127: How To Set Boundaries Without Feeling Guilty or Pushing People Away with Terri Cole

Welcome back, babes! In today’s episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, I’m joined by the one and only Terri Cole, licensed psychotherapist, author of Boundary Boss, and expert on all things boundaries, people-pleasing, and codependency. We’re breaking down what boundaries actually are (and what they aren’t), why so many people get them wrong, and how to set them without guilt. Terri also shares her personal journey of leaving the entertainment industry to follow her passion for psychology, plus practical tools to help you stop self-abandoning, start advocating for yourself, and build stronger, healthier relationships. What You’ll Learn in This Episode: The #1 reason people struggle with boundaries (Hint: It starts in childhood) The difference between a boundary, a preference, and an ultimatum – and how to know which one you’re setting Why people-pleasing isn’t “nice” – it’s dishonest (and how to stop) How to handle the guilt that comes with setting boundaries – and why it’s actually a sign of growth What to do when someone says, “You’ve changed” (spoiler: it’s a good thing) The truth about texting, boundaries, and dating expectations – why demanding daily texts is not a boundary, it’s control How to know if your standards are “too high” or if you’re avoiding intimacy The red flags of high-functioning codependency and how to break the cycle Get Terri's Book: Boundary Boss: The Essential Guide to Talk True, Be Seen, and (Finally) Live Free Take Terri's boundaries quiz MERCH IS NOW AVAILABLE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back, babies. Happy Friday, y'all. Or happy whatever day it is when you're listening to this. I'm so stoked to be here with you guys. Today, we have the one and only Terry Cole. She is fu- fucking nominal. I am so obsessed with her and her New York energy. And we talk about boundaries, all things boundaries, the importance of them, what they're not, how to set them, and just ways to show up as authentically as you possibly can. So babes, if you need anything, as always, everything will be linked in the show notes. You want to join a course, please don't forget to rate, review the show, buy some merch, whatever you need, it's available. But as always, please speak with kindness when we do leave a review.

• 0:42Sabrina Zohar?

  I read them all, and I appreciate them all, and I'm grateful for you all. And I'm just so fucking stoked to be here with you guys. And as always, thank you for letting me show up as me, and you guys showing up as you. It really means the world. So, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Well, hello, Terry. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Well, hello again. How are you?

• 1:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Good. We were just doing your show, so guys, go listen to Terry's podcast as well. But I am really fucking excited to have you today because you are, one, just amazing as a human, but you're also so knowledgeable and interesting, and you have such a cool story, just even about you and like your, your marriage and your partner and just how you do what you do. So, if we could, could you please just tell us a little bit about you, how you got started, who you are, and like what fuels you every day? What are your passions with what you do?

• 1:32Speaker 01

  So many things. I am, I've been a licensed psychotherapist for the past 27 years. I've also been with my husband for the past 27 years. I had a whole career before becoming a psychotherapist. I was a talent agent, negotiating contracts for celebrities and supermodels, if you can believe that, New York City and LA. And I was on this, my, my own real evolutionary, like, psychological therapeutic journey. And that influenced everything that I did. So by the time, you know, I was, I like got too healthy to stay in Hollywood, basically. I literally was like, this is not a hotbed of mental health, and I gotta get out of here.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Nobody understood. I was actually at that point, running a bi-coastal talent, the New York office of a bi-coastal talent agency. And representing elite models for TV and film and a bunch of stuff. My father was like, wait, excuse me, what? You're quitting your fancy job where you're making a zillion dollars to become a social worker? Great. Sounds like a good idea. He literally said, sounds weird.

• 2:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Thanks so much.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Good thing I don't need anything from you, buddy.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  But I just couldn't stay. And I was, I was as lit up then, as I am now, about our own ability to change our life experiences, or as human beings, that I couldn't believe it was like when I found therapy and started implementing changes and started having a deeper understanding of self and child within. I stopped drinking when I was, you know, young. I started therapy at nineteen, stopped drinking when I was twenty one. It's like, I couldn't, I was like, is everybody, why isn't everyone doing this? Like, you don't have to be like a victim. So to me, it was like in my mind, with therapy, before therapy, I felt like I was like a little boat.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  And like, the world was like the storm or the tsunami that's just like jerking you around, you know? And you're like, wow, as you know, you would said on my show, like, this is happening to me. With therapy, it's like I became the storm. I was no longer the boat. I was the weather. I was deciding how it was going to be. I made power pivots and made choices and it didn't matter that, that a lot, most people didn't understand that I was changing careers in my early thirties. Because I was the only one having to live it. I'm like, you can understand or not understand. I don't need your approval or any money from you. So, great. So that's how I sort of switched careers. And it's funny, people a lot will say,

• 4:08Speaker 01

  wow, so different. You went from that, being a talent agent to being a therapist. And I was like, so different. How about so the same? As, as a talent agent. It's so the same. Part of how I knew it was time to leave was that I could no longer deny that I didn't give a shit about the Pantene deal or the movie deal. I just didn't care. What I was passionate about was getting my clients into therapy, eating disorder clinics, drug treatment clinics. Like, I was referring people out to therapy all the time. And I was like, I, this, yeah, I don't care about what I'm supposed to care about. I care about these human beings. I sure do.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  But I don't care about this business. And I also, I had a niece at the time who had a weight problem. And I was like, I'm a part of like this toxic culture that says that women need to weigh no pounds. Like, even if I don't subscribe to that, I felt this responsibility. And I was like, I just, I gotta get out of here. So I did. And that was in my early thirties. And I'm not in my early thirties anymore. That was twenty seven years ago. But I'm super, super pumped now. And so if I were to say like, what's my mission? You know, what am I lit up about? Teaching as many people on planet Earth how to lessen their own suffering and elevate their

• 5:36Speaker 01

  own joy. Because that's what it really is. When you're, when you're teaching these things, I also have a ton of free content in the world. So I've had a podcast since 2015, as you know, The Terry Cole Show. But I also have a huge YouTube channel. And in my mind, I want to, even the playing field. I feel like in, in the US in particular, it seems to be that good psychotherapy is only for the wealthy or only for the people with means. And the bottom line is that everyone deserves, which is part of why I started writing books. I was like, I could get these books into a zillion libraries.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  And then even if you didn't have twenty bucks for a book, you could still have access to this knowledge that you deserve as a human being. So I'm really, really lit up about my audience and about my, I have a community called TCM, where like, I meet weekly, Q and A. Like, I really feel like it's this container for people's growth, whether you've ever had therapy or never had therapy.

• 6:43Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that. I share very similar to you of like a totally different life before entering this. And to your point, yeah, when you stop giving a shit and you're like, I don't care. I don't care if you buy this or not, like, I'll give it to you. And you're just like, wait, wait, that's not the point of this anymore. And so I think it's really beautiful to be able to find that passion, that call, something that lights you up. But I am curious, because I love, I love your mission, right? What do you find people get, if the word would be stuck, but their own suffering, right? What do you find at least is a common pattern or theme throughout that that you've noticed with 27 years of experience, not personally, but also professionally? Where do you think that's that hiccup becomes?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Well, part of it is, if you look at what the what I write about, what I focus on, what I've deconstructed and reconstructed is boundaries and high functioning codependency, right? Because those were the themes that I saw over and over and over again, where it didn't matter what the presenting problem was, the person could come into my office, and I could soon connect the dots backwards to the fact that they do not have this all important skill set to learn how to assert and set boundaries that no, there were just, nobody was fluent in the language of boundaries, because there was so much people pleasing, and because there was so much high functioning codependency. And so

• 8:06Speaker 01

  the beginning was boundaries. And then from that, I saw that one of the biggest pain points in my community was women not understanding why they felt the way that they did in their relationships, feeling burnt out, feeling underappreciated, feeling angry, actually being exhausted, getting physically sick, autoimmune disorders, cancer, MS, TMJ, so many things from living the way that they were living.

• 8:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I love that. And I'm curious, what you have experienced of, because I think boundaries is the, it's the hot word, right? And it's the hot word in the sense where like, I think a lot of people get it wrong, right? I hear people say, well, that's my boundary. And it's like, no, that's an ultimatum, or nope, that you're, you can't, a boundary isn't, well, you have to text me every day. It's like, well, that sounds like control. So I am curious, really, if we just dissect, can we just get rudimentary for a second and very basic? What is a boundary? How are we seeing this, right? The difference really between boundary ultimatum, like, where do we see what is healthy, what is not in that world?

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Well, the way that I teach it, according to Terry Cole, um, you're, I want you to look at your boundaries like your, oh, your own personal rules of engagement.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  So this lets other people know what's okay with you and what's not okay with you. You're, according to me, your boundaries are made up of your preferences, your desires, your limits and your deal breakers. Right? There's the difference where if we look at the difference between a preference and a deal breaker, right? A deal breaker is something that you would potentially end a relationship over. A preference is I really feel like having pizza tonight, or I really feel like, or I like coffee over tea, or a shower over a tub, or whatever. When you are a high functioning codependent, which we'll get into later, but when you're a people pleaser, we could just keep it simple.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  You think that having no preferences is preferable, right? Where it's like, you know me, easy breezy, no fuss, no muss, that's, that's me, whatever you guys want, which is not usually accurate, like not, not truthful. But I always thought it was important to look at the fact that boundaries, which is preferences, desires, limits and deal breakers, they don't just make up your boundaries. They're also the things that make you, Sabrina, uniquely you and make me uniquely me and everyone else for that matter. So your preferences actually matter and having a preference, because we all do, isn't being like extra or weird. It's just being honest.

• 10:46Sabrina Zohar?

  What you're describing is like the cool girl, right? They're all like, oh, I don't have any needs, whatever you want to do. I, you tell me to jump, I'll just say how high. You tell me where to be and I'm there on time. And I get, somebody had asked the other day, I don't understand, why doesn't the cool girl or the nice guy, right? Why don't they get the person? And all I kept thinking was because it's one dimensional. It's really sexy when someone says, no, that doesn't work for me. Oh, I find that really attractive. And so I, I see that often and it's like, do you see in your experience that it typically goes hand in hand, like people pleasing will accompany with a loss of boundaries and vice versa? Or are there nuances even just to that component of it?

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Well, I do think that people pleasing, I mean, when we think about what it is, it's stepping over our own boundaries to please another. Sometimes your pleasing doesn't require self abandonment, but I'm gonna say a lot of times it does. So there is a boundary element there, but I would categorize that as internal boundaries. When we do not protect ourselves, when we do not, when we say yes, when we want to say no, to please another. Ultimately, that becomes very not pleasing to us, but when you really think about what that means, that also means that you are not an emotionally trustworthy person.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Because if your yes cannot be trusted, or your no cannot be trusted, you cannot be trusted. And listen, we all know, all of us know the people pleasers in our lives. When they say they're gonna do something, they say, yes, yes, yes. Usually, I think, alright, so Betty said she's gonna be coming on Friday. There's a 50% chance that is gonna be there on Friday, right? If something goes down in my life, you know who I'm not calling? Betty. Because I don't know that I can count on her. She is not emotionally trustworthy. So I think that a lot of times,

• 12:53Speaker 01

  people with people pleasing tendencies, see it as, I'm just being nice. But I want you to reframe that as, I'm just being dishonest.

• 13:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I love that. That actually reminds me, my sister and I had something like that, where every time one of our parents would come to town, I would say, okay, how do you want to do this, right? How long do you want them to stay with you? How long do you want them to stay with me? Do you want them to hotel? How do we want to do this? And we'd always have a, she would say, okay, have mom come to me for three days, and then she'll go to you for four days. Okay, cool. And then in the moment, I'd be at her house, and she would come up at the first night and go, you know what, actually, can mom just stay with you the whole time? And every time I'd be like, Jamie, we gotta talk about this. Like you keep saying yes to things, but if you don't want that, I said, then what happens to me? Now I'm anxious because I'm going, can I trust you? Are you actually going to take mom? Or are you just saying yes to me? And she finally said, I just, I don't want to hurt anybody. And I said, but at the end of the day, you hurt everybody when you do that, because by not being honest and saying,

• 13:50Sabrina Zohar?

  you know what, Sam? Mom triggers me. It's too much for me. Can she stay at yours? At least I know, and I can plan and prep and be prepared. Otherwise, I feel like I'm walked to your point. I can't trust you. And I think, I'm sure a lot of people hearing this are like, oh, no way. I'm trustworthy. It's that I don't trust other people. But I can't help but wonder if we act in that way, and we believe in that way. Right? Where is it coming from?

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Fear. I mean, listen, why don't we, let's go back, right? To the big question about boundaries. Why don't we know how to do it? So, most of us, so you have a boundary blueprint, everyone does, we all do, which is basically a paradigm in your unconscious mind about the way things are, the way things should be. This is how we have relationships. This is how we do family. This is how we, right? This makes sense. You never say no to your family, or you, right? It, there's all of these, a collection of beliefs that have been handed down through generations, a lot of times, not even looked at. They just get handed down,

• 14:57Speaker 01

  we just go, oh, I guess this is the way the world is, keep going. This generation, most of us, if you've had a decent amount of therapy, you have a realization that, that might have been the way boundaries were for your parents, or for your mother, let's say. Let's say you had a people pleaser as a mom. It doesn't necessarily mean it has to be that way for you. Right? That could be, you, we can learn from that, but we need to know what is in that boundary blueprint in the unconscious mind. So we bring it up to the, you know, the top. And in my, my first book, Boundary Boss, you know, there's a whole, very long list of questions that you answer to start getting a really clear, black and white picture

• 15:40Speaker 01

  of why you relate the way you do, because I promise you, you make sense. Every single person listening, it doesn't matter if you are great with boundaries, if you are terrible with boundaries. There's a reason why, there's a million reasons why you are the way you are. And when you think about childhood, a lot of times, we were in situations where to stay safe, we needed to people please. We needed to fawn. We needed to do whatever we needed to do to sort of get by. Nobody has to send you like an inter-office memo on how to survive as a kid. You just intuit that shit and you just

• 16:21Speaker 01

  do it. So what we learned that probably really did keep us safer or more loved in our childhood was adaptive as hell. Like, that's so amazing that our little brains can do it. And then those things become maladaptive in adulthood. And I think that that's what we need to look at is what patterns, what interactions are we having now that are maladaptive, that are not working, that do not, are not making our relationships better. They're just making us more bitter than we are. Because a lot of times, if you are not good with boundaries, and maybe you're code dependent, you are over-functioning, over-giving, over-doing, being more responsible for things than

• 17:02Speaker 01

  other people, getting it done, but at the expense of yourself. And you can do it, but you can't do it forever.

• 17:12Sabrina Zohar?

  But talk about not sustainable. I'm glad we even touched on that because I think what I hear more often than not is I'm scared. And it's like, that's, that's totally valid, right? Like you said, that fear comes from somewhere. And at least for me, saying no in our household, the last time I said no to my father was when he told me to go fuck myself and hung up on the phone because I said I could not go away with him at the date he wanted to go. Something as simple as, sorry, no, I have work. I was like, I have something going on. And it was just an explosion. How dare you say no to me? And now in my adult life, that's my favorite word. I love being like, sorry, can't make it. Nope, that doesn't work for me. Because I know, sure, there might have been that guilt, which I do want to get to of like, how do you work through the guilt when you say no?

• 17:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Because that is, I think, a huge component. And then I have an audience question for you. But since we're here, can we talk about that? The guilt of saying no, the guilt of how we show up? Because I think for a lot of us, and for just anybody listening with that, especially with that anxiety, we feel bad, right? Oh, I shouldn't say that. Or they're going to be mad at me. Oh, see, this is why they don't like me. What can we do with that information or those feelings? How do you work through that?

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Well, part of it is, I, I think we have to question

• 18:24Speaker 01

  the guilt. We have to lovingly look at it. Because so much of the time, guilt is habituated. Right? Guilt is not warranted per se. We just are used to leaving interactions with people being excited, happy, getting what they need. When you start to become a recovering people pleaser, when you start to have better boundaries, when you start to deal with your codependency, you will have to disappoint people. Yeah. That will have to be okay. So we need to be really precise about what we're feeling. I don't like the feeling of disappointing my sister.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  That makes me feel bad. It makes me feel uncomfortable. It makes me feel something.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  But do, does that mean I actually have a legitimate reason to feel guilty? Because here's the thing with guilt. Sometimes we snapped at someone, we said something mean, we did something that a normal person with a conscience, you should feel a little guilty because what it, what does it do? It is an impetus for us to make amends. It's an, you know, we, we can take a corrective action. If we go, oh, that was, I really, that was kind of shitty, what I did, or what I said, or the way that I handled it. So there's, there's nothing wrong with appropriate guilt. But most of the time, recovering people pleasers are not talking about appropriate guilt. They're talking about guilt. If they do anything less,

• 19:57Speaker 01

  then please everyone in their lives. And we have to just accept. And this is the same thing with being in recovery as with codependency. Is it in order to actually recover, you have to accept that You are going to disappoint people. It's funny, Sheryl Richardson had a book called, Let Me Disappoint You. So I feel like if you're in recovery, just that, that, that, that whole idea just has to become okay with you. And someone being disappointed in you, that doesn't have to end your relationship. Someone being disappointed, you can also acknowledge it. I can see from the, from what you're saying that you're disappointed,

• 20:39Speaker 01

  and I'm sorry that you are. And yet, I have this presentation I'm doing tomorrow, and I will really miss you guys tonight, but I can't do it. Right? We can, we can provide, another thing to talk about here is when we're saying no, first, let's talk about how to say no. And then let's talk about the difference between context and convincing. So, how to say no? We're going to start with stopping the auto yes. Right? That's the beginning. So you don't have to go from someone who's kind of a yes person to someone who's a no person. You're going to go from yes person to maybe I'm not sure person. And then, because here's the thing, if we say to someone, oh, do you want to come out to dinner with us on

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Saturday night? And you say, you know what, I actually need to check with my partner to see if we have plans. I'll let you know. I'll let you know anymore. Let you know. I actually have a 24 hour decision making policy. I'll let you know. I, like, there's all these ways that we can buy time. Because what we're doing is we're training people to understand that they're not necessarily entitled to an immediate answer. Give yourself time. Give yourself, think about it. Do you want to do it? Or do you just feel obligated? Because that's, that's how you go through life, because you're a people pleaser. And it is so much

• 22:03Speaker 01

  easier to come back to say, hey, I spoke to my partner, and actually, we have other plans. I hope you guys have a great time. It's so much easier to give an authentic and real no, if you haven't already given an auto yes. Because what happens is right when we start agreeing to doing a bunch of shit we don't want to do, do you ever notice how you might conveniently get a migraine the morning of that baby shower that you should have said no to? Like, we will find ways not to do shit that we do not want to do. And then people think you're flaky. You know what I mean?

• 22:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I've been there. And oh, boy, do I. Um, and it to your point, God, while you were talking, there were so many nuggets. And I'm like, don't forget. And then it's like, surely enough. But as you were talking, it was really just, it reminds me of it's very like the LA. When I lived there, it was so frustrating because I got, maybe I'll let you know, we'll see. And I'm like, I'd rather you just tell me, I need a minute, let me decide. Right? Because it, oh, this is where the ha, I actually came back on it. What I see especially, this is like the biggest to me issue I have with boundaries being used incorrectly. When it comes to especially the texting and dating scenarios, whether it be dating or relationships. Right? But I hear this every day of like, well, we all have our phone in our hands 24/7. If I text you, it takes 10 seconds to text me back.

• 23:20Sabrina Zohar?

  And what I hear from that is like, but you don't respect people's boundaries. You're not respecting that someone said, I don't relate to my phone like that. That's not an interest of mine. And instead, we're so quick to labeling, well, they're avoidant. They'd rather not. I heard that on a podcast recently. And it was this really big podcaster and like, let's speak frank. This guy has no business giving dating advice, but here we are. And someone wrote in and said, I had one date with this guy and I'm not, I just, he texts way too much. It makes me uncomfortable. It's every five seconds. Hey, what are you up to? What are you doing? Where are you blah, blah, blah? She said, what's a boundary I can set to let him know? And what pissed me off was his response was, well, if you really liked him, you wouldn't be this upset with it. And your chat sounds like you're just not that into him. And it sounds like you're making excuses.

• 24:04Sabrina Zohar?

  And then it's thousands of comments of like, she's classic avoidant. Any woman would be happy with this. And it reminded me of when I met Ryan and I had told him like, I'm, I really want more texting. It would make me feel more connected. And he said it so beautifully. He said, hey, thank you so much for sharing that. But I'd like to be honest with you. I work in tech and I stare at a screen for nine hours of the day. The last thing I want to do is have a mini computer in my hand, trying to connect with you. If that doesn't work, I completely respect it. And if not, I'd love to take you out for dinner and get to know you in person. I could do FaceTimes, phone calls. I just really don't want to text a lot.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 24:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you. Perfect. Hello. Beautiful. chef's kiss. And I get this all the time. And I think that's where I really wanted to have this conversation with you, because I think a lot of people will go into the, well, you know, they pushed my boundaries. They crossed my boundaries. My boundary is you need to text me every day. Otherwise, I'm not going to be in a relationship with you. And Terry, I'd love to know, what do you hear when I say that? What comes to you?

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, PS is not a boundary. That's the demand. They're two different things. I think that there's a lot of confusion out there and people do write to me all the time about boundaries. Is this a boundary or this is my boundary? And I think that a lot of times people mistake boundaries with levers of control.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  The attempt, the desire to control another's behavior. So I'll give a quick example, which I think could be helpful. I had a client who she went to bed early by like 10 o'clock at night. And her husband was a night owl and stayed up late. And she hated that so much and she really wanted them to go to bed at the same time. And she was all like, I tell him, he needs more sleep than he gets. He should be going to bed at 10 o'clock with me because he's got to get up in the morning and blah, blah, blah. But part of the issue was also that he would go to bed at midnight. She's already sleeping and he would turn on the light and get changed in the room and wake her up.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  So I was like, okay, so let's get, she's like, my boundary is that he comes to bed at the same time as me, because that's what he should do to be productive anyway. And I said, no, so he's a grown man and that's not a boundary. That's a request which you surely can make or compromise. Maybe a few nights a week, you guys go to bed at the same time, or maybe a couple of nights, you go to bed later, whatever it is. But where the boundary violation is happening is when he is coming to bed and waking you up. So you can make a simple request. If you're going to go to bed later than me, can you get one of those little miners lamps? Can you get undressed in the second bedroom or wherever, like in the, you know, have your stuff in the hallway or whatever it is?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Can you be sensitive and try to be quiet so that I can stay asleep? That is an appropriate ask. That is actually a boundary because now his late nightness started rolling into her trying to sleepness. Right? But her judging him for not wanting to go to bed early and not sleeping as much as she does is not a boundary. That's a preference. So I feel like that's a good example of where it's appropriate to assert yourself and say, hey, you waking me up is uncool. Can you please stop? Right? That is a boundary. Him going to bed when he wants as a grown man. That's not a boundary. That's just judgment on her part.

• 27:25Sabrina Zohar?

  I knew it's funny to me. I, the first thing he said, I was like 10 o'clock early. I'm like, I made bed by eight 15, right? Like that's my, and but and to your point, my partner and I now sleep in separate rooms because it wasn't working for me. And it's not, we love each other. I love him to the moon and back. But my, my thought was, listen, I'm not going to control you and how you sleep. But what I could do is say, well, that doesn't work for me. So I'm going to remove myself. I'll just go to the other room. I love you. We tuck each other in. It's a whole little thing. And then we go to bed and when we wake up, we reconnect and we come back together.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 27:53Sabrina Zohar?

  The request would be, hey, could you please try this, this and this? But I'm with you on that because somebody had actually asked, because I think this is a, this kind of plays in. And the audience question was, I grew up in a home where I had to be hyper independent. Now I feel like I can't let people in without feeling unsafe. How do I build boundaries without shutting people out? And I think this kind of plays into what we're describing. So I'd love to hear your thoughts of how do you start to build boundaries without keeping people away? Right? Or without being the, you need to do this, or you have to text me every day. You have to do this. Where do we find a balance?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  I think we have to first, we have to go in before we go out. So I think that you have to really look at your boundary blueprint and say, all right, why is this so hard? So this person shared that it was the type of family that they grew up in. So they feel like they didn't have any good modeled behavior for being allowed to have healthy boundaries. And I think that you have to dial into how you feel. Pay attention to what people do.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Right? We pay attention to what they say as well. But the truth is what they do. Meaning, you know, someone who says, oh, what are you doing? Yeah, I really want to see you. But they never make a plan to see you. I don't even care whether they really want to or not. Maybe they're avoiding me. Who knows? I don't know. Who knows? But I know that for you, what you care about is how you feel. And if someone is sort of stringing you along, but not making a move, you know, let's just say, good example of boundaries in dating. Someone says, hey, I'll call you on Friday. And maybe we can do something Friday night. Friday comes, they don't call and you don't call them. And then Monday night, they're like, hey, how was your weekend?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  So you got to decide, are you colluding with their fake ass reality? That they didn't say what they said. Don't they? And I hope the answer is no. And I think it's also okay to say, oh, when I didn't hear from you, I just figured you had a flaky moment. That's like a, that's like a Matthew Hussey, uh, you know, the, the dating coach, Matthew Hussey. That's like one, one of his, he's, he's got a bunch of great scripts, but that's one. Um, my weekend was great. I hope yours was good too. But you mentioned.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Why are we pretending? You literally said, I'll call you on Friday and maybe we'll get together on Friday night. So I think that having boundaries also means being able to assert yourself. Does that work for you? Because of course it doesn't. And if we don't speak up, then you end up with more of the same. So the beginning is dial into how you feel. If someone says to you, you're, you're in the, you're in the beginning dating. And the person picks a place, let's just say you live in Brooklyn and they live in Queens. And they pick a place in Queens.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  To meet, which means you will be traveling all the way back to Brooklyn late at night by yourself, or paying for an Uber, or whatever it is. Pay attention to that, because that's someone who is doing what's convenient for them. And don't meet them. There. Say, hey, actually, let's meet closer to Brooklyn, because I wouldn't feel safe taking the subway home late at night, or whatever. Like, you can say, or I'd like to suggest that we meet in the middle. Let's meet in Manhattan, or whatever it is, but pay attention and be self considerate. Right? Put, put your, whatever the other person is saying and doing,

• 31:30Speaker 01

  I want you to run it through the self-consideration lens. Does that work for you? If the answer is no,

• 31:41Speaker 01

  then say no, because it's better to know in the beginning. And here's the thing, I'm not vilifying. Sometimes people like, maybe that person was really excited about that restaurant. They loved it. It was a neighborhood restaurant. They wanted to show you. And if you said, hey, I'd like to meet somewhere, whatever, they, they might go, oh, my God, you're so right. I'm sorry about that. Yes, let's meet in the city, or I can even come to Queens, or whatever it is. Like, it's not about the other person, though. Because when we are trying to set boundaries, I don't need to vilify them to assert a healthy boundary for me, to assert my preference, my desire, my limit, and my deal breaker. I don't need to. And we can do it. Here's another thing that we can just bust this myth right now.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Sad words, like, people feel like if you have good boundaries, that you have to be like a bitch about it, that, that it means that you're caustic and that you're punching people in the face with your nose all day long. And no, it can be done lovingly. It can be done with humor. It's just that silently suffering is not good for you, your self-esteem, and not good for your relationships, because ultimately, people don't know you.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  People don't know you. So you're trying to be intimate, but if you don't tell the truth about how you feel and don't assert what you actually want, people don't know you. They they know this this fake you that you're you're presenting.

• 33:10Sabrina Zohar?

  Which is why they can never really fall in love with you. It's like that bait and switch. You're like, who is this? I mean, when Ryan and I first went on a date, he would act because I'm not I stopped drinking when I was 20, kind of same, like similar to you. Like, I just stay. It was not my thing. Just not. It's not a vice that I really resonated with. And so dating when you don't drink alcohol, a lot of people like it's so hard. I'm like, I don't know. I didn't find it that difficult because I was not. I was unapologetic about it. I didn't hide behind the like, oh, well, yeah, sorry. Oh, God, you want to know if somebody like I've had that a guy that worked nightlife and he said, come out and meet me at 11. And I was like, get fucked. Look, I'll meet you out at 11. I was like, what am I 20? I was like, my 30s. And all I said to him was, hey, that doesn't work for me. I'm up at 5. I can't meet past 7. And his response was, I don't get I don't get my day started until like 9 o'clock at night. And I said, okay, well, then we're not a

• 33:55Sabrina Zohar?

  match. And

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you're still doing cocaine and I'm not. So there you go. Okay.

• 34:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, exactly. You know, that New Yorker. And so I remember when I met Ryan, he said, he said, do you want to get a drink? And I said, hey, I'm not really a big drinker and much rather do something active if that works for you. And he was like, absolutely. How about we go to this hike? And it was like a big hike. There's a lot of people. He said, let me show you around. And if we like each other, we can get dinner. And if not, that's totally fine. We could part ways. Great. Because then I could show up in my cute little sportswear. I was in my element. I said, hey, I wear this all the time. I'm not going to show up all gussied at this five star restaurant when your girl wears sweatpants all the time. And it allowed me to show up authentically because here's the reality. And it's another aspect that we should get into. Because I'm tired of hearing they cross my boundaries, they went against my boundaries. No, no, no, baby, you did that

• 34:42Sabrina Zohar?

  yourself. Because when I told a guy, I don't do dinner dates for a first date. Let's grab a cocktail, you know, a drink, a mocktail, whatever. And he persists and says, come on, it's a great restaurant. And then I go, okay, fine. I just crossed my own. I said, no. And then I said, yes, because you convinced me. But I am curious, your thoughts on like that, right? The crossing boundaries. And then the second part to that question is, how do we know that we're not avoiding intimacy? Right? When do you know that your boundaries are not then too rigid, too high, too much, to where now you're just pushing people away?

• 35:16Speaker 01

  All right. So what was the first question again?

• 35:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Great question. Um, first question.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  You can't do double questions, dude.

• 35:24Sabrina Zohar?

  I can't, not for me, apparently not. So let's just go right into how do you know if your boundaries are too rigid? How do you know if you're keeping people out?

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, we have to identify when a boundary has been crossed. So I always have you tap into your body because even if you didn't say anything, your body absolutely responded to like that douchey comment that Uncle Bob made or whatever, whatever happened, it is absolutely been tracked and logged in a physical way. So this is why it's so important that we're not disconnected, that we're doing embodiment practices, that we're physically fit, that we're walking or stretching or doing something that connects us in an embodied way. Because then we can feel those nuances. So first things first is how do we know where

• 36:14Speaker 01

  a boundary is needed? Well, you can do a resentment inventory.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  If we do a resentment inventory, it's going to show us where either a boundary is needed, a boundary is being crossed, or a boundary needs, like you need to actually establish or say something. And it's, it's easy to do. We all know right now. Who we're holding resentment for, right? You could, you could list at least one person, most people. And then you look at the situation and go, okay, so what, what is it? Because so much of the time it's what am I not saying? Where am I not asserting? Myself, you know, in Boundary Boss, I give an example of when I was living in New York, my sister was also living there. My, I have three sisters, but this is the one closest in age, and we used to share clothes. But she would come to my apartment and take shit

• 37:04Speaker 01

  from my apartment and then not tell me, she would use her key. And then I'd be like about to go away and looking for something and but I wouldn't have it in my house because you, you know. And so it really became a thing where I was like, listen, I like sharing clothes with you, but not if you keep taking stuff without telling me. So, and if it happens again, I'm going to take your key back. And she was like, oh, you're so dramatic. I'm like, yeah, well, I am. And she stopped. She, she started, you know, she actually didn't want to not have access to my closet. So, but that wasn't, that's an example of a boundary violation that I had, I had asserted more than once. And then you have to add a consequence to the boundary ask, right? Because what is going to?

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Change behavior. When you think about as humans, what is the the main thing that makes us change behavior is some kind of pain, some kind of discomfort. And this is just the way we're wired. So if you don't want to be in a round robin of, you know, if you have boundary bullies in your life and you don't want to end up having the same conversation, why doesn't it matter? Why don't I matter? You have to realize that there are more actions that you can potentially take, as you were talking about, you know, stepping back from relationships or getting off the phone or removing yourself or whatever it is. So there's that. How do you know when they're too big? Is that what you're saying?

• 38:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Rigid, right? Like, we hear that, like, I have just high standards, right? By the way, I remember the other question, you answered it while we were going along, so we're great. But yes, that I have rigid or like, I just have high standards. No one meets them. Like, how do we know that balance?

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Well, rigid boundaries, if you think about what what does it mean? It means that you're more likely to go someone or to not get back to someone. If someone hurts your feelings, you're less likely to say why, and you're more likely to just step step back from them. I have a really great boundary quiz that you can just go to boundaryquiz.com. And there's archetypes, and it's 13 questions, super easy, completely free. But you'll see which archetype, because some archetypes are more rigid, some archetypes are more porous, where it's more like the peacekeeper, or like, you know what I mean? Someone who's who's doesn't want there to be any problems.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  So that's something that everybody listening can actually go and do. But moving into the rigidity is you have to look at when you're upset or hurt, how do you behave in relationships? Are you cutting something down? If someone is never dating because there's quote unquote, standards are so high, you don't you don't need to, I mean, you don't need to be a therapist to know that there is secondary gain is what I would call it in having those high standards. So what does that mean? That means that when we are, when we find ourselves, anybody listening, if you find yourself in some situation that you say you don't want to be in, but you are endlessly in, there is something therapeutically called

• 40:05Speaker 01

  secondary gain, which is the unobvious gain to staying stuck. So with someone who will use your example, has impossibly high dating standards. The question where you're going to ask yourselves is, what do I get to not face, not feel, or not experience by staying stuck here? So in this situation, we'd say, by having impossibly high standards. Oh, I get to not be in a relationship even though I say I want to be in a relationship. I get to not be vulnerable. I get to not, not know what I'm doing, right? I get to not do it messily because relationships are messy. So there's, when you're not sure, why do I find myself in this situation again?

• 40:49Speaker 01

  And this, it works in relationships, money problems, any situation. You know, it's funny, I had someone, one of my clients, a lot of my clients during the pandemic, were just like gummies and drinking and just more than usual. Now I wasn't that concerned about it because I knew, I was like, this is circumstantial. We are all in our first ever global pandemic that we've experienced in our lifetimes. And these are people I've known for a long time. So I, I, this person did not have a history of addiction. So, but she was like, I really want to stop drinking during the week. I really want you to help me. I really want you to make me be accountable, blah, blah. I said, okay, so three weeks in a row, she failed. By, by the last week, she was like, I didn't even make it to Monday. I was like, okay.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  So now we're definitely talking about the wrong thing, for sure. So I asked her the secondary game question. I said, what do you get to not face, not feel, or not experience by drinking three big oral glasses of wine tonight? And she just blurted out that my marriage is over.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  I was like, oh, we should be talking about your marriage, right? Let's not talk about drinking because that's not what it is, but it was a symptom of something else. So the secondary game questions, if you ask yourself, we can include them in the show notes, are, can be really helpful to be like, oh, there is something, I'm being spared something, even though it's getting in the way. It's a self sabotaging thing, you know?

• 42:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, no, I actually really love that example because I think it's super helpful because it's kind of what we talked about even on your show. There's a root, usually a root that's much deeper, right? Like if we want to paint a picture, you can't avoid it's still a pig. And I think I wanted to kind of end this really incredible conversation with like talking about now, okay, so if we have some people that are like, all right, I feel good about setting some boundaries. Like, I feel like I could do this. But then there comes the, but what do I do when the other person doesn't accept it? I don't know how to handle it, right? And I just wanted to see what your thoughts are, or advice, or any thoughts on, one, how do you handle it internally, right? What does that grieving process look like? But two, how do you handle it, especially because someone had written saying, I started to set boundaries in my relationship, and now my partner is saying I've changed.

• 43:07Sabrina Zohar?

  And I think there is a lot, right? If you, if you're doing it, especially in a relationship. So I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Well, if someone says to me, you've changed, I say, thank you for noticing.

• 43:19Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  I've been working on changing intentionally. So thank you. So again, if someone's trying to insult you, but the truth is, it's not insulting. What your partner is saying when they say you've changed is what they're really saying, the subtext is, is I feel threatened.

• 43:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Yep.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  I feel worried that you're changing, and perhaps you will no longer need me. Perhaps you will no longer love me. And so I think we can speak to, like, babe, you seem really threatened by these changes, and yet I need to assert myself because this is about my relationship with me. If I don't tell you the truth about how I feel, I will become resentful. I am becoming resentful. So I see that you are feeling resentful. I'm happy to work with a therapist if you want to do that, or we can talk more about it. Like, part of it is, someone says, you've changed. Don't let the conversation end there. Say, babe, you're hurling that like, like it's an insult.

• 44:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  But I've been working on myself, and I want to change. So you seem uncomfortable with the changes. I still love you. I'm still connected to you. You still matter to me. And it's my, my boundaries are my choice. They have to be. I'm the only one who can make them. You know what I mean? Or whatever. I don't, I don't know if that's the right conversation for that, but. We, back to the original part of the question, which is, what if people don't accept them? Right?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Your boundaries are not about what are they gonna do? Your boundaries are about what am I gonna do?

• 45:05Speaker 01

  So if the person says, I'm not accepting that you no longer wanna do all the cooking and the cleaning in the house. I'm not accepting that. You're like, okay, and I'm still not doing your laundry. Or I'm still not, I'm still hiring someone to clean the house, or whatever the thing is.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  They're really, if we are actually asserting our boundaries that are on our side of the street. It's not for them to accept or not. And then there are deal breakers, right? Let's talk about the difference between a preference and a deal breaker. I had a client who was married for a long time to someone, and they relapsed during the pandemic. They'd been, they'd never known this person drinking. They'd only ever known them sober. So they were together for 10 years. This became a deal breaker for her. And she's like, listen, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you that I fell in love with you and you were sober. We had an agreement that you would stay sober. You have now fallen off the wagon, and I'll, I'll give you a little bit of time to get back on.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  But if you don't, this will be the end of the relationship because I'm not interested in being married to an active alcoholic. That's not interesting to me. I don't even know who you are when you're drinking. So some people would say, oh, that's an ultimatum. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes there is an ultimatum. You were sober when we met, you're not now. It literally doesn't work for me. And I'm not saying, it's not the lever of like, this is how I'm gonna get you to get sober. This is what our agreement was. This is where we are now, and this is what I will be forced to do in the future if you don't get it together and. Like stand by the agreement, you know?

• 46:52Speaker 01

  So I think that we really need to be so clear that you have every right to your boundaries and to decide what you're going to do, but that it really isn't a lever of control for someone else. And sometimes deal breakers are just that. And you have every right to your deal breakers in relationships, whether other people understand them or not. Like you don't have to get it. You have to care about how I feel, just like I don't have to fully understand my husband in every moment of life. But if something's important to him, I make it important to me because he's important to me. I don't need, he doesn't need to build a case or write a fucking dissertation on why it's important to him.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  He just has to say, I really want to see this concert that I definitely do not want to see, but I will go see it. Just more Vivaldi or something like that. Just yay Carnegie Hall, whoever come. But if it's important to him, I'll make it important to me. Do you know what I mean?

• 47:51Sabrina Zohar?

  A hundred percent. It reminds me of like, I don't love the term, like I want unconditional love. I'm like, I want someone to love me, but to me it's not unconditional because it, we're in a contract negotiation here, right? Like I, I'm saying that I'm agreeing to you showing up like this. That example is perfect of like, I'm not going to have somebody that is a raging alcoholic that's running around the house doing this. That's not the agreement that we entered in. That doesn't mean, very different than like, if you don't marry me in two months, like that's it, I'm out. So you're going to lose me. Like whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not actually, that's you just want your way versus, hey, this is detrimental, right? This isn't healthy. This isn't helping anybody. I think that's such a big difference and I'm really, really grateful. First of all, Terry, thank you so much for even just being here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and thank you for being vulnerable and open with us.

• 48:36Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'm just really fucking grateful to have had you onto the podcast. It really means a lot to me.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Why, thanks for having me. And everyone, if you want to find out your boundary style, go to boundaryquiz.com.

• 48:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Perfect. We'll put that in the show notes. And Teri, where can people find you? Plug the books. Let us know every way that they can work with you, or even just listen to your content.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  All the things. I have a community that I really, really love. And you can find that at terricole.com/tcm for Terri Cole membership. It's super reasonable, but we meet weekly where I do live Q and As with people. So if you want your questions answered, there's so much with the community that you get so much for 59 bucks a month. I'm also supposed to hang out on Instagram. So I'm just at Terri Cole. I have a podcast I've had since 2015 that you're gonna be on, or well, we already recorded it, called The Terri Cole Show, where I talk about a lot of it, just mental health and love and relationships and boundaries and code of dependency, all the things. And I interview people as well.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  So I put out two episodes a week on that. And you can just find what I'm doing and upcoming retreats and all the things at terricole.com.

• 49:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Awesome. Teri, thank you so much again. And I'm just so fucking excited for you to be part of our community as well.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Yay. Thanks for having me, babe.