Andrew Morgan On The True Cost Of Fast Fashion: The Ethical & Environmental Price of Clothing

When I was a kid, shopping for new clothes was a treat. A special, infrequent occasion. Why? because even inexpensive garments challenged our middle-class family budget. By comparison, the mega-conglomerate retailers of today — Target, H&M, Gap, fill in the blank — allow the average, penny-pinching consumer to fill a closet for a $100 or less. How and when did clothing become an essentially disposable product? What exactly is going on? The answers to these questions will shock you. Andrew Morgan is the young, talented filmmaker behind the beautiful and heartbreaking documentary The True Cost. Premiering at last year's Cannes Film Festival, it's a movie about the untold story of fashion. It's about the clothes we wear, the people who make them, and the impact the garment industry is having on the world we share. The film centers around the human rights and environmental implications of fast fashion — a term used to describe the increasingly rapid pace at which fashion houses push new trends at deflated prices made possible by global market ascendency and the comprehensive export of almost all manufacturing to the developing world. As a result, designer lines and trends once seasonal now move from factory to store shelves in a matter of mere weeks at a fraction of historical prices. It goes like this: prime the latent pump of consumer desire with hypnotic marketing campaigns featuring lithe models draped in the latest and greatist. Throw kerosene on the addictive must-have impulse with impossibly low prices. Obscure production transparency by shipping manufacturing to a far corner of the world. Then, before anyone discovers the product's troubling genesis and poor quality, light a match, sit back and watch the shopping frenzy ensue. Repeat to the tune of $3 trillion annually. There's only one problem — cheap is actually expensive. Because we're ignoring the true cost. Any accurate accounting of fast fashion must include the priceless expense of systemic and severe worker exploitation rife across the developing world. It must take into consideration the incalculable environmental damage caused by its very processes of manufacturing. And it must contemplate the mistreatment and slaughter of billions of animals. Without a doubt, fast fashion is an extremely expensive, unmitigated free market failure. But Andrew isn't interested in the good-guy-bad-guy narrative. He sees no purpose in shaming anyone nor pointing fingers. Andrew's wish for us is simple: Ask better questions. Demand better solutions. Do I really need this? Who made this and how? What exactly went into this getting from wherever to here? In other words, what is the true cost of our daily and often subconsciously or unconsciously motivated consumer choices? I was quite impacted by Andrew's stirring film; moved by this wise and thoughtful young man's commitment to positively impacting the world. As such, it is my honor to share his important message with you today. This is a conversation about the inextricable connectivity that unites us all. It's about our collective responsibility to be informed and to act. It's about conscious capitalism over mindless consumption. And it's about how every single day, every single one of us can make a tangible, positive difference in the world. Because in the words of Andrew, the greatest lie of all is that you can't contribute. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:29Rich Roll?

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• 1:48Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that we're all living at a really special moment in history. And I think we have the ability to look at the impact we're having on the world, and we have the ability to be a part of the kind of world we want to have, or to be a part of the destruction that we say we're against.

• 2:08Rich Roll?

  That's filmmaker Andrew Morgan, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:23Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:27Rich Roll?

  Greetings, everybody. Welcome. My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, the show where each week I sit down with all kinds of wildly inspiring and provocative personalities across a wide spectrum of topics that all sort of pivot on this theme of positive living, this theme of connecting with, accessing, unlocking, and ultimately, fully expressing your best, most authentic self. So I have a really great show for you guys today. Very excited about it. And I thought I would kick it off with a little anecdote, a little story that ends with a question. So when I was young, I turned 50 this year, so I'm dating myself, but when I was young, going shopping for new clothes

• 3:09Rich Roll?

  was like a treat. It was special. It was infrequent. Maybe you did it back to school in the fall, or perhaps one time before summer starts. But today, it seems like this is something that goes on every weekend, 52 weeks out of the year. Go to any mall, and it's almost like stores are giving this stuff away. You can get jeans for $10. You can get t-shirts for $4. You can literally fill a closet in certain stores for under $100. Everything is so incredibly cheap, all of a sudden. And you can't help but wonder, how is this possible? I mean, what exactly is going on here? So today, we're going to

• 3:51Rich Roll?

  unpack this issue, and I really think that it's going to blow your mind. Today's guest is Andrew Morgan. He is the young filmmaker behind a beautiful and heartbreaking, and dare I say, important, quote marks, documentary entitled The True Cost. It premiered at Cannes, and it's a film about clothing. It's about the clothes we wear. It's about the people who make them, and the impact that this industry, the fashion industry, is having on our world. And I've got a whole bunch of things, all kinds of things, important foundational things I want to say about Andrew and his movie before we get into the interview. But first...

• 4:37Rich Roll?

  So today, we're going to pull back the curtain on what is really the untold story of fashion, and we're going to do that through my conversation with Andrew and a discussion about his new movie, The True Cost, which zeroes in on the profound ramifications of our addiction to something called "fast fashion." Fast fashion is the sort of industry term used to describe the increasingly rapid pace at which fashion houses push new trends at deflated prices with one singular goal: the goal of getting consumers to buy as many garments as possible as frequently as possible, to really prime the addiction pump of more, more, more, and the resulting low-quality,

• 5:20Rich Roll?

  high-volume escalation of the manufacturing and distribution of incredibly inexpensive, cheaply-made, and essentially disposable clothing. So, simply put, the explosion of fast fashion and its intersection with the rise of the global economy and global supply chain has resulted in this $3 trillion industry that is nonetheless, and really quite grimly, responsible for the severe exploitation of workers across the world: human rights violations galore, untold, profound, and perhaps, in some cases irreversible, environmental calamities, and of course, it goes without saying, the horrible abuse and slaughter of, you know, billions of animals.

• 6:02Rich Roll?

  That being said, The True Cost really isn't a good-guy, bad-guy, expose narrative; rather, it's a very well-considered and sensitized and human look at what is really going on. Not for the purpose of shaming others or pointing fingers, but really to help all of us ask ourselves better questions, questions like, "Do I really need this? Who made this, and how was it made? What exactly went into this thing getting from, you know, wherever to here?" In other words, what is the true cost of our daily, often subconsciously or unconsciously motivated, consumer choices?

• 6:43Rich Roll?

  So these are subjects I have delved into in the past on this show, most notably with men's fashionware entrepreneur and Parsons School of Design Professor Joshua Katcher. We did that interview back in March of 2015, I think, RRP 135, 100 episodes ago. So if you enjoyed that conversation, which I know you did because Joshua is amazing, then I think you'll really dig this. In any event, Andrew is just an incredibly thoughtful, articulate, and passionate young guy. Amazingly, the father of four kids. I don't know how he's done that at his age. He's very young. And he's just really committed to doing great work that makes a difference. And how cool is that? He made a beautifully photographed and quite stirring movie. I really suggest everybody check it out.

• 7:28Rich Roll?

  It's streaming on Netflix and you can find that in most global territories. Alternatively, it's available on iTunes, Amazon, and at TrueCostMovie.com anywhere in the world. So it was a real treat to go deep with Andrew on this subject, and I think it's a subject that we all need to be thinking about and talking about and acting on more intently. So with that said, should we talk to Andrew now? Let's talk to Andrew. Thanks so much for coming up to the house, man. It's great to be here. Yeah, I really appreciate you making the journey up to the hinterlands and super excited to talk to you today.

• 8:13Rich Roll?

  Really impacted by your movie. And just as a little bit of kind of backdrop, I think it was a couple months ago that you had the screening at Industry of All Nations. I couldn't go, unfortunately. Sorry about that. I can't remember what I was doing, but I had some kind of conflict. And Julie went and she came back from that evening just so moved and impacted by not only your movie, but your presentation. And there were some other folks there too, right? Was Vandana Shiva there and maybe, I don't know, one or two other people. Just a couple from Patagonia there as well, didn't I? Right, right, right. And she was just... Out of her mind and she's like, "You gotta watch this movie. This is so incredible. You gotta get Andrew on the podcast." And so, of course, I immediately watched it and it really is quite

• 8:57Rich Roll?

  a magnificent work. So, congrats on that and I'm looking forward to getting into it. But I think it's fair to say, just at the outset, that although, of course, it is about fashion and in particular, fast fashion, it's really, it's really a documentary about so much more than that. It's about consumerism. It's about, you know, the globalization of capitalism. It's about marketing. It's about, you know, how we behave as human beings. It's about psychology. It's about human rights. It's about the environment. Like, you're tackling a lot. You bit off a lot in this movie, but you handled it masterfully and beautifully and it's incredibly impactful.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. That means a lot.

• 9:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so, let's unpack it a little bit. Why don't you just sort of explain what the movie is about and we can kind of go from there.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the film is about the impact of clothing on both people and the planet. And I had never, you know, ever in my life, really stopped to think about where my clothes came from. And I had this experience a couple of years ago when I was getting coffee one morning and I looked down at the cover of the New York Times and there was this photograph of these two boys that were ironically similar in ages to my own two boys at home. And these two boys were standing in front of this huge wall of missing persons signs. And I picked up the paper and read about this clothing factory collapse just outside of Dhaka, Bangladesh, and read that at the time of the collapse, it was making, you know, clothing for major Western brands. And it listed some of the brands. They were brands that I knew and had

• 10:34Speaker 01

  frequented. And, you know, the estimates started in the hundreds. It then crossed over a thousand people that had lost their lives in this, you know, horrific incident. And what I remember standing there, thinking about that morning was, you know, first, how is it possible that an industry this powerful and profitable could be doing business in a way that was leading to this kind of loss and lessening of life? And as I read in the article multiple times over, these incidents were not rare. And then, on a really personal level, I just remember thinking, "How is it possible? I've never thought about where my clothes come from." And that just kind of opened this door. And asked some really profound questions that I had never asked before.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  And led us into a journey that took us around the world. Into the lives of people working in different parts of these supply chains. And also really, you know, looking at the unmeasured impact to natural resources. And the environment, all stemming from something as simple as the clothes we wear.

• 11:38Rich Roll?

  Right. It's, it's, uh, it's very interesting. Because clothes are something that we all need, right? So you can't just say, "Well, I'm not going to participate in this business whatsoever." We all have to, you know.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  It's encouraged, yeah.

• 11:52Rich Roll?

  And there are so many analogies to the food system. Like, I couldn't help but think throughout the movie, like, oh, that's very similar with Big Food. And the way Big Food operates, like, a lot of parallels and overlap in that kind of Venn diagram. Because we all have to eat food as well. And the movie really forces us as, as not only audience members, but as consumers. To think more deeply about the choices that we make. And the impact, you know, throughout, all the way down that supply chain. That those decisions have on, you know, not just ourselves, but, you know, the world at large.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that was my experience making the film. Was that it went from being a film about clothing to really a film about understanding. My place in the world and the connection between my choices and people's lives. Or the well-being of this planet. And that sounds really grandiose, but I think at the heart of the, the film is this. We're really attacking a narrative that's been told and sold to us to see ourselves as first and foremost, consumers. And the more I looked at the world, and then, you know, we traveled and we're in all these. We, we, you know, saw all sorts of toxic, terrible things. But at the heart of it was, the most dangerous thing really kept coming back to this story.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Where people living, especially in the developed world, have been taught to see themselves. As just sort of bystanders, you know, as, as, as consumer. I mean, the word consumer is like, my value is just to be someone who takes in stuff. And it's. Sort of safely divorces me from the impact of those choices. And it's one of those things, and I hope people get this experience in the film. My, my experience making it was like, it's one of those things where when you pull back one layer of that story, it starts to erode. And what it opens up is a far more meaningful invitation to be a part of something bigger in the world. And that sounds huge when I'm just talking about clothing, but it, it, I think is one

• 13:53Speaker 01

  of the primary gateways to the world around us.

• 13:57Rich Roll?

  Well, clothing speaks to identity in a really profound way. And, you know, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to be fashionable or express yourself through the clothing that you wear. I mean, that's a very human thing to do. It's very personal, it's very emotional. But this idea of this, this journey really that you went on, which kind of sounds like the narrative from The Matrix. It's like you, you start out as this battery, you know, where you're empowering, empowering this system, just stepping outside of it and getting a broader perspective on how it all functions. And, you know, sort of the revelations that, that come with that are, are powerful.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Well, and there is, I mean, as you say, one of the things that we were careful to do in the film is not to demonize fashion. You know, fashion is a creative art form. I mean, it's a, yeah, it's self-expression, it's heritage and history and culture. It's just recently been swallowed up by a, a very big business version of something that's intrinsically beautiful. And I think that's, that's the part that I'm, I'm really focused on. That's the part that's brought with it, you know, just a whole lot of unseen negative impacts.

• 15:06Rich Roll?

  Well, I think it, it would be good to kind of break down this evolution of the fashion industry since 1960, because it's really exploded and morphed and changed in a, in a, in a way that has, you know, impacted not only the environment and the economy, but human rights in, in a palpable way.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, you know, like all things in history, it's a combination of a lot of factors. But if you go back to 1960, we were still making, in this country, the United States, we were still making more than 97% of our clothing here, you know, in America. Fast forward to today, that number is less than 2%. So what you've seen-

• 15:40Rich Roll?

  That's just like-

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 15:42Rich Roll?

  Hold on a second.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 15:43Rich Roll?

  Insane, 97 to 2%.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  It's really been the flagship of globalized production and globalization as a whole, you know, and it has, you know, that level of outsourcing has made way for it to become a deflationary product, which is one of the only things in the global marketplace that's gotten cheaper over time. And, you know, as, when I began to look at this, I kind of began to ask those questions like, okay, but raw materials haven't gotten cheaper and transportation hasn't gotten by and large cheaper. And what you quickly begin to see is that human labor is a point in the process where you can squeeze, and so is externalizing the polluting and environmental impact.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  So we give birth to this thing called fast fashion, which is just this acceleration of production, cheap, low-level production, and on our end of the spectrum, consumption. You know, we, as a world, consume more than 400% more clothing than we did two decades ago.

• 16:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  And that's, I mean, you think about that, and it's, you begin to ask, you know, the next set of questions, where does it go? You know, where, what happens when we don't hold, you know, all of those things kind of kept propelling the story forward.

• 17:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you follow all those threads, you know, throughout the movie. But it is insane, I mean, I'm a little bit older than you, but, you know, I remember as a kid, like, if you were gonna go get a new pair of sneakers or a shirt, it was like, it wasn't a big deal, but it was like, okay, like, this is kind of an event. And now, it's just, it just seems like everything's free, you know, I mean, not, I mean, in a sliding scale kind of way, by comparison. It's incredible what you can get for very little money when you go to the mall. And so, we tend to just do it reflexively.

• 17:33Rich Roll?

  We don't think about it and there are very powerful systems set up to prevent us from really considering that. Because the marketing is so flashy and it's all about, you know, kind of conveying this idea that you're going to step into this aspirational lifestyle. If you buy this product and to bring it back to the analogy with with our food systems. You know, so much of our food systems are produced in the United States. So in order to create that, you know, kind of wall to prevent us from seeing it. We've had to enact regulatory actions by way of ag gag laws to really prevent us from seeing it. But because through, you know, the globalization of capitalism.

• 18:17Rich Roll?

  Our clothes are made so far away that we don't really need the ag gag laws because it's just it's so it's out of sight, out of mind. We don't have to look about maybe in the back of our mind, we kind of know, yeah, this probably isn't right. You know, this is just too cheap, but it's too tempting to not buy it.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Well, I that's that's really profound and I think even when you look at, you know, we put into place really good things here in our country like the Clean Water Act. And some of these different initiatives that from a production standpoint made it that much easier to, as you say, have it be done in places where we don't have to look at the impact. It just so happens that we're doing so much of it and it's growing at such a scale that it's beginning to take a burden. Planetarily, it's beginning to take a burden that's that's undeniable at this point. And it's opening up the space for a bigger conversation about human rights. But you're right, you have to go look for this stuff and it was my experience that you it it wasn't just a search. It was like excavating like it it took so it's in it's in an unbelievable thing.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  How separated, how safely separated we we can let ourselves be from where things actually come from.

• 19:25Rich Roll?

  So 80 billion items of new clothes are produced a year. That's a 400% increase from like 20 years ago, right?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 19:34Rich Roll?

  And a lot of these clothes are actually manufactured so that they don't last like purposefully, right? Is that correct?

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. I mean, the fast fashion business model is basically, you know, trying to get something that you had and held on to for a long time. To transition and one. Really one lifetime or one generation into a commodity that we view as a disposable good. And that's a phenomenal thing. So, yes, number one, you're going to make it so cheap that it doesn't hit a certain thoughtfulness threshold when I'm purchasing it. And then also, it doesn't last. And I began to look at my own wardrobe and ask these questions, and sure enough, I realized I was buying into that. Like, I was purchasing a lot of cheap things that felt great at the checkout that really were falling apart at the end of the season, the end of the year. It was almost like clockwork.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  They just, a few washes in, fundamentally begin to deteriorate.

• 20:31Rich Roll?

  Right. And there's a couple sort of ramifications of that. The first of which is, I think you say that each, every person on average produces 82 pounds of textile waste per year. 82 pounds for every person. And that amounts to 11 million tons of textile waste.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  From the US alone.

• 20:49Rich Roll?

  That's US alone.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and what's amazing about that is, when you think about that waste, that waste is oftentimes toxic waste. And that's a whole other, you know, health side of the consideration. But actually, when you're, the trimmings are cut off of the finished pieces that are going to you in the factory, they would get, I would watch them, be put in hazardous waste. So there's chemicals in the product, you know, by nature. It's also, we're making a lot of synthetic clothing. So that's plastics, that's petroleum-based. And so a lot of that stuff does not break down. Like, this is not a case of, you know, throw it in a landfill, and in a couple of decades, this stuff will just biodegrade. It's quite the opposite to that.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  And those dyes, that material is just having a profound impact. And the really dark irony to that is, a lot of this waste comes from the production side, so it's in these developing countries. So I spent time walking through landfills in countries all over the world where clothing waste stretches out as far as the eye can see. Some consumer, mostly production, like the excess cutaways.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  And that, yeah, that just has a profound, uncounted cost.

• 22:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have these scenes in the movie where they're literally just mountains of textile waste. They're like giant hills of just black, like wasting away toxic materials. Was that mostly in Bangladesh?

• 22:16Speaker 01

  That was in Bangladesh, that was also in India, and that was also in Cambodia.

• 22:22Rich Roll?

  Right, and you have, you see the pollution going into the Ganges in that one town where they, they're known for their leather production, right? Like, one of the number one places in the world for...

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, in Kampur, India, exactly. And that's, I mean, that's a, that's a serious issue where these, you know, major, major, major companies, multinational brands who are hugely funded and they, they have the research, they're very, they're very aware. And they're sourcing from communities and pockets of the world that just do, that physically do not have the technological, not just know-how, but, you know, equipment to deal with these very toxic production processes in safe ways. And so you're seeing, you know, open waste, you know, in that case that you mentioned, from leather tanning factories pour into a river that supports life for, you know, countless people all through India.

• 23:15Rich Roll?

  And juxtaposed against, you know, you have all these, this footage from all these different commercials, but there's that one for Joseph A. Banks where the woman is sort of satirically, you know, making the point that these, these suits are so cheap, she's like wiping her countertop with, wiping up a mess and then just, you know, disposing of it, you know, a whole suit, like a business suit, into the garbage. You know, like, this idea, this marketing idea is, is fueling this concept that we're constantly needing to renew our wardrobe. And I think there's, I can't remember who it was in the movie, but there was one woman from the fashion industry who said, you know, "It used to be two seasons a year, now it's 52 seasons."

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you walk into one of these, these major fast fashion, you know, stores and you will see a new piece of, a new, a whole new set of clothes every single week and in some cases now, every single day. I was literally just in Europe a few days ago and I went into a store the day after I had been in it and there was a whole new store. It's like the

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  And what are they doing with everything that doesn't sell?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  That's a huge question. And there's been, New York Times ran an incredible story a few years ago about clothing out back of one of these major retailers being cut up, like actually finding shredded bags of these clothes that weren't going out the front door. That's a huge question that, that has yet to be really answered.

• 24:32Rich Roll?

  So, so we don't even know, basically?

• 24:35Speaker 01

  No, and there's a lot of stories of, you know, these are not news stories of, of piles of clothing being burned, even at the factory level. This goes back a long way, even, you know, luxury products, handbags, you know, last year's models are just being incinerated. I mean, it's, it's, it's a fundamental question that you'll never un-ask once you ask it when you walk into any common good store. You say, well, what happened to, what happened to last month's or what happened to last week's? Like, did it all perfectly sell out, you know?

• 25:01Rich Roll?

  So what, when, when, I know that like the kind of inception point for the movie was when you, you know, saw this piece in the New York Times or this, about this tragedy. When did you know that this, there was a movie here, that you were gonna actually do something?

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Very quickly. I mean, this was a pretty, yeah, it was a pretty special process. I brought that article back to my producer that morning. We had just finished our, our previous film that week, so...

• 25:25Rich Roll?

  What was your previous film?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  It was, it was actually the first documentary I ever did. I, I lost my dad in a tragic cycling accident and I was sort of thrust into this world of loss and with no guide and I, I, I just didn't know how to navigate it. So what I ended up doing was making a film where I basically went and spent time with people all over the country who had experienced some form of loss and, and, um, yeah, it was, it was a life-changing process. And, and honestly, it's funny you ask me that because I think, honestly, the process of making that film sort of had both my producer and I in a very open, very sensitive place that I think is part of why that article jumped out at me. I think I was just in that spot.

• 26:10Rich Roll?

  You're raw.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we, we had the conversation about the article that day. We followed the Rona Plaza factory collapse story in the news cycle for the next couple of days and by the end of the week, We knew it was a film that we were gonna make. We couldn't believe this story hadn't been told and we didn't know how we were gonna do it, but I think it was just within days that it was pretty clear.

• 26:31Rich Roll?

  And so how long before you jumped on a plane and actually went to Bangladesh?

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Well, we started, I picked up-

• 26:37Rich Roll?

  You did a Kickstarter, right?

• 26:39Speaker 01

  We did. And I, and I, the first thing I did in that first week was I picked up the phone and I started calling people that worked in different parts of the fashion industry all over the world and introduced myself and just said, you know, I'm following this story. Everyone was following the story that week. And I said, I'm a filmmaker and I, I'm really interested in telling this story. Can you give me some insight from your perspective? And so I talked to, you know, everywhere from activists to, you know, scientists. Like, I just really, I built some relationships, some of which actually are people that are, ended up being featured in the film and even came on as producers. And I started by asking if I could come, uh, speak with them and, and interview them. And we cut a little short video together, which became the Kickstarter. And, uh, more than 900 people, mostly strangers all over the world, uh, contributed to that Kickstarter campaign.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  And that allowed us to buy our tickets to Bangladesh and start. And we, we continued to, you know, it was one of those projects where we would, we would get enough for the next trip and the next trip. But that was, that was the beginning.

• 27:36Rich Roll?

  Right. Very cool. Um, and so, uh, from there, how does it, I mean, is it, did you have a global sense of the arc of the movie? Or were you just sort of doing your investigative journal? Like, you go to Bangladesh, you meet a guy and you're like, oh, you gotta talk to this guy now. You gotta, how did it kind of unfold?

• 27:55Speaker 01

  It was, it was, yeah, it was kind of, it was twofold. It was, on one sense, I knew right away that I wanted this to be a global story. Like, when I, when I started looking into this, I felt like it was really very, very important that this not be a Bangladesh film. Because if it was a Bangladesh film, it could be about those people over there and here we are over here. I instantly thought, we need to shoot in countries all over the world to really, not only capture the story fairly, but also to, to make it a film where you lose track of where you are at some point and it just becomes about our story. And so I had that going in. What I didn't have going in, uh, was this sense of unraveling ideas. And sometimes it was like, you need to talk to this person over there. But more than that, it was someone would uncover a truth

• 28:40Speaker 01

  or a story or something that just sort of, um- Caught us off guard and it begged the next question. And so we would go ask that question. So the film begins to be this kind of collage of, of people and places and ideas. And that unfolding nature was really my education. Like it was really me not knowing anything about economics, me not understanding, you know, environmental, yeah. So that just kind of unfolded in a really, in a really profound way that in a lot of ways, my experience making the film really, more than anything else I've done, was, was what I was trying to have put into the experience for the viewer. Cause I, I had this experience that was like very, very unlike anything I'd done before,

• 29:22Speaker 01

  where in, in the same weeks, I would be, you know, going back and forth between some of the most beautiful fashion runways at some of the, you know, gorgeous cities. I would be in these circles of, you know, very powerful, wealthy people. And then that same week I'd be in a slum or I'd be, and that sort of, that sense of whiplash, that sense of emotional, that kind of began to form what became the film.

• 29:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that, that juxtaposition, I really think, you know, hammers home how powerful this is and, and the, and the complete disconnect between these two worlds that are inextricably linked, right? To see this beautiful footage of these, you know, gorgeous models on the runway and the fabulousness of it all slammed up against, you know, what that, you know, toxic waste dump looks like, or the, you know, the runoff into the Ganges or whatever. Like that's the reality of what creates the other, you know? And to have those slammed up against each other in the way that you did is powerful. And, you know, I think it needs to be said, your cinematography is beautiful. Like even when you're in the most desperate conditions, like the film work is really,

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Hmm, thank you.

• 30:28Rich Roll?

  Really well done. Yeah, thanks. So, um, so.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Well, and what, and honestly, to just do that point, Rich, like one of the interesting things was that this was a film that you, we didn't have to really heighten anything. And so everything from the cinematography, like all the choices that we made artistically, like when you say putting those two images side by side, it's like, that's all it took. Like this isn't like Sarah McLachlan's not singing a sad song with slow motion. It just, we're just saying, look at these two parts of something that make this whole.

• 31:05Rich Roll?

  Well, I couldn't help but think that there was a lot of conscious thought put into the tone. Like, the tone is very important of this movie, because it could very easily venture into this big guilt trip that's gonna make everyone who watches it feel bad, or it could be, you know, a preachy movie, you know, that would anger people. Certainly, I think it, you know, it's aided by the fact that you insert your story into it. Like, the movie begins with you trying to answer this question for yourself, right? But it's not like a Michael Moore movie where you're the focus of the attention. Like, you let these subjects and the people that you're speaking to let that story unfold for you, but it's very clear that this movie is not about making you feel bad.

• 31:48Rich Roll?

  It's inciting, it's hopefully inciting you to think more deeply and to perhaps make more conscious choices, but not to guilt you into making you feel like you're a bad human being. So what was the process of, you know, coming up with, you know, walking that tightrope and crafting that balance?

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Well, I think for me, it's just, it's been a process of trying to understand where we are at this moment in history, and I think where I believe a lot of people are is more aware of some of the profound issues facing humanity than at most other points in our history, actually. I think a lot of people are beginning to be very aware of some huge challenges and unfinished work and systemic injustices that still are rooted in our world. So I don't think you have to hit people over the head with "something's wrong." I think what people are looking for is an invitation to be a part of a more meaningful life in a more beautiful, just world.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  And I think I, from the beginning, this issue of transitioning out of just being a bystander to being a participant to with, you know... In my relationship, my wife, my children, like, beginning to think about the things that were coming into our home in a more thoughtful way, it was enriching my life. Like, it was actually making, it was connecting these things that I care about on a big-picture level over here to some very immediate choices I was making. And that's, that's what I wanted for, for other people. And I think, I think that's the, the moment that we're in is, um, not, it's not like we're at the end of awareness, because there's a lot more awareness needed, but I think we're at a moment where we have the tools and the ability to make some profound change

• 33:28Speaker 01

  to the world around us. And, and a lot of people just need an invitation. So, if someone watches the film and they walk away feeling excited, um, maybe angry, but, but excited of just how much is at stake and how much their little life gets to be a part of this bigger thing, that, that's, to me, that's what I'm after.

• 33:50Rich Roll?

  I think we are at a cultural tipping point with that kind of awareness and consciousness. And I think that's being driven by, you know, people of your generation, you're a card-carrying millennial, right? And I think that, uh, you know, people of your age and, and, you know, a little bit younger even, you're 29, right?

• 34:08Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 34:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so people, you know, in their twenties are, and I think this is being driven by the internet age, you know, are demanding transparency in, in their consumer goods and in the rest of their life. Like, it's just not acceptable. Because the internet fuels transparency, because everything has to be transparent that's online, the idea that a company would not be transparent in their, you know, sort of chain of processes is, is, is becoming quickly and for the betterment of society, like, an intolerable idea, right? We want to know. And I've often said, you know, we have food label, we have labels on our food that tell us, you know, the nutrients, is it organic, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. I feel like every consumer goods product should have some kind of similar label that,

• 34:51Rich Roll?

  that tells you, you know, where it was produced, how it was produced, uh, you know, the materials that were used in it, uh, is it fair trade, you know, what are the toxins in it, and what is the carbon, you know, footprint of that product? Like, I feel like that should be... Something that every product should have, right?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:08Rich Roll?

  Certainly our clothes.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and I think that's the sort of common sense nature that a lot of people are waking up to. And I think, you know, more broadly, the idea of the true cost is really that we're continuing to externalize all the true impacts and costs of making the goods and services that we enjoy every day. So that's sort of on a one-way collision course. That's just inevitably problematic, you know? That a company could be producing something and using 10 times the water. They could be, you know, polluting 10 times more than another company. And the only thing we're counting in this system right now is profit. So as long as there's continued quarter-on-quarter growth,

• 35:51Speaker 01

  all of those other things, impacts to human rights, labor, and all of the scores of systems that our planet has carried out at great resilience up until this point that are being threatened, aren't factored into that equation. They're not in the boardroom. They're not at the table. They're not getting counted. And I think there's just a lot of people who maybe, you know, building on the shoulders of the previous generation and work that has come before us are just standing up to say, "I think it's time that we could invent a better system." And I think there's a growing feeling of anti-in inevitability. Like, why is it that so much of the way we were taught was that we've come through all these ups and downs in human history

• 36:34Speaker 01

  and then we've arrived at this point where everyone... And you only have to turn on your TV or open a laptop or get a ticket and fly somewhere to realize that's not true, that the world's still fundamentally in need of innovation and care and cultivation, and we're just getting started, you know? And that's thrilling to me.

• 36:53Rich Roll?

  Right. And meanwhile, if you go to the website of any of these big garment companies, I'm sure there's policies, you know, they'll have a section where it tells you that everything they do is above board and all of this, right? Like, "Oh, we make sure that our workers are cared for and blah, blah, blah." But it's just propaganda for the most part, right?

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Huge propaganda and huge amounts of marketing and a huge amount of the CSR. Effort has been a, an effort on behalf of the companies to

• 37:18Rich Roll?

  What's CSR?

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Police themselves.

• 37:20Rich Roll?

  What is CSR?

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Corporate social responsibility. So it's really a lot of times folded into a marketing department and it is, you know, it stems from some of the Nike sweatshop stuff. When this stuff started to get documented, there was a push for regulation, which just means we're playing a competitive game and there have to be rules. And their push away from that was to say, no, no, no, the, the players on the field can write their own rules. Like we can police ourselves. We don't need outside oversight because we're gonna do our own. And time after time again, it just, yeah.

• 37:49Rich Roll?

  How is that gonna possibly work? It's never gonna work, right? Self policing, you know, when profit is the motive and there are 52, you know, seasons in this fashion year, it's just never gonna happen, right? I think one of the most profound, for me, uh, sort of moments in the movie is when you have this Harvard, Stanford economist who basically says, look, you know, we are a culture in which we've been taught to think and speak critically about all of our systems, you know, all our systems of government, et cetera. And, you know, through that dialogue to hopefully craft better versions of what preceded them. But the one thing that we're not allowed to criticize is our economy, our capitalist economy. If you do that, you're ostracized, that's anathema, right?

• 38:33Rich Roll?

  And so who's to say that this capitalist system, as we continue to globalize, doesn't need a revision?

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 38:43Rich Roll?

  Especially when, you know, we're, we're outsourcing our modes of manufacturing to these underdeveloped countries where there's no regulation, no oversight, no, uh, you know, ecological, you know, stopgaps on, on what's occurring. You know, we have a responsibility to step in as a superpower and make sure that not only these, these workers are treated fairly and given a fair living wage, but that we're not polluting our planet. Like our planet doesn't get a seat at the table to speak up and say, stop doing this to me. And, you know, the UN is like ineffectual at this. It's like we almost need this global organization policing effort, um, because as we continue to globalize and stuff is happening outside our borders, you know, how are we supposed

• 39:28Rich Roll?

  to regulate that in a way that is, uh, that is humane?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I think there's so much truth in that. And I think one of the problems, we're in that like stopgap moment where we're operating in a globalized economy, but we're still operating by localized sense of governance and rules. And there's a lot of gaps in that system. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not a... We're not individual countries anymore. We really are tied together in so many economic ways. And the lack of oversight and the lack of questioning that is profound. And part of where that comes from is if you're... You mentioned the word "superpower." If you're the power typically and not the oppressor, then the system typically looks a little better than it is from your vantage point.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  So, when we're only looking at some of these issues from a very privileged, successful... The system worked here. Like, it worked. I mean, you've... From World War II, like, we really accumulated a vast amount of wealth. There's just another side to that coin, though. And I think truly the life-changing experience of making this film, and this sounds so simple, but it was for me, getting out of my context, to go look at the world through the lens of people who are the under-half. And it's not to have some faint-hearted, feel-good pity. It's more to say, are we organizing our world in the way that gives most people the best

• 40:56Speaker 01

  shot at some opportunity? At a sense of... Or are we really entrenching systems of exploitation? And I think for too long, the fashion industry has paraded as a champion of empowerment and really has further entrenched these systems.

• 41:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I want to drill down on that a little bit and get into the human rights aspect of it. Because the predominant argument is that these people, whether they're in Bangladesh, or India, or Malaysia, or Cambodia, these people, if not for, you know, what we're providing them through our factory work, would have a lesser life. Like, that they would have no option. We're providing them an option. And by doing that, we are helping to, you know, raise the floor on their experience. But there's a lot of problems with that argument.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Well, that is a very good description of the story that I certainly grew up in. And I think a lot of people listening, certainly in America, grew up hearing. It was... And it kind of, you know, it offsets any sort of guilt. Like, whenever you ask that question as a kid, or, you know, "Well, where is this coming from?" Is this making life better? Or is this, um, that was always, you know, as ugly as it might be, you know, buildings might be falling down, people might being, you know, it's leading ultimately to a better place for these people. And the alternative would be they'd be dying in starvation. And I think that's a really, uh, number one, I mean, that it, you don't have to be too much of a thinking person to feel like that just sound, that sounds super convenient, first of all. That sounds a little bit too black and white.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  But also, why, why, not, not only is that not happening in case after case after case? Not only is that proving to not follow through, the trickle-

• 42:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, what is the reality?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  The trickle down from, from, we're just gonna produce enough and create enough wealth at the top that it's gonna, in the production sense, come down to these people, isn't bearing out. Um, when these people are able to stand up in any way and organize to fight back for better wages, what's happening is production will shift away from their country to an even lower, you know, ranking rung on the line. The, the phrase, the race to the bottom-

• 43:02Rich Roll?

  There's always another, there's always another country-

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's really, you know, in the film, you see Bangladesh. Bangladesh was a response to China. China beginning to get some form of, you know, being able to ask for something a little bit more basic and humane from a wage perspective. Uh, cause again, this is, you know, the most labor dependent industry on earth. So your, your people part of this equation on the labor force is astronomical. We, we still don't have machines making most of our clothes. People actually make the things that we wear. And those people are paid poverty wages. They're paid less than it costs to live in, in some of the poorest slums in these communities.

• 43:40Rich Roll?

  And you have that scene with the, the one woman, is her name Seema?

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Shima, uh-huh.

• 43:44Rich Roll?

  Shima, right? Is she the one, she, the, she, she was part, she was trying to do some labor organizing? Or was that a different, it was her, right?

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:52Rich Roll?

  And, uh, the result of, you know, they were trying to kind of organize around this idea of getting a, a fair living wage. And brought it to the management and the result of that was physical beatings.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:04Rich Roll?

  These people, right?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  It's horrific and yeah, Shima leads a union in her factory, which is yeah, facing huge retaliation.

• 44:13Rich Roll?

  Union in the loosest definition of the word, right? Cause it's completely powerless and ineffectual.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and you see that all across the world. We were in, you know, in Nampen, Cambodia, you see in the film where workers stood up and actually went on strike. You know, we're out in the streets asking for, I think, like a dollar increase, you know, just this negligible increase in a wage. And the police were brought in and started open firing live rounds. And I went to a funeral of a garment worker that was beaten to death in those riots by simply standing up to ask for a wage. So I think that's one of the, to me, so to your earlier question, first of all, are they going to die of starvation or are we going to exploit them in this work? One of the first questions that has to be asked to me is why are those the only two options?

• 45:01Speaker 01

  You know, why in an industry that's in the trillions where profit margins can be astronomically large? Why are we not organizing that supply chain system to, you know, just care for the most fundamental, basic human needs?

• 45:16Rich Roll?

  That's un-American, Andrew, come on, it's anti-capitalist, who's going to do that? I mean, yeah, the scene in the movie at the funeral with that man kind of breaking down is just, it's just, it's so heart wrenching. And the scene of the riot in Cambodia is off the chart. I mean, were you present for that?

• 45:36Speaker 01

  I was present.

• 45:37Rich Roll?

  Some of that footage looked like it was archival.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. I was present for the second round of protests, which were, which is when that funeral took place. And there was a lot that that sparked, but this, I was not there when they were shooting. We had a really brave journalist, actually, who was there that shot that stuff. And it was, it's really powerful to see because I think my experience again was, it's one thing to know about these issues. And I think so many times I'm guilty of being a person who can sort of understand on paper these concepts. And it's, it's a life-changing difference to be in these situations and to be looking these people in the eye and to realize this is their life. You know, these are mothers and fathers, these are families, these are communities, these are people.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Just that, they're people, they're people, and they're not just cogs in a machine. And I think that. That's jarring. I mean, that's really jarring stuff to experience because yeah, in a sense to what you're saying, that's a natural inevitable part of capitalism. So grow up, get used to it, get over it, you know, but it's like, wait, hold on a second. How is that? Maybe I'm just not old enough to like, accept that that's okay.

• 46:45Rich Roll?

  Right. The food industry analog to this issue, there's a book called Meatonomics by a guy called David Simon. I had him on the podcast and he basically breaks down the economics of how the meat and dairy industry works. And if you strip away, you know, all the regulations and the farm bill and all of that, that a Big Mac would actually cost like $7. Like, that's the true cost, you know, the true cost of that product. So if we, you know, bringing it back to your, you know, subject matter, if we were to imagine there's some kind of, you know, global organization that could provide valid oversight and we could ensure that these people have, you know, a good living wage, safe working conditions,

• 47:30Rich Roll?

  you know, that we could put a cap on the toxic weight, like all, if we could solve all of those problems, what, I'm sure that the garment industry will tell you, well, then our items are going to be, you know, astronomically expensive and our profit margins will be cut down to zero and we're just, we can't do it, or we're just going to pull out. Like, but what would, what would that shirt at H and M suddenly cost?

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great question. And I think one of the exciting things in the film is we follow some people who are proving that this can be done in a way that is truly caring for all the hearts and hands that interact with these pieces along the way and still gets to market as at a reasonable price. And you mentioned, you know, our shared friends at the screening, there's a growing number of companies all over the world that are building business models that, that walk that line that say, you know what, we're gonna, it's gonna cost a little bit more, but, but oftentimes not that much more. And, and the transition, and, and the transition that I've, I've been in the midst of is the, you know, there's a lot of levers of power here, but at the end of the day, if this begins

• 48:34Speaker 01

  to be an issue that more people buying clothes care about, you know, Stella McCartney has that great line in the film where she says, if you don't like it, don't buy into it. If more people just begin to say, you know what, I'm not okay with that. I actually want to know where my stuff comes. I want to have some, and I'm willing to pay just a little bit more. The exchange that we'll get is it will be better made clothing. And we'll actually be able to hold on to it for a longer time. Like, there is nothing sustainable about this model of fast fashion. And I'm not out to make that model make sense. I'm out to prove that that model will never make sense. But what could make sense is investing in a wardrobe that we actually love. Paying a little bit more for things that we're actually gonna hold on to and wear

• 49:18Speaker 01

  that actually benefit those people on the other end of the spectrum.

• 49:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's a great point and beautifully said. I think it has to be from the top down and the bottom up. So at the top, we need, you know, we need government intervention and we need regulation and we need global oversight and all that sort of stuff. But at a very fundamental, you know, bottom level, it's about each and every consumer, you know, making better choices. And I think that there is, you know, back to the tipping point issue, there is a tipping point with this, you know, companies that, you know, began with Tom Shoes of looking at, you know, this idea of conscious capitalism in, in a way that can, you know, you can create, you can create great products and be profitable and do it in a way that is gentler on the

• 50:03Rich Roll?

  planet and more conscious with respect to, you know, the chain of labor that produced it. And it does feel good to patronize those companies. I think at the same time, you have to be more active as a consumer in exploring, you know, these kinds. There's a lot of companies that are jumping on this bandwagon and giving lip service to this idea, but they're not actually practicing it, right? So, you know, Industry of All Nations, where you did your screening, you know, our mutual friend Juan and his brother have created this really cool clothing line where they're actually supporting these indigenous communities. They're not using any toxic dyes. Everything is natural and they're completely transparent about, you know, who these people

• 50:46Rich Roll?

  are and you, you, when you buy their, I'm wearing one of their shirts right now, like, you feel connected to those communities. Cause I know, like, I know Juan and I know that that money actually is going towards them. And so, yeah, their clothes are more expensive, but they're gonna last longer. And when I buy one, I'm just buying one. And like, this is my shirt that I'm getting from them. And it, it feels good. So I think... You know, there is this idea that you have to live this deprivation lifestyle if you're going to live more sustainably, or perhaps a little bit more minimally, you know, with respect to your food choices, or whatever consumer choices that you're making. But I've actually found it to be quite the opposite.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I love, I love how you said that. And I love that sense that that top-down, bottom-up, that's what we need in the world, and that's what we can all practice in our own lives, too. Like, it can be both. So I can be someone who, you know, I can, I can push and advocate for things, you know, system-wide change at the top. But then also, I, it, it, it keeps me fueled to keep doing that by making choices that support those beliefs at the bottom. And that's a powerful combination to me in our lives, like, and it's new to me, but to, to say, I'm gonna push, you know, with all my energy for change at the top, and I'm also gonna, on the very smallest, you know, choices in my life, for my kids, for our family, we're gonna be making choices that line up. It is, it's beautiful to hear you say that about the shirt. It's a gateway.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a way of inviting me into seeing the world in a more clear way. And you put on a shirt, and you think about it, and you, it, it just does something. It just matters. And it moves me out of just an invisible consumer into a partner, you know? Juan's a partner. He's making something. He's helping me live a more meaningful, just by being, you know, and he's doing the hard work. And I'm, I'm just, I'm helping buy into that.

• 52:39Rich Roll?

  Right. It's also empowering, too, because, you know, one of the things I always say is that it's very easy for us as citizen consumers, quote-unquote, consumers, to feel disenfranchised, and like, we can't make a difference. And I think I heard you saying in some other interview, you know, you watch In Inconvenient Truth, and you're just left with, like, well, I don't even, you know, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, it's so overwhelming, like, I can't possibly make a difference in this issue. But when you drill down to very specific actions, like, you know, I'm gonna choose this shirt and not this shirt, and I'm just gonna buy one, that's a powerful act. And that act has ramifications. And it's empowering to you, you know, as the consumer, to do that,

• 53:23Rich Roll?

  and then feel like you're part of something in a very real, you know, fundamental way. And it's also removing

• 53:31Rich Roll?

  Dissonance from your life because you may say like I support these ideas but then when your actions are at odds with that even on an unconscious level because you're not thinking about it I think that creates like residue that doesn't feel good right and the more you can bridge that gap and create alignment there like you just feel better.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  That's so powerful because you always is so powerful because you always ask the question well what will my one little choice do like will it really affect but you're kind of turning that over and saying what would it maybe do for your life like what would yes the system might get a bump but how much more are you gonna begin to lean into that's a that's a power that's a really powerful change and I think if there's anything that's if there's any trick being pulled certainly on my generation right now is a very passive invitation to care about issues on a macro level and ignore their impacts in our day to day life and it's a very business driven set of storytelling that that says yes yes yes care create an identity around caring but don't go so far as to actually adjust

• 54:34Speaker 01

  your choices to line up to that belief and to me when you line those two things up there isn't there is something ignites something really powerful happens.

• 54:42Rich Roll?

  Cool I want to talk about cotton.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Great.

• 54:45Rich Roll?

  Cotton is like this was news to me like of course I know like oh yeah lots of clothes are made out of cotton but actually you know cotton is really at the center of you know so much of the garment industry I think I'd written it down like half half of the total fiber used for clothing comes from cotton right and right now 90% of that cotton is genetically engineered BT cotton and you have a whole sort of segment and you know kind of primary person in the movie who's an organic cotton farmer in Texas and we kind of hear a little bit about her story and that kind of segues the narrative a little bit into

• 55:23Rich Roll?

  This world of GMOs and the health implications and all of that, which is treacherous, controversial territory, right? I feel like you could have easily made this movie without kind of going there.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could have. I know exactly what you're saying, but at the same time, it is such a dauntingly large part of the global fashion story. And ironically, and of interest to me, it impacts people who are some of the lowest, you know, some of the poorest workers in the supply chain are farmers, both here in this country and hugely around the world. We were, you know, with several parts of the story in India with cotton farmers there. And same thing in Texas with the woman that you mentioned. And yeah, it is. I mean, I think to me, the idea that I was trying to open up was just this thought for

• 56:13Speaker 01

  people that wherever you fall on this stuff, a lot of people are taking a greater amount of energy to think about organic things going into their bodies. And they're starting to care about those chemicals, those pesticides, they're starting to realize that has a real impact. Let's just put aside for a second, the communities in which it's grown, but it's actually having an impact on my health. And yet we wrap ourselves in these pieces of fabric that are some of the most chemically intensive, not just in the dying manufacturing process, which is also an issue, but to your point, in the cotton fields, I mean, we're talking about huge levels of chemicals. And that to me was sort of an aha moment.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  It was like, wow, I think about the food all the time. It's really, you know, it's easy to talk about an organic apple, but I sleep on cotton sheets and I, you know, all throughout my day, I'm interacting with this thing. And then on top of that-

• 57:08Rich Roll?

  And skin being your largest organ.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  It's the largest organ in your body. And I think if there's any area that, that science is going to excel, I mean, I think this stuff is just gonna, I think we're gonna be amazed at what's coming into our skin through our fabric. There's been remarkably little work done on what's coming in from, from the clothing aspect.

• 57:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a complete blind spot. And of course, this is anecdotal, but you know, this, this woman, this Texas farmer is talking about how, I mean, she's sitting on, I don't know how many thousands, like she has a huge farm, right? Like three million acres or something like that?

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Huge, yeah.

• 57:46Rich Roll?

  Her husband passed away from a brain tumor at age forty seven, or he lived to fifty. He contracted at age forty seven. And she tells this heart wrenching story of going to Lubbock, which is basically the nearest town to where she is, right, to get treatment for him. And there's a, like a whole sort of center there around cancer. And the doctors there are saying, yeah, we're treating this all the time. This is the most cotton intensive, you know, part of the nation, right?

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:15Rich Roll?

  And so you're led to draw this conclusion of, you know, this relationship between the BT cotton and perhaps, you know, the, it's so, there's so much pesticide that comes with that, that it's beyond just the genetic engineering of the corn itself. It's all the pesticide that go with it and the health implications on these farmers.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And that's, that's exactly the way I wanted to position it, you know. However, you want to think about the genetically altered organism, you know, let's put that aside and let's just look at the amount of chemicals and it's, and it's just astronomical. And when you think about the farmers, we think about, you know, in India, we think a lot about the green revolution and this whole GMO, you know, thing that was pushed and we don't think about cotton, but cotton's a huge, huge, huge part of the story. And I spent time in all different parts of the country witnessing farmers who had had no training on how to, how to apply these chemicals. And you're just seeing the stuff, you see in the film, being sprayed, open, no mask, running into waterways. I mean, I'm not even having to go look for, it's just, it's everywhere.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  And then you're talking to local doctors, you're talking, you know, about disease, you're talking, you're talking about all these issues that have just been profoundly unasked questions. And, and at the other end of it, that, that they are being marketed by the largest seed company in the world with a base here in our country. To me, you know, it asks these profoundly moral questions. You know, the stuff was introduced into the market in India. It had a spike, it raised yields, it did what it promised, and then it flattened out and then it went down. And so you saw this huge backlash. I mean, these people are living on zero margin. They're, you know, they're, and here they are taking in all these expensive inputs to

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  get this higher yield. And then when it begins to fail, what it was going to do, you see just tragic implications.

• 1:00:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, not the least of which is indentured servitude to Monsanto. And what you kind of demonstrate in the movie is how that contributes to suicide rates in India, right? Like, all these farmers are committing suicide, like, I think you said, one every 30 seconds?

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, more than 250,000. That number keeps going up in the last 15 years. I mean, it's the largest recorded wave of suicides in history coming out of this one area where they are farmers, that this is what they're growing, and the manner they kill themselves is very specific. They drink a bottle of the pesticide.

• 1:00:47Rich Roll?

  The Roundup, or?

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, the stuff that they spray on it.

• 1:00:53Rich Roll?

  And what leads to this? So, the promise is increased yields and increased, you know, pestilent resistance, right? So, it flattens out, and then, what, they're still forced to, you know, they still have to buy their seeds from Monsanto?

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:08Rich Roll?

  Where does it all go? Where does it fail for the farmers?

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, where it fails for the first part is just on the model being introduced. You know, these people are not used to buying seeds, and they're not, certainly if they're buying seeds, they're not used to buying seeds at that level. Monsanto comes in because they've altered something in the gene, you know, they own the seed, people are familiar with that. So, these folks, these farmers have to buy the seeds every single year, and they are astronomically more expensive than what they've had to, you know, buy before. And you can't, everyone knows with Monsanto, you can't hold seeds aside, you can't, you can't do the thing that the earth provided the poorest people as the most fundamental, you know, protection of what it means to be a human being.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Farming is a very interesting way in which the poorest of the poor get a chance to eat and to work. You know, it's a very interesting thing, and it's taken that model, and it's introduced a very Western capitalist business exchange, where these people take on huge amounts of debt to get these inputs, and when the yields don't come back to be what they're advertised to be,

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  there's catastrophic impacts, not to mention, as I said, the huge, huge questions about this waste and these chemical offshoots and all of these things that are affecting these communities.

• 1:02:33Rich Roll?

  Do you have data on the environmental footprint of all of this? I mean, I think you say in the movie that it's second only to the oil industry in terms of this sort of toxic byproduct of this business, but did you get into the data of it at all?

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  We did. I mean, there's a lot of different ways to break those numbers down. From a polluting freshwater standpoint, I think it's number one or number two. I mean, from a carbon emissions standpoint, it's absolutely huge, partly because of the transportation costs, but also partly because of just the crude manufacturing process. I mean, you sort of go down the list of every measure of both natural resources and environmental impact, and however you factor it, this ranks really, really, really, really, really high, which is interesting because it is still one of those issues and one of those industries that doesn't show up when most people think about climate change or pollution or resource scarcity.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  You know, in Paris, there wasn't a big conversation about clothing. It just somehow kind of sits just under the radar.

• 1:03:42Rich Roll?

  It's very similar to "Causperecy" in that regard. You know, I think that documentary did a great job of, very similarly, pulling the covers on the animal agriculture business and revealing certain truths that we never really thought about, right? And you're kind of doing the same. Tonally, your movie's very different, but I'm interested in this journey of really pulling covers on what is essentially, what is it, like a $3 trillion a year business? What has the reception been in the fashion industry?

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  It's been, I mean, it's been amazing. I think for an independently-produced film, the response, and it's been bigger and more impactful and more meaningful than any of us expected, truthfully. We started about a year ago. We took the film to Cannes, and we took it from there to... It was interesting. It got noticed by some people in the fashion industry who became sort of champions for it. So we had some very odd allies. We had some people.

• 1:04:46Rich Roll?

  Well, it's it's super interesting. When I was kind of reading some of the press, like, you know, there's pictures of you with the Fabulosi, you know, like it's you. I mean, early on, uh, is it Lily Firth? What's her name?

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  Livia Firth.

• 1:04:58Rich Roll?

  Livia, Livia Firth came on board, right? Was she a producer on the movie with you?

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  She was, yeah.

• 1:05:02Rich Roll?

  Right. So, you know, she's an advocate in this, you know, in this sphere, but also happens to be married to, you know, a movie, a movie star. And a movie star, not just a movie star, Colin Firth, but but a collaborator of with Tom Ford, right?

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:17Rich Roll?

  One of the most powerful and iconic people in fashion. So how does that work?

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  It was really, yeah, it was really interesting. And Livia, I have Livia to thank for a lot of this. I mean, I think we knew from the beginning, like a lot of, you know, independent documentaries, we didn't have a marketing budget or, um, you know, Netflix picked the film up and took it out to 190 countries. But we had to do the work of actually making this thing show up on the radar. And that meant we had to get influential people to help this thing get noticed. And Livia, uh, has navigated that world for a number of years between fashion and activism. And so she, she kind of had a way of of positioning it almost. I mean, it was, it was really masterful. I mean, we had folks like Anna Wintour and Tom Ford and all these people coming to our premiere events.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  And I don't know if, I don't know how much they knew what they were coming into, but but they were really kind. And, um, you know, I think it was Tom that gave a really, a very disturbed quote to Vogue after our premiere in London. I mean, these are people that were, they really were shaken and they really weren't callous. And I had conversations with, with a lot of these folks, not just on that side of it, but also in some of these major companies and some of these people, people saying either publicly or privately. This isn't okay, you know, and I hoped, you know, I wanted the film to be strong enough to do justice to what we're talking about, but I also wanted it to be open enough. You know, you mentioned the tone, like I made it so that there could be a conversation.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  There's actually a lot of things in the film that I'm asking questions, I'm not giving firm answers, I'm not coming to the table with the arrogance of, I know how to fix a $3 trillion industry, I'm just saying, I think it's time to open up the conversation and be honest about what we're actually dealing with here. And I have been shocked and surprised by how many collaborators I've had in that process, and people who I think have wanted to have a new conversation about fashion, and the film has given them a common place to start. So companies will do screenings, like really, really big companies with really big stuff, and it will act as a neutral starting point for a dialogue. Or, you know, the UN has done, it's been an interesting thing to see it kind of roll out.

• 1:07:27Rich Roll?

  Right. There's that amazing sequence in the movie where Ms. Firth kind of calls out that representative from H&M, and she just slams her, basically, right? Like, walk us through that.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the Copenhagen Fashion Summit, and it was a, you know, world gathering of major brands and NGOs and people that were working on, you know, cleaning up the fashion industry. And Livia Firth, one of our producers, was on a panel with the head of sustainability for H&M at the time, and they were having a conversation about living wage, and it was, you know, it was just one of those sort of laughable conversations where, laughable and deeply sad conversations where you have the corporate speak, the greenwashing, you just sort of have this like, yes, of course, we're trying to get everyone paid living wage, and you have Livia just putting her foot down and saying, no, like, it's not okay.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Like, it's not okay that we just had a factory fall down and take the lives of these people, followed by another fire, followed by, it's not okay that there's proven data that these people can't live in their circumstance, all these things. And it was really, it was powerful because it was, I think, you don't get many times in life where the corporate perspective, which is sort of reminiscent of a very political, we see it in campaign season sometimes, where it's like, I'm gonna say a lot and say nothing.

• 1:08:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  And you have someone sitting next to her who's the ultimate truth teller saying, "No, this isn't okay." And you have this room kind of erupting and applauding and cheering back and forth, and the H and M team is cheering for her.

• 1:09:04Rich Roll?

  Wow. Were you there?

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  I was in the audience, and it was captivating. And I really, I mean, there was so much more to that that I wish could have. I mean, it was really powerful because you are what I think Olivia is demanding in that conversation and what we're demanding in the film is to say, no matter how complex economically or otherwise these issues can parade as they are fundamentally moral at the end of the day because they're about human beings. And that sort of ushers in a clarity to the conversation that the corporate side of it is very uncomfortable having.

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  Right. And H and M refused to grant you an interview for the movie. And there really aren't any talking heads from the major brands, Gap or these huge companies. And it made me think about your approach and the choices that you've made about how to communicate this message. And I think I saw you say or read somewhere that you didn't want to do Gacha interviews. Like you didn't want to just try to trick H and M into granting you an interview and then box them into a corner with a question they weren't expecting. Like you were very transparent. Like, "Hey, H and M, I want to interview you. This is what

• 1:10:19Rich Roll?

  my movie's about." Like you told them upfront. You were very honest and clear about that. And they said, "No, thank you." I don't know how long they thought about it. But why didn't you go the conspiracy route and say, "Oh, I'm just making a movie about fashion," and then get that person in the room and try to ask them that hard question and watch them squirm?

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it was because I wanted it to be able to play out the way it has where this could be a constructive criticism. I mean, there's no doubt this is a criticism. I am making something that's really very critical of a set of ideas and a system. At the same time, I want it to be constructive. And I don't want to burn a bridge in the process of telling the story that it can't be useful once we have the story out there. And I think the other part of me feels like if we... If we keep, if we keep doing that thing where we demonize the, the company specifically, or the, the person, or the, um, it alleviates all of us with responsibility that we have. And I think I was more interested in saying, let's critique the system.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  So you see brands in the film and we, we show logos and their stuff, but there's so much that we chose not to put in the cut. There's so much I had and have of storylines that are just, I mean, some of these corporations are just as bad, if not horrifically worse than you think they are. But it just sort of felt like that's, we, we sort of know that. And the thing that maybe we haven't considered before is what kind of role do we play? And what's the system coalesce to create together? Not just the individual demonizing of, of one, one party.

• 1:11:58Rich Roll?

  It's a tall ask though, when you say to the consumer, like, listen, you need to ignore all these messages that you're being bombarded with everywhere you go, every single day. I mean, your movie is littered with, you know, what it looks like to walk through Times Square. And I think there's footage, it must be Tokyo where you just see these, you know, dynamic, you know, they're not billboards, they're moving images, you know, that is tall as skyscrapers of, you know, beautiful people appearing to be loved, wearing fabulous clothes. And it's hypnotic, you know, it's hypnotic. And so it's very difficult to, you know, take a step outside of that propaganda machine, for lack of a better word. I mean, it really is propaganda.

• 1:12:38Rich Roll?

  They're selling you an idea that isn't really the truth, that you can see in your movie when you juxtapose it up against, you know, the factory conditions of the people that are actually producing this concept. You know, it's an idea more than it is the shirt.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  And I think honestly, this stuff wouldn't, uh, be as upsetting as it is to me if, if we were doing this damage on one side of the equation to people and to the environment. If, if those of us on this end of the equation were, were happy. If we were actually buying into a story that was making us more whole.

• 1:13:16Rich Roll?

  We're getting less happy.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  It's this double irony. I mean, it's that sense, there was a professor named Tim Castor in the film and he talks about, you know, the, the myths and the, the storylines of advertising. And it is, and you're exactly right, it's promising you something that fundamentally is not going to fulfill. So it is setting people up to live in a cycle of emptiness that is, um,

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Just as profound or dangerous as, as some of these impacts that we're calling out.

• 1:13:42Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. And so how do we, you know, how, how do we like get ourselves together to begin to ignore that?

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Well, I think part of it is just beginning to be aware that you're being sold to with hundreds of billions of dollars every single day. And you are targeted in a way that would defy your imagination. Everything about your choices and your beliefs and opinions and the construct of who you are is a target on someone's balance sheet. And they are aggressively trying to make you believe you need to buy more things than you did last month. And that's just true. So for me, that change, just, just beginning to think along those lines. It's like, I mean, your matrix comment, you're seeing Times Square in a different way when you're thinking along those lines. But I also think there's a, there's a void of meaning in a lot of people's lives.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  And I, I met, you know, in the film, we have those, um, the shopping hall girls on YouTube and they're, they're, you know, buying all that.

• 1:14:40Rich Roll?

  Right. Ah, that's so amazing.

• 1:14:41Speaker 01

  But it's like you, you think about, there, there's been this amazing, um, there, there's an annual event now called Fashion Revolution Day, which is huge advocacy and awareness and activism around these issues. And one of the things they did this year is they reached out to, to some of those, um, girls and they showed them the film and they had a conversation. And then, um, they started creating some videos called, uh, Hall Alternatives where they were going to, you know, used clothing stores. And they were telling a story and they were going overseas to these factories. And what struck me when I watched those videos is it was like, here's this sense of, um, creativity and passion and energy that these, these people have. And all it took was redirecting that, was, was inviting that to a, a deeper sense of meaning.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  So if you're a person that's walking around, living life, just, you know, just at the level that that advertising storyline is, is selling you, I think you're missing out. I think they're promising you something that would be far better served invested into something meaningful. And there's something about meaning in my life. Meaning has a way of crowding out meaninglessness. And meaninglessness often, what goes with that sometimes is mindless consumption in some of these things.

• 1:15:54Rich Roll?

  That's amazingly well put. Wow, that's beautiful. So actually, these very same vlogger girls or a different set of like YouTube?

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, some of the very same, yeah.

• 1:16:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's crazy. So in the movie, you have clips from YouTube of the, you know, like those YouTube channels teenage girls are shopping. Oh, here's my big haul. Here's what I got. Like, look at all this stuff I got for a hundred dollars or whatever. And they're going through it. And then you look at the counter, it's like four and a half million views, you know? It's amazing how powerful that is.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  Well, and it's like, you know, honestly, Rich, you've talked about this before. And it's that concept of like, if you're trying to invite change in people. It's like the changes that have actually made our lives different at any point have not been by saying, here's this bad thing you're doing. Stop doing that bad thing. They've been to say, how can we replace that habit with this other habit? I think it's really dangerous to tell people, just buy less stuff, like just buy less clothes. Don't be as materialistic. Don't, don't listen to, you know? But when you begin to say, there's a bigger story happening in the world. Like there's something more engaging taking place than you've been led to believe. And when people get a glimpse of that, this other thing seems dim and faded and old fashioned.

• 1:17:06Rich Roll?

  Right. It just falls away as opposed to, instead of focusing on removing the thing that's bad, focusing on taking the next right or better action. And by virtue of creating a habit around that and what that gives you, the bad thing just sort of seems suddenly not appealing.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  I think that's, I think it's very true.

• 1:17:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's pretty cool. Well, it must've been cool to go to Cannes, like a young filmmaker, like set your second movie. Was it your second movie? So how did that happen?

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  It was amazing. I mean, we basically began to look at the release plan and look at how to position the film. You know, it was right at, it was, we were, you always look at festivals as like, when are you going to finish the film? And then when do you want the release to happen? And it just happened to be in the perfect time. And it was, it was so cool because Livia and Colin were there and, you know, they got together a bunch of their friends who are super not normal friends, if I'm being honest. There was a lot of those moments. Yeah. And they're cool. I mean, there's, I'll never forget some of those memories. And it wasn't lost on me. I mean, my producer and I both, and he, he, you know, he's been on this path with me for several years now. And we both have had several moments this last year where you just look around, you just have to pause and

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  say, how, you know, this is extraordinary.

• 1:18:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, and the movie came, I mean, how long has the process been from idea to completion?

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  It was about a two-year process as a whole. And then, you know, we're now several, several months now into the release. And it just kind of keeps growing. I mean, it's hit all these markets around the world. So we'll go do special press when it's going to hit a certain, it'll still do theatrical openings in a city or some, or country or festival. It kind of just, it has this life. It's, and it's fun now because it's like, releasing a film is like having a little baby and it needs everything for a while. And now it kind of feels like it's, it's out in the world. It's doing something.

• 1:19:02Rich Roll?

  It's in the world. It's doing its own thing without, yeah, yeah. So what is, I mean, what's your background? I mean, did you always want to be a filmmaker?

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  I did. I, I grew up just outside of Atlanta and I was, I'm, I'm trying to make it not sound as cliche as it is. I mean, I was horrible, you know, not, not a good student in school. There weren't like several things to choose between. I picked up a camera really young, I think, fourth grade, and took it out and made a short film with my friend that was a skateboarder. I called it skateboarding.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  And I loved it. I, I, I remember watching E.T. for the first time, sitting on the end of my bed, crying my eyes out at the end. And I, I just had these, these moments where I felt like something in this, it felt like wizardry to me. How could I feel so much through someone else's eyes? Like, how could I, it, it felt otherworldly to me. And I didn't have anyone in my life that was doing it, you know, I wasn't, we weren't in Los Angeles and I, yeah, at the end of high school, I, I moved out to Los Angeles and went to film school, studied cinematography. And, and really, that was the first time that I felt good at something. I felt like it made sense. Like, stories have always been the thing to me that they, they just, they just

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  click in a way that nothing else in the world intrinsically clicks to me.

• 1:20:22Rich Roll?

  And did you meet your producing partner in film school?

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Um, I actually, I didn't. He and I grew up very close to each other, just outside of Atlanta, but we didn't have much interaction growing up. I knew who he was. Uh, he went down to Florida State to study journalism, and then he moved to Los Angeles. And I was actually, um, I had written a script for a short film that got financed and I needed a producer. And I, I knew him just because I remembered who he was. And we sat down and had dinner one night and I asked him to quit his job at a post house and do that film. And it kind of led us on this thing, yeah.

• 1:20:56Rich Roll?

  That's amazing. So, so you made that short film and then you made the documentary?

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  We made, so we made that short film and it was a wild film because, you know, we, we filmed with, with children and live animals and, um, we were in the Denali Peaks in Alaska. It was this real trial by fire. It was very intense film.

• 1:21:13Rich Roll?

  Like, high production value short film, not like, like in the basement short film?

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and stressful. The process was stressful. And in that process, I, you just begin, you just see who someone is. And I, I just clicked with him. He- Just, he just brings to the table fundamentally the things that I don't and it just works together. So when we finished that film, we created a little creative company together, just the two of us, called Untold, and really just invented that company with no other idea or business model than we just want to keep making stuff together, like this is working. And yeah, the first feature that we did was that first documentary.

• 1:21:54Rich Roll?

  Right, and did that go on the festival circuit?

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  It really didn't. That was a very small film. I mean, it was very personal and therapeutic and life-changing. It got picked up by a distribution partner and put out there. But we didn't do a whole lot with it, partly because we jumped right on to the true cost. Like, it was the day we locked that cut and turned it into our distributor, you know, the next day I picked up this newspaper. So it's a small film, it's out there in the world, but it's...

• 1:22:22Rich Roll?

  It's an amazing story, though, to, you know, hear you talk about just literally having an idea based on, you know, reading an article and being emotionally impacted by, you know, the tragedy in Bangladesh. Fast-forwarding to, you know, not only being on the red carpet it can, but the impact that, you know, this movie has had in the world. You know, as a creative person, that must be incredibly gratifying. But beyond that, you know, I want to get into a little bit about, you know, the impact that the movie has had, like, is there any, have you seen change? I mean, I think you just went, didn't you speak at the UN? Something like, tell me about that.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've done, there's a group called Fashion for Development with UN that we were with in New York, that they're kind of, again, they're on the very high-end, you know, the top models, the top designers, end of the spectrum, trying to push and promote change. Yeah, there's been a lot. It's really interesting when I think about that question, because I think, if I'm being honest with you, I feel, and I don't know if this is just part of the creative process or what it is, but I feel, sitting here today... Disappointed that there hasn't been more profound change. I could talk about all the things that are being done and all that, and I think it's hard to

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  measure some of these ideas being put into, you know, motion. I think there's a level of awareness. There's certainly, I mean, the film's been screened in fashion schools around the world. It's been, there's all, I could just go down the list of the ways it's being used, and I'm proud of that, so I'm not trying to undermine that. At the end of the day, the cynic in me, and at the same time, the optimist in me says, I think the film ultimately leads to a very dangerous intersection. And I think you alluded to it earlier, where some of the questions I naively began to ask in this film about fashion have their roots in business and economics and the way that we're organizing the world.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  And I think while we're pushing and promoting all sorts of reform, and there's, I'm not, again, I'm not undermining that. There's people that are working in these supply chains. There's NGOs, there's people that have locked arms with us. There's people that are undercover right now. There's people that are doing profound work to say, let the top come down, but we're gonna like just fight to get people organized in these countries, to get, you know, the bar raised. But they are just meeting unbelievable resistance, because this is a system that's still making an absolute fortune. And it doesn't bother, or it doesn't show up on the radar for most people. And I think when you're making this film, truthfully, and again, this is maybe naively, you think this is so scandalous what's taking place.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  This is so, this has disrupted my life in such a significant way that I just need to put it out there to the world. And I think it's been an interesting, challenging, evolving series of months for me to begin to look towards what's next, and what I'm gonna use the rest of my life for, to say, okay, awareness and storytelling, and, you know, so powerful. And then also, like, how can I not just stop there? Like, how can we begin as storytellers to, to do these things, and also really not fall short of re-

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Thinking some of these deeply held beliefs and assumptions and attacking them and fighting them and staying on them because they do take time. So I'm kind of in the middle of that right now.

• 1:25:53Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, I appreciate your honesty about the disappointment, you know, but when you look at like, there's a scene at the end of the movie where you show this footage from Black Friday and people are just losing their shit and just going absolutely bananas. I mean, it's chaos, right? At like probably six in the morning or seven in the morning when the doors to whatever department store that is, you know, open up. And this is what you're dealing with. Like, these people like are about as far away from the message of the true cost as anyone is going to be. How are we gonna get, how are you gonna be able to, you know, penetrate their consciousness and get those people who are just maniacally shopping out of their minds to, you know, think differently

• 1:26:34Rich Roll?

  about this. Meanwhile, the movie tips your hand or, you know, culture's hand to this industry and says loud and clear like, you're under threat. So what are they gonna do? Well, they're gonna marshal all their, you know, massive resources to protect the base and ensure that, you know, they're taking actions to maintain the status quo, right?

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I think that's incredibly true. And I think we've felt some of the backlash from that. We felt some of these major conventions and conferences about ethical sustain, you know, it's like this year even more than last year, uh, you know, they're, they're totally sponsored by, you know, one company and it, you know, there's such a, there's a really driving force. I don't think the fashion industry is clueless at all that this is, that this is a conversation.

• 1:27:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  But I think, you know, at the end of the day, and I don't know, I, I, I mean, I'm more interested in your thoughts on this than mine, but you said the word consciousness. I think that's, that's what I came to in this whole story. I came to beyond political change and pressures and storytelling and all these things like,

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  At the end of the day, I think what we're all in here is this situation where we have to see a significant increase in human consciousness and rather quickly because the stakes really are high. And that's not me, that's just true. So, how do you invite people into the kind of change or the kind of life that I believe would be actually more meaningful and better for them without it being this, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think that issue of consciousness, and that permeates your work, and it's like, it's the thing of like, there's something deeper going on here. And when you see those people rushing into that store on Black Friday, that hits you. You're like, this is beyond just a business model. This is actually, this is about consciousness.

• 1:28:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I don't even know how to, you know, respond to that. I mean, it's so clear that it's about consciousness. And the method for, you know, tapping into, you know, tapping into that and connecting with people in a manner in which you can, you know, get through to them and actually shift that awareness is, you know, obviously the ultimate question, right? But there's nothing more powerful than the moving image. You know what I mean? Much more powerful than a podcast, or, you know, getting up and talking. And I think, you know, for me, it makes me think a lot about effective ways of communicating, right?

• 1:29:04Rich Roll?

  What is the best way to get through to somebody? And, you know, everybody, we were talking about this before the podcast, like, everybody has their own method. Every activist has their own voice and their own method, you know? And I've said this before, but, you know, you have animal rights activists who are screaming and yelling and, you know, doing things in a certain way. That's not my style of communication. I have a very different style. But I think, I think you have to...

• 1:29:35Rich Roll?

  I think you have to demonstrate through your words and your work and your actions and your daily life, a way of living that, like you said, is raising your daily experience, the quality of your daily experience. But you have to express that in a way that's not only accessible and welcoming, but also, for lack of a better word, like, cool. You have to use the tools that Madison Avenue is using to convince you to go buy fast fashion. Take, you know, a tip from that, you know, that rulebook and use it for, you know, the purposes of raising consciousness, right? Instead of attacking it, like, well,

• 1:30:17Rich Roll?

  what are they doing? What they're doing is working, right? So let's, let's try some of that, but do it in a constructive way.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  I think that's profound. And I think what I, I think what I'm experiencing right now is what you just said. Like I, I like you have found a style, you know, you have found a voice. And I think what I'm doing in this film as a person, you know, aside from the film is I think I'm trying to hone in on that style. And I'm trying to, and and walking away from the film, I feel like we hit, we hit a nerve. We, we, we did something that that's been powerful. And the, the creative part of me just wants to ruthlessly keep getting better at that.

• 1:30:52Rich Roll?

  How else has it impacted your life personally, other than making you think, you know, more deeply about your consumer choices?

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's, I mean, yeah, I mean, on the very practical level, it's, it's changed the way we, we buy clothes and the conversations we're having with our kids and, and all that. I think on, on a broader level from that, though, it has, it has raised the bar of the profound opportunity that, that my life sits in. I think to spend time with so many people in different parts of the world that don't have access to the same, not just resources, just actual opportunity. You come back to your life here, and it's, it's not a sense of guilt. I don't, I don't feel that. I feel every day waking up, though,

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  a heightened awareness to the fact that I'm in a position, globally speaking, of enormous influence. And the question of how to use that influence, you know, five years ago, two years, three years ago, would have been like, I want to use that to build a big career. I want to use that to... And I still have every bit of that in me like everyone, but there is this other voice now that sort of always is speaking up, remembering and reminding me that I have the potential to actually use these tools and these abilities that I have to do something profound. And I don't think I felt that before making this film. I don't think, I hadn't

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  traveled internationally to the extent that we did, and I just hadn't seen the stakes. I hadn't seen what was actually playing out and how relatively my life fit into that equation. And I'm still wrestling with that. Truthfully, I still, there's still days where I wanna, you know, quit what we're doing and go hand out food. You know, it's like, I'm still in that really uncomfortable place, but there's something wonderful about it being a bit more uncomfortable now.

• 1:32:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you can't go backwards, right? And yet, you have to acknowledge that you live in the world, you know? It's like, I don't know where these microphones were made, and here's an iPhone, and I fly on airplanes, and I drive a car, and all these sorts of things that just come part and parcel with living in, you know, modern, Western society. And I'm sure if you trace back the modes of production of any number of things that I see sitting on this table here, you're gonna go on a similar journey, right? That you went on with garments. So, I don't think it's about being perfect. I think it's about being, trying to be better.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:33:26Rich Roll?

  If that's incremental, or if that's, you know, a big leap for you, it's more a matter of signing up for that and going on that journey.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's incredibly, it's incredibly true, and that's how it's played out in my life. It has been a gateway, and it has opened me up to all these other ideas. I mean, it's, I began asking questions about food. I began to ask questions about, it's like, I began to move in a direction that...

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  I hope continues and one that I wasn't on before this.

• 1:33:55Rich Roll?

  So what is the primary takeaway that you want the audience to, you know, gather from the experience of watching the movie?

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that we're all living at a really special moment in history. And I think we have the ability to look at the impact we're having on the world. And we have the ability to be a part of the kind of world we want to have or to be a part of the destruction that we say we're against. And something as small as clothes, something as simple as a T-shirt, that act actually does add up to have a profound impact. And the film is just my invitation to just consider the possibility that you're far more than a consumer, that you're far more than someone that just walks down the aisle, that you actually vote, you choose, and that you can be a part of something bigger.

• 1:34:50Rich Roll?

  What do you say to, you know, the average person who maybe is listening, who just, you know, like, they're just, they're working a job, they got kids like you and I do. You know, maybe they're not making that much money. And it's like, look, man, you know, my kids go through clothes like crazy. And, you know, I can't afford to, you know, go to wherever, you know, boutique shop. And, you know, how am I supposed to make this function?

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and I relate to that. I mean, I have four kids, they're all young, they grew out of clothes.

• 1:35:18Rich Roll?

  Way too young to have four kids.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  And I make documentaries, so I, you know, I'm in a very practical.

• 1:35:25Rich Roll?

  Highly lucrative.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, someone lied to me about, right, no. No, this is very practical stuff. And I, the last thing I'd want to feel is that this is just, you know, I, you know, idealistically, you know, above people's everyday experience. I think this stuff's really difficult every day. And I think it's, it's for me, a matter of, when it comes to clothing in particular, rethinking the way that you, you interact with clothes more than being perfect on every single item coming from a boutique. So I'm not perfect, like, our kids. Wear clothes and they wear out of them and we're buying as much as we can secondhand, which is getting easier and easier profoundly for kids. There's even sites now where you can buy and you can send back.

• 1:36:11Rich Roll?

  Oh, there is?

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  It's really cool, like exchanges.

• 1:36:13Rich Roll?

  What are some of the sites? Or maybe you can send them to me and I can put them in the show notes.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  I'll send you because there's actually just a new one that I saw this week that I think looks like the best one yet, but we've been experimenting with some different ones. So there's very practical things, but also I think just, you know, what you said of just not the aim, not being on perfection. It just being on, you know, is my, is my son wearing something that my daughter can wear that I might have handed back in, you know, is my, could we, how much do we need, you know, could we actually, and for me or for any adult, like, could I invest a little bit more into something that I'm going to have and hold on to versus something that's going to keep me on that conveyor belt of cheap

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  throwaway stuff? And, and yeah, and honestly, it doesn't have to be, I don't think it has to be a huge financial burden. And I'm saying that very practically, like, to me, it's been about lowering the amount of consumption a little bit to translate that, that space financially and otherwise into making better choices. And like, let it be fun. Like, my wife and I got into a thing where we would, we'd start to look for things. We'd go, because it's like, we would find and interact with all these great brands doing high stuff, and we couldn't afford them. So we had to begin to find ways to, you know, make good choices, but also make it work for us.

• 1:37:33Rich Roll?

  The stuff in the vintage shops is cooler, anyway.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  It's awesome. No, it's incredible. And if you live in major cities, and I didn't notice before making the film, if you live in major cities, the, the increase in really cool secondhand clothing stores is, is incredible. And it's not a sacrifice to say that I buy stuff secondhand. It's like, I actually, I really love it. I really love it.

• 1:37:54Rich Roll?

  So how do you communicate to your kids about this kind of stuff?

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Well, it's really funny. My kids-

• 1:37:59Rich Roll?

  How old are they?

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  The oldest is eight and the youngest is, uh, four. So, uh, they're very young and it's very interesting for them to understand like what I'm doing for work. And it was very interesting when I was making the film, um, you know, to come home and, and try to communicate to them, uh, you know, about the places I was going and who I was interacting with. They still are constantly in a state of disappointment that I don't make, you know, the movies they see on billboards. They always ask like, "Did you make Finding Dory, Dad?" And when I say no, there's just this genuine like, "Why, why not?"

• 1:38:32Rich Roll?

  Deflation, yeah.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  No, but I think we, we're just trying to have a conversation with them that is just one that says, you know, "Everything we wear, um, was touched by human hands. That people made it. So let's find out about it. Let's find out who made it. Let's look at the tag. Let's find out the country. Let's try..." You know what I mean? It's an amazing thing to just begin. It's like a geography lesson for us. And it's also, when it's a, you know, a, a company that we really love, it just opens up this conversation that I frankly, you know, never had growing up.

• 1:39:05Rich Roll?

  Right. What was the biggest, like, sort of shocking thing that you discovered in the journey of making this movie that you didn't expect?

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  I think the most, the most personally powerful thing, because, you know, the numbers are astronomical and they're, they're in the film and the, you know, you can, you can know this stuff on paper and you can look at the stats and the figures and I could just click down the list. But I think if I, if I'm being honest, for me, it was the experience of the time that we spent with Shima, the, the, the mother, um, garment worker in Dhaka, um, whose story kind of unfolds in, in the midst of the film. And I think, I, I just think there's something about seeing that level of poverty through the lens of working poor. People who are working more hours than I work in a week.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  People who are leaning in with every bit of their energy to create some kind of life for them and their children. And to see them robbed of- Some of the most basic human dignity and yet be some of the most resilient, powerful people. I didn't expect that. Like, one of the reasons that Shima's in the film is Shima is the antidote to that sort of Western storytelling of like, here's the poor, pitiful garment worker in the factory.

• 1:40:28Rich Roll?

  Right, the victim.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  The victim. That's probably what shocked me the most. Here's a person who has been born into the most inopportune place in the equation, a person who has lived through and is living through stuff that you and I don't even dream of.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  And yet is so, there's a bravery, a boldness, you know, she, the work she's doing with the union, we even offered as the film was coming out to pull her out of that factory so she could be in a more comfortable place with another one of these companies. And she turned it down because she said, no, I'm doing something there that's really significant. That, I don't know if it's just the personal nature, or if it's the looking another human being in the eye or spending that amount of time, but that, that sense of fight, that sense of drive, that sense of, I think what it did for me is it made me feel like this isn't all an issue of rich Westerners need to figure out and solve these problems. It's like,

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  we actually need to begin to let the people that are affected most more into the dialogue because they have some really good ideas. They have some, and they're, and they're willing to do the work to fight on behalf of their own fate. We don't have to do all that for them. We just have to stop boxing them out from being heard.

• 1:41:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was really powerful. I mean, it isn't a victim narrative. Like, she's, you know, very empowered. And when you see the lengths to which, you know, she's willing to sacrifice for a better life for her child and the decisions that she's making and the organizational activities and all of that, it's like. You know, let's, let's create some structure around people like her to allow, you know, improvement to, you know, take root and, and grow.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:42:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, amazing. All right, so if people are wanting to learn more, you know, about these issues, of course, watch the movie and I got a few more things I want to say about that, but you know, what are some of the organizations that are out there? I mean, you highlight certain, you know, activists throughout the movie, but you know, who are some of the people that are, you know, going to bat to try to make change in this world?

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's, there's so many of them. We kind of put together a few different resources on our site that is really just connecting people based on their area of interest. So, you know, someone might watch this and be really, you know, might be the chemical thing and, you know, them connecting to, to Greenpeace and their work with Detox and that campaign. So there's different offshoots, you know, there's a lot of, this is a huge topic. I think Fashion Revolution Day, to me, continues to stand as one of the most powerful voices, sort of connecting the dots between a lot of the different activities and they, they've sort of encapsulated some of the most powerful campaigners into a forum that really gives them voice.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  So I think if people look at Fashion Revolution Day, there's a, there's an extraordinary amount of information, of facts and, you know, data, but also entry points for, for activism.

• 1:43:35Rich Roll?

  On the legislative front, is there any activity at all on the Hill that is, you know, percolating around this idea of combating the self policing, you know, nature of this business?

• 1:43:47Speaker 01

  It's so hard. There's not currently. There was, there was some very good legislation several years back that was, it had unbelievable resonance with the American population. I think it was like upwards of 70, I think it was high 70s of approval for just some basic, you know, simple changes like we've been discussing. And it, and it was looking at, and this is the area that I think that we need to look at it on, is the area Of imports. So you can't really go around and police the world in the in the system that we have set up right now, but we're a huge customer. And so we have a huge opportunity as a lot of developed countries do when things come in to have a whole different way of evaluating.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  And and we we really do get to set those rules and the market, if you believe in market forces, then great, believe in the fact that they respond to us creating, you know, change there. So that's what the legislation was. It was really hopeful. There's a bunch of very well-known politicians now especially that were that were behind it. And it was really lobbied to death. And I think I and a lot of people want to see that brought back in a huge way. It's it's as difficult as it sounds, but again, the approval from people was unbelievably high, cross-pulled against different types of, you know, different places all over the country. So I'm hopeful to see that that reintroduced.

• 1:45:07Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, it's challenging when, you know, the constituency isn't really the people and the constituency is the corporate interest that's at stake in whatever state, you know, whatever, you know, corporation resides in the state of that representative.

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:45:22Rich Roll?

  Right. But essentially, what you're saying is, if you can create restrictions on on imports such that, you know, any garment coming into the country, it has to be vetted and, you know, established that it was, you know, produced, manufactured, you know, in accordance with certain human rights and environmental parameters, that would be a huge leap forward.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. This is not a question of like, we don't have the technical know-how. This is in the it's like, yes, this is complex. But if there is the impetus for this kind of change to happen, we have it in our toolset existing today to make these kinds of changes. And the other place that you can look, and there's been a lot of activism from some of the folks like John Hillary at War on One, who's featured in the film, around the TPP, because a lot of the trade agreement, the reason activists are so involved in the conversation around trade agreements is, again, trade agreements are one of the best places to write the rules on how are we going to do business in a way that protects the Poor and takes care of the environment and what we're seeing, you know, in agreement after

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  agreement after agreement is moving further towards business interests and further away from protecting the commons, protecting the poor. So that's another point of entry if someone is really fired up about this stuff and wants to look into it, look into trade agreements and, and the advocacy that's going on around those because you will find these issues embedded in the middle of those.

• 1:46:49Rich Roll?

  Beautiful man. Well, the movie is fantastic. You did a brilliant, amazing job. And like I said, it's, it's not just about the fashion industry, the garment industry, fast fashion. It is about human rights. It's about the environment. It's about our relationship to the planet and ultimately it's about consciousness, right? Raising consciousness. And I was very moved and impacted by it. I highly strongly suggest everybody listening, check it out. Uh, I know it's on Netflix. Is that the best place for people that you want people to watch it?

• 1:47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, Netflix I think is the most accessible place.

• 1:47:22Rich Roll?

  But it's on iTunes and all these.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  iTunes, Amazon. It's, it's, it's all over.

• 1:47:25Rich Roll?

  Wherever you consume your VOD content. And is that across the planet or?

• 1:47:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. I mean, those are hugely international. We're in, yeah, basically every country. And if you're in a country that for some reason doesn't have one of those on-demand platforms, if you go to our site, truecostmovie.com, there's a player there that will let you rent it for a couple bucks and that really is truly global. You shouldn't have an issue streaming that.

• 1:47:51Rich Roll?

  Right, that's cool. You probably make more money if they do that, right?

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  Someone does.

• 1:47:56Rich Roll?

  Is it better for you? Oh, someone does. Did you, did you sell the movie to a distributor, beyond, or are you?

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  We sold rights. So we sold certain rights to Netflix. We sold certain rights. We kind of, it got parceled out in different regions, different areas. And yeah, it's still, it's still working. I'm, I'm hopeful that we'll, I wanna, I wanna recoup the investment that people put into it, but I think, I think we're on track to do that.

• 1:48:18Rich Roll?

  Cool. And so what are you working on now? Like what's next?

• 1:48:21Speaker 01

  I'm working on a new film that is like the most exciting thing I've ever done and I'm dying to talk about it, but I can't talk about it too much and I hate saying that. That's not because it's super important. It's just because from a journalistic standpoint, we're actually, it's very, very helpful in this new film that there be nothing out there about it. But I'll just say it's a continuation of these ideas. It's into a new topic, a new arena, but same, same approach. And I were eight weeks into production right now and it is, I just love it.

• 1:48:54Rich Roll?

  That's awesome, man. Well, I can't wait to check it out and hopefully you'll come back here and tell us all about it when it's done, right?

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  I'd love to.

• 1:49:02Rich Roll?

  Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much. This was really fantastic. Super great to meet you and I just love the film and wish you success in everything that you're doing, man. We need more young people, young filmmakers out, you know, making movies about important issues. And so I applaud you for that. Thanks.

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

• 1:49:20Rich Roll?

  Cool. So if people want to connect with you, the best place, best places online to do that would be True Cost, the True Cost.

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  Just TrueCostMovie.com and then, yeah, from there you'll see our social stuff and you'll see everything else going on.

• 1:49:35Rich Roll?

  Right, right on, man. Thanks a lot.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  Thanks again.

• 1:49:38Rich Roll?

  Peace. Plants. So that should give you more than a few things to think about, right? That was awesome. Thank you, Andrew, for taking the time. That was just a fantastic conversation. And at the risk of sounding repetitive, everyone, please make a point of checking out The True Cost. It's streaming on Netflix or you can find it on iTunes, Amazon, and of course at TrueCostMovie.com. And definitely check out the episode page for show notes at RichRoll.com. I've got tons of cool stuff there to delve deeper into all of these issues that surround the garment industry and globalized supply chain economics and fast fashion and et cetera,

• 1:50:23Rich Roll?

  right? What else? Check out my YouTube channel and subscribe for vlogs and more, youtube.com/richroll. If you go to richroll.com, We've got all kinds of cool, plant-powered merch and schwag. We got signed copies of Finding Ultra and Plant Power Way. We got Plant Power t-shirts. We got running tech tees. We got stickers. We got schwag. Good stuff. I want to thank everybody who worked very hard to put on today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, all that good kind of techie stuff. Shawn Patterson, he does all the graphics every week. Thanks, Shawn. Chris Swan for production assistance. Chris also puts together all the show notes, which is a huge job. Thank you, Chris. And theme music by Analemma. Thanks for all the support,

• 1:51:05Rich Roll?

  you guys. Final thought. Every day, each and every one of us, myself included, make all kinds of purchases that we really don't think twice about. It never occurs to us to consider what went into this or that. And I've learned to do this with food, to really be more conscious about the choices that I'm making and be more informed about the chain of production. And that experience has spilled over into the choices that I make with respect to many of my garment purchases, informed by people like Andrew and his movie and Joshua Katcher, my conversations with him. But I still have a long way to go on this journey and to really mature into this. And I suspect you do as well. As humans,

• 1:51:49Rich Roll?

  of course, none of us, we're all very far from perfect in this regard. So this week, next time you find yourself at the store, at the mall, at Walmart, or Target, or H&M, or The Gap, or wherever, and you find yourself reflexively reaching out to grab that thing, take a beat and ask yourself a few questions. Where did this come from? How did it get here? What exactly went into this? I'm not saying you're going to get answers, but I think it's important to begin this process by taking the action of asking. And maybe you buy this thing, maybe you don't. But either way, when you go home, maybe go online

• 1:52:30Rich Roll?

  and see what you can find out about that item, about that thing you bought or didn't buy. And either, I think, one of two things will happen. Either you're going to get answers and you're going to find out information about the production, where it was produced, what the conditions are of the factory, where it was produced, etc. Or you're not going to be able to find anything. And that might even be more revealing and interesting. I think it's a worthwhile practice, something I'm going to do this week, and I hope you guys do as well. That's it. See you guys soon. Peace. Plants.