I'm gonna do this so well. Like, it's, it's really good.

• 1:01:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Back up, back all the way up. I love that. That's a truly hot take in 2026. I'm like, you know what? I love nepo babies.

• 1:01:46Georgia Hardstark?

  We need more nepo babies, plumber nepo babies, Peanut Corporation of America nepo babies.

• 1:01:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I was gonna say, the Peanut Corporation of America really was not served by their nepo babies. It's like, it depends on the, on the milieu.

• 1:02:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, can we talk about who the first podcasting nepo baby is gonna be? Because there's gonna be one, and it's not gonna be ours. Who's it gonna be? Well, she grew up with a podcaster, so of course she has a podcast.

• 1:02:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course she speaks compulsively about things that happen in junior high that don't apply to the subject at hand.

• 1:02:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, Ira Glass, where are your children? Are they podcasting? We need to know.

• 1:02:28Karen Kilgariff?

  We demand to see your children.

• 1:02:30Georgia Hardstark?

  We must know. Well.

• 1:02:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That was great. I mean, upsetting, and there's a lot to think about. People are all opening their packages of something with peanut butter and closing them back up.

• 1:02:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Seriously, like Uncrustables would never, you know?

• 1:02:42Karen Kilgariff?

  God, we'd know right away.

• 1:02:45Georgia Hardstark?

  We would, because I live off of those.

• 1:02:48Karen Kilgariff?

  They're pretty goddamn great.

• 1:02:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, thanks for listening, everyone. From, we're back from break, and we're happy. We'll be back on video next week.

• 1:02:55Karen Kilgariff?

  This was very retro. This actually reminds me of COVID.

• 1:02:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, me too. The pandemic, having to record on fucking Zoom every time.

• 1:03:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, be like, hey, what's up?

• 1:03:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you have to see your own stupid face in the Zoom thing. I hate it.

• 1:03:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. Well, I covered mine. I used my piece of paper to cover the Zoom thing while I was talking because I just will keep on looking at my hair.

• 1:03:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not even.

• 1:03:20Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a whole part I just don't brush. I'm sure you've noticed. There's a whole part I'm like, oh, that's not my problem. That's whoever's back there's problem.

• 1:03:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It's none of your business. If you can't see it, that part of your hair is none of your business.

• 1:03:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's what my mother did, and so that's what I will do.

• 1:03:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I'm a nepo baby. A nepo baby.

• 1:03:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Of laziness.

• 1:03:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:39Karen Kilgariff?

  All right. Thanks, everybody. Stay sexy.

• 1:03:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered. Goodbye.

• 1:03:45Speaker 04

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:03:54Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:03:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Our managing producer is Molly Smith.

• 1:03:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Our consulting producer is Kate Schellbach.

• 1:04:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Our creative lead is Allison Agosti.

• 1:04:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Our associate producer is Tessa Hughes, and our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:04:06Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:04:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McLaughlin and Ally Elkin.

• 1:04:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected] and follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:04:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:04:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for My Favorite Murder, add us to your list, and hit the double thumbs up button.

• 1:04:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:04:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 1:04:44Georgia Hardstark?

  With Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 1:04:50Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 1:04:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:04:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 1:05:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye. You know a favorite M word? Magnesium.

• 1:05:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 1:05:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.

• 1:05:16Karen Kilgariff?

  If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine.

• 1:05:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Generously spritz each foot before bed, and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this, and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.

• 1:05:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.

• 1:05:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye.

• 1:05:38Speaker 03

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