Gary Oldman, Vol. III

One of the all time greats, Gary Oldman, returns for another masterclass discussion of acting, Hogwarts houses, and TIPTOES. Plus SLOW HORSES, DRACULA, and so much more! #happysadconfused #joshhorowitz #garyoldman #slowhorses Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Josh Horowitz?

  Loyalty, hard work, patience, does that describe you?

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Loyalty?

• 0:04Josh Horowitz?

  Hard work, patience, fairness, dedication?

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would, yeah.

• 0:09Josh Horowitz?

  Gary Oldman is a Hufflepuff, everybody. It's official.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  I'm a Huffenpuff.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  What is it, he and a Huffenpuff? I'm in the, I'm in the bloody movies and I can't.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  I'm a Huffenpuff.

• 0:34Josh Horowitz?

  You're a Hufflepuff.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 0:42Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today, we have one of the all-time greats. Mr. Gary Oldman is back on the podcast where he belongs. And it is an epic night in Los Angeles to share with all of you. Thanks as always for tuning in, guys, for watching, for listening, however you're enjoying this episode of Happy, Sad, Confused.

• 1:03Josh Horowitz?

  Before we get to the main event, which is a really, really cool one, Gary Oldman. We don't have any upcoming events yet to announce. Stuff is always on the horizon, more to come. Watch this space and more importantly, check out our Patreon because that's where we put up all our announcements first and we have discount codes and merch and all that kind of fun stuff. Patreon.com/happysadconfused is your home for all things Happy Sad Confused. We just put out a big shipment, autographed posters for some of our wonderful patrons. So if you're interested in getting that kind of stuff and just more of what I do over here, check it out right now. Okay, so we're just gonna get right to it. The main event this week is Gary Oldman taped live in Los Angeles at the beautiful Fine Arts Theater in Beverly Hills.

• 1:46Josh Horowitz?

  You guys have heard me talking about wanting to go back to LA for a while. We did an event over a year ago with Tom Hiddleston at the same theater, sold it out then. And we really wrestled with who to get, when to get them, had to all line up, a thousand different things need to line up in the right way. And somehow this one came together and I'm so, so happy, relieved, thrilled, all the emotions that this one turned out as well as it did. I don't want to overhype this, but this is really one of the best episodes I think we've had of Happy, Sad, Confused. And that's saying a lot because the last episode with Gary Oldman, I think, was one of our all-time bests. And this one certainly sits on the shelf with

• 2:28Josh Horowitz?

  that one. He is, of course, a legend for a thousand different reasons, whether you love him from True Romance, the Batman films, Harry Potter films, The Professional, his Oscar-winning turn in The Darkest Hour. The man means so much to film fans, to actors, and now to see him in this latest stage of his career, doing so many cool things. So he has just come off the stage, we talk about this, his return to theater, after 37 years, he had not been on a stage, and returned back in the UK to do a play at Beckett's. He talks a lot about that in this one. But he's also, of course, going strong in Slow Horses, which is now

• 3:11Josh Horowitz?

  entering its fifth season. It actually announced its fifth season's premiere date the day we taped this in Los Angeles. It is September 24th, so mark your calendars. He earned an Emmy nomination for the role of Jackson Lamb last year. Hopefully, he'll get one again this year. Maybe he'll win. He's, I mean, he's the best. He truly is the best. And to hear him tell these stories in such a humble, fun way was just a delight. His family was there, his children were there, his wife was there, his manager and agent. That meant, honestly, a great deal to me, that it felt like the Oldman gang all came out to support

• 3:50Josh Horowitz?

  and just wanted to hear him tell stories in this way. So, yeah, I said I didn't want to overhype it, maybe I'm overhyping it, but you're not going to be disappointed. So many great stories in this. Yeah, from, we hit upon a lot of aspects of his career. Plus, it's a very, very funny conversation. It's all, there are a ton of laughs in this. Stay tuned for the Harry Potter portion of this is epic. That's all I'm gonna say. I'm just gonna say that now. The tiptoes portion of this, if you know, you know. Tiptoes, folks. I don't think Gary Oldman's ever talked about tiptoes, certainly not to this extent. A Happy, Sad, Confused exclusive. Yeah, so.

• 4:35Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you to everyone that came out in Los Angeles. We sold it out again, 400 strong at the Fine Arts Theater. We will be back in Los Angeles doing more. We're already talking about other events and hopefully bring Happy, Sad, Confused to other cities around the country and perhaps the world. We'll see. All right, here we go. Main event, I'm taking you now to the stage of the Fine Arts Theater in Beverly Hills with me and Gary Oldman. Enjoy. Hi, everybody. How's it going? Hi. Welcome. Hello, Los Angeles. It's been too long. My name's Josh Horowitz. Welcome to a live taping of Happy, Sad, Confused, my beloved podcast. Thank you so much for being here, guys.

• 5:19Josh Horowitz?

  This is so meaningful for me. I do a lot of these live events in New York, but very rarely do we get to do this in L.A. About a year ago, we sold out this theater for the great Tom Hiddleston. And now we are back and you guys have sold it out once again. Give yourselves a little pause. I am with 400 Gary Oldman obsessives just like myself, so welcome. This is gonna be such a fun night. You guys just saw an amazing, just one minute of a remarkable career. We all love and adore what Gary Oldman has contributed to screens, big and small. I don't need to list his amazing accomplishments. He's won every award under the sun and well-deservedly so.

• 6:01Josh Horowitz?

  You know, from Dracula, Stan's Field, Winston Churchill, and in recent years, adding to the canon in Slow Horses, everybody, Jackson Lamb. Come on. And we're also talking to him on a very special day. It's just been announced, September 24th, Slow Horses is coming back for a new season, guys. Good timing. And if that weren't enough, Mr. Oldman has just returned to the stage after decades. He just wrapped up an amazing run in York. And so there's a lot to talk about, needless to say. Are you ready for this? Woo! All right, guys. Thank you again for coming out. Please give it up for the one and only, the legend, Mr. Gary Oldman, everybody.

• 7:03Josh Horowitz?

  That's nice.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Lovely crap.

• 7:09Josh Horowitz?

  Gary, thanks so much for doing this again.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  You're welcome. Nice to see you again.

• 7:12Josh Horowitz?

  It's good to see you. We've had a couple of conversations. The beauty of Gary Oldman, though, is we could have ten more of these and we're just gonna scratch the surface of your amazing career. You've given us a great gift, sir. Can we start with the play? You just came offstage in York.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:28Josh Horowitz?

  When was the last time you did theatre work, Gary Oldman?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Thirty-seven years ago. Yeah.

• 7:34Josh Horowitz?

  So what's... Had you been noodling on this for a while? Had you been thinking about getting back on stage?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Well, I've always... I've often flirted with the idea of returning to the stage. Constantly. I read plays, I think about the theatre. And that's sort of where I started, where I came from. So I did eight, nine, ten years of theatre. And I was very fortunate in the beginning. I would do a film and a play, and a film and a play. So I did sit in there and see, and then I did a play.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  We did maybe a couple of plays, then I get pricked a couple of ears, and then I came back and did a play. And so it would work like that. So I was never very far away from the theatre. And then my career started to take off and I just got kidnapped. But the films... And then ten years go by, and then fifteen, and then twenty years, and then someone will say, "When did you last do a play?" And then you think and you go, "My God, it's twenty-five years, thirty years."

• 9:02Speaker 01

  And then you get to a point where you think, "I'm never gonna be able to do it." You know, it's been too long.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Um, anyway, I decided to do this play, went and had a ball. I loved, I loved it.

• 9:18Josh Horowitz?

  We should mention, this was just you on stage, this is Beckett, this is directed it. You went back to York where you started.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:26Josh Horowitz?

  So this is, I mean, you did it right, you did it in a very interesting, special way.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  There's the usual suspects, you know, when you, when you're gonna return to the stage and then you think, well, it's New York, or it's London, or it's the West End. And, um, and I thought it would be a nice thing to really give back to the place where I started. So, um, in nineteen seventy-nine, I went to York Theatre Royal and made my public, my professional public debut on, on that stage. And, um, so I thought it would be a nice thing to go back and return to where it all, to where it all began. And there's a lot of people that sort of talk about promoting provisional theatre.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Um, but, but, but they don't.

• 10:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right, the, the actual way to do it is to bring it to.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  It's to take it there, yeah. So it was lovely for, it was, it was nice for the, the theatre and the community in, in, in New York. So it, uh, it was very, very special. And a lot of my, my family who are here tonight, they came over and, uh, and saw it, yeah.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  And, um, and I'll, I've got, I've got the taste, I'll do more now.

• 10:54Josh Horowitz?

  Please.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I've got, I've got the flavour.

• 11:00Josh Horowitz?

  You got a New Yorker here, so I'd love to see you come by, anytime, open invitation, whatever you want.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  All right, lovely.

• 11:06Josh Horowitz?

  Have you ever experienced anything like stage fright back in the day or to this day on a set? Is there anything analogous to that for you?

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had stage fright on, um, uh, uh, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:24Josh Horowitz?

  Once you started, once you got on set.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  No, no, once I got on set, I was okay. It was the, it was the buildup to it. I'd never really experienced it. I mean, you know, in York, after thirty-seven years, I was actually chomping at the bit to do it. And, and, and you, I don't know whether it's nerves or adrenaline or whatever. It's excitement.

• 11:52Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  There's, there's a difference between being paralyzed with fear and, and which, which stage fright is really, in a, in a sense. And there's, and that, there's a difference between that and just being energized and, and excited to, to get out there.

• 12:19Josh Horowitz?

  And which was, which was it on Take or Tell or Soldier Spy that you experienced?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  It was bone crushing.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  I, I wouldn't want to experience it again. It, it was, I think what had happened with it is that most of the time, most of the roles I've played, I've, I've gone to sort of kicking and screaming.

• 12:51Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  And, oh, I can't do that, I'll never be able to do that. Or they should cast someone else. Or, you know, I could think of another actor who could play that role. And why are they thinking of me? And all of these sort of, the usual sort of insecurities and things that one sort of goes through. And I guess in a way you make an obstacle. You have to put an obstacle up because I've got to cause some drama.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  You know, I make it even, I've got to make it more challenging, even more difficult for myself. So a lot of the roles I've played have been roles that I've turned down and then have come back. So my process is turning something down. I think that's how I work.

• 13:36Josh Horowitz?

  And then your process is regretting it afterwards and saying, "I didn't do a good enough job."

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the other thing as well. So you can't win.

• 13:46Josh Horowitz?

  So the only happy times in the middle, basically.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  But I think what happened with Tika Taylor,

• 13:56Speaker 01

  I really did feel that this time,

• 14:01Speaker 01

  I get found out.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Because you're always waiting for the tap on the shoulder, you know. You're actually...

• 14:09Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks for trying. You can go back home now.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're a fraud. You know.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  And Alec Guinness had had such a huge success with it and was to many, and probably still is, the definitive smiling. And the ghost of Guinness really...

• 14:38Speaker 01

  It got into me. It got inside my head. And I thought, "I am really going to be found out and I'm going to fail miserably at this. And what have I done? You know, I've said yes to this thing and now I'm up against this legendary performance that I will invariably, undoubtedly be compared to." You know, so you're really sort of out on the wire with it. And it got to me to the point where I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep. I was in cold sweats. It was really quite terrifying.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  And then my producing partner over there, Doug, actually came to the set with me on the first day. And I was so uptight that I said to him for the first shot, the very first scene, which was actually with Tom Hardig.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Pretty good place to start.

• 15:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  And I said to Doug, Doug, come to the set. Let me go down on my own.

• 15:52Josh Horowitz?

  No one needs to see this.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  No, please, Doug. And actually, and I got on the set. And I looked around and I thought, Oh, I know where I am.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  What's all the fuss about? Like, and it, and it, it evaporated. It just sort of left me. So there was this gnaws build up to the point where I actually, at one point, considered not doing it and getting out of it. Now, obviously, I was, I was deep in it. And they were already shooting. And I, and it was my, my day on set was less than a week away. But it, it had crossed my mind that I, I need to just get on a plane and get out of here. You know, it's, you, you asked me about it.

• 16:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:48Josh Horowitz?

  That's what I wanted to hear. This is why I love talking to you, because not only are you the best actor on the planet, but you have such anxiety about it all that it's so relatable.

• 16:58Josh Horowitz?

  I need, I want a genius that is neurotic at the same time. That's what, you're my sweet spot, Gary.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you kind of, you, you, I mean, it's so, you just, you jump and sometimes it's, you know, this low. That's a lot of mediocre shit. You know, can't, you know, there's, there's, there's a couple of good ones. There's a couple of good ones.

• 17:25Josh Horowitz?

  OK, we're gonna get there.

• 17:34Speaker 03

  As wish lists grow, you know where to go. Head to Ulta Beauty. We have gifts they'll love from brands like Tato One and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. Shop beauty faves to give or keep from Shark Beauty, Sol de Janeiro and more. Not sure what they want? You can't go wrong with Baumann, Clinique or Redken. And don't forget to put yourself on the list. Book a salon moment or add a little more sparkle to your season. Shop holiday in-store or at Ulta.com. Ulta Beauty.

• 18:01Speaker 04

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 18:34Josh Horowitz?

  I would presume by now you feel very at home. It is a warm bath to be on the set of Slow Horses. This is your, this is your happy place. This show we've talked about before, you kind of helped manifest this with, with Doug. This happened, this is kind of a miracle of the show. By now, in season five and beyond, what does it feel like to be on the set of Slow Horses as Jackson Lang?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Oh, it's like being, it's, it's like being home, like being at home. Yeah. And in terms of the, the, the people on the show, not only, I think, is the riding very good, although the work is of a pedigree. That's very good. And Lang is a delicious, wonderful character. But what has made it the more, all the more special? And a highlight, I would say, really a highlight of my career, are the people.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  And now, we have the announcement of five coming out. So now we have, season five soon to arrive.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Makeup, hair, crew, down to clapper loader, if such a thing exists anymore. Camera operator, scenic painters. I mean, across the board, the people are absolutely just magic. There's not a wrongon, wrongon in the bunch. And the actors are just beautiful people, very talented and lovely to work with. So in that respect, it has been, I feel incredibly lucky. I just turned sixty-seven.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Looking good, man, looking good. I've just turned sixty-seven and I feel incredibly blessed that almost everything in my life right now is the best it's been. And with my family and my wife and, you know, the kids that have grown up and they're the good kids, which is the biggest accomplishment, I think.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  And it's so to land this role in this series with these people, it's phenomenal.

• 21:23Josh Horowitz?

  What does it mean to be number one on the whole sheet for you? You've been the lead in many of the projects, but to be number one on Soul of Horrors, how does that, how does your, what do you want to kind of imbue into that set?

• 21:37Speaker 01

  You get a very good table at restaurants. Very, I get it. Yeah, and they treat you nice at the airport.

• 21:49Josh Horowitz?

  But you've been on sets where the number one probably hasn't been a great human being that has set a vibe that wasn't fantastic and you've you've been number one yourself. I guess what's important for you in kind of how to, I don't know, spread a good vibe on a set of slow horses?

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Well, I think partly I'm I'm naturally curious, so I take an interest in what people are doing

• 22:17Speaker 01

  in any one given, you know, department.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  I'm working with younger people who are fantastic, but you've got to, if you're the, I don't know if you'd call it leadership, but if you are number one, then

• 22:39Speaker 01

  know the lines, know what you're doing, having done your work, get there early.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  All of those, all of those things I think are important and then that, and then that work ethic or attitude then will permeate down

• 23:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  through, through

• 23:06Speaker 01

  through just the cast and

• 23:12Speaker 01

  having

• 23:15Speaker 01

  respect what, what the other people are doing. It isn't just about you.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  You know, and sometimes actors, not that I particularly work with any, I haven't really worked with real divas as such. I worked with some interesting directors.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  But they're a whole different species.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  But I haven't worked with anyone that crazy as an actor. But you've...

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's showing an interest and a respect for what everyone else is doing.

• 24:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  But you just get some actors and you think it's all about me, it's all about me. Or their method, you know, quote unquote. And somehow that they make it all about them.

• 24:19Josh Horowitz?

  It's like a whole energy, it's about you, yeah.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  And it's a collaborative art form. And it has many, many moving parts. And you are just one part of it. Yes, at the end of the day, you're the face, let's say, up there on the screen. But there's a lot of people and a lot of work that go to achieving that end result.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  But I've always liked the crew. I've always sort of been... I've never been one for disappearing in the trailer.

• 25:03Josh Horowitz?

  Right, setting the boundaries. As you said, we're all in this together. Your job is pretty damn important too. If you're on set, your job is important too, creating what we're creating.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I know that some days, you know, they're dragging you out of the make-up chair because camera's ready and they're up against it. I get it. But sometimes they're under the impression that your process in the make-up chair will not take as long as it usually takes because the camera's ready.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  You go, no magic.

• 25:48Josh Horowitz?

  How that works.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, the process is the same. Whether the camera's ready or not. And then, so you then, you've got to, you've got to be the 300-pound gorilla or the person that says, no, the makeup person needs the time. Because it still takes the time it takes. Regardless of whether you want to shave half an hour off it and your camera's ready. You know, you've, you've got to be, it's, it's, it's, it's benign dictatorship. It's, I don't know. It's, you've got to be, you've got to be the leader,

• 26:34Speaker 01

  but you've got to be sensitive to the people. You've, you know, it's, it can, it's interesting.

• 26:42Josh Horowitz?

  You talk about makeup. I mean, there is a kind of like a karmic balance that has been achieved by your portraying Jackson Lamb after so many roles that required so much, so much perspective. And obviously, there's still makeup, a lot of makeup and important stuff to do to transform you into Jackson. But it's not Churchill, it's not Dracula, it's not this kind of thing. Um, do you still, do you?

• 27:07Josh Horowitz?

  What was that? There it is.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  I spent a lot of money doing that.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  That's five seasons.

• 27:22Josh Horowitz?

  I do feel like we have to let the casting directors know that you don't look like Jackson Lamb. You look like, like you can clean yourself up. You can be the leading man, the romantic hero.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 27:34Josh Horowitz?

  I just want to make sure you got work after Slow horses.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's gonna end, isn't it?

• 27:41Josh Horowitz?

  Don't break our hearts.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  No, it'll end at some point. So, um, it's, well, of course, you...

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Well, I did. What happened was, I did Mank. And be- and, I like, I like Mank. I think that's a good fit. And I put on a few pounds for, for Mank. And then this followed hard upon. And he's an alcoholic, he's, he eats badly. He doesn't bathe much. He's, you know, all of those names. And I, you know, he's a smoker, he's a drinker, doesn't exercise, eats all the wrong food. And I thought, well, why don't I just throw in a few more pounds?

• 28:36Speaker 01

  You know, as hard as it is, it's so hard.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Everybody feel for Gary. You know, all those french fries and those hamburgers. It's so hard.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  And that chocolate cake and ice cream. Pasta, it's just, anyway. I'm seeing you in your happy place.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  So I thought, well, I'll pack on a few more pounds. And that'd be good, you know. Maybe you should do Churchill now, just keep going, the other direction. Yeah, do the, yeah, the whole thing with Stalin and Roosevelt, you know, do the, yeah, follow, follow it up with that. Anyway, I, but of course, when you, you get to a certain age, it's, I'm thinking of doing this chair yoga. Have you seen this chair yoga?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Go on. Well, you can exercise, but you get to sit down. I love the idea of that.

• 29:47Josh Horowitz?

  You need to come out with your own like a instructional video. It's gonna be in your career.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:52Josh Horowitz?

  You're an old ministerial guy, but...

• 29:54Speaker 01

  But you get to a certain age and then you can't. You can't lose it. You can't lose it as easily as you used to be, you know, when you were younger. Yeah.

• 30:05Josh Horowitz?

  I don't want you to nod you gave me like you know. What you were saying, Tom, you know.

• 30:11Josh Horowitz?

  Can you tell by now when a fan approaches what they're gonna talk to you about? Like, do you have a read on like, alright, I think I know what kind of conversation we're about to have?

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Fifth element.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  I know it's gonna be either, it's gonna be either the fifth element.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  The professional.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah? Uh... What's the other one that's really, um... What's the other one that's...

• 30:47Josh Horowitz?

  You were Harry Potter, maybe that comes up, yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Harry Potter?

• 30:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  And Batman.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, again...

• 30:58Josh Horowitz?

  Has anyone ever screamed everyone at you in public?

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:03Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:04Josh Horowitz?

  Like, that was really startling.

• 31:08Josh Horowitz?

  And I like asked to like audition for it.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  It's, it's, what's strange is, is that it's become this sort of, um... Iconic kind of line. This... And it was all done as a joke. And that was, that was the thing. I played the scene. And then I thought, I had a relationship with Luke. Luke Bussell was this... He'd kind of... Mad in a way. I mean, we were shooting on film. And then he would say to me, "Okay, do the scene again, but now do it as Robert De Niro."

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Or do it as, and he would shoot it for kicks.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  And he's archived.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  So we had a fun kind of relationship. And I went to the sound guy. I said to Luke, I just want to do one more, let me do one more. And I went to the sound guy and I said, I'm gonna be really loud, so be care, you know. And bring me everyone, you know, everyone, and I just did it as a joke to make Luke laugh. There was no...

• 32:25Josh Horowitz?

  Were you upset when you found out it was in the film? That you're like...

• 32:28Speaker 01

  I was a little shocked when I saw it in the film, yeah. It was just me fooling around.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  With intensity, with feeling.

• 32:48Josh Horowitz?

  Once more with feeling, Gary.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, yeah, and yet it's become this, become this line now.

• 32:57Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have... I apologize, I know we do greatest hits and I'm trying to like, I need to hit some of these points because I love these films. Bram Stoker's Dracula, the challenge of that film.

• 33:09Josh Horowitz?

  Did you feel the pressure on that? I mean, that was a big film, that was a much anticipated film. It's copal who I know you revere. Did you feel the pressure at the time of carrying that weight of that film?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny you mention that. The writer of Dracula is here tonight, Mr. Hart, where are you?

• 33:29Josh Horowitz?

  James Hart? Oh my gosh!

• 33:34Josh Horowitz?

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 33:39Josh Horowitz?

  We're gonna talk hook later too, come on up. This guy's a great screenwriter, amazing.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  No, I didn't feel, I mean, everyone in his, the world in its mother had played Dracula. But I felt...

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Well, let's put it this way, I didn't need to play Dracula.

• 34:02Josh Horowitz?

  We'd seen some great Adalos.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  And I had never even been on my radar to do it, or even consider it, think about it.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  But it was Coppola. And I thought that he would do something very interesting with it. And so I felt carried. I didn't feel, um, that, oh, I'm up against Bala Lugosi or Christopher Lee. And I felt safe, I felt carried by the master, Coppola, you know? And he was gonna do something, I think he was gonna do something interesting with it. And to Jim's credit, the script was beautiful.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  And it's different, we were looking at it, we were looking at this very old story. Familiar story, from just a different angle, different perspective.

• 35:11Josh Horowitz?

  Did you have a favorite, I mean, part of the fun of that film for you as an actor, I would imagine, outside of the prosthetics, which must have been quite daunting, but like, you get to play him as this kind of romantic warrior in that opening prologue as the, you know, the, almost like this rock star Dracula walking around London. This full-on beast of a monster. Did you have a favorite incarnation of Dracula you got to do?

• 35:37Speaker 01

  The older Dracula.

• 35:40Josh Horowitz?

  In the castle.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like, yeah, I like the sort of, I like your vibe.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Mr. High.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  But I got to say, I was telling, actually, I was telling this story.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  A few hours ago.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  I remember exactly where I was when I read the script. And I was in the trailer in a lunch break, or an extended lunch break, on JFK. And I was about to read the script and audition for Francis. And

• 36:32Speaker 01

  the thing I remember most vividly was, "I've crossed oceans of time to find you." And I thought,

• 36:42Speaker 01

  "God, I'd really like to say that line." Isn't it like, wouldn't you like that, wouldn't you like to say that to someone? You know? So that was the thing, the zinger. And I had an instinct or feeling for it. But I could hear, and also I could hear the voice, but as, as yet could not physically do it. But I heard that voice of Dracula.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  And then went away and worked on it and tried to physically achieve the sound that I'd heard in my head.

• 37:27Josh Horowitz?

  Did what eventually come out, is that what was in your head when you arrived there?

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  It was just a little hard, yeah, that's, I can't even do it now. I mean, I've worked on it. I've worked on it for, for, for a very long time. I've worked with an opera singer on the, on the, on the, on the sound. And I tried to lower, lower my voice by almost an octave, yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  But it was just

• 38:05Speaker 01

  it, working for him, that was the...

• 38:13Speaker 01

  As you get older, I, for me, it's the experience, it's the journey and not the end result. When you're younger, you're desperate for something to be good because you want people to see it and then it will lead to the next part, or you say, oh, I hope it's good because then I'll get.

• 38:37Josh Horowitz?

  I'll get to this next level, like.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  You get, yeah, I'm gonna get to the next level. And I think as you get older, it's about, um, I'm, look, I'm happy that Slow Horses has become a success and, and, um, and as long as Apple keep writing the checks and keep, you know, and people wanna see the show, then we'll keep making it, you know. But what I've enjoyed, what I take away from it the most is being there in the moment on the set with those people. And I think, I think Dracula was, I, I can't remember, maybe it had a mixed reception, I'm

• 39:25Speaker 01

  not sure, I think it was, I, it may be fifty fifty or sixty forty, but, um, what I take away from it is having the opportunity to have worked Coppola, who was arguably, I mean, in my, well, in my humble opinion, um, one of the greatest, if not the greatest living American director. I just think, when you look at them, when you look at the work, if you, if you had, honestly, if you had, if someone said to you, what are your ten, your ten best movies? If you had to make a list of your ten best movies, I think three of them on my list would be Coppola.

• 40:09Josh Horowitz?

  Two Godfathers and a Conversation, Apocalypse Now.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Conversation.

• 40:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Godfather Part Two.

• 40:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Apocalypse Now.

• 40:20Josh Horowitz?

  Hard to draw that line.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 40:24Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I wanna talk a bit about, you've obviously collaborated a lot with Christopher Nolan. Talk to me a little bit about what inspired your Jim Gordon. Did you, did Chris?

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Jet lag.

• 40:39Josh Horowitz?

  Unexpected, but I'll take it.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Well, when we went back to the comic books, you know, real going back to it as Chris wanted to, you know, and infuse it with some a spirit of the comic book, of the original story, and a bit of realism, a bit of something, you know. It had got to, I think Batman at that point had got to a point that was...

• 41:15Josh Horowitz?

  There was Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze. We had gone too far. We went too far.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really ridiculous.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  And, um...

• 41:29Speaker 01

  And so, but what happened was there's a sort of, you're a policeman who is sort of up against it. And your best efforts can't corral the chaos.

• 41:50Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  So there's a well weariness to Jim Gordon. And I have things at home, you know, if you follow the legend or something.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  And so for the first Batman, I was, I was living here in Los Angeles. I was a single dad. And I didn't really want to leave the kids for too long. But the first Batman was shooting in England, in London, which was doubling as Gotham. They did a pretty good job.

• 42:37Josh Horowitz?

  I'd say, yeah.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  They did a pretty good job. So we're shooting in England and I said to Chris, "Would it be okay, you know, I'll fly in, I'll shoot, and then fly back?" And if there's anything, back then, well, Chris now, he still shoots some film, but back then it was on film. And I said, you know, if there's anything wrong with the dailies, or there's a scratch on the neck, or you know where I am, I'll be in the car on my way to the airport. And I'll just turn around and come back. But, you know, if everything's cool, you know where I'll be. I'll get in the car, I'll go to the airport, I'll fly home.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  And then I'll see you Thursday, or whatever.

• 43:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, I think I ended up doing twenty-seven round trips on the first Batman.

• 43:38Josh Horowitz?

  Got platinum status on the, they're on the first.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  United Airways. And so I'd go home for two days, see the kids, fly back, work three days, go home, be home for three days. I'd fly to London and do one shot. And then get on the plane the next morning and come back.

• 44:02Josh Horowitz?

  So real jet lag helped the world weariness, basically?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  And this, this was, I'm being somewhat, I'm being silly, but you know, there's a sort of world weariness to him. And so I embraced the, that, you know, the feeling that you have when you're going back and forth, or you've been on a long flight. You know, I just thought, I can actually use this to my advantage. And so.

• 44:39Josh Horowitz?

  It worked out, yeah.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  But the scripts are, this is the thing, when people ask you about doing research or working outside of the script. If you, if you're, if you're working with good writing.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  The psychological, the psychology of it, emotional, it's in the script. And it's a map of the world. It's a map of your world that you're gonna inhabit, whether it's Dracula or slow horses, yeah. So when you're working with really, really good writing, it's all there for you. It's in the text. And, uh... So I don't always feel such a need

• 45:40Speaker 01

  to go beyond what is, what is there. If, if the writing, when you start breaking a sweat and then you're work, and I've done a few of those, you're working far too hard. And you're thinking, I'm trying to sort of, you know, and you're, and you're in a situation where you're, you're trying to elevate the, the, the text. You're working to lift it. Whereas good writing, you're surfing it. That's, that, that's, that's the, that's the way I think I can...

• 46:17Josh Horowitz?

  That makes sense.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Can describe it.

• 46:19Josh Horowitz?

  Must be a nice feeling when it feels like...

• 46:21Speaker 01

  When it, when, yeah, and you know, you, you, you just, you instinctively, you, you, you know that you're working with someone who knows what they're, what they're doing as a writer. Um, and then, and then of course, the fun part of it is that for something like Darkest Hour, there's a hundred books you can read. There's tons of footage. Um, and then that plays to your advantage because it's, because it's there. And you're also playing someone who is incredibly iconic. That, um, I mean, he knew about marketing

• 47:04Speaker 01

  and all of that long, long before it was a thing. You know, with the silhouette of the, the Homburg and the cigar. Um, and you just look at that image and you go, it's Churchill.

• 47:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  You know, he knew about self-promotion.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  So that's, but that's just, that's a happy accident in a way. You know, you led a role like that and it just so happens to come with all these supplements. You know, you go, well, there's this book and there's this and there's this documentary. And so that's, that's part of, part of it. But you can't beat good writing. That's the, that's, that's the thing. And, and you don't then, I personally don't preconceive.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  You have a feeling about it. And you go in not knowing if you'll be able to even do it. You know, it may, it could be disastrous. You could fail. But you go in and then let instinct and it's, for me, anyway, I think it's all about, ultimately, it's about instinct, it's intuition. I think you can hone intuition and instinct, but you can't teach it and give it to someone. You can learn voice, you can learn movement, you can learn how to sword fight, you can learn kung fu, you can learn many, many things.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  And you can work in acting class and work on text. But instinct is...

• 49:03Josh Horowitz?

  Well, because that's what's going to serve you on set. You can do all your homework, you can create the greatest performance in your living room. But until you have the variables of a live set and your co-stars, it's not going to be truly...

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you could, I mean, if you want, you could go and learn about the history of Denmark. And then, you know, on the opening night, you're going to stand there and say to be or not to be. And I don't, I don't know if your, your history of Denmark's going to help you. To be honest.

• 49:40Josh Horowitz?

  Probably not, probably not. There will not be a quiz at the end of the evening.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  As wish lists grow, you know where to go. Head to Ulta Beauty. We have gifts they'll love from brands like Tato One and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. Shop beauty faves to give or keep from Shark Beauty, Sol de Janeiro and more. Not sure what they want? You can't go wrong with Baumann, Clinique or Redken. And don't forget to put yourself on the list. Book a salon moment or add a little more sparkle to your season. Shop holiday in-store or at Ulta.com. Ulta Beauty.

• 50:20Speaker 04

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 50:53Josh Horowitz?

  The last time we chatted about Harry Potter and I asked you about Sirius, you said your work was mediocre and the internet really reacted. So since then, I've talked to Dan Radcliffe and he said, on his last day of shooting with you, you came up to him and said, "Was I a good Sirius?" Like you asked him, "Did I do the job?"

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Sounds like me, yeah.

• 51:19Josh Horowitz?

  Is that part and parcel? Was that unique to that role or is that something that often happens at the end of a shoot?

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Oh, I'll do that. I'll do that. I mean, I mean, I, I mean, I, I mean, I won an Oscar and two years later I said to my wife, "Was he good as Churchill?" I was like, "Yeah."

• 51:42Speaker 01

  I mean, not that that's the mark of it.

• 51:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right, that should give you a free pass. That should let you not worry.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  It should let you not worry, but I think that's... I mean, that's what keeps... I think that's in part what keeps the work fresh, what keeps you going. If you were self-satisfied and sitting there on your, you know, thinking... And there are some people that think they're shit, don't they?

• 52:22Josh Horowitz?

  They're generally a shittier, in my opinion, those folks.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Do you know the nicest people I've... The nicest people I've worked with are often the most talented and the most successful. It's always the ones... They're tricky. They're tricky.

• 52:44Josh Horowitz?

  Compensating a little bit, right?

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I always find, yeah. No, it's just part of my make-up, I think. But my wife's accepted it now. It's... You've got a question and I sometimes... Like I say, I've got to... I have to create some obstacles, I think, to motivate me to do it. And then I'm rehearsing, you know, the play and then I'm going, "Am I going to be any good? Is this going to be... Is this a folly?

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Is this just the stupidest idea I've ever had to just go back on the stage?"

• 53:36Josh Horowitz?

  Have you kept a diary? It sounds like it would be very depressing to read your entries about all of your work.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it'd be... God, it would be so dark.

• 53:49Josh Horowitz?

  Like, this actor must suck. You're reading the work, and then you see the work, and you're like, wait.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  I just think, you know, a healthy dose of it is good. You don't want to be so racked with insecurity and fear and all of that, that it then straitjackets you and cripples you. I'm not, I'm just saying, it's a healthy dose of questioning. And, you know, that's that thing of what are you most proud of? Next year's work.

• 54:23Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Yeah.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  That's how I sort of look at it.

• 54:30Josh Horowitz?

  Here's a stupid Harry Potter question. Have you ever sorted yourself into a Harry Potter house? Do you know what house you'd be in?

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Have I ever won?

• 54:38Josh Horowitz?

  Sorted yourself. You know, like, there's Hufflepuff and Gryffindor, Slytherin. Do you know what house you'd be in?

• 54:45Speaker 01

  I have no idea.

• 54:48Josh Horowitz?

  What do we think? What do we think Gary Oldman would do? Here are some attributes. Loyalty, hard work, patience, does that describe you?

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Loyalty?

• 54:59Josh Horowitz?

  Hard work, patience, fairness, dedication?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would, yeah.

• 55:04Josh Horowitz?

  Gary Oldman is a Hufflepuff, everybody. It's official.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  I'm a Huffenpuff.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  What is it, he and a Huffenpuff? I'm in the bloody movies and I can't...

• 55:28Speaker 01

  I'm a Huffenpuff.

• 55:29Josh Horowitz?

  You're a Hufflepuff.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  A Hufflepuff.

• 55:30Josh Horowitz?

  A Hufflepuff. We can do this all night if you want.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  I had no idea I was, I had no idea I was a Huffenpuff.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Have you ever huffled your puff?

• 55:43Josh Horowitz?

  There are children here tonight, Gary.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  That's funny. Okay, so that's... yeah, that was...

• 55:50Josh Horowitz?

  That's a good learning we had all together tonight. Have you ever played Call of Duty?

• 55:57Josh Horowitz?

  Or only inhabited the character in Call of Duty?

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Well, my memory of... The real... only memory of Call of Duty is just going into a booth and screaming your head off. Which they called Battle Chatter.

• 56:22Josh Horowitz?

  A polite way of calling it.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  So you've got all the variables. You can go this way and there's a sniper. The tank. And then if you go left, there's... so you have to give them everything. Everything.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  But I did... but the first... one of the first ones I did... Oh, the very first one I did, I think Keith O'Sullivan was one of the characters in it. And he came out of the booth and he went, "Man." He said, "I haven't screamed so much since I was married."

• 57:04Josh Horowitz?

  Good one.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Good one. No, I've never... I've tried to play it.

• 57:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  No, I can't do the video. I mean, honestly and truly. I, for the years, I had a VCR that was flashing 12 o'clock.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  I wouldn't know how... I would not know how to program a thing and I can't do that thing. One of my sons is there, Gully. And he, um... Yep, you're pretty handy, aren't you, the guy? Yeah. Yeah, I'm not.

• 57:44Josh Horowitz?

  But you're a hufflepuff at least, we know that.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a hufflepuff.

• 57:53Josh Horowitz?

  I feel like...

• 57:54Speaker 01

  You've got to do that with a... You need a voice, don't you, for...

• 57:58Josh Horowitz?

  I'm a hufflepuff.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  I'm a hufflepuff.

• 58:11Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 58:15Josh Horowitz?

  What do I do with that? Okay, so...

• 58:21Josh Horowitz?

  Tom Hanks says that he's made only four, three or four, good films in his career. So we've kind of had, danced around this conversation of kind of like self-flagellation a little bit about your work. When you look at the body of work, you're separating yourself, hopefully, from the actual films.

• 58:37Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know, what's the canon? What's like the Mount Rushmore? What's the, what are the films that you put on a pedestal that you've made?

• 58:52Josh Horowitz?

  Put it another way, I can put it to you this way. If this film comes on TV, tell me if you watch it or not. You skip it, or you watch it? How about that? JFK comes on, would you stop and watch?

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, JFK, yeah, I'd stop and watch. Yeah.

• 59:07Josh Horowitz?

  True Romance.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 59:13Josh Horowitz?

  Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy?

• 59:16Josh Horowitz?

  For the reasons discussed, maybe not, or?

• 59:18Speaker 01

  No, no, no, good, good picture.

• 59:20Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a good picture.

• 59:23Josh Horowitz?

  The Fifth Element. We love it, Gary. We all love it.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Well, let's put it this way. If I was watching it with my wife, Giselle, we'd probably, we'd probably stick around.

• 59:38Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And she has convinced me that it's a better film than I think it is.

• 59:47Josh Horowitz?

  Agreed.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, all I take away from that, really, is I'm contaminated because I was the one who had that haircut.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  And I was the one who was wearing rubber. So, others could experience it in a sort of...

• 1:00:10Josh Horowitz?

  You had a very unique experience.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  I get a little triggered.

• 1:00:12Josh Horowitz?

  I get it, no, it makes sense. This makes sense.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  When I see it, you know, and I go back to that place of Jean-Paul Gaultier and rubber, which Bruce didn't like either. You know that orange vest that he wears in it? He hated it.

• 1:00:36Josh Horowitz?

  Tiptoes comes on, what do you do?

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  I've never seen it.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  I wouldn't...

• 1:00:46Josh Horowitz?

  It's a film.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Is anyone familiar with Tiptoes?

• 1:00:52Josh Horowitz?

  Oh yeah, the internet knows, yeah.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Tiptoes, it's an interesting... It's an interesting thing because I think I'm right in saying that it was...

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Was it an actor's strike? Or a writer's... It was an actor's strike. And was I living in that rental underneath the Hollywood sign? This is... Yeah.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  And I had gone through...

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  I was... I'd been very honest with you. I was in... I'd gone through a divorce and a nasty thing with a contractor.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  And I... I mean, I was in Hollywood.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  I ended up in California, in LA.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Forty-two years old, single dad. And I was broke.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  And ironically, I was living under the Hollywood sign.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  And I was living in this rental, and we had no furniture. Thank God for Ikea.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Do you remember, Goldie, that little green chair? And I managed somehow to put bunk beds together.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  And the living room was a TV and a couple of cushions. And no dining table or anything like that. And it was a bit of a rough time. And then on top of that, I hadn't worked for 23 months or more. And that's when we got rid of CIA. And I said, "I'm leaving." And they said, "Why? Why are you leaving?" And I said, "Well, because I haven't had a joke for two years." That's maybe why I'm leaving.

• 1:03:10Josh Horowitz?

  Call me crazy, but...

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Call me crazy. And so it was a bit of a rough, a rough time. And I needed to pay some bills and I needed some money. And it was an actor's strike on top of it, which was like a double whammy on top of it. You know, not poor me, poor me. For everyone, it was a terrible time. And then this film came along, this crazy idea from this director, that I would play a little person. And I would play Matthew McConaughey's brother. Well, there were several things.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  First of all, I got locked in to doing a voice like that because I had to sound like, I had to sound like Matthew. So we were brothers, so somehow I had to sound like Matthew. So that was, that was that. And then I'm on my knees with a hump. And desperate measures, desperate times, desperate...

• 1:04:32Josh Horowitz?

  I had a feeling a bad contractor was related somehow to tiptoes in some way.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I needed to work. And it was a crazy, a crazy idea. But would I do it now?

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Well, now I'm sixty-seven. Partly I wouldn't do it now is because if I get down on my knees, it's very hard to get back up. I have to get back up. No, but, um, back then, also, there was no real backlash. There was, um, Peter, Peter.

• 1:05:18Josh Horowitz?

  Peter Dinklage.

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  Peter Dinklage. We got on famously and, and in a way, if you look at it in a positive way, um, at its heart.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  But if I look at it positively, it was, I, I really, I helped greenlight the film. So it's my film.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  I helped greenlight the film and that meant work for all those other little people in, who were in the, who were in the movie. So it was, it was, it was a good thing in that, in that, in that regard because they were all going through the same thing I was going through. You know, with, with no work, um, but it was, um, it was, it's a misfire, to be sure.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  It's a misfire. Not one I, not one I talk about. I'm so glad you brought it up.

• 1:06:21Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, I'm so sorry I brought it up and I'm so happy I brought it up.

• 1:06:30Josh Horowitz?

  We had such a good run, Gary.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  Well, come on, cause it's the last time now.

• 1:06:37Josh Horowitz?

  I'm gonna rebound with this. Let me read you.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  Rebound with something, please.

• 1:06:42Josh Horowitz?

  You're a hufflepuff, remember that. We had good times with that.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  I'm a hufflepuff.

• 1:06:52Josh Horowitz?

  You know what you mean to other actors. Here are just a few things that folks have said. Prepare yourself. Gary Oldman is hands down the greatest actor that's ever lived, full stop. That's Tom Hardy. Jessica Chastain says Gary Oldman is who we all want to be when we grow up as actors. Daniel Radcliffe, he's one of the most brilliant generous actors I've ever worked with. I was terrified to work with him and he turned out to be the kindest person on that set. Colin Farrell told me this actually, Gary Oldman meant everything to me as a young actor. I don't think I'd have pursued the career the way I did without watching him in Sid and Nancy and State of Grace.

• 1:07:39Josh Horowitz?

  What do you, I mean, you've heard these things before, I'm sure these actors have said this to you. What do you, what do you tell them? What do you, I'm sure they're looking to you for some wisdom. What do you say when they ask you for the secret code to a life well-lived as an actor?

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  When I worked, when I worked on The Tinker Tailor's Subtle Spy, I, one of my heroes was John Hurt. And I'd been, yeah. And I watched John many, for many years. And I met John on the set and I remember it very, very vividly. He was outside in a car park, outside the trailer, having a chat with someone. And I remember the car coming around, pulling into the car park and I could see him from the window, from, from my, from the car window.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  And I thought, oh, you know, like I got sort of like fanboy. It was like, you know, and I was so thrilled to work with him and so.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  You know, and he told, he was a great raconteur, told amazing, amazing stories. And so it was a real, a real gift to, to have worked with him. And I've worked with some, I've been lucky, I've worked with some very very talented people. Um, including Tom Hardy, who you mentioned, who is, have you seen Mob Land? Yeah. I mean fabulous in it, fucking, I think he's fantastic in it. Um, and I've worked with Christian Bale, and I've met a lot of really talented, talented people over the years, different actors that I've worked with.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  But John always talks about being a link in a chain. Right. And, uh, I think it's, I, I like watching good acting, you know, um. I like sitting there sometimes watching an actor and thinking, damn, I couldn't do that. Like, what, what they're doing is really amazing. And it's a younger generation of people that come along, and in a way, it's like what John says, you're just the link in the chain. You know, I'm standing on the shoulders of people that went before me, that I admire, who were heroes of mine.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Um, it is flattering and what a beautiful to, to hear that and to, you know, inspire in a way. Yeah. The, the next, uh, generation of people that are coming through. Um, the secret to it is, um, there is none. I think luck is plays a huge part, being I appeared, I came onto the scene at a certain time, in a certain era.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Was fortunate to do Sid and Nancy and Prick up your ears back to back. Literally, and that was, it wasn't engineered, but in a way, it was like a showreel. I could be a punk rocker and I can play a homosexual playwright. And so that was just, that's luck.

• 1:11:41Josh Horowitz?

  It was meeting the moment, let's be fair.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  But you take the, but then you have the opportunity and it's grasping the opportunity. When the opportunity comes along, then you have to give it your full commitment. But, you know, those people you mentioned are successful. But I often say to acting students or people that want to get into it.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  It's, if you've got a plan B.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  You know, you've got to really want to, it's got to be in your DNA, it's got to be in your cells. Because I have been lucky the most. But I've had those, I've had those periods where I've auditioned and get something, you get rejected and you've got to have a tough skin. You've got to be able to just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, have some faith that you, that what you, that you can contribute, that you have something. And you keep just going forward.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  And often, and it is what I call, it's going back on stage after 37 years. Move towards the fear.

• 1:13:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  Go to the, you've got to go to those, that otherwise you're, it'll suffocate you. You've got to go out on the wire.

• 1:13:24Josh Horowitz?

  What is, so we have more Slow Horses, September 24th. I'm going to remind the folks, is the new season, you're excited about season five? Anything we should tease specifically about this season? Or we'll just leave them, leave them hanging, Gary?

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  Let me think, season five.

• 1:13:40Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you shoot like six seasons, you probably shot 18 seasons already.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  A season, I'm trying to think now, season five.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Oh, I could give you this, Ho has a girlfriend.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  But someone is trying to kill him.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Are they related?

• 1:14:09Speaker 05

  There he is.

• 1:14:16Josh Horowitz?

  So you went towards the fear of returning to the stage. What is, I mean, what are you looking for, for next? I mean, you have more work to do on Slow Horses, but is there a kind of experience, a kind of filmmaker, a kind of role you're looking for right now?

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Well, I had a nice, I did, I did, I've had, I've had very good experience with most directors. I particularly enjoyed working with Soderbergh. He did have a lot of fun with Steven. Yeah, and I would, I did, well, one of my wishes came true, because I got to work with Sorrentino. And, yeah, and he's just, and he didn't disappoint.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  I found he was a beautiful man and wonderful, wonderful director.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  I've said this before, I've done it work with Paul Thomas Anderson.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  But most of the career has been what, I mean, I know that my agent and manager over there, they go behind the scenes and work, you know, they're like a hand working a ventriloquist.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  I know there's some shenanigans that go on that they don't invite, they always say to me, "Don't talk about the surgery in front of the patient."

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  And the patient. So I know that's a skoduggery going on up there, behind the curtain, but,

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  but for the most part, it's not engineered or...

• 1:16:14Josh Horowitz?

  That's the illusion everyone thinks, that you control anything.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, a script comes in and comes across the desk and you're intrigued and you read it and some, a lot are terrible. And then you get something and you go, the writing and who's doing it and, you know.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  For instance, True Romance, I met, I met Tony Scott, God bless him, Tony.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  I met him and I hadn't read the script and he literally said to me,

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  he was wearing a baseball cap and those pink shorts that he used to wear, big cigar. And he said to me, "I'm no good at telling you the plot or the story." And he said, "Look, he's a pimp." He's a pimp who thinks he's black.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  And I said, "I'll do it."

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Um, and, um, uh... Mason Verger in Hannibal. I, I read about, I read that character. That creepy, creepy character. And, and I got a whisper that Ridley was thinking about using a puppet, or an animatronic puppet, to play Mason Verger. I thought, "That's, that's, that's, that's not one of Ridley's..."

• 1:17:59Josh Horowitz?

  One of his rare misfire ideas, yeah.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's done some great stuff, but...

• 1:18:04Josh Horowitz?

  Ninety-nine percent of the time.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, not a puppet to play the thing. And so, I called him up, and we had a chat on the phone. And at the end of it, he said, "Great, great, all right. Well, my people will speak to your people." Um, and I remembered actually calling Doug and said, "I've just got off the phone with Ridley Scott. I think he's offered me the part." And he had.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  It, it comes in all ways, in all shapes and sizes. And sometimes it's a script that you wanna chase, and that the team then will chase or fight for your corner. Um, uh, other times, it's an offer that just comes in. Um, or a weird conversation with a Tony Scott, or it seems to be with Scott Brothers that like to just sort of hang it out on the spot.

• 1:19:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  But, um, yeah, it's, it's...

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  It's like air. You, you can't... It just sort of happens a certain way. And I'm, and I've had my, I've had more than my fair share of good fortune, so...

• 1:19:19Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I'm gonna go back to my hotel room and work on my Hufflepuff one-man show script. And get it, send it your way.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  And remember the voice. You gotta... The voice.

• 1:19:29Speaker 05

  I'm a, I'm a Hufflepuff.

• 1:19:35Josh Horowitz?

  That's an Academy Award winner for you right there. Spread the good word, folks. September 24th is the date for the next season of Slow Horses, and it sounds like there might be much more after that. Gary, thank you so much for the time, as always. You're the best. Thank you all for coming out, LA. You're the best. Have a great night.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.