Ornithorhynchology (PLATYPUSES) with Tahneal Hawke

Duck bills. Beaver tails. Underground lairs. Eggs. Milk. Venom? A platypus has it all. Scholar, conservationist, and Ornithorhynchologist Dr. Tahneal Hawke is here to run through the baffling anatomy and answer all of our WHAT’S THE DEAL, WHAT EVEN *ARE* THEY questions, and chat about field work, evolution, how to spot a platypus, why you can’t have one in your bathtub, and myths about platypus espionage. Also, a platypus might be sexier than you.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alie Ward?

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• 0:44Alie Ward?

  So if you're ready for thicker, fuller hair, start your free online visit today at forhers.com/ologies for personalized care. So that's F-O-R-H-E-R-S.com/ologies. Individual results may vary. Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. Trips are full of unexpected discoveries. Maybe you see a sea slug, or you find out that your friend still sleeps with a stuffed animal. But when it comes to your vacation rental, there should not be any surprises. When you book a Verbo vacation rental, if what you expect isn't what you get, Verbo Care has you covered. If something's broken or just not right,

• 1:29Alie Ward?

  Verbo will work to make it right. Plus, you get 24/7 live human support with every booking. Grab your stuffy, we're going on vacay. So book today on the Verbo app. If you know, you're Verbo. Terms apply. See verbo.com/trust for details. Oh, hey, it's the coffee shop guy who is happy to heat up your muffin, Ally Ward. And though we can't all be in Australia right now, we are all here. Her platypuses. What is with this ology, you ask me, horrified by the amount of letters? Well, Ornithorhynchus in Greek, that word, that portmanteau of words, means bird-like. And the species we're going to be chatting about, Anadinos, means duck-like. So these critters' names literally translate to bird-like, duck-like. Although, there

• 2:14Alie Ward?

  was this outmoded species named Paradoxus, which just means unexpected. Platypus itself, that word, means big, flat feet. We're going to talk about those, too, as well as this other just constellation of confusions that is the platypus. But first, thank you so much to patrons of the show who make it happen by joining for as little as a dollar a month. Thank you to everyone checking out Smallologies, our shorter, kid-friendly episodes. You can subscribe to wherever you get podcasts. Those are linked in the show notes. Thanks to everyone finding each other in the wild in your Ologies merch from ologiesmerch.com. And thanks, as always, to people who review the show. I read them all. They help so much. To prove it, here's a wet one from Jordan D. Friend, who wrote that "Ologies is like

• 2:57Alie Ward?

  the best comfort food and a warm hug combined." Jordan D. Friend, I'm embracing some bread pudding in return. And on to this week's guests, who got their PhD in biological sciences with a focus on impacts of river regulation on platypus population dynamics, from Sydney's University of New South Wales, where they are now a joint senior research associate, as well as at Taronga Conservation Society. They have nearly a decade in monitoring wild platypus populations. They've worked with nearly 500 wild ones, publishing numerous papers on these animals, including "Field Anesthesia for Platypuses: A Proven Method in the Case for Non-Veterinarian Accreditation Pathways" in the journal Australian Memology.

• 3:40Alie Ward?

  They let me ask so many befuddled questions on mine and your behalf. So, say goodbye to small talk about the weather forever, because this single episode of Ologies will give you icebreakers for the rest of your life, as we touch on their fur, their face, their butts, their tails, their evolution, their conservation, how to spot a platypus. Why you shouldn't have one in your bathtub, fieldwork down under, platypuses and espionage, milk, eggs, hoaxes, and a lot of soft stunned gasps with biologist, conservationist, scholar, professor, and ornitho, rhinologist, Dr. Tenille Hawke.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  It's Tenille Hawke. I pronounce her she/her.

• 4:40Alie Ward?

  Okay, first things first, platypuses, platypai, what's the deal?

• 4:45Speaker 01

  So platypuses, technically platypodes, but that's not really widely used. The reason is because it's actually Greek origin. So if it was Latin origin, it would be platypai. But because it's Greek origin, we go, we generally go with platypuses.

• 5:01Alie Ward?

  Okay, that makes sense. And it solves the most burning question in a lot of people's minds.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  That is, I would say, my most asked question.

• 5:10Alie Ward?

  Okay, good. We got it right off the top. Well, it's been great talking to you and I hope you have a great rest of your day. And that's it. That's all I got. What about species? Are there a lot of them or just one?

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Just one species of platypus right across their range, which is like pretty unique. We're kind of looking into the genetics a bit and there's kind of a bit of a difference, you know, across east or west, but not enough to even be a subspecies. So just one species, yeah.

• 5:40Alie Ward?

  Are they slightly different sizes or something? Or do they just have different vibes?

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Bit of a different size. So platypuses in Australia, they extend from kind of up north in Cairns in Queensland, all the way down to Tasmania. So right along the east coast of Australia. So if you're up north, you'll find that the platypuses are much smaller. But when you come down to Tassie, they're starting to get pretty big. Like a male will be around three kilos. So there's quite a size difference.

• 6:07Alie Ward?

  Six and a half pounds. So a little more than a standard bag of flour or a two-liter bottle of soda I should not be drinking. And those babies? As tiny as half a kilo or a pound, but on average. If you had to compare them to a sized dog or a cat, like what kind of pet would they be?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess smaller than both, like your standard dog. Yeah, much smaller, like maybe a small kitten vibe, I guess. Yeah.

• 6:38Alie Ward?

  Really? They're that small?

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of people, when they see them, they're quite surprised by the size. They expect them to be kind of like, you know, like otter beaver size.

• 6:47Alie Ward?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  But definitely much smaller. Like I guess average would be around a kilo, a kilo and a half and about 50 centimeters. So yeah, they're much smaller than what people expect.

• 6:57Alie Ward?

  So about 20 inches long and weighing three and a half pounds? Or like the teacuppiest Yorkie that you can fathom? I never knew that. I thought they were beaver sized. Or like if you had a friend who has like a 20 pound cat and you go, whoa, that's a big one. I thought they'd be about that.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, much smaller, much smaller.

• 7:16Alie Ward?

  Holy smokes. Okay. And there's only one species, only Australia?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Only Australia. Yeah. So endemic to Australia, um, which, you know, makes them very unique in terms of their evolution.

• 7:27Alie Ward?

  Do many zoos even carry them, have any in stock?

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's a bit of a hot topic. Platypus, like they're pretty hard to keep in captivity. There are a few institutions. So, um, we have Taronga Zoo in Sydney and out at Dubbo here, um, that house platypus really successfully. And also Healdsville Sanctuary down in Victoria, who have like a long history of having platypus in captivity. And, you know, they're really kind of, they know how to house them well. They know what they need. And there's a few other institutions around Australia that do it really well. There is also over at San Diego Safari Park, they've got a pair of platypuses that came over from Sydney a few years ago, who are doing really well.

• 8:10Alie Ward?

  So let's hear it for ambassador animals and probably reluctant Australian expats, Eve and Birarung, whose name in Aboriginal means "a river of mists and shadows." And the two arrived in sunny San Diego in 2019. And the park keeps their night owl schedule by making sure their enclosure is dark during the day. And if you are looking for some breathless, tabloid gossip about their personal lives, scientist-ish, that Birra, for short, is more relaxed with his keepers, but more active. And he's a, quote, "sleep on top of the covers" guy, who's ready to go as soon as he sees his keepers at 6:00 a.m.

• 8:51Alie Ward?

  However, Eve, likes to sleep in, all cozy, is more talkative than Birra, greeting her keepers with, quote, "a hissy growl vocalization" when they check on her nest box. And if you were like, "get these cuties in my eyes," but you can't make the trip to Australia, or California, or you're scared of the United States, you can livestream San Diego Safari Park's platypus cam. And if you're like, "not to complain, but why doesn't my zoo have ambassador rescue platypuses to enrich my life?"

• 9:22Speaker 01

  So there are a few institutions, but the problem is they're really hard to breed in captivity. So, you know, they're only really coming into these zoos if they're coming in as, like, rehab animals, if they're coming in from the wild injured. So that's really the only way that we can kind of get those animals in captivity.

• 9:39Alie Ward?

  Are they bonded pairs? Like, when you say that they've sent a pair, are they like, "we've shipped them, we love them, they love each other, let's send them over?"

• 9:48Speaker 01

  No, so platypus are solitary. So, you know, they don't mate for life, they don't have bonded pairs. That's just kind of a pair of our own doing, I guess. Like, you know, they got along pretty well at the zoo. So, yeah, they went off to San Diego together.

• 10:02Alie Ward?

  It's like Married at First Sight.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 10:05Alie Ward?

  They're like, "you're just gonna see how it goes," you know? Where are they living? I picture them living in little creeks or ponds, but I don't know.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  So rivers and creeks is their primary habitat. It depends on the size. Like generally they cope well with most conditions. Their ideal foraging depths are about one to five meters. So that's kind of where they really like hanging out. But along the east coast, yeah, if you're lucky enough, you'll find them in most river systems as long as there hasn't been like any significant degradation. But yeah, they're pretty much just hanging out in all the rivers and streams along the eastern side of Australia.

• 10:46Alie Ward?

  You said five meters, so they can dive down to like fifteen feet. Are they holding their breath in their little bills?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're amazing divers. They'll be like on the surface, they'll dive down, they'll close their eyes and ears, hold their breath, kind of scoot along the bottom looking for water bugs. And they can hold their breath for between like generally around two minutes. If they're feeling threatened, they can hold it for much longer, like up to ten minutes if they really wanna relax and like lower their heart rate. But generally it's around the two to three minute mark that they'll be down and then they'll kind of pop up to the surface and eat any of the bugs that they've found.

• 11:21Alie Ward?

  So these sweet little weirdos, they're swimming around, they're clapping their little bills to eat up all kinds of aquatic bugs and worms and larvae and such underwater at night. How are they doing this? I can't find my lip balm in the darkness of my purse. How are they gobbling up so much in the dead of night with their eyes closed? This is, this is baffling and it's magic.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  So yeah, essentially they're not relying on their eyes or their ears when they're underwater. So their bill is incredibly sensitive. It's got electroreceptors and mechanoreceptors, which essentially means like once they dive under the water, they're detecting all those electrical signals that any little water bugs, any freshwater shrimp or worms are giving off. And that's kind of guiding them to their position in the river, like down in the, all the mud. And so, yeah, they're able to just dive down, detect those signals, find their prey, and then they'll come back up to the surface where they'll eat their prey.

• 12:23Alie Ward?

  What, is that like a, is there metal in there? Beak bill?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  No, no. Yeah, super sensitive. They're called electro and mechanoreceptors. They've got about 50,000 of them in the bill. So it's highly sensitive to just any movement or electrical impulses that are happening in the waterway.

• 12:41Alie Ward?

  Okay, so 50,000 tiny electric receptors. This is news to me, but it's not news to ornithoracologists. So a 1987 paper in the journal Nature titled Electro Receptors in the Platypus reads that it's been known since the 1800s that the bill of the platypus contains densely packed arrays of specialized receptor organs, mechanoreceptive, that can detect movements of water currents and tension and pressure. But the electroreceptive has been more surprising historically. And it says that behavioral observations showed that a platypus could detect weak electrical dipoles. And it was suggested that the animal was able to locate moving prey

• 13:23Alie Ward?

  by the electrical activity associated with the prey's muscle contractions. The bill, it's not a beak, it's a bill then, right?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 13:31Alie Ward?

  Or is it a beak? Is a bill a type of beak? Clearly, I don't know jack shit about this because all I know is that they're weird. They're like a Mr. Potato Head of different parts. This is why we love them. But yeah, is it a bill? Is it a beak?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  So a lot of people are also shocked when they see a platypus because they like, it's called a duckbill platypus. So people have this perception that the bill is going to be similar to what we would expect from a duck's beak. So quite hard. The bill is actually very soft on a platypus. It's almost like malleable, like you can bend it. It's very rubbery. And that's just because it's like, it's so sensitive. It contains all these, you know, electro and mechanoreceptors. Yeah, so very different to the beak of a duck, which a lot of people are surprised about.

• 14:18Alie Ward?

  Do they got teeth in there? Are they mishmashing around the bugs? How do they chew?

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no teeth. They are born with like some vestigial teeth, which kind of helps them crack out of their egg.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  I'm outie.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  But then as an adult, they don't have any teeth. They have what we call keratinized grinding pads. So inside the mouth, it's like these two kind of horny grooves that run kind of laterally. So when they come to the surface, they're kind of using their bill. They're kind of moving the top side to side and really grinding up all those little bugs into sort of a paste, really.

• 14:54Alie Ward?

  Oh.

• 14:56Alie Ward?

  Well, speaking of horny groups, they lay eggs.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  They do.

• 15:00Alie Ward?

  Do they got jennies on the inside or the outside? How would they make it more of themselves?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're a monotreme, um, so yeah, they lay eggs. Um, they have a cloaca, so both male and females have the cloaca, similar to what we see in a chicken, which essentially means like all their reproduction and all their feces and all their urine and everything happens in a single hole. For the males, they have like the penis, the testes are inside, in like internal. When mating happens, he'll kind of flop out his penis and yeah, into the cloaca of the female, um, and they will engage in mating, yeah.

• 15:39Alie Ward?

  Did I hear wrong that it might be barbed?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  It is.

• 15:43Alie Ward?

  Well, okay, is it, how many forks are, is like, is it the, is it like the scepter of Neptune? What's happening?

• 15:50Speaker 01

  It is quite confronting, I'll be honest. It's like very alien-esque is how I would describe it. So it comes out, it has like two heads. And then at the end of each head, there is like several large spikes. But then the whole penis itself is also covered in smaller spikes. So yeah, not my idea of a good time. I'll put it like that.

• 16:14Alie Ward?

  No, and they're not like couche ball squishy spikes, are they? Are they like fingernail hard?

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, like they're not huge spikes, but they're definitely hard. Like I wouldn't want to touch it with my fingers. So I can't imagine it's too pleasant.

• 16:32Alie Ward?

  How are there any platypuses on the planet?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, good question.

• 16:40Alie Ward?

  I mean, and is there, is that evolutionary purpose? I know we can only probably speculate, but is that to clean out like sperm of competitors or is it just because they were made of leftover parts?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't really know, to be honest. It might be, um, like something to do with just how they, they're mating in the water. So perhaps it's like a mechanism to make sure that they stay interlocked. When they're mating, there's like a whole heap of circling maneuvers that are kind of happening, often called like a love donut leading up to the breeding.

• 17:12Alie Ward?

  Okay, so to test the quality of a mate, a female platypus will wrestle and chase around and kind of feel out the vibe before doing any baby making. And part of this little sexual dance involves this trance-like yin yang circle with their bodies, where they clasp each other's floppy tails with their rubbery bills, and then they just merry-go-round in the water like that. So yeah, platypus is kind of 69.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  But then when they're breeding, the male will be on top. But yeah, I'm like, we're not really sure about the mechanisms of, you know, why they have these barbs. But we do also see them in echidnas, which is their closest living species. And echidnas are on land, so I'm not sure of the evolutionary reasons why they've retained those spurs.

• 17:58Alie Ward?

  So they have an egg that's fertilized through an arduous process that you probably could litigate if you were on land. Then, does it pass through the oviduct and then the cloaca like a bird? And then do they have like a clutch of them? Or is it like one and done for the season?

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Once the female is pregnant, it's quite a quick process to egg laying. So the male and the female will mate, usually within a week after that. The female, no, she's pregnant. She's gonna start collecting nesting material. So they are a mammal, but they do construct a nest, as you would expect. A bird does, obviously because they're laying those eggs. So she's gonna start collecting this nesting material. She's gonna build a breeding burrow in the riverbank. And then she's gonna start hauling all this nesting material deep into her burrow. She's gonna construct a little nest. And then, yeah, within, you know, about 10 days, she's gonna lay her eggs. And then they're gonna hatch pretty quickly after that.

• 18:56Alie Ward?

  Wait, how fast? A week and a half?

• 18:59Speaker 01

  About 10 days, they're gonna hatch.

• 19:01Alie Ward?

  No, that's so fast.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Yes, super quick. But when the eggs hatch, they come out very small. So if like anyone's familiar with marsupials, like kangaroos, they have like a tiny baby, like jelly bean size. So they're very primitive when they're born.

• 19:16Alie Ward?

  But no pouch?

• 19:17Speaker 01

  No pouch, no.

• 19:19Alie Ward?

  So these things, again, the size of a teacup yorkie with a little bouncy flappy bill. They got a barbed dong and baby's eggs. Mechanics are iconic. Lifestyle, no idea here. Do they normally sleep in a burrow? Like, let's say that they're, um... Dilfs, dual, or what is it? Dual income, no kids, dinks. Let's say they're dinks. Dual income, no kids. They're child free. Would they sleep in a burrow anyway? Or would they just be like, I don't have kids, so I'm going to sleep in this patch of wet grass?

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Most platypuses, I'd say 99% are going to sleep in a burrow every day. Obviously, they need to breathe air. So it's quite difficult for them to, you know, sleep in the river. So they'll construct what we call a resting burrow. And that's, you know, it's in the bank. It's maybe a couple of meters deep. But that's kind of where they're just hanging out during the day. So that's different to the breeding burrow. The breeding burrow is normally more complex. It's normally deeper. It might have like a series of chambers. And yeah, it'll just be a bit more complex than those day to day burrows that they use.

• 20:25Alie Ward?

  When they're in their burrows, though, for the most part, they're living solo?

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:30Alie Ward?

  Like when they're in their just sleeping burrows, they're just like living alone?

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this is kind of what we've always thought was the case. Like I said earlier, they're like a solitary animal. We are seeing some evidence, just in a few of our recent studies, that in certain populations where the density is quite high, that we've noticed a number of females are kind of sleeping in these big condos of, you know, females getting together in one certain area. So whether that's like something to do with how many platypus there are, or maybe at this location, that's just like the prime real estate and they're all trying to cram in there together, we don't know.

• 21:07Alie Ward?

  They've gentrified the particular riverbank. So sometimes, yes, there are big slumber parties with a bunch of moms and babies, just like little sweet furry stinky aliens underground. Do you have to get down there with fiber optic cameras? Are you checking it out? Are you doing like a Zillow home tour with a camera?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so in the wild, it's super hard to do that. Once a platypus goes into the burrow, it could be sort of anywhere in the earth mound on the river bank. So we have had a few instances where we've put like a radio tracker on the platypus.

• 21:46Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  And then when it goes into the burrow, you can kind of use this antenna to kind of pinpoint where the animal is in the bank. And we have worked with a few documentary crews that managed to like carefully very hand drill like um down through the soil. When, once the female was, you know, out foraging in the river, um we, we knew we weren't gonna disturb her. Hand drill down into that chamber. And yeah, put a small flexible camera in and then kind of seal up the entrance. And we were able to get some really unique footage of those kind of puggles growing up in their burrow for a few weeks, which was really exciting.

• 22:24Alie Ward?

  Puggles?

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Puggles, yes.

• 22:27Alie Ward?

  They're called puggles?

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Well, I guess up for debate.

• 22:31Alie Ward?

  I mean, yeah, I vote yeah.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's my philosophy. Generally, now it's kind of more accepted as puggles. But there's no real evidence of where that came from. And I know some of the like old school researchers might prefer to use just juvenile platypus. But you know, I think puggle kind of, it gets the audience excited anyway.

• 22:53Alie Ward?

  Like a tiny gummy bear puggle, do they have little bills too?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're born, like I said, they're primitive, but they're very much, they look like a platypus. They're just tiny and pink and very underdeveloped. Yeah, very strange looking in initially.

• 23:09Alie Ward?

  Also, I saw a video, while they're building a burrow and they're making a nest in there, females will grab bunches of vegetation with their weird little tails and then they'll drag them into the hole, into the lair. Like if you were to try to drag a bushel of cornstalks through your front door, but the long way, it's so ambitious. How are they digging these underground catacombs? Don't they have like a webby foot?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the front foot of the platypus, it's super specialized. So it is webbed. It's very well adapted to swimming in the rivers, because that's kind of primarily what they're doing. But it also has, they also have like nails on them as well. So they can actually kind of fold back the webbing. And then they can use their nails to dig these really like intricate burrows. So yeah, there's a lot going on there.

• 24:04Alie Ward?

  Oh my god, it's like a pocket knife. They're just like, whoosh. That's amazing. I mean, are they nocturnal? Cause I've seen photos of researchers out and it looks like it's nighttime and people are wearing headlamps. And are you just sneaking up on them while they're sleeping or are they nocturnal?

• 24:20Speaker 01

  So primarily, they are nocturnal. For us to study them, like it's all happening during the night. It depends on what season it is. So over the winter months and kind of leading into spring in Australia is their breeding season. So they might start coming out a bit more during the day over those months. The males are trying to find females, they're trying to establish territory. So you might get a bit more daytime activity, but certainly predominantly at night. And all our research is definitely kind of focused over those evening hours.

• 24:53Alie Ward?

  Okay, so you're working nocturnally. What is the life of a platypus expert like? Do you brew coffee at like five P M. and you're like, get your hip waiters on and you're like, let's get to work, people?

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's pretty much it. Um, I will say I've only started drinking coffee in the last few years. And I'm not sure how I used to do this job without it, to be honest. But yeah, like a typical day, you know, we're heading out sort of in the afternoon. We're looking for sites, you know, we've, we've got a few considerations when it comes to net setting, like the depth of the river. Um, which nets we can use, you know, if we can get access, how fast the river's flowing. And then, yeah, we spend a couple of hours kind of putting the nets up. We're hanging out, we're waiting, we're hoping for platypuses. Pretty much, and it depends, you know, on the project, but normally until the morning.

• 25:40Alie Ward?

  Wow.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  And then we go again, over and over.

• 25:44Alie Ward?

  And do you know, is there like when you're fishing and there's like a bobbin? Like, how do you know if you've got one that's like, ah, shit, I'm in the net?

• 25:52Speaker 03

  You got me, you got me.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it depends. So we have two types of nets. One is called an unweighted gill net and it has like a series of floating boys on top. And so when a platypus is foraging in the water, it'll hit that net. It'll immediately surface for air and it'll be splashing on the surface. So normally what will happen is we'll hear the splashes. But we're also kind of patrolling that net with a spotlight every couple of minutes just because we don't want to miss any action that's happening. We don't want to stress that animal out.

• 26:25Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  And so we'll jump in the boat and we'll go and collect it from the net and put it in a pillowcase.

• 26:30Alie Ward?

  Oh.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. The other type of net that we have is called a fike net. That's where we're putting our waders on, you know, we're going into the river. We're setting these nets. They're very different. So the platypus is kind of funneled into a series of chambers. So it can be resting in the water, it can be resting out of the water. And so those ones we're checking, you know, every couple of hours throughout the night to make sure that, you know, the platypus aren't in there for too long.

• 26:55Alie Ward?

  So yes, two types of nets and the second one, a fike net, is used in shallow waters. It's kind of like a halfway submerged hallway with these different chambers, like walking through airlocks on Star Trek. And then if you get one, then do they get kind of like a volume situation? And then you're weighing them and checking, you know, taking a DNA sample and all of that?

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:21Alie Ward?

  What happens when you fish them out? Do they get a treat?

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wish, I wish I could give them a treat. Um, so like I said, once we catch, they go straight into a pillowcase. And then for us, it's really kind of, we're trying to reduce the stress to this animal. Like, you know, these are wild animals. We don't want to cause unnecessary stress to them. So once they're in the pillowcase, if it's cold, we'll put a little towel around them. We'll put them in the car. So often we have like a car full of platypus situations.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  But they're really like, they're quite comfortable there. I think maybe it like resembles their borough a bit, you know, it's dark, it's quiet, they feel secure. So normally they're just gonna be resting in a pillowcase, no problem. Our protocols, again, this is different to some other research groups, but we actually do like an infield anesthesia for platypus.

• 28:07Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  So while they're still in their pillowcase, they'll go into an induction chamber. We use like an isofluorine gas, which if you you take your dog or your cat to a vet, that's kind of the standard protocol, the standard gas that they'll be using. And essentially the platypus, within a few minutes, it's it's just breathing in this gas, it'll go to sleep. And then that allows us to then have a really close look and take those samples for, you know, health and genetics and measurements and and anything that we wanna look at.

• 28:36Alie Ward?

  Do you guys fight over whose car the platypus is going, or are you like, do they smell, like, what do they smell like?

• 28:42Speaker 01

  They smell bad.

• 28:44Alie Ward?

  Okay, okay.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  They smell bad. Like, the the platypus themselves are fine buds often, you know, they're pooing in these bags and they're being held for a while. And their feces is like some of the worst stuff I've ever smelled, so.

• 28:57Alie Ward?

  Really?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Generally, if someone else wants them in the car, I'm like, yeah, you can take them, put them in yours, and they can do it, the consequences on the drive home.

• 29:04Alie Ward?

  Oh, it's because it's poop from a cloaca, but it's also made of insect paste, right?

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, the sifting through all the mud on the bottom of the river, you know, they're probably, yeah, it's not a pleasant experience. And it always like, it gets on you and it's one of those smells that you know, you can't really wash out too easily. So I'm like smelling a platypus every time I'm in the field.

• 29:27Alie Ward?

  We wanted you to have as rich an experience as possible, and I looked more into the information on this smell. One conservation site reported that fresh platypus poo looks like black mousse or soft serve ice cream, but is tacky like hot tar. It also smells a lot, it added. Some other adjectives that I found for you to savor: strong, unctuous, musky, pungent, and bad. Well, are there a lot of you on these night expeditions, or is it like a X-Files, Mulder and Scully pair up? Or is it like there's fifty people because everyone's like, this is the dopest job in wildlife conservation?

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is kind of a balancing act that we play. When we first started, it was kind of. Us and a few volunteers, like very low key. And I guess now that it started to build traction in the media, people are getting excited about this research. We get a bit bombarded sometimes with requests for people to join, you know, people wanna see a platypus, which is fantastic, but also we wanna kind of maintain numbers to a level that, you know, we're not gonna place any extra stress on these animals. Cause you can imagine, you know, if you're a platypus, it's already a stressful situation, um, going through being trapped, being prodded and then being put back in the water. So I guess the smaller the numbers, the better, just in terms of noise and light and, you know, anything that might impact the animals.

• 30:55Alie Ward?

  You don't wanna put them on like a red carpet situation where they're like, over here, over here. Can I get a, you know, everyone's gramming them. Well, if you're out there all night, you're drinking coffee, it's a long night. Who, where are you peeing? Where are people, like, what's that like?

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, in the bush. I'm an expert now. Yeah, yeah, no stress mind anymore. Like, that's all part of it for me. But I, I feel like, you know, when people, volunteers come out, they're always a bit like, oh, like, where's the bathrooms, you know? So I'm very, when I, when I'm putting out these calls for people to join, I'm very explicit now about like, we're out in, we're out in the woods, like, you know, there's no comforts here.

• 31:38Alie Ward?

  You wanna be comfortable with discomfort a little bit.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Yep.

• 31:42Alie Ward?

  Did you grow up camping a lot? Like, is this something that you didn't even have to worry about? Or were you like, okay, there's a big learning curve in terms of outdoorsiness?

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Big learning curve.

• 31:53Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  I, yeah, like when I was younger, I loved animals and I loved the outdoors. But like as a family, yeah, we weren't that outdoorsy family, you know? We went camping maybe a handful of times. And so when I, like I started my PhD research, it was very much like. In the deep end, you know, camping, boats, water, waders, making a fire, driving a four wheel drive, like, all that stuff was very foreign to me in the beginning. So the learning curve was, I would say, very steep, but yeah, I really found my feet with it, I think. And, you know, I like, I love it now. I love being outdoors, being in nature. So it's worked out pretty good, I'd say.

• 32:31Alie Ward?

  Do you ever take friends, like, close friends or family out, out with you?

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I try to. Like, when I first started this research, it was very much, oh, look at, like, cute animals. I love this. I still feel that way about platypus, but I think some of the special parts now is actually getting to share that experience and share this, like, incredible animal with other people. So, yeah, really, any opportunity I get to take friends, family, anyone out in the field, you know, it's like a real privilege to be able to share that experience.

• 33:00Alie Ward?

  When you started with platypuses, were you on a completely different wildlife track? And then someone's like, hey, I need another researcher for this? Or were you sending emails to platypus experts, being like, put me in, put me in, put me in?

• 33:13Speaker 01

  No, I wasn't. I, I was looking for like, an honors master's project when I was still an undergrad. And one of the professors kind of said that they had this platypus project coming up. And so I went and saw him and he said, oh, like, it's too soon. It's still a few years off, like, nothing's kind of in motion yet. And so I kind of laid that dream to rest. And then a few years later, I saw an advertisement for a PhD position, at which stage I had, like, no interest in going back to university to study. So I kind of, again, I dismissed it. But then there was, yeah, it was nagging me in the background, I guess. So I thought, I'll just apply and see what happens. And then I got it. Been platypusing ever since.

• 33:53Alie Ward?

  Oh, what a job. Do you get to touch them with your own hands? Do they have soft fur? Do they have soft bellies?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:02Alie Ward?

  They do.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Yes. So, yeah, while they're, like, anethetized, you know, you, you get, like, a really up-close look. They're so soft, especially their bellies, like, oh, yeah, really soft. And I guess so platypuses, they were actually extensively hunted in the early nineteen hundreds. And that was because their fur is so soft, like, and it's waterproof. So they would make coats, they would make rugs, like, hats, all this stuff out of platypus. And, you know, when you're touching them, you realize, you know, yeah, why, like, very soft, very soft.

• 34:33Alie Ward?

  So if you listen to our Lutronology episode in which we talk smack on otters, you will know that the density of their fur is what keeps air trapped close to the skin and maintains their body temperature, even when they're clocking long hours in the sea. Same thing for platypus. So their fur is nearly as dense as otters. It's soft. Apparently, it's almost velvety when it's dry. And their feet, whoa, their feet are webbed ones with these long claws. The best analog visually I can think of is like a leather flamenco skirt with knives along the hem. And even the tail, it's not like a beaver tail. It's not leathery. I looked at a picture and I was like, wait, they got, they got a big hairy butt over here too?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  The tail is actually, yeah, different to the hair on the body. The underside is like hairless, but then the top side is kind of bristly. I can always describe it to people as like, I don't know, in America, like those kind of shitty brown doormats that everyone has on their front porch. You know, that's a little bit dated, needs replacing. That's kind of what I always think of when I touch their tail, like super bristly and hard compared to the rest of their software.

• 35:46Alie Ward?

  Oh, my gosh. Okay. So many questions. Can I ask you listener questions?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Yep.

• 35:52Alie Ward?

  Oh, my gosh, we have so many. Let's get to the milk of the things and we will lap up those answers in a moment. But first, let's take a quick break and donate to a cause of the ologist's choosing. And this week, Dr. Hock directed it towards the Platypus Conservation Initiative, which works to reestablish these amazing and irreplaceable animals in the wild, reducing their risk of extinction before it's too late. And a donation to them helps reintroduce more platypuses along Australia's east coast. It supports vital research and outreach programs. Again, that is the Platypus Conservation Initiative, and we will link them in the show notes. So thank you to sponsors of the show who make that possible. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. If you haven't heard me gushing about Squarespace for years, it's an all-in-one website platform.

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• 37:18Alie Ward?

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• 39:31Alie Ward?

  OK, let's get into your questions, which you submitted via patreon.com/ologies. You too can join for $1 a month, or you can pop up to an upper tier if you would like to leave an audio question, such as this one.

• 39:43Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Rony. I'm from LA. I heard in a previous episode, I think it was Mamology, about how the platypus mammary glands work. And I think, I guess my question for that is,

• 39:55Speaker 07

  why? Yeah, my question is, what the fuck is up with that?

• 40:01Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 40:02Alie Ward?

  So mammary glands.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Hmm, OK.

• 40:05Alie Ward?

  What?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're different to mammals in the fact that platypuses don't have any nipples. But they still produce milk for their young. So what's kind of happening is when the female is in that burrow with her young, she's kind of laying on her side and she's just excreting milk through her skin, essentially. And then the baby platypuses are kind of there just lapping it up from the stomach.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Very weird system going on there.

• 40:37Alie Ward?

  I mean, and so many people ask this, but in so many different ways. But let's just talk about the evolution. Katie King, The Cole, ZYZ, Roslyn Hasme, Erin Johnson, Aurora Cullen, Isoparty, Storm, Matt Thompson, Azzy, Herminologist, Jennifer Grogan. I mean... So many, I'm gonna have to list them all on the side, or maybe not. I mean, another like fifteen people. Wanna know, in Ben Beirac Fure's words, "Why do they seem to have so many unique features? What happened to all their evolutionary cousins?" I mean, I know that you must be so sick of people just stuttering why at you. But honestly, like, they're so weird.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like, so they're monotremes. So essentially, that means a group of mammals whose ancestors have kind of retained these traits, like egg laying, which is a feature lost by what we see in marsupial and placental animals. So it's like an ancient characteristic that's shared with birds and reptiles. It's evolved before the development of live birth. So that kind of explains what some people see as primitive egg-laying traits. I tend to refer to it more as not primitive, but it's a survivor of an ancient lineage that's evolved separately from other mammals.

• 41:55Alie Ward?

  So that egg-laying is kind of a bit of a throwback. It's like using a flip phone or a digicam when you go out. It's like vintage tech, an oldie but a goodie.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  So, you know, it has all these weird features, the spurs, the eggs. And then a lot of the others are kind of adapted to its environment. Like, we see, you know, the webbing that we were talking about, the nails that they use to dig and walk on land. And then this bill is obviously highly adapted to the waterways and the food that it's eating. So it has a real mix of morphological and evolutionary traits that, you know, come together and make this super unique animal.

• 42:33Alie Ward?

  I understand that when someone in Europe was shipped a specimen, they thought it was a hoax, but they were looking to see if it was stitched together from a lot of different animals. How long has the colonizing world outside of Australia known of these beautiful creatures?

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, yeah, the first one that ever went back to Europe, they were like, this can't be real. This is a duck and a beaver stitched together. So they had it under a microscope. They were looking for the stitching, you know, where the bill attached. Yeah, it's not been long. People still don't really believe that this animal exists, I think. Like, sometimes when I put stuff on social media and, you know, it goes viral internationally, it's like people from other parts of the world are still like, wait, these things are real? Like, this- This animal actually exists. So yeah, I think maybe still a lot of people around the world don't actually know about platypus, to be honest.

• 43:26Alie Ward?

  I mean, I think that they're possibly the most fascinating animal on the planet. They are a hodgepodge of so many different things and they're so rare. And now I know that they're like kitten sized. I'm in love. Do you know of any Aboriginal or indigenous sort of like traditions or myths about it? Doug Foster, Erin Farley, Char Harrison and AJ wanted to know, in Char's words, what importance do they hold in like indigenous Australian culture?

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the platypus is considered a totem animal for some indigenous Aboriginal cultures here in Australia. So, you know, it holds deep cultural significance to those groups and it does feature in some creation stories and the spiritual traditions associated with the animal. There's some evidence in certain areas that perhaps platypus were eaten by indigenous people, but then for other areas, you know, it was considered too sacred to be hunted or eaten. So yeah, it definitely depends on where in Australia. Obviously, the platypus is specific to the east coast, so definitely has stronger ties to certain indigenous peoples throughout that area.

• 44:32Alie Ward?

  Mm hmm. Well, you mentioned eating too. A few people wanted to know if anyone eats their eggs or tries their milk and what it might taste like. Do you have any, any data?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  My answer is going to be no.

• 44:45Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Um, so, you know, platypus, like to see a platypus even in the wild is rare. To come across their eggs inside the burrow, it's exceptionally rare. Like you, I'd say it would almost never happen. And if it did, the eggs are tiny. Like, so I was talking about, you know, the size of the platypus when it's first born, but the eggs are very small, like, you know, nothing like a chicken egg. We're talking more like an oversized spider egg almost.

• 45:11Alie Ward?

  Wow. Like a breath mint kind of? Like if you were going to have a Mentos?

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 45:17Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  So like Mentos size but round. So, you know, you wouldn't get much nutritional value out of a platypus egg, I don't think. And yeah, in terms of the milk, yeah, you'd have to find, I guess, a lactating platypus and then be willing to suck all the milk straight from its stomach. So, you know, if you're lucky enough to do that, go for it.

• 45:37Alie Ward?

  I'm sure there's one person out there who, in history, who has. Hey, don't worry, y'all. I found an account from the 1832 paper titled, "On the Mammary Glands of the Ornithorhinches Paradoxus", in which this anatomist, Sir Richard Owen, recounts very hands-on research, writing, "On compressing the glands in a specimen, they're escaped from these orifices minute drops of a yellowish oil, which afforded neither the perceptible taste nor smell, except such that was derived from the preserving liquor." I mean, he says he did this, but if you were to bop over to the Sir Owen Wikipedia, you would see that in addition to being a knight, he was also a bitch,

• 46:20Alie Ward?

  as there was a whole heading titled, "Conflicts with His Peers", which starts off, "Owen has been described by some as a malicious, dishonest, and hateful individual, and a social experimenter with a penchant for sadism, addicted to controversy, and driven by arrogance and jealousy." So maybe if you squeeze a dead platypus milk gland, it will just taste like ethanol, or maybe he lied for clout. Based on how they smell and what they eat and where they swim, I can't imagine it wouldn't taste a little, maybe, earthy.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  No, I would be steering clear of that personally.

• 46:57Alie Ward?

  Well, who does eat them? Olivier Calas, Christine Wenzel, and Benevolentish, as well as AJ, wanted to know, like AJ asked, "What predators do they deal with in the wild? Who's out there eating them?"

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I guess in Australia, we have a big problem with, like, introduced species. So red foxes, feral cats, that's probably the biggest issues for platypus. But when you think about the platypus, like, you know, they're living in rivers. So you might think, oh, they're pretty much safe, like, what's gonna get them? The issue that we have with those feral species is... When conditions start to dry out, so rivers are drying up, the platypuses, they might start moving over land more to try and find better habitat, more water. And that's when we see they're super vulnerable to those introduced predators. There is also some evidence, so we have in Australia, muri cod, which is a native fish. They grow to be over a hundred kilograms.

• 47:53Alie Ward?

  Wow.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  There's some anecdotal evidence that maybe in areas where they overlap, some juveniles might get taken by these big fish. And then also birds of prey might also be an issue, but the evidence for that stuff is pretty limited at this stage.

• 48:08Alie Ward?

  How big are the gummy bears when they are flip flopping out of their burrow? Like, are they like a tiny candy bar? Like, what, how big?

• 48:18Speaker 01

  No, so they actually, they will stay in the burrow for about three months. And so when they emerge, they're seventy to eighty percent of the full adult size. So they're coming out of the burrow like ready to go. And often mom is sort of kicking them out too. She's like, you've overstayed. Kicking them out the door and even like even backsealing it so they can't get back in. It's very much like, you're ten eighteen, I'm changing the locks.

• 48:42Alie Ward?

  Wow, mom, mom's over it. She's my bitch, but who blames her?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's done her job.

• 48:51Alie Ward?

  Well, okay, a bunch of people from Patreon asked this question, a bunch of listeners did, and I did not even know. Like, I had no idea. Linus Rain, Tina Benevolentish, Addie Capello, Obalat, Angela Schnepp, asked, why do they have venom? What is after these weird, fascinating creatures? And then they asked, if friend shaped, why dangerous?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  I will say, I do get that comment on social media a lot, which I love.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  But yeah, the venom, so male platypuses, they have this venomous spur on both their hind. Well, it's on their ankles essentially, and it has a venom that is said to be the most excruciating pain known to man.

• 49:33Alie Ward?

  No.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, like there was a record of someone, I think it was the Korean War or Vietnam War, and he had like full body shrapnel wounds. And later in life, he actually got spurred by a platypus. And he said that the spurring from the platypus was worse than any war injury he sustained. So, yeah, like there's no antivenom, morphine won't help, like you're gonna pass out from the pain. And then you could be in pain for months, like, and some people report even years of this ongoing pain. So the venom is like really serious. Why they have it is it's really, we think a male male combat thing. So the venom is like, it doesn't impact platypuses as much as it

• 50:16Speaker 01

  impacts humans, or you know, that would probably be detrimental to their longevity. But we see the, during the breeding season, the venom production really spikes for males.

• 50:27Alie Ward?

  Hmm.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  And you see them like, you know, they're aggressive. You see them fighting in the water. You know, they've got scars on their tails from when they're kind of engaging in this combat.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  When it comes to combat, the males are well equipped for a knife fight.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  And that's because they're, you know, they're fighting for resources, they're fighting for females, they're fighting for habitat. And the reason why we think that this is to do with breeding and not like an anti predator offence is because we don't see these spurs in the females. So.

• 50:55Alie Ward?

  Hmm.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Females are born with a vestigial spur which is lost.

• 50:59Alie Ward?

  Just to recap again, where we're at anatomically. Rubbery bill, tiny as a kitten, smell terrible, bristly tail, electric face, armpit nipples, venomous, needle sharp, ankle stingers, and females have spur nubbins that do nothing, maybe just for style. It's so interesting that human males have nipples. Uh, female platypuses have no nipples, but they do have vestigial spikes. It's all topsy turvy.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 51:33Alie Ward?

  Who needs what and who's using it? But Andy Pepper wanted to know, how serious is the venom? I I'm guessing that you have not been invenimated because you would probably have told me.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Yes. Um, so yeah, when we're in the field, we're steering clear of that. Like I said, you know, uh, it can be months of pain. It can cause muscle atrophy. Normally it's people like get spurred in the wrist or the hand, but your ability to use your hand could be. Really compromised. So yeah, when we're in the field, you know, we're super careful with how we handle the animals. We're assuming that any platypus we catch is a male until we prove a hundred percent that it isn't. But irrespective, when we're handling them, we're holding them by the tail with our hand kind of on like the backside. So you know, it's out of reach of the spur and it's like really the only safe way to handle them and make sure that you don't come into contact with those spurs.

• 52:28Alie Ward?

  Do you know anyone, any other colleagues who have accidentally been poked?

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Not my direct colleagues, but I know some people um that work at Taronga Zoo in Sydney. I've heard their stories of being spurred. One lady was spurred there. I think she said it was more painful than delivering her twins. And there's, there are records of people, you know, who, the, the issue that the public has is they'll see normally it's an injured platypus that's on land and they'll kind of go up and they'll try to help the animal without realizing about these spurs. Cause you know, a lot of people don't know about platypus, let alone about their venom. So they're trying to help the animal and they, they get stung and they, they soon realize the pain associated with it.

• 53:13Alie Ward?

  And if you wanted to see one that wasn't injured and maybe even more defensive, but if someone wanted to see one in the wild, like that's their dream. Like that's their bucket list, the only thing on their bucket list. So that was Kim C as well as Lisa Gorman, Sarah Bone, Bush Witch and Mallory Avery. Although patron Erin Gunderson wrote that, why is it that as an albeit determined and well-informed tourist, I was able to see three in the wild in a week from a road or tram? And I only met one non-biologist Aussie that had ever seen a wild one. What's the best way to spot them from a safe distance? Is it possible to just go sit by a riverbank all night?

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Like, you know, it takes, I would say patience is the number one thing to have. You can see them like really any rivers and streams throughout the east coast if you're lucky enough. So dawn and dusk is the best time to see them. And you really want to be sitting at areas, you know, where there's a nice, slow-moving, like a pool in a river. Not those kind of fast-moving rapids. You really want those calm areas just because it makes it easier for you to sight them. But then within, you know, within their distribution, there are some hotspots. So like if you're hell bent on seeing a platypus, I would recommend going to Tasmania.

• 54:33Alie Ward?

  Hmm.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  The river systems are slightly smaller throughout a lot of their range there. The population size appears to be really good there. So a lot of people have success um with sightings in Tasmania.

• 54:45Alie Ward?

  Oh, okay. Good to know. We do have an episode with about Tasmanian devils and so.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, cool.

• 54:51Alie Ward?

  Tick two boxes off.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:53Alie Ward?

  Um, I've never been to Australia or New Zealand. I want to go so bad. There's so many critters to see. Emily Sanders wants to know, um, they're from Olympia, Washington, and they were wondering.

• 55:04Speaker 08

  How we feel about the platypus representation in Perry the platypus's character? More specifically, are they very social? Are they enigmatic? Do people have a hard time finding platypuses? Yeah. What are their personalities like? That's my question.

• 55:21Alie Ward?

  Um, are you aware of this?

• 55:23Speaker 01

  I am, I am.

• 55:24Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  I've only really been made aware of it, though, again, through social media. So a lot of like the content we post, again, if it goes viral, I get all these people commenting like, this isn't Perry, like, where's his fedora? Why is he not green? Like, what's he doing? Secret agent kind of stuff.

• 55:41Alie Ward?

  So Perry the platypus is a character on the animated show Phineas and Ferb and is assumed to be a very simple minded family pet. But Perry leads this double identity of espionage. Considering how odd and rare and not domesticatable they are, the secret life does kind of track for them. But I guess the storyboard artists weren't inspired by riverbank mud brown. So they took some liberties.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  So yeah, I'm very much aware of Perry now. Um, even like the university that I work for, some of their social media content, you know, they've kind of been capitalizing on that and, you know, adding a little fedora and adding the background music to try and get people excited. But yeah, people are, I think they have this perception, some people that, you know, that's what a platypus is, like this teal, secret agent, hat wearing weird thing. But you know, it's highly anatomically incorrect, really.

• 56:47Alie Ward?

  Sure. Perry is Aquamarine and walks on hind legs, but still a tiny hat would be like the most normal thing about a platypus. But what kind of charisma do they have? AJ and Ally Holcomb needed to know. They're not very social, from what I understand, from what you've told me, but are they enigmatic? Like, do they have different personalities? Like, are some feistier and some just like, it's fine, like, give me the gas and take my blood?

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, they definitely have personalities, like, and that's evident even if you're, like, if you're not researching platypus and if you're just trying to spot a platypus in the wild, like, you can already tell that they have these real different personalities. Like, um, some are quite inquisitive. If you're sitting on the bank of a river, they'll notice you there and they might, like, be interested, they might kind of pop up and down, they might be quite playful. Whereas others, you know, they have those more shy tendencies, so they might notice you and they might dive and they might immediately swim away, like, they want nothing to do with you. So there's definitely a difference. And when we're trapping for sure, like, some we catch, like, you know, even within females who are not typically the most aggressive sex, like, you will notice that some are kind

• 57:55Speaker 01

  of trying to bite you, even though they don't have teeth, they're kind of trying to, I guess, bite you with their bill, um, whereas some are much more placid. So there is real variation, uh, among individuals in terms of personality.

• 58:08Alie Ward?

  Oh, okay. Magda Kasalka asks, would a platypus be my friend and would they rather do a puzzle and drink tea together or, like, snort coke in a club bathroom? And the answer is it really depends on the platypus then, right?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  I think so, yeah. I think you could get a mix of both.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Is that an invitation?

• 58:26Alie Ward?

  Also, Lena Schuster wanted to know, do they do much? Nathan asked. They seem like they're kind of clumsy and generally incapable is what Nathan Currie says. I'm going to think, Nathan Currie, you try using electromagnetic sensors on your face to find a bug in a mud puddle and just tell me how that goes. But in general, like, are they sleeping a lot or are they pretty like hustle?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, hustling. Like, yeah, they're doing a lot. So you imagine, like I said, they're between one and three kilos, but they're eating these tiny like water bugs, you know, like insignificant in terms of their body weight. So to get the amount of food that they need to survive, they're, sometimes they're foraging up to 16 hours a day. So they're swimming, they're out there, you know, and they're working against different flow conditions, different temperatures. How many water bugs are in the river? Like, they can travel up to 15 kilometers in a day if they feel like it. So they're very capable and they're certainly active. They're also, you know, navigating things kind of outside of that. Like, you know, in a river system, it's not just water. Like, we're navigating

• 59:33Speaker 01

  sometimes waterfalls, you know, rocky areas. Sometimes we need to go over land. So, yeah, they're busy.

• 59:39Alie Ward?

  Oh, I mean, let's be honest, between you and me, are they the best animal? I know that we don't.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:45Alie Ward?

  Okay, that's okay.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  I mean, I might be biased, but yes.

• 59:48Alie Ward?

  No, I think that they are.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  You know, and they have all these incredible features. Like, yeah, I think they're amazing. And like I said before, you know, it's a privilege to be able to work with them.

• 59:57Alie Ward?

  I wouldn't have even asked this, but so many listeners asked, Planet Si, Lorraine, Katie Bell, Colby Evans, Kyla McDonald, Miranda Forreal, so many of you craved this information. Michael Timbrook, Empress of Smallwood, Lisa Vares, Kim, Jen Squirrel Alvarez, Molly, Mia Arcley, Lauren Herlberg, Bridget Wall, Lexa Pur, Denise Sanders, Jenny Yu, Haley Kay, and Planet Si Lorraine asked, they glow blue-green under UV light? For why do they do that? What? I didn't even know that.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  This only came out within the last two years. Someone kind of used these museum specimens to shine a UV light out and found that they glow like a bluish kind of purply tinge, depending on where you're pointing your light. And we don't like, I don't really know the reason for that, to be honest, because we do see that in a lot of native Australian mammals, like it's in our marsupials. Whether that's some way that these animals are communicating with each other, whether it's something to do with predators, whether it's because they're nocturnal. Like, I don't really know the mechanism behind that, but I will admit, we have, after that paper came out, we did purchase a UV light and

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  we do tend to shine it at some platypus and see if we can see the pretty colours.

• 1:01:12Alie Ward?

  I mean, I remember, and that came out about flying squirrels recently too, right? By accident, someone just shined and then everyone's like, well, we gotta go see what's in the collections, right?

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 1:01:23Alie Ward?

  Going back to Perry for a second, Special K wanted to know, do they really sound like

• 1:01:30Alie Ward?

  and what do, what sounds do they make?

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  They don't make a lot of noises. They do do like a bit of grunting, you know, if they're unimpressed with the situation, um, if they're waking up from the anesthesia, they're a bit like, mm, like what's happening to me? We do get some that do like a bit of squeaking when they're waking up, so like really cute, like squeaking sounds, or even like a bit of like a snoring sound when they're waking up from the anesthesia, but that's kind of it, you know, they don't rely much on vocalization, so we don't hear too much for them.

• 1:02:02Alie Ward?

  Well, I mean, they're so cute and people want to take their fur and I understand that they're not doing great, but you've done some recent releases in Royal National Park?

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct, yep.

• 1:02:17Alie Ward?

  And so a lot of people wanted to know just how their conservation is doing, how their populations are doing, what they're affected by. I know so much of your research looks at that, so let's have it.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so again, this is like where all our research kind of leads is we wanna better understand their conservation status. So how many are in the wild, has that declined, you know, what's their range, is that changing? So that's kind of why we're out there at night, we're tagging these animals, we're trying to estimate numbers. But as you can imagine, it's very difficult to even see a platypus. So to study a platypus, you know, it's high effort to try and catch them. And you need to do that repeatedly at a single site to get an understanding of how many platypuses are just at that one site. And even then, that can be inaccurate because obviously these animals, you know, they're not in a closed system. They live in rivers, so they can move upstream, they can move downstream.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  So it's very hard to estimate numbers in one river, let alone their entire range, which is, as I said, is, you know, northern Queensland down to Tasmania.

• 1:03:22Speaker 09

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  So we know for some localized areas that there are declines happening and we know, like, they're threatening processes. So if we think about in Australia, we have a lot of big dams which overlap the distribution of the platypus. So we have issues with water regulation. You know, platypuses, they're dependent on both the river and also the health of the riparian vegetation. So the vegetation alongside rivers where we have a lot of clearing, we have a lot of sedimentation, urbanization, pollution, predators. And the big one is climate change, really, here in Australia. So they've been around for millions of years. They're well adapted to our environment. They know floods, they know fires, they know

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  droughts. But the problem that we're seeing is the increased frequency and intensity of these events. And that they're kind of occurring back to back. So, you know, in the last ten years, we've had some of the worst flooding on records, we've had the worst bushfires on records, and we've had some of the worst droughts. So for an animal that depends on waterways, that is a huge problem. And so we suspect that populations are declining. They're not currently listed as a threatened species, which we're trying to get them listed at because we want them to have the maximum amount of protection. We don't wanna end up in a situation where. They become too far gone and they're listed as a threatened species.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  And, you know, by the time we try to enact any conservation management, you know, they're kind of already beyond that point of no return. So we're really trying to implement some conservation strategies before it's too late.

• 1:04:57Alie Ward?

  Well, Meg Shooter asked, how close are we to getting them on the IUCN red list? And asked if the recent findings of drugs and PFAS and microplastics in the platypus population, would that help get them on the list? And I understand that they absorb a lot of the medications that are in the waterways as well, right?

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's a lot of research coming out about that. Unfortunately, that stuff doesn't feed directly into a nomination under any of the categories for IECN or even our Commonwealth legislation here in Australia. So that stuff is really reliant on providing evidence of declines in numbers, declines in range, is it a small population size? Or can you provide modeling that suggests that this animal is going to go extinct within X amount of years? So we put together a submission in two thousand twenty one to have it listed as a threatened species under both the IECN criteria and our Commonwealth legislation. But as I said, like, it's hard to get that data. It's hard to get the data across the entire range.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  So that nomination was knocked back on the basis of data deficiency with, I guess, they said that there is obvious threats impacting the population, but the data is not strong enough to have it listed at this stage. So, yeah, we're, you know, we're still fighting for it. We're collecting as much data as we can and we'll keep pushing until it gets the protection that it deserves.

• 1:06:21Alie Ward?

  Erin White said, please let them be okay. And Lunar Crumpet said, as an Australian who has seen platypuses in captivity and wants a few tiny splashes and a dark shape in a creek. I wanna know, how can we help?

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I guess for Australians, there's a few things. So when we're doing these nominations, or when we're trying to quantify changes in number and distribution, we can't just rely on our own capture data. You know, I said it's incredibly time consuming, it's expensive, they're widespread. So the number one thing people can do is report their sightings.

• 1:06:55Alie Ward?

  If you Google platypus watch, it'll take you to a form you can fill out to give the wends and the wares and the majesty and the details of your platypus sighting.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  We can kinda use that data to make an attempt to quantify those changes. So if you see a platypus, upload your sightings, it's super helpful for us. It gives us really a much better understanding of where they occur and in what numbers. I would also recommend if you can, like if you live near any rivers, pick up any rubbish. If you see like circular items, so we're talking like hair ties, rubber bands, anything circular that might entangle a platypus, kind of make sure you cut them up before they go into the bin. And then remove any like fishing line. So if you, if you fish, if you utilize rivers or anything like that, make sure you take those fishing line with you

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  because we do see unfortunately, a lot of platypuses, they get entangled and they drown. Bummer. And then I think like joining community groups that are getting involved with like replanting, so you know, revegetation. I said platypus, they really need those nice banks to build their burrows. So we really wanna try and, you know, plant more trees, plant more vegetation that's gonna hold that soil together. That's gonna help them, you know, create their burrows and also encourage all those lovely water bugs back into the system that they need to eat.

• 1:08:16Alie Ward?

  And when you say water bugs, do you mean a lot of different bugs that live in the water? Or do you mean specifically like, like, cause we have these things called water bugs here and like toe biters. But I think you must mean like a lot of different kinds.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so macroinvertebrate water bugs, they'll pretty much eat like whatever's around, to be honest. And they're kind of like a generalist. Um, they've got a few species that they're kind of really keen on, but yeah, generally whatever's available. Like, you know, they can't really distinguish between different species with their bill. So they're kind of just snapping up whatever's around.

• 1:08:47Alie Ward?

  Just like little Pac-Man.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, pretty much.

• 1:08:51Alie Ward?

  Little sweeties. And I mean, you have. Arguably, one of the coolest jobs on the planet. If I could be you researching a platypus or like in space, like hands down, pick your life. Like, how amazing is, other than the car upholstery issue, 10 out of 10?

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an amazing animal to work on. So yeah, very lucky.

• 1:09:15Alie Ward?

  But I always ask at the end, something's gotta suck. What sucks? What, what is, is there anything, is it the poo?

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Oh, there's a lot. There's a lot.

• 1:09:25Alie Ward?

  Sucks.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  You know, like that, I think, um, you know, there's this conception that, oh, cute, platypus is like best job in the world, which don't get me wrong, it is, but, you know, it's also hard work. Like, we're out there in the night, we're wet, we're freezing, you know, it's long hours, we work all through the night and all through the day sometimes. Um, and then there is also, it's not all field work, you know, we have to come back, we have to sit at the desk and write the grants to get the money to do the research, you know, and then write our publications. So there's both sides of it. Like I said, it's the best job in the world, but I think everyone that has a job thinks that there's parts that they could change. But to be honest, all that stuff for me kind of makes it more worthwhile. Like, we have this saying, you know, the bigger the challenge, the bigger the reward.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  So, yeah, we really enjoy what we do.

• 1:10:12Alie Ward?

  What is the biggest reward? What do you love the most about them or about the job?

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Um, I love getting people excited about platypus. And I think that has a real role and effect to caring about like our natural environments here. Like, it's a real flagship species, you know, like people might not know that they have platypus in their local creek or, you know, in their local community. But once you kind of educate them about that and they, they learn, you know, like all the things that are impacting this amazing animal. I feel like it really inspires them to make kind of on-ground change, you know? If, if they're just changing one thing, if they're just, they stop dumping their rubbish or they plant a few trees. Like, I feel like the platypus, it really kind of is a catalyst for these on-ground conservation actions.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  And I really love to see that unfold. You know, I love that it inspires people to get involved in science and conservation.

• 1:11:03Alie Ward?

  Oh, for sure. I mean, can't imagine seeing a flip-flopping platypus in the creek and I'll back, it'll lose my shit, it'll lose my mind.

• 1:11:14Alie Ward?

  Well, this has been thrilling. I didn't know I could love them more. Please tell it that we're rooting for them and that they don't have to wear the fedora. They could take it off.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  Will do. I'll name my next one, Ally, so.

• 1:11:28Alie Ward?

  I can only beg.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was great to chat, buddies.

• 1:11:34Alie Ward?

  So, ask ornithoriconological people unorthodox questions because they can illuminate your curiosities like a black light. Thank you so much, Dr. Tenille Hock, for not only being on Ologies, but for everything you do to keep these floppy, sloppy little puzzles alive and happy. For more on Dr. Hock and the Platypus Conservation Initiative, you can see the links in the show notes. There are also links to our spinoff, Classroom Safe Versions of Ologies, called Smologies, S-M-O-L-O-G-I-E-S, wherever you get podcasts. Merch is at ologiesmerch.com. You can join patreon.com/ologies and perhaps hear your name or your voice on the show. And thank you also for all the lovely reviews. We are at Ologies on Blue Sky on Instagram. I'm Ally Ward at both. Erin Talbert admins the Ologies Podcast Facebook group. Avilene Malik makes our professional transcripts.

• 1:12:19Alie Ward?

  Callie R. Dwyer does the website. Noelle Dilworth does our diurnal and nocturnal calendars as scheduling producer. Den leader of our Stinky Borough is managing director Susan Hale. And stitching the incongruous pieces together each week are Jake Chaffey and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn did the theme music. If you stick around to the very end, you know I may tell you a secret. This week, it's simple. It's hopefully life altering. But if you are a person who struggles with anxiety, as is me, your father, Ward, dad, one way to cut that anxiety by like 50% is to quit coffee, maybe, or whatever source of caffeine is electrocuting your system. Go half-caf. Don't

• 1:13:02Alie Ward?

  have a second cup. You're like, Dad, what's the data? Well, start with the 2024 Frontiers in Psychology paper, Caffeine Intake and Anxiety, a meta-analysis, which looked at hundreds of people in eight different studies and churned out the very like, uh, yeah, conclusion, saying that results confirm that caffeine intake is associated with an elevated risk of anxiety in healthy individuals without psychiatric disorders, especially when the intake dose is greater than 400mg. And I know that you know this. It's very like... Very broad knowledge, but it's one of those things that we're like, eh, the least you can do for yourself is take a scientific approach. Give yourself the gift of less caffeine and reading a book. I know that you know this, but take this as a sign to give it a try.

• 1:13:46Alie Ward?

  You deserve it. We all need it. So do I. With that, goodbye. Pachydermatology, homology, cryptozoology, lithology, nanotechnology, meteorology, geology, geology, geology, seriology, geology.

• 1:14:10Speaker 07

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