127: Hell Yes, I'd Do It Again. Leadership Lessons From Iwo, with T. Fred Harvey.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:03:16 - T. Fred Harvey. 3:14:08 - Final Thoughts and take-aways. 3:19:14 - Support. 3:58:18 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 127 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  Iwo Jima is to me hallowed, blessed, spiritual, sacred, pure ground. If the spirits of the dead could speak, what would they be saying to me? Count off Marines and sailors, you of the vanquished dead. When your number reaches 7,000, we will know that you are present and accounted for in this your eternal duty station. Serve well. Your ranks are growing each passing day as some of us, your mates in war are coming to join you.

• 0:58Jocko Willink?

  Those endless hours of terrifying nights, the carnage, devastation and pain turned hope into despair. The remnants of formerly dynamic human bodies that carried hearts filled with dreams of peace, home and loved ones. After the rush of battle, my eyes became heavy with tears. My body trembled with rage as I looked upon the broken bodies, the searing invasion of human flesh.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  Aftermath of war, an elemental suffocating fear through and through my very soul. The intensely surging immediacy of the action was aggravated, no place to hide. There was not only an incompatibility between the Marines and the defending Japs, but the very nature of this morbid little island.

• 2:05Jocko Willink?

  The sounds of battle, which were intensified by the human voice with all its emotions, are absent today. The moral revulsion that took place here so many years ago has been forgotten. Except by those who fought here and survived. And those who lost loved ones here. And that is an excerpt from a book called, "Hell, Yes, I Do It Again",

• 2:48Jocko Willink?

  written by a man, actually written by a Marine named T. Fred Harvey, who fought in World War II in the Pacific Theater, including in the Battle of Iwo Jima, where he was severely wounded for a second time. But he survived the war. And has lived an amazing life, and it is an incredible honor to have this hero here with us to share some of the lessons that he learned. Mr. Harvey, welcome to the show.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  I'm glad to be here. I've heard a lot about this show, and I'm really pleased that you've invited me to come here and speak.

• 3:42Jocko Willink?

  Well, maybe you can just keep coming back, because we'll just sit and listen to you. We got no problem with that, sir. So, I guess we always try and go back to the beginning a little bit, and learn a little bit about you, and I know you're grown up, and your book has a bunch of incredible anecdotal stories about what it was like growing up in Texas during the Depression. So...

• 4:12Jocko Willink?

  You know, I was talking to you earlier and I said, people don't know what the depression was really like. And you described it in one word. You said, hungry. So, that's a real thing, huh? During the depression?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a real thing. I vividly remember all the good times while eating and the hungry times when I was really hungry. I joined the Marine Corps. That's the first time I had adequate food to satisfy the hunger within me.

• 4:48Jocko Willink?

  So, and you, you, you grew up with a single mom for the most part, so you, I know your dad was doing good in construction, but then the depression hit.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, the depression hit and it really hit the Harvey family. At one time, the Harvey family consisted of eleven people. Nine girls, two boys, a father and mother. And my mother was the center of my universe. When I went into the Marine Corps and the last night that I spent in Odessa before I got to boot camp, the train stopped in my hometown of Odessa. And they had the band, high school band, and a lot of people from town were there to greet us.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  The conductor say, we're gonna stop for twenty minutes because the people of Odessa wanna see you off. There was three of us going to the Marine Corps at that time. When we got there, there were girls there that were throwing kisses on me that I never dreamed of being able to even touch. And I was about ready to quit the Marine Corps and stay there.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Well, during all this, somebody grabbed my ear and jerked me around behind the depot, and it was my mom, Jessie Lee. She, my mom is a Comanche Indian, and she was a warrior. She pulled me around in the dark of the night, behind the, outside of the crowd, so nobody could hear what she had to say. And she called me Sonny because I was so bright. She put this hand up in front of me like this, right there, so I could see it.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  She said, "Sonny, you listen, and you listen good." "Yes, ma'am." She said, "Number one, when this war is over, you come home to us." "Yes, ma'am." "And don't you come home no drunkard. And you don't come home no coward. And you know what that fourth one was? And you don't come home with no tattoos." And I sure don't have any tattoos. And that was when she sent me off to San Diego.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  And I'll tell you a little bit later in this session, she came out to see me, and you'll see the reason why she came out to see me.

• 7:38Jocko Willink?

  So, you actually, at one point, and I thought this was a real interesting thing, because it seemed like you got a lot of weight on your shoulders as a young, as a youngster, and I'm gonna go to the book here for a minute. "I greeted my mom cheerfully. She avoided my eyes, and, this is just you coming home from school. I greeted my mom cheerfully as usual. She avoided my eyes and wiped her own with her apron. I noted with concern a puffy redness about them. She got up and went to the oven and brought out a baked potato and a big bowl of pinto beans. Thanking her, I dug in. In silence, she entered that same bedroom. My thoughts centered wholly on the food. Without preamble, I heard a loud, beseechingly desperate cry come through the closed door.

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  'No, Jessie, not that!' And that was your dad. With a gasp, I spewed a mouthful of food, knocked over the small table, and went through the door without benefit of the knob."

• 8:34Jocko Willink?

  In the dimly lit bedroom, I viewed a scene of heart choking horror, a picture forever etched in my memory. My father desperately grappled for the pistol my mother tried to bring down on herself or him. Without wavering or hesitation, I lunged at her with all the force I could muster. I caught her with a fist to the side of her head. She sagged at the knees, dropped the pistol, and fell forward. Inert, she laid down on the floor. I was horrified by what I had done. My father staggered back and slumped, whimpering, into a corner. I headed to the bathroom and came out with a bath towel, sopping wet with cold water. I applied it to her suffering face until she came around.

• 9:18Jocko Willink?

  Unsteadily, I helped her to her feet and then seated her on the side of the bed. All the while, Dad remained in the corner too, shaking to get up or offer any assistance. Too shaking to get up or offer any assistance. Sobbing, I cried, "Why, Mother? Why? Why?" With a clear, steady voice, she said, "Your daddy does not love us anymore. He has another woman." That's a lot of, a lot for a young kid to deal with.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the saddest moment in my whole life. I'll never forget that. And, uh, my mom was a great mom. She held the family together after he left us. He applied for divorce, and I went to the judge's chamber with my mother. And the judge called me and my father to come to him. And my mom was too weak to get up to get, go to the judge. The judge said, "Mr. Harvey, I'm granting you a divorce.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  The six remaining children in the family will remain with their mother. And you will pay in the sum of forty-two dollars for childcare a month for six children and herself." And that was the last penny my dad ever spent on us.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  We just divorced him completely from our minds and so forth. I had nothing to do with him after that. And that was the saddest moment of my whole life when that happened.

• 11:22Jocko Willink?

  And it was interesting too. You mentioned later in the book that you could have gotten, because now you were like the sole supporter of the family, you could have actually gotten a deferment from going to the war.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Yes, uh huh.

• 11:38Jocko Willink?

  And, and your mom like didn't give it to you or she knew that you wanted to go in the Marine Corps?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, for a while she held off, wouldn't sign the papers for me to go. See, I was just a sophomore in high school. And I was failing all of my subjects because I was trying to hold down two jobs to help my mom and my sisters. And it was, it was hard times. It was really bad for us all. But my mom held the rest of us together and, and I lived through it.

• 12:22Jocko Willink?

  And then, so your mom knew that you wanted to join the Marine Corps?

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And she fought me on it. And one day my cousin came home and I went to the recruiting office with him and he signed up because he was old enough to sign. And I took the papers home to my mom and she was at the clothesline hanging up wet clothes to be dried, you know? And I put that paper in front of her. I said, "This is for you to sign. I want you to sign it now because I'm going into the Marine Corps."

• 13:01Speaker 01

  She laid that wet towel on the basket, walked down there to the end of the line. I'd built her a line for drying clothes and there was some excess wire, six strand wire. She took that thing and twisted it into a long whip-like thing. Came back to me, took my left hand, her left hand, and whacked me across the rear and I made a complete circle around it. And I stopped and glared at her and I could see that she was shedding tears, the first tears that I'd ever seen her shed.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  And that broke my heart. And I stood there for a while and she turned and walked and went into the house. And then I cried, I cried hard. And so about a week later, I came home from school and she handed me a paper that she had signed for me to go into the Marine Corps. And so that was the birth of my Marine Corps.

• 14:21Jocko Willink?

  How old were you?

• 14:23Speaker 01

  I was seventeen.

• 14:25Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was seventeen and, and I couldn't pass English. And so I quit school and joined the Marine Corps.

• 14:40Jocko Willink?

  And where were you when Pearl Harbor happened? So that was what, a year prior?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  No, I was in school, but it was a Sunday day and Jake Rhodes, my buddy, had a little coop right there and we had dates and we called her big birthers. The little coop was too small for all of us to sit abreast of each other. So I sat on her lap. I just weighed a hundred and eighteen pounds and she probably outweighed me by five or six pounds. And we heard that Pearl Harbor had been attacked and that, that was the day that I learned that I was gonna be...

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Involved in a war because of that age, you know.

• 15:33Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  And so, uh.

• 15:36Jocko Willink?

  How had you heard about the Marine Corps? As opposed to the Army or the Navy?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Well, I wanted to be a paratrooper. And then I thought I'd go into the Army and be a paratrooper. Then I found out that the Marines had paratroopers. So I joined the Marine Corps instead. And I found me a home.

• 16:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, uh, you, you leave on that train. Your mom tells you, you know, don't be a coward. Don't get any tattoos. Don't be a drunkard.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:14Jocko Willink?

  And come home to us. These are good, basic, fundamental rules for a lot of people, I think, to follow. And you head off on that train to boot camp, which is right here in San Diego, California.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Yes, uh-huh. So I got through boot camp, okay. But my big problem, when they lined us up, we fitted out with shoes and clothing and everything. When it came to shoes right there, they made them. And they said, "Son, you can't join the Marine Corps because your feet are too small." And I thought, "Well, gosh, he's not gonna send me home, is he?" And everything.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  I wore a size five and a half shoe. And he said, "We just don't make shoes that small." And so I had an old pair of shoes that had worn out. Should've been thrown away. And I play a lot of poker. I knew how to play poker before I knew my ABCs. Well, anyway, I carried deck cards around all the time. So when I went to Marine Corps, I had to use the whole deck, putting about three into my shoes that had holes in them. My civilian shoes that had holes in them. And, uh, and they finally, one night, uh,

• 17:34Speaker 01

  I'd always take the top bunk in wherever I went, what barracks I was in, you know. So I put my shoes on the deck. Under the bunk, the next morning I woke up and there was, looked like somebody had taken a car tire, tire and cut out, sold for me. I was saying, it was about that thick, you know, so I had a pair of shoes that I could march in, anyway. And then, uh, when, uh, I had to cut down my dung, have dungarees cut down, you know, because it's too big and so forth. And I had a lot of trouble because I was so small.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  And then, at one time, I was small enough that Ralph Hall, my captain, or my platoon leader, he was the first lieutenant at that time, and I, Ferris, picked me as a, uh, runner. And so, one night, we were sitting around a campfire, and, uh, and I said, why did y'all pick, pick me as a, as a, as a runner? And they said, well, you were so small, so you made a small target, and you were so fast a foot that you could run, outrun any Jap in the, in the world.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  So that was the reason I was made a camp, uh, a company runner.

• 19:04Jocko Willink?

  So you were saying that your mom, it's in the book too, it's a great story about your mom bringing you something to boot camp, visiting you, bringing you something to boot camp?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, it wasn't exactly the boot camp, it was when I came back from overseas and they found out that there's gonna be an, uh, a demolition man in the assault squad. And the assault squad was composed of, uh, five men with specials and, uh,

• 19:39Speaker 01

  I was gonna be a demolition man. I was supposed to carry so many pounds of demolition on my back. And on the front, I would carry my regular pack, you know, and so forth. And so I couldn't handle a rifle. So at first, I said, well, we'll try to get you a pistol. Because I couldn't handle a rifle with all that weight and so forth. And he said, we're going to get you a pistol. I waited around a week for a pistol.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  And finally, he came out and said, the Marine Corps doesn't have any pistols, any left. And so I was desperate. So I called my mom. I said, Mom, find me a pistol. I'd like to have a Colt, 1911 Colt. And my mom went out and looked all over town. Well, I looked all over San Diego here for a pistol myself. And there just wasn't one that be had, you know. And so I called my mom and told her what I needed. And she, I sent her the money.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  I sent her $75. That is one in a poker game.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  I sent that to her. And she went around all over town looking for a pistol. Couldn't find one until she came to a trailer house down close to the railroad tracks with a guy that had a gun shop there. So she went at the house trailer and knocked on the door. And Mr. Armstrong came out and said, what do you need, ma'am? She said, I need a pistol. What kind of pistol do you need? She said, she took out the piece of paper that I'd written it on. A Colt 45, 1911.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  And he said, I just happen to have one of those. And she said, "How much is it?" And he said, "Two hundred dollars." And she said, "Oh, I can't afford that." He said, "Well, that's all I got. Why do you need such a big pistol?" She said, "Well, my son is in the Marine Corps and he needs a pistol." And so he said, "Well, this is the only one I have, but two hundred dollars."

• 22:26Speaker 01

  And, and so she backed it out of the door and went down the road. Mr. Armstrong came down and tapped her. She said, he said, "You say your son was in the Marine Corps? And, and needs a pistol?" Said, "Surely they can give him a pistol later?" She said, "No, they don't have any." And she said, "Well, come on back, we'll work up a deal." So she walked out with that pistol, cleaned of cosmoline. And he had his seventy-five dollars and she, uh...

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Needed to get there as soon as she could, you know? So she went down to the bus station, got on a bus with a paper grocery bag in it with extra clothes, you know? And got on the bus. And thirty-six hours later, she got to San Diego.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Now she crisscrossed across. In those days, you know, military guys had priority. And she'd be in one place, they would bump her off, let a guy come in, take her place. And she crisscrossed, "You may go in Arizona for thirty-six hours." Well, we were loading up to go overseas. And Cobberdarts and I were up on the truck with a bunch of sea bags. And, uh...

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Fisher, my sergeant at that time,

• 24:09Speaker 01

  was sitting in the cab with the driver and everything. So we went through the gate over at Camp Pendleton. And the gate guard said, is there any Marine up there named Harvey, Fred Harvey? And Carver woke me up. I was asleep. Woke me up and said, hey, they're calling for your name. So I looked over and I saw my mom look up at me. And I slid off that thing real fast. I came off real fast. Well,

• 24:43Speaker 01

  after a while,

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Fisher said, Harvey, we gotta, we gotta go. I want to let your mom sit in the seat. I'll get up there with y'all. And so we drove downtown and was looking for a place for her to stay. We couldn't find a place anywhere. I mean, we tried every hotel and so forth. So finally, I, this is around 12 o'clock at night. And so I went to a policeman. I said, sir, can you tell me where we might find a place for my mom to stay? A hotel or hotel or something, you know?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  And he said, well, I just don't know of any place and so forth.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what, I'll call my wife. If your mother will stay with her, I'll call her and we'll go out there. And so the wife said, yes, bring her, bring her out. So he called the office and the police car came out and drove into the house. And his wife welcomed us, opened her arms, you know? And she stayed there three different nights and

• 26:10Speaker 01

  And then I was able to, uh, Fisher would let me off, uh, quite a bit at the time, those three days that she was here. And then he finally had to put her on the bus and he wrote a note making the priority she wouldn't be bumped and everything when she got home. Well, that was a story of how I got my pistol.

• 26:35Jocko Willink?

  And it was shortly thereafter that you went on, you headed overseas?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yes, uh-huh.

• 26:42Jocko Willink?

  And that was on a, on a, a formal, former cattle ship? Is that right?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  No, that, that was the first time I went overseas.

• 26:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. So you came back in between, in between, so that, you got the pistol after your first time going overseas?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, uh, the second time I went overseas.

• 27:02Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  But the first time I went over was on the Bloemfontein.

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  You wanna hear about the Bloemfontein?

• 27:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, I read about it and it's a pretty nasty story in many ways.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Oh, that was a nasty ship. It really was. But I thought that's the way it was, you know, I hadn't seen the ocean until I'd gotten in the Marine Corps. And so, uh, they, they put us on, on the Bloemfontein. And it was in a cattle ship, a Dutch, had a Dutch captain and he was, uh, he shipped, I mean, he transferred cattle from Australia over to, uh, to the Dutch holdings in the South Pacific.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Well, when the war broke out, he had just dumped out a load of cattle and when he found out that it was war, well, he headed for San Francisco. And when he got to San Francisco, he offered it to the Navy and, uh, the Navy took it, made it into a troop ship. Now, they didn't clean that up very good, you know, they shoveled it out and they left a lot of stuff and they just painted over it. Of course, when it started sailing, that ship would buckle and everything and that...

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Cow droppings as ever for, you know. And the bunks were stacked up eight high. And I was lucky, I was small enough to get in there without any trouble. A lot of those little guys couldn't get in. And the head, uh, you know, in the Navy and Marine Corps, the bathroom is called the head, you know. Uh, the head was just a long shed from the bow of the ship back to the, uh, holdings that, you know, where the captain stood and so forth. And what had happened, they'd made a train, uh.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  A latrine?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  A what?

• 29:14Speaker 02

  A latrine.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, out there, water would flow down the thing right there. Then they had a pipe for you to sit on. Well, you just sit on that pipe and then, uh, do your thing and get up and leave, you know. Well, that thing broke down. And so here we were out at sea with no way to dispose of, uh, you know, the droppings. Well, anyway, so the Dutch captain signed this crew to set, uh, uh, make things on the front of the ship. It kinda like saddles, uh, uh, deals on the side of a horse, you know.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  You just go up there and drop your pants and sit down on that thing and, and drop it to feed the fish, you know. Well, I was too bashful to go out there and use that because there were thirteen naval nurses on that same ship and they sit up there and I, and I held off as, I was trying to hold off to a dart because I was too embarrassed to go. But finally I had to go, so I just went up there and dropped my pants like the rest of them did. Well, you know, when you're floating along there, you're going up and down. First thing you know, your butt is in the water and it comes back out.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  And, uh, you didn't really need toilet paper because you didn't need them because it wasn't any on there. That was a problem the whole time I was in Marine Corps overseas was toilet paper. Oh, that was something. But that's the way we traveled there and, uh.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  When you go through the, I was seasick. I was seasick all the time. They put me in the, in the sick bay. And for some reason, there was a box of high hole crackers in there. I don't know what it was doing on a troop ship, but there was something on there. And so I'd eat a couple of those every hour. And I'd hide them, so nobody else could get them. And we was on that ship for twenty-nine days to get to New Caledonia. And one day, the ship broke down. Here we are drifting out there, and we drifted for, oh, probably thirty or forty hours, you know?

• 31:41Speaker 01

  And we was taking bets as where we would drift to in South America. And, and they, they get, passed the word out that we was supposed to keep our life belts on at all times. And keep your eyes looking out for submarines. Cause we didn't have any escort. We was just out there by ourselves on a slow cattle ship. And we was in real trouble. And, and we drifted for seventy-two hours. And they finally got the engine going again. So here we are going to overseas. We didn't know where we were going, you know?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  And then we got a scare that there was possibly a Jap submarine in the area. So we pulled into the nearest island we were close to, you know? We pulled in there, and I fell in love with that, that island. It was Tonga to Po. And we was went in there, it was one of these things you see in the movies, you know? And we pulled in that bay and dropped anchor. And here the natives came out paddling canoes, and they had coconut, pineapple, a lot of fruit and stuff.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  They'd throw them up to us, and man, we fight for those things. Well, anyway, they came, came back that night and entertained us. On the deck of the ship, we was sitting around there, and they were... They're doing their dances, the hula dances. And it was a beautiful island. How many is beautiful? And I swore up right there, I said to myself, Fred Harvey, there's a lot more in this world than Odessa, Texas. And I'm gonna see some of it before I die. And so they put on a show and at last they sung their island song. You know what it was?

• 33:53Speaker 01

  "You are my sunshine." And we pulled away from there and we got started. Then we stopped, went back. What's going on? Six guys had jumped ship. They went ashore and brought them back. But I didn't think about jumping ship. If I'd thought about it, I might have joined them. And so we pulled out and finally got to, uh, uh, New Caledonia. We'd been at sea for twenty-nine days. And we was all tickled to finally get there. But that ship was a hell ship, you know?

• 34:38Speaker 01

  And when we got there, they took us off the ship.

• 34:44Jocko Willink?

  And this is now in New Caledonia?

• 34:46Speaker 01

  New Caledonia.

• 34:46Jocko Willink?

  And so you're a couple of months out of boot camp at this point?

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay. And so this is the first place you stop? And you're gonna, basically, just for people that don't know, you're gonna get to New Caledonia and you're gonna kind of train and prepare for, for going out and taking down some islands?

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, there was two reasons we went there. We were gonna farm up with, uh, the rest of the troops, you know? The first parachute battalion was already there. In fact, they were involved in the water canal. And so, uh, we were going down there to replace the guys. So I was, I went to the first parachute battalion. They were sixty miles from, uh,

• 35:45Speaker 01

  The base that we came in on, I can't remember the base that we landed at, or the port we landed at, but it was the capital of New Caledonia and our, the parachute battalions were stationed out about sixty miles from

• 36:08Jocko Willink?

  New Mea.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  New Mea, yeah, New Mea was the capital of that place.

• 36:14Jocko Willink?

  And then, once you got, is that where you met your, that where you joined up, you're saying, with your parachute company?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh huh. Yeah, I was assigned to the first parachute battalion.

• 36:27Jocko Willink?

  And did you, did you, if I remember correct, did you go to Guadalcanal this, at this point?

• 36:34Speaker 01

  No, we went later. When we went up to our first action together after Guadalcanal was, we were supposed to go to Bella Lovella and things. So on our way up there, we stopped off at Guadalcanal.

• 36:59Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  And that's after, Guadalcanal had been secured, you know. And so, they let us scrimmage. We went up to find some of the old guys that had escaped, Japanese that had escaped, and we didn't see anything, so we didn't get to shoot any Japs. So we were there

• 37:29Speaker 01

  a couple of days, and we got up for chow one morning, just about before sunup and everything. And I was up at the front of the line. I'd always managed to get to the front of the line.

• 37:42Jocko Willink?

  For, for chow?

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, for chow.

• 37:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you, you've mentioned throughout the book that you're a guy that liked your chow.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Oh, I loved chow. I was trying to catch up with the hunger I had then during the depression. Well, anyway.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  We was in line there, waiting to go in to get the child, you know. And then I heard a lot of laughing carrying on back to the line. So I ran down to see what the action was, you know. And there's three bedraggled Japanese had just come out of the line, out of the jungle, and got in line. And an officer got, came down there and that could speak Japanese and they, they said they were hungry and everything. So they took them up there and fed them. And they kept them there, I guess, as long as they needed them.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  They was washing pots and pans and doing work there when we left and so forth.

• 38:47Jocko Willink?

  They got off light. And so as you were preparing to go, now you're working, you, you had a couple of guys that you mentioned in the book. You know, I'll start with the first one. I'm gonna mention three of them. Uh, Major Fagan, Fagan, is that how you say it?

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Fagan, yeah.

• 39:08Jocko Willink?

  Fagan, Major Fagan. He sounds like one tough customer.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  He was tough. I mean, he was, I was scared. I'd see him coming down, you know, the trail or anything like that. I'd jump in the jungle, keep, because I was scared of him. Well, everybody was scared of him because he was tough. He just drove us. He found out that Japanese marched, uh, with full packs in a 24 hour period, marched 39 miles. He said, "We're gonna beat that." And we marched 50 miles with full packs out there on New Caledonia. And we would walk up the hills and trot down the hills that came down there.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  And we went 50 miles. And I don't know whether it's any kind of record book or anything, but we was proud of it and so forth.

• 40:04Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if it's a record book either, but I know it hurt.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:08Jocko Willink?

  Now, you also, you tell a couple of stories in the book about him, um, he, he was, he had no problem putting people on bread and water.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Oh, no problem, no problem. In fact, I was put on bread and water. I had a buddy there that was, uh... Went through the parachute platoon with me right there. He nearly got us killed in the thing. I won't give him his name, you know. But he passed away several years ago, but I don't wanna say anything. We don't wanna incriminate his actions. Well, he, uh, when we was going through parachute school, his name, well, I'll tell you his name, uh, last name, his name was Harmon. So when we lined up alphabetically and everything we did, you know,

• 41:00Speaker 01

  well, he was always right behind me. So when we went to, uh, parachute school, we wound up together, you know, because of our names being real close to one another. Well, anyway, uh, now, when we jumped, the Marine Corps jumped from the plane, we dove out head first. Their theory was that when you jump out and that parachute opens right there, you kinda swang with it right there. Well, the Army jumped them out feet first and came down and so forth. So we jumped them, we jumped out head first.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Uh, we were training there in, uh, out here in Camp Gillespie, that's where the parachute school was. And, uh, we lined up and, uh, to make our first jump, well, Harmon was behind me. Well, in the plane, we had, we called it the Blue Goose. Now, we had to borrow that from the Navy because Marine Corps didn't own any planes itself. So we used the Blue Goose. So they took us out there in a truck, you know, the guys that had volunteered to go into the parachute school. And that truck driver drove us out there and, uh,

• 42:30Speaker 01

  And the barracks and the offices and everything was on top of this hill and below was the runway and that's where we jumped into that area. That truck driver drove up there and stopped real fast. He said, "They're fixing to jump, you guys wanna watch?" And so we all jumped out of the truck. There was about ten or fifteen of us, you know, jumped out of the truck and watched them. It flew over, man, here they come diving out. One of them was coming down fast, he was flailing like this. His parachute didn't open. And so, just before he hit the deck, that parachute opened. He had to pull out his, uh, reserve chute.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Now, the reserve chute was on the front and it didn't have a pilot chute on it. So, when you pull the rip part, you're supposed to pull out that silk itself. Well, it wasn't silk, it was nylon. Well, he was pulling that out, just he got it filled out, he hit the deck. And a jeep was on his way down there and they put him in that jeep, put a parachute on him, got him out on the plane. The plane went up there, out he came again. And that truck driver said, "Any of you guys wanna go back to boot camp?" And two guys got back on the truck and went back. And I thought, "Seriously, about joining them, you know?"

• 43:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's not a good initiation into parachute jumping, that's for sure.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, we had to pack our own chutes. We learned how to pack chutes and we... And every step you took at parachute school, you had to be running. If you weren't running, an officer or an NCO would catch you, you were in trouble, you know. So, every step we took, we learned how to pack chutes, running up and down. I got where I could pack a chute in twelve minutes. One day, they said, "You're gonna pack a chute today and you're gonna jump tomorrow." And I said, "I better take a little bit more time." So, it took me thirty minutes to do that one. Well, that night, uh...

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Oh, what was that Indian's name but uh? Ira Hayes. Ira Hayes. He was in my platoon. You've heard of Ira Hayes, he raised the flag on the eagle. He was real quiet and there was another Indian in there with him. And that night before we jumped, that guy jumped off and hollered gung ho, you know, and broke both of his ankles. So that ended his parachute. But Ira was a, he was, he was a good Marine. He was quiet, you know, he never, never said much. And I'd talk to him, you know, because my mom was a Comanche Indian and I had some Indian blood, you know, and I'd tell him that, you know, and, and we became close friends.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  But he was so quiet, you know, he's a great, great guy, but he's, he's quiet. Well, you know, the history of what he did and what happened to a poor guy. Yeah. Well, anyway, we came out and that first jump we made, we made the jump.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  And when I came out, I dove out when my chute opened, I was standing on another chute below me. Well, it was Harmon, he should have been above me because he was coming out of there. Well, we didn't think much about it, you know. I just thought it was, that's the way it was jumping was like. Well, the next day, we jumped again and we came up, we were tangled together. And, uh, and their chutes, you know, when they're slanting up like that, air was going up too fast, you know, when holding the chute. And when we hit, man, there's like a ton of bricks hitting, you know, man, it hurt

• 46:33Speaker 01

  and everything because that chute hadn't, uh, wasn't able to, those chutes weren't able to hold us up. So we hit the ground pretty hard, so the jump masters and the guy on the deck watched and things, they said, what happened? And I don't know, they didn't ask anything of Harmon, you know. It was always me looking at, you know. Well, anyway.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Well, in fact, they was looking at me because I didn't even have boots on there. One time, I said, "Where's your boots?" I said, "Y'all don't have any that'll fit me." So they finally got me a pair of six size and told me to wear four pair of socks, you know what I mean? Those were the first boots I had. Well, back to Harmon. Well, the next time we jumped, I came out bruised up and everything when we jumped. Uh, I was, my chute, uh, the shroud lines had tangled up in my boots, you know?

• 47:36Speaker 01

  So I whipped out the K-bar knife and cut those two strands of, uh, uh, rope, you know, to let me down. Just before I hit the ground, well, I got my feet down first, you know? They come running over to me and, "What is going on there? What's happening?" "I don't know." And so, what had happened, when my parachute, when I jumped out, or dove out of the thing right there, I was facing the plane and my saddle climb was playing out between my legs. And so that's where my boot, uh, foot got tangled up in the shroud lines.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Man, they came up there and they decided I was too light to be in, uh, in a parachute, you know? And so, the sergeant over there at the, at the loft where we, uh, packed our chute, you know? He and the officer were talking. They said, "Well, he's just too light." And, and I was standing there talking. I said, I said, "Y'all can't kick me out. I want to stay in this outfit. I want to stay in it." And so that sergeant...

• 48:56Speaker 01

  He said, "Why don't we put him in a Army Navy canopy?" Now, the Army Navy canopy was only twenty-six feet diameter. And the ones we used, the nylon, the ones we used was twenty-eight, you know, just a bigger canopy and everything. So this guy took an Army Navy parachute, took it out and put it on a all the carriage, you know, I forget what they called it, you know, where you folded your chute and put it on there. And so here I am with a parachute, you know, made out of silk instead of nylon.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  And silk reacts a lot faster than nylon does. So, so when that chute opened, I got a pretty good kick out of it. Well, when we came out, and that day we were gonna jump with weapons. And so they gave us all a rising gun. You ever heard of a rising gun? No. It was about as worthless, it's a grease gun, so we called it a grease gun. It was a terrible weapon. They outlawed them in the military right quick. Well, anyway, I had one of those.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  And when I went out the door, the Harmon hit me and knocked my, that rising gun down. It went down, stuck in the girdle, and they, they this was our, our fourth jump. And, and the sergeant said, they were, they were considering just really to drop me, send me back to boot camp to be assigned somewhere else, you know. I, with tears in my eye, begged them, "Let me stay," you know. Well, and then the sergeant said, "I'm gonna go up."

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Tomorrow and watch and see what is happening. And so he went up there and found out what was happening. Here, we're coming down this white line in the fuselage of the plane. And then the white line was right there leading out the door. So we were supposed to come down and make a sharp turn and dive out. While I was coming down there and going out the proper way, Harmon was coming down there. And he was cutting across and he was going through the door at the same time I was. And it was knocking me against the side over there. And, and he was just knocking me out.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  He was, the chute was opening before mine was opening. And so we got that straightened out. And, and that wasn't the only trouble I had with Harmon, but that's a different story. Or maybe I shouldn't bring it up here.

• 52:00Jocko Willink?

  So you actually, you actually talk about when you did find to get your first jump. Everything went good. And you said, you know, I had never made first string in any sport because of my size. But when they pinned those wings on my chest and shoved a rifle into my hands, I'd at last made first string. With that rifle in my hands, size no longer seemed relevant. I had made the team and found a home. The Marine Corps filled all my dreams and all my needs. Harmon actually ended up getting you in trouble.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:34Jocko Willink?

  Right? While you were in New Caledonia.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I won't go into the pink house, but I do in the book, don't I?

• 52:44Jocko Willink?

  I, I don't know.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Our day off was Wednesday. First Battalion got Wednesday off, you know, they didn't let us all off at the same time because they didn't want another Pearl Harbor type thing. Because the Japs were still on the offensive at that time. So he, he got where he would go down there every Wednesday. And he fell in love with one of those girls and they fell in love with, or she fell in love with him. But he went in there and he didn't get the bus, but last truck going back to base and he didn't get back in time.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  So he had to hitchhike. I don't know how he got there, but he got there about, oh, about an hour after roll call and everything. So when he showed up, well, Fagan just put him on five days, bread and water.

• 53:42Jocko Willink?

  Fagan don't play around.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, when you buy, we'd buy something over there from the PX. You couldn't go in and buy one bar of candy or one can of beans or anything like, you had to buy a whole box. So on his third day, I went, went over and got me a, a Joe Boy. Now, Joe Boy was a, a non-chocolate, you couldn't have chocolate candy in the tropics because it'd melt, you know? So they had this nougat, uh, covered with peanuts and it's called Joe Boy. So I went by there one night and I opened up and I was eating one of them and I hollowed at him through the barbed wire thing.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  He was in a tent and it was kind of in a clearing in the woods, you know? He said, "Tell me one of those things. I haven't had anything but bread and water for three days now." I said, "No, I'm not going to throw you. That's against the rules." "Oh, come on, please. I would do it for you. Just couple of them." So I looked around, took two of them out and threw them a little like, "Corporal of the Guard." Fagan had seen me. Well, he came over and he said, "Put this guy in there." And, uh, Ot Ferris happened to be the Corporal of the Guard at that time.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  And he said, "Well, we can't. We're all packed up, you know? We don't have, there's just one, uh, bunk, uh..."

• 55:18Speaker 01

  What thing you caught in there and the rest of them are all packed and ready to go. And said, there's no place for him to sleep. He said, well, take that guy out and put this guy in there.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  And so the next day I'm sitting there and I had already had a couple of loaves of bread and water. He came by with a box of candy. I said, come on, throw me one of those things. I said, no, that's against the rules. I don't want to get in trouble. So he never did so one over to me.

• 55:53Jocko Willink?

  Cold blooded. Uh, now you were gonna get sort of written up for that. Um, and Lieutenant Hall, who you know, you had a lot of respect for, I'm going back to the book here. He, so now you're checking in with Lieutenant Hall and he's supposed to write you up and put this in your permanent record.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:12Jocko Willink?

  And he says, Harvey, he said with a document in hand, I was ordered to write you up, but I can't put it in your records as all our records have been stowed away to remain here. I'll have to carry this paper with me and it will surely get lost in the jungle before we get back to civilization. Again, I got a knowing smile and a pat on the back. Now get out of here and forget what has happened. Get your gear in order. I think we're taking a boat ride. I gave him the smartest salute possible and said, thank you, sir. I appreciate what you've done for me. I think I might have skipped to my tent filled with the deep joy and the deliciousness of being a Marine. I left my troubles behind me and soon got to feel the thrill of combat. I realized soon after, in the heat of battle,

• 56:56Jocko Willink?

  that the harsh demanding training of that Major Richard Fagan, Sergeant Ott Ferris and Lieutenant Ralph F. Hall put us through paid off. We performed well under fire. Ferris and Fagan received wounds in the Battle of Iwo Jima. Lieutenant Hall died in the Battle of Iwo Jima. I shed bitter tears when I heard the news of his death. He was a great Marine. At Iwo, Fagan earned the Navy Cross. As we fought for Bougainville, Sergeant Ferris did some amazing things for which he received. The coveted Silver Star. Later, at the Battle for Iwo, he earned the Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals. Then he went on to win his second Silver Star and Purple Heart during the Korean War.

• 57:39Jocko Willink?

  Heck, this guy hung around to fight in Vietnam in the 1960s. A Marine's Marine, I found serving with him a great honor. One of the high points of my life. Even today, 70-plus years later, we get together from time to time. What do we talk about? Of course, the war and our buddies of that bygone era.

• 58:03Jocko Willink?

  So you had, I thought that was just a great leadership story about how Lieutenant Hall just said, "Hey, you know what? We're gonna, we're gonna shred this document," and it never happened.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:14Jocko Willink?

  And then you move to your first, was your first combat was being in Boganville?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Uh, no, Vella Lovella was the first one.

• 58:23Jocko Willink?

  Okay. And what was, what was going into Vella Lovella? Bella, what was it? Vella Lovella?

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Vella Lovella. Well, you know, we was island hopping over there. What we would do, we'd evade an island, put in an airstrip and everything, and to use to hop to the next island. Cause it didn't, when we was through, it nearly vacated the, the old, the airfield that we used, put in and everything. And so Vella Lovella was, uh, one of those stages and everything. And across the bay there, I think is something like 13 miles or something, was Colom Bengara.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Now that was just an island, just sticking up, a volcanic island, just sticking up in the ocean, and it was, uh...

• 59:24Speaker 01

  The Jap occupied it. And, uh, but we took Vella La Vella and put in an airstrip there. We landed there and that was when I had my first taste of action. Uh, we moved in to the, uh, to the jungle. And the Seabees were supposed to follow us in, you know, and start building our... Well, the Seabees were a tough outfit. They were getting ahead of us. And we'd had to, she'll back. So they made us ask us to get on the, put snipers on the, their tractors. And that's what we did and everything.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  But, um, then we moved, when we were moving out of the beach, well, we had sent out on patrol because we hadn't, uh, when we invaded, we didn't run into any Japs. But we found that there were some up there, so we were gonna go up and then attack them before they could get down and, and work over the Seabees that were building the airstrip, you know? And so it was so hot and the jungle was so thick, we had to have, uh, guys using matches, you know, to chop our way through there. Well, we'd last only about ten minutes using those choppers to get through there.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  They're just big blades, you know, just use, uh, use just chop through the vines. Well, we were staggered. A guy was here, I was here, and then another guy was here. And we were working our way through it. And, uh, and the Jap, uh, Nambo opened up on us. And this Jap was up in a tree. And he shot, and it killed these two guys that were in this line over here and I. Was over here, so he didn't get us, get it all, three of us. Well, anyway, then he went after me and I just jumped under the shreds and uh,

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  the brush and everything, and I just crawled from one place or another. And I don't think he could see me, but he was probably see the leaves and branches working. He, he was firing at me and everything. And so, a guy, a big guy had an A4 machine gun. You know, that's an air-cooled thirty caliber weapon. And he had an asbestos glove. And he was big enough and strong enough that he could fire a short burst at a time with it and everything. So he said, Harvey, what tree is that guy in? I said, that big one over here on the left.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  He said, that doesn't mean a thing, they're all big on the left and right. And so, I said, fire at one of them right there now, I'll give you directions where to go. So, uh, that guy fired at me and they saw where he was shooting right there. So, this guy, I wish I could think of his name, this big guy. I admired him because he was so big and strong. But he just saturated that thing with that A4 machine gun. And sure enough, here came a JAP hanging out. He had a rope around his foot and that Nambo machine gun, that's the first JAP weapon I'd seen.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  That's the first time I'd been shot at, you know. So I remember the Nambo real well. Well, anyway, uh, that was, that was my first action. And man, I hated those JAP machine guns. But if I had to go to war right now, I would get me a JAP Nambo machine gun. And there's a picture of it right there. That weapon was something else. Had to shoot, had a magazine, it'd hold twenty shells and. And I ran across another one at Iwo Jima, that's another story. But.

• 1:03:45Jocko Willink?

  And then you guys pretty much mopped up that first operation and there wasn't too much resistance?

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  No, there wasn't too much resistance.

• 1:03:54Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then you moved on after that? Was that when you headed to Boganville? Was that the next place you hit?

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  We went to Boganville after that.

• 1:04:03Jocko Willink?

  You got an interesting story about, about Boganville that kind of, I think's worth, uh,

• 1:04:11Jocko Willink?

  might be worth talking about a little bit because it's kind of shows how, you know, war's not always what it's made out to be in the movies.

• 1:04:21Jocko Willink?

  So here we're going. You, you were actually speaking of toilet paper and in this particular situation, you were just done getting done. You'd gone to relieve yourself by a little house. And then you hear the order, "I heard the order, move out on the double." "As I stood between the house and the banyan tree buckling my belt, something in the vague misty light caused, caught my eye." "I stood in rapt amazement as a guy came diligently down the tree." "I could see that he had only a piece of cloth around his waist. When he reached the bottom, he bent forward as if to pick up a sandal." "I watched in utter wonderment as this scene played out before me, just a little guy. When he straightened up,

• 1:05:03Jocko Willink?

  "I stepped up and brought my rifle stock across the back of his head with a glancing blow. He turned as he crumpled and landed fully on his back." "I looked down and to my horror, found myself looking at a female instead of a male." "Stunned and shaken by my act, I choked on a sob and trembled uncontrollably. What had I done?" "As I stood there bathed in pity and compassion, all hell broke loose." "The shattering clatter of small arms fire broke the silence. Trying hard to choke back the sobs, I raced to join the firefight, "glad to leave that pitiful, pathetic scene and act." An outnumbering force pinned us down all day.

• 1:05:47Jocko Willink?

  Although desperately busy during this time, my thoughts kept going back to the base of that banyan tree. At midday, our ammunition ran low. The sergeant ordered me back to the rear to find more. I veered from a direct path to the beach to pass by that tree of infamy. I found neither her nor her body. I quickly ran around the tree and under the house to no avail. I ventured up the steps to look inside the house. Inside, it looked like an infirmary or aid station, but empty. I hoped that I had only stunned her and she had walked away from the area. After the incident, I gave a great deal of thought to that lady in the coconut grove. Definitely of oriental heritage, I wondered her purpose there.

• 1:06:30Jocko Willink?

  I thought of several possibilities. She could have served as a nurse in the Japanese military, or a resident of the island brought there by the Lever Brothers Soap Company to work in the coconut groves. Also, she might come from Korea, one of the many Korean women kidnapped by the Japs to serve as prostitutes for their military. No matter the reason, I hope and pray that she survived the blow to her head and the war. In my lifespan, I've stored many, many items in my arsenal of memories. The memory of that day so very long ago rests among my most vivid. The memorable events on that lonely beach on the far side of planet Earth have not dimmed over time nor distance.

• 1:07:14Jocko Willink?

  It all took place because I crawled beneath a house.

• 1:07:18Jocko Willink?

  I think I lost the last vestige of the little boy within me that day.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was really tough on me, you know. I remembered my sisters, you know, and thought how terrible it would be if they were hit like that.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  It stuck with me all these years, you know. I remember that little lady in that jungle.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  That was another story.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  There. We were sent up there. What was the name of that beach?

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  Corey.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Corey Beach. We'd heard that the Japs were fixing to come up there. So we sent the first battalion up there and a company of raiders up there. We went up there, left our base at about 12 o'clock. And it was 12 miles up the island. And when we invaded, invaded it during the night, we waited until it began to get light. Well, there was a Japanese officer came in, walked into the group. I didn't see him, because I was out on the flank. But it was a Japanese officer. He came down there, hollering instructions and everything.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  And he didn't know it was Marines that had come ashore. He thought it was, because they were building up to invade that area where we were building the airstrips, you know. And so they shot him dead right there. And then all hell broke loose, because we were outnumbered 10 to 1. And when I finished with doing my job and hurting that little girl, well, I ran to catch up with the bunch, you know. Well, the first guy I caught up with was Whitey Mainz. And he was in my company and everything. So we went on up there and we was on the very end of flank there.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  And we both had Johnson rifles. And that's all we had to protect that flank with. And that's a weak point of the line. And Hall came up there, oh, I'd say about 9 or 10 o'clock. He said, "What are y'all doing down here? You're supposed to be up there with us." And they had gone on up there and we were B company. We were with B company. And A company was in the middle of the, of the group, you know. And so he just said, "Well, stay here and I'll get an A4 down here to protect this flank." You know, the flank is a weak point on the line.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Said, "Y'all protect it."

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Well, it was a coconut grove that we hid into and they had a road behind that coconut grove. And those Japs were using that whole material up there to invade that airstrip. And so here, Whitey and I were on the flank there and that's where we were taking. Well, they began to send planes down there. They were strafing that road that we were struck out along, you know. And those planes were coming hard and fast. If they hadn't come up there to protect us, they'd have wiped us out.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  There was a whole regiment of Japs there fixing to invade that deal right there. And those planes were coming just one after another. And they didn't even bother to put up their landing gears. They just left them down. And it'd come along strafing. They'd drop bombs along the way. And we were on the very end. We were afraid they was going to start their shooting before they got to. We'd get out there and wave at them right there and they'd go by us and wave at us and start strafing. And we were there all day long. And

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  and the commander down at the, at the airbase told them to they're just sending up crafts to take us off. And Fagin answered, no, we're not going to be the first man, Marines to be pushed off of a beach. We were scheduled to be taken off at seven o'clock and that's when we will start.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Boarding of boats. So we was out all day long. And it was a long day. And Hall, he came up our few times. And we had Johnson rifles. We didn't have the N one rifle. We had Johnson rifles, a thirty caliber, cylinder fed thing, didn't even use clips in them. And I thought it was the best weapon that I had beside, in the, in the war beside the Nambu. And Hall would bring us ammunition up there. And then he finally come up there late in the afternoon. He said, you gotta make this last because there's, we're nearly out of ammunition.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  And so here we were. And we was, couldn't do anything till seven o'clock. So ships, Higgins boats were out there circling, waiting for seven o'clock, I guess. Because then, uh, Ot Farris came up there and he said, now we're gonna be taking off. And we'll start at seven o'clock. And that's about an hour and a half from now. And the guys next to you, they're in company B now. Because of the mix up, you know, Whitey Mainz and I was involved in. Well, anyway.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Uh, Ot Farris told us, said, when these guys over here, they're gonna leave. And when they leave, they're gonna holler and let you know that they're leaving. You count to fifty as fast as you can and then get down to the beach. Okay, so we sit there, we sit there. We hear these boats coming in and taking off and, uh, shooting and everything on it right there. I said, Whitey, gosh, what time is it? Uh, we should be getting out of here and everything. And Whitey said, hollered over at those other guys right there and they didn't answer us. So I walked over there. They'd already left and didn't call it out. So here we were.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Only two guys left on the beach, I guess. And we started running. Well, I was pretty fast, so I took, uh, Whitey's, uh...

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Johnson rifle and I carried both of them down there and I still beat him down to the bus, I mean to the uh.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  Higgins.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Higgins boat. But it wasn't a Higgins boat, it was a.

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  LCVP.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  It was what?

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  LCVP.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  LCVT, it's heavier than a Higgins boat and it's all steel right there. So here we are, running down there and hollering, "Don't leave, don't leave" and everything. Well, Odd Farish was on the deck and uh, and the ramp on that LSV was at about a forty-five degree angle because that was taking shots from the Japs and Odd Farish was, they down there, he, and uh, and uh, uh, Captain Hayes, he's captain by this time, he was trying

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  to hold us up and everything and Fagan was on that boat and this little coxswain on the thing right there said, "We're moving out, we're leaving right there." Fagan said he fought his way through those guys down there, put that pistol in that kid's hand, "Put this back on, I want to blow your bleep head off." So he put it back on there and the guys that had ran out of it, they was telling us about what happened. And so here we are, running and so forth and I got down there and Odd Farish took those two riflers, threw them up, up there into the boat and uh, Hall got them to lower

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  it a little bit right there, uh, thing and then uh, Odd Farish took us, took us by our foot, you know, and heaved us up there and Hall pulled us on in and I got up there and hear, uh, old Whitey Man's finally got there and uh, that's how we got off the island.

• 1:16:38Jocko Willink?

  Jeez, but you held the line until seven o'clock?

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Jocko Willink?

  As you were ordered?

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the, uh, it took about thirty to forty minutes, I guess, to get everybody off there and we, we were the last two to get off the island and uh.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  I'd been on the beach before at night and I didn't want to be on the beach again in Japanese territory.

• 1:17:05Jocko Willink?

  Now, once you got back on the boat, um, or you got back out, um, now the next thing to do is prepare for Iwo?

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  Well, we got back, uh, uh, they took us out. We got back on a destroyer and was heading back in, uh, to, uh, Empress Augustus Bay. That was on Vogonville. That's where we invaded and set up a, uh, airstrip, you know, to attack New Guinea. But anyway,

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  we got the word, uh, I forget exactly when he got it, that, uh, breaking up the paratroopers who was coming back to the States.

• 1:17:48Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  And so we got back to the States and was integrated into the Fifth Division.

• 1:17:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. Well, that's interesting that you, so that, this is when you told the whole story about your mom coming to bring you forty-five. This is when this is now happening.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:05Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  That one.

• 1:18:07Jocko Willink?

  And did you get, you guys just sailed back to America?

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, we came on back to America. We was on Liberty ships.

• 1:18:16Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  And, uh,

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  and they got, uh, got us back to Pendleton and, uh,

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  we got a little leave. I don't know how long it was. It might've been thirty days leave, you know? And, and we started forming up in the Fifth Division.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  And that's when I, uh, when we got back,

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  I was, uh, I had what they call a...

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  The crud, you know, I broke out all over the body, just like having athlete's foot on your whole body. And so they brought us back and another story that I might throw in here. We were stationed over there at Camp Pendleton and we lined up one morning to go into Chiao, you know, it was still about half dark, you know, and we were standing

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  there and Odd Fares is out in front and there's a group come marching up there, turned out to be women. And Odd Fares said, well, man, this man's outfit is going to pot. We have dogs in there and then we have this group in here and everything. Now we got women in here. He's shaking his head. Then we heard a guy up here said, fire two for effect.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  Another guy down here hollered back, bam bam. And those women nearly broke ranks, you know, going after those guys. And I found out what bam meant. That meant broad ass Marines. And they didn't go for that. So they just want to break ranks and come after them. But that was when I first found out that there were women in the Marine Corps.

• 1:20:34Jocko Willink?

  And so now you're preparing, at this point, you're preparing to go back overseas with the fifth, the fifth Marines?

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, fifth division.

• 1:20:43Jocko Willink?

  Or, sorry, fifth division?

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  We was in the 26th Marines.

• 1:20:47Jocko Willink?

  Got it, got it. And is this when you, is this when you met Bazelon back here in California?

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I, I, his group was over there at the child line one time and several of the guys said, "That's Barcelona, that's Barcelona." Of course, he is my hero too, you know, so just soon as we got there lined up to go into the child hall, I snuck over and I said, "Sir, can I shake your hand?" He certainly shook my hand and went back. And that was my experience with Barcelona. Now, Cobber Darch had told me quite a bit about Barcelona because they were, he was about, how far did he say? Thirty yards. Thirty yards from Barcelona when Barcelona was earning his Congressional Medal of Honor.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  You know, he was the first enlisted man to be awarded Medal of Honor in, in the Marine Corps in World War II.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  And, and then, you know, he came back, he was in prays and, oh, bomb drives and so forth, and he had it made, but he wanted to get back to, to the Marine Corps and work

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  with the Marines groups again. So we joined up and came back and he got killed at Iwo Jima.

• 1:22:22Jocko Willink?

  Now, was, wasn't, and we'll get to that for sure, wasn't, um, did I read that Cobber was actually Chesty Puller's runner?

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:31Jocko Willink?

  In Guadal, was that Guadalcanal?

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  Guadalcanal, yeah. He was talking about Guadalcanal all the time, you know, and I'd never heard of Chesty Puller until Cobber started telling about it and everything. And,

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  And Carter loved that, all the Marines loved old Chesty Pudler. And I'd like to have served under him, but I served under some good guys. Fagan was one of them, he was, you know, he wasn't loved like Chesty Pudler was, but he was an efficient leader of men right there.

• 1:23:14Jocko Willink?

  And then what did he, so you're back home in America, for how long you back home for, getting ready to head back over?

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Well, let's see, it wasn't too long, you know, they, I had to go over there, I told you, I had to go to the hospital and be treated for, we called it Japanese crud, no, Chinese crud, and it was just breaking out, you know, kinda like, I always thought it was kinda like athlete's foot oil with the whole bodily. And the only treatment, they'd put some kinda blue medicine on us and everything. And so I was over here in the Balboa Hospital for nearly a month before I was released from

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  there, before I got rid, there was a lot of us in that same position, you know.

• 1:24:11Jocko Willink?

  And then, back on another ship to head back overseas?

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  Well, we trained over here for a couple of months, and then we was trained up for to go overseas and we made a practice invasion of one of the little islands off of here, and we invaded it, you know, practicing, and when we got there, we lined up on the beach and we kept sitting there waiting to be told to move on in or something like that. We sat there and sit there and everything. Finally the officers came on and told us, said, "Hey, we're going back on the ships, we're heading overseas again."

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  And so, we went back aboard ship and went over here, came over here to Camp Pendleton and started getting ready to go back overseas again.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  And that's when I asked my mother to find me a pistol and that's when she she came over.

• 1:25:22Jocko Willink?

  And then what, you do more training in Camp Taro? That's the big island of Hawaii?

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:25Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  The camp was called Camp Taro, so we trained there. And I was, that's when I was assigned to an assault squad. And I was a demolition guy in that thing. And that was quite an experience. And, uh, let's see. Then we trained and got ready to go to, to, uh, Iwo. And while we were training there, at Camp Taro on the big island, you know, they'd line us up every Tuesday, no, I mean Wednesday,

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  and give us two cans of Lucky Lager beer. Well, I didn't drink right there, but Carver loved that beer. And so I would give my two to him, and he would take and hide those and drink his two with the boys, you know. And he swore me to secrecy, don't you tell anybody that I got to. So when he hit the island of Iwo Jima, he was carrying fourteen cans of beer.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Well, anyway, on the way over there.

• 1:26:46Jocko Willink?

  Actually, there's a picture in your book, and you got him with a little demo satchel on, but you say there's no demo in that satchel, it's all beer.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was beer. And he threw away his, uh, gas mask and had four cans of beer in that gas mask.

• 1:27:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's what it was, gas mask container.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  Bag, you know. Well, anyway, uh, we heard on the ship, we listened to Tokyo Rose. You know, we liked to listen to her because she played good music, you know, and she's supposed to be breaking our morale down, but she was helping our morale. Well, she said, "Well, I hear that the Marines..." She always said, "Well, I heard that the little Marines are gonna be hitting one of our islands soon." And she said, "They better bring their gas mask." And we heard that, you know. And I said, "Carver, what you gonna do? I'm gonna shoot you."

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  And so, they didn't use gas on us, thank goodness.

• 1:27:51Jocko Willink?

  Did you, uh... When do you find out? Back then, when did you find out, "Hey, the target is Iwo Jima, that's where you're going"? When did you start getting that briefing? And know where you're actually heading? Was that once you're on board the ships?

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were on the board ship. Well, we got aboard ship and we sailed around and we went over and made a couple of practice landings in those islands in Hawaii, you know. And so, we went ashore.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  We anchored out at Pearl Harbor, you know, and they gave us three or four hours leave off the ship, you know. So, there's a group of us together, we was down in town here in Hawaii. This is not Hawaii, though, is it?

• 1:28:47Jocko Willink?

  Close enough.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Anyway, we were all down there and one of the guys in my group was walking around and gawking at everything, you know, on the island. And this guy named Lucas, that was in my group when we was walking around, he looked at... He said, "There's my cousin over there." And so, we went across the street and it was...

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Uh, Lucas, his cousin, you know, what was his name?

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  Jack Lucas.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Jacqueline Lucas, you know. And so he stayed with us and walking around there and everything. And we said, we got to go back to ship. And so we went back to our ship and Jacqueline Lucas was still with us. And when he went aboard, we got aboard, he went in, checked in. He was on there about three days out. I said, uh, I was talking to the, the other Lucas, you know.

• 1:29:53Jocko Willink?

  So was he a civilian? Was Jack, was the cousin a civilian or was he another Marine or?

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  He was another Marine.

• 1:29:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Lucas was a Marine. And so he just went aboard with us. And, uh, and he was there for about three days. And I said, you better take your cousin over there and tell him that he's not aboard this ship where he's supposed to be with his outfit. He was gonna be a replacement in a first division. But he wound up in the fifth division. What was?

• 1:30:30Speaker 02

  Well, he, in the twenty-six Marines.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was in the twenty-six Marines with us. And, uh, he, uh, he got hurt. He threw himself on a hand grenade and, and, or two hand grenades and saved him. His buddies, you know. And he got the Congressional Medal of Honor. You've probably seen or heard of him, cause he. And, uh, he was from, uh, Mississippi. I forget the name of the town. And I just, I, I was going over to see this guy. And he was in Georgia.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  And I, uh, went through that town and, and I got past it. So I said, I'm gonna go back and see old Lucas. And so I turned around, as I turned around, just going back, I was heard on the radio that he had passed away during the night. And that was the last I seen or heard of him, you know.

• 1:31:42Jocko Willink?

  Then, um, so you finished up your training in Hawaii. Now, is your next stop gonna be Iwo?

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, Iwo, yeah.

• 1:31:51Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys, did you guys know, did the intelligence that you got, paint the picture that Iwo was gonna be a really, really hard fight? Did you guys know that going in?

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  No, we didn't. We had no idea what was, just another island. But when I, when it got light and I looked around, saw all those battleships and, and just...

• 1:32:15Jocko Willink?

  So you weren't any more nervous for that? You just thought, I'm gonna go do what I've done the last few times?

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  No, I was scared to death.

• 1:32:24Jocko Willink?

  Fair enough.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  Well, you know, Odd Fares and Captain Hall, I was their runner and I was telling them before I'd ever seen any action. I said, I don't know how it'll be when we see action. I'm afraid I'll be scared to death and everything. And Captain Hall said, that's what you wanna be? You wanna be scared to death? He said, you should be scared half to death. And, you know, there's no meaning to that, being scared half to death. Cause I was just scared half to death a lot of times, you know, and I'm still alive.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  But they said, when you're scared, when fear takes over, it dumps adrenaline into your brain, into your muscles and you react and everything. And I know that's what happened to me. Because when I got hurt, I was, I knew what was going on. I knew what I had to do, but I was still just scared as I could be. And that's what saved me, I think.

• 1:33:35Jocko Willink?

  Um, did we already, did you already get, had you already been wounded at this point? Before you, were you wounded in any of the other, uh?

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Oh, no, uh-uh.

• 1:33:45Jocko Willink?

  So you're still, you're still as lucky as they come, right, this point?

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wasn't wounded at all. Now, Carver had been wounded before we hit Ewok. He'd been wounded at Guadalcanal. And, uh, he got, uh, that night that Barcelona was, uh, did his thing. And he was, oh, about thirty or forty yards from Barcelona on that line, you know? And a shell hit him, so they took him off. And he had, a lot of those guys got malaria. And he had malaria real bad, and they took him to Australia.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  And there was a ship there going back, and he was so with that, that wound that that, they hadn't been able to treat it because the Navy took off with all the, the, uh, medical gear and everything. So he actually didn't see a doctor until he got back to Australia. And, uh, so he went back, got back to the States, and he wouldn't take a discharge. And they sent a corpsman back with him, you know? He was put on a merchant ship, it was going back, it wasn't a Navy ship, it's all the merchant ship was going back.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  And that corpsman said, "Carver, they're, they're sending you home to die. And, uh, they're gonna discharge you." And, uh, so Carver, he said he didn't know whether to believe that corpsman or not, but they sent him up to, uh, Tillamook, Oregon. And, uh, there's, they had a balloon stationed up, uh, you know, they put big balloons up in the area with, on cables, you know, to protect areas, you know, uh, military areas that the Japanese would... Probably if they tried to invade us.

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  So he got in with Cross, Bill Cross up there at that time. And a guy named Horsefly, he's Horsefly, I can't think of his name. But he's from Wichita Falls and we nicknamed him Horsefly. He was always talking about horses. Well, anyway. Uh, they were up there guarding a naval base at Tillamook, Oregon. And they was trying to get back through the, uh, Fleet Marines, you know. And they wouldn't send them. So they was doing things that they shouldn't be doing. They wrecked a Jeep and that was, that brought it to a head.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  And they said, you're going back there, fire up to a rifle company. So that's the way he got back in to rifle company.

• 1:36:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's, that's where you want those guys that are out wrecking Jeeps. Put them right back in a rifle company.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, uh, I'd, uh, that's when I was put in the hospital where the, the Chinese crud and, and lost, uh, contact with my outfit and so forth. And I wind up with, uh, uh, Nails Copeland in, uh, in the barracks over there that is nearly empty. And so, uh, I went over there and checked in. And, uh, uh, Copeland was the sergeant in charge. And he was the only guy in the whole barracks. And I said, where is everybody? He said, well, they just emptied out. We were waiting to fill up again.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  He said, just go down there and find a bunk anywhere in the end. I said, well, what room do you want me to be in? Well, the lower floor, they said, there're not three or four guys down there anyway. Just take any, any bunk you want, you know? So I fooled around there and ate supper and everything and, and got in, in the bunk, hung my uniform on the end of the bunk on a hanger and, uh,

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  And I was down to sleep. And about ten o'clock. Lights went on, all these guys were hollering and singing and everything right there. I said, "You guys knock it off and turn out that light." "Who said that, big boy?"

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  "Who said that?" "Well, I said, "I said, "I get those lights turned off." And here he comes over, "Where are you? Where are you?" I said, "What?" So he come down there, he was gonna fight me. So I jumped off that bunk, I was mad enough to fight anybody. So here he come, he was not much bigger than I was, you know? Because he'd been hurt, you know, and everything. And he saw my uniform, and I had my ribbons on and everything. "Hey, you're a combat marine, welcome aboard."

• 1:39:12Speaker 01

  So he said, "Come on over here, we got some, uh, uh, some sandwiches and some beer and so forth. Come on over here and join us." I said, "I'll eat a sandwich, so I don't drink beer." And so that's how I met Cobber Dart. And we'd go on liberty together. And they liked their booze, and, uh, and Hawsefly liked his booze too, and he, he drank pretty heavily. So it wound up, I didn't drink, so I happened to take care of Hawsefly. And they had dates, and he and Cross, Cobber and Cross would go off to somewhere.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  And I had to take, uh, care of Hawsefly. Well, we, we were out in Olive Grove or someplace here in...

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Close to San Diego, I guess. Well, it's closer to LA, I guess. And I couldn't find a taxi or anything, and I didn't know what to do. Couldn't find a place to stay with him and everything. So there was an all night movie going on, showing porno films. So we went in there and we both went to sleep, woke up the next morning, films were still showing, so I got him out. We finally got home. I was back to camp and that was my experience with Hawesfly.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Hawesfly was killed at EWO and Cobber and Cross were wounded too. Let's see, in the book I told how Cobber was wounded, didn't I?

• 1:41:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you did. That's a...

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  You wanna hear that now?

• 1:41:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you hit the beach at, I mean, let's just take it from you. You hit the beach at EWO.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:14Jocko Willink?

  And, I mean, you weren't, the landing at EWO, relative to some of the other landings that the Marine Corps had done at this point, was, I mean, what was your, what was your...

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Well, before EWO, the Japanese always tried to stop us before we got to the beach. At EWO, they let us get on the beach, and that's when they really opened up with everything they had, you know, and that was more effective than trying to stop us before we got to the beach. Well, we were on the beach and a lot of officers and NCOs were killed, you know, off the beach. So here we are, laying on the beach, and it sloped, and guys were laying down on that thing,

• 1:42:04Speaker 01

  and there were mortars, those mortars were coming in like raindrops. When they'd hit, and it explodes, it goes out and up, you know. Well, we was all laying on the ground, and that was just inviting those shells to come in close to us, you know, and so Cobber said, "We gotta get off this, off this beach." So we started trying to get... Holler getting off the beach, run. So we ran, man, I ran and and first thing they all on the beach on the other side. That's when I realized we were on a little island. And so we got over there and

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  and I heard that Hall had been killed on the boat and I cried. Because I loved that man. I mean, he was treating me like a son and Otte Farris had been wounded too. But Otte

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  Hall got off right on the beach in one of those shells that got him. And I was, we got over there and and it wasn't, they weren't firing in that area. So we spread out waiting for somebody to come or to take over, you know? We didn't know what to do. So I was laying there propped up against a deal. And I heard a shot real close to us and everything. I looked around and and I couldn't see anybody shooting, you know? And then I looked over about twenty or thirty yards, there's a piece of tin raised up.

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  And a rifle come out, shot some, made another shot. So I told the guy over next to me, and he had a riot gun, we called him. It was a twelve gauge shotgun with just a few balls in the

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  cartridge, you know? I said, come on, follow me. He said, where are we going? I said, we're going to go over and have some fun. So I said, there's a sniper in this hole under this piece of tin. I'm going to raise that up and you just shoot, just shoot in there. And so I raised it up and a chap looked up there and that guy cut loose with that shotgun about that far. What a mess that was. That guy had never seen action before with, had a shotgun. He threw up.

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  And, but that's, that's the first real thing I did on, on the EWO.

• 1:44:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, a couple of things that I wanted to just real quick ask about. One of them was, you you describe in the book how the ground was literally hot from like the lava and it was uncomfortable to lie down on.

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  Oh, you couldn't lay on it, it's called it. It's the steam heat coming from up to that volcanic ash. You know, they keep talking about the sands of evil gym. That wasn't sand, that was it was ash, volcanic ash. It was like BB size deals. And it's

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  not sand.

• 1:45:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it was literally too hot to lay down on in a lot of places.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  But it was too cold.

• 1:45:30Jocko Willink?

  I was, I was gonna say, you know, in the military, we always get the worst of both worlds.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:35Jocko Willink?

  And you, and it was too cold at night.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it was cold at night. You needed something over you. So we'd lay something on the deck, you know, box or cardboard or extra blankets or something just to get off the and then you put a poncho over and that would hold the heat to keep you warm, but it wouldn't scald you in it, no.

• 1:45:58Jocko Willink?

  Yes. And then what about the, uh, the, uh, razor, razor grass? I've heard about that.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  Let me tell you when I heard about. Uh, we heard about the razor grass, uh,

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  MacArthur decided he wanted to use paratroopers in the jungles of New Guinea. And so they decided to send in a regiment. I forget how many are sent in. And they took pictures of where they wanted to land in the jungles, you know, and they found this place that was grassed in area and uh, no trees in that part there and so forth. Ideal place to land. So they jumped in there and it was that razor grass 12 feet high. And they had guys all cut up on it, ruined all the parachutes and just that grass was terrible. And, uh,

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  two of them were killed in the jump and, and a couple of them landed in the jungle, you know, and were hurt bad, badly. And then they told us two guys were never heard of or seen again. They never. Then they had to march out. Because you couldn't land a plane in the jungle to take them out. And it took them six weeks to get back to their base. And they had to be, you know, fed along the way. They'd have to parachute stuff into them and so forth. So that's when the Marine Corps said, hey, we're not using these paratroopers in the jungle. So that's when they brought us back to the States and put us in there.

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  Now, how long was it after you guys landed that John Basalone was killed?

• 1:47:53Speaker 01

  Well, as well as I can remember, I guess it's the first day.

• 1:47:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:47:58Speaker 01

  Because I was, I had to go back and get some TNT and, and the guy was with me. He had to get some napalm, you know, he was a flamethrower. And we saw this group of guys over there and, and a guy giving the last rites to someone. What's going on here? And this guy said, Basalone was just killed. And it was a sad moment for me because he was like all the other Marines. He was a hero to us all, you know? And that was bad.

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  And then I heard that Hall had been killed. And I cried again. I cried unashamedly, you know, because they meant a lot to me, you know?

• 1:48:56Speaker 01

  And I just found out where Hall was buried. You know, he didn't evidently didn't have a family. I mean, a wife or anything like that.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  And I couldn't find out where he, where he was, you know, where he'd been buried or anything.

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  And this girl that found this thing for me, she was, her name was.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  Liberty Phillips. And I'd been trying for twenty years to find this guy, you know, and what happened to him and everything. And I told her my problem. And three days she had this magazine on the way. She found out through the computer, you know, what it was all about. And I was amazed at that.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  And then she found out that Hall had been buried in...

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  Well, at first, at Eagle, they got so many dead that the hospital ships couldn't take them and so forth. So they had to do something with the bodies so they began to bury them there. And they stayed there temporarily for several years and brought them back to the States. And he was buried at... No one had cleaned his body. He was buried here in... I mean, in Hawaii at the Punch Bowl, I think it was. And I'm gonna go there someday to visit his grave because possibility, you know... I found a second cousin to him. He's a...

• 1:50:49Speaker 01

  He works with the Symphony Orchestra in Cincinnati. And he didn't... He never met Raoul, but he just heard his second cousin. And he didn't know anything about kin folks or anything to him.

• 1:51:12Jocko Willink?

  You know, as we progress through the battle here, you wrote about it, obviously, here in the book. And I think this description here is...

• 1:51:29Jocko Willink?

  Worth reading. So, I'm gonna go, you're out on patrol. You're trying to get back to friendly lines, daylight's coming. And, here we go, I brought up the rear when we took off in a low-moving dog trot. Cause light's coming, so you're, you're trying to make some movement here. We had not gone far when, from within five yards of my five o'clock position, I heard the bolt-action on a machine gun declaring the operator had braced it for firing. I'd heard this harbinger of death before, it stood as one of the hard lessons I'd learned in the jungles during the Solomon Islands campaigns. I recognized this telling sound of a Nambo, a Japanese light machine gun.

• 1:52:14Jocko Willink?

  This deadly weapon could spit out a clip of twenty cartridges in less than two heartbeats. Damn, I hated that nasty little twenty-five caliber weapon. At that first metallic sound, I shouted, "Hit the deck!" I landed on the ground at the same instant that a shirt, short burst of gunfire ripped through the air just inches above my head. I lay so flat on the deck that I could have crawled under a snake's belly. For Joe, the guy in front of me, luck had played out. He had taken, luck had played out. He had taken one or more slugs in the back. The other man ran helter-skelter toward our lines. His headlong dash grabbed the attention of the Nambo, and it continued to spit short

• 1:52:57Jocko Willink?

  bursts at this hustling marine. While this happened, the adrenaline and sense of reasoning within me worked in tandem, each feeding off each other. My situation was critical. I lay in the Japs backyard, my position exposed with only my pistol to defend myself. I took a quick peek at the inner body seven or eight yards ahead of me. Seeing no movement, I reckoned Joe had bought the farm. He carried an M1 rifle. To survive this untenable fix, I needed that rifle and a position of concealment. I knew that the namboos clip held twenty cartridges and the gunner fired in short bursts of three to four bullets. I figured he had only a burst or two left.

• 1:53:39Jocko Willink?

  He had one. When the clip played out, it ejected. The sharp tinny sound singled me to move, and move I did. I came out of that prone position like a bolt of lightning. Man, in that span of eight yards, I could have beaten Jesse Owens. My plan was simple. I'd race by, pick up, pick up on a dead run and try and make it to the line of boulders about twenty yards beyond. Damn. About a third, on about the third step, I saw Joe move slightly. The plan had changed. I opted to take him instead. When I got there, I grabbed the back of his collar. Utter panic poured raw adrenaline into my engines. I could never

• 1:54:23Jocko Willink?

  have dragged him that far or fast otherwise. The rocks as a safe haven no longer stood as an option. We couldn't make it that far out. Out of gut-wrenching terror, I reacted on impulse, not rooted in thought or reasoning. With Joe now in tow, we moved into a slight depression in the volcanic ash. No more than a shallow dip, it had to do as duty, it had to do duty as shelter for the time being. What a poor place to defend, and it offered very little in way of protection, but nothing else showed any more promise. By instinct, I hit the deck. My timing proved perfect. The rattling peel of gunfire passed within

• 1:55:05Jocko Willink?

  inches of our heads. Well, I figured, we were safe for the time being. Then problems began to escalate faster than I could resolve them. So, this is a bad situation you're in right now. Man. And then you look down and you see there's a thermite grenade that's, that's, that he's got on his gear, that Joe has on his gear, and it looks like it's been shot or it's been hit with a glancing bullet, and it looks like that thing could go off at any time as well. Not only that, you got the nambo being reloaded. So, from there, you, I think you stick Joe with some, some, uh...

• 1:55:47Jocko Willink?

  Some morphine and you kind of hold station. How long were you in that little depression in volcanic ash waiting?

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  Well, they reestimated it was about six and a half hours that we were in that

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  little deflation in the volcanic ash. And it was kind of a slope and then a depression and that the bullets would hit at that above us, you know, that was as low as you could get, you know, and we were safe at that as long as we stayed down.

• 1:56:27Jocko Willink?

  And on top of all that, you start receiving friendly fire from mortars. Mortars start going off.

• 1:56:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, they were. That was just normal, you know, they were throwing a lot of mortar shells in there and and the ships were firing the heavy stuff, but not right in that area where we were.

• 1:56:51Jocko Willink?

  What do you think what prevented the Japanese from maneuvering on you? Were you just holding that position to the best of your ability, throwing grenades and whatnot?

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the only thing we could do. I couldn't move, so I just had to hope that they didn't come. And then when they gave out hope, well, I was prepared. I had the pistol. I was gonna make sure that we didn't take, wouldn't take them prisoner, you know, because

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  at Villa La Vela, we were on a patrol and a platoon of us and we met some Japs and one guy was hurt and we didn't know he was hurt. We fell back a little bit and then we realized that this guy, his name was Joe something, I can't think of his last name now, and the Japs had captured him and we dug in for the night and

• 1:58:06Speaker 01

  They began to torture him. And, uh, and he would, you know, screaming and everything. And our officers said, "Don't move, don't move, we can't help him. They're just trying to get you in position. Don't move, don't move," and everything. We sit there and listen to him into the night. And in the morning, when it got light, you know, we went in after him. And he was tied to the base of a tree with his penis cut off, and it was in his mouth. And they'd taken strips of skin and pulled it off that long. Just really tortured him, something terrible.

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  And, uh, we, when I, we found out that they were Royal Manchurian Marines. You know, Japanese had, and Manchuria had a colony up there, and they were bigger than the regular Japanese. They might have been Chinese, and, uh, but, uh, they were big guys. And, uh, and we got, got back at them. There were about ten of them, I guess, in that group. And we finally caught up with them.

• 1:59:32Speaker 01

  But that poor guy suffered, and it was hard not to jump up and go, but that's what they wanted us to do, you know, to come out of those holes. Because once we got in a foxhole at night, we were not supposed to move for any reason. If you had to use the toilet, well, you dug a hole in your hole. And, uh, and those holes in the jungles would, water would seep in them overnight, and you're constantly using your, uh, tin cup to pick water out and throw it out. Fighting in the jungles was, was terrible.

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  It was really terrible, you know, the conditions were bad, uh, the mosquitoes were bad, just jungle fighting. I hated that. And you didn't get that at Iwo Jima, you know, I don't remember seeing a mosquito or having a mosquito bite in, uh, at Iwo Jima.

• 2:00:41Jocko Willink?

  And with that in your mind, there's no way that you were gonna get captured?

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  No, I wasn't gonna be, I wasn't gonna be captured.

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  I was ready to, uh, take Joe out and myself because I didn't want him to suffer like that either.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  And of course, I didn't tell him that I was gonna shoot him, but I was ready to do it.

• 2:01:12Jocko Willink?

  You spend the whole day there, and I'm going back to the book, as the long, lonely hours ticked away, thoughts ran the gauntlet of my mind. Early in the wait, I resolved to go down fighting. I considered surrender out of the question and never an option. I had heard and seen the results of the enemy's treatment of prisoners. No words can describe the pain and suffering the Japs laid on a person before permitting him to die. While the political correctness might, these days might frown on calling them Japs, I'll call them anything I please. My buddies and I have that right. We have earned it.

• 2:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Yes, when a showdown came, I intended to see that the enemy didn't take me or the Marine lying next to me alive. As my longest day neared the halfway point, through the din of battle, I heard my name called. Damn. The voice of Bull Fisher, my platoon sergeant, boomed over the other noise. He had brought in a combat patrol to find us.

• 2:02:17Jocko Willink?

  Now you, you kinda link up and he's trying to figure out where the Nambo is, Nambo is located. "We see you, now throw." "I did," and the Nambo answered, giving away its position. "The platoon laid down a withering barrage of small arms fire, putting the Nambo Company out of business. Peter Adam got to me first, along with several other guys. He directed them to put Joe on the stretcher and sent them on their way. He said, "He, he said, "Let's get you out of here, I'll cover you." I got set to make a run for it, but as an afterthought, I told Pete that I wanted to pick up Joe's rifle. I took one last look at the shallow defilade in the sands of Iwo Jima. What a lifesaver, the dearest plot of ground that I ever occupied. Joe and I owed our lives to it."

• 2:03:03Jocko Willink?

  In a state of rage, Pete said, "We would have found you sooner, but Ski came back a blithering idiot. He refused to go back to show us the way to you guys. He reported you dead." Some of the guys wanted to shoot him. The Bull sent him under guard to be taken off the island.

• 2:03:25Jocko Willink?

  And now I'm gonna, uh, read a, an award citation. "The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Silver Star Medal to Private First Class Thiel F. Harvey, Jr., United States Marine Corps, for services set forth in this following citation: "For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity while serving with Company C, 1st Battalion, 26 Marines, 5th Marine Division, in action against enemy Japanese forces on Iwo Jima Volcano Islands, 20 February 1945." "When his three-man patrol, which was sent out to establish contact with the adjoining company, was ambushed by heavy fire from an enemy machine gun and one of the men was

• 2:04:08Jocko Willink?

  seriously wounded, Private First Class Harvey dragged the fallen Marine under heavy fire to the shelter of a nearby hole." Remaining with the wounded man while his companion went for aid, he held off the hostile forces with his rifle and hand grenades until the arrival of the rescue party. Then exposing himself to enemy fire and directing accurate heavy fire on the Japanese position, he successfully covered the evacuation of the casualty. By his initiative, courage, and unselfish devotion to duty, he undoubtedly saved the life of his comrade and upheld the highest traditions of United States Naval Service.

• 2:04:49Jocko Willink?

  For the President John Sullivan, Secretary of the Navy. Don't really know what to say after reading that, sir.

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  Oh, well, that was a long day for me, but I didn't think I needed a reward. I was just doing what Marines are taught to do, you know? And I was surprised when they pinned a medal on me.

• 2:05:24Jocko Willink?

  You know, you talked a little bit earlier about what it was like at night, and I thought this was a really good section of the book. Here's the way we handled the nights on the front line. Once darkness set in, everyone went to his foxhole. Orders said no one left the hole for any reason. As I pointed out, we seated the night to the enemy. From caves and tunnels within our lines and units, these adversaries infiltrated our positions. They sought to come into our holes and kill with knives, bayonets, or guns. Some simply moved in close enough to toss in a hand grenade if they found the occupants on the alert for them. So we declared open season on anyone moving around above ground.

• 2:06:08Jocko Willink?

  To combat this type of warfare, each foxhole comprised more or less a mini fortress within itself. The man on watch with weapon ready, sat near the top of the hole so he had a panoramic view of his surroundings. This proved vital, as the deadly nocturnal infiltrators came in from all directions. While on watch, you had to stay mentally alert, clear-headed and responsive to any movement near your position. A moving shadow in the night presented a target to challenge with gunfire. I had the first two-hour watch. When tired, sleepy, hungry, scared, lonesome and homesick, a two-hour watch seems like an eternity. The constant booming of incoming and outgoing cannon blast filled the night air.

• 2:06:51Jocko Willink?

  Intermingled with the ear-splitting blasts, came the prevailing rattle of machine gun and rifle fire. Interwoven with the blare and the clamor of these machines of war, you heard desperate human utterances, filled with all the emotions that life allows. When your watch ends, the night calls on you to sleep. Sheer debilitating exhaustion will put you to sleep, usually a restless, troubled slumber.

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna continue on. In the deep of the night, after my second round of Sentinel Duty, a staccato of pistol fire at point-blank range startled me awake. I leaped to my feet at full alert. I could see Massia, crouched up beyond the dividing ridge, and a hoarse whisper I asked, "What's up?" He answered, "We have a visitor. Did you get him?" "I don't think so." "Where?" "On your side."

• 2:07:47Jocko Willink?

  Then I heard it. The dreaded sound of metal striking the wooden stock of a rifle. A Japanese grenade activates by whacking its firing pin against a solid object. This whack ignites a fuse that burns for seven seconds before detonation. Beyond the rim of my hole, hidden in the darkness, an enemy soldier had to drop on me. I had no options or defense for the inevitable. Then I saw it coming, in a looping arc toward me, a harbinger of death. The burning fuse gave off a radiant sparkling light, like a kid's sparkler on the 4th of July.

• 2:08:26Jocko Willink?

  I had to get it out of the hole before it exploded. With a sense of urgency enhanced by stark terror, I cupped both hands together. I caught it in mid-air and shoveled it over the rim of the hole out of harm's way.

• 2:08:41Jocko Willink?

  Sadly, the rapidly burning fuse did not give me time to scoop the missile back in the direction from whence it came. Massia had my pistol, else I could have scrambled to the top of the hole and possibly got some shots off at the adversary, but I could only crouch and wait.

• 2:08:59Jocko Willink?

  The interval didn't last long as out of the darkness came a notifying sound telling us they had armed another grenade and sent it on its way. However, this grenadier showed some smarts. He held the grenade for about two seconds before tossing it. This delay gave me only five seconds to do my thing. Out of anxiety, I reacted too quickly and bobbled it. As I hit the deck, I kicked it at the same time throwing up my arms instinctively to protect my chest and head. The kick and the explosion occurred simultaneously. My feet and legs took most of the shrapnel and volcanic ash hatched by the blast.

• 2:09:39Jocko Willink?

  I fell to my butt to a sitting position on the slanting side of the hole. I felt very little pain in my lower limbs, but my head throbbed with the mother of all headaches. I had a deafening ringing in my ears accompanied by excruciating pain. I couldn't feel or move my legs. I sat there stunned deaf and trying to recollect my notions. Another grenade landed within inches beside me. Without thought or reason, I hoisted my hips to come down on the glittering missile. This witless act placed the right cheek of my buttocks on the device. My weight pushed the grenade into the loose volcanic ash which absorbed a great deal of the energy generated by the blast.

• 2:10:25Jocko Willink?

  Now this one really laid some hurt on me. I knew that I had to get some help quick like or I might never leave that pit alive. Help, I realized, sat about twenty-five yards away. I couldn't stand or even feel my legs, so walking or even crawling exceeded my options. Dragging myself with my elbows and hands appeared my only option. Getting to the top and out of the hole took just about all my strength. Kind of like swimming upstream in the waters of a flood, of a river at flood stage. At the top of the hole, I lost it. I either fainted or, out of futility, acceded to death. I know not which.

• 2:11:09Jocko Willink?

  Lying there in that state of oblivion, an ethereal entity began to take form in my mind's vision. Out of this ghostly apparition, I came face to face with the voice of my mother. She commanded, "Sonny, you wake up and get to those who can help you. Don't you dare give up. We all love you and need, and you need to return to us." And then my former football coach, Joe Coleman, appeared. And he said, "Harvey, you sorry little shit, get off your dead ass and move out.

• 2:11:52Jocko Willink?

  There's hell to pay, and you gotta pay it. I ain't, I ain't a having none of your quitting. Now hustle, else I'm kicking your skinny butt." When the old coach spoke, it came out as demanding commands. You listened and you reacted. You know, I reached deep inside myself and find the strength and power to drag my failing body the last few yards to help and safety. Thanks, Coach Joe. At the brink of the hole, I came to a halt to alert those inside of my presence. Before exposing myself to possible friendly fire, I called out, "Sam, this is Harvey and I'm hurt bad. I'm coming in. Now don't shoot."

• 2:12:43Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:12:46Jocko Willink?

  Three grenades. Thrown at you in your hole.

• 2:12:51Speaker 01

  Fear saved me.

• 2:12:56Jocko Willink?

  You were able to throw the first one back.

• 2:12:59Speaker 01

  Well, I just kind of shoveled it back. I didn't actually catch it. I just shoveled it out. It just struck my hand. I got it out of the hole completely. But not where I should have. I wanted it to go back toward the guy that had thrown it. But that didn't happen.

• 2:13:19Jocko Willink?

  And then the second one, you bobble it a little bit, lands at your feet.

• 2:13:25Speaker 01

  Yes, it landed at my feet. I kicked it. It kicked back. Took me out of the game.

• 2:13:37Jocko Willink?

  How many days, this was six or seven days into the battle that this happened?

• 2:13:43Speaker 01

  The ninth night.

• 2:13:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:13:45Speaker 01

  That was the same night that my buddy Lee Darch was wounded and so forth.

• 2:13:51Jocko Willink?

  And you were going to tell that story? About how he got wounded?

• 2:13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:56Jocko Willink?

  Which is, I mean, it's in the book. It's crazy.

• 2:14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:03Jocko Willink?

  You want to tell us how he, how he? Explained that situation to you?

• 2:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll tell you. He.

• 2:14:13Speaker 01

  He was a good Marine. I mean, when the chips were down, he played the game. He was put out front.

• 2:14:22Speaker 01

  He was a scout sniper. That was his designation. And he had in the hole with him. A young guy that had never been in action before, Danny Cruel. And Danny was a.

• 2:14:40Speaker 01

  B A R man. B A R, that's a Browning Automatic Rifle. So there in the hole, Carver's in his poncho. Getting a rest and Danny was supposed to be on watch.

• 2:14:57Speaker 01

  Well, uh,

• 2:15:00Speaker 01

  Cobre was sound asleep and he was awakened by a kind of a gasp,

• 2:15:08Speaker 01

  cry out, you know, and he rose the poncho edge real slow like look, and he saw that a Jap had straddled Danny Krul and had cut his throat. Well, Cobre had his Kbar knife

• 2:15:26Speaker 01

  right there about beside him, stuck in the thing, so he took the knife and was able to get the Jap in the, in the back and took him out of the picture. But there were two other Japs in the hole and they didn't know that Cobre was under that poncho and he didn't know that there was in the, so he

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  got to his knees, turned and those Japs began to bayonet him. So they got him in the chest, got one lung, they got him in the chest three times and he had his arms up to protect himself. And one Jap stuck his, his bayonet through his forearm here, came out here, went through this muscle here, out here.

• 2:16:18Speaker 01

  And the other Japs put the same hurt on this, on his left side. So here he is, flexing his muscle, they can't drag the, their bayonets out because when he flexed the muscle, it tied him up. And so he's struggling there. Well, a guy back up on the side of the hill figured, he saw this action figure that Cobre and Danny Krul had had it. So he throws a hand grenade down there. And it didn't go in the hole, but it must have done some damage to the, uh,

• 2:16:59Speaker 01

  guys that, uh, the bayonet, Japanese, you know.

• 2:17:06Speaker 01

  Well, the Japanese were scared off, so they left, scrambled out of the hole, and Cobber was able to get his arms divorced from the bayonets. And he was, took Danny Cruel's B A R and shot those two Japs as he ran down the hill. And he was awarded the Silver Star for that, he deserved it. Well, as I told you before, Cobber loved his beer. When he hit the island, he had fourteen cans of beer. Well, on that ninth night left,

• 2:17:48Speaker 01

  on the ninth night, when both of us were hurt, he had only eight cans of beer left. Well, they finally get to Cobber and get him on a stretcher and they're carrying him back. Now, this is in the dark of the night. And they get him on the stretcher and they're taking him to the rear for help and everything. And he's having trouble because blood is forming in his mouth, his nose, and so forth. But he's able to tell the guys, I tell you, I forget the sergeant that was carrying him right there. But he said, "When you guys get back,

• 2:18:31Speaker 01

  there's beer in my backpack." Ploppy drop him. They run back there, got the beer and drank it while they're still in the hole. Come back, they can't find Darch. It's dark, and he's calling out to them. And he can't be heard because he had so much blood in his mouth and everything. So, he laid there until dawn until it got light enough to find him. Well, he loves to tell this story when he gets around a bunch of guys at the U S O and at the American Legion

• 2:19:16Speaker 01

  and the Veterans of Foreign Wires. And I'll take him over those from the hospital. I'll take him over, and he tells that story. He said, "This is my buddy. He nearly got me killed."

• 2:19:29Speaker 01

  Did not tell the true story, you know. He nearly got himself killed. And. He was a character and I loved that guy. He was really a guy.

• 2:19:44Jocko Willink?

  And I guess the lesson to be learned there is Marines love their beer.

• 2:19:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. They love their beer.

• 2:19:54Jocko Willink?

  Now, you get, and you already seen the flag be raised.

• 2:19:59Speaker 01

  Well, I think that was raised about the third day there, I guess. It was somewhere like that. But I was on the far side of the island on the other beach. I think I literally did that earlier tonight. Well, anyway. Uh. Let's see, that's how that was happening. Oh. I was working, there was a big cliff there. And, and there was a pillbox on the side of that other beach. You know, we ran to that other beach over there.

• 2:20:39Speaker 01

  Well, there's a pillbox there and it was, they had. Uh, uh. Nambo, I guess, was firing at those ships that were sitting out there. They were small boats and everything. Well, we're sitting up there and, and this pillbox is on the side of this sloping hill down to the, down to the beach, you know. And so they loaded me on a rope to put a shape charge on the top of that pillbox, you know, is concrete. So they lowered me down and I put a shape charge on that and that didn't phase that the stuff.

• 2:21:24Speaker 01

  So they pulled, pulled me back up. And then a guy was with us, radioed that.

• 2:21:36Speaker 01

  Oh, that little ship out there, let's see, is a landing craft, empty, LCI. And they had a twin barrel, forty millimeter deal up there. And they began to fire in there out there. And they just pumping, they were bringing these clips with four of those shells on it, putting them up there. And this guy would fire, and then another guy would pull him off, and they'd get, and they was laughing and whooping it up. And they finally just drilled a hole in that thing, that pillbox just exploded. We was up our chair, and every chair, and on the thing, just like.

• 2:22:20Speaker 01

  And later on, that day, we'd come up to a cliff, a hill thing, and there was a big door over a cave on the side of that cliff. And it was heavy with wood and metal and so forth. So I had to use, I was gonna use TNT to blast it in. So I put the TNT, I put a whole pack on a pole, and I was carrying it.

• 2:23:02Speaker 01

  And I was gonna come up the side there, and the guys were protecting me, you know, around, and the Japs that came out to meet me and everything. So I'm slipping up there, and I have my pistol that my mom had sent me. I had that in my right hand, and I had this charge of TNT on a pole. And I was slipping up on that thing from the side, and I was gonna put that over there and put a sharp fuse on it and let it blow it out. Well, as I was walking up there...

• 2:23:42Speaker 01

  I jumped, come running from around a rock right there and he had a bandit come charging at me and I took a pistol and shot him about three times in the belly. And that's the only time I had ever knew that I'd killed. That was my kill right there, nobody fired. Cause other times when we'd see a job, there'd maybe be four or five of us firing at the same time, you know, so you couldn't claim. But that was my kill. They all cheered me back over here. And so I set off that TNT and it didn't phase that door at all.

• 2:24:22Speaker 01

  And so as I was coming back and we were looking at that guy's rifle and he was out of bullets, the one that I'd shot, you know. And so about that time, I heard a cheer. Man, they cheered you just like somebody made a touchdown, you know. And I stepped back, looked up there and there that flag had just been raised. And I was about, oh, about 50 yards, I guess, from the base of that volcanic, volcano, that Cerro Bocchi. And, and I thought, man, the war is over right there. We've won right there.

• 2:25:05Speaker 01

  But it went on for, for another 30, 30 days, you know. But Ara Hayes was one of the guys that lifted that thing and I knew him. And of course, at one time I thought I was the only guy on the island that didn't help raise that flag, cause everybody was saying I was one of those guys that raised the flag.

• 2:25:33Jocko Willink?

  And that was one of the last things you saw as you, before you got evacuated out. I know you, you talk about in the book, you had him turn your stretcher so you could see the flag before you left.

• 2:25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:47Jocko Willink?

  Before you're medically evacuated.

• 2:25:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I was hurt, Lee, Darch and I were both hurt the same night, the night, the night. But there was some.

• 2:26:02Speaker 01

  A discussion about that we were hurt the third night or something, was it the third night?

• 2:26:08Speaker 02

  That's a, that's just poor reporting.

• 2:26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, anyway, uh, he was hurt the same night I was and, and, uh,

• 2:26:22Speaker 01

  I was taken out to, uh, put on, well, I wound up in a, uh, long ditch that they just used a bulldozer and that, uh, and the volcanic ass just dug a hole there and it was about a hundred yards long and it was just lined with guys on stretcher and the guys was working on them and, uh, I woke up and, uh, I'd been doped up, you know, and I woke up and I knew somebody was working over me and, uh, it got to my boots and I wanted my boots. I was proud of those boots, my paratrooper boots, you know?

• 2:27:08Speaker 01

  And he said, "Oh, one of them's no good" and then I said, "I wanna make them be fixed" and I was, I was nearly in tears, you know, because I was, I was hurt and I was under the influence of, uh, morphine and stuff like that. So I said, "I know, I want my boots, I want my boots." And so he took them off and I was laying on my stomach and I hugged those boots right here, pulled them up to me, 'cause I wasn't gonna lose my boots, I was so proud of them. And then, uh, I went out and the next thing I know, I'm being put on a, uh, a board.

• 2:27:55Speaker 01

  I was in a LST, uh, uh, a, uh, below an LST. And they were gonna take me off that board with, uh, four other guys with a platform on cable. They were gonna pull, they started pulling up and one of those, uh, stretchers fell off. It was metal, uh, uh, farmed and, uh, chicken wire on the bottom of it because it was a metal stretcher. And that went to the thing. And there were about twelve sailors on the, on the Higgins boat and on the LST.

• 2:28:38Speaker 01

  Man, they dove in there trying to get to that guy, but he just went down so fast and it just wasn't, wasn't able to save him. And so they pulled me around to the front, or the rest of us around, there was about four or five of us still on, on there. So they pulled us around and they opened those doors on the LST and let the ramp down. And that boat just went up. Uh, the Higgins boat just went up there and they took us off, took us up on the top deck, pulled alongside the USS Ozark.

• 2:29:17Speaker 01

  Now, that's a mountain, so the, uh, uh, supply ships, uh, and troop trench, uh, ports were named after mountains. So the LS, uh, the USS, uh, Ozark, that's where I was taken up there. And I was on the deck, it was raining and, uh, and a doctor was going through and picking them out. And he got to me and said, he said, "Take this guy in first, take him right on in." And I said, "I wanted to see the flag." And he said, "Well, he's up front right there."

• 2:29:58Speaker 01

  And just like a miracle, that ship slid around on anchor, cause the seas was really rough that day and it was raining and everything. But all of a sudden, there was, uh... Shafts of light and coming, light coming through the clouds. And you could see that flag up there, right there. And I cried. And then they took me down there and I still had my boots. And the doctor, Dr. Anderson, he said, "Take him on in there right quick, right there." And so went in there and they put me up on a table. I still had my boots and a corpsman tried to take my boots.

• 2:30:43Speaker 01

  And I wouldn't give him. "Oh, you don't take my boots, you're not, don't take my boots." And Dr. Anderson said, "Let him keep his boots." Well, the next thing I know, I'm in a, in a room about this big. And it's in the room where the ship's crew lived. That's where they had their bunks in there. So I'm on a bunk that's about four or five feet high. Uh, here and then another bunk below. But up there above, I could reach, there was pipes going through there, uh, through the book head up here. So I reach up there.

• 2:31:25Speaker 01

  Now, I'm under the influence of something that should never have been given to me. It wound up that it was, I was allergic to it. So I know what I'm doing, but I can't keep from doing it. So I grabbed that pipe and pulled myself off the bunk. And I was going hand over hand to my boots. I was going for my boots. I was desperate, you know? I was crying out, I was calling for my boots and everything. I looked back on it, I thought I was crazy, should have been crazy or something. Well, anyway, I get to a door.

• 2:32:07Speaker 01

  And above that door, the pipes went through the

• 2:32:12Speaker 01

  the bulkhead up there. And so I reached up and then I was going to the other room. And I lost it. I fell on the deck. And

• 2:32:25Speaker 01

  and I don't know what happened, but I was on the deck. But I wound up in a big room. There's a big area on this ship. It was lit up. And there was all kinds of cots all around here. And the guy was laying on it and everything. Well, I wake up. And I'm thirsty. I've got to use, uh, I've got to do a bowel movement. And I was real miserable. So I hollered real loud, corpsman. There was no corpsman. And I didn't have any needles in me, you know, uh, feeding me, you know, uh, all that stuff. And so I hollered.

• 2:33:09Speaker 01

  And all these guys, they had head wounds and bandages on their head, you know. They all hollered and everything. And I was like, what's going on? So I lay there and there was a guy next to me. And of course, his head is here and my head is over here. And I could see, he was looking up at the ceiling. I said, hey, mate, where are the corpsmans here? And he didn't answer me. And I got real mad about him. I said, let me know what's going on here. So I hollered real loud again. And all these guys began hollering and screaming and everything. And I was shaking my head mad and everything, hungry and, and just miserable.

• 2:33:53Speaker 01

  And so I gave up. And, uh, and I laid there for a while. Well, I heard a door open. I looked up. It over here is about thirty yards, I guess, from me. In this big room. Well, there was a truck or, or something over there parked. And they use those called tanks and trucks and things, those ships, I tell you. But this room is well lit. And all these guys are just laying on, uh, cots, you know. Well, I heard this door slam. And I looked up and it's Dr. Anderson, the guy that operated on me.

• 2:34:36Speaker 01

  So I holler real loud, "Dr. Anderson." And all these guys began to holler and scream at me and everything. And he walked on down there and he just kinda shook his head and kept walking, you know. And, uh, and then, man, I knew I was in trouble. I needed help, you know. I said, "I'm gonna watch that door. If he comes through again, I'm gonna..." He walked and went out the other door on the left side. So I, uh, waited. And sure enough, about thirty minutes or something like that, I don't know. I heard this door open and hear Dr. Anderson comes in.

• 2:35:16Speaker 01

  So I'm smart. I'm not gonna holler and let these other guys fade me out. So I began waving. I began waving. He was walking, kept walking right there. Then I said, and I had to holler, so I hollered again, "Dr. Anderson." And, uh, all these guys began to holler. And then he stopped and kinda shook his head. And I was waving at this time. And so he comes over there. He said, "Well, Harvey, what are you doing down here?" I said, "I don't know." He said, "I've been looking two days for you. And I just presumed you'd been buried at sea."

• 2:35:58Speaker 01

  And, uh, he said, "You don't know how you got down here?" And I said, "No, I don't know how I got down here." So he said, "I'll go get help. Now, don't go anywhere." And I said, "I'm not going. I'm gonna wait for him." While I was waiting for him, there was a group of about twelve guys came in. And I could tell they were doctors and corpsmen and everything. They started over here and they'd come to a thing, a guy would... It'd be two guys that put their, uh... They had stethoscopes on. They'd put on these guys that were laying there. And sometime they'd just shake their head and those corpsmen would take them off

• 2:36:42Speaker 01

  and put them on a, uh, uh...

• 2:36:47Speaker 01

  A stretcher and take him away. And they was working along there and God was hoping that Doctor Anderson would get back. And these guys would come to one guy right there and then they'd shake him off and leave him there and going around. So.

• 2:37:09Speaker 01

  Doctor Anderson came back down there while these guys going. I said, Doctor, what are these guys doing? They're taking some of these guys out. He said, Harvey.

• 2:37:22Speaker 01

  These guys, we, there's nothing we can do to help them. They have head injuries, brain injuries, and they're brain dead right now. He said, there's no hope for them. We can't do anything for them. So we're burying most of them at sea. And I said, uh, I said, what was I doing down here? And he said, I don't know how in the world they got you down here. Then I told them that I'd, what I'd done, you know? And they didn't know what to do with me, so they just put me down there with those guys. And so he said, you wait here. And I said, I'll wait here.

• 2:38:03Speaker 01

  So he went up and came back with, with four corpsmen with him. And they put me on a, on a stretcher and take me over to the door. And, uh, that doctor, uh, he got down on, dropped down on one knee and these guys were working. I said, Doctor, you can't help these guys in here? He said, no, we can't help them. There's nothing we can do. They're in God's hands. And I said, well, I guess I was in God's hand too for a while. He said, I guess so. So said, we're gonna pull into Guam and we will be taking you off.

• 2:38:47Speaker 01

  You'll be taken back to Hawaii and so forth. And so sure enough, in about an hour, they took me off the ship. Doctor Anderson came down and, and I thanked him and I guess he saved my life.

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  And then they took me to I A. The Heights, Pearl Harbor. And that's where I was.

• 2:39:16Speaker 01

  I was in a full body cast up to here. All the way down, they had split. Each leg had a cast over it, too. On one piece. And they put me in the room with this guy here.

• 2:39:34Jocko Willink?

  Now, when you, before we talk about that, I know you brought a photograph today. A big photograph of, you know, very kind of typical picture that you see of a bunch of military guys. This is a picture of Marines, clearly. And this picture right here is a picture of?

• 2:39:59Speaker 01

  The First Battalion, Sea Company, Twenty-Sixth Marines, Fifth Division.

• 2:40:06Jocko Willink?

  And this is your, in this photograph, this is your company that you went into Iwo Jima. How many people are in this picture?

• 2:40:13Speaker 01

  Two hundred and forty-three.

• 2:40:16Speaker 01

  Two, at the end of the battle, after thirty-six days, I think, fourteen of these guys walked off the island. Rest of them were wounded, carried off, or died. Lot of them were buried at sea. Because they had six hospital ships. And they filled up real fast. And they had to go to Guam and Saipan to be taken off, flown back to Hawaii.

• 2:40:51Jocko Willink?

  Two hundred and forty-three started and fourteen walked off the island.

• 2:40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:56Jocko Willink?

  Unbelievable.

• 2:40:58Speaker 01

  And I've had this picture for years and one of them hanging in, I used to hang over my bed and every night I would look at these guys, you know. And then I moved in into my living room right there and I could watch it. I've looked at it every day because I don't want to forget these guys. I won't forget them. And I can remember their faces, but it's hard for me to still put names to a lot of them. I like Darts, I remember him. Peter Adam, I remember him. Officers, I remember him.

• 2:41:39Speaker 01

  And, uh, and just 14 guys walked off of that island and war is really costly in lives and everything. And I'm not going to ever forget these guys.

• 2:42:01Jocko Willink?

  We won't either, sir.

• 2:42:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:05Jocko Willink?

  When you're in Guam now, you're, you're basically in a medical ward, right?

• 2:42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Aida Heights was the name of the hospital there. It overlooks Pearl Harbor. It was built there after the war started, you know. And so I'm in this, uh...

• 2:42:26Jocko Willink?

  And you get reunited with, with, uh, COBRA at this point, right?

• 2:42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:32Jocko Willink?

  You guys couldn't get away from each other.

• 2:42:34Speaker 01

  Let me digress here. I was put into a room in that hospital, Aida Heights in Hawaii. I was put in this room with another bed and a guy in that bed. And he had a head bandage.

• 2:42:53Speaker 01

  Over him right there. And I was laying next to him. And I couldn't see him. And he couldn't, wouldn't talk to me and everything. So I didn't say anything to him and everything. And, uh, and the nurse would come in there and they'd take him off and bring him back after a while. And, uh, and he never talked and he'd never say anything. I gave up trying to talk to him and so forth. Well, I'm laying there feeling sorry for myself. And, uh, I hear somebody, Fred Harvey, are you in this ward?

• 2:43:37Speaker 01

  Just loud, you know? And I recognized Carver's voice. He has a voice that'd carry you for a mile and everything. So I'm raised up. I'm in this room. It's about this big here, you know? I'm in the bed here and this other guy's in the bed over here. And I raised up enough and I could see Carver down there. And he's hollering, kept hollering, Fred Harvey. This little nurse ran down there and got in his face and been, he said, you just keep your mouth shut. I mean, she really read him off, you know? Well, I'm looking for my buddy.

• 2:44:18Speaker 01

  They said, he, he said, she said, he's in this ward, but he's in a room on the end down here. And so she pointed, laid him down there. And he came in there and there was Carver, man, I was glad. Now, he's in a, he bandaged up like this, you know, his arms and everything, you know, that had taken those bayonets. And he was pushing Bill Cross, who's in a wheelchair with one of his legs missing. And Carver was pushing him like this and, and Bill was sitting there directing him and everything. So.

• 2:45:04Speaker 01

  Cover was standing, they're standing at the door. And he said, what did he got, why Harvey and this guy standing here in this little room by themselves? They said, well, because of the injuries, you know, and everything. Why aren't you out here with the other Marines? Well, she went over and closed the door. But she didn't close it all, I could hear him talk right there. She said, well, your buddy over here, we don't know what to do with him. He's got injuries and

• 2:45:41Speaker 01

  his legs are blood clotted and so forth. So we don't know what to do for him. And, and this guy over here, he's, he's lost his face. He can't communicate and he wants to die. And God, that kind of scared me, you know, and everything.

• 2:46:03Speaker 01

  So Cover said, put him out here with the other Marines right there. And so we went up there and, and the nurses area right here is about halfway down the hall. That hall, that ward must have been seventy yards long anyway. And beds are on each side and nurses beds is right here in the middle. Well, they put me over here and put

• 2:46:33Speaker 01

  this guy over here on the right side.

• 2:46:37Speaker 01

  And Cover said, well, take those bandages off of his face.

• 2:46:43Speaker 01

  And the nurse said, well, he doesn't want them taken off. They said, take them off right there. People are gonna have to see him, he's gonna have to learn to live with it. And so, well, I'd seen it. When they doctored him and I looked over there and they took it. This was all gone. You could see the back of his neck back there, his backbone and everything. Only thing on his face was his eyes and he had his ears. And

• 2:47:15Speaker 01

  And no way they can feed him, you know, there's no way he could eat anything. And they just fed him like they were feeding me too, you know, just intravenously right there. And they put him over and that guy, Carver would talk to him, you know, and said, "Take that bandages off, you're gonna have to live without right there. So you're with Marines and we all understand and love you and everything." And so he took off the bandages and left them off. And all these Marines would come by and glance at him and then pat him, you know, and so forth.

• 2:47:58Speaker 01

  And he, he, spirits rose, you know. And of course, you couldn't tell us that, you know, but you could tell by his actions and everything. So Carver, this is a, a plastic surgery ward that we're on. And the guy that headed up was named, I can't think of his name right now. But he was an All-American football player in Wisconsin. And he was a big, massive guy with big hands and broad shoulders. Here he was doing delicate operations on, on guys, you know, plastic surgery.

• 2:48:43Speaker 01

  And so, uh, they, they didn't know what they could do with me because of blood clots. They couldn't start operating on me because both my legs had blood clots all up into my stomach and so forth. But Carver told me later that, that nurse had told him that there was no way that I'd live through it. And I'd been in there about a week. And, and Carver talked to this doctor. What was his name? He was an All-American football player.

• 2:49:24Speaker 01

  Well, anyway, he said, "How you gonna fix it?" He said, "Well, we're just gonna have to build him a new face. But we can't start on him until he gets strong enough to take it, you know, and so forth." And, uh...

• 2:49:43Speaker 01

  And so Carver said, "Well, do you have something that..." She said, "Yeah, we got a little booklet over here that has six facial features on it." And Carver said, "Let me see it." So he looked at six pages with six facial features on it. So Carver gave it to Harold here, and he took him to each bed,

• 2:50:12Speaker 01

  and had a note on there written, "Pick out the best-looking face in this booklet." So they all voted on which face he wanted, you know. And this guy, you know, he was, of course, he was happy to be out with the other guys and everything, and he would stay in a wheelchair a lot and go from place to place. Guys would come over and talk to him, and if he had anything to say, you know, he'd write it out and so forth. And then they started operating on him. And they didn't know what to do with me. I'm still laying there in my cast.

• 2:50:54Speaker 01

  And then, one day, the little nurse came up. She's from Austin, Texas, and I can't recall her name right now. But she was sixty-five years old at that time, and they were trying to discharge her, and she wouldn't let them discharge her. She said, "I'm gonna stay in here until this war is completely over." And she did.

• 2:51:21Speaker 01

  Well, she came out and told me, "We think we might have found a way to help you." And she told me, she said, "There's a guy had an item in the New England Medical Journal," or something like that.

• 2:51:43Speaker 01

  And he was in New Orleans. His name was Faust.

• 2:51:50Speaker 01

  And I remember the word Faust because there's an opera written about Dr. Faust, you know. So I've remembered that name all along. And so she told the commander of that hospital, you know, that she wanted that guy to come over and look at me. So they put him on, got a plane, flew him over there and they looked at me, he said, "Well, we can't do anything until we operate on him." And he said, "I have a way, I think I might be able to help you." Well, they came in there and they took a machine, a vibrator or something,

• 2:52:32Speaker 01

  and cut the top of that cast off of me and set it to the side. And then they put me on a table on my stomach. And Dr. Faust put six needles along my spine. And you know what a football or basketball needle looks like? Needle about that long and little head on it, you know, screw into a pump. Well, anyway, that's the way that, those things looked, you know. Those needles were built like that. They weren't, weren't the real thing. But that's what they were. Well, they stuck those along my spine.

• 2:53:15Speaker 01

  And then he put some kind of fluid in there. And I thought they'd put gasoline on me and set me afire. God, I, it burned. I thought I was on fire. I said, "Hey, put, I'm, I was, I thought they was trying to kill me, really." And they said, "No, that's just a symptom. They're not burning up and everything." And, and so they gave me about six of those treatments. And my legs began to clear up, dissolved in the blood clots.

• 2:53:58Speaker 01

  And then the doctor started operating on, on me. And it was plastic surgery and.

• 2:54:09Speaker 01

  They, uh, they took skin off my legs and put it on my, on my butt and everything. And, and then they took a ti- picture of me and it looked like my legs and my buttocks had been worked over by a guy that, uh, made tattoos on guy. Looked like a doctor had, a tattoo artist had fouled up and this thing. My whole backside was just black. And it was that volcanic ash and, uh, and, uh, so, uh,

• 2:54:52Speaker 01

  they got me, got me up, got me fixed my legs, beginning to thaw out, you know, the thing. And, uh, it was gonna take me, they came in and asked me where I wanted to be taken to hospital. And the closest one to my hometown was Corpus Christi and that was nearly nine hundred miles. And so this doctor said, hey, uh, Harvey, how about coming to New Orleans? We have a hospital there, naval hospital there, and I can look after you more. And I said, well, that's great.

• 2:55:32Speaker 01

  So I was in, in the hos- sent down there. And Carver had been sent before I, they, he had left and gone to the east coast. And so they, uh, they put me on a plane and flew me. To California. Well, that plane was a constellation and that's what it was used for was a hospital thing. And we got nearly halfway home and that plane developed problems. And so here I am with a bunch of other guys that were, well, I was the only one that was on a stretcher.

• 2:56:12Speaker 01

  And so the nurse came in there and put things around me and gave instructions to all these other guys. Cause I was expecting that plane to go down. And so they decided it was one to the point of no return. So they turned around, took us back to Honolulu. And all these hula girls met us on there, thought we'd been coming in for a vacation. And they put on a show for us. And then they fixed the plane and finally got me over to, oh, what's that town across the bay they have a football team there? San Francisco, what is the name of that? Alameda?

• 2:56:57Speaker 01

  Alameda, yeah. And that's where they landed me right there. And they put me out on the tarmac and I had my hands over my eyes like that. The sun was shining in right there. And somebody kicked me and said, "You little bastard, where in the hell have you been?" "I look up in this copper." Well, he had been taken to another hospital further down the coast, about twenty, thirty miles from there. And he had been hitchhiking for the last three weeks, hitchhiking over every day to meeting these planes that were bringing guys in. He finally found me.

• 2:57:42Speaker 01

  And so they, they took me over there and I, I, I can bring up the name of that hospital he was in.

• 2:57:54Speaker 01

  Well, I can't, so that ain't part of it. So the, uh, that doctor wanted me to be brought back to, uh, New Orleans. Well, and Cobber was still there in California when I left. Well, I was, uh, and I got in pretty good shape, you know, I could walk around with a cane and crutches at times. And I heard that there was a farm out, outside, over across the river in, uh, in Algiers, Louisiana.

• 2:58:38Speaker 01

  And the Navy had an ammunition dump over there on the river, across the river. And they let Marines go over there and rehab, rehab, uh, you know, get better and they'd take care of things on the farm. And so I heard about it and I begged them to let me go over there. So they let me go over there with a stipulation that I would take care of chickens because I couldn't take care of anything else. And so here I went over and I was taking care of chickens. And they had these white-legged chickens and great facilities for them to live on.

• 2:59:22Speaker 01

  They never got on the ground, they was on wire, uh, uh, chicken wire, you know? And they had, uh, oats or something, or planted seeds thrown in there. And these chickens would walk around and eat that green as it come up high enough. Well, I would gather up the eggs and take them in and, uh, doing that, you know? Well, the guy that was taking care of that got real mad because that was a cushy job, but this is the only job I could do, you know? And so I was taking care of the chickens, you know, and feeling sorry for myself and, and everything.

• 3:00:06Speaker 01

  Well, I had a bucket full of eggs and I'd take them over there and then take them up the naval base, uh, uh...

• 3:00:17Speaker 01

  Eating place, you know, and they took care of all their eggs and so forth. Well, anyway, I was out there, I had a bunch of that and I had a walking on a using a cane and and I heard the horn sounded right there and the guy was screaming and I look up and it's Lee Darch, he's sitting up on the cab of the truck and they were hauling slop from the cafeteria, you know, and it was covered, he had found me. Then he told this story, well, he was shipped to an area up on the east coast.

• 3:01:01Speaker 01

  Do you remember what that place was?

• 3:01:03Jocko Willink?

  I don't.

• 3:01:03Speaker 01

  Well, anyway, he was taken up there and he was discharged, so he tried to buy a motorcycle and he called my mother and found out where I was stationed. And he said, don't tell Harvey where I'm at and everything. And so he couldn't buy a motorcycle, he didn't have enough money, so he hitchhiked down there. So he hitchhiked down there and it took him three days to get down there and he got his uniform was soiled, you know, and he'd been in it for about six days and so and he was

• 3:01:46Speaker 01

  one of these guys that man had had to be dressed completely. Well, in that picture, we tell him that he was the only Marine that ever invaded with pressed denderies and all that.

• 3:02:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the picture in the book where it shows him from behind, you can see the beer in his gas mask thing and you can also see that his uniform is pressed and starched.

• 3:02:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And they had his initials, I mean, his name stenciled on his spade, you know, and tensioned to, well, he hit.

• 3:02:28Speaker 01

  It took him six dri- uh, six days to, uh, no, six trips, uh, rides to get down there. And that was about three or four days it took him to get from the east coast down to New Orleans. Well, he gets to New Orleans and he didn't know where, where I'm, uh, he just knew I was on a naval base down there. So he had no idea what to do and everything. So he goes to a tailor shop, cleaning place, you know, and that guy cleaned his uniform, you know, and, and pressed it and everything for him because he had, he needed to look good all the time.

• 3:03:10Speaker 01

  So he, uh, was walking around having no idea what to do. So he saw a Red Cross car parked in front of a building right there, and it was a Red Cross office right there. So he walked over and looked and there's a lady, the lady's sitting at the desk. So he has his discharge papers and everything and then he left his sea bag out, outside. So he walked in there, he looked around, you know, like he was being followed, got up closest to him and said, "I've got to find a man, I'm on a special mission and I've got to find him, you know, it's, uh, it's a real critical thing." She said, "I'll help you."

• 3:03:53Speaker 01

  She got fired up and she found out that, uh, I was over there at Aida Heights at that naval ammunition base over there. And so she said, "I'll take you over there." So she closes up his office, her office, and, and Cobber's holding his discharge papers on there and looks around, you know, gets his sea bag, puts it on there, and she goes down through town, you know, and running stoplights because she's using that thing that had big red crosses on it, you know. And she gets him down there to the, uh, a ferry boat.

• 3:04:37Speaker 01

  That's where they had a bridge built across there. So, um, and she had called over to base and they had a, a, a van over to meet him, you know, and everything. And, uh, so he pulls the car up and that, uh, that ferry boat was waiting on him. And so, Cobre got out and he hugged that lady and she had tears in her eyes.

• 3:05:04Jocko Willink?

  She did her part for the country.

• 3:05:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:05:08Jocko Willink?

  Top secret mission.

• 3:05:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he gets over there and this guy, this, and this thing, uh, deal, he looks around, he thought should be an admiral or something, you know, and the, the PFC. And so, this, uh, his car had a siren on it, so he turned on his siren to run him, uh, down to, uh, uh, the town, uh, uh, uh, the little town across, uh, uh, and got him to the base and the, they, he going to, uh, going, that guy was going to take him to the, to

• 3:05:51Speaker 01

  the headquarters office. He said, oh, no, I can't stop there, I've got to go. And he said, I'll get down there some way. So he's standing there and you see this truck coming around the corner and it, it just coming out and it had two barrels of slop from the mess hall on it. And they, they tell him, said, hang on there. And he said, I'm not getting up out of thing, a million flyers around and everything. And so, he, uh, there's two guys in the truck. So they put him, uh, they take the, uh, a sea bag and put it up there between them. And then he gets up on the hood and sits on the cab right there.

• 3:06:36Speaker 01

  And when they get close to that farm where I was. They began to honk their horn and I was, I was stomping the uh hood of that truck, hollering my name and everything. And I was so happy to see him, I cried. He came, he came over and uh, well, I was really glad to see him, you know. It's just like losing your best friend, you know, and finding him in the end. And so, here I am and I take him over there to the sergeants who's in charge of us on that farm. That uh, that owner of that farm, when the war started,

• 3:07:21Speaker 01

  donated his farm lands to be used to build ammunition dumps, you know. They were the dump or, or mounds where they dig in the si- in the ground and, and had that thing. There's about fifty of those mounds along there. And so, this sergeant, God, I can't think of the name, is in charge of the farm, you know, because that guy wanted his farm, farm back just like it was

• 3:07:53Speaker 01

  after the war was over. And they had to take care of the, the at- horses on there and the pigs and, well, the hogs. And uh, take care of the house and everything. Well, they had, they was using the house and there were six other Marines in there beside this sergeant that was, that was in charge of them. So uh, when I took him over there, sergeant, sergeant was working on a wheel on a uh, a tractor and I said, "Hey, sergeant, this is Lee Dartsch, he's my buddy." And he just got into town, can he, can he stay here? And he said, "Yeah, he can stay here."

• 3:08:37Speaker 01

  So uh, he took us in to his desk right there and he gives him a, a uh, a card, you know, to get them in and out of the guy that had already left. So here Cobber's got a, another name and he's on base without, not even in the Marine Corps anymore. And so, uh, uh, we, he was gonna help me with the chickens.

• 3:09:10Speaker 01

  And so we take over the chickens and this guy, big old redheaded guy, he was the guy that had the chicken job, which is the best job on the farm. He had to give it up. He was mad at me. He wouldn't even speak to me. So here Cobber was and on base with a with a card, you know, to let him get in and off on the base. And he was just another Marine. He just didn't draw any pay, you know. And so we stayed down there for quite a while.

• 3:09:51Speaker 01

  And we decided that the chickens, some of those chickens weren't doing their job and Cobber said, we need to cull out the non-layers. So he called a a vet, veterinarian, and asked him how you decided which one was laid. And he said, well, put two fingers at this part and everything. We got the wrong information and we took it wrong. And we killed a bunch of those layers and it cut the production of eggs out. We got in trouble. They brought us,

• 3:10:33Speaker 01

  they brought me in because Cobber couldn't go before the man, you know. And they were going to send me back to the hospital and really mad. And this sergeant was out there. He said, well, let them stay and I'll put them on the hogs. And so they put us on the hogs. That's the worst job on the deal.

• 3:10:56Jocko Willink?

  And how long were you down there at the hospital in total or at the farm in total?

• 3:11:02Speaker 01

  Oh, probably three months.

• 3:11:05Jocko Willink?

  And then that was, that was the end of your career. You got discharged at the end of that.

• 3:11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, from the hospital. Yeah, I was discharged from the hospital and so I was free to go.

• 3:11:19Speaker 01

  Why don't you read that out loud because that introduces Coburn and what they, we meant to each other.

• 3:11:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a picture of you two and I guess this is the, the day you were discharged.

• 3:11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, they took us out, uh, this lieutenant and this sergeant drove us out to the edge of town. And, uh, I drank a Coca-Cola and Cobra had a beer and both these guys saluted us and, uh, and that sergeant had been in charge, he was in there in tears. He had to see us go. And so.

• 3:11:58Jocko Willink?

  It says, "Our faces are bathed in sadness. We had just been medically discharged from the Marine Corps. The Corps, which had been our home, was now just a memory. We loved the Marines and thought we'd always serve the flag, but circumstances intervened and left us homeless. We now faced an uncertain future. However, it didn't mark the end of the friendship that had been forged and nurtured by war. Like brothers, we have remained close ever since."

• 3:12:33Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 3:12:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and there's great detail in, in the book, um, that, that you've got to tell even more stories and, and it's, it's great to hear those and I definitely, anybody, um, should get this book and, and it's available right now. Um, and, uh, I gotta say, there's two versions of the book. And the version that you want to order, we'll have it on our website so that people will get the right one. It's called Hell Yes, I Do It Again by T. Fred Harvey and it's got a blue cover. And the other version of it has a similar title. Just get this one, um, that's in blue. What made you decide to write the book?

• 3:13:15Speaker 01

  Well, people wanted to hear the story right there and I'd taken a lot of notes and so I decided to write a book, but it's kinda hard for me because I had, I quit high school because I couldn't pass English.

• 3:13:33Jocko Willink?

  Well, you did a great job because the book and, you know, reading the book, it's a, it's a great read. And then, you know, you spent, you spent, once you retired, you said you coached football for forty-five years and worked with kids and you still, we're telling me, you still work out every day.

• 3:13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:50Jocko Willink?

  You still get after it every day.

• 3:13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I have weights in my apartment and I work out on the weights and I have one of the running machines where you pump and pedal and, and I stay in shape and eat the right kind of food and, and I wanted to die happy, so I'm saying in good health.

• 3:14:20Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. You know, I wanted to, I want to close out by reading one, one last little piece of the book and, you know, I'll just do it. And, and this is, this is, you, you went to visit Iwo Jima. You went back to the island in the early eighties and this is something that you wrote as you were leaving the island after you went and visited the place where you had fought and where you lost so many friends. And the book says, "For each and every wave that has crashed upon these shores since

• 3:15:01Jocko Willink?

  those days so long ago, a mother has shed a tear for a son who fought and died here. Many of those mothers at this time have gone to be with their sons. Here, pride took over. You screamed loudly and ran straight ahead. Its notoriety was written in blood and courage. Absent are the sounds of battle that emphasized the human voice and all its emotions against a backdrop of roaring cannons and small arms fire."

• 3:15:41Jocko Willink?

  The engines of war are silent now.

• 3:15:47Jocko Willink?

  Iwo Jima today offers an innocuous view in stark contrast to what took place here in the winter of 1945.

• 3:15:57Jocko Willink?

  The hurtful and injurious qualities that it supported those days so long ago no longer are in evidence. Yes, the engines of war are silent here, but man has cranked them up many times since in other lands.

• 3:16:14Jocko Willink?

  Iwo today still offers a landscape that features a rugged coarseness. Everything that took place on this spot emphasized strength, power, and courage.

• 3:16:26Jocko Willink?

  Time and its helpmates, wind and rain, have erased the scars of war on the landscape, but still it presents a paradox with a rugged beauty about it.

• 3:16:38Jocko Willink?

  Time, on the contrary, has not healed the scars left on the hearts and bodies of those who fought here.

• 3:16:48Jocko Willink?

  There's nothing so brutal as when men point their brutality toward each other.

• 3:16:55Jocko Willink?

  My plane is rising to take me back to Japan. I look down on Iwo as a new day is having its beginning. Loneliness and sadness have crept aboard.

• 3:17:07Jocko Willink?

  My heart holds many unsaid words as I can't put into words the fragments of my thoughts and feelings.

• 3:17:17Jocko Willink?

  Thoughts and feelings that I can't ignore, a pain of unreasoning desolation.

• 3:17:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm engulfed by a gray veil of sadness. I leave with mixed emotions. I'm glad that I came while I regretting the return.

• 3:17:35Jocko Willink?

  Though great distances separate me from this island, the thought of it is always just a heartbeat away.

• 3:17:44Jocko Willink?

  I'm determined not to ever forget the men I marched among.

• 3:17:49Jocko Willink?

  All my tears will not ever wash away the memories.

• 3:17:57Jocko Willink?

  Now, in the twilight of my years, all I've got are my yesterdays and a whole arsenal of memories. And hell, yes, I'd do it again. Once a Marine, always a Marine. That wraps up the book, sir. I don't know if you have any thing else you want to say before we wrap this up?

• 3:18:32Speaker 01

  I think you've just said it for me. That's...I love the Marines and I know that at some time in the future, I will join those Marines and we will march through eternity with each other. It'll be a homecoming. Thank you.

• 3:18:58Jocko Willink?

  Thank you, sir. And, um, obviously, thanks for coming on. More important, thanks for your service and your sacrifice for our great nation.

• 3:19:11Speaker 01

  Well, it was an honor to serve you and this great country of ours. And God bless us all.

• 3:19:20Jocko Willink?

  Thank you, sir. Thanks for coming on.

• 3:19:23Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 3:19:24Jocko Willink?

  And Mr. T. Fred Harvey has left the building, and that was pretty, pretty incredible. And thanks to everyone of you listeners for giving us the opportunity to speak to these incredible heroes and share their stories.

• 3:19:48Jocko Willink?

  And none of this would be possible without your support. So if you do want to support this podcast, and actually at the same time, you can support yourself.

• 3:20:00Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 3:20:01Jocko Willink?

  That's kind of the way we've set things up.

• 3:20:02Speaker 03

  That's how.

• 3:20:03Jocko Willink?

  Echo, perhaps you could show us the way to properly support.

• 3:20:08Speaker 03

  Sure, of course, be happy to. All right, first way is

• 3:20:13Speaker 03

  originmaine.com. Okay, so origin, that's the company, our company, Pete Roberts Company in Maine. So it's called originmaine.com. Anyway, this is where, okay, first, first thing you want to do to support yourself, very important, by the way,

• 3:20:30Speaker 03

  joint supplements, krill oil. That's to me an everyday supple, actually both, all of these are, most of these everyday supplements, I think.

• 3:20:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's some that might not necessarily be classified as everyday supplements.

• 3:20:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, like the milk may not be everyday.

• 3:20:43Jocko Willink?

  Well, I beg to differ.

• 3:20:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like maybe could, maybe couldn't.

• 3:20:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, I guess not. I would say the one that, I would say discipline, you don't need that every day.

• 3:20:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:20:55Jocko Willink?

  Straight up krill and joint, yeah.

• 3:20:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:20:58Jocko Willink?

  Joint warfare and krill oil, yeah, that's daily.

• 3:21:00Speaker 03

  So krill, super krill oil to be, not to split hairs, but Jaco's super krill oil is a krill oil supplement. And when people ask me still now, hey, there's fish oil, there's krill oil. What's better? Krill oil is better, not just because I like it better, it's factually better. This is why. Has more antioxidants.

• 3:21:17Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 3:21:18Speaker 03

  Better absorption, better meaning like numbers wise. And I can go into why, you want me to? I will.

• 3:21:24Jocko Willink?

  I'm not really sure, but.

• 3:21:26Speaker 03

  So the omega threes, the omega threes get attached to your phospholipids. As opposed to in krill, in fish oil, the omega threes get attached to the triglycerides. So.

• 3:21:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, there you have it, dude.

• 3:21:41Speaker 03

  That method of delivery delivers a higher percentage of the omega threes.

• 3:21:45Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 3:21:46Speaker 03

  Into your situation.

• 3:21:49Jocko Willink?

  Your science just stopped. You had limited science, but I still think, you know?

• 3:21:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, but you understand how it works now, though. See, if you know that as a fact, unless I'm lying, which I'm not, you know how it works as a fact, you see what I'm saying? It, there's a difference between me saying that.

• 3:22:05Jocko Willink?

  Let me tell you what I know.

• 3:22:06Speaker 03

  No, all right.

• 3:22:07Jocko Willink?

  You take it, you feel better, that's what I know.

• 3:22:09Speaker 03

  All right, see, that's, that's very unscientific. You'd be like, okay, I feel better.

• 3:22:13Jocko Willink?

  But, but, wait a second, honestly. If I came to you with a book and explain this to you technically, what would, what would have more weight? Me being like, hey, here's how this works with the phosphagenic materials moving through your membranes? Or if I was like, bro, you gotta try this because it, it works.

• 3:22:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:22:32Jocko Willink?

  Which one would carry more weight?

• 3:22:33Speaker 03

  With me, you, well, no, with me, I think the book.

• 3:22:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the book trumps chocolate.

• 3:22:40Speaker 03

  Only because the reason that you're making actually a really good point, in my opinion. The one, you know, the whole, it's like a social proof, right? Social proof, that's, that's like a real thing.

• 3:22:50Jocko Willink?

  But you started taking krill oil because I told you to.

• 3:22:53Speaker 03

  Because you, yeah.

• 3:22:53Jocko Willink?

  Despite everything that the book says. So I think you just, speaking of not telling the truth, I think you're just lying.

• 3:22:58Speaker 03

  I'm saying nah, well, you, you know what? You're absolutely right. And actually, I'll do you one better. Actually, you'll do yourself one better. You told me to take krill oil. I took krill oil. My father-in-law's been telling me, telling me to take krill oil for a decade. Literally one decade, no krill oil, not even one.

• 3:23:13Jocko Willink?

  Does he listen to the podcast? I hope not.

• 3:23:14Speaker 03

  I hope not, dude.

• 3:23:15Jocko Willink?

  Because otherwise you in trouble.

• 3:23:17Speaker 03

  Highly disappointed. Nonetheless, I'll tell you what it does. It keeps your joints healthy. Healthy joints are happy joints. As far as joints being happy goes.

• 3:23:27Jocko Willink?

  Listening to you in a little jingle.

• 3:23:28Speaker 03

  I'm just saying, it's true, bro, it's true. Anyway, uh, the, it's, yeah, this is one of those things where it's like, it's, it's like, it's a marked. When I say, it's not the kind of like, hey, I just feel better. It's, it's not that, that's real ambiguous in my opinion. When you're like, hey, I just feel better, you know, I just feel better. You're like, all right, bro, you know, like, there's a lot of things that can make you feel better. Like you get a good TV show on, that'll make you feel better. Technically, technically, technically for most people. That are not you, bro.

• 3:23:55Jocko Willink?

  No, bro.

• 3:23:56Speaker 03

  Nonetheless, you see, you see what I'm saying.

• 3:23:57Jocko Willink?

  When you watch a good, let's say a good TV show.

• 3:24:00Speaker 03

  Hawaii Five-O.

• 3:24:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you watch Hawaii Five-O?

• 3:24:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:24:03Jocko Willink?

  You're saying you, if I, I mean, I'm not going to speak for you. If I watch a TV program, the whole time I'm watching a good TV program, there's something nagging in the back of my mind that's saying like, you could be doing something else. You could be improving yourself.

• 3:24:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're right.

• 3:24:17Jocko Willink?

  You could be making progress somewhere, you could be. Prepping for a pot, you'd be doing another workout, you'd be swinging a kettlebell.

• 3:24:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:24:24Jocko Willink?

  I'm not sitting there going, oh, this show is so awesome. I feel so good about it. Am I right or wrong?

• 3:24:28Speaker 03

  You are right for yourself. I can see how you could think that.

• 3:24:31Jocko Willink?

  So there's times where you're watching a TV and you're pumped up, like saying you're, okay.

• 3:24:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:24:35Jocko Willink?

  That's cool.

• 3:24:35Speaker 03

  Well, if it was one of those things, well, here's the thing though.

• 3:24:37Jocko Willink?

  You still watch that TV program?

• 3:24:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, it wasn't on this week, this last week, because the season finale was last week. So, you know, we're off.

• 3:24:44Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if you still watch it after the incident.

• 3:24:46Speaker 03

  Bruh.

• 3:24:50Jocko Willink?

  The incident.

• 3:24:51Speaker 03

  Anyway, you, my point is if someone says it makes me feel better, better in the way they say it is a real general way, it's less compelling than them saying, like me, in my situation.

• 3:25:03Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 3:25:04Speaker 03

  I'm like, hey, when I woke up, freaking, I did like practice perfect form in getting up out of my bed for my back not to bother me super bad. To the point of it, I, me actually admitting that it's painful sometimes. Actually, it's not painful. It's just like, you know, you just kind of can't do it. And my daughter would jump on my back, all this stuff.

• 3:25:22Jocko Willink?

  Your back, it makes you talk like this?

• 3:25:26Speaker 03

  Sometimes, yeah. Anyway, take krill oil, boom, six days, a week later, boom, my dog jumping on my back, no problem. I fly out of bed, like I just warmed up.

• 3:25:35Jocko Willink?

  Now, what about joint warfare?

• 3:25:36Speaker 03

  Same deal. See, and here's the thing, I didn't look as much into the scientific part of joint warfare.

• 3:25:42Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of science, why don't you explain your arm injury before?

• 3:25:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:25:47Jocko Willink?

  Joint warfare, current.

• 3:25:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, so.

• 3:25:50Jocko Willink?

  Because this is pretty compelling, in my opinion.

• 3:25:53Speaker 03

  Very compelling, in my opinion too. So, so same deal, this is anecdotal situation where, okay, all right. Some of us may know, I tore my bicep tendon off the bone.

• 3:26:03Jocko Willink?

  Again.

• 3:26:04Speaker 03

  Again, the other side now.

• 3:26:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:26:06Speaker 03

  Hey man, it's that bicep life, you know, it happens. Anyway, so yeah, this was what, a few weeks ago?

• 3:26:12Jocko Willink?

  You're slightly proud.

• 3:26:14Speaker 03

  No.

• 3:26:14Jocko Willink?

  The way you explained to me.

• 3:26:16Speaker 03

  I thought I was proud of the joke.

• 3:26:18Jocko Willink?

  But you, the way you explained to me that because your biceps are so massive, it puts extra tension on the tendons and that's why they got torn. Even though you're explaining it like it's your hard done by, but the reality is you kind of got a big smile on your face all proud of the guns.

• 3:26:34Speaker 03

  Anyway, Brad, no.

• 3:26:37Speaker 03

  I'm proud of the joke.

• 3:26:38Jocko Willink?

  Okay, okay.

• 3:26:39Speaker 03

  Anyway.

• 3:26:40Jocko Willink?

  Is that real though?

• 3:26:42Speaker 03

  Oh, I think here's a more accurate way of putting it. So, yeah, so, okay, when you train biceps, right? Typically, typically, and some people, people train biceps there, but typically you don't go all the way down to straight. Like, no elbow mobility and then all the way up with a super heavyweight. You just can't do that heavyweight unless you train that way the whole time. So the-

• 3:27:03Jocko Willink?

  Cutting corners in training.

• 3:27:04Speaker 03

  I- in a way, you know, you can, you can call it that. And, and I dig it, you know, yeah, so.

• 3:27:11Speaker 03

  Is there cheating though, really?

• 3:27:12Jocko Willink?

  Cheat sets with Arnold back in the day. That was total 90s bodybuilding. That was all.

• 3:27:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, bro, that's real though. So, when you develop strength in your biceps with size and all that stuff, when you do develop the strength, the strength exists mainly on a certain part of the curve of the range of motion, right? So, but that strength is still there big time. Your biceps muscle are s- super strong. But when you extend it to this flat, you still kind of have that strength in the muscle, but down there, it's like, I don't know, it's like the stability of the structure just isn't as much. I don't know, this is me.

• 3:27:47Jocko Willink?

  Was your arm fully extended both?

• 3:27:49Speaker 03

  Both times. Both times, fully extended and me just.

• 3:27:53Jocko Willink?

  Just a little flex.

• 3:27:54Speaker 03

  Flex, flexing hard, yeah, just going too hard, you know? At the time, one was in a tournament, which obviously makes sense because you're

• 3:28:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:28:00Speaker 03

  Grooming after it. And the other time I was just got too excited, training with the training partner I haven't trained with for a long time.

• 3:28:06Jocko Willink?

  Training with Keeling, escalation.

• 3:28:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:28:08Jocko Willink?

  Fired up.

• 3:28:10Speaker 03

  We'll see, escalation, yeah. But anyway, nonetheless, tore off the bones, bad deal. It's not one of those deals where it's like, oh, I pulled my muscle or whatever. This is, so you gotta go in, they cut it open, whatever, they, they stretch it back down. They staple it, whatever, back to the bone. Actually, they drill in your bone. He told me this one. They drill in your bone, make little holes, and they staple it inside the hole. They, and they staple it up. Stitch you up. So, I got that less than a week ago, by the way. Less than a week, literally. And so I'm like, all right, I gotta, you know, I'm out of the game for a little bit. I gotta get back in as quick as I can. I up my dosage of joint warfare. Crital oil stayed the same. Joint warfare, uh, doubled. Actually, it didn't double, it almost doubled.

• 3:28:52Speaker 03

  I was taking two a day. Now I take three and in the morning and then two at night. Right, it's almost double. So. I do have a basic comparison because like you said, like we know I had the exact same injury, exact same injury on the other side. Same surgery, same everything. Nine years ago, by the way, I wasn't like I'm older now. So that's something too. So this recovery like given right now is like way quicker like this morning while I'm putting on, I'm putting on pants or gin pants. By the way, I literally forgot I had the injury just for a second. You know, you're just like doing it or whatever.

• 3:29:27Jocko Willink?

  And whoa, whoa, we're not even a week out.

• 3:29:28Speaker 03

  Not even a week. Yeah.

• 3:29:30Jocko Willink?

  Because you were laid up for a while.

• 3:29:32Speaker 03

  For the other one.

• 3:29:33Jocko Willink?

  The other one. Nine years ago and you were a young buck.

• 3:29:35Speaker 03

  Yep. Same exact injury.

• 3:29:37Jocko Willink?

  Jordan Werfer.

• 3:29:38Speaker 03

  Boom. Yeah. And nothing, nothing, nothing is different.

• 3:29:40Jocko Willink?

  To me, that is more compelling than you explaining the science behind it. I am not saying I don't believe the science. I'm saying I'm talking to you right now and I've seen this with my own eyes. So that's like, to me, it makes more sense. It doesn't make more sense. Yeah.

• 3:29:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. This is, yeah, it's, it's to me, I'm more surprised. Like my wife gets mad at me. It's like, you're injured, you're injured, you're gonna this and that because I'm just like cruising, took off the sling or whatever, cruising around lifting weights, not with this arm. I'm not getting nuts. Actually, I'm kind of doing pushups, like pushups on it. Um, but yeah, it's like, like there's no pain, nothing, no inflammation. Well, very little inflammation. Nonetheless, um, you, I think the like, what do you call it? Uh, the scientific kind of information versus the peer, um, the approval, you know, what do you call it? Period. It's called something. I said it earlier. Nonetheless, like if I tell you, uh, like, oh, this works for me and like legitimately,

• 3:30:37Speaker 03

  um, if you're a skeptic of the whole deal, like if you're like, I don't know if this works, then the scientific like stuff will be.

• 3:30:44Jocko Willink?

  Reason.

• 3:30:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:30:45Jocko Willink?

  If there's some reason for me to be telling you like to do something.

• 3:30:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, like go to a psychic or something.

• 3:30:51Jocko Willink?

  Then it's, then, yeah.

• 3:30:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Then I'll be like, no, but you're dumb for doing that. And then you see some scientific literature, then you're more compelled if it's solid.

• 3:30:59Jocko Willink?

  No, I, I read the scientific literature and obviously as we were putting it all together, it was like, all right, let's get the right stuff in there, which is stuff that I had used from other supplements in the past, but combine it all into one. There you go.

• 3:31:11Speaker 03

  Boom. All right. Jaco supplements. Also, speaking of which, discipline. This is the, the one you mentioned that you don't take every day.

• 3:31:18Jocko Willink?

  See, who does take it every day?

• 3:31:20Speaker 03

  Dave Burke.

• 3:31:20Jocko Willink?

  Dave Burke.

• 3:31:21Speaker 03

  Bill Dave. Hell, yeah. So which is kind of something, which is kind of something because Dave is one of those smart guys. Like Dave is kind of one of these guys who's like. He's an achiever, that guy. He met his brother, by the way.

• 3:31:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:31:33Speaker 03

  So, if he's doing it every day, there could be something to that. That's what I think. Another one of those.

• 3:31:38Jocko Willink?

  He, he, the way he talked to me about it, he like, got all crazy, like, big smile and was like, I got it on it. I was like, I take it at this time of night, that way I can wind down, it gets me all blah blah blah.

• 3:31:47Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 3:31:48Jocko Willink?

  I was like, dang, Dave.

• 3:31:49Speaker 03

  Dang, even the microdose of caffeine.

• 3:31:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, a little microdose before you go to bed.

• 3:31:52Speaker 03

  Well, he's probably used to the caffeine, that's why I saw.

• 3:31:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, no, he doesn't, he takes it far enough ahead of, when his family goes to bed.

• 3:31:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:31:58Jocko Willink?

  He's like, taking it, and then he gets a couple hours worth of good, solid output.

• 3:32:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:32:04Jocko Willink?

  And then.

• 3:32:05Speaker 03

  Brain output.

• 3:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:32:06Speaker 03

  Here's a weird thing about caffeine, just as a side note, bro, I've drank a coffee before and went to sleep. It's almost like the coffee put me to sleep.

• 3:32:14Jocko Willink?

  I'm not like that.

• 3:32:15Speaker 03

  No, cuz you don't drink caffeine.

• 3:32:17Jocko Willink?

  Because I don't drink a lot of caffeine.

• 3:32:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. Bro, if you drank a, like, a big coffee, like the one I drink, bro, you'd be.

• 3:32:23Jocko Willink?

  Like during the muster?

• 3:32:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:32:25Jocko Willink?

  Because we're getting limited sleep during the muster, even limited for my standards.

• 3:32:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:32:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I take caffeine. I mean, I take, I take, um, this right here, I take this right here, I take Jocko White Tea, and I take the discipline.

• 3:32:36Speaker 03

  But you just keep drinking it?

• 3:32:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I drink a lot of it.

• 3:32:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:32:40Jocko Willink?

  Because, you know, busy.

• 3:32:41Speaker 03

  But a coffee, you figure, what, fifteen per serving, milligrams, and then, so like, one of those things I was drinking, I don't know, not today, but the other day, is three hundred milligrams of caffeine.

• 3:32:51Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's just dumb.

• 3:32:52Speaker 03

  So that, if you sipped on that, like, over, you know, a two, three hour period, and just drank the whole thing, ultimately.

• 3:32:57Jocko Willink?

  Fired up.

• 3:32:58Speaker 03

  You will be fired up.

• 3:32:59Jocko Willink?

  No, there's times where I've drank, like, tons of Red Bull and just been like, giga giga giga giga giga, which is why I try to taper off the, the heavy caffeine.

• 3:33:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, you.

• 3:33:08Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 3:33:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:33:08Jocko Willink?

  Taper off the heavy caffeine, like, that's why I don't make beverages that have nine hundred milligrams of caffeine. Because it does, it doesn't, and you don't need that, you don't want that. You start getting, it starts, it starts having other effects, you start getting, like, you talk too much, right? You talk too much. Actually, speaking of talking too much.

• 3:33:29Jocko Willink?

  I just met someone that came to roll and they were like, oh yeah, you know, it's really good to meet you because I listen to podcasts. He's like, cool. And then we rolled and we talked a little bit and he's like, you're just like on the podcast. And I said, well, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's like, just we're hitting record as we discuss things. And then I said, probably the biggest difference between me on the podcast and me in real life is that in real life, I don't, in the podcast, I talk the whole time and in real life, I actually don't talk.

• 3:33:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:33:55Jocko Willink?

  Uh, very much. I talk a lot less, I should say. Yeah.

• 3:34:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:34:00Jocko Willink?

  Especially with people I don't know. With people I don't know, I'm not very conversational. When I know someone, I'm cool to talk, but.

• 3:34:05Speaker 03

  So if you put 200 milligrams of caffeine rather than 15, you'd be talking a lot. It's against your, your whole thing.

• 3:34:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, it'd be making me act out of character.

• 3:34:15Speaker 03

  Out of character, yeah.

• 3:34:16Jocko Willink?

  It'd be, it'd be influencing me in a negative way, in a negative way, I believe.

• 3:34:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:34:21Jocko Willink?

  But if you can just get in the zone.

• 3:34:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:34:23Jocko Willink?

  It sharpens the mind. I mean, caffeine's proven.

• 3:34:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:34:25Jocko Willink?

  Proven to sharpen you up.

• 3:34:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:34:28Jocko Willink?

  So anyways.

• 3:34:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. To each his own, you know, I think most people who like caffeine, they're like coffee and stuff like they like that.

• 3:34:34Jocko Willink?

  And that's what, that's one thing. If you, if you know, you might need more discipline, you might need more caffeine to get, feel it if you're not, if you're used to it, if you have a, what's that tolerance?

• 3:34:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. Low tolerance or something like, or if high tolerance. But yeah, and let's face it, discipline, Jocko Whitey, that's not why you drink it. You don't drink it because of the caffeine. That's not why that's, you know, though you'll include the caffeine.

• 3:34:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the caffeine definitely, it's a little microdose, get you, get you rocking it on.

• 3:34:59Speaker 03

  But yeah, that's good. Discipline, cognitive enhancement. That's what you drink it for, before you do some stuff. Stuff that needs brain output. That's, that's when you take it. That's what I take it. That's what good, that's when good deal Dave takes it. And that's when Jocko takes it. Also, milk. This is

• 3:35:18Speaker 03

  protein powder, but to call it protein powder is kind of diser- uh, disservice.

• 3:35:23Jocko Willink?

  Hmm, for sure.

• 3:35:24Speaker 03

  Cause it's just, we just go with milk.

• 3:35:26Jocko Willink?

  Milk.

• 3:35:26Speaker 03

  Here's the thing though, I don't, we don't want someone, I personally, I know, I'm speaking for myself, I don't want someone to hear, hey, milk, hey, what is that? Okay. Tastes good, all this stuff, but we're like, you know, there's a lot of stuff that tastes good. You will get good protein from milk.

• 3:35:39Jocko Willink?

  Hmm. Yes, you will.

• 3:35:41Speaker 03

  Very important to know that.

• 3:35:42Jocko Willink?

  And there's probiotics.

• 3:35:43Speaker 03

  Oh, no kidding. See, I didn't know that.

• 3:35:45Jocko Willink?

  And see what's good, what, doesn't probiotics, okay, maybe for you, it's not like this. When I hear probiotics, I always think like, oh, that's something that.

• 3:35:55Jocko Willink?

  You know, someone's like, oh, you gotta take your probiotics, right? Like, it's it's not something, you know, for me, it's like, oh, I'm gonna take protein, good.

• 3:36:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:36:02Jocko Willink?

  Probiotics, I'm not worried about that.

• 3:36:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:36:04Jocko Willink?

  But, so I never, I've taken them like a couple of times before, but there's probiotics in it. And so now I realize like, I feel good, like my gut feels good. So maybe there's something to that probiotic activity.

• 3:36:15Speaker 03

  Okay, Brad, okay, so when you say, maybe I'm not like that, you're correct. I'm not like that. Probiotics are good, just like antibi- well, antibiotics are good, but anti- for what they're for.

• 3:36:25Jocko Willink?

  I got it, yeah.

• 3:36:26Speaker 03

  You see what I'm saying? So probiotics are like, they're probiotic.

• 3:36:32Jocko Willink?

  Well said.

• 3:36:33Speaker 03

  See what I'm saying?

• 3:36:34Jocko Willink?

  Nicely done.

• 3:36:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, basically like your gut biome, right? And it promotes healthy, healthy bacteria, all this stuff, and you think, probably, it's a huge deal, actually.

• 3:36:41Jocko Willink?

  I know, I know, I know. Now, now I'm starting to realize that. I started to realize I've been wrong for forty six years.

• 3:36:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's kinda like, it's kinda like, if I have like, the metaphor right now. If I have the the key to life, right, the whole, the answer to life, right? What is the meaning of life? I have it. I have it in my, I'm about to tell you, right? But you have earplugs in, so you can't hear me. I still told you.

• 3:37:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:37:05Speaker 03

  But you can't get in your brain, because you have earplugs. Well, you put that probiotics, boom, takes the earplugs out, boom, you got it in your brain. Same thing. Same exact thing, except it's your gut biome.

• 3:37:14Jocko Willink?

  Into an advertisement. I think that's just incredible.

• 3:37:18Speaker 03

  Maybe I will. Anyway, it's called Molk, and it is mint chocolate flavor.

• 3:37:24Jocko Willink?

  Peanut butter's coming, peanut butter, peanut butter chocolates coming.

• 3:37:27Speaker 03

  See, that's the one.

• 3:37:27Jocko Willink?

  And then it's just gonna be, and I, I think we're good on chocolate, just straight chocolate.

• 3:37:33Speaker 03

  You're good, like, that's a go.

• 3:37:34Jocko Willink?

  I've got the sample, and I had it this weekend, and, and yes, it is G O double D good.

• 3:37:40Speaker 03

  Well, I think the chocolate is kind of the staple, right?

• 3:37:43Jocko Willink?

  It is, it is. And that's why it takes a little while, because it's hard to nail it. No one to nail it.

• 3:37:48Speaker 03

  Right, to make it taste like chocolate and not diet chocolate or something like this.

• 3:37:53Jocko Willink?

  I want anything that tastes diet, anything.

• 3:37:55Speaker 03

  You see what I'm saying? Cool, well, nonetheless, be on the lookout for that, and that is, if you're taking protein powder and are like, hey, I want some good quality protein powder, forget about the term protein powder.

• 3:38:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because that, that gives you the idea that this is gonna taste like crap, and this is, this is the miracle. It tastes delicious, and it tastes delicious, and it's got no sugar in it. Yeah, yeah.

• 3:38:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is a miracle. Also.

• 3:38:20Jocko Willink?

  Whatever, wait, does it have a gram? It's got.

• 3:38:24Jocko Willink?

  It might have like a gram.

• 3:38:25Speaker 03

  Well, put it this way, it's not full with sugar like the old school Mega Mass 5 million in the big dog. Food bag, remember that?

• 3:38:33Jocko Willink?

  Not that.

• 3:38:33Speaker 03

  Remember that?

• 3:38:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:38:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was good. That tasted kinda good.

• 3:38:36Jocko Willink?

  It's sweet with monk fruit.

• 3:38:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:38:38Jocko Willink?

  That's that. So if you're wondering like, well, how does it taste not like the artificial sweeteners that people serve up? Which taste nasty, like no matter what, it tastes like crap.

• 3:38:47Speaker 03

  Is monk fruit creamy? Nah, I mean, that's a weird question, but like monk fruit. Cause it doesn't taste like, you know how you use like a, um, I guess, you know, like a sweetener, it has a fruity sweetened thing like the chocolate mint.

• 3:39:00Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what it looks like in its raw form, but I know that it tastes freaking delicious.

• 3:39:04Speaker 03

  Well, I'm gonna look into that one and I will report back. Speaking of reporting back. If in fact you wanna look at it this way, I'm reporting back to the three people this week that asked me what ghee should I get when I start jujitsu? So I know to most of us, this is obvious right now, but I will answer this question anyway. It is an Origin Ghee. And Rashgard, if you're doing no ghee, by the way, but you get an Origin Ghee. You'd get the Origin Ghee for many reasons.

• 3:39:32Speaker 03

  Not only because it's the best ghee, but because it's made in America as well. And there's plenty of options on there. So me saying get an Origin Ghee, it's not just one Origin Ghee.

• 3:39:41Speaker 03

  I guess technically in a way you just get if it's an Origin, it's good, but you have many different options within the brand of Origin Ghee's. So go there. Like I said, originmaine.com, that's where you get everything.

• 3:39:51Jocko Willink?

  Made in America.

• 3:39:51Speaker 03

  Made in America, from the dirt to the shirt.

• 3:39:54Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:39:55Speaker 03

  Meaning, cause if you don't really know what that means, it might not make as much sense, but when you do know what it means, it will make sense. This is what it means. The cotton is grown from America or in America from the dirt. Get it now. And then the shirt at the end where technically it's a ghee or whatever, whatever you get. Boom. Anyway, made in America, everything, originmaine.com also.

• 3:40:17Speaker 03

  There's an immersion camp, jujitsu immersion camp.

• 3:40:20Jocko Willink?

  Filling up, by the way.

• 3:40:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:40:22Jocko Willink?

  Filling up quick.

• 3:40:23Speaker 03

  So get on that. Well, the space is big, so which is good?

• 3:40:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:40:27Speaker 03

  The jujitsu at the muster was good. How big that was?

• 3:40:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:40:31Speaker 03

  That was good, man. And it was still not big enough, I think.

• 3:40:33Jocko Willink?

  Well, we'll double up after.

• 3:40:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:40:36Jocko Willink?

  We're ready to order more mats, but yeah, it's gonna be awesome.

• 3:40:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:40:40Jocko Willink?

  I sort of have an announcement to make on that, too.

• 3:40:42Speaker 03

  Alright.

• 3:40:42Jocko Willink?

  You know who's coming up to that camp?

• 3:40:44Speaker 03

  Lay it on me.

• 3:40:45Jocko Willink?

  Uh, a guy by the name of Dean Lister.

• 3:40:47Speaker 03

  No, dang.

• 3:40:49Jocko Willink?

  Dean's coming up, so.

• 3:40:50Speaker 03

  The knowledge, okay, good.

• 3:40:50Jocko Willink?

  The knowledge, exactly. Just straight knowledge. And if you come up, you get a chance to learn from Dean Lister. And, yeah, that's as good as it's gonna get.

• 3:41:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, Dean is one of those guys, like, kind of those wizard types.

• 3:41:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:41:06Speaker 03

  You know, he's a, I remember, and granted, I was a white belt.

• 3:41:08Jocko Willink?

  He's not even a kind of like thing.

• 3:41:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, straight up.

• 3:41:11Jocko Willink?

  He's got, he's got a, he's got a, um, a gift.

• 3:41:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:41:17Jocko Willink?

  Like a legit gift that people do not have.

• 3:41:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. You ever, and I'm not even asking, have you ever, because I know you have probably many times, but you, you're asked Dean a question about like this problem that you're having.

• 3:41:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:41:30Speaker 03

  And you're having it because the guy who's doing it to you, this move to you, is just super good. But you're having this problem, and you're kind of halfway thinking, actually more than halfway thinking, this is not really an answerable question, but whatever the more info I have, and you ask him, and then he solves your problem. And you're like, wow, have you been thinking about this the whole time? You know, all this jujitsu stuff or whatever, while all of us have been living life, kind of thing. That's what it seems like.

• 3:41:51Jocko Willink?

  He taught something the other day.

• 3:41:54Jocko Willink?

  And it's from, oh, you know, I use the crucifix a lot?

• 3:41:57Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 3:41:57Jocko Willink?

  So he taught something from the crucifix that I'd never saw before, never thought of. And he did it like it was just like, you know, like taking a breath. He's like, oh, yeah, when you get this, you do this.

• 3:42:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:42:09Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, are you serious? I've been training with you for twenty. Um, 23 years and you never maybe gave me a heads up on that.

• 3:42:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:42:16Jocko Willink?

  Bruh. And the reason is, the reason is, there's so much in his brain. There's so much jujitsu in his brain, he can't even like figure out what to tell you unless you come to him with a problem. That's why it's great. If you're coming to the immersion camp, come with problems for Dean.

• 3:42:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:42:31Jocko Willink?

  Come with, come with questions for Dean, cause that's what you want. And then you can draw the answers out that you need from him. Cause there's too much, you can't download everything from his brain. You can't.

• 3:42:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:42:40Jocko Willink?

  It's not like, hey, he's gonna teach you, like you learn this one thing. No, you, you're gonna have to bring questions to him that then he'll solve problems for you.

• 3:42:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:42:48Jocko Willink?

  That's what I recommend. Jiu Jitsu camp, um, immersion camp.

• 3:42:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:42:52Jocko Willink?

  26 September through May 2nd. Did you say that already?

• 3:42:54Speaker 03

  August 26.

• 3:42:56Jocko Willink?

  I guess I said it wrong.

• 3:42:57Speaker 03

  End of August. Oh, good. You know, I remember that, cause that is my son's birthday. August 26 through September 2nd, two sessions?

• 3:43:06Jocko Willink?

  Or you can say for the whole, the whole time.

• 3:43:07Speaker 03

  The whole deal. Yeah, man. Good deal. Good fun.

• 3:43:10Jocko Willink?

  Register at, uh, register at originmaine.com.

• 3:43:12Speaker 03

  Yep. Leif is going. Leif Bavin. Dave Burke. Good deal, Dave.

• 3:43:16Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:43:17Speaker 03

  I'm going. JP's going.

• 3:43:19Jocko Willink?

  I think he's going.

• 3:43:20Speaker 03

  How's this Dean? When I got my surgery last week, I, I'm going in for my surgery. Dean is there just coming out of his surgery. So how is he gonna be his first roll?

• 3:43:29Jocko Willink?

  He won't be able to go roll hard, but yesterday, I trained yesterday, just a little in-house, little core group of guys. We came and trained and Dean came and coached and he was showing moves.

• 3:43:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:43:41Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 3:43:42Speaker 03

  Oh, my shoes.

• 3:43:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. He was putting crush.

• 3:43:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I'll, I'll be there kinda on the, on the.

• 3:43:48Jocko Willink?

  You'll be on the clasp.

• 3:43:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, on the fence there. Like, I rolled with Pete, um, like, you know, or didn't wear it before I got my surgery, but my bicep was detached. And I just put my hand like this. I couldn't, you can, you just basically can't pull. Yeah, I can't anyway. This is my injury. Bicep, I can't pull.

• 3:44:05Jocko Willink?

  You just have to be careful.

• 3:44:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I could do a lot of that kinda rolling, but I got, it's, it's hard. I can't roll probably with like, you know, like, um.

• 3:44:12Jocko Willink?

  Level 12 head hunters.

• 3:44:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, less experience or something like that.

• 3:44:15Jocko Willink?

  I'll do it with you.

• 3:44:17Speaker 03

  No, you can't roll with me. I'll roll with Pete. That's all. I basically just trust Pete. That's it pretty much.

• 3:44:23Speaker 03

  But yeah, go to that, that'd be fun. Uh, don't worry what level jujitsu you're at, even if you're at literally level zero.

• 3:44:28Jocko Willink?

  We had level, level zero people came last year.

• 3:44:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:44:31Jocko Willink?

  First jujitsu class.

• 3:44:32Speaker 03

  Two, for sure. It's good.

• 3:44:34Jocko Willink?

  Come and get it.

• 3:44:34Speaker 03

  So yeah, come and get it. Also, for fitness gear, the best fitness gear, some of the best fitness gear. All the fitness gear I have pretty much on it.com slash Jaco, that's where you get it. Also, I got on it socks, by the way. Freaking awesome, got one right now. Um, yeah, get the, get the, the primal bells, the kettlebells. See what I'm saying? And when you're looking for the information, before you start the kettlebells, this is, can be dangerous, bro. Swinging around big cannonballs.

• 3:45:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:45:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:45:05Jocko Willink?

  Can have a mishap.

• 3:45:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, look at, big time. Um, they got some good information on technique and all that stuff. It's good. A lot of cool stuff on there.

• 3:45:16Speaker 03

  On it.com slash Jaco.

• 3:45:19Speaker 03

  Also, when you get the books that Jaco reviews on this podcast, I got them organized on the website. Jocko Podcast dot com, books from the episode, this little tab on the top. Click on there, boom, I got them all organized by episode. Uh, click through there, take it to Amazon and, you know, do your shopping, get the book. Get whatever else, keep shopping, whatever, or not, whatever you like. Nonetheless, it's a good way to support if you do.

• 3:45:45Speaker 03

  Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. On Stitcher and iTunes and Google Play and wherever you, or wherever you listen to the, uh, to the podcast. Cause there's a lot of podcast apps out there and I get it. It's good, it's a good thing.

• 3:46:01Speaker 03

  Vast marketplace of podcast apps. Get in there. Nonetheless, subscribe when you do and that's a good way to support. Also on YouTube, video version of this podcast, if you're interested in that, video version. Uh, also we got excerpts on there. It's a good reason to subscribe, in my opinion. So when I put out an excerpt, maybe that's the one that really you were waiting for. Rather than sifting through all the episodes and then sifting through the episode, which is three, four hours long sometimes. And then, oh, there it is, and then listening to it, kind of thing, and, you know, I don't know how practical that is sometimes. So boom, I try to put all the excerpts, all the points, all the significant points, and there's a lot, by the way, that Jaco makes. Try to put them in excerpts on the YouTube channel. Maybe that's the one you were looking for. It's a good reason to subscribe, in my opinion. So, yeah, do that. Good way to support as well.

• 3:46:46Speaker 03

  Also, Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco's Store. So let me ask you this. Not you, Jaco. That's the people. Have you ever looked at Jaco's shirt? And been like, you know what? I wish I had that shirt. Or have you ever looked at a shirt that I wear that says, "Discipline Equals Freedom"? Have you ever looked at that and said, "Dang, I want that shirt"? Guess what? There's a place you can get them. It's called Jaco's Store dot com. That's where you can get it. "Discipline Equals Freedom: Get After It Shirt". The actual shirt that Jaco's wearing right now, literally, the one that Jaco's wearing right now, you can get that shirt. Represent, big time. Good way to support. And support yourself. There's also rash cards and stuff on there.

• 3:47:28Speaker 03

  Patches, hoodies, hats, new hats, by the way.

• 3:47:32Jocko Willink?

  Trucker hats.

• 3:47:32Speaker 03

  Trucker hats.

• 3:47:33Jocko Willink?

  Well, I like the trucker hats.

• 3:47:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, the Flex Fit. I thought you'd like the Flex Fit.

• 3:47:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't like Flex Fit, actually. But I know that's probably the preferred hat in the population of the world, is the Flex Fit.

• 3:47:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so.

• 3:47:44Jocko Willink?

  I just still like trucker hats. Old school, back in the day.

• 3:47:47Speaker 03

  Have you ever worn a Flex Fit hat?

• 3:47:49Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 3:47:49Speaker 03

  Oh, you have? Oh, straight up, alright. And you don't like that one? You don't like the convenience of this, the Flex Fit? I guess if you have the snapback, you just put it on one size. Now, your head gets bigger.

• 3:47:59Jocko Willink?

  My head does not get bigger.

• 3:48:01Speaker 03

  Your head gets bigger.

• 3:48:01Jocko Willink?

  Or smaller on a daily basis.

• 3:48:03Speaker 03

  Really? Because after we roll, sometimes I feel like your head's kind of bigger.

• 3:48:06Jocko Willink?

  No, I think that just might be the way you feel.

• 3:48:09Speaker 03

  Mine's just smaller. I get it. Nonetheless, both types of hats on there. Women's stuff on there as well. I'm putting tank tops on there. So be on the lookout for that.

• 3:48:20Jocko Willink?

  Like for dudes' tank tops?

• 3:48:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's already women's tank tops on there.

• 3:48:25Jocko Willink?

  Or we're gonna get dudes going to school.

• 3:48:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, dude. Yeah, exactly right. Boom, summer, summertime, right? Boom, show off the guns.

• 3:48:33Jocko Willink?

  Beanie.

• 3:48:33Speaker 03

  Sun's out, guns out. Beans out, beanies are in for, just in time for summer, all good. But, you know, some places like Alaska, summertime's cold too. So boom, get the beanie. Also. Psychological warfare. If you don't know what that is. It's an album. Jaco's album on iTunes with tracks. Jaco tracks. And here's what it is. Not Jaco singing. It's Jaco talking to you. Every track is Jaco talking to you. And what he's telling you is reasons why you shouldn't give in to the weakness that you will be giving into sometimes. If you don't have this. You will be giving into this weakness on your path. On your campaign against weakness. On the path. On the warpath. We're all on the path, by the way. Are we not? I hope so.

• 3:49:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, here's the thing. I think you're kind of the leader on this path. I kind of evaluated this. Over here doing what I'm doing. Okay, no. And I was into working out before I get it, you know? But it's the kind where, like, if I didn't feel like working out, it's like, I just kind of won't work out. I'll do it tomorrow because I will and I would usually, you know, kind of thing. But when you kind of quantify it as this path and when the term campaign against weakness, weakness kind of got introduced, that's a really good thing, too, because generally speaking, that's really what jams you up in my opinion, in my experience. Where, yeah, if I don't feel like doing it, right? I don't feel like doing it. That's weakness, right? If I say, oh, I'm not going to do it because I don't feel like it.

• 3:50:00Speaker 03

  Then you go through life not feeling like doing stuff and not doing it. And most of the time, we don't feel like it, especially as you get older, especially as you take on other responsibilities. But if you make it a point to understand that I'm gonna consciously not feel like doing something, understand that it needs to be done, then kind of fight that kind of weakness there.

• 3:50:21Speaker 03

  That's the path I'm talking about. And this will help you with that path. Yeah, okay, sorry. Yeah, back to the psychological warfare. I think you wrapped it up nicely. No, no, no. To me, it's more to understand that. Because the more that, in my opinion, or in my experience, the more I understood that, the more like kind of effective, you know, you are in staying on this path. So anyway, when you reach like a little small point of weakness, you listen to this album, specific track that is designated for that weakness. Hundred percent, hundred percent.

• 3:50:51Speaker 03

  You will not give in to that weakness.

• 3:50:53Jocko Willink?

  That's good. Psychological warfare. We need to make a second album. People need to ask what they want to hear. What moments of weakness need to be overcome? I know I had some for like smoking.

• 3:51:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:51:04Jocko Willink?

  Some for, uh, drinking.

• 3:51:07Speaker 03

  Drinking would be a good one. Yeah, it, it, in my, the way it was born was because of a weakness that I specifically, specifically had. Like something that it kind of like got to me late, you know, like later on. Like during, at the time, I'm like, eh, whatever. Why should I put this much pressure on myself? Is that, you know, is that healthy? You ever do that?

• 3:51:28Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 3:51:28Speaker 03

  I know you don't do that. Come on, let's face it. It's kind of like one of those things where it's like, it's a justification, but it's like, uh, like, hey, you shouldn't put so much pressure on yourself, you know? Don't add this stress. Hey, life is stressful. Don't add more stress like this, you know, when it's like,

• 3:51:46Speaker 03

  but it's just an excuse, man. Add more stress.

• 3:51:49Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 3:51:49Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 3:51:50Jocko Willink?

  All right, quite on the set. I'm gonna do a sound effect thing. Are you ready? So, Jocka White Tea. Obviously, for a, a, a long time, we've had tea bags that you can get.

• 3:51:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:51:59Jocko Willink?

  Uh, what's that called? Dry tea is what it's called.

• 3:52:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:52:02Jocko Willink?

  And Jocka White Tea, available on Amazon, real tasty. And good for you. And we just got it made and put into cans. So, here we go. Sound effects. Are you ready? Here we go. This is, uh, Jocka White Tea opening.

• 3:52:21Jocko Willink?

  There you go. So, now you can get Jocka White Tea in a can. It is ah, delicious, and it's good for you. And, you know, even if, even if you don't like the taste, even if you don't like that it's good for you, you will like the fact that after you drink one can, you'll be able to deadlift 8,000 pounds minimum. Minimum. That's the minimum.

• 3:52:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:52:42Jocko Willink?

  And it's been proven scientifically, backwards and forwards, double-blind placebo, placebo.

• 3:52:47Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 3:52:48Jocko Willink?

  Whatever you want to call it. Yeah, Jocka White Tea, it's, it's available on Amazon. Eventually, we'll get it everywhere. That's the goal. But right now, it's available on Amazon, so, because that's the quickest way to get it out to everyone. So, there you go. Get it. Victory in a can. Organic. Did I tell you that? No, but I saw it on the, on the deal. Actually, I saw the deal on the, in the beginning. Just because. I'm impressed, man. No GMOs here? No reason to go and drink a, a drink that's gonna have been filled with a bunch of stuff that you don't want in your body. Agree. Just drink Jocko White Tea. Alright, books. Got the Way of the Warrior Kid series. And I got, um, here's just a little note.

• 3:53:28Jocko Willink?

  A kid, uh, a guy wrote, "My eight-year-old who read your book, Way of the Warrior Kid, in January 2018. Since then, he has gone beast mode. Runs 1.3 kilometers most mornings before school and 2.6 kilometers on the weekends. He trains, plays, and enjoys life since reading your book. His room is immaculately tidy. Your book switched something in him. He is self-motivated and strives to achieve. We talk about 1% in life and doing the small things well in school and sports. Thanks for your service and the book." So there you go.

• 3:54:03Jocko Willink?

  No big deal, right? Can you imagine that? That's freaking awesome. His room is immaculate. He's on the path, you know? Yeah. The path. Big time. So pick up Way of the Warrior Kid and Mark's Mission. Get your kid on the path. If you want to support a warrior kid named Aiden that's making things happen, go to irishoaksranch.com and get some of the soap that he makes on his farm from goat milk.

• 3:54:30Jocko Willink?

  He makes Jocko soap, so you can stay clean. Don't forget about the Discipline Equals Freedom field manual, of course. Um, this was awesome. I was at the muster. And we're doing PT. It's four, whatever, 4:35 in the morning or something. And this woman comes up to me and she's a little older. And she just looks at me and she's like, "Can I tell you something?" Though that look was on her face and so I gave her the nod of like, "Go ahead and tell me." And she's like, "It was November 7th, 2017." And I was at Sam's Club. And I saw this book, this black book. And I never saw a book like that. And I picked it up and

• 3:55:15Jocko Willink?

  looked at it and said, this, I've never seen anything like this. She bought it. And since that time, she's lost 23 pounds and she said she's got her life back. Boom. That's awesome. So you know who you are out there. So thank you for letting me know that that was a very cool story to hear. And I appreciate that feedback. That's the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Thoughts and actions, both inside. If you want the audio version of that, which people still ask me every single day. You can't get it on Audible. It's not on Audible. It's on Amazon Music, iTunes, Google Play and other MP3 platforms as an album with tracks.

• 3:55:59Jocko Willink?

  Also for leadership, of course, there's the first book, Extreme Ownership, the leadership book for the battlefield, business and life. And actually, somebody else at the muster said, hey, you never talk about the Audible version of Extreme Ownership, because that is available on Audible. And guess who reads it? Leif Babin and me. And this guy was saying, you should, everyone should be listening to that. It's, it's, it's better to listen to it than to read it. Which that depends on who you are, but for this individual, he was like, you need to tell people about that. That's awesome that you guys, and anyone else is on that? Audiobook, sound effects. We put sound effects in there, machine gunfire, explosions, things like that. You know why? Cause. Immersion. Immersion. So yeah, so you can get that. Also,

• 3:56:43Jocko Willink?

  coming out September 25th, we have the follow on book to Extreme Ownership. It's called The Dichotomy of Leadership. It's available for preorder, wherever you want to preorder, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, local bookstore. It's going to be out September 25th. If you want one of the first edition copies, which you do, if you want to be a book person like me, you want to get that first edition because that's cool. And if you don't order it, then you won't get it in time because the publisher won't make enough because they have no idea. They don't understand how many people are out there waiting for this book. So if you want it, order it, that'd be cool. If you want to work with us in person, call Echelon Front. It's me,

• 3:57:25Jocko Willink?

  Leif Babin, JP Danelle, Dave Burke. Our website is echelonfront.com and we solve problems through leadership. That's it. Of course, the muster leadership seminar

• 3:57:39Jocko Willink?

  oh five, oh oh five was in Washington DC. It was awesome and it sold out. Yes. And there's only one more muster in 2018. It's muster zero zero six in San Francisco, California, October 17th and 18th. Register at extremeownership.com. If you want to come, it will sell out. And that's all there is to it. And also for current law enforcement, military firefighters, paramedics, and other first responders, roll call zero zero one, September 21st in Dallas, Texas. One day leadership training seminar focused on people in uniform. You can register for that also at extremeownership.com. And until the muster, or the roll call, or the immersion camp in Maine,

• 3:58:23Jocko Willink?

  if you want to communicate with us, you know that you can find us on the interwebs. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And to the men of the greatest generation like Mr. T. Fred Harvey, thank you for your service. And to the rest of the men and women out there continuing to hold the line, thanks to you and to your families for what you do every day and what they do to support you. Of course, thanks to all the first responders, police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, and those who stand the watch 24/7 to keep us safe. And to the rest of you,

• 3:59:10Jocko Willink?

  life can be hard. And life can be challenging and life can contain a fair amount of suffering.

• 3:59:22Jocko Willink?

  But you know what? It's the one life you've got. So go and live a life that in the end allows you to look back and say, "Hell, yes, I'd do it all again."

• 3:59:41Jocko Willink?

  Until next time. This is Echo and Jaco. Out.