#96 Col. John Alexander - Military Applications of the Paranormal

Col. John Alexander is a former Army Special Forces Commander with an impeccable career in leadership across multiple agencies and programs within the U. S. intelligence community. Alexander lead Special Forces teams as an Officer during the Vietnam War. He would later serve as the Chief of Human Technology at INSCOM and Army Inspector General. Alexander's work inspired and was heavily featured in the book and adapted film "Men Who Stare at Goats." He is widely credited with leading the way in researching non-lethal weapons and military applications of the paranormal. In this episode, Alexander recounts his experience in Vietnam and the brutality of jungle warfare. Through his experience, he began to see the power of coincidence and intuition. This led him to pursue greater knowledge via the Army Intelligence and Security Command. It was there he helped transform the United State's approach to the paranormal. Post retirement, Alexander became the Program Manager for Non-Lethal Defense at Los Alamos National Laboratory–the same lab responsible for the creation of the Atomic Bomb. Today, he is a successful Author and continues his work as a researcher. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://shopify.com/shawn https://babbel.com/srs https://meetfabric.com/shawn https://moinkbox.com/shawn https://hvmn.com/shawn https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Col. John Alexander Links: Books - https://b.link/b18rv35v Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

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  On October 2nd.

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• 0:53Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

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  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:00Shawn Ryan?

  Hey, everybody. I just want to kick this introduction off and say thank you.

• 1:07Shawn Ryan?

  You have helped me develop what I consider my gift. Telling these stories, bringing light to darkness. And it's just been a real honor to be able to do it. And if it wasn't for your encouragement, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have the opportunity that I've been given. And I love you guys for that, so thank you.

• 1:36Shawn Ryan?

  Now to the episode. This episode is a special forces officer. He's retired Colonel, Vietnam veteran, and was on the forefront of developing some cutting-edge, non-lethal weapons. This is a mind-bending episode. It's fascinating. I'll leave it at that. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, please welcome Colonel John Alexander to the Sean Ryan Show.

• 2:13Shawn Ryan?

  Please head over to Apple and Spotify, leave us a review. Type in just one word, that really helps the show out. Like, comment, subscribe to the YouTube channel. And that is all. Much love to you guys. Enjoy the show. And just to reiterate, thank you. There is nothing else in the world I would rather be doing than what I'm doing right now. And that's because of you guys. Thank you.

• 2:48Shawn Ryan?

  Colonel John Alexander, welcome to the show.

• 2:51Speaker 05

  Glad to be here, I think.

• 2:54Shawn Ryan?

  It is an honor to have you here. Yeah, it'll be good. We've been trying to reach you for probably at least a year and then finally got in contact for you, with you. And we've had several phone conversations and I just want to say I'm really, it's an honor to meet you and I'm happy that you're here sitting across from me. And this has been, this has been a dream interview for me, so thank you.

• 3:21Speaker 05

  Well, it's been, I've watched all of your shows and certainly impressed with the caliber of folks that you've had on.

• 3:28Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I appreciate that very much. We are very particular about who we bring on, so thank you. But, so John, I would like to do a life story on you, starting from childhood. I can see the cringe factor, but I promise it won't be that painful. But, but I would like to start with childhood, get through your impeccable service as a Army Special Forces and Intelligence Officer. And then I would like to get into all of the things that you've explored, both while in Army Intelligence and what you continue to do with Paranormal Activity,

• 4:11Shawn Ryan?

  Shamanism, UFO, all that kind of stuff. I mean, you are... You are one of the leading people in that space and so it's, it's, um, it's something that I've been drinking from the fire hose on, learning about and I'm, I'm about as green as it gets, but uh, it's fascinating stuff and, and I think it's very important. So, if you don't mind, I'd like to give you an introduction here.

• 4:38Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 4:39Shawn Ryan?

  It's a pretty long one, but um, Colonel John Alexander, you're retired US Army Special Forces of 32 years, commanded Army Special Forces Teams at Vietnam and Southeast Asia, Inspector General for Department of Army, Chief of Human Technology at Army Intelligence Command, Manager of Technology Integration at Army Materials Command, Director of Advanced Concepts at Army Laboratory Command, well-known for your leading role advocating the Army's development of non-lethal weapons and military applications of the paranormal. You had a hand in setting up the Army's Remote Viewing Program, later known as the Stargate

• 5:23Shawn Ryan?

  Program, featured prominently in both the movie and the book, The Men Who Stare at Goats, worked directly for General Stubblebine when the general resigned Army Intelligence, or excuse me, redesigned Army Intelligence back in the early eighties. You worked with Bob Bigelow, aerospace billionaire, in his investigations at Skimwalker Ranch and his other properties, authored several books on the future of warfare, UFO, UAP activity and paranormal activity as it was studied by the United States Army. Your latest book, Reality Denied, which is right next to you there.

• 6:03Shawn Ryan?

  Uh, PhD in behavioral sciences, you are considered a legend in the anomalous activity world and you have been to over 100 countries, according to Joe, uh, researching paranormal activity throughout the world. And um, once again.

• 6:22Speaker 05

  Fair statement.

• 6:23Shawn Ryan?

  An honor, a real honor. So, I know you have a ton of knowledge that uh, I want to tap into. So, thank you again. And before we get started.

• 6:38Shawn Ryan?

  Everybody gets a gift.

• 6:40Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 6:42Shawn Ryan?

  Any guesses?

• 6:45Speaker 05

  Not so far.

• 6:46Shawn Ryan?

  All right, we'll open it up.

• 6:47Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 6:48Shawn Ryan?

  What do you got in there?

• 6:51Speaker 05

  I'm not sure.

• 6:55Shawn Ryan?

  Little something for the ride home.

• 6:56Speaker 05

  Gummy bears.

• 6:57Shawn Ryan?

  Vigilance Elite gummy bears.

• 7:00Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 7:01Shawn Ryan?

  Those are legal in all 50 states.

• 7:05Shawn Ryan?

  But, um, but, um, so Colonel,

• 7:11Shawn Ryan?

  before we kick this off, I have a, I have a Patreon subscription service and they, they're our biggest supporters. They're the reason I'm here and you're here and that we're able to do this. And so I give them an opportunity to ask the guest a question. This is from Steve Rubio.

• 7:30Shawn Ryan?

  Did your time and experiences at Skinwalker Ranch confirm or disprove any assumptions or beliefs you had about reality, spirituality, et cetera?

• 7:45Speaker 05

  Well, are we limited to Skinwalker? I mean, that's one of the problems. We did spend time. I was with Bob the day he bought the ranch. And actually, I was the first one to spend the night up there. And the most anomalous thing that happened was the mosquito bites at that time. Having said that, it's a very, very strange place. And we can go into, you know, some of the things that go on. I know you had Brendan Fugel on as the owner and know him. Um, did it confirm or deny? I'll tell you, the last paragraph of my UFO book ends, I should say, first paragraph is UFOs are real.

• 8:25Speaker 05

  And it ends, it says, whatever this is, it is more complex than you can possibly imagine. Um, one of the takeaways from the ranch is something that I call a precognitive sentient phenomenon.

• 8:40Speaker 05

  And the point there is that there's an it, and I do not know how to describe an it. But it is in control. We never were in control. And when I said precognitive, I meant by that it seemed to know how we would respond before an event occurred. And it's certainly sentient, smart, and certainly phenomenological. And I know Brandon has picked up on the precognitive sentiment and talks about it now. And it's, I don't think it's any single thing. It is

• 9:22Speaker 05

  terribly, terribly complex. I gave you a specific example. There's one where Georgia Net was, we had a DMV on staff, but this is, we're jumping to NIDS now, National Institute for Discovery Science. And Terry German, who owned the ranch, went out, and it was calving season. And he goes out, by the way, it's a topography, they've seen the TV series, and it's generally perfectly flat when the escarpment to the north goes up onto the mesa. But calving season, he runs out and he finds a newborn calf, and they tag it, and they

• 10:07Speaker 05

  weigh it, tag it to associate it with the mother, weighs it, drives across, by the way, it's about 10 o'clock in the morning, so bright sunny day, clear visibility is the point. He finds another newborn, tags it, weighs it, and he comes back, elapsed time, we're talking about 45 minutes, calf one's dead. Not only is it dead, it's eviscerated and exsanguinated, and there's, some of the bones have been taken out and missing, and there's a nick on one of the bones, the ear, the ear was sliced off, looks like a laser cut, I mean, it was that sort of, tag is gone.

• 10:49Speaker 05

  So everybody says, particularly exsanguination, all the blood went into the ground. Um, so I got hold of George and I had them go to the slaughterhouse and get some blood and go to another place, pour it on the ground. And you come back weeks later, you say, you know, blood was poured on the ground here. So the idea that it went in. The best guess from the science board was whatever happens, by the way, the thing was weighing 60 pounds, it's now between 20 and 30 pounds-ish, meaning lots and lots of physical material has gone from the calf. You go, where? And the consideration was

• 11:30Speaker 05

  probably happened someplace else. And you go, how could that have happened? Again, it's broad daylight. We looked at all how predators kill, and none of them do anything like was described. Um, you know, you'd probably shoot rustlers, not to mention it's broad daylight in front. So the point was, it totally made no sense whatsoever, you know, in the logic as we know it. And so the it again seemed to know what we would do, you know, once that happened. And that's one. And the other issue was, it kept morphing. And particularly

• 12:13Speaker 05

  with cameras, there are things that would stare, it would know where we would place it. We had it even then, it was monitored 24/7. And we'd go through the thing. And instead of here, it's just off camera. Or then, there were incidents that happened that should have been on camera, and nothing is there. And, um, see, we had cameras on poles that were staring to the west. There's two cameras and then another two cameras in front of it. So the first two cameras are visible from the rear. Now, I'll give you an example. Uh, the, uh,

• 12:57Speaker 05

  The cameras are on top of 20 foot poles. They come down, got about half a roll of duct tape connecting them to it. There, there's a PVC unit that takes it down into the ground and the wires go back to what's now called the command center. It was just double wides at the time, but everything's being recorded. What there is, we know exactly when it stopped recording. And what you find is that the wires are pulled out of this camera, that's 20 feet out, not seen there. There's about a three foot chunk of the wire that's just

• 13:36Speaker 05

  missing, been totally cut. PVC has been pulled loose. Now, coincidentally, at the time it happened, the cattle just happened to be around that part of the ranch that was there. Point there is anytime somebody would approach, they'd get spooked and would go running off. No visibility of anything that happened. You know, they're there. All of this stuff happens. Camera, the cameras in here do not see anything on it, but all of these things physically happened, should have been captured, but weren't.

• 14:17Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 14:18Speaker 05

  So, it's in control.

• 14:20Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. What, is there any other way to describe it? Would it, would a, would a non-human intelligence be a good description?

• 14:31Speaker 05

  Non-human intelligence normally is associated with kind of like an alien being or something, not a supernormal force.

• 14:43Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 14:44Speaker 05

  That has, you know, is controlling everything.

• 14:47Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 14:48Speaker 05

  So, it's certainly non-human and certainly intelligent, but yeah, most people think of it, they tend to think of, you know, what's being discussed with the Greshnold, we have an alien body and they're non-human and maybe smarter than us and, you know, all that. But this is more in the controlling force category that, um...

• 15:11Shawn Ryan?

  Bigger than anything we could even think of.

• 15:14Speaker 05

  Sorry?

• 15:15Shawn Ryan?

  Bigger than anything we could even imagine.

• 15:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, that's what I said in the thing. It says, probably more complex than we can imagine.

• 15:25Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think, do you think we'll ever be able to grasp the magnitude of, of, and the complexity of, of what that is, what it is?

• 15:38Speaker 05

  Short answer would be no.

• 15:41Speaker 05

  And again, I guess what you, because we can imagine a lot. You can imagine all kinds of things in various venues. And suspect that it's beyond our capability to imagine. And of course, that's highly speculative, but having said this, and not just a skinwalker, but around the things we've seen around the world, it gets, and the word that comes to mind, we'll probably discuss a number of times, is ineffable, because that pops up in a, the meaning, it can't be described. And in various phenomena that we can discuss, that's one of the key words that come up. There's, I just don't have words to describe it.

• 16:25Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. I cannot wait to dive into this stuff, but, um, but right now, let's start with your life story.

• 16:35Shawn Ryan?

  Where did you grow up?

• 16:36Speaker 05

  I was born.

• 16:40Speaker 05

  No, technically, I was born in Manhattan, moved to New Jersey, and by the time, I don't remember any of that, and by the time I was two, we moved to La Crosse, Wisconsin. I basically grew up there.

• 16:54Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. Hockey player?

• 16:57Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 16:57Shawn Ryan?

  You a hockey player?

• 17:00Speaker 05

  No.

• 17:01Shawn Ryan?

  New York to Wisconsin, no hockey?

• 17:03Speaker 05

  No, no hockey ever. I wasn't very good at skating, in fact, ankles, and I'd tried ice skating a few times, but it's not one of my favorite sports.

• 17:13Shawn Ryan?

  What did you like to do as a kid?

• 17:16Speaker 05

  Uh, well, I was interested in weird stuff, uh, kinda all along, do remember that.

• 17:22Shawn Ryan?

  What, when you say you were into weird stuff as a, as a young man and as a child, can you be a little more specific?

• 17:32Speaker 05

  Well, I was interested in space and space as a program, we know it, uh, generally not a hot topic at the time, but the, the potential for, but basically from a physical perspective, you know? I mean, the moon was a long ways off at that, uh, that time and, uh, yeah, I was still already thinking as a young child, you know, we can go there.

• 17:59Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding? What, what kind of, what kind of space exploration had we accomplished?

• 18:06Speaker 05

  None.

• 18:07Shawn Ryan?

  Nothing?

• 18:07Speaker 05

  No, remember, we, we don't have missiles at this, this juncture.

• 18:11Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 05

  I mean, it's much later before even the beginning of a missile program, let alone one that is going to venture out there, but there were, I remember Collier's magazine and so there's where people were talking about, you see pictures of, but this was definitely pie in the sky types of things that you.

• 18:34Shawn Ryan?

  And what caught your interest in space?

• 18:38Speaker 05

  I don't know, just was.

• 18:41Shawn Ryan?

  Just plain curiosity?

• 18:43Speaker 05

  There was no particular interest and, and all of these things, what I talk about, I says, there was no epiphany on any of these. It was more, it's more like steering an aircraft carrier, big, you know, it's slow turns as opposed to, you know, turn on a dime or something.

• 19:02Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Were you into paranormal activity?

• 19:07Speaker 05

  Not particularly at that juncture.

• 19:09Shawn Ryan?

  No? What caught your interest in the military?

• 19:15Speaker 05

  Uh, Special Forces. Now, uh, graduated high school. I had a chance to go to college. And went for a year and that wasn't, I went to Beloit College for a year. It wasn't terribly exciting. Uh, had a scholarship, but, mm, and I was reading these articles about Special Forces. Now, at this time, there was only the seventy-seventh, which it was then, it's become the seventh, um, tenth group. I remember seeing some articles and said, "Oh, that's, sounds interesting." And, uh, so I went, I actually

• 19:57Speaker 05

  had not warned my mother. Um, and they thought I was gonna go back for the sophomore year. And I came in one day, he says, "Oh, by the way, tomorrow morning, I'm catching a boat." And, uh, the, uh, turns out the recruiters had lied to me. What a shock, I suppose. Who would've thought? Yeah. No, I went in and I said, "I want to join Special Forces." And they said, "Oh, just sign up for airborne." And, uh, I said, "Well, I want..." And this afternoon, "Oh, all you have to do is sign the thing and you can get reassigned there." I was dumb enough to believe them at the time, not understanding the system.

• 20:38Speaker 05

  So, went off and, uh, did basic training and then went to the Hundred and First Airborne, which had just been reactivated. Wow. After World War II, uh, it was deactivated. And, um, then the one-eight-seven, the five-oh, I think it was the five-oh-eighth, five-oh-third, the two regimental combat teams came together and they were gonna activate something called the Pan-tomic Division. And, uh, that was a totally new concept at the time. You also gotta remember that nuclear weapons are just coming and we're talking nineteen fifty-six.

• 21:19Speaker 05

  So, um, yeah, it was a totally different concept on how we were gonna fight in the future and, uh, interesting, shortly, the first or second, but he recurs, General Wes Morland was the, uh, division commander. And I ended up...

• 21:41Speaker 05

  All things as a medic. You know, went through medic training was with three, two, six medical company, which is still a medical company for the hundred and first. But it also meant that our company commander is a lieutenant colonel. Because all of the doctors in the division are under him. So that was kind of an unusual structure. And he liked to jump and he, and that led to us getting into Rangers. When I went to Ranger school in fifty eight. Um, we had more Rangers in the medical company than any industry company. And, uh, but remember the theory for the Rangers at the time.

• 22:25Speaker 05

  Rangers had been totally deactivated as well. And was out of Korea and that was, uh, uh, partially because of casualty rates. They felt were too high, but they wanted to, you know, kind of spread the wealth across the company. In addition, uh, it's the only way you're going to get promoted. Because after the war, I mean, promotion rates are, you know, tremendously slowing down and you, but if you graduated from Ranger school, you automatically made E five. So that's how I made E five. And then went, uh, when I came back, they sent me to the hundred and first airborne

• 23:09Speaker 05

  school as an instructor. So I'm here, I'm what twenty years old as an instructor, wearing the black hats and screaming at folks and all that.

• 23:20Shawn Ryan?

  Did you enjoy that?

• 23:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was interesting, of course. There was an interesting dynamic between us and the more seasoned instructors. I mean, we were really green.

• 23:33Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:33Speaker 05

  And actually got, well, the ground training NCO kind of, it was a guy by the name of Henry Slomansky. He's one we might want to discuss, but he had a hangman's MOS and had actually been involved in hanging the Japanese war criminals.

• 23:52Speaker 05

  And so we're talking about.

• 23:55Shawn Ryan?

  He was hanging Japanese war criminals.

• 23:58Speaker 05

  He had, yes.

• 23:59Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 23:59Speaker 05

  And he had been assigned in Japan. He had also become, he had taken up karate and became the commissioner for the Western Hemisphere for the Japanese karate. His big deal was there had a two day contest and he beat 119 Japanese to become the national champion in his field.

• 24:28Shawn Ryan?

  You, if you were alive pre-World War II, how old are you now? If you don't mind me asking.

• 24:35Speaker 05

  I'm 86.

• 24:37Shawn Ryan?

  Eighty-six. My question is, I had an interesting conversation yesterday and we talked about the first time a Tic Tac appeared. And it sounds like the first time that we identified a Tic Tac was when we tested the nuclear bomb.

• 24:57Speaker 05

  Oh, that's what 43.

• 25:00Shawn Ryan?

  Were you? Do you remember that?

• 25:05Speaker 05

  That was not a, that'd be, well, no, because it was totally secret.

• 25:13Speaker 05

  And as we may get into, Edward Teller was a personal friend. And we actually discussed these things. And as he pointed out, he says, you know, millions of people didn't know and only this handful of people at Trinity Site, or of course at Los Alamos building it. Most of the people involved didn't even know what they were doing. They all had little compartmented pieces of the project. And under Oppenheimer, I'm sure people have seen the movie on that now. Teller is in it as well.

• 25:52Speaker 05

  They became adversaries, but did not get along. See, Teller wanted to go straight to fusion and the atomic bomb was fission, a fission bomb. And fusion jumped it up in order, order of magnitude. So they.

• 26:17Speaker 05

  Like I say, basically Hiroshima, until that went off, almost nobody knew about it other than a few people in northern New Mexico and that area because of the size of the blast at the time. But this was not something that was carried in the public until Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

• 26:40Shawn Ryan?

  What was the, what was the response from regular American citizens when that bomb was dropped?

• 26:49Speaker 05

  Um, until the follow-up, probably not much. Again, I have no idea what it is. I mean, do not have our understanding of nuclear energy at the time. I mean, it's not even a concept for 99% of the people. Um, that it led quickly to the end of the war. Interestingly, my second career, of course, is Los Alamos, and I was there at the 50th anniversary of when the bomb was going to be up. And they happened to send me to Washington to study some of the documents that came out. I remember the casualties

• 27:30Speaker 05

  that had been taken in island hopping, if you will, pretty horrendous. Um, and, you know, this in three days changed everything, you know, where they had capitulated. What most don't know, and I actually read the documents on this in the National Archives, to invade Honshu proper, called for nine atomic bombs in preparation. And by the way, the physical invasion was fully an order of magnitude more difficult than Normandy. Just over all of the logistics and the distances that would be involved and was going to be

• 28:14Speaker 05

  required to get there. Hence, of course, the problem was didn't have them.

• 28:21Speaker 05

  The other thing that came up quite a bit was, you know, why didn't we do a demonstration, the more humanitarian? And that was thought about. And the real answer was, they weren't sure it would go off. And nothing could be worse than to have a demonstration. Nothing happened.

• 28:42Shawn Ryan?

  Good point. When did Vietnam come about? Where were you in your army career?

• 28:49Speaker 05

  Well, let's say, actually, I got out for a short period. And actually joined SF from the outside with a new unit was being formed. And we had friends who, you see, Vietnam was going on for a while. Most people don't know, we had folks at D N B and Phu.

• 29:11Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 29:11Speaker 05

  And so, you know, that was like, that's the French war and all of that. And then, of course, Kennedy coming along and deciding that we're going to interject with a few advisors, mostly CIA initially, and then SF started there. And, you know, it's one of these things that sort of evolved. Well, the whole domino theory was critical at that time. Now, this was that if Vietnam falls and, you know, Cambodia and Thailand and all that,

• 29:52Speaker 05

  the communists are going to roll up Southeast Asia. And so that was kind of the rationale for getting involved at the level that we did.

• 30:03Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. What was, what was your opinion of the war? I know it was a very unpopular war. Did it start that way?

• 30:13Speaker 05

  Well, at what point?

• 30:14Shawn Ryan?

  Did it, did it start as an unpopular war?

• 30:17Speaker 05

  No, not at all. Well, it started very low key and nobody knew about it. And I will say, my opinion changed over time. Specifically, when I got there, I kind of considered myself a mercenary, if you'll, because, I mean, this is, you know, where you get promotions. So, and I had been in Thailand before that and I T T'd to Vietnam.

• 30:49Speaker 05

  Oh, oh, this gets into messy stuff. Um, yeah, I was convinced that if we switched sides, we could have wiped that out in ninety days because the other side wanted to win. Ours really, ours being, you know, the Vietnamese per se were not that interested. My counterpart was definitely a crook. Now, when I get to Vietnam and we're talking all of sixty-eight had a team on the Cambodian border in the Seven Mountains area. So we were a big A-team.

• 31:33Speaker 05

  We had about, it varied from fifteen to eighteen people, but many of them were not, or a few of them at least, were not SF per se. But I had six companies.

• 31:48Shawn Ryan?

  Sorry, where did the guys that were not SF come from?

• 31:51Speaker 05

  We had a flashy unit, which was literally a, you know, searchlight unit.

• 31:58Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 31:59Speaker 05

  That would, because from looking out across, we were just short of the Cambodian border, but all rice paddies there, but in the mountains looking out and you could put IR infrared beams out there and watch at night. Exactly why they were there, I have no idea. But organizationally, I had six companies of, well, there were eight hundred people that I was paying and another four hundred that were opcom. So I was, had a unit of, you know, twelve hundred or so.

• 32:37Shawn Ryan?

  Holy cow.

• 32:38Speaker 05

  And so, yeah, because the American military thought we were squad leaders, you know, because, you know, we had, you know, we're only twelve people on, on the team, but had, you know, pretty big units. Also, one of the problems was that I had a Vietnamese counterpart who was a major, terribly corrupt, and they were selling, um...

• 33:05Speaker 05

  If you had a Sich card, CIDG card, then you couldn't be drafted into the Vietnamese army. So they would sell these and so these were ghosts, basically, and would show up for pay the only time you actually saw them. Having said that, we had companies that actually were there on a day-to-day basis.

• 33:28Shawn Ryan?

  So would you say that the Vietnamese people were very unmotivated?

• 33:34Speaker 05

  Well, it depends. Now ethnically, one of the things I also wanted to say about Vietnam is there's thousands and thousands of different stories because where you were and when you were there changed dramatically.

• 33:52Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 33:53Speaker 05

  The adversaries in my area were Vietcong, which is very different from the folks fighting in the north who were fighting NVA. And that changes over time. Yeah, well, my very first operation that I remember kind of got my attention. There was a small hill out to the north of us. And ethnically, I had three companies that were predominantly Vietnamese and three companies were Cambodians. We had KKK, literally Khmer Compochai Khrom, and

• 34:35Speaker 05

  that was the majority. And the area was ethnically Cambodian. So we went out and I went with the company that was going to the east in this way. And we were supposed to do kind of a simple pincer mission. It was a walk in the sun. But the group I was with got there first and says, okay, now we are going to ambush the Vietnamese. And I'm going, oh, shit, that's my own company and they want to shoot each other up. So that was kind of a wake-up call very quickly.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  On October 2nd.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped going? You stall, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 35:38Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.

• 35:44Speaker 06

  Bonjour, compadre. It's the.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  Priceline Negotiator.

• 35:48Speaker 06

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• 36:13Speaker 03

  Priceline.

• 36:14Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. What kind of missions were you guys doing?

• 36:22Speaker 05

  What kind of mission? Well, that's a very interesting question. I never thought of it in that way. Obviously, we were controlling an area.

• 36:36Speaker 05

  People don't realize there are actually mountains in the delta. There were three major ones in my area. New Icom, New Ijai, and New Ikoto, the first. New Ikoto was infamous.

• 36:51Speaker 05

  And when I took over the camp, we had a company stationed on the top of each of New Icom and New Ijai. Now, the reality was, we owned the bottom, we owned the top, and they owned the middle in between.

• 37:09Speaker 05

  That it was so well-defined that you could go off and you say, if I walked on this patio, say, if I step over here, I'm gonna get shot at. You could call artillery from memory, because you knew exactly where it was, when it was gonna start and all that. And you also had the Ho Chi Minh Trail ended just to the west. You could literally see it come down. They knew. The biggest thing we had was a four-deuce mortar. And out of Chi Lang, which was a Vietnamese base, Arvin. And they had two 155s there.

• 37:52Speaker 05

  But calling fire from them, which we did on occasion, was quite intricate. And what was interesting is when you went out flying, there was a path, maybe 50 meters beyond the range of our four deuce. I mean, you could, they knew exactly how far we could shoot. And you're just, you know, beaten path coming down into the mountains. Because they could, particularly down in Newikoto, was very much a B C stronghold. And of course, you want to get into the infamous tet. I mean, that was off.

• 38:32Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, let's do it. Let's get into it.

• 38:35Speaker 05

  Well, my experience with tet, one of the big issues that we talked about, I think, is intelligence. Because my experience was intelligence went one way, up, you know, never got anything. And so this was a, a truce was called. And up until that time, the truces had always been observed. They'd done it before. When you'd fly recon missions, after that, you'd see a whole lot of lights that you don't see, you know, they're in the fighting areas where we'd bomb. And so I was, we had admin work to do, literally doing paperwork.

• 39:19Speaker 05

  So I flew back to Canto, which was the company headquarters, and went in and was getting ready. Actually, they side light foot, they sunk a sandpan in the river off of Canto. And they, I was a diver, and they wanted somebody to go dive on it. We were getting ready to do that because they thought it was carrying arms. And it got too late and they, we'll go tomorrow. Went back in and back to the camp. And we were hot bunking, you know. So went to bed. And I remember the S2 coming and say, well, there's some strange units in here.

• 40:01Speaker 05

  It was not a tonight's the night, watch out, you know, any kind of serious warning.

• 40:08Speaker 05

  Went to bed and woke up and there's green tracers going by the window. And you go, oh shit, that means they're in here.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 05

  You know, they use green tracers and ours were all red. So it was a no good, very bad night. Uh, basically, we didn't do anything. What had happened was, uh, Special Forces, one of the first teams in the area on the airstrip by Kanto, and so things had moved out from there. So we were actually damn near in the center surrounded by American units.

• 40:47Speaker 05

  Unfortunately, uh, three young troops who were out on the perimeter had gone to sleep and got their throats slit, uh, because they were all asleep. And what happened was there was a lieutenant who was going out to, you know, check the guard and damn if he doesn't run into them on the airstrip and calls in. And then, so the fight starts from there. And it, uh, you know, a lot of their folks got dead that night. I mean, they were able to bring in reinforcements. My point was, we had no idea it was coming. And I'm listening on the radio as, you know, all over the country, you know, town after

• 41:32Speaker 05

  town and the cities and capitals are falling and you're going, my thought, quite frankly, was, uh, this is Korea all over again. China has entered the war, you know? How could we see that big, uh, you know, invasion that had no preparation for? Now, it turns out, and I didn't learn until, I think it was a 60 Minutes special or something that came up, that Saigon knew. And there were American units that had been alerted. We had no idea it was coming and everything in the whole district was lost.

• 42:15Speaker 05

  Um, at that time, uh, I had a B team at Chowdak and, uh...

• 42:29Speaker 05

  This is where Drew Dex actually got a Medal of Honor because there were people that were downtown, a big deal there were, we had nurses downtown. Well, the B-team commander would not allow anybody to leave the compound. Well, Drew was working with Phoenix and he says, "Screw you, I don't, I work for the agency." And he went out and that's a whole story worth learning. But they went out and found the nurses downtown, saved them and brought them back. But everything except the compound was under, and the same thing

• 43:08Speaker 05

  was true kind of across the area. In our area, i.e. the delta there, the problem was they had been ordered to attack and didn't want to, but you know, Ho Chi Minh was calling a thing. They had no plan for success. So after a while, okay, we got this. Now what do we do? And went back into the mountains and back across the border into Cambodia. Kind of went down. And one of the things I had done though is watching this, I called and I said, "Let's pull one of the companies off of New Icom." New IJI, we definitely

• 43:53Speaker 05

  needed to keep, but that's just to get more troops down because obviously the fighting was going to be down on the high level, not in the mountains, which is where we normally, you know, had operation.

• 44:08Shawn Ryan?

  I have that you found a landmine tripwire through a gut feeling in Vietnam. Can you tell us about that?

• 44:18Speaker 05

  Well, that particular one, we were just out walking and got into a, into an area. This is the mountains, we're at the foot, not foothills, it's just starting to rise up, but kind of jungle area. And yeah, I was, we were just wandering around and started backing up. And the lieutenant going, "Mean, mean, mean!" And looked down and across the back of my heel, I had already started to pull the tripwire.

• 44:57Speaker 05

  And obviously, it didn't go off. So, yeah, that sort of stuff happened. We hit mines a number of times.

• 45:09Shawn Ryan?

  How much time did you spend over there?

• 45:15Speaker 05

  Well, I was there a full year. Kind of unusual, because most commanders stayed in for six months at a time. And I had come from commanding another A-team in Thailand.

• 45:29Shawn Ryan?

  What were you doing in Thailand?

• 45:31Speaker 05

  Well, we were training the Thais. And it was kind of interesting. We went over as Delta Company at first. This was organized at what was then Fort Bragg. And it was, it's called the original good deal. Everybody was signing up and going over. What I never knew until just a few years ago is this was actually considered a strategic move. That they were literally worried about losing Vietnam and the stuff would go into Thailand. Although they had the CTU, which were communist terrorists, and, you know, kind of small action.

• 46:13Speaker 05

  But this was gearing up to, you know, literally be the next barrier in case Vietnam fell. We, of course, didn't know that. We were on training missions. I opened several camps. One was Nantaku. When we went in, it was an area not much bigger than where we're sitting here, a little hole in the jungle. And a year later, when we left, there was an airstrip and, you know, but we would bring, we were working with the Royal Thai Special Forces and bringing in a lot of recruit companies and training them.

• 46:57Speaker 05

  They had a few that they did send to Vietnam, but most of this was geared to fight in Thailand. And then we had gone to Uban, Udon, Chakon Nakhon, and then down Kalyoe down in the south. We had teams scattered all over Thailand that were doing the same thing.

• 47:20Shawn Ryan?

  Going back to Vietnam, you'd spent an entire year there.

• 47:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:25Shawn Ryan?

  And Vietnam was, I mean, the carnage and the death and the loss of life that, that you must have seen there.

• 47:38Shawn Ryan?

  Was it a daily occurrence?

• 47:41Speaker 05

  Actually, no.

• 47:43Shawn Ryan?

  No?

• 47:43Speaker 05

  No, there were periods, I mean, there were peak periods.

• 47:50Speaker 05

  Our fighting was more kind of on the, well, skip the whole set. You asked about missions. One of the things that would happen is that we would periodically get air assets. And they would normally send like four slicks, four snakes and four OH6 observation helicopters. And so what would happen is they would send them in, then we'd take a pair of snakes and a pair of cobras and a pair of loaches. And I would go with the loaches and we would literally go out hunting and go out because we could, this is an extended area that we could get to.

• 48:34Speaker 05

  You know, we had foot patrols that were going out all the time. But again, because we were, you know, the last area, particularly to the west, Charlie, you know, stayed out there and had, what I didn't find out, this was one of the intelligence issues. I had a friend that we can talk about in a second, he was then Phantom Two. And it turns out they had a lot more intelligence about where these units were than we knew. They were a lot bigger units than I ever imagined in my area.

• 49:14Speaker 05

  But what we would do is go out, there's something called the tram forest. And this is out there miles and miles of it, but it's the forest that grows through the water. And.

• 49:32Speaker 05

  Everybody assumed it was impossible to live. That was not true. What they would do is go out and build, you know, areas out there where they could put in platforms and literally get up above the water and put that. So we would go out hunting until you found, find the units, because they would move about. Then we'd call the guns in and then if a unit was there, somebody could hold, then we'd call the slicks. I had a, you know, the four slicks waiting back at the base and you'd call them in to support. We'd do ground sweep on the area. Usually the guns would pretty much clean things out.

• 50:14Shawn Ryan?

  What are slicks?

• 50:15Speaker 05

  Those were the UH, yeah, Hueys.

• 50:19Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 50:20Speaker 05

  Yeah. But they had, you know, the two door gunners, but this was very different. In fact, people remember the old B model gunships, which again were Hueys. These were so underpowered. We'd go, when you go back to Chi Lang and a rearm and they'd come in there, you had to literally run alongside while it's trying to get off. And just as it lifted off, then you'd jump into the helicopter and grab the gun.

• 50:50Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 50:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, the people don't realize, like I say, it was really quite different at the time.

• 50:57Shawn Ryan?

  Very interesting. You had a incident where an OH-6 Alpha was shot down.

• 51:04Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 51:05Shawn Ryan?

  Can you talk about that, please?

• 51:07Speaker 05

  It was a no good, very bad day. Yeah, though, we were out screwing around, again, doing these kind of search missions. I was looking for something and I was flying as the observer and looking down in the water and found some platforms that were, had some munitions piled up on it, said, okay, these guys gotta be here. And so I pop smoke. What we was gonna do, just blow it up from the air. I pop smoke and throw it, you know, onto the thing. And then I see this little brown trail. Said, oop, somebody's just running through the water. And all of a sudden, the guy goes, just comes right across us. Now,

• 51:52Speaker 05

  we're flying not much higher than the ceiling here. We're literally at almost treetop level. And, um, Yeah, one lucky or unlucky shot, depending on your point of view, I guess, is they cut the, cut the gas line. And so my guys screaming, you know, we're taking fire. The coincidental news that probably saved our ass was we were just changing over on station. So we happened to have two new loaches coming in and two more guns. So we had four Cobras and, anyway, so we were screaming and saying we're taking fire

• 52:36Speaker 05

  and went up and I still remember the scream, you know, all the lights flashing and all that went out. And we hit the trees, my point, whereas we went from about 50 to zero instantaneously. And I was not wearing a chicken plate. And so I had a little bit of slack. I will say, you know, the thing caught, but that was not good. And the fortunate thing is wingman slipped down and when we could move, it took a while to get to where we could, and I'd lost my gun. I mean, it went

• 53:12Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 53:13Speaker 05

  Right past there. He picks it up. By the way, compliment to the builders, I mean, it crashed really well. I mean, the whole thing is disintegrated. You got pictures, you know, they picked it up and the struts were off and the canopy in front of us is totally destroyed. And was able to get over and grab the struts and get lifted out and then back to the hospital and can tow eventually. And, yeah, sometimes the bear gets you.

• 53:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, that's, that's

• 53:50Speaker 05

  But it turns out, what I didn't know at that time is we had gone down inside a VC battalion. And damned if they didn't come after us, even with the guns on station, because there was a premium on, you know, captured Americans. And we did have one, Nick Rowe, I don't know the story, but he had been captured, he was in our area. He was captured with 62, but

• 54:23Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah, they were willing to, you know, risk the fires and they, you know, snakes were pretty good between miniguns and missiles. They could really wreak havoc, but they were willing to risk that to come and get us and fortunately didn't.

• 54:40Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Did you ever deploy on missions as individuals versus teams? Did you go out in smaller groups as an individual versus a team?

• 54:54Speaker 05

  No.

• 54:55Shawn Ryan?

  No?

• 54:55Speaker 05

  No.

• 54:56Shawn Ryan?

  No, you never did that?

• 54:58Speaker 05

  Uh, no, there was no place where you would go. Uh, you would, almost any place you tried to do that, you'd be seriously outnumbered.

• 55:09Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 55:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 55:11Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 55:14Shawn Ryan?

  What was it like, what was it like coming home from Vietnam?

• 55:21Speaker 05

  Well, if I remember landing in the Sea-Tac, uh, there were no ticker-tack parades or anything like that, that's for sure. Saw more of it after, uh, when I was, uh, with the 25th Infantry Division, um, you know, where you ran into the students. I remember walking along, I had a, a license plate, front license plate. It was in Hawaii and it was a happiness is a green beret with Snoopy, you know, kind of cute. Some guy looked at me and goes, "Okay, got, got the message."

• 56:03Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. What kind of stuff did you face personally after war?

• 56:11Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 56:12Shawn Ryan?

  What was the effect after, I mean, after, after a solid year of combat in Vietnam, killing, seeing your friends die? I mean, how did that affect you coming home?

• 56:29Speaker 05

  I'm not sure where you're going with that. One of the things that I have talked about...

• 56:36Speaker 05

  It's an area that's not talked about because we were ostensibly fully integrated and functional, no overt PTSD, but one of the things I talk about is dreams. This stuff comes back and can last for, unfortunately, likely to happen again because of this, because I've compartmented that far enough away. And I recently, not a year ago, I was, met with a friend up in Cedar City, Utah, and

• 57:17Speaker 05

  he was interested and kept pressing, "What about this?" And I wrote him back and said, "Gee, thanks." These things do re-trigger them. And unfortunately, it's never, in my experience, it was never like it really was. Usually, it gets a lot worse in some ways. Yeah, but you don't hear folks talking about that.

• 57:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 57:49Speaker 05

  And like I say, we're the ones who relatively fully integrated and...

• 57:58Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I won't make you revisit it. I will not make you revisit that. We'll move on.

• 58:03Speaker 05

  Well, the point is that it's just these kinds of discussions are the kinds that, you know, because I really thought this stuff was behind me and that, then you find out, you know, it's...

• 58:17Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 58:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:19Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 58:20Speaker 05

  They can recur. It's pretty significant.

• 58:22Shawn Ryan?

  I know you went back to war when Afghanistan happened, after 9/11. Before we get to Afghanistan, what were you doing in between Vietnam and your Afghanistan?

• 58:41Speaker 05

  Well...

• 58:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, various jobs. I was with, um, you know. See, one of the unusual things we'll probably hit is technically, I was an infantry officer. For the people who don't know, the 18, or the Special Forces, was not a branch. We were like a little skill identifier, initially an S and then a 3 that got added to your MOS. This wasn't your primary function. So technically, I was an infantry officer who spent two official tours ever in the infantry in the entire time. Um, and so, you know, came back and went to, uh, the 25th.

• 59:30Speaker 05

  Um, and, uh, what was interesting there, one of the, they've written to, this is something that people don't realize at all. You know, the infantry, the divisions are set up, if you're gonna deploy, you send the infantry divisions, i.e. the fighters, they're gonna go in and, and take over. Well, at the end of Vietnam, all of a sudden, we have all of these folks coming out, and, you know, refugees going to various islands. So, are you familiar with DISCOM?

• 1:00:04Shawn Ryan?

  I'm not.

• 1:00:05Speaker 05

  Okay, DISCOM is the, um, they're all, uh, support units, if, if you will.

• 1:00:13Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:00:14Speaker 05

  And so normally, your support comes behind the fighters. We ended up with a support or DISCOM going out first. You know, taking, you know, hospitals and things like that, that you would have been in to support the infantry, but nobody ever prepared for the idea that we're gonna send the support units, not in a combat mission, but in this case, just to receive refugees that were coming out, by, uh, thousands, I mean, I think everybody knows how the collapse, uh, you know, happened. And so, we ended up sending units to Guam, but it was a very different exercise, and

• 1:00:56Speaker 05

  nobody had ever contemplated that, that, but, and by that time, I was on the division staff. So, you know, preparing for that was really quite unique, and I don't know if anybody's even ever written to, you know, what that was like.

• 1:01:14Shawn Ryan?

  Would you like to go into that?

• 1:01:16Speaker 05

  I'm sorry?

• 1:01:16Shawn Ryan?

  Would you like to go into that?

• 1:01:19Speaker 05

  Well, there's not much to go into, other than to say, because, again, in the division staff, we were geared up to send the 25th Infantry Division, the Wolfhounds and, you know, Gillivis and all of them out first. Uh, and, uh, we also found out that, uh, a lot of people from the support staff had signed agreements, not thinking they'd ever be mobilized, but had to sign, if you were married, had to sign agreements, you had somebody to take care of kids and all of that. And that became a huge issue. Uh, finding people who would say, well, wait, I can't deploy, I've got, you know, and did not have the backup system.

• 1:02:03Speaker 05

  Um, I suspect that's happened more in units, you know, more recently. We found, no, basically, everybody is deployable and you've got to contemplate that. And it's nice to have dual incomes when everything's cool and, you know, just on trips and that. It's very different when you say, you know, oh, mommy's going to be gone for a year.

• 1:02:27Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:31Shawn Ryan?

  One thing that I didn't ask you about, that I would like to know, is what was it like for you when the war was done? Did you feel like we abandoned our counterparts?

• 1:02:47Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:02:50Speaker 05

  Uh, again, my take on it had been all along that, um,

• 1:02:57Speaker 05

  you know, uh, it was kind of unsustainable to begin with. And again, my experience with the Vietnamese, ones I dealt with, well, my counterpart had tried to have me killed four times that I know of. How so? And in fact, when, one of the things we didn't discuss was, um, one of the things I had done when I got there, we estimated that probably 10%, I mean, the CIDG were VC inside the camp. Uh, and I had heard of attacks that had taken place where Americans, uh, this had happened in other camps.

• 1:03:39Speaker 05

  So I created a special squad, we called it, and gave them M16s. I remember the main weapon that said, yeah, we're talking old carbines. And one of the problems, they don't have a lot of stopping power or take down power and all that. So I was able to get enough M16s and organize a special unit. And when we went out, you'd always have two Americans or so go on every operation. And so I would send, uh, some of these guys, and their job was not to fight, it was to protect the Americans and potentially from our folks.

• 1:04:21Speaker 05

  So, I mean, we knew there was an insider problem, there's no doubt about that. Oh, man. And one of the biggies we didn't hit that was most unfortunate, um, I said, we had this major ball who was just a mega crook, and a captain that was under him who was about to take over the camp. And the way the camp where I had the main camp, I said, we had had the things on top of the mountain, we had an area called Bachel, which was an old French triangular fort. There was a few clicks out, but within mortar range so we could support them.

• 1:05:03Speaker 05

  And, uh, one night, uh, they got hit, really bad. And, um, yeah, this was one we put spooky actually into the camp, but, uh, we're, the next morning, we had called in, uh, Mike Forrest and, uh, actually, you know, so we're, we were gonna go out and force. Um, and we go, there's this rumbling going on, and my interpreter comes and says,

• 1:05:33Speaker 05

  John was VC. What do you mean? It turns out that this Vietnamese captain had gone over to the VC. And what had happened is he had brought in like six or eight recruits that day. And the regular VC were training on the hill and they had a battalion ready to go. So battalion hit this small thing that's supported by a company, half of them outside. Uh, bottom line is we lost everybody that night, 100% KIA. And what, oh, uh, he had brought the recruits in.

• 1:06:14Speaker 05

  When the attack came and everybody went the way, this was set up, you had little compartments, but you couldn't see from one to the other. And again, this is the old French fort. Uh, they even went behind and shot everybody. And because we got there and the only thing, there's no damage and nothing blown in the wall. The wire fence coming in had just been moved aside. That's where they left. But, uh, you know, those were the kind of conditions and, uh, yeah, he had gone, I understand. Uh, you know, I had actually sent a message out and said, look, I'll meet you and talk.

• 1:06:59Speaker 05

  You know, what the fuck?

• 1:07:01Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:02Speaker 05

  Because this guy, he and I had gone out on operation, could have turned me over and all that. So I don't think it was a long term, but had convinced them, you know, enough to go over and turn and wipe out his own people. And so when you say, did we desert?

• 1:07:23Shawn Ryan?

  I can definitely understand your perspective.

• 1:07:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was really, like I say, the ones, high level ones I knew were corrupt. And like out to get me, that's because we were, we were very successful in these raids that we would go out and hit a number of times and picking up supply doms. There's photos of that around and capturing weapons and all of that. But, um,

• 1:07:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, you go for what? I don't know.

• 1:07:56Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, what did you do when you got back home? What did you get into?

• 1:08:06Speaker 05

  Went to the next assignment.

• 1:08:08Shawn Ryan?

  What was the next assignment?

• 1:08:10Speaker 05

  Uh, well, like I say, I went, uh, time to think. That's 69, I was at Fort Hood. Uh, became a Battalion Three, S3 Operations Officer.

• 1:08:24Shawn Ryan?

  When did you start to get into Army Intelligence?

• 1:08:30Speaker 05

  That comes along later. Um, well, several steps in between, uh, but I ended up getting selected to go to, uh, well, this is, uh, 19, uh, by 1979, I got selected to go to Commander General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, which was not terribly stressful. And, um, so I wrote an article that was called "The New Metal Battlefield." And this talked about remote viewing and psychokinesis and it, a lot of it had come out of what the Soviets, uh, were doing.

• 1:09:14Speaker 05

  And, um, I was, uh, after the, I wrote that at the school, then was assigned as a Department of Army Inspector General.

• 1:09:26Speaker 05

  And, uh, so I get there, uh, well, there's several, and coincidence or synchronicity just keeps recurring through this. When I wrote the article, frankly, I didn't think it would get published, but it was an area of interest and I, I had been looking at the Soviet stuff. And by the way, you'll catch me because I interject Soviet and Russian all that, but this was Soviet era, the bad old days. And, um, so I submitted the article to, uh, Military Review.

• 1:09:59Speaker 05

  There and Timothy would have it that the editor of Military Review at that time had had a near-death experience. So this thing of being out of body and that was that. So instead of just an article that he chooses to print, it became the front Wow. Cover article. And it went out. Now, at this time, I didn't know about Joe. And, you know, they actually had a remote viewing. It was a thing that said, we probably ought to be doing this stuff. And, um, you know, the

• 1:10:37Speaker 05

  something in the iron curtain, you know, we knew that the Soviets were, you know, heavily doing this. Uh, so it was just a, Jay isn't that interesting, in my view, that's what it was. Well, um, there was a muckraker in, uh, Washington called, uh, Jack Anderson. Um, if you remember him or not, he was a, uh, you know, I don't know who you'd equate him to today, but he was one of the top, uh, journalists that would come up with, you know, unusual things and, and you look at the bad government, look what they're doing and catch it. So he writes an article, uh, called the, uh, Voodoo Warriors of the Pentagon, talking

• 1:11:22Speaker 05

  about us. And basically got it wrong. Well, this raised hell. See, nothing had happened when the article first broke, but now it's in the Washington Post and a bunch of other, you know, newspapers around the world. The voodoo warriors are, you know, wasting your money.

• 1:11:44Speaker 05

  Well, so I'm sitting at my desk, uh, in the bowels, and there literally are bowels in, in the Pentagon. And this guy comes roaring in, and he was from the Assistant Chief of Staff of, uh, Intelligence. And he goes, "Did you write this letter or this article?" "Yeah." "Well, don't you know the procedure for getting declared?"

• 1:12:12Speaker 05

  "Yeah." And I just happened to have the paperwork with me. I don't know why, but it was there. And he's screaming and going like, "Oh, you know, is this your office?" He goes, "Oh."

• 1:12:26Speaker 05

  So it had been cleared. Fast forward years later, I'm doing a session at INSCOM. And talking about somebody, seeing this guy raises his hand, he says, "Did you write an article in the Military Review?" He says, "Would you like to meet the guy who cleared it?" Apparently got his ass handed to him. So, what had happened, there was a whole thing, a bunch of things that intertwined, but we're in about 80, 81, 82. Serendipity.

• 1:13:09Speaker 05

  The wife of a retired Colonel is the friend of a wife of DEPCAC DEF. And she runs a workshop and, you know, conferences on weird stuff. And by now, I'm talking openly about what the Soviets are doing and whatnot. Still didn't know about the program. So, General Stillwell, retired, so he's back as a civilian. I think he's Deputy Secretary of Defense, maybe Undersecretary, but, you know, number two guy on the Pentagon, okay?

• 1:13:52Speaker 05

  So, through the wives, they get a call and they asked me to come up and brief him on this stuff. Now, Lieutenant Colonels, which I was at the time, do not go into the secretariat without a flag officer as a head bobber. Well, that didn't happen. And so, we went up and had a very nice, he says, "Well, who do you work for?" And I explained where I was. And, okay, so I went back to my desk, and oh, that was interesting. And about, this was around 1 o'clock that I came back, and about 4:20 that afternoon, our Chief of Staff comes in and says, "Tomorrow morning, you don't work here anymore."

• 1:14:36Speaker 05

  This guy had reached in and moved me.

• 1:14:40Speaker 05

  Had no idea the impact it would have and that's I went under Thurman initially, who was then the desk per personality was three star at that time. And then the stuff we were doing was getting darker and so that's when I moved over to Incom under Stubblebine.

• 1:15:00Shawn Ryan?

  I would like to rewind for just a minute.

• 1:15:03Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:15:04Shawn Ryan?

  So let's go back to you wrote the article about remote viewing out of body experiences that got published. What is it that led you to write that article? Because that sounds like a very important turning point in your career.

• 1:15:18Speaker 05

  Oh, no, it's a No, by this time I had been interested in phenomena of various sort. And one of the biggies was in quote the Bermuda Triangle and there was an area out there had dived on, we think was pre cataclysmic civilizations and so I had personal interest and when I was in Hawaii had done a number of talks and met with people and I was getting more actively involved. Some of the things go back even further.

• 1:15:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, in Thailand had gone out and met with, you know, their version of psychics also. In Vietnam, inside physically inside my camp was a Buddhist monastery. My main interpreter had been a Buddhist monk for six years. And so these are areas where we were, you know, talking on, you know, kind of extensively. So this, these kinds of things had led up to, like I say, writing the, the article.

• 1:16:39Shawn Ryan?

  Is there anything specific that was a profound experience?

• 1:16:43Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:16:44Shawn Ryan?

  Nothing?

• 1:16:45Speaker 05

  No. I was all talking to No epiphany.

• 1:16:48Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:16:49Speaker 05

  It was just kind of generic, more and more and more of the synchronicities keep happening, being in the right place at the right time and hearing about stories. Now by well, huge things had happened by the time I was at

• 1:17:05Speaker 05

  I think I'll sequence.

• 1:17:08Speaker 05

  Eighty. So I was, had become interested in near-death experiences. Trying to think of the, the sequence on that.

• 1:17:22Speaker 05

  I was getting, I had done a masters and I was getting ready, I was doing, working on a doctorate degree at the time. And was getting ready to grind out a dissertation, cause that's what you've gotta do. And this was one of these, this was a kind of a huge shift in thought here, but it's coincidental cause I was back at, now in Atlanta, Fort McPherson. And I went to a lecture by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, which was kind of interesting. And from that, I went to a life, death, and transition workshop that, that she was doing. And that was unique. I was on, just on leave, military hadn't sent me there, but

• 1:18:09Speaker 05

  about, um, half of the people who attended were, uh, medical of some kind, nurses, doctors, etc., interested in what she's talking about. And a quarter of people were like me, just kind of generically interested. The other quarter were dying. So, I mean, you talk about an emotionally charged experience, that was at my roommate, at, uh, where we were staying there, I forget, at the Midline Grand Loma, but he had, literally his face was being eaten off and, you know, and gonna be terminal and knew it, and a lot

• 1:18:54Speaker 05

  of the people were like that, so that was really powerful. So I came back and I was at McPherson and I just sent Elizabeth a letter and said, gee, that was really powerful. Thank you.

• 1:19:13Speaker 05

  So I'm in the office a few, about a couple of months later, the phone rings and it's Elizabeth's secretary and she says, now I'm getting ready to go to do, physically do the dissertation. And she says, look, Elizabeth is gonna be in Atlanta tomorrow. Can you meet her? She's got a few hours between flights. This was in the days where you could, you know, go out to the gates and all that. I said, well, yeah, sure. So anyway, she flies in and I meet her and she says, you know, I probably know a thousand people in Atlanta

• 1:19:55Speaker 05

  and I chose you to call and I have no idea why. I said, I think I'm supposed to ask you a question. Would you do the committee? She says, oh, yes. So like I said, you cannot program those kinds of things.

• 1:20:15Speaker 05

  The rest sort of is history, but it was a piece because she and Raymond Moody, who had, was the one who kind of wrote Life After Life and was talking about near-death experiences and that. In the meantime, yeah, well, when I'm in IG, I had met, we were doing teaching courses at Commander General Staff College and I was introduced to a guy, oh, this gets into the really weird stuff, but this was one of the most impactful near-death cases because it goes back to Vietnam. And what had happened...

• 1:21:04Speaker 05

  Jim, they were flying Cobras, you know how you, all the Cobras lined up, you have front, front seat and the backseat, he's front seat. And they're out alone, and normally you fly, you know, snakes went in pairs, you didn't fly alone. Well, they were flying alone, and went out over this forested area, and all of a sudden the 51 opens up on them. Hits thing, and breaks his leg, even the, check it there, and cuts the controls between the front seat and the backseat. And there's nothing in the area, there's a tiny area, but it's not big enough to auto-rotate

• 1:21:48Speaker 05

  into. So what they do is, he says, he pulls the nose up. Now, Jim says he pulls the nose up. Now, the point here is, we know the controls had been shot away between the front seat and the backseat, but he still brought the plane out. And the reason was to come in boom first, you know, this was not going to be good, but it, you know, it was to absorb the shock, kind of ameliorate the shock as you're coming down. The other important aspect is, you don't know the orientation of the helicopter because the blade's turning until after it's beaten itself to death on the ground. So, does that.

• 1:22:31Speaker 05

  And, well, Jim says the thing started, literally his face is burned off, the pilot, you know, the area had caught fire. Very bad day. Broken leg, face is burned, and so they hit, and next thing he knows, he's out of his body up above, and he can see the orientation of the helicopter, and this is what gets critical, and he can see that the wheels lined up off the nose about a click and a half out in front, this is a friendly fire support base. Jungle, all around them, other than that.

• 1:23:13Speaker 05

  But you have to have had the positions from above to look down to see the orientation. So, the backseat is out, and he's running away. The things, canopies, went this way. And he looks back, and about that time, Jim looks up. Oh, in the meantime, he's out of his body, he sees that, and there's a hooded figure. Describes as male, and not sure why, and he says, "What are you doing here?" He says, "Well, I'm trying to help them, not I'm in trouble or something." He says, "I'm trying to help them." And he says, "What, don't you know?" He says, "Know what?" "You're not dead yet." And with that, he lifts up.

• 1:23:54Speaker 05

  Backseat is running away, and sees Jim move, so he runs back and grabs him out. Says, "I thought you were dead, you haven't moved, you know, since we were hit." A lot of other stuff happened. But they get into an argument about, there's a fire support base, and the pilot's saying, "It's off this direction," and Jim is saying, "No, it's off this direction." And pain is now setting in, and he's not in the position to argue, and so he hides behind some higher, big anthills that are in the area. And about this time, VC's coming in, coming after them. And so the guy goes off in this direction.

• 1:24:39Speaker 05

  Jim hides, he'd actually decided to commit suicide if he was captured, because he knew wounded prisoners are not going to be treated well. But they miss him. Friendly base comes in, sends people out. They saw the crash, and they send somebody out. So now, they come in with a jungle penetrator. And this is the only case that I've had on this guy. So, he's lifted up, so he's now physically replicating his out-of-the-body position. And he can see the orientation of the helicopter, relative position to the fire support base, and say, "This guy's lost."

• 1:25:20Speaker 05

  And was able to, before he passes out, say, "By the way, the pilot went out over here." And they went out and found him.

• 1:25:28Shawn Ryan?

  Whoa, wow.

• 1:25:30Speaker 05

  But like I say, it's the only case I have where you have, you know, from an out of body perspective and then physically replicate it and find out how it's accurate.

• 1:25:41Shawn Ryan?

  Have you ever heard of that since then or is this is the only time?

• 1:25:46Speaker 05

  No, like I say, I know, well, later, again, I guess when I was in IG.

• 1:25:55Speaker 05

  No, it was after I joined NSCOM that I became the president of the International Association for Near Death Studies. So I've heard lots and lots of cases and we can get into some of those.

• 1:26:10Speaker 05

  But there are people who have had things that, you know, have been authenticated that they saw, but never one where they physically get taken up and it becomes life-saving.

• 1:26:24Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:26:27Shawn Ryan?

  I could see how that would capture your interest to write that article. So moving forward again, you write the article, general removes you from the unit and puts you in NSCOM. What does NSCOM stand for?

• 1:26:43Speaker 05

  Oh, Intelligence and Security Command.

• 1:26:46Shawn Ryan?

  What was your position at NSCOM?

• 1:26:49Speaker 05

  Well, they called it, well, the Chief of Human Technology. He created the position. People used to ask what I do and I said, well, I'm a freelance Colonel.

• 1:27:04Shawn Ryan?

  Chief of Human Technology.

• 1:27:08Shawn Ryan?

  That sounds fascinating.

• 1:27:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, we were looking at, and this is where we get into other aspects. You talked to Joe, the remote viewing program is going. Stubblebine is very interested.

• 1:27:24Speaker 05

  Funding is an issue that's pretty significant here because

• 1:27:31Speaker 05

  it was a time when you had a fair amount of. Funding that, you know, could be used. It's still true to some area, but discretionary funding, we didn't have to. And Bert was interested. And there's an important figure, by the name of Jack Houck, who comes into this. And Jack is at McDonnell Douglas at the time. And he had watched where he Geller had come up with the quote spoon bending process that is now popular.

• 1:28:14Speaker 05

  And so some friends, he used to come to Washington because he was also a CEO, did contract work for CIA. And so he was back and forth in Washington as we heard about this and he was just starting, he's got to be 82, just starting the spoon bending thing. And what he had found is that this was a teachable skill. And he had based it on the stuff that Geller was doing. But he was having parties and would invite groups of people in and we heard about that. We had one. So that's kind of, I told Sobeby about it and he said, well, let's see if we can do

• 1:28:59Speaker 05

  that. So I got ahold of Jack and invited him to, I was then in an apartment high rise in Washington, Northern Virginia area. And we have PK party. So we're sitting kind of on the floor, you know, log around, more or less a semicircle. And there were some significant people there. People look, know the history. Andrea Pohoric was there, if you know him, but this goes back into World War II, you know, where he was interested and had worked with the agency and, I mean, these are heavy hitters in the psych phenomenon and R and D area.

• 1:29:40Speaker 05

  And so Bert's sitting there, about much like we are now. And I had, there was a medium who was there, another one of the key people.

• 1:29:55Speaker 05

  Had been Rick Over's technical director and who knew the medium and brought her. But anyway, the way it works is you go through an hour or so and some of the stuff's physical, so it's hard to say whether that has any significance. But the graduate session, you end up holding two forks like this that are matched and no physical force. And so she's sitting directly across from Bert and her thing goes.

• 1:30:26Shawn Ryan?

  No way.

• 1:30:27Speaker 05

  With no physical force. That's who we had. Oh shit.

• 1:30:32Shawn Ryan?

  You saw this.

• 1:30:33Speaker 05

  This was real, yeah. Oh, I have had later experiences, but I learned how to teach it and ran these things for a while. But it was this thing, you know, like I say, in front of the commander just drops a full 90 degrees with no physical force. Said, need to look at this. So started doing serious studies and doing. And then, see, we had, we would have love-ins. We had O6 commands around the world. And so every quarter, the commanders would come in and discuss what are you going to do, what's going forward, what's happening, literally in the world at the time.

• 1:31:17Speaker 05

  Remember, this is the bad old days. We're still talking Soviet Union. And so he was very interested in, so I ended up running sessions for them, which was not always appreciated by the folks who was interested. But the point, because I always see a question, what are you going to do? Ben's tank barrels? And you go, no, computers. Computers are just emergent, move electrons. The thing about moving electrons. And the key issue there is I don't have to destroy, I just have to make computers unreliable.

• 1:31:59Speaker 05

  A lot of stuff there, but anyway, the big lesson that Bert wanted to get in, it really didn't have to do with the psychokinesis. It had to do with, don't eliminate things just because you don't understand it. See, we had been blindsided by the Soviets several times. Sputnik, for instance, was one. There were several others. Joe, did he talk about the submarine?

• 1:32:29Shawn Ryan?

  Yes, he did.

• 1:32:31Speaker 05

  I mean, that was one that was a, oh, wow. And the point was, we had all the information and our boat builders said, eh, don't believe it. You know, we never heard if it would go to depth, anything that big would crush, et cetera, et cetera. And we haven't, we didn't have any word at the time, the radically different Soviet subsystem. And as you know from the thing, he came out and he had laid out, you know, the tubes are forward of the sail and that sort of thing. So our point was that it happened to us on several occasions.

• 1:33:12Speaker 05

  And when you look back, you found out you had the information, but it had been disregarded. So the idea to these colonels was, don't just disregard something because you don't do it, because you've now had personal experience with things that happened that you didn't think could happen. And so that was one of the emphasis that.

• 1:33:37Shawn Ryan?

  What was that, what was that like for you to be in that room when that spoon hit ninety, I mean, what was the?

• 1:33:44Speaker 05

  That was an oh shit moment. That was a, yeah, because I had seen a little bit of bending before, but nothing that dramatic. Now I've seen even more dramatic since. There was one of these were love-ins we were doing at the Xerox Center.

• 1:34:04Speaker 05

  Uh, this is one where I can't send you the, I have the forks on it. But same thing, we're in a semi-circle and I'm doing it and there's grumbling. I mean, face it, there were people who didn't like the stuff going on. Uh, this had happened to be a lieutenant colonel who was a liaison from Europe, who was in the session and holds it up and same thing, the thing drops a full 90 degrees. And they scream and I'm going, but I did not see that. But I have a GS-18, the science advisor behind does. And so we're looking and there was the guy next to him that yelled and this thing just fell over.

• 1:34:48Speaker 05

  But then with everybody watching, it came back up, went down, came about halfway back up and stopped. I mean, literally wait, now that's the end of one. I've only seen that happen one time, but it was really significant. Had some other pretty good bending that happened that night, but absolutely no physical force and this thing moving, you know. Now, I said, I have them. The reason he put that down and he said, I wish that hadn't happened. I'm scared, normally we let people take the stuff home with them. And it scared him so badly that he just left it.

• 1:35:30Speaker 05

  And I, I still have those, uh, forks.

• 1:35:35Shawn Ryan?

  You still have them?

• 1:35:35Speaker 05

  I understand he went back to Europe. Uh, he was American, but you know, a liaison there and did it once more and just said, enough, don't want to do that again. Scared him. But fortunately, at the time, the initial incident, we had our shrink with us. We had to put him back together before we sent him home because it was that big a deal.

• 1:35:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Wow. What, um, you know, I have a, uh...

• 1:36:07Shawn Ryan?

  A handful of things that you guys were studying, it seems. I have a handful of things that you guys were studying at Incomm.

• 1:36:14Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:36:15Shawn Ryan?

  And one of them is the Hutchinson effect. Can you describe the Hutchinson effect?

• 1:36:24Speaker 05

  Not effectively.

• 1:36:27Speaker 05

  John Hutchison. There's a video, and I now have the tape of it. What had happened was George Hathaway, who's a double E from Toronto, and another guy came in, and they had a movie of these events happening. And the problem is not a single thing.

• 1:36:56Speaker 05

  Stuff would levitate. I mean, heavy items would levitate.

• 1:37:03Speaker 05

  Things would disintegrate. There was one photo, they had two pieces of wood with a rat tail file in between it, and it's just being exposed to this field effect. And you see the thing look like a filament on a light, you know, back in the old filament days there. And you see it light up, burn, and drop. It literally burns in two. More exciting, pick it up after and it's cold. And, you know, again, these are things that can, and there are any number of effects. John Hutchison is alive and well now in California.

• 1:37:44Speaker 07

  On a subatomic level, I feel that there is a dimension

• 1:37:49Speaker 07

  shift activated by very conventional electrostatics, RF fields that I use, and Tesla waves that I use, that actually form a keyway that opens up another area of time and space that may activate these zero-point energy fields and interdimensional reactions, let's say, to gravitational waves and time waves, or chronons, if you wish. Perhaps we're dealing in chronons and gravitons, which are maybe particles.

• 1:38:21Speaker 05

  At that time, he was in Vancouver, and I put him under contract to me to replicate.

• 1:38:31Speaker 05

  And the big problem, like with many of these phenomena, control.

• 1:38:36Speaker 05

  Still doesn't happen. Lots of strange things happen, but you can't control the event. Uh, they had others with PVC.

• 1:38:48Speaker 05

  Uh, exposed and the PVC disintegrate, parts of it disintegrate. He had a, uh, a drive shaft. By the way, the guy was a pauper. I mean, had no money, no, but he was interested in Tesla. So what he would do is he would look at pictures of Nikola Tesla and his, and try to figure out what they were doing. The only saving grace, he had all this crap that was in there was just. And fortunately Hathaway went in and actually kept records of what this was, but still couldn't control the thing.

• 1:39:30Speaker 05

  But you had metal, again, it's just exposed to a field that would twist and burn and, you know, some stuff would be affected, others wouldn't. And they could just totally, to this day, pretty much uncontrolled, though he's doing it. Um, this is one, I'll digress, but I think ought to be in there. We now have, the army has something called the future command. That is looking at the, you know, what's the war gonna look, it'll be very different. And I got in touch with them. I actually sent a letter to the commanding general. I mean, we did a number of these things. Think somebody ought to take a look.

• 1:40:14Speaker 05

  I had no thinking that the four-star general would get it, but I thought it would go to the staff or something. Have not even heard a peep out of them. I tried some, you know, we don't understand this stuff, but, you know, here's the roads we've been down, you know, wouldn't somebody be willing to take a look? Abject silence.

• 1:40:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, Hutchinson. Well, what happened was we had provided him with enough funding to move this thing. Well, the problem was he was living in a housing complex in Vancouver. And he would do this stuff. And what he would do is, by the way, how he found it is kind of interesting. What he wanted to do is to make sparks. He literally had Van de Graaff generators and things like that because he liked to sit there and sparks. The way he found it, threw something and this thing came flying out.

• 1:41:19Speaker 05

  And he picks it up and throws it back in and it comes flying out and going like, what's this? Well, the real problem was that he was working in the basement of an area. We think that the piping was probably part of it, but he was screwing up everybody's TV in the area. They did not like that. So made him move. I may have a, you know, it's not cable TV like you think of today. This was the stuff that went through the air at the time. So I got a whole other guy and he and George were working with him.

• 1:42:01Speaker 05

  And we said, okay, we're going to pay you to replicate this event. Okay? So they, they have a, they're in a warehouse that's totally empty and you can get all the way around it. And I, what I did is I gave them a bunch of metal. What I, I had various metal samples and had cut them in half. I was operating out of Fort Belvoir at the time. So half of the metal is in a safe at Belvoir and the other half that I sent to them.

• 1:42:41Speaker 05

  So we agreed to have show and tell. And I have a team of scientists, two of them from Los Alamos. And I promised not to denigrate anybody, but anyway, I had four others, including myself, so we go to show. So I arrive a day early, just want to make sure things are working, and they're really excited. Hey, we had this thing levitating. And so all we did was turn it off, leave everything setting. The idea was tomorrow we'll turn it back on and everything's right in place, even if it's unusual, it'll happen.

• 1:43:25Speaker 05

  They come in, we turn it on, and damned if the power supply doesn't catch fire and burn up on the spot. And it turns out there was no... So we spent the rest of the day, they were trying to find another power supply to it. The bottom line is, nothing happened during that. Now, in the meantime, Jack Houck again had given me some molybdenum rods. And the point was that molybdenum was, it was treated differently and had never had success with anybody trying to bend it. And I had given them rods, I had some parallel ones. Damned if they didn't give me one back with an S curve in it.

• 1:44:09Speaker 05

  How that happened, don't know. Interestingly, one of the questions was, were we looking at psychokinetic effects? Because I had asked John, are you part of the system? And he would say, yes. I'd get excited and it bends. But when I asked George about it, he says, no, it bends, or whatever happens, happens. And then he gets excited. So whether this is a macro PK event or whatnot, don't know. But there was certainly a series of very unusual things that were happening, and still happen, after...

• 1:44:56Speaker 05

  Well, since nothing happened in our experiments, we went back and damned if one of the two guys from Los Alamos didn't write this really nasty, I don't know if you know Tom Bearden or not, but he had a whole thing about how Tom had slipped into the country and done this, and it was just terribly convoluted. I mean, all he had to say was, we came, we saw, nothing happened, anything. Instead, this is very nasty gram and, you know, so yeah, we couldn't go forward, but Jack did get funding and do it, but similar sorts of

• 1:45:41Speaker 05

  things. The stuff would happen just outside the camera range and that. But it's like, almost like the ranch, strange things happen and you really can't explain it.

• 1:45:55Shawn Ryan?

  What year is, what year is this?

• 1:45:57Speaker 05

  Well, mine is, uh, it's gonna be 82, maybe 83. Um, I'm still in touch with him, though. That's, that's why I know he's got a lab in Northern California, but has a lot of health problems, but it's still continuing and gets, you know, the news come in and wow, and it's wonderful, but nobody has been able to, you know, establish the parameters and have it on a replica basis.

• 1:46:31Shawn Ryan?

  How long, so you get moved into InCom, and how long was it before you started seeing metal bending, levitation, um, deep particle, what do you, deep particleization?

• 1:46:46Speaker 05

  I can't give you the exact time.

• 1:46:48Shawn Ryan?

  Is this all happening at once?

• 1:46:49Speaker 05

  I'd have to go back and look because it depends on when Jack. It was all predicated on Jack coming to town and, as I say, doing the first one. And then the one that I orchestrated or set up with Subalvine. And Ann Gaiman is the one who had that thing drop on us. And it's about the same time, because I'm still working with Ions, totally civilian. This is near-death studies. Because remember driving up there and stuff being bent.

• 1:47:31Speaker 05

  In fact, the next one we actually had was the Ions board going, wow. See, the problem is, these things keep getting intertwined. It's not, you know, all sequential and that.

• 1:47:49Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. What, um, I have a couple other questions. What is primary perception?

• 1:47:56Speaker 05

  Oh, not a simple one. Primary perception has to do with a guy by the name of Cleve Baxter. Baxter's also fundamentally involved in that, because Hell, Foot, Off and them knew about him. And so he's one that kind of got remote viewing going. This was before Joe and that. That's the name that Cleve gave to the effect. Now, Cleve's history, during World War II, he'd been in counterintelligence in the army,

• 1:48:41Speaker 05

  went to CIA when it was formed, and was the guy who thought the polygraph system is still used. So he's teaching polygraphy.

• 1:48:55Speaker 05

  And because of that, he's got, you know, scientific equipment. So the initial question was, he was living in New York at the time, had large plants there. And he said, I, I wonder if when I pour water into here, how long does it take to get to the leaves? A simple, straightforward question, you know. So he hooks up his polygraph, what's it, uh, like a GSR, the galvanic skin response thing. It measures moisture, right? So he puts it on, on the leaf, pours the water in, watches it. But he leaves the thing hooked up.

• 1:49:36Speaker 05

  And the way that this is going through, so it's going out to the polygraph. So he's keeping track of, you know, when, when the moisture changes and that. Over time, just hooked up in his apartment, he was a bachelor and, and he notices this thing's wiggling from time to time. What, what is it that's causing it? I'm not pouring water in there. And so he, he came to the understanding that it reacted, the plant was reacting to the physical emotions of things around it at the time.

• 1:50:19Speaker 05

  And where the experiments got really interesting was, um, well, he, he started with, uh, went over and burned the leaf. And you get a response from the polygraph. Oh, that's weird. Says, then it got to the point where he would think about burning the leaf and the plants responding. And you're going, this is the primary, what is it that this guy's thinking about doing harm to a plant and it is physically responding in a way that can be monitored?

• 1:51:02Speaker 05

  A step beyond that was, he went into monitoring oral leukocytes, white cells from the mouth.

• 1:51:13Speaker 05

  And he was able to do, um, uh, he would take, take a, a person's sample, put it inside a Faraday cage, running through, he have electrodes in it that are running back through the polygraph that's being recorded, then he'd film it. And then the individual would be exposed. Sometimes what they do is have them send them home and say, watch certain TV programs because you know that certain emotional events are gonna happen, but you don't know when. So by recording them together, you're able to see that the leaves are responding to

• 1:51:56Speaker 05

  the emotional event that the person is observing at another location. Oh, it gets better, believe me. Is it in the same room? No. How does it know? Because the white cells are the connection. The person's white cells are being monitored, even though, now where we were interested, uh, I don't know, the joke over with General Dozier, that case, where he was kidnapped. Well, that was one of our interests. How, is there a way that you can monitor people at a distance if you had, say, the cells on, and simple things like alive or dead?

• 1:52:40Speaker 05

  You know, that would tell you, you know, what kind of rescue operations you might wanna launch. Uh, so it gets interesting. So one of the things I did was, again, I had Cleve under contract and I replicate the system at Fort Belvoir. It was really interesting. I, we went out there doing it. He was completely cooperative and showed us how to do it. So I had a senior scientist from a night vision lab go with me and to watch it because he's going to build the system for me. And so I said, okay, here's all the material, how it goes. And he goes, but there's a piece missing.

• 1:53:25Speaker 05

  I said, well, the piece missing is what I'll take care of. And in fairness, he said, look, I have chosen this much of the universe for me. You can move things about in there, but don't tell me I have to relearn physics because I don't want to hear it.

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

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• 1:53:55Speaker 02

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• 1:54:01Speaker 03

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• 1:54:05Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:54:08Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 1:54:09Speaker 02

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• 1:54:15Speaker 06

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• 1:54:45Speaker 05

  In fairness, he replicated it and I was replicating what Phil was doing or what Cleve was doing back at Fort Belvoir.

• 1:54:57Speaker 05

  So one of the times I went out to, uh, uh, he was in the San Diego area. So I, um, um, out there, well, we set up a three screen. So I'm the one who donates the cells. They've got me on the polygraph and on the video camera. And I let them screw around and get things that would be emotional. I could beat the polygraph, but not the white cells. I mean, the white cells said, there's an emotional contact on the polygraph is no deception indicated.

• 1:55:40Speaker 05

  Wow. Now, if you wanted the real wow, comes later. Um, so eighty-seven timeframe.

• 1:55:53Speaker 05

  Gerald Thurman, who's then the vice, uh, gets the National Academy of Science and National Research Council, and he knows that the army has been looking at a lot of weird stuff. And so he asked them to do a study of all of the unusual things we had doing. And I appeared before him several times. The initial is, you got the wrong group. Nice folks, all that, but there was only one person who knew anything about psi phenomena. And he was from a founding member of the skeptic society. I mean, he was, we could ask about him. That's Ray Hyman.

• 1:56:37Speaker 05

  We can discuss him later, but so I got the wrong folks. So we've told them about the various things that we're doing. And, um,

• 1:56:50Speaker 05

  So they're gonna have a meeting at Scripps, which happened to be in San Diego, say, "Hey, this is a good place we can do a show and tell." We will take him to Cleve's lab. By this time, Cleve is out in the San Diego area. He's running his polygraph school there. And he's on the sixth floor of a building. When I draw it, I usually, if you're looking from the top down, one wing is the classroom where these things are going. The other, actually where he lives and has all of this equipment going on. So, same thing.

• 1:57:33Speaker 05

  When you're doing a thing for the academy, you don't wanna know it worked yesterday. You wanna know things are working today. So I had arrived early, and the group is coming. And, um, so they agreed to take two of them. Well, what happens is, I donate cells, and we set it up, you know, so it's monitoring me. And then, so they come, and two of them go to the lab, and everybody else goes into the classroom where Cleve is gonna give a description. Now, Cleve was one of those people where you're asking what time it is, and you get the history of chronometers.

• 1:58:15Speaker 05

  So what happens is, I'm in there watching, and he says, "Oh, God." You know, he's just, you know, Cleve, you gotta get going, you know? You're losing these folks. Because he's gonna give kind of the history, and I'm gonna say, "By the way, I've independently replicated this at Fort Belvoir." So what happens is, finally, he gets off, and he gets my turn. So I stand up to talk, and I'm basically gotta hurry it up. And about 90 seconds, his lab assistant comes running in and says, "What happened 90 seconds ago?" And so that's when I started talking. And he says, "Well, this machine just went wild. I can show you these tapes."

• 1:59:00Speaker 05

  "It is now, it's just going on." Well, I can tell you that telling the National Academy of Science the universe is not built the way they think it is can be emotionally stimulating, because that's what I was telling them, you know? And so what happened is, and you see throughout the time that I'm talking, until they run in and they rip it off. Um, yeah, it just went wild and I am considerable distance from where we had forgotten that they were running because they were gonna set up to do somebody else.

• 1:59:32Shawn Ryan?

  So let me, let me, let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly. So you have a polygraph machine hooked up to your cells, to your white cells.

• 1:59:44Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:59:45Shawn Ryan?

  You have nothing hooked up to you.

• 1:59:47Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:59:48Shawn Ryan?

  When you get an emotional response.

• 1:59:50Speaker 05

  But I understand, I am a considerable distance away. There's a number of brick walls between me and that thing, yes.

• 1:59:59Shawn Ryan?

  So your emotional response is going, is communicating with the white blood cells in a completely separate room through brick walls. And the polygraph machine is measuring.

• 2:00:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:00:13Shawn Ryan?

  The emotional response.

• 2:00:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it went wild.

• 2:00:16Shawn Ryan?

  This is why you told me not to be messing around with photons and electrons the other day on the phone, isn't it?

• 2:00:23Speaker 05

  Well, there is no rational explanation for why. We had, I had done it at 50 miles or so. It was from Belvoir to Arlington Hall. At that time, NSCOM was at Arlington Hall Station. And I had the lab set up down at Fort Belvoir. So I am going to see Stubblebine. And I know I'm gonna tell him no to something he does not want to hear. And sure enough, you know, now this isn't one where you have the instantaneous, you know, absolute control.

• 2:01:05Speaker 05

  But I drive up there and you definitely see a response to my cells, you know, 50 miles.

• 2:01:12Shawn Ryan?

  50 miles?

• 2:01:14Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:01:15Shawn Ryan?

  50 miles.

• 2:01:16Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:01:20Speaker 05

  But see, when we calculate primary perception, we don't think distance should make any difference. So it's not physical difference. It's, you know, what is the connection? And in this case, we do know that's between the cells that are being monitored, and they're responding to the emotional state of the donor.

• 2:01:47Shawn Ryan?

  Is this like particle entanglement? What is this?

• 2:01:53Speaker 05

  Could be.

• 2:01:59Speaker 05

  Unless it's Bell's theorem, you spin one way, and distance should not make a difference.

• 2:02:05Shawn Ryan?

  What's the farthest you guys tested this?

• 2:02:08Speaker 05

  Well, that was probably that 50. Yeah, from Bellville to Arlington. And again, that's not nearly as exact. The real exact one, again, was when we were in the building. And again, straight line distance, you had, you know, two brick walls and several internal walls between us and the equipment.

• 2:02:40Shawn Ryan?

  What did the spectators think about that?

• 2:02:46Speaker 05

  The report came out, and there was no word whatsoever mentioning it.

• 2:02:51Shawn Ryan?

  Nothing?

• 2:02:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:02:54Speaker 05

  It was just totally ignored.

• 2:02:56Shawn Ryan?

  What are your thoughts about the plants at the time responding to human emotion?

• 2:03:02Speaker 05

  Not a word.

• 2:03:04Shawn Ryan?

  What did you think?

• 2:03:08Speaker 05

  Oh, well, that's what got us interested. And then, you know, from beyond, that's interesting, but what can you do with this?

• 2:03:16Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think it means humans can communicate with plant life?

• 2:03:19Speaker 05

  Oh, absolutely. There's no doubt about that. And Chris Byrd wrote books. I mean, there's several books written on that. And the same with plants come in or respond to music and things of that nature.

• 2:03:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, but we thought, again, the more interesting aspect was not just the plants. Well, we're getting some very fundamental issues, but the whole deal of the role of consciousness, and that everything really is interconnected in ways that we couldn't possibly imagine.

• 2:04:01Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. What, let's keep going down some of these, some of these different things that you guys studied. What is neuro-linguistic programming?

• 2:04:12Speaker 05

  Interestingly, the NLP, or neuro-linguistic programming, was the one thing that this panel said probably had some application.

• 2:04:31Shawn Ryan?

  They said none of the other stuff had any practical application?

• 2:04:37Speaker 05

  Well, they, they believed NLP because the amount of research they went into was, it's, now, okay, this was invented by John Grinder and Richard Bandler. A little publicity, but there's a new movie out called Altered States by Richard Bandler, which addresses all of these, and yeah, I'm in it, with some others who did have practical application. It is, that there is a physical response that's stored in the body. And you may have heard of things like anchoring, or imaging, mirroring, and things, how do

• 2:05:22Speaker 05

  you increase compatibility between one person that has very practical applications? Now, the issue, when, when it was formed, what they did is they looked at Fritz Perls, Virginia Satir, and Ericson. And the question was, why is it that these people have very rapid success in treating individuals? And people who take their techniques and, you know, continue on, you know, the effects kind of dissipate.

• 2:06:01Speaker 05

  And so they had come up with kind of a, basically it was a critical path model. Of saying, these three people were the primary ones. That you were doing certain things that others people don't follow up on exactly enough. Now, we're, so many applications. One of them was that, again, the bad old days. We had things called LTs, or legal travelers. And this is where you're getting into the spy routine. And they were interested, so you, since somebody comes out from the Soviet Union,

• 2:06:46Speaker 05

  they can, it's known that they're coming out, they're going back, this went to legal travelers, going back and forth. So you want to know, did KGB count them and turn them? So you've got to be able to reestablish rapport very quickly. And they were using these techniques for that. And of course, then they're doing polygraph and all of the other things on it. But that was one of the, you know, practical applications. I had Richard Bandler under contract, I'm convinced he's the real brain, John Grinder, and another guy you may know called Tony Robbins.

• 2:07:28Speaker 05

  And these guys were under contract to us. So our practical application, we did something called Project Jedi. One of, this was multi-agency that was running. And one of the things all agencies had together was they shot things. And the other is that it's highly quantifiable. You hit the target, you didn't hit the target, there's no, I feel better, I didn't. Now, remember that when NLP was formed, it was formed to fix broken people, i.e. help in therapeutic modalities. Our question was, we got really good people, how do we make them better?

• 2:08:12Speaker 05

  And so, kind of a different application to it.

• 2:08:17Speaker 05

  So in Jedi, what we did is, we said, okay. We went out to the world, could have got anybody. Said, who's the best pistol shooters in the world? And the answer came back, you ought to be looking at the Army Marksmanship Unit. So we brought in the Army Champion, the inter-service champion, and their boss, and worked with them. In fairness, Tony was one of the ones working with us. But we went through the whole model of how do you shoot? Also, key was, what do you think about shooting? And for them, shooting's a good thing.

• 2:08:58Speaker 05

  You can protect your life, you can make a living off of it, and all of that. Physically, we would have them shoot, and you could get them way the hell off balance, and they would hit the target pretty well. But there was vast difference in their technique. When they came in, one of them, he came in, he opened the box, put on his glasses, did a whole bunch of... If you interrupted him, took his hat off, put the glasses on, went back to... Another one would go, "Yeah, okay," and he'd go back to shooting. So obviously, all this other stuff is not critical.

• 2:09:41Speaker 05

  But we developed what we called, basically, the Critical Path Model. What is it that makes a good shooter? And then we took two groups of people, they were split, kind of paired samples. They were all military. Many of them had never shot a .45 before. And the other thing about .45 is, people would say, you know, it's a terrible weapon, you'd do better throwing it than shooting it. So we took a group, we designed a process using NLP. And then we took one group that we trained, one group that the Army Marksmanship Unit trained using their procedure.

• 2:10:28Speaker 05

  Our problem became that everybody had qualified using the NLP technique within the first day. By noon the next day, everybody was shooting expert. I mean, there was no place to go. The Army Marksmanship Unit went their four and a half day course and shot. So we got an obvious advantage in ammunition and those sorts of things right off the bat. The other thing that we did do, though, is we took, a lot of it was visualization. Well, I'll give you one of the big aha. And credit Tony for coming up with this. It was called the success cycle.

• 2:11:13Speaker 05

  The point here was normally when you shoot, you put the thing out 25 meters, whatever, and shoot until you hit the target and then keep going. We didn't do that. Targets started at point blank range. And you could not miss. That's why we call it the success model. You could not fail. And then kept moving it back until you were doing it. So you learn success from the beginning. And that was really critical. And like I say, within day and a half, we got everybody at the expert level on it. And it was unfortunate.

• 2:11:55Speaker 05

  We had started into another project right after that, besides shooting. One of the questions that came up, again, we're in the battle days and we're, the Soviets are still there and they had an issue with NSA and listening. See, what they would do, remember there's a FIST. You know, they're using Morse code and sending things. And yeah, everything is encrypted, but there was a lot of background chatter. Before they would start sending the message, you know, hi, how are you, blah, blah, blah. And they got to learn people what they called FIST. The problem was, well, there were two.

• 2:12:37Speaker 05

  One, the Soviets were much faster than our people. They're going 60 words a minute and our, they're kind of maxing at 2025. The big problem was we sent people to school.

• 2:12:52Speaker 05

  And by the time, you know, they would go to school for a long time, go on leave, report to the next unit, they have to be retrained. The skills were not training. The big aha was we were asking the wrong questions. The selection criteria was who are smart people, that's good. Who can type, that's probably pretty good. The critical question, what kind of stereo equipment do you have? The point is, what you were looking for, and they didn't know it, were audiophiles, people that hear differently.

• 2:13:36Speaker 05

  That was a critical component to it. As opposed to can you type and are you smart?

• 2:13:43Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean, people that, what do you mean, people that hear differently?

• 2:13:48Speaker 05

  Well, the reason people are audiophiles, and I've got one, I mean, you see the extent of his equipment, it just blows me away. I mean, being deaf, I just can't hear very much anyway. But these people were, you know, had very finely attuned hearing and were investing in that, in the kinds of equipment that they would buy just on their own. So that was the critical question is, now, you could have, and we did not go. We ended up getting, it's about the time that Bert got terminated. We had to end, end the studies. But, um,

• 2:14:33Speaker 05

  yeah, it was just the things you, these were kind of out of the blue sort of things that you would not have anticipated, but you could learn. Again, you're, like, the basic thing is a critical path model and knowing what you're looking for. It has tremendous, I forget, no, what he, some of the things I saw Richard do, and again, I'm still in contact and, uh, whatnot with him.

• 2:15:03Speaker 05

  We had a guy who was working with us, who was CIA. Name's Andre. He was the only guy who got captured in Lebanon that we got back alive. And of course, after that, he, you know, couldn't go back undercover and that because he'd been captured. And what happened? He says, well, cavalry came over the hill at just the last second because they were about to do him in. But the point there is, this is really a strong emotional event. And we were able to go back and recreate history as if that event never happened.

• 2:15:46Speaker 05

  Now, these are fairly sophisticated techniques and that, but you're literally changing the history and got him to where he could pass a polygraph as if he had never been kidnapped.

• 2:15:56Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding.

• 2:15:58Speaker 05

  So, like I say, it's very significantly applications that were there.

• 2:16:09Shawn Ryan?

  Are they still studying these?

• 2:16:11Speaker 05

  Who is they?

• 2:16:12Shawn Ryan?

  The government, whatever programs.

• 2:16:14Speaker 05

  Not as far as I know. And as I said, I know Richard, I talked to him a few months ago and he was in Vegas. Now, they do teach commercial courses that are available. Now, this is one of the problems, this is why I mentioned before, if agents come in, trying to explain to them, you know, what we did, where to go, were you successful? There were failures too, of course, but, you know, trying to get them to not have to relearn history, but we have a propensity for reinventing wheels on a continuous basis.

• 2:16:51Shawn Ryan?

  There's a story about a turtle.

• 2:16:54Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 2:16:55Shawn Ryan?

  Can you tell us that?

• 2:16:56Speaker 05

  Oh, no, no, that's.

• 2:17:00Speaker 05

  That's a little different. Turtle was the name, the guy who fills a slot behind you and comes up behind you. And that was one where the guy who had taken my position as an S1 in Hawaii, and I bumped into him years later, and he had been assigned to the Military Personnel Center. Now, I understand, from the time I went to CGSC, until I retired, I was never assigned by the system. It was always one general to another, and then he

• 2:17:45Speaker 05

  would tell him, you know, fix it. And I happened to bump into him, and I knew he was at Mil Person, and he says, you know, I had to keep your file in my drawer for like no month, because nobody knew what to do with it. No place to put it.

• 2:18:04Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. So, how long, how long were you at NSCOM?

• 2:18:13Speaker 05

  Not sure, two or three years.

• 2:18:15Shawn Ryan?

  Two or three years?

• 2:18:15Speaker 05

  What happened is Stubblebine was forced into retirement, and they knew I couldn't stay there, because the guy coming in, Ed Soyster, had taken his place, who was not, of all things, he was an artillery officer, not even an intelligence officer. But the big system was not happy, and the program had morphed and now gone to DIA. And, yeah, they knew that I would not survive in that environment. So, this is when I went, it was the same thing, it was a personal handoff. We went and found there was a three-star

• 2:18:58Speaker 05

  at Army Material Command, who was amenable to these sorts of things. And so, I went to work for them. So, mostly saying, you got to, really had a day job. And that was definitely true when I got to AMC and all the UFO stuff and that.

• 2:19:25Speaker 05

  During the period at NSCOM, that was when I had a lot more flexibility, but did the other things, most of the time had, you know, an assignment you could fall back on.

• 2:19:39Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:39Speaker 05

  More than a cover story, but you actually did the job.

• 2:19:42Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. What, were you also studying out of body experience when you were at NSCOM?

• 2:19:51Speaker 05

  Well, you know, the, I actually, I'm familiar with sensory deprivation. I actually had a sensory deprivation tank, that, because when you get into near-death experiences, and remember, this where all these things, the time plane, then back and feathers, so you have civilian and military applications concurrently in, in many areas. Um, yeah, in, in EDEs, near-death experience, uh, autoscopic, what they call is seeing your body from being outside is one of the critical things.

• 2:20:33Speaker 05

  And then one of the issues that had come up with remote viewing is, you know, where's consciousness? And there are some studies, um, what's the guy's name? It was a guy at Monomies had, had done some studies and they were wondering, uh, whether or not is consciousness as we know it is here, or is it physically at the location? And is that a requirement? Alex Tanis is the guy's name. And the experiments there, where, where they had him, you know, because he said, "I'm going out of my body."

• 2:21:14Speaker 05

  And what they did is they put a, a different location, inside the same building. They had a target, but the target was generated in such a way, they had like wheels and things that would show up. The only way you could see the proper one is to physically...

• 2:21:36Speaker 05

  Your point of origin was at one location, otherwise the other things wouldn't line up correctly. They also put in strain gauges to sense, is there something, or something there? You can argue what that something is, but it talks to the potential for a physical interaction as opposed to just pure consciousness or pure thought. And they were able to prove pretty conclusively that, you know, at the time that he would report being out of body, that they were sensing something at the point, and then

• 2:22:18Speaker 05

  he could accurately, most of the time, report, not a hundred percent. And that's one of the problems, a lot of these things are never a hundred percent sort of thing. But in order to see the representation and report on it correctly, the point of origin had to be at this known location, which suggested that, yeah, it was out of body. And again, you know, this is something that's reported quite frequently as part of near-death experience, but not necessarily all of them. You had a recent guest, I don't want to put him on the spot or speak for him, but Ryan

• 2:23:02Shawn Ryan?

  Hendrickson.

• 2:23:04Speaker 05

  Who has an experience, and I've talked to him since, I found it absolutely fascinating, I recommend it to everybody, a very inspirational kind of event. But steps on an IED in Afghanistan, literally blows his leg off. But what interested me in the words that I heard there is he's talking about the life review, about being able to see this thing, and I've been able to talk to, I won't go into it because he can discuss it if he wants, but it was very much... His perception is a little different from most of them, but it was, you know,

• 2:23:44Speaker 05

  that he understood not only the event, but how that event impacted others from an emotional standpoint. And that is also one of the common features of many near-death experiences. I'll tell you that there's never anything that's absolute 100%. I mean, many of these things have infinite variations. But, you know, the question was, I hope Joe mentions some, because he talks about some of the things that happened to him and that being, one of the questions that's come up

• 2:24:27Speaker 05

  is, can you sense an out-of-body or a consciousness being there? And there's a whole field on how do you do psychic protection to protect the individual, protect yourself if you're doing those sorts of things?

• 2:24:42Shawn Ryan?

  Have you come up with any conclusions?

• 2:24:46Speaker 05

  None of these have conclusions.

• 2:24:49Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:50Speaker 05

  No. Now, what we do, and one of the big issues that's come up on Skinwalker, you've probably heard about the hitchhiker effect of where things have followed some of these people. And what I did last time I was at the ranch, do certain protections, Native American smudging, for instance, as an example. I talked to Colin Kelleher, who's one of the key people, particularly in the OSAP program. And he was at NIDS, we were there at the same time, and spent a lot of time at the ranch.

• 2:25:34Speaker 05

  And so they would go through kind of protective measurements, and this is in the "if you believe" category, but can't hurt.

• 2:25:44Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. I have a question. At your time at NSCOM, you're studying all these things, out-of-body experience, remote viewing, primary perception, the Hutchinson effect, neuro-linguistic programming. How are you recruiting your subjects?

• 2:26:05Shawn Ryan?

  These people that have these abilities that can bend metal, that can remote you, how are you finding them?

• 2:26:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's, A, there weren't, damn, we didn't actually do recruiting now.

• 2:26:22Speaker 05

  I mean, with Clave, the subjects basically were me.

• 2:26:28Speaker 05

  You know, I would, it's like we get into non-lethal weapons and that. I do these things. I've been shot by all the systems and when we were doing it,

• 2:26:39Speaker 05

  I go out and do these things.

• 2:26:44Speaker 05

  The same with Hutchison. Yeah, I was the one directly involved in getting them, bringing in other scientists, but basically as observers to authenticate that, you know, what we were getting was real.

• 2:27:01Speaker 05

  The one where we did the pistol shooting that I mentioned and Project Jedi,

• 2:27:08Speaker 05

  not sure how, but we were able to get maybe 30 people. I'm not sure exactly how we did that. I remember, we're talking almost 40 years ago. In some cases, it is 40.

• 2:27:24Shawn Ryan?

  The reason I'm asking is because if,

• 2:27:30Shawn Ryan?

  we could put something out right now saying, hey, we want people, we want people to email in to this email, if you have an ability that you can bend metal.

• 2:27:43Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know the percentage. I would assume that 99% of the people that email in are completely full of shit. And so that's kind of, that's kind of what, how did you sift through and find these people?

• 2:27:54Speaker 05

  What you're arguing to here or discussing. Is the difference between Soviet approach and our approach. And that was one of the key things that, you know. The question was, do I take intelligence people and teach them to be psychics? Or have those capabilities? Or do I take psychics and teach them the additional skills? The Soviet approach was to go out with a broad net and look for people with the skills and then bring them in. Ours was, I think, much more constrained. And if you look at the people who were brought into the program,

• 2:28:37Speaker 05

  a lot of them didn't know they had these capabilities.

• 2:28:41Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 2:28:42Speaker 05

  And one of the things in the program, you mentioned Stargate, because that's the best known. It had a number of names before that. But they were doing personality tests specifically to address your question. Where do you look? You know, do you find people? And they did find MBTI was something we used. Myers-Briggs Type Indicator was one of several ones that...

• 2:29:11Shawn Ryan?

  What is that? What is that?

• 2:29:15Speaker 05

  Well, it's a very well-known psychological instrument that has the 16 categories of, you know, I'm an INTP.

• 2:29:27Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:29:29Speaker 05

  But looking for, when they tested the people who had these innate capabilities. Now, there's another question that has come up. And that is, is it better to find a natural? Or can you train the capability? And that's where the guy you interviewed yesterday, Joe McMonigal, is quote, "a natural." And he was remote viewer 001, and I'm sure described all that.

• 2:30:01Speaker 05

  We found other people, well, did he go into Ingalls Swan? Because what happened was, one of the three people that SRI used initially was an artist in New York, Ingalls Swan, and he came up with his context of the Matrix. So the critical question is, is this a trainable skill? And now, there are people out there now, in the world, teaching remote viewing. And there are people who do it naturally. And I would argue that it's like all skills. Everybody has some skill at love, but, you know, I'm never gonna run a four-minute mile.

• 2:30:46Speaker 05

  You know that. So there are, you know, can I get better? Yeah. And that's true with most people. Do people have psychic experiences in it? Absolutely. Do they recognize them? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of people who will deny it, but, you know, when you get into it, you know, the thing, the phone ringing, knowing who it is. That was before we had caller ID. But there were things like that that made sense. So I don't want to take anybody's living away, but it's, you know, can you improve? Yes. Are you going to be a Joe McMonigal?

• 2:31:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, probably not, depending on where you are. And so, having natural skills. We saw, by the way, one of the things that came up in near-death experience. Initially, we thought you had a discrete event that happened in a very short period of time. And that was a precipitating event that might have happened, accident, illness, whatever. What we found, over time, is many of these people increased in psychic capability. We had a lot of them who became particularly psychokinetic. I couldn't wear sensitive electronic equipment or being around that.

• 2:32:11Speaker 05

  Became telepathic, became precognitive, and that seemed to increase after, so you know these events are happening out there.

• 2:32:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, can you enhance it? Yes. Can we program it? Are there potential dangers? Yeah, there are. And that's a piece that nobody wants to talk about. You know, I don't know if you use this, but my digression, he'll talk because he's dead, was Sobelblin, who, after retirement, and we were, we stayed friends for a long time. And he went off the cliff. And one of the dangers we've seen when I had put together the UFO group,

• 2:33:04Speaker 05

  one of the things we agreed to do was to watch each other, specifically because we had some people literally go crazy and say, you know, if you see somebody going off the cliff, you can, you'll say, you're going off the cliff. Doesn't mean you pull them back or stop them, but we agreed that we would watch each other. And if you see the symptoms, do it. And there were several that, um,

• 2:33:33Speaker 05

  yeah, just, there's no other word for it, but, uh...

• 2:33:36Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:33:41Shawn Ryan?

  So a lot of, all of this has to do with human consciousness?

• 2:33:44Speaker 05

  With what?

• 2:33:45Shawn Ryan?

  All of this has to do with human consciousness, obviously.

• 2:33:51Shawn Ryan?

  The stuff with the plant really gets me. The plant.

• 2:33:57Shawn Ryan?

  Do plants have consciousness?

• 2:33:59Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:34:01Speaker 05

  Well, let me drop back even further than that. And this is a fundamental issue. Are you familiar with Max Planck? German physicist and that? And use his quote or approximation is that consciousness is fundamental. You cannot get behind consciousness. And the implication here is that the physical arises from the consciousness, as opposed to consciousness arising from the physical, i.e. being something that's generated in the brain.

• 2:34:38Speaker 05

  We're in the deep philosophical kinds of things, but that's pretty, pretty profound.

• 2:34:45Shawn Ryan?

  Yes.

• 2:34:45Speaker 05

  Because everybody has thought, you know, I think therefore I am. No, you am therefore you think is kind of more appropriate, but it gets into, you know, just everything. Everything is interrelated at a level that's almost definitely impossible for humans to contemplate. It's that big.

• 2:35:16Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know whether to have this conversation right now or wait till the end because I know we have so much more to cover, but where do you think?

• 2:35:23Speaker 05

  We can move it. Besides, they can cut and splice.

• 2:35:26Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Where do you think consciousness exists?

• 2:35:30Speaker 05

  Oh, consciousness is. We exist because of consciousness, not the other way around.

• 2:35:43Shawn Ryan?

  Is consciousness?

• 2:35:44Speaker 05

  See, if there's a big bang, I happen to have some problems with that, but it says that consciousness created that and everything. The physical universe evolved from consciousness.

• 2:36:00Shawn Ryan?

  All right, John, we had spoken on the phone a little bit about some of the intelligence failures that you're aware of, and I would like you to expound on that a little bit here on the show.

• 2:36:12Speaker 05

  Well, there are various, well, there are certain ones we can go into Vietnam, but the one I was explaining that led, I was invited to a classified conference down at MacDill on future technology. And we listened to, oh, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. So finally, I'm sitting there as a... Has anybody heard of Purple Rain? Which is not the name of the program, but uh I got this blank stare and whatnot. I said, "Well, your future technology, we deployed 30 years ago." You know, where is the institutional memory?

• 2:36:55Speaker 05

  So uh Pete Skumacher was then the CINC. We still had CINC of SOCOM and I wrote him a letter and said, "You know, here's an example, but somebody needs some oversight here. We need a graybeards panel of people who remember some of these things." Because across the board in SOF units, operating in small, you know, small groups, information goes around, they're very innovative, so some, a lot of these things work. But if you're gonna get this out, there has to be some way to, you know, make the information more available. And the result was that he set up a panel, like I described, with people from various

• 2:37:40Speaker 05

  elements of the SOF thing that could come in and look at these various technologies. And that went, we did that for several years.

• 2:37:52Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of technologies?

• 2:37:56Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, like I say, this is one, yeah, that's been uncovered now. Um specifically, they were looking at ammunition that would explode.

• 2:38:07Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:38:08Speaker 05

  And uh the new idea was that we would insert information uh or ammunition into enemy stockpiles. And we actually did that uh in Vietnam. We had, you know, the 762, their calibers, the stuff for their AKs and others. And you would take, in this case, an entire clip and one or two rounds would be, so you could fire it and then it would, you know, blow up on them. And the idea was not just blowing up individual weapons, it was obviously uh making them question the reliability of the system.

• 2:38:49Speaker 05

  So you're attacking something much bigger than just blowing up a uh single weapon. But that was a specific example and we used to do that. I carried a certain round, or clips with me that when we found a cache... Would leave some behind and then I had to report, uh, you know, by the grid coordinates as to where that went in.

• 2:39:13Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 2:39:16Speaker 05

  And again, nobody, when you, when you ask the, these young, bright, innovative folks, thought it was probably a neat idea, but also thought they thought of it.

• 2:39:28Shawn Ryan?

  That was happening all the way back then. I did not know that.

• 2:39:32Speaker 05

  Well, and my concern is that those sorts of things still are. Uh, because like I say, information does not get spread. It gets spread, you know, word of mouth people who are from the, you know, A-team, oh, we did this and, but we have a propensity for reinventing wheels.

• 2:39:49Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm. I'm a hundred percent.

• 2:39:51Speaker 05

  I'm sure that's in TTP too.

• 2:39:55Speaker 05

  What works, what doesn't work.

• 2:39:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:58Speaker 05

  And unfortunately, that often produces casualties and you're finding out better ways to do things.

• 2:40:05Shawn Ryan?

  So you're saying there needs to be, it's, it's funny you say this because I, I know everybody thinks that this exists, but you're talking about a centralized location where lessons learned, new tactics, future technologies is all centralized and then disseminated into...

• 2:40:24Speaker 05

  There are historical units, but they tend to capture the big picture sorts of things. And this is one that would never have come up unless they thought it was a technology to be developed and then, uh, spread out. Uh, you know, on, uh, A-teams and I'm sure on SEAL teams, the way the old guys teach the new ones and that. One of the big things that I think changed between my era in, uh, Vietnam and, uh, Iraq and Afghanistan is we deployed as individuals most of the time. Uh, I went as Delta Company of the first and we went into Thailand, but that's because we were creating the unit, uh, there later became 46 Company.

• 2:41:10Speaker 05

  But in Vietnam, we rotate as individuals. So you didn't have the traditional camaraderie that you have where a whole unit sticks together and moves and has common experiences. You had people that were constantly rotating in and out and had to make up the team. And, you know, as you know, these teams work closely.

• 2:41:32Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:41:32Speaker 05

  It relies on, you know, personal experience and who you think's reliable and who not.

• 2:41:40Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh. Very true, very true. You know, that's something that we, we ran into a lot of problems that could have been solved if there would have been a centralized location for stuff like that where there was disseminated because you have stuff that's, you have lessons learned and new, new, new, new, new tactics, new whatever, you know, within just your team, your, your platoon. And then you have team wide, which is, you know, a handful of platoons. Then you have your coast of SEAL teams. Then you have SOF in general, you know, Special Operations Forces in general of all the different units and, and, and yeah, there is some stuff

• 2:42:24Shawn Ryan?

  that gets disseminated out to each team. But I mean, even, even lessons like, like I can give you an example.

• 2:42:30Speaker 05

  Personality independent.

• 2:42:31Shawn Ryan?

  I can give you an example.

• 2:42:32Speaker 05

  Have you got the right people at the right place and interacting?

• 2:42:36Shawn Ryan?

  Like an example that's, that, you know, that we had was, I mean, Iraq in 2005, we're using green tip armor piercing rounds against people that don't wear armor. And it takes a lot more bullets to put somebody down with armor piercing rounds when they don't have armor than it does to use something like a 77 grain 556 round, you know, something with a lot, with a lot more weight and not as much velocity behind it. But, but we had

• 2:43:16Shawn Ryan?

  to find out the hard way, unfortunately. And, and, you know, and that's 2005. That's four years after the war started. You would think that that. Would have been disseminated long before that. And so I'm just 100% in agreement with you there.

• 2:43:37Speaker 05

  One of the things that we found was, again, things you ought to know, but I'll give you a specific case. Sergeant Logan, he was down on New Icoto that I mentioned before, and they were doing a sweep. And called back, we're the closest camp, and gave me his location with a makeshift code. I think it was Big Nuts Joe or something like that. And he goes in, well, I looked, I just looked at, no, no, I know where you are. I mean, I didn't, you know, deed anything to break it, just looking at, not even knowing which

• 2:44:17Speaker 05

  one he was using. Somebody else was listening that night, and they did not make the morning. One of the tough things was Sergeant Logan, and years later, I was at Fort Hood, and I forget how it was, but ended up having to go visit his mother. And, you know, that's tough.

• 2:44:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:44:48Speaker 05

  Well, we had another one. Again, this is using the same things and assuming everything's going to be okay. I mentioned that we had company on top of New Icay, at the bottom, and that every month, they would go up and stay up a month. And the word, of course, would get out when we were going to do that. And there's one, well, three guys got hit. There was a changeover point where the ones would come down, they would meet, but they

• 2:45:27Speaker 05

  always used the same place. And turned out it was mine. There was a guy by the name of Larry Schmidt. Well, there were three guys. Schmidt is the one who took a CBU right next to his leg.

• 2:45:44Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 2:45:44Speaker 05

  Absolutely shredded him. And we went in, well, all three of the Americans that were up there were hit. Unfortunately, one of them thought we would leave him and threw a smoke grenade, which was tall grass and set the fire, set it on fire. And fortunately, there had been a Huey that was at Chowduck and they came down and picked me up and we went in and rappelled in, not knowing we were rappelling into a minefield.

• 2:46:15Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 2:46:17Speaker 05

  But, yeah, I had to pick, uh, eventually he lost his leg. It also turns out that they had more than just the mines. I didn't learn until a number of years later that we were taking direct fire from a recoilless rifle that they had in there and actually didn't realize when it hit the helicopter when I had put Schmidt on there and they were able to get down, but it was unserviceable by the time it was.

• 2:46:49Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 2:46:50Speaker 05

  But that was a failure of doing the same thing and thinking we did this, it'll be okay, you know, you can keep doing these things without, you know, somebody else learning. The other, like I said, with Logan, our assumption that you could talk on the radio, well, we had people who could speak English pretty well, that were just listening. I'm sure you run into that. I had mentioned earlier our problem, we had a fair number of folks we knew that were not loyal to us at the time, too. I said probably 10% of the.

• 2:47:28Shawn Ryan?

  That's a lot.

• 2:47:29Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:47:30Shawn Ryan?

  It only takes one.

• 2:47:31Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:47:32Shawn Ryan?

  It only takes one. But, yeah. Well. John, you had mentioned that there are, there are possible dangers to out-of-body experience. What, what would those dangers be?

• 2:47:51Speaker 05

  Well, again, you're in the highly, you know, theoretical area and the question is, you know, can you be identified being out there?

• 2:48:06Speaker 05

  There is a, um, an issue of, once you're out of your body, can you get back? The cute story I tell about, um, you know, Bob Monroe, because people would come to him and say, you know, can you guarantee you can take you out of the money, out of my body? And he says, yeah, I said, oh, oh, good. He says, you understand it's permanent.

• 2:48:30Speaker 05

  So, uh, but, you know, can you get lost out there? I think, you know, probably not, but there are people who are concerned about those things. And, um,

• 2:48:41Speaker 05

  uh, it's certainly an area that we don't understand.

• 2:48:44Shawn Ryan?

  That's an interesting point. Has there been a report or do you know anybody that had troubles finding their way back?

• 2:48:55Speaker 05

  If people have had trouble, I can't know of anybody who's got lost, because we haven't heard from them.

• 2:49:01Shawn Ryan?

  Guess not.

• 2:49:04Shawn Ryan?

  You have heard from people that got lost?

• 2:49:06Speaker 05

  Well,

• 2:49:09Speaker 05

  yeah, well, lost, uh,

• 2:49:11Shawn Ryan?

  Or had trouble?

• 2:49:12Speaker 05

  Kind of wondering about, you know, can they get back? The vast majority of them that was there and most of them actually say they were in immediate proximity to the physical, but there are others who literally go off into the stars. And, uh,

• 2:49:30Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 2:49:31Speaker 05

  Come back, yeah.

• 2:49:34Shawn Ryan?

  Could you share with us an example of that?

• 2:49:37Speaker 05

  I'm not one specific, but I've certainly heard stories. You talk, they talk about being out of their body and usually going up through the ceiling or through the roof and outside and then getting, you know, just like in the movies and it gets farther and farther away. And, but then you oft- also usually transition to a different kind of scenario. As to, it's not so much a where, but what's going on and all of that.

• 2:50:07Shawn Ryan?

  I've actually heard about, I've heard people do this

• 2:50:12Shawn Ryan?

  while under psychedelics.

• 2:50:17Shawn Ryan?

  Multiple times.

• 2:50:20Shawn Ryan?

  Do you consider a psychedelic out of body experience and a near death out of body experience the same thing?

• 2:50:30Speaker 05

  Well, the short answer would be don't know and you'd have to know the specifics. Now, one of the key things about NDEs normally is it's like a critical emotional response. And when I was president of IONZ, we would get letters and say, well, I wasn't dead, but, and they would describe these experiences. And the caveat is, but it was like yesterday. So, the difference, I think, is in how they're remembered. Because many of the psychic experiences, you go, well, yeah, it was kind of weird, but like dreams, it kind of dissipates over time. For most near death experience, it doesn't dissipate.

• 2:51:14Speaker 05

  It's just like, you know, people write, it was yesterday.

• 2:51:20Shawn Ryan?

  It's ingrained.

• 2:51:21Speaker 05

  Or we're just screaming, Vietnam was yesterday. So, there are events that are implanted more strongly than others.

• 2:51:29Shawn Ryan?

  What about, you'd also mentioned something about possible dangers when remote viewing into, into different dimensions.

• 2:51:41Speaker 05

  Into what?

• 2:51:42Shawn Ryan?

  Into different dimensions.

• 2:51:46Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, again, we're in a highly theoretical areas and don't know. I mean, we're...

• 2:51:59Speaker 05

  I was gonna say, we're at the front end. The reality is, some of this has been going on for centuries, just under other names. We didn't call it remote viewing, per se, but we've had psychics that have done things, you know, again, throughout human history, that they would do interventions and things out there.

• 2:52:28Speaker 05

  In general, I would say that the dangers seem to be more in the psychological arena. Folks coming back, we're trying to integrate highly unusual experiences and not understanding how that fits into everyday life. I would say that, for instance, with near-death experiences, most people who have them rarely talk about them for years. Takes them a while to integrate the reality as they know it and inculcate that into their lives. I saw a thing recently said, you know, three to four years is kind of an average time

• 2:53:10Speaker 05

  for people to come forward and say, we have... Now, it is changing, and that's mostly because society has changed quite a bit. When we first had Ions, I mean, there were no TV programs that discussed this. And when they did, it was one with Larry Hagman, with Jeannie, you know, I Dream of Jeannie and things like that, which is very different from, no, this is a real experience or something that happened to me. And, you know, part of the idea of...

• 2:53:48Speaker 05

  A rational aspect of that is, and certainly was, you don't want to tell your doctor this because the answer usually is, I can fix that. You know, we'll give you a shot of something and it'll go away. And, you know, that's been very common. I know a number of people, they will also say, there's a huge difference between talking to doctors and talking to nurses. Nurses tend to be much more accepting. Of these sorts of things, doctors come from a, in general, a much more materialistic worldview.

• 2:54:27Speaker 05

  Again, that's changing, that's amazing to me now is how many doctors, like Evan that we mentioned earlier, are coming forward and have had their own NDEs. His was obviously life-changing. And again, as a neurosurgeon, this is, this can't possibly be, but here it is, and now it's my experience and...

• 2:54:55Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:54:56Speaker 05

  So...

• 2:54:57Shawn Ryan?

  Going back to remote viewing, I interviewed Joe McMonigal yesterday, as you know, and we had spoken about, he had spoken about a remote viewing that he did on Mars. Have you ever heard of other remote viewers, remote viewing another planet, or possibly another galaxy?

• 2:55:25Speaker 05

  Well, one of the critical things that happened in the early days is that, this was with the Angloswan, and this was before we, the target unbeknownst to everybody was Jupiter. And everybody knew about the rings on Saturn, and I forget whether Voyager had gone out, but had not gotten there yet. And so he came back, and A, he didn't even know it was not the target on the planet. I mean, it wasn't like he wants to go out, it could have been anything in the world, or in this case, beyond.

• 2:56:10Speaker 05

  And he came back and reported a planet, all planet, and had rings around it, and it was Jupiter, and Chris Bill said, "Oh, bullshit. Saturn has rings, not Jupiter." And Voyager went by, and Jupiter has rings that we never knew about, so that's one we had authentication. I do hear...

• 2:56:35Speaker 05

  Stories of people that make it, very hard to believe. There's one, well, there's a whole thing going on around now that you can probably find on the internet about that we actually have a base on Mars and that this gets into the pedophilia thing and that the kids are taken to the base there. And I mean, it just gets into things that are demonstrably false, but does get into the folklore that's there.

• 2:57:09Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, I've not heard of that.

• 2:57:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. And I had had, in fact, there was an article that I got stopped that was being printed that said, quote, "You think about the logistical aspects of maintaining a base on Mars, we haven't been there, but other than remote craft." And the quote was, "Launches slip out of Cape Canaveral all the time." They said, "No, when they launch, half of Florida knows that there's launches." But this is the problem in all of these areas. There is so much BS in there that it's very hard to, and there's some percentage of people

• 2:57:56Speaker 05

  are going to believe anything. So.

• 2:57:59Shawn Ryan?

  Very true.

• 2:58:02Speaker 05

  And I think we'll run into that with whatever we've talked about today, because many of the things we've talked about are kind of hard to believe and highly speculative.

• 2:58:10Shawn Ryan?

  Have you ever heard of anyone remote viewing into a galaxy?

• 2:58:14Speaker 05

  No.

• 2:58:16Shawn Ryan?

  I wonder if that would be possible.

• 2:58:21Speaker 05

  Well, there should not be any limits. That doesn't mean somebody has or has not done it. The question was, have I heard of it? No. But it's certainly within the realm of possibility. Now, one of the issues that had come up early on regarding accuracy of remote viewing had to do with the ability to verify the event that you had to have at some time, as we did with Jupiter, for instance. Yeah, we flew by and saw that it was accurate.

• 2:59:02Speaker 05

  So if you get into areas where you can't verify it, then it's in the, yeah, who knows, and going to, at least at current time,

• 2:59:13Speaker 05

  you know, foreign galaxies would be different.

• 2:59:19Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe a black hole. That would be interesting.

• 2:59:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, there's a whole, uh, they're, Joe, talking about some of the scientific applications that are in many areas where you can, you know, send this, but we're talking about putting consciousness into an area where they can get accurate information. This has huge implications in all of healing.

• 2:59:43Speaker 05

  And, uh, uh, but a guy, a guy we never mentioned was, uh, you know, Jose Silva?

• 2:59:51Shawn Ryan?

  I don't.

• 2:59:52Speaker 05

  Silva Mind Control. Oh, it's a whole school. And, um,

• 3:00:00Speaker 05

  yeah, Silva has since died, but his mind control, I mean, this is a global, uh, school that goes out. I was trained, I was actually a state representative in Hawaii for a number of years, quite a while ago. But Jose had grown up, um, he basically was literate, he was in a big family, father dies, he's the oldest child, so he has to, uh, pick up, uh, and make, so he worked in a barber shop. And the barber was interested in electronics. And so what they, what he did, he says, like an extension course. And so Jose picks up and he says, can I look at these?

• 3:00:45Speaker 05

  Yeah. So he learned electronics from reading the barber store and whatnot. But he also found out that he had the, the technical capability to pick up on, you know, where errors were in electronic systems. And he gets drafted, he goes in the army and he goes to electronic school. And, um, almost everybody else is an officer, he's an enlisted man.

• 3:01:14Speaker 05

  But he did not know the mathematics necessary to continue. But he had this uncanny ability to fix the radios and things. So what he did was to, in his course, well, he traded information. The officers who'd all been to college would teach him math and he would teach them literally how to use their hands and find errors in electronics. Now, that later changed to doing similar sorts of things with diagnostic, human diagnostics and disease, and very, very effectively.

• 3:01:52Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. I was actually, I was just gonna ask you if you have heard of remote viewers, remote viewing into the human body to maybe diagnose cancer or...

• 3:02:04Speaker 05

  No, that's exactly what he was doing and, and teaching folks.

• 3:02:09Shawn Ryan?

  Very interesting.

• 3:02:11Speaker 05

  There are very, there are people who are seen to be more sensitive to, you know, the healing aspects of it. I'll give you a strange case, a guy that I was just talking to, a good friend I've known again for decades, I'll give the name, Melvin Morris. Melvin was known for children and your death experience. Long story, he ends up in jail in Delaware prison, I'd visited him there. But there's a new program out on, one of the things he had done was teach people to meditate, and the effects that it was having on a number of folks. And he says, "How do you meditate in jail?

• 3:02:56Speaker 05

  Because jails are just noisy, constantly." And he talked about the process of teaching people just to take, you know, short periods of time and, and be able to get information, quieting the mind. The other thing that I'd heard when I'd visited him there is here he is teaching these prisoners how to do hands-on healing.

• 3:03:21Speaker 05

  And you know, this is not, as he points out, you know, most of these are young black folks and he's an old white doctor. You know, so culturally, you know, totally different. And they would come to him for advice on, you know, medical issues and things like that. And they would teach him some of the cultural issues of how to survive in a prison. But, you know, had a mutual relationship and was able to teach groups that he just normally would not be involved in any of these sorts of things. Said it had a profound impact on a number of them, particularly in drug addicts. Said quite a few of them were heroin addicts

• 3:04:05Speaker 05

  and they were able to teach them how to overcome the addiction.

• 3:04:11Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:04:12Speaker 05

  Because even in jail, they would have the craving, but using these meditative techniques were able to avoid it.

• 3:04:18Shawn Ryan?

  That's incredible. That is incredible. What an, what an impact on the world that could make.

• 3:04:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:04:25Shawn Ryan?

  Right? I gotta, I gotta take a minute and wrap my head around this. Let's take a break.

• 3:04:31Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 3:04:36Shawn Ryan?

  I want to give a big thank you out right now to all the Vigilance Elite patrons out there that are watching the show right now. Just want to say thank you, guys. You are our top supporters and you're what makes this show actually happen. If you're not on Vigilance Elite Patreon, I want to tell you a little bit about what's going on in there. So, we do a little bit of everything. There's plenty of behind the scenes content from the actual Sean Ryan Show. On top of that, basically what I do is I take a lot of the questions that I get from you guys or the patrons, and then I turn them into videos. So we get, right now, there's a lot of concern about self-defense, home defense, crimes on the

• 3:05:20Shawn Ryan?

  rise, all throughout the country, actually all throughout the world. And so, we talk about everything from how to prep your home, how to clear your home, how to get familiar with a firearm, both rifle and pistol, for beginners and advanced. We talk about mindset. We talk about defensive driving. We have an end of the month live chat that I'm on at the end of every month where we can talk about whatever topics you guys have. It's actually done on Zoom. You might enjoy it. Check it out. And if Zoom's not your thing, or you don't like live chats, like I said, there's a library of well over 100 videos on where to start with prepping, all the firearm stuff, pretty much anything you can think of.

• 3:06:05Shawn Ryan?

  It's on there. So anyways, go to www.patreon.com slash Vigilance Elite, or just go on the link in the description, it'll take you right there. And if you don't want to, and you just want to continue to watch the show, that's fine too. I appreciate it either way. Love you all. Let's get back to the show. Thank you.

• 3:06:31Shawn Ryan?

  How many guys out there are worried about brain health? You know, all we hear about is fitness. Everybody's getting ready for bikini season because spring's right around the corner. I'm personally more concerned about my brain. You look around, you see all these brain diseases that are getting out of control. I'm going to take everything I can to improve the health of my brain. And I'm going to tell you about my five favorite supplements from Laird Superfoods that help with brain health. Alright, the first thing I do every morning is I have Laird Superfood Creamer. It's got adaptogens and functional mushrooms, which are great for brain health. I put this in my tea, tastes amazing.

• 3:07:15Shawn Ryan?

  Who likes vegetables? Cool, me neither. That's why I take Laird's Daily Greens. Just pour it in a cup, shoot it real quick, you got your daily vegetable intake. Plus, guess what? Yep, that's right. Functional mushroom extract, there are six different kinds in here. Once again, great for brain health. After greens, we got daily reds. This one doesn't actually have any functional mushrooms in it, but I can't stand beets. I think they taste like shit. And so I take one scoop of this, put it in my water, and I don't have to eat beets anymore. Alright, we're winding down the day now. This is the next supplement I take every single night. Laird's Sleep and Recovery. Helps me sleep, helps me recover from my daily workout. And guess what? Yep, you're right.

• 3:07:58Shawn Ryan?

  It has mushroom extract. Guess what? It's good for your brain. And I saved the best for last. Most of you know this. My favorite supplement at Laird's is Performance Mushrooms. Has a ton of mushroom extract. Super, super good for your brain. Take it every single day, sometimes multiple times a day. These are my five favorite supplements from Laird Superfoods. You can go over to lairdsuperfood.com, use the promo code SRS, save 20%. Ladies and gents, I would not have partnered with this company if I didn't believe in them. They take the cleanest ingredients. They try to source everything in America, unless they find a better ingredient that's more quality somewhere else.

• 3:08:42Shawn Ryan?

  I think we can all appreciate that. Once again, lairdsuperfood.com, use the promo code SRS. That'll save you 20%.

• 3:08:53Shawn Ryan?

  All right, John, we're back from the break. We just kind of wrapped up your career at InCom, and now we want to move into LabCom. What is LabCom?

• 3:09:03Speaker 05

  Well, there's an intermediate step, and that's at the Army Material Command. And what had happened is that, of course, the Navy has had an Office of Naval,

• 3:09:22Speaker 05

  you know, the research, and the Army had just decided to integrate all the Army laboratories that were kind of disparate. So they put them under a laboratory command, which is what it was. Now, at the time,

• 3:09:42Speaker 05

  do you know the color of money?

• 3:09:45Shawn Ryan?

  Grain.

• 3:09:47Speaker 05

  No, let's not get into that. That's too...

• 3:09:53Speaker 05

  By the color of money, I mean, when Congress appropriates things, it comes down with certain characteristics assigned to it and whatnot. And the P6 account, see, you want to know, another one, we were working on the P2 account, which is the intelligence funding. So when I moved to laboratory command, or well, actually, Army Material Command, we're working on the 63 account, which is the R and D money. And I was interested, I was executive, well, this is one of the areas where strange things happen.

• 3:10:35Speaker 05

  The Army was looking for the next big X. They had just done the big five. It was the Abrams tank and Bradley and the helicopters that had come out, the Apache, and then the fifth one, the missile, Patriot missile. And there was the Black Hawk, Apache, and Patriot. And so the question was, okay, those are just getting fielded, you know, what's the next step?

• 3:11:14Speaker 05

  I was the military guy in the office that was running this at Army Material Command. I don't know if you want to digress, because this gets into the serendipitous kinds of things. Let's do it. There's a guy who's working that program, and I know it's in trouble, because I'm handling all the paperwork that's coming through. I'm working for an SES, still Lieutenant Colonel at the time, with no hopes of promotion.

• 3:11:49Speaker 05

  But I had been saved from the NSCOM, and tell folks who would have ground me up in a heartbeat, who were very much not happy with any of these things that were going on. I mean, it was quite a battle, and my boss had been forced out of the military over that. So I'm watching the paperwork in this program, and the guy who's running us out on, doing a tour, because it was all over the country, had laboratories, mostly civilian laboratories

• 3:12:32Speaker 05

  doing all the work. And looking at it, I'm seeing some memos come through from our three-star boss, and they're dripping in blood. And I'm going, "Harry," well, his last name, "you better get back here." "Oh, no, no, I'm gonna go on." I said, "You better get back here." And...

• 3:12:58Speaker 05

  He says, "No, no, I'm going out." So, I get a call and said I was supposed to meet with Dr. Haley.

• 3:13:08Speaker 05

  And, uh, and then with the three-star level. And like, they asked me questions like, "Where do you live?"

• 3:13:17Speaker 05

  Kind of a strange question here. I was in Springfield, Virginia. And, um, they said, "Oh, by the way, next Monday, you have this program." And it was huge. I mean, what I asked about the color of money is basically the 63A program. It covers billions. Uh, and I didn't control that, but you had oversight over all of the laboratories that were doing these things independently. And they say, "Next Monday, it's yours." And I go, "Oh, wait a minute, you know, how did we end up here?" I ended up writing a plan that frankly got me promoted.

• 3:14:00Speaker 05

  And, uh, the simple words, it was a new thrust is what it was called. And it was going to be, "What is the next big kinds of thing?" And the thing that, uh, worked was I said, "New thrust is a process as opposed to a thing." It's a procedure for how do we transition, you know, from early R and D into research and/or engineering development and those sorts of things. So I had the, the step that was between pure R and D and research or engineering development. So this is a huge step in there.

• 3:14:40Speaker 05

  And I went out to this guy's office in Tyson's Corner.

• 3:14:46Speaker 05

  I'm looking at them, "Whose office is this?" And they said, "It's yours." And I said, Any four-star general saw this, he'd get killed. You know, I mean, we literally had the Shenandoahs, the mountains, and they had leased. And that was part of the problem. They had spent an awful lot of money in overhead and things like that. But, really nice. So, working those programs. And then the Army, in infinite wisdom, decided that they ought to bring the laboratories together and have one command, a two-star level command that had oversight over that.

• 3:15:28Speaker 05

  And part of that was the ASCO, or the Advanced Systems Concept Office. Now, if you had to understand, is that we were in an organization that was between 1 and 2% green, meaning uniform. I had five, I guess, GS-15s that worked for me. I mean, each of them had major sectors, and we were looking at, uh, big stuff with precision-guided initials. Remember, we're talking the 80s now, we're nowhere near, you know, where we are now in technology.

• 3:16:13Speaker 05

  This is the stuff that's evolving. Had a whole RISTO component of reconnaissance, uh, target acquisition, or surveillance target reconnaissance, had C4I, Command and Control Communications, where how computers were now being integrated, everything. And all of the tactical-directed energy. These were lasers, microwaves, and then particle beams was part of it. And again, we got to remember the technology was nowhere where it was then. And, um...

• 3:16:51Speaker 05

  So anyway, I uh, I ended up working for a couple of different two-star generals there, but that was the thrust of, but again, very straightforward, very, I mean, it was the cutting edge of technology in the late eighties.

• 3:17:10Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. And where did you go from there?

• 3:17:14Speaker 05

  Uh, retirement?

• 3:17:16Shawn Ryan?

  Retirement?

• 3:17:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, what, what happened, uh, position became vacant and um,

• 3:17:25Speaker 05

  we had talked before about Military Personnel Center. Well, they don't like it. They said, they had been passed into all of these positions from general to general and them being told now, you know, fix it. And uh, so they came up with a position that basically had to be a, a full Colonel and breathe. And I said, you gotta be shitting me, right? I mean, all of this super high-tech stuff and, no, not happening.

• 3:17:56Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. So you retired?

• 3:18:00Speaker 05

  Yeah. And um, didn't, see up until this, well, back up a bit, when I was, yeah, at Army Material Command, the Colonel's um, Board was meeting and I had zero probability of getting promoted. I mean, I knew that. As I mentioned earlier, I had done two tours ever in the infantry and technically I'm being evaluated as an infantry officer and not commanded a battalion, had done all this wild and wonderful stuff. I mean, gotten good efficiency reports because the people that I had worked for, you know, that's what

• 3:18:40Speaker 05

  they want to do. But uh, I got a call from that three-star and said, oh, by the way, congratulations. You gotta be kidding me. And I was already thinking on the outside, ego wouldn't take getting passed over, but I mean, your promotion rate was about thirty percent or something. So that's why I say the probability was just not there. So okay, well, so okay, need to rethink this. Um.

• 3:19:12Speaker 05

  Did those jobs and then got out and had a

• 3:19:18Speaker 05

  bit of a digression, but it's, I was offered a very good job with one of the big contractors. But because of what they offered, it had to go to the CEO to be signed off. So I'm waiting and what happens, that's where I mentioned Oak, a friend of mine, Oak Shannon, who's in the Navy but working at Los Alamos is having a retirement party. So, um, Los Alamos has posted interest for a job, so I thought, well, I'll go take that because a good way to go to the party, right? And have them pay for it. So I went out to the party.

• 3:20:02Speaker 05

  And it did interview, of course, for the job. And damned if they don't come back and make an offer, counter offer. The morning I'm at the party, the officer, the personnel guy from the, one of the major ones calls me and said, okay, it's been approved. And I go, well, sorry about that, but you know, I need to think about it. And the difference, by the way, was not money, it was the difference in vacation time. That landlub was under, you know, the government rules and the problem is when you transition

• 3:20:42Speaker 05

  to civilian industry from the military, you're starting as if you're a new kid coming in. You gotta build up. And so I said, the answer was no, I went to Los Alamos instead because of the party.

• 3:20:59Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. What, how did it go at Los Alamos?

• 3:21:03Speaker 05

  How did what?

• 3:21:03Shawn Ryan?

  You, how did, how did it go at Los Alamos? That's a, that's a location with a lot of

• 3:21:12Speaker 05

  Well.

• 3:21:13Shawn Ryan?

  Mystique around it.

• 3:21:15Speaker 05

  Now, I had been there a number of times before, in particular with Saveline. I mean, we did lots of, and

• 3:21:24Speaker 05

  Lots of very, very high tech. Now, you're talking a national lab. For those who don't know, this is basically a nuclear weapons lab.

• 3:21:34Speaker 05

  It's, you know, kind of the premier. We in Sandia were the premier labs in the area. Now, what's critical at this juncture, Cold War ends.

• 3:21:49Speaker 05

  Now, that was critical because up until that time, as a nuclear weapons lab, money was provided. You never had to question whether or not you needed money or what it would be. Cold War ended, and we had the peace dividend that we spent too quickly. And so, all of a sudden, you had to compete in areas that you've never competed before. I mean, this is at the highest level. Frank C. Sandia and Livermore were eating our lunch there, but that was because of the upper level thing. So, I went in to do one job and got siphoned off into a, um, kind of a generic

• 3:22:34Speaker 05

  military applications directorate. And, um, what happens there is we have a number of critical things that come along. We'd had Urgent Fury, which is Grenada, had Just Cause. And we're looking, I'm looking, at what's going on in the world and how do you want to approach it from a technology perspective? And it was clear, to me at least, is that we needed a whole different set of weapons opportunities. And as comes out frequently, you can't kill your way out of these things.

• 3:23:17Speaker 05

  And you looked at particularly in, um, Just Cause. You're going into Panama, are bitches with Noriega and his henchmen, not with the general Panamanian people. You've got big families with long memories. And you really, uh, you want to minimize the fatalities. What's going on right now, you know, in Gaza is, I don't have any acceptance to that. But it was...

• 3:23:48Speaker 05

  Military perspective is not about killing. It's about imposing will. How can you get the adversary to do what you want them to? You don't necessarily want them to... In the past, we've talked about and have had wars of annihilation. So when you get into World War II and how you went about, you literally were annihilating the adversary. And now the kinds of conflicts that were developing called for totally different rethinking on application of force. So it was from that that I had came up with the concept of what I call non-lethal weapons defense. Now, the police, of course, had this issue already.

• 3:24:33Speaker 05

  And was it Walker? There was a critical case that had just emerged where you couldn't shoot a fleeing felon. And that changed the police. So they were already starting to look at that. I was looking at it from a much broader concept, from, you know, application of force. But it was from the simple stuff you know about, like tasers and, you know, beanbag bullets and pepper ball and all that, up to what we called strategic incapacitation. How do you take down a nation-state? And do that without casualties

• 3:25:17Speaker 05

  or minimal casualties and not secondary and tertiary casualties? If you take out the power system, you know, how long are you going to bring it up before you start having secondary fatalities and all that? So started developing that. And that led to lots of studies and conferences that I ran and NATO studies and eventually to the Council on Foreign Relations.

• 3:25:50Speaker 05

  Participating with them, Science Board, Defense Science Board.

• 3:25:54Shawn Ryan?

  Can you get into some of the specifics with some of the non-lethal weapons? That were developed?

• 3:26:00Speaker 05

  The whole concept, yeah. I wrote this whole book, the first book that I, no, the second book, was called Future War: Non-Lethal Weapon Warfare in 21st Century. And everybody thinks about this generally in terms of, like I said, the anti-personnel soft tasers and all this. And I did know the guys who did tasers and all. But when you got into the more complex applications, like how do you, how do you take down a country? And it can be done. That gets into the more sensitive system.

• 3:26:40Speaker 05

  A lot of it did have to do with application in electromagnetic systems and things of that nature.

• 3:26:47Shawn Ryan?

  Can you get into that, or is that stuff sealed?

• 3:26:51Speaker 05

  Well, the problem there is I'm, you know, primarily dated. Because I worked at LANL and then I retired from there in 95, the second time. And, um, yeah, no, I was later with the Army Science Board and some others who were overlooking into those systems. But, yeah, I just worked. I mean, what we've done with laser, lasers have always been the great promise. Infinite magazine and all of that. Microwaves took on just mythical proportion. Every study I was on, if I don't know how many people are, you could just, you know, pulse power.

• 3:27:36Speaker 05

  And there's a lot of stuff you can do, and it has come a long way. The same with lasers, the efficiency has increased in power and those sorts of things. So it's, yeah, but, you know, where we are today is, I'm sure, light years ahead of where we were when we were just, you know, developing. Most people don't know it, but MICOM, which was Missile Command, I think it was 19, in the 1960s, actually cut a wing off an airplane in flight.

• 3:28:10Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding.

• 3:28:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. That, uh, that was a CO2 laser at the time, but don't realize that these things went back. And it's taken a hell of a lot of work and tons and tons of money to get to the capabilities that exist today.

• 3:28:27Shawn Ryan?

  Where was that laser fired from?

• 3:28:30Speaker 05

  Oh, that was Redstone.

• 3:28:33Shawn Ryan?

  That was Redstone?

• 3:28:34Speaker 05

  Redstone Arsenal, yeah.

• 3:28:35Shawn Ryan?

  Right down the road in Alabama?

• 3:28:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:28:37Shawn Ryan?

  Was it fired from Earth?

• 3:28:39Speaker 05

  I don't, no, this was, remember, this was, these were not fielded systems. We're talking, again, basic R and D.

• 3:28:47Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:28:47Speaker 05

  But, uh, I mean, it was just that you had the capabilities to test it at the time. Yeah, that far back.

• 3:28:57Shawn Ryan?

  To your knowledge, have we used these weapons?

• 3:29:02Speaker 05

  Oh, we have. I mean, they've been developed. Uh, kind of a classic example. I was controlling two different, uh, laser technologies. One was totally in the black world and the other one was white but classified. And the big mistake was the one that was white world but classified or black, you know, they went out and developed a constituency that, uh, supported it, said, hey, we want these things. See, a lot of what my job was, people say, what do you do? I said, well, I'm a translator.

• 3:29:46Speaker 05

  And by that I meant I would tell the military community, here's what, you know, the science can do. I would tell the civilian laser community, you know, here's what the military wants.

• 3:30:00Shawn Ryan?

  This is what we needed to do.

• 3:30:01Speaker 05

  Yeah. And, uh, so this was one of the key areas. So what had happened is that This one group developed something that became Stingray. And it was a counter laser system. Now remember, we're still talking bad old days. And the problem in, a huge problem in the Soviet battlefield in Europe was we could kill the tanks, but they came with lots of friends and neighbors. And so the issue is how do you stop a number at a time? And Stingray was designed to go out and blind

• 3:30:41Speaker 05

  the lasers or blind the sensor systems. So you had enough time to hit it with, you know, hard munitions and things. But the other technology frankly was better. And they finally decided to uncover it. And the requirements committee looked at that and said, but I know this. So the requirements went to what was... Interestingly, fast forward to, yeah, Desert Storm, I guess. And they decided to field it. Won't get into individuals.

• 3:31:20Speaker 05

  But anyway, it went over. And there's a general who was, had lost a leg. So he was, you know, sensitive to those things. And said, basically, I'm not going to use it. I'm afraid of because they were potentially blinding. They were designed, again, as a counter sensor system. But I remember giving briefings in the Pentagon and Max Thurman was the Vice Chief of Staff at the time. And he'd get dramatic, you know, I got eyeballs are draining down. That's not what you want. So the whole issue on blinding lasers. But we were, we had already

• 3:32:03Speaker 05

  known that Iran had been using Soviet systems against Iraq and blinding, intentionally blinding folk. So I ran into constantly these issues on legality as well as ethical applications. The side like, you know, we could not win World War II today.

• 3:32:29Speaker 05

  Because of, you know, if we applied the rules that we fight under today with what we did in World War II, and people forget that.

• 3:32:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. Very, uh,

• 3:32:44Shawn Ryan?

  very true. Different set of rules these days.

• 3:32:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:32:48Shawn Ryan?

  No doubt about it.

• 3:32:51Shawn Ryan?

  And so, so from Los Alamos, you went to US SOCOM?

• 3:32:58Speaker 05

  No, no, I retired a second time.

• 3:33:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, I retired, I was out.

• 3:33:09Speaker 05

  Uh, this is when I went to, actually to NIDS. And that cycle, and then the thing came up and, uh, position.

• 3:33:22Speaker 05

  Well, again, it gets back to my boss, the, the guy who was the inspector general of the army, the one who I had moved under, you know, when they moved out from, uh, uh, from the inspector general's office, while I had kept in touch with him. He created something called MPRI. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but that was one of the big Beltway bandits that put together. So, and we were still in contact. In fact, he, when I wrote Future War, he was one of the forward. He had become, he was brought in as a Bush the Elder to fix the link, uh, leaks in the White House.

• 3:34:06Speaker 05

  And so, kind of stayed plugged into those, but he had this private company that's coming up.

• 3:34:13Speaker 05

  And I had called him and said they were looking for somebody with, uh, the skills that I had before. And he called him and said, "Don't let this one get away."

• 3:34:26Speaker 05

  Next thing you know, I'm en route to Afghanistan. And as a contractor there, as the, the job title, very grandiose, sort of contractor, mentor to the Minister of Defense. And this one's Fahim's there. Then, after I came back. Then there were people there who had known some of the things we'd written before and people had moved around and then issue with the JSO came up, a non-resident senior fellow there.

• 3:34:58Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm, hmm. Let's, I would like to talk about some of the stuff you did in the ATIP program.

• 3:35:10Speaker 05

  Which?

• 3:35:11Shawn Ryan?

  ATIP.

• 3:35:12Speaker 05

  It was not associated with ATIP or all that.

• 3:35:15Shawn Ryan?

  Do you have knowledge of it?

• 3:35:17Speaker 05

  Hmm?

• 3:35:18Shawn Ryan?

  Do you have knowledge of it? Can you talk about the beginning of it?

• 3:35:21Speaker 05

  That's much, oh, no, no, no. It's apples and oranges. We're now jumping back a few decades.

• 3:35:27Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:35:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:35:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, when, um, yeah, this was during the period I was at AMC. Um, people got together and we started asking questions like, what is, what's going on with the UFO program? We had heard all of the rumors, some of which are still kind of breaking today. And so I said, okay, well, let's do it. And so I set up a group. It was inter-agency. It had, you know, all the services, various people from the intelligence community and a fair number from aerospace industry.

• 3:36:15Speaker 05

  And the requirements were that you had to have the TS SCI clearances, you had to have interest in the area, you had to know who you were. And like I say, these things keep getting interrelated. Sobelbine has moved to BDM as a vice president.

• 3:36:38Speaker 05

  For intelligence, I think it was at BDM at the time, which is another one of the big Beltway bandits. And so I was still in touch with them. Daytime, I was running the New Thrust program, I think, by that time. And so discussed what we want to do. So they were, he was, Jill Braddock was the B of the BDM. So I went to Joe and told him what we wanted to do. And says, okay, so it gave us the space, so we had the skip to run the thing. And, you know, we had a number of sessions, stuff on the internet that, you know, even

• 3:37:23Speaker 05

  I don't have the record of. There was a requirement, no written records. And that, and everybody paid their own way, so it was unfunded at the time. Obviously, that was not adhered to, because I found out people went back, wrote notes, and have since shown up on the internet. But we were going on and on, looking at, again, the whole UFO project, which was, the approach was very different from what you're seeing today. My experience was, we had groups together and people who should have known, going, didn't

• 3:38:08Speaker 05

  you do that? Oh, I thought you did that. You know, isn't that you? And, I mean, everybody knew the basics, but everybody seemed to think that somebody else was doing it. And so, had put together a basic briefing, and moved higher and higher and higher up the food chain. Ended up in the secretariat, and three and four-star general. First of all, the three-star general, the guy I worked for, because I had run several meetings, and it was, I can't let him hear about this in the Washington Post. So, went in, said, I gotta confess, here's what I've been doing.

• 3:38:53Speaker 05

  I said, well, that's pretty interesting, but we better tell my boss, who's the four-star out of the other building. And he's a little decision.

• 3:39:04Speaker 05

  And going like, well, I wonder how this is gonna work. So they set it up and I meet with him and goes, well, gee, that's pretty interesting. You know, how can I help? And I said, well, we're meeting, I think it was in San Antonio. It was a series of four stars and, and I've got to give a briefing. I would like to meet your counterpart from the Air Force. And he got the, got the handoff there and then went back to, you know, Air Force, I think it was Systems Command, I'm not sure, but these were, yeah, down in, you

• 3:39:44Speaker 05

  know, Andrews Air Force Base is where they were scheduled. And ended up doing the briefing there and he goes, you know, why is this green? You know, it seems like it ought to be here, didn't know. He says, well, I'm not sure. Go at that time, Space Command was a two-star command at El Segundo, LAX. And so went out there and met with the commander. And he goes, well, that's pretty interesting. You can tell it was Don Katina, may still be around, who ended up being the four-star commander of Space Command, when it became

• 3:40:26Speaker 05

  the command. But he says, tell him Katina says yes. But I had some Air Force folks with me who were supporting it because we had been at NORAD and places like that. Now the problem that I found was that at NORAD, people at lower levels, they were seeing stuff.

• 3:40:51Shawn Ryan?

  Can you, what is NORAD?

• 3:40:53Speaker 05

  Oh, North American Air Defense Command, Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado.

• 3:41:02Speaker 05

  So, but what you found out pretty quickly was that reporting this stuff was not career enhancing. I mean, nobody wanted to believe you. Now, interesting, when you jump ahead to laboratory command, my first boss there was Jim Cersei, who was the Major General. Where that's significant is he had come from NORAD because, you know, the nature of that, you know, they're on high alert all the time and if anything's coming. So their staff officer, the senior level officer of the day is a brigadier general. And Cersei had come from there as a BG.

• 3:41:46Speaker 05

  Uh, this is where I run into the difference between things, you know, being reported now. He thought I was crazy. I mean, he said, you know, definitely never heard anything. So I think what you saw was a difference between guys who were running the sensor systems and the upper level staff who said, yeah, they periodically get unusual phenomena, but you don't want to be the guy who gets associated with it.

• 3:42:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:42:17Speaker 05

  And we ended up eventually at SDI, then Star Wars. And I met with the commanding general of Star Wars. And it was interesting, this had been set up by another general. Normally, when you're operating at that level, you send, you know, Rita heads and that so they know what you're coming and talk about. That had not happened here. And I went in and I had an entourage from the various agencies with me. And again, he doesn't know what it is. So I start out with UFO 101.

• 3:43:00Speaker 05

  And we were talking for a little bit, and all of a sudden he stops and goes, "Wait, wait, wait, wait. Who are you guys really?" We went back around the room and to the agency, so we sort of, you know, said, "Yeah, this is really what you..." But the point there is, here's the guy who is setting up the Strategic Defense of Man, uh, Strategic Defense of Star Wars, and remember the rumor mill has it that this was to fight E.T. and stuff like that, who clearly had no idea what we were talking about. And by the time we were done, it was an hour or two later, he goes, "Okay, well, you got my attention, but I can't touch

• 3:43:44Speaker 05

  this." And he had a $5 billion budget. It was the biggest budget in all of DOD, which was where we went to, because we were now going to transition to, "Let's make this a serious, official-funded program." And his point was, "I can't touch it." He said, "If I get caught doing this..." He says, "Now, look, I'm doing some hairy stuff now, and this is in a straight world, technologies that are out there, a lot of debate on whether you use kinetic kill, i.e. hit-to-kill missions, or could we use DE in space, etc.?" But he said, "If I get caught, you know, gonna get crucified." And, you know, again, he had

• 3:44:25Speaker 05

  the biggest budget. I think I told you the story, but the thing he used to get me on the Pentagon, and he said, "I'm gonna go find the money, like, there's pots of money." Yeah. No, but what it means is I'm gonna steal it from somebody else's program." And he was the target, kind of across the board. But he said, "Look, if you can tell me what to look for, I can include that in the algorithms." And was willing to go that far, but not to have, you know, kind of officially be involved, which is kind of, this was counterintuitive to all of the things that you're hearing today.

• 3:45:04Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. What kind of stuff were you guys studying at the Advanced Theoretical Physics Program?

• 3:45:10Speaker 05

  Well, we were, you know, this was...

• 3:45:16Speaker 05

  A long time ago, this is the, our thinking on it was quite different. We were looking at physical thing. We were looking at the key incidents that had happened around the world.

• 3:45:29Shawn Ryan?

  What were those incidents?

• 3:45:31Speaker 05

  Oh, we're talking hours of briefings here now. I'll give you, probably one of the biggie was Tehran incident with Jirani. Where this was a case where they've got a huge UFO that's being seen from Tehran airport. They have a launch. This is, by the way, the Shah's still in power, which is kind of key here. So they send up two interceptors. And what's interesting is the, he goes, you know, what am I looking for? You'll know when you see it.

• 3:46:12Speaker 05

  Now, this is a thing that's being seen by the tower in Tehran. They've got radars confirming that there's something up there, so no doubt about it. The guy goes in and he goes, well, got AIM-9 missiles, they're gonna shoot it. When, when he does that, turns off his weapons panel, gets in closer, and all the communications are shut off, but he's back, he's still got control of the plane. Brings it, he comes back out, and communications comes back up. It's interesting, this guy is still with the Shah's airport, I think he's still on,

• 3:46:54Speaker 05

  but he made three stars, he's one of the ones that survived the transition. Now, what was, there were two things that were interesting to me. One I don't know is, did he flip a switch? So we now have target acquisition on this, physically sending a signal out that the UFO was picking up on? Or was it, I thought about it. And they turned him off. Now, again, I said, I was running the directed energy stuff, right? I know how to turn you off, don't know how to turn you back on again. And so that was really critical. Also, some things came out and chased him and some other stuff

• 3:47:37Speaker 05

  went down to the desert. And so it was, you know, a major incident was technically classified at the time, became unclassified after the Shaw left and that.

• 3:47:51Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean went down into the desert?

• 3:47:53Speaker 05

  There was something that came out of the, you know, the big UFO that went down. I don't know, but we do know that people on the ground saw something coming down.

• 3:48:03Shawn Ryan?

  There's been several reports of that, right?

• 3:48:08Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 3:48:08Shawn Ryan?

  There's been several reports since of UFOs going into the ocean without splash.

• 3:48:15Speaker 05

  Well, this is, you know, the main craft is, is in the sky. This is something that came out of it, something that chased them and some stuff that went down. But the important thing was that, I guess there was some shepherds out there who reported seeing something coming down. No, what you're talking about here is the transmedium things. That's one of the applications. And, you know, it's not just ocean. And remember, the, when Brandon Fugel was here, and we met with him a couple of times after that. But there is something

• 3:48:52Speaker 05

  in the last season of, you know, secretive skinwalker ranch where they're seeing something that comes down, it's lights, and then gets into the mesa and comes out of the mesa. No, you can't follow it through the mesa, but the kind of assumption is whatever it is was going through the mesa, which means transiting physical material, you know, that's kind of hard, was a little different from underwater.

• 3:49:28Shawn Ryan?

  Which is interesting because you were studying this early on.

• 3:49:32Speaker 05

  Oh, well, one of the things I point out is that when the OSAT program came out and released their release, everything they said we knew 35 years ago, easy. All, I mean, what they have added to the puzzle is, A, it's a court's official, but it's a new sensor system, so you have more hard data. It's like when you have Fravor and, um, captain's name, but, well, Fravor in particular, you know, where they're capturing it on cameras and so you have multi, one of my key points is multi-sensor.

• 3:50:17Speaker 05

  So you're not saying some crazy guy or, you know, we didn't perceive of that. You have multiple sensors that are catching these things. And one of the things that they've talked about, looking down, remember, he sees it, it disappears, it turns up at his control point, almost instantaneously, and they see it and it looks like it's communicating with something underwater. And, oh, dear. If they're watching him, but, no, I was just at Seoul, the conference at Stanford University,

• 3:50:59Speaker 05

  and Admiral, who's doing, he's now retired, he was also the head of NOAA, but his interest is in the underwater stuff because you do pick up things that are moving really fast. Certainly not biologics, but that's, as they point out, most of the ocean has not been mapped, you know, awful lot of space, a lot of, but that was, actually, the cases that I think I heard of that were similar, and the reason they were classified, may still be, I don't know, but was where they were.

• 3:51:43Speaker 05

  But this stuff was being reported, you know, forty, fifty years ago.

• 3:51:48Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh. What are some of the other, what are some of the other incidents that you've studied?

• 3:51:54Speaker 05

  Oh, I think the biggest, in my view, was what's known as Bentwaters or Rendlesham Forest.

• 3:52:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, Chuck Holt is probably the best guy on this. Chuck was deputy base commander at

• 3:52:13Speaker 05

  Bentwaters and this is volumes written on the particular case, but I found it very significant because of the number of people involved. And it's one of the few cases. Most of the time you study these things, the credibility, you know, this is one that gets stronger over time, more and more people coming out. And now they found one fairly recently radar confirmation that there was something over the base. And it was not a singular event. What I learned from Chuck later, this was had been going on for a long time. And it

• 3:52:53Speaker 05

  turns out this was almost like the ranch kind of thing where the events had been reported for decades.

• 3:53:00Shawn Ryan?

  Just keeps happening.

• 3:53:01Speaker 05

  Huh?

• 3:53:02Shawn Ryan?

  It just keeps happening.

• 3:53:03Speaker 05

  Of various kinds. I mean, some of them were lights in the sky and strange phenomena being reported. But the particular one here was, and it started in late December, nineteen eighty. By the way, you should come back to Cash Landrum because it's interesting that that happened at the same night. But so this one's out there and I see what they think is a plane has crashed or something off the base. And so Roger Penison and John Burrows

• 3:53:40Speaker 05

  and a little one go out there and, well, they have to, they're, this gets very sensitive now because you're leaving a military base and have to leave, these are air policemen, leave the weapons behind because you, you know, the SOFA agreement as to what you can and can't do and where you can do it. So they go out and it's interesting because years later I called Jim Penniston, who was a staff sergeant at the time, and I want to talk to you about the UFO. He says, oh, you mean the one I touched?

• 3:54:21Speaker 05

  And actually walked up, there's a heavy thing sitting on the ground. It's in, like I said, late December. And what was interesting is there's actually indentations on the ground. And I've seen the plaster casts from this. So you had physical evidence of this thing sitting on the ground. Must have had weight. He talks about certain symbols that he saw and wrote those up. So the first incident happens a few days later. They're having a end of the year party, a Christmas party. And Chuck is there and they're about to give out the awards for, you know,

• 3:55:05Speaker 05

  being nice people and that. And he says, the provost marshal comes in. He says, they're back. He says, who's back? UFOs are back. And Chuck tells us both, but it was, I'll take care of this. One of the worst decisions you probably ever made, you know, saying, I'm going to go out and we're going to resolve this. So he gets, I forget who the sergeant was who was with him, who gets their radiac meters and things to check on radiation and whatnot. And he goes out. They go outside the base and they're using the radiac. Sure enough, there's stuff above background noise.

• 3:55:49Speaker 05

  And here's this thing hovering out in the trees ahead of them. And it starts manipulating, staying away from them. Then splits into five pieces and zips off. And as I recall, two of them come over and shoot a beam at his feet.

• 3:56:09Speaker 05

  And so he goes back, so he's recording this at the time of what's happening. And that eventually got released. And then the conventional wisdom was, oh, because of the periodicity to these lights that are appearing. And he says, it's got to be the lighthouse at some distance away. And they went back and looked at it and said, you can't see the lighthouse from there. But we have over 60 witnesses now. Are you familiar with the PRP, Personal Reliability Program?

• 3:56:43Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 3:56:44Speaker 05

  Okay, well, again, the other aspect of what was not known at the time was that Bentwaters was the forwardmost nuclear storage area in Europe. And supposedly, this thing came over and it was shooting beams down into the storage area. And I had met with Chuck. Oh, I've now moved to Los Alamos, and I'm years later, I'd heard about this, and I knew where he was as a civilian, had set up lunch, liked to meet with him. And what he says was, because nothing, he says there was no debriefing or anything

• 3:57:27Speaker 05

  of that nature at the time. And he says, oh, I'm finally going to get debriefed because I'm coming from Los Alamos. No, I'm there to ask questions and whatnot. He is convinced that a lot of his people were screwed with. After this, their careers in general did not fare well. Burrows has had significant medical issues. And some of this does get into classified. I know they had trouble even getting his medical records. I think Kit got involved in even obtaining his medical records because he was trying

• 3:58:09Speaker 05

  to address heart problems that he had. But again, it's the amount of witnesses, the physical witness, recurring event, you know, pretty damn significant. But as I mentioned, the Cash-Landrum happens at the same time.

• 3:58:30Speaker 05

  And Cash Landrum's a case where UFO was seen importantly as fairly close to Houston, a remote area, two women and a boy are driving down the road. And here's this UFO that's kind of setting up, I suppose they think flame out or something. And there are, depends on account, 22, 23 helicopters that are supposedly circulating around it. Now, this is, I think it's the 27th of December. And if you know anything about what goes on between Christmas and New Year's, basically nothing.

• 3:59:13Speaker 05

  So anyway, what happens is they stop the car and they get out. Betty Cash runs around in front of it. Landrum opens the door, stands behind the little boy Cody, gets out, looks, he gets scared, runs around and jump back. He's now grown and they've talked to these issue. So the point was that they were exposed to some kind of radiation. Betty Cash had got out in front, in fact, later died from leukemia, but she has whole body radiation. Landrum, not so much, but she's standing with the car door, so it's partially blocking it.

• 3:59:58Speaker 05

  And Cody, the boy who runs around and jumps back, so he's got minimal, so everything physically fits. Fast forward a few years, they sue the government, specifically the Air Force, over this event because of danger. And the supposition here is this was some kind of test vehicle that was out there and radiant, and particularly because of the helicopters. What happens is that the Air Force looks at it and says, "Ain't ours." And by the side, those helicopters, those are Army helicopters. And so it comes to Army IG.

• 4:00:42Speaker 05

  Well, remember, I used to work there. So the guy who gets the case comes to me and a couple of other people who were radiation experts. And he went out and did a fantastic study, I mean, very extensive, and what we know... The only military helicopter was a Huey who had been in the area earlier in the day, but had landed back at Fort Hood before this event occurred. And they went so far as to hit the Marines, and the Marines were off of Florida. They were not in the area where it might have had Chinooks or something. And the point is, they weren't ours.

• 4:01:24Speaker 05

  And, you know, even after extensive search, you could not account for the helicopter, the radiation, the UFO, but absolutely certain that it happened. And their description and injuries are totally consistent with the story that they told. There was no doubt the event happened.

• 4:01:50Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think? What do you make of this?

• 4:01:53Speaker 05

  I have no idea. Like I say, they came, I was one of the people that George Saran, who was the IG who got the case, I talked to. And to this day, I've talked to him a couple of years back when this came up again. And this said, you know, see, this is the problem. And again, my UFO book, the first line is that I wrote is UFOs are real. The last paragraph is, whatever this is, it is more complex than we can imagine.

• 4:02:30Shawn Ryan?

  Are there any other incidents that you feel were extremely significant?

• 4:02:38Speaker 05

  Oh, hundreds.

• 4:02:39Shawn Ryan?

  Can you go into some more?

• 4:02:42Speaker 05

  Fated Giant case, this is one where, well, first of all, the Northern Tier sightings were ones that were going on across the northern United States. These were all the missile bases. Side light, one of the things that was interesting, and if you, I think it's in Blue Book, that's one of the reports from a young patrolman, a air patrolman who was out guarding the base, and he reports the missile. The caveat was, the only reason we report, he reported this is because he's new and hasn't seen them before. The point is, everybody is seeing this stuff. Now, the, this particular case.

• 4:03:28Speaker 05

  Bob Salas, he's a missile control officer, but

• 4:03:35Speaker 05

  air patrolmen on top are seeing UFOs. And they call down and says, you know, what do we do? And all of a sudden he goes, I haven't got time to talk about that. Missiles are going offline. And seven to eight missiles go offline.

• 4:03:55Speaker 05

  And so he calls back to NORAD headquarters. And goes, I miss, and say, we haven't got time to talk to you. This is Echo in November. I've got the sites mixed up. Says, the other site is already down 10 for 10. Now, we are talking here. I mean, if you know the nuclear triad, this is, you know, you want significant when, when, when you have. Now, MPDI is two missiles. Well, basically you'd get one every six months in the entire wing. And here you've got, you know, 17, 18 down simultaneously. And, you know, there's no doubt about it.

• 4:04:37Speaker 05

  Now, I do know what happened because I talked to most of the people involved. That they went, I mean,

• 4:04:46Speaker 05

  this was a WTF, right? Huge. And not like it went unnoticed and they went through and looked at every possibility. And could not come up with a, I mean, they did tests on EMP was the short with him. And nobody has ever come up with a solution. I might mention, it's not just us. This is one where you have the Soviet. This is where George Knapp gets involved. He went over, he'd been in the Soviet Union and Russia later. In Ukraine, there's another one where their case is a little different.

• 4:05:30Speaker 05

  UFO hovers up here for hours with hundreds of witnesses. They don't shut the missiles down. They start spinning them up. So, and this guy's, you know, the launch office is about to start World War III, and they can't stop it. And again, this thing has been hovering there for hours, plenty of witnesses, and then all of a sudden, it shuts off. And now, the difference that I think is critical here is that, see, we trusted our launch control officers. Soviets did not. And so, the Soviet system was centralized.

• 4:06:14Speaker 05

  It had to have been, in order for that to happen, it had to run from Moscow. And obviously, it didn't. Ours was central, so it was shut down. There's, and runs up. And this was one, he had gone, I think it was Russia, Russia by the time he had brought those files out. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know how much more significant than you get than

• 4:06:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:06:43Speaker 05

  screwing with nuclear weapons.

• 4:06:45Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, no kidding. What, if you, you had to have thought about, where did these come from? Are they coming from? Where are they coming from?

• 4:06:58Speaker 05

  You want to venture out there?

• 4:07:00Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:07:01Speaker 00

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• 4:07:32Speaker 05

  I think that's the wrong question.

• 4:07:34Shawn Ryan?

  What is the bright question?

• 4:07:36Speaker 05

  Well, you know, see, I don't, I come down against the ET hypothesis. That's the extra little hypothesis, little gray guys from Zeta Vaticuli coming here.

• 4:07:49Speaker 05

  Words that we're using now have to do more with ultra terrestrial.

• 4:07:55Speaker 05

  My point would be that there are a number of possibilities, interdimensional temporal distortion, time travelers and things like that. Now, this gets into, if you haven't been involved in this, sounding really crazy.

• 4:08:10Shawn Ryan?

  That's okay.

• 4:08:11Speaker 05

  But as you look at these things, you go, you know, one of my points is that there are reports of incidents between humans and sentient non-humans throughout the entirety of human history and in all cultures.

• 4:08:31Speaker 05

  My pet phrase is, if they fly in a little tin cans, that's kind of a new wrinkle to a very old story.

• 4:08:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, when you say this, um, well, if you get into the skinwalker wrench, the beings of some kind moving back and forth through dimension, if you're using an interdimensional construct, the where, you know, overcomes all the issues of how do you get there from here and whatnot, though I do think you can probably get super liminal. I know a lot of folks will disagree with that, but, um, it gets away from the whole problem of, like I said, little gray guys from Zeta Vaticuli.

• 4:09:23Speaker 05

  You're back to your fundamental issue of consciousness.

• 4:09:32Shawn Ryan?

  What about it? Where are you going?

• 4:09:36Speaker 05

  Well, if consciousness creates matter and that, that this is some interaction on consciousness that, you know, beyond our understanding at this point, certainly.

• 4:09:49Shawn Ryan?

  So you think-

• 4:09:50Speaker 05

  But remember, as I said, not just, you know, the sensing, you get into ghosts and the spiritual beings into kind of a host of things that have been reported for millennia.

• 4:10:06Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, let's move into, we'll come back, I want to come back, we're going to revisit that question when we get into your time with Bigelow at Skinwalker Ranch, but I would like to move into some of the, since we're, let's move into some of the paranormal stuff.

• 4:10:22Speaker 05

  We have been in paranormal-

• 4:10:24Shawn Ryan?

  A hundred, you've been to over a hundred countries-

• 4:10:27Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 4:10:28Shawn Ryan?

  -studying this stuff. And so, I know you had a lot of, you had a lot of time visiting shamans throughout the world. What sparked your interest in shamans?

• 4:10:45Speaker 05

  Well, again, this is stuff that's sort of evolved, and of course, the history of shamans. One of the big things, of course, is ayahuasca. My wife is sort of a devotee there and have been at a lot of ceremonies in different places. And, um, yes, I think she's the one who, really, from the shamanic and studying from a religious aspect, has kind of driven it. And in fact, we're getting ready to go to the UK

• 4:11:23Speaker 05

  to Arthur Finley College to teach transmediumship in a few weeks.

• 4:11:32Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 4:11:33Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 4:11:35Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. We'll get into that, too.

• 4:11:38Speaker 05

  Okay, but again, of course, ayahuasca. And what I've seen there, I don't know how much you want to discuss that. But let me jump to where I think you'd want to go. And that is where you see physical kinds of things. And people ask me, what's the most unusual circumstance? And that's probably in West Africa, studying voodoo. And trust me, voodoo's real. And voodoo is not just a religion there. It's an entire way of life.

• 4:12:20Speaker 05

  And the things we saw with the shamans just defy the laws of thermodynamics. They would stand on the fire, heat the fire, sit in the fire, and come away unscathed. I am videotaped a lot closer than we are. So it's hot. So there's no doubt about, you know, heat or radiation off of it. I've got videos, there's one in particular where this head shaman is there and he puts a thing on his tongue and his face disappears in there. Now, critical issue. Got long chin whiskers. Don't singe.

• 4:13:05Speaker 05

  Now, the other aspect was they brought out two kids that were about 10 years old. And he's gonna pass the power to them. And he goes like this, you know, and touches them. And they're, no, he just say, they're not fully initiated yet. But they're still handling fire in ways that would burn out. By the way, back in, you know, you want to circle back. And Tony Robbins, one of the things that we did with him was firewalking. This is back in the, in the InCom days. So, see, all of these things keep getting integrated in ways that are hard to understand. But we did firewalking.

• 4:13:51Shawn Ryan?

  What was, what was your goal? What was your goal with exploring shamanism throughout the world?

• 4:14:01Shawn Ryan?

  Just was it just curiosity?

• 4:14:03Speaker 05

  As in past tense.

• 4:14:05Shawn Ryan?

  Well, is it, is it curiosity?

• 4:14:08Speaker 05

  Yeah. Um.

• 4:14:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, I wish I knew. I mean, they just, these things just keep evolving. And there are some things that are coming up that are proprietary that are gonna be changing. It's at least on the level of Grush talking about UFOs and do we have any? But there are some big things on the, on the horizon that.

• 4:14:40Speaker 05

  Hopefully our understanding of consciousness. I, I don't think you can totally understand all of this. Again, the, the issues of complexity come up pretty quickly.

• 4:14:58Shawn Ryan?

  You had mentioned ayahuasca ceremonies.

• 4:15:02Speaker 05

  Right.

• 4:15:04Shawn Ryan?

  What are some of the things that you've experienced and, and why? Let me rephrase this question.

• 4:15:16Shawn Ryan?

  What is the connection with psychedelics and the altered consciousness?

• 4:15:23Speaker 05

  First of all, I do not think the psychopharmacology answers the basic question. I wish we know DMT, dimethyltryptamine is the supposedly psychoactive substance.

• 4:15:39Speaker 05

  Having said that, the things that I've witnessed. Uh, I have seen people take huge amounts and have no effect. I've seen them take minor amounts and have transformational effects. That's why I say the psychopharmacology, because that's based on you take X amount with X body weight or condition. You know, we understand the result. Uh, Victoria.

• 4:16:09Speaker 05

  I mean, she will say that the goddess or the mother ayahuasca calls, that it's literally a calling.

• 4:16:19Speaker 05

  And I've seen it under a number of circumstances. And we did a lot in Peru, near Iquitos, have been in Ecuador, and again in Santo Daime, which is a rapidly evolving religion. I was in Brazil.

• 4:16:38Speaker 05

  Having said that, we've seen other things in Om Bado and Contempla.

• 4:16:47Speaker 05

  Many of them have similar kinds of things, some without any external stimulation.

• 4:16:58Speaker 05

  One of the strangest events, and it's one that I have a whole segment on Brazil in the book.

• 4:17:07Speaker 05

  We had attended an Om Bado ceremony, about 300 folks, about 10 gringos.

• 4:17:18Speaker 05

  This is near Corteba, a little city of 3 million people you never heard of in South Brazil. There's lots of those. The people don't realize how big the country is, how many these cities are. But anyway, they called forward and said, "Does anybody want a healing?" And Victoria always jumps out. And the head voodoo priestess is going down, a young woman, probably in her twenties, and she goes like this.

• 4:17:51Speaker 05

  And Victoria says something, basically, with possession. We're talking about becoming possessed by another spirit. And now, this is a group that's used to seeing spirit possession take place as part of the religion.

• 4:18:13Speaker 05

  They don't see gringos possessed. And so Victoria is out spinning.

• 4:18:19Speaker 05

  I mean, you talk about stopping the show, that was it.

• 4:18:25Speaker 05

  And one of the guys comes over and says, "Well, I was taking pictures." "Say, you're a reporter?" I said, "No, that's my wife." He says, "She'll be okay." And does not remember anything that happened.

• 4:18:38Speaker 05

  But is, you're talking about total, full-body possession. And you do see some of these things with the psychoactive substances. So these things get intertwined. And I don't think there's direct causal links, the necessary take. Because he has had, you know, pretty profound transformational experiences in the ayahuasca arena. I've tried it a couple of times, not a fan. I want to emphasize, this will never be a recreational drug. There are side effects, politely called purging.

• 4:19:20Speaker 05

  Sometimes running at both hands, you know, this will kind of, you're not going to do this at a party. My, you know, personal, definitely, there were things going on. And you're seeing colors that probably don't exist. I do recommend people look at, we had met, oh, what's his name? The ayahuasca artist, and if you walk to the paintings, they're about as close to what you might see in that state.

• 4:20:04Speaker 05

  But, you know, nothing I could say is unexplained, but I have seen, you know, people get really, really have mystical types of experiences. And interestingly, these usually go all night, or a good bit of it, and then they stop. But the next day, a little hangover, or, you know. And our friend is Ron Huelock, who's known as the gringo shaman. I do recommend, but, you know, he says, you know, it is going to end. It's interesting, you see people screaming and shouting and having, you know, it's just terrible.

• 4:20:49Speaker 05

  The next morning, say, that's exactly what I needed. I do think that is an area that we need to be looking at in PTSD, by the way, one of the things. I was talking to Ildefan last night.

• 4:21:03Speaker 05

  And program, you can see that Lisa Ling did one called This Is Life, where she does look at this, Ron's involved, we missed her by a day down in Akitos. But, um, yeah, like I said, the bottom line is psychopharmacology doesn't answer it. Their position is that there's more than the cup and the limp.

• 4:21:30Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh. Do you, do you think you're able to tap into a higher consciousness?

• 4:21:36Speaker 05

  We have to describe higher there. They do certainly get into other sort of forms of consciousness. And my personal experience was seeing certain, and you do see it in the paintings as well, things that emerge there that seem to be kind of universal symbols that are indicative of cultures that they've never had contact with. And you go, how would, you know, where would that come from? You could, of course, you know, dream it up. But, um, yeah, what's become popular, of course, now in the US is microdosing.

• 4:22:21Speaker 05

  We're doing it for some sessions we were in, well, the Santo Daimi, which is a all over religious ceremony, and then they go through the song, I think the first one was like 21 different songs that goes on for hours and hours. But, um, been able to watch the folks there and it's, um, you know, they're definitely out of it in the kind of normal sense. Although, one of the things I mentioned, because I do know, like, first time I tried, uh, you're very, you can be very much aware of the current thing.

• 4:23:03Speaker 05

  So the saying of you've lost your senses, are you gonna say something? That not at all, which you have, you still have control and make it, although you are exposed to other realities, senses, as you might expect.

• 4:23:22Shawn Ryan?

  Where do you think these realities come from?

• 4:23:26Speaker 05

  Where does reality come from?

• 4:23:27Shawn Ryan?

  These alter, these other realities that you're experiencing on psychedelics, where do they come from?

• 4:23:34Speaker 05

  Oh, no, wait, wait. Are we talking about psychedelics, or are we talking about reality? Because psychedelics would be a kind of a tiny subset.

• 4:23:45Shawn Ryan?

  Well, you had mentioned people are experiencing...

• 4:23:50Speaker 05

  What are they experiencing?

• 4:23:52Shawn Ryan?

  Yes.

• 4:23:53Speaker 05

  Well, that's actually an interesting question. The short answer would be, don't know. Because, um, you know, are these other realities that they're now having access to? Uh, or is this just something that's being generated in the mind? The thing, you know? When you answer the question about reality, remember we go back to when we say the physical arises from reality. So this is an experience that you normally have certain cognitive aspects to it. But that would be far from the saying that's the, the cause, or the...

• 4:24:38Shawn Ryan?

  Downstairs, we had had a short conversation about reincarnation. I'd like you to talk about reincarnation.

• 4:24:52Speaker 05

  Twenty-five words or less? Um, well, what I was alluding to at the time was from near-death experiences that most of the people, uh, I know, I know most of the key researchers in the field. And as the past president, used to answer all kinds of letters and things on it.

• 4:25:23Speaker 05

  And the bottom line is, you know, the thing that makes the most sense from our perspective is some form of reincarnation. Now, when you get into that, I mean, this is kind of an hours and hours of speculation. One of the ones that comes up initially is, well, we'll take a Hindu religion. Or can you be an animal, you know, the sacred cows and all that? I think Buddha said he was a rabbit six times or something like that. So, you know, are there can you reincarnate in other forms?

• 4:26:03Speaker 05

  A natural one that comes up is, well, if here, what about other planets? Now, one of the things, like I said, in the ET arena, is there extraterrestrial life beyond all reasonable doubt? And you don't have to, that's pure numbers. Then, was it 16 septillion inhabitable planets? I mean, the number just keeps going. And even if you're a pure materialist, you would have to say just purely chemicals getting together must have happened someplace in that.

• 4:26:45Speaker 05

  And you go, well, does it happen simultaneously to our development, etc.? But it says, yeah, there's intelligent life someplace in the universe. So if you extrapolate that to reincarnation and say, well, does it have to be Earth? You know, what form does it take? I mean, this gets into really complex. Again, cognitive approaches that...

• 4:27:15Speaker 05

  Well, if you want me to take it a step further for you.

• 4:27:20Shawn Ryan?

  I'd love for you to take it a step further.

• 4:27:23Speaker 05

  That, you know, it's not just that you say, "Well, I asked you the question and you didn't answer is, who were you?" And I ask a lot of people, and a number of people say, "Well, I remember, you know, various aspects of things," as if they're not... Um, suppose that you actually planned life, and that, you know, what you're playing out, and then you get into the whole free will versus predestination conundrum. And what they would say is, "You have free will, you chose the life form that certain events are gonna happen,

• 4:28:05Speaker 05

  that you're gonna be afforded a chance to make decisions, and this is all a learning experience." And, yeah, you'll make some bad decisions along the way, and maybe if you come back again, you'd...

• 4:28:22Shawn Ryan?

  Makes the better.

• 4:28:23Speaker 05

  Not make that, as they say, karma's a bitch.

• 4:28:29Speaker 05

  But, um, yeah, I'd say the evidence has come out pretty strong that, um...

• 4:28:37Speaker 05

  And I, by the way, I try not to get into people's religious beliefs and all that, and we get into, in the ease, we go into this, the pure, "Here's what the evidence says." So, I would emphasize here, what we're talking about is highly speculative, and I recognize that. Uh, there are many people who've studied much, uh, much more, and of course, there are whole religions based on the... By the way, it was in a tenet of the Christian religion up until, was it 566, 533, where it was voted out, uh, in Constantinople. And, uh, some people say that this is kind of a control mysticism, 'cause if you believe,

• 4:29:20Speaker 05

  you know, all the stuff in reincarnation, nothing's wrong, you say, "What the hell, why don't I..." You know, do lots of bad things or things that feel good or whatnot that ethically you probably shouldn't because, you know, it's a free ride. And a lot of them say that's not the point. And this is when you get into what's the application or meaning of this. I do, uh, doing a lot of work with mediums and have several that, uh, you know, the

• 4:29:56Speaker 05

  kinds of things that they're reporting highly accurately, I mean, certainly indicates that this is an approach and the reason you're doing whatever it is that you're doing is part of your evolutionary or learning process. Maybe Hindus are right and we're going to, you know, move to Atman or...

• 4:30:26Shawn Ryan?

  Let's have the free will or predestination debate. What, what do you believe personally?

• 4:30:36Speaker 05

  I believe it's certainly a conundrum and that there seems to be elements of both. Uh, it sounds, it appears as if that what you're having is, um, again, certain lessons are provided and hopefully you will choose an evolutionary path that will help you and you might not have to come back and do that again. Uh, you certainly, when you get into, one of the big ones, I was talking to one of the main researchers just the other day, and of course, the instant one that comes up in, in both of our backgrounds, that's why war.

• 4:31:23Speaker 05

  And sort of the bottom line is, could you need it? Because of the souls that have to evolve that, you know, pay, you know, pay for what you did and lives taken and, you know, bad things done. As opposed to, as I think we both know, there are opportunities for great good in war. I mean, people do very heroic things that are, you know, self-sacrificing and things of that nature. Uh, but on the other things, really bad things happen too.

• 4:32:01Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh, uh huh. What do you think happens when you die?

• 4:32:11Speaker 05

  Well, I can say, again, I hate to get into this with, you know, because I don't want to interfere with people's religious beliefs. Uh, I would say the evidence is overwhelming that consciousness continues in some form. Now, the question is, what form? And I think the biggest issue, sort of unresolved, does consciousness survive or does personality survive? Which are different issues. I mean, some would say you merge into a greater essence, you know, generic consciousness per se.

• 4:32:51Speaker 05

  Having said that, we, again, working with mediums, when they report from discarnate people and accurately, um, you know, seem to be aware of what's going on in life, and they describe, well, I was this, I was sick, I had this happen, it's also all the physical attributes of the person as they existed before. Uh, so that has, there has to be some connection with personality for them to develop that.

• 4:33:27Shawn Ryan?

  That's a good point.

• 4:33:28Speaker 05

  The answer is, I don't have a good answer for which is which. Uh, there are others that I know of, I'll mention one medium that I have great confidence is Suzanne Giesemann. I don't know if you know that name at all.

• 4:33:42Shawn Ryan?

  I don't.

• 4:33:43Speaker 05

  Okay, well, Suzanne's a medium, take hours to get into the whole course there, but... She's also a retired Navy commander who is married to a former Navy captain. And she used to be the assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. In fact, when I saw her in 9/11, she was with Hugh Shelton. And I saw her give this presentation. I said, "Hugh and I used to be majors at the same time in the same place." I said, "He did a lot better than I did." But, so I said, "I noticed that you never mentioned his name."

• 4:34:27Speaker 05

  And she says, "Well, I talked to him, he just doesn't want to be associated." But Suzanne had never had, knowingly had psychic experiences or anything like that. I think they were sailing off Croatia. She and her husband were, you know, on their own. He had a daughter from a previous marriage who had joined the Marines. Was pregnant, walking across the tarmac and got hit by lightning and killed. And so they came back and Suzanne started working on, how do I contact Susan?

• 4:35:09Speaker 05

  It happened to be Susan's daughter's name as well. And worked on it and is now one of the premier. I mean, she now contacts spirits on a continuous basis and does it for other people. And has one, where it merges is, she has a group called Sinaiya. Reports as a singular entity who is saying they are a collection of spirits who are gonna collaborating but come forth as a single one. Now, how you wrap your mind around that is, you know, really difficult. But, yeah, we became friends over, like I say, knowing some of the same people.

• 4:35:54Speaker 05

  Her book, "What's This to Loop Back In?" Her first book was "The Medium and the Doctor." And it was about Ann Gaiman, who is, and Ann is the one who hold that fork up that I told you that dropped over that got us interested in PK. Now, how do you interrelate all of those things?

• 4:36:16Shawn Ryan?

  I have no idea. When you talk about, let's, let's... So we're in the, what happens when you die? Do you, do you, do you return to some type of generic consciousness? What do you personally believe?

• 4:36:37Speaker 05

  That's a good question. I'll let you know when I figure it out. I, I am personally 100% convinced that consciousness continues. Exactly what form that is and all that, that, that gets into more difficult territory, certainly. Again, as I said, I was the president of International Association for Near Death Studies, and I know most of those key people, and the stories they tell are just, um, I'll digress

• 4:37:18Speaker 05

  into one, because there's several, but Mary Neal is one of those. Mary's a medical doctor, lives in Wyoming. She was in northern Chile kayaking. And what's significant about this case are the, the physical attributes that cannot be denied. So they're out, it's the last day of their kayaking trip, and she's the last, there's a, her, her husband, who normally went with them, did not that day. So she's at the trail end, and they're going over pretty good.

• 4:38:03Speaker 05

  Now, she's highly qualified, can do cat three, cat four, no, no problem, which she does. And something happens, and where she wants to go is blocked, so she gets forced to a different direction, goes over the waterfall, and goes down about 30 feet, and is stuck, nose down. Now, she's in there, and you got your kayak, and there's a quick release, but because of the water, let's try, the water come over, can't reach that. Uh, the way she gets out of it eventually is her legs break above the knee, and it's like bending this way.

• 4:38:47Speaker 05

  And gets, you know, they find her, she's probably underwater for thirty-five minutes.

• 4:38:56Speaker 05

  And, um, you know, the point there is you cannot hold your breath for thirty-five minutes. Yeah. And so there's no doubt about the, that she probably physically died. And they finally find her body downstream and bring her back. And two guys come out, uh, from the shore. Now, again, we're in a remote area of Chile.

• 4:39:25Speaker 05

  And they take her, by the way, there's some other miracle things that happen, rocks up here and that. They take her to the waiting ambulance. The point is there are no ambulances in this part of Chile. And there's one that happens to be waiting at the road that takes her in. Um, she also talks about, uh, she was out, met God and those sorts of things. But also had an experience where she is given information that no mother wants to hear. She has four small children at the time. And the information is that your son will die at seventeen.

• 4:40:10Speaker 05

  Um, sure enough, turned seventeen, car zigs and zags and, and does, in fact, she said,

• 4:40:19Speaker 05

  until a year before that, she didn't even tell her husband about this aspect of it. Uh, but here you have, you know, the physical drowning that must have taken place. Uh, you see the pictures, there's no doubt about the legs. I mean, that was just awful and was crippled for a long time. She's an orthopedic surgeon, by the way, uh, and still is. And so you have that. You have these two guys up here who, they went back looking for them and aren't there. But you have an ambulance. That isn't there, that physically does take her to, you know, the hospital.

• 4:41:03Speaker 05

  You have information about events in the future. This is why you get into the question of free will versus is it predestined that some would be killed at that point? And this is obviously years before, but did, what decisions could he have made that might have, he might not have been out skateboarding at that time, and yet did happen? So, these are the kind of cases when you say, one other guy I will mention is Evan Alexander. I recommend, he wrote Proof of Heaven.

• 4:41:45Speaker 05

  Uh, no relative, but his case, and what's interesting about him, this guy was a neurosurgeon at Harvard for 25 years. And of course, didn't believe in any of this nonsense. And the, uh, the highlights of his case, he has end grain meningitis, dies, well, is dying and get takes, taken to his own hospital.

• 4:42:21Speaker 05

  And I recognize him, so he is out for a week. Uh, and said, he knows, again, there's a neurosurgeon who's been teaching neurosurgery. Consciousness could not have been there. And yet he has a whole thing, you can read in his books on what happened to them, all of that. Critical issue, I mentioned, he, oh, I didn't, not a relative, but he was adopted at, at birth. Turns out that his birth parents married after he was adopted and had more children. So he's got physical. While he is out.

• 4:43:08Speaker 05

  Wherever this is for this week, he has an escort of this female butterfly who takes him around and escorts him through higher realms and maybe gets into very complex things. One of the reasons you believe in, you know, continuation and, you know, the complexity of the universe. Um, so he revives and comes back. Now, he's never met, the birth parents had never wanted to meet, but he's now meets them and finds out that this sister whom he has never met, and he now sees pictures of her.

• 4:43:51Speaker 05

  That you can see where this is going. That's the guide.

• 4:43:56Shawn Ryan?

  Whoa.

• 4:43:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:44:05Shawn Ryan?

  Do you have contact with these people?

• 4:44:07Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. All the time. But I mean, there are so many of them. I just picked a couple of the really, you know, where it gets beyond, well, again, what Suzanne uses, NOE, called No Other Explanation.

• 4:44:24Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. What, what do you think about manifestation?

• 4:44:33Speaker 05

  About what?

• 4:44:34Shawn Ryan?

  Manifestation, manifesting. Manifesting things into existence.

• 4:44:40Speaker 05

  Uh.

• 4:44:43Shawn Ryan?

  Do you believe in that?

• 4:44:46Speaker 05

  Can you be a bit more specific about, about physical things, developing things in the future?

• 4:44:54Shawn Ryan?

  Developing things in the future.

• 4:44:55Speaker 05

  I've met people who have done this kind of as a occupation.

• 4:44:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:45:01Speaker 05

  And they talk about manifesting your life and that as opposed to physical reports that are appearing and, and things that precipitate into physical reality.

• 4:45:13Shawn Ryan?

  I've not heard about anything that comes into physical reality.

• 4:45:17Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:45:18Shawn Ryan?

  Can you give me an example?

• 4:45:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:45:28Speaker 05

  My, uh, my table mate at C and J C was Pakistani. I chose to have a foreign student.

• 4:45:40Speaker 05

  And we got off into some of these things. And, uh, hopefully I got the case right. But anyway, yeah. Not sure what the relative, senior relative, older relative that he had, said that, um, where he lived, every night, he'd wake up in the morning and there would be money on the sill.

• 4:46:12Speaker 05

  By the way, his father, uh, must have been grandfather had a VC. You know, had fought for the brother, actually VC. Wow. That's MOH level here. Yep. Yeah. And, uh, but anyway, said that, uh, yeah, they would wake up every morning. It wasn't a big amount, just a small amount of money would be there. And then told somebody about it, stopped.

• 4:46:44Speaker 05

  But where it came from, how it got there. Now, if you want, well, we can get into the thing. Well, what happened with us in Mongolia? Had specific examples of that. I've got them in the drawer. First one, we were meeting with a shaman bull. Uh, and this is up near the Siberian border. We're chasing the reindeer shaman here. But anyway, went in and we did a ceremony. And Victoria and I were the only two foreigners there. Had a few people, locals. Is it familiar with the Mongolian gear? So small, I forget how many were there. But he's doing this ceremony and all of a sudden we hear this

• 4:47:29Speaker 05

  thuk, thuk, thuk, thuk. And this thing goes rolling across the floor.

• 4:47:35Speaker 05

  So I picked it up and when I got home, sometime later, I took it down to Hal's place. Hal put it on and they said, "Oh, it's a tectite." I didn't know. A tectite is formed by the ejecta from a meteor hitting the ground. Relatively rare, not rare, not diamond rare, but relatively rare. What got my impression most is I, you know, this thing happens. He says, "Oh, you should keep it." And I'm shocked. And it's the local people going, "Oh, wow." You know, looking at it like they've never seen this. So it's not part of your stick, if you will.

• 4:48:19Speaker 05

  And again, it's kind of like the voodoo folks. These are people who are poverty level, look up to dirt. So the idea that he's pocketing these things and could have parked it and dropped it. Yeah. Did he? I don't think there's any chance that that happened. So where did it come from? More spectacular, a number of nights later, we had been out. Forget how many nights. It was the eighth night and we had these little, you know, pop-up tents that we were using. Victoria and I had one and of course, it's just room enough for the two sleeping pads or sitting.

• 4:49:01Speaker 05

  But the point is, every morning, you turn it upside down and shake it, just shake the dirt out. It's that light. And we've done that for eight nights now. Wake up the next morning and between our pads is a 50 pence Australian coin. Have no idea. Now, remember, we're near Siberia. This 50 pence Australian coin is lying between our bed.

• 4:49:35Speaker 05

  So those are the firsthand kinds of things, firsthand experiences.

• 4:49:39Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. I mean, what do you, what's that conversation like when you wake up and there's fifty Australian?

• 4:49:47Speaker 05

  Where did this come from?

• 4:49:49Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:49:50Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, there's only, we had the driver, we had a local guy, the guy, the driver, I mean, that they slipped it in in the middle of the night.

• 4:50:06Speaker 05

  Probability approaches zero.

• 4:50:08Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:50:09Speaker 05

  So, yeah, how do you explain it? I don't know, but I just say I do have that and I keep it in the safe. Just because these things have a habit of disappearing. It's like when I showed it to hell, I mean, I physically carried it down there. I'm not gonna mail these things around.

• 4:50:28Speaker 05

  Like too many people say, whoa, lost in the mail or something. But how do you explain this stuff?

• 4:50:38Speaker 05

  Don't know.

• 4:50:39Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, you have to be thinking about this all the time.

• 4:50:45Shawn Ryan?

  All these things that you've witnessed, that you've heard,

• 4:50:50Shawn Ryan?

  that you've experienced, I mean, it's, it's,

• 4:50:54Shawn Ryan?

  just in the couple hours we've been talking, there's dozens.

• 4:51:01Shawn Ryan?

  How do you sleep at night?

• 4:51:03Speaker 05

  Pretty well, most of the time.

• 4:51:05Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:51:08Shawn Ryan?

  Have you manifested anything? Have you tried to?

• 4:51:13Speaker 05

  Oh, tried and important, no.

• 4:51:16Shawn Ryan?

  Why not?

• 4:51:16Speaker 05

  But these things happen.

• 4:51:23Speaker 05

  I say, these things sort of, well, my main take on it is, I don't consider myself psychic, per se, but a lot of these things happen around me. Seem to be more of a catalyst than a, well, just that experienced a lot of them. A lot of strange things have happened.

• 4:51:50Shawn Ryan?

  Back to consciousness, do you think we're all tapped into one kind of fabric?

• 4:51:55Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Well, my friend Larry Dossi wrote the book on that. I don't know if you know Larry or not, but he's, again, MD. One of the ones for our paths crossed in a number of areas, but he was actually a medical doctor with the 101st Airborne in Vietnam. We had, you know, comparable stories there, but yeah, you can read his stories. Yeah, everything is connected.

• 4:52:36Shawn Ryan?

  Let's move back.

• 4:52:37Speaker 05

  We don't always do the best to, you know, sometimes when they say, you know, what you do hurts you, that sort of looks like it's really true.

• 4:52:50Shawn Ryan?

  Let's move back into some of your career. Let's move back. How did you get connected with Robert Bigelow?

• 4:52:58Speaker 05

  Oh, well, the first time I met him was just a handshake sort of thing. John Mack and Dave Pritchard. John Mack is, do you know John?

• 4:53:13Shawn Ryan?

  I do not.

• 4:53:14Speaker 05

  Oh, in UFO circles, that's an automatic. John was a Pulitzer Prize winner, medical doctor at Harvard University, a whole story worth knowing. And he had a group studying abduction, in case he's best known. In fact, his book is called Abduction. Dave Pritchard was an optical physicist, again, premier level, and they held a conference at MIT. An interesting thing they might have to come back to is when we arrived at the conference,

• 4:53:53Speaker 05

  that was one of the speakers, and I was talking about the relationship between UFOs and near-death experiences. And we all had to sign a statement that we understood it was at MIT, not by MIT. And you fast forward to where I just came from, Stanford.

• 4:54:15Speaker 05

  And they were very supportive of Gary Nolan's thing at Stanford. I think that's hugely significant. Harvard also has Abi Loeb, whom I met there at Stanford as well. And he's has astronomy department at Harvard. And they now have the Galileo project that studies it. And so the point is, from institutional perspective, they have shifted in 30 from years, like, don't mention our name, to, you know, yeah, we can support this. So for Bob, I just briefly met him there.

• 4:54:55Speaker 05

  What I did not know at that time is that his son had just died, like, within the last 30 days at that juncture. Fast forward, maybe a couple of years or something. I've got a group at at my house. I was living in Santa Fe. And Al Footoff was there, I think Jacques Balle and some other, I forget all, you know, what the whole group was. It was over the weekend. And talking about, this was kind of a follow on to the Advanced Theoretical Physics project. We did keep in touch even after it retired.

• 4:55:40Speaker 05

  And out of the blue, it's Sunday morning, and folks are getting ready to go to Albuquerque to catch their flights. And the phone rings, and it's, I am Bob Bigelow, I've heard about you. You got any projects that'd be of interest? And the short answer then was yes, we had another one, some guy that he funded independently. And a short time after that.

• 4:56:09Speaker 05

  He came back and he was, um, he said he wanted to create an institute, which became NIDS. And at the time, we were, um, the Santa Fe Institute was there, which was primarily in chaos theory. And you had Murray Gell-Mann, the Nobel physicist. And on the board were people I knew from MIT, but you know, kind of at that level of science. And they were the premier, uh, institute in physics. By the way, if you, this was another one that crosses over, you read The Lost World, we're talking about Michael Crichton. Uh, you see a lot of people in that book are the ones from Santa Fe, cause it's based

• 4:56:53Speaker 05

  on, uh, it was Jurassic Park, was based on, uh, uh, chaos theory, as well as encapsulation of, uh, DNA, et cetera. Um, so. Lennel had kind of made it clear, they didn't wanna push non-lethal weapons. And in the meantime, they'd worked with the Council on Foreign Relations and the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Director was being developed as a direct response to that. That's kind of a side story.

• 4:57:34Speaker 05

  So I was going, the, the system there was very age-sensitive. Uh, so it was in the sixties at the time, and so, uh, retiring was a, a pretty good option. And then, uh, from that, he developed NIDS. And I was the first one there and then helped develop the, the whole board. But it was one of these serendipitous, out of the blue, first contacts, if you will.

• 4:58:08Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:58:09Speaker 05

  You can't plan these things.

• 4:58:10Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of stuff were you guys studying at, uh, Skinwalker?

• 4:58:14Speaker 05

  Well, no, Skinwalker's actually a subset of NIDS now.

• 4:58:18Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 4:58:19Speaker 05

  So I don't know which one you want to, looking at the ranch or the...

• 4:58:24Shawn Ryan?

  Let's look at the overall, big picture.

• 4:58:26Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 4:58:28Speaker 05

  NIDS was formed to study two specific things. One was a continuation of consciousness and the other was UFOs. And I had suggested to Bob unsuccessfully that you ought not be developing subset organizations. First thing, he's an engineer by trade. First thing, he draws a box and says, we got this and you got UFOs and you got cattle mutilations and you got abduction. You're not right to the board. My suggestion was not to do that in the form follows function.

• 4:59:08Speaker 05

  Us correct data and see where it goes and create an organizational structure based on the data and the kinds of things that we're receiving. Put together, no doubt, a world-class board. Yeah, one you wouldn't recognize. You know Ted Rockwell? I doubt that. He was Rick Over's technical director, but very interested in these phenomena and that. Edgar Mitchell was on, Jack Schmidt from Apollo 17.

• 4:59:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, can't remember all of them. Hal Kit, I think was it? Kit Green is the first president of the board. Marty Pels had come. I brought several from Los Alamos. One of the key ones was Dean Judd. He is, Dean is particularly key and where these things again cross over. Dean had been the chief scientist for SDI. More importantly, well, as importantly, after he did that, you know what the NIO was?

• 5:00:32Speaker 05

  The National Intelligence Officer?

• 5:00:34Shawn Ryan?

  Yes.

• 5:00:35Speaker 05

  Okay, now, this is back before the DNI is created. So, the organizational structure, the CIA had two hats. The Director of CIA was the Director of CIA and the Director of Central Intelligence, which is different. And so, as the, under the IC, he created the IC staff. Because you can't go to the President and say CIA thinks this, but DIA thinks that. You've got to come in with an integrated position. So, these were the guys who had the national position on any given topic.

• 5:01:18Speaker 05

  Now, most of them are geographic. I got the guys for Asia, for Europe, or, you know, Middle East, etc. But there was one for technology, for science and tech, and that was Dean Judd. My point there is, now, Dean and I knew each other extraordinarily well. I mean, we traveled together. I brought him on a board for SOCOM and whatnot. And he's working, he's willing to work with Bob. Now, did not want his name out there. He used a different name in the public.

• 5:01:58Speaker 05

  He definitely did not know anything about any integral, you know, ongoing program in there. But remember, he's the guy who's got to go to the President and say, you know, here's what we know on all issues in space and whatnot. Didn't know that. So, he's another example. Yeah, there was kind of a who's who in science and whatnot. So, put the board together and...

• 5:02:30Speaker 05

  We initially, one of the first Biggies, we actually had a conference on life after death research, had about thirty or forty folks present for that. And then, of course, UFOs were coming along. Then, out of the blue, kind of came along Terry and the, you know, exposure to the ranch. By the way, it was never Skinwalker Ranch while Ned's had it.

• 5:03:04Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:03:04Speaker 05

  I mean, that's a name that came along after and has attached. We just call it like "The Ranch." And, yeah, that was an opportunity that just emerged and it got to be sort of because of the number and complexity of the events that were happening. And then, we heard Terry's story, and Frankie believed him, think he's straight up and very honest, and bad things happening to his family, know why he sold. I mean, you can't blame

• 5:03:40Speaker 05

  him for that. And it was taking a lot of heat in the area. And so, Bob just decided to buy the ranch, and then that kind of became a focal laboratory, if you will. He had a living lab, and we started studying and going up there. I said I was the one who spent the first night I was with him, the day he bought the ranch, and spent the night there. Nothing. It does seem, and one of the questions that comes up, is that certain people seem to be focal points for some of this, and have more of the mystical experiences than

• 5:04:25Speaker 05

  others. I didn't. There was one of our group, pretty well known, but he seemed to be more sensitive and have strange things around him and...

• 5:04:38Shawn Ryan?

  I have a question. When I interviewed Brandon Fugel, he said that Bigelow would not share any research or information that was discovered at the ranch. Why would he not do that?

• 5:04:54Speaker 05

  That's Bob.

• 5:04:55Shawn Ryan?

  That's just him?

• 5:04:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 5:04:59Speaker 05

  One of the things that I have talked to and feel disappointed with. One of the things we did initially is create a pretty significant library and there were a number of folks that came forward and were able to buy or collect information. People had private collections. By the way, a guy you haven't heard of that's significant here is Dave Marler. He's at, he lives in Albuquerque and has set up a major foundation and is collecting and has had, I think, got relationships with the University of New Mexico to protect this equipment.

• 5:05:44Speaker 05

  And one of the things they're doing is overtly looking for folks who have private collections and bringing it together. Jeff Kreipel has done that at Rice as well. But Bob was just one of the old stuff. He can be very, very private in many areas.

• 5:06:07Shawn Ryan?

  What's the connection between the continuation of consciousness and UFOs?

• 5:06:15Speaker 05

  UFOs have got to be a piece of consciousness puzzle. As I said, you've had, now, as you know, particularly from Jacques, these go back millennia reports of some incidents, but you know, where you have all of these significant interactions with UFOs, that's relatively near new wrinkle to interaction with other forms of non-sentient life or non-human sentient life.

• 5:06:53Shawn Ryan?

  How do you, what kind of experiments do you do or research do you do when it comes to the continuation of consciousness? How do you study that?

• 5:07:14Speaker 05

  I'm not ready to discuss that right now because I think it's coming.

• 5:07:18Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 5:07:19Speaker 05

  I will tell you that's to be announced.

• 5:07:22Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 5:07:23Speaker 05

  Actually have a Zoom session on that on Sunday.

• 5:07:26Shawn Ryan?

  All right.

• 5:07:28Shawn Ryan?

  Roger that.

• 5:07:29Speaker 05

  But, uh, Huge, it, um, and one of the problems that you have is if we're right on consciousness arriving and the complexity and remember the PSP precognitive sentient phenomenon, how do you get ahead of that? It knows what you're going to do before you do it.

• 5:07:50Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 5:07:51Speaker 05

  And determines what results you're going to get.

• 5:08:00Shawn Ryan?

  How long did you guys study that?

• 5:08:06Speaker 05

  Noon tomorrow, I don't know.

• 5:08:08Shawn Ryan?

  No, I mean with, with, with under nids.

• 5:08:13Speaker 05

  Uh, Tucson, this is literally evolving as we.

• 5:08:18Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 5:08:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, this is, you know, where I think it's headed and, uh, there's too many loose pieces right now and don't want to, uh, risk upsetting any of those.

• 5:08:33Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. When it comes to some of these crash retrievals, you know, there's a big disclosure thing happened and the first hearing in Congress was last year. I think they've had another one since then. What do you, what do you think of all this stuff? You know, there's so many different camps in this.

• 5:08:48Speaker 05

  Well, I'm, I'm in a firm maybe. Uh, I had come down against Roswell.

• 5:08:58Speaker 05

  Uh, having said that, until Grush came forward and you'll, well, the weapon I sang, that's one of the things they were talking about with me there, has it changed? Cause I was a kind of a firm no. Now, Roswell happened, no doubt about that. My position was, I'm pretty sure it was ours. And, uh,

• 5:09:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, had the details to kind of support that. Um, and from multiple sources. Um, conversely, after Grush came forward, and again, I know those key players as well, Louisa Friend, Chris Mellon, and you know Jim Simmivan?

• 5:09:47Shawn Ryan?

  Uh-uh.

• 5:09:48Speaker 05

  That's a name you'd want to know. Um, well, he's public now, I wouldn't have said anything, but he was the executive officer, director of CIA, and an abductee. Where he'd had personally, that's, it was one of, like I say, when you think it gets convoluted, I'm at a conference, or actually a training session, at, um, what's the name? But anyway, they go around the room, you know, who are you, blah, blah, blah, and I mentioned my name, he answered, it's his, and went on break, and he says, are you John Alexander? And I was, yeah, what? Says, oh, he says, well, I heard about you, and then mentions he's ex, very senior CIA.

• 5:10:33Speaker 05

  And we go to lunch, and he tells us about the experience where he's living in Northern Virginia, and he wakes up, and he's, he and his wife are outside, and have no idea how they got there. And there had been little beings in the room with them, and how do we get outside? And then there's physical stuff that happened and all that. And he's one that's come and said, believe Grush. Now, not what he told me before.

• 5:11:12Speaker 05

  Talked to Chris Mellon about it, and he's, and the problem is, the data never all fit. Um, I told you some of the pieces before, guys like, if Grush is right, my take is, this is absolutely illegal, what has been going on. I think I know now how it was potentially funded, and it's not what conventional wisdom has.

• 5:11:49Speaker 05

  One of the things we didn't mention, and you hear all the time, Ben's particularly the Skunk Works, if you've got a Skunk Works patch over there. I knew Ben Rich, and we talked about this. We had meetings on this. Ben, when I was with him, had a shopping list. And I'll give you the name, because when I was at the Seoul conference, I was standing in line, and this guy talks to me, and I said, "Where are you from?" He said, "Oh, he's from the Skunk Works. He just retired from the Skunk Works." I'm like, "That's interesting." So, it turns out they have a list, and I asked. Unfortunately, the guy has transitioned.

• 5:12:30Speaker 05

  But Sheffield was the guy that Ben gave me, and said, "Ben had a shopping list, you know? I want the propulsion system, I want the cloaking system, I want da-da-da." And looked out, and this runs very counter to a lot of the popular literature, I believe, we had more than one discussion on this. Could he have lied to me? Eh, possible. I think I mentioned before, we knew Edward Teller had gone, when we were doing ATP, Advanced

• 5:13:10Speaker 05

  Theoretical Physics. One of our suppositions was, if five people are in the loop, and Roswell, Teller's one of them. And the reason is that, remember, he's going to, he is the guy who is involved with the most energy that is known to mankind at that time, nuclear fusion, right? Had him over for dinner, and actually brought these topics up, and he didn't dismiss it. He just said, "Well, I think they're looking the wrong way into the thing." And he's one who talked about Trinity, and how, you know, people knew and

• 5:13:53Speaker 05

  most people didn't, and all of that. But no indication of that. By the way, he liked the Cash-Landrum case that I told you about.

• 5:14:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:14:06Speaker 05

  And that's because of the radiation, and we understand that sort of case. Yeah, so.

• 5:14:17Speaker 05

  Like I say, the pieces just never all fit. I am like probably you and most of America now waiting to say, "Okay." Now, one of my problems is that, as I said, well, I actually didn't mention this. When I was doing these briefings on ATP, in addition, I had mentioned Star Wars. I had met with the director or deputy director of all those three-letter agencies. Now, if you have a crash regival program, you've got to have a hell of a lot of people.

• 5:14:57Speaker 05

  You mean, you think about, see, my approach to all of this has been, "Okay, it's real. How would I organize to do that?" And the numbers get you. Meaning, how many people do you have to have that are ready to go on a moment's notice? You go to any contingency plan where you have a global contingency plan. Because that's what it would have to be, right? All over the globe, anyplace. Now, maybe you're talking about international relations and all. But then you're talking adding liaison officers, anybody who might go out and collect, et cetera, et cetera. The numbers make no sense.

• 5:15:40Speaker 05

  And I will tell you, the director of one of those three-letter agencies, we're having the briefing. I was there, somebody else was with me. It may have been just Burt. Because this is one where generals, talking to generals, are allowed to do it. And so he goes, "A, we don't do that. There's no requirement." If you understand how the intelligence community is driven by requirements. They collect against specific targets and that. "B, tell you about the ones I saw." So the point is, here is a guy who's now the head of one of those three-letter agencies,

• 5:16:21Speaker 05

  who has personally seen what he describes as UFOs, and says, "No, agency not involved." Now, the question comes up, were all these people lying to me?

• 5:16:37Speaker 05

  I frankly doubt it. There's just too many.

• 5:16:39Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 5:16:40Speaker 05

  But I can't, the, the flip side is, you know, believe and that this tiny, tiny subset does have it. So I'm, like I say, I'm waiting for the shoe to drop.

• 5:16:57Shawn Ryan?

  You and everybody else. But, um, you know, it.

• 5:17:07Shawn Ryan?

  Do ETs have the technology? Do we have the technology? How do we know it's ours? How do we know it's not? What?

• 5:17:20Speaker 05

  The technology.

• 5:17:26Speaker 05

  Uh, one thing almost everybody, even those, the believers say

• 5:17:38Speaker 05

  haven't been able to crack it in, in reality. And my example is if an F-35 crashed in the Amazon and the Corina Crory picked it up, you'd probably have better spears. You know, but you wouldn't understand flying and stealth and all of that. And that seems to be, I mean, almost in, in the rumors that come back and just say, don't. Now, there are those who say, no, no, we've been flying it for a long time. And I think that's bullshit. And the reason is if you had the technology and could fly it, the issue is not little widgets flying.

• 5:18:23Speaker 05

  It's about understanding technology that's fundamentally different. You can make the Middle East irrelevant. And, um, in fact, in one of my books I wrote to that, and I write little vignettes about what would happen. And it was that zero point energy sources discovered. And it changes the geopolitics of the world, which it would. And so that you would take this and go. Make a little widget to fly inconsequential compared to understand. Now, we also looked at what would it take if you did understand such an energy?

• 5:19:06Speaker 05

  And our best guess is, you know, at least two, probably three decades before you could inculcate that. And you can see examples of that right now with electric cars. Because you're talking about, you know, the big question of, okay, we're recharging mechanisms and all that. To put in that infrastructure takes decades. So you would get started well ahead of time. So I think the idea that we've had it, and the question, and that the other flip side is usually, well, the oil barons and all that would would just bury it because they want to keep theirs going?

• 5:19:49Speaker 05

  I say, no, they would own it. They would just go out and buy it. They will, we have the concentration of wealth as we do in the U.S. right now. Now, the people with money would just, you know, invest in that and buy it. There's no need to be afraid.

• 5:20:09Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, that is a good point. Let's talk about some of these abductions. I'm sure you've looked into some of the abductions.

• 5:20:20Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 5:20:24Shawn Ryan?

  What are some of the abductions that that really stand out to you that you find to be credible?

• 5:20:29Speaker 05

  Well, again, I had mentioned before John Mack, and he was the premier guy, the abduction phenomena. And John was much more circumspect than most people realize. Again, little gray eyes from Zeta Reticula, picking people up and that. The converse is the one that I mentioned before. Here's the guy who, well, it's interesting. He becomes the executive officer of the CIA. He's literally in charge of counterterrorism for the U.S. for a while, who has to sleep with the light on.

• 5:21:15Speaker 05

  And like I say, I put Jim Don and I know his wife too, highly, highly credible people. And, you know, of course, they can't answer what happened, other than they're sleeping in the room and they end up outside and there's no doors to get there and things of that nature.

• 5:21:42Speaker 05

  Again, I think we're back to complexity and, you know, well, Whitley Straber was a good friend. We've talked about, you know, Whitley, you know, his cases, something that happened in New York. He's the one who had come up with a whole anal probe kinds of things. I, I don't think that the issue is in hybrid children and fighting is, well, if you're fighting ET, that's total bullshit. Um, because if ET understands physics and can get across the universe and get here, they also understand biology.

• 5:22:27Speaker 05

  And I don't need humans to make new humans and I don't even need life humans. If I can collect, we've seen this now with the DNA, you know, alive. What I've said is ET says no to free range humans. You know, what they would do is if it were adversarial, uh, is just wipe out the people and, you know, create their own. Uh, you know, it'd be a biological attack. I forgot to mention to you that you don't realize, and I just learned this this morning on the internet, that you're talking to a zombie who is controlled by evil ETs.

• 5:23:08Speaker 05

  That's literally on the internet today. I'm a zombie and uh so um yeah, this stuff gets pretty wild and

• 5:23:20Speaker 05

  damn issue of complexity, do these events happen? Oh, absolutely, happened. But having said that, again, you get back to the interaction of the humans and sentient non-humans. We've been having abductions. Remember Rip Van Winkle? And there's one that's in the Quran and this notion of going to sleep or bilocation. And that has been around forever and not necessarily some ET snatched them up and moved them there. Why does it come? Are there?

• 5:24:00Speaker 05

  Um, they call it cloaked memories and you know, changing it to make people think that it's something else. See, one of the things I mentioned earlier on the Cash Landrum case, helicopters flying around absolutely weren't there and have looked at that and said, but can I make you think of their? Can we do thought projection so that, you know, that these things are being projected? So the recipients are this, they're reporting what they actually see, but that's because something that's being implanted directly into the brain.

• 5:24:40Speaker 05

  Scary thing, if you watched in the news in the last couple of weeks, them talking about Chinese working on thought control.

• 5:24:50Shawn Ryan?

  I have, I actually, I have read about that. What do you think about that? Do you think that's a possibility?

• 5:24:58Speaker 05

  Have to describe it.

• 5:25:01Shawn Ryan?

  Thought projection.

• 5:25:04Speaker 05

  Oh, parts of it are absolutely real. Yeah, no, no, we can.

• 5:25:14Speaker 05

  This is an area that I don't know if it's still classified or not, but um

• 5:25:22Speaker 05

  there are ways to project certain that are very prosaic. Complex, but prosaic.

• 5:25:34Speaker 05

  How much you can do, I don't know, but we're talking if Cash Landrum is A, the

• 5:25:44Speaker 05

  you know, UFO is there, a physical, we know from a physical fact, something was physically there. But can implant thoughts that are terribly complex, i.e. it's not just a hmm, but it's, you know, certain types of helicopters are flying around this thing. We know for sure they were not. Uh, that talks to a degree of technology that's well beyond certainly anything I've ever heard of or even been

• 5:26:15Speaker 05

  sort of being close to. Uh, by the way, related, I was giving a briefing on non-lethal weapons to the Director of Science or Director of Research at CIA Headquarters. And never met, the whole thing of thought control has been, you know, in the uh, CT arena. And, um, you know, he went off into that and it was, uh, you know, I don't know if people know what happened on the Church Committee, but that's the whole LSD thing and that.

• 5:26:56Speaker 05

  And said, no way in hell are we touching something like that. And people would, I think you play your better agency. And when you do that, if you get caught. Playing with those kinds of technologies. Now, having said that, of course, they, this recent stuff has been associated with China. And certainly don't have the same moral limitations that we might on that. But the implications of where that goes is just really, really horrendous.

• 5:27:29Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, how, I don't, I mean, obviously, they would have to tap into some type of a consciousness.

• 5:27:35Speaker 05

  Have to what?

• 5:27:36Shawn Ryan?

  Obviously, they would have to tap into some type of consciousness. I mean, we're talking about.

• 5:27:42Speaker 05

  Well, depending on how you're defining consciousness now, see, you're back to, I think the significant difference between the brain and the mind.

• 5:27:51Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 5:27:51Speaker 05

  So what we're really talking about here is being able to manipulate the mind. And what we know from like FMRI, for instance, yeah, you can do that. That works both ways. You can also read the mind based on certain physical responses. Um, yeah, I've argued in some.

• 5:28:17Shawn Ryan?

  I guess what I'm saying is if you're able to. How do I explain this? If you're able to, let's talk about the cell sample. You, your cells were hooked up to the polygraph machine. And they were able to pick up on your emotional, our rhythm.

• 5:28:41Speaker 05

  Right.

• 5:28:43Shawn Ryan?

  Is that, would there be a way to reverse that to where the cells can manipulate the mind?

• 5:28:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're very close to something that Bert and I were discussing. If you remember when Reagan was shot.

• 5:29:00Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 5:29:01Speaker 05

  And one of the things that came up, everybody attributed to ghouls. But trying to collect bandages and all of that.

• 5:29:12Speaker 05

  And we're in the highly speculative area here now, but it was, can I take this sample and route it back to where you can influence the actual organism? I mean, you're talking to the Manchurian candidate at a whole different degree here, but I can start, I, we literally had discussions about, you know, who's controlling all of these physical samples that are coming from the president? And could you do this? Again, besides, this gets used highly speculative, but thought about certainly.

• 5:29:57Shawn Ryan?

  Last thing. Interspecies communications.

• 5:30:05Speaker 05

  Yeah?

• 5:30:08Shawn Ryan?

  Let's talk about it.

• 5:30:09Speaker 05

  Okay. Which species?

• 5:30:12Shawn Ryan?

  The dolphins.

• 5:30:13Speaker 05

  Oh, dolphin research, yeah. Uh, well, we did that, it's been a whale, the dolphin research was actually doing interaction, the stuff with the whales. Uh, again, we're interacting at a lot closer than we are with humpback whales and whatnot. And so that, they knew exactly where we were.

• 5:30:39Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 5:30:39Speaker 05

  I mean, and the ability to do that, it wasn't exactly communication, but they were, they, we were in a, you know, rigid rubber thirty, uh, ten meter boat. I mean, kind of put that in a heartbeat and, and yet we're having interactions inches from that. But now there's several applications there. And this is going to go off into the bloodsuff story as well. Um.

• 5:31:13Speaker 05

  We had done, a guy I had mentioned was Ted Rockwell. He's the one who had been with Rick over as technical director, very interested in these areas and he had funded this. And what we did was we were dating with two aspects. One was dolphins in the open ocean. We did a week. This was off of the Bahamas. Went in the north end, signed in and up north of there. And spent a week out there and we had, the protocols that we set up was for very practical

• 5:31:58Speaker 05

  reasons, there would be no physical contact unless they initiated. And the absolutely is they're suspect to human infections and things of that nature. But again, these are pods in the open ocean and they vary in size and what happens normally is in the morning they will break up and go hunting and come back together late in the day and they can run from twos and that to hundreds. We've seen some of that. So we were working. Actually, ex-wife was the one who was psychic on this and would have interaction.

• 5:32:41Speaker 05

  If they came, we would get in the water. By the way, being, if you've dived with them, but that's just amazing. I mean, you've got these things, hundreds of pounds and they're, you know, inches away from you because they would come to us while you're in the water.

• 5:32:58Shawn Ryan?

  Are these wild?

• 5:32:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 5:33:00Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 5:33:01Speaker 05

  Yeah. We're talking open ocean and.

• 5:33:09Speaker 05

  Anyway, so we started into some of the psychic things and would say, "I think they're coming, they're a long ways off." And there's one in particular where we were trying to communicate and have them do certain things. And you'd see them come rolling in and then we were,

• 5:33:31Speaker 05

  about, anyway, we're, uh, dream two. And, uh, had a small raft that we're towing behind it. And to bring them in and you'd see them, we saw them coming across. And had them, again, the telepathic instruction was to make a major shift. And to go back out and circle around and come back in. And had them respond to it.

• 5:34:01Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 5:34:02Speaker 05

  Uh, now, a lot of the time, we would get in the water, we'd keep the fins and goggles there so you, you had to get in the water fast, uh, to, you know, get their attention and say, and they would say and play with you. Uh, if we, uh, when we did that. But this is one trying to give telepathic communications and have them do it. Now,

• 5:34:26Speaker 05

  there's another set of experiments, but these were in captivity. And they did this, I forget

• 5:34:35Speaker 05

  where they were, but, um, they were in tanks and they put up signs roughly north, south, east and west. And, uh, there's another guy who deserves credit here, Scott Jones. Does that name popped up at all?

• 5:34:50Shawn Ryan?

  No, it has not.

• 5:34:51Speaker 05

  Antiquity, uh, one who's key in, in many of these areas and had become, uh, he's an ex-Navy pilot. Uh, a lot of strange stuff from Korea. And experiences and then got involved in these areas and became, uh, Assistant Clayburn Pell, who's a senator who became quite interested. Anyway, Scott set this up. And, um, so what they did is he made a, a number of, uh, charts with a sets of instructions.

• 5:35:31Speaker 05

  And then they put them in the envelope, numbered the envelope, but did not know what instruction is in what envelope.

• 5:35:41Speaker 05

  And so there would be things like, go to north, circle counterclockwise twice, go to east, etc. And they did that. And had five out of five, they had six envelope, five out of five, does that, and then they would read the instructions, send the message, he would do it. Sixth one,

• 5:36:11Speaker 05

  picks up, no, she does not know what's in the envelope, right? Dolphin starts a routine and opens it up. And they had done the routine before they'd even, you know, seen it. Wow.

• 5:36:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 5:36:34Speaker 05

  I knew John Lilly, and you may know Lilly on dolphins, because he had done a lot of the basic research on that. He also warns you that you got to be careful a bit, because they can get aggressive, particularly with women.

• 5:36:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, there's a sexual component to it. But,

• 5:36:58Speaker 05

  yeah, where I mentioned earlier, this is Chris Ledso's case. And we can talk about the whole thing, but he's one who's having interactions with orbs on a continuous basis. Starts with an amazing case. But I wrote a foreword to his book, UFO God.

• 5:37:24Speaker 05

  It appears as if this is some form of communication that we don't understand. But he has a telepathic communication with them. Now, one of the things that they did, and I understand they've now just recently replicated, but hasn't aired, there was the program called Beyond Skinwalker Ranch has set on Chris. And I'm in that. But near the end, what they do, I mean, this really blew them away. David Broadwell, who was orchestrating this, got a hold of a guy and they have a EEG helmet.

• 5:38:07Speaker 05

  And so they've got Chris outside. And when they show in the film, what's really effective is Chris is there, he's pointing to orbs that are moving around. They're photographing the orbs so that they see that. So they got him in the poem. And the third one is actually the reading from his EEG. And what you see is a profound shift to something that looks like a Zen meditator with 30 years' experience or something like that. But the brainwaves just shift tremendously when he's, again, doing this communication with the orbs.

• 5:38:49Speaker 05

  I said, "The problem at the moment is we have yet to figure out the Rosetta Stone where we can understand what this means." And getting back to Brandon, you know, he also says that in Skinwalker Ranch, he thinks that the issue is attempted communication. We just don't understand it.

• 5:39:11Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of communication is Blood so having with these orbs?

• 5:39:16Speaker 05

  Oh, he calls them and sees them almost daily.

• 5:39:19Shawn Ryan?

  He calls them and they come in?

• 5:39:21Speaker 05

  Yeah. I get emails. I haven't had an email for a week or two, but normally, almost every week, you know, if the weather's good, he goes out and, uh, yeah, they respond and...

• 5:39:37Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think he would be interested in an interview?

• 5:39:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, he would. No problem with that one.

• 5:39:42Shawn Ryan?

  Chris Bloodso.

• 5:39:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 5:39:45Shawn Ryan?

  Proud of that.

• 5:39:46Speaker 05

  Talk about that, but the case is, it's another one. The complexity of that case is absolutely amazing. And that it's turned into a positive thing. In fact, I just sent him, I think it was Tuesday, uh, was the, uh, 16th or 17th year since his first major event happened. And I sent him a note that said, "Happy anniversary." Because it was, you know,

• 5:40:16Speaker 05

  he has a fabulous family and all been involved, but they took a lot of heat.

• 5:40:21Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:40:22Speaker 05

  Uh, move on. Uh, you know, why they existed. Uh, they got a video up on it. It's just terrible what they did with him on the initial reporting. And of course, the local community. And to make it matters worse, his family comes very fundamentalist Christian and does not want to hear that. And, um, yeah, but, uh, we can talk about the case itself is interesting because it's one where I had, this is one I had a personal experience with it. Uh, but I'm absolutely convinced the reality, mostly because of what happened to me.

• 5:41:07Speaker 05

  And most of these things I've talked about are things I've observed or been around, but this was one that, it's me.

• 5:41:14Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:41:18Shawn Ryan?

  Man, this is a lot to think about. This is a lot to think about. I do, one other thing came to mind that I would like to ask you about, and that is the underground ET bases.

• 5:41:37Shawn Ryan?

  Lots of people talk about it. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to believe.

• 5:41:44Speaker 05

  Well, tell me more about what the question is.

• 5:41:47Shawn Ryan?

  Well, you know, what really popped on my radar is, you know, I've always heard about them. They that these Tic Tacs UFOs come out of the ocean. They come out of the ground. You know, and some people think that they've been here all along. Then, when I was researching Joe McGonigal, I found kind of a mini documentary that talks about these remote viewers that remote viewed underground bases, one being in Mount Hayes, Alaska.

• 5:42:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's a single.

• 5:42:25Shawn Ryan?

  What do you know about this stuff?

• 5:42:28Speaker 05

  Mostly what you do and the probability of it being significant and the physical reality, I think, is pretty slim.

• 5:42:44Speaker 05

  But you're back to what do you mean by UFO? And you see, where do they come from? If it's an interdimensional thing, you know, then you don't have a problem of that. And you also don't have a problem of physical space of where are they? Now, having said that, as if it sounds highly negative, conversely, again, if you're talking this over to the near death arena and the mediums and they talk about, oh, the spirit world is very, very close to us

• 5:43:24Speaker 05

  and aware of what we're doing and interacting and it's, you know, physically right here, immediately adjacent.

• 5:43:38Speaker 05

  It gets you away from a lot of the problems of, like I say, time and distance and things of that nature, but it's, you know, worth considering certainly. It, um, so, but that gets you away from necessarily that there's a fixed base that's there, that's in three dimensional reality as we know it. Uh, is this in something that has other dimensions and so it's not physically taking up space and you've got to get there. Because we know where Mount Hayes is and, you know, having said that, have heard for

• 5:44:23Speaker 05

  a long time, you know, about UFOs flying into and out of mountains and, and mesas. It's much rarer than typical UFO story, but certainly there. You must remember something I haven't hit. One of my first questions always is, what do you mean by UFO? And the problem is I've got little balls of light, got hard craft miles across, literally, and thousands and thousands of variations in between. Uh huh. Which in my view argues strongly against, oh, by the way, the ET hypothesis, you

• 5:45:08Speaker 05

  know, putting together. If on the other hand, you say this is a metal construct and you're seeing different things, again, you're back to consciousness, that certainly makes more sense. Uh huh. I also, second slide, or I think usually the second slide that I always use is when I talk on any of these topics and it's got, I don't know all of them, but it's got near-death experience, after-death, psychokinesis, interspecies communication, UFOs and this and all that.

• 5:45:47Speaker 05

  I said even cryptozoology and say, yeah, these are all related and consciousness is the key component.

• 5:45:59Speaker 05

  Problem is, we tend to isolate and study little stovepipes. And I have a thing that says, look, I give lectures to UFO community and near-death experiences, shamans around the world, and remote viewers. And it is changing, but for the most part, it's, those are as if isolated. And, you know, one of the first things you run into is, what are your parameters? In near-death, you know, what do you mean by being close to death? Because most of the cases where you have, you have no idea. And one of the things we ought to talk about separately, of the few cases where the individual is entirely instrumented.

• 5:46:44Speaker 05

  So you know that they're bound to, but even the case that I mentioned, Mary, I mean, all we have are the stories after the fact, and you have to infer that death had occurred. You have to infer that she had some ways of getting communication and information about what would happen years later.

• 5:47:06Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 5:47:07Speaker 05

  We do know that piece of it happened, but you're, a lot of inference as to how all of that occurred.

• 5:47:18Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I hope you have a good Zoom call. So, but, well, John, um, I'm not gonna lie, my brain is tapped out after talking to you for six hours. And, uh, I've got a lot to think about, but, you know, I would like to say, thank you very much for coming on the show and, and sharing everything from your Vietnam experience, your childhood, and as much as we've covered up until this point, and, uh, I just want to say it was an honor to have you and, and thank you for making the trip.

• 5:48:02Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 5:48:16Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.