Stuck in the Middle

He prides himself on being an empathic confidante to his friends…but is it to a fault? In this classic episode of Esther Calling, we meet a man fed up with being the container for his friends’ relationship woes. But, he wonders, can put up barriers without losing the intimacy of those friendships? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. For the month of July, Esther is offering 20% off to join her Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. It's a place to continue conversations on important topics like sexlessness, infidelity, or the perils of modern dating. It's also a place to follow up with couples and find out where their stories went. You'll also get an ad-free version of all the episodes. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Hi Esther, I just have a question for you today about setting boundaries in friendships, and if setting those boundaries might mean the end of a friendship.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  So, two friends of mine are in a relationship and have been for a long time, as long as I've known them. And they have what I would call a dysfunctional relationship, and that one, it's good, it's great. They go through these really difficult lows. And because I am friends with both of them, I end up getting both sides of the story quite often. And it can be incredibly draining. And I want to set in place boundaries that say, listen, I'm not your therapist, I'm not your relationship counselor, I don't want to talk about those things. But I also don't want to lose the intimacy of our friendship.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  It feels like it's an either-or kind of a situation, I think. So, that is that. Thank you for your help.

• 1:25Speaker 02

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• 2:55Esther Perel?

  So you have two dear friends who are in a relationship together.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:01Esther Perel?

  That relationship goes through all kinds of crises. They both come to you, they confide in you, they both want you to see their side or to ally with them. You find yourself triangulated and in a bind and with a conflict around loyalty. And you would like either to be able to tell them, I cannot be thrown in the middle like this because I cherish you both and I will not be the arbiter of your food. Or you would like to find a way to hear what they each have to say but not let it get to you in the way that it does.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  A little bit from column A and a little bit from column B.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would be it. Because it is the thing of I do have very strong relationships with both of them. And I do want to be a comfort to them and I want to be, you know, if they're experiencing difficulty, that they can both come to me. But I think it is the case of it, I'm a very empathetic person, so I do come away from it feeling it very strongly, I think, yeah.

• 4:11Esther Perel?

  What enters you and how does it enter you?

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Frustration and not knowing what to do. Um, and it's kind of because. And sometimes I almost want to like throttle them and scream at them because I'm getting it from both sides. So I kind of know what each one of them wants. But then if I'm to really impart what the other one has said to me, then I'm just becoming this like go between. That I'm like, why don't you have this conversation amongst yourselves and not with me? Um.

• 4:44Esther Perel?

  Is this the first for you? First time you find yourself in such a triangle?

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Not really, um.

• 4:50Esther Perel?

  Tell me.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  So I have kind of always in most of my friend groups, uh, kind of growing up and recently as well, I tend to be kind of like. The confidant role.

• 5:01Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Um, so if someone is experiencing quite a difficult time, very often, if it is with someone else that I know as well. They do feel like that they can come to me because they feel that one they'll be listened to and that two, it won't be divulged to the other. Party or to the other side.

• 5:19Esther Perel?

  Tell me, did you grow up with triangles? Are you familiar with this intense geometry of relationships?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Um, not hugely. Um, my parents are both still married. And they have been for, I think it's their thirty fifth wedding anniversary this year.

• 5:38Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Um, so it wouldn't have been a huge amount of, let's say discord there in that way. But I kind of always would have been maybe. A bit of a go between for them in some ways as well, and that there were certain things I could talk with with my mother. That I wouldn't necessarily talk with my father and kind of vice versa. So there would have been those kind of like personal relationships.

• 6:02Esther Perel?

  Meaning that they each come to you to talk with you about certain things that they cannot talk with each other.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 6:12Esther Perel?

  That's not what you said, you know?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:17Esther Perel?

  Do you know what you said?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  No, not really, I suppose.

• 6:20Esther Perel?

  It's the things that I cannot talk with them about, and so I talk with each one separately. But in fact, what I understood you meant is that they each have their share of things that they can't tell each other. And so you have been recruited a long time ago to be the sounding board, the ear, the empathic one, the nonjudgmental one, the confidential one, the confidant, so to speak, the one that you can trust. And you have been the alleviator of the tensions and the places that they can't go with each other.

• 6:59Esther Perel?

  So you have longstanding resume of being a negotiator, a mediator, a facilitator, a peacemaker, a go-between, a conflict resolution person. Your friends must be really lucky.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  I'll have to update my resume for the next job application, I do.

• 7:23Esther Perel?

  Yes, I always, I would, you know, I always think we have an unofficial resume, and I would definitely include that on your unofficial resume. This is a tremendous skill that you can bring to all environments. But what you're telling me is that in this instance, it pains you. And maybe because you're not able to solve it or to make it better, and so it stays with you. And you see their pain and their hurt and their anger, and you wish that they could just do something. But neither of them is doing anything because they each want the other person to do something.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, very much.

• 8:02Esther Perel?

  And have you said any of that to them? Do they know how challenging this is for you?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  They do partially. So what tends to be the pattern is that like a plan is made to do something. And on the day that the plan comes up, they have had a fight or tensions are high. So they cancel or they back out and it kind of affects things. So I was talking to one of them on the day that this happened the last time. And I kind of said, just so you know, I'm at a point with, I want to make plans with you both less together because of this. And I kind of can't be part of it anymore in that way. And I got these kind of messages from both. They were almost like tiptoeing to like come back and be like, hi, how are you?

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Um. In that way, if they were acknowledging they had done wrong, but not necessarily addressing it, I suppose.

• 8:57Esther Perel?

  And you have a confidant of your own?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  I do. I have a a long term partner of seven years.

• 9:02Esther Perel?

  Okay, and you confide about that to your partner?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 9:08Esther Perel?

  And is your partner involved in the rupture of relational discord as well?

• 9:13Speaker 01

  No, he's firmly outside of it. Um. It's because he has seen the effect that it can have on me. Um.

• 9:22Esther Perel?

  So he's good boundary.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, very good boundaries.

• 9:25Esther Perel?

  And he provides a boundary for you? He's able sometimes to kind of hold you back from plunging in?

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, he is.

• 9:32Esther Perel?

  Okay, and you let him know how useful and helpful that is to you?

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Yes, I do. Yeah.

• 9:38Esther Perel?

  Okay, so what is the urge that makes it hard for you to not take it on? Because it penetrates your skin. So there's something that draws you in in the way that these two people are having it out with each other.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 9:57Esther Perel?

  And that is about you. That is not about them. What's your mission? What drives you that may or may not be conscious for that matter?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  I think what drives me in this context with them is that when the times are good, they're so good. Um. Because they like they're passionate people, I guess. So.

• 10:19Esther Perel?

  You're talking about them.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Um.

• 10:21Esther Perel?

  And I'm asking you a question. I get it. They're heaven and hell. They go up and down. They go from, you know, from bliss to to distress, but you are affected by that.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 10:35Esther Perel?

  You respond to it as if it's happening to you. That's the issue of the boundary is that what's happening to them happens to you. You can't even resist going in. You're in. It's visceral.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  I think um I want to be kept.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  And I find, I think why I have occupied this confidant role so often in my past has been because it makes me integral to someone.

• 11:12Esther Perel?

  Yep.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  So they turn to me and then I feel important and I feel useful.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  And

• 11:19Esther Perel?

  And I feel needed. And if you need me and I'm useful and I'm important, then you don't leave me.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 11:28Esther Perel?

  Because underneath the need to be helpful and to be involved, there is a bigger need that is to make sure that I don't get abandoned.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that is it.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  And that's kind of difficult to.

• 11:50Esther Perel?

  Just take it in for a sec.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  It's it's a difficult feeling because I don't know where that element of not wanting to be abandoned comes from.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Because I feel like I haven't been significantly abandoned in my life, let's say.

• 12:16Esther Perel?

  No, you can't. You made yourself too indispensable.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  It was a good survival mechanism.

• 12:30Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 12:49Esther Perel?

  If you are new here or haven't been here in a bit, welcome to my office. For the whole month of July, I am offering you 20% off for the annual and monthly subscriptions on Apple Podcasts. By joining my Office Hours subscription on Apple Podcasts, you'll get an ad-free version of these episodes. Plus, you will have access to my Apple channel. That includes the earliest seasons of the podcast, plus a clinical library of conversations with colleagues, coaches, and other therapists as well. We offer follow-ups with couples as well if knowing more about their stories is something that interests you and that you're curious about.

• 13:32Esther Perel?

  Join my Office Hours by clicking the Subscribe button on the Where Should We Begin? show page. See you there, and thank you.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So, since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 14:29Speaker 05

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• 15:00Speaker 06

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• 15:28Esther Perel?

  So I can imagine, and you tell me if any of this resonates, because it's really, I'm fishing with a broad net, we just met. But sometimes, the little boy, who becomes the confidant to his beloved parents, is privy to their discord, is privy to their tensions, and worries that that may have consequences for their relationship. And so he becomes a marvelous diplomat.

• 16:09Esther Perel?

  And he makes himself indispensable.

• 16:14Esther Perel?

  And he thinks as long as they come to me, nothing bad will happen to me,

• 16:22Esther Perel?

  not just to them, to you. And that becomes such second nature

• 16:30Esther Perel?

  that, no, you don't even feel the fear of abandonment, because it's covered up with your instrumentality, with your empathy, with your facilitation skills.

• 16:47Esther Perel?

  But you went straight there and I think you're right on the mark.

• 16:52Esther Perel?

  I will be important, I will be needed. But why does it matter for me to be so needed? Because if I'm needed, you won't leave me. Or you won't leave each other, for that matter, which has consequences for me.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  And I think

• 17:15Speaker 01

  in in this little microcosm, what's been happening with the friends. They have become such close friends, especially living nearby over the pandemic and everything.

• 17:27Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  And especially as I've gotten older and, you know, your networks, you're not around surrounded by people all the time. That because they're both such strong friends, I don't want to lose them. And I know they love each other and I know they're well suited in that way, but if they were to dissolve for whatever reason, part of me would think I didn't do enough to help them.

• 17:57Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  And I would then feel responsible for losing this really great friendship that I've managed to find in my late twenties, which I'm talking like I'm uh towards my deathbed, but um it does feel significant. They feel like significant people in my life that will be there for a long time.

• 18:22Esther Perel?

  That is beautiful and they should be significant. That doesn't mean that you have to take on responsibilities that don't belong to you.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 18:32Esther Perel?

  You're important, but not that important.

• 18:38Esther Perel?

  If it doesn't work out for them, it's because of whatever is happening between them. And you can continue your friendship with them, even though it demands navigating. It's a complicated dance, but we've done that forever.

• 18:55Esther Perel?

  So you be a good friend. But being their best friend and wanting them in your life and realizing your circle has shrunk and you really don't want to lose them. Doesn't mean that you become responsible for their relationship, which in your mind means for them being a couple. It's a bit grandiose. It's a responsibility that doesn't belong to you.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:23Esther Perel?

  Can you imagine a close connection that does not mean taking responsibility for a relationship that should actually take responsibility for itself?

• 19:39Speaker 01

  I can. I I'm just not sure what that would look like.

• 19:44Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:47Esther Perel?

  When I listen to you both, when I see you in your fights, it pains me. Sometimes I wish I could do something, but I feel helpless. And I think you need help. You are stuck in a cycle of blame and defense and explosions and bliss and hell. And I'm okay listening. I don't, I I welcome you coming to me. But my role is going to be to listen and not to take it on.

• 20:29Esther Perel?

  And in a way, take on that which you don't.

• 20:33Esther Perel?

  Because your relationship is like a distribution center where everybody gets the package the other one doesn't want to carry.

• 20:43Esther Perel?

  So I'm going to close my facilities. I'm a friend, I'm not a drop off center.

• 20:52Esther Perel?

  But this you say to yourself, of course, more than you say to them.

• 20:57Esther Perel?

  And I think that this also would be a great chat with your partner.

• 21:03Esther Perel?

  Because it seems that this is the first time that you have a glimpse into why you get so ensnared. And you've learned something about you.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I don't think I kind of had made that connection to my parents before in that same way. I was kind of aware of the the confidant role, but I didn't know where it had come from. So kind of seeing it in that way of

• 21:35Speaker 01

  it was forged in the flames of family life is something to definitely think more about, I think, for sure.

• 21:43Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:48Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 22:02Speaker 05

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• 22:33Speaker 06

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• 23:01Speaker 07

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• 23:31Esther Perel?

  Do you feel it in your body when they talk to you and you start to feel like stuck?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  I do, yeah. It's like, it's like a hot current up through like my chest that kind of gets to the throat. Yeah, and it's funny, I think it's in those situations that I I douse the fire with the bucket of water by being the confidant. Because that makes me feel like I can be the observer, I can remove myself. I can put up the wall against emotions in the moment with the two of them or individually and whatever. And then when I leave that situation and then the wall comes down. All the tension hasn't gone away, it's just been waiting at the other side of the wall.

• 24:20Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  And then it all just rushes in and and hits me after the fact.

• 24:27Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:30Esther Perel?

  Okay, so you have a place to start.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 24:34Esther Perel?

  Put it in your own words, what's the first thing you want to try to do differently or to pay attention to?

• 24:45Speaker 01

  The first thing I want to pay attention to is my own reactions.

• 24:51Esther Perel?

  Great.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  And my body when

• 24:53Esther Perel?

  Yep.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  these situations happen.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  And look for those signs. And rather than

• 25:04Speaker 01

  not vocalizing that and sitting and taking all of this and trying to help and trying to fix. I'm just going to be there.

• 25:14Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  And just going to let things happen to a certain degree. And then if it becomes

• 25:22Speaker 01

  too much, if the feeling is becoming too strong.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  I'll know to say, I'm just here to listen, I'm not here to fix.

• 25:31Esther Perel?

  Yep, you don't need to wait that long, that's the only thing I would suggest.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:36Esther Perel?

  And you feel that contraction and constriction to your chest and you put your hands on your chest and you identify it with. Oh, I know that fear, I know that tension, that grip. Um, you can let them know it's because when people fight, here's something I want to leave you with. Often when people fight in front of a friend or in front of others. They fight like they have nothing to lose. Their anger emboldens them.

• 26:11Esther Perel?

  They can say things they think have no consequences. And what's happening in your body is that you're registering the pain, the hurt, the impending loss, the scars of the slings. And that's when your chest goes really tight. You're absorbing that which they are denying. So you need to, basically, if you can, give it back to them, where it belongs. Let it be where it needs to be so that they can feel the breath and the whole range of what's happening to them. And the reason you respond so well

• 26:55Esther Perel?

  when they're going into the positive swing again is because it takes care of your anxiety and you can finally breathe again. So you are completely regulated by their swings, up and down, up and down. And that becomes your internal reality, up and down, up and down. And the boundary you're asking me is how do I maintain a boundary where whatever ups and downs they go through is not something that I'm going through? When they knock their foot, I don't have to say aye.

• 27:28Esther Perel?

  It's not your danger. It's the memory of the dangers that a little boy often experienced. But it's not the danger of today.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah. That actually feels very freeing to hear that.

• 27:44Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. You can tell him, we're not home anymore. We don't have, this is not the same. This is not mom and dad. I don't need to, you know, gather all the internal troops. Is this a good start?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a fantastic start. It really is. Thank you.

• 28:10Esther Perel?

  You're welcome.

• 28:15Speaker 00

  This was a classic Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your questions to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Atherton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers

• 28:59Speaker 00

  of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 29:59Speaker 08

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