Will This Heartbreak Ever End?

Nothing changes us quite like our first love—or our first heartbreak. After falling in love for the first time in his late twenties, he now finds himself navigating the pain of his first breakup. He comes to Esther in search of clarity, healing, and a way forward. Esther Callings are a one time, one hour interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Esther Perel?

  Just for me to hear it directly from you, rather than in writing, just tell me the question and a little bit about the context of your question.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah. So my first relationship ended around a year ago now. And as I'm 29 right now, it ended when I was 28. And I've been having a really hard time ever since, with ups and downs. Luckily, it hasn't all been completely depressing, but it has been quite a hard time. And I reconnected several times after the breakup with my ex, and that didn't help. But that's also part of the issue, I think. And the question that I have is, how do I let go of someone that is not into me in a romantic sense anymore? And I know that's for the better, because the relationship was very hard

• 0:56Speaker 01

  and had very, or had many toxic dynamics that were not good for either of us. And so my primary question is, how to let go of a heartbreak that is your first heartbreak at the age of 29, which complicates things maybe a bit. And of course, there are way more details to this in my own history as well, that led up to this point.

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• 3:08Esther Perel?

  What's important for me to know about your first love? The ending? The troubles of the relationship? The relationship school that you went to in your childhood? What is important for me to know?

• 3:28Speaker 01

  I think that the relationship itself, and it took some time for me to notice, but looked somewhat familiar to the relationship that my parents have still to this day.

• 3:41Esther Perel?

  Which is?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Emotionally detached from each other as well, which also had an effect on me and my siblings. And although they did their very best, they also, and primarily my mother, came from quite troubled backgrounds with large families and also no emotional or very little emotional availability from their parents. And that's something that when I was younger, I never really stood still by until my sister first asked me the same question, like, "Do you ever feel unheard by, emotionally unheard or not seen by my parents?" And she first asked me that when I was like 18.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  And I didn't really... Connect to that question very much, so I told my sister.

• 4:35Esther Perel?

  Huh? What are you talking about?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Exactly, more or less. I was like, well, no, I I was just too occupied with my own things at the time and I was not. I didn't have any like real relationship experience back then and. So I was just doing my things, enjoying myself with my friends and things like that. So, yeah, I was like, I was surprised, like, no. I I I have no clue what you're talking about, basically. Um, and over the last couple of years, that made more sense already, also before my relationship with my my now ex-girlfriend. But now that that relationship concluded and also somewhat during the relationship. I felt so seen in that relationship by my first girlfriend.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  That I attached myself way too quickly to the relationship as well. And that was some a dynamic that we created um together. It felt somewhat like love bombing, if you could say it like that, but I was just as much there as my ex-girlfriend was. So, yeah, I think that that's a little bit of context, like in regards to my youth.

• 5:43Esther Perel?

  So I didn't know that I missed love, closeness, connection.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Affection as well, physical affection.

• 5:52Esther Perel?

  Affection, affection, yes. But when I met her. Everything in me was screaming, longing and yearning for all of it. In big gulps.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much so.

• 6:11Esther Perel?

  And I allowed it, I welcomed it, I I scared myself, I scared her, or none of the above?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Um, no, no, because um I started dating and I was still a virgin before I started dating and that was at twenty six. Um, I started dating and it uh I met several wonderful girls, but none of them worked out. And I think I met around seven or eight girls that I dated at least a couple of times, most of them. Um, some a little more, some a little less. And then I met my ex-girlfriend and I was also so desperately looking for a relationship. Which wasn't healthy, but I had no experience whatsoever, so I was just like. Like a fish looking for for food in an open ocean without any food. And then I met her and she came out of.

• 7:04Esther Perel?

  Hold on, hold on. I was like a fish looking for food in an open ocean where there was no food.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 7:14Esther Perel?

  That is quite an image.

• 7:18Esther Perel?

  Describe it for me.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there were a couple of dates um back then that I attached the first one, actually, which also felt quite wonderful. After like the second date, we we kissed and after a couple of more dates, we ended up in bed and that was my first time. And in that sense, I had experimented way before that time when I was younger, but it was it had nothing to do with with love. So that was the real first time and and I got so attached.

• 7:51Esther Perel?

  And how was that for you? Slow down, slow down, slow down. You're telling me so many things and so many important things. Um is it okay if we slow down a little bit?

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah, yeah. If you can help me with that, that's a big right.

• 8:07Esther Perel?

  So let's take a deep breath first of all, just to bring a different rhythm inside your body.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 8:24Esther Perel?

  So this was your first, maybe not your first sexual experience, but your first partnered experience that involved love.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:36Esther Perel?

  So you were a virgin, you were not a virgin?

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was a virgin. It was not my first sexual experience, but I was still a virgin, yeah.

• 8:45Esther Perel?

  And how was that for you? Was she or she had more experience than you?

• 8:50Speaker 01

  No, she I believe she came out of a relationship of eight years, so she had quite a lot of experience. And I was quite open about the fact that I didn't have any experience. Um and that first time was both beautiful, a little awkward and a little um a little forced almost on my end.

• 9:15Esther Perel?

  Meaning I didn't really want to, but I thought I should. Meaning what?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  No, no, I wanted to, but the force bit is actually with a a problem that I discovered. And I didn't really know that it was a a larger issue until then. Uh but it was that I had great trouble getting to an orgasm. And um and that was my first time, so I didn't think too much of it. But I almost, like in my head, I had that picture of it must happen, like it is supposed to happen. Like I'm a man like uh so it was, yeah, it was in that sense forced uh in my own uh in my own mind.

• 9:58Esther Perel?

  And I felt that I was taking long in or achieving an orgasm or in ejaculating?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  In, I think, achieving an orgasm.

• 10:11Esther Perel?

  They're not the same, you know that?

• 10:13Speaker 01

  No, no, yeah, yeah.

• 10:15Esther Perel?

  Okay. And you experienced that how? You were surprised, you were curious, you were anxious, you were worried, you were? What what what did that represent, if anything?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Um I think I was somewhat worried that it would not happen.

• 10:35Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Um.

• 10:36Esther Perel?

  Before?

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, not so, no, not before, because I didn't have the experience to really know until then. And uh there came a point while we were intimate, me and and that first girl that I dated back then. And um and she's, it came to a point where she said, it like you don't have to uh orgasm per se. Like we don't have to force anything. And rationally, that made complete sense. But emotionally, I was like, uh I'm not sure if I really felt like a failure. But I felt like, yeah, but it it should happen, right? Like, why why can't it happen? And that made it forced. And in the end, I'm not even sure if it happened anymore.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Or if it happened, I did it myself. And I came to know after other girls that I dated that that was a larger issue. I think it's mostly caused by stress or performance anxiety or however you want to call it, something along those lines.

• 11:38Esther Perel?

  What do you call it?

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Um I think I would call it. Um, yeah, there's a beautiful Dutch word for it. I'm not sure if you know the English translation. Foul angst.

• 11:51Esther Perel?

  Fear of failure?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Fear of failure, yeah. I, I think that's maybe one of the key factors there. I would call it fear of failure to perform. And what I noticed when I eventually met my ex-girlfriend, I had the same issue. And initially, the first time we were intimate, she was somewhat shocked that I tried to finish myself because I can imagine you don't encounter men with this issue every day. Like, there are most likely other men that have similar issues. There are men that have issues with coming too soon. But she was quite surprised and we talked about that. And I explained that I've never been able to uh, come from penetration before. And then we started working on that.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  And I stopped masturbating and after a month, she was able to let me come. And then things improved and we were able to, or I was able to come during penetration. And I think part of that was the fact that we uh, fell in love so quickly, almost unhealthy quickly, that I was on cloud nine, basically. I was out of this world, like I just switched to a new job. I found my first girlfriend back then. We were not official, but things were going really great. So I just, I was elevated by that feeling.

• 13:14Esther Perel?

  There's nothing wrong with that.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  No, I know, I know.

• 13:17Esther Perel?

  There's nothing wrong with that. That's why we call it falling in love.

• 13:23Esther Perel?

  We don't call it, you know, climbing step by step.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 13:27Esther Perel?

  Okay. Tell me something, just on, on this issue itself. You had experience with, with orgasm and ejaculation, but primarily through masturbation.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:41Esther Perel?

  And you basically have learned how to let go with yourself. But not with a partner, until then.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:53Esther Perel?

  There are trust issues involved, there are control issues involved, and they are basically consequences of bad habituation.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:03Esther Perel?

  When you spend many years primarily masturbating, you develop a certain habit of pressure, friction, speed, you name it, and it becomes exactly.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  The default.

• 14:15Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah.

• 14:17Esther Perel?

  Yeah, tailor made.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:21Esther Perel?

  You know, as you exactly like it, and you don't have to temper with anyone else, and you don't have to synchronize, and you don't have to learn how to stay connected to your own pleasure, to your own sensations, while at the same time staying connected with the other person. But it sounds like you were able to create that together, both of you.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:43Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:44Esther Perel?

  And you were on cloud nine, because it's a beautiful feeling, and you had a new job and a new girlfriend and a very elated experience of nascent love.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:54Esther Perel?

  And so far, so good. So when does it start to turn that you say, I miss the woman, I don't miss the relationship, or I miss the beginning?

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 15:08Esther Perel?

  I don't miss what followed.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah. So I think that the relationship itself became quite difficult early on, and.

• 15:20Esther Perel?

  Difficult means what?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, my ex-girlfriend, two months prior to us meeting for the first time, came out of a, what you would call a situationship, I think, that lasted, I'm not sure how long exactly, but four to five, maybe six months, which was also quite hard on her and, yeah, was quite toxic, for as far as I have heard the stories. And I think that she, from the very start, was very scared of me leaving very early on. And after a couple of dates with my ex-girlfriend, she sent me a. Screenshot, I believe, of her deleting her Tinder account. We met through Tinder. And I sent a screen recording of me deleting my dating apps.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  But I had paid for Tinder Platinum for six months and I still had three months remaining. So I deleted the apps, but I didn't delete the account. And she was quite surprised to hear that after the next date. And asked me like, why do you need a backup? Why do you need to keep your account as a backup? And I was like, well, we've only met a couple of times and I really enjoyed spending time with you. But I have no clue how this will go. So under some pressure, I also deleted the account. Because I did feel all the excitement of the connection that I had with her. So that was the first little kind of discussion. It was not really a fight, but like I can also voice my opinion as well. So I voiced my opinion and I was like, well, I don't need a backup.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  But it's just because I paid for six months and that's expensive. So who knows what happens here? I will not use it. But I think that she didn't really trust me not using it of, because of previous experiences. She had quite a few relationships and dates and many of them had their own issues. Like many relationships that Phil have, I realized that, of course.

• 17:14Esther Perel?

  Let me if I hear you. Well, when we met, there was a lot of beautiful elixir between us. But also very quickly, did we bring to each other anxieties, insecurities, vulnerabilities, fear of abandonment, fear of lack of attention, fear of neglect.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:43Esther Perel?

  That kind of pre-existed even meeting. We brought them in the suitcase and we opened the suitcase right in front of the other and said, "Help me."

• 17:53Speaker 01

  You could say that.

• 17:54Esther Perel?

  Save me, cure me.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:57Esther Perel?

  Take all these bad feelings away from me. And both of you did so?

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:03Esther Perel?

  What did you learn about yourself? And what did you discover? Since you're the one who I'm talking to. What did you discover about what you missed, what you wanted, what you needed, what you hadn't had? Yeah, let's start with that.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  I think a couple of things that stood out to me pretty early on. Um, that at the moment, or at that moment, I didn't fully comprehend yet. But after a couple of months, I started to slowly understand that the lack of affection that I lacked, I think, in childhood as well, but also in my, like, adolescence and growing up and becoming a teenager and my early twenties. The affection that I received from her matched the affection that suited my, uh, my inner child, to say it like that, to, that suited my, my, yeah, my mental being.

• 19:00Esther Perel?

  It was the ocean with nutrients.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the ocean with nutrients, exactly.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  And also the, uh, our conversations with, which could both go very in-depth about our insecurities and our, like, our past and things that I've missed and that she missed in previous partners or, uh, or also in childhood. And sharing those, those experiences, but also the feeling of, that primarily for me was so profound, the feeling of feeling so safe with someone else, to open up and be completely vulnerable and to feel like you're, or to feel myself like I was finally completely myself, if that makes sense.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  And when I, like, that relationship got so difficult so quick, but there almost was no hair on my head thinking that I would ever let that feeling go. There was one time that I also considered ending it because it cost me, like, all of my energy, basically. And still I couldn't do it. Still I could not break that relationship because of, I think, because of the feelings of a loss that I would have to endure for the affection that I would lose, the emotional intimacy that I would lose.

• 20:37Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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• 22:48Esther Perel?

  How did it end? Just to get a sense of the full circle. How did it end?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Um, so it officially ended January of last year. And it ended, uh, there was no, at that point, no particular event that caused the breakup. But I think, and I had seen that like throughout the relationship, that my ex-girlfriend also had to deal with a lot of internal emotions around the relationship as well. I think those were both a combination of the relationship itself and the past experiences that she had. And she, uh, it was right around Christmas 2023. And she, we were heading to her parents, actually.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  And, um, um, this is just one of the more clearer bits that I remember. And she discussed with me that she thought that we should like end this after Christmas and that we should just do Christmas for our parents because of everything they have, uh, they had organized. Uh, we should just do that and after that call it quits. And that was not, not the first time. We, uh, uh, broke up for a week earlier that year.

• 24:03Esther Perel?

  But you would break up because what? What would create the cycle? I understand that you tried to break up a few times and you would come back or she would come back. So what, what, what was the circle?

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 24:18Esther Perel?

  You know, when you say it became bad quick.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 24:23Esther Perel?

  I mean, you, you're very clear. It became bad quick, but I just couldn't bear the thought of losing the, the, the physical affection, the connection, the emotional intimacy, even though it was becoming more and more fraught and I could rely on it less and less. I was holding on to what it once had been and what I now knew it could be possible and what I wanted to find my way back to. But that's not how it happened. So if you gave me, when you say that Christmas stands out.

• 24:58Esther Perel?

  Why this thought we should end? That was part of the conversation. Every time there was an issue, one of you would say, this will never work. Or something happened that said, this is fraught, this is not possible. And just be as concrete as can be. I mean, I know I'm fishing with a broad net and I'm...

• 25:20Speaker 01

  I understand, yeah. Um, so, uh, in the beginning of the relationship, when we would face difficulties, we would both get into discussions that would end in dynamics such as, she would expect things of me that I felt like I couldn't give to her at that point. More time together, um, while the relationship was already quite difficult in the beginning. I was quite avoidant, I would say, somewhat avoidant in the beginning primarily. And she was quite anxious, so she would need more closeness. I would pull back a little because the relationship got sour points or sour bits quite quickly. I still loved her dearly and I didn't want to lose the connection.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  But I felt like I needed a little bit of space to get my head back on my, on my body. And that would mean that she would think that I was just putting away and like, that the relationship didn't matter to me or not as much as it mattered to her back then. And that dynamic changed over time, like at the second part, let's say, like the second half of our relationship. I wouldn't enter that dynamic anymore. I would just like hear, try to hear her points because I also felt unheard at many occasions when I tried to voice my perspective. And I saw that her emotions were quite serious and she could get really emotional. And that's also something that she was very honest about from the very start,

• 26:46Speaker 01

  that she could get very emotional in both positive and negative ways. And I just tried to deal, the second half of the relationship, I tried to deal with the turmoil, um, of the, of the relationship, basically.

• 27:01Esther Perel?

  And do what? And do what?

• 27:04Speaker 01

  So, for example, the fact that I made an OnlyFans account long ago, which I had used long ago and which I still had, did not use in a relationship, but she asked me in the middle of the night, I believe, we were going to bed late that night, and she asked me whether or not I have an OnlyFans account. I'm not sure how she came to that, but I think she was also looking for reasons, and this is also where my intimacy issue comes into play, which also made her insecure about me maybe being with another woman, having somebody else on my mind. I think that that plays into why she was thinking things like that, like, is there something else going on here that I don't know?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  And she asked that, and I told her, well, I still have an account, but I have not used it ever since, and also not when I was dating, I believe. And she was quite shocked by that, and the fact that I didn't tell her, and then she wanted to look at my phone, and I would become quite defensive because I was like, why don't you trust me? Because we've had trust issues before. So I felt, yeah, not seen before. There was also an instance where we were intimate together, and she found a hair around my genitalia, and she was convinced that it was somebody else's.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  And I think this also comes into an insecurity bit about our intimacy being so hot and cold as well, because we developed... I'm going all over the place, so if you want to intervene, let me know.

• 28:44Esther Perel?

  I will.

• 28:47Esther Perel?

  How did you know?

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I know when I start to explain this that I go all over the place.

• 28:54Esther Perel?

  But you get lost a little bit. You get lost and you create a kind of a distance between you and the emotions.

• 29:07Esther Perel?

  So you're telling me there were trust issues from the start,

• 29:13Esther Perel?

  that you may not have done big things, but you did just enough to elicit her worry

• 29:21Esther Perel?

  and her distrust and her suspicion?

• 29:25Esther Perel?

  And then she would do just enough to instigate your distancing.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:33Esther Perel?

  You're not being emotionally available, as you had well learned.

• 29:38Esther Perel?

  And so quite early on, each of you set the other one up in their most vulnerable parts. You withdraw, she gets suspicious and agitated. What was the presence? Were there other women involved? Was there porn involved? Was there anything to play around all of this?

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Um, I had a couple of dates before my ex-girlfriend. And I still had a couple on my Instagram followers list, and I followed them. But they were not on my mind at all anymore. Like, I might think of them occasionally, but not in a romantic sense or anything like that. Uh, I watched porn back in the, back in the days before I started dating. And while I was dating, I

• 30:30Esther Perel?

  You watched every once in a while or daily activity?

• 30:33Speaker 01

  No, be- before I, um, uh, started dating, I think I watched almost daily with periods of maybe a week of no watching and then a week of each, um, each day of the week and then maybe every other day. So that fluctuated a little, but quite frequently.

• 30:52Esther Perel?

  And how did it end? I asked you that before, but I don't think we got to the answer.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Um, the relationship.

• 31:01Esther Perel?

  Yeah. I mean, how did it?

• 31:05Esther Perel?

  There is the, the beginning of a series of endings, and then there is the final ending, so to speak. And then there is the ending inside that hasn't happened.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:14Esther Perel?

  So there are three endings here.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. The real ending of the relationship, I would say. We officially broke up in January of 2024. And then we tried, um, I, I called her maybe three or four times each week once. After the relationship ended and she was quite clear that she did not want to continue. And I just kept over analyzing the end of the relationship. And after I called her that fourth time, we ended that conversation that, which also lasted a couple of hours, I believe. And a couple of days later, she asked me to visit her and to talk. And she wanted to, to see and try if he could fix things a last time, one last time.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  So we tried that from like February of 2024 until a little bit into March of that year. And then it finally really ended, I would say.

• 32:13Esther Perel?

  May I stop you?

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:16Esther Perel?

  One thing I'm hearing you say is.

• 32:20Esther Perel?

  I grew up in a very detached way with people that were kind. And loving, but not particularly expressive or emotionally attuned. And part of what I think you're telling me is. When I start to feel, it's like opening a faucet at maximum capacity on the spot.

• 32:51Esther Perel?

  I don't open the faucet a little bit and then increase the stream. I open it right to the maximum. And the first feeling becomes a watershed, instantly leading to obsession.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's some truth to that at least, because what I tried to say earlier, that first girl that I dated, I noticed that I very quickly developed a lot of feelings for her, and I was quite aware of that as well. So I had that rational part of my brain saying, "This does not make sense. I know that you're head over heels right now, but this is reality, and this is just the first girl that you dated, so get your head back on. This is most likely not real." And it ended up not being real. And it took a couple of weeks, and I was somewhat sad about that. And then I continued dating, and I moved on.

• 33:50Esther Perel?

  But it's very, it is very real. The feelings are very real.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:56Esther Perel?

  Maybe what you'd say is, "I just met this person. On what basis am I already imagining a whole life, etc.?" But the feelings are very real, and there is no filter.

• 34:10Esther Perel?

  It's very interesting, the gap between how you emotionally

• 34:17Esther Perel?

  rush into something, flood it, flood yourself, try to hold back with reason, but don't succeed one iota, go at full speed, and then sexually, you practice in some way delayed gratification. You hold in, you hold in, you hold in with the person. It's the exact opposite from what happens to you emotionally. In one place, you're like gushing out, and in the other one, you're holding, holding, holding. And only alone, under complete supervision and control of your own hands, can you let go. And I wonder if you've ever thought about that,

• 35:02Esther Perel?

  the gap between the emotional gush and the sexual withholding.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  I don't think so, actually. Not in that way. But it makes complete sense.

• 35:18Esther Perel?

  Sit with this for a minute. You don't have to answer me right away, but just let this land, and then tell me if, what, how.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  I think that the thing you just described as well with my, as soon as I get the chance almost, or feel safe enough, of my like emotion gushing out and like just becoming a waterfall, basically. That sense of safety that I feel at that moment feels so, um, or for me so rare, that I think the fact that I, that I have the problem with getting to an orgasm is more or less, or maybe even harder of a, of a,

• 36:12Speaker 01

  of a hurdle to overcome. I think those two are interconnected as well.

• 36:17Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Because as soon as I felt more and more comfortable with my ex-girlfriend, I noticed and I knew that from the very start that it was most likely something that happens in my head.

• 36:28Esther Perel?

  So the more unfiltered, or what you may call out of control, that I don't think it's about that. But the more, the bigger the emotional watershed.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:42Esther Perel?

  The bigger the sexual restraint.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  I think so, maybe.

• 36:48Esther Perel?

  You're controlling one with the other.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Do you mean that the bigger the emotional connection almost, the harder the...

• 36:58Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Is that what you mean?

• 36:59Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but I'm not just talking about the quality of the connection. I'm also talking about the fact that you feel completely taken over. And like it's an obsession.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 37:11Esther Perel?

  Now, falling in love is an obsession.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 37:15Esther Perel?

  It has all the features of an obsession, of an...

• 37:19Speaker 01

  An addiction.

• 37:20Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but it's, it's a qualitative connection. You know, resemblance. And so,

• 37:26Esther Perel?

  part of what happens is that after that, we start to ground ourselves a little bit. You know?

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:34Esther Perel?

  Terra firma, let me put my feet and ground myself so that I am not like a leaf that can be blown in every direction at any moment by anything the other person says, does, or doesn't.

• 37:51Esther Perel?

  And because we have a regulatory system inside of us, sometimes our mind regulates our body and sometimes our body regulates our mind.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:01Esther Perel?

  I mean, they go back and forth in a very interdependent way with each other. But I'm just noticing the contrast between the flooding of the emotional and the restraining of the sexual.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Hmm. I think that's one part of the question deeper in me is how to gain control over both the emotion and my body as well and get those two in balance. I think that I am cool.

• 38:33Esther Perel?

  No, no, it's not about gaining control. It's about not losing the connection with yourself while you are experiencing an intense connection with someone else. It's about staying grounded. If you stood now with me in the office, I would ask you to stand and I would come and I would just push against you. And you would actually resist by staying steady while at the same time welcoming the push

• 39:14Esther Perel?

  rather than falling backwards because it feels so unstable, so chaotic, so without structure. You know, we have always a structure and a loose movement. We go back and forth between structure and spontaneity, between what happens and what is built. And what you experience is it becomes all happens and the build gets lost and that gets scary.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:00Speaker 07

  We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the try free button to subscribe to Astaire's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

• 40:18Speaker 08

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• 41:44Speaker 09

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• 41:55Speaker 12

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• 42:01Speaker 10

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• 42:04Speaker 13

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• 42:09Speaker 09

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• 42:17Esther Perel?

  So you end your relationship, because I'm going back to your original question, and you say, "It wasn't really good, what happened there. I don't exactly understand why you call it so toxic and negative and hard. But at the same time, when you say, 'I can't get over it,' means what? I look for her in every other woman? I keep remembering the good and I forget where we landed and where we ended? I can't accept the failure? What are we holding on to?

• 42:59Speaker 01

  I always felt I also had some self-esteem issues, like I had severe acne in the past, which also left scarring on my chest and my back. And that played a huge role in why I always pushed women away romantically.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Until there came a point where I had a childhood wish and I hoped to start a family one day and find a partner and hopefully for a long term. So I had to push through my own insecurities and started dating. And each time I met a new girl, things improved in that sense. And after six months of dating and finding my ex-girlfriend, I felt so exhausted and it almost felt like the coming of Jesus, that I found that girl and that we had such great chemistry, it felt like. And we did at the time. That I now am so afraid, well, I know that I can find love again. It's not that I racially don't know that, but emotionally,

• 44:01Speaker 01

  my emotions just continue like continue to end up with her in my mind. So I keep holding on to the things that we have and thinking about how difficult it might be to find that elsewhere, forgetting the fact, rationally I know, but forgetting the fact that it might be... Way more healthy than the relationship that I had with my ex. And I understand that that relationship was so complex that you maybe don't. It's hard to get a grasp of what exactly that toxicity means. But I also don't want to throw her under the bus. And I've made mistakes, she made mistakes. We both have experiences that we carried over and carried into a relationship.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  And now for me, the most difficult part and the thing that I struggle with the most is the fact of that I feel inadequate, that I feel that I'm also scared about how hard it can be to find a woman that is willing to accept me for who I am. And the right person will accept that, of course, but accept me for who I am and the struggles that I have with intimacy, because I love to be intimate. And I love the body of a woman that I love. But with that, I can completely understand that for many women, that can be a great obstacle. That's something that plays in my mind as well.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Like how I'm overcoming the fact that I need to start dating again. I hope to find someone who accepts that and is willing to discover that with me. Which is also a beautiful thing, actually.

• 45:36Esther Perel?

  I agree, I agree. But, and, no but, and this may not be a watershed. This one may start very differently. Love stories, I was just thinking, they're like pieces of music.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:57Esther Perel?

  They start in a different key, with a different rhythm, with a different volume, with a different introduction. You've known one.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:10Esther Perel?

  It's the first one, it's a very, very important one. But it's not by definition the one that shapes everything that follow. No. You know? I know that. So, the next encounter may be much slower. The next encounter, you may basically say, hey, I wanna tell you something about me sexually and emotionally. It changes as we get more connected, but at first, I enjoy pleasing you more than anything, but it may not be in this one predictable, heteronormative way that we are all taught is the necklace ultra.

• 46:53Esther Perel?

  And to actually, instead of hoping it doesn't happen and trying to hide it, you actually put it right up there as something about you that you know and that changes with time. It's the same in reverse. When a man has rapid ejaculation, they sometimes need to say, you know, I need to get really comfortable. And things change, but sometimes at first, I get a little, you know, ahead of myself and I don't really stay grounded enough in my own body. Yeah. I think that just talking about it as a performance anxiety misses the boat. That's kind of, you know, adhering to

• 47:37Esther Perel?

  a whole set of male competencies that you need to be able to perform. Performing is much less important than the pleasing. Please them and you'll perform perfectly fine. Doesn't matter what you do. And put the focus not on can I perform and can I be adequate and can I be competent and will my body betray me and will I, you know, not be able to control this and will my way into orgasm? That in itself usually kind of makes it worse. So, less performance, more pleasing. But also, different love stories, different musical introductions, different rhythm, different ambiance.

• 48:25Esther Perel?

  And therefore, different lyrics, different words, different story. And anybody will talk about, you know, what have you learned from your relationship history?

• 48:38Esther Perel?

  That's a beautiful question one can ask you. What's a mistake you hope you won't make again?

• 48:45Esther Perel?

  What's something that you would like to do that you didn't do last time? Or be more than do. And as you grow older, everybody will come with more stories and you will come with more stories.

• 49:00Esther Perel?

  And that will become your relationship resume.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:04Esther Perel?

  The one that you don't bring to work. That doesn't talk about all the jobs you've had, but the one that determines so much about how you live.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:13Esther Perel?

  So, you asked me, how do I get over my first relationship? And I don't know that that's exactly what we did. But tell me, since we arrive at the end, what is this conversation like for you?

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Hmm, very, I would say, almost refreshing in a sense. What I get out of this talk right now, right?

• 49:41Speaker 01

  I think perspective most of all.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  How you just explained how the issue that I have around my sexuality, how that can actually also bring depth to my, like, my personality and bringing my personality and that depth to a new partner. So, that's also something along the lines of the insecurities that I have around the scars that my, that the acne left. That's also something that I almost started to wear as a trophy, as like, yeah, but this is me, so take it or leave it.

• 50:20Esther Perel?

  No, this is not me.

• 50:24Esther Perel?

  This is me at this particular moment of my life with you in this situation.

• 50:32Esther Perel?

  You're not static, you're not unchangeable. And you're just learning. You're learning a whole new realm of experience.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 50:43Esther Perel?

  So, that sentence of "You take me as I am, take it or leave it, you accept me, because this is it, this is me," ain't gonna help you.

• 50:55Esther Perel?

  That doesn't mean you find someone who constantly criticizes you. But you don't, don't put yourself into a box. And I'm saying this in a very short way because we have to stop. But don't put yourself into a box. Let yourself grow, let yourself process, let yourself learn, let yourself make bad mistakes, or simply mistakes for that matter, or choices that you don't think lead anywhere. Be a good friend to yourself, in that sense. Speak to yourself the way you would speak if a friend was doing the same thing.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's also something that I've quite a lot of work on.

• 51:40Esther Perel?

  So, it's not one thing. It's developmental, meaning it's, it's history of life, story of life. And I'm just gonna put three dots at the end of the sentence because we won't be able to put a, a nice bow here.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I've learned a lot over the last year, and I still do. And there are many times that I feel actually so alive because of this heartbreak as well. Maybe it sounds a little weird.

• 52:10Esther Perel?

  In pain but alive, these two go very much together as well. Thank you so much.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Thank you too.

• 52:30Speaker 07

  This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire that could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin

• 53:15Speaker 07

  are Astaire Parel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 53:27Speaker 04

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• 54:03Speaker 09

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• 54:08Speaker 10

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 54:10Speaker 11

  Stonefire Knon is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.

• 54:14Speaker 12

  I love making non-grilled cheese. Is that guy okay? I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 54:21Speaker 10

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 54:24Speaker 13

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• 54:28Speaker 09

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