Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel A Secret I Can't Even Tell My Therapist About this episode Their marriage was turbulent and the divorce is now two years behind her—but she still can’t let him go. Torn between the part of her that knows it was unhealthy and the part that still longs for him, she’s preparing to see her ex again, keeping it a secret from everyone—including her therapist. Esther helps her delve into the importance of reconciling the different parts of herself and the role of her current therapist in her journey.
Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected] .
Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter
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Transcript 5,985 words · 14 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Esther Perel? In this following session, we discuss assault. And I want you to know this before you listen.
0:13 Esther Perel? So, why are we here? What made you say, "Okay, I need this"? Why now? And what would make it helpful?
0:25 Speaker 01 I suppose, I kind of feel like I have two opposing parts that I have not been able to reconcile for years.
0:40 Speaker 01 One part is this logical part, the part that listens to my friends and family. And that part says, "My past relationship was unhealthy. And I should not be with him. I am not currently with him." We were together for nine years, married for three, have been divorced and lived in separate states for two years now. And then there is this deeper feeling part that can't let go of him.
1:24 Speaker 01 That I have never felt so lit up,
1:32 Speaker 01 desired, excited, seen with anyone else before.
1:41 Speaker 01 And so, why now?
1:47 Speaker 01 He, through all this time away, has stayed pretty constant in his love for me. He has also dated other people in the meantime. But he reaches out every few months.
2:03 Speaker 01 And we started talking again, maybe two weeks ago. And I know how this sounds.
2:14 Speaker 01 Tell me. That everything he says sounds right. Obviously, I'm not there, so I can't. I can only speak to what he's told me. But it sounds like he has made major changes in his life. He owns up and takes responsibility for the worst parts of our relationship. He seems to be reckoning with those things within himself. And so we have been talking about spending a weekend together in a few weeks.
3:10 Speaker 02 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
3:53 Speaker 03 I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands, deep tech that changes the weather.
4:12 Speaker 04 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
4:15 Speaker 03 We've got hardware that helps blind people see and dairy.
4:19 Speaker 05 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
4:22 Speaker 03 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
4:43 Esther Perel? Does he know you're here?
4:45 Speaker 01 Yes.
4:46 Esther Perel? How did that come up?
4:48 Speaker 01 I told him because I wanted to say everything to him before I came to you. So, um, my therapist, close to two years ago, shortly after I left, had me write a breakup letter to him.
5:11 Speaker 01 And this letter was a collection of the worst things in our relationship, the worst moments, a sort of justifying to myself and him or reminding myself of why I left.
5:32 Speaker 01 And so I recently read that letter to him before coming in here today because I wanted to hear how he would react being reminded of those worst moments. And I think he reacted well, you know? He was quiet. It was clearly hard for him to hear those things.
6:00 Speaker 01 And he apologized and owned up to it. You know, when we were together, I often told him it was like there was two people within him. There was the person I was in love with, that I knew loved me. And then there was this other part that I called the stranger. And this other part would take over and all of a sudden talk to me like I was the enemy. And that was very combative, you know? Led to a lot of arguments.
6:41 Speaker 01 And so I asked him, what happened to that part? Where, where is the stranger? Or how did you
6:51 Speaker 01 deal with that? And he said, it's still there. I recognize that it's still there, but I have to. It's a combination of making decisions, putting myself in the right place to not get sucked into that and to recognize what triggers are likely to bring that part of him forward.
7:17 Esther Perel? Does your therapist, he, she, they, know that you, she, does she know you're here?
7:23 Speaker 01 No, no one else knows.
7:24 Esther Perel? Okay, does she know you're going, you're planning to have a weekend with him?
7:28 Speaker 01 No.
7:29 Esther Perel? Okay. Does the logical, the contingent who lives on the logical side of you, do they know anything?
7:37 Speaker 01 No, no one else knows. No family, no friends. Uh, he is the only person who knows.
7:46 Esther Perel? Okay. So the emotional, passionate side of you is having a secret with the logical side. One is having a secret of the other. Okay.
8:04 Speaker 01 So
8:08 Speaker 01 I suppose I want to be clear that I am not a victim. If I ever was, I am not anymore and I will never be again.
8:20 Speaker 01 I know that leaving was the best thing for me. And I have done a lot of work on myself, a lot of growth.
8:35 Speaker 01 I feel like a completely different person than I was when I was with him and certainly than I was when we met over ten years ago.
8:45 Esther Perel? Can I ask you for me to have a sense of a few of the things that are in the breakup letter?
8:52 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
8:54 Esther Perel? Is it okay?
8:56 Speaker 01 Yes, yes. Um, talks a lot about fighting. There was a lot of fighting, frequent arguments. Often, I didn't know why we were fighting. Why he saw me as such a bitch? He seemed to react to me in a way like I was looking to hurt him, which I wasn't most of the time.
9:26 Speaker 01 The first time that I noticed some disconnect or that he, he wasn't emotionally supportive, um, this was in our very first year together and I was finishing up grad school. And I was going into my very last final. And that morning, he's sitting outside, smoking a cigarette, looking at his phone. And rather than kind of send me off in love, he said, oh, will you go buy me a cup of coffee before you go?
10:04 Speaker 01 And I was so stunned and confused. I don't have time for that. Why are you asking me to do something for you on such a big morning for me?
10:15 Esther Perel? For exactly that reason.
10:18 Speaker 01 What do you mean?
10:19 Esther Perel? You're too busy with yourself. You have too big a day. It's about you.
10:26 Esther Perel? It's about your professional autonomous pursuit. It symbolizes you being able to do things without me. It highlights my dependence on you. It highlights your independence from me. And I don't like the fact that you are completely involved in something that's important to you when what should be most important to you is me.
10:53 Speaker 01 Yes. And so you may not be shocked to find out that that attitude continued.
11:04 Speaker 01 And at the time, I had never been in therapy. And so my kind of untreated, whatever, childhood wounds. I was at that time looking for a source of identity in another person.
11:23 Esther Perel? How old were you?
11:25 Speaker 01 I was twenty, I had just turned twenty four.
11:28 Esther Perel? Okay. And how much is the age difference?
11:30 Speaker 01 He is ten years older than me.
11:32 Esther Perel? Okay. So maybe it's not only about childhood wounds, maybe it's also about being young and immature.
11:39 Speaker 01 Yes.
11:40 Esther Perel? I mean, they may be both, but just to put things in a developmental perspective as well.
11:45 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I had decided that I did not want to stay in the field that I was in graduate school for. But I also didn't have a another plan. And so this guy who came along had a very, was very charming, had a career of his own. The idea of, oh, I don't have to decide, I will attach myself to this person and that will be what I do.
12:19 Esther Perel? He will be my project. And if he is not feeling well about us, my project will be to find every way possible to reassure him, make him feel secure, make myself feel deserving of him, make him appreciate me.
12:36 Esther Perel? Anymore?
12:38 Speaker 01 All of that. And I stopped working on myself, stopped investing in my own social life, my own career, and became very resentful of him. That our life, you know, after a couple of years, when when we kind of stalled out professionally, developmentally, um, it was all his fault in my mind. If, if he would just do X, Y, and Z, then I would be happy.
13:17 Esther Perel? If he would do what, for example?
13:21 Speaker 01 Make more money. Work harder in his own career. Treat me better. Allow me to do whatever I wanted. If that meant sit on the couch all day. And he should love me anyway. And be thankful to be with me. So.
13:48 Speaker 01 You know, we both contributed.
13:53 Esther Perel? Thank you. I appreciate and I highly respect your insights, your honesty. Your ability to see how it takes two to create some of this.
14:08 Esther Perel? He became your project and you needed him to justify all the sacrifices you made.
14:16 Esther Perel? And so now he had to perform on your behalf. So that you would not be as resentful for what you had given up.
14:24 Speaker 01 Exactly.
14:25 Esther Perel? If I am no longer me and you have to fill me, then I need you to be a double dose of everything, at least.
14:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:36 Esther Perel? And the less I liked myself and the more resentful I was toward him.
14:40 Speaker 01 Yes.
14:42 Esther Perel? And him?
14:45 Speaker 01 You know, resentment built back up because I think he initially was attracted to me because I was smart, driven, independent, had friends. And I, over the course of a few years,
15:06 Speaker 01 stopped being all those things.
15:09 Speaker 01 But I told him he couldn't say that to me.
15:13 Speaker 01 You can't criticize me.
15:16 Esther Perel? Because I made it look like I did this for you.
15:18 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:20 Esther Perel? And you are not giving me enough back and therefore you are never good enough.
15:26 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:27 Esther Perel? And so that becomes a relationship of two people who don't feel good enough.
15:32 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:32 Esther Perel? And who become very fused with each other and end up at each other's throats.
15:39 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:40 Esther Perel? Physically too?
15:43 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:45 Speaker 01 A few times.
15:48 Speaker 01 Mostly shoving.
15:52 Esther Perel? Can I ask you something? In the name of this really beautiful moment of accountability. Do the people who belong to what you call the logical part of me, do they see the dynamic? Or did they buy into mean guy, sweet woman?
16:16 Speaker 01 I mean, a few of my friends and family have used the word, you are perfect.
16:23 Speaker 01 They think I am perfect.
16:27 Speaker 01 And he's the bad guy.
16:31 Esther Perel? So the secret isn't necessarily that you're gonna see him. The secret is how either you've come to represent yourself or how the story was told back then.
16:43 Esther Perel? And so it becomes the story of abusive control, narcissistic guy, sweet victim, perfect woman, who needed to save herself. And your therapist, what story does she go by?
17:01 Speaker 01 I don't think she would describe me as perfect.
17:05 Esther Perel? Good.
17:08 Speaker 01 But I also think, at some point, I think,
17:15 Speaker 01 she decided he is irredeemable.
17:19 Esther Perel? He is irredeemable?
17:21 Speaker 01 Yes. I started seeing her with him. He actually found her. And we went together. And in the first few months, she helped us immensely. Our relationship got to the happiest point it had ever been.
17:43 Speaker 01 And then he went to rehab, checked himself in, decided the drinking was unsustainable. And then when he got out, he stopped trying to work on anything else. He seemed to kind of hold on to that sobriety as a kind of defense against doing any further work.
18:12 Speaker 01 So I kept going. And then the arguing continued. He slipped back into old patterns. He refused to go to therapy. And after listening to me cry and complain about his behavior for a very long time, she finally said, you see it. And then I couldn't avoid it anymore. And it felt like she was my last hope. That I couldn't get him to change on my own.
18:57 Speaker 01 And when it became clear that she couldn't help either, I knew I loved him, but I could not, I would not stay in that relationship as it was.
19:18 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.
19:33 Speaker 02 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
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21:53 Speaker 01 How did he react to you leaving? He was devastated, sobbed and cried and hugged me. But he also, he didn't fight me or try to convince me otherwise.
22:13 Speaker 01 And he has said since then that he wished he had put up more of a fight. But I actually really appreciated that he didn't. It made me feel like he was listening, like he heard me, like he respected my decision.
22:34 Esther Perel? And when you say the the patterns came back, you you're referring to what?
22:40 Speaker 01 He would kind of get in his own head.
22:45 Esther Perel? Um. Do you know why I just smiled?
22:51 Speaker 01 No.
22:53 Esther Perel? When you say the word pattern, you instantly think him.
23:02 Esther Perel? Now, he may come to you and tell you all the ways he has changed or what he's accountable for or how he understands what happened.
23:12 Esther Perel? But if when you use the word pattern, you instantly point finger at him,
23:18 Esther Perel? then the change is not reciprocal enough.
23:23 Esther Perel? It's just an observation. If the first word out of your mouth is he, then your frame hasn't shifted.
23:32 Speaker 01 I hear that. I hear that. So previously in our relationship, when I say that he would get into these kind of antagonistic moods and would pick a fight, and I was often left feeling like, why? Whoa, why are we fighting? Why were you offended by that? You are clearly hurt and defensive and kind of counter attacking. And in the early days, you know, I would try to reason with him. I would cry and think, oh, if he sees how much is he's hurting me, if I
24:17 Speaker 01 then he will realize what he's doing.
24:22 Speaker 01 That didn't matter. And then eventually I started fighting back. Well, fuck you. You know, if you're gonna talk to me that way, then I'm gonna punch back twice as hard. And.
24:39 Speaker 01 Surprise, none of those worked. So when he came back from rehab and started in with that old behavior, I had, was still in therapy, still working on myself and had enough growth, internal boundaries, backbone to just not engage.
25:03 Esther Perel? Got it.
25:03 Speaker 01 Not engage, not react. And then I watched him.
25:08 Esther Perel? Double down?
25:09 Speaker 01 Spin on his own, have the argument with himself. And I realized, oh, it's not, it's not about me. I am not a player in this game. You'll have the fight all by yourself. And so that's when I started to detach and kind of look at him with a sort of pity.
25:36 Speaker 01 And that was what led to the end.
25:42 Esther Perel? How much were the two of you living with this secret?
25:48 Esther Perel? Like, did people think you had a perfect, you were the perfect couple? Like, people think you're the perfect person?
25:54 Speaker 01 No, no. My friends have since told me that they didn't like the way he talked to me or treated me, or there was something that my dad asked me multiple times before we got engaged. Is this the one? Are you sure?
26:14 Speaker 01 But I knew they weren't crazy about him. I'm sure they did sense something in him or in our relationship that they thought was unhealthy. I think they also, he was scary to them. He's 10 years older. He's from another country. And so I think they were afraid or felt like he was going to, and I guess to some extent, he did kind of steal me away from them.
26:49 Esther Perel? Was there a part of you that wanted to get away from them?
26:53 Speaker 01 Yes.
26:54 Esther Perel? Can we talk about that?
26:55 Speaker 01 Yes.
26:58 Speaker 01 Years ago, I would have told you that I had the best childhood. My childhood was perfect. And so, why wasn't my life going? What was wrong with me? I had the best family, the best childhood. And a previous therapist helped me see that. She called it emotional enmeshment with my mother, who saw me as an extension of her, a little her. I was her best friend, her confidant, her therapist. She shared so much about why my dad was not a good husband.
27:44 Speaker 01 And they eventually got divorced shortly after I left high school.
27:52 Speaker 01 So, I moved halfway across the country, I think, to get some breathing room.
28:02 Speaker 01 And my dad was also very controlling, authoritarian, rigid.
28:14 Speaker 01 And I ran away to have some space, to find myself. And this relationship was the first big decision I made, not because I should, or anybody else wanted me to, but because it's what I wanted.
28:37 Esther Perel? And then you went and recreated the same emotional enmeshment?
28:41 Speaker 01 Yes.
28:43 Esther Perel? You went with the attachment model that you knew?
28:47 Speaker 01 Yes. Okay. I lived with a lot of shame through our relationship.
28:59 Speaker 01 Shame that I wasn't thriving, doing enough for me. Shame that I was allowing behavior and treatment from him that I know my family and friends would not be okay with.
29:20 Speaker 01 And since leaving, I have addressed a lot of that. I'm independent, I have a
29:31 Speaker 01 thriving social circle. My life is filled with a lot of love and energy. And I still have a bit of shame about the way I feel about him.
29:44 Esther Perel? Like, I shouldn't be curious, I shouldn't be loving, I shouldn't be wondering, I shouldn't be longing for him. If I really...
29:54 Speaker 01 If I am a strong, healthy, independent woman, I would not feel this way.
30:05 Esther Perel? Can I try something from the other side? Since you said, "I live with parts of me, different voices, different pulls and pushes."
30:16 Esther Perel? A part of you says, "If I was a really strong, independent woman, I would have none of these inclinations toward him, I would know better." And another part says, "I am such a smart and strong woman. It cannot be that I made such a mistake, that I was so wrong in my judgment, that the one time I finally decide something that I want and not that I should or that everybody's expecting from me, it went all wrong."
30:52 Esther Perel? What if I knew something that nobody else knows?
30:59 Speaker 01 Yes, yes, um, I
31:05 Speaker 01 I do think I'm smarter than the average bear and
31:12 Speaker 01 I can't help but think there's something other people don't see.
31:21 Speaker 01 I've got some inside track here that I guess I I haven't been able to explain to the people who love me.
31:33 Esther Perel? What's it like to hear me say it? Because you don't, you often voice that one out loud.
31:41 Speaker 01 Um, it feels a little bit like, ah, you see it too. And I have an immediate suspicion that there's
31:54 Speaker 01 a but coming, or or that it's foolish for me to think that, that you are highlighting it so that I can hear how foolish that sounds.
32:06 Esther Perel? That's not what I was thinking, actually.
32:10 Esther Perel? I often have a sense that when people
32:14 Esther Perel? commit to someone,
32:17 Esther Perel? they are making an engagement with that person.
32:21 Esther Perel? But I often find that they're also making a bargain with themselves. This person will not lie to me, will not cheat on me, will not abandon me. This person will see what no one else has seen, you know, I know something, you know, with an almost grandiose sense of confidence. I know something that no one, the inside track that you're talking about. And what is hardest sometimes for people to disconnect with is less the person that they are leaving than the conviction that led them to that person.
33:04 Speaker 01 I have tried so hard to let this go. I mean, I have drawn or tried to draw such a hard line with myself since I left. That is the past, that was not healthy. You cannot go back. The future is ahead of you, in front of you. There are other people.
33:34 Esther Perel? But you can say to me and to yourself, "That conviction, I want to follow it. I'll take the chances." You know, the first time you left because you needed a root canal.
33:52 Esther Perel? You know, it's not what you wanted. It's what you thought you should do. And it's what other people wanted for you. This time, you'll see. If you stay, it'll be because you want. And if you don't stay, it will actually be the real departure.
34:12 Esther Perel? You will maybe have to take on the next level of emancipation, which is to tell yourself, your therapist, your friends, your family,
34:25 Esther Perel? "There's one more thing I need to do here." That I know from the outside will look a reversal, a regression, a lack of awareness, you know. And that may all be true. But you may say, "Despite all of that, I feel like I need to go. And now that I know more what I want, I want to go and decide this on my own and make that decision myself." And that's a conversation for you with your therapist too. So that you don't, you know, feel like, "I'm sneaking.
34:55 Esther Perel? I'm sneaking behind to..." You don't owe anybody. You know, I mean, in your mind, I'm sure you think, "These people all helped me leave and now I'm... You know, all they're gonna want is to hold me back. They see me plunge into the same cesspool, etc."
35:12 Esther Perel? But maybe you need a different leaving. See, your question is about, can there be a new start? And that's a possibility. But I want to add to it. And can there be a different kind of leaving?
35:30 Esther Perel? You don't have to decide a thing right now. You just have to watch two people come back in a conversation with a whole different level of accountability. When people come back and all they say is "I'm sorry", the first question to ask is "For what"?
35:50 Esther Perel? How much do they actually see and have taken in and taken stock and taken responsibility for their contribution to what happened? How much do they see who they were in the relationship and what they did?
36:05 Esther Perel? To just say "I'm sorry", not enough.
36:08 Esther Perel? To just talk about behaviors, not enough. Patterns, not enough. But the deep sense of understanding, clarity, responsibility, accountability, that's where it starts.
36:26 Esther Perel? But the issue of the secret is important because part of it is vis-à-vis him, the other part is vis-à-vis your entourage and your world to whom you say,
36:38 Esther Perel? "I need to know what I know."
36:41 Esther Perel? In some way, if I continue to just do what you all want me to do, I stay in the same pattern in which I grew up in. I continue to be compliant and resentful, rather than independent and accountable. Do you understand? Yes, yes, yes.
37:09 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.
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39:08 Esther Perel? Tell me what resonates for you in what I'm saying? What's useful? What stands out? What's irrelevant? What needs to be said with?
39:21 Speaker 01 What is new and feels empowering is to recognize the way I have continued the pattern of this Greek chorus is wiser than me, or I owe something to them, or I should do what they say. And kind of reclaiming some of my autonomy, that I don't have to justify myself to them or explain myself to them. And I certainly don't have to make life choices based on what
40:05 Speaker 01 take a poll and ask the audience.
40:12 Speaker 01 I would like to think about trusting myself, trusting my own decisions and knowing that I am the only one that has to live with the consequences of my decisions.
40:26 Speaker 01 And that feels new and different.
40:30 Esther Perel? It will be very different if you do it behind their back, because that's pseudo-autonomy.
40:40 Esther Perel? The point is, can you listen to them and listen to you? The audience sometimes does see something that you don't see. And because of that other voice that says, there's something here that only I know and I have a certainty about it. And, you know, there's a grandiosity to that piece. It accompanies itself with, I can take it. It's not as bad. I can change it. I'll manage to make the perfect concoction. So they see that too.
41:16 Esther Perel? You're smiling with your head, nodding. Big yeses.
41:20 Speaker 01 Yes.
41:20 Esther Perel? I just wanna make, yes.
41:22 Speaker 01 Yes.
41:22 Esther Perel? Okay, so you understand what I'm saying? If you're just gonna shut them out and say, you know, I know better.
41:30 Esther Perel? It's, I know something, I need to go check it. And I need you to stay close by me. Because I don't always have a good sense of when bad is bad.
41:43 Esther Perel? When dangerous is dangerous. When unprotected is unprotected, when abusive is abusive, when violent is violent, when...
41:50 Speaker 01 Uh huh.
41:52 Esther Perel? So, it's both and. I know.
41:58 Esther Perel? And I may not always know.
42:04 Esther Perel? You know, on some level, he's secondary to the plot. He's a minor plot in a bigger story.
42:13 Speaker 01 Yes.
42:14 Esther Perel? How did the two of you frame this gathering, this meeting?
42:20 Speaker 01 He has been kind of asking for something for a while. You know, he reaches out in emails and, um...
42:30 Esther Perel? But he reaches out for an opening or for a proper closure?
42:35 Speaker 01 For an opening. And I, um, I'm on a summer break from work. I have some free time. And I was feeling strong and impulsive and free. And I said,
42:57 Speaker 01 "Let's meet for a weekend. You fly here and we'll have a couple of days and I'm not going to tell anyone because they'll be upset and afraid and try to talk me out of it." I mean, I think my sister might lock me in her basement until I said I wouldn't go.
43:22 Esther Perel? But there's another way of saying this.
43:25 Esther Perel? It's not I won't tell anyone because they will. It's I won't tell anyone because it will activate the other part of me. And it will put me in such a state of ambivalence. And I find myself either in a state of denial, where I don't want to hear any of what they say, or in a state of ambivalence where it's hard to hold down to some of my own feelings because all I hear is what they say.
43:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, that if it stays a secret, I don't have to reconcile all these various voices and...
44:05 Esther Perel? And I say, or I suggest,
44:10 Esther Perel? that is the purpose of the meeting. This needs a proper closure before anything else. And that closure is not just about reviewing what happened between us. It's the reconciliation of these two voices.
44:29 Speaker 01 You know, I said at the beginning, I was hoping to kind of reconcile these two parts of myself. And before I even talk to anybody else, I
44:46 Speaker 01 I feel like I'm not as split
44:52 Speaker 01 within myself, like these two opposing sides can talk to each other, don't have to be in opposition. Then maybe they both bring useful insights.
45:06 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm, yep.
45:08 Speaker 01 And I can listen to both.
45:12 Esther Perel? Tell me, where is your therapist based?
45:16 Speaker 01 Los Angeles. And she's wonderful, you know, I started worrying that saying, I have the secret from her would... She's been incredible.
45:29 Esther Perel? I think that you take the session and you share it with her, and then you send us a voice note or together with her.
45:40 Esther Perel? I think that would be a very beautiful coming together of different sources of support.
45:47 Speaker 01 Yes, I love that idea.
45:50 Esther Perel? Many people have a therapist and come to do a podcast episode and to find ways to reconcile those two experiences is always important.
45:59 Speaker 01 Uh huh, yeah, I mean, she's so loving, but there is part of me that's terrified that this will hurt her feelings.
46:10 Esther Perel? Then you tell her that.
46:14 Esther Perel? That's exactly what you say is I'm, I feel like I'm letting you down.
46:18 Speaker 01 Yes.
46:19 Esther Perel? Like you worked so hard to help me extricate myself and here I am, you know, but I don't want to go behind your back. I want to actually use this to find my own confidence and not to feel that it can only exist if I'm hiding it from others.
46:38 Speaker 01 Yes.
46:38 Esther Perel? And you can, everything you said to me, there's nothing that a therapist here wouldn't want to know and hasn't heard.
46:49 Esther Perel? And, yes, every time a person is in a relationship that carries its shame and then they say they want to go back to it, they feel like they're betraying the therapist. But if they don't do that, then they feel that they're betraying themselves.
47:07 Speaker 01 Yes.
47:07 Esther Perel? And that definitely belongs in the conversation there and.
47:13 Speaker 01 Yes, yes.
47:15 Esther Perel? And if she says, I'm disappointed, yeah, she will never say I'm disappointed, but she may say, you know, what are you doing? Then you will say, I need to go and find out for myself because as long as I don't know it that I made the decision.
47:28 Esther Perel? Then I will always question and I will always live with the fantasy of there's a truth that I know that no one else does. And that fantasy does not allow me to actually connect with someone else.
47:44 Esther Perel? And on that note, I do have to go. Thank you so much.
47:49 Speaker 01 Thank you, thank you, thank you, yes.
47:51 Esther Perel? Bye bye.
47:52 Speaker 01 Goodbye.
48:10 Speaker 13 This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] . Where Should We Begin with Astaire Parel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?
48:54 Speaker 13 Are Astaire Parel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jaxel.
49:09 Speaker 02 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
49:52 Speaker 03 I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
50:03 Speaker 07 I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about middleware AI wrappers.
50:09 Speaker 03 Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.
50:18 Speaker 08 They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.
50:24 Speaker 03 We've got deep tech to change the weather.
50:26 Speaker 04 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
50:29 Speaker 09 What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like, one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.
50:37 Speaker 03 And dairy?
50:38 Speaker 05 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
50:41 Speaker 03 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
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