#91 Deadmau5

SRS is kicking off 2024 with legendary music producer and DJ Joel Zimmerman, a.k.a. Deadmau5. Deadmau5 has had an incredibly successful music career spanning nine studio albums and seven Grammy Nominations. In this episode, Zimmerman shares his early years coming up in Canada and the dawn of the internet music scene. He breaks down how his first critically acclaimed release came by happenstance and how he ultimately forged a new path in electronic music. Shawn and Joel also unpack how hit songs are made and what it's like to DJ to thousands of people in a digitally equipped mouse head. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://betterhelp.com/shawn https://meetfabric.com/shawn https://helixsleep.com/srs - USE CODE "HELIXPARTNER20" https://hvmn.com/shawn https://moinkbox.com/shawn https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Deadmau5 Links: Tour - https://deadmau5.com/shows Merch - https://mau5hop.com IG - https://www.instagram.com/deadmau5 X - https://twitter.com/deadmau5 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/artist/2CIMQHirSU0MQqyYHq0eOx Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/gb/artist/deadmau5/78011850 Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Mr. President? My company tore me of the explosion on our rig.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  On October 2nd.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is.

• 0:40Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 0:46Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stall, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 0:53Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:01Shawn Ryan?

  Happy New Year, everybody. This is the first episode of 2024, and let me tell you, it is a banger. And 2024 is going to be one hell of a year. It's gonna be hard to top 2023, but we'll do it. We always do. So anyways, this is a story about a man who made it big by not complying with the typical industry mandate BS. Went off on his own, paved his own way, and it paid off big time. And I happen to be a huge fan of this man's music. I can't wait to get this episode out. It's been in the can for a little while,

• 1:44Shawn Ryan?

  and I've been so excited to get it out. If you guys get anything out of these episodes, please head over to Apple and Spotify. Leave us a review. Like, comment and subscribe to the channel and for those of you that already know, actually those that don't know, there are tons of free reels you can download, create your own thing, put them on your channel, whatever social media platform you want, monetize it, make money. All we ask is that you tag the show. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, please welcome my new friend, Joel Zimmerman, also known as Dead

• 2:24Shawn Ryan?

  Mouse, to the Sean Ryan Show. Love you all. Cheers and Happy New Year.

• 2:36Shawn Ryan?

  Joel Zimmerman, welcome to the Sean Ryan Show, man.

• 2:39Speaker 06

  This is great. I like this.

• 2:41Shawn Ryan?

  I'm glad you like it. Dude, I am like pumped to have you here. Yes, absolutely. I didn't tell you last night, but I am a, I'm a huge fan, man. Yes.

• 2:52Speaker 06

  Like what's like since like forever ago?

• 2:56Shawn Ryan?

  Since, man, I don't know when it started, but I have done, the majority of my partying career has been to your music. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's Do It Overseas, when I was fighting, like, I love your stuff, man. It's so unique.

• 3:14Speaker 06

  I get a lot of emails from, you know, active service dudes and stuff like this saying, hey, I'm over here and, you know, we listen to your while I'm doing this. I'm like, wow, that's crazy.

• 3:24Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, man. We used to listen to you before, uh, before operations. Getting ready. So, it was, yeah, it's pretty surreal. But, um, but let me give you an intro here real quick. So Joel Zimmerman, AKA Dead Mouse, one of the top EDM music producers in the world. You've been at it for roughly 28 years. You brought dubstep to the mainstream, five platinum singles, seven Grammy nominations. One of them was what, two days ago?

• 3:53Speaker 06

  Two days ago, yeah.

• 3:54Shawn Ryan?

  Two days, which one was that for?

• 3:56Speaker 06

  I didn't even announce it on the plane.

• 3:57Shawn Ryan?

  Are you serious?

• 3:58Speaker 06

  Did you, did you see? I was, I was on my way, um, to the show actually this morning and I, I doom scroll. That's me. I love it. Like, I don't know why. It's not like, you know, like I'm a sadist or anything, but I just, I like. Weird subreddits and one of them is called I'm the main character and it's just you know like clips of people in public like just filming other people unknownst of them being absolute weirdos and there was a young woman on the flight on a united flight or something like that and it's one of those like you know I'm in a seat aisle phone things and this lady starts singing on the plane and I was like oh man what is this like and then she's going off

• 4:39Speaker 06

  about how she was just nominated for a Grammy and and I'm like reading this and all the comments and they're like oh it's so cringy it turns out that the young woman actually was but like as a backup singer on an album that was some gospel album that was released I was like holy shit no and she's like telling the flight attendant telling you know yelling at the plane like while they're all like you know eating their chicken and or beef you know and they're like I just got nominated for Grammy like there were like five claps and then a lot of like deep sighs like yo can I just enjoy my flight

• 5:15Shawn Ryan?

  You didn't chime in?

• 5:18Speaker 06

  On the comments?

• 5:19Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 06

  I want to I wish I was on that flight though.

• 5:25Shawn Ryan?

  Programmer developer adrenaline junkie innovator and you know one of the things that I really like about you and we just kind of spoke about it downstairs is I'm getting people on this show that don't conform to society's unwritten rules and what I mean by that is is you're an innovator and your music is in my opinion very it's just very unique it's very different than everybody else that's out there and and I just want to tell you man I really appreciate the fact

• 6:06Shawn Ryan?

  that you have that courage to just go out do your own thing and it works and it's awesome.

• 6:11Speaker 06

  Oh cool.

• 6:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 06

  I mean I I guess I've kind of always you know did my own thing so to speak but but you know with that too you do kind of have to conform to some things you know what I mean where it's like where you can still be you know at these events where other people who are doing similar things to you where there's some kind of Cohesion.

• 6:35Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:35Speaker 06

  You know, otherwise you get just absolute chaos and randomness and then that's where you get that weird insane genius line kind of thing happening.

• 6:44Shawn Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:44Speaker 06

  You know, and yeah, so but that's cool. Like I um, I try, I make an effort, you know, to kind of invent.

• 6:53Shawn Ryan?

  It shows. I mean, you got a very, it's just a very distinct style or sound or or whatever you guys call it in the music industry, but it's it's awesome.

• 7:05Speaker 06

  Cool.

• 7:05Shawn Ryan?

  So, thank you for being here. Um, yeah, but everybody, before we go too deep, everybody gets a gift.

• 7:13Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 7:16Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 7:17Shawn Ryan?

  Ooh. Nothing crazy, just something to enjoy on the way home.

• 7:24Speaker 06

  Gummy bears.

• 7:25Shawn Ryan?

  Gummy bears.

• 7:26Speaker 06

  Eight ounces per bag.

• 7:28Shawn Ryan?

  They're legal.

• 7:29Speaker 06

  What are they?

• 7:29Shawn Ryan?

  It's just gummy bears. It's just candy.

• 7:32Speaker 06

  Okay. In 2023, I'm like, can I eat these?

• 7:36Shawn Ryan?

  We.

• 7:36Speaker 06

  Do I have to make plans? Can I cancel my day before I I pound some of these? Actual gummy bears.

• 7:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, it's just gummy bears, man.

• 7:43Speaker 06

  That's amazing. I gotta put these around the house and they're gonna be like, bro, I didn't know you were into that.

• 7:50Shawn Ryan?

  But um.

• 7:50Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 7:51Shawn Ryan?

  So you're welcome. So we kind of met through, well, we didn't kind of meet through, we met through Bryce Case Jr. And who I just interviewed and his is coming out on Thanksgiving and um, he had mentioned to me that he knows you and I said, oh, man, I would love to. I would love to interview that.

• 8:10Speaker 06

  And we made it happen real quick.

• 8:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. So how do you know Bryce?

• 8:14Speaker 06

  Um, I I've known of Bryce, right, forever. Um, he's a nerd core rapper, dude, you know, like, and that's like the one side of him. And we all know the other side of him and he's just a super smart guy, good dude to bounce ideas off of and in talk tech and nerd shit and lol stuff and all that. So we've been, me and him have like circulated in those communities like since the dawn of the internet, basically. So he's just a, he's an OG. And, you know, and I have, you know, always had the utmost respect for the dude and, you know, the things he's done and, you know, it's just.

• 8:57Speaker 06

  All this approach to solving problems, I guess, you know, in the technical world and stuff like that, when it comes to like anti-sack and stuff like that. So, uh, we, uh, we actually kind of really got together when he had posted an acapella of one of his songs on the website. And he, he, he became friends with one of my great friends, Steve Duda, for a minute there, who's another software developer, but he, he does more audio software. And I remember doing this song and it was almost complete. And I was like, man, I gotta get, I'm just like, you know, finish the track and, and me and Steve are sitting in the studio. I was like, I'm trying to just run through what rapper would be great on this track kind of thing.

• 9:42Speaker 06

  And then Steve mentioned, he goes, oh, you should get Bryce. Um, duh, duh, duh, duh. And then I was like, oh yeah. And I was looking him up again. I was like, oh, he's got all this, like, all this new stuff and na, na, na. And then in his folder, he had acapellas, which means it's just his voice with no music and stuff like that. So he would like, he just put that up on his site for people to use, I guess. So I just, I literally one-to-one that acapella and then laid it in the track and it worked perfectly. And I was like, oh, this is the dream. Okay, cool. And I'm like, give me Bryce's, like, actual contact. And he's like, yeah, it's just, oh, I won't say it, but the email is so blatantly hilarious, you know? And I was like, oh my God, like this guy's, he's still legit, you know? So I hit him up and he was like, hell yeah, let's, let's put this out

• 10:27Speaker 06

  officially. So then, easy breezy, I own the label and I control everything. So it's just like, yeah, let's do it. That's awesome. Yeah. How far back do you guys go? Well, like, I, I mean, like, i- i- in birds of a feather way, you know what I mean? It's not like, we're like, we've been besties for a while. It's just, you know, I'm sure he's, he's heard my name in passing. I've heard his name in passing, but like.

• 10:52Speaker 06

  Late nineties? Late nineties, that long? Yeah. That's like over twenty years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but knowing of each other, not necessarily interacting or, you know, working on the same kind of projects. We were in kind of two different camps. I was in hashtag audio apps and I'm pretty sure he was more twenty six hundred kind of guy. I don't know, actually. We never really talked about it. What does that mean, twenty six hundred? Twenty six hundred is like just an old IRC group or Usenet group, just like hackers from back in the day, like when it was all dial up. There was no internet. There was, it was, it was pre AOL, it was pre, you know, Netscape. Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 06

  You know, it's just, you know, just like phone hacker dudes and people who exploited like fax data modem lines and stuff like that. And it was just a little group of dudes. So this is like, this is your childhood? Kind of, yeah. Yeah, but I never got into it deep as some of my friends, right? So like, I'll admit it, I was a bit of a script kitty when I was a kid because like the internet for me was like IRC or something like that. And then the most damage, you know, evil hacker stuff I would do is run some like teardrop scripts on IRC because I was the only kid in the neighborhood who had like a cable modem that it was brand new and you can get like a mega second so you could ping flood this kid you don't like off

• 12:22Speaker 06

  the IRC channel. We K line them and we do all this like dumb stupid kid shit, you know? We're talking like fifteen, sixteen years old, you know, just, you know, trying to have the big internet dick, you know? Yeah. And that stuff because there was, there were really no like in play systems that, you know, were in our reach to like really get involved and we didn't care about.

• 12:47Speaker 06

  You know, white hating, anything, you know, we just were just dumb little shits. It's all, it was all brand new back then, huh? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was, it was cool. And that's what was interesting, you know, so it's like a lot of, um, I think maybe that's like kind of contributable to like, why I, I might do things a little unconventionally a lot of times because I, I, I honestly believe that I was probably the only kid in high school that was like even into that thing. I didn't have a group. You know what I mean? In, in like in real life, you know, of dudes that, hey, come over, let's hang out. Let's make a BBS, you know, which was, that was the internet. It was bulletin board system. So you had to like, you know,

• 13:27Speaker 06

  pick up your phone, put it on a thing and use a 2600 baud rate modem, which is like unbelievably slow compared, compared to like today. And it was text only. So all the artwork weren't JPGs and stuff like that. Those, those even weren't a thing. It was, it was assy art. So like pictures of things that were made up of letters and numbers, you, you sometimes see it. But that's what it was back in the day and we used to, we used to play games with, um, it's before email was invented, actually. Damn. A genie came first and then email and stuff like that. But, but what you had to do is you, you would

• 14:07Speaker 06

  start a computer up and you would run a BBS, like a bulletin board system. So your computer would act as a server and only one person could connect to you at a time. So if you call a BBS and it's busy, it means someone's on it. So it's like, it's imagine an internet where you go to the webpage, but the webpage can only be displayed to one person at a time. And until they're done using it. So that's what kind of how a BBS worked, right? But then, then Renegade BBS, uh, I think was the first one to support what was called a dual node BBS, meaning two people could be on it, but you needed two phone lines to do it. So two people could be on the, the same BBS at the same time. And that just blew my mind, right? Because a guy from Toledo, Ohio, and I could be in there and we could be playing Legend of the Red Dragon together.

• 14:52Speaker 06

  Or, or, you know, like, which is like a text based. RPG kind of dumb thing, you know, where you could log in, log out, let someone else go on and stuff like that. But there was a point where, you know, two people could be connected at the same time. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm talking to a guy in Toledo for free, like, or

• 15:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 06

  ish. You know what I mean? You just have to pay a long distance if you had to call a BBS in Toledo, right? But it was just, it blew my mind. And, you know, I was like, oh, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm talking to a person and they're like, okay, that's, you know, I can't wrap my head around that. But you do you, boo.

• 15:24Shawn Ryan?

  Well, how old were you when this was happening?

• 15:27Speaker 06

  Hey, thirteen, fourteen, five, I don't know, dude.

• 15:31Shawn Ryan?

  That's a blur.

• 15:32Speaker 06

  I was young. I was a kid.

• 15:34Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's get it.

• 15:35Speaker 06

  I was still, I was, it was probably like, grade seven. So, yeah, probably when I was like, thirteen.

• 15:41Shawn Ryan?

  This stuff is fascinating to me. Let's, let's dive into your childhood. Where, where did you grow up?

• 15:47Speaker 06

  I grew up in the thriving metropolis of Niagara Falls, Ontario. So the pretty side of Niagara Falls. So we had the, like, the, because the falls is actually on the American side. So, but we get the view, which is pretty funny. Yeah, they're like, we want the falls. Well, I find, have them. You know, it's like a big thing, right? And you have to look over to see them. And they're like, okay, fine. So that's where they drew the line, I guess. And, um, yeah, it was interesting, man, because it's, um, it's a very like touristy place. So, growing up, your destiny was working at Marineland or a hotel, or, you know, some tourist attraction thing, you know, that was it. Like, it's, it's very tourism. Well, I don't, it still is, I guess, but like, um,

• 16:32Speaker 06

  that was your destiny. Yeah. And, um, so, part of grade school was like, I'm not, I'm seeing it now, is that they would teach a lot of, uh, French and Spanish and, and stuff like that, so that you could accommodate, you know, like, because you're gonna, you know what I mean? It's like, it's, it was kind of depressing when you think about it now. But the, yeah, they really kind of like, kind of groomed you up to be in the service industry, if you lived in Niagara Falls for a minute, you know?

• 17:00Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding.

• 17:01Speaker 06

  Not too many people that I know, like, kind of got out and went and did not Niagara Falls things.

• 17:08Shawn Ryan?

  Were you in the service industry?

• 17:10Speaker 06

  Uh, no, no, no, no, I escaped it. Like, I mean, I just didn't do anything. I was just a little shit in my mom's house, playing on the computer, like, trying to think of a way out, you know?

• 17:24Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:24Speaker 06

  Um, I'm not saying like that's every kid in Niagara Falls. I might be over-exaggerating that, but that's what it felt like, you know what I mean? So.

• 17:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Um, what were you into?

• 17:34Speaker 06

  I was into music and computers and, and computers were so like a fad. You know, they weren't, people weren't using them at work, you know, or for work or anything like that, because these things were, that was like the dawn of the, the, the two eighty-six, you know what I mean? Which was like the hobby machine plus, you know? Um, and they didn't really have courses in school that had anything to do with a computer, but they did, uh, you know, when I started getting to high school, they, they started to introduce networking or simple things or, or whatever. And that was cool, but like, uh,

• 18:14Speaker 06

  the computer when I was a kid wasn't a tool. It was more of like a hobby machine. It was like a, a Nintendo plus, you know, for whatever, you know? So, yeah, we had a typewriter, you know?

• 18:27Shawn Ryan?

  So you, you grew up in the age where you went from the typewriter to the computer? So how did you get into computers?

• 18:36Speaker 06

  Well.

• 18:37Shawn Ryan?

  Like, what was the fascination?

• 18:38Speaker 06

  The fascination was, was the little PC speaker. The beep, that's it. There were no DACs. There were no sound cards of the first computers that I owned. They were just like little PC speakers and they could just emulate monophonic tones and stuff like that. And, uh, at that time too, my parents enrolled me into like, uh, like classical piano and stuff, just like shit to do after school till they're done work. And then I go home kind of thing. So I, I did that for a while and I, I got, I got a lot of like classical, like kind of drilled into me and I was a little reluctant, um, because it was more, we spent more time like doing drills than farting around, you know, playing songs I like, you know, or, or something like that. And, um,

• 19:21Speaker 06

  I developed really great muscle memory like so that I I I think in some alternate reality, I would have been a great pianist, but I just I liked the computer and I wanted to do what I was doing there on the computer, but there was no software really available for PC. Mind you, we had Atari STs, which were early PCs that ran BASIC as an operating system, and they had some music making capability, but it was MIDI only, meaning that the computer itself didn't produce audio, it just produced MIDI signal to go to synthesizers that had that capability to do it, and there were very few and far between, as there is today

• 20:05Speaker 06

  for that kind of thing. And it was really expensive for the MIDI gear, you know, not so much the computer. So there was like CLAB and Octamed, and they were just big pieces of hardware that you would, you know, plug a MIDI cable into, and it was like, kind of a, some people might know what I'm referring to, is like a tracker style of composing music, not so much like notation or MIDI notes and stuff like that. And I basically experienced creating music through the evolution of, through to into the computer age.

• 20:43Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 20:43Speaker 06

  Which is crazy, when I think about it, how fortunate I am to be able to see it from when it was just barely possible to now, you know, whereas like, I see a lot of like, you know, younger people trying to get into music, and they just have all, everything ready to go, here's all the tools, and not to say that that they're at a disadvantage there, because they don't know the history, but it's just really interesting to see where it's kind of heading, and where it's been, and what worked, what didn't, and that kind of thing, from the start.

• 21:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, so, I mean, you, we had kind of spoken last night about it, we're gonna go back to childhood, but I'm jumping around here, but we'd kind of talked about it last night, about some of the, about your music versus some of the other DJs out there, and some of the, some of the... Overexaggeration when you see a guy on set.

• 21:36Speaker 06

  Okay, well, that's that's like kind of two different arenas. I feel, I don't know. Um, and I've been harping on it and I'm sure it's all very readable and look upable. But like a DJ traditionally, right? This is like,

• 21:53Speaker 06

  it's it's like it's like talking about shit you shouldn't talk about because you're always going to bum somebody out. And I, and I don't, I've always like, I don't waste too much time thinking about it, but I've always tried to think of this like totally Geneva answer for what a DJ is, you know what I mean? Because they're like, I'm like, okay, and it's like fundamental, a DJ plays music, right? He's a, he's a human iPod. And then

• 22:21Speaker 06

  with all due respect, you get dudes like Mixmaster Mike and, uh, you know, uh, Qbert and, and DJs who are like technical scratch DJs who play on whatever. And they're like, no, this is like an art. Or Kid Koala, right? Who's made an entire album out of turntablism and stuff like that. And you're like, okay, yes, also a DJ, but that's different. You know what I mean? And then, and then a DJ who uses controllers and no traditional DJ equipment, also DJing. You know what I mean? But doing it live, there's a guy right now who's absolutely destroying everything. This guy called Fred again, and he does a lot of, you know, pad whacking and stuff like that.

• 23:01Speaker 06

  And, you know, is he making an album up there? Well, he could, you know, to a degree, you know what I mean? But he's doing a lot of sampling. He's doing a lot of like, you know, cutting and stuff like that. And that's another thing, but you could also say, oh, he's DJing. You know, playing back some elements of pre-recorded material, you know what I mean? So that there's your answer. There's like eight fucking hundred ways to skin the DJ cat, right? And I think now, at least the last like 10 years, people have gotten smarter to know that he's not up there like just like a jazz musician creating original music for you on the fly. I'm so glad that era is gone, you know, because when electronic music became, you know, more and more popular and

• 23:46Speaker 06

  producers were producing music, but then they're like, well, what are we, how are we going to do this on the stage? You know, cuz this me in the studio is like listening to the same fucking loop for like fucking thirty hours straight back to back trying to find tune shit. You know what I mean? That is not something you could sit through and have a great time to, you know, like it's it's annoying, you know, it's but it's work, you know, it's like it's like a painter, you know, like you can watch like a painter, like like a finger painter guy like, uh, what's his name? Uh, you see, I Garbaldi or whatever, and he he he does these like really quick halftime during a sporting event kind of finger painting of an artist and it's like boom, it's done. That's entertaining because he can do it in like five minutes and have a really cool

• 24:30Speaker 06

  thing, right? But if you're, you know, try to imagine a crowd gathered under Leonardo at the Sistine Chapel.

• 24:42Speaker 06

  And this guy's like,

• 24:47Shawn Ryan?

  It does put things into perspective.

• 24:49Speaker 06

  I'm just saying, you know what I mean? So it's it's all about the methodology and the delivery of, you know, um, good and short or amazing and, you know, high effort.

• 25:03Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, so thank you. Let's let's go back to childhood now. So we we were talking about how you got into computers, programming, a little bit of hacking.

• 25:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:15Shawn Ryan?

  How did music come into play? Where did the inspiration come from?

• 25:20Speaker 06

  Well, I I think it was it wasn't music

• 25:25Speaker 06

  fell in, um, because I like I think I was I was decided around, you know, when I was like eight or nine, I'm like, I don't care what I do when I'm older, as long as it involves a little computer, you know what I mean? I'll be a graphics designer, I'll be a programmer, I'll be a I don't give a shit, I'll be a little hacker. I don't I don't know, you know what I mean? So but but I just I want to be at this computer, I want to be hunched over and unhealthy in my forties.

• 25:51Speaker 06

  Um, I, that's what I wanted to do, but then, you know, like I'm thinking, okay, well, like I, I started hobbying music myself, like researching what little resource I had. I, I had to go to the public library to read up on like digital audio, you know, because again, like there was an internet, there was BBSs and there was Archie and Gopher and all that stuff too, but very limited on how to make a club banger. You know what I mean? Like they, no, it just didn't even exist. So I had to find people, you know, that, that did that kind of thing. Cause there were electronic musicians back there before me, you know, and, and, and while I was interested in it. Who, who was, who was before you?

• 26:33Speaker 06

  Tears for Fears. They were electronic, Nine Inch Nails were doing stuff, um, very early. Um, like when they were 10,000 Homomaniacs, that kind of that, that era and, and stuff like that. Uh, Ministry, all that early, um, industrial stuff, uh, Skinny Puppy. I, I, I actually leaned more towards, I, I, dude, club music wasn't even on my radar, like the No kidding. Oh, fuck. Oh, no. It was all early industrial stuff. Like my dad bought that, remember that Columbia House deal where you buy like, oh, CDs for a penny? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They come in magazines? Yeah, I was, uh, I was one of those kids. So, um, Me too.

• 27:14Speaker 06

  Yeah. And my dad went out and said, oh, I don't know, you know, but my dad, he's not, my dad's not into music. We don't find him barefoot in front of the record player, you know, with his harmon corn, you know, like, no, no, no. He just, he just like, might as well. But a receiver, CD player and the whole thing. We're just like, holy shit. Like that's a weird thing to splurge on dad, you know, like, cause it's just totally not his thing. Yeah. He's a auto manufacturer guy. He worked at General Motors, you know, he, he drove around tow motors and he was just man's man, you know, like, and, and we weren't very, very, um,

• 27:53Speaker 06

  Lower middle class upbringing, just standard family shit, you know, so it was really weird to come home from school one day and see my dad like unboxing a CD player, you know, I was like, oh geez, okay, here we go. Okay, so and then he I, I honestly, I'm not like incredibly close with my dad, but I like, he liked some music like The Doors and stuff like that. So I think he just got like the best of The Doors. And I don't know, dealer's choice for the other seven. So they sent some weird shit, right? So we got like a warrant. Um, uh, Steely Dan, the best of Steely Dan, uh, some U21 and, uh, you know what I mean? Just kind of like a mixed bag of shit, right? And I was like, okay, well, these are the eight CDs we own. I'm

• 28:37Speaker 06

  and this is what I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna fucking listen to this shit because there's nothing else to fucking do. You know, so they're really like, I was that bored when I was a kid, right? So, um, I would just find myself sitting in front of the CD player, like just fucking listening to shit. And, and what, what I liked was, was the Tears for Fears album. It was really cool because like, yeah, warrant, you know, and YouTube. And then, uh, everything else was all very, you know, constructive. Steely Dan shit was groovy. It was cool like, but again, I don't think my musical brain was developed enough to be able to differentiate between the, the play styles and stuff like that of these like uh, stapled musicians who have guitars, drums and bass, but they're all kind of doing their own thing. They have their own style. There's funk. There's this and that.

• 29:21Speaker 06

  But the thing that really stood out was the Tears for Fears shit. And I'm like, that's not a fucking guitar. And those aren't real drums. You know what I mean? They're, they're, it's all You could figure it out.

• 29:31Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, of course you could, you know, you know, guitar when you hear it, you know what I mean? And you know, drums when you hear it and you know, a synth when you hear it, you know, and you're like, oh, wait, you know? And so I, listening to the Tears for Fears stuff, I was like, wow, this is really cool because it's all done by computers, obviously it has to, or some form of thing, you know, I was so, I had no fucking idea how this was being made. So, you know, I gotta, I gotta go figure it out. Um, so this is before dance music was probably out in some pockets somewhere, but it just wasn't on my radar at all. Um, this is shit. This had to be.

• 30:06Speaker 06

  Nineteen ninety-two?

• 30:08Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, early nineties.

• 30:09Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Like, so yeah, there there wasn't. There was, Chicago was just starting it, basically, you know, or in Detroit and stuff like that. Or in some pockets of Europe and shit like that. So like, but again, it just never got to me.

• 30:22Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 06

  Cause there was no mass media. There's no internet. There's no nothing. You just kinda had to wait.

• 30:28Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 06

  So I researched into like, oh, well, what's Tears for Fears doing so differently than that warrant in U2 and Steely Dan, you know, aren't, oh, well, they're using computers and da, da, da, da, da. And, you know, again, like, I'm so bummed out and and so kinda envious of like, if a kid today heard that. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Just YouTube that, you know, and there it is, you know, me, I had a fucking, I was swimming in the fucking dark. It sucked.

• 30:56Speaker 06

  So, yeah. Back in my day. And um, that was really cool. So that was the connection, I think, was that the Tears for Fears shit off that Columbia House fucking CD player deal that like stood out from those other seven albums. And I was like, oh, okay.

• 31:14Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, from what I understand, you you were, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were one of the first to make music from computers in the electronic space.

• 31:24Speaker 06

  Hell, no.

• 31:24Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 31:25Speaker 06

  Fuck, no, dude, not by a generation.

• 31:28Shawn Ryan?

  Not even close.

• 31:28Speaker 06

  The first to make music with a computer?

• 31:31Shawn Ryan?

  Well, with the, in the EDM world.

• 31:34Speaker 06

  Oh, no.

• 31:36Shawn Ryan?

  Roger that.

• 31:37Speaker 06

  I think that's bullshit.

• 31:38Shawn Ryan?

  Well, how did you get started then?

• 31:40Speaker 06

  If we're talking about the first to make music, oh, Jean Jacques Perret in the fifties was probably making electronic music?

• 31:47Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 31:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, fuck, yeah. Check out the on, on need a, need a lean? It's a synth. It's, but it's not a compute, it is computer, but it's not microchips. It's valves, like, like, um.

• 32:02Speaker 06

  I don't even know how to fucking explain this thing. You're gonna just have to research this. O N E. A needle lean or whatever, like Jean Jacques Perret. And uh, there are some other guys too, like it's just totally escaping me right now. Cause I know someone's gonna come and go, um, actually, but like, we're talking like, you know, the fifties, they were, they were making electronic.

• 32:23Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 32:23Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:24Shawn Ryan?

  Around that long.

• 32:25Speaker 06

  Doctor Who, those dudes, the EMS synth. I have synths that are twice as old as me. That I still use today.

• 32:32Shawn Ryan?

  Well, how did um, so what does it, I mean, what does it look like when you started making music? I mean, cause it was, I mean, I, it wasn't.

• 32:39Speaker 06

  It was.

• 32:39Shawn Ryan?

  I wasn't listening to it. I'd never even heard about it.

• 32:42Speaker 06

  What did it look like?

• 32:44Shawn Ryan?

  What did it look like making music on a computer in the early nineties?

• 32:49Speaker 06

  Well, it, it, that it could have been a number of ways, really. I, I, my first computer, when I really started making music, I had a Korg. Um. God, I can't remember. A poly. A rack mount, it's, it's not a poly six. It's like a poly six, but it's, it's the rack version of it. So meaning it was just a module. Okay? So no keys, just, just a box. Um, and it had some buttons on it and stuff like that. And then it had a midi in and a midi out. And then an audio out, right? So what I had to do is I had, I had an Atari S T that was basically a Commodore.

• 33:31Speaker 06

  Sixty-four more or less that, that ran this software that sent messages to this box to say, hey, play this note, play that, you know, so it's kind of like a little sequencer thing, but that's just one piece of equipment. And, and, and that was at a time for me, it looked like, like, you know, electronic music or, or making music. Uh, or accompaniments to your band with electronic components, like a drum machine or a synthesizer was just coming of age, you know? So it means, meaning that like, yes, it's been around since like, you know, the sixties and fifties. Uh, Pink Floyd use, were, were huge purveyors of electronic music. On the run was an EMS, uh, Synthy A, which is like a.

• 34:13Speaker 06

  Really ancient old synth with like bank dial kind of vaults on them and they did the that's all like that's as far as I'm concerned. Yes, that's electronic music, not as we really know what it is. So if you say to someone, oh, you listen to electronic music, people do not go that far back and go, oh, yeah, I love Pink Floyd, you know, but you wouldn't be wrong, you know, they employed a lot of that stuff. The Beatles too. So it's it's in it's in like doses.

• 34:43Shawn Ryan?

  The Beatles were doing it too?

• 34:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, they used they used a few electronic instruments.

• 34:47Shawn Ryan?

  No, good. I had no idea.

• 34:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, most of it was Sergeant Pepper stuff.

• 34:52Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 34:52Speaker 06

  Like when they started getting a little weird.

• 34:56Speaker 06

  Hot take, I hate the Beatles.

• 34:59Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, shit. But when when did you I mean, because this was strictly a hobby until what around 1995? Is that true?

• 35:10Speaker 06

  No, it was still a hobby then. It was a hobby all the way to 2000.

• 35:14Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 35:15Speaker 06

  For sure. I know because I had jobs that whole time, right?

• 35:19Speaker 00

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• 35:48Speaker 01

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• 35:59Speaker 03

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• 36:05Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped going? You start, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 36:12Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 36:18Shawn Ryan?

  That's what I'm getting into.

• 36:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, right. My first job was working for this fucking guy, printing T-shirts. He wanted to start like a clothing company. He was an all right guy. He was just kind of shady, but he wanted to start a clothing line like a kind of like skate brand kind of stuff too. So it wasn't like ho hotty kuderati fucking menswear. It was just literally.

• 36:41Speaker 06

  You know, putting, drawing logos in Illustrator and then printing them and then going to a press and then doing that and then bringing them down, literally down to the store and just selling them out of a storefront. That was fun. It's good learning experience for like what it's like to have a job. You know what I mean? Like, I took nothing from it. You know what I mean? It's other than, yeah, okay, this is what it's like to have to wake up at fucking nine, get driven 20 minutes to the mall, you know what I mean? And go sit there all fucking day and just pick my nose and do this. And then jerk out at five o'clock and, and make like a couple hundred bucks every two weeks. Cool.

• 37:22Speaker 06

  Then I worked in a cannery. That was fucked. That was a real fucking job. That was, that was the worst job ever for me. Because I had to, they, in Niagara is the best region for pears, peaches and wine. Like Niagara on the Lake, it's just the way that the geology is, the, the soil and stuff like that. They make some of the best wine in the world down there, right? No good. So everything grows like fucking crazy out there, right? So when peach and pear season starts, it's 24/7 at the Del Monte processing plant. It's like one of the big ones, but they, there's a few down there, but the big one's Del Monte. And they, when, when those are in season, they have to run that shit 24 fucking seven. So you had two shifts. You had like a day shift and night shift.

• 38:06Speaker 06

  So I had to do the fucking show up at one in the morning. Can I swear, by the way? Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, because I, I really do a lot. Um, so I had to go at like five in the morning till like 2:00 PM. You know what I mean? I had that shift, right? So I'm already just out of it because this is also when I'm like learning to make music. So I'm like up all day on a fucking computer and then, oh shit, I gotta go to work. Okay, cool. But I'm like fresh for like an hour, but then I just start fading and I'm like, and I had to, I had a number of jobs there, but like, but the one I hated the most was you gotta like, basically watch a conveyor belt of peaches or pears, depends what you were doing. Uh, and then you had a little like knife.

• 38:48Speaker 06

  And if one got away with like a stem on it, you had to, and then put it back on the belt. Or load the, or you had to load the peeler machine, which was sketchy as fuck. I can't believe they let like a fucking 15 year old kid do this, but there, there's this machine and they, and there, there's one, like about six cups. And you have to be fucking fast or you're gonna lose your fucking hand. It was crazy. I couldn't believe it. I I I hope they still don't do this and I but it it was not so so these pears or peaches would come out and you had to go one, two, three, four, five, six, and then this machine would just go right and then load them into this fucking thing. And it was like a like a the open end of a V eight. You know what I mean? Like with no barrier, nothing like if you were too slow in that thing.

• 39:31Speaker 06

  I've never seen it or heard of it, but I'm like, wow, you could really get hurt on this fucking thing. And they had me like this fifteen sixteen year old kid fucking doing this, right? And then like, it's like a race. And so I had to do that all night to the point where it's like I my mom caught me like doing this in my sleep and she's like, like, thought I was having a nightmare, but it's just because I'm I've been doing it like all week. And to this fucking day, I will not go anywhere near a peach. Because my first day on the job, I was like, oh, peaches, meat, no, no. Every time I smell a peach or get peach in something, it's like

• 40:12Speaker 06

  because it's just like it's just permeated and stained this part of my brain, which is Yeah, I have P T S D.

• 40:23Shawn Ryan?

  Where did you go after that? What was the next job?

• 40:26Speaker 06

  Um.

• 40:29Speaker 06

  What did I do after that?

• 40:32Speaker 06

  I think it was just like dumb shit odd jobs for like a year or two. And then um, then I got a real job um with a company in Toronto, because I was, mind you, this whole time, I'm like still like mostly focusing my time and energy and thought power on music and computers, right? So um, there was a software company that had just started out very popular now, but they were just like a bunch of goofballs out in the Netherlands, you know, that used to, they used to make porn, uh, interactive porn games and stuff like that. And this company called Image Line. And um, and the guy that owns a really, really cool dude, this Jean-Marie Kanye dude,

• 41:13Speaker 06

  oh, cardigan wearing, typical Belgian dude, you know, businessman. And uh, he had a uh, a programmer um, named Didier Danbrun, working for him on this thing. And then, and I guess as it goes, is this guy who programmed uh, just basically like these kind of adult games. Weird, but it's a business. Um, on a company time, I guess he kind of developed a, a music software, like a, a simple step sequencer, because there were one or two out that, that were okay. There was like Hammerhead, uh, which I think was the big inspiration for this software. And there was Rubber Duck.

• 41:57Speaker 06

  And these are like primitive, like we're talking like rock, you know, the invention of the wheel, like audio softwares that were almost usable, you know, so there was Hammerhead. There were, there's always been trackers that had predated that like five years ago. But anyway, it was just a bunch of dudes, you know, just chilling out and doing this. And then uh, Jean-Marie, the big, the business guy that owned that company, I guess, kind of said, what are you doing? You know, he's like, oh, I'm just, you know, kind of making this audio looper software stuff. He's, instead of firing his ass, you know, fucking best decision he ever made. So, okay, you know, he kind of culminated that. And let's go in this direction. And

• 42:41Speaker 06

  and they did. And then it went to like version one, two, three, four, five, whatever. And then um, uh, over the years, they, they started to gain popularity because uh, a, a select few uh, hip hop guys started really liking this software, right? And they were like, oh, this is great. We should just use this. Cause they were, the other alternatives were like really expensive suites, like Cakewalk, Cubase, or you know, these, these high-powered systems that required all this additional hardware. Meanwhile, this guy out in Belgium's making this like kind of easy to use, cheap as free. Software that, well, you know, doesn't behave the same, doesn't sound the same and, you know, but, but gets something done, right? So a lot of attention started to get to that and then,

• 43:26Speaker 06

  and then it was in those like that, those three, four years, we started to see all these like little DAW projects pop up, DAW meaning digital audio workstation. That's like your all encompassing software that makes music, right? Because Steinberg had come out with this new technology called virtual studio technology and that's called VST. People call it just plugins now, right? But it's actually just patented software from Steinberg, which is like a kind of language or a framework that digital signal process engineers can make things like a reverb or a

• 44:06Speaker 06

  distortion pedal or something like that. It's all done in this VST architecture. So that that just started blowing everyone's mind because they're like, wait, I don't need to buy an external compressor. This will run as software and I could just plug it in on a track and they're like, yeah, dude, you know? So they invented that. And so And you were a part of all that? Well, yeah, well, I was, I was a witness of it. I had no development of it. I, I made my own dumb shit. Like I made my own compressor. I made my own limiter and just to play with the SDK because it was a, uh, SDK is a software development kit that some times companies, when they release new technology, if they're cool, they'll provide an SDK saying, hey, like,

• 44:48Speaker 06

  if you want to contribute or make your own things, here's the framework for it. This is all the, these are all the tools you need and libraries and includes that you need as a programmer to, to make this dynamic link library, which is what a plugin is, what was.

• 45:06Speaker 06

  Go nuts, but if you're gonna sell it, you know, you gotta license it and Yeah. That's where Steinberg made all the beaucoup bucks because they own it, you know, so you gotta, same with MP3. By the way, you know, like an MP3 is owned by a company from No kidding. Or whatever, or was at one point, you know what I mean? And like, cause it's an encoder, it's a, it's a patented uh, piece of software framework that's used to make, there, there are billions of encoders out there, but ultimately it's, an MP3 is kinda owned by someone, or the tech, the tech that made the MP3, not Yeah. The contents. So it's like that and it's, it's really cool. So anyway, this, this, this company out in Belgium

• 45:50Speaker 06

  uh, called, was called Fruity Loops back in the day. And a lot of people used it. So it was a small community of users and developers. So I could get in there, like I, I just go sign up on their forum, say, guys, and they're like, oh, who's this idiot? You know, like, whatever. No, here I'm doing this and this. And they're like, oh, that's an interesting way to use the software. And I'm like, yeah, they, here, here's some of my music. And they're like, okay, cool. And I'd be, you know, it'd just be back and forth about like feature requests, uh, feedback, if they added something, oh, can you change this? Cause this is like, we're all musicians and here I'm like cosplaying, like they might've thought that I was like a legitimate accredited musician who knew what he was talking about. But like, I'm learning at the same time, but if you learn some of the language, then you,

• 46:36Speaker 06

  you kind of pass that threshold. Well, wait, am I a musician now? You know what I mean? So I was really young too, and maybe they didn't know that, cause well, like sixteen, seventeen? Sixteen, seventeen years old. And there's some other guys on there that like, uh, oh, Mike Oldfield was on that forum. He's the guy that did Tubular Bells. So he was the big celebrity that, you know, used FL or Fruity Loops when it was called Fruity, it's called FL Studio now because they got sued by Kellogg's and they had to change the fucking name. It was hilarious. Yeah. But what are we gonna call it? I'm like, please call it something other than Fruity Loops or, or fruity, anything. Just like, stop toyifying this fucking software, you know? Yeah. Let's get serious, guy. Okay, we're gonna call it FL Studio. All right, whatever. Your company, you name it whatever you want.

• 47:21Speaker 06

  But, um. Uh, so, so it had some credibility because there were some hip hop dudes that were using it. Mike Oldfield was like the big celebrity dude using it. And then, you know, at the time, 16, who the fuck is Mike Oldfield? And then they'll play Tubular Bell. So I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, I remember that. You know what I mean? Oh, he's an OG, you know? So maybe they're on the right. You know what I mean? So I met a lot of people through that forum. Actually, I met my best friend through that forum, Steve Duda, who, uh, he worked for Avid, uh, or no, sorry, he worked for Pro Tools, which was, I don't know, sure, about the timeline here, but Pro Tools was Avid at one point, before Apple bottom, before

• 48:05Speaker 06

  the companies go through everything. But he, he was a Pro Tools developer, or sorry, um, uh, like he worked in the tech support kind of thing. So like, if someone was having a problem or something like that, Steve knew a lot about the Pro Tools platform and stuff like that. So he was like an audio DSP dog guy. And he would go look at all sorts of software, you know? So he was part of that community. And that's how I met Steve Duda. And we just became friends because he's weird, I'm weird. And we liked similar things and we weren't big fans of the, the, then just starting out EDM things. We were like, kind of anti EDM and doing like weird glitchy. No kidding? Broken.

• 48:50Speaker 06

  You guys were anti EDM? Well, yeah, actually. So, um, long story short, uh, so I ended up actually going to work for this company's, uh, in Belgium. So, uh, Jean-Marie and Frank Van Beeson flew me out to Belgium to go consult. Hold on. Let's, what caught their attention? My music. So they, so they really liked your stuff? Yeah. Cause it was just like, I had been making noise on a lot of other communities, like in terms of just my music, not the tech, nothing. I was just do some weird stuff under different names, like all the time. Dead Mouse wasn't even a verb. Um, or a noun or anything. Um, it was, uh, I was just like making noise on other forums

• 49:34Speaker 06

  and popular music communities of underground musicians and stuff. So, so somebody from the FL story goes, hey, I know that kid. He's the dude. You know what I mean? He did this thing. Oh, cool. Yeah, you know, and, and I had to obviously, I couldn't just like float off of me putting stuff out there and say, well, listen to this. I'm therefore qualified. No, I had to engage in the developers with, or sorry, with the developers and the other users and provide feedback and, uh, show them ways of, broken ways of using their stuff and how we could take this broken way and make it an official way, or design a new plugin for it, or, you know, change some things around the application. That's kind of like a beta, what a beta tester

• 50:16Speaker 06

  did, you know? So I was a beta tester. Steve was a beta tester. Um, you know, and some other people were just users and, and stuff like that. But again, like, we're talking less than like 50 people in a, in a kind of forum setting where we're all just, ah, let's do this. Let's add that. And it was a young, fresh company. So they're like, okay, cool. You know, that'd be like me walking into Tesla now going, oh, you guys should like maybe that. And they're like, that's not happening because it's got to go through this huge, big company thing. You know what I mean? So it's not very grassroots over there as it was at that time. So, so through that recognition and that involvement and that, uh, kind of like social injection of,

• 50:56Speaker 06

  you know, my, uh, ways of doing things. They were like, hey, well, why don't you come to Belgium and work?

• 51:04Shawn Ryan?

  How, I mean, how did that feel for you? Was that one of the?

• 51:06Speaker 06

  That was so bizarre.

• 51:07Shawn Ryan?

  Was that one of the first times that you really got recognition for some of the stuff that you were creating in a positive way?

• 51:15Speaker 06

  I, in, in an internationally positive way. Yeah. Like in the sense that there's this company in Europe that's interested in what I do and want to fly me out there and work for them for like a year or however long. And I was like, holy shit, that's fucking crazy. So like, I, I went and did that for like, Six, seven, actually, maybe a whole year. I can't, such a blur. And, you know, I lived with one of the developers, the owner of the company, put us up in a flat in, um, Ghent. Uh, and, uh, then on the off season, I would go to Canuck and stay at his like beach house, basically, and just, he would dump MIDI controllers, new peripherals, and hey, test this out. Hey, uh, we're making, uh,

• 51:58Speaker 06

  we're making all these new plugins. It's just so much easier if I'm like basically in the same room with the programmers and I can sit there and play with it and work with it and say, okay, let's tweak this a little bit and do this, this. And the company felt cool. They're like, holy shit, we actually have like a musician consulting with us and we're not just a bunch of programmers. Because sometimes you get like audio developers are really talented and make great applications, applications and filters and stuff like that, but really just don't know shit about music, you know, like nothing, like they're literally musically stupid as fuck. But they make this great technology and sometimes it helps when a musician is like, that is amazing what you're doing. But you know what I mean? Could we maybe do this a different way? And they're like, oh, why? And then you gotta walk them through it sometimes and they're like, oh, okay. Well, that's weird, but I'll do it anyway.

• 52:42Speaker 06

  And then, and then it's just better for everyone, you know, because not all musicians are programmers, not all programmers are musicians. So you need that kind of team thing. And that's now I see why that's why they had me up there to, you know, consult and be like a, a power user and, uh, help them push it in a direction they go. I have no involvement with them anymore, but, man, they went and did some big things. Now they're probably like the second or third biggest widely used digital audio software for hobbyists. And I've heard a lot of like big names putting out platinum albums with just their weird software. No kidding.

• 53:23Speaker 06

  This is weird to me because I don't use it. I'm not saying it's weird because it's inferior. It's, it's great. It's just different. Was Steve Duda with you on this? Yeah. So Steve was part of that forum, but he's also working for Avid. So Steve worked more on the hardware side. And then, um, then I got sick. In Belgium, like, pretty sick. Like, I'm, I don't mean like, like I got a disease and I had to get fucking weird shit. I, I just mean like, I got like a really bad flu. And, um, I was there like no visa, nothing like they, they, cause again, small company, right? They're like, I'm like, so. Smuggle them in. So what do I do? Uh, and they're like, uh, you're just coming to visit. Uh, and I'm like, uh, yeah, okay.

• 54:03Speaker 06

  But, but as a Canadian, we're part of the Commonwealth. I can go up there for up to six months on a tourist visa or whatever, but they don't, it's Belgium. Like, they're like, hmm. Yeah. You know, I'm not showing up with like a U-Haul. I just literally the clothes in my backpack and. Oh, we'll just get you whatever you need when you get here and, you know, I'm like, okay, cool, whatever. So I did that and I managed to evade it, but I got sick. And I needed to go to a hospital. Like I had to get taken care of. And they were like.

• 54:30Speaker 06

  Well. You're not exactly on our medical insurance. You know what I mean? So I'm like, you know what? Fuck. Just, I'll just fly home. I'm still within my visa thing. I'm not, it's. You know, it's been real, but I, I like the rest I gotta do from home. Cause I, I gotta go back to my, uh, socialized medicine kind of fucking. Place. So I get my shit taken care of for free. Okay. And they were like, okay, cool. So I flew home and then, uh, and they're like, uh, just let us know when you're better and then just come back. Right? And I was like, okay, cool. So like, whatever. I got that like stomped in like two weeks. It was just a gnarly flu or something. I'm like, okay, I'm good. And then I went to go back. And I got nicked. So they were like, wait, no, before I left, right? Because I guess they check ahead.

• 55:12Speaker 06

  Or something, you know, when you buy your ticket or so. I don't know how that worked, but like a basic code they get to, were you just in Belgium? I was like, yeah. And they were like, how long were you there? And I was like, like. Five months, you know, kind of thing. They're like, or whatever. And then it says, well, it says here, cause they, they saw my return ticket or whatever. And they were like. No, dude, now you have to apply for another, you have to apply for an actual visa because you've extended your fucking thing and you can't just go home for like a week and go right back. It doesn't. Reset. You know what I mean? It's, I don't know what the drama was, but basically I was denied entry before I went, thank God. Cause otherwise I would've went and they would've denied me there. And then I went and had to fly all the way fucking back. And.

• 55:50Speaker 06

  And I was like, well, okay. Well, that was fun. Uh, now it's time to figure out, you know, whatever, because they're not going to pay me like a salary or cash or whatever. Cause this is basically what it was. I. I gave JMC like my banking information and SWIFT codes and he would wire the money. Basically to my account, my checkings and savings account in Canada. So I had to use my debit card to eat and do shit out there, right? So it's like totally off the books. I'm like, okay, well, that was a fun little fucking thing. No harm, no foul. It's not like I wasn't doing anything crazy. So Is that the company that uh sent you out to your friend Tommy Lee's? No, no. See this and now this is where it gets funny, right? So I that's now I'm like,

• 56:33Speaker 06

  fuck man, I don't have a job, right? I'm a horn and I like, I know how to make music better than ever. You know what I mean? So I'm still like experimenting with shit. I had a, I had my MySpace was going crazy. Like, you know, cause remember that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So like that was the dawn of MySpace. I would put my music up there and stuff like that. And people like, oh neat. You know what I mean? And I worked with another band um in LA called Orgy. Oh, no shit. Yeah, Jay Gordon and Lou Gordon and all those. Dude, I got the best fucking orgy story for you. Let's hear it. So, and this actually fits because uh I, I, I worked with them kinda like Are we talking about the band orgy or an actual orgy? No, I'm just kidding.

• 57:17Speaker 06

  So, um, I don't know how this even happened, but for whatever reason, Jay Gordon, who's the singer at the time, or still is or whatever, um, hit me up and he's just like, I heard your, the stuff on the MySpace thing and you know my friend Steve Duda? And I'm like, yeah, I know Steve. And then he's like, yeah, cool. So, so he knew I checked out. Cause Steve is like, you know, pretty high up in the Pro Tools world as a tech and stuff like that. And he's like, yo, you wanna remix one of our songs? And I'm like, holy shit, this huge fucking band from LA, right? Wants me to remix their song. Neat. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. I'm doing it. Right? So I did that for him. And, and

• 58:01Speaker 06

  then um, there was another guy from the same band who had a side project called Julian K, which is one of the guitarist. No, that's Amir. Well, anyway, one of the other dudes um from Orgy had a side project. He had me remix his stuff and they really liked the remixes. They were like, wow, that's cool. It was all very industrial as Orgy, you know, kinda was off their massive hit, Blue Monday. Uh, which, you know, their cover. Hey, I love that song. It was cool. Which one? So, um, uh, so Lou Gordon is Jay Gordon's dad. He managed the band, right? Lou's like, we're gonna get you to the States. You're gonna come work for us. And I was like, really? Okay, that's interesting, Lou.

• 58:46Speaker 06

  Um, you're gonna, you're gonna take it. Cause I had just been through a very traumatic fucking immigration experience with fucking Belgium. So I do know for a fact, you have to give me a fucking visa. All right, like, like, whatever. You want me? Give me a fucking visa. I don't even pay me dog shit. Like, I'll work, whatever, but just get me that fucking visa. Don't come to the fucking States. He's like, okay, cool. So this is the, this is the most fucked up story. So, so Lou sends me this email, right? Lou's a big fucking manager, right? It's so funny looking back at it now, but like, he kinda did instill a little bit of management terror into me because he's just this big, powerful fucking dickweed. So he, he's like, okay, I got, oh, here's what you do. I gotta email you this letter and you're gonna show that to the customs and der, der, der.

• 59:30Speaker 06

  And I'm like, okay, Lou, I'm not, I don't think that's right. But you know what, like, and so I'm like, reading this letter. It's literally like a half pager. I, Lou Gordon. I'm like, so it's, it's, it's an employment, like agreement thing, basically is what he wrote. I wish I still had it. Now, maybe I can find it, but it's just, yeah, I know you're laughing already, right? Wait, wait till I get to the border, right? So I'm like, he's like, no, we do this all the time, bruh, bruh, bruh. And I'm like, okay, fine, fuck. So I like pack a little fucking bag and I bring this letter thinking like, there's just no way. This is like legit, right? So I'm like, hey, uh, I have a letter from an employer. Like, like on it, and you know, you know how US customs get, you know?

• 1:00:14Speaker 06

  It's like, they don't have time for your fucking shit. They don't fucking care. You know what I mean? They're just like, they hate you. So I'm like, look, I don't wanna be a pain in the ass, but I have a letter from a thing. He asked me to speak with someone there, like, and they were actually kinda cool about it. And they're like, okay, you need to go, just have a seat. Cause someone will come and get you, right? And so like, this is the border in Niagara Falls, Canada. So it's no skin off my ass because I literally live like a 20 minute walk from the United States. So it's not like. I'm taking a huge risk here, right? So I just, I go to the border, the thing, I take a cab there, whatever, and then kind of they're like, well, the cab has to go because the cab is not coming into the fuck. Fuck the cab, I'll just get out and I'll figure it out after that. Like, okay, have a seat. So this guy comes over and he's like, all right, next thing, fucking come over and I go and I'm explaining to him. I'm like, look,

• 1:00:58Speaker 06

  this is what the guy told me. He said, here, I, I'm to show you this letter and whatever. And then I, I planned to go, you know, work there for like six months on their new album. So punk static paranoia and it, and then he's like, it's like, what do you want me to do with this? Like, what, what is this? And I'm like, I, I don't know. He said that like, I show you this and then you let me in. I don't, I don't like, I don't fucking know. Dude, he goes, you need to visa. You need an, like, he's telling you, you need either a H1B, an O1, you know what I mean? I'm like, okay, well, can you like, educate me here so I can go back to this guy and tell him how stupid he is like, cause he's like, hey, he's just kind of glazing me over. He goes, look,

• 1:01:38Speaker 06

  all right, I, I gotta, I'm gonna send you back. You gotta get yourself an immigration lawyer. He was cool about it, like, but it was so deceivingly cool. Cause what he ended up fucking doing, he's like, okay, so you have to go back to Canada. I'm like, yeah, okay. You know, no problem, whatever. Like I'll go do what I, that's what I figured. So, all right. Uh, he's like, okay. So now you need to sign this. And I'm like, what? Sign what? Why, why do I gotta sign that? I just, I literally just turn around. Let me go back to fucking Canada and walk across the fucking bridge. I don't give a shit. He's like, yeah, yeah. But you're withdrawing your, and he kept, he kept stressing on this. He goes, you're withdrawing your admission into the United States. I'm like, well, yeah, I guess technically, cause I'm not, I don't want to be, I want to go home and get an immigration lawyer. Like, I'm just trying to be like legit here.

• 1:02:23Speaker 06

  And he's like, okay, well then what you need to do is you need to sign this form. And I'm like, all right, you know, like, and I'm not like at mature Joel yet. So I'm like, sure. Can I, can I go now? And he's like, yeah. So yeah. And I was like, okay, cool. I leave, go home and I'm like, my mom's like, I thought we were going to fucking LA to go work. I'm like, no, man, like, it's disgusting. Call Lou up. I'm like, Lou, you're a fucking idiot. You gotta give me an immigration lawyer, like, because this is stupid, like. And he's like, okay, no, okay, well, let me get back to you. No, no, no. I'm like, all right, fine, fucking, okay. Square one again. I'm back in fucking Canada. I'm in Niagara Falls, fucking. Talking to Steve and telling him, he's like, bro, he goes, that's so fucked up. He should get you an immigration lawyer and all that.

• 1:03:06Speaker 06

  I'm like, I know, like, and I'm like, whatever, man, just let's keep fucking grinding away. And me and him were like, working on music and music software together. Couple of weeks go by, or actually a couple of months probably. And I remember, uh, Steve's like, hey, why don't you come by? Like, why don't you just come visit for like a week or something like that? At least come check it out before you make any fucking crazy decisions, like, you know? Because Steve's telling me this whole horror story about how he moved to fucking New Orleans with two garbage bags full of clothes. And I was like, eh, and I was like, yeah, but just like, you know, like, just come, come chill. Uh, because I've, I've never actually met him, but I've been working with him for like, you know, five, six years. Oh, really? On the internet, right? And I thought, yeah, I could use a fucking break.

• 1:03:46Speaker 06

  Because I've been to the States before, like, I would, I worked in like a programming language called, uh, action scripting. So one of the companies that I worked for, we won an award for a flash-based shopping cart thing. So they, they flew us out to San Francisco to the Flash Forward Awards. So like, I've been in and out, like, in that capacity, right? So it's not like a big deal. So I'm like, okay, cool. So I, I like literally just packed some clothes up in a fucking suitcase and, and went to the border. And they're like, hey, you know, like, they don't remember me. They were just like, you know, what are you doing? What's your purpose for travel? I'm like, oh, I'm just going to visit a friend in LA. And they're like, yeah? I'm like, yeah, yeah, like, who? And I'm like, oh, Steve Duda, you know?

• 1:04:27Speaker 06

  Uh, here's his address. And they're like, how do you know a guy a thousand miles away in California? And I'm like, the internet? You know, like, like, I don't know, like, I don't, I've never actually met him. So they're, they're doing their job, you know what I mean? So, and they're like, okay. Bureau back and they come back out and they're like, okay, you're gonna have to come with me. I'm like, what the fuck? And they go, yeah, no, you are banned from the States. You're going to work. And I'm like, I'm not going to work. I'm go, I'm and I really wasn't. I'm like, I'm going to fucking hang out with my friend Steve. I'm like, I I'm not working like he doesn't have a job for me or whatever. And they're like, no, you're going to work. I'm like, no, like, I don't know what to tell you, dude, you know, whatever. And they go,

• 1:05:12Speaker 06

  you apply, you applied, you were here, whatever. Cause they were, I guess they made a note of it or something, but they were like, so they thought that I was actually evading that whole like visa process to go and work for that. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. And of course it's all heading back to me. I'm like, dude, that is so unrelated. Like I'm just literally going for like a week to hang out with this guy and they, they did the whole Gestapo thing, you know, and it was fucking crazy. I was scared shitless. And they're like, they're thinking, oh no, you're going to jail tonight, you know, kind of shit, you know? And I'm like, fuck, man. I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, like seriously, like I am not going to work, but honestly, so, so then they legitimately banned me from the States for like seven years. No shit.

• 1:05:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, I swear to God. So I'm like, well, fuck, there goes the, there goes my fucking Hollywood dreams, right? And whatever.

• 1:06:03Speaker 06

  So for whatever thing, they let me go back and they say, you cannot enter the States or whatever. And if you do, you'll be arrested. And I'm like, okay, fuck. All right. Cool. I guess Canada it is. Go back home, tail between my legs. And again, my mom's like, I'm just like, dude, you have no idea. Like this is just absolutely fucking crazy. They, they think that I was trying to like, you know, smuggle myself in and na, na, na, na. And she's like, well, whatever. And I'm like, well, now I should get a lawyer. Well, but not really, cause I have no point to go there anyway. Now, cause I'm not going to Lou and I, I definitely don't want to get an immigration lawyer to fight a case for me to just go visit my buddy, right? So yeah, fuck. So I'm like totally defeated, right? And I'm like, well, fuck, you know, like fuck that up. I'm going to stay in Canada. Na, na, na, na.

• 1:06:48Speaker 06

  Couple of years go by and I'm still just like grinding away in the Dead Mouse thing, uh, hanging out in the scene in Toronto, doing all the nightclub stuff and then just kind of making my music and stuff and then still working with Jay Gordon, by the way, and this is where it comes full circle. Jay Gordon sent me a photo of him like wasted, like in his like underwear on a couch, you know, at some party thing and he's like, huh, huh, look at this photo, kind of thing, right? And I'm like, you're a fucking idiot. You know, cool. And, um, a hundred percent of that, like, just why, why would you, I don't care, you know, like, cool, dude. And, um, at that time, I was getting into 3D animation and rendering and all that stuff, too. So I had designed a

• 1:07:32Speaker 06

  shader model. This is such a long story, but like, I'll, I'll do my best to keep it short. I did a shader model. You know, the, you know, the Pixar lamp? You know, the teapot? Yeah. Okay, those are shader, like, model tests that they'll use to test shaders. Okay. Right? And every kind of animation studio has their own dumb thing, right? Like, uh,

• 1:07:54Speaker 06

  uh, ZBrush has like a kind of weird, or Blender has a monkey thing. You know what I mean? Everyone's, it's just the corporate gag, right? So in my, like, I'm gonna be a 3D artist now, mode, right? I'm like, I need a shader model. So I made this circle with two ears and fucking some balls for eyes and I cut out a mouthpiece and went, cool, that's, I'm gonna just use that to test all my shaders out, you know? And whatever it is, right? It wasn't even Dead Mouse. Like, it was just, it was the helmet, as you know it, but like, it just, I didn't think Dead Mouse or anything like that, right? I was just, that's, I'll just use that as my MDL for testing out shaders. So Jay sends me that photo and I was just getting into, um, it was kind of new at

• 1:08:39Speaker 06

  the time, uh, called HDRI, which is like high density or, uh, high density radiosity imaging, which is, uh, Remember back in some CG behind the scenes things, they would take pictures of mirror balls, like spheres? And they would take a whole bunch of pictures and you'd see them on sets, they're like mirror, like Christmas ornaments, kinda like, you know what I mean? Mirror finished balls. So what that, what that is, is if you took a picture of that mirror ball at different, um, F stops for the camera, right? You could create a, basically an HDR map of the lighting of that scene. So that if you were to build that scene in 3D space and you use that HDR image,

• 1:09:23Speaker 06

  that has like, uh, it's an EXR or whatever of different levels of light. Then when you put your 3D model in it, it would apply that light to the 3D model of the same room. So it looked like it belonged there versus it was composited, right? So I'm testing this stuff out with just like, I had a, like a Canon and I, I bought literally like a, a garden ornament, one of those mirror balls things. And it actually had like a bluish tint to it. So I had to, I had to color correct it in Photoshop or whatever. But I, I was like, I should make my own HDR. So I did that. And then I took the photo of Jay Gordon, like fucking laying down like an idiot. And I put the mouse head on him and I sent it to him. And I said, Jay, look at this.

• 1:10:08Speaker 06

  And he's like, oh, he goes, how did, cause it's like fucking magic to him. And cause it's new technology. He's like, how the fuck? And I'm, and I explained it to him. He goes, ah, that's cool. He goes, what is that? And I'm like, oh, it's just like my shader model. He goes, dude, if you ever perform line, you gotta wear, you gotta make that and wear it. Jay Gordon told me that. And I, I said, you're, you're a fucking loser, dude. I swear to God, he was the first, I'll give him credit. He was like, goes, you know what? If you ever, if you ever, uh, if you ever make it, you know, like you, you should wear that on stage. And like, yeah, no, that's stupid.

• 1:10:43Speaker 06

  And but but like I'm it never happened till like five, six, seven years later. But like honestly, it's it's been in my brain the whole fucking time, just never acted on it or whatever. And I started like I I first started using it as my logo as Dead Mouse when I registered all that shit. And I was like, fuck, maybe I should. So I go to No kidding. I go to this guy in Toronto who makes props for like film and television. Name is Warren Keeler and I I said, can you make this? And I gave him, of course, the CADs, the FBX of everything because I've modeled it in 3D. And he's like, yeah, gets a hamster ball, fucking does his thing and makes a really nice one. I fucking throw it on and like, fucking it, this is so stupid.

• 1:11:26Speaker 06

  So I uh, I played my first show in Halifax with that head on and everyone was like, what the fuck is this dude? It was pretty funny. What'd they say? What did what? That was kind of like.

• 1:11:39Speaker 06

  Cause it was like before Daft Punk was popular. So like it was, you know what I mean? It was kind of like around the same time, but they they were like more Europe than North America at that time. So everyone was just like, that's really weird. Yeah, man. And it Just like I was saying at the beginning. Breaking the mold. Yeah. Doing your own thing. Um, so yeah, and that's just kind of how that happened. But then a lot of like nowadays, everyone's like, yeah, he was like one of the first. No, Daft Punk was the first fuck you all. You know who the first fucking electronic music bands with a head was? Not Devo, that's a hat. I mean, a full head. Who? The Residents. The, I don't know him. Oh, wow. Yeah, look him up.

• 1:12:24Speaker 06

  I will. They were eyeballs. No shit. Giant eyeballs. And this is like in the eighties, something like that. And and Penn, Penn Jillette used to play with them. Uh, the Penn Teller. Yeah. Penn Jillette used to play with the Residents and stuff. They used to tour around and stuff like that. I did a whole interview with him and I'm like, dude, that is so wild. I had no idea. That, yeah, it's really cool.

• 1:12:50Shawn Ryan?

  How was it received when you, I mean, how big were the shows you were playing?

• 1:12:54Speaker 06

  Oh, no, like, like literally twice the size of this room.

• 1:12:57Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding, that small?

• 1:12:58Speaker 06

  Hundred people.

• 1:13:00Shawn Ryan?

  Did they like it?

• 1:13:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, they loved it. It was great. Um, because I had actually gotten big in Europe, in England before. I was big in Canada or were in America, which was really weird. Because we had a mega club in Toronto at the time called Government. And they, just like, again, fast forward, like, uh, you know, five years deep into my, what I would say started as Dead Mouse. I had a few hits out and then Faxing Berlin was such a big track and Pete Tong would play it in England. And then Government, of course, would say, oh, we booked Dead Mouse. And he's like, holy shit, Dead Mouse, all the way from England?

• 1:13:42Speaker 06

  Dude, I live like four blocks from that fucking venue. You know what I mean? And I'm, I'm going in there and the capacity of like some international fucking DJ just blew my fucking mind. You know what I mean? And I was like, wait, you're Canadian? Wait, you're from Toronto? Wait, you live right fucking there? And I'm like, yeah, dude. It was really weird because I had, um, I had played my music out. Um, again, this is all very condensed, but like, cause it's, it's, everyone's got a story, you know? And it's always, life stories are really long, but, um, I remember playing some of my music for Chris Lake, uh, who's a, who is now and has been a huge fucking DJ out in the UK. Um, and, uh,

• 1:14:28Speaker 06

  he would play it and then Pete Tong, of all fucking people, like, hear it and they're like, oh, what the fuck? You know, and Pete Tong starts playing it on his show and, uh, who's this? Dead Mouse. Color me intrigued. It's, it's not DJ so and so. It's not, um, Captain Awesome or, you know, it was just like, you know, when you hear that Dead Mouse for the first fucking time when it's, and I'm not saying it's commonplace, but I just mean, imagine fucking, it's, it's me explaining to the guy at Customs now, every time I go through the fucking states and they're like, okay, where are you going? I mean, I have my visa and everything's fucking cool, fuck, but I go through sometimes and they, it's like, you know, maybe an older gentleman and he'd be like, okay, what are you doing? Uh, going to Nashville. Oh, for what?

• 1:15:10Speaker 06

  Uh, I was just gonna go play some music and stuff. Oh, you, oh, you got an O1. Oh, cool. What band are you in? Dead mouse? And he's like, what the fuck?

• 1:15:23Speaker 06

  Or, you know, oh yeah, my grandkids are big fans, you know, like fuck. Damn. Yeah, it's crazy. So I guess I think that's what kind of caught Pete Tong. Well, that and the music maybe. But he was just like, what is this weird head thing and cool? You know, and then he reaches out and then kind of the rest just kind of steamrolls. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, not really, but. But, but no, it's, it's like you make your own luck. You kind of, you know what I mean? I say that, you know, there are people as and by far more talented than me that just literally are just waiting for their thing or, you know, or, or

• 1:16:05Speaker 06

  enjoy the solitude of their basement or, or whatever. But I say you, this is so luck. It is so fucking luck. This has absolutely so less to do with skill than in, in, uh, artistry and innovation. I mean, that of course helps it along the way. But, but what I always say is that if you want to make it, you know what I mean? Or, or be whatever it is you want to be, you gotta just make your luck better. You know, like add more tickets to the raffle every day. You know what I mean? And eventually, yeah, you're going to hit. You know what I mean?

• 1:16:48Speaker 06

  But if you're just throwing one ticket in and there's a hundred thousand tickets in there, you gotta be pretty fucking lucky and you very well may be, and that's cool too. But the more kind of tickets you throw in that pot, you know, the better. You know, so it's like you make noise here, you make noise there. You, you involve yourself in this kind of sector of all stuff you like, you know, shit you're interested in. And, and sooner or later, you know, those pieces are going to kind of like connect like neurons. You know what I mean? And then. Then you're then you're in two places at once, you know what I mean? And then at some point it's gonna converge and then someone's just gonna pick up on that. You know what I mean? And then that puts you in that position where you're like.

• 1:17:28Shawn Ryan?

  I totally understand what you're saying. I don't, I mean.

• 1:17:31Speaker 06

  I'm not saying meet a lot of people and cling to fucking people better than you. I just mean, apply yourself in like all these little fucking weird ass areas. And sooner or later, you know, someone's gonna pick up on that and say, hey, this guy's doing shit, you know?

• 1:17:44Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it's to you, maybe that's luck. To me, that's just. That's dedication. That's getting it out there. That's having the the courage to put something new out that nobody's ever heard and and and. And be willing to face the critics. And and you just kept going and going and going and going.

• 1:18:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:18:05Shawn Ryan?

  Whereas most people would just, oh, man, people don't like it.

• 1:18:08Speaker 06

  I tried it once and it it just wasn't for me. You know what I mean? Oh, dude, I tried it like eighty times and it wasn't for me. Until I tried it eighty-five times, then then it was for me.

• 1:18:20Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:21Speaker 06

  So.

• 1:18:21Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, all the way even all the way back when you said you were putting your stuff out, was it? It wasn't Reddit, but you were putting your stuff out in those forums. You know, just stuff that you had created.

• 1:18:31Speaker 06

  Dot com, Bandcamp, you know, all that dumb shit. And I'm and I'm sure there's like one or two of them that really wouldn't have made the fucking difference whether I put it there or not. You know what I mean?

• 1:18:40Shawn Ryan?

  Do you remember the first? The first, what would you call it, a track?

• 1:18:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:18:46Shawn Ryan?

  Do you remember the first track that you put out?

• 1:18:48Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, yeah. It was called, I don't want no other.

• 1:18:51Shawn Ryan?

  How was that received?

• 1:18:52Speaker 06

  It was it was me working with another guy. I used to work, Jesus Christ, I do. I skipped over like a lot of shit, but like, so I used to work in a record store. Um, and I was just like in the rear with the gear. Um, you know, like I'd hang out at the back and play on the computer and make noise. And they had turntables and DJ equipment back there because we also recorded a radio show for the plane. For their local radio station stuff, so a lot of DJs would come in and out. And that was my big intro into electronic music was working in that fucking record store because I met every fucking DJ. That came through and bought records, you know, and it was got a little friendly and cool and stuff like that and.

• 1:19:34Speaker 06

  Uh, I just got to it. I I became known as the the kid who knew how to use all the shit like the computer to do the recording, to edit and all that stuff. Of course, DJs knew how to DJ, but like I had to format it into a show and use the computer to do it, you know, so I would use like Sound Forge and Gold Wave and Wave Lab and all all these like archaic fucking editing suites to to produce a radio show, insert the commercials on. So I just became the nerd, you know, um, and and that was really proponent to like, um, hey, call Joel Hill, you know what I mean? Come to your studio and hook you up with this or that, or, you know?

• 1:20:15Shawn Ryan?

  When when you, when you put your first track out, what was, how was it received? Was it butcher it? Did they crush your soul? Did they like it?

• 1:20:25Speaker 06

  That was at a time like it was vinyl. There was no digital distribution happening anywhere. Um, it was vinyl. Uh, there was a guy in Toronto who knew the DJ that I worked with on that song. There was a DJ Dread, right? He's kind of like a thing in Niagara Falls, but then would also go to Toronto play sometimes too. And there was a guy, Awesome Awan, uh, who worked, uh, Popular Records, well, like a sub, like a sub-label of that called Awesome Records. And I, he's just like, yeah, I'll press it and give it to Eugene and Play D Record. He would sell it and stuff like that. So, um,

• 1:21:04Shawn Ryan?

  I'm talking, Joe, I'm talking early days.

• 1:21:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's pretty early.

• 1:21:07Shawn Ryan?

  Like, um, like Belgium. You'd said that the owner of that company had noticed that you were putting stuff out in like super early.

• 1:21:17Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. No, that was earlier than that. Me working in the record store was way before Belgium.

• 1:21:21Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 1:21:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's me. I was skipping school to go to the record store downtown Queen Street.

• 1:21:26Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:21:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. This was like, uh, my first year in high school.

• 1:21:30Shawn Ryan?

  So you you got, you got positive recognition right off the bat?

• 1:21:35Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, I guess. Not like, oh, man, he's the bomb. Just know he's a fucking nerd and he's fucking doing shit on a computer and that's as far as it goes. Not he's, hey, watch this space. Not that. Just. Did it sound like anything that you're doing today? Absolutely not. No, it was terrible. I can't listen to it. It just makes me, it makes me fucking cringe. But I'm sure that if you were to maybe guise it as something else and send it to someone, they'd be like. Was there any critics? Was there a lot of criticism? Always critics. Well, the reason I'm asking is I want to know how you got over it. Over? Over the criticism. Oh, I never got into it. Really? No kidding? No. You just didn't give it any time?

• 1:22:18Speaker 06

  You don't have time for that. Man, it's like those who can't, you know, I just shouldn't.

• 1:22:24Speaker 06

  That's it. Like, yeah, I mean, dude, I get it all the time. I get it today. I got it last week. But, but, but it kind of, it's, it's like, to me, it's, it's, it's empty because there's no substance to the criticism. Okay, so like, your set sucked. I, I'm sorry, like, I, that just is literally not doing anything for me. It's not even hurting my feelings because, A, you failed to quantify it. It sucked how? You want to hurt my feelings? Fucking do it, bitch. You know, like, tell me what it was. And then when you really egg them on, and I remember, okay, all right, how did it suck? Well, okay, you, you gotta, did I play a song you didn't like? You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't understand. Was the,

• 1:23:10Speaker 06

  was the audio bad? Did you have a bad time with your girlfriend? Like, I don't understand. Like, there's so many things in the universe that could make that suck for you and you alone, you know what I mean? But there's 50,000 of you out there and I don't really give a shit about your bad fucking time. I don't give a shit about hearing about your bad time. You know what I mean? Like, fuck, man, you gotta be kidding me. And then on the internet, you multiply that by a billion, right? Eh, it's okay. Or like, whatever. You know what I mean? Like, or like, critics, critics, critics. You know what I mean? It's just like. I just, I am so unaffected by criticism. I think, and that's a really nice thing to develop.

• 1:23:51Speaker 06

  Did you develop it, or did that just come natural? Uh, I, I, I think naturally, just like I've always been really not really part of any need to fit into anything. You know what I mean? Like a group, uh, that, and that showed really early, I think for me in high school, because you had your goths and your jocks and your, your nerds. And, you know, I didn't really vibe with any of that. I would just go bum smokes from all of them. You know what I mean? And, and just, I'd be there. Not saying I was bullied and I was an outcast and I cried in my locker every day. You know what I mean? I knew how to socially function. You know what I mean? You just kinda, you gotta get a bit of this and a bit of that sometimes.

• 1:24:31Speaker 06

  And flack from peers or people that are like, you know, occupying the same space as you at that age. You know what I mean? Because I think everybody's still really bent on fitting in. And, and fitting in with that group, that's most likely to succeed at being the fucking coolest, which is pretty petty, but like that's high school in a nutshell. You know what I mean? Um, I just didn't, I just kinda, I played fucking all sides of the war. You know what I mean? Like I fucking. Smart man. Yeah. Smart man.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is.

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 1:25:18Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:25:20Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped going? You're stalled, you're freezing there. That's what.

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:25:28Speaker 04

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:25:48Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is.

• 1:25:49Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 1:25:53Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:25:55Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped going? You're stalled, you're freezing there. That's what.

• 1:25:59Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:26:02Speaker 04

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:26:04Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:26:13Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Joel, we're back from the break. We're getting ready to dive into you meeting Tommy Lee for the first time.

• 1:26:21Speaker 06

  Guy. Um, so Steve Duda, who's basically been there from the start. Um, you should get him on the show. The guy's, he's crazy. Mad genius. Really quiet hippie dude, long blonde hair, just...

• 1:26:35Shawn Ryan?

  I'd love to get him.

• 1:26:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, he's awesome. Um, so, so me and Steve, uh, you know, having, we met through that company in Belgium and we were just like back and forth banner, uh, some tech stuff in between and stuff. At some point, um, before the Dead Mouse stuff, I was like, we should just, we should just start a band and, and do some, you know, the industrial stuff that we like. This isn't even dance music. And, um, many years go by, uh, and then of course I was, uh, I was barred from the United States. Um, Steve's like, I'll just fly up there. And I was like, oh, okay, perfect. Okay. And then we can hang out. We can just do whatever, right? And he's like, yeah, cool. So

• 1:27:19Speaker 06

  we came, showed up and I was living in a basement apartment in Toronto at that time. And, uh, I was like, well, like, what do you want to do? Like, what, what kind of music should we do? It's like, is like, how do you start a band? You know, basically, it's like you, I guess you all have to agree on some kind of like, style or something. I don't know. I don't know the formula. I don't know how bands form. You know what I mean? But you, don't you think like they all sit down and go, okay, we're gonna sound like this. You know what I mean? Cause you can't have like four different, can't have a, like, uh, well, maybe you can, but you can't have like a country folk dude and then a black metal guy and then, you know, and then there's, they're like, well, how are we gonna make this all fit? So sort of thing. So, um, I, I think we were both into that kind

• 1:28:04Speaker 06

  of early industrial kind of sound, like the Nice Nailsy kind of stuff. So we, we did that for about 20 minutes, you know, but then we realized we were doing our jobs. Like, and then that sucked because that's what Steve did, you know, for other bands and stuff like, he, he worked with Nice Nails. He, uh, worked on, uh, The Fragile, uh, with them in New Orleans and, uh, he was an engineer and he played some violin on the album and stuff like that. So he, I think, I think we both just realized, wow, we're doing shit like we do for other people. And this kind of, it's not really fun or creative. And we're like, yeah.

• 1:28:38Speaker 06

  So we just, you know, kind of collectively sighed. And then for whatever reason, I said, we should do dance music. And then it was like, you know what I mean? Like a joke, literally a joke. And I was taking the piss. And then, then, then, then Steve got thinking like, he's like, well, it's so fucking formulaic. Like, and I'm like, I know, right? And, you know, so we're like, I don't know. It's like admitting you're gonna do something, but detesting it at the same time. Because like, honestly, it's like, as far as me and Steve were concerned, like, and dance music was kind of like the ass end of the joke of, you know, the pinnacle of where we were at with technology and music and stuff like that. Why dumb it down to a four, four, 128 BPM fucking thing with some boom, boom, boom, the same bassline over and over again.

• 1:29:22Speaker 06

  We're like, puff, you know, like, we're better than that. Let's do it anyway, right? Just as a joke, right? So, so we did, we, we, and this is no exaggeration. We produced eight tracks in eight days. Dance tracks, very palatable, pretty, what we thought that'll do pig, you know, there's some dance music. And I had befriended some people in the technology department out in Denver, who started up a website that was brand new at the time called Beatport. And they were an early digital distro, but more oriented for DJs. So that DJs would have a place to go and buy digital music and serve it out.

• 1:30:06Speaker 06

  And they were kind of the kings at that time, the up and comers. Because digitally, like, there was no Apple Music. It wasn't even invented or whatever, you know? There was no real place, like DJs would go to record stores and, you know, get holds from the record shop owner. If they're like a DJ and have reservations and stuff like that. So getting music, Beatport made it more accessible because they, they were one of the first and probably the most renowned kind of source for where the digital DJ would get their music, right? Okay. I ended up just like making up a record label. Out of fucking thin air and sending it to Tom Havens, who was working at Beatboard at the

• 1:30:47Speaker 06

  time and said, how do we release this? And he was like, oh, just do this, duh, duh, duh. It's some IRC codes and na, na, na. It's pretty easy to do. And I was like, okay, do I need to like sign anything? He's like, no, just fucking send it. Whatever. It's good. And we'll do the accounting on it and all that stuff. I'm like, okay. And I shit you not, the BSOD tracks, which was our moniker, were on the charts as number one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, out of the top 10. Are you serious? I shit you not. It was the weirdest fucking thing. And we're like, why is this working? And we're kind of laughing, right? Because we had no intention of doing this, right? Because we, we, we actually kind of ironically took the piss out of electronic music with a

• 1:31:30Speaker 06

  title track called This Is The Hook, right? And it's, it's this text to speech stuff describing about how the track should go because it was so formulaic. So it was like, it was like this computer voice that just basically said, okay, so first, we're gonna, we're gonna add, you know, 16 bars of just a kick drum. So the DJ can mix it in, right? No, okay. So predictable. Okay. Now, now comes in the bassline. No, no. And then a bassline comes in and then, and then it's like, now here's the breakdown. It syncopates, you know, the rhythm. And it's like this text to speech shit. That's just describing how, how formulaic it is, right? And then that was, it was called This Is The Hook, because then the hook was called This Is The Hook. And it was like this guy saying, this is the hook. You know, this is the hook. And then, and then we were like,

• 1:32:14Speaker 06

  dude, this is the stupidest thing ever. And it was actually like number one on Beatboard for like a hot minute. And we're like, holy shit. This is funny. And then we started to see like, our income come in from that. And we're like, we could just do dance music, dude. Like, like, I know it's like, kind of above our pay grade, but like, let's just- You gotta be shit me. So you weren't even really into dance music? Still kinda not.

• 1:32:39Speaker 06

  But that's another story. Um, so it was a joke. Cause we want to do this like industrial Aphex Twin-y. Aphex Twin is this like avant garde stuff. Uh, square pusher-esque nine inch nails kinda medley thing. You know, like just we wanted to, we had such hot grand visions of, of being the next not inch nails or whatever, you know what I mean? Cause we were just so, so big, huge fans of Trent Maticus and that whole camp, which he all knew, you know what I mean? So it's like, I'm like, well, what better candidates would there be to create the next thing? It would be me and Steve, you know, do this. Uh, but, and then instead we make like a joke eight track dance album and it just fucking blows up.

• 1:33:22Speaker 06

  And then there's this huge DJ like Benny Benassi's, you know, that satisfaction song. Benny's like, he, me and Steve, we printed our own T-shirts. This is how like fucking chop shop this is. When we go to winter music conference, right? Like in Miami, just it's like, on a spectator level, you know what I mean? Like we're not going for meetings. We're not going for, you know, like, uh, appointments or to sign autographs or fucking play any shows. We had no shows. We had one show just because of Steve's friend, uh, Jonathan Peters, who was playing at Space and we got a slot from like four in the morning to four 30, you know, or something like that. Right? So we went in that capacity, right? Is this Ultra, is this Ultra Music Festival? Yeah.

• 1:34:06Speaker 06

  When Winter Music Conference was at the same time. So it's, they, they used to always time those two events together because like shit, half the industry's there, half the DJs are there. Let's just make it a conference thing too, and give out some bullshit awards and talks and conferences and, but really it's just for like, you know, the dance music guys, agents and labels and DJs just go fucking party for like a week, then play a festival, get paid. Everybody fucking cool. Who doesn't love Miami, right? Um, so we decided to go to this thing and this is like at the peak of WMC when it was like a really cool thing. So like the rally would be booked and Pete Tong would have the rally and the national was booked and some Ajuana would have that and all the labels, all the big swing

• 1:34:48Speaker 06

  index, Toolroom Records and Ultra Music and the label and all that stuff. So we go to this conference and we're wearing our printed BSOD shirts, right? And walking down, I remember Colin Street or, or no, when we were at the national, just like having lunch because we just managed to just blag our way into getting some passes to go into this like, you know, kind of private party thing. So we're sitting around at the table and Benny Benassi walks by and he's like freaking out and like me and Steve and we're like, I was like, this, that's Benny Benassi. And I was like, he's like, oh, cool. Like, we're not freaking out, but I was just like, that's really weird. And Benny's like, oh, you, you guys are BSOD, BSOD. And I was like, yeah, he's, oh, I love, uh, this is the hook. And he's a nice, this

• 1:35:31Speaker 06

  wonderful Italian dude, you know, we're like, holy shit, this is a satisfaction guy, right? We're like, awesome, cool, man. He's like, yeah, no, no, I really, really liked the song. And, you know, Benny Benassi's playing our shit. And we're like, dude, this is so fucked up. Like, we fucked up because now we're a thing and, oh, shit, you know, like, okay, cool. They're like, hey, man, yeah, cool. So we gave him some stuff and he's like, yeah, you know, whenever you guys do music, you know, send it. We're like, okay, yeah, sure, no problem. And then Chris Lake was, you know, a friend of ours too. And Chris Lake loved our stuff and in hand, you know, Pete Tong kind of caught on to it again too and all that stuff. And so it's like, we're like, what the fuck did we just do? Whoops. And

• 1:36:11Speaker 06

  this is getting into the whole Tommy thing. Um, so then BSOD is just kind of up and coming and stuff like that. But then we just kind of decided, Steve was just like, I don't want to be a superstar. I don't want to be a DJ. He doesn't. He's, he's, he really, honestly, truly doesn't. Like, it's, it's just, he loves technology, loves programming. I don't necessarily want to be a big superstar. I love it too, but like, I like making music and stuff like that. Steve loves making tools that make music. He likes solving those kind of problems. I like solving creative problems. And ultimately, we just kind of just stopped with the BSOD stuff for like a hot minute, you know, and just like, and Steve is like, oh, I'm working on this new synth thing. Give me like 20 years and maybe I'll finish it, you know?

• 1:36:57Speaker 06

  And but we we still remain best of friends. It wasn't a breakup. It was just like, ah, that was cool. We made some money and we know it works, you know. Okay, game on. Let's go do something else. And that's kind of when I forted off and and did Dead Mouse because I'm not just going to be bored while Steve's like fucking off being Steve. You know what I mean? I gotta keep it moving, you know. So, you know, all good. All is well that ends well. So that's when I started Dead Mouse stuff after that. And then he was like, oh, it's the guy for BSODs, the guy that did Faxing Berlin, and then the same dude. Okay, cool. Let's put a mouse head on him and throw him on every fucking festival. Fine. Um, then Steve was

• 1:37:35Speaker 06

  gone to LA on business through, because he still worked for Avid. He was an operator for a Pro Tools system that Tommy Lee bought that has no idea how to fucking use it, like himself. He has a studio at his home and he's got an engineer. He has like Scott Humphrey and Chris Basford, you know, running the shit. Tommy just knows how to, you know, and that's about it. Um, well, no, I'll give more credit than that. But, um, so Steve went over to Tommy's to do some op stuff, either upgrade a PT system or troubleshoot some bullshit with Scott and Chris and all that stuff. And Steve, it's not, he's not there and Tommy's

• 1:38:18Speaker 06

  not an asshole. So it's like anyone that kind of goes into his space or his home, like you, you, you're a bro, dude. You know, like, it's not.

• 1:38:27Speaker 06

  You know, just get to work. Don't look at me. Just do what you need to do. Now, and they got chummy, right? So they got talking music. And then Steve's like, oh, have you heard this Dead Mouse dude? And Tommy's like, no, right? And he would play him some of my weird shit, not my dance music. He would play him the the stuff I did, like, you know, the B-roll shit, you know, that nobody really hears that I just kind of do for fun. And I give it out to friends and stuff like that. And then, for whatever reason, Tommy emails me. He's like, yo, your boy dude gave me some of your shit. It's fucking whack and I love it. And I'm like, okay, cool. Like, Thanks, that's neat. You know, if you want more, I can send you more. I don't know what you would do with it, but whatever, cool. Like, I, I just didn't see the connection, you know what I mean? But I was like, I was, it was still pretty cool. Like, he sends me this email and I was like, yeah, your boy Steve.

• 1:39:12Speaker 06

  And then, uh, I'm like, rad, cool. So like, every month or so, when I finish something cool, I'd send it off to him and get some feedback. And then the feedback would turn into like, like, just dumb jokes or like, just hey, stupid chain emails of some meme, you know what I mean? I'm like, okay, cool. And then I get another email from him and I'm living in the, um, I couldn't go to the States. I was banned. Still. Henceforth, yeah. Um, so I'm in, uh, Niagara Falls, back at my mom's house, debating on moving to Toronto or not. And I get this email from Tommy. He's like, yo, I'm playing in Hamilton. You wanna come? And I'm like, yeah, threaten me with a good fucking time. Of course I'll come.

• 1:39:52Speaker 06

  So, uh, Hamilton's like, you know, 30 minute drive from Niagara Falls. So it's just like our local thing. He's doing some Motley Crue shit. So, um, he's like, uh, yeah, you know, here's, here's Tony's number, email, just go and send him, he'll put you on the will call and whatever. And get you whatever, something. I'm like, cool. Yeah. Well, I mean, fuck it. I'll go. I've never been to a concert. I'll go happily sit in GA or whatever ticket you fucking got me and I'll fucking chill. So I get there and I message the Tony guy on my fucking Fido. And, uh, he's like, uh, oh yeah, come to gate, da, da, da, da. I'm like, fucking Christ. So I'm like trying to like navigate my way around this whole like idea of being at a venue, which I've never been.

• 1:40:35Speaker 06

  And, uh, and then anyway, this fucking BT bleach tip douchebag looking dude fucking finds me and he's like, hey, you Joel, right? And I was like, yeah. He was like, oh, Tony. I'm like, oh, hey, man. Nice to meet you. He's like, yeah, come on, come on. So he walks me in through the loading bay and just takes me into like one of the locker rooms. And it's like just draped with like fucking hippie sheets and it just reeks of nogchampa. That's why I discovered that shit, by the way. Um, the incense, right? And fucking Tommy's just sitting there and I was like, oh, hey. He's like, oh, dude, do, do, do. And he's like the nicest guy. Like, he, he's that kind of dude that'll like, you know, like if a friend brings a friend to like a dinner event, because he's a good friend of theirs. Like, he makes everybody feel Yeah. Welcome. You know what I mean?

• 1:41:19Speaker 06

  He doesn't just kind of have you around as a prop. You know what I mean? He'll be like. You know what I mean? He's a really, really cool dude. I'm really envious of that because I can't be like that. Like as on as he is when it comes to social awareness. Yeah. I even though he's not aware he's doing that. He's just. He's just got some weird thing with his brain, I guess. I don't know, but he's a really, really cool dude. And I was like, oh, hey, hey, nice to meet you, man. He's like, yeah, right, dude, fucking, you want a beer? No, no, no, I was like, yeah, cool. So I was like sitting around drinking and the funny thing was is that my first interaction with the guy really was. So he's like, um, it was a locker room, right? But they just draped over the, the pissers, basically, right? With some bullshit just to make it look a little homely or whatever.

• 1:42:04Speaker 06

  And he's got, he's got this sound system that has gotten Figgy pushed in there for him so that he can like, you know, kind of party before the show, which I thought was absurd. And, um, he's, he had these contest winners, uh, like kind of shuffled into the room and they're losing their fucking minds. I'm just kind of just like witnessing at this point. I'm not like shivering in a corner. I'm just like, this is so bizarre, man. Like, what am I doing here? How did this happen? You know? And, um, while I'm in that thought, this is, you know, a younger girl came in, like, I mean, like 15, 14 maybe. And her, I would assume mother, right? I'd like kind of come in.

• 1:42:43Speaker 06

  So I'm like, oh, maybe she won a contest thing and she had to come with her mom because fucking, you know, that's whatever. So they're all sitting around and the mom is just kind of like, like, kind of like me. We're just like, what the fuck is going on in here? You know what I mean? Tommy's just like partying. He's like, be killer. And, um, so I'm sitting down and there's this like little table here. I'll never fucking forget this. And, uh, he just kept putting beers in front of me like Corona. So I'm like drinking a beer and he's, he's sitting beside me. He stands up and sort of watches. He takes the empty bottle, stands up and just whips it across the fucking room, hits the wall. It fucking explodes. And I was like.

• 1:43:25Speaker 06

  Like, oh my god, that's funny, but why, why, why would you do that? You know, and the, and the fourteen year old girl is just like, like laughing her ass off. The mom's terrified, glasses flying fucking everywhere. And he, and he starts handing me, and he's like, do it, do it, do it. And I was like, bro, like, come on, man. That was like, literally my very first rock and roll moment. And then he's like, just, just fucking whip it, man. And so we're like whipping these empty Corona bottles down the fucking hall. I'm thinking like, see, like anyone else, me especially, like in any other circumstances, I'd get arrested for this shit. You know what I mean? I, or, or at the very least yelled at, you know, or something like that. But I was like, like, why do you, why is this fun? Hey, I mean, it felt great to do it. But I was like, this is so juvenile. This is so stupid.

• 1:44:08Speaker 06

  Like, I thought you were like, an adult, you know? And, and I think legally you are, but why are we acting like children? I don't know, it's a good time. And, um, there's actually a really fucking, I got a photo from that night. You, I, I just have to show you this and get your reaction. This is the weirdest fucking photo. Um, because it's like, uh, come on, we'll take a selfie. And I had like one of those shitty phones. Um.

• 1:44:34Speaker 06

  It's very Google-able. Uh, it's, where's the, this is, yeah, this is the first pic. So this was that night. So this is in that dressing room. And I think I'm like eighteen years old.

• 1:44:46Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 1:44:47Speaker 06

  It's so weird.

• 1:44:50Shawn Ryan?

  I gotta get that.

• 1:44:51Speaker 06

  I, yeah, yeah, yeah, just literally Google it. Um, oh, and this is, uh, this is, uh, Steve Do. That's when we started our band thing.

• 1:45:00Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, right on.

• 1:45:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, he's a cool dude.

• 1:45:04Shawn Ryan?

  We'll put that up.

• 1:45:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:45:06Shawn Ryan?

  That's cool, man.

• 1:45:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I'm out there like just hanging out with this fucking rock star thinking, you know, like, okay, but they, you know what? It's cool, it's an experience, cool. And I, and I watched the show, I enjoyed it, and then, um. And then he's like, uh, well, what are you doing this week? And I'm like, what do you mean? What am I doing this week? Like, I'm going back to my fucking normal ass fucking life and figuring out more music shit, you know, it's like, well, we, you should come, come to Montreal. So he's like, I'm like, well, I, I don't drive. First of all, I had to get dropped off here and I, I gotta fucking, I don't know, I gotta figure out actually how I'm getting home. Actually, you know what? As a matter of fact, I think I had to borrow 50 bucks from, I had to ask him, I, I did, I said, dude, I don't wanna be that guy, but can I borrow 50 bucks so I can get the fucking go train back to Niagara Falls?

• 1:45:50Speaker 06

  Cause it's like 45 minutes away. It's gonna be like hundreds of dollars for a cab, but I can wait till morning and then get on the go train and go back. And he's like, yeah, sure dude, but why, why don't you come to Montreal? I'm like, well, cause I, I can't afford a flight to Montreal if I can't afford a fucking train ride home. He's like, oh, just fucking come on the bus, fucking idiot. And I was like, alright. So I got on the bus with him, his tour bus, and then we drove up there and of course it was all night just chatting about dumb shit. Nothing music, nothing, no business, no, no nothing. And I was like, okay, the guy's actually kinda fun to hang out with. He's like a fucking kid. He's a really cool dude. So I ended up like staying with him for like a week.

• 1:46:31Speaker 06

  So we do Montreal, do Quebec, well, Canada. And he's like, okay, I gotta go back to the States later dude. And I'm like, okay, drop me off. And actually funniest story, my mother was like, this, I, I, so I lived off the highway. Pretty much like, so once the highway kinda ends, you go left or right or straight, right? Straight goes into like a tiny suburb, left or right goes down this mean street called Montreal's Road in Niagara Falls. And, um, we lived in like a little bungalow thing in that subdivision. So Tommy had to come back through Niagara Falls to go over to the US border to go to Buffalo, right? I was like, dude, perfect. Can you drop me off? Like just literally, like just at, uh, just exit the highway, fucking,

• 1:47:12Speaker 06

  and then just drop me off and I'm good. And he's like, oh yeah, easy. Cause we gotta take the Q E W to go to the fucking Rainbow Bridge. Anyway, I'm like, oh, this works out perfectly. Thank you. So, um, I stayed on tour. We went to a few shows and, um, uh, he drops me off and my fucking mom sees this Motley Crue tour bus fucking pull up literally out front of the fucking house. Because right off the fucking highway, okay, later dude. Okay, bye. Getting in the house and I was like,

• 1:47:40Speaker 06

  What the fuck? You know what I mean? I'm like, yeah, I just, it's so weird. Cause my mom obviously knows who Tommy Lee is. She's like, you were just with Tommy? And I was like, yeah. I don't know, like showing her the picture. And I was like, yeah, we did whatever. Cause he knows Steve. And then she was like, that is just, alright, okay.

• 1:47:59Speaker 06

  Get a job now.

• 1:48:03Speaker 06

  It was just the most bizarre thing. And of course, we stayed in touch and we collaborated together. Me, Tommy Lee, Steve Duda and our other mutual friend DJ Arrow, who works with Tommy the most. Like when Tommy does the DJ show stuff in Chester. His name is, but we call him Arrow.

• 1:48:23Speaker 06

  All started a group called WTF. We produced some tracks together. So WTF is me, Tommy Lee, Steve Duda and Arrow. And we did some electro and stuff like that. Put that out, it did okay. And I still rock it from time to time. It's pretty fun. So every like few years, we get together and fucking all go play a show together. And some quiet thing or something just for funsies. But other than that, it's like mostly hangs. Do you guys still do that? Shows? Yeah. Uh, we, we almost did, uh, like,

• 1:48:57Speaker 06

  where, where Ireland? Yeah, we almost did a show in Ireland because we had a Motley Tour was like intersecting with the Mouse Tour. Bro, we hung out, but I was like, we should do a show. But we, we, we would have to fly Arrow up. But Arrow had fucking tore his ankle up like real bad. Like he had to get surgery and pins and shit. And walking up some stairs, something lame. And he couldn't make a flight. And we're like, yeah, alright. So we just ended up hanging out and went to the show. But man, I love that dude though. He's such a good point of reference for me because, uh, I mean.

• 1:49:34Speaker 06

  In in my space, particularly EDM, there's just so much like main character shit. That I cannot fucking stand. It's like, I I go to shows. And I'm in and out, like I'll I'll literally show up five minutes before I have to go do the thing and then walk off, get in the car and just get the fuck out. Um, generally, I I From when I started, I've noticed and probably still very prevalent, there's always like this like compound. That goes on for hours before an artist will go on. So there's like groups and it's. Party this, party that, or not party, or just, you know what I mean? Little cliques of

• 1:50:17Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:18Speaker 06

  Other artists and

• 1:50:19Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I don't, I don't.

• 1:50:20Speaker 06

  The headliner and why, why am I not playing the main stage? It's just like, shut up. So I don't, I don't deal with that. And neither just really Tommy, just kind of zens out, does his fucking thing and gets on, gets off and You know what I mean? And he just like, he's so blissfully.

• 1:50:39Speaker 06

  Happy. I guess, you know what I mean? So these like really. He's the only guy that I think I can talk to about a lot of problems that I have with my mental health and touring and stuff like that, who gets it? You know what I mean? I could have the best psychotherapist in the fucking world and and and I I've had to gone, I've done some therapy sessions here and there with like some Big swinging dick, MD fucking pro brain pickers, but I don't think they ever really get it.

• 1:51:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:08Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Like they go, I can, I can see that. I can sort of understand it, but this dude's fucking lived it. You know what I mean? So he gets it. So I I he doesn't need to have a fucking PhD to tell me. Yeah, that's annoying, you know, or like, that's cool. You know, he's like, he's been through it. He's done with it and and I, he needs nothing from me. You know what I mean? Like, and I need nothing from him. So it's, there's no parasitic shit between the two of us.

• 1:51:36Shawn Ryan?

  In that aspect, I know exactly, I I know exactly what you're talking about.

• 1:51:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know, so it's like

• 1:51:42Shawn Ryan?

  It's nice to know somebody that doesn't want something from you.

• 1:51:46Speaker 06

  It really is. And it's good, like, everybody needs that one or two. If if that's all you can get, cool. That's all you need. You know what I mean? People in your life where there's just a symbiotic needlessness from both sides. You know what I mean? Where it's just like.

• 1:52:01Shawn Ryan?

  Is there a, is there, is there a single best piece of advice, maybe that sticks out in your head from him that, that, that you've really?

• 1:52:13Speaker 06

  From him? From, that you really? Don't, don't, don't sweat the petty pet. No, what is it? Don't sweat the petty pet, the sweaty or something he always says.

• 1:52:28Speaker 06

  What is it? Oh my God, why do I forget it? But he says it all the time. It's like, shut up. Don't, don't sweat the petty pet, the sweaty or something. I think it's a little more clever than that, but he says something like that. And that's, I'm like, dude, that is just so

• 1:52:44Speaker 06

  on brand.

• 1:52:46Shawn Ryan?

  Would you, would you consider him kind of like a mentor?

• 1:52:49Speaker 06

  Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. And whether he knows it or not, doesn't even fucking matter. You know what I mean? Which is kind of cool too, because like I said, I think he just stopped developing after like 13 or something like that. No, for real, like, like he is, he is just, he's like a pet. Sort of like, but he's, he's smart in, in certain areas, but just not mine. And so when he comes to me with like a gadget, oh, my, my favorite Tommy-ism is, uh, I, you know, red cameras?

• 1:53:21Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:21Speaker 06

  So I, I go out and I'm doing a music video out in LA and we wanted the shit, right? And this is like a long time ago, right? So you, Dana, um, White and all the UFC guys kind of pitched in for this video because we, we tied in a lot of UFC kind of themery around it. So it was a big deal. It was a huge production. It was like easily seven figure fucking thing, right? And so part of that was, um, they got the bomb squad from fucking red to come in and, and bring us all this thing. And then we looked at like, I, I, we were all looking over the P and L and cost of everything and stuff like that. And it turned out

• 1:54:00Speaker 06

  the operating and rental cost of one of those red cameras was like so insane that it actually made more sense to buy one.

• 1:54:10Speaker 06

  So I bought one and then I hired an alt to come and fucking did that, right? So that's my red camera now. So I'm like, holy shit, I got a fucking red camera, I'm gonna fucking, I'm gonna shoot all the crazy shit, right? So, you know, I didn't, cause I get into these hobbies, you know what I mean? And sometimes they stick, sometimes they don't, but yeah. But when I get into a hobby, I go like fucking full tilt, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, you like wave surfing? I mean, yeah, fuck it, I'm gonna buy a 25 footer, fucking Tiga, fucking wave ripper thing. And everyone's like, wow, you really like that shit, eh? And I'm like, yeah, for now, you know, like, so I'm like that guy, right? So I, I was really into videography and, and cinematography and photography and all that shit. So I, I get this red and I'm, I'm showing, of course, whenever one of us gets something red, we're on the phone, right? Like, hey buddy, check this out, check this out.

• 1:54:56Speaker 06

  He's like, oh dope, it's like one of those fucking red cameras. I'm like, yeah dude, shoot some fucking like 4K, like 8K, like 120 frames a second. And he's like, oh rad, cool. Like, and then a week later, he'll message me, he's like, dude. I'm like, what? And he's like, I just got this, like the GoPro, the new GoPro, it does 4K. I'm like, yeah, but, and he's like, yeah, no, but it's, it's the same as your fucking red dude, but it's like this big. I'm like, yeah. And he goes, he goes, dude, it's 4K, it says right on it. It's, I'm like, it is, but it's not Tommy, it's not, he's like, I don't, I don't see the fucking difference. I'm like, oh my God. Fuck, bro, I love you, but shut the fuck up. It's 4K.

• 1:55:42Shawn Ryan?

  So you never really got into the, you never really got into the, the, the, the, the, the party?

• 1:55:49Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:55:49Shawn Ryan?

  Comes to the

• 1:55:50Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:55:51Shawn Ryan?

  Festivals and stuff.

• 1:55:52Speaker 06

  No, I'm always so, I'm too socially awkward for that. Actually, one of my worst memories was like trying to be that for like half a second. There's a guy I really like, um, his name is Jeff, uh, he goes by the name Excision. He does like, uh, drum and bass and dubstep, like the really like, whoop shit, basically. It's like, he needs killing it, he's killing, he always has. And, um, he would be, uh, on tour with me. Uh, he, he was actually my opener for like a little bit on a Dead Mouse thing and uh, he was just really cool dude. Chill, easy to work with and, and now he's just like this, fuck it, I couldn't afford him if I wanted to. Um, he's just killing it and I remember we, like, I hadn't seen him in like five years or something like that.

• 1:56:35Speaker 06

  Um, and I, it was like, again, it was at one of these like artist compound things. He had his own little trailer thing and then people just tend to kind of just pop by trailers of people they know or whatever. And they're like, hey bro, you know, whatever. And I was like fucking five years deep. And I was just already a little hungover and I don't know, I, I think, I don't know if this is even true or not. Cause I don't really remember it, but I opened up the fucking door and Jeff was in there with like a whole bunch of like, you know, hangers outers, you know, probably some of them actually his friends, but just like whatever, you know, it was like a whole big party thing. And then when I came in, went yeah, or I don't remember how it went down, but I must've made noise or something like that. I wasn't being rude or anything, but it was just like everyone's drinks, just like,

• 1:57:18Speaker 06

  just silence, radio, yeah, and everyone's looking at me like, what are you doing in here kind of vibe, you know what I mean? And, and then, and so, but I'm just trying to talk to Jeff, but everybody's watching Dead Mouse talk to Excision. You know what I mean? And I was like, fuck, like, hey, like, I don't even know what the fuck can say, right? Like, like, cause now like I'm being auditioned. You know what I mean? It was just really weird and I was like, hey man. He's like, hey, hey. And like,

• 1:57:47Speaker 06

  okay, good, good to see you, man. And I just kind of walked out, you know what I mean? Cause it was just so weird, you know, it's like, I was like, fuck, I'm never doing this again. Unless I truly know the guy, like there's like, I can count on one hand how many DJs or EDM dudes that I actually really like to just hang out with and shoot the shit. Who is somebody you really enjoy? Eric Prince. I love that dude. He is great. He's fucking amazing. He's so chill. He's just so easygoing. He's a pain in the ass to work with, don't get me wrong, but like, like, like in terms of like, if you want to do a show with him, like, fuck god, it's just like pulling teeth with this guy, cause he's, he's as lazy as me when it comes to collaborations

• 1:58:28Speaker 06

  and putting in effort on a project that you're not really going to be permanently invested in in any way, but it's going to be a one time thing, you know? Yeah. So like, bless him for that. Like I, I'd be the same too, but just like as a dude to go have a dinner with and just talk about. How's the farm? You know what I mean? How's fucking Sweden? What's new? You know what I mean? Then that's, that's my dude. I like, I love him. Wolfgang Gardner, another really cool dude. Like, and it's all the older dudes, cause it's just over it. You know what I mean? It's like, so what are you working on?

• 1:59:03Speaker 06

  Like musically, you know what I mean? Like, what's your next move?

• 1:59:07Speaker 06

  You think I want to talk about that? You know what I mean? Like, I, like, I'm like so vested in this, especially in like this kind of area of fucking music that I don't even like anyway. And now you want to know like what my big Grammy aspirations are this year? Like fuck off dude.

• 1:59:20Shawn Ryan?

  Man, I find that so, so odd that you're not even, uh, you don't really like EDM.

• 1:59:26Speaker 06

  No, I don't hate it. I don't hate it. I don't detest it. I'm not up there hating my fucking life going, look at all you idiots. No, it's not that. It's, it's, it's like, I don't, I don't listen to it. How about that? Yeah. Okay. You know what I mean? Like if, if I want to relax and, and just zone out, I, or be inspired. I'm not inspired by modern day EDM or my own, you know what I mean? Like, so there, I'll throw myself under that bus too. You know what I mean? So I, I, a lot of people like kind of might take that out of context when I say, oh, I hate EDM.

• 1:59:58Shawn Ryan?

  I get it, man. I don't, I never listen to any of my interviews.

• 2:00:04Shawn Ryan?

  Half the time I don't even remember what the hell we talked about in here. Cause you know, but I get it.

• 2:00:08Speaker 06

  But you don't hate it.

• 2:00:10Shawn Ryan?

  I don't hate it. I love doing my job.

• 2:00:12Speaker 06

  It's just, that's not your theory.

• 2:00:13Shawn Ryan?

  Very self-critical.

• 2:00:15Speaker 06

  We're making someone else's fucking content, you know, right now. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's the way I feel when I'm up there. So I'm not up there, like I said, being, oh, you know what I mean? Here we go again. You know, I mean, maybe that's a little bit of the attitude. I think that's like sold my shit, you know? Cause it's kind of funny. It's, you know, it's, I'm not, not malicious about it. I'm not like spiteful, but.

• 2:00:35Shawn Ryan?

  It's you.

• 2:00:36Speaker 06

  It's just me being me and that's it. And a lot of people really like, what is that shit? Marmite? Hmm. Yeah. Some people love it. Some people are like, you know what I mean? It's like, I like, I like being in that arena. You know, I don't like, I, I, I can't imagine what it would be like if everyone just fucking loved you.

• 2:00:55Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:56Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Like who, who talks shit about radiohead, you know?

• 2:01:01Speaker 06

  What's that guy's day like? Like, you know, like having to go through all my inbox and not getting a single you suck for no reason email? That sucks.

• 2:01:10Speaker 06

  It's like, who, who goes, ready, fucking Rage Against the Machine? Terrible.

• 2:01:17Shawn Ryan?

  Did you?

• 2:01:18Speaker 06

  Said no one, you know what I mean?

• 2:01:19Shawn Ryan?

  Do you get pressured a lot to partake in the party?

• 2:01:23Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. Oh, no, no, no, no. Not, not, not on site, not at the workplace.

• 2:01:28Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:01:29Speaker 06

  And by workplace, I mean the music festival and all that shit. No, I'm nowhere's near that shit anyway. And even if I was, you know what I mean? Like, but like, if I'm dragged out to an after party, you know what I mean? And then there's some shit going on, there's fucking lines all over the fucking place. And they're like, hey, bro. And I'm like, nah, I'm good. I just, I can't.

• 2:01:49Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:49Speaker 06

  I can't for health reasons, like, like, not that I want to, and it's just the doctor said no. And you know what I mean? It's just like, hmm, I, I, I don't, I, I can, I can already.

• 2:02:04Speaker 06

  It's like going to Burning Man. I don't want to go to Burning Man ever. You know what I mean? Not because it's the trendy thing. It's no cultural hate thing. It's just like, I don't want to be dusty and hot and, and not have a shower possibly. You know what I mean? I just, and I don't want to, I don't want to get accosted with good vibes. And you know what I mean? That's just not my thing. You know what I mean? I'm not into that. So I don't need to try it.

• 2:02:35Speaker 06

  You know, cause I, I, I, I have a very clear image in my head, very clear. I was so, so it's almost like, like blind faith, like a Christian thing, like God is totally real. Belief in my head that I will get dusty and I'll just be irate at all the good vibes and pler and peace and love and open your mind, man, just let it go kind of thing. I am just so faithfully sold that that's what will happen, that I won't do it. It's the same way I feel about drugs. I don't think I'm gonna have a good time. I think I'm gonna freak the fuck out, go into cardiac arrest, possibly die. I don't know. But either way, it's gonna end with me in the hospital or me being, oh my God, you see that guy last night?

• 2:03:21Speaker 06

  That's, that's how I feel about partaking in, in the party scene. You know what I mean? So, but, but I mean, I'm happy to go hang out and have a good time. If people are having a good time, they're playing some really great techno that I really love. And it's all like hanging out, having a fucking beer or two with some friends, absa-fucking-lutely, but. When it comes to like, you know, just fucking,

• 2:03:44Speaker 06

  you know, being in some fucking opium den with a fucking shitload of drugs, saying this is gonna make you feel so great. I don't think it will, so I just don't, you know what I mean?

• 2:03:52Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. I mean, last night you had mentioned that you did a lot of people think that you're

• 2:03:58Speaker 06

  An alcoholic. Yeah, that's a funny one. I, I, I saw a few posts on that. It's like, oh, man, we really gotta talk to Joel about his thing because the only time people ever see me is when I'm on stage, right? Mostly, right? And um, I, I, I have like, three, four, maybe on the top end, five beers, like over the course of like two hours, just to take the edge off. Cause it's like, it's a lot. It's, it's a lot of sensory input. It's, it's the loud music, the monitors, which I need loud because they have to overpower the mains because when you're mixing, you know, sometimes you, you can't have that delay, right? So you gotta have your monitors, like basically a P A system here and here. And that's like in excess of a hundred and thirty dB, which is already like fucking,

• 2:04:43Speaker 06

  okay, I'm up, you know? And then, you know, you got all these people looking at you, uh, not hoping for you to fuck up, but just like they wanna hear your shit, but you don't wanna fuck up for them. So there's pressure on that. And so it's not like I assume everyone out there is judging me. I, I, I think everyone's out there to have a great fucking time and be with their friends and enjoy the music.

• 2:05:04Speaker 06

  So having said that, you know, you don't wanna disappoint that many people.

• 2:05:08Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:09Speaker 06

  Or make a complete ass yourself or, or fuck up, you know what I mean? It's like, well, wait, why are you even in this position? You know, so it's a lot of,

• 2:05:18Speaker 06

  it's very punishing on yourself and a lot of it, you're doing it to yourself. It's not even the audience, you know what I mean? I've never had a boo, fuck you, you, oh, you know what I mean?

• 2:05:28Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:28Speaker 06

  A resounding boo, fuck you. Anyway, but um, a, a couple of drinks help. And so like, I'm just, that's part of the show is me having a fucking Corona all of a sudden. And like, you know, not all of a sudden, but just over the last like 10 years, it's like, wow, this guy drinks a lot.

• 2:05:48Speaker 06

  Now, just when I'm on stage, then after that, then I pee, I get in the car, I go home, and I go to bed. I don't go to the after party and.

• 2:05:57Shawn Ryan?

  That's the routine.

• 2:05:58Speaker 06

  Jack.

• 2:05:59Shawn Ryan?

  Is that, that's gotta be a rarity.

• 2:06:01Speaker 06

  What?

• 2:06:02Shawn Ryan?

  That routine.

• 2:06:02Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:06:03Shawn Ryan?

  Not partaking.

• 2:06:04Speaker 06

  I don't think so.

• 2:06:06Shawn Ryan?

  You don't think that's a rarity?

• 2:06:08Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:06:09Shawn Ryan?

  Do a lot of guys do that?

• 2:06:10Speaker 06

  I, I think a lot, oh, like, maybe the older dudes, you know, probably, oh, oh, don't get me wrong, when I was saying my twenties, my first fucking tour? Holy shit. Yeah, I know, it was that, let's go to the after party, let's do this, let's do that, and it was just alcohol and then hangovers and fuck it, yeah, it was rough, dude. Yeah, my first or second tours were like exhausting in the sense that I went hard. But then I just like, okay, this year I'm not gonna do that.

• 2:06:42Shawn Ryan?

  How, how long did that take for it to?

• 2:06:44Speaker 06

  Three, four years.

• 2:06:45Shawn Ryan?

  That's it?

• 2:06:46Speaker 06

  To calm down.

• 2:06:47Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that's not long.

• 2:06:47Speaker 06

  Well, some people don't, like, I, I know Steve Aoki's still fucking. I'm like, I don't know how you do this, dude, but he works out and shit, he's pretty fit. Like, I don't.

• 2:06:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:58Speaker 06

  So, there's that.

• 2:07:01Shawn Ryan?

  Let's go into, I wanna, I wanna ask you about how the mouse head has developed in the, since its existence.

• 2:07:08Speaker 06

  Um, not much, not much, it has not really changed, you know what I mean, it's not like an evolving art project. It's just like, I, I built new ones with just like different looks to them, just because like the other one got fucking destroyed.

• 2:07:22Shawn Ryan?

  What do you see when you put it on? What's in there?

• 2:07:24Speaker 06

  My fucking, nothing. Um, oh, the, what do you mean, like how?

• 2:07:31Shawn Ryan?

  Like, can you see in there?

• 2:07:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, absolutely. That'd be weird if I couldn't see.

• 2:07:34Shawn Ryan?

  Is there electronics in there?

• 2:07:36Speaker 06

  No, no, no, no, there's like a grill.

• 2:07:38Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:07:38Speaker 06

  And it's just perforated just enough that it looks solid coming this way, but out that way, you're like, oh, yeah, no.

• 2:07:44Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, no kidding.

• 2:07:45Speaker 06

  I see plain as fucking day.

• 2:07:46Shawn Ryan?

  So you got like three hundred and sixty degree?

• 2:07:48Speaker 06

  No, no, no, just the, just this little mouth part, so like one eighty.

• 2:07:52Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, you're looking through the mouth.

• 2:07:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, turn your head.

• 2:07:56Shawn Ryan?

  I could've swore I saw wires coming out of it.

• 2:07:58Speaker 06

  There was one that was entirely covered with LED that had goggles on the inside. But uh, so the whole thing lit up. It was like an LED mask, so I could draw pictures on it and do all this crazy light shit. And that was cool. Um, and I wish I could still do it, but this, the problem is with that tech is it was so finicky. The upkeep on that stupid helmet like, cause it, it would have been great. Like if I would be playing in the same couch, in the same quiet room every night where I could just kind of put that thing away and do that thing. But everything that you do for that touring purpose has to be built fucking robustly. Because that thing is just gonna get beaten the fuck up. It's gonna be in rogue cases, airplanes every fucking day.

• 2:08:40Speaker 06

  And the like, that head required soldering every fucking stop because a LED broke or an ear broke or something like it. So it was just maintenance, maintenance, maintenance, maintenance. And I, and I rocked it for like almost a solid year, but then it was just like, this thing is such a pain in the ass. When I, when I stopped wearing it, half my crew were like, oh.

• 2:09:02Speaker 06

  Cause it was literally one of the jobs was to solder this back on, get this battery working again, or this cable got disconnected somehow, or yeah, it was, and it, and it was heavy. It was a neckbreaker too, so I can only wear it for like a little bit. And then I'd have to replace it with one that looked exactly like it, but didn't have the electronics in it that wasn't on. So we called it the dummy head. So it was like ultra light, but it looked like the real one. Yeah. So it was just, it was such an operation. It was like, fuck, what a stupid idea. Wear a mouse head, they said. It'll be fun, they said. In the name. In the name. Where did the name come from? The name came from, uh, long story short, uh, fucking a mouse crawled into my computer and died on my GPU.

• 2:09:45Speaker 06

  And it just reeked up my whole apartment. And I'm like looking around everywhere in my apartment for this like fucking carcass. Cause you could smell it. You know what dead shit smells like, right? And it's like, fuck me, man. And I'm like, cleaning everything. And it was like the last place you're gonna look, right? Is inside your PC. And your PC's got like a little fan in the back too, so it's just.

• 2:10:08Speaker 06

  Blowing this fucking smell around and and I remember I was on some internet like chatroom on IRC and um my name used to be like halcyon441 because it fit in the thing. And so I I would go into this group that I was I had a lot of familiar friends in and stuff like that. And then I I would tell them, oh, my God, guys, I've found it. There's a fucking mouse like that got fried on my GPU like inside the tower and the fan's just been blown out of the small time. And I was like, oh, fuck, that's nasty. There's no way you would have found that. No, no, because I had to change a GPU. That's the only way I found it because otherwise I don't need to open up my computer, right? It's it's good to go. And I was like, fuck. And they're like, dude, that's so fucking gross. No, no, no.

• 2:10:53Speaker 06

  And I was like, haha. So that was kind of like the story of the day, right? And I remember leaving the room or whatever and then going back the next day like because I was also programming for a company called Robust Tech. So a lot of the employees would be in there or whatever. And and and there was a lot of transients in that channel too, like meeting people that would just like log on, log off, see what's going on. Um, so there's always like someone new. It wasn't just the same 20 people. It was like about 100 people in this room. And um, then and when I would get back on and be like, hey, morning, there was like, oh, it's the dead mouse guy. So they would say the dead mouse guy. They kept calling me the dead mouse guy. And so I'm like, fuck you guys, dude. It's good like, come on, it's not funny. And then um, and so I just decided to get on the joke.

• 2:11:36Speaker 06

  So I changed my nickname to D E A D M O U S E. But then, you know, on F net, when I go to fucking return that and say, give me that Nick, it would do D E A D M O U S because the E was one character too long. You can only have eight characters as a name on F net, right? You couldn't just have a long name on DownNet. You could, but on F net you couldn't. So I had to trim it down. So I had to do D E A D M A U five, which is like the leet speak version of mouse. Like, you know, all these say hacks or right, like H four X zero R, you know what I mean? It's just kind of part of that Cyrillic uh, using a a number in the place of a letter kind of stylization of a word.

• 2:12:18Speaker 06

  So I I I changed my name to like dead mouse with a five. I'm like, basically like it was a they're happy. Now everybody knows it's me, right? Like kind of thing. And I wasn't really actively putting out music as that mouse when I did that either. And so then when it came time before the mouse head even. Um, to release like faxing Berlin and, and some of my first tracks might that actually got picked up. I was like, I didn't have a name and they were like, whoa, is it gonna be that halcyon four, four, one shit? And I was like, actually, let's just do dead mouse. And I go, yeah, let's just do dead mouse, fuck it. And they were like, what? And I was like, yeah, cuz like, you know, like, I think all good DJ names should be two syllables. And they're like, what are you talking about? And I go, have you ever heard a crowd go, T S though?

• 2:13:03Speaker 06

  No, it's always like nah, nah, nah, nah. And I'm like dead mouse. And I go cake now, now imagine a whole bunch of people yelling dead mouse at the same time. How fucked up is that? That's pretty funny. And they're like, okay, whatever. You can pick it, man. Like, go for it. And I was like, dead mouse, I'm doing it. Like Jay-Z is already taken. So.

• 2:13:26Shawn Ryan?

  Would you, when you look back at your catalog over the last, what, 28 years, maybe, maybe more?

• 2:13:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, less.

• 2:13:34Shawn Ryan?

  What, I mean, what?

• 2:13:38Shawn Ryan?

  Which tracks of your music really, I mean, do you enjoy? Not the fans, not?

• 2:13:44Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 2:13:45Shawn Ryan?

  Just you?

• 2:13:47Speaker 06

  Oh, uh, well lately, it would have been my, where's the drop? Cause I actually wrote a symphony and nobody knows or cares. Well, sure, the fans do, they love it. But, um, I, me and Gregory Reveret, um, wrote a symphony. I've always wanted to write a symphony and it's, uh, it's like 80 minute long fucking symphony.

• 2:14:08Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:14:08Speaker 06

  Of actual shit with, with, and it was scored, uh, um, I did the original score and then Greg did the transcription. Um, and then it was, uh, performed by the Finak, uh, which is like an 80 piece, uh, orchestra. And we did two shows at the Wiltern Theater in Los Angeles with 80, 80 players.

• 2:14:30Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 2:14:31Speaker 06

  And it's all music you probably wouldn't even know, like, or it's none of my hits, really. Like, maybe some abstractions on some of them, like Monophobia and Avaricia and Imaginary Friends, but they were all like super orchestrated. And I'm, because I noticed this kind of trend, uh, in EDM with the old timers. I like to say that, the us, uh, of dudes that have just kind of taken their classic songs and then had them. Reimagined by orchestra, but then when I would listen to them, they would, they're the same tracks. I mean, good look, it's kick drum in it and it's all very syncopated and it's still sounding like a dance track, just with a really good string section in it. And I was like, nah, I think they need to be, I think this needs to be like a, an actual fucking symphony. Like, let's write a fucking,

• 2:15:15Speaker 06

  like, I need this, you know what I mean? Like, I wanna make music in the way that the fucking Prokofsky did, back in fucking way back when, like, do a legitimate orchestra, no, no bells and whistles, no, no, here's a symphony playing with some EDM sprinkled on top. No, fuck the EDM. Let's just make M. No kidding? Yeah, it was really cool. When, when did you do that?

• 2:15:46Speaker 06

  Five, six years ago? Yeah. I still have this score and everything. It's really cool. It was like, it was just like one of those things that I've done that I was like, wow, that was really cool. Like, I'm especially proud of that and I've always wanted to do that. And it was neat hearing it, you know, being sitting there surrounded by like 80 fucking top tier fucking players, play shit that you wrote. You're like, holy fuck. Very cool. Yeah, it was the coolest fucking experience. Where can, uh, where can I find that? It's just called Where's the Drop. Uh, you can Google it. I will. It's, it's just not, it's just like, cause it's just not, it wasn't pop, you know what I mean? Um, but like, I didn't care. Like, it was something I wanted to do and title really helped out with that.

• 2:16:30Speaker 06

  They, they helped fund it because that shit is not fucking cheap. That is way over seven figures to pull something like that together because you got all those players, all the, all the composers, the, the conductor, John Beal. Uh, he was amazing. And, um, yeah, it was, it was a whole lot. Yeah, we rented out East West Studios and fucking did it in their big room, you know, where they do all the major film scores and stuff like that. Oh, wow, that's amazing. Really cool. So I got to sit through and listen to that and I was like, okay, no, that's it. Like, I'm done. I've musicked, you know, yeah, that's what I, that's what I took away from that.

• 2:17:07Speaker 06

  So that, that, that would be it. Not so much me just kind of like toiling around in my own personal studio space with my computers and stuff and just kind of coming up with shit. It's fun too, but it's just not the same as working with a team of, you know, people and, and being respectful of that space to do it exclusively in that space, not, not force fucking my shit into it. You know what I mean? Like saying, here's a whole bunch of EDM. I just, I just want you to be like an accompanying thing in the back so that I can say that I did that. You know what I mean? Now we, I just like, no, we're doing this a hundred percent fucking traditional pen and paper fucking.

• 2:17:47Shawn Ryan?

  That's amazing.

• 2:17:48Speaker 06

  Let's do it. Yeah, it was, it was great.

• 2:17:50Shawn Ryan?

  When you're, when you are making your music, do you know what's gonna be a hit?

• 2:17:56Speaker 06

  I really don't. No, no. My biggest hit, I almost shit canned. I, I did the guy, there was a guy at a mousetrap that was working for us named Harvey Tabman. Uh, he was my tour manager for like a little bit. I wrote Strobe, uh, in a fucking hotel room at the Great Eastern Hotel in England. I had my computer and everything, you know, just kind of did, did, did that track. And then I just basically kind of packaged it together with five other things that I just went, here guys, listen to these. What do you, what's the take or what do we, what are we doing here? And I had my money on this other one or something. And, um, Harvey's like, oh, I fucking love this one, this, this Strobe one. I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not doing it.

• 2:18:38Speaker 06

  Nope. Nope. I refuse. No, it's just, I just, it's not there for me, like the sound and that. And he's like, right, mate, you gotta put it out. And I'm like, no, dude, it's not happening. He badgered me for months. And then finally, when we had to, we had to get something else out that I, I literally ran out of options. I just gave in. I was like, fine, Harvey. And then we put it out and it just became my biggest fucking track. I like, uh, short of Ghosts and Stuff. Which was also written in the same hotel room, actually.

• 2:19:05Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 2:19:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I called it Ghosts and Stuff because allegedly that hotel's haunted and my door kept opening. Sorry. And I arbitrarily, like, I'm like that, uh, I love lamp. That's how I name tracks. You know what I mean? Like, like literally, if I were finishing a track right now, I'd call it a Fanda.

• 2:19:25Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding. That's it.

• 2:19:27Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 2:19:27Shawn Ryan?

  Just done. Kick it out the door.

• 2:19:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, just, okay, there's the name. Um, and not like, uh, named after some natural disaster or poisonous animal, which seems to be the fucking trend in EDM. What's it called? Tsunami. What's it called? Tarantula. What's it called? Viper.

• 2:19:47Speaker 06

  I'm just not that pretentious, I guess. What's it called? It's called shitfist McGee. I don't care. Just put it out.

• 2:19:56Shawn Ryan?

  What is, uh, what's, what's your, what's your newest Grammy nomination for?

• 2:20:00Speaker 06

  Uh, oh, me and Cascade, um, for a KX5 album. Dance album of the year. It's pretty cool. Um, I, me, I, I don't know what to say. I mean, like, I get it. Like, it's, it's, it's, it's nice. I think it's more for the fans than it is for my personal satisfaction. I remember actually I had a really funny conversation with Trent Reznor about Grammys once, and I was just like, he, he was up for, oh, no, sorry, Emmys? Or Grammys or some Gold Globe? I don't know, some bullshit. He, he did, uh, Gone Girl soundtrack, right? With Atticus Ross? And it's like, uh, still like one of my favorite soundtracks.

• 2:20:39Speaker 06

  And he was up for like either a Grammy or a, uh, some fucking thing that you get in Hollywood for doing a thing, right? One of those. And, um, he was, uh, I would, I was talking to him about some other unrelated shit. And I knew he was up for the thing and he, and he didn't win it over some other bullshit, right? Like, or whatever, you know, I'm sure it was bullshit, but just like, he just basically didn't win it. And I remember saying, I'm like, yeah, but I mean, come on, man, like, fuck, you've done so much. Like, do you really need a shiny piece of fucking plastic to validate your position in what you fucking do, dude, really? And then he went. Yeah, I fucking do. Cause I because because he worked so fucking hard at it. You know what I mean?

• 2:21:21Speaker 06

  Like, I mean, that was like his thing. And I was like, I was not expecting that fucking answer from him at all. I was just like, holy shit. I was like, okay, I, I kinda get it. Cause I did feel that way once or twice when I'm maybe my third or fourth nomination and then just decided, I'm not even gonna show up. Cause it's just, it's the same, it's the same batch every year and it's the same batch this year too. Same shit. And I'm like, I think we all know how this is gonna play out. So, but cool. It's good to be recognized. You know what I mean? I, I feel good that like, hey, I'm, I'm still getting nominated for these fucking things, which means I'm still doing it like kinda okay. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not like

• 2:22:04Speaker 06

  falling off and, and pigeonholing myself into the same sound that would just stagnate my shit into back into obscurity. You know what I mean? Yeah. Uh, like, like, that's a really hard thing to do as an artist. I, I would imagine is, um, being able to keep it up.

• 2:22:26Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Like, cause a lot of guys will come out with some really great ideas and have these original hits and just come flying out of the fucking gate two years. Who? Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, there's a lot of that. It's, it's, it's not the act of making that hit. It's the act of being consistently doing things. And, and that's not even just music. Cause I am, I do so much other shit, even now outside of EDM. So that when, when my music career just decides to, I like to say, I'm only ever one tweet away from ending this.

• 2:23:04Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? So you gotta keep that in mind. And that, that's not just for me. That's anybody. You know what I mean? You're only ever one tweet away from ending your fucking career. So, so keep your ancillary fucking ports open and your interests vested in all sorts of things. And you know what I mean? Not that I'm planning on something, but I just mean, you know, it's just, I like, I like, I like the idea that my house can burn down and I'll be like,

• 2:23:31Shawn Ryan?

  Just move over here.

• 2:23:33Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? And then just go somewhere else.

• 2:23:36Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:37Speaker 06

  Or or do something else.

• 2:23:38Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, you have a lot of other interests.

• 2:23:42Speaker 06

  Hmm. Yeah, software, technology, I'm in the beverage space, apparently. It's fun.

• 2:23:49Shawn Ryan?

  When how did that start?

• 2:23:50Speaker 06

  Um, just some buddies. From Toronto, local dudes, uh, we're like, hey, we're starting to drink, you wanna? Wanna be a, you wanna invest? You know, hey, kind of. Well, okay, that's not really a big ask, you know, like, it's not a huge commitment for me, other than, you know, my brands don't fuck it up. You know, uh, and, uh, yeah, I I went in with them and and they just, they rocketed it. They are such businessmen, I'm not like I I'm. I've got a brand and I've got like aesthetic and, uh. Stuff like that, so I I lent them that and, you know, those kind of social networking things that need to happen, but, uh, yeah, they killed it. They now they're distributed all over fucking Canada and the States and everywhere now, I'm like, wow, you guys are really doing this.

• 2:24:34Shawn Ryan?

  What is it?

• 2:24:34Speaker 06

  It's called Coco vodka.

• 2:24:36Shawn Ryan?

  Coco vodka.

• 2:24:37Speaker 06

  Hmm. It's like. What it sounds like.

• 2:24:42Shawn Ryan?

  Coconut flavor vodka.

• 2:24:43Speaker 06

  Got it.

• 2:24:44Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 2:24:44Speaker 06

  And apparently it's pretty good. I mean, I like it like, but but like, I like, I like, I like eating dry iced tea mix, so what does that tell you, you know? But I like, um. A lot of people like it. So people come over like I know, and I I tend to associate myself with like, like, like I said, people that won't blow smoke up my ass. Cause I there's nothing more I can't stand that is a fucking yes person. Like that just like prove me wrong, educate me, you know what I mean? Like, don't say you're wrong and then say fuck you and then walk out. I just mean like, you know, contribute and then I'll learn something and that's amazing for both of us, right? Cause you get to correct a fucking dude who, you know, is that and I get to learn something, you know, and that's cool. So like, again, the but.

• 2:25:25Speaker 06

  But even when it comes to video games, like the taste of like, uh, what games you like to fucking play, you know what I mean? I I like to tell someone I play fucking PUBG and they're like, dude, that kid fucking trash and you should put there and I'm like, yeah. And then we can have a conversation, you know what I mean? So I don't surround myself with like, oh, yeah, guys, you know what I mean? So, uh, and and those people, like I said, I've given them this stuff and they're like, yeah, it's. It's pretty good, like, I like it, can you get me a case? I'm like, okay, so they're doing it right.

• 2:25:55Shawn Ryan?

  How long, when did that start?

• 2:25:58Speaker 06

  Three years ago?

• 2:25:59Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, right on.

• 2:25:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. So they've been at it. Like, they, they, their definition of, they can peel oranges in their fucking pockets. They're like grinders, dude.

• 2:26:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:07Speaker 06

  They're out there. But that's cool.

• 2:26:09Shawn Ryan?

  Man, I gotta tell you, that's refreshing to hear that you don't surround yourself with a bunch of yes men. Uh, I mean, I, I feel like a lot of people do.

• 2:26:17Speaker 06

  That, well, some people, that's the validation they need. I don't know. I think everybody just wants.

• 2:26:21Shawn Ryan?

  You appreciate that. You appreciate somebody calling you out.

• 2:26:25Speaker 06

  Well, within reason, if it has substance, you know what I mean? If it can be, if it can be empirically backed up, you know what I mean? Like I said, like, I, I love criticism too, but I don't love you suck.

• 2:26:37Shawn Ryan?

  You like constructive criticism?

• 2:26:39Speaker 06

  Constructive, but not even constructive. Like I'm saying, hey, I need a fucking 20-page essay and then I'll take you seriously.

• 2:26:47Speaker 06

  No, I just need a point. You know what I mean? Like, like, something like empirical. I'm very empirical based, you know, in terms of like,

• 2:26:58Speaker 06

  I don't know, you, you say that, but why, why would you say that? You know what I mean? Cause there's a lot of like, and maybe I'm kind of crusading in such a way that's like, there's a lot of tutorials on like YouTube and stuff like that for dudes that like, you know, kind of poised themselves as professionals and maybe by qualification that says,

• 2:27:24Speaker 06

  I once got paid for this, therefore I'm a professional, or I don't know where we draw that line nowadays with a lot of this kind of noise that you see on social media of I'm a this guy, I'm a, I do this. And I, I'm not saying I need to see your credentials before I take your fucking opinion because you don't, like, you could be smart without having done anything. A lot of people are like that, but there's a lot of tutorial stuff where people are then kind of enforcing that education on other people and they're like, basically, I don't know what this does, but you should do it.

• 2:27:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:58Speaker 06

  And we should all just homogenize our sound to this, you know? Use this limiter at the end of the chain to make it as loud as possible. When empirically you'd be saying, hey, let's strip all the dynamic range out of your track so it'll sound shit in a nightclub, but it'll sound really great on your earbuds. You know what I mean? Which kind of is a play, I suppose. And then, and then when they're kind of called out on that bullshit, they're like, well, that's the style. Like, well, you can't fucking argue that. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, you remember they were like, we used to, we, our black metal was recorded through a, a fucking headphone. You know what I mean? And it was done stylistically that, of course, it's empirically wrong.

• 2:28:40Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? But then, and then, but you, you, they like to hide behind this art wall.

• 2:28:46Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 2:28:47Speaker 06

  To hide their ignorance.

• 2:28:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:48Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? So like, that I don't like. That those are the kind of arguments I knew this is, is hiding behind art. Uh, you know, hiding ignorance behind art. I hate that. Cause there's such a shield you can fucking throw up in front of anything these days. You know what I mean? That can just invalidate anyone's

• 2:29:10Speaker 06

  justified opinion over yours.

• 2:29:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:12Speaker 06

  You, you know what I mean? So it's like,

• 2:29:16Speaker 06

  it's like saying one plus one is three.

• 2:29:20Shawn Ryan?

  What, uh, what are some things that you struggle with? To bother you?

• 2:29:37Speaker 06

  Being social, I think.

• 2:29:39Shawn Ryan?

  You'd like to, and be able to improve how.

• 2:29:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, being, being, being people that I like. You know what I mean?

• 2:29:46Shawn Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:29:47Speaker 06

  Um,

• 2:29:49Speaker 06

  like I said, I mean, I don't, I don't know. Like, I mean, I've known Tommy for like 20 fucking years. You know what I mean? And I still feel like

• 2:29:58Speaker 06

  maybe there's like just some shit about him that

• 2:30:04Speaker 06

  um,

• 2:30:06Speaker 06

  isn't what I would want. You know what I mean? Like to be like, or something like that, but I've just never seen it. You know what I mean? Um, but, but like I, I struggle to kinda be a person that I respect. You know what I mean? Cause it's hard not being myself, which is this kind of like abrasive dude sometimes, you know what I mean? Like in situations, you know what I mean? It's like, I, I can, I can make a conscious effort not to be a dick to someone I think I should be a dick to. You know what I mean? Like I can, I can behave like that. That's fine. But I, I sometimes can't.

• 2:30:45Speaker 06

  I don't know if that makes any sense. I can't. Everybody wants to be.

• 2:30:55Speaker 06

  Liked, I guess. You know what I mean, to a degree? Or, you know, I don't think anyone really wants to be hated, or villainized, or whatever. Nobody, nobody probably gets any satisfaction out of that. If they say they do, it's just because they've just gone so far down that fucking road. That's all they know. And they're like, okay, I think I like this. I'm a bad guy. Look at me. I'm gonna go to Mars. You know, like, whatever.

• 2:31:19Speaker 06

  But, like, it's just really hard to constantly put myself in a headspace where I should be like someone I respect when I'm dealing with an unknown person. You know what I mean? That's tough. It's hard not to be yourself.

• 2:31:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Do you?

• 2:31:47Shawn Ryan?

  How often do you? How often are you, I don't know how to fucking ask this question.

• 2:31:53Speaker 06

  It is weird. I think I know where you're going.

• 2:31:56Shawn Ryan?

  How often do you find yourself not being yourself? Not being true to yourself, not being who you are?

• 2:32:05Speaker 06

  Hmm, not that often. Not that often, because I've made a point to be just so reclusive, you know what I mean? And I avoid people, like, I avoid them at shows. Not, not like, like, eh, get away from me. No, I just mean, like.

• 2:32:19Shawn Ryan?

  Are you avoiding people or certain situations?

• 2:32:22Speaker 06

  Certain situations with people. You know what I mean? I guess. I don't, I don't have the best empathy at all. You know what I mean? I don't know what it is. I don't. I can admit that, you know what I mean? There's a lot of people that like, just like, totally virtue signaling on how they feel for everybody. And this and that, and oh, this is why I'm so nice, is because I understand this. I, some, sometimes I just don't get people at all. I don't get, I, I don't feel that same kind of like.

• 2:32:56Speaker 06

  bummed outness that you would feel if your cat died, you know what I mean? I can relate, but I can't be as sad as you and fully understand you. And that's why we wouldn't get along at that time. You know what I mean?

• 2:33:09Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:10Speaker 06

  So that's weird.

• 2:33:11Shawn Ryan?

  You don't take other people's, you don't take on the baggage.

• 2:33:15Speaker 06

  I can't. And it's not because I can't, I'm not emotionally equipped to deal with. I, I just mean that like, yeah, this is really deep. Cause I've never, I've never really thought about that that much to prove my fucking point. But, uh, yeah, I don't, I don't really empathize as much as people would want you to. I'm not saying I'm like totally devoid of empathy. I fucking, no, I've just been in, I've been in relationships and I've been through, you know, family tragedies and stuff like that. And I've always felt like I was the guy who gave the least amount of fucks. You know what I mean? Like, but I mean, the least amount of fucks, not like in the world, like I'm like cheering that on.

• 2:33:59Shawn Ryan?

  What you're saying, man.

• 2:33:59Speaker 06

  You know what I mean?

• 2:34:00Shawn Ryan?

  You're saying you feel guilty because you don't feel guilty.

• 2:34:04Speaker 06

  And then they're like, well, that, that's kind of a form of empathy too. But yeah, but it's, it's different. You know what I mean?

• 2:34:12Shawn Ryan?

  I do.

• 2:34:12Speaker 06

  Cause I remember, I remember, I remember getting called out for that once. I'm probably gonna catch shit for this, but like, I remember my grandma's funeral. It was like, everybody was like, you know what I mean? Well, fucking funerals, bummer, you know, grandma's dead and, and we were, me and my grandmother were the closest. Right? She's the one that got me into computers and, and she, she bought the Atari for herself. So we could go over and play it and stuff like that. She was the, she was the, the one, right? That kind of got me in there, right? So, and I was like, I remember being at the service and I'm just like.

• 2:34:50Speaker 06

  And my sister actually kinda gave me the what for, you know what I mean? Like, why aren't you? And I, and then we got, we got in a fight over it, you know what I mean? Like, not, not like on sight or whatever, but there was some.

• 2:35:06Shawn Ryan?

  Some friction.

• 2:35:06Speaker 06

  Some friction there, you know what I mean? I'm just like, I just, I don't know, I just, I'm not that upset over it, you know what I mean? Not, not, not like I'm glad, I just mean that that's fucking, that's what happens and I'm, you know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't wanna put myself where you're at.

• 2:35:22Shawn Ryan?

  You're gonna dwell on it.

• 2:35:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, and whatever, it's so, and it was really weird and that's why I was like, fuck, man, am I just, am I gonna grow up to be a fucking serial killer? Like, what's going on here? You know what I mean? That made me question a couple of fucking things. So, yeah, that's in, and I haven't even really thought about that until you literally just brought that up in like fucking 20 years.

• 2:35:43Speaker 06

  So that's really weird. But yeah, I guess that's, I, if I could do better at that, it would be at that.

• 2:35:53Speaker 06

  Or at least faking it.

• 2:35:56Speaker 06

  You know what I mean?

• 2:35:57Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know, I mean, I don't think there's a reason to fake it. I mean, people, people.

• 2:36:02Speaker 06

  Well, yeah.

• 2:36:03Shawn Ryan?

  It's like people like to.

• 2:36:05Speaker 06

  Why are you so weird, dude?

• 2:36:06Shawn Ryan?

  People like to, man, I don't wanna say lower themselves, but they, you know, they will, they like to dwell on, on stuff, you know, and it's, it's, they don't wanna leave the tragedy or whatever they're, whatever they're in at the moment that's, that's, that's, that's keeping them down. You know, they, they, a lot of people, I think, they just, they dwell in that, in that space.

• 2:36:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, but it's not even just that. It could just be a simple, basic, it's like, it doesn't have to be that heavy. I just mean, like, even things like where, like, I had some fans come up to me at an airport once and it was, it was the worst possible fucking time to come talk to me. Like, I was so fucking pissed. Long story short, but like, like, I just, like, this shit went down with my fucking tech and, and I had a show and I was like on zero fucking sleep and I'm losing my fucking mind because this piece of shit software was doing this thing. Anyway, it was, it was enough to throw me into a murderous rage and these people came up to me and I didn't, I didn't know who the fuck they were, right? They just start talking at me, right? And I'm just like.

• 2:37:14Speaker 06

  Not having it, right? And, and just like, and I said, would you just fuck off? You know, like basically like, I don't, I don't know who the fuck you are. I didn't know who they were, right? And then, and then as they were leaving, they were like, well, we were big fans. And then I was like, fuck sakes, you know what I mean? Like, fuck, I can't believe I just did that. I felt terrible. Like, holy shit. But then I'm like, well, why did I even act like that? Why didn't I just say, hey, hey, you know, I'm just having a really bad time right now? Like, like, like Tommy would, you know what I mean? Or, or someone else I know would, you know what I mean? Like where I just like literally let them have it in the fucking airport where people were like, what the fuck's going on over there? And I was like,

• 2:37:53Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. One, one thing, I mean, I'm new with this, you know, and, and uh, my name's gaining a lot of recognition these days with the show and, and um, one thing I'm starting to notice is the,

• 2:38:08Shawn Ryan?

  the bigger things get, the, it's like you're not allowed to have a bad day.

• 2:38:13Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:38:14Shawn Ryan?

  Everybody's allowed to have a bad day, but you can't have a bad day or else you're a fucking asshole.

• 2:38:19Speaker 06

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 2:38:20Shawn Ryan?

  Feel like that?

• 2:38:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, sometimes, sometimes. But then, but when you think of it that way, like literally the audacity of it just like absolves you from any fuck you you've ever fucking said and you get on with your fucking day. Like I said, I, I forgot about that incident like fucking two days later, you know, and then I'm like, fine, cool. I even like went to Twitter. I was like, dude, cause I felt fucking terrible and I, I didn't like, yeah, okay. I've got like a million fucking fans, but you know, what's, what's two? You know what I mean? Like, well, it sucks that like just the thought of somebody's just like thinking about what an asshole you are in an, in your entirety because of that one, you know what I mean?

• 2:38:56Shawn Ryan?

  You don't like, yeah, you're being judged by one bad moment.

• 2:38:59Speaker 06

  I've lost fucking major like big deals, like literally seven figure fucking sponsorship things because of something they dug up, you know, and they're like, well, you know, back in ninety seven, you said this on the internet and yeah. And then you're like, fuck, I did, I know. And, and that sucked and it was stupid, but fuck me if that's gonna fucking, you know, bite me in the ass like in twenty twenty, you know, like, it's just fucking weird. But can't be too mad at that because that's just the fucking world we live in, you know?

• 2:39:30Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think the, do you think that the lack of empathy?

• 2:39:36Shawn Ryan?

  Affects relationships that you're in?

• 2:39:40Speaker 06

  Personal ones?

• 2:39:40Shawn Ryan?

  Personal ones.

• 2:39:41Speaker 06

  Uh.

• 2:39:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, but only the ones that just are kinda here there and gone. Uh, every relationship I've ever made that I feel like I have a solid relationship with. I've been, we've been friends for life and probably will be till fucking dead and gone, you know? So like it hasn't affected the relationships that I have like with Tommy or Steve or Bryce or fucking my lawyer or fuck, you know, like my business team and all these people that I've been working with for decades and decades. No.

• 2:40:13Shawn Ryan?

  What about family or women?

• 2:40:15Speaker 06

  Uh, family? Nah, family's family. That's unconditional. That's not like, I'm with my family anyway, you know, um, it's been cool. It's just like, we all bug each other and we all meet up at Christmas and fucking hang out at each other's houses every now and again. So it's, it's, things have all mellowed out now that we're all like adults.

• 2:40:34Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:35Speaker 06

  So it's, it's cool. I've been fortunate um, to have that kinda stability within the family there. Uh, women, eh, not so much, you know, I, I just, I just gotta find the right one. That's like just willing to like, just enjoy just not fucking talking about shit, you know? I'm sure there's one out there.

• 2:40:54Shawn Ryan?

  Wha- what are you looking for in a woman?

• 2:40:56Speaker 06

  I don't know.

• 2:40:57Shawn Ryan?

  How you do?

• 2:40:58Speaker 06

  I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not looking for a woman, you know what I mean? I'm just, I'm looking to like, figure out what I'm fucking doing this week, you know? Like honestly, like I'm just, I'm kinda over relationships. Cause I just, I don't have that capacity to be the, the fifty fifty kinda fucking thing, you know what I mean? Because it's like.

• 2:41:24Speaker 06

  I used to always wonder, why do actors always date actors? Why do musicians always date musicians? I'm like, I kinda get that now. Not that I wanna date an actor or a fucking musician. Been there, done that. Fuck, no thanks. It's just crazy. I don't know.

• 2:41:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:39Speaker 06

  I think, I think maybe. As I get older and wiser, I'll calm down and get a more solid routine. Like some dudes are great fucking at that shit like Cascade, fucking amazing. He's got a wife, three daughters and you tours like a motherfucker and he just makes it work because he's just a zen fucking cow in fucking India, you know, like he's just, he just goes with it. He's all good, but me, I'm like, I'm just high octane stress and travel and, and then thinking of my next like kind of thing, you know?

• 2:42:17Shawn Ryan?

  When we talk about kind of the, I want to ask you how you handled the come up in, when it comes to fame?

• 2:42:28Shawn Ryan?

  How have you dealt with that?

• 2:42:30Speaker 06

  I, like I said, I've always, I've always felt it's like that just, it's weird. Like I was really off put by somebody coming up with me and asking for an autograph, not because it was inconvenient to me because I can't relate. I don't know what it is with me or whatever, but I just, I don't care who it is. I, I mean, of course I respect people and I, and I, I like look up to people that, you know, some people that are like, you know, really brilliant in an area that I only wish I was a fraction of or talented and music and that, but I don't think I have ever had that so much of a feeling that I wouldn't know how to control myself if I was near them or was locked in a

• 2:43:15Speaker 06

  room with them or, or a chance to meet him and shit like that. I just don't get it. And I think maybe that's the same part of your brain that the empathy thing, I don't fucking know, but um, I have, I would have imagined that like, say, meeting Trent Reznor at Mel's Diner fucking LA would have been like this big. I've waited my whole life for this moment thing, but it was literally honestly just diluted down to two fucking nerds eating shitty food at Mel's, talking about fucking how Twitter sucks or something. You know what I mean? Like it's just, it wasn't anything. It wasn't like, you know, me looking into his eyes and thanking him for inspiring me to be this, you know, it's

• 2:44:00Speaker 06

  like, and it was because I just like, people do that to me all the time. And I'm like, and I'm not saying I'm gonna spare you that. I just didn't feel compelled to do it. You know what I mean? It's just like, I don't like, I don't think he personally picked me, you know, and then decided to start a career so that he could get me where I would need it to be, you know, that's a, that's a weird way to think about it, you know?

• 2:44:24Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:25Speaker 06

  Cause that's how I would imagine it would make him feel if I said that, you know what I mean? You know, and it's, and it's almost a way, but you can't be rude. You can't be, you can't fucking, you can't tear people down by saying

• 2:44:41Speaker 06

  nothing to like, like I do mean rates. Like I can, I can perform like socially with people. Like I can deal with a fan. That's fine. You know, in, in the right setting, of course, not when I got my dick in my hands in the fucking urinal and a dude comes up beside you. He's like, hey, bro, we like your fucking music. And then you turn around and go, what? You know, like if that's fucked up, like there have been some weird shit, things like that. But in the right setting, at the right fucking time, read the fucking room, you know, and I'm approached and says, hey, man, you know, I'm a really big fan, you know, I do this because of you, you know? And I'm like, that's like, that's heavier than you know, you know what I mean? To put on somebody, you know what I mean? I'm not saying I'm like, I'm gonna yell at him. Ah, I, I just go, oh, cool, man. Good, good. Go, you know, best of luck. Just don't go getting better than me. You know,

• 2:45:26Speaker 06

  I mean, you're like, whatever, you know, you play it off, but like I, I, I truly, truly, truly don't know how to respond to, uh,

• 2:45:37Speaker 06

  I do this because of you.

• 2:45:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:39Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? I don't, I don't know how to deal with that. I'm not saying I, nobody should. I just, I do not. I am not emotionally equipped to deal with like praise or anything like that. Like I've done some supernatural thing that you can't do. You know what I mean? Because I'm not. You could totally do this. Anyone can do it. It's just.

• 2:46:00Speaker 06

  I, and that fucking weird anomaly that did, you know, like, and lucked out somehow.

• 2:46:08Shawn Ryan?

  He didn't quit.

• 2:46:09Speaker 06

  Didn't quit. Yeah.

• 2:46:12Speaker 06

  But by that logic too, if you're saying, well, if everybody, why aren't we all, you know, like fucking big EDM mouse head wearing DJs?

• 2:46:21Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, everybody's got a gift, you know?

• 2:46:24Speaker 06

  Do you believe that?

• 2:46:25Shawn Ryan?

  I do. A hundred and fucking 10%. I believe that. I believe everybody has something that they're good at. But I think that, you know, I think it takes, I think it takes drive and dedication and time to develop it. And most people don't, they're not willing to put forth the effort. Half of them never even fucking discover their gift. Then when it's given to them and they do discover it, they're too fucking lazy to develop it.

• 2:46:50Speaker 06

  Okay. Well, that's fair. That's kind of like Schrodinger's gift though. You know what I mean?

• 2:46:55Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:46:57Speaker 06

  So I guess that's 50 50 on the argument that everybody is.

• 2:47:00Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, and then, and then there's the risk too. You know, there's the risk. They're not going to take the, a lot of people aren't going to take the risk. I mean, that's just entrepreneurship 101, right? If you're not going to take the risk.

• 2:47:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:47:11Shawn Ryan?

  Then you're not going to get the reward.

• 2:47:13Speaker 06

  Oh yeah. No, I mean, yeah, my risk was quitting at SIT. Holy shit. I quit a full-time fucking job with, you know, pretty decent benefits and stuff to just say, fuck it. I'm going to do music.

• 2:47:24Shawn Ryan?

  Nobody does that, man. Nobody does that. Very rarely.

• 2:47:28Speaker 06

  And when they do, it's not, every one of those is gonna come out. You know what I mean? Like.

• 2:47:35Shawn Ryan?

  That's why it's a risk.

• 2:47:36Speaker 06

  Yeah. Fucking something that's why the I just don't know what to say. When anyone's like, what advice can you give me as I'm just starting my journey? What, what, what advice would you give me? I'm like, dude, I do not want to lead you down.

• 2:47:51Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:52Speaker 06

  The fucking, the path to glory or the fucking, the rest of your nightmarish life, you know, like, I, I don't know, dude.

• 2:48:02Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:02Speaker 06

  Like, that's like, again, that's so heavy too. I get the lightness of the question, hey, if, if you had one piece of advice to give a musician, what would it be? I'm like, dude, this is dangerous. You know what I mean? Like, like, fuck me, quit your job and do it full time. You know what I mean? But then, you know, like.

• 2:48:19Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it's a lot of the advice, you know, that I, I, I think people just don't, some of it's so simple, you know, the advice to, to success can be so fucking simple. It's, it's shit like, trust your gut, man.

• 2:48:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:48:36Shawn Ryan?

  Fuck what everybody else is saying. Do what you want to do. Do what you believe is the right thing.

• 2:48:42Speaker 06

  Get a good lawyer.

• 2:48:44Shawn Ryan?

  Nobody does it.

• 2:48:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:48:45Shawn Ryan?

  Nobody does it. You know, but on that note, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll start digging into what you're doing now with your new companies.

• 2:48:59Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company tore me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all keep the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 2:49:10Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 2:49:13Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 2:49:16Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped going? You start, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 2:49:20Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 2:49:23Speaker 04

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 2:49:24Speaker 02

  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under seventeen, not a minute without parent.

• 2:49:33Shawn Ryan?

  I want to tell you about this business venture I've been on for about the past seven, eight months, and it's finally come to fruition. I've been hell-bent on finding the cleanest functional mushroom supplement on the planet, and that all kind of stemmed from the psychedelic treatment I did. Came out of it, got a ton of benefits, haven't had a drop of alcohol in almost two years. I'm more in the moment with my family. And that led me down researching the benefits of just everyday functional mushrooms. And I started taking some supplements, I found some coffee replacements, I even repped a brand. And, you know, it got to the point where I just wanted the finest ingredients available,

• 2:50:18Shawn Ryan?

  no matter where they come from. And it got to this point where I was just gonna start my own brand. And so we started going to trade shows and looking for the finest ingredients. And in doing that, I ran into this guy, maybe you've heard of him, his name's Laird Hamilton, and his wife Gabby Reese, and they have an entire line of supplements with all the finest ingredients. And we got to talking, turns out, they have the perfect functional mushroom supplement. It's actually called Performance Mushrooms.

• 2:50:58Shawn Ryan?

  And this has everything, it's USDA organic, it's got chaga, cordyceps, lion's mane, miyataki. This stuff is amazing for energy balance, for cognition. Look, just being honest, see a lot of people taking care of their bodies, I do not see a lot of people taking care of their brain. This is the product, guys. And so, we got to talking, and our values seemed very aligned, we're both into the functional mushrooms. And after a lot of back and forth, I am now a shareholder in the company.

• 2:51:40Shawn Ryan?

  I have a small amount of ownership and I'm just, look, I'm just really proud to be repping and be a part of the company that's making the best functional mushroom supplement on the planet. You can get this stuff at layered superfoods.com. You can use the promo code SRS, that'll get you 20% off these performance mushrooms or anything in the store. They got a ton of good stuff. Once again, that's layered superfoods.com. Use the promo code SRS. That gets you 20% off. You guys are gonna love this stuff. I guarantee it.

• 2:52:22Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Joel, we're back from the break.

• 2:52:24Speaker 06

  So much chipper after a pad of cigarette.

• 2:52:27Shawn Ryan?

  And we're getting ready to dive into some of the, some of the new ventures that you're going in outside of music. But you have a very,

• 2:52:40Shawn Ryan?

  you have a history, you have a nice legal career.

• 2:52:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, no, my lawyer does, that's for sure.

• 2:52:46Shawn Ryan?

  What?

• 2:52:47Speaker 06

  Well, I've gotten in shit, but not, not like dumb shit, like criminal or, or shit I didn't bring on. But it's just like the mouse logo was, I guess Disney had a huge problem with that. But not until like, after eight years of me actually using the mark, you know what I mean? So even the, you know, the trademark office is like, but you could have contested this a decade ago. Oh, you just waited for him to get big and now you're, now you're scared, you know what I mean? But, I mean, we're also talking about a company that's been known to sue daycares for painting their shit on their wall. You know what I mean? So, I mean, I'm all for that go get them, fuck you, don't touch my brand attitude, but that was a bit excessive.

• 2:53:32Speaker 06

  Their big point, their problem was basically confusion. They didn't want people confusing me for Mickey Mouse. That was, that was their biggest home run. You know, that, that, that was the, you know, we don't want people thinking you're, you're Mickey Mouse. And you don't want people thinking Mickey Mouse is you. And I, and basically it's like just common sense. Like, I don't think my fans confuse my brand for yours.

• 2:54:02Shawn Ryan?

  I don't think so either.

• 2:54:03Speaker 06

  I don't think so. All right. But that, but I have to, we have to prove that. So we had to do like, literally, they went out and did like, kind of like surveys and stuff like that. Like, like, kind of almost man on the street, sort of, do you know who this is? Like, well, either yeah or no, you know what I mean? And then like, do you know who this is? You know, you know, I mean, they're like, yeah. And, and they had to use that as part of the discovery process for this seven year long fucking battle.

• 2:54:28Shawn Ryan?

  That was seven years?

• 2:54:29Speaker 06

  Something like that, yeah.

• 2:54:30Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, what it was, what's it like when you get it? Would you get a cease and desist?

• 2:54:34Speaker 06

  Well, kinda. They, they, they, they, every, I think it's like five years or so. I don't, I don't actually know. I should know this. I'm, I'm really, my lawyer is going to kill me for not knowing this. Cause she makes it a point to educate me on, on IP law and all this stuff. And I, and I actually do know a lot about it, but just this one particular thing is that you need to, um, register and re-register your marks every period or something like that. So basically, um, Disney, McDonald's, whoever, right? To, they, their registration like expires after a certain amount, but they've got someone already ahead of that, you know what I mean? So that just, it's literally rolls over and everything's smooth and all the correct, uh, things are, are filed to the UPS TO or whatever.

• 2:55:18Speaker 06

  Or USPTO and, um,

• 2:55:22Speaker 06

  uh, I guess someone fell asleep at the wheel of contesting it when I renewed mine, right? And then Disney kind of tried to proactively stop me from doing that. But all the while, Disney, being as huge as they are, more lawyers than animators, you know what I mean? Uh, they, they were also asked, there were certain parts of Disney getting, asking me to do things with Disney. While this other part of Disney was preventing me from, or trying to stop me from using my mark. So they're like, no, no, true story. And this is kind of like how we got out of it to some degree was that they wanted me to score the new Fantasia.

• 2:56:08Speaker 06

  And then they wanted me to stop being Dead Mouse. Interesting. Pick one, guys. You know what I mean? It was really weird. And it was, um, it it made some textbooks over like, uh, copyright law and stuff like that. So too. So while they're trying to shut down Dead Mouse, they're also using Dead Mouse music in some of their stuff without even licensing it from me. Are you serious? Swear to God, it was a thing. And we and so we had to put a C and D back on Disney, too. So all these little like little footnotes came up in the fucking thing. And I'm like, I can't believe this is so expensive. Like, because it is to to just to perpetuate it, to keep it going, just to keep like, you gotta pay lawyers. They the Disney lawyers aren't working for free. And my lawyer is

• 2:56:52Speaker 06

  not working for free. So this just whole thing is just, they won. They won? The lawyers won. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's how it always goes. Yeah. And and we, as far as I'm allowed to say, have reached an amicable agreement where we can coexist. You know, that just, I think, like, me and Eisner should have just duked it out in a room, you know, but it didn't happen. Hey, I mean. But I remember, I actually, I really remember, I was playing, uh, I think it was Orlando, where I had to play a, I think it was a hard rock or something like that, but it was on Disney property. And this is like, right in the the press, the heat of this fucking like lawsuit, right? That's all over the fucking place. And they're like, yeah, so you're like, you're playing Disney,

• 2:57:37Speaker 06

  basically, you know, because this venue is like inside Disney World or whatever. I'm like, dude, I don't know, man, this sounds pretty sketch. Because like, I'm gonna like, what are they gonna like, walk me in in the dark room? And then, you know, Goofy's gonna come out with a fucking bat? And you know, like, I don't know, man, like, how's this gonna end? And it was just so weird. I wonder if I'm on a list. I went to Disneyland when I was like a little kid, like with the family for like a little trip thing, but I've never been since. But I heard it's pretty cool and I want to go just to see. Just to see what happens, see if you made the list. Yeah, so the Disney thing was cool. Oh, um, and I, uh, I've been in court with Cheer

• 2:58:21Speaker 06

  Bear from the Care Bears for, uh, probably another seven or eight years. What? Yeah, yeah. No, cartoon characters only, man. Yeah. I've only ever been in court with cartoon characters, three of them. Mickey, Mouse, and Cheer Bear, and a cartoon cat named Meowingtons. Hold on, what's, what's the, what's the Care Bear one about? Hey, you like that one, eh? Yeah. So, uh, I, um, when I first started, uh, publishing my music immediately after the BSOD stuff, right? So that like Faxing Berlin, like that old stuff. I, I signed to this record label called Play Records in, uh, Toronto, but like, I, I didn't have a lawyer, I didn't have anything, and I was just kind of basically like, kind of hauled

• 2:59:05Speaker 06

  into a kitchen, basically. I said, oh, you know, I'm just signing this, I'll be your manager, and I'm like, you know what? They're paying my rent. All right. Sign this bullshit. Go, start putting music out. And then, and then I outgrew, you know what I mean? I outgrew the label. And it wasn't like, there was nothing nefarious, or, or, or there was no friction between us towards that part, because it was just so common sense, so obvious, right? Like, I'm doing, I have the potential to do so much business, I think, with this, the Mouse brand now, that you can't handle it. You're just this, like, the basement, literal basement label that, like, you can't, you, you won't be able to book me gigs, you won't be able to, like, you know, keep up with distribution

• 2:59:49Speaker 06

  and all this stuff. And it's just, it's just like, you're just not competent enough to handle that. So, I'm gonna go and sign with another, a new, uh, label out in the UK, right? Which I think was, um, Club Class at the time, and, um, who's my manager still to this day, Dean Wilson. And, uh, I had a conversation, I'll never forget with this lady. Oh, so the lady, she was the voice of Cheer Bear from the Care Bears. And her husband, um, uh- Basically kind of had a lot to do with Alvana, the studio that did like um he walks the cartoon and Star Wars and Rock and Rule and those old vintage cartoons from Canada, you probably

• 3:00:32Speaker 06

  didn't know them, but there it was a thing. It was kind of a big deal. And so they made a lot of money doing that. And she was kind of like a trophy wife that was like in the basement, eh, run a record label, you know. So that's, that's how it came to be, right?

• 3:00:46Speaker 06

  And so, uh, again, like I said, it got to this point where I was like, I'm gonna go do this. And she she got really mad at that. Like, because I'm just like, look, it's just, I don't hate you. And this isn't anything personal. It's just like, honestly, like, I will, I will, I will starve in this little pond. I need to go and fucking explore some other shit. And she just got fucking nasty. She was just like, well, and my favorite quote from me, you go do whatever you want. And I'm like, okay, sweet. Thanks. Uh, she goes, you know, you're not Tiesto. What the hell? She said that. And I went, hmm, you know what, like, you know, and maybe at the time, it might have hurt my feelings a little bit, but now I just, I love to say, you're right. I'm fucking Deadmau5.

• 3:01:33Speaker 06

  So, anyway, it turned into this petty shit where it was just like, you know, go do whatever you want, you know, kind of like verbally said that to me. And I'm like, I guess that's all I need. You know what I mean? So I go to Dean and I I I disclosed everything to Dean. I said, well, Dean, I did, I do have this thing with this like small label and whatever. And he's like, whatever, we'll work that out, you know, like me, we're gonna fucking shop you to EMI, you know, like they can buy and sell them in a fucking minutes or whatever. It's all good. We'll work it out. And I'm like, okay, but just, you know, like, I like transparency. I'm not like a shitty person business wise. So let's just fucking do this thing. And, and, and we did for two, three years. Uh, you know, we, we

• 3:02:14Speaker 06

  developed Deadmau5 and we started Mousetrap and then, and then we signed to EMI and I got some big fucking swinging dick lawyers out in the UK, Sheridans, they represented the Beatles and Pink Floyd and all those guys. And I'm like, okay, this is good. The path to righteousness. Finally, a team big enough to, you know, fucking do my shit. Then, you know, some music comes out and I start making a lot more noise. And then all of a sudden, I'm getting booked. And I'm like, yes. So I'm playing like Ministry of Sound and Government and all these international nightclubs and. Of course, this gets back to Mel, right? And fucking Ghost and stuff comes out and it's a big hit. And and then Mel's like,

• 3:02:52Speaker 06

  I got this contract that says I, you know what I mean? I'm like, oh, you fucking kidding me? Okay, whatever, fine, I'll entertain it. You know what I mean? So then, then the lawyers started coming out and it's like, and and she retains the rights to a lot of my early stuff that I made in that basement. You know what I mean? So it's been really petty. Yeah. You know, so it's like she'll she'll release these things every year. That's like, because she can. Yeah. You know what I mean? But I can also be a deck. I can I can refuse any remixes, any remakes, you know, and any kind of like derivative works of those. I can shut those down because they need my approval, you know? Not all is lost, but I just, there are certain pieces of my earlier catalog that I just can't touch.

• 3:03:36Speaker 06

  Because that'll make her a dime. Damn. You know what I mean? I'm like, that sucks, but that's the business, honestly. So like, I'm not even that mad because you gotta, you gotta get fucked a few times. You know what I mean? To learn a thing, you can't just,

• 3:03:50Speaker 06

  you know what I mean? And then be totally fine. Yeah. Like TLC and Hammer and all these people, you know what I mean? Like, no one's immune to it, you know? So like, that's, that's maybe not advice for a beginning musician. But like, if you, if you really want to be active in this business and and be have a journey in there, you're gonna get fucked. Yeah, that's not, it's not, it's not if, it's who and when, you know? And and hopefully not so bad. And that honestly wasn't even that bad. I mean, it's just annoying and it's just a part of my story. But like, it's just, I just wish it wasn't, but oh, well. Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, and then, um, so that's, that's Cheerbear, Mickey, and then Meowington's, a cartoon cat.

• 3:04:35Speaker 06

  Uh, I had a cat named Meowington's who just recently passed away. Uh, lived to be about 16 and and that cat I bought like, um, I I adopted him from the Humane Society in Toronto and it's just been my bro. You know what I mean? Like my sanity from. The very start, like sixteen years, you know what I mean? Oh, wow. So this cat's seen some shit, you know? But of course, he doesn't travel with me. He just kind of hangs out the house. But he's just a little, you know, the little floor duster that comes and greets me when I get home. And you know what I mean? He's like my bro, you know, like, so that was, I love that cat. And so like, I'd share a lot of that cats, like, kind of stuff with everybody. And it's like, the cat had fans, right?

• 3:05:19Speaker 06

  So Meowington's was like a big part of my brand. Like, I put them on album covers and we made Meowington's merch and stuff for kids and stuff like that. And cat toys and all this dumb shit, right? And it was just like, Meowington's was part of Deadmau5. It's just like Deadmau5 and Meowington's, you know? It's like, of course I know his cat, you know what I mean? So, because I really like advocated the cat and he was just part of the crew. So, um, uh, there was a cat toy company named Meowington's. Like, that just kind of came out of nowhere and then said, no, no, not happening. You gotta, you gotta cut out all that your Meowington's part. I don't even, I can't even remember what their claim was or something like that. I think it was like a, probably like a copyright thing.

• 3:06:04Speaker 06

  But I mean, I, I had all the marks. I owned, you know, all the Meowington's stuff. And, you know, we, you could have contested this. And, and, you know, it was some startup cat toy fucking bullshit in Toronto. And my lawyer, God bless her, she is a fucking genius. So this, this, this Meowington's company was from Toronto, which I thought, oh, funny that. You know what I mean? Like, okay, so they're neighbors. Um, I got deposed, that's how stupid that was. So, um, uh, by, you know, a company run by like a twenty something year old girl, you know, that does this thing and I have to go sit through a deposition?

• 3:06:48Speaker 06

  Like, I'm like, dude, this is like something you do when you like. Kill somebody, defraud someone of millions, uh, I don't know, embezzle company money or something serious, you know what I mean? But this, they just want the name Meowingtons. And I'm like, but that's my cat's name. And you know what I mean? It's like, it's nothing personal, dude. I'm not, I'm not selling cat treats. I swear. I could, but I, that's a good idea, but I, but I won't, you know, instead of just some coexist fuck you, you know, they just decide to take it in and make it a big deal. So, uh, it was my first deposition. So I was kind of like, I didn't know, like, I didn't even get to pose for the Disney thing, right? So I'm thinking like, this is gonna be weird.

• 3:07:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:07:33Speaker 06

  Right? So I'm in this deposition. My fucking lawyer's here and this is fucking their lawyer is doing the fucking, asking me all these goddamn fucking questions, right? Like it, like, not like you, but like, I mean, just like asking me my life story, right? And he's like, and then I, and he's like, so when did you start making me that? You know, and I'm like, oh, and I'm just like spilling my guts, right? Like, I'm just telling the facts, right? And then, and then we get a timeout, go into this other room, right? And then my lawyer's assistant is yelling at me. She goes, you, you, why are you blabbing? Why are you talking so much? I'm like, fucking, cause I didn't do anything wrong. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, whatever. You're just asking. She goes, okay. Well, you just

• 3:08:15Speaker 06

  got to be, be, be. I'm like, all right, whatever. Get back into the deposition. I sit down and then, and then he's like, uh, it started getting weird. He goes, uh, did you, did you in fact date Kat Von D? And I'm like,

• 3:08:37Speaker 06

  Google it. You know, yes. You know what I mean? Like, why? He goes, did you know that Kat Von D was very good friends with Lemmy from Motorhead?

• 3:08:48Speaker 06

  Yes. What, what, where, what the fuck are you, what are you doing, dude? Yeah. You know, and then he goes, did you know that Lemmy had a cat? And I'm like, no, actually, I didn't know that. That's pretty funny. Uh, cool story, bro. Do you know the cat's name? I'm like, no.

• 3:09:13Speaker 06

  You're gonna tell me or do I have to Google it like it just turned into like a big joke? Cause this guy is like, he's like, I got him. I got him with this. And I'm like, it's sitting there. He's like, did you know the cat's name was Meowington's?

• 3:09:26Speaker 06

  I'm like, no.

• 3:09:29Speaker 06

  He's like, okay. Next question. You know what I mean? Then he starts asking all these stupid fucking questions and my lawyer is like, shut up, you fucking idiot. You know what I mean? And then I'm like, holy shit. Like you can't say that. Just go, stop gaslighting my client. You fucking piece of shit. You're a piece of shit. And then the stenographer lady is like on fucking fire. My lawyer is just killing her like, and I'm like, oh my God, this is madness. Like, is this gonna be my life? Is this a taste of like,

• 3:09:59Speaker 06

  you know, like any weird copyright case that I run into with music or something like that? And it turns out it was, and I was like, oh dude, this is the worst. This is so TV weirdness. Stop it. So then, and then my lawyer comes out for our turn to talk or whatever. And she just throws down this fucking envelope, like basically saying, okay, well, hey, Emma, is this your boyfriend? And she's like, yeah, is your boyfriend a DJ? And then she goes, yeah. And you guys don't know who Dead Mouse is? And she goes, no, not really. And then everyone's like, kind of rolling their eyes, but okay, sure. That's, that's your fucking claim. That's your claim. Cause you can't disprove that. Yeah. They know me, you know, but fucking every fucking millennial in Toronto knew who I was at that time.

• 3:10:44Speaker 06

  Right? And, and so, uh, so, okay. Yeah. So, so basically you, she's just trying to say, you didn't name your company. Cause Dead Mouse had a cat named fucking Meowington's. And now you're just here to be a bitch, basically. Right? Yeah. And so that was. Kind of the cell. And then she's like, yeah, no, no, we didn't know who he was. And she goes, is that your boyfriend? She's like, yeah, how long you been with him? She's like, oh, like 10 years, whatever. She, your boyfriend's a DJ, right? And she's like, yeah, he plays a da, da, da. Okay. And your DJ boyfriend doesn't know who Dead Mouse is. And she's like, no. And she found a fucking picture of her boyfriend DJing and she zooms in on the fucking CD player. My fucking name right across that. And then it just kind of went away.

• 3:11:26Speaker 06

  It was so fucked. I was like, Dina, you fucking madman. Like, holy shit. You are the best. I was like, oh, my God. It's like, you didn't try? Like, this is amazing. Still my lawyer. That's awesome. How I met her was even good. How'd you meet her? Dina? Yeah. Oh, my God. I was on a tour bus with Tommy Lee. Tommy Lee had a little person on the bus because it was, he was like, kind of part of this band, of this troupe of little people that, uh, were part of the Carnival of Sins theme tour. And, uh, his name is Mike McGarrett, Mighty Mike, they called him. And Mike was a little shit talker, heavy drinking little guy who just loved to fight everybody.

• 3:12:09Speaker 06

  And one time on the bus, he was just getting out of control and we were all like, kind of little sauce too. And we're fucking around. So we picked him up. And we hung him out of the bus window and we were in a parking lot, like a mall of the America kind of thing, like just slowly driving around. We told the bus driver guy, we're like, hey, do a couple of fucking laps, whatever. And we were holding Mike out of the bus window. Like by his feet and we're laughing our asses off and fucking whatever. We weren't gonna fucking kill him or anything, but then we just kind of pulled him back in. Well, it turns out, somebody saw this and then, um, called the police. So the police start kind of showing up. This is like when I'm like, this was that, that first tour, right? Basically after we all got friendly and shit. And, um,

• 3:12:55Speaker 06

  Uh, Tony, Tommy's assistant's like, fucking guys, I don't know what fucking just go pack it up and close the fucking window and don't fucking come out because we we saw the blue lights and all this shit. We're like, oh, like, what, what, what happened? What did we do? You know, like, we're not doing anything like, hmm. So Tony's like, fuck, and Tony's on the phone with Tommy's lawyer, like, dealing with shit. And then for whatever thing, he made it go away. And it turns out that somebody thought we were hanging a child out of the the window of the bus and called the police as as they should. And, uh, yeah. But we then, Tony had to basically say, look, it's not a child, but either way,

• 3:13:40Speaker 06

  it won't happen again. Yeah. It's Tommy Lee's in the back. Just let's not make this a thing. And I guess the cops were cool with it and laughed. And, uh, they had talked to the lawyer and stuff and it all went away. And that was that. That was business as usual. Like, that was just pretty funny thing. But but what I what made that funny? Is, uh, about 10 years later, I, uh, was in a, I was going into a lawyer's office. I was getting a new lawyer. And, uh, they tell me her name's Dina. She's she wraps all these people. She's like a great lawyer and all this stuff. And you go meet her, say hi, and and deal with some unrelated, like, other, she's not my lawyer, but I still had to deal with her kind of shit.

• 3:14:21Speaker 06

  Uh, so I go up to meet her and, uh, she's cool. She's sitting there. I said, oh, hi. And I'm like, hi, hi, how you doing? And she goes, oh, yeah. So you're, uh, you're Joel. And I'm like, yeah, Joel. She goes, Joel Zimmerman. Yeah, yeah, cool. She goes, oh, cool. So what do you do? You like, you do me? She really didn't know. And, uh, she was like, oh, it's like, like DJ stuff. She goes, oh, okay. And she goes, oh, what's your DJ name? And I go Dead Mouse. And she just fucking, just fucking, just changed people on in front of me. And she was like,

• 3:14:53Speaker 06

  You, it was you. And I was like, oh shit, like I'm terrified because like I know Dina, like I knew her by reputation and well, the havoc she's done and the fucking legal business. Like of all the lawyers you want to not like you, she's the last. And I was like, oh my God, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done. And I'm just like sinking in my chair and she's like pointing her finger and she's like, it was you. And I'm thinking like, what, what? Like a dude's gotta have like some weird person or something or had me confused with someone else. I'm like, me? What? What? What? What? What did I do? She goes, you were hanging Mike out of the tour bus with Tommy and even back in it because she was the lawyer on the phone.

• 3:15:34Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 3:15:35Speaker 06

  When Tony had to call because she was representing Tommy at the fucking time. And, and we had a laugh.

• 3:15:43Shawn Ryan?

  You're like, well, now you know what you're in for.

• 3:15:45Speaker 06

  Oh, there you go.

• 3:15:48Speaker 06

  She goes, every time I hear your name, it's always you and Tommy and even Tommy. It's a, we're always getting in shit for something, but it was really funny. And then, um,

• 3:15:57Shawn Ryan?

  Did she have the retainer?

• 3:15:58Speaker 06

  I retained her. That's my lawyer. Yeah. And she's, she charges me hourly.

• 3:16:03Shawn Ryan?

  Right on, man.

• 3:16:04Speaker 06

  No retainer.

• 3:16:06Shawn Ryan?

  Well, there's another one too, that I want to talk about. The Ferrari.

• 3:16:10Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. There's not really much to it other than Ferrari just really got bent out of shape that I wrapped the Nyan Cat stuff on their car, which is funny because you know who had a bigger case than Ferrari? The guy that owned Yankat.

• 3:16:26Speaker 06

  And he was chill as fuck. He was like, oh, that's funny. And I'm like, cool, right? He's like, hell yeah. And I was like, okay, good. Cause he was actually the only one that could have done something, really. Ferrari just kind of like sent us a C and D on it. And we're like, how do you C and D a Ferrari? You know what I mean? Like you buy it, it's your property kind of thing, but technically not. There's some weird stuff with Ferrari. Whereas if you, even if you buy one, it's like they, they own a, Piece of like IP of it, you know what I mean? Not, not the vehicle, of course, or the, you know, they can't come and take it. But they can send a C and D over or, or future sales and stuff like that. They can prevent you from buying a new one. Oh, okay.

• 3:17:07Speaker 06

  Uh, like, like MSO or not MSO Ferrari wishes they had an MSO. Um, they, uh, like the, if you were on a list for a LaFerrari, I was definitely taken off. So that was part of it. And it was just kind of like a dramatic thing. Because they, they, um, they sued a, uh, they sued an Italian company called, uh, Piero, Piero Sagni, or I, I dude, I'm butchering this. Piero Sanga, Sangu, I don't know. What means pure blood in Italian, right? Okay. Uh, so that, that Ferrari was making a car called that, whatever it is.

• 3:17:46Speaker 06

  And, um, uh, there was a charity that was donated blood by the same name and they sued the charity. Oh, man. Yeah. Cause they wanted to name their fucking car that. Damn. Yeah. So then I switched over to McLaren and they were way more fun.

• 3:18:08Speaker 06

  But wait, wasn't there a Lambo? Didn't a Lambo? Lambo came in, Lambo was like, oh, get a hurricane. You can do whatever you want to it. And I was like, okay. So I kind of bought it as a punchline. And, um, I, well, I wanted to try it out anyway, cause it was the new shit hot Lambo, right? Um, but I, I just couldn't get behind it. Cause it was like four wheel drive.

• 3:18:27Speaker 06

  I mean, it got off the line quick, but I like to get off the line sideways. You know what I mean? I'm not like A to B. Ooh, you know what? Because you get a Bugatti for that, you know? Like if you like driving fast in a straight line, but I don't, I like to get all squirrely and weird. Yeah. And you just can't do that four wheel drive really. And you couldn't disengage it. You couldn't shut it off. It's all just part of it. So I was like, yeah, I mean, it's a fun blast. Loud car, but. Did you do an Uber? In a McLaren, yeah, six fifty.

• 3:18:57Shawn Ryan?

  What the hell like, where did that come from?

• 3:18:59Speaker 06

  Uh, I just thought it'd be really cool like, cause I always, I, I, I always Uber and I, I was kind of friends with one of the guys that like founded the company and stuff. And I thought, I go, you know what's really funny? Every time, cause, cause they drive their own cars, right? And he's like, yeah, you can drive whatever you want. Doesn't matter, you know? And I was like, oh, cool. And I'm like, well, how come nobody Uber's like a really cool car, like a fucking Maybach or something, or Ferrari or whatever. And he's like, well, they could. And I was like, I should do that. And he was like, can we film it? And I was like, yeah, sure. So like, it's like be an Uber for a day.

• 3:19:34Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's get into some of the stuff that you're doing today.

• 3:19:38Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, I'm doing a, a lot of like, um, okay. So there's a, I'm, I'm really big with like GPU tech, which is like basically everything that kind of runs on a GPU, but just not AI. That's the one thing I've never really gravitated towards because I just, not that I like, I don't think I could understand it ever fully, like programmatically and stuff like that. It's just like if, but if I were to, I know I would deep dive on that and that would consume a couple of years. So I had a couple of years. It was our blessed year of 2020, 2021, you know? So two years, no shows. All right. Um, let's play with game engines.

• 3:20:20Speaker 06

  So, uh, Epic Games, the, the, the basically the company that makes Fortnite, as they're mostly known, um, they make an engine, uh, which is like basically the backbone of a video game, everything that runs in the background. Uh, it's kind of like the, the suite of tools that is used to make a video game, right? There are many engines, there are, you know, um, but there are two. Pretty big engines, one being Unity, one being Unreal. Because they're publicly accessible, they're free. Unreal, also their engine, they post all the code for it online, so it's open source.

• 3:21:02Speaker 06

  So if you want to modify the engine however you want, you can do that too and recompile it and make your own. You know, so it's just been a really, really great thing as it should be with billion dollar companies. You know, is where they share their technology so that people can do derivative works of it. Albeit, you gotta pay a license, once your shit gets selling. And they have a thing where it's like, oh, I'm not sure how accurate it is now, but it's probably very similar. It's like, you can use our engine as long as you do under a million dollars of sales. So if I sell 800,000 copies of my $1 video game, I made 800,000. But I think it's after a million, they're like, they do 8% or something like that.

• 3:21:46Speaker 06

  I don't know, don't quote me on that, but it's something fair. You know what I mean? And totally reasonable, you know what I mean? So it's a great thing to learn on. And that particular engine, Unreal Engine, has evolved into such a big set of tools that you could do virtual reality experiences, you could do video games, you could do DMX pre-visualization software. You know, all sorts of crazy post-production video rendering tools.

• 3:22:18Speaker 06

  Most notably, what's that Star Trek guy? The bounty hunter with the little baby Yoda, what's the name of that show? Shit dude, I don't know. I'm such a huge Star Trek fan. What is it? Mandalorian, there you go. Yeah, so the Mandalorian was actually a lot of that used that video game engine. So they would do these XR volumes, basically. So they would have these LED screens that ran Unreal Engine scenery, rendering real time. So as the camera moved, you know, the background would move in relation with the camera. So that's like a video game engine, creating those live, real-time effects, which is insane. So that just goes to show you how high you could, how of a level you could take those production tools.

• 3:23:02Speaker 06

  They're using them in major motion pictures and stuff like that. So it's badass toolset. So I'm working on a framework. Which is a toolset within the toolset of a realtime visualization software for what I do. Meaning that I could build my stage with the cube and all the LED panels and all the lights and all their beams and every little fucking thing that turns on and off on my stage. I can build it in a, an environment that you can walk around, No kidding. Look at, play with and see and I can previs my show because the other alternative, the reason I do that is because I have to go rent a warehouse, 20,000 square feet that has 700 amps.

• 3:23:47Speaker 06

  And then we have to build it, you know, to test it, to previs it, to make sure it looks good. Cause you, cer- certain previs softwares are only so good. You know what I mean? You want to really like, get it in a room, turn off the lights, fog the lights and see how it really looks. How it would look in a venue and how it would behave. Because again, you know, it's a simulation, but then there's like motor times and light colors and stuff like that, that you just can't really simulate properly. But I have found with Unreal Engine, I can simulate all that shit. So I just saved $20,000 a day, you know, renting a warehouse and having 12 crew people and 80 computers. You know what I mean? By being able to previsit in this suite.

• 3:24:32Speaker 06

  So I'm thinking like, okay, well, that's good for me. You know, how can I make this good for everybody, right? So I'm building a kind of framework that can be a virtual show, so to speak, right? Now let's, I'm, I'm not putting all my bets on that, you know, virtual shows are the future. They're not, they're a thing, but they're not the future. They're not gonna replace shit. Nothing will ever replace you getting in a car with your friends and driving and getting lost and fucking puking in a fucking porta potty and you know what I mean? Like, and you know what I mean? And just, I mean, that's cool though. That's the event. You know what I mean? That's the shit, those are the memories you take home from a show. You know what I mean?

• 3:25:15Speaker 06

  Not fucking what he did, not what he played, maybe a couple of songs and that shit. But honestly dude, my concert memories are like just the crazy shit that happened. Getting there, being there, you know what I mean? And then out, you were just kind of like a passive purveyor ringleader at that time. You know what I mean? It's like going to the circus and yelling at someone for like looking at, you know,

• 3:25:39Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:25:40Speaker 06

  where they're not supposed to at a certain time. It's stupid, right? So VR will never replace that. But it would be cool to have that kind of synchronization of that to a real show at the same time. Just cause like shit, man, fucking Deadmau5, fucking Leechin' us, seventy dollars a fucking ticket. I mean, he's no Taylor Swift, but fuck, man, I think I'll just sit this one out or be at home. Or I'm not flying 5,000 miles to catch this one show I want to fucking catch. But I would gladly put a Daultier in a fucking machine and, you know, kind of watch it as a video game kind of thing as it unfolds, kind of thing.

• 3:26:21Shawn Ryan?

  And this, this, this also shows, I mean, this is, this is everything from your angle too as well. Am I correct?

• 3:26:29Speaker 06

  No, no, you can, you can freely navigate it like you would a video game.

• 3:26:33Shawn Ryan?

  Well, what I mean is they could get, they could get, what, what is it? A simulation? Would you call it a simulation?

• 3:26:44Speaker 06

  It's a hard, it's a hard thing to describe.

• 3:26:47Shawn Ryan?

  If it's a simulation, I mean, what I'm, I guess what I'm getting at is they can, they can also get your perspective from up on the stage.

• 3:26:55Speaker 06

  If, if, if they moved and positioned themselves up that way, if I designed it that way, yes. Yeah, I could.

• 3:27:01Shawn Ryan?

  That's pretty cool.

• 3:27:02Speaker 06

  I could, but the, but the big challenge for me on that is it's not just creating like, you know, a video game environment of my stage that does it. It's, it's the cross-communication protocols that need to happen in real time that can be interchangeable between the two things. One being the reality that I'm on this fucking cube. And then we have this like dark fiber or however we're fucking doing it to go to servers, to distribute to thousands of other clients that same information. So they're all doing the same thing at the same time. So everyone's kind of having that similar experience.

• 3:27:33Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:27:33Speaker 06

  Like, like everybody that goes to the show, they have, they don't have the same experience. Even though they're all at the same venue, no, you can't possibly have the same experience as someone else. Someone, someone loves it, someone hates it, someone's fucking, you know what I mean? Like it's just whatever. But, but it's, there are shared points of, you know, information that come from the stage to the crowd that. That can be assimilated Yeah. Out to a video game type engine. How close is this to being, is it ready? You know, not even fucking close. It's, uh, cause it's just me, you know, and, and again, like I'm, I'm no fucking, like, I don't think I'm a genius. I, I,

• 3:28:13Speaker 06

  I'll admit, uh, and I'll, and I'll do this sometimes when it comes to like, I'm a good generalist. I can pick up on tech really quick, uh, because I grew up with it and I understand it and, and, and the ones that I've chosen to deep dive tend to be, have a common root of a new technology that comes out. So when a new technology comes out, I could say, oh, I understand how like actually 25% of this works, you know? Or, or even 50 or 75 and, but here's the mystery shit. I gotta take some time on that, but it's all very similar to how this works or this works. You know what I mean? So, um, when I'm, of course, when I've been learning to make music and software and stuff like that, I, I didn't know shit about like

• 3:28:57Speaker 06

  stage lighting and design and all that stuff too. But as soon as I got put in that environment, when it came time to like, when I got big enough, I could start like, you know, taking time with the F O H guys to say, this is how the show's gonna look. I, I, oh, you guys are using computers. Okay. That's a start. I know how a computer works. Let's start from there. Okay. Oh, this is just like MIDI data. Oh, okay. Cause MIDI is, you know, this protocol that is, was invented. Well, it's, it's the deeper story than this MIDI nerd's gonna be. Well, actually, um, fucking, let's just say MIDI was invented for like, you know, musical, uh, for a computer to talk to a music instrument, right?

• 3:29:37Speaker 06

  And now there's a protocol called DMX, uh, like it's a very basic protocol that uses a computer to talk to a moving light to say, hey, do this, do this, do this, change color, turn on, use your beam, don't use the beam. It's, it, the protocols are almost identical, like. Because MIDI was actually derived from DMX, but anyway, very similar protocol. So when I'm looking at this, like what anyone else would look at this like computer screen and see all this alien code everywhere. They're like, ah, this is how they control the lights. Holy shit. How do you know all this? I see it as, oh, that's cool. It's fucking four bit MIDI. Let's fucking do this and this and this and that. Okay, cool. And then I get more hands on to it.

• 3:30:18Speaker 06

  Of course I learn shit because DMX is pretty old school. Now they use like ARTNET and fucking SACN and all the fucking acronyms that you can think of for like all this new light tech and protocol and stuff like that. So I'm like, I, I pick up on it super quick, right? Do you think you'll do this with all, all your shows? Or just particular ones? Just particular ones because a lot of them, we call them throw and go shows. Whereas like I'll show up to a venue and it's just like, it's their festival, it's their production and everything's already done. I just have to bring what little gear I need on just what I use. And then I'm off, another guy's on, you know what I mean? But I, I do run a festival in Toronto called VELD Music Festival. Well, I don't run it, but I like, I own it.

• 3:31:03Speaker 06

  Yeah. A piece of it and so does Inc., Talal and Charles Cabuth and Charles Felice is our, our business partners in that venture. And we're on our, we just did our 10th year. Holy shit. So every year we go to Downsview and book all these festivals and stuff, or these festival acts like, you know, Martin Garrix and DJ so and so and this and that. And sometimes me, I'll play it sometimes for funsies. But like shit like that, I get a little more control over obviously because we, we are the production company that supplies all this stuff too. So, um, and that's another thing that I love to do is actually just, even if it's not for me.

• 3:31:45Speaker 06

  I've, I've done Dylan Francis's rigs a few times, other, there are probably DJs out there that hate my fucking ass. Cause I'm such a prick or ba, ba, ba, ba, or just, I just not into what they're into. But I probably designed their stage and rented them product. So I, but that's cool. That's just business. They don't need to know it's Dead Mouse's company. So I won't tell you the name, but I do own a large production company in Chicago where we supply a lot of LED products, stage design, lights, all that shit for big festivals and solo acts and stuff like that. We ran our shit out to like. Motley Crue, the fucking Dolphins, the fucking, um.

• 3:32:28Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man, all kinds of different.

• 3:32:30Speaker 06

  We did them recently.

• 3:32:31Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 3:32:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:32:33Shawn Ryan?

  It's everywhere.

• 3:32:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, because actually how it started was I actually ended up realizing it was cheaper to buy some of the stage backline that we were using on like my first couple of tours than it was to rent from V E R or P R G or any of those other companies. So I just kept accumulating all this really like good staging equipment. And then when the tour was over, we're like, wow, we should start a company and rent this shit out like they do. And so that's what we do. So now I've got, I think we have over nine hundred L E D panels. Uh, please, six hundred fixtures easily. Uh, trust backline. We got a whole staff of twelve people that work in that warehouse that shall not be named and, uh,

• 3:33:18Speaker 06

  yeah, they just design stages and build stuff and we supply it for my shows whenever I need it. And, um, anyone else who, who needs a?

• 3:33:28Shawn Ryan?

  Quite the businessman and innovator.

• 3:33:30Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, that was just kind of common sense because we didn't know what to do with all this fucking product. We were fucking schlepping around and storing, right?

• 3:33:38Shawn Ryan?

  Well, there's a lot of DJs out there.

• 3:33:41Speaker 06

  I've had it. That's why I met P.

• 3:33:42Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know if it's that common. I common sense you're talking about.

• 3:33:46Speaker 06

  What?

• 3:33:47Shawn Ryan?

  I've, I've given you props. There's a lot of other DJs out there who aren't doing this.

• 3:33:51Speaker 06

  Oh, well, but, you know, they might not need to, you know, like, I'm not, everyone seems to think I have this like huge grudge with like, you know, other like pop DJs that go in and do a thing, you know what I mean? But I mean, honestly, if your head is in the game that you just want to go in, make a lot of fucking money, get the fuck out.

• 3:34:11Speaker 06

  Good job. I mean, it's not for me. Yes, I'm, I'm in it like just because I like the challenges and I like developing other stuff, not just like, I like the challenge of being dead mouse and I want to be dead mouse. I'm totally like at peace with this being like my sunset years. Like I'm forty fucking two, you know, like that's not far off from fifty and.

• 3:34:31Speaker 06

  You think I'm gonna be wearing fucking mouth head at fucking fifty, you know, like hanging under the dream, you know, no, I'm probably, I'll be in the space, but I just, you know, I won't be as mousy.

• 3:34:42Shawn Ryan?

  You're evolving.

• 3:34:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'll just, I'll be a designer, I'll do whatever, I'll go like, I'll go Maynard, make wine, I don't fucking know. His wine's pretty good. He's serious about his fucking wine.

• 3:34:57Shawn Ryan?

  Do you, uh, do you believe in manifestation?

• 3:35:00Speaker 06

  No, I mean, I, I don't, I don't overthink shit like that.

• 3:35:05Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:35:05Speaker 06

  I can't get my head around it, like the, like the secret shit, like I'm just gonna secret shit into my life, I don't know. I, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not as whimsical and faithful to things I don't get, you know what I mean, like, like, I cannot, I cannot wrap my head around religion.

• 3:35:24Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:35:26Speaker 06

  You know, just because numbers don't work for me.

• 3:35:28Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 3:35:29Speaker 06

  You know what I mean, it has nothing to do with like how that affects social political stuff, which it does unfortunately, but just as like, if you stripped all that shit away too, this is another reason to fucking hate it or dislike it or not be a part of it. Even just like if it was holistically like benign to everything else that it affected, I still wouldn't buy into it.

• 3:35:48Shawn Ryan?

  Do you, do you believe in a higher power?

• 3:35:52Speaker 06

  No.

• 3:35:53Shawn Ryan?

  No?

• 3:35:53Speaker 06

  No.

• 3:35:54Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think happens when you die?

• 3:35:55Speaker 06

  Well, I want to say nothing, but then, then that brings in the argument of, oh, so nothing is the great creator and where do you go when you die and you go to the well nothing, oh, so you're reunited with your creator, fuck you, you fucking cabbages, but you know what I mean, it's just, it's, it's a paradox, it's, it's, what do I, what do I hope? I'll, I'll tell you what I hope doesn't fucking happen, okay? I, I, I hope I don't go to heaven and I have to fucking stand in front of some fucking dude and get psychoanalyzed before I'm allowed in or not. I hope that doesn't happen because I'm gonna fuck that up. I hope that I don't go into a, a dream state.

• 3:36:36Speaker 06

  And have a dream.

• 3:36:37Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 3:36:38Speaker 06

  Cause my dreams are fucked up, you know, and I wake up thinking like, I wake up from nightmares like all the time going, huh. You know what I mean? I God, I hope that's not what it's like when you die. Cause that was, it was weird. You know what I mean? I don't really have great dreams. I, I can't remember the last good dream I've had. So all my dreams are really like weird, not like fucking weird, but like. Sometimes I dream that like I've committed some god awful like crime, like I killed someone or something and I'm, I'm running away from everything. I don't know what that means. And please, I'm not leaving it open for interpretation. So.

• 3:37:17Speaker 06

  I always have a dream that like I'm, I'm being persecuted for something and I'm on the run or I'm not. And then I'm like. I'm eating my neighbor. You know what I mean? Like it's weird shit dreams. You know what I mean? So like, I hope that doesn't happen.

• 3:37:30Shawn Ryan?

  I never know where to hide the body. Actually I do know where.

• 3:37:34Speaker 06

  I know exactly where I'm hiding my.

• 3:37:35Shawn Ryan?

  But, uh, but in the dream, I never know where to hide the body. It becomes this big.

• 3:37:40Speaker 06

  Oh, I don't even deal with the body.

• 3:37:42Shawn Ryan?

  You don't? You just, you're just like, fuck it. I'm out.

• 3:37:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:37:44Shawn Ryan?

  I'm always, do you ever have the dream where your buddy comes up to you who killed somebody and then you get involved hiding the body?

• 3:37:52Speaker 06

  No, no, I don't think I've ever had.

• 3:37:54Shawn Ryan?

  Oh man, I have that dream all the time.

• 3:37:57Speaker 06

  Really?

• 3:37:58Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Then I help him hide it. Then I'm like, fuck. Now we're all in deep shit.

• 3:38:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, I never get caught though. So that's good.

• 3:38:06Shawn Ryan?

  Me neither.

• 3:38:06Speaker 06

  But it's just the paranoia, the feeling of, oh God, what have I done? What have I done?

• 3:38:12Speaker 06

  That, that, that's the unsettling part. And then I, I wake up thinking, why do I dream this? Oh, you know why? You know why I dream this? Cause there's a fucking channel in America that I'm like absolutely obsessed with called a, what, Home Life Network? And all they play is forensic files. Like nonstop, HLN forensic files, uh, Texas here, they have the four seasons everywhere, right? Just forensic files on repeat and I, I just, I watch it all the fuck. That's exactly why.

• 3:38:38Shawn Ryan?

  Do you, do you ever watch? I can't even believe I'm about to say this. Do you ever, do you ever?

• 3:38:44Speaker 06

  Fuck, yeah.

• 3:38:45Shawn Ryan?

  No, no, no. It's, it is the dumbest shit. Do you ever watch this fucking show, Love is Blind?

• 3:38:53Speaker 06

  No.

• 3:38:53Shawn Ryan?

  Oh my God, you gotta watch this.

• 3:38:55Speaker 06

  No, I can't. I can't, I can't watch reality.

• 3:38:58Shawn Ryan?

  It's, it's, it's.

• 3:39:01Shawn Ryan?

  It's fascinating.

• 3:39:02Speaker 06

  Well, you know, they cast like.

• 3:39:05Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, I'd love to. They should make a show of them casting these people.

• 3:39:09Speaker 06

  What?

• 3:39:10Shawn Ryan?

  They should make a show of them casting these people.

• 3:39:11Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 3:39:14Speaker 06

  Dude, American TV is just weird.

• 3:39:17Shawn Ryan?

  Well.

• 3:39:17Speaker 06

  I don't really watch a lot of TV. I watch, I watch movies and documentaries.

• 3:39:21Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I don't really, I don't watch.

• 3:39:23Speaker 06

  Honestly, I don't even watch that much TV. Cause like if I'm really that bored, I'll just go like play a video game or do something productive, like, like work on some problem with code or something.

• 3:39:34Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's talk about last night. You were bringing up some really interesting stuff with the company Nvidia.

• 3:39:44Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, Nvidia is cool. Like, I mean, okay, like this is not financial advice. I am not a professional investor.

• 3:39:58Speaker 06

  And, uh, what do they call that? When I say.

• 3:40:01Shawn Ryan?

  Financial advisor?

• 3:40:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, I am not a financial advisor. This is not financial advice. But man, what a great company to invest in in today's age because I love, well, like not just because they're a great company. I mean, I, I'm into it. Like I, they honestly, I will not put money behind or, or brand or any of my time even into something I wasn't into, right? So it only made sense. Oh, these guys make GPUs and they, they do really great things with like, you know, computing and all this stuff too. And I'm like, well, those are my fucking alley. So when it came time, basically I had like a little bit of chunk of money came in one day and it was like,

• 3:40:40Speaker 06

  oh, wow. You need, uh, an accounting, like, like an accountant and you know, someone to look after your shit or like a company needs to do this because it's now it's wealth management. It's not like a family savings bond, you know, like, well, make that happen. And then it came down to the sit down and say, hey, you need to like, you should probably invest some of this money. I'm like, well, sure. Okay. What are you thinking? And they're like, well, I don't know. What do you think? What do you like? And I was like, oh, I like this, this and this. Like, okay, cool. So I go and I, I put my shit into like tech, you know what I mean? Not just Nvidia, but just, you know, like tech, like tech that I, I back. You know what I mean? And, and sometimes it's hit or miss, you know, like, but with Nvidia, it's been pretty fucking cool. Um, but then I got thinking like.

• 3:41:27Speaker 06

  Wow, what a great company. They make GPUs. How are they worth like all these like nearly a trillion dollars if they're only selling like these GPU units and stuff like that? And then you think, okay, well, I mean, GPUs are everywhere. Uh, they have the most patents on GPU. So I'm just trying to do quick math in my head, like, okay. No, it can't just be game cards, like graphics cards for computers. So maybe they're doing graphic cards for other consoles like uh, Playstations and stuff like that? That would be a big deal. No, they're not. Intel's doing it. Okay. Uh, Nintendo Switch. All right. Okay. There's that.

• 3:42:11Speaker 06

  Uh, you know, I'm just like, I was like, yeah, something ain't adding up. And then I, I, I read this article uh, way back when, where there was this Israeli chip manufacturer called Melinox. Like basically wanting to sell the farm and, and Melinox, I believe, made chips for like three, three or four different chip manufacturing companies that had the, the rights to go in there and have that sanctioned and fucking made their chips and then sent back to wherever the fuck they gotta get sent. And like, huh, that's really weird. Oh, I guess that makes sense because it's a pretty specialized fucking factory. You can't just spring up a chip plant somewhere like overnight and for cheap or whatever. You know what I mean? And just all the shit that goes into chip manufacturing. That's gotta be insane.

• 3:42:55Speaker 06

  So a lot of these companies were just kind of using this one manufacturer. And then I guess Nvidia had this great idea. It's like, let's buy them. I'm like, holy fuck, that's a big boy move. I mean, they just spent like four billion dollars on a new office in Santa Clara. Like fuck, why not? Buy the whole, buy the cow. You know what I mean? Why buy the milk? Basically was, I think, the thing with them. And I was like, wow, that's cool. And then, uh, now I'm talking to you nutbags and all you military guys over the last like little bit. I've just, for whatever been like, I don't mean that disrespectfully. You know, you're a little crazy. Um, you have to be. So, uh, like for whatever reason, I just like kind of poke into, you know, what's going on with, you know, these things and stuff like that.

• 3:43:38Speaker 06

  Just not, not like at an investigatory level, just out of just sheer curiosity, just because I'm a curious person. And then I, I, I start becoming wise to the ways of how.

• 3:43:50Speaker 06

  Military contracts are obtained because there was a company that I used to like use their products, a Lemur, and they made touchscreen control surfaces for musicians. And I thought this was before iPads and and we were they were like the coolest fucking things ever. And I was like, wow, you know, you can like touch the screen and move these faders and you can you can design your faders all you want. This is before iPads. So this is how mind blowing it was to us. Okay, I know every kid with a phone right now is like, um, so we're so I went and I bought two of them, one for me and Steve, and we performed on them for a minute. And the Daft Punk actually used them for a minute, too, and all this stuff. And then then the iPad came out and that just like, kick those to

• 3:44:34Speaker 06

  the curb because the iPad was like actually cheaper. These things were like four grand for like a piece of shit thing, you know, and it was just it was nowhere near as good as an iPad. But then when the iPad came out, me and Duda were like first in line, you know, like at the Apple Store, because we wanted to make a touchscreen controller stuff. And we did. And it was like fucking so much better. And then and I remember like talking about it some years later, I go, remember lemurs? And he was like, Yeah, I'm like, fuck, man, that sucks for them. Hey, like, Apple did just like the iPad just put them out of business. And they're like, Yeah, I think they're in avionics now. I was like, Fuck, that's, that's an interesting pivot. Well, good for them. At least they were able to fucking do whatever. But then they got they got some military contract. And I'm

• 3:45:17Speaker 06

  thinking like, Fuck, man, I wonder how that works out. Like, how do you do that? Like, basically, and then, you know, reading and all this stuff is like, basically, the idea of taking like a $40 screw and turning it into a $200 screw, like, just magically by by being blessed by this

• 3:45:32Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:45:34Speaker 06

  guy who just showed up at some weird trade show and said, Hey, man, we like what you do. We'll take your entire stock, you know, at at a factor of 120%. Done. You know, cool. Fuck the public sector, you know, like, I'm gonna make this stuff for the military. And I thought, Wow, that's cool. I wish they could militarize like music, because that would help me. I mean, there is some shit you could play that would definitely piss off a lot of people. But

• 3:46:03Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I think it is just, I mean, to have a company like that sending you stuff to Just test out. I mean, that is, that's pretty cool, man.

• 3:46:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, but that, but that's kind of where I'm going with this is that I was like, fuck, man. So it's like military contracts are really interesting. You know what I mean? Because it's just like, it's gotta be like, like if you, if you wanted to make a product that you know you wanted like a military, the US military, whatever to scoop up. Yeah, I guess you'd have to kind of approach it the same way I'd approach trying to get signed by a major label, right? So a lot of it's handshaking and, and working them fucking room and having a solid product and all that stuff too, that you can kind of at least convince somebody is better than what they're using. You know what I mean? So I'm like, fuck, man, that's really interesting shit, you know?

• 3:46:52Speaker 06

  Now, um, I, I kind of applied that mindset and came home from this bat shit, like fucking photos on the wall with the red string fucking theory. That Nvidia bought Mellanox so they could make fucking chips to sell it to the fucking military from Israel.

• 3:47:09Speaker 06

  I don't know. That's a hot fucking take, Joel, said in the comments.

• 3:47:13Shawn Ryan?

  Might not be too far off.

• 3:47:14Speaker 06

  I don't know.

• 3:47:15Shawn Ryan?

  I didn't even know. I didn't even know they were making chips in Israel. I thought everything was.

• 3:47:20Speaker 06

  No, no, Mellanox is in Israel. It's in Tel Aviv. I think it's fucking weird. And I'm just saying like, well, there you go. There's the path of least resistance of getting technology out of the United States to another country. Do it in another country, right? I mean, I don't know. Like, again, there's, there's so many people watching this video going like,

• 3:47:39Shawn Ryan?

  Have you?

• 3:47:40Speaker 06

  Who's this idiot DJ you got on your show, dude?

• 3:47:44Shawn Ryan?

  Have you, have you heard about these, these like ships that are processing centers that are floating out in the middle of the?

• 3:47:52Speaker 06

  International waters?

• 3:47:53Shawn Ryan?

  Yes.

• 3:47:53Speaker 06

  Doing what?

• 3:47:54Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know. Computing?

• 3:47:56Speaker 06

  You would know more about this than me. Boxless, uh, gloveless boxing fights?

• 3:48:00Shawn Ryan?

  I guess it's like half a billion dollar, like chip enterprises out there.

• 3:48:07Speaker 06

  It's tax free. And if you don't like your coworker, you can just fucking throw them over the side.

• 3:48:13Shawn Ryan?

  That's a good point.

• 3:48:14Speaker 06

  I'm just saying.

• 3:48:15Shawn Ryan?

  That is a good.

• 3:48:16Speaker 06

  Steven, I'm gonna need those TPS.

• 3:48:20Speaker 06

  Gulag.

• 3:48:22Shawn Ryan?

  But.

• 3:48:22Speaker 06

  That would be, that is weird.

• 3:48:24Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, they had just, I think it just came out, uh, yesterday. Today's what, November 13th? You know, I think it just came out, it just hit the, the news yesterday.

• 3:48:34Speaker 06

  But, but what are they doing? Like, or they, it's just, we don't know what they're doing, but somebody's doing something on a boat.

• 3:48:39Shawn Ryan?

  It's, well, it's, I g- I guess it's processing centers.

• 3:48:43Speaker 06

  For what? Processing what? Tax returns?

• 3:48:47Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe.

• 3:48:48Speaker 06

  Could be.

• 3:48:49Shawn Ryan?

  Hell of a.

• 3:48:49Speaker 06

  Could be that boring.

• 3:48:51Shawn Ryan?

  But, I don't know, I just find it interesting that, that Nvidia is putting boats out there with half a billion dollar chips and.

• 3:48:59Speaker 06

  Oh, Nvidia is doing this, you're saying?

• 3:49:01Shawn Ryan?

  That's what it's, yeah.

• 3:49:02Speaker 06

  Oh, see now, that makes sense. I thought you just said somebody. I'm like.

• 3:49:06Shawn Ryan?

  No, no, no, no.

• 3:49:06Speaker 06

  What are they doing? Oh, well, maybe, maybe that's just a, maybe they just found a way to fucking cut 2% of margins off of manufacturing costs by fucking not paying some kind of crazy tax or something.

• 3:49:20Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, sure.

• 3:49:20Speaker 06

  I don't fucking know.

• 3:49:21Shawn Ryan?

  Right, right.

• 3:49:22Speaker 06

  I don't know. So many questions, man. But I'll tell you what, if I'm ever in, uh, ahead of, um, you know, a trillion dollar company,

• 3:49:32Speaker 06

  I'll keep you in the know.

• 3:49:33Shawn Ryan?

  You'll keep me inside.

• 3:49:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'll let you know what's why we're doing it. Cause I don't even think, I don't even think the people that really like, kind of like, control the board or whatever know half the shit. I think a company gets so big sometimes that it's just like, it becomes a, a digitally autonomous organization, a DAO, which is actually a thing, which is kind of cool. Um, but yeah, that's what happens, you know? It's like, it's like, we, uh, America, you know, kind of said one day, hey, these are the rules and they're unchangeable and unbendable, like your constitution or, or whatever, you know what I mean? But like, is it really just like a huge mental exercise to say, hey, what if we just fucking scratch that and just wrote a new one?

• 3:50:16Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? Like, like mentally, not a big deal. You know what I mean? Let's get some people together and get them on an island and, and have them fucking do whatever they did again. You know, like, or, or whatever. I don't know how the process fucking should work and I'm not an expert in these political matters. But I'm just saying, why are we so like clinging on to like, well, no, it's, it's always been like that and always will be like that. But will it? You know what I mean? So it's like, why don't we just?

• 3:50:46Shawn Ryan?

  Some people can't think outside the box.

• 3:50:48Speaker 06

  I don't know.

• 3:50:48Shawn Ryan?

  And then there's people that go, what box?

• 3:50:51Speaker 06

  I am just a vessel.

• 3:50:53Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. But, well, Joel, do you have any other companies that you're working on? Any other future things outside of music?

• 3:51:02Speaker 06

  No, really, I don't. Uh, just music tech, I'm, I'm like, kind of just working on positioning myself so that I can develop more projects that involve more people. In the sense that like, like, uh, I would love to run a software company. Making what? I don't know, like, uh, pre-visualization software or a, a game studio or something like that. But the only way I can do that at this rate is kind of just like sunsetting off this dead mouse stuff. You know what I mean? Not, not killing it off, not retiring. I can't retire. It's just, I'm, it's too far gone. There's no such thing. I've heard fucking DJs cry about this shit.

• 3:51:47Speaker 06

  Let me retire, I mean, dude, and doing what exactly? You could go work at Hot Topic, like, what the fuck? You know, because you're gonna run out of that fucking money real quick. You know what I mean? At the rate you're fucking spending it or whatever. You didn't put it in anything, you know, you're gonna be unretired. You're gonna have your, your welcome back fucking Cotter fucking tour in about three years max. You know what I mean? And they have, you know what I mean? So it's like, get that notion out of your head. I'm not retiring, but I will slow down the shows a little bit, you know, and spend a lot more time at home. And when that happens, then I'll be able to get my, like, my eight teams together and, and I'll have some liquidity to be able to funnel into this and just say, look, let's take another chance. Let's fucking, let's try writing this software and see what it does.

• 3:52:33Speaker 06

  You know?

• 3:52:34Shawn Ryan?

  Hell, yeah, man. Well.

• 3:52:36Speaker 06

  That's the future.

• 3:52:37Shawn Ryan?

  We're kind of wrapping it up now. Before we do wrap it up, who are three people that you'd like to see on the show?

• 3:52:46Speaker 06

  On this show?

• 3:52:47Shawn Ryan?

  On this show.

• 3:52:47Speaker 06

  Oh, my God. Um, well.

• 3:52:52Speaker 06

  I think Tommy would be really funny. If you like that.

• 3:52:56Shawn Ryan?

  I would love that.

• 3:52:56Speaker 06

  Band from Los Angeles. He's, he's a really great guy.

• 3:53:01Shawn Ryan?

  I would love to interview Tommy Lee.

• 3:53:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know what? I think he's coming by this neck of the woods, so I'll.

• 3:53:06Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 3:53:06Speaker 06

  Ask him about it. Yeah, yeah, they're doing some Motley Crue shit like next year.

• 3:53:10Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, cool. Thank you.

• 3:53:13Speaker 06

  Uh, Steve Duda would be a good one.

• 3:53:16Shawn Ryan?

  That would be awesome.

• 3:53:17Speaker 06

  But he's like, he's. Yeah, he's Steve. Um, and Danny Loner.

• 3:53:25Shawn Ryan?

  Danny Loner.

• 3:53:26Speaker 06

  Fucking laughing. It's my security guy's best friend. Danny Loner is a good one.

• 3:53:31Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 3:53:31Speaker 06

  Danny Loner's crazy. He'll get, he'll get, he'll get weird with you all fucking day. He does not give a shit.

• 3:53:38Speaker 06

  Like he'll be like, I don't, he'll be like, I want to talk about that.

• 3:53:42Speaker 06

  I want to know the truth. Yeah, he's, he's a good guy.

• 3:53:46Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's wrap it up. Well, Joel.

• 3:53:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, thanks, man.

• 3:53:49Shawn Ryan?

  I just want to say, man, thank you so much for giving me your time and, um.

• 3:53:53Speaker 06

  It was fun.

• 3:53:54Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, it was a real pleasure.

• 3:53:55Speaker 06

  But I will say, you know, you know what the best fucking interviews are?

• 3:53:58Shawn Ryan?

  What?

• 3:53:59Speaker 06

  Six-year-old kids.

• 3:54:00Shawn Ryan?

  Six-year-old kids.

• 3:54:01Speaker 06

  Asking you questions. They are just dumb as shit, but they are so funny.

• 3:54:05Shawn Ryan?

  Have you done this?

• 3:54:06Speaker 06

  They, they ask you the best fucking questions. I swear to God. I, I, I like, I really don't do interviews. I like, I, I fucking adore them just because I always say the stupidest shit. And then it's always like at the end, wow, he's so stupid. And I'm like, okay, whatever. But, um. Uh, I sometimes like. Some freak accident, like a kid will show up with like a microphone, a little six-year-old, be like. Asking me the weirdest questions, like, and I'm like, I love them. They're hilarious.

• 3:54:36Shawn Ryan?

  We'll have to do that sometime.

• 3:54:37Speaker 06

  Interview a kid.

• 3:54:39Shawn Ryan?

  Well, hey, man, I just wanted to say thank you.

• 3:54:41Speaker 06

  Thank you so much. Pleasure, honor.