I’m Afraid of Losing More Than Just the Business

She’s watching the company she co-founded unravel—strained partnerships, family entanglements, and the weight of guilt, anger, and responsibility pulling her in every direction. Now she wants to ask Esther: how can she protect her relationship with her brothers but still free herself to move on to what’s next? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Over the last few years, workplace culture has been transformed by remote work, inconsistent in-office presence, and an intergenerational workforce. Where Should We Begin? At Work is a new game designed to transform your work culture – one story and one relationship at a time. Brought to you by Esther Perel and Culture Amp, this isn’t your typical icebreaker. It’s a new data-backed game that will help you create community at work. Details at https://game.estherperel.com/products/where-should-we-begin-at-work Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi Esther. The context of my question is that around 10 years ago, my business partner and I established a company together. That company has grown and been successful across most of that last decade, during which both of my brothers have joined and been promoted into leadership positions. Around three years ago, my relationship with my business partner deteriorated. We both had some personal issues which impacted our professional relationship. So I decided to take a step back. I've taken a non-executive role. I've explored some other really, really exciting opportunities. So whilst I retain a directorship and a shareholding, I'm no longer involved in the day-to-day running of the business. That arrangement worked really well. We had some teething problems, but the first year was pretty successful.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  But during the second year, the company has unfortunately started to fail. I believe we've had a good strategy, but the implementation's been poor and the relationships between my brothers and my business partner have also broken down at times. We're in a position now where we hope to sell, but we may well have to close the business and make the team redundant. And that's a process I'm really struggling with. Some of that's about old stories and myself. So I feel very, very responsible for my family, for my team, for my clients, for my business partner. I feel ashamed that I haven't done my job well enough to keep the business thriving and successful. But I'm also struggling a lot with a lot of sadness and some feelings of anger because I feel like I've placed trust

• 1:29Speaker 00

  in people who I care about very deeply. And I'm struggling with the fact that the business is now in the position it's in due to decisions and actions that they have taken. So my real question is, how can I best reframe my thinking to set up our relationships for the best, whatever the business outcome? My family, because I love and care about them very deeply, and my business partner, because we'll continue to know each other in a professional context. Thank you.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 2:54Speaker 02

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• 3:40Esther Perel?

  Anything you want to add or clarify?

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, the thing I thought as soon as I sent that voice note off and I thought, oh, I've ended by saying, I love my brother so much and my business partner is this guy I'm going to have to see forever, which doesn't do justice to our relationship. The fact that it's broken down now is really sad for me. I don't necessarily think it's recoverable, but he's still someone I really care about. So there is that professional side of things, but there's definitely also a sort of personal sadness about that relationship. I think since I sent the voice note, there's been one more call between the four of us, which was quite a difficult call. It's probably the most visibly angry I've ever been about the situation.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  So possibly just even thinking about it in the context of our conversation has kind of helped me engage a little bit with my emotions around it. Other than that, the situation remains as it was.

• 4:42Esther Perel?

  We can focus on you.

• 4:45Esther Perel?

  Because you have a lot of, a lot of feelings and a lot of thoughts about what has happened. And that, of course, implies your relationship with each of these people.

• 4:57Esther Perel?

  I think it's a good place to start, maybe, because I will understand also your role with your co-founder, with your brothers, with the family. I seem to have understood that there is something that you bring to the company that mirrors a kind of role that you have had in the family.

• 5:19Esther Perel?

  There's a kind of a, a superposition between the role at home and the role at work. So can we start there? Does that sound good?

• 5:29Speaker 00

  Sounds great.

• 5:30Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 5:32Esther Perel?

  So I'm gonna listen a little bit and just take in the story.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  Of course. So I'm the middle child and I'm the only girl with two brothers. Everything was very happy, I think, sort of very happy childhood, all of those kinds of things. Fantastic parents. And I love my brothers. I also really like my brothers. I would say we are.

• 5:53Esther Perel?

  As people?

• 5:54Speaker 00

  As people, yeah, as people. I would, I would be friends with them if I met them tomorrow.

• 5:59Esther Perel?

  Are they friends with each other?

• 6:01Speaker 00

  Almost all the time, apart from work. That's, I, I think it's really the only thing that's, that's got in the way. Certainly for the last twenty years, um, has been, has been work. Since, since we, since we all became grownups, we've all been good friends with each other in, in every combination. They are quite different people in, in some ways. In other ways, they've got probably similarities which. Maybe at work without me in that dynamic, they found themselves clashing in ways that when we all work together weren't such an issue.

• 6:37Esther Perel?

  But you feel a sense of responsibility.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Completely.

• 6:41Esther Perel?

  Yes, tell me, tell me more.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  Fundamentally, I think, I think maybe it's on two levels. I think at work, essentially the buck stops with me, I believe that. I'm, I'm a director of the company, I'm an owner of the company. But fundamentally, what is my job if it's not to make sure the company is successful? If the buck doesn't stop with me, what is the point? So I think that's, that feels very, very true and that feels still true regardless of the fact that I've taken that operational step back. The difficulty now is I have far less control than I used to have. I don't feel less responsible, but there's feels like far less I can do about anything, which is hard.

• 7:22Esther Perel?

  Is that a question that you have? The question being, should I go back to a more hands-on role? So that I can have, what you call control is basically the resources, the means to actually execute on my responsibility.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  Absolutely not. I would, I would, I, I would not, for my own sanity, I would not go back. Over the last maybe three to four months, I have been doing a little bit more because it was necessary. But I would not go back on a day-to-day basis. I love my work life outside of this particular issue, exactly as it is.

• 8:08Esther Perel?

  So you have a combination of I'm actually really fulfilled and excited by my new job or new career or new venture. But I need to find a way to leave and to maybe close or sell in such a way that my new excitement doesn't screw up a bunch of other people.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  Exactly that, and I think that's practical because I want to do the work that needs to be done with the company that we're talking about on a very practical level. But also emotionally, I feel so conflicted that ninety percent of my life is we're setting up a new company, we're doing this new thing, we have these new clients and that's so exciting. And then I look back and I see my brothers and the team of the other company having a pretty awful time. And I just, uh, bringing the two together feels brutal. So I find myself not talking about certain things and and not kind of sharing the good times and the excitement with them because it doesn't feel appropriate. But then, yeah, it feels like a huge conflict.

• 9:19Esther Perel?

  Conflict or betrayal?

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Oh, betrayal. Yeah, that's a good word. Yeah.

• 9:24Esther Perel?

  I mean, that, that, you seem to say, I feel like I'm betraying them by having such a good time somewhere else while their ship is sinking.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly that.

• 9:34Esther Perel?

  And, but at the same time, I'm pissed at them that the ship is sinking because it shouldn't be sinking because we were doing really well. And basically, they mismanaged, they, they, they took bad decisions or they're not as good as me or what, what is it?

• 9:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm, I'm angry and I can't say that to them because I know they are working so hard and have never not worked hard. But I'm really annoyed because I feel like I sat there in, we, we meet monthly as a board, which I sit on. And I sat there month after month saying, guys, look at the numbers, we have a problem, we have a problem, we have a problem. And I heard month after month, next month will be fine. It's, it's short, it's temporary, it's short term, it's short term. So I feel like it is not. That none of us saw this coming. We talked about it and I allowed myself to be put off and put off and put off until we find ourselves where we're at now.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  I even, before our most recent set of meetings, I went back and I read or listened to all of the notes from all of the meetings for the last year because I thought, am I going mad? Did I not say any of these things? Is this genuinely a surprise to them? And it's just there and it's infuriating.

• 10:52Esther Perel?

  And what did they, how was, how did they react when you reminded them?

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Throughout the process, they would say, oh, sure, but that was last month. This month is different. Now we've reached the point where we're at where it's undeniable where we are. I think there's a huge emotional understanding they all have of it. I think they get it. But it's difficult because what does getting it practically do? I suppose we all feel probably like we don't have time to to process the emotional impact of it because we're so busy trying to build water out of the ship that we just have to.

• 11:27Esther Perel?

  But it may not be that you let them kind of deflect. It may also be that while you saw the problem growing, you thought, I don't want to have to jump in to fix it.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Yes, that's that's probably true. I really did not want to jump in to fix it.

• 11:45Esther Perel?

  So you let them, you let it, you let them say what they said, even though you noticed, you even pointed at it, even though you told them. But then, in order for them to recognize, it would have meant for you to become more involved again. And is there a story about why you stepped out?

• 12:05Speaker 00

  There is. There's two sides to it. So one is there were other really exciting things happening and offers I was getting to go and and set up other things. And I was really excited about those and they weren't things that could be combined with the role that I was previously doing. So that door was definitely open at a point when I was actually probably a bit bored of the sort of work that that company does. So it was a good moment for me to to look at those. There is on on the sort of more negative side of the piece, there is the fact that yeah, my my relationship with my business partner had, having been a really strong business relationship,

• 12:46Speaker 00

  and I would say a really strong friendship, had started to break down. Essentially, it wasn't a good relationship for either of us. That that was about three years ago.

• 12:55Esther Perel?

  Why?

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Um.

• 12:56Esther Perel?

  I mean, why does a relationship that is so good and strong for seven years suddenly decline?

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. We it's it's all personal things, really. So I went through a divorce and he went through a very major breakup at almost exactly the same time. So whilst when basically we'd been able to previously compensate for each other, I think if if someone had a crisis or or a personal issue, the other could step in. At that time, neither of us really could, and we probably both felt that deficit. And then from my perspective, I'm sure he would want to say similar, but from my perspective, I felt some of his behaviour during that period towards me was just unacceptable. He would, you know, he would he would call me for two or three hours a day, not very sober, tell me everything

• 13:47Speaker 00

  that was wrong with the world and with me. And um that's fine for a while, but it went on for months. And I started to find that really, really difficult and sort of an imposition on on on my life, really. It was really tough. And I our relationship, we afterwards, we weren't really able to talk about it. And I don't think the relationship recovered, really.

• 14:07Esther Perel?

  Have you have you tried since? I mean, are you polite? Are you just a?

• 14:14Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, we're we're polite. I think we meet in person and we're friendly. I think ever since he's gone through that experience, I experience him as quite a different person. He'll do things like if we're having a meeting online and and the tone goes in a way he doesn't like, or the topic turns to something he doesn't like, he he will just leave the meeting and not talk to any of us for the rest of the day, for example. So it's quite difficult to engage on difficult topics. We're a fully remote workplace as well, so we don't go and sit in the office together. So we we've tried, we've we've gone out for drinks together and and and we are friendly and professional when we meet in person. But starting that conversation has proved really difficult.

• 14:56Esther Perel?

  And what would he say if I asked him what led to the deterioration of your relationship, of this friendship, of this partnership?

• 15:06Speaker 00

  I think he would acknowledge the bad behaviour. Doesn't typically have a problem saying, yes, I behaved badly. I just think he doesn't necessarily feel particularly guilty or like he needs to change when he behaves badly. I think he would acknowledge that. I think he would say, and he would be ninety-nine percent right, he would say, she got tempted off by the new shiny thing. She was bored of the work that we were doing together. She just left us. And I left over the course of a year. I didn't walk out suddenly. But, you know, I think he would say that she she got bored, she got tempted, she left. It's fine.

• 15:43Esther Perel?

  So that's the main reason she left. She didn't leave because our relationship deteriorated.

• 15:48Speaker 00

  I think he would understand it that way, yeah.

• 15:51Esther Perel?

  Yeah, and it's not, there's truth to it.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  There is absolutely truth to it. I would I would say it's about fifty fifty, personally.

• 15:59Esther Perel?

  So if I hear you well, there's something in your request that is, how do I do what I want?

• 16:08Esther Perel?

  And not feel guilty about the effect that what my wanting has on others?

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, that's that's.

• 16:17Esther Perel?

  This is, this is.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  That's pretty accurate.

• 16:19Esther Perel?

  Right? I mean, company nevertheless, but basically, if the company went well, then you would feel less guilty. And you would just say, I went to do what I care about now. But I left them in a good situation and they're thriving. And so, you know, I don't feel that bad because they're doing well. But now that this is not happening so smoothly, I sit with this duality that I want to do what I want, and that's not new. And I want to be liked.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm, yes, I like being liked.

• 16:56Esther Perel?

  Yes, of course. So do I, by the way. It's not such an unusual thing. But it's very difficult to want to do what you want on a regular basis and to still hope that people will continue to like you.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:12Esther Perel?

  You know, usually, it's like two different realities may need to coexist. You may want to do what you want to do, and other people are entitled to their reactions. You're entitled to do that, and so are they. And those two things can coexist.

• 17:33Esther Perel?

  So rather than wanting the other people to accept why you chose what you chose, as if it has no effect on them.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  That makes sense. I think I felt absolutely, like I say, we had some teething problems, but they were normal, I think, for the scale of transition that we were making in that first year. But until the business started to have its current problems, I felt no guilt because I thought this is a win-win-win. You know, I get to do what I want to do.

• 18:02Esther Perel?

  Yep.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  And everyone else gets to run the company how they want to run the company. We're set up. We're successful. It's a small company. It's always scrappy. It's always risk-taking. But fundamentally, we're set up for success. We have a track record of success. I felt no guilt at all. And now I feel really guilty because I get to keep doing what I want to do, and they don't.

• 18:29Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us. And let's see where this goes.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to Forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  Support for today's episode comes from Delta, official airline of the National Women's Soccer League. Traveling is basically magic. It creates opportunities, it fosters understanding, it expands horizons, it connects people and communities to each other and to their own potential. Those are the values that drive Delta. With up to 5,500 daily Delta and Delta Connection flights to more than 300 destinations on six continents, Delta is committed to helping you explore your world. Whatever gives you the travel bug, Delta is here to help you get there. Visit delta.com for more info. Delta, wherever the journey takes you.

• 20:14Speaker 05

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• 20:54Esther Perel?

  So, since I don't think this is the first time you have this conflict, in life, I would say, how have you dealt with it at other times? What have been ways that you have been able to integrate this tension?

• 21:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. The example that springs to my mind first, which is completely in my personal life, but is is probably when I did get divorced. My ex-husband didn't want to, I did. And I never drawn this equivalence before at all, but it makes complete sense. And you know, essentially I was like, well, you can't stay married without me. Um, so, so off I go.

• 21:38Esther Perel?

  And your ex-husband had similar thoughts and feelings as your co-founder?

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Um.

• 21:44Esther Perel?

  Even though totally different reality?

• 21:47Speaker 00

  I think my ex-husband was just really confused.

• 21:51Esther Perel?

  Blindsided.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, yeah, exactly. And likewise, I think would acknowledge that there are ways in which he behaved badly, but would say fundamentally, you went off to find something new, didn't you?

• 22:03Esther Perel?

  Yes, you were bored and you went to the next shiny thing.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly the same, yeah. Um, so how did I, I suppose, how did I navigate that? Firstly, the next shiny thing is really good, so you can lose yourself in that. That's probably not the, not the healthiest mechanism in the world, but, but fundamentally, going off to do that, new shiny things are great. But otherwise.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  I suppose I sort of, I sort of looked at it as a. Again, it's a slightly dramatic way to put it, but it's like, you're sort of like born alone and you die alone. And fundamentally, sometimes you have to make the decisions that are right for you. And you cannot carry everyone else's weight.

• 22:45Esther Perel?

  Did you feel bad for hurting him?

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 22:52Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Yes, of course, I felt horrible.

• 22:56Esther Perel?

  It's okay, you know, it's, those two can coexist too. I am gonna leave, I've made up my mind, I don't wanna be here. And I feel really bad about hurting you, leaving you.

• 23:10Esther Perel?

  In some sense betraying you. And again, I hope you will be well because if you are well, it lessens the guilt, the burden, the responsibility. But it's an important thing to be able to continue to have empathy and awareness of the reactions that people have about your decisions while at the same time making your decisions. What sometimes happens is that in the in the name of wanting to do what we want, we cut ourselves off of how it affects others so that we can maintain our oomph. So we can stay the course and proceed with the decision.

• 23:55Esther Perel?

  As if if we actually looked to the side for a moment and saw what effect it has on others, we won't have the guts or the strength or the confidence to actually pull through with it.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can completely see it. I'm quite good at once the once the decision's made.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  As in both cases, so when my husband and I broke up and with the business now about thinking about going back into that to that day to day. I can just tell that both are just an absolute no for me. I think because I don't get sort of tempted back to revisit my decision and that kind of thing. I hope I am able to sort of look those other emotions in the face and go, okay, I'm going to do this anyway, but I still have all of this this awareness. I suppose the difficulty I think that I'm facing now and the difference with those scenarios is I see my ex husband at two weddings and a christening every year and not the rest of the time. Whereas I have to be so careful in this

• 25:00Speaker 00

  position because this is my whole family.

• 25:04Speaker 00

  If I don't get this right, it's my whole family.

• 25:07Esther Perel?

  So that's that's the stakes this time.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:11Esther Perel?

  Is that you can't have a leaving that basically has these people exit your life. This this leaving is a partial leaving and your brother stay in your life. Your co-founder is maybe a different story. So what's the conversation between you and your brothers?

• 25:31Speaker 00

  Um, I think there was a real breaking point, turning point rather, about three months ago, something like that, where I think we'd always spoken in terms of, you know, how can we save the business, what can we do to change things? In a way, we'd sort of never really allowed for the idea of failure. Would not really discussed it. And we were able to have a meeting between the four of us, as I say, about three months ago, where we just said, look, this is the position that we're in, and we have to talk about it in these terms now, because if not, what we're going to do is enormously let down our clients and our team by heading into a catastrophe, which is unplanned. We have to plan for it. That was a really good conversation.

• 26:15Esther Perel?

  Who led it?

• 26:17Speaker 00

  I did the pivot, because I essentially said, look, I can't do this. If we can't look this truth in the face, I can't have this conversation anymore. And once we turned that corner, everyone engaged fantastically in that conversation.

• 26:33Esther Perel?

  But this is what you said, and where were they?

• 26:37Speaker 00

  One of my brothers had found it really, really difficult to consider the possibility previously. He would very explicitly say, look, I can't think about failure, because if I think about that, then I, I will just really fall off a cliff. I cannot be in the mindset for that, so I just can't look at it. That's where he was. And then my other brother, who's maybe, I don't know, a little bit more of a sort of, he likes, he likes to look a problem in the face as a guard against it. He takes that approach, so maybe he's considered a bit more negative about it. Uh, so I think he found it a sort of easier transition to go through. So they came from two quite different places.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  But I think we're now more aligned than we have been for a year, between the three of us at least.

• 27:26Esther Perel?

  It's interesting that when you have a kind of a family business, you name the people by their family tie. My brothers, my brother one, my brother two. If you were not a family business, you would be saying, my operation person, my finance person, my marketing person, they would be identified by their role, not just by their family tie.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:56Esther Perel?

  Would that change it for you?

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Um.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Yes, because I think if I used that language, I would find it easier, probably both inwardly and outwardly, to hold them to account in a professional way. Whereas probably what I've done is not held them to account sufficiently in that way. And therefore, we find ourselves in a worse position than we would have been. But I think by by keeping it too personal, I probably haven't done the best professional job I could do.

• 28:36Esther Perel?

  You have known that? Or this is new insight? I I tend to agree with you.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  I've thought before that I should have done a better job around accountability. It's it's one of the things that I feel embarrassed about, ashamed about. I've never linked it to the the language before. That's a really new insight for me and that makes total sense.

• 28:58Esther Perel?

  I mean, the language defines emphasizes the relationship. And we have a different relational expectation. And business, actually, we have a different business expectation because of the nature of the relationship. And if you constantly emphasize the family tie and the loyalty and the middle child and the desire to have your brother stay in good terms with you, there's a good chance that that will influence expectations around accountability.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  I definitely, I think I would, two two sentences. So if I say, oh, my my brother's working really hard. They're just not performing the role so well at the moment, for example. I find it very easy to let them off the hook. Whereas I would never, in in one of my other companies, I would never say, oh, my marketing director is working really hard. So even though it's not working, it's okay. I would I would never say that. That sounds crazy to me. But I would absolutely and and have done it the other way around. The intention is good and the work is hard, but the quality is not there sometimes. Makes no sense without the familial tie.

• 30:12Esther Perel?

  I mean, this is not said so that you can take a hammer and start banging on yourself.

• 30:20Esther Perel?

  Right, don't turn insight into instant criticism.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  No, I know, and I understand that. That is a tendency I definitely have. I will try not to.

• 30:31Esther Perel?

  It's hard to sit with. It's like, whoa, you know, because that's not what I would have done. But it's very good food for thought, and it's a lot of good information for the future. Because I'm assuming you're trying to think how they could continue with you in the next venture.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  Definitely not the next one.

• 30:52Esther Perel?

  But you feel like you need to help them find the next place to land?

• 30:56Speaker 00

  I feel absolutely I would continue to have professional relationships with them and work with them, definitely. I don't want to work in the same way again, because right now the stakes feel so high. In a way, I recognize as extremely patronizing, I think, oh, it's my responsibility to make sure that they both land on their feet and get the right jobs.

• 31:18Esther Perel?

  Why? Why? Why do you... Because the more you tell me that, it implies, and that's a subtle thing, that you actually don't think they're capable. And therefore, you need to boost them in one way or another, or lessen your expectations, or not demand the same level of accountability. And now I need to understand that. A, you don't really, and I don't know if it's a day or one more than the other, or it's a package deal.

• 31:52Esther Perel?

  Is there a message you were given that you need to...

• 32:01Speaker 00

  I don't think so.

• 32:03Esther Perel?

  That you're not allowed to succeed beyond them by yourself, and that this has to be a triad?

• 32:10Speaker 00

  No, no, definitely not. I think I'm, I was at a younger age, the most academically successful one. One of my brothers is is now definitely in advance of me on that, but sort of age for age equivalence. And that was celebrated by everyone, including them, which was fantastic. I think, I try to get to the bottom of it. And I I think it's it's difficult for me because I know it's, you know, I just said, you know, it feels really patronizing. When I look it in the face, I I think, I don't, they're both adult men who are incredibly capable, competent, clever, hardworking human beings. They do not need me to solve their problems. They absolutely don't.

• 32:53Esther Perel?

  Do you really believe that? Because the patronizing part of you doesn't believe that.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  I think it's probably doesn't predate working together. I think working together in this business, when I, when I set the business up, I'd been working in this sector for a while. They were both new to both the sector and to sort of start up life and all of those things. And I'd done all of those things. And so I think when they first joined, we probably ended up in this position of not, I know everything, but I know more than you. I know more about the sector. I know more about the company. I know more about how to do this. And therefore, you know, it's my job to be that sort of guide. And then we've had that period where actually, you know, it's fantastic and they've both

• 33:43Speaker 00

  got specialisms I have no idea about and I love that. But I probably just have never left behind that whole like, hey, you know, newbies, I want to make sure you have a fantastic experience here. And and you grow and you learn all that you want to. And that's my job, which maybe seven years ago, it was my job. It's not my job now. And they don't need me to do it. They really don't. I think it's, I think it's that probably, it probably doesn't predate our professional lives.

• 34:14Speaker 06

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• 36:06Esther Perel?

  Are the parents involved in this story?

• 36:08Speaker 00

  They are, probably to the extent that

• 36:15Speaker 00

  they're very good. Whenever any of us talk to them about work, the others never hear of what they say. So they're pretty, yeah.

• 36:21Esther Perel?

  Great.

• 36:21Speaker 00

  They're good sort of secret keepers. They're not gossipy, which is perfect.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  I find it currently very difficult to speak with them about the situation, not because I don't trust them, but because it feels too difficult to. It feels like I would end up.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Blaming or being very embarrassed or.

• 36:42Esther Perel?

  But difficult means I worried that I would either be blaming my brothers or blaming myself.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly that.

• 36:52Esther Perel?

  It's either anger or shame.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I I find it very difficult to talk about this entire situation without one of those things. Unless I'm in complete professional, let's get things done.

• 37:04Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 37:04Speaker 00

  Mode. I have no middle ground right now.

• 37:06Esther Perel?

  I get it. And you came to me for the underground.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:11Esther Perel?

  Not for the middle ground.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 37:15Esther Perel?

  Yeah, because you see what happens is you have a particular situation and all these reactions and feelings and behaviors come up. But then, when you look at them, you begin to notice how they reflect similar behaviors in completely different situations. It's like you get a bit of a a Rorschach of your coping strategies.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 37:40Esther Perel?

  Of your style of dealing with these kind of situations.

• 37:45Esther Perel?

  Something I try to do where I depend on other people. I typically am not somebody who so easily depends on other people. I go out myself. And if it doesn't work, then I'm stuck between the what they did wrong versus what I did wrong or vice versa. I did wrong and I blame myself. Suddenly, it gets decontextualized and it becomes highly personalized. And it's no longer about startup world and this and that. It's about them, mostly my brothers and my co-founder or me. One of us sank the ship.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:27Esther Perel?

  You know?

• 38:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:28Esther Perel?

  And it's not about responsibility as much as about blame.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  It feels like that now. Yeah.

• 38:35Esther Perel?

  But that is not the only time you've done it this way. When you come with such a set structure, usually I think, you know, this is part of your own relationship resume. This form has already existed in other situations as well.

• 38:53Esther Perel?

  It also accompanies people who live with a very strong sense of responsibility.

• 39:00Esther Perel?

  And personalize. If it goes well, it's me. But if it doesn't go well, it's also me. There are other people, when it goes well, it's me. And when it doesn't go well, it's others, you know.

• 39:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:13Esther Perel?

  So. We can do the same as you did with the divorce. What do you recognize in the somebody must be at fault? And I vacillate back and forth. Sometimes I think it's me. And what I didn't do and how. And then I went back to listen just to make sure that I really had warned them. The signs are out there. The company is not performing well. But part of me feels that if I had really taken this seriously, I should have gone back to fix it. But I didn't want to. And so I saw them and they didn't do it either. And here we are.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I really didn't want to.

• 40:00Esther Perel?

  You don't. I am very clear on that.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Um, I.

• 40:08Esther Perel?

  But it's very important piece. Because that really didn't really want to. It's like I rang the alarm.

• 40:17Esther Perel?

  But I didn't ring it that intensely. Because I knew that if I really followed the thread, it will land with I have to step back in here. Because there's something I know that can actually fix this, or so I think.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:32Esther Perel?

  But I didn't want to do it. So I thought, let them do it. But part of me knew they can't do it.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think a lot of, a lot of what you've just said really, really resonates. The, the piece about helping. No, I, I like, I like to help people. I don't like to, I don't, I don't like to get help. I like to be independent. Um, I like, I like all of those things. And for me, it's, it's part of the same. It's part of the same story. I suppose. It sounds really self-aggrandizing, but I look back and I think there are very few things that I couldn't make right. But if I tried hard enough and I brought my energy to bear, there are

• 41:21Speaker 00

  a few, and yeah, I might be about to have the first one, but you know, sort of few major failures that I've gone through and

• 41:31Speaker 00

  realistically, my sense is it's probably cumulative. So I've gone, okay, we had this issue and I've been able to fix that through working insanely hard or whatever. And we've had this issue and I've been able to solve this and this issue and I've been able to solve this. And probably what I have ended up with is an enormously swollen head about the kind of problems that are personally solvable by me. Um, and actually, life was always going to run me up against something which, which wasn't personally solvable by me. In our case, market conditions have changed and those, those external factors are true.

• 42:15Speaker 00

  They're absolutely true. There came a point during a previous meeting where I just said, I don't want to hear about the market again. What a stupid thing to say. On reflection, of course, we have to think about the market, but I'm trying to think, where, where does it come from? Kind of like, what's the oldest story I can think of?

• 42:31Esther Perel?

  Or not that old.

• 42:35Esther Perel?

  Shall I give you a clue?

• 42:37Speaker 00

  Please.

• 42:39Esther Perel?

  I have no idea if it's a good one, but it's the one that popped into, into my head. I think I could fix this problem, but I don't want to. And so I get mad at you for not being capable to do so. And you not being able to do so then puts me in a position where I feel guilty, bad, that I am not doing something that I know I could do because I don't want to.

• 43:11Esther Perel?

  And so I enter into a tension between what I should and what I want.

• 43:18Esther Perel?

  Why can't you do the thing that I don't want to do?

• 43:24Esther Perel?

  If you did it, I would be fine. But if you don't, then the wanting gets into conflict with the should.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  I fear we may be back on my poor ex-husband again.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  For that, because that.

• 43:40Esther Perel?

  You may need to go and have a closer conversation with your.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  And an apology to him, I, yeah, no, indeed. Um, I, I think it's a.

• 43:50Esther Perel?

  And tell it to me if you can. With insight and not with a bat.

• 44:01Esther Perel?

  You're harsh, you're hard on yourself. Which is part of what prevents you from thinking sometimes.

• 44:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:09Esther Perel?

  And from having the awareness and the insight, because when you do, it so instantly morphs into criticism and a bat that you just don't want to do it. You don't want to continue the thought. So I know something just clicked. Let's just explore it together.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  I probably

• 44:34Speaker 00

  realized that I didn't want to be married

• 44:40Speaker 00

  really early.

• 44:43Esther Perel?

  To him.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  To him, to him. And once I'd got through a period of.

• 44:53Esther Perel?

  What is really early, by the way?

• 44:54Speaker 00

  Within the first year.

• 44:56Esther Perel?

  Okay, it's not uncommon.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  So

• 45:02Speaker 00

  after I'd sort of worked up the courage to look that in the face, which I'm very glad I did, on, on the note of, of not being too harsh with myself, I think that was, it was, I did it quite quickly, it felt quite brave. But then I had that, something really resonated in what you said of that kind of, if only you could do this, then I could realize that I do want to be married. And then all of our problems will be solved that you aren't aware exist yet. You know, if, if only, if only you could be this, or you could do this, or you could.

• 45:39Esther Perel?

  What kind of this? Give me a couple of examples of.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  There was some stuff around his drinking, for example, which I didn't love, but was realistically well within the kind of, you know, sort of realms of toleration. There were, I'm just, and again, quite early, just things that annoyed me, just sort of bits of snobbishness and pomposity, which realistically, we'd been together for years by then. I should have worked it out earlier, or I felt like I should have worked it out earlier. So I felt very guilty about sort of setting these. Um, you know, he, he must have been really confused because suddenly things that he'd been doing for years, I could not live with anymore.

• 46:27Esther Perel?

  Really.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  And I would say, you know, just, you know, if you could just do this. And I would feel awful about asking because I knew it was unreasonable and I knew it was absolutely about me and not about him. I'd changed, he hadn't changed.

• 46:41Esther Perel?

  But I was picking. Yeah, but I was picking, right? Everything became source of irritation.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Exactly, but it's fundamentally, I wanted out and I'd had the bravery to look that in the face and I hadn't had the bravery to, to do it. And again, trying to be kind to myself. I also think I, part of that was about compassion and thinking, no, I have to, I have to try. I think at the same time I was picking, I was also trying to, you know, to do better and, and to be better. But, um, we, we went to one session of marriage counselling and the therapist said in the session, she was like, there is basically no point you being here because you do not want to be in this marriage. She was more professional about it than that, but, but fundamentally, she said, look, there's not much of a conversation to have here. And that was, you know, Penny sort of clicked for me.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  I thought, you know what, that's true and it's actually not kind of me to keep doing this. This is not a good life for him. This is not a good life for me. I'm not being kind here. We just have to move on, which we did very quickly after that.

• 47:44Esther Perel?

  So the conversation that I imagine needs to happen with your brothers is not about the company and not about the market.

• 47:55Esther Perel?

  It's a conversation about the family ties.

• 48:00Esther Perel?

  And it may be with both of them at the same time. Or if you don't call them as brothers, then you probably won't have them one on one.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:09Esther Perel?

  If they were named by their role, you wouldn't bundle them.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:14Esther Perel?

  But in this instance, it is a family tie conversation as much as a company conversation. But the company conversation you have, it's really the family tie.

• 48:25Esther Perel?

  I realize this is challenging for you. What have you been thinking? Where do you see yourself go from here? Is there something that about our relationship that is affected by the company changes? Either we sell or we need to close. And it's a relationship conversation.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  As we've been speaking now, I've I've just realized I don't think I've ever said to them explicitly what I said in my very first question in the voice note to you, which is just I I want to come out of this as we'll always love each other. I want to come out of this as as good friends as we are now. And that's not to say that there won't be emotional responses. Of course there will. I appreciate it might be a really bumpy time, but fundamentally, my biggest priority is to to come out of this with these relationships intact from all of us being able to to do that. And I think I've never said that that explicitly to them. It feels like maybe a start.

• 49:24Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, very much so. Do you think they even think that they know that? Or they think you're selfish?

• 49:32Speaker 00

  I hope they know that. I think that may coexist with thinking I'm selfish. That's and that's that's fine, but I hope they know it.

• 49:39Esther Perel?

  Okay. So this is you have a great place to start. You have a great place to start. You matter to me dearly. Companies come and go. You are my brothers for life. And we're going to go through a difficult transition. What do we need to do as brothers and sisters for us to come through this? So it's not just an I, it's a we. How do we stay together? We maintain our bond. We each have our own feelings about what we're going through. We don't have to be in unison. This is not a choir. But at the same time, we have a unified goal, which is to maintain.

• 50:23Esther Perel?

  Do we have this unified goal? It's definitely mine.

• 50:29Esther Perel?

  And what do we need for that? What do each of us need? Because you may have needs from them too. It's not just them from you. I'm sorry, you may have to actually ask for something.

• 50:40Speaker 00

  Don't make me.

• 50:42Esther Perel?

  Just did.

• 50:45Speaker 00

  No, I love that as a question. I love that as an introduction. That doesn't feel like.

• 50:51Esther Perel?

  It's not scary.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  That feels easy.

• 50:52Esther Perel?

  Yes, it's not scary. It's exactly, and the fact that you instantly connected it to the voice question is perfect. It's the dots that needed to be connected. Because you're not going to talk about failure. You're going to talk about the persistence and the perseverance of the bond that exists between the three of you. That's the most important piece.

• 51:15Speaker 00

  It's the most important thing.

• 51:16Esther Perel?

  And then potentially what they each will do or how they see themselves, you know, go from here. And the fact that it's not just a failure either. All three.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:28Esther Perel?

  Is that a good place for you to pick up?

• 51:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a great place. That's a great next step. Thank you so, so much.

• 51:35Esther Perel?

  Your pleasure. Bye bye.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  Thanks. Bye bye.

• 51:46Speaker 06

  This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?

• 52:31Speaker 06

  Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 53:27Speaker 05

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