The Fever Has You | Ask DS

Look at any millionaire, Seneca tells Lucilius in one of his letters, they are some of the poorest people in Rome. Money has made them obsess over public opinion. Money has control of their schedules and their decisions. Money has put them in the center of a circle of sycophants and grifters. Money has escalated their tastes and expectations beyond quenching.“These individuals,” Seneca writes, “have riches just as we say that we ‘have a fever,’ when really the fever has us.”It’s a sad sight, he says.--And in today's Ask Daily Stoic, Ryan answers questions during an audience Q&A session after his talk to a collection of corporate leaders. Topics covered include how we can focus on our reactions to obstacles rather than the obstacles themselves, how to get better at saying "no," how to better deal with change, and more.💵 Visit dailystoic.com/wealth to sign up for The Wealthy Stoic wealth management course today.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each day we read a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you in your everyday life. While on Thursdays, we not only read the daily meditation, but we answer some questions from listeners and fellow Stoics who are trying to apply this philosophy just as you are. Some of these come from my talks. Some of these come from Zoom sessions that we do with Daily Stoic Life members or as part of the challenges. Some of them are from interactions I have on the street when there happened to be someone there recording. But thank you for listening, and we hope this is of use to you.

• 0:45Ryan Holiday?

  "The Fever Has You." "Look at any millionaire," Seneca tells Lucilius in one of his letters. "They are some of the poorest people in Rome. Money has made them obsess over public opinion. Money has control of their schedules and their decisions. Money has put them in the center of a circle of sycophants and grifters. Money has escalated their tastes and expectations beyond quenching. These individuals," Seneca writes, "have riches just as we say that we have a fever, when really, the fever has us. It's a sad sight," he says. And sadly, this "look at any millionaire" experiment still works today. There are a lot of rich people who live very poor lives. They are rarely not thinking about money, how to acquire more of it,

• 1:30Ryan Holiday?

  about what they can trade in their life in exchange for it, about who they know who has more of it than they do. And while these poor souls have a lot of money, what they don't understand is that really money has a lot of them. "Money never made a man rich," Seneca adds. "Do you ask the reason for this? He who possesses more begins to be able to possess still more." And this is a universal human battle. It doesn't really matter the number in your bank account. It's hard to turn off the brain's desire for more. But until you can turn it off, until you have a sense for what is enough, you are poorer than the poorest people in Rome. And sadly, all of these profound insights about the nature of wealth and its grip on individuals came at a time when Seneca himself was under money's thumb.

• 2:15Ryan Holiday?

  Money is what clearly attracted him to Nero's service. In 13 years, working for a man who was clearly deranged and evil, Seneca became one of Rome's richest men. He couldn't see that Nero was slowly buying him, trapping him in a gilded cage he eventually realized he couldn't buy his way out of. This is one of the things I've been talking about recently, that Seneca, despite being one of the wealthiest Stoics financially, is actually a model for one of the poorest Stoics. Throughout the new course we just launched, The Wealthy Stoic, A Daily Stoic Guide to Being Rich, Free, and Happy. His life was full of lessons about what not to do, the kinds of opportunities to say no to, the kind of people to steer clear of, the debts that can be disguised as gifts

• 2:58Ryan Holiday?

  and why we have to avoid them, so much more. And all of this is built into the course. It's hard to get it together, I know. This course, we want more, we aspire to more. It's a complicated thing, but that's why we spent over nine weeks diving into this in a very deep way in the new course. And it's gonna be awesome. We do some deep dives with some great guests, who I'm going to keep hidden until now, but it's gonna be an awesome surprise. Some people whose work you're very familiar with, and I think have some great insights to add. There'll be some Q and A's with me. It's a live course, it begins on Monday, June 5th. We're all gonna move through it together. And given the financial realities of the world, I actually feel like this course is one of our most important to date. So don't wait to sign up. Stop putting it off.

• 3:42Ryan Holiday?

  Get it together right now and sign up at dailystoic.com/wealth. And don't forget, all Daily Stoic Life members get this course and all their courses for free. You can sign up there at dailystoic.com/life.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Brian, thank you so much for being here with us today.

• 4:07Ryan Holiday?

  Of course.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Ignore the prompter.

• 4:09Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  We're going off script.

• 4:10Ryan Holiday?

  Alright.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Because you've basically just answered all of my questions.

• 4:14Ryan Holiday?

  Alright, well, let's go wherever you want to go.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Awesome, let's do it. I'm really honored to be here with you and welcome you to this forum and being able to chat, not just about your book, but your philosophy in life, since it just seems very stoic in nature and it's just very fitting with our ambitions to bring conscious leadership into the corporate world. So, you talked to us a lot about your book, "The Obstacle is the Way", and you know, you discuss the idea of turning obstacles into opportunities. And you know, we all encounter obstacles in life, it's a common theme, but you argue that the obstacle isn't really the issue, so that we should focus more about how we react to them

• 5:01Speaker 01

  and whether or not we should, you know, keep our composure and this is what really determines whether or not we will fail or be successful. Why don't you tell us what are the steps in doing that and what really differentiates people who fail versus people who succeed when they're faced with difficult circumstances?

• 5:19Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I didn't put it in the talk because it kind of summarizes everything. But Marcus, he says, look, he says, "Objective judgment now at this very moment", so that's how you see things. Then he says, "Unselfish action now at this very moment", so that's like what we do about it, that's being part of a team, that's making a positive difference. And this is willing acceptance of external events, that's the ability to endure and survive, that's all you need. That's the definition of how we respond to obstacles. It's like, first, trying to see it as clearly as possible, stripping out the emotions, stripping out, you know, judgment, just going like, it is what it is, here's what I'm gonna do about it. Then we try to take an action that's positive, right? There's obviously selfish things we could do about a problem or an obstacle

• 6:04Ryan Holiday?

  and then unselfish things, but trying to be as sort of community minded as possible. And then, you know, bringing a certain amount of determination and willpower, that's kind of how I think about it. It's like, is that process, like the one, two, three. That's kind of how I think about obstacles.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  And where do you think we all fail the most?

• 6:24Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you know, I think we feel differently on different problems. But I think it starts with how we see it.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Perspective.

• 6:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it all starts with the perspective. Because how many people would kill to be dealing with the very problem that you're lamenting? Right? Or even you yourself, in an earlier part in your life or in your career, would have killed to be in that position. And so, the idea that it's somehow negative or unfair, like, this is all a matter of perspective, how you're choosing to see it. So I try to, I try to step back and go, okay, how do I see this from a distance, from another person's eyes? You know, with a longer time horizon? And by seeing it differently, suddenly, you know, different routes or alternatives become clear.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Amazing. So, you talk about perspective and how we see things, and then the action that comes after.

• 7:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  I like it. And you dedicate a whole chapter to deciphering what is actually within our control versus not in our control. Right? So you mentioned emotions, obviously, effort, perspective, and things that aren't in our control, like the weather and the economy. We shouldn't spend any time on them, just because you're wasting your energy into things that you can't really control. And one of the things that we can control is time and resources. And contrary to your agenda and your calendar, our calendars are pretty much jam-packed. So, how do you say no? I mean, you mentioned this magic word "no", but sometimes it's not necessarily culturally appropriate.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  So, how do you do it? Tell us about it.

• 8:01Ryan Holiday?

  Well, one of the things I think about is, what are the things that only I can do? Right? And I want to make sure I'm not doing a bunch of stuff that other people are already doing, or other people could be doing. I want to make my own unique contribution. So I try to go as much towards the stuff that only I can do. Right? And then I try to delegate, or automate those other things. Right? And I think so often, we like being the center of things. We like being involved. And because we're busy... Because we're micromanagers, we're taking away time and resources from stuff that if we don't do, it doesn't get done, right? Especially the more you move up the leadership chain,

• 8:46Ryan Holiday?

  like your job is to think bigger picture, right? Your job is to plan for emergencies. Your job is to deal with things that pertain to culture or retention, or, you know, all these other important things. And if you're not doing them, those things are not being done, right? I remember, uh, once I was, I, I, for many years, I was the director of marketing in American Apparel. And I remember I looked down out of my window one day and the CEO, the owner of the company had come in and he had seen that there was kind of a problem with like parking or whatever. And I saw him directing traffic in the parking lot. Now, he probably thought this is like, I'm a great leader. I'm getting my hands dirty. I'm, I'm not thinking I'm too important for anything. I'm making, and it's like,

• 9:29Ryan Holiday?

  but meanwhile, the corner office at the top of the building that was supposed to be thinking about, you know, what are our next great products, right? What are, you know, where's the next round of funding coming from, you know? All the important stuff that was not being done because he was downstairs moving cars into parking spots. And so I think really having the discipline to know like, here's what I'm supposed to do. Here's what my strengths are and being willing to bring on people, to bring a team on, um, is really, really important. And it tends to be that the more talented you are, harder it is to do that, right?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Why is that?

• 10:09Ryan Holiday?

  Great athletes know how to do everything really well, but there's some things they do better than those other things, right? And if you're trying to play every position simultaneously, what you're depriving yourself of is the talents of people who are specialists, who are great at that. And so it's not just saying no to, hey, do you want to go to this conference? What about this meeting we're doing on Friday? It's also the no to say, I'm going to leave this task with you because this is what I hired you to do.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Even knowing that I might not like the outcome or that it could be better.

• 10:42Ryan Holiday?

  Or that it might not be the exact way that I would do it.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:45Ryan Holiday?

  But the point of you being in the company is because I shouldn't be doing it, right? And so delegation and automation is so important. And this is also true in our private lives, right? I think so often people, because of how they were raised, because of like certain maybe gender norms or whatever, they think like, I have to be doing all these things. And if you can't delegate or automate, right? You're tying up resources that could be spent on things where, you know, you could be making more money, you could be making more of a positive contribution. I, I think we have to get better at automating and delegating. That is the art of leadership and it's also the art of scaling and growing, right?

• 11:29Ryan Holiday?

  Like if you're trying to hold everything, keep it through you, it's never going to get bigger and it's never going to get better.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  So automate, delegate and say no.

• 11:37Ryan Holiday?

  And say no, yes.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Prioritize.

• 11:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, exactly.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  I like it. You also talk about iteration and creating MVPs in mobile products instead of, you know, complete polished and finished businesses. And you see value in failing fast and failing cheap. And I think that's very fitting since we as probably as well as many other companies in the world right now are going through a digital transformation. And so we are heading into working with agile methodologies. It's hard, but we're getting there. So, you know, it's, it's hard because you need to create things like psychological safety and being, being able to say it's okay that I failed.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  So sometimes we like the idea of change, but we just don't like to go through the change. How do you reconcile, you know, that aspiration with our reality? And how does discipline come into the picture with that?

• 12:36Ryan Holiday?

  There's a Hemingway line who says, "The first draft of anything is shit." And one of the things you get comfortable with as a writer is crappy first drafts. Right? Is that is knowing the difference between what the finished product will end up being and where you have to begin, which is on page zero. Right? You have to get comfortable going, this isn't what I would ship to the public yet. But if my if I'm trapped by the final product, what it needs to be, I'm never gonna start or experiment or iterate my way there. And I think so often our perfectionism is actually a not a strength, but a weakness.

• 13:22Ryan Holiday?

  You know, they they say that one way to spell perfection is paralysis. Right? Because your standards are so high, you're not able to deal with that sort of murky middle ground where you're getting where you want to go. And all change is that way, all transformation is that way. And the bigger the company is, the harder it is to do these sort of big pivots or changes because, you know, what you have, although you know it's not working and it's not sustainable, is, you know, serviceable in this present moment. And the replacement, you know, it may take a couple of tries to get it right, or it may be worse for a little bit, right?

• 14:05Ryan Holiday?

  I try to think of like a great golfer reinventing their swing. Right? They're good, maybe even great, but they know there's some level they're trying to get to. And they have to be comfortable enough, competent enough, brave enough to get worse before they get better and to trust, you know, the expert swing coach they brought on, to trust the process, to trust themselves, to know, hey, I'm gonna go through this valley before I come out of the other side. And and so one of the ways I think you get there is by moving quickly, iterating, experimenting and and saying, hey, I'm I'm I'm giving myself some space here.

• 14:47Ryan Holiday?

  And I'm I'm I know that if I stay at it, eventually we'll get there. And I think what you can take some comfort in is like, think of the transitions or changes you've made in the past. And the valley that you went through to get on the other side of them, right? Like, when I was struggling with with my newest book, which is Discipline is Destiny, like, I was able to go, oh, yeah, I've been through this hit.

• 15:15Ryan Holiday?

  Entrepreneurs call it the trough of despair. I've been I've been in the trough of despair before. And I you don't get stuck there. If you keep going, if you keep working, if you keep tweaking, if you make little improvements day to day, eventually you get where you're wanting to go. And and so, like, understanding that it gets worse before it gets better, but staying the same is also setting yourself up for something worse, too.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think as an individual contributor, that makes a lot of sense. What do you think, putting it into perspective into a company that has thousands and thousands of hundreds of thousands of employees? Iterating becomes harder, right? Because you're not just moving yourself and iterating yourself, you're trying to have everybody else do it with you.

• 16:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  And changes and multiple changes at the same time is really hard for people to to really understand and be comfortable with, right?

• 16:10Ryan Holiday?

  Change is a fact of life. It's the the only thing that doesn't change, as they said. And I I think one stepping back and going, look, like, the company was something different five years ago, 10 years ago, 80 years ago.

• 16:27Ryan Holiday?

  It's always been like, it's gotten where it is through change. Right? So without, like, by by getting rid of change, right? You're actually doing something that's contrary to your history and your character. But I think communication inside the company is how you get the what makes change harder and scarier is when it's unexpected, when people haven't been messaged about it, right? When people haven't. Been brought into it when they're not a part of it. Right. Right, so like when when people suddenly wake up one day and the way they did it five years for the last five years is different. They don't like that. Yeah.

• 17:08Ryan Holiday?

  But when they are brought on, made a part of it, when they're able to have input on it, and when they're also given space to go, hey, like, you're gonna figure this out with time, it's gonna be different, but you will figure it out, just as you figured out everything else, I think it becomes more palatable. But a big problem is we just, we don't message it very well, we just expect people to get On board. To just get on board, and then you wonder why they don't like it, why they don't cooperate, you know, why they push back against it. It's because they feel threatened by it, and they feel caught off guard by it, and I think that's, that's pretty understandable.