#343 – Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time

Roger Gracie is a legendary jiu jitsu competitor and MMA fighter. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: – Bambee: https://bambee.com and use code LEX to get free HR audit – Mizzen+Main: https://mizzenandmain.com and use code LEX to get $35 off – Blinkist: https://blinkist.com/lex to get 25% off premium – Athletic Greens: https://athleticgreens.com/lex to get 1 month of fish oil EPISODE LINKS: Roger’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/rogergracie/ Roger’s Website: https://rogergracie.com/ Roger’s Online Jiu Jitsu: https://rogergracietv.com/ Roger’s match against Marcus “Buchecha” Almeida: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L-Ni7bFAHg Watch full matches at FloGrappling: https://flograppling.com PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: – Check out the sponsors above, it’s the best way to support this podcast – Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman – Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman – Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman – LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman – Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman – Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here’s the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) – Introduction (07:26) – The moments before a match (15:17) – Confidence (29:43) – Greatest jiu jitsu match of all time (51:04) – Renzo Gracie (1:03:21) – Braveheart (1:04:44) – Self-belief (1:18:50) – Cross-collar choke (1:22:53) – Mount position (1:39:07) – How to progress in jiu jitsu (1:41:22) – Best submission in jiu jitsu (1:45:55) – The greatest competitor of all time (1:48:01) – Roger’s statistics (1:55:57) – MMA vs jiu jitsu (2:04:25) – Gordon Ryan (2:16:51) – John Danaher (2:19:23) – Bear fight (2:22:21) – Tie (2:32:53) – Advice for beginners (2:42:13) – Drilling (2:50:09) – Roger vs Bear, Lion, Gorilla, and Anaconda (2:55:14) – Advice for young people (3:05:02) – Love

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lex Fridman?

  The following is a conversation with Hajar Gracie, widely considered to be the greatest Jitsu competitor of all time. And now, a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We've got Bambi for HR services, Miz and Main for style, Blinkist for nonfiction, and Athletic Greens for nutrition. Delicious nutrition. Choose wisely, my friends. And now, onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make this interesting, but if you skip them, if you must, sinfully, with the regret in your heart, skip them. You don't have to have regret in your heart. Let go of regret. Live without regret, my friends.

• 0:45Lex Fridman?

  Please still check out the sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. This show is brought to you by Bambi, spelled B-A-M-B-E-E. It's an outsourced and automated human resources solution for businesses. It was built to give businesses a dedicated yet cost-effective human resource option at just 99 bucks per month. There's so many things involved in running a business, only some of which I deeply enjoy. Doing the innovation, the engineering, the details engineering, whether that's software, hardware, mechanical materials, all of it. I love the engineering. I love the early design stages when you're coming up with ideas. I even love the product design.

• 1:29Lex Fridman?

  So coming up with a short-term and long-term vision of how to design things, how to bring joy to the world by building cool stuff, and then doing that at scale, doing mass manufacturing. Even that is super interesting. But to make all of that work, you have to do all the sort of the glue, the cohesive chemistry that makes a business run. And a big part of that is managing the people. It's after all, the people that do all the magic in a business. And managing the people is what's in English called human resources. So you gotta use good tools for the job, great tools for the job, and hopefully affordable, cost-effective tools for that job, which is exactly what Bambi is. You can schedule your free conversation today.

• 2:14Lex Fridman?

  Go to bambee.com and type Lex under podcast when signing up. That's spelled B-A-M-B-E-E.

• 2:24Lex Fridman?

  This show is also brought to you by Miz and Amane, the maker of comfortable stylish dress shirts and other menswear that I'm currently wearing and I just popped my collar, like just because I'm feeling pretty good about this. I'm feeling stylish. I'm feeling sexy. This feels like an SNL skit. What was it? When the guy's like looking in the mirror and doing positive affirmations? I don't think I've ever looked in the mirror and said, "Boy, you're looking sexy today." The moment I am, I think I'm on a slippery slope to a place I don't want to be. But anyway, so I'm obviously doing it just for jokes. It feels comfortable. I just like

• 3:06Lex Fridman?

  the way it feels. I like the way it looks. My favorite thing to wear is a suit and tie for more formal or for when I'm doing more serious kinds of engagements like podcasts or presentations, or just something I want to take super seriously. And then the most relaxed thing is just a T-shirt, but in between that is a dress shirt. And for dress shirts, comfortable sexy dress shirts, I go to Miz and Amane. I highly recommend them. I obviously wear a black dress shirt. Right now, you can get a special discount. Just go to Miz and Amane and use promo code LEX. This show is also brought to you by Blinkist, my favorite app for learning new things. Blinkist takes key ideas from thousands of nonfiction books and condenses them down into 15 minutes

• 3:49Lex Fridman?

  that you can read or listen to. I'm not exactly sure why the pace of this segment of the program is being delivered at an increasingly fast pace. I wish I was able to talk this quickly during regular conversation. I think people criticize me for speaking too quickly. Oh, sorry. Well, that's a Freudian slip. Well, not a Freudian slip, but a misstatement. I think nobody's ever criticized me for speaking too quickly. Too much, maybe. Yes. Too slowly, yes. Boring and monotone, yes. Check, check, check, but not too quickly. I think because I'm really thinking on the spot a lot and I like the silence. I think

• 4:33Lex Fridman?

  the silence between words, at least for me.

• 4:37Lex Fridman?

  Helps me think. It also helps calm down the pace of the conversation where the other person can think. Oftentimes, the reason I'm talking is not necessarily to express an idea like I really, really want to express an idea, but it's really to express an idea in the service of the conversation, in the service of inspiring the other person to build on top of that idea. I really don't just want to sound smart or say something that I believe needs to be said. Most of the time, I'm trying to dance. I'm trying to be a good dance partner. So, anyway, all that said, the fuel, the catalyst for the being a good dance partner in conversation

• 5:21Lex Fridman?

  is wisdom. And I gain some of my wisdom to the small degree that I have it from reading books. And you can read them in full, or you can read them in part, and that's where Blinkist comes in. Really, the greatest of all time summaries and nonfiction books you can find anywhere. It's just incredible. I recommend it very highly. You can claim a special offer for savings if you go to blinkist.com/lex. This show is also brought to you by Athletic Greens and its AG1 Drink, which is an all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance. All-in-one, all-in-one daily drink that I drink twice a day. So it's all-in-one, but twice a day. But I think

• 6:05Lex Fridman?

  most people drink it once a day. But I have doubled the fun and doubled the deliciousness. Anyway, it's the way I guarantee to have like a nutritional basis on which I can do, on top of which I could do all kinds of crazy stuff. All the nutritional diet stuff I do, whether it's eat once a day, or fast, or doing long runs like 12, 15 miles, doing long stretches of mental work, just all the crazy stuff I do. Or when I do carnivore, it just ensures that I'm getting the basic nutrients into my body. It's like an amazing multivitamin, but it does just a lot more than that. And they'll give you one month supply official. Another thing that's essential thing that I take every day when you sign

• 6:50Lex Fridman?

  up at athleticgreens.com/lex.

• 6:54Lex Fridman?

  Take care of your body and mind, friends. It's the only one of each that you got. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now to your friends, here's Hodger Gracie.

• 7:26Lex Fridman?

  Let's start with possibly the greatest match in jiu-jitsu history, your second match against Buchecha. Let's go through the details. Let's go through the whole thing. So the walk leading up to it. You always do this walk, this epic walk. You post that on Instagram. Henzo posted that on Instagram. This calm walk towards the mat. Well, let's go to that match in particular. What was going through your mind? You've been away from competition, facing probably one of the greatest, and at that time, many people considered the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time in Buchecha. Here's the old man, the old timer, getting back out there. What were you thinking?

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I wasn't the favorite walk into a fight, I have to say. Like, a lot of people thought, considered him the favorite.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  I mean, understandable, you know, I was out of competition for a while. He was just winning everything. So, you know, you're saying about the walk, like, for me, you know, the fight starts way before the referees say go, you know? It's all the focus and concentration that I think is very important for me to start before, like, you know, I almost walked blind to the mat. Many times I passed, like, great friends, and I couldn't see anyone, you know? They're trying to talk to you, and I'm like, I'm 100% focused on my opponent already, even though that I cannot even see him in front of me. So I think that's for me was always very important to try to clear my mind out from everything.

• 9:00Lex Fridman?

  Are you visualizing the opponent? Or are you just clearing?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Not at that, not at that time.

• 9:04Lex Fridman?

  Right, is there, what's, what's in your head? Is it like a calm river with birds chirping?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  It's blank, just.

• 9:11Lex Fridman?

  Blank darkness?

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, darkness.

• 9:13Lex Fridman?

  Okay, and that's what we see in that calmness? It's just blankness? How hard is it to achieve that blankness?

• 9:19Speaker 01

  It's difficult to say because I think I don't remember when, I'll say probably as a black belt, I try to focus like that, not to think. Because it's probably something you learn is the more you think, the more nervous you get. And there's nothing that you're gonna gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities, what, you know, what you can do, what can go wrong, what can go right? Because it's unpredictable, you have absolutely no idea. It's impossible to predict the fight.

• 9:50Lex Fridman?

  And you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind, it actually is pretty effective.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  It is, it, it makes you feel better. It's, you know, you, you kind of control your emotion, control the adrenaline on your body up to a level. So it absolutely helps you, you know, focus in the fight.

• 10:08Lex Fridman?

  I've learned that in jiu jitsu and in general in life, that whenever something feels really shitty, you can just like take that thought and not think about it.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:18Lex Fridman?

  Like I do that like on long runs or like a fast run or yeah, in jiu jitsu, especially now getting older, out of shape, like that feeling of exhaustion. Well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion. You could just not think about it.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:30Lex Fridman?

  Not think about being exhausted.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:33Lex Fridman?

  Just, and that somehow relaxes you. I think maybe in the face of exhaustion, all the fears start to creep in. Maybe your muscles tighten up, I don't know. This is for the, the amateur person. But it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it. So you get, as a black belt competitor, you get used to, you get good at letting go of any thoughts.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. When you mentioned to exhaustion is, that's another good example of it. It's, you know, there's a lot of times in the fight, you're getting tired and you're getting pretty tired. So it's like the last thing you wanna think of it is how tired you are. It doesn't matter because it doesn't. What are you gonna do, quit? I mean, it doesn't matter. It's how tired you are.

• 11:18Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's no value thinking about it.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  There's no value, you just have to go through it.

• 11:22Lex Fridman?

  So when you're like a. You know, many minutes into the match and you're slowly moving as you sometimes do, tying your belt, catching your breath, you're not thinking about anything. You're trying to let go of thinking.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  I'm trying to like to save everything to the fight. Like nothing goes to waste. It's, you know, every move unnecessarily is is just gonna make you more tired or it's gonna take something out of you. Like, you know, I try to calculate every single move I make, save as much energy as I can. So I can fully, you know, be focused hundred percent in the fight with no waste, especially energy wise.

• 12:02Lex Fridman?

  And that's instinctual, like minimizing the amount of moves. You're not like explicitly thinking, should I do this or not? It's just, just don't move unless it's absolutely required.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, because fight is you cannot really, there's not really time to think much, you know, it's like it's your instincts are playing. It's like it's, you know, you already have your, you know, your weapons, let's say, you know, the things that you do. It's just wait for the perfect moment. The beauty of it is, you know, there's the right moment to everything. If you feel one second too late, doesn't work. No, you get messy. So it's, you know, you're trying to catch that moment. That's it, you know, and for that you have to be fully focused in what you're doing because one second is you out, it won't work.

• 12:51Lex Fridman?

  But you're not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly. So the, so the moment, it's not about how quickly you move, it's about the right moment.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  The right moment, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not like it's speed. It's not like you have to move the speed of light. It's the move itself or that precise moment. It doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving super fast, you know. So it's a combination of moving between you and him.

• 13:22Lex Fridman?

  I mean, the same thing happens in judo and the movement can be really small.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think judo is a bit more explosiveness, you know, the moves are slightly faster. So it does require a bit more explosiveness in judo.

• 13:37Lex Fridman?

  But even just the right timing for an off balance.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:41Lex Fridman?

  Just a little tug.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's not that, you know, moving, the speed is not going to count that much.

• 13:47Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  It's the timing that you initiate that move.

• 13:50Lex Fridman?

  You see that with foot sweeps. There's nothing more beautiful than like an Olympic level athlete going at it in the Olympics. And a perfect foot sweep. And it's just, and you see one man's life flash before his eyes and realize like, I'm supposed to be the top three person in the world. That I just find, they have this look on their face like, I don't know what just happened. It's beautiful to see. You don't see that, I guess you see that in boxing, knockouts and stuff like that. You don't know what the hell just happened.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's that precise moment of movement that you get caught like is that one split second. That's it.

• 14:28Lex Fridman?

  Do you get that in jiu jitsu at all? Because judo has, because of the explosiveness, because of the point scoring system. That incentivizes these giant throws. Has these moments where everything just turns on a single moment. Do you have that in jiu jitsu too?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Not really, because then it's points. You get like, you know, two points. So it's because I think regarding the submission is not just one precise movement that changed everything. I think judo is the take down that counts as a submission, like ippon, fight over. Jiu jitsu don't have that. So you will score points, but I think in terms of submission. You need to get to an dominant position first. And then the submission will come slowly.

• 15:16Lex Fridman?

  It's a process.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:18Lex Fridman?

  Okay, let's go back to that guy with his mind. So actually in the weeks leading up to it. In the days, in the hours, in the minutes, is there some fear in you? Leading up to this?

• 15:31Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not gonna say, you know, that I'm fearless because everybody fears something, you know? The fear is there, but it's like how much you let that controlled you. I think I was a lot more confident than fearful, for sure, walking into that fight. Like, I was pretty confident that, yeah, I could beat him.

• 15:50Lex Fridman?

  Where's the source of that confidence?

• 15:53Speaker 01

  My belief on me, this, I can take the world.

• 15:58Lex Fridman?

  You can take anyone in the world, but is there a specific strategic? Like, you know, talking to Donahue, he believes that there's no such thing as confidence. Like, or rather, the way you get confidence is through data. Like, that you have proven yourself effective in previous situations. But with Buchecha, you don't have much data. It was a very, the first time you faced him was a very tough. That was also one of the greatest matches of all time. It was very tough. So, doesn't that creep in? Like, that doubt? Because you don't have enough data to be confident based on?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean,

• 16:43Speaker 01

  okay, if I never had fought before, you know, suddenly walk into a fight with someone like that, then would I be that confident? I mean, probably no. You know, so that history of what you've been doing, what you've been achieving does give you confidence. If that was my first fight ever, I wouldn't, probably I wouldn't be that confident.

• 17:03Lex Fridman?

  But the time off?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter.

• 17:06Lex Fridman?

  Doesn't matter?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter.

• 17:08Lex Fridman?

  You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience, the psychological experience of being rusty, of being out of the competition?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  That will come on, on training.

• 17:18Lex Fridman?

  So you, okay, so you simulate some aspect of that in the training?

• 17:21Speaker 01

  The training will tell you how you are.

• 17:24Lex Fridman?

  Did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this?

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I trained, I trained normal. Let's say compared to the first fight, the second one's a lot more confidence because, you know, like I say on training, the training for the first fight, you were terrible. So.

• 17:41Lex Fridman?

  What do you mean?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  I think I was focusing MMA for a while, for a couple of months, and I wasn't really focusing the gi. And you know, by the time I accepted fight, then start training, like all my responses on training were off. Like all my training partners that I used to train with that I destroyed. I mean, now they're like, they're beating me. You know, it's like I cannot beat them the way I I was used to. But you know, so I knew something was not right for the first fight. But then it's, you know, no points, it's submission or draw.

• 18:15Lex Fridman?

  So yeah, for people who don't know, it was a one more, which is a 20 minute match. Submission only, so there's no, the winner is determined only by submission, otherwise it's a draw.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  So physically, I was, I wasn't myself on that fight. I was tired and my body wasn't responding anyway. So that, so the concept was different from the first, the second. I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first. That I was still gonna fight because he has to tap me out to beat me. And I trust on my defense. I'm confident enough on my defense that he will not tap me out. But in terms of winning, you know, walking to the second fight, I was a lot more confident.

• 18:56Lex Fridman?

  What can you say about that feeling when something's not right? Isn't that a thing that breaks people?

• 19:01Speaker 01

  It's we breaks, it's weird, like people crack, they give up. You know, this is, is a, is a big test because it's, it's like being really tired. It's the same thing. It's like a lot of people crack because they just feel they can't not give in more. They have nothing more to give. So they just like give up. It's too hard.

• 19:22Lex Fridman?

  So what do you do? Just again, take the thoughts out?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  There is no giving up. I mean, I don't mind, I don't care. Like you, you're just giving up, it's not, not, it's not.

• 19:33Lex Fridman?

  That's always the way you thought?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:35Lex Fridman?

  About jiu jitsu?

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I'm never gave up. I mean, I tapped. It's, you know, not giving up is not, not tapping, that's just stupid. Especially, you know, doing training, like it's, I get caught, I tap. I've never, ever.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Hurt myself by not tapping. I get you get angry, you know, it's train hard, you know, improve, make a make yourself better. You got caught. Accept that you made a mistake. Give up, tap, then try harder. So you know, the not tapping, it's you're sacrificing your body and you know, you will never be the same. Like if you let your elbow popped, the elbow will never ever be the same ever. You let yourself go to sleep, your resistance drops. So it's everybody has a has a limit of resistance until they, you know, to resist a choke before you pass out. The moment that you you you you go to sleep, that resistance will dropped.

• 20:31Lex Fridman?

  I've never heard anyone say that. That's awesome. That's true. So tap. So that's the reason, because people usually say it's

• 20:37Speaker 01

  No, it's the same or you're getting knocked out. You get knocked out the first time, your resistance dropped. Your drug gets weaker. So

• 20:45Lex Fridman?

  Just for the record, I've never gone to sleep in Jiu Jitsu, which means my resistance is high, right? I don't know.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Must be. Or your defense is pretty good.

• 20:54Lex Fridman?

  I don't know about that. Because it doesn't make sense to me. Or maybe, in my case, I think my understanding of when I'm screwed is pretty good.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:07Lex Fridman?

  Like, there's no

• 21:08Speaker 01

  You're not in trouble.

• 21:09Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. One of the things I regret the most about my Jiu Jitsu journey is not having given enough time to being in really bad positions. Like, the better I got, I think the less I started being in bad positions, which is

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Because you spar. That's like, that is how you train.

• 21:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Because you should just spar. When you spar, like, it's difficult to to be in bad positions a lot. You train with better people, but, I mean, let's say five, six men rows, how long you gonna be in a really bad position? Not long, right? So you don't really have time to develop. That's why people, they don't, you know, they don't train, be in bad positions, because you have to start there over and over again. To be used to it.

• 21:58Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, or put yourself there. I just didn't have that mindset, I think. I think you start, I mean, part of the fun of jiu-jitsu is as you get better and better. You have certain people you go with. You have these puzzles that you've figured out that you're playing. Very specific details you're working out. You're trying to improve your main. Like techniques and so on. But yeah, just the percentage of time you spend being submitted. Or being or try even going against like lower ranks. Trying to escape basic submissions is low. I don't know if that's true for most people. Probably is, right?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Most people have very bad defense.

• 22:31Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Because they don't allow themselves to be there because. I mean, who wants to get tapped? Because you will until you, you know, to work on your defense, of course, you're gonna get. Tap or you know, you're not gonna escape. You're gonna struggle to escape. So people they don't want to be there.

• 22:49Lex Fridman?

  I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had on how I competed.

• 22:56Lex Fridman?

  It was it was clear that my competition was was constantly driven by conservative thinking. Like, don't take risks. I think because of a weak defense, honestly. And I think a lot of the any of the fear. Like, for example, exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense, I think. If I were to psychoanalyze myself, and I regret it, I regret it a lot.

• 23:23Lex Fridman?

  But speaking of which.

• 23:28Lex Fridman?

  I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition. So you're.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  While I was a juvenile, yes.

• 23:35Lex Fridman?

  Yes. So so when you were a young person.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:38Lex Fridman?

  Does that still haunt you?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  No, it's first I was winning that fight by a large. I mean, I think by six points or four, something like that. But I was like, I was.

• 23:49Lex Fridman?

  Don't remember it, though, huh?

• 23:51Speaker 01

  By the details.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:58Lex Fridman?

  You ever beat him again?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  He never competed again.

• 24:05Lex Fridman?

  Whoever you are, please, let's let's do a podcast. We'll talk shit about Hajar the whole time. No, but what do you attribute that to? You're saying you're confident. You're confident that. The top of the world, the number one Buchesia would not submit you. So where is that confidence grounded and what do you attribute the fact that nobody was able to submit you?

• 24:29Speaker 01

  First, it comes from training. You know, I train a lot bad position. Like my defense is good because I practice over and over again, as much as I practice all my offensive position. So it's, you know, you have to train both equally, not just be in a good position, you have to be in bad. So I think that's a very strong part of my game. You know, to be a complete fighter, you know, a complete martial artist, you have to be good in every single position, every single one. Those are the you're not, you have a weakness. So it's, you know, to be complete, you should have no weakness.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  So that was always my, you know, I was always very particular on that, like it's where my weakness, where I don't feel good at it. If you put me in a position where I struggle, how do I escape? How do I get out? Everything, any submission locked, penny position, you know, back mount, everything. It doesn't matter which position I'm in, I practice over and over again. So that when I, if I get there in a fighting situation, I will know how to get out. At least I'll have a direction, you know, I will know this is my way out.

• 25:43Lex Fridman?

  Do you practice both escaping the bad position and

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Always.

• 25:47Lex Fridman?

  the transition into the bad position, avoiding it? Because that's how it happens, you know, jiu-jitsu, you start in a neutral position.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  No, the transition then becomes the fight itself. It's being there is the most important, is when you're there, then you have to know how to get out. That's your weakness. Stopping the person getting there is something different. So they're two different things. Either you practice one or the other.

• 26:17Lex Fridman?

  So but both are important, I guess. But the stopping a person is easier to practice because that comes naturally in training.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:25Lex Fridman?

  What was the actual process? Like, what was your biggest weakness throughout your? Like, just remembering what was annoying to you to figure out?

• 26:33Speaker 01

  I mean, outside control is always.

• 26:36Lex Fridman?

  Bottom of side control.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Bottom. It's regardless of how much you you you practice, it's not ever easy. You'll never be easy. But.

• 26:44Lex Fridman?

  It's so annoying. It makes no sense.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, someone pins you down, doesn't want to move much, is a big and strong guy. Regardless of who, it's not going to be easy to escape. So some situations are just hard.

• 26:55Lex Fridman?

  That must be the, sorry to interrupt. I'm interrupting Haja Gracie discussing jiu-jitsu. But you just made me realize. If you're really good, if you're you're if you're going against like the perfect jiu-jitsu competitor, probably side control might be one of the hardest positions to. Is it the hardest position to escape?

• 27:15Speaker 01

  It's one of them. If the person doesn't want to progress, he's just concerned about.

• 27:19Lex Fridman?

  So if they're stalling, yeah. Like, the best pingers in the world. I mean, partially because I've just seen judo people that know how to pin.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:26Lex Fridman?

  They.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Go escape their side control is a nightmare. It's a nightmare. Doesn't matter how much you practice.

• 27:33Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  It's a nightmare.

• 27:35Lex Fridman?

  And it's also just frustrating.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:37Lex Fridman?

  I think I guess it is also frustrating because a lot of people in that position will be about maintaining control, not progressing.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:45Lex Fridman?

  And usually people when they're mounting back control are usually trying to progress towards a submission, which opens up opportunities for escape.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:54Lex Fridman?

  So what's the actual process of just time and time again, putting yourself in side control, bottom of side control?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, over and over again, starting there, escape, back, escape, get back. If you mount you, get back. Any situation outside that stops, start again, stops, start again. And it has to be, I'll say, five minutes. Because it's the repetition that will teach you. You know, if you train like three minutes on top, you have time to, you know, one thing and then timeout. It's the repetition there over and over again. You know, when you try the same move over and over again, then you'll see what can go wrong.

• 28:33Lex Fridman?

  And is it understanding the details of the movement or actually doing the movement and feeling it?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  It's it's both. First, you have to understand the movement and then practice.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  But most important thing is defense. Scape coming second. Because you know, he's attacking you. The one thing is if he's not trying to submit you, but the other one, if it is. Let's say if a person is very good, has a very good attack. The first thing is defense. Not just scape. You can expose yourself to a even worse position. Because that is, is, is, is very risky. When you're trying to scape, you'll always expose yourself to a worse position. So avoiding that, it's, you know, first is defense, not getting caught. And then when you're escaping, don't be in a worse position.

• 29:21Lex Fridman?

  So defense in jiu jitsu, when you're wearing a gi, what does defense entail? Is it mostly grips? Is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs?

• 29:30Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's, it's everything together because it's a whole body movement. It's, you know, it's a constantly moving of your arms, legs, body. It's, it, they, they, they have to, everything works together.

• 29:44Lex Fridman?

  Going back to the mind of that guy. Uh, so confident. No fear at this point. Is there a bit of ego in there too?

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yes. Like, like I said, no, I'm not gonna say I'm fear, I'm fearless. Of course, this concerns.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  That fight, I would have to say was probably the fight that I got nervous the most walking in. Because I knew what that meant, that fight. I mean, everything for me, all my legacy was on the line. Because if I lost that fight, I would forever be number two.

• 30:21Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Forever. And I mean, Busheshe is, is a great, great guy, great competitor. Jiu Jitsu is very good. But I'm better than him. I knew that.

• 30:33Lex Fridman?

  But he's competing nonstop at that point.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  He's a, he's a great competitor, you know, taking nothing out of him. He's super tough. Very, very tough, very good. He's probably the best competitor in jiu jitsu. He won 13 times the world championship. I won 10. So as a competitor, you know, he has more titles than I do. So, but in terms of, you know, analyzing the game, I consider technically better than him. So knowing all that, everything that I build, all my legacy, it's if I lose.

• 31:08Lex Fridman?

  Writing on this match.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  If I lose this fight, I'm forever number two.

• 31:14Lex Fridman?

  And none of that is going going through your mind?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  I know, I knew, I mean, it's not at that moment that I I already knew that. I remember just before, you know, the curtains open, I'm standing in before they call my name. And I mean, my legs were like, I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs and I'm like, you know, I'm hitting the legs, I'm like, wake up, you know, get off, get the adrenaline off me, you know. So it's it was it was intense, it was intense.

• 31:44Lex Fridman?

  And this was in Rio?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  That was in Rio.

• 31:46Lex Fridman?

  So.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  My hometown.

• 31:49Lex Fridman?

  So this is, I mean, and you know, Rio is is not exactly known for its calmness in its fans. So this is like, wherever they hosted the Olympics the year before.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:03Lex Fridman?

  So this is like, I mean, this like the whole basically martial arts community is watching this.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  That fight. Yeah.

• 32:14Lex Fridman?

  I mean, is there some, uh, was Henzo there?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, he was there.

• 32:18Lex Fridman?

  So people are just, I mean, there's attention and it's also, I mean, I don't know if you felt that in part, but you're also fighting for the Gracie name.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. In the, in our hometown.

• 32:30Lex Fridman?

  The greatest.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Where the Gracie really.

• 32:33Lex Fridman?

  Gracie competitor of all time, arguably, in the hometown.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:38Lex Fridman?

  I mean, okay.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  All my family, my best friends, my friends, everybody watching, everybody there. There was a lot of pressure, a lot.

• 32:48Lex Fridman?

  And then were you thinking that you would be able to submit him?

• 32:53Speaker 01

  No, it's at that point, like I don't predict how the fight will go. That I never did because it isn't predictable. It's I never tried to set any strategy for any fight. I think, oh, okay, that I did. But that was the only time that I set any strategy into a fight. There was a 15 minutes fight there. And for I said first five minutes, I'm gonna play defense. He's bigger, stronger, younger. I don't wanna play his game and I know he comes in very fast. Every single fight he had, you know, he comes very aggressive. So my strategy walk into the fight, I say five minutes, I'm gonna play defense. I'm not gonna try to attack, I'm not gonna try to match his pace.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  I already expected, you know, maybe I'm gonna start losing the fight because, you know, if he comes in, there's a risk of me maybe getting ticked down, you know, or something happen. I'm like, I'm gonna stick to the game plan. Five minutes, I'm gonna stop picking up the pace, cause then it's 10 minutes to go. Which 10 minutes are long fight, so I don't need to start fast, but I'm gonna start being more aggressive and then, you know, try to take him down or pull guard, you know, but by then I'm like, that's as far as strategy goes.

• 34:05Lex Fridman?

  So no specific stay on the feet? Were you comfortable being both bottom and top in this?

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:11Lex Fridman?

  Strategically?

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm always comfortable being bottom or top. I prefer to be on top because being in the bottom, the person on top dictates the pace of the fight, cause he's on top over you. So I always prefer to be on top, cause I can dictate the pace. I can implement my own pace. And being the bottom, they can slow me down. So it's harder. So if I can choose, I will always be on top. But I think by then I was like, it's, you know, five minutes, hit it. I'm like, he's pretty big and strong, I'm gonna spend a lot of energy taking him down. I forgot.

• 34:48Lex Fridman?

  How did it, how did it feel? So here you're stepping in, by the way, puzzle math, this is old school, as old school as it gets.

• 34:57Lex Fridman?

  So calm and relaxed here, for people just listening, we're watching the early minutes of the match.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:02Lex Fridman?

  So just feeling it out, he seems pretty calm too, he must be nervous too. I wonder how, did you ever talk to him, you guys are friends?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we're friends.

• 35:10Lex Fridman?

  Did he ever say how nervous he was?

• 35:11Speaker 01

  No, we never spoke about that fight.

• 35:14Lex Fridman?

  No?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:18Lex Fridman?

  He probably lays late at night thinking about it.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Maybe, I don't know.

• 35:23Lex Fridman?

  That SOB.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, so you see the first five minutes, you know, he kept. I knew what he was going to do in my study his game. His stand up is most basic is basic in takedowns, leg attacks, double leg. So he goes single or double and he charges in. That is pretty much his stand up game.

• 35:47Lex Fridman?

  So you try, you get, you get a grip.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that we got penalized.

• 35:52Lex Fridman?

  So do you like to use the, do you like to post with your left? You have a right foot forward usually, you're a righty, right?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  I'm righty, but I know he wants my leg. So I'm, I'm, I'm playing my stance just because of his game. Or, or you know, all my grips are that the first five minutes was to kind of try to neutralize his attacks.

• 36:13Lex Fridman?

  So he wants to get your left leg?

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:17Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, right there.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:19Lex Fridman?

  So how hard is that to stop that?

• 36:21Speaker 01

  I mean, he felt pretty strong coming in. So I'm, you know, pushing the head down, trying to play with his balance.

• 36:28Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  If, if you, if you see it, there was a pause. Go back there. He charged in. There's a pause, me standing in front of him.

• 36:39Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  I did that on purpose.

• 36:42Lex Fridman?

  What do you mean?

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Just to. Just in front of him, because you know, he tried.

• 36:47Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  And I'm like, you fail, I'm here.

• 36:51Lex Fridman?

  There's a, okay. So you could feel the frustration.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  I could feel his frustration, his frustration not be able to take me down.

• 37:01Lex Fridman?

  Okay, so now, and this is just psychological battles.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  And you see me walking straight into the middle of the mat and he's circling out.

• 37:09Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  See, I'm going very slow, recovering.

• 37:12Lex Fridman?

  And he's computing like shit.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, because he just made a, you know, effort trying to take me down. He needs to recover. And I mean, you, you need to recover, the other guys there waiting for you.

• 37:24Lex Fridman?

  And do I, do I go for another takedown? Because this one failed.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:29Lex Fridman?

  Do I need to recalculate the strategy?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he kept trying over and over again and keep failing. I think that frustrated him a lot on that fight. I fell. I felt him kind of slowing down suddenly because he was getting nowhere.

• 37:47Lex Fridman?

  So we're five minutes in. Yeah, he keeps. So he never got that takedown in the in the early?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 37:59Lex Fridman?

  Let's see. So at this point, do you pull guard? Yeah, okay.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  So that's when I felt like he's he's mentally, he's he's not, he's worried now.

• 38:12Lex Fridman?

  Did you try to pull close guard here?

• 38:14Speaker 01

  No, I knew he's gonna bring Danny in.

• 38:16Lex Fridman?

  Okay, cuz that's the defense against pulling close guard?

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I like that. What he I like people bringing Danny between my legs. Cuz see, I'm gonna close my guard even with his leg in.

• 38:31Lex Fridman?

  Okay, he is he's he's stopping the well, this is awkward, but.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  Because I was holding his arm. That's why he felt he had no hand to post.

• 38:40Lex Fridman?

  Got it. But still, it puts a leg in, but you're able to close your guard around. So you're okay with that?

• 38:47Speaker 01

  I do that really well. I sweep people from that position a lot.

• 38:50Lex Fridman?

  What's the sweep?

• 38:51Speaker 01

  I guess just pushed.

• 38:53Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  It's just a.

• 38:54Lex Fridman?

  Like to your left side?

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:56Lex Fridman?

  Okay, because he has no. Oh, it's almost like a you mean, you're basically around his back a little bit like.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  And he knew that like I swept a lot of people with that sweep. So you you see, he kept leaning to his left, to my right.

• 39:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  So I wanna push them to my left. So you see him leaning over to my right a lot.

• 39:15Lex Fridman?

  What's the right answer for him to like roll or something?

• 39:17Speaker 01

  No, I mean, he's stuck. He does not really. He's he's stuck there, but the one thing he did, he kept off me completely. See that he's leaning to like he's too afraid of my attack now because he that you know, he should lean on me.

• 39:32Lex Fridman?

  Yep.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  You know, you should bring the fight to me. So when I felt him, you know, I I knew he was like he's too worried about my attacks now.

• 39:42Lex Fridman?

  Oh, yeah, that's right. So he can't.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:44Lex Fridman?

  If he comes back to the center, he has no.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  So he's not engaging now. At that time, he's a hundred percent just defending. So I felt that I'm like he's he doesn't want to engage.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  And he's looking, I knew at that point, he wants my foot. Because our first fight, I had the exact same position. I wasn't holding his arm. And he went to attack my foot, which he did, you know, he got into.

• 40:06Lex Fridman?

  Like a toe hold or what? Okay.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I knew he's looking at my foot.

• 40:11Lex Fridman?

  Which foot? Sorry, the left, your right foot?

• 40:13Speaker 01

  My right, yeah, my right foot.

• 40:15Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  So I'm holding his arm. I'm holding his arm.

• 40:19Lex Fridman?

  And now you're going to the back as an arm drag type of thing?

• 40:22Speaker 01

  So the moment that I came off, now I'm, I'm holding his arm so he cannot come up. So, you know, I'm holding his left arm, so he cannot post a hand on the floor and come up.

• 40:32Lex Fridman?

  And he's holding your right to try to get you.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:36Lex Fridman?

  Basically to prevent you from attacking.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:40Lex Fridman?

  Oh, that's interesting. And he rolls.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, he tried to, he tried to get me off balance. So see, now I'm switching, I switched the grip on his arm, so I can free my left arm.

• 40:52Lex Fridman?

  Can I ask you a question? Like, uh, was there a chance he sweeps you here?

• 40:57Speaker 01

  I mean, there's always a chance, but very.

• 40:59Lex Fridman?

  Like that?

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, but see, my left arm is free.

• 41:02Lex Fridman?

  Oh, so you can post?

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:04Lex Fridman?

  Why was your left arm free? Oh, because you were using it to got it, got it. Okay.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  So I tried the hook. Now you will see.

• 41:14Lex Fridman?

  Still got your arm?

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, but when I knew he's, he's panicking. Because he did a move that he completely opened himself up. Like, I'm holding his left arm. So by holding their arm, he's, that prevents him from defending the hook on that side. Because his arm is being held across. So their arm cannot block the hook. And, I mean.

• 41:39Lex Fridman?

  The hook with your left leg?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you'll see when he come up, but I would say, I mean, that's my guess, but Buchesche is, he's, he's a big guy, you know, he was like 110 kilos, 112, something like that.

• 41:52Lex Fridman?

  Which is?

• 41:52Speaker 01

  245.

• 41:53Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. All right.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 41:55Lex Fridman?

  What were you at the time? Less?

• 41:58Speaker 01

  220, yeah, 220.

• 42:00Lex Fridman?

  A nice slim 100 kilo, okay.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, in his.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  His defense are not amazing. He's good, but you know, he's not known to have amazing defense. So by being the big guy in the room when you train, you used to get out of situations because of your size. You shake people off. You know, it's because of your size, you shake them off. You get off some bad positions. You can, I mean, I could feel on the first fight, I'm side control. You know, something he explode out. So you know, I've seen him doing that a few of his fights. Not, not in the most technical way, just I'm getting out. And he did because of his size. So, and he did the same thing, like he tried to stood up when I'm on his back. He completely opened up the hooks.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  He will see the next move, his head gonna come up and he gonna try to get off the floor.

• 42:55Lex Fridman?

  So basically come up, shake you off kind of strategy.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  There was no defense for the hooks. I put both hooks in straight away.

• 43:03Lex Fridman?

  Oh, his arm is.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm off balance. Yeah, see, I didn't bring him up, he came up.

• 43:08Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  And now I'm attacking his neck and he's worried about the hooks.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  That's fatal mistake. That's like defense always come first. Remember what I just said now?

• 43:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Defense first, cape second. So he's not worried more about the points than his neck. So it was like a, a, a progression of mistakes. That's why I think he did, he got frustrated when he couldn't take me down. And then when I pull guard, he was, he was frustrated that the fight wasn't going his way. You know, he's, he's very good about taking down. He try over and over again for five minutes.

• 43:46Lex Fridman?

  And here he was frustrated about the hooks. So he's like, it's almost like the frustration, things like, no, no, no, these hooks shouldn't be here.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Like I pull guard on the grips that I want. He's not comfortable inside my guard. He's not in the position that he wants to be. He's over leaning to his left. You know, to, to, to, to not, he's not engaging or trying to pass. He's trying to get the foot, but his arm is trapped. He's gonna get nowhere. And then when I swept him, some of his world start collapsing. You know, he couldn't take me down. I pull guard, I'm swept in. He tried to roll me over. No, it didn't get me anywhere. The first movement that he tried to escape, I'm on his back. I mean, now he's lost.

• 44:26Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. That, if you just go back to him standing up.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  See both hooks in no difference, like there was nothing on the way of those hooks.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Because he tried to come up.

• 44:40Lex Fridman?

  As he's coming up, you're you're high enough on him to where the weight was just probably immense. It just felt too heavy. And you're already you're already you're already going for the choke, yeah, of course.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  There's no time to lose.

• 44:58Lex Fridman?

  Look at that.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:00Lex Fridman?

  So you're not like worried I'm gonna get shaken off, you're going for the choke. Okay, you got your right hand.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  There's no shaking me off, I'm on your back now.

• 45:07Lex Fridman?

  We're in this together, okay. And your your right hand is opening up the lapel.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  My right hand is holding his arm. I still holding the sleeve.

• 45:15Lex Fridman?

  Oh, sorry, it looks like you're holding the sleeve, but.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  I'm holding the sleeve and I'm already going for the neck. Because it's timing.

• 45:22Lex Fridman?

  At which point do you let go of the sleeve and open up, help with the lapel, or do you not need it?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  No, I did that, but first I wanna try to make a grip, like then I need to establish control before I let go his arm.

• 45:35Lex Fridman?

  Got it.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  So I kept holding that a bit longer. And then when I fell, okay, I have a good control over the back, then I let go.

• 45:45Lex Fridman?

  Do you, okay, so you have like a light grip on his lapel, but you're thinking.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  No, I need to adjust that.

• 45:53Lex Fridman?

  You need to adjust that. You're like holding it there and you're thinking, okay, at some point I need to adjust.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  All I need, all I want is to get under his chin, then I know it's, I mean, it's now I can go for it. Because if it's over, there's no choke, right? I need the wrist needs to be under.

• 46:07Lex Fridman?

  Can you choke Buchesio over the?

• 46:09Speaker 01

  No, I can't, that's just not right.

• 46:11Lex Fridman?

  Okay, it's not right or it doesn't work?

• 46:13Speaker 01

  It both, it's not right and doesn't work. I mean, would you tap to choke on your chin? No, it's just pressure. You you hurt, but it's not gonna choke you out.

• 46:22Lex Fridman?

  I don't know, I don't know, I'm not, let me argue this, I love this, arguing with Haja Gray thing about chokes, this is great. Okay, like clock choke is, it was always interesting to me, because in Judo it's illegal to have the gi around them. Face and so it was kind of liberating for me to be allowed to have a gear on the face. No, it's just.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Liberating.

• 46:44Lex Fridman?

  No, then you don't have to worry about it. Like, of course, it's more effective to go under the chin, but I'm surprised just because the amount of pressure like.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  It's all about how much you can take it. You can take a lot.

• 46:53Lex Fridman?

  But it feels like.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't feel comfortable. I mean, sometimes on your mouth, it cuts your mouth. Now you're bleeding. It feels horrible.

• 46:59Lex Fridman?

  No, but it feel, that's not the feeling. The feeling, it might not be a choke, but the feeling like, like it's a pressure that everything's just closing in.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  But it doesn't take you anywhere. Like you're not gonna go to sleep.

• 47:09Lex Fridman?

  You might not go to sleep.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  So it's just pressure.

• 47:13Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  So pressure, it hurts, it's uncomfortable, but it, it is not gonna break your face and it's not gonna put you to sleep. So if I don't get the neck, I don't go for the kill.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  I'm like, I'm, I'm holding the, the, his collar. You know, my, my wrist is almost under. It's, you know, I'm, I'm trying to kind of dig in. If, if I can dig in, then I would adjust the collar, but first I need to dig in.

• 47:40Lex Fridman?

  A dig in first, then adjust. But can you do all that with one hand or no?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  I did.

• 47:46Lex Fridman?

  So you can tighten the choke with just one hand?

• 47:49Speaker 01

  No, I, I need the second one to open the lapel.

• 47:51Lex Fridman?

  To open the lapel. But you're like digging in with one.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  I'm digging in under the chin. Under is under. Now I need to go deeper.

• 47:58Lex Fridman?

  But that, the going deeper requires a second hand.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  It does.

• 48:01Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  It does.

• 48:03Lex Fridman?

  And, but that requires you letting go of the other hand.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have to let go eventually. Yeah, see?

• 48:09Lex Fridman?

  All right.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:10Lex Fridman?

  Well, that's over.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because I'm already under his, like the first hand got under the chin.

• 48:16Lex Fridman?

  Do you need the, a hand on the second lapel?

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Of course. Otherwise he turns and he's out.

• 48:21Lex Fridman?

  That's to control the turning versus the tightening of the choke?

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does both. It, it helps tighten the collar and stop the person probably.

• 48:30Lex Fridman?

  Out.

• 48:37Lex Fridman?

  Were you

• 48:40Lex Fridman?

  feeling pretty good about this position?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  I just felt it's getting tighter, tighter, tighter, tighter. Because it wasn't super tight from the beginning. It wasn't like the perfect choke. So we're still, I mean, I knew it was like he's very close to the end, but you know, I still need to adjust. There was still the risk of maybe he's escaping.

• 48:59Lex Fridman?

  Is it possible for his head to slip out?

• 49:02Speaker 01

  It's possible, yes. But I'm closing that gap.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:08Lex Fridman?

  I hear.

• 49:11Lex Fridman?

  What did that feel like? Relief?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Relief, like awesome, amazing.

• 49:19Lex Fridman?

  Somebody on Reddit asked, ask him about the cross grip he used to sweep, followed with a genius grip switch when Buchesha was inverted. Did you use a cross grip when you sweep?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  I guess the cross grip in the arm, that must be it.

• 49:32Lex Fridman?

  Oh, that's the cross grip. Okay. What's the genius behind that? Or was that just the, do you like that kind of, that kind of grip?

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I always like closed guard. And no one wants to be in anyone's closed guard, right? It's open guard is the step to pass. So everybody, when you try to close the guard, they bring the knee in the middle. Like if you, if you're not standing, if you're lower on the ground and the open guard, if you're close to me, you need that knee between. So it's a must. That's when I start developing the attack. You know, I managed to have long legs to close my legs around people even with that. And then I just developed that sweep.

• 50:14Lex Fridman?

  When did you start developing that?

• 50:16Speaker 01

  I don't remember when, but I would say before Black Belt.

• 50:20Lex Fridman?

  Okay, so your answer to that is not to figure out how to prevent them from putting the knee in. Is there an answer to that?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 50:30Lex Fridman?

  The good guys will always

• 50:31Speaker 01

  No, you can't remove their leg out of the way. That's not possible.

• 50:34Lex Fridman?

  Well, maybe off balance them enough to where it's not.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 50:37Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  I mean, you can try, but like it's hard. If you've kind of balanced, you sweep them.

• 50:43Lex Fridman?

  Alright, so that knee is gonna, so you're gonna have to solve that.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  That's a full sweep, yeah. Because that's, is extremely common to have that. I mean, if I'm on your guard, open guard, you know, if you have your legs, if I'm between both of your legs in the open guard, my knee will be between your legs. Because it's a must. My knee cannot be on the floor.

• 51:04Lex Fridman?

  Since Henzo was there, what did he tell you before?

• 51:07Speaker 01

  I think just motivate you. I think that's, Henzo always did that fantastically well to motivate me. Like before I fight a match, I think that, you know, the confidence, you know, his, you know, his energy being around you, it's, I think that's the, is the great thing to have hands on your corner. It is the motivation that he gives you.

• 51:29Lex Fridman?

  What did you learn about jiu-jitsu in life from Henzo Gracie? We got to hang out with him in Vegas a little bit. He's a character.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:36Lex Fridman?

  He's one of the historic coaches and jiu-jitsu competitors, but also personalities in the martial arts world. In the world in general, there's very few like him.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Henzo is a fantastic person. It's, it's, you know, what I've learned most from him is like, it's, you know, you can't take any challenge. It's, you know, it doesn't matter when, where, what, you know, who. It's, you know, you have to be ready and, you know, with that warrior spirit that he has, he, you know, he always took any challenge. Ready or not ready.

• 52:12Lex Fridman?

  Was it you that said it or he said it where not until

• 52:19Lex Fridman?

  you go in, you know, to do something difficult, do you discover the strength that you have? So like, like if you really think about it.

• 52:29Lex Fridman?

  You might think that you don't, you're not good enough. You don't have the strength to take on something difficult.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  I fully agree. I think we are measured not when we're on the strongest, but when we are on the weakest. That's when we truly measure ourselves, our character, who we are. Not when we're in a position of power, when we're in a position of weakness.

• 52:48Lex Fridman?

  Have you surprised yourself like how damn good you are? Like, is this, is this really how good I am in this situation? Where in retrospect, you might think, how was I able to accomplish this?

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Not how good I am, because otherwise I wouldn't be there. So, you know, being there in the first place, it's, it's already not a great thing. But I say, you know, every single time I found myself there, I was super proud that I've never cracked. Like I've never gave up ever, any second, any fight, never.

• 53:25Lex Fridman?

  Never been broken in competition?

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Never. Even, it's not about winning or losing, it's about you giving up. I've never doubted myself. I always fought to the very end, always. That I'm most proud of. Cause there was moments, you know, it's, you're in a terrible position. You know, mainly like there was moments that I was super tired, but like exhaustive tired. When it was easy to give up, like I had nothing more to give, but I pushed. I took energy out of my soul, I'll have to say. Cause when my body had zero, my, you know, my spirit, my soul, pull it out.

• 54:08Lex Fridman?

  Is that in part just not allowing yourself to have, to ever, ever quit?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:17Lex Fridman?

  I have one other thing I regret. I remember like a blue belt match. I remember, I'm not going to say who it was against, but I remember it just being extremely exhausted. And just constantly fighting a guy was really good mount, really good guard passing. And I just remember him passing my guard eventually. So it was just like a finals of one of the IBJJ tournaments. And then right away going to mount and just.

• 54:51Lex Fridman?

  I don't know, the level of frustration, I mean, I quit at that point. So I remember that still, like I, it's not about losing, winning or losing. But I just remember I was like, I was like teary eyed, frustrated. And then I knew there was a lot of fights still left even in there somewhere. And I, I quit and I regret that to this day. Cause I think the reason I regret that is because it gave me an option to now quit in every other aspect of life. Like that, this is an option.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 55:24Lex Fridman?

  It sucks.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it teaches you, you know, it makes us stronger. I think it made you stronger.

• 55:33Lex Fridman?

  Uh, yeah, it makes you stronger that you did that to learn that, don't do that again. But still, like you said, just going to sleep in training. I do think it made me weaker. It did make me weaker in the rest of my life too. Those, you know, I've quit a few times in my life on small things. And you realize, okay, it's not that big of a deal. It's fine. Like, who cares? But that, what you learn over time is that voice always comes there. Like, uh, uh, obviously, maybe it does for you too, even at the highest level of like, it's not that big of a deal. Like, it's okay to quit here. Like, it makes sense. Everybody would understand.

• 56:13Lex Fridman?

  You know, in some sense, like you're, uh, you know, many people would say you're past your prime in this match with the Puchesha, like, it makes sense. You've been focusing on MMA. Makes sense.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:24Lex Fridman?

  Makes sense to lose. Yeah, I don't know. That's a weird voice. And in some sense, uh, it's that voice and a voice that says like, why are you doing this? Like, this is silly. This doesn't make any sense. Just stop, just stop, just stop. And shutting that voice down and never allowing yourself to quit, that's a really powerful thing. Like, everybody I've met, everybody that's successful. Yeah, down to the, even engineers, CEOs, Elon Musk, just never quitting. Like, when everybody around you says quit, never quitting. It's weird. I don't know what that is. Might be genetic.

• 57:05Lex Fridman?

  It might be like using the stubbornness to just never allow yourself to, um,

• 57:12Lex Fridman?

  Develop that, basically developing a calluses to that voice that tries to tell you to quit. You never quit, huh? What would you attribute that to?

• 57:22Speaker 01

  It's like how much you want to get to the destination you chose. Like, you know, it's how badly you want to get there. It's if you quit, you're never gonna get there.

• 57:34Lex Fridman?

  And you always wanted to.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  I always wanted to.

• 57:38Lex Fridman?

  Is there something you remember from that match? Some things that happened before and after that stand out to you? Just since in Rio?

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was an interview, you know, like prior to the fight. You know, there was a big fight. We were doing like media every day before. We, you know, me and him, we were meeting for media. And it's like five days before, you know, five, six days before. I'm quite chatty. It's, you know, the closer we get to the fight, the more focused I get, the less I talk, I stop. Joke around, playing, you know, with people. But I remember, I think it was maybe three or four days before, we were doing an interview together. I think my cousin Kira was there, she was doing one of the interviews with us. And I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but I just remember we're talking about the fight, of course.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  And then it was, you know, we're standing beside each other. And I'm like, and then I, you know, suddenly I chop him, I grab him by the neck. I say, I'm gonna tap you by the neck. And then he's like, you know, very shy.

• 58:40Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  And then I let go, I say, no, I'm gonna grab, tap you by the arm. And I could feel he was like, he wasn't comfortable, you know, with being there. It was, you know, me saying that I'm gonna tap him out. There was like, I was so relaxed joking about it, but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him out in a fight that we're gonna have him for this time. And yeah, I felt he was like not comfortable at all.

• 59:05Lex Fridman?

  Do you think you got in his head a little bit?

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:07Lex Fridman?

  It gave you a little bit of confidence?

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:09Lex Fridman?

  You've said that jujitsu is a reflection of your personality. So both your jujitsu and your personality, there's a calmness. What is that? Why are you so calm? Is there like an ocean underneath that's boiling? Is this developed or is this your personality? Are you basically leveraging who you are already to develop a game around the jujitsu or the jujitsu and make you calm?

• 59:30Speaker 01

  I think both. I was always very calm since I was a kid, you know, since very young. I was never a very fiery person. So that is a reflection. You know, you reflected on my jujitsu, my life, on my fights, where I fight. So it's a direct influence of my personality. And I think it's also in the day, you know, you develop the more, the more you practice, the more you fight, it's like, you know, you don't want to get nervous. You don't want the adrenaline in. So you just learn how to shut that off from your mind. So the less I thought about it, you know, it's like how many times I fought, you know, let's say the week before the fight, that's when you start more, when you're concerned

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  the most because now it's getting very close. Before it's just far away. You know, it's, it's normal to think of the tournament. You get a bit nervous, but it goes away quick. But the fight, you know, the week before, now you're constantly thinking of that day. And every time you think adrenaline pumps in, your heart accelerate, you know, it doesn't, you know, it makes it, it's like, why am I feeling this? What difference will it make? So you kind of, you're shutting that thought out of your mind because you don't want to feel the adrenaline, your heart accelerating. It's not going to add you anything. So it's, you know, it's the practice also that I think it helped me to shut that off my mind.

• 1:00:52Lex Fridman?

  Has that helped you in regular life?

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. It's, you know, it's suddenly when you go into any, any situation that might be stressful, you know, like an important meeting, no super, whatever it is, it's like, how much would you worry about that before? Worry is not going to help you anywhere. It's the opposite, just going to make you more nervous, your heart accelerate, your abilities to think clearly is going to be damaged by that. So it's like the more calm, the more relaxed you are, the better you can think of.

• 1:01:25Lex Fridman?

  Do you ever get angry?

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Lex Fridman?

  Like in traffic? Do you ever get like not calm, just like you're screaming?

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  Not not in a screaming, no.

• 1:01:34Lex Fridman?

  But just angry. What does angry look like? Is it still calm?

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a few seconds of complaining, but then it goes away.

• 1:01:43Lex Fridman?

  Have you ever like thrown a cellphone at a wall or something like that?

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  No, I never get that angry. That's just silly. It's like it's it's if I would have done that, I would not be able to control my emotions prior to fight.

• 1:01:59Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, so that letting yourself lose.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, losing control that will reflect other times.

• 1:02:08Lex Fridman?

  Do you think it has make in part made you more emotionally closed off from the world? Like you're you're it's harder for you to be vulnerable to others?

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Probably. Yeah, but I I heard that a few times. Very emotionally close. It's yeah, maybe. That I think that influenced it. Yeah.

• 1:02:28Lex Fridman?

  Have you ever cried in a movie?

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, for not for many years, but for I think maybe I'm getting older.

• 1:02:34Lex Fridman?

  Do you remember the movie?

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Something. That's a silly movie. I mean, it's no, I mean.

• 1:02:39Lex Fridman?

  Is it The Notebook?

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I would say the last few years I've been crying more than before for some reason. I don't know why. Like silly movies, like nothing suddenly brings tears to my eyes.

• 1:02:52Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Well, I've already I already just having met you and interacted with you. I can see that you're kind of opening your heart and mind to the world. You could you could see like here's this historically great athlete. Now, like the wars have been fought and you're now like waking up to the world. It's it's cool to see.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Probably I'm bringing my guard down now. I don't have to keep it up.

• 1:03:19Lex Fridman?

  You can even do some podcasts. You said you watch like movies beforehand sometimes. Mention Braveheart. What were you doing? Did you watch something beforehand, like the day before?

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  I used to. Yeah, I there was like I think Braveheart. And Gladiator, I mean, there's a few others that I've always watched the day before because the day before is to do nothing. Yeah, I just want to be at home in bed, watching TV, like saving, you know, energy, stretching by myself. So it's like it's, I just want to save energy. I don't waste my energy going out, going around. So, you know, those are the movies that I always like to watch, kind of try to bring some, you know, hyper excitement, like, you know, I'm getting ready to war tomorrow. So I'm like, let me watch some movies that like brought that, you know, some that warrior spirit into me.

• 1:04:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. What is that about human nature? Braveheart, I love even more. Should you put your life on the line for a thing that matters or run away just so you can live? It's like running, you may live, but like years from now, when you look back at this moment, would you trade all the days just to come back to this moment?

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  And tell the English.

• 1:04:35Lex Fridman?

  You could take our lives, but you can't take our freedom. I mean, wow, man. What is that about human nature?

• 1:04:45Lex Fridman?

  Is there some aspect of like the glory you were able to achieve being more important than anything else? There's some aspect of that, that that's greatness, you know?

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I never pursue glory. So it's, it just came, you know, it is, it came with it, but that was never my goal. I never care for glory.

• 1:05:08Lex Fridman?

  Were you able to experience like, like I'm at the height of this thing? Whatever, whatever humanity is able to achieve in various things, holy shit, I'm flying.

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  I felt like no one can touch me. I can destroy people. Yeah.

• 1:05:27Lex Fridman?

  Prolonged periods of time or just momentarily?

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  I always knew, you know, from before I got to a black belt, like I, you know, I can be great. Because my, you know, I used to train with the best in the world. I still, you know, for many years and I used to see my progression with and everybody else. So I knew I was getting somewhere. I know I could be the best. And that was, that was always my goal since very, very young. And I always believed that I could be. And that, over the years, that kept telling me over and over again. Because I'm getting better and better faster than everybody else. So it's, I just need to carry on with what I'm doing.

• 1:06:15Lex Fridman?

  But I think you've said that you wanted to, and maybe you thought you could be the greatest of all time. Like, at the very beginning, like when you sucked.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, not, not the greatest of all time, because I never really thought about that. But I thought I'm gonna be the best in the world when I sucked, when I sucked.

• 1:06:37Lex Fridman?

  Okay, so what is that?

• 1:06:40Lex Fridman?

  What is that? Like, that self-belief? Is there a component to that self-belief being a prerequisite?

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  It's, it's difficult to say because that was a decision, I think. Like, why did I believe I could be? I, I can't tell you that, because I don't know.

• 1:06:57Lex Fridman?

  But you think you decided to be?

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  I decided to be, I decided to be and I believed I could.

• 1:07:01Lex Fridman?

  You think there was like a day somewhere when you were young where you're like, huh? You're sitting on a couch, eating Cheetos.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  I don't think it was a day, like a moment. Because

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  for many years, I wasn't really training much as a child. You know, I've done a bit of, I used to train and then stop, done a bit of Judo. Never stay away from it much, but until, you know.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Like from ten to fourteen, I barely trained jiu-jitsu much. I used to, there was no Gracie school near where I used to live. And I was doing, there was a jiu-jitsu, a judo school, I used to go twice a week. I went to a jiu-jitsu tournament, I lost in five seconds, left crying. The guy, he pulled me in five seconds, anyway. So, when I was fourteen, I went to the south of Brazil to see my uncle Hillyon. To spend like summer holidays, I was there for like four weeks, I think. And I, when I got there, my cousin Hollis were living with him. Hollis like, bigger than me, he was, I think he's four years, four years older. So I was fourteen, he was already eighteen, seventeen, eighteen.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Purple belt competitor. And I think that was the first time in my life that I felt what it mean, what it meant to be a Gracie. In terms of having a school, teaching, training, you know, living that, you know, jiu-jitsu lifestyle, what a Gracie mean to be. And I've just, I've loved it. I was out of shape. My uncle was like, you know, incentivizing me to lose weight, to train. But you're not training why, you know, it's like, you've got a shape, you need to diet. So I used, I used to run every day, I was eating super well, I start, you know, I start, that when I start changing. So when I got back to Rio, I was super motivated to follow up, carry on. And he, you know, he invited me to go back there to live with him.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  But I couldn't, it was too soon and to change schools and everything. My mom said, no, but maybe next year, if you wanna go, you can. So I kept that in my mind, next year, I moved to the south to live with him. I was fifteen. And it was him, my uncle Hillyon, and my uncle Crawling. They both used to live very close each other, they also have their own schools close to each other. So I was with both. And I stayed there for almost a year. I mean, I was the youngest in the academy, there was some, you know, blue, purple belts, normal guy, but they're already competing. Training ahead of me, and I just joined the group of training. I didn't compete while I was there, because there was no competition that then.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  And I wasn't really ready, but it's not about competing, it's more about the training. And I started training every day, started improving. And year after that, when I came back to Rio, I was already on a mission. I was like, I love this. I'm just carry on training every day with my uncle Carlos, Carlos Gracie Junior, Gracie Barra. And the one I got there, I was training a little bit there before, but I was just fourteen, fifteen. But when I got there, there was a, you know, there was one of, that was one of the most competitive, one of the biggest jiu jitsu schools at the time. There were so many high level world champions, competitors in every single belt. And so I've kind of joined in with that.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  And I've carried on, I don't remember when, but I remember, you know, looking and saying, I'm gonna be the best in the world. But I used to be, I was at the bottom of the stairs, you know, no one really believed me. I didn't shout, you know, to, to disguise, but you know, I told a few people, I'm like, I'm gonna be the best. And that's, I think, I was just losing, but I've never, ever doubt. I've never diverged from that mission, I would say.

• 1:10:51Lex Fridman?

  Did anyone believe you when you said you're gonna be great?

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Nobody.

• 1:10:54Lex Fridman?

  Did it matter?

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Didn't matter. I don't care. I don't need.

• 1:10:57Lex Fridman?

  Even people that like love you?

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Everybody, my mom, my dad, I mean, no one thought, no one in my family thought I was gonna be here today. Nobody. Because I just started late, you know, I've, I've never had any start that people, oh, that kid's gonna be really good. No, I was a chubby kid that didn't barely train. I mean, people used to look at me, just another Gracie, there's, you know, one more.

• 1:11:23Lex Fridman?

  What do you learn from that? Do you think most people lose that self-belief? They quit when everyone around them doesn't believe?

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think if, if those that need approval, yes.

• 1:11:38Lex Fridman?

  I see you shouldn't have approval.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  I never need approval from anyone. I don't care if you believe you're not, if you're, not my problem.

• 1:11:47Lex Fridman?

  It's tough, it's tough. I don't need approval, but.

• 1:11:53Lex Fridman?

  You're surrounded by people older, wiser, better than you. And they're kind of directly or indirectly saying, you stop being silly kid.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  No, no one ever told me that because I, I, it's not, that was not something that I used to say all the time. I maybe say it just very, very few times.

• 1:12:11Lex Fridman?

  I just, well, you know, maybe that's the secret is don't say.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Of course. I mean, if you start shouting, then you're just being silly. Then it's not what you really want. Then you're saying that for another reasons. If you say it over and over again, because you shouldn't. I mean, that's why.

• 1:12:25Lex Fridman?

  Well, to push back, one of the reasons you might want to say it is to find the right people that believe in you.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but not if you say over and over again, then it's just, then you're just bragging.

• 1:12:37Lex Fridman?

  Sure.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Cause one thing is to say it, but the other one is to do it. So it's, you know, you say that once or very few times, but now you have to do it. Saying is not helping you getting there.

• 1:12:51Lex Fridman?

  Was there sacrifices you had to make?

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Everything, everything. That was my priority in life. Everything was secondary.

• 1:12:58Lex Fridman?

  Like social life?

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Lex Fridman?

  Career paths?

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, everything.

• 1:13:05Lex Fridman?

  And is it from 14, 15, 16, as you get better and better, better and better? It was just becoming sharper, the focus on this thing?

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just over and over again, over and over again. It's, you know, it's just training, training, training. And I mean, how many times I lost, I have no clue.

• 1:13:26Lex Fridman?

  So on the mat, you were getting beat up?

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  I'm getting smashed by everybody. People my age, I was chubby, I was physically weak. I mean, I'm tall, but physically, I'm not physically strong. I'm normally strong for my size, but physically, if you want to measure strength, I'm weak. Because, you know, we can measure strength, living weight, lifting weights. I'm weak. I don't lift. I lift weight same as people much lighter than me. Everybody my, my weight lifts heavier weight.

• 1:13:58Lex Fridman?

  And then people that train with you often talk about how strong you are.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  I'm super strong.

• 1:14:02Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  Because I generate a lot of strength. I can create. I, I put myself in the right angles so then I can be strong. I'm not strong. And the only person who I. Listen to saying that is Kumpito, one guy that I fought, Hidjung Mederos. I fought him a few times. And he's the only one that I heard saying about me that's like, no, Roger's not strong. He's not, he's technical and he's, he can create strength, but he's not strong.

• 1:14:34Lex Fridman?

  He meant that as a compliment?

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. No, I think he was honest because I think he's the only one who could see that.

• 1:14:42Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  So I think that's a compliment.

• 1:14:44Lex Fridman?

  So he's technically really strong. So you had incredible match with him.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:50Lex Fridman?

  Is there insight you have about how you went from a person

• 1:14:58Lex Fridman?

  who was not very good, but had a dream, a confident dream,

• 1:15:06Lex Fridman?

  a vision to somebody that was actually good? Was there something to the practice sessions? Were you getting reps on a specific techniques?

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  I'd never done anything special because I mean, I'm in a gym training equally with everybody else. So I've never did anything on the side different than anybody else. So I've been, I was in the school training the exact same way as everybody else.

• 1:15:28Lex Fridman?

  Wow. In terms of schedule, yes, but what was, can you reverse engineer what was going through your mind? Cause there's so many different ways to actually mentally approach the same exact training session.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  I'm gonna try to beat you.

• 1:15:41Lex Fridman?

  Okay. So in some part it's competitive.

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:44Lex Fridman?

  Like at the core of it is I want to be better than these particular people.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  You're gonna keep beating me. I'm gonna keep coming back at you.

• 1:15:53Lex Fridman?

  And to do that, I have to solve problems. I have to figure out how to do stuff.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  You catch me once, I'm gonna keep on coming, trying to not get, get, get caught on that.

• 1:16:03Lex Fridman?

  At which point did you develop a game that was basically the white, the famous white belt game of the very basics, the very fundamentals of jiu jitsu, like saying, I'm going to beat you.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  Never, there was never, there was never a conscious decision to, to try the, you know, to have a basic jiu jitsu first. I think there's a big misconception there.

• 1:16:27Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  My jiu jitsu is not basic.

• 1:16:30Lex Fridman?

  It's not, you're right.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  It's not basic. It's not old school. I think people, they just don't see that. It's extremely complex. In a way that is people they cannot copy. I teach people, you know, I can teach you the cross collar choke, but the one thing that people they don't realize is not the move is you need to practice the move until you learn is the practice over and over again. Like it took me years. When I say years, I'm like years after I was a black belt, I was able to choke people out with a cross collar choke in them out effectively. Years after I got my black belt. So that's something that you learn first day, first week.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  So I can't teach you, it makes no difference. You, you know the theory, but until you apply it, I mean, you help you, of course, the more details you learn, you know, the, the more tools you have to practice, but it's still very complex because it's not about the move itself, it's about how can you control the movement of the other person. He's resisting, you're blocking, you cannot predict what you do, and he's doing a whole bunch of moves to, to block you. Every single move you do, step of the way, because it's a, is, is a progression of move from beginning to end till I apply the choke. It's a progression of move and there's not one way to get that, there's many ways because

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  how many ways can you block? You can put your arm in every single angle, we have both arms, you can bridge. So it's dealing with all that, that is the, that is the complexity, complexity of the position. But that goes for everything, like every single move, my strong moves, I would say, it took me years developing them, years. So it's, and you're gonna tell me that's basic, so go try and do it. What the other person is defending, that's the thing, because most of the things that I do, I've been doing them for years. And I, they know that I'm gonna do and I can still get it most of the times. That's

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  the hardest, is when they know what's coming and you can still do it.

• 1:18:43Lex Fridman?

  And you, you said that the way you're able to do that, you just have to do it right?

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:50Lex Fridman?

  What do you learn by doing all the steps along the way? And just for people who don't know, cross collar choke from the mount? So it just starts in a neutral place. There's people on their feet and then you either then you get to the ground somehow and then there's a person on top and on bottom and then there's a guard with the legs between the two people and then you can get past the guard as you get past the guard and you into side control and so on, you get more and more and more dominant positions. And so mount is considered to be one of the most dominant positions. It's when you're past their legs, sitting on top of their stomach, putting pressure on them and cross collar choke is using their jacket to, how would you explain that?

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  To have the collars, I put my both hands on your collars and when I squeeze it, you press your neck, so it blocks the vein, you go to sleep. So you choke people with your hands in the wrist, you put them, you know, you grab the collar, so you got the wrist around people's neck and you squeeze.

• 1:19:54Lex Fridman?

  Yep. The discovery of that is fascinating. I mean, because it's interesting. It's like, you know, you can imagine there's all kinds of ways to choke a human being. What animals do it with their like mouth, right? They put like their jaws around the, and the fact that you can kind of discover this methodology of the right kind of positioning and then it becomes an art form, like of why this, why not this, right? Or why not this or something? Like to figure all that out.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  We practice, that will come easy.

• 1:20:26Lex Fridman?

  Over time, you figure out what works and what not and then, and then more further and further details and subtleties start to emerge. Anyway, on that process of beating, of being able to beat some of the best people in the world in the thing they know is coming, what is, what's the difference between the white belt doing that and Hadra Gracie doing that? The thing that's so hard to explain. What do you think you're picking up? Is it some tiny, tiny details of muscle movements?

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  It is. It's many tiny details because it's the whole movement itself, is the perception from beginning to end, like every step of that movement, it's important and precise. So it's, you know, you miss one, one detail on the way, it collapses. So when I say that with the black belt, the black belt has no control over the whole movement. He's thinking beginning and end. So he goes straight to your, you know, straight to your neck regardless, he cannot read the other person. If it's, you know, if it's time to let go, if it's the time to go for a neck, should I be pushing here before I get my hand in? You know, is this the right time to go deep or should I deal with this first before the second hand?

• 1:21:38Lex Fridman?

  That's at the beginning, so it's at the white belt.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:40Lex Fridman?

  At the very beginning of the journey.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, the white belt, you just think, finish.

• 1:21:45Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:48Lex Fridman?

  And then as you get progress, you see that there's like this giant tree of possibilities that you're almost feeling your way down. I mean, would you be able to teach?

• 1:22:01Lex Fridman?

  Do you even know what you're doing?

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  By the details.

• 1:22:04Lex Fridman?

  Okay. But it's hard to convert into words, probably.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:22:09Lex Fridman?

  It's possible.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Then you don't know what you're doing.

• 1:22:11Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 1:22:15Lex Fridman?

  So what is, what are some most important details? That you could say maybe positioning of the hand, the gripping? Is it the positioning of your body, the posture? Is there some interesting like insights?

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  It's a combination because first you have to put your body in a very strong position that you don't require your hands to hold them out. So the choke is that that's first because I cannot, I cannot use my hands on the floor to stop you escaping.

• 1:22:43Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  So if I had to, my body has to handle that. The way I position myself, I have to do it in a way that don't require my hands for balance.

• 1:22:53Lex Fridman?

  Okay. Why is the mouth such a dominant position? It doesn't make any sense, right? Like you're just sitting on top of the stomach of a person.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  It makes all sense. If you think what's, forget, forget fighting, forget Jiu Jitsu. Like you've never trained. What's the one position, the most dominant position? You can get over another human being. One, the most for you, which one it is? Like the most dominant position that you can get over another human being.

• 1:23:23Lex Fridman?

  So if we were just, because the way I think about it is putting myself in like a six, seven, eight year old self without knowing any martial arts and I had an older brother who'd beat the shit out of me. Uh, yeah, it probably was mount. It was.

• 1:23:41Lex Fridman?

  But, well, yes. Okay. So we both didn't know, but if we knew something, it'd probably be back control.

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  If in the back control, you're under the other person, the thing being under is the most dominant position it can be over another person?

• 1:23:55Lex Fridman?

  You mean like a back control?

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  If I'm on your back.

• 1:23:57Lex Fridman?

  Oh, like that.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  You can move, you can roll. I cannot stop you rolling.

• 1:24:00Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  Maybe you can't even stand up. How dominant is that?

• 1:24:05Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, but if we're the same size, both untrained.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  If, no, it doesn't matter.

• 1:24:09Lex Fridman?

  Have you seen kids, they do that. Okay. Mount looks and feels like dominance when you're two eight year olds fighting. Okay. I don't know. I don't know why it feels that way. It could be some animalistic thing. Maybe it is actual dominance. I don't know, but it feels like if you're untrained, you can just buck your way out of it. It feels unstable. It feels unstable to hold mount unless you know what you're doing. Right? No?

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Well, if you're mount, you put both of your hands on the floor.

• 1:24:36Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  Just your hands. Do you think it's easy to take somebody off?

• 1:24:41Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, maybe not.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  Do you think it's easy to remove their hand and bring them out? Their hands on the floor. Arms straight. I'm leaning in.

• 1:24:49Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  I mean, you don't need to know fighting to hold yourself down.

• 1:24:54Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. But you're right. When you take the arms off and balancing, then it gets tricky. Because when you're trying to, uh, I think what happens, I'm thinking back to eight year old. Because my, my brother's five years older than me and he would do the usual like stop hitting yourself thing. And I think he would be in mount, like hitting me with my own hands. Uh, from, out of place of love, of course. Um, I love him deeply and it was very formative and a positive experience for me. Okay. Uh, I think, yeah, the weakness is when he takes. Well, when the person who has the mount takes their arms off to to do something.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  But even if you keep your hands up in the air, when I'm falling.

• 1:25:37Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you can.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  When I'm falling, so.

• 1:25:39Lex Fridman?

  I'm speaking about untrained people. I feel like they get greedy. They try to do stuff.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  The other day I watched my nine year old daughter.

• 1:25:47Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Well, in a friend's house, there's a whole bunch of kids there. They're playing. And when I looked, she's mounting the boy, her age, her size. He cannot escape.

• 1:25:58Lex Fridman?

  Wow, she probably has seen.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  No, she trained. She's been training for, I'll say, a year and a half.

• 1:26:03Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  Which is not much. I mean, she's a nine year old daughter, a girl over a boy.

• 1:26:07Lex Fridman?

  Has she seen footage of you? Maybe she picked up.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  No, but she she's been training for a year and a half, so she has an idea what mount is. But, I mean, it comes about skills. I don't never taught her the mount.

• 1:26:19Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  If she has, you know, she had lessons at the academy, like any other kid.

• 1:26:25Lex Fridman?

  Did she make him cry or?

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  No, but he couldn't escape. Which which other position would she be able to hold that boy? In the in the back, he would roll it out.

• 1:26:36Lex Fridman?

  That's true.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Like, he couldn't come out from underneath. She's their kids. Like, there is no other most dominant position that you can pin the other person.

• 1:26:44Lex Fridman?

  Couldn't you argue from that perspective, side control?

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:26:49Lex Fridman?

  No?

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Because side control, you have to to hold the other person. And it's you're not free. You you you cannot release him.

• 1:26:57Lex Fridman?

  But inside control, your hips are not on top of theirs. So they can't buck you off, right? Could you if you're holding them a little bit and you can hit them with one hand?

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  But his head is here. You're gonna hurt him here. But the time you're doing that, but then he has his arms free. And if you turn towards your legs, then he's away from your arms. You not even has the perfect angle. I mean, it is a good position. You can hit, you can dominate. But it's not the best position to be over the other person. He can knee you in the head. At the same time, you punch him, then there's a knee coming to your head.

• 1:27:39Lex Fridman?

  I love playing devil's advocate with Roger Gracie about two eight year olds fighting.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  You and you, your head is closer to his hand.

• 1:27:46Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Maybe he can give throw you a punch.

• 1:27:49Lex Fridman?

  All right.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  So would you would you choose to be inside control of a mount?

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Getting in the head.

• 1:27:54Lex Fridman?

  Well, for a person who in competition prefers neon belly over mouth. Uh, but that's my weakness. That's my failure as a human being. Holding mouth is, is can be tricky.

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  It's very hard. Of course it's hard. But what is easy?

• 1:28:09Lex Fridman?

  Uh, side control and neon belly is easier, but to submit.

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Neon belly is easy.

• 1:28:15Lex Fridman?

  Easier. I'm not saying black belt level. I'm saying, or maybe even black belt level.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  Easier for what? To hold somebody?

• 1:28:22Lex Fridman?

  To make them squirm and hurt, to create openings.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but go to there with a big guy.

• 1:28:28Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you can.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  You can't.

• 1:28:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  He's gonna push you back and come up. In the mouth, he can't sit up. Not when you mounted him.

• 1:28:37Lex Fridman?

  The thing is also about mouth is people on the bottom of mouth panic more. So they fight harder.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  First they panic. They're, they're, they're exposed.

• 1:28:45Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  It's the most exposure you, you have. Because the person's arms are free. You cannot touch him. His head is too high. There's nothing he can do. His legs won't get you anywhere. He might touch your lower back. It's like nothing. You do, you, you, you, you're most exposed being in the mouth.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  I'd rather you hold me side control a thousand times than mount on me and having to look up for your fist come down on me.

• 1:29:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  Side control. I hug you, you cannot hurt me.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Okay, you hold me, but I'm hugging you. If I hug, hug you tight, what can you do against me? Hold.

• 1:29:23Lex Fridman?

  It seems, maybe it's just from, uh, and again, I'm arguing just for the fun of it. But, um, it seems like a more difficult skill to learn. To apply a huge amount of pressure and weight from mouth.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  You don't have to apply pressure and weight from mouth?

• 1:29:42Lex Fridman?

  Not, not apply pressure, but be heavy, right?

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  You don't necessarily need to be heavy.

• 1:29:47Lex Fridman?

  You don't?

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:29:50Lex Fridman?

  Why, why do you, as people say, you feel extremely heavy?

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  If I'm putting, if I'm being heavy, I cannot attack. I have to choose. I can be heavy just to penalize, you know, just to pin them, take their energy out, you know, to make them suffer. But the moment that I decide to attack, I can only be heavy if I'm sitting up straight. That's when my, all my weight can drops down. If I'm high, then I'm sitting on your chest and on your, on your, on your solar plexus. That's the worst position to be seated on the person because that's where he breathes. So you're in a high mount, sitting up straight. That's when you can, I can be very heavy. I can make people, you know, feel my weight and, you know, be very uncomfortable, but I'm not in a position

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  to attack. The moment that I want to attack, my body has to lean forward. I have to approach the, you know, the, the neck or the arms. The moment that I do that, my weight comes off my hips. It goes to my knees. The weight is off you.

• 1:30:48Lex Fridman?

  But at that point, if you have.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  Now I'm attacking. I'm no longer heavy on you.

• 1:30:53Lex Fridman?

  But you want to be at that point to remove any of the defenses they have or some of the defenses by getting their elbows.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Now, now I'm like either getting, trying to get your collar or bringing your elbow across to attack the arm lock.

• 1:31:04Lex Fridman?

  So what are some interesting details along the way that are tough to get to figure out? What were the big leaps for you from white belt to, to, to the best in the world?

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  It's, you're trying to attack the neck, you know, putting one hand in the collar. You're priving yourself that hand to pace it on the floor.

• 1:31:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  So now you're vulnerable to get breached, to get rolled over. Because if your hands are free trying to roll you over, you're stopped. The moment that you put your hand in the person's collar, now you have to be very careful with your body positioning, very careful.

• 1:31:34Lex Fridman?

  The distribution of the weight.

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And how, you know, how high you sit, you know, how tall your, your, your, your, your upper body goes. And then the biggest challenge comes as you're trying the second hand. That's the, you know, for the, for the choke, that's the biggest challenge, the second hand. Because you already have, you know, you already don't have one hand. Now you, you, you are trying the second hand and. If one of my hand is in, you as a defending yourself have two hands. One hand is already on one side, this this side is getting attack. You have two hands blocking that. I have one hand, there's no help for that hand. I cannot remove anything.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  That's the biggest challenge, getting one hand getting past two and not getting rollover.

• 1:32:25Lex Fridman?

  But I also have two hands on bottom, I have two hands and can also turn and do all kinds of stuff.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:32Lex Fridman?

  And my whole mind and everything is focused on that second hand.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a big challenge, it's hard, very hard.

• 1:32:39Lex Fridman?

  Is there an art to getting the first hand into a place where you?

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  It's less of an art because it's easier. I'll say most times I get my first hand in is when you're trying to move. You're trying to escape, you're pushing, I get the first hand in as an opportunity.

• 1:32:57Lex Fridman?

  And it's gonna sit there for a while.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:00Lex Fridman?

  And now.

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  And I go as deep as I can, so the first hand, because the second hand is the hardest. I have to compensate the first hand to be as deep as I can. If I cannot get the first hand in deep, I won't try the second. I need that first hand deep, then I go for the.

• 1:33:16Lex Fridman?

  And it's deep and everything is like super like tight?

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Super tight. The first hand has to be super tight, otherwise the chance of failing is very big.

• 1:33:26Lex Fridman?

  Does the opponent usually feel like they're screwed at that point also?

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  Not as you put in the first hand in. The moment that I position myself just prior to attempt the second hand. I think the way I my body is positioned, the way I'm collapsing with my weight and they feel this like it's, you know. This is terrible.

• 1:33:46Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, how long did it take you to figure out how to reposition your weight once the first hand is in?

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Very quickly, because I get breached out.

• 1:33:54Lex Fridman?

  Okay, so that there's a good feedback loop there.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Because one mistake you out, like one off positioning you out.

• 1:34:03Lex Fridman?

  But you still have to do that against the best people in the world.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Lex Fridman?

  Where's the way out for most people? Like if you were in mount against Buchesia or some of the best defenses in the world?

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  I do. The way out is to, I mean, is, the obsolete is to defend themselves and, you know, prevent the first hand to get deep. And I would say the best thing that they could do is try to change my positioning on the mount in a way that, you know, push me to a very low mount. You know, try to, to, to, to, to change the way I'm dominating you, not to be, you know, get me off the high mount, pretty much. Are you always, is it a slow, is it a fast thing to go from low to fast mount? Uh, high mount? Slow, very slow. Because I need to beat your arms. Because you're holding me down. And the arms need to come out? It's, it's a slow, it's a slow process. Okay. And you just, is there like a?

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, is, is, so I use my legs against your arms. So it's my legs pushing your arms. But how do you get them? How do you get your legs into the elbows? It's, as long as it's, you know, it has to come under the tip of your elbow. Because now the legs will start forcing your arms up. So your legs aren't like spread out, they're? No. They're in? Your elbow cannot get inside my leg. Because, because that means I'm in a very low mount. And then I cannot attack. Because I cannot ignore that. Because the moment that I attack, that will, he will start pushing my leg to push me up. What's the secret to getting the second hand in?

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  There's two ways. Either you go four fingers inside, which is the hardest, because with the moment that your two hands are defending, you'll be blocking the, the, the, you know, the, the way. And I cannot clear and attack two hands against one. So I go thumb in, I go behind the ear. Yep. So my, my grip goes, because for you to defend, you need to get there. Yep. And when you get there, you elevate your elbow, you expose the arm lock. So it's hard.

• 1:36:07Lex Fridman?

  So you put the thumb in and then there's the dreaded. Like the other person just waits for you to loop the arm over.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that that's over.

• 1:36:19Lex Fridman?

  It's uh once you get the thumb in, it's over. Okay.

• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  No, but when I'm there, it's if I get that it because they are bridging, you know, they try and I'm I'm not using their hand to pose.

• 1:36:31Lex Fridman?

  Now your head is.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  My head is very close to the floor when I've tried to bridge and you know, my forehead would touch the floor that would be used as a hand.

• 1:36:37Lex Fridman?

  But it's not on the floor.

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  Not necessarily.

• 1:36:40Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  Because if it's on the floor, my body's collapse over you.

• 1:36:44Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  So there's no place for my hand for me to work on your neck. So I need some space between us. So I don't completely.

• 1:36:50Lex Fridman?

  Maybe you can bob up and down.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but I try to keep a gap between us.

• 1:36:55Lex Fridman?

  Cool. So that pursuit that takes many, many, many, many years. I don't know if you've seen Jiro Dreams of Sushi. The doing the simple thing. That's not so simple, but it kind of looks simple of the over and over and over and over and over and presumably getting much better.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  Very simple.

• 1:37:15Lex Fridman?

  It becomes very simple, but you're picking up details probably along the way. There's wisdom along the way. What is that? Is that um? There's like lessons that you just kind of accumulate over time. Like one training sessions, you'll see maybe um like the positioning of the thumb, like this detailed positioning of the thumb or something like this. And then you're like, okay, you like load that in.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  That that will be very basic because there is not that many different ways. Maybe one, two, I just do one. Any other is not as strong because it's it's about getting a strong grip on your collar. I mean, the sun is it's the thumb goes inside, you know, is it the thumb in or or four fingers in? But it's getting a strong grip on the collar. As long as they know this is just holding and feeling strong.

• 1:38:10Lex Fridman?

  So that's just two options. So uh it's the dynamic stuff along the way.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:15Lex Fridman?

  And then some of that is timing too.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  It's timing.

• 1:38:17Lex Fridman?

  Are you also like making people like faking them out, making them think about something else?

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  No, not at that point. That's not because I cannot fake anything else at that point. Because I will have to change my positioning to maybe to fake an arm lock. Then I have to move out from that. So then I will lose that the control I have.

• 1:38:38Lex Fridman?

  So what's the process towards mastery? If you were to convert that to something that generalizes beyond jiu jitsu, how can you get that good at a simple thing?

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  Practice.

• 1:38:50Lex Fridman?

  And what?

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  That's simple.

• 1:38:51Lex Fridman?

  The same exact thing over and over.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  It's just a matter of how long it will take you.

• 1:38:57Lex Fridman?

  So all that's true. That's true.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  I mean, like I said.

• 1:39:02Lex Fridman?

  That's true.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  Look how long it took me. People give up along the way.

• 1:39:07Lex Fridman?

  There is intricacies to that journey towards perfection. There's a lot of people that do jiu jitsu for decades and don't get better.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  No, because they don't train the way they should. They don't train to get better. They train to get tough. There's a big difference. Most people, they train to get tough, so they are tough. You know, like we were talking before, they don't practice their weakness. You want to be good at, you want to be really good at jiu jitsu. You have to practice your weakness, not your strength. You have to practice everything, but you have to be equally strong in every position. They're all exactly the same. You know, your guard, top, bottom, side control, top, bottom, turtle, half guard, mount, back. I mean, you pick, takedown. It's and then you get into details of escaping triangle.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Applying the, you know, triangle, escaping arm lock, different scenarios of, you know, it's the one thing is defending the arm lock when you, you know, have your time, your arms very close to your body. The other thing is to defend the arms when your arm is, you know, almost getting. And then when he got your arm. So there's so many things to practice that you need to repeat them over and over again until you're confident enough that when you get there, you have a chance.

• 1:40:28Lex Fridman?

  And you could do the same kind of thing for even the final stages of a cross choke from up.

• 1:40:33Speaker 01

  Everything. I mean, of course, like you don't practice escaping the arm lock with a full arm straight. Because, you know, it's that's gone. I mean, you practice. You know, you practice escaping the arm lock. When he takes your arm, you have, you know, you have a chance of trying to escape, but you don't practice. You know, okay, take my arm. When I say go, go, I mean, you got, you know, you pop the arm. That is like you get injured doing that. Escaping the cross collar choke, it's, I mean, scape not letting the person get there. You can scape, you can practice escaping triangles because you know, it's like, it's you, you have a way better chance of escaping triangle than, okay, mount to me, put both hands in my neck.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  I mean, it's over, you know, don't be there.

• 1:41:22Lex Fridman?

  What's the best submission in jiu jitsu?

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  A choke, I would say.

• 1:41:26Lex Fridman?

  From which position?

• 1:41:30Lex Fridman?

  If, if I gave you a billion dollars to start in a position, like in a submission and you only get the billion if, if you get the submission, which one would you start?

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Cross collar choke in the mouth.

• 1:41:44Lex Fridman?

  Cross collar choke in the mouth, not from the back?

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  No, you have a better chance escaping from the back.

• 1:41:51Lex Fridman?

  Really?

• 1:41:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:52Lex Fridman?

  Even with the hooks?

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  Even with everything.

• 1:41:54Lex Fridman?

  Do you think some people disagree with you?

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  I don't care. I have a better escape, I have a better chance escaping from the back than if you mount to me, put my hands on my neck.

• 1:42:03Lex Fridman?

  So if you were facing yourself and I will give you a billion dollars to escape, you, you would, you would pick?

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  From the back, thousand times over, like no compare.

• 1:42:15Lex Fridman?

  You have like a, with hooks, with like a triangle?

• 1:42:18Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter, you can do whatever you want.

• 1:42:20Lex Fridman?

  Like a body triangle, okay, okay.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  Like a thousand times over, like no question.

• 1:42:25Lex Fridman?

  So to you, the mount is a super controlling position, it's not just?

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  Because cross collar choke in the mouth, the moment that you put both hands on my neck, you know, you have to, your arms need to be very close to your body to attack. So that mean there's very little space between us. So that means there's very little escape space for you to work on your escape. And the moment that you cannot bridge, let's suppose I have, you know, the person has a good mount, so you cannot bridge him off. What else? You don't have space to try to work on your defense. Being in the back, I have all this space around me to work on my defense, to my arms, I have the mobility to bring them anywhere. So I, because of that, it gives you and me a much better chance.

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  And you cannot, I can't move my body. You feel my, you feel my back, you, you cannot pin me. You might, I cannot take you off my back. First, I need to defend the choke, but you have no control over my body. So that means there's still a lot of movement that I can try to use to escape. In the mount, there's no movement. I'm pinned down, I cannot move, and I have no space between us to escape.

• 1:43:40Lex Fridman?

  Well, the argument against that, Mrs. Gray, is that on the bottom of mount, I, the, I do have my hands between. So you're saying they're pinned, there's nothing.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Between where?

• 1:43:52Lex Fridman?

  I mean, you could get them in theory, you could somehow, you could.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  But there's no, you can, but then there's no space. They'll be squeezed between our bodies.

• 1:44:01Lex Fridman?

  If it's an incredible, if it's an incredible mount.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  No, it does not mount, like how standing. If I put both hands on your neck, if I'm gonna go for the cross collar choke, after I get my hands in, the next step is to pull you close to me. So it's this, my arms need to be close to me.

• 1:44:17Lex Fridman?

  But I can put, there's a hands that could do something.

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  They can come in, but there's, they are very limited space between us.

• 1:44:25Lex Fridman?

  Yes, yeah, no, I mean, to push your body away, to, to decrease the power.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  Standing, not if your back is against the floor.

• 1:44:30Lex Fridman?

  Okay, the argument against the mount is, or the argument for back control as being the most dominant position, is even though I have hands, I can't really use them effectively, as effectively.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  Not in the mount, there's no space.

• 1:44:44Lex Fridman?

  The mount, there's no space.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  There's no space. You can try, I mean, you can squeeze your hand in, I mean, there's, there's still things that you could do, but they're so limited.

• 1:44:54Lex Fridman?

  So if you polled the hundred best competitors of all time, what do you think they would answer to that? Do you think most would agree with you?

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  I don't care.

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  He showed me their skills, their ability to see.

• 1:45:14Lex Fridman?

  Okay, so the perfect mount versus the perfect back control.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  There's no question.

• 1:45:18Lex Fridman?

  Okay, there's no question.

• 1:45:19Speaker 01

  For me, I mean, argue with me, like, show me, because I'm not being stubborn, because I'm being.

• 1:45:26Lex Fridman?

  Scientific.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  So explain it to me why the back, it would be harder, it would be better to your position to finish than mount. If you can explain it to me why, I might change my mind.

• 1:45:42Lex Fridman?

  I was trying to, but I don't have the cred.

• 1:45:50Lex Fridman?

  I'm like a middle school science student trying to talk to Einstein here. Okay, besides you, who do you think is the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time?

• 1:46:02Lex Fridman?

  Can you make the case for some of them? Marcelo, Bucheche, Leandro Lo.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  I'll have to go with Bucheche, because look at the, how many titles he has. I mean, he has by far more than Marcelo. Marcelo stopped quite early. Leandro Lo has eight, but Bucheche is better than him.

• 1:46:22Lex Fridman?

  What do you think makes Bucheche so good?

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  He's a heavyweight that moves like a lightweight. He's, he moves very fast, but he's very agile for his size.

• 1:46:32Lex Fridman?

  So the agility combined with aggression.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's very hard to control him, because he moves fast and he's 112 kilos, 115 sometimes, or 110. I'm not sure, but he's about around that, so 240 in pounds. So when you, when you're agile, 240 pounds, that makes it very hard to control you.

• 1:46:58Lex Fridman?

  What about making the case for some others? What about the little guys? What about Marcelo? If you were to make the case for him being the strongest, what makes Marcelo good?

• 1:47:06Speaker 01

  Marcelo Garcia is extremely technical. I mean, I think he's, he's one of my favorite jiu-jitsu fighters, because in a technical way, I think he's probably one of the best.

• 1:47:19Lex Fridman?

  Because raw technique and a bunch of different positions for submissions.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  He's not very powerful, you know, physically he's not very strong. But he can make himself very strong and his technique is very, very high level.

• 1:47:33Lex Fridman?

  Have you ever trained with him?

• 1:47:35Speaker 01

  No, I fought him twice.

• 1:47:36Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  But he's much smaller than me.

• 1:47:40Lex Fridman?

  What happened in those matches?

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  The first fight, I tapped him, I think, five minutes.

• 1:47:45Lex Fridman?

  In which submission?

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  Choke from the back. Collar choke from the back. And the second time I beat him by points, but a very large. I think 12, 2.

• 1:47:57Lex Fridman?

  Actually, just to continue.

• 1:48:02Lex Fridman?

  I wonder if John Donahue would agree with you about mountain back. I can't wait to, this is a bear versus lion conversation. But I'm looking, there's statistics about.

• 1:48:13Lex Fridman?

  I'm not letting this go. There's statistics about. Oh, look at that, Hodger. What do you know, looking at Hodger Gracie's statistics for most successful submissions? Choke from the back is the most. So how do you explain that, Mr. Scientist?

• 1:48:31Speaker 01

  Because people panic when I'm out. They turn the back. I choked him out.

• 1:48:35Lex Fridman?

  That's one explanation. But for people, it is interesting that, of course, this doesn't capture, but this captures a lot of your major matches. And we should say that you've submitted most of your opponents. So you rarely win on points, usually wins submissions. Choke from back is most of them, then cross choke from mount. Arm bar is a lot too. So 18 from choke from back, 12 cross choke, 10 arm bar. Five RNC, rear naked is for no gi. Okay.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  So Ezekiel is very powerful. I choke, I use, is a strong weapon.

• 1:49:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, also from mount.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  Also from mount.

• 1:49:14Lex Fridman?

  Oh, that's when you can't get the one hand in.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  No, because the Ezekiel, most times I use against people is that. Is the attack that as soon as I get to them out, when they're trying to escape the open up. And I get them. It has to be at that initial timing.

• 1:49:32Lex Fridman?

  So it's not a thing you use to like bother them in order to.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  Either I get it right, right away, or I don't bother trying much. Because you need to keep one hand behind the head. And that you're naturally on that position as soon as you mount, most of the times. And the moment that you mount someone, no one accepts that they're going to mount it, they're going to explode to get out. So holding the head, it gives you a better way, way to dominate them initially. You know, to deal with that explosiveness on the beginning. And then, but then you have to let go to try it. You're very limited holding the head.

• 1:50:11Lex Fridman?

  In terms of goats, Shanjie, I feel like he doesn't get enough credit that he deserves. He had an extremely dominant performance in competition. What about Salo and Shanjie Higero? What are your thoughts about what makes them so good? He had a bunch of tough matches with Shanjie.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:29Lex Fridman?

  And Salo.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  Eight times.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, for eight times, Shanda. I fought Salo once.

• 1:50:38Lex Fridman?

  What?

• 1:50:40Lex Fridman?

  I think I'm bringing up a sore point.

• 1:50:44Lex Fridman?

  Oh, did Shanjie tap when you, or did the time run out? And that was the last time you guys faced each other?

• 1:50:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, 2008.

• 1:50:53Lex Fridman?

  That was incredible to watch also.

• 1:50:58Lex Fridman?

  I think you pulled guard with one minute left, working towards attacking. I mean, it's probably very tough to get anything. And for people who don't know, time ran out. You had something that looked like an arm block. And Shanjie looked like he may be tapping, but it looked like he might be just celebrating, which is most likely.

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It was, I'm not sure because I think his arm was just, just straight his arm time finish.

• 1:51:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  So I'm not sure if he was tapping to, you know, to let go of time, time, time is up. Or because of the outside, most likely the time was up.

• 1:51:41Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, and also, there's a thing where you start, you realize there's only three, two seconds left, you start to kind of start celebrating. You realize that Haji is not going to be able to finish this arm bar in the time left, so you start celebrating.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  No, I think it's up to say the time is up.

• 1:51:57Lex Fridman?

  The time is up. Anyway, what do you think, like, the longevity especially is impressive with Shangji? How long?

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  I think he doesn't get credit as much as he deserves because he pushed his career very far. And the last few years, he was on his best.

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  So if you would have stopped before, you know, people would remember him on his highest. But he kind of pushed more than his peak, let's say.

• 1:52:34Lex Fridman?

  How hard is it for you to walk away? We'll talk about the journey into MMA as well. But you basically, especially with the second match against Bucheschi, basically walked away on top.

• 1:52:48Lex Fridman?

  Beating arguably the greatest competitor of all time and just walking away.

• 1:52:55Speaker 01

  It wasn't that hard, to be honest, because that was something that I was considering for a while. Because the last few years of my career, let's say,

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  it was fighting MMA at the same time as fighting Jiu Jitsu, and it's very challenging to do both. Like, I don't, there's not another person who ever did that. Because the training is a confliction with the way you train. Everybody who start doing MMA, start focusing MMA, their Jiu Jitsu gets worse because they stop training with the gi. Everybody, no exception.

• 1:53:32Lex Fridman?

  Was your jiu-jitsu also getting worse?

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  No, because I made sure I kept training with the gi and I kept fighting at least the world championship once a year. That was my goal. I'm like, I'm gonna go for MMA. But I love jiu-jitsu and I still wanna fight the highest level. So I kept fighting once a year for a few years. It was a challenge, especially because the two or three times when I competed at the Worlds, it was right after MMA fight I had. And no gi, you don't have the grips. So my grips, it made a big difference on my grip. So I was weaker grip wise. So I felt that. So I knew it was like it's unnecessary risk.

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  Because if I cannot be 100%, so why am I doing this? But I'm stubborn. I love jiu-jitsu. That's like, I love fighting jiu-jitsu. I never loved MMA. I've liked it, but I think if all grace, I wouldn't have done it.

• 1:54:36Lex Fridman?

  So the thing you felt the most is the grips?

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:42Lex Fridman?

  Because you win a gi world championship without gripping?

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:54:48Lex Fridman?

  Like just pretending it's no gi match. They get to grip you, but you don't.

• 1:54:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:54:53Lex Fridman?

  So grips are essential.

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  Of course. I mean, how can you choke someone? Like if your grips are weak, your forearms will fatigue. And then you will have no power and then you cannot do anything.

• 1:55:05Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. You could still arm lock. So I meant more not for the submission, but for the control of the game of it.

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  But you need to grip to get there.

• 1:55:16Lex Fridman?

  To get there.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  And if your grips are weak.

• 1:55:19Lex Fridman?

  But you also have grips in no gi. Can you use those grips?

• 1:55:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:55:23Lex Fridman?

  This is a thought experiment. So like, I'm trying to understand how essential.

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  Get a no gi guy, go fight with the gi, they panic.

• 1:55:31Lex Fridman?

  They panic?

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:55:32Lex Fridman?

  Everyone panics. A bear panics when they're in the water with a shark. But that doesn't mean the bear can still win when it stops panicking and relaxes.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  It's not possible.

• 1:55:41Lex Fridman?

  That's another discussion. Can a bear beat a shark in the water?

• 1:55:47Lex Fridman?

  Actually, I need to, maybe a polar bear, because they're pretty good at swimming. Okay.

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  I say not possible for the no gi guy to win.

• 1:55:54Lex Fridman?

  But the bear is a further discussion. What was to you the biggest difference between mixed martial arts and Jiu Jitsu? What are some interesting differences, some interesting insights, even just about the grappling within both sports?

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  So the biggest difference for me between MMA and Jiu Jitsu is first is the speed. Like Jiu Jitsu, you know, like a 10 minute match, I can take my time. There's no dangers there that forces me to move fast. MMA, you have to be 100% sharp and fast from first second of the fight. Because punches are coming, you can get knocked out anytime. One mistake, you're out. Jiu Jitsu don't have that. Like it's, I don't have to worry about quick submission because it's all about the way my body is positioned. You know, my grips is easy to avoid, it's easy to see it coming.

• 1:56:51Speaker 01

  Like it's like a quick submission, a surprise, it only works if you make a mistake. If you're not correct positioning, otherwise it's impossible. It's extremely difficult. MMA is not, I mean, one split second mistake, and when the person comes, you have to respond. You have to to match his pace. I mean, you can't slow down, but it's like you're forced to respond to so much faster. It's a lot more physical, a lot more. And you need to be physically much better conditioned, faster. It's explosiveness, it's much harder.

• 1:57:32Lex Fridman?

  Is it possible in MMA to calm things down?

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  If they change the rules, yeah. Five minute rules, no.

• 1:57:41Lex Fridman?

  Ah, I see. So like, I just meant actually technically speaking, is there ways to to take an opponent that's being exceptionally aggressive?

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  You can clinch, but then he takes you down, he keeps moving. Something is hard to control that pace.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  You can, you don't, if you play defense, you you save more energy than if you try to be the aggressor and respond.

• 1:58:07Lex Fridman?

  And even getting to the clinch is very difficult.

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have no way to hold yourself there. So that was the biggest challenge for me in MMA is is the speed, because I'm a very slow start fighter. If you look at my matches, I start very slow, because if I go hard, you know, I fatigue faster. So for me, that was the hardest part of is to start fast.

• 1:58:31Lex Fridman?

  What about on the ground? Is there something different, more challenging on the ground?

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  Being in the bottom, yes, there's punches, punches.

• 1:58:39Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, how fundamentally different is jiu-jitsu with punches on the ground?

• 1:58:42Speaker 01

  Changes everything, everything.

• 1:58:45Lex Fridman?

  Which which parts?

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  The the distance that you allow your opponent to be on you, the techniques that you choose to apply. You know, you you you have to.

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  But your body has to be aware of the punches and, you know, you you are a lot more limited on your attacks.

• 1:59:02Lex Fridman?

  Like, so you're you're known for your close guards. How does your close guard have to adjust? How how does the positioning of your hands have to adjust when you're on the bottom of close guard?

• 1:59:10Speaker 01

  So in the guard, especially in the close guard, you you have to either keep the person very close to you or you have to kick him away. That's in the guard is either I'm hugging you or get away from me.

• 1:59:23Lex Fridman?

  And in jiu-jitsu, you're allowed to have a middle?

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, in jiu-jitsu, there's a lot of, you can allow the person to be.

• 1:59:29Lex Fridman?

  What about getting a arm lock or a triangle submissions from the from the guard? Is is that fundamentally different? Because you don't have the middle game?

• 1:59:41Speaker 01

  It's much harder.

• 1:59:44Speaker 01

  There's barely no open guard in MMA, very little. Because the open guard, there's a distance between you and him.

• 1:59:52Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  There's a distance, you how you you cannot control. It's much harder to control that punch coming. And I have to position myself away to block that. And it limited my attacks, my options of attacks.

• 2:00:05Lex Fridman?

  Is there a reason? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you do open guard much in jiu-jitsu and no gi. Is there a reason for that?

• 2:00:15Speaker 01

  It's harder with explosive, explosive person. Because it's not when they're moving fast, then you have to try to slow them down.

• 2:00:25Lex Fridman?

  So you like guards that allow you to control the person? And closed guard is the ultimate control.

• 2:00:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's not ultimate control, but closed guard puts in a position that I'm attacking and you're defending. You cannot attack me from my closed guard.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  We can argue that there's might be one or two attacks, but it's like very, very, very limited and depends who you're fighting against.

• 2:00:51Lex Fridman?

  I hate the closed guard, like being on top while against a good closed guard is very.

• 2:00:56Speaker 01

  No one likes, it's terrible.

• 2:00:57Lex Fridman?

  It's horrible.

• 2:00:58Speaker 01

  It's one sided.

• 2:00:59Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  So even the guard is one sided, the person in the battle has the advantage. I can be completely relaxed in my closed guard and I cannot be completely relaxed.

• 2:01:08Lex Fridman?

  You know what the most annoying thing is? Is somebody who is both good and extremely confident with a closed guard.

• 2:01:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:14Lex Fridman?

  Cause they have that smug energy about them. They know how much unpleasant, how much work it takes to pass this. Anyway, especially people with longer legs. Is there something you wish you did differently in how you started training in MMA in that trajectory? In figuring out how to train, how to get good? Like, what have you learned about getting good at MMA? From having done it? If you were to start now, for example?

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  I think I would have to dedicate it more. I didn't dedicate enough.

• 2:01:49Lex Fridman?

  Both like literally time, number of training sessions.

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  Training, yeah.

• 2:01:52Lex Fridman?

  But also mental.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  Training wise, physical, yeah, I think a lot more the physical part of it.

• 2:01:57Lex Fridman?

  The strikes?

• 2:01:58Speaker 01

  The strike from the beginning. It's because, I mean, I love jujitsu. Like it's, I truly love the, all the aspects of it. Fighting, training, you know, the practice, the competition. I don't have that for MMA. So it's hard to, to give your heart to it, something that you don't have the passion to it. Like jujitsu, you know, I gave my heart to it. Like I did everything that I had to. MMA, I never, I didn't do that. So that's why it was.

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  I won't, I won't say it was wrong for me to, to have, to, to, to do it because I don't regret doing. I always, you know, looking back as a kid, when I decided to, you know, to be, to take jiu jitsu for life. I, I, I already knew that some point I would have to do MMA. There's almost like that's the path of a gracie. You know, you, when you're ready, you go do MMA.

• 2:02:57Lex Fridman?

  So there was a, like a duty versus a love.

• 2:03:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was, that was not a choice. That was like, I have to. It's just the, the life I took, he will lead that way.

• 2:03:09Lex Fridman?

  Are you proud of that, that, you know, go against the natural love and towards more duty?

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  I think I don't regret it because if I hadn't done it, I would feel there was something missing.

• 2:03:24Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  So I don't regret doing, I would regret not doing.

• 2:03:31Lex Fridman?

  The, the tricky thing is the choice to go to MMA could have compromised your ability to win against Burchesha. And it, and it didn't. And it's, um, it's a fascinating case study. It still doesn't make sense to me that after all those years, you're able to come back and go against the best person in the world and beat him.

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I had to because the first fight we had, I had something stuck in my throat for a long time.

• 2:04:02Lex Fridman?

  I had, you think, so you think about that?

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. I'm like, well, as soon as that first fight finished, I had that, that got stuck in my throat that I already, at that point, I knew. I'm gonna have to fight him again. I knew. I always knew.

• 2:04:20Speaker 01

  Cause there's no choice. I have to.

• 2:04:21Lex Fridman?

  Oh man. All right. Well, in terms of no gi, who do you think is the best no gi competitor of all time?

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  There's no question, you know, it's Gordon, it's. I mean, it's, I don't think it's right to say the best competitor of all time because he's still very young. I think that's something that you can't be argue in the end of when the person.

• 2:04:44Lex Fridman?

  You don't want him to get lazy, you know what I'm saying?

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  No, no, I mean, but you cannot praise someone in the middle of his career, you know? So you cannot call him the best ever. He's twenty six or twenty seven. So it's, I mean, he's, he's great, he's very good. He's ahead of all of other competitors, I think. And, I mean, he's having an amazing career, you know, he's doing amazingly well. So, I mean, when he's, when he finished, when he finally retired, then you can argue like.

• 2:05:16Lex Fridman?

  You know what, there's wisdom in that. It matters how you finish, right?

• 2:05:20Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:05:21Lex Fridman?

  It's very interesting.

• 2:05:24Speaker 01

  I think the doggy is relative new. That Nogi scene, there was not, there wasn't a scene before. I think he started now on his generation, you know, his time. Because before, like, when I was competing, Nogi was just ADCC, nothing else. Every two years, and first was only in the Emirates, you know, you had to go there to compete. So there was not even a scene, there was like this one tournament that gives a lot of money to, you know, to competitors, to fighters, and brings fighters from other modalities, you know,

• 2:06:03Speaker 01

  Mark, Van Arsdale, you know, some wrestlers, Greco Roman, you know, that can compete against each other.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  And they, you know, they create that set of rules, try not to favor anyone. So that was it. So you cannot be called the greatest doggy of all time if you only have one tournament. Every two years, only in Emory's they have to be invited to. But I think now, you know, it grew a lot. Now we have so many different tournaments. Now we have a scene, you have people that only train no gi, they're fully dedicated to no gi. Then you have supervised different tournaments. So now it's now, you know, now it's professionally, you can do just no gi now, which before was unheard of it. Because you have one or two tournaments.

• 2:06:52Speaker 01

  If you cannot be called a no gi fighter, fighting once every two years, twice every two years.

• 2:07:00Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, now there's entire

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:01Lex Fridman?

  Systems that are optimized for no gi that could be fundamentally different. Like, what do you think about the body lock? Like this passing with the body lock, I don't know if you get an understanding of it.

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:13Lex Fridman?

  That.

• 2:07:14Speaker 01

  I think it's okay.

• 2:07:17Lex Fridman?

  It's a, it's a popular way to, what is it? To maybe to apply.

• 2:07:25Speaker 01

  To stay tight.

• 2:07:26Lex Fridman?

  To stay tight.

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  Very close to your opponent, so he can't push great distance, he can't push away.

• 2:07:32Lex Fridman?

  But somehow it shuts down the hips as well.

• 2:07:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:07:37Lex Fridman?

  Makes it more difficult to.

• 2:07:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Kind of trap your legs, your back is stuck on against the floor.

• 2:07:44Lex Fridman?

  Are you like scientifically curious about these new developments? Do you think, do you have answers in your head to them?

• 2:07:54Speaker 01

  Most.

• 2:07:57Lex Fridman?

  So body lock is one interesting one, obviously foot locks is another. And that don't mean just the foot locks, but the whole like control aspect of foot locks.

• 2:08:06Lex Fridman?

  That's interesting and there's other, there's other interesting stuff. John is really into

• 2:08:13Lex Fridman?

  the wrestling aspect, but not wrestling, wrestling, but wrestling everywhere. Jiu Jitsu at all levels of the plane.

• 2:08:22Lex Fridman?

  That's, that's very interesting because, you know, obviously Jiu Jitsu has not really been, you know, unlike like freestyle wrestling and so on, has not been this like a systematic, scientific, rigorous exploration of wrestling. It's like you're on your feet and you're on the ground, not, not into mix. There's a lot of interest.

• 2:08:40Speaker 01

  John is academic, he tried to, you know, numbers, mathematics, everything.

• 2:08:46Lex Fridman?

  But you kind of are too.

• 2:08:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I mean, I.

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  I am, because you have to understand what you're doing, you know, there's a, everything there's a step by step, like logistic, like details, every single move, there's a reason for it, you know, there's things around that happens, it's, the more you know, the better you are, right, the more knowledgeable, compared or whatever. So I think with the foot locks, with the nogi, like if you look back, you know, if you think of, it used to be seen as a really bad thing to attack the foot, it wasn't seen as a good options of attack, mainly.

• 2:09:30Lex Fridman?

  What is that, respectable gentleman, don't attack the leg or what?

• 2:09:34Speaker 01

  No, because if you look back, you know, the tournaments, the when they were created, all the rules and everything else was to simulate a real fight with no punches, when I have nogi, I mean, if you ask, what is jujitsu, like, what are you trying, what's the main goal of jujitsu? To dominate your opponent, what's the main goal of fighting? If we're fighting, it's, of course, submission is the ultimate goal, but the, you know, before that, the main goal is to dominate you, like, we're fighting, I have to dominate you, and then the submission comes. And foot locks, it's, I don't require any domination on you, I don't, I don't need

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  to be in a dominant position to attack your foot, and if I attack your foot, you're still free to knock me out. If your body goes down to my foot, I can still come close to you or stand up and I'll punch you. So it's not a good position to be in a real fight, yeah, to attacking the foot, I mean, how many times you've seen that going bad, that went bad in a, in MMA fight, I mean, of course, you had, you know, some sort of success with the hook, it's no questions, but how many times went wrong? People were knocked out attacking the foot, so you can't say it's the best position to be, it's, it's okay to go, but it's a very high risky position to go, so that's why it's not in a real situation, it's not seen as a good thing.

• 2:11:00Speaker 01

  So when you translate that to jiu jitsu, when attacking the foot, it's not seen as a good thing because when you reflect that to a real situation, it's not gonna go down well. So he was always seen as a, as a easy way out, you know, easy cut. You're trying, you're trying to the easy path. You can't pass my guard, you can't dominate me. Then you're trying to attack my foot. That's why it was always seen as a, you know, as not as a best, a great submission, a way to win.

• 2:11:26Lex Fridman?

  But the sad side effect of that is it was completely underdeveloped because of that.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  Exactly, of course. So people never really developed that. But now, the tournaments, the fighting, it got completely, not completely, but it got so, it's not longer seen as, you know, as a simulation of the real thing. Now it's a, now it's a sport. It's only seen as a sport. So now, it doesn't matter if you attack my foot, you cannot punch me. So why is it bad now to attack the foot? It's just not seen as a bad thing anymore. And it, now it got really developed.

• 2:12:04Lex Fridman?

  I don't know, that's another bear versus shark question, but you know, there is, in a street self-defense situation, it's possible to imagine where foot locks would be effective for highly. But I guess if you invest 10,000 hours, it's better to invest it in chokes.

• 2:12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, to dominate. If I'm, you know, if we're fighting, it's way better for me to be on your side, control on the mount, where I can pin you, be completely safe, than to stay inside your legs, trying to attack your foot.

• 2:12:38Lex Fridman?

  People would argue that there's a lot of very dominant, controlling positions in the whole foot lock game, right?

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  It is, but it can go bad very quickly.

• 2:12:46Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:48Speaker 01

  No, it, I mean, there's, there's some great ways to control someone that he cannot escape. But it can go bad very quickly. That's the thing.

• 2:12:58Lex Fridman?

  Well, even back control can go bad very quickly on the street. So mount, I don't know, is mount a really good position?

• 2:13:05Speaker 01

  But then there's no good position then.

• 2:13:07Lex Fridman?

  There's no.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  Every, every position, there's a risk. Okay. Attacking the foot is a way higher risk than side control, mount, back. That's what I'm saying, the back is not the best way to pin someone unless you underneath me. Because I, if you try to rotate, I can sacrifice the back and just allow you pin the mount.

• 2:13:33Lex Fridman?

  Okay, there you go. Would you prefer mount or back mount where they're flattened? Like a.

• 2:13:40Speaker 01

  Still mount.

• 2:13:42Lex Fridman?

  Thought I'd get you. So yeah, going back to Gordon, what do you think makes that guy so good? We were just ADCC, got to see him historically dominant performance.

• 2:13:56Speaker 01

  First, his dedication, the way he trains and how much he trains. And of course, you have to add his mind, his belief to really try to be good, the best. So, you know, I don't know what his goals are, but I know he's tried to be better than his opponents. So his belief are very strong. His dedication, he probably trains more than everybody else. I mean, I haven't seen firsthand, but from what I hear interviews with him and everybody else training, you know, the way everybody trains.

• 2:14:31Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  You know, trying to, for my little knowledge I have, I'll bet he trains more than everybody else. And most important, how he trains. And when I, I kind of already knew, but when I heard John podcast with you the other day, John was explaining the preparation, the training for the ADCC and that kind of gave me a very strong idea how they've been training all these years. So, you know, when we said it's, you have to work on your weakness, so you have no weakness. He trains a lot on his weakness, which not everyone does that. You know, if you look, all the, I'm not gonna name, but you know, all the main schools

• 2:15:16Speaker 01

  when, like very strong competitors, great competitors, super tough people, but super tough. Not great because they train, they spar very hard. That makes them tough. If you wanna be good, you have to work on your weakness. Because when you spar, like we're saying, how many times you're gonna practice escaping a bad position, like a submission hold or a pinning position, side control, mount. It's very little the amount of time you get to spend on those positions if you don't start there.

• 2:15:53Speaker 01

  So that, he's very smart the way he trains.

• 2:15:56Lex Fridman?

  And part of that is also cerebral. It's not just putting yourself in those positions, but talking through different ideas. Like they, they talk, they like experiment. It's very like, at, at, at first glance, it's like philosophical almost. You're trying to create systems constantly. You're trying to understand how this fits into this big picture.

• 2:16:18Speaker 01

  And, and then it goes back to what is jiu-jitsu, what is fighting? He's fighting for dominance. You know, he's fighting for the ultimate dominance positions, which is back and mount. There's no others. And from that you finish. So if you look back at his, you know, over the years, you know, of his past fights, before he used to mainly focus in legs. And over the past few years, now he's mainly focusing in finishing from the mountain back. But that's when he became really good.

• 2:16:51Lex Fridman?

  Uh, so part of that is, Mr. John Donahue, what do you think? You've, you've, you've known John for a long time. What makes that guy interesting, uh, special and, and good? What have you learned about jiu-jitsu and life from John Donahue?

• 2:17:07Speaker 01

  He's super smart. I mean eccentric. And he lives through jiu-jitsu. He's 24/7 thinking better ways to teach, how to make his competitors better. And that as a coach, when you have that dedication as a coach, that it makes the most difference of your athletes. Like, which other big team you have that coach with that motivation? All the other schools, it's either someone that competes, that pushed the training, like Andragovol. It's, you know, he's one of the competitors. So he brings the hype in everyone else. But he doesn't have the time, he doesn't spend the time working individually. I mean, I'm sure he does, but he's limited because he's also a competitor.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  And you know, looking most of the other big schools like you don't have that nowadays. All the leaders, the main coaches for the other big schools, they have other things, other things in their lives. They don't fully dedicate it to the athletes. John does, you know, look at the interview. He spends hours and hours a day studying how can await a system, you know, to make his athletes better. Look at the results.

• 2:18:22Lex Fridman?

  I enjoy, I was just sending back and forth. You can actually just get him, you can troll him essentially by sending interesting videos and you could just see his mind.

• 2:18:32Lex Fridman?

  He's gonna do research on that. Cause I kept sending him videos of bears, cause he claimed that a lion would beat a bear. Because, I'd love to get your take on this, okay? So the bear is much bigger, much stronger. But his take is that the bears don't have experience of fighting to the death. That's not part of the culture, they're more scared. In fact, he keeps sending me footage of like, even like a small mountain lion scaring a bear away. Because they're, they don't want to fight.

• 2:19:07Lex Fridman?

  So his idea is that it really matters your life experience, how much you fight. It's not necessarily the skill, like the dimensions, the characteristics you have. But then I send him, I'll show you.

• 2:19:23Lex Fridman?

  People should Google this, it's bears fighting of any kind. It's, it's pretty much the most epic thing ever. Here, I'll show you. Like, look at these guys, the cardio though is interesting.

• 2:19:38Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, I was gonna mention that, cause I was, you know, flipping to internet. I came, I came around that video.

• 2:19:46Lex Fridman?

  Look how big these guys are.

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  No, they huge, but see, they don't bite each other.

• 2:19:51Lex Fridman?

  You think it's just play?

• 2:19:52Speaker 01

  They trying to, no, intimidating, because they don't wanna get hurt. So they try to size each other up, you know, they've, they, you'll see the whole fighting is sizing each other up. There's a lot of pushing and the fur is so thick, so the claw doesn't really damage much.

• 2:20:09Lex Fridman?

  They're using the tree, so maybe they, they, yeah, they're.

• 2:20:12Speaker 01

  I mean, they, they, there is bites, but see, there's very little. So the whole time they trying to intimidate the other one like winning the fight by their size.

• 2:20:27Lex Fridman?

  And mostly about like the way drunk college kids fight, which is like some kind of display of dominance versus actual.

• 2:20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're not fighting to kill. And bear or tiger, you know, they they fight to finish unless the other one runs away like one would die.

• 2:20:47Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, lines and text. Yeah, I uh, look at cardio. Look how bad their cardio is. I wonder how.

• 2:20:55Lex Fridman?

  Uh, my favorite part is when one of them just like stands behind a tree. It says, all right.

• 2:21:00Speaker 01

  He's holding.

• 2:21:05Lex Fridman?

  He's getting the breath.

• 2:21:06Speaker 01

  My breath.

• 2:21:07Lex Fridman?

  He sits down. It's like, all right, you can't. It's over. It's like, uh, it's the equivalent in the in the in the forest, like tapping out. All right, all right. You got me.

• 2:21:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:20Lex Fridman?

  Look, they're both like, uh, just shot.

• 2:21:27Lex Fridman?

  And but see, the thing is that I was trying to make an argument for is that we we get this rare footage. It's not rare. I mean, there's like hundreds of videos, but it's not millions of videos because there's a huge number of bears. And I was trying to say that there's some badass bear we don't know about. Because he just goes in there and just does work.

• 2:21:47Lex Fridman?

  And we just don't know about it because he's like ever. See, the thing is, if you kill a lot of other animals, you probably have a territory that nobody's going to mess with you. So it's very hard to catch the uh, the um, like the Hadja Gracie of bears, you know? He's just going to be sitting there doing nothing. So I don't know. I don't know. I feel like, of course, when you corner him, John will say that if you put a bear and a lion in a cage, the bear will win if it's like, if it's the if if they're forced to be to the death, but I don't know. Oh, let me ask you another ridiculous thing before I ask you serious questions. So Joe Rogan thinks that a tie.

• 2:22:31Lex Fridman?

  Is an effective way to attack somebody. I don't know if I can't believe I haven't in the time in Vegas, I didn't talk to you about this. I think it's not. Have you ever explored this as the best choker in the world? Have you ever explored the use? Cause like jujitsu has the jacket, but the tie to me is a pretty shitty way to choke somebody. Like intuitively thinks like it's a good way, but it can slide around. It's it feels like if it feels like there's no, there's no way to really pin.

• 2:23:04Speaker 01

  You would need to.

• 2:23:06Lex Fridman?

  Right. So you use it the way you use a belt.

• 2:23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:08Lex Fridman?

  Essentially. Yeah. But then.

• 2:23:10Speaker 01

  I would, I would guess so.

• 2:23:11Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. See, I don't, I don't think it's, and I think if it gives you, it actually has the reverse effect, which it gives you the, the false sense of confidence that you can use it. And instead it'll just distract you.

• 2:23:25Speaker 01

  So he think is a stronger weight than the collar? Or just a strong way?

• 2:23:29Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:29Speaker 01

  Stronger than the collar?

• 2:23:31Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:31Speaker 01

  I don't see how. Maybe just like.

• 2:23:34Lex Fridman?

  Well, in a street fight scenario, right? Like.

• 2:23:37Speaker 01

  But by the time you grab the tie, the guy goes punch your nose.

• 2:23:40Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. What, what, what George St Pierre thinks is the best use of the ties to actually like, um, what do you call that? So basically to off balance them. Which is an interesting point to like.

• 2:23:53Speaker 01

  I mean, that can be used to, yeah.

• 2:23:55Lex Fridman?

  Well, you could use the jacket for this kind of thing. Yeah, I don't know. I haven't really fully tested it. It's a.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  I'll say jacket or tie for that perspective of unbalancing, of balancing the person. It can be, yeah. Because you, you know, you have control of the person's neck. The collar, you know, the jacket moves. So for the purpose of off balancing the person, I would agree with George.

• 2:24:17Lex Fridman?

  See, the thing is, that's the thing about martial arts is you can say all kinds of bullshit. But until you really test it in, um, over a period of years, the competition, you won't really know. I think like, that's where my gut says, um, just how easily the tie moves.

• 2:24:37Lex Fridman?

  My gut says the collar. There is something really powerful about the jacket. There's like the way it sits. I mean, the fact that the arms trap it from rotating.

• 2:24:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:47Lex Fridman?

  Like, it's a weird piece of clothing. It's a really dangerous piece of clothing that we put on ourselves.

• 2:24:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:53Lex Fridman?

  Like, and it's kind of cool that we've developed this whole martial arts system that allows you to use that to to do a lot of damage. It's very interesting.

• 2:25:01Speaker 01

  So when we're saying something that you develop over the years or practice over and over again, going back to the efficiency of the mount or back. By experience of attacking people, they, people always had a much higher chance of escaping from the back than from my mount. So it's, I feel if, if I mount and you get both my hands on your neck, you cannot escape. If my hands are deep, it's over. Like that, I don't remember anyone escaping. But I do remember if my hands are deep on your collar or even real naked choke is still a hassle, like it's not clean.

• 2:25:41Lex Fridman?

  You have some data on this. Is there some aspect to you, to how your body is, the characteristics of your body, then that fits a particular set of techniques? So if we just look at Jiu Jitsu broadly, do you see most techniques being able to work for most people? Like, what you're saying about mount versus back control, is this, is it possible for a different body type, the mount is not as effective?

• 2:26:06Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, of course. I'll say very big people, they should mount.

• 2:26:12Lex Fridman?

  You don't think of yourself as big?

• 2:26:14Speaker 01

  Not big, I mean fat.

• 2:26:16Lex Fridman?

  Oh.

• 2:26:17Speaker 01

  They should stay off the mount.

• 2:26:19Lex Fridman?

  Why is that? That's a counter.

• 2:26:20Speaker 01

  Because of mobility. It's like, it's, I think that, you know, you don't see any, you know, like there was few weights, like a hundred and sixty kilo, like, you know, two in pounds. I don't know, two hundred and seventy pounds of a lot of fat. It's, you, you need a bit of mobility and that would, it would play against you, even, even, even back.

• 2:26:42Lex Fridman?

  A great mount requires mobility.

• 2:26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:45Lex Fridman?

  Okay. So even though it doesn't look like you're moving very much when you're doing mount, that requires mobility?

• 2:26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:51Lex Fridman?

  Cause you have to reposition and weight redistribution.

• 2:26:53Speaker 01

  Constantly adjusting your, your body.

• 2:26:55Lex Fridman?

  All right. The legend goes, you got very good by training mostly with lower ranks. Uh, what was your training like in that environment?

• 2:27:04Speaker 01

  So when I first moved to London, I was twenty years old. I opened my school there.

• 2:27:12Speaker 01

  And I had nobody to train with. I had one guy that was teaching with me a black belt, middleweight. He was good.

• 2:27:24Speaker 01

  And that's it. Brodeur was, he moved to the same, he moved to England the same time as I did. But he was in Birmingham. So we did got together, you know, maybe twice a week, closer, you know, when we were preparing for something. If not, then not very often, as often as we could, but like I say, not that often. And I had just color belt students. There was no one high level. There was no one world champion in any belt to train. Then you need to create a scenario that simulates, that can simulate, you know, like a realistic fighting. So I think on that aspect, you know, when people said, you know, people ask,

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  why do I have such a basic game? I think that also influenced me sharpen up all my skills when I moved there because, you know, when I'm, when, if you practice with people, you know, lower level than you, you cannot, there's nothing to, to learn from them. Or, you know, you can learn things and practice with them, but I would say, very complex scenes on them, it is not the best. So it's, I sharpen up all my skills. So, you know, that when I really improved everything that I already knew to a higher level.

• 2:28:43Lex Fridman?

  But how can you sharpen something if the resistance is much lower level than?

• 2:28:47Speaker 01

  A purple belt can make it very hard for you to skip side control. Doesn't have to be a world champion or black belt. It's, you know, if it's, one is holding you, it can be very hard.

• 2:28:57Lex Fridman?

  What about on the attack? How do you, how do you become literally by far the best person at the cross choke from mouth by training with purple belts?

• 2:29:07Speaker 01

  It's sometimes football belts defend way better than black belts.

• 2:29:11Lex Fridman?

  Okay. See, a lot of people listening to that would be like, that makes no sense. How does that make any sense?

• 2:29:17Speaker 01

  Because like a lot of the black belts, even world champions, they get to the black belt. They're really good in what they do. Let's say in the guard, you know, on top or in the bottom position. But their defense are not like very, very few people, high level, have a very good defense. Because they don't practice.

• 2:29:36Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:36Speaker 01

  Then that goes back to how you train. You know, you can be very tough, very tough will make you terrible defense. Because you're not going to practice your weakness. So your weakness is still going to be terrible. You can have the best guard in the world, impossible to pass. The people pass your guard, you do nothing. Like it's your guard is high, the highest level. But your side control defense are not, your mount defense are not. So some purple belts, they practice this, you know, the mount way more than that black belt did. So naturally their defense is better.

• 2:30:12Lex Fridman?

  So they they get to experience the defensive position much, much, much more. And especially training with you, they get really good at defending.

• 2:30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:20Lex Fridman?

  And then.

• 2:30:20Speaker 01

  Over and over again, you attack them with the same thing over and over again. And they know what's coming, they will block, they will develop a defense over that.

• 2:30:27Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:28Speaker 01

  Way better than most other high level black belts.

• 2:30:32Lex Fridman?

  So both put yourself into really bad positions with low ranks. And just keep attacking them the same way over and over and over.

• 2:30:40Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. And with that, you're able to be at the top of the world at the world championships.

• 2:30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:48Lex Fridman?

  I mean, can you give some, like, what was the preparation like to a world championship with lower ranks? I mean.

• 2:30:55Speaker 01

  I did a lot of boxing, a lot of conditioning. No, but.

• 2:30:59Lex Fridman?

  Conditioning is a big part of it.

• 2:31:00Speaker 01

  But the one thing that helped me extremely, living in England, in London, was training Judo. Had a Buru Kua in London. That helped me massively because it it it gave me the motivation to learn something new. Because you know, by then at the Buru Quai, you know, the stand up was, I'm sure today it is too. But by then was even higher than it is today. Like there was some very high level judo guys training there. And I mean, the first time I went there, my stand up was terrible compared to theirs. I mean, it was it was was bad, but compared to them was terrible. So I was getting thrown like a child.

• 2:31:42Speaker 01

  And that motivate me to keep to keep coming back and and and get better. So that made my jiu jitsu much stronger. I became, my base got better, my top game improved, my pressure game improved.

• 2:31:57Lex Fridman?

  Did uh, does Neil Adams train?

• 2:31:59Speaker 01

  Uh, Ray Stevens.

• 2:32:00Lex Fridman?

  Ray Stevens.

• 2:32:01Speaker 01

  When he, I've never met Neil Adams.

• 2:32:03Lex Fridman?

  Have you met Neil Adams? He's the, he's the voice of judo. I don't know if you, you watch the tournaments. He's incredible.

• 2:32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, Ray Stevens is a silver medal, silver medalist in the Olympics. He won European, I mean, he won a lot.

• 2:32:15Lex Fridman?

  So you did some judo training. What's your favorite throw? Like a soto?

• 2:32:18Speaker 01

  Uchimata, I'll say, if I would pick one.

• 2:32:21Lex Fridman?

  So that made you better at jiu jitsu as well?

• 2:32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:32:24Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 2:32:25Speaker 01

  And and back then, like for the first, I'll say maybe three years, maybe four. I went to Brazil for like two months before every major tournament.

• 2:32:36Lex Fridman?

  Got it.

• 2:32:36Speaker 01

  So I say, you know, I moved away from the school and I really focused. I was really well prepared with my judo and everything else, sharpen up my skills and then went going to Brazil to train with like really high level people. So that way I would manage to compete in the highest level.

• 2:32:54Lex Fridman?

  What advice would you give to, let's start with a complete beginner?

• 2:32:59Lex Fridman?

  So, um, you know, a bunch of people come up to me, they still want to start doing jiu jitsu. What advice would you give them?

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  Try to absorb as much technique as you can and try to be as relaxed as you can. Don't, you know, don't desperately try to fight so hard.

• 2:33:21Speaker 01

  Like learn and move slow.

• 2:33:25Lex Fridman?

  Move slow and relax.

• 2:33:27Speaker 01

  That's the hardest thing to do. The hardest.

• 2:33:31Lex Fridman?

  You know, you know what I find with people, it seems like it's hard to even know that you're not relaxed. It's it's like the introspection. They don't even know what it feels like to relax.

• 2:33:43Speaker 01

  Not even know they tense.

• 2:33:45Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, right.

• 2:33:45Speaker 01

  They try to relax, you look at you say, what? What do you mean relax? I'm relaxed.

• 2:33:49Lex Fridman?

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 2:33:51Speaker 01

  The eyes are shaking.

• 2:33:53Lex Fridman?

  You feel it. And in terms of going slow, they're like, yeah, well, I'm going slow. No, you're you're not. Yeah, there's there's a there's a grace and elegance of movement that you can probably pick up from a lot of other disciplines. Like for me, I think that came from just learning piano piano at a young age. It's for um, I I think any mobility thing to learn how to move efficiently, you have to know how to relax. It's just the fact that you can like, body can be tense or it could be relaxed. Just knowing that fact.

• 2:34:25Speaker 01

  Now imagine you shoulder stands.

• 2:34:26Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:27Speaker 01

  Do they could play piano well? No, everything has to be relaxed.

• 2:34:30Lex Fridman?

  I guess some of that is mind too, but just knowing that and being self-aware and you but see like even me um, you know, approaching a thing I'm not, I don't know anything about being a beginner, you're going to tense up. No matter and like it actually takes a conscious effort to think to relax. I mean, that's.

• 2:34:50Speaker 01

  Nicely. That's why learning things as an adult is much harder than as a child. Like it's very hard. And as an adult, it's like to get to the highest level is not possible. Because you will never relax for the way you should.

• 2:35:05Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, relax in the way that you become like water, but then you solidify in the right places.

• 2:35:13Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:15Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Is there advice you can give to an adult? So like, somebody that has a job, like a hobbyist? Like, how to progress?

• 2:35:22Speaker 01

  I mean, have to train. Just need to train as much as you can. Not, you know, five, seven days a week because you're gonna get injured. I mean, two, three times a week to start is the best way to, you know, to initiate your Jiu Jitsu journey. And practice the same thing over and over again. When they don't work, it's just because you're not doing well. Not because, you know, you have to learn something else.

• 2:35:49Lex Fridman?

  Do you see some value in just picking a set of techniques that seem to draw your heart in? Like, for example, I'll give you an example, you're gonna yell at me. But I never learned the close guard well. It just never connected with me. You could say it's body mechanics, whatever, it doesn't matter. The point is, it's just like, my heart never connected with it. You know, the way I justified it to myself is I felt like when you're bad, you're using the close guard, just think you could use the half-guard to stall. So I was really drawn to the butterfly guard as a beginner because I thought that I have, or open guard in general. There's, I have no options to stall, so I'm going to learn.

• 2:36:33Lex Fridman?

  My thinking was, let me do the guard that enforces me to learn. And then I fell in love with the butterfly guard and the open guard and so on. And I never, I never really understood the close guard. And the other thinking was, do I really need to understand the close guard? Because it's always by choice that I go there. So I can avoid not really.

• 2:36:53Speaker 01

  I mean, you can avoid anything you want. I mean, you don't have to do anything.

• 2:36:59Lex Fridman?

  In this life, yes.

• 2:37:00Speaker 01

  It doesn't make you complete. That means you have a weakness.

• 2:37:03Lex Fridman?

  Do you want to be complete as a, this is the question. How valuable is it to be complete to get good?

• 2:37:12Speaker 01

  Depends how good you wanna be.

• 2:37:14Lex Fridman?

  Okay, let's go. Well, there's several questions there. Yeah, okay, like to be the best in the world, do you need to be complete?

• 2:37:21Speaker 01

  Of course. The best in the world, of course you have to be complete. Otherwise, you, somebody is gonna be better than you.

• 2:37:29Lex Fridman?

  But what about like, so to understand to defend, you have to be also good at the offense and in every single position?

• 2:37:36Speaker 01

  Otherwise, you have a weakness and someone can capitalize on that weakness.

• 2:37:42Lex Fridman?

  Okay, what about to be like a hobbyist?

• 2:37:44Speaker 01

  Then you don't have to.

• 2:37:45Lex Fridman?

  But can you, or is it still bad?

• 2:37:48Speaker 01

  I mean, it's not bad. I mean, nothing is bad. I mean, if you, as a hobbyist, you start late. I mean, it doesn't matter how far you're gonna get, as long as you enjoy it, just train as much as you can. If it's twice a week, twice a week it is. You'll be limited how good you will be training twice a week, of course. Then the guy that trains twice a day. You know, it's this, the more trained, the better you get.

• 2:38:12Lex Fridman?

  But you have to select what you train, that's what I'm asking.

• 2:38:15Speaker 01

  I don't know, yes, but like, for how long? Like, there was some point in your life that you might try something, see if you like it. You know, there's some point in your life that you might, okay, let me try close guard. You might not like it now, maybe in two, three years from now.

• 2:38:31Lex Fridman?

  Still don't like it. I kept trying it. Listen, cuz, listen, it's very difficult to get any respect in Jiu-Jitsu. It's hard to get to black belt and beyond in Jiu-Jitsu at a respectable place and not have a good close guard. Close guard is...

• 2:38:48Speaker 01

  I mean, then don't do it. It's not necessary.

• 2:38:51Lex Fridman?

  I'm being a rebel.

• 2:38:52Speaker 01

  No, it's not. It's, I'll say, because it's not, it's not a position that you under pressure, that if you don't know, you'll be in trouble. You're not gonna be in trouble not to know the close guard, you're just gonna go straight for open guard.

• 2:39:05Lex Fridman?

  I mean, the...

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  It's not a problem.

• 2:39:07Lex Fridman?

  The main limitation is if you don't do a close guard a lot, that you don't quite...

• 2:39:13Lex Fridman?

  You don't get a full, complete picture of understanding how to attack close guard when somebody puts you into a close guard, when you're on top. So it's nice to know both sides if it's just to understand.

• 2:39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you can have a pretty good understanding of how to defend from the top and not having any bottom.

• 2:39:29Lex Fridman?

  I mean, some of it is also just like the length of legs and just the geometry of your body. I'm sure Marcel Gassie has a good close guard, but.

• 2:39:38Speaker 01

  I've never seen it.

• 2:39:39Lex Fridman?

  That's exactly, that's the point I'm trying to make. In theory, in theory, you can imagine it. But for a hobbyist, I think it's interesting to think of that, like, is it possible to, is it possible to focus on a small set of techniques that help you to develop?

• 2:40:02Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:40:03Lex Fridman?

  Still into a good judo player?

• 2:40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 2:40:05Lex Fridman?

  And still enjoy and still be able to be.

• 2:40:06Speaker 01

  Most people are hobbyists in the judo world, 99%. I mean, people that compete.

• 2:40:12Lex Fridman?

  Even the people that compete.

• 2:40:14Speaker 01

  1% max. And you have high level competitors have no clue what close guard is.

• 2:40:20Lex Fridman?

  Okay, thank you for me. No, I think you would say that most people don't have a, close guard is such a, such a difficult position to understand for me.

• 2:40:31Speaker 01

  Maybe one day we'll brainwash.

• 2:40:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, good. I felt it's too easy to stall versus attack. That was my main concern is like, I want to be forced in every way to, to always be attacking, to always be moving, to always be, and it felt like if I got really good, I've seen it happen with half guard too. It's like when people get really good at half guard, it just feels stall-y. If you just look at the matches and so on, it's, you slow things down to a thing that's not. You don't get reps on learning, you don't get action in interesting ways. So that was my worry, that I'll get old and fat and just sit in close guard all day.

• 2:41:18Lex Fridman?

  Holding on to the white belts trying to kill me. Cause it's also, I mean, that's the other thing for hobbyists and for everyone is to like, when you first start, I think. You have to relax in the face of the fact that you're just getting your ass kicked nonstop.

• 2:41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:34Lex Fridman?

  That can also be really tough on the ego. I think probably the right way to see that is you're growing as a person.

• 2:41:40Speaker 01

  You see that clearly when they are like in a bad position, let's say side mount or mount. Like a beginner, he will never relax on those positions. The moment that you say go, they like trying to push you out and explode that. There's no relaxation and work on the defense. It's like, no, it's out and go until I have zero to give. Until I'm exhausted, my arms cannot move.

• 2:42:11Lex Fridman?

  It's kind of fun to watch, actually. What's the role of drilling? Do you, do you like drilling?

• 2:42:17Speaker 01

  I do not like drilling, but I'll tell you why.

• 2:42:21Speaker 01

  I think.

• 2:42:23Speaker 01

  Fighting is mechanic, right? So it's, it's, it's very important to drill a move until you learn the mechanic. Of course it's important. If someone want to teach you an arm lock, you want to practice that movement until you learn the mechanic of it. But the guy's not resisting, so it's easy to apply, right? So you apply as many times as you have to, until you know the mechanic of the moves, until you can apply the mechanics. The moment that you know how to apply, there's no more point in drilling. Now you have to practice. Now you have to practice with resistance. Of course, you're not going to practice with the guy fully resisting. The guy's better than you because he's not going to give you a chance to practice that move.

• 2:43:07Speaker 01

  But you have to practice with resistance. So where this drilling comes on that is most of people, you know, they, they flow drill and everything. I think whatever you do, you conditioning your body to do something. Is the, you know, you do, you repeat the same move over and over again. Your body is conditioning to apply that movement or the technique. Drilling is not realistic because the other person is not resisting. You know, the flow movement or whatever, a- after you go beyond, when you already know the, the, the mechanics. The drilling with no resistance is not going to teach you anything because you will never know if, how to apply the movement with resistance. So it's pointless to carry on drilling after you learn the mechanics.

• 2:43:52Lex Fridman?

  See, but you're making it sound easy to learn the mechanics. I would argue.

• 2:43:59Speaker 01

  You can drill as many times. I'm not limiting how much you drill.

• 2:44:04Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 2:44:04Speaker 01

  You drill as mu- as long as you had to. I mean, it doesn't matter how long.

• 2:44:09Lex Fridman?

  The benefit of drilling, I'm just playing devil's advocate with you. The be- the benefit of drilling is that you can more efficiently get a higher number of reps in. So.

• 2:44:21Speaker 01

  What are you going to gain with those reps?

• 2:44:22Lex Fridman?

  Understanding the mechanics of the movement. And what I would like to argue is you don't necessarily need a resistance to deeply understand the mechanics of something. Now, I don't know, there's some, no, for so- there's some moves. Like, I bet you, you could drill your way to an incredible amount. Like, oh, Mau is a good example of that. You don't really need a resist.

• 2:44:48Lex Fridman?

  I can imagine a world in which the resisting opponent is not essential for developing some of the very fine details of the mechanics.

• 2:44:56Speaker 01

  Which one? Because I don't know any.

• 2:44:58Lex Fridman?

  What?

• 2:44:59Speaker 01

  You say mount.

• 2:45:00Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 2:45:01Speaker 01

  What, what are you gonna achieve by resist, by drilling with no resistance after you learn the mechanics? In mount.

• 2:45:08Lex Fridman?

  But see, what I'm trying to tell you, the learning of the mechanics isn't a thing where you get a certificate and you're done. You're gonna learn the fine details of the way you redistribute your weight. You're going to learn how to move your, I don't understand.

• 2:45:20Speaker 01

  Against a dead body.

• 2:45:22Lex Fridman?

  What?

• 2:45:22Speaker 01

  Like, every, everything you do is a slow process and timing.

• 2:45:26Lex Fridman?

  The timing, you can't.

• 2:45:28Speaker 01

  You have to understand moving.

• 2:45:29Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 2:45:30Speaker 01

  It's the guy's resisting. Like, he's not, I'm not gonna grab you and apply the movement. I need to grab you and feel when is the right time to do. Like, that, that, he only comes when you, with movement. If you're not fully resisting, how would I know?

• 2:45:47Lex Fridman?

  You couldn't infer through it. It's like a

• 2:45:50Speaker 01

  With no movement, with no resistance.

• 2:45:52Lex Fridman?

  There's some resistance.

• 2:45:54Speaker 01

  Arm lock, let's say arm lock.

• 2:45:55Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 2:45:56Speaker 01

  Okay, let's say you've been drilling for a week.

• 2:45:58Lex Fridman?

  Yep.

• 2:45:59Speaker 01

  Five hours a day. You should be an expert with the mechanics. But now, how are you gonna carry on drilling? With no resistance?

• 2:46:09Lex Fridman?

  No.

• 2:46:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. After that week, drilling five times, five hours a day, the arm lock, you still have no clue how to apply the arm lock against a resisting opponent. No clue, zero.

• 2:46:21Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:21Speaker 01

  So you don't know the movement, you know the mechanic, which is, you know, is like how long you have to drill and how, that doesn't matter, it varies of the person. You can drill for a month. After that month is over, you should understand how the mechanic works. You still have no clue how to apply the movement against a resisting opponent. You will never, ever know how until you apply with a fully resisting opponent. That's the only way to know, to really learn the movement.

• 2:46:50Lex Fridman?

  Yes. Well put. But the question is, can you have a small percentage of time when you go against a resisting opponent, to get the wisdom and the insight of what it takes to perform that movement? And you spend a large percentage of other time just practicing the mechanics of it? So like, uh,

• 2:47:10Lex Fridman?

  do you need to, as you get better and better at technique, to basically drift away completely from drilling and more into the sparring? I'd like to, I just

• 2:47:21Speaker 01

  You like drilling?

• 2:47:22Lex Fridman?

  No, I don't like drilling. I see, I, well, yes, I like drilling, I would say. Uh, but I just see, it always bothered me in the jujitsu community, how few people really saw the value of drilling. I've seen in wrestling, especially in the Russian style of wrestling, like the value of drilling. I don't necessarily mean that it's like a dead body or like a dummy or something like that, but just getting the reps in, really focusing on the high amount of reps.

• 2:47:46Speaker 01

  I agree in wrestling and judo. I agree that drilling is very important. Initial drill of a thousand times each move.

• 2:47:53Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, judo is a really big one for that too.

• 2:47:55Speaker 01

  It is, because It's the movement, the timing, you know, it's the precision of the movement.

• 2:48:03Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:03Speaker 01

  It has to be perfectly, because it's one movement. Then you learn about the timing of the movement when you're fighting. But during fighting, you only need to know the time. Because your body movement is exactly the same when you drill.

• 2:48:17Lex Fridman?

  That's really well put, yeah. The mechanics is much more important there.

• 2:48:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's completely different for Jiu Jitsu. Because let's say from Jiu Jitsu, like the arm lock. For example, we use that as an example. Let's say from the clothes guard, even my clothes guard. Before I go for the arm lock, I need to have a set of grips. Let's say I have your collar in your arm, right? And then, you know, when you're drilling, I'm gonna grab your arm, I'm gonna grab your collar, and I'm gonna drill my body until I can apply the arm lock and finish. And I can do that a thousand times. Okay, now we're fighting, we start with the grip. The moment that I initiate the arm lock attack, you will defend, the arm lock will not work. So it's not the one movement that will get me to attack the arm. There's a combination of all those things that I need to do.

• 2:49:02Speaker 01

  I need to feel about your weight, you know, I need to get you close to me. There's so many other things involved that I need to feel. That only comes with life, with a fully resisting opponent.

• 2:49:15Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, so pretty quickly it has to be live.

• 2:49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then it comes, how you practice, how you train. Starting on that position and just saying, let's go. And the moment that we disengage from that position, we go back. That's when you really learn. Because everything that you do wrong, you're gonna go back there. And you're gonna try again, try again, try again. And the repetition, it will teach you, have a feeling of timing, when to go. If there's, you know, there's other combinations, which it always has to go with it.

• 2:49:54Lex Fridman?

  By the way, for the internet that's currently yelling at me for arguing with Hajar Gracie about drilling, that's called, you know, playing devil's advocate to strengthen, to explore ideas. I'm not actually arguing. Okay.

• 2:50:10Lex Fridman?

  I forgot to ask you. If you had to fight against a bear, lion, gorilla, or anaconda to the death, which one would you choose? And would you be able actually to win against any of them?

• 2:50:24Speaker 01

  Well, a bear, a lion, a tiger.

• 2:50:28Lex Fridman?

  A tiger.

• 2:50:28Speaker 01

  Or anaconda.

• 2:50:29Lex Fridman?

  Oh, gorilla too, gorilla. You can go gorilla.

• 2:50:34Speaker 01

  I'll probably choose the anaconda.

• 2:50:37Lex Fridman?

  That's easy. I mean, you're not allowed to run away, though. So you're in a cage. Do you have to kill?

• 2:50:48Speaker 01

  Still the anaconda.

• 2:50:50Lex Fridman?

  So the other one?

• 2:50:51Speaker 01

  I think I have no chance against any other ones.

• 2:50:54Lex Fridman?

  Zero chance. That's what John thinks. I think.

• 2:50:56Speaker 01

  I have a tiny little against the anaconda.

• 2:51:01Lex Fridman?

  Just wait it out. You don't, you don't think it's possible to beat? I just, um. It, it feels like technique can do something against these animals. But they have so much strength, so much aggression.

• 2:51:15Speaker 01

  You know, the, the real naked choke, translating to Portuguese, is kill the lion. So ever since I was a kid, I always thought that maybe if I get behind a lion, the real naked choke, which, you know, in Portuguese, it says mata leão. So mata leão is kill the lion. So I always thought that that's the only way to kill a lion. Or to, you know, if you're fighting against a lion, go behind and put the real naked choke. I think you'll put him to sleep or the name mata leão.

• 2:51:48Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:49Speaker 01

  Is like kill the lion.

• 2:51:50Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:50Speaker 01

  Someone came up with the name. Why?

• 2:51:53Lex Fridman?

  Somebody must have.

• 2:51:54Speaker 01

  Maybe someone going to fight with a lion choked him up.

• 2:51:57Lex Fridman?

  There you go, John. There you go. I, I honestly, do you think, or so, actually, yeah, you, you understand controlling positions. Do you think like an animal like a gorilla or a lion would shake you off? If you had back full, you're locked in?

• 2:52:11Speaker 01

  Well, I would say the one that will have the biggest chance of staying there is the lion because he's just thin body.

• 2:52:18Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:18Speaker 01

  He's smaller than a tiger, I'll guess. Think tigers are bigger?

• 2:52:22Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 2:52:22Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:52:23Lex Fridman?

  So do you think they can shake you off, though?

• 2:52:25Speaker 01

  I think I'll have a bigger chance of staying against a lion's back than any other animal.

• 2:52:31Lex Fridman?

  Still not answering the question. Do you think you have a chance?

• 2:52:35Speaker 01

  If I start on the back.

• 2:52:36Lex Fridman?

  I start full locked in, full controls. Let's say it's a small enough line you can actually have a full.

• 2:52:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I would guess so. I mean, I would like to believe so.

• 2:52:46Lex Fridman?

  Well, like, just like you said, somebody must have been able to do it. Throughout your journey in jiu jitsu, have there been low points? Like, has there been points where you really doubted yourself?

• 2:52:56Speaker 01

  No, I never really doubted myself. There's low points in defeats. Those are the low points when I lost.

• 2:53:04Lex Fridman?

  How did you deal with defeats?

• 2:53:06Speaker 01

  I just went back to the gym next week and said, I need to get better. Every time I lost, I'm like, I need to get better because I need to choke them out. I need to submit them because, you know, win by points. It's as a black belt, I have very, very little loss.

• 2:53:27Speaker 01

  I would say, I mean, I don't like to sound like a crying baby, but I'll say most, most of those loss was very, very controversial.

• 2:53:36Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it was not a dominant, clear performance. It has about referees and points and so on.

• 2:53:40Speaker 01

  Everything I was, since I was very young, I always fought against my opponent and the referee. Like it's, if there was ever in my whole life, since I was a kid, there was ever a doubt, that you always go to my opponent, always, always. That was just something that I had to deal with my whole life.

• 2:53:58Lex Fridman?

  What's the motivation behind, what led to the fact that you win most of your matches by submission or in dominance? Like, are you chasing?

• 2:54:06Speaker 01

  Because that's the only way to prove you better. And I'm never, I never fought to win tournaments. That was never my goal. That was the consequence of me trying to be the best. Like, I don't care how many titles I have. I care about, I need to beat all my opponents. And not, not win because win is not enough. I have to submit them. That's the only way to prove I'm the best, to submit them. If I win by advantage or a point, that means I was better than them that day. That does not mean I'm better than them.

• 2:54:43Speaker 01

  If they top, if I take you down, pass your guard, mount and submit you, there is zero question who is the best. Like, there's nothing you can say about it. If I foot sweep you, you put your butt on the floor, I get an advantage, we're carrying a fighting and I win, means nothing. Not even means I'm better than you.

• 2:55:07Lex Fridman?

  And if that happened, that would haunt you.

• 2:55:10Speaker 01

  It is, for me, it's not enough. I wouldn't be happy.

• 2:55:15Lex Fridman?

  What advice would you give to young folks who look at you, who are able to accomplish from a place where you're not very good to becoming the best in the world at a thing? What advice would you give them to have a journey like that? To have a journey where they could be successful in their career and their life to such a high level?

• 2:55:38Speaker 01

  Determination is the most important thing. You need to know where you're going to get there. So you need to have a goal, which whatever that goal is, like, you need to set that goal for yourself so you know where you want to go. And to have the determination to get there and be sure that you will fail many times. Like, you cannot let your failures brings you down because you will fail many times. Everybody does.

• 2:56:11Lex Fridman?

  So you said you didn't look to external sources of belief. You just believed in yourself. Is there something to that where you have to try to, like, be your own source of belief? Flame the fire within yourself? Was that something difficult to do?

• 2:56:35Speaker 01

  But that was just very natural for me. I said, you know, you can surround yourself with great people. That is extremely important. Don't surround yourself with failures because they will, they're not going to push you to, you know, they don't know what it is, how to get there. I mean, everybody knows, but it's, when you surround yourself with winners, you know, you will know what it took them to get there. Use them as an example.

• 2:57:08Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's a certain kind of aura to people that just achieve great things and being around them. But it's still, it's hard to find people that, especially at that early stage.

• 2:57:17Speaker 01

  Any, any area.

• 2:57:19Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:20Speaker 01

  Any area.

• 2:57:20Lex Fridman?

  That's right. Yeah, greatness has a certain, I think it's almost humbling just to see, okay, any human, like at least that's a lesson I learned, almost any human can do, can be great.

• 2:57:32Speaker 01

  I mean, one, I've used Muhammad Ali as a great example. Look at his belief. Look at how much he believed himself before he was Muhammad Ali. Look at the, you know, determination he had, the way, the confidence he had fighting, even on his loss. They never changed him.

• 2:57:53Speaker 01

  No, when he fought Foreman, George Foreman, I, not, not one person in the world thought he was gonna win that fight by himself.

• 2:58:02Speaker 01

  He never doubted himself. Everybody else did. He won over all odds against. So it's, I mean, when you look at people like that, you can, you don't have to be a boxer to try to, you know, follow his example.

• 2:58:19Lex Fridman?

  But see, those are like epic, giant battles, but I feel like you fight the same kind of battle when you're young and your parents tell you that, you know, just with their whole energy that this is silly, don't be silly, don't, don't be silly to chase.

• 2:58:32Speaker 01

  It's harder. It is harder. But as a kid, it's harder to deal with that because, I mean, to go against adults, especially parents telling you otherwise, like the, the, the amount of strength you need is, is gigantic. I don't even know how much strength you need because that was not my case. So I can understand what you have to go through with the, with the force of your parents telling you, you know, otherwise. But it's how much you want, it will dictate how far you're gonna go, where you're gonna go. So it's, you know, if you can break through that, you're gonna win. It's that simple.

• 2:59:14Lex Fridman?

  And actually, one of the really nice things the internet does that I would give advice to young people is like you can find, even if your parents are not a source of that, your teachers, your community, you can find people on the internet who will believe in you.

• 2:59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:59:27Lex Fridman?

  It's kind of cool. It's kind of cool how the internet opens the possibility of like, a community of like 10, 11 year olds, like building shit. I see this all the time, engineering. And they, I mean, they're fueled by belief. They want to, they want to be like, they want to create the next trillion dollar company, right? There's that fire in their eyes, and not for the money, obviously, but to do something really impactful. And I think that fire is extinguished often by teachers and, and parents, because I think the logic that parents have, and teachers, they look at a kid and they don't, on the surface level, they don't see greatness.

• 3:00:12Lex Fridman?

  Right? They just see kind of mediocrity. And so to them, it's like, no, right, the world is more complicated than that. In order to get great, you have to, like, they somehow kind of always try to be reasonable with you. And so doing extinguish the flame. It's weird.

• 3:00:29Speaker 01

  I think most people afraid so to even try. So you can call them cowards for not trying because you are a coward for not trying, not putting yourself at risk, right? So I would say a big part of society are cowards for never trying, never pursuing what they really want. It's so, it's, there is, you know, a weight, a pressure, everyone, most people, a lot of people, I'll say around you, that because they were afraid to try, they, they don't incentivize people to do so because.

• 3:01:11Speaker 01

  They want everybody to be like them because imagine if everybody around you suddenly are not afraid and everyone is trying and you look yourself in the mirror and say, I was too scared. I've never tried. So you feel really bad about yourself. So it's easier to have people around you that think exactly like you than otherwise. So that reflects a lot on the kids. It's, you know, society almost like pressed them down to be like everybody else, to have a normal life, normal job. It's, you know, don't take risks because you can lose it all. I mean, that's the worst thing you can tell everybody. Take all the risks, lose it all a few times. That's how you're gonna build things.

• 3:01:55Lex Fridman?

  Especially when you're young.

• 3:01:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:01:57Lex Fridman?

  You can recover much.

• 3:01:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. What's the, what's the point of not trying? You, you should try. And you, you will lose everything. Doesn't matter. What's, what's, what, what it matters? To lose at everything. It does matter. It will teach you. Carry resilience, you know, try harder, go after, you know. It's, don't, don't live a normal life because otherwise you, I mean, what we're here for.

• 3:02:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Take big risks, take a lot of them, fail and fail and fail and fail.

• 3:02:26Speaker 01

  Fail a thousand times. Until you succeed and then you're gonna, you'll be the most proud of yourself. Like it's, there's, there's, they're not be priceless. It's, then we'll change the world.

• 3:02:39Lex Fridman?

  It is true that most people are not necessarily cowards, but have cowardice in them.

• 3:02:45Speaker 01

  It's, most people are just afraid to try, you know?

• 3:02:48Lex Fridman?

  And a lot of it comes from a place of love because um

• 3:02:53Lex Fridman?

  you know, if you try and you fail, you, you get hurt.

• 3:02:59Speaker 01

  It hurts. I mean, it's not, it's not a pleasant thing to fail. I mean, you feel terrible. To think, you know, when I lost any tournament was a good thing. You know, and think when I was getting beat up at the gym over and over again was a good thing. When I was getting there and get smashed by all the good guys, I think I liked it. Well, I hate it. But it's my resilience that, you know, make me carry on until I succeed. Think I like to get tapped. Well, I'm the most competitive, one of the most competitive persons you know. I hate to lose. But it's, I accept. I mean, I just need to get better. Every single time I lost in the championship, I hate.

• 3:03:40Speaker 01

  I've never screamed, no one never saw me screaming, shouting that, you know, I got robbed. You know, I should have won, the referee, yeah, boy, you know, screwed me over. I mean, it's okay. It happened. Shit happens. I need to get better. Cause I don't wanna be in that position ever again. So when I fight, if I'm better, if I tapped him, there's no question. I don't need to wait for the referee to decide that that was points or no points. If, you know, his interpretation, that made me better. Cause I, I was even more determined to be better. In my mind, I have to tap everybody else. Winning is not enough.

• 3:04:24Lex Fridman?

  It's just objectively speaking, what you learn the most from is really wanting to succeed and then failing.

• 3:04:35Lex Fridman?

  And doing that often. That's the reality from a parent, from a teacher perspective, from anybody, from people you love. If they really wanna do something, help them do that thing. If you think they're gonna fail, good. Help them do that faster so they fail faster.

• 3:04:49Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 3:04:50Lex Fridman?

  They're gonna learn.

• 3:04:51Speaker 01

  The only way to succeed is failing. There is no other way. That's what people have to understand. Without failing, there is no success.

• 3:05:02Lex Fridman?

  Since you've gotten a little softer, a little more emotionally open, what's the role of love in the human condition, Hundra Gracie?

• 3:05:09Speaker 01

  Probably the most important thing. That's the basic of everything, right? It's, I mean, love brings the best of us. It's if we had more love and compassion from, from the other person, I think we'd, we'll be a more evolved species. The world would be much better place than it is now.

• 3:05:29Lex Fridman?

  Did Fran's family help you along the way?

• 3:05:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot. I always had a lot of love and help from many people. That's why I succeed. I never got here by myself. I had a lot of people who loved me, believed in me, and helped me get to be here today.

• 3:05:47Lex Fridman?

  Well, I'm glad they did. I'm glad you're here today. I'm a huge fan. It was an honor to meet you. It was an honor to hang out with you in Vegas, to hang out with you again today. I've just been a huge fan for a long time.

• 3:05:59Speaker 01

  My pleasure, man.

• 3:06:00Lex Fridman?

  Thank you for everything you're doing. Thank you for this conversation. It was awesome.

• 3:06:03Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 3:06:05Lex Fridman?

  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Haji Gracie. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Haji Gracie himself. Jiu Jitsu is simple. You just have to do it right.

• 3:06:22Lex Fridman?

  Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.