From LRRP in Vietnam to Commanding Delta Force & Ranger Regiment | Dave Grange | Ep. 365

In a wide-ranging discussion, Major General David Grange recounts his extensive military career, from his early days as a Ranger in Vietnam to his time in Delta Force and commanding the 1st Infantry Division. He shares stories of his experiences, including lessons learned, unique training philosophies, and his role in major operations like Eagle Claw and the Grenada invasion. Finally, he discusses his transition to a civilian career, where he applied his military expertise to logistics and security challenges around the globe. Subscribe to our new newsletter!!!! https://teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join Today's Sponsors: GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 - Start 01:06 - Background and family history. 05:02 - LRRP platoon leader in Vietnam. 13:06 - Lessons from combat. 29:26 - Decision to stay in the Army after Vietnam. 41:58 - Operation Eagle Claw. 52:58 - SAS selection course. 59:49 - Squadron commander in Delta Force. 1:16:50 - Battalion commander in Korea. 1:27:55 - Deputy commander of Delta Force during Desert Storm. 1:38:10 - Regimental Commander of the Rangers. 1:49:49 - Commander of the 1st Infantry Division in Bosnia and Kosovo. 1:58:52 - Retirement and civilian career. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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  Special Operations.

• 1:35Speaker 04

  Covert Ops. Espionage. The Team House. With your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

• 1:51Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 365 of The Team House. I'm Jack, here with Dave. And our guests on today's show, we're very happy to have Major General retired Dave Grange on the show. General Grange served in Vietnam, served in special forces and Ranger Battalion, commanded the Ranger Regiment, served as a squadron commander in Delta Force, and then later the deputy commander deploying the Desert Storm. I mean, a very extensive career. Finished his time commanding first Infantry Division. And we're going to get into all of this. But first, Dave, thank you for joining us on the show today.

• 2:29Speaker 06

  Well, thank you. Appreciate the opportunity.

• 2:32Jack Murphy?

  So to kick it off, I'd like to ask you about, you know, sort of your upbringing, your origins. I know you have an interesting family background that goes back into the Army. If you tell us a little bit about how you grew up and how that kind of took you towards military service yourself.

• 2:48Speaker 06

  Sure. So, yeah, the family kind of runs with OD green blood, you know. I was an Army brat almost right away. My father was a private in World War II as a paratrooper. In Korea as a paratrooper, and then infantryman, and then Vietnam with 101st and Special Forces Advisor and that. So we moved around a lot, just like all Army families do. And I did a lot of hunting with him, fishing, you know, moving around the woods, and which actually

• 3:27Speaker 06

  helped me out quite a bit even at that age, you know, becoming a soldier. But he never put any pressure on me about, you know, me going to the military. But I just kind of liked what we were doing. I mean, I'd be in my little Bergen or my little German rucksack in Bavaria, going up with his A-team, reconning the terrain that they were going to use as a insurgent force against conventional units in Germany at that time with his A-team, which no one spoke English in the team except for himself. Everybody was from Eastern Europe or someplace. And it kind of just was a bug I got. I went to North Georgia College,

• 4:10Speaker 06

  which is a military college, barely got in because my grades were terrible. But I went there and it got a hook into me and I finally did well and commissioned as an infantry officer. And that's how it, that's kind of how it started uh uh in uh with my dad and then North Georgia College.

• 4:34Jack Murphy?

  And what year did you commission?

• 4:37Speaker 06

  Well, I was supposed to commission in, in May of uh seventy and I actually got out early, December nineteen sixty-nine. See, I went to North Georgia in academic probation because I was kind of a wild teenager and they, they squared me away right away. Uh, and, and so I started going to additional summer schools and actually did very well in the school and first in summer camp and uh with uh all the colleges and so I, that, that uh, so that's how I got to Vietnam because I commit, I got, I graduated early.

• 5:12Jack Murphy?

  And when you got to Vietnam, you served with Lima Company, uh, the reconstituted Ranger companies?

• 5:20Speaker 06

  I, I started out as a grunt in the five oh six infantry, uh, Band of Brothers unit, like the same uh platoon that Winters, Lieutenant Winters and Band of Brothers commanded uh during war, or lab of World War Two. Uh, they call it different, they went in Echo Company, as you know now, it's uh A B C D, A B C D through each battalion, but it was actually the same platoon. And so, um, and then I got wounded, kind of bad, and uh, when I went back, I actually, the sergeant major got me back into, back into Vietnam, I was supposed to go to a VA hospital for ninety days or something and he got me back in and my father picked me

• 6:04Speaker 06

  up in a helicopter, he, he was there then, he, he, he was on his third tour and I was on my first tour. I was lieutenant, he was a brigade commander. And uh, he got me back in there, I painted my cast from my shoulder down on my, my wrist OD green, uh, so I could move around in a, in a jungle and that. But he uh, uh, then I went to L Company, once I got better, I went to L Company Rangers, yeah, as a LRB.

• 6:31Jack Murphy?

  Hey, tell us a little bit about that, we've interviewed some of the LRBs on this show in the past, I'd love to hear from your experience as a, a platoon leader or a company commander at that time.

• 6:42Speaker 06

  Sure. Now, as a platoon leader, a guy replaced, Dennis Autel, great guy. A shot in the head in the Asher Valley, putting out a claymore, Ho Chi Minh Trail. And that's the platoon I took over, second platoon, Lima Company, 101st Airborne. I'll tell you, that, that, being an infantry guy, grunt, first, and then going to Lima Company kind of shaped my whole career, how I thought. Probably more than the mistakes that were made, made a difference to me than how great

• 7:26Speaker 06

  we did. It was a great outfit, super guys, men with painted faces, as they called it then. And so, that kind of shaped how I trained, how I trained myself, and self-discipline on myself, but also what I instilled in those that I led, was L Company Rangers. And we were deep and, you know, out of artillery range, you relied on overgunships or, I think they call it Stinger and Spooky Zen or whatever, just like the AC-130 today, using, I think,

• 8:09Speaker 06

  47s, but also using 123s, and then airstrikes, of course. And it was a great learning experience, very decentralized. We had a selection process, not as good as it is today, but it was a selection process nonetheless. And I still communicate with some of those guys, a lot of them are dead now. And it set the base for me for Rangering.

• 8:44Speaker 06

  Probably even more than Ranger School. And tactics, techniques, and procedures. Like movement, fishhooking back around, ambush shoes following you, how to put out claymores the right way, not the way you're tested really on EIB. And so, yeah, it was a wonderful experience. Got wounded there my second time with those 12-man hunter killer team, which we did periodically because we bumped into quite a large force. Seven medevac, with myself, which we did ourselves.

• 9:25Speaker 06

  But yeah, great experience, Jack. I loved it. I reminisce about it periodically still.

• 9:31Jack Murphy?

  Could you tell us a little bit about that experience when you got wounded and cast vacked out?

• 9:36Speaker 06

  We went in to find a waystation slash hospital in a pretty tough area we hadn't operated in for at all. And we did a false insertion. We came in on some UEs that extracted an infantry unit. Laying down in the chopper a little bit, just trying to keep a lower profile. And we were able to do that because we had, there were so many ships coming in to get the infantry company out right before dark. And that's how we, that's how we got in.

• 10:17Speaker 06

  And then we moved as far as we could that night. And then, you know, because of booby traps and everything, we RON'd. Set up and just to see if anybody followed us with the LZ. And

• 10:37Speaker 06

  I'm trying to remember exactly, a couple of days and then we got to near where the objectives were, so we ran into the OPs of the, of what I was told later were battalion sized force. And it was security elements that were protecting this waystation for, you know, ammunition, other supplies, as well as taking care of the wounded. It, it wasn't as far west as the, uh, Ashaw Valley, but it was right on the edge there. And, uh, and we got in a firefight and, uh, shooting grenades, different things, RPGs, things going off. And we ended up with seven injured, two killed, and, uh, five of us wounded.

• 11:22Speaker 06

  Uh, a, um, it was in a third brigade, uh, not third brigade, first brigade commander's AOR. Um, uh, trying to think of his name, but he, he wounded in Korea, tough guy, tough brigade commander. On radio with him the whole time, he helped us with air support, which we used a lot, because we were, we got caught in a saddle. And, uh, we, you know, kind of in front of us, left and right. And, um, and so the main thing then was to evacuate the wounded, because we were, there's only five guys that remained, you know, that

• 12:04Speaker 06

  were operational to fight. Um, you know, one interesting thing about operating as a lieutenant in Vietnam, is that a lieutenant, and hopefully you were trained on fire support, uh, just your initials, you could, without going to any higher headquarters than that, even in the, even as an advisor on a second tour or whatever, a lieutenant in the infantry, I could call in an airstrike, artillery. I didn't have to get approval from anybody. You know, it was myself and my team sergeant or team sergeant, whatever. We did it. Uh,

• 12:45Speaker 06

  that's kind of how it was run then. And, uh, that saved our ass. Uh, but yeah, Uwe came in, old medevac Uwe's, um,

• 12:56Speaker 06

  Great, you know, the signature helicopter, right, from the Vietnam War. Great helicopter. I flew them later, doing a little stunt as additional skill identifier, you know, flying helicopters for one hundred first. But, um, you know, they pull us out with a hoist, two guys at a time, one would sit on the, the little seat kind of thing that came down and the other guy would be on your lap, on the lap and pull them up that way. Uh, if they were, you know, the guy was, had to be in a basket, they'd do that. And they were periodically under fire and, uh, that, we kept that down in momentum because of the air breaks.

• 13:37Speaker 06

  And finally, after, I was the last wounded guy out, then I put my team sergeant, actually I put a corporal in charge now I remember, Quigley, Corporal Quigley. Uh, because they put in a rifle company, uh, to reinforce it and then to exploit what we had found. But our mission ended that, then, because we had somebody wounded.

• 14:03Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:04Speaker 06

  And KIA.

• 14:05Jack Murphy?

  And I, I take it that was sort of the end of that tour for you after being wounded?

• 14:14Speaker 06

  No, I didn't leave country and out. The first one I, I left country, I went to Guam, which is really a Navy place. Uh, why I was the only Army guy there, I have no idea. But, uh, no, I stayed at eighty-fifth and back right there in Phu Bai.

• 14:29Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 14:30Speaker 06

  And went back to my unit, yeah.

• 14:31Jack Murphy?

  And what were, you mentioned that, you know, you almost learn more from the mistakes than the successes. What were some of like the big bullet points that, the, you know, whether they were improved or sustains for your time with the LRS that you took away and took with you through the rest of your career?

• 14:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, let's see, a couple things. So one, uh, let's talk about the environment first. I mean, you have to be one with the environment. Uh, desert, jungle, mountains, Arctic, whatever it is, you cannot fight.

• 15:06Speaker 06

  The terrain, you have to be with the terrain. You have, just like a hunter, you know, you're stalking, deer hunting, whatever, duck hunting, whatever you're doing, you have to be a part of the terrain. The VC, the NVA, they, they were part of the terrain. They knew how to live in it, move in it, eat in it, believe themselves in it, whatever the case may be. Monsoons, you know, bugs, snake, whatever, they just, they were comfortable in it. And in LERP, you learned how to do that. I mean, we could smell the enemy. Our, our acuteness on hearing and sight was phenomenal.

• 15:50Speaker 06

  Our noise discipline, you didn't have a poncho because if it rained, it reflected. You had a poncho on it, you had a half of a poncho on it. On your LERP rations, you didn't tear open to make noise of cellophane, all the stuff they're wrapping before you went out, you carefully opened them up to the last piece that the food was in and you put a piece of black tape on it. You didn't snap your rucksack pouches. You used 550 cord and a carved piece of stick and hooked it just like the, the NVA back rucksacks. Everything was quiet and you move like a, like a, like an animal, like a, like a lion

• 16:32Speaker 06

  would move, a tiger, cougar, whatever, you were quiet. And, and, and that's why if somebody got sick, it coughed and, you know, that, you didn't take them out of patrol, you just couldn't, you couldn't do it. I mean, I, I remember where my team sergeant almost smothered a guy to death, keep holding his hand over his mouth. The, so you had to be part of the terrain so you could focus on killing the enemy, not worrying about whining about, oh, it's raining, I'm tired, you know, the bugs are biting me, I'm slapping the ski, you can't do that. So the self-discipline involved in living in the environment to fight is extremely important for reconnaissance organizations.

• 17:15Speaker 07

  Is that something that guys came with or is it something that they were able to learn when they were there?

• 17:20Speaker 06

  They had to learn it.

• 17:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 17:22Speaker 06

  You didn't learn that back in the United States before you left.

• 17:26Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 17:26Speaker 06

  You had to learn it there and, and, and the young sergeants, you know, corporals.

• 17:33Speaker 06

  E5s and that, they taught them all that. They taught me that. And it was easier for me and some of the other guys, because they used to hunt a lot and stuff.

• 17:42Speaker 07

  Right.

• 17:43Speaker 06

  You know, I always, I used to always tell guys, you know, a hunter makes a good soldier better. A soldier makes a good hunter better. It's very true. So that's one thing. Being a part of the environment. I just, we'll talk about it later maybe, but I just, I learned that in the last three years in Ukraine. A phenomenon my guys doing the training were doing already by the front lines. You gotta, what they had to do, live with the terrain and what's going on.

• 18:15Speaker 06

  The discipline of stuff that you forget in special operations, the more elite you get. So, and as an example.

• 18:26Speaker 06

  You get into the Rangers. Rangers make a good infantryman better, as an example. You go to Special Forces. You go to Delta Force, whatever the case may be. You get a little cocky.

• 18:41Speaker 06

  You've gone through all these different hoops and you made, you made the cut. It's like a pyramid. But if you forget where you come from. The basic infantry tasks. You screw up. So, most of the guys I've seen wounded or killed in my career was not the sexy stuff. It was basic screw ups. Noise and light discipline, dispersion.

• 19:10Speaker 06

  Tie downs on equipment.

• 19:13Speaker 06

  No one, just like, just like long range patrol and SAS in North Africa. Patty Main just quoted saying, when I was in a jeep, kitted out to go behind German lines. My guys had a new, when they reached back on their left side, there was a torch, meaning a flashlight. I reached back on my right side, there was a machine gun belt for my Victor's machine gun. I knew everything, everything was there. The, the discipline, the small stuff that in a firefighter at nighttime in a confusion. When people are scared, get screwed up.

• 19:53Speaker 06

  And so it reinforced in the LURPs because, you know, there may be six guys, right? Sometimes five, usually six, sometimes a hundred killer team at 12, which really meant you got a few more guys than an M60 machine gun with you. You have to depend on the discipline in it. You remember Dick Meadows?

• 20:16Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:17Speaker 06

  I knew Dick Meadows very well when I was a Ranger Company Commander for Eagle Claw and Hard Rock Charlie, Savannah, first bat. He was the advisor to Delta then. Later on, his son was my recon battler later in Korea in the 503rd. But he was really good at this. And you remember, he was direct commissioner of Vietnam, DSC winner.

• 20:48Speaker 07

  MACV SOG.

• 20:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, the guy had his shit together. And he was one of my mentors. He loved the Rangers. He served down in the Florida camp under Beckwith. That's how Beckwith knew him and he picked him for Sante and all that stuff, or not Beckwith, Bull Simons and that. So he was really hard on that. And he knew how to instill that in that, so I tried to copy him as best I could. And so that attention to detail, when you're in a fight, you don't have time to try to correct those things. They have to be automatic.

• 21:30Speaker 06

  They can't be, oh shit, did I do this, did I do that, whatever. You have to focus on the enemy and where your guys are, those kind of things. And so that's kind of a second point, I think, I'd bring up. And let me just add one more on the LARP thing. I really learned about the importance of intel.

• 21:57Speaker 06

  One, we had to find intel, but the intel even for our patrols, how important it is because you rely on those guys that provide that intel, stay alive and to accomplish your mission.

• 22:12Speaker 06

  And also, we, we had the responsibility to gather intel ourselves.

• 22:18Speaker 06

  And you're not going to gather intel if you're a bunch of goofballs running around the jungle out there, not knowing what you're doing.

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• 27:02Speaker 06

  I'm gonna add one more. That's the training thing. Everything's about training.

• 27:08Speaker 06

  Uh, I don't...

• 27:13Speaker 06

  Training's a continuous process.

• 27:16Speaker 06

  And it can never, ever, ever stop. And I carried it all the way through Division Command. Train, train, train. With whatever you got, you train. And I got to where in my mind, I was so convinced of this, the importance of training.

• 27:35Speaker 06

  That...

• 27:38Speaker 06

  On... The training, the training requirements, I would take, let me say it this way, I would take a nine-man, 12-man, whatever it is squad with M1 Garand rifles that was heavily trained, that knew their stuff and training, then all the sexy equipment you could have, and I'd kick your ass because my guys are trained. Training is everything. Everything. And I carried it on through even the Ranger, and we'll talk about that later if you want, as a Ranger, the RCO, where every one of our battalions deployed live ammo, parachute in, not everybody got a chance to parachute in with the live ammo, but it makes, how many

• 28:23Speaker 06

  people have done that unless it's in combat? Which it shouldn't be the first time you do it.

• 28:30Speaker 06

  You know, it's like twice the weight. It really sucks. It's tough. And, and, uh, and so it's all about training. And so I lived or died on training. That's why Mungadae, officers being trained. I want to talk about that a little bit if we get a chance tonight. Uh, why that's so important. So I think those are some that come to mind right away, Jack.

• 28:56Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that with us. Um, and you mentioned you did a, a second tour as an advisor?

• 29:04Speaker 06

  I did. So first tour is infantry rifle platoon leader. Second tour is alert platoon leader. Uh, where I was in a hospital part of the time. That kind of disrupted it somewhat. Uh, second tour, 81st Airborne Ranger Group advisor, which is attached or OPCON to the Vietnamese Airborne Division. 81st Airborne Ranger Group was the old Project Delta that Charlie Beckwith commanded. And these were really good Vietnamese fighters. The only, the only ones that compared to them was a group called the Hoc Bao.

• 29:48Speaker 06

  The Hoc Bao was the Black Panthers, uh, that the Ranger, the LERFs, we'd go on missions with them. One, one American lieutenant or platoon sergeant with a Hoc Bao platoon. And they would go in to the worst areas in Vietnam to, uh, destroy, kill, whatever they could find. They only wore LCE. There was no rucksacks, nothing. Just they went in and then after they killed everything, they came out. And, um, I had the opportunity to go on two missions with them.

• 30:30Speaker 06

  They were pretty fanatical and the reason being is every member of the Hoc Bao.

• 30:38Speaker 06

  A family member had been killed by the VC of the NVA. That's how they got in the unit, because they wanted people that were vetted, that were sure that were loyal to the South Vietnamese military. And they were tough, tough guys. Little fanatical, but really tough. And most of the targets were NVA, deep, deep targets. Anyhow, as the advisor in the 81st Airborne Ranger Group, that was a great unit. And I was with them for Lamb's, for the second offensive. Not as popular, obviously, or famous as Tet 68, but it was nonetheless, pretty bad. And it was because we were drawing down.

• 31:22Speaker 06

  And this would have been 71 slash 72, because they got over there in 70. Yeah. So 71, 72. And they were, they again, went kind of deep for the division, up in I Corps, is where I operated, some in II Corps, Anloch, outside of Duckto, places like that. And we operated at company-sized units, and I was the advisor to the recon company of

• 32:03Speaker 06

  the 81st Airborne Battalion. So, the guy that I worked with was really a tough guy. He was a weightlifting champion for middleweight, a long, long time ago, before the war in South Vietnam. They called him the Tiger Man. And he was tough. He, he got killed later on. But he was, he was really tough, and that was a great job. Lot of reconnaissance, blew up a couple bridges, it was just a enjoyable fight, me and I had a platoon sergeant with me, our E7.

• 32:44Speaker 06

  And that was, when they were overthrowing a lot of the firebases. Vietnamese firebases. Be one American advisor, two, a couple. And they all got rolled up.

• 33:03Speaker 06

  Fast. They were moving in regimental sized units. We were in companies.

• 33:09Speaker 06

  They had tanks, PT 76s.

• 33:14Speaker 06

  We didn't have artillery support.

• 33:18Speaker 06

  And very little, remember the Americas are drawing down, 72, it was like May, I think it's 72, something like that. And the only thing you had really was Sky Raiders now and then, which is a great, great fighting airplane, prop. Good, good fighting airplane. I love them. I think SOCOM is actually working on a program to bring some of these back.

• 33:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 06

  I like those as much as I like A-10s. I like them both a lot. They should belong to the Army. Anyway, so the

• 33:54Speaker 06

  lot of fights.

• 33:57Speaker 06

  Actually, we got more fights than I did with 101st. And I remember one fight we went in with, then I got

• 34:08Speaker 06

  recon company got shot up pretty bad. They reassigned us. I went to I went out outside of Anloch with a rifle, rifle company, 110 guys, and we came back, there's only 19 left. And it was because we had, I was by myself. I didn't have a sergeant, nothing.

• 34:30Speaker 06

  We had again, they were operating like regiments.

• 34:36Speaker 06

  I mean, they'd do a B-52 prep on an LZ.

• 34:40Speaker 06

  Where you walk on it, you come into it, and you're like knee deep in like powder from just the ground being totally destroyed. And there'd still be guys coming out of the ground, bleeding out their nose, ears, eyes. Delirious, but they were, you know, still running around. But they so that company got kind of decimated. And then I went to I think another one, but I caught malaria on that one. I had to go in the hospital for a while in Saigon.

• 35:10Jack Murphy?

  And was that kind of the tail end of your Vietnam experience?

• 35:18Speaker 06

  Oh, Tail End. I just, you know, after the tour, I just deployed back to the United States. My time was up. I didn't, I didn't come back to the States and go back again. I just stayed the whole time for two tours.

• 35:31Jack Murphy?

  And so at this point, there's sort of, I have to imagine a bit of an inflection moment that, you know, you went through all this experience, three tours in Vietnam, basically. But at that time, post-Vietnam, it was not popular to be in the Army or to stay in the Army. But you chose to stay and pursue a Special Forces career. What was sort of that experience like for you after the war?

• 35:56Speaker 06

  I gotta admit, it was a little disappointing initially. Special Forces was not what I remembered as a kid, pumping up a rucksack in Germany with this AT. There was no money. If you remember, they had the oil crisis. You know, they always, you know, you hear the jokes about picking up pine cones at Smokebomb Hill?

• 36:15Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, it kind of was like that. And so I went to as many schools as I could because we didn't train very little. I had a, I was fortunate because I, I guess it was better than a lot of people experienced because I went to the Q course, which is much better now than it was then, by the way. I was disappointed in it then. But I went to Halo School, went to Halo Jump Air School. Then later on, I went, I was in 5th Group there. Went to, assigned me to another, oh, assigned me to a Scuba Team. I went to Scuba School. So I got some

• 36:57Speaker 06

  schools in and it was actually great because it was training. I mean, I didn't, we didn't train a whole lot because there was no money to train. It just, it was disappointing for me initially and it got better. We got a mission to go to Iran. And going to Iran, it was

• 37:17Speaker 06

  With an A-team, um, to train with Iranian special forces, they have to understand that those days the Shah ran the country. Very, very, I mean, he did some bad things, we found out later, but very close to American presidents and, uh, you know, members all about their support, just like Turkey and that line there because of the Soviet Union. But the experience there helped me later because not only did we train with them, jumped in with them, did a big exercise in a desert, uh, outside of, uh, Isfahan or someplace. But one of the missions was to link up with the Kurds.

• 38:01Speaker 06

  And the Kurds were on the border of Iraq and Iran. And our job was to have them support Iran, not Iraq, because Iraq was in the Soviet sphere. It changed later for me, it was the opposite. At that time, we supported Iranians. And, uh, the, uh, and that was a, that was a great exercise, uh, and, uh, they were wild guys when I met the Kurds the first time, which paid off later during the ISIS evasion. I, as a civilian, I went over there to help Kurds, ISIS. And, uh, that paid off, uh, because I told them the stories and we had talked around,

• 38:45Speaker 06

  you know, fires at night and stuff, drinking tea. And, uh, uh, it helped me out. But they, um, that was an exciting trip and I really enjoyed that. Understanding a little bit more of the geopolitics, even though I was, uh, I think I was still a lieutenant.

• 39:08Speaker 06

  Yeah, that, that, so that's how, that's how I got into the special forces part. We did a few exercises, but it wasn't, it wasn't like they do today. Today, the units do a lot more.

• 39:22Jack Murphy?

  And then the other interesting thing here is that you made the jump to Ranger Battalion, and this was like a period of time in the Army where officers and senior NCOs, it seems like they could kind of cycle through special forces and Ranger Battalion in a way that you really wouldn't see today.

• 39:40Speaker 06

  Correct. So remember, there was no, there was no branch. There wasn't an 18 branch for officers. It was an additional skill identifier.

• 39:47Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 39:48Speaker 06

  So I didn't go right to the Rangers. I went to the 101st, no, I went to flight school.

• 39:54Jack Murphy?

  Tell us how that happened.

• 39:56Speaker 06

  That was interesting. Yeah, well, I, I just, I was bored a little bit, to be honest with you. Someone came around and said, if you want to go to flight school, a buddy of mine, he wanted to go, he said, if we don't go now, Dave, we're not going to be able to go because we're going to be too old. They, they want lieutenants, warrant officers, they don't want captains. And, and so, um, I said, what the hell, I'll do it. My father, you know, he was still in the Army, he said, what the hell are you going to flight school for? Why do you want to do that? I don't know, I just want to try it out. So I did go to flight school, went down to Rucker, learned how to fly UEs, went to Cobra Transition, who had to fly Cobras.

• 40:37Speaker 06

  And I got stationed up in Campbell, uh, flying helicopters in the 158th Aviation. And remember, that was also an additional skill identifier, which is kind of dangerous as a power. Warrant officers, they knew that, right? So they'd have to kind of watch it kind of close. I only did about, I just stayed there two years, only did about, uh, 550 hours, something like that. But I enjoyed the flying, don't get me wrong. In those days, it was all nap of the earth. If you didn't come back with leaves in your skids, you're a wimp, you know, that kind of stuff. And, uh, uh, it was a great experience for me, but where it really helped me out.

• 41:21Speaker 06

  I transitioned back to the infantry to command an infantry company. And it helped me out coordinating with aviation. Remember it?

• 41:33Jack Murphy?

  Yep.

• 41:33Speaker 06

  The first airborne division there assault. You had to know helicopter operations, air mobile operation, you had to know. So being a pilot and being going back to the infantry, it helped me understand. And we trained our ass off. And when a guy would tell me, hey, you can't take this many guys, you gotta have the doors closed, not open, whatever, I'd say bullshit. I know you can do this, do it. And we, we really were good in that. And so I enjoyed being a rifle company commander in the first of five, second five oh third there in, in Campbell.

• 42:14Speaker 06

  And I went, I guess I went to the advanced course. And from the advanced course, infantry advanced course, I was selected to go to the Ranger, first Ranger Battalion.

• 42:28Jack Murphy?

  So that was something the army decided you needed to go do now?

• 42:33Speaker 06

  No, they didn't decide. I never let the army decide where I went until I got higher ranks, then you don't have a choice. I, because they'll send you where you don't want to go.

• 42:46Jack Murphy?

  I know.

• 42:47Speaker 06

  Right? And, and you know, you're supposed to salute and do it. I just, I, I, you know, most times, you know, I didn't want to go to a leg unit. I didn't want to go, you know, but it's certain things I wanted to do. And having been in Rangers in Vietnam, I, I wanted to go back to the Rangers.

• 43:04Jack Murphy?

  And the Ranger battalions were like kind of brand new at that time.

• 43:08Speaker 06

  Well, first batt was the only battalion.

• 43:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 43:12Speaker 06

  There's no second or third. There was no regimental headquarters. So Joe Stringham hired me. And.

• 43:23Speaker 06

  Great guy, great battalion commander, he's only about that tall. But he's the fastest road marcher on earth. And a tough guy. And, uh, yeah, so I, he hired me as a adjutant, which I didn't know anything about. So I never had a staff job. Remember I was platoon leader for, or attachment commander or platoon commander. Now, the whole time in the army, I never had a staff position. So I was very ignorant of that. I didn't realize how stupid that was to as a division commander, but I enjoyed the hell out of it and I got a lot of ground time. And so, uh, then I took over Hard Rock Charlie.

• 44:06Speaker 06

  Now, it didn't happen right away because I started the rugby team at the Rangers to, to play civilian, against civilian teams in the southeast on off-duty time. I broke my leg and so they wouldn't let me take, uh, take the command. But I ended up getting it later because the guy got relieved and I got hired. I don't know if you know Doc Donovan?

• 44:29Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, we all know of him, if nothing else.

• 44:32Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, great medic. He was, he was an E6 at the time, not a PA. Uh, but he, um, he was a good friend of mine, very good friend of mine when I was a company commander there. And, uh, I remember I was the S3 air because I had a broken leg and I went and got an operation, a shrapnel taken out of my elbow at the same time. Got it all, you know, trying to get it all done as fast as possible. And they were out at 29 Palms, training in the desert, the company that I was supposed to take. And someone called back and said, we need 200, two quart canteens, can you, someone bring them out? So I volunteered to go out there, even though I was the S3 air.

• 45:15Speaker 06

  Limping through the LA airport with a duffel bag and 200 canteens and crutches and not a damn civilian would help me. Went into the airport to the other, I remember that. And then, and then, uh, flying into Palm, I guess it's Palm Springs. And then a guy picked me up in a Jeep, took me out there, went to the CP in a desert. Limping around. I remember stringing, chewing out this company commander's ass and the guy was arguing back to him and he fired him on the spot. He was there with, uh,

• 45:47Speaker 06

  his, uh,

• 45:49Speaker 06

  XO dick pack. And, uh, who the hell's gonna take that company? What are we gonna do? He looked over at me and I looked like a rag bag with two casts on. On the arm and on the leg. He goes, Grange, when are you gonna get that shit off you? Tomorrow, sir. Roger that. All right. You're gonna take Charlie Company. So that night, Doc Donovan, Doc Donovan cut off both casts.

• 46:12Jack Murphy?

  Holy shit.

• 46:13Speaker 06

  And, uh, and yeah, I got the company. So, um, that was just fortunate. Good luck. I was in the right place at the right time, kicking out a duffel bag full of canteens. And, uh, we got back and I was still a little weak there, but I got better pretty quick. And, uh, I remember I had to jump into Panama about a month or two later and I,

• 46:40Speaker 06

  like, I was still messed up, so I had to tape like the bottom ankle, you know, with Caramel Air Tape around a German, you know, the German leather boots, the parachute boots?

• 46:50Jack Murphy?

  The tanker boots?

• 46:51Speaker 06

  They weren't tanker. I'd never be quite dead in a tanker boot.

• 46:57Speaker 06

  No, jungle boot on one foot and they were like German leather boots, but they were very thick and soft. Anyway, so, then I jumped up in Panama and broke it again. And then I had to keep it quiet because I, you know, I didn't want to get fired out of the company. A different battalion commander than, um, Willoughby. And I didn't want to get fired out of the company. And so, we had to the drop zone, Kudu, Kudu drop zone, whatever the hell it is in Panama. We had a road march 12 miles to.

• 47:27Speaker 06

  Fort Sherman, that sucked with the broken ankle. But I just kept my mouth shut. We went out in the jungle, just kept taped it every day and humping around. And then I'd cut the tape at night and that hurt like hell to get the blood going. And you know, you know how you do when you're trying to repair shit yourself. Doc Donovan kind of nursed me. And, uh, uh, but yeah, that's how that company, that's how I got to Hard Rock Charlie. You know what was great about it? We were able to train our asses off. We did a lot of urban training, mount training. And we were selected to be the Eagle Claw Company for Desert One.

• 48:05Speaker 07

  Tell us how that started to come about, how Charlie Company got brought into Eagle Claw and you got wound up with Dick Meadows and Beckwith and all those guys.

• 48:13Speaker 06

  Yeah. So that, that was a great experience. I mean, that shaped a lot of what I did, obviously, after that. I went ahead and, uh, I was asked to go to the, go to selection, uh, before that, when I was the S1 and, and Springham had me do a little special ops group. Um, and that was down there at Key West. We did an operation down there near the, where the scuba school is. Uh, but anyhow, on, on Desert, on Eagle Claw, I was at my dad's place. He

• 48:54Speaker 06

  was a division, he was a Fort Benning commander. And he, uh,

• 49:06Speaker 06

  I was there for Thanksgiving. And I got a call and they said, get my ass back to Hunter Army Airfield Savannah. And they sent a little plane to, uh, Beechcraft or C-12 or something, I don't know, to Lawson Army Airfield, flew me back to Hunter. And the company had been selected to be the security company for the mission with Delta.

• 49:34Speaker 06

  And uh, and then that's where all the training started. I mean, that's all we did.

• 49:42Speaker 06

  We were locked down hard.

• 49:45Speaker 06

  Uh, there was very strict opsec. Uh, the equipment we would get would come from different units, which was pieces of crap that we had to fix. All the maintenance we had to do ourselves.

• 49:59Speaker 06

  Uh, that's where we really kind of used the OSS uh, technique of

• 50:05Speaker 06

  take the, get the whole company and find out what everybody's abilities were in civilian life. It mattered what their MOS was in the, in the unit. Or, you know, what they were trained to do. Uh, it was civilian life. Who was a farmer, who was a mechanic, who was whatever. And that's how we were able to fix jeeps. Uh, do on the airfield seizures, how we'd be able to hot start stuff like bulldozers and other pieces of equipment, how we, I mean, everything, we were able to innovate everything ourselves with what we had on hand. We had no augmentation.

• 50:46Speaker 06

  And so we developed how to do the gun jeeps, how, how we were going to do the gun jeeps on these kind of airfield seizures, how to do the motorcycles. How to do the night landings with the MC-130s, which they really could not do right. You know, PVS-5 goggles just were new. We'd fly over a drop zone and throw out, in one door, I'd throw out a

• 51:10Speaker 06

  bundle of chem lights, all broken, you know, the light with the tape around it. The other door, first sort of throw out a bundle and we'd mark the leading edge of the drop zone, or I'm sorry, landing zone that way, and then in the next pass, the MC would land. That's how rudimentary.

• 51:28Speaker 06

  Or even at one time, there was a parachute op- uh option. So we had to rehearse that. So we rehearsed all the way until April. That's a long time. Locked down all over the West, all those airfields and everything. And you know, you can, you know, from the books and everything else about, you know, some of the problems on the rehearsals and working together and the jointness problems.

• 51:51Jack Murphy?

  That there's never a full mission profile rehearsal, right?

• 51:55Speaker 06

  Right, right. But again, I'm here, I'm a captain. I'm, I got kind of blinders on with what I had to do. I didn't really know all the big picture.

• 52:05Speaker 06

  I'll tell you one thing that was great, though, that really got my attention. Uh, we, one time we had, we had to go up to Pentagon periodically. So as a young, I wasn't a young co- uh captain, I had equivalent of four company commands, you know, with the attachment rifle ranger air, uh, platoon, air, air, uh, air mobile platoon, which is a captain. So I'd been around a little bit, but I go up there with Beckwith, the Ranger Battalion Commander, who at the time was, uh, Sherm Williford,

• 52:42Speaker 06

  uh, and, uh, Bucky Burrows.

• 52:50Speaker 06

  Good guy. I like him a lot. He's a wild man. I love him. I die for him. We almost died together a couple of times off duty. But anyway, so we go up there, we do these briefings. That's where we saw Marc Cinco, you know, the SEAL in the hallway. And he was, you know, he didn't have SEAL Team Six yet.

• 53:07Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 53:08Speaker 06

  So, you know, he's a wild man and he, you know, he's kind of jealous of what the Delta guys are doing. It's kind of funny. I'm trying to take and understand where everybody kind of sits in this

• 53:18Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 53:18Speaker 06

  arena. So Deckwith takes us back to a, this hotel over

• 53:26Speaker 06

  Crystal City or wherever the hell it was. We go in there and he opens a briefcase up. I thought he was going to bring out this plan, like to talk to us. There's a bottle of Jack Daniels.

• 53:37Speaker 06

  He's got a forty-five nineteen eleven half cocked and a map.

• 53:44Speaker 06

  That's all he had in his briefcase. And so he kind of briefs us up a little bit in this update because he had been over to the White House and a couple of other places. It was funny as hell, but I thought, god damn.

• 53:56Speaker 06

  It was kind of a new, a new thing, but I love those guys. They really, I mean, you know, there's a lot of stories about they did this and that. They were crazy and wild, but I'll tell you what, they, they knew their shit. They knew how to, if it wasn't for those, those guys at the time, those, the units would not have been created. There's no doubt in my mind.

• 54:15Jack Murphy?

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• 56:21Jack Murphy?

  Dave, but when Eagle Claw actually happened, you guys didn't take a Ranger company over. There was more like a couple squads, if I recall correctly.

• 56:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, there's both. So, so we had an eight man team. And one of my E6s and, and Little John, Sergeant Little John. And they went, they, they were on the Desert One mission. You know, going at the aircraft and secure the road that they were, Desert One was near. They're the ones that, you know, the law blew up the tanker truck and.

• 56:53Jack Murphy?

  Yup.

• 56:53Speaker 06

  The things, right? Which, you know, they were told to, I mean, they had, their job was to stop whatever. They did it like just good Rangers always do. But I was in Wadi Kenya, in a Russian airfield, old Russian airfield in Egypt with the rest of Charlie Company. And, and the battalion headquarters. And so we never took off. We're getting ready to load the planes, go ready to go. And they aborted. Because we're going to take Mansouria Airfield, which was a bitch. That would have been a tough mission because right across the road, we had, you know, a hundred and something guys. Biggest weapon we had was, and a tank was a law.

• 57:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, I had sixty machine guns, a couple in each jeep, motorcycle teams with, they had the laws and stuff, two man, you know, two bikes, two guys.

• 57:46Speaker 06

  Security perimeter. Across the road was an armored division.

• 57:52Speaker 06

  But, you know, we were happy air support and all that, but we didn't have much on the ground at all.

• 57:56Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 57:57Speaker 06

  So that would have, that would have been, because they would have been, you know, everybody would have known that they hit the place, right? They hit the embassy and they were extracted by the fifty threes back to the Manzaria extraction airfield.

• 58:08Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:09Speaker 06

  And then we had this CSAR mission to pick up anything that went down. So we were thin. And, you know, you figure accountability of all the hostages and all the Delta guys. But that's where all this airfield seizure and all those things started, and that's why they're today. It just was rudimentary compared to what they do today, but that's how it all started. But, um, let me tell you a sad thing. When we found in Waikiniya, we were, we were like sleeping in cots in these, uh, NIG bunkers. Big, they're large, I mean, I must have held several, I guess, at the time. And the mission was canceled, and I remember sitting in there.

• 58:53Speaker 06

  Almost every guy was crying because the mission was aborted. And I can remember to the day, and it's the worst sound, I can't stand it. The only sound I, I don't like, I hate worse than this sound. Well, thump of mortar, sniper round, a little scary too, right? But stripping ammo and a magazines into a steel pot to return home. You talk about a heartbreaking experience.

• 59:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:24Speaker 06

  I mean, it was terrible, terrible. Uh, that, that, that, uh, that, and all the way back, flying back, we were all, okay, what are we gonna do now? What, are we gonna try again? You know, I even drew up a plan myself, took it to the battalion, come here, let's, let's get this, let's talk to these guys, let's do something. Yeah, because everybody was, all that, keep in mind, all that rehearsal, all that training, and then it doesn't happen.

• 59:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 59:52Speaker 06

  And we were, I mean, cocked strong, ready to, ready to kick ass, confident, even though that it was so outnumbered so much, we knew we could just do it.

• 1:00:06Speaker 06

  Anyhow.

• 1:00:08Speaker 06

  By the way, we just had a reunion in our training facility at my farm this May with a lot of the forty-something guys that were on that mission.

• 1:00:19Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 1:00:21Speaker 06

  It was great.

• 1:00:24Jack Murphy?

  It's, uh, yeah, it's incredible talking to those guys and hearing all those experiences because, I mean, that really is like the birth of modern special operations came out of Eagle Claw, like the units that were created, the commands that were created and everything sort of flowed out of that, I think.

• 1:00:40Speaker 06

  You're right, and what happened is that it did start there, because that's when they started JSOC.

• 1:00:49Speaker 06

  Uh, and then Grenada, we can talk about that later, but Grenada then kind of finished off a lot of the stuff that had not been done yet.

• 1:01:00Jack Murphy?

  So calm.

• 1:01:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, that and communications and, yeah.

• 1:01:08Jack Murphy?

  Um, yeah, so tell us the next thing, I mean, you went to the Special Air Service selection at one point, right?

• 1:01:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, that was a great experience, too. So Deckworth wanted me to go to selection, which I was honored that he would say, try this out range, you know?

• 1:01:32Speaker 06

  We, you know, our, our selection is January, no, our selection is in the, in the spring and the fall.

• 1:01:39Speaker 06

  And this was like December, he asked.

• 1:01:43Speaker 06

  And there wasn't a course at that time. So he said, no problem, get your ass over to Sterling Lines in Hereford, Wales, in UK, and go to the SAS selection. So I said, hell, yeah.

• 1:02:00Speaker 06

  So I went over and they, they kind of screwed up on the dates because they, they, their selection, they start off with an NCO week to weed out, weed out a lot of NCOs early on. And, uh, because of the numbers. And it was kind of brutal. I just thought it was part of the course.

• 1:02:19Speaker 06

  So it was only officer there for that and, uh...

• 1:02:25Speaker 06

  No one really knew I was an officer. You didn't wear any rank or anything.

• 1:02:29Speaker 06

  And I was a major. I just got promoted to major. That's when I left Charlie Company. And um, so went through that, then it actually it started and all the officers showed up with about twenty different kinds of berets and all this stuff and the guards and this and that.

• 1:02:47Speaker 06

  So I went through the course, uh, and then they have, you know, as you know, just like our course, there's an extra week for the officers. People, a lot of people don't know that.

• 1:02:57Speaker 06

  And it's that's pattern after OSS type stuff.

• 1:03:02Speaker 06

  And uh, went through that and then stayed around for a little while, got badged, what they call it, you get your beret with a badge on it. You can go through the course and not get badged. I didn't know that at the time. But great training. Uh, I was in pretty good shape. Uh, I come back to the unit. I'm in the S3 shop as assistant S3 for Bucky Burris. Couple of the NCOs go, hey, sir, great job. You know, I understand you just finished SAS. That's how you got in the unit, da, da, da. You know, you didn't go through our course. I mean, I mean, this, this is equivalent. Our course is patterned, patterned after their course.

• 1:03:45Speaker 06

  Well, whatever you think, sir. I said, F it. So I went ahead and uh, told the

• 1:03:56Speaker 06

  deputy commander, said, I think it was Burris at the time, I gotta go to the course. I can't take this shit. So, so um, I went to our course then, I went through our selection.

• 1:04:10Speaker 06

  Now, well, that sucked, but doing both, but later on, when somebody goes, oh, this one's harder than that one. No, they do this, they do that. I said, bullshit. Here, here's the real answer to that.

• 1:04:23Jack Murphy?

  Could you expand on that a little bit, like for our viewers?

• 1:04:27Speaker 07

  Yeah, what's the real answer?

• 1:04:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, so they're very similar, by the way. Terrain's different. You know, Brecon Beacons in Wales. It's the only place I've been in a world where swamps are on top of the mountain. And you're wet five minutes after you start, no matter what day it is. It just sucks. And it was in January, so you know it really sucked because it was snow and ice and rained every day and it was terrible. Uh, but the maps. The, the, the British maps are immaculate. They're perfect. There's an orchard, a tree line, dirt road. And it's there. It's exactly like it. The Roman roads, they're, it's perfect. Lovely maps. And you know, it's all about orienteering.

• 1:05:15Speaker 06

  It's not really time, you know, it's not a time and distance type thing or pace camp thing. So I, um, uh,

• 1:05:27Speaker 06

  that, that is, that is different than West Virginia, where there is a lot of changes in the terrain because of logging or, um, building things, whatever the case may be. Uh, and the terrain is not as open or forests and stuff. So you really gotta understand where you're gonna saddle or a figure off a ridge or, you know, whatever. You gotta really know your stuff on that. Um, in the SAS, you come back to every night to the camp. So you get some hot chow and sleep in the, in the barracks.

• 1:06:11Speaker 06

  You know, you spend half the night driving back in a lorry, a truck, you know, to get to the camp. And you get up early as hell to get back out to the training sites. But it's still nice to be able to dry your shit out in a, in a heating room. In these special rooms that dry your stuff like in a thirty minutes.

• 1:06:29Speaker 06

  We're in our course, and I don't want to get too many details because some of the stuff they don't put out, but you know, you sleep out there, you camp out, you know, you're taking care of yourself in your own little tent and you don't go in. But other than that, they're pretty much the same. The officer week's kind of the same. We don't have a prior NCO week. They all start together. I think they pass more people than we do, at least then. My class, he had seven pass out of a hundred. Some classes, they had one or zero, some they had twenty. You meet the standard or you don't. It's pretty simple, really.

• 1:07:14Speaker 06

  Just you do it or you don't do it. And nowadays with GPS and everything, I mean, guys really have to get their head on right to go to it because, you know, units don't do that.

• 1:07:30Jack Murphy?

  Mapping compass.

• 1:07:32Speaker 06

  They brought it back, but I mean, it kind of, you know, you get pretty good at that stuff.

• 1:07:38Jack Murphy?

  So you graduate from both selection courses and now you are out of the S3 shop, I take it, and they they give you a job, or I should say a job, but a command.

• 1:07:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, B squad.

• 1:07:56Jack Murphy?

  So what was that like, landing in B Squadron?

• 1:08:00Speaker 06

  Oh, it was wonderful. Great guys. We did some reorganization when I was there, and that was, I don't want to go into, but it was, and some of the sort of majors wanted to do, and I wanted to do it as well, obviously. We did Grenada. Funny thing about Grenada, I mean, when I was getting ready to start, I wasn't there. We were going to do a training operation in New Zealand. En route to New Zealand, I took a week's leave early and went to the, did the Ironman competition in Hawaii.

• 1:08:38Speaker 06

  And my first Ironman. And near the end, halfway through the marathon, the last event, my father was out there. My mother, they were my support team. They took some vacation to Hawaii, and so they were my support team for the race. And my father met me at one of the water stops, and he said, your commander called, said, get your ass back to Bragg now. I said, shit, I'm almost done with this thing. Ask him if I can just get another two hours, and then I'll get in the first flight out of here. So he called him, and he said, Roger that. Run faster and get back here.

• 1:09:17Speaker 06

  So I did that, finished, got on a plane, got off to Big Island, got into Oahu, and flew to San Francisco and whenever they picked me up, I think in Atlanta on a little plane, and took me back to Bragg. Again, I can't go into all the details, but we went to Grenada. So I call that my fourth event of the Ironman.

• 1:09:45Jack Murphy?

  Well, what can you tell us about kind of like getting activated and getting spun up for an invasion of this island in the Caribbean?

• 1:09:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, so a lot of that's out for people to know now, so I can go into some of it. So, so, you know, my deputies had already, XO had already done a lot of the work, sort of majors, most of the stuff is all done. I just got briefed up and kind of did a review of the op order, and then we left. Landed at Barbados. Well, first of all, getting out of Bragg was a pain in the ass because loading ammunition and helicopters on the same planes, it was a little bit of turmoil there. We got out of there anyway, landed at Barbados, and then they wouldn't let us take the shit off the planes.

• 1:10:38Speaker 06

  And so remember, we're supposed to go in at night.

• 1:10:41Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:42Speaker 06

  Daylight's coming up.

• 1:10:45Speaker 06

  So the guys, the higher than level than me, were arguing about getting in and out of there to get on there.

• 1:10:53Speaker 06

  And so we went into daylight. We flew over the Marines that were doing the landing craft. I remember seeing a Marine landing craft in the Caribbean there.

• 1:11:06Speaker 06

  We're flying over as we're flying in to the area.

• 1:11:12Speaker 06

  Uh, some people are at a Hudson, at a point AKs at us like they're gonna shoot, some aren't. And the guys go, what are we, you know, what are we supposed to do? The rules of engagement were not very clear.

• 1:11:24Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:26Speaker 06

  Um, it changed where we're going in. We were, we ended up going to, supposed to go into Frederick. We go in and we get shot all to hell.

• 1:11:37Speaker 06

  And they would go around, come back around, get shot all to hell again, because we can't land.

• 1:11:44Jack Murphy?

  This was the prison where Jerry Boykin got injured?

• 1:11:48Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 1:11:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:11:50Speaker 06

  He was on, he was on, uh, yeah, he was with the tank commander or the Delta commander.

• 1:11:59Speaker 06

  Uh, as a three, he was a three there.

• 1:12:03Speaker 06

  And A Squadron, their mission, the other place, they got aborted, Fort, um,

• 1:12:12Speaker 06

  can't think of the name right now. You may have it in your notes. Uh, that got aborted.

• 1:12:19Speaker 06

  So they didn't go there. We, we, we were the only squadron that got in.

• 1:12:26Speaker 06

  And then we landed, had one bird go down. And then the other landed at Selina Sarefield on the end.

• 1:12:39Speaker 06

  We're regrouping. We had like seventeen guys wounded, some like Jerry Boykin, you know, they went on to landing the, some of the LPHs or whatever out there, Navy ships landed there. And then they joined us back in Salinas. The one aircraft that went down, pilots got killed, burned up. All our guys got off. Went out of forty-two assaulters we had, I think, whatever. Got seventeen wounded. So that's a lot of wounded for that size force. And

• 1:13:21Speaker 06

  I can remember at the end of the runway, the Rangers are jumping in now. Five hundred feet, whatever, they're jumping in and they're landing some of them in between the Blackhawk rotors. They're trying to tell them steer away, steer away. Luckily, no one got hit by a rotor blade being shut down. But that's how tight that was. And then we were gonna have another mission, hopefully to go in and do some stuff, because again, here we go. We wanted to complete the mission, but we weren't allowed to do anything else.

• 1:14:00Speaker 06

  So we took care of a wounded, linked up with the Rangers. Some of the guys that were hurt worse, you know, stayed on the ships, obviously, with the Navy care, because they had to advance next level of care. We did not. And we ended up doing a lot, lot of calls for air support for the SEALs, because I think, as I recall, they only had MX radios at the time on the mission, because they fast-roted into the governor's mansion.

• 1:14:41Speaker 06

  And there was a radio problem that several different units had talking to each other. That's why I was saying earlier that once JSOC was set up, they had not matured to the level where the jointness of communications and all the different functional areas were tied in tightly like they are today.

• 1:15:00Speaker 06

  So that was another good learning experience. I mean, the mission pretty much was accomplished. We didn't get to do Fedrick, but I mean, for the overall task force down in Grenada, I mean, the mission was accomplished. I wish we could have been able to do better.

• 1:15:15Speaker 06

  I'll tell you this, though, having been a pilot, I should say, an Army aviator. If we would have been at UEs, every bird would have went down.

• 1:15:25Speaker 06

  I don't think, I think one of the guys was counting, one of the crew chiefs or someone that on the birds that were on the Salinas Air Force Strip.

• 1:15:33Speaker 06

  None of them, because they all assembled there except for the one that caught on fire. Had less than like forty holes in it.

• 1:15:42Speaker 06

  If you didn't have the, you know, the leak-proof bladders, fuel bladders and that, it's not sealing. Things like that, it would have been really bad. I don't know why more people didn't get hit.

• 1:15:58Speaker 06

  There was a lot of fire against, luckily, there was no RPGs that I recall. Like Mogadishu, there was no air defense type weaponry. There was no, as I recall, 51 cal, stuff like that. It's almost all AK type fire. There may have been some medium machine gun, I don't remember.

• 1:16:24Jack Murphy?

  But I mean, seventeen out of forty-two operators, that's a mass casualty situation for sure.

• 1:16:29Speaker 06

  It is. They weren't all severely hit, wounded, though, but still, that's a lot of wounds.

• 1:16:35Speaker 06

  I know, because I mean, we had the Purple Heart Ceremony and I, you know.

• 1:16:41Jack Murphy?

  And so what was it like winding down that operation and returning back home?

• 1:16:48Speaker 06

  Uh, I felt a little bit like I did on Equus Law. As we, you know, they wanted to get us out of there and get us back to Bragg. We had no follow on mission.

• 1:17:02Speaker 06

  Remember the SEALs had that, they hit the radio station, they hit the governor's mansion. They had that one recon team lost out at sea. I'm sure they felt kind of the same way. They had some tough fights. I knew the guys very well. Romley was a, I think is his name, SEAL Team Six Commander. I did some training up at Dam Neck with them on fast ropes and, you know, on the ships. You know, we did some good exchange programs. We knew the guys pretty well. Uh, but I know we, we got in a C1, I think it was a 41 that landed then, because we had the whole Salinas Airfield secured. We flew back to Bragg.

• 1:17:43Speaker 06

  I remember sitting by Sir Major Mark Gentry.

• 1:17:47Speaker 06

  I just passed out then because I had slept since the beginning of the Ironman.

• 1:17:54Jack Murphy?

  That's unreal.

• 1:17:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was, uh, but again, good lessons learned. More, I think at the higher level because like I said, of the jointness, you know, requirements.

• 1:18:07Jack Murphy?

  Is the Goldwater Nichols Act came after that, right?

• 1:18:11Speaker 06

  Well, let's see, when that was, I'm trying to think of the year. They get Program 11 on the books. I don't recall the year, but it may have, it may have been then. I don't remember.

• 1:18:22Jack Murphy?

  Um, and so at the end of this, I mean, is this pretty much the end of your time as a squadron commander? And they're looking for you to go back to the conventional army?

• 1:18:32Speaker 06

  We got spun up on different things. I mean, I did, not all these have been released, but I think TWA 847 hijacking Beirut, I did that. You know, a few others.

• 1:18:43Jack Murphy?

  Was that the one where you guys surrounded the aircraft?

• 1:18:49Speaker 06

  Are you sure that's not Sigonelli in Sicily?

• 1:18:51Jack Murphy?

  I'm, I'm, I might be thinking of that one.

• 1:18:54Speaker 06

  Where they had to, on the Kill, Killarra, whatever the ship was.

• 1:18:57Jack Murphy?

  That was the ship, yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. No, this was, uh, they hijacked it in Greece.

• 1:19:02Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 1:19:02Speaker 06

  They killed the SEAL, a member on an airplane in Algeria, I think it was, and then they flew to Cyprus. We chased them, then they flew into Beirut.

• 1:19:13Speaker 06

  TWA 847. Pictures of the pilot, you know, the pilots hanging out the window, Hezbollah all over the place.

• 1:19:22Speaker 06

  That's when, uh, you know, Beirut was really bad. Hezbollah, Amal, and, you know, head of Green Line, all that stuff.

• 1:19:32Jack Murphy?

  What's, did you guys get, or did you feel that you got pretty close to being launched to do the aircraft assault?

• 1:19:39Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:39Jack Murphy?

  Really? Wow.

• 1:19:41Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, good training up, you know, just on the go training, just rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsals. Yeah, it was good. But I don't, I don't, I don't know if that's been released yet, so.

• 1:19:51Jack Murphy?

  Uh, how was that situation ultimately resolved?

• 1:19:56Speaker 06

  Um.

• 1:19:58Speaker 06

  Reagan? No, wait a minute.

• 1:20:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, I, I don't, I don't recall. I think it was, uh, cause you know what they did? They learned from Iran.

• 1:20:15Speaker 06

  Where, remember they dispersed all the?

• 1:20:18Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, moved them around. Yeah.

• 1:20:20Speaker 06

  So that they learned from that and, and they had people hidden all over. When they took the passengers, they had people hidden all over the place. So the only people on the plane were the pilots and the, and the flight attendants. My point was, who, who cares? Just get them.

• 1:20:36Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:37Speaker 06

  You know, worried about there'd be retribution now of killing, you know, the others, wherever they were. We get a lot of, you know, Beirut was a tough, tough area to work in for a long time for a lot of units.

• 1:20:49Jack Murphy?

  And you guys were sending people there?

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• 1:22:49Speaker 04

  Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

• 1:22:55Jack Murphy?

  Quite often back in those days, looking for hostages, not just them, but others, right?

• 1:23:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, I've had guys wounded and killed there.

• 1:23:05Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 1:23:07Speaker 06

  But special forces did a lot of work there. I mean, you know, they did a lot of work on the other side of the city with the Christians.

• 1:23:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they started doing the MTTs in like eighty-two, I think.

• 1:23:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, eighty-two, three, all that time when you had the bombing, you know, with the Marine barracks and you had the grenade and all that happened kind of at the same time.

• 1:23:28Jack Murphy?

  But.

• 1:23:31Jack Murphy?

  I'd love to ask you, you know, as we're talking about all this, sort of your reflections about that period and that era of counterterrorism, because I think that the unit was really kind of like writing the book on counterterrorism. Through no fault of your own, nobody at that time really knew how to do counterterrorism, and the things that existed during the War on Terror simply had not been developed yet. I was wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about that development a bit.

• 1:23:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, so the beauty about having an organization like Delta or SEAL Team Six or that, I mean, there's things you've got to be careful of because you could get this cocky attitude and, you know what I'm saying, you got to, like I told you earlier, you got to really watch the discipline. But you were allowed to, your guys would say, hey, sir, we can't do this. All right? And I'd go get the resources and have the guys figure out how to do it. Could it be explosives? Could be, you know, breaching? Could be sniper day

• 1:24:40Speaker 06

  night scopes? It could be body armor? It could be rope work, water work, you know, air and search, whatever. You were able to get the resources and figure it out. And because you had guys that had a lot of experience. I think when I was at an average age, I was like thirty-five years old. That's old for a unit. And you were able to figure out how to solve these problems. It was wonderful.

• 1:25:16Speaker 06

  But you know, eventually you kind of, there's always new things coming out, just like the drones now, right?

• 1:25:21Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:25:23Speaker 06

  But there's only so many ways to get in an airplane. There's only so many, you know, there's a

• 1:25:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:27Speaker 06

  I don't want to go any further than that, but I'm just saying you got some limitations, no matter how much stuff you solve. But anyhow, that was what was so wonderful about it is because all ranks were involved in figuring out how to solve problems.

• 1:25:42Speaker 06

  And whether it be airfield seizures,

• 1:25:46Speaker 06

  extractions, or how to reach different kind of targets.

• 1:25:53Speaker 06

  Working with different agencies.

• 1:25:57Speaker 06

  All those were great experiences.

• 1:26:01Speaker 06

  And, I mean, we really have some

• 1:26:05Speaker 06

  people that know their stuff and how to figure this out. I mean, it's, you're just so proud to be in these kind of units.

• 1:26:14Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they're literally writing the book. It's pretty cool.

• 1:26:17Speaker 06

  No, it really is. I mean, they still are. I don't want to take away from the newer generations that are doing that, but I'm just saying, there was so much to do. I mean, you think about it, we had Blue Light. With SF and a couple of other people, units kind of had an extremist type requirements around the world. But not a dedicated, not dedicated forces that were just so specialized in this.

• 1:26:44Speaker 06

  And we're allies, just like the SAS, you know, they did.

• 1:26:50Jack Murphy?

  Are there any other alerts or events that you want to get into before we move on to the next part of your career?

• 1:26:58Speaker 06

  You mean from that time?

• 1:26:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:00Speaker 06

  No, I think that's, I think that's fine.

• 1:27:03Jack Murphy?

  So the next stop for you was Korea, second ID?

• 1:27:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, I left the unit to take a battalion in Korea, infantry battalion on the DMZ, yeah.

• 1:27:13Jack Murphy?

  And what was that like being battalion commander in Korea in the mid 1980s?

• 1:27:21Speaker 06

  It was wonderful because everything is training there as well. There is no

• 1:27:30Speaker 06

  support cycle.

• 1:27:34Speaker 06

  And you have to, and they have to let you train your people because uh, the troops are only there for one year.

• 1:27:44Speaker 06

  So, you know, it takes a while to do unit training. People don't come to a unit in Korea

• 1:27:51Speaker 06

  with enough capability to perform properly in combat.

• 1:27:57Speaker 06

  So you don't have, you know, post support, you don't, you don't do, I mean, you get a couple of details, but basically, you train constantly. So I loved it. And as a battalion commander and some of the other like majors and above, you stay there. Uh, they want you to stay like two years. They don't want you just to stay one year.

• 1:28:20Speaker 06

  So, yeah, your, your, your, your leadership, same with the sergeant majors, that your leadership is pretty well trained up. But that's where I started Mungadai because I wanted to, it had such an impression on me about how you train a special unit because of my background. But more importantly,

• 1:28:46Speaker 06

  how do you train your young officers?

• 1:28:51Speaker 06

  To perform

• 1:28:54Speaker 06

  to your expectations of those of your troops in such a short period of time? They're given responsibility not only assigned for all the equipment, but to lead these GIs in combat if called upon.

• 1:29:10Speaker 06

  So I took that very seriously.

• 1:29:13Speaker 06

  So I said, I'm gonna do something special for the officers. Here's another reason. You get a second lieutenant in a unit in Korea.

• 1:29:23Speaker 06

  And who's his ranger buddy? It's really his platoon sergeant. Here's a 16, 17 year rucksack carrying NCO.

• 1:29:33Speaker 06

  And so that NCO and that officer has to

• 1:29:38Speaker 06

  connect. And that officer has very little time to gain any kind of respect for his troops in that short period of time.

• 1:29:49Speaker 06

  Very difficult for a lieutenant.

• 1:29:53Speaker 06

  So I knew I had to help the lieutenants. It was part of my responsibility because I was a direct report. And when you write an OER, Officer Report, or NCO, same thing. When do I see those guys perform? I go to the rifle range, I go to the motor pool, there may be an RTEP or some exercise. I see them here and there a little bit. But if I do a mongadae, I do a 72 to 96 hour training cycle. And I'm with them the entire time. I know that guy inside and out. So I'd set up an exercise where I'd take all the lieutenants and set up almost like

• 1:30:33Speaker 06

  a Ranger School Patrol, like a platoon, because you have a platoon of officers, basically. And I'd go with them. I put my XO in charge of all the support. In other words, how to support the exercise. And it was, I locked them down like isolation. So I'd give them missions. One, you know, three squad leaders, plus a weapons squad leader, platoon sergeant, platoon leader. That's how I'd organize. They would carry every piece of TO and E equipment that the battalion had, except vehicles. A dismounted tow, they'd backpack it.

• 1:31:17Speaker 06

  A 50 cal machine gun, they'd backpack it. An 81 mortar, they'd backpack it. And all their other stuff, machine guns, whatever, other stuff. And we'd go out in the mountains in Korea, and there's some good mountains over there. And we'd do three full days of training, live fire, and blank fire. We would do peal cast in the river up there in the DMZ. We'd do ambushes, we'd do patrols.

• 1:31:54Speaker 06

  Ass roping from helicopters, all kinds of stuff. And I wouldn't feed anybody, and I wouldn't let anybody sleep. Now, I'd go through the same thing, and the reason I had to do that, because I was a I was the langrader. The reason I had to do that is because I had to know where the red line was. Because, think about it, it's a little bit of a safety thing as well. Because, you know, seventy-two, ninety-six hours, that's a long time. And you're humping your ass off the whole time. No sleep, no chow. You'd have one chow break at the middle of the exercise, and I'd have the platoon sergeant calling a helicopter to bring the chow, and everybody's all fired up there in a perimeter,

• 1:32:38Speaker 06

  "God, we're gonna eat." And the rations for the platoon came in one, five-five-six, you know, large ammo cans. It all fit in that can. And every troop got a ball of rice, a kimchi leaf, and a sardine. And that was a chow for that seventy-two, ninety-six hour period. It wasn't to be a hard ass, it was just to induce stress, hunger, lack of sleep, and the unknown, to develop these guys and see what kind of grit they had. Now, we came back from this training, and it was constant, constant training with op four, or if it was live fire, obviously it was regular targets, whatever.

• 1:33:21Speaker 06

  I'd bring them into a small nest wall, one of the old Korean War-type nest walls. And I'd give them a steak dinner, and I'd have a keg of beer. Initially, they thought they were going in there to get another, you know, Charlie Mike, you know, continue the mission. I'd bring them in there, and after they ate, and they had a couple beers, and that, I'd sit them down, and give everybody a blank sheet of paper. And I would say to them, "I want you to do the following." And you have to understand, their minds are in a different mindset now. They've worked with these guys the whole time. They know everything about them, because this was miserable.

• 1:34:05Speaker 06

  It's harder than Ranger School. It's harder than SF selection. It's very difficult, this training. "I want you to write down..."

• 1:34:18Speaker 06

  If you're the battalion commander, what you would do right now to make it a better battalion?

• 1:34:26Speaker 06

  Question two. What are the three top resources you don't have to do your job right now?

• 1:34:37Speaker 06

  I want you to write down the five guys in this room that you would go into combat with.

• 1:34:47Speaker 06

  Now, in this situation, they're not going to necessarily say their buddy that they went to West Point with, ROTC, or OCS. They're not going to mention their buddy. They're going to mention the no kidding who they would go to combat with because their mind is set on who can handle it, who has the, as Beckwith would say, who's the right cut of cloth?

• 1:35:14Speaker 06

  I would take that information, and it was only for me.

• 1:35:19Speaker 06

  And I could look at those guys and compare it to what I saw in a motor pool, the range, whatever, in regular training, and figure out

• 1:35:29Speaker 06

  who the studs were, who's dependable, who's not a bullshitter,

• 1:35:37Speaker 06

  who's reliable, all that stuff, you know, you just, you just get, you just, it comes together for you.

• 1:35:44Speaker 06

  Now, when they left the mess hall,

• 1:35:48Speaker 06

  they were told, "You do not, you do not talk to any troop in the battalion about what you went through. You keep your mouth shut."

• 1:35:58Speaker 06

  Fully knowing

• 1:36:00Speaker 06

  that as soon as they get out of there, they're going to talk shit.

• 1:36:06Speaker 06

  But that's okay, because psychologically, I want the troops to know what their lieutenants went through.

• 1:36:15Speaker 06

  And the respect that they would have for those guys, those leaders,

• 1:36:22Speaker 06

  knowing that it was harder than anything we'd ask anybody in the battalion to do while during their tour in Korea, made all the difference in the world.

• 1:36:32Speaker 06

  That's Mungadi.

• 1:36:33Jack Murphy?

  I can see how, especially in a peacetime army where these lieutenants or captains are not getting combat patrols, they're not getting that kind of real-life experience, that in 72 hours, this is a way for you very quickly to assess your guys, also do this sensing session with them to figure out who the guys are and how to make the unit better, but also to build that cohesion. That's kind of difficult to do in that environment.

• 1:37:00Speaker 06

  You can imagine, you know, this, you know, team, like a team room, right? You get all these people together for a Friday night beer call or something, right? The camaraderie was through the roof. They loved each other. They would die for each other. And they felt really good about themselves and what they accomplished. Now, when I was a regimental commander in the Rangers, they did the same thing for the captains. And here you already got guys at a pretty high level of fitness, experience, because you can't be a Ranger company commander unless you've been a conventional company commander first. That's how they do it, just like platoon leader. So you already got a pretty high-notch guy of experience.

• 1:37:43Speaker 06

  So I had to make it harder. And then for battalion commanders, I did it as a division commander, which was a little more difficult because of the little bit more variety of MOSs, you know, combat, combat support, combat service support battalion commanders. But you know what gets the American soldier, what's harder than anything? This is my, again, philosophy, is the unknown. Here's why I say that. Everybody's used to being the first sergeant in formation and told what to do that day, this, this, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the way down the line. If you stand behind the formation, which I used to do all the time as a division commander,

• 1:38:27Speaker 06

  to listen what was put out, I'd just be in PT gear, you know, could tell in the dark who it was anyway. And it's amazing, Al, it just, they have to have that guidance.

• 1:38:41Speaker 06

  Where in a soft world, you don't have to do that, right? I mean, you get intent and it's... It can be in a conventional unit, but normally it's not. I mean, I tried to do that in Big Red One. So, there had to be a way to get these battalion commanders to think a different set of what to do and develop in their people and getting them ready for the unknown of combat. See, everything's about training and everything's about preparation for combat. Nothing else really matters because if someone dies, gets killed or hurt badly, and you go talk to their wife or their mom or

• 1:39:24Speaker 06

  whatever the case may be, you never forget that, right? And so, your responsibility is to accomplish the mission and keep them alive. When the smoke clears, you want your guys to get back up. So, it has to be hard. And it has to be continuous. And so, that's why I had to do those things. It was my responsibility to do it. And I know a lot of guys are doing them now still.

• 1:39:48Jack Murphy?

  And then after Korea, your battalion command, you went back to, or you went to for the first time Special Operations Command?

• 1:40:01Speaker 06

  War College, back to Delta as a deputy commander.

• 1:40:06Jack Murphy?

  Oh, okay. I got it out of order.

• 1:40:08Speaker 06

  I tell you what, I had the best... You know, when you're in the War College, I think, and I can't remember, right before graduation, everybody gets their orders. And everyone, "What did you get? Where are you going?" And I was so embarrassed about my orders because they were so good. I felt like dropping to my knees and praying to God. I mean, what happened here? I had orders to go to be the deputy commander of Delta, followed by the reger regimental commander.

• 1:40:35Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 1:40:38Speaker 06

  I mean,

• 1:40:40Speaker 06

  wha- what is there to complain about?

• 1:40:42Jack Murphy?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:40:44Speaker 06

  It was wonderful. And, and so anyway, so I went, I was able to go back to Delta for a year, the deputy commander. Luckily, that's when Desert Storm happened, I got to command Task Force Karana.

• 1:40:56Jack Murphy?

  Can you tell us a bit about that?

• 1:40:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, I mean, it was a combination, scud hunting.

• 1:41:03Speaker 06

  We had, there was two missions. Scud hunting and it was, you know, cutting, uh, communication cable, you know, underground cable from, in Iraq, going west to east and east to west and a couple of other places and getting rid of the scuds because they didn't want Israel to come into the war.

• 1:41:28Jack Murphy?

  Right, because Saddam was lobbing those into Israel to try to draw Israel into the conflict.

• 1:41:33Speaker 06

  Right, to break up the Arab coalition, except.

• 1:41:36Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:41:37Speaker 06

  Exactly. So that was a good experience. I'm not sure all that's out yet, uh, but that was, we lost some guys, we accomplished some good missions. Now, SAS was there as well. I do want to say this one part, though.

• 1:41:56Speaker 06

  What helped me out so much with working with the SAS, who were our neighbors.

• 1:42:02Speaker 06

  They had half, everything from the R- Frey's whatever to Jordan was ours. The largest part of Iraq. I mean, it wasn't as many enemy units, but it was the largest part.

• 1:42:15Speaker 06

  And they had the first 200, I think it was kilometers, from the border, and we had the deeper 200. So it was tough for us to get to the AOs, but that's where a lot of the stuff was, but

• 1:42:30Speaker 06

  I had such a good relationship with the SAS because of going through their selection and the exchange program that they call cross-briefs, that our unit used to do with their unit a couple of times a year on TTPs,

• 1:42:45Speaker 06

  that we just divided up the AO ourselves, they and the other colonel.

• 1:42:52Jack Murphy?

  I talked to years ago, I think it's General Wells was the Brigadier Commander of the SAS at the time.

• 1:43:01Speaker 06

  Well SAS is, no, he would have been, he would have been with, with the Ground Command or whatever they call it, Ground Group Command, who the SAS reported to. SAS is always, always commanded by a Colonel.

• 1:43:21Speaker 06

  So Wells would have been one level up.

• 1:43:24Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 1:43:25Speaker 06

  Yeah. And, uh, which is a key position, don't get me wrong.

• 1:43:32Speaker 06

  But our, we had, we were at RR Base and Air Base and they were down at Al Juf.

• 1:43:38Speaker 06

  But think about that task force green, what a love, I can get, I guess I can talk about a couple of things. So we had, uh, two of our squatters.

• 1:43:49Speaker 06

  We had agency support sprinkled here and there from different agencies.

• 1:43:54Speaker 06

  We had a Ranger Battalion minus. We had Task, Third Battalion Task Force 160. And we had unlimited access to an A-10 squatter.

• 1:44:07Speaker 06

  It was a wonderful task force.

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• 1:46:10Speaker 04

  going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

• 1:46:14Speaker 06

  That's where I really fell in love with the eight-tens. To do that mission. And we were able to accomplish the mission. That was a good one. We had a couple problems as the SCS did as well, but it was, again, a great, great, great deployment.

• 1:46:36Jack Murphy?

  There was a pretty sizable firefight that one of the squadrons got into, wasn't there?

• 1:46:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, barge wells.

• 1:46:43Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, a good friend of mine, but rest in peace. But he, yeah.

• 1:46:55Speaker 06

  I remember that night well when they get in the back.

• 1:47:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, any recollections from that that you can share?

• 1:47:07Speaker 06

  There's always controversy about do you extract somebody or not, right?

• 1:47:10Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:47:13Speaker 06

  And I don't want to get into the decision-making process on that.

• 1:47:19Speaker 06

  But it's a good example. You got to trust the guy on the ground.

• 1:47:27Speaker 06

  If he says, I need to be extracted, you got to believe him.

• 1:47:33Jack Murphy?

  We had one of the SAS guys on the show a ways back and he told the story about how, you know, Bravo 2-0, we all know what happened to them and they had to E and E. He said there's another team that went in and the team sergeant on the ground saw that the terrain didn't support a reconnaissance mission. It was just flat in every direction. They weren't expecting that. And he made the call to abort the operation. And that was very controversial, he said, at the time because there's a very, um, there's a lot of pressure for these guys to go out on operations. And that was a very controversial thing. But in retrospect, he was the guy on the ground and he absolutely made the right decision.

• 1:48:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I can understand it. So take the higher commands position.

• 1:48:21Speaker 06

  It was very difficult to insert.

• 1:48:25Speaker 06

  It had to be at night.

• 1:48:29Speaker 06

  We didn't have the night vision capabilities that we had, but not like we have today.

• 1:48:35Speaker 06

  You have to understand that.

• 1:48:38Speaker 06

  I mean, I just, and I thought about that because I remember in Vietnam bringing in helicopters at night.

• 1:48:47Speaker 06

  No GPS, no nods. Or in the middle of a monsoon. And you would talk them into an LZ by voice on your PRC 77 radio. By noise. And a postage stamp LZ, think about that a bit. To pick up a wounded guy or

• 1:49:10Speaker 06

  drop supplies, ammo, whatever. So in this case, going in that deep for us, it was over 200 kilometers one way.

• 1:49:20Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:21Speaker 06

  So you're endangering a crew on the assumption, to some people, and you can understand why they would have an assumption, that they really have to get out or not. I had to send a Black Hawk in to get a sick guy out. Didn't have to, but I made a decision to do that and it crashed in a sand dune right outside the base, coming in and killed everybody. So I understand that decision-making process, how hard it is.

• 1:49:53Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:54Speaker 06

  And some of the questions, do we evacuate this unit or not? Now, I heard the radio calls, I knew that it was in, they were in duress, but it's a tough decision. That's what you get, I guess, while you wear the rank. But I can see where the SCS, they ran on the same, same issue.

• 1:50:15Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:50:16Speaker 06

  But that team probably would have been rolled up in that kind of terrain, so it was a good decision to get them out.

• 1:50:21Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. So after Desert Storm, you are already slated to go and be the regimental commander?

• 1:50:29Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 1:50:31Jack Murphy?

  What was that like, being the RCO? Now, what year is this? Do we have three Ranger battalions by this time? Yes, we must.

• 1:50:39Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah, we have three Ranger battalions, Roger that. We don't have like the big support battalion I have now, the dogs.

• 1:50:45Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:46Speaker 06

  We don't have all that. Which I think is great. We didn't have all those vehicles. But I was the seventh commander of the Ranger Regiment, which was quite an honor. Because number one was Darby, number two was Merrill, number three was Downing, number four is Stringham. Yeah, six was Krenan, I'm trying to think, Taylor was the other one, and then myself. Now, they're up to 22 or three, I think.

• 1:51:16Speaker 06

  But that was quite an honor and

• 1:51:21Speaker 06

  again, a great experience. My, my, my, uh,

• 1:51:27Speaker 06

  how do you make Ranger training better? It's not easy, right?

• 1:51:33Speaker 06

  But it could be done, and we did.

• 1:51:36Speaker 06

  Here, here was how I had to start off of my mindset.

• 1:51:40Speaker 06

  Because we weren't at war, but we had to prepare for a lot of things. So I said to my officers, I said, "Look, what's our area of operation?"

• 1:51:52Speaker 06

  And they're looking at me like, "What a stupid question." But if you think about what the Ranger area of operation is, it's the globe. Right. It's the whole world. You don't break it down regionally.

• 1:52:05Speaker 06

  It's like Delta.

• 1:52:09Speaker 06

  So who runs those pieces around the world are the SINKs, or now the Combat Commanders, then the

• 1:52:17Speaker 06

  they changed the name of it. It used to be SINKs at the time, right? Commander in Chief, whatever. Anyway, they

• 1:52:27Speaker 06

  we didn't know them. They didn't know us that well. So in my mind, what we had to do is get a mindset of the SINKs to say, not do I need Rangers to do something in my war plan. The question is, how many Rangers do I need?

• 1:52:46Speaker 06

  I wanted them to want us in every theater.

• 1:52:50Speaker 06

  To do that, we had to be innovative to set up exercises

• 1:52:56Speaker 06

  everywhere we could. Every Marine Expeditionary Force also, First Meth, Atlantic. Second, or Second Meth Atlantic, First Meth in West Coast, and then Third Meth in the Pacific. So Roosevelt Roads, Second Meth. Twenty-Nine Palms for First Meth. Korea F for Third Meth.

• 1:53:18Speaker 06

  Then we wanted UCOM to want us, wanted SouthCOM to want us, we wanted CentCOM to want us. So we set up exercises that we had no money for in all these places. And to do that, we had to go there and talk to them with me and the three and store major say, "Look, we want to get involved in this operation." Like when I went to UCOM, it was easy because they had Dick Potter.

• 1:53:41Jack Murphy?

  Oh yeah, Dick Potter's a great guy.

• 1:53:43Speaker 06

  Great guy, good friend. And so he convinced UCOM to do an exercise and they paid for everything. I couldn't afford all those airplanes to parachute in a battalion here and there. Every battalion would go a couple of times to a different place. Patowawa, Canada, then they had their special force, you know, special ops command up there, or special forces command. Korea, just all over. And to get our name out, the word out, the Rangers are here, we're part of your team. You need us for your fight.

• 1:54:19Speaker 06

  So that was the philosophy. And I had really good guys at the commands hired than me that had supported the hell out of me. Like Steiner is a good example, all those guys helped. And so the Rangers was, regiment command was a great, great command. I mean, I just, it was lovely.

• 1:54:47Jack Murphy?

  So at the time, it sounds like it was, a lot of it was trying to sell the regiment to the big army, so to speak.

• 1:54:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, so, yeah, the big army, but remember now, also these joint commands and also the Marine Corps.

• 1:55:09Speaker 06

  Marines loved us.

• 1:55:11Jack Murphy?

  Really? That's surprising.

• 1:55:12Speaker 06

  It is. It is. But, you know, I had like 29 fire support guys from Lejeune that worked for us in the regiment.

• 1:55:20Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 1:55:21Speaker 06

  For support. Then you had Anglico, you had, you know, Battleship. You had other stuff that, you know, we parachuted in with live ammo from Savannah, Georgia, into Kuwait right after Desert Storm. It was a show of force mission with seven C-141s. All our air support in a live fire. It was battalion live fire. It was great. That all came from the Eisenhower and the F-18s. I mean, there were Marine pilots. They were Marines doing, they did other support force on it. Same in Korea. Did the same thing on a team spirit exercise.

• 1:56:02Jack Murphy?

  Anything?

• 1:56:03Speaker 06

  Doesn't help to keep Rangers in the garage. I mean, you got to get them out.

• 1:56:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they're rambunctious a lot too, so you need to keep them busy. Were there any alerts or call-ups or any other like memorable experiences from your time as the RCO?

• 1:56:21Speaker 06

  Regrettably not. That broke my heart too, because I was hoping that, you know, we'd have a mission, obviously that was like some of the Afghan or Iraq missions that we recently went through, 20 years. We had some contingency ones, yes, but nothing happened.

• 1:56:42Jack Murphy?

  And then the next stop for you was Deputy at SOCOM?

• 1:56:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, Deputy Commander Yususak.

• 1:56:51Jack Murphy?

  Yususak, okay.

• 1:56:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, and that, and there were a couple of things went on. I had to go down to Guantanamo Bay with the Marine Ready Company and SEAL Blue or Red Team, or I can't remember which one it was, and AfSoc 53s to evacuate the embassy in Haiti. But that was called off at the last minute. We trained at Guantanamo Bay to get ready for that. And then...

• 1:57:28Speaker 06

  It broke my heart also not to be able to help in Somalia. Cause I had just left the regiment when third bat went over, you know, the company did third bat in battalion minus with Delta. Uh, and I remember Garrison, the JSOC commander called me and said, come on over. He didn't know he was going to have to get forced out of there to leave, you know, when they drew down. But, uh, USAC was just to help me out a bit, you know, just to learn about the, uh, USAC requirements, cause they, you know, they do the admin log for the, for like the Rangers

• 1:58:13Speaker 06

  and the other, you know, Delta, whatever, where JSOC is a combatant commander to do it. USAC is the support, there's all the support and training and everything. So it helped me understand that a lot better than I knew before.

• 1:58:30Jack Murphy?

  And then there's a, maybe a bit of a homecoming, uh, going back to Germany where you kind of started off patrolling the hills with your dad and his A-team.

• 1:58:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, uh, I went back to, yeah, Bonnburg, a little north of there, but yeah, I was an assistant division commander for the third infantry division, Rocket of the Morning. And, uh, I realized that I had missed something along my career as a, as a infantry guy, a soft guy, I was probably a sophomore in infantry, but still my infantry most, a lot of the time. All of a sudden I'm in a heavy, heavy infantry division and realized I had never been in an American tank.

• 1:59:19Speaker 06

  I've been in a Russian tank, you know, like PT-76s in Vietnam, but I'd never been in one of our own tanks. So I had a big learning curve. And luckily, the discom commander helped me out quite a bit on the maintenance requirements and that. And I had a great division commander, General Holder, who ran Leatherworth later on and wrote 3.0, you know, the manual on maneuver.

• 1:59:52Speaker 06

  No, on operations, 3.0 operations. And he taught me about the maneuver and all that. He was a Desert Storm as a Cav commander, a very good, very good leader. He taught me everything about heavy stuff that he could. So I started off as an ADCS, which is support, and then I became the ADCM for maneuver. So that was a great learning experience, and I got an appreciation for the heavy side a little bit better than I knew before, because I had missed all that in my past experience.

• 2:00:26Jack Murphy?

  And then you took command of First Infantry Division?

• 2:00:32Speaker 06

  I did. But back to the 3ID, one other thing, though, is I got to do a partnership for peace operation in Ukraine, working with Ukrainian prior, just recently, Soviet heavy unit. And so that helped me out, what Holder did, to train me. But also, now that I go back to Ukraine doing these medical operations, training medics and EOD guys, I understood the Ukrainians a lot better. So it helped me out quite a bit. But you're right. So then I came back to the Pentagon, my only tour there, desk ops, did that for a while. It was a good job being a Pentagon, even though I hated it, the Pentagon it is. But

• 2:01:16Speaker 06

  it was operations, mobilization, readiness. So you can't be dead for a job at a Pentagon. And learned a lot there as well, because I didn't know anything about the big army in that regard. And

• 2:01:32Speaker 06

  And the Big Red One, the history of that is phenomenal. And again, I didn't understand that until I prepped and went to that command. And what was very interesting about being a division commander there, I almost immediately went down to Bosnia, Herzegovina, as the third rotation that they had to run Task Force Eagle. And that was quite an experience. We had, I think, 27,000 soldiers, including the, I think it was 14 nations that were on our team.

• 2:02:17Speaker 06

  You had a French sector, you had a British, and you had US. And of course, we had the US sector. And that was a tremendous tour, and it was peace enforcement, thank goodness, not peacekeeping. Big difference. Chapter six and chapter seven, big difference. So we had to use force, we did.

• 2:02:43Jack Murphy?

  Any times that stand out for you where you did have to go guns hot?

• 2:02:51Speaker 06

  Yes. So a couple of times, we had to shoot tires out on vehicles moving, special police and derelicts up to cause riots and overthrow mayors and different things that they were doing. See, the Dayton Accords covered the military, but they didn't cover the special police very well. So that gap is where they did all their black marketing, all their abuse to other factions, whether it be Croatians or Muslims. And that's the sector, most of the special police was Muslims and Serbs. The Berzko riots happened then. That was a very bad time.

• 2:03:34Speaker 06

  That one, we had, I remember Apache hit by fire. I remember one of our outposts by the bridge there was almost overrun. I had a pretty, the company commander give them a order, a fire, he had to. We did fire on some windows where snipers were in in the buildings. We had to seize a lot of, a lot of equipment, search stuff. A couple of the things that we did that I want to get into for the public. Yeah.

• 2:04:16Speaker 06

  One thing I found out was invaluable is that they had special forces out, out over there, working some of their teams on some of the missions that they had. And I, I knew some of the guys obviously very well. So I incorporated them quite a bit of my operations in my sector, which helped us prep certain areas we're doing, going to do things. But, you know, we'd have things where they, they would have a riot and they would Molotov cocktails, catch mechanized vehicles on fire and you'd, you'd tell your partner, country, I won't mention the country, you know, you can't fire, that's a, that's

• 2:05:01Speaker 06

  a, that is a threat of death. You can, by rules of engagement, you can engage. They wouldn't do certain things, so they'd have to use an American unit to run tanks over cars or whatever we had to do to suppress the riots because of, they were using deadly force.

• 2:05:25Speaker 06

  During the Big Red One time, I had to remember the hostages taken up in Macedonia. I had three.

• 2:05:34Speaker 06

  Three cavalry troops taken hostage on patrol. So that took some time getting them back. Um, I don't know if you remember that.

• 2:05:48Jack Murphy?

  I don't.

• 2:05:48Speaker 07

  I don't either, no.

• 2:05:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, so what happened is, uh, you know, it's kind of an interesting thing. There's different maps. Uh, we were working off three different kinds of maps. The borders aren't all the same. I just, who made the maps and who, who honors what. But it was a very interesting time there. That, that's after Bosnia, that's, uh, during Kosovo. And, uh, we had the second down there. Uh, and that's where, when we went from Blue Helmet, that was a peacekeeping, a peace enforcement, to a peace enforcement. So you went from Blue Helmet to Kevlar.

• 2:06:30Speaker 06

  Now, we didn't have all the equipment they, they needed to, you know, peace enforcement. So we had to move some stuff down there quickly. But anyway, we had a cavalry patrol, vehicle patrol. They were ambushed. Three guys were taken hostage. And it took a while to get them back. Jesse Jackson, believe it or not, was the one that, uh, went to Belgrade, Serbia, to argue about getting the guys released. We met them in Croatia and they got out. But that could have went bad. Uh, very interesting tour in regards to walking, you know, you spend a lot of time going down

• 2:07:10Speaker 06

  once a month, walking a patrol with the squad, uh, on the, uh, on the border. They had a tough, a tough go at it. Uh, it's one of those situations where you gotta tell your guys, look, we got a lot of rules of engagement, you have to honor them. You know, there's no war crimes here, you don't, you know, watch civilians, you gotta really be careful, you know, you do. Migraine makes me miss out on the moments that matter. So I asked my doctor about saying yep to veyepdi.

• 2:07:42Speaker 00

  Eptinazumab J.J.M.R. An IV infusion given every three months that helps prevent migraine attacks in adults. Don't receive if allergic to ViEpti. Get help right away for allergic reactions like rash, swelling of face, lips, tongue, or throat, trouble breathing, hives, or facial redness. Tell your doctor if you have constipation that is severe or associated with severe or constant belly pain or swelling, vomiting, or bloating. If you have increased blood pressure, or color changes, pain, or numbness in fingers or toes. Common side effects are stuffy nose, scratchy throat, and allergic reactions. Tap the ad to see how many migraine-free days you might reclaim and see the full prescribing information at ViEpti.com.

• 2:08:21Speaker 04

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• 2:08:45Speaker 03

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit Spinquest.com for more details. This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, "Sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio." If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might

• 2:09:28Speaker 03

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• 2:09:40Speaker 06

  What do you have to do? I said if you're in a bind, and you gotta make a decision as a corporal, you gotta take care of the guy on your right and your left. You made the decision, and execute, and I'll back you up. I mean, because people put some pretty tough situations like that. You guys know that.

• 2:09:58Jack Murphy?

  Definitely.

• 2:09:59Speaker 06

  It's not easy. That's the only thing you can really do, because in a second or two, decisions have to be made at life or death, and you can't pull out a card and read 13 rules of engagement.

• 2:10:11Speaker 06

  If you recall during that time, we had Pristina Airfield where the Russians came out of Bosnia, came down and took the airfield. They would let the Brits or anybody else in there. I don't know if you remember that.

• 2:10:22Jack Murphy?

  There's a big standoff, I remember. I do remember that part.

• 2:10:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, big standoff. And some other stories I'd love to tell you, but I really can't. But one thing that I can tell you is that we were ordered to do something about the Russians in Pristina. There's a lot of talk about a big fight, all that. We ended up taking one Black Hawk, flew up, landed, got surrounded. And everybody thought we were crazy, but I actually had a plan because I knew the commander that was on the ground from my intel guys that I worked with in Bosnia. Because I had that, I commanded 3,000 Russians

• 2:11:08Speaker 06

  in Bosnia, 3,000 Russian paratroopers. And those were the guys that took Pristina Airfield. Because of that relationship, not because I was tough, just that relationship, we were able to make a deal with them after a couple shots of vodka and some slices of fat, you know, the typical Russian way they drink. Made a deal that the Brits, the Germans, Italians, Americans could use that airfield. They could be in charge of it. They could even have their flag higher on the terminal than we do. But you gotta make a deal with these

• 2:11:51Speaker 06

  guys because we're both superpowers and you gotta behave like one. And

• 2:12:01Speaker 06

  And by the way, your battalion commander that's down here in Kosovo with the force gave the Germans and Italians a lot of crap about following orders. I understand the day after tomorrow, you're gonna go to see our American commander. And when you see that American commander, you better salute. You better do whatever he tells you to do. Because he's working. You're working for the Americans. And we're both the superpowers. And I'll make sure you have wood for your stoves, and if you need food, water, and all that, oil, whatever you need, I'll take care of it. But don't screw around with the American commander. Do what he tells you. And we got it solved.

• 2:12:45Speaker 06

  But you know, it wouldn't have happened, I don't think, if we didn't have that relationship where they worked for us in Bosnia. Because we established, you know, we parachuted, even I was in a leg unit, we parachuted together. Stuff like that. I don't know if you ever used a Russian parachute, I wouldn't recommend it.

• 2:13:02Jack Murphy?

  I know.

• 2:13:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, anyway.

• 2:13:06Jack Murphy?

  I, so, tell us about, kind of, the run-up to your retirement. And it sounds like you've stayed, you've stayed quite busy, uh, after your military career.

• 2:13:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I got out of my own accord. I didn't have to get out. Uh, it was a tough decision for me. Uh, I spent a whole night with my dad talking about it. Because he was, you know, my main mentor.

• 2:13:34Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 2:13:35Speaker 06

  All those years, he was in, forty-two years. But I had young kids, I mean, you know, most of my peers, their kids are in college or off, whatever, doing civilian work or in the military themselves. My kids are in grade school.

• 2:13:54Speaker 06

  So, and they wanted to send me also, that's one reason. The other is they wanted to send me back to the Pentagon. I didn't really want to do that. I wanted to go to Fort Benner or something and train lieutenants and sergeants and stuff like that. I was probably spoiled, I gotta admit it. And I just thought it was the right time to, to leave. And I did. It was not an easy decision. But that's, that's why I did it. I don't regret it, except for nine eleven. And when nine eleven happened, in my mind, I thought I should be

• 2:14:36Speaker 06

  leading some kind of an attack on Baghdad. I felt that, you know, maybe I didn't make the right decision. But what if I was in a Pentagon and couldn't go in the field? That'd be even more measurable.

• 2:14:47Jack Murphy?

  True.

• 2:14:48Speaker 06

  So it was probably a good decision.

• 2:14:51Jack Murphy?

  I mean, it's, it's an incredible career from, what, nineteen sixty-eight or sixty-nine to about two thousand? Is that in the ballpark?

• 2:15:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, I actually, I actually, I actually went to the eighty-second in seventy, like January seventy of, and then retired at the beginning of two thousand.

• 2:15:10Jack Murphy?

  Yep. With conventional infantry, special forces, airborne, Ranger, Delta, back to conventional infantry. I mean, it's, it's incredible. Um, tell us what you've been up to since retirement. You've mentioned training, you've mentioned going and working with the Kurds, working with the Ukrainians. What, what's keeping you busy, uh, since retirement?

• 2:15:33Speaker 06

  Well, actually, I ran, uh, I ran the McCormick Foundation in Chicago for nine years. And that was a great transition from the Army. Cause a lot of people say, how can you be a philanthropist when you used to run around the military killing people? Well, as you know, in the military, you don't kill that many people. Ninety percent of your time, you're protecting people. You're doing that type of work. You're not killing people.

• 2:15:58Speaker 06

  And you're doing something for humanity, which is what a philanthropist does in a nonprofit, in a charity, or whatever the case may be, whatever you want to call it. So that was a good transition. And then I was on several boards and I went and ran a big medical company, 11,000 people, a clinical research organization here in Wilmington, North Carolina. That was for the for-profit. So I went from government to nonprofit to for-profit. Then I ran two other medical companies after that.

• 2:16:31Speaker 06

  Then I started my Osprey Global Solutions Company, which does training in remote area logistics and medical work. I bring together tier one, mostly some tier two operatives, and we do things around the world. And also had a training facility outside of Wilmington, North Carolina, about an hour south of Fort Bragg. So the first, we did three major missions. We did a lot of small ones, but the one major one was ISIS coming into Iraq. In 2016 and 17, off and on, I went to Kurdistan and worked with the Peshmerga on some advice,

• 2:17:15Speaker 06

  but mostly in medical training. We brought supplies over plus medical training because they didn't have anything. But remember, they're the only guys that held the line. So I loved them. And so we did that, and then we went to help the displaced Christians from north of Mosul. And a couple of the churches there, we brought, they were destroyed inside.

• 2:17:41Speaker 06

  We brought over bells, you know, the church bells, big 300 pound bells.

• 2:17:48Speaker 06

  And so on. So one of the most memorable accounts I had was in 2017 on Easter. We had mounted two bells in two, one church about 800 years old, the other one, gosh, it had to be, it was older than that. Yeah. Some say 1100, I don't know, but it was old. And on Easter, all those families came back to church in that village. Every building was, every home was destroyed, but they went to church just north, just outside of Mosul, north Mosul. And they rang those bells and I know ISIS could hear it, which was like, you know, one of those things.

• 2:18:27Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:18:28Speaker 06

  And they, and, uh, because the persimere reoccupied the area, you know, they kept advancing, just like the guys in the south with American advisors did. And so that was a good experience. And then after the airlift happened in Afghanistan, evacuating people, we were a little bit involved in that. Uh, but where it really got hard, we continued to work for two years on the ground evacuating HPTs. You know, these high value targets of ISIS, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Al Qaeda network. That was hard. You, you can imagine from your backgrounds, the network required to evacuate people by

• 2:19:10Speaker 06

  ground, out of country, into other countries that are not so friendly either, right? Tajikistan, Pakistan, and Iran. And move and hide others that stayed in country continuously for two years.

• 2:19:28Jack Murphy?

  It, it sounds almost like a, uh, non-assisted recovery route, you know, like you're getting downed air, uh, fighter pilots back to friendly lines almost.

• 2:19:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, it is. And luckily they, they had a couple underground railroad type things for Christians in the old days. And then there's some other means, but I want to get into it because it's actually, it's still going on. But, uh, we never lost anybody. We got, and you know, it's not just getting a principal out, you gotta get the wife and usually, you know, the average is four kids per family.

• 2:20:01Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:20:02Speaker 06

  So there's six packs right there, you gotta get out.

• 2:20:06Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:20:07Speaker 06

  And you're going through several different areas of control of bad guys, and people ratting on each other. We even did one by small air and ground together at a country. That was very tough. I didn't think it would work, but it did. And it's because of the assets were so good.

• 2:20:30Speaker 06

  So that was, and then Ukraine started. So when the invasion happened in February 22, we were doing both. We were helping evacuate people out of the front lines in Ukraine, orphanages, elderly and disabled to Western Ukraine or Romania, Slovakia, Poland, whatever. And then it transitioned into, over the last several years, so now we've been operating about three and a half years over there, to trauma training, TCCC, you know, medical training, and specialized EOD.

• 2:21:09Speaker 06

  Not conventional wheat fields, blood power fields like that, big thousands of hectares, but villages that changed control by Russians and Ukrainians, where Wagner Group, Chezdiens, or other bad guys, you know, would put insidious booby traps, IEDs, whatever you want to call them, in soccer balls, dolls, refrigerators, baby cribs, terrible things, to terrorize the locals, you know, helping the EOD on those type of IDs. So that's been very rewarding, and we're supposed to go back over here pretty soon again for the 13th time.

• 2:21:53Jack Murphy?

  So, I mean, I'd love to ask you the question, Dave, sort of what I asked you about your LARP experience in Vietnam, but now, older, wiser, a lot of experience in the government, out of the government, the nonprofit space, the commercial space. Any big reflections, big takeaways that you'd like to share with people?

• 2:22:18Speaker 06

  A couple. So just like, it's hard to do a mission unless it's a very specific, like a hostage rescue as an example, but even those, it's hard to do any kind of a military, I'll start there, military mission, unless it's joint, especially today, and it's a mix of heavy, light, and soft, or air, ground, and sea. It is some kind of combination. And if you have experience in those, you can understand it and do it better. Just like I told you about the aviation and ground, that experience helped me out a lot.

• 2:22:57Speaker 06

  Border ops, the SEALs and Delta, Rangers, they're working together. That helps you out a lot. And the tank, sometimes you want a sniper at a point.

• 2:23:08Speaker 06

  Checkpoint, overwatching it. Sometimes you want a M1 tank. Depends what you want to accomplish. Kinetic, non-kinetic, whatever. So that, that, that makes really helping out in the military. And I look at the civilian life the same way. The experience in the government, experience working in the nonprofit sector. You know, nonprofits are all over the world. These international organizations are everywhere. You're gonna bump into them, you know that, when you're doing government ops.

• 2:23:39Speaker 06

  And then if they're for profit, understanding the economic requirements. So when you go to war college as an example, they teach you doctrine, the acronym DIME, D-I-M-E. I think it's changed a little bit, but I, but that, just use that. Diplomacy, information with slash intel, military and economics.

• 2:24:06Speaker 06

  We don't always follow that doctrine. I don't think we did in the last administration. But if you don't combine that all the time, you're, you're at a disadvantage. So, so as an example, what's, in the United States of America, I look at the CONUS here in the United States as a rear area of operations. Then you look at the close fight, you look at the deep fight. Just like Ukraine has got the close fight with the trench line, the deep fight, the blown up strategic bombers, the blown up bridges, the Black Sea fleet, whatever. And their rear areas, of course, their homeland was not occupied

• 2:24:49Speaker 06

  and protecting that with first responders and everything else from the airstrikes, Shahed missiles, et cetera. In the United States, we have actually the same problem.

• 2:25:00Speaker 06

  First, we had the open border.

• 2:25:03Speaker 06

  So now we got sleeper cells, you know, in the United States, the stuff that you probably wouldn't have. You're gonna always have some, but not like we have now.

• 2:25:11Speaker 06

  But what is the biggest vulnerability on a war machine? If we go to war of China or Russia?

• 2:25:17Speaker 06

  Or the American people just way of life. And that is first medical with the amount of drugs that are made overseas and controlled by China and other some other places and rare earth minerals and rare earth elements. The magnesium, the graphite, the nickel, the copper, the germanium, ilium, all the stuff that's for night vision goggles, that's for X-ray machines and CAT scans in hospitals, the stuff for the F-35 fighter, your cell phone, your computer, the batteries and whatever. We are on our ass on that for the last four decades.

• 2:26:01Speaker 06

  China's monopolized that. Now, I haven't been a division assistant division commander for support without certain...

• 2:26:10Speaker 02

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• 2:27:25Speaker 03

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• 2:28:08Speaker 03

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• 2:28:13Speaker 06

  There are things you can't run tanks and APCs and helicopters and all that. Well, it's the same thing in the industrial military base of the United States. You cannot do it without access to these raw materials. There's been six presidential directives put out on this subject I'm talking about, and we're just now trying to get our stuff together. So the United States of America is in a tough position right now. You know, China just cut off, I think, seven rare earth elements. They don't have to fire a missile, they just pull the lever. You think COVID was bad on what happened to the general public? I mean, if you had something like this go with the medicine supplies, it'd be like 5X.

• 2:28:57Jack Murphy?

  Yep, yep.

• 2:28:59Speaker 06

  And, you know, the industrial base to make all these drones and Patriot missiles and all the things that we have to do, you cannot do without raw materials. So we're playing catch-up right now on secure supply lines. This is a big deal. So in the civilian, I'm working on some of these projects in DC and with other companies on this matter. And I didn't realize, I've been doing it for about three years, three years ago, just how serious it is. Now luckily President Trump's doing something about it, but you just can't dig a mine and build a processing plant and all that overnight.

• 2:29:40Speaker 06

  So it goes back to readiness, no difference than the army. It's readiness. Country has to be ready, just like the military has to be ready. So this is a big deal and I'm trying to contribute where I can and American people have to be aware of.

• 2:29:59Jack Murphy?

  Dave, is there anything else I failed to ask? Anything else that you'd like to mention before we wrap up tonight?

• 2:30:07Speaker 06

  No, I think that, you know, a show like yours and the others is just another way to get some awareness out, its opinions, you know, not everybody's going to agree with what I say, that some will agree, but it's good to share this and I appreciate what you guys do and I think it's really important and I appreciate, you know, the opportunity to be on with you.

• 2:30:29Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, thank you, Dave. Really appreciate your time and spending your evening with us. It's been a great, widely all encompassing interview here as we went through as much of it as we could. Tell folks out there where they can find you if they're interested in working with Osprey Global Solutions or some of your other endeavors. Where can folks go to find you?

• 2:30:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, so there's a website, Osprey Global Solutions. They just go to that website and it talks about some of the stuff, contact numbers and that. And again, you know, we operate, we operate in a training site. We do a lot of R and D there, drones, robots, tied into satellites, armament, a lot of medical training, live tissue training, things like that, that units do that makes a difference that a lot of civilians, we rehearse everything here before we go overseas, just like you would in a Ranger Regiment. You know, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, and then we go. And it's 95% veterans.

• 2:31:37Jack Murphy?

  So we'll have some links down in the description of this podcast that you guys can go and check out. Anything, Dave?

• 2:31:44Speaker 07

  No. Thank you so much for your time tonight. We really appreciate it.

• 2:31:48Speaker 06

  Hey, appreciate you. Thank you so much.

• 2:31:51Jack Murphy?

  Feel free to stay in touch and everyone else, we will see you guys next time. Thanks for joining us tonight.

• 2:31:59Jack Murphy?

  Hey, guys. I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week. It's going to come into your inbox and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once a week email. It'll slide into your inbox and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week.

• 2:32:39Speaker 07

  It's really good. Checking it out.

• 2:32:42Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Go there and you enter into your email list or you enter your email into the little thing on the website and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support and hope you'll consider signing up.

• 2:33:07Jack Murphy?

  The link will also be down in the description if you're looking for it there.

• 2:33:11Speaker 07

  And that's teamhousepodcast.kit, K-I-T, Kilo India Tango.

• 2:33:17Speaker 00

  Migraine makes me miss out on the moments that matter. So I asked my doctor about saying yep to virepti, eptinezumab, JJMR, and IV infusion given every three months that helps prevent migraine attacks in adults. Don't receive if allergic to virepti. Get help right away for allergic reactions like rash, swelling of face, lips, tongue, or throat, trouble breathing, hives, or facial redness. Tell your doctor if you have constipation that is severe or associated with severe or constant belly pain or swelling, vomiting, or bloating. If you have increased blood pressure or color changes, pain, or numbness in fingers or toes. Common side effects are stuffy nose, scratchy throat, and allergic reactions. Tap the ad to see how many migraine-free days you might reclaim and see the full prescribing information. And at F I E P T dot com.

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  This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, "Sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio." If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple.

• 2:34:54Speaker 07

  You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it. Show.com backslash join.

• 2:35:29Speaker 00

  Migraine makes me miss out on the moments that matter, so I asked my doctor about saying yep to V I E P T, eptinezumab J J M R, an IV infusion given every three months that helps prevent migraine attacks in adults. Don't receive if allergic to V I E P T. Get help right away for allergic reactions like rash, swelling of face, lips, tongue or throat, trouble breathing, hives or facial redness. Tell your doctor if you have constipation that is severe or associated with severe or constant belly pain or swelling, vomiting or bloating. If you have increased blood pressure, or color changes, pain or numbness in fingers or toes. Common side effects are stuffy nose, scratchy throat, and allergic reactions. Tap the ad to see how many migraine-free days you might reclaim and see the full prescribing information at F I E P T dot com.

• 2:36:14Speaker 04

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• 2:36:43Jack Murphy?

  This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, "Sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio." If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at spreaker.com.

• 2:37:27Jack Murphy?

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• 2:37:39Speaker 00

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• 2:38:07Speaker 02

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  Tap the ad to see how many migraine-free days you might reclaim and see the full prescribing information at yep-ti.com.

• 2:38:20Speaker 04

  Say yep to yep-ti. Yo, it's Bluff here. I've been giving out key-sized candy bars to all the kids all day, and luckily karma was right around the corner. This Halloween, Spinquest is giving away a scary-good deal: $30 for $10 coin pack. They have over 1,000 games available, and with instant cash prize redemptions, there's no waiting like those other schmucks. Don't miss out. Go to spinquest.com or download the app right now.

• 2:38:46Speaker 03

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:38:53Jack Murphy?

  This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, "Sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio." If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at spreaker.com.

• 2:39:36Jack Murphy?

  Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

• 2:39:48Speaker 00

  Migraine makes me miss out on the moments that matter, so I asked my doctor about saying yep to yep-ti, eptinezumab J.J.M.R., an IV infusion given every three months that helps prevent migraine attacks in adults.

• 2:40:00Speaker 02

  Don't receive if allergic to yep-ti. Get help right away for allergic reactions like rash, swelling of face, lips, tongue, or throat, trouble breathing, hives, or facial redness. Tell your doctor if you have constipation that is severe or associated with severe or constant belly pain or swelling, vomiting, or bloating. If you have increased blood pressure, or color changes, pain, or numbness in fingers or toes. Common side effects are stuffy nose, scratchy throat, and allergic reactions.

• 2:40:22Speaker 00

  Tap the ad to see how many migraine-free days you might reclaim and see the full prescribing information at iepd.com.

• 2:40:32Speaker 02

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Kris Mornings Pumpkin Spice Latte and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spin Quest. They have over a thousand different slots in all my favorite casino style games and they're running a deal for all new players. A $30 coin package for just 10 bucks. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com and download the app today.

• 2:40:57Speaker 03

  Spin Quest is a free to play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:41:03Jack Murphy?

  This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, "Sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio." If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're

• 2:41:47Jack Murphy?

  going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

• 2:41:58Speaker 00

  Migraine makes me miss out on the moments that matter. So I asked my doctor about saying yep to vypey, eptinezumab, JJMR, and IV infusion given every three months that helps prevent migraine attacks in adults. Don't receive if allergic to vypey. Get help right away for allergic reactions like rash, swelling of face, lips, tongue, or throat, trouble breathing, hives, or facial redness. Tell your doctor if you have constipation that is severe or associated with severe or constant belly pain or swelling, vomiting, or bloating. If you have increased blood pressure, or color changes, pain, or numbness in fingers or toes. Common side effects are stuffy nose, scratchy throat, and allergic reactions. Tap the ad to see how many migraine-free days you might reclaim and see the full prescribing information at iepd.com.

• 2:42:42Speaker 02

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Cris mornings, pumpkin spice latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spin Quest. They have over a thousand different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players. A $30 coin package for just $10. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com, and download the app today.

• 2:43:07Speaker 03

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, "Sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio." If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing.

• 2:43:45Speaker 00

  Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

• 2:44:09Speaker 00

  Migraine makes me miss out on the moments that matter. So I asked my doctor about saying yep to vayepdi, eptinezumab, JJMR, an IV infusion given every three months that helps prevent migraine attacks in adults. Don't receive if allergic to vayepdi. Get help right away for allergic reactions like rash, swelling of face, lips, tongue, or throat, trouble breathing, hives, or facial redness. Tell your doctor if you have constipation that is severe or associated with severe or constipation. ...belly pain or swelling, vomiting or bloating. If you have increased blood pressure or color changes, pain or numbness in fingers or toes. Common side effects are stuffy nose, scratchy throat, and allergic reactions.

• 2:44:43Speaker 02

  Tap the ad to see how many migraine-free days you might reclaim and see the full prescribing information at fypd.com.

• 2:44:54Speaker 03

  Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on Spin Quest. And there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash prizes. That's at spinquest.com. S-P-I-N-Q-U-E-S-T.com. Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:45:23Jack Murphy?

  This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, "Sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio." If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at spreaker.com.

• 2:46:06Jack Murphy?

  Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

• 2:46:13Speaker 00

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 2:46:26Speaker 01

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 2:47:09Speaker 01

  This is an advertisement for Zolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 2:47:13Speaker 03

  You know what? It sucks to be bored. But when I get on my phone and play real casino games on spinquest.com, the time flies by. That two-hour wait at the DMV seems like 10 minutes. Play your favorite slots, live blackjack, live craps, with a live dealer. New players, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. Play spinquest.com and you'll never be bored again. Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Monday night brings one more big matchup to settle into. And when every play matters, the last thing you want to do is step away to figure out dinner. That's where DiGiorno comes in. Get a DiGiorno pizza ready before kickoff, then enjoy a restaurant-quality taste, fresh from your own oven,

• 2:47:57Speaker 03

  while you stay locked into every play. Stock up on DiGiorno over the weekend, so when Monday night rolls around, the only thing you sweat is the game. Shop now at the link in the episode description. It's not delivery, it's DiGiorno.