Pod Insights On with Kara Swisher TMZ’s Harvey Levin Says Politics Is Pop Culture About this episode TMZ, the celebrity news juggernaut, opened a Washington, D. C., bureau this spring. Founder Harvey Levin joins Kara to talk about the stories his team is looking for and why he views politics as pop culture.
Levin discusses TMZ’s earlier attempts to establish a presence in the capital and how the latest government shutdown helped revive the idea. He and Kara dig into TMZ’s standards, whether it pays sources, and Levin’s relationship with President Trump. They also discuss TMZ’s coverage of Spencer Pratt’s failed Los Angeles mayoral run.
Plus: how Levin is pivoting the business toward social media and YouTube.
Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher.
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Transcript 10,736 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Kara Swisher? You don't know this maybe about me, but I used to do parties for The Washington Post. They used to cover parties.
0:04 Speaker 01 I did know that.
0:05 Kara Swisher? That was my coming up job, was like, can I get Ted Kennedy to throw a drink in my face, kind of stuff, or something like that. He spilled a drink on me once.
0:25 Kara Swisher? Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is TMZ founder and executive director Harvey Levin. A lawyer and TV legal analyst, Harvey started a celebrity news site, TMZ, in 2005, which is where I met him. He's since expanded into a multi-platform business that includes television, streaming, podcasts, social media channels, documentaries, and celebrity bus tours. TMZ set itself apart from traditional tabloids by what it didn't cover: no red carpets, weddings, and junkets. Instead, it leaned on aggressive investigative reporting and ethically dubious methods to some, including possibly paying sources,
1:06 Kara Swisher? although that's something Harvey argues about, to land some of the biggest celebrity scoops of the past two decades. This spring, TMZ expanded its political news coverage and opened up a bureau in Washington, DC. According to a post on TMZ, the reporters planned to, quote, "explore the intersection between pop culture and politics." I have interviewed Harvey many times, way back when I was at The Wall Street Journal, when I really noticed what he was doing with that website, which I thought was highly innovative. And later, at my Code conference, I've always thought he was a really interesting media entrepreneur. I love media entrepreneurs. And I do think he gets a little bit of a hit, just because he talks about celebrities. He's broken a lot of stories. He did amazing work in covering Spencer Pratt and was the one to write about some of the hypocritical
1:50 Kara Swisher? stuff that Pratt was doing. And they've done a pretty good job in DC, and I actually am enjoying what they're doing and seeing what they're doing. And they've got a lot of energy around them that I appreciate, and they actually do quite a lot of reporting. Our expert question comes from Ashley Parker, a staff writer of The Atlantic, who herself is an amazing reporter. So stick around.
2:18 Kara Swisher? Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more. And listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.
3:02 Kara Swisher? Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them ever talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try it today for free at Odoo.com/kara. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash Kara.
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4:12 Kara Swisher? Harvey, welcome to On.
4:14 Speaker 01 I am so pleased to be able to talk to you. We go back to the beginning of TMZ.
4:20 Kara Swisher? We do. Let's talk about what you're doing now. TMZ has never drawn a line between politicians and celebrities. As TMZ's head of legal affairs said, quote, "We've always viewed politicians to just be another branch of the celebrity tree," end quote. And you had ambitions early on to establish presence in DC, and you finally did in April. What took so long? Because you had talked about it even back then.
4:43 Speaker 01 Warner Brothers killed it twice. We were owned by Warner Brothers, by Telepictures. And in 2000, I think it was 2008, I said I wanted to do TMZ DC. And at the time, we were with AOL. It was a partnership between Telepictures and AOL. And I went back and forth to Washington, hired a staff. We were going to have our lunch dinner and open our office the next morning. And I got a call just before leaving for dinner, saying, "I got some bad news for you. We're killing it."
5:20 Kara Swisher? Wow.
5:21 Speaker 01 And they killed it.
5:22 Kara Swisher? Why?
5:22 Speaker 01 What I later found out was that AOL, in particular, although I think Warner Brothers as well, but AOL in particular, they were worried because of regulations, that they were afraid that we might piss off a congressman who they needed, you know, for some regulatory act or whatever. And the more they talked about it, the more scared they got, and they killed it. I mean, this is classic corporate culture. And so they killed it twice when we were over there at Warner Brothers. And, you know, this came about, Kara, really spontaneously, that when Congress could not
6:06 Speaker 01 pass the budget to fund Homeland Security, Charles and I interviewed a woman who worked at TSA. And she was about to lose her apartment. Her car was going to get repossessed. Her mental health had gone down the tubes. And... We are standing there talking to her and knowing that they were going to take a two-week Easter recess. And I was so outraged, we just said, "Look, this is unacceptable, and if anybody out there gets photographs of any member of Congress, Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter,
6:47 Speaker 01 on vacation, send us the pictures, and we are going to put them up and juxtapose that against people like this woman."
6:56 Kara Swisher? People who are losing their jobs.
6:57 Speaker 01 Exactly.
6:58 Kara Swisher? Right. So who's your ownership now that you're able to do this, then?
7:01 Speaker 01 We're owned by Fox.
7:02 Kara Swisher? Fox, right, right. And so, and they got it in the, which deal? Which deal was it? How did it get over there?
7:09 Speaker 01 Five years ago, Warner Brothers sold it to Fox. And honestly, they've been great, and they haven't imposed any pressure on us. We did this with, you know, the two weeks that Congress was out.
7:22 Kara Swisher? So it was an opportunity?
7:23 Speaker 01 It just totally felt like this is the moment.
7:25 Kara Swisher? Right. And in late March, during this partial government shutdown, you asked travelers to send in pictures, and there's a gallery on TMZ's website that includes a viral photo of Lindsey Graham at Disney World holding a Little Mermaid bubble wand, which I really enjoyed very much.
7:40 Speaker 01 It was the first day of recess, we got this picture, and I'm just thinking, "Oh my God." So we just said, "Look, this is the moment," and we put it together in two weeks.
7:50 Kara Swisher? Right. And what do you think hit with it? Because it really had a reaction, and everyone was like, "Well, besides the wand, which was so fantastic and perfect in so many ways." But what was it? Because is there an audience for random Congress people at airport? What do you think worked there from your, from making content all these years?
8:06 Speaker 01 It was nonpartisan. And, you know, things have become so tribal in media, where you only go after Republicans if you're a certain, you know, channel, you go after Democrats if you're another, and we were nonpartisan. And we just put it out there, and we really felt the outrage, and we telegraphed it. And people responded. People were angry, and they wanted to see some. Something like this. And, and again, it just felt like the right time to launch TMZ DC.
8:40 Kara Swisher? So you had it in the works again, or had it been on a shelf? Or you just said, we're just gonna do this because we're so irritated? I mean, because that's not a business plan.
8:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, there was no business plan. There are two people in my organization that I felt were just perfect for this. And I thought, I'm gonna make a, I'm gonna do something with them where I'm gonna move them to Washington DC. And we made that decision very quickly. We put them up in an Airbnb for the first month, and they just hit the ground running. And it started with both of them having books of pictures of the various members of Congress. And now, they know everybody.
9:23 Kara Swisher? Right.
9:23 Speaker 01 And it's been two months.
9:24 Kara Swisher? So this is, this is Charlie Cotton and Jacob Wasserman.
9:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:28 Kara Swisher? And Charlie just told Politico that people should know as much about public officials as they know about the Real Housewives, correct?
9:35 Speaker 01 He's right.
9:35 Kara Swisher? And what's wrong in the way news organizations cover politicians? You don't know this maybe about me, but I used to do parties for the Washington Post. They used to cover parties.
9:43 Speaker 01 I did know that.
9:44 Kara Swisher? And that's what it reminds me of. It's a little funny, it's very cutting. Sometimes it puts, you know, hypocrisy, sometimes it's just a joke. And they stopped really doing that. And that was my coming up job, was like, can I get Ted Kennedy to throw a drink in my face, kind of stuff? Or like, get a moment, or, or something like, like that. He spilled a drink on me once. But, you know, it was a lot of this stuff. And I always thought it was very revelatory. What do you think is wrong with the way news organizations cover politicians?
10:14 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, I think part of it is that they, that everybody is in one lane. And, you know, it, it, it's, it's so policy oriented that you don't kind of open things up to understand what's behind it. And sometimes when you understand the people and where they're coming from, it gives you an insight into why they're doing what they're doing. You know, most of the time, we're not having these contentious... Conversations with people, but occasionally we do. And we pissed Ted Cruz off, something fierce once, where we were asking him about the the fund, the slush fund, that Donald Trump wanted to create.
10:58 Speaker 01 And he did not want to answer. And Charlie, I think very respectfully, would not let it go. And Cruz got very angry. And I and what really struck me about that, Carrie, is that a lot of times, when a politician gets angry, the reporter either backs off or changes the subject. And Charlie didn't back off.
11:20 Kara Swisher? He didn't.
11:21 Speaker 01 But he wasn't disrespectful. And it was revelatory for me.
11:25 Kara Swisher? Oh, it is, completely.
11:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, that that there are ways of, you know, forcing issues that need to be talked about, that, you know, I I see this sometimes with White House news conferences. Where they'll ask a question, it gets deflected, they may do a follow up, and if they deflect again, they just drop it.
11:45 Kara Swisher? Right, right, because they're not, they think they aren't getting the answer, right? And it's also the stick-to-it-iveness of doing it. But would TMZ's celebrity framing approach to politics worse without a President Trump in office? I mean, the man is a one-man Oompa Band.
11:58 Speaker 01 I think it would have worked with Obama. I think it absolutely would have worked with Obama, and that's when we wanted to launch. So I.
12:05 Kara Swisher? Why? Explain that from your perspective.
12:08 Speaker 01 Because there was a freshness to Obama coming into office. And an kind of a more of an openness, at least it felt that way. And people were excited, they wanted to talk about it, there were people who were upset about it. And I think that was a real moment, and that's why I wish we could have launched back then. So I think this would have worked with Obama. And I do want to just say one thing, that, you know, you're referring to this as, you know, politicians being a form of celebrities.
12:39 Kara Swisher? Right, yeah.
12:40 Speaker 01 I don't view it that way.
12:41 Kara Swisher? Okay.
12:41 Speaker 01 I view it as pop culture. We cover pop culture. And pop culture can be a lot of things. You know, it can be sports, it can be entertainment. And pop culture is politics. Because a lot of the things that affect everybody emanates from Washington DC. And it emanates from the courts, it emanates from Congress, from the president. And it affects all of us. So they are integral part of pop culture. So to me, it has never been a stretch.
13:11 Kara Swisher? Right. So there's a mix of political stories on the site. Just looking at interviews from lawmakers on Capitol Hill. There's funny stuff, there's Iran war coverage. What makes something a TMZ politics story? And why'd you pick these two? You told me an interesting story when we were having drinks recently.
13:26 Speaker 01 Why didn't we pick Charlie and Jacob?
13:28 Kara Swisher? Yeah, and also, what makes it a TMZ politics story? Because it's a range of things on your site.
13:33 Speaker 01 Well, you know, I start with the negative. What I tell, what I've told Jacob and Charlie is, do not pretend like you're a White House correspondent or somebody covering the Hill. You know, the reason I sent them there is because they are fantastic, and they are authentic. And they are different from everybody in Washington DC. They don't have to act a certain way because this is the way you act when you're a reporter in DC. I just told them, dress the same way, act the same way. In fact, don't act, just be yourselves. Charlie has done this, you know, done interviews with people for a dozen years.
14:15 Speaker 01 So he's really good, not at interviews, but having conversations. And I think that's the distinction. Charlie is fabulous at just having a conversation and letting things kind of flow. I'm not trying to blow smoke, Kara, but you did that so incredibly well with your series on CNN. That you just followed the conversation, you didn't have an outline. And I saw it when I watched you. And I know I was bugging you, texting you, telling you how good you were. But that is a skill that a lot of people don't have. They get pre-programmed.
14:51 Kara Swisher? Yeah, that's true. That's true. You do have a strategy more than you think, but I see your point. And then what about Jacob? Why did you assign him there?
14:59 Speaker 01 Because I saw glimmers of that with Jacob, and he didn't have the experience out in the field. But there was something, he loves politics, and he's just such a unique character that I thought I'd roll the dice on him, and I just cannot believe how good he is. I am so proud of them, and this is 90-plus percent casting. That's what this is, and they are A++ as far as I'm concerned. I'm so proud of them.
15:30 Kara Swisher? But what is a story? Is it just anything? Because it can range. How do you look at what a TMZ story is over something else?
15:38 Speaker 01 Well, it can be anything. I mean, you know, when they got invited to a Pentagon news conference. And so Jacob, look, I mean, they're at the Pentagon. I mean, what's TMZ doing at the Pentagon? So Jacob asked Hexa, what goes through his mind and his body when he orders a military strike, when a bomb drops? Is it fear? Is it power? And that's, in fact, he even said, well, that's a TMZ question, and it is. Because it's not necessarily asking about strategy of war and all the other things that the others' reporters ask, but it just felt like we kind of want to know what makes this guy tick.
16:20 Speaker 01 Does he get a thrill? Does he get a charge out of it? Is he scared about it? You know, frankly-
16:25 Kara Swisher? But you're not trying to do PR for them, right? You're trying to get to something real? Is that what you're saying, essentially?
16:30 Speaker 01 Totally. We didn't get a good answer, but we tried.
16:34 Kara Swisher? Well, he's not a very thoughtful person, but let me ask you about the politics of it, because we are in such drastically political times, partisan times. And you've known President Trump for a long time, and obviously he was on TMZ in the old world. You supported him during his first run in 2016, and two former staffers told Bloomberg in this piece in 2018, they were limited in covering Trump-related scandals because Trump bashing wouldn't make it on the air. But according to the same Bloomberg piece, things changed after falling out with him in 2018 over his efforts to ban transgender troops from serving in the military. Talk about your relationship. Do you think about it like that? I don't think you probably do, knowing you, but talk about that a little bit, because people do question Rupert Murdoch, or if you're at MSNBC on the other side.
17:20 Kara Swisher? Do you think about that at all? Or how much influence do you have? Or do you use that influence?
17:25 Speaker 01 Well, first of all, the scenario there is wrong. What happened was, I was not so much supporting Trump as I was taking a position that was contrary to everybody else in the office. And also, I did know him. And I thought he wanted to be a one-term president. And the person I knew was kind of a laissez-faire guy. I mean, he knew I was gay. It was not an issue with him. He, you know, he, he felt to me, you know, in the 15 years I knew him before he ran, that he was kind of a live and let live guy. And that's not only my opinion, but I've talked to a lot of people who knew him back then,
18:07 Speaker 01 before he decided to run, who felt the same way. And so, I thought he was-
18:13 Kara Swisher? On that topic, yes, go ahead.
18:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I mean, I thought, for better or worse, he was going to be a one-term president. And, you know, he did it. He won. He'd do it for one term, and then he'd leave. So, literally, the first day, he says he's going to run for reelection when that comes up. And I was alarmed. So, I had a show on Fox called Objectified, where I interviewed celebrities and world leaders, and kind of used objects that they kept over the years to kind of get into their lives. And I wanted to interview Netanyahu at the time. So, I was having breakfast in DC with Ron Dermer shortly after Trump became president. And Ron Dermer was the Israeli ambassador to the United States.
18:57 Speaker 01 And I spent a good portion of that breakfast talking to him, saying, "I'm alarmed." What, you know, because I was going to go see Trump in the Oval Office later that morning. And I said, "What can I ask him to do that would be useful?" Because I was alarmed at what I was hearing. And Dermer and I talked about it. And what I ended up talking to Trump about was, A, that you can't alienate the Black Caucus the way you are, and that you should meet with- John Lewis and other members of that coalition. Why would you want to create that kind of adversary relationship? They're important.
19:39 Speaker 01 And the second thing I wanted to talk to him about was the nonsense about transgender bathrooms. That it was a non-issue that he was trying to make a federal issue. And I walked out of there dissatisfied and really didn't have much contact. In fact, no contact with him after that. And that was February. I didn't have any contact with him because I was getting increasingly upset. I believe it was September of that year, 2017, when Donald Trump said, "Fire those sons of bitches," referring to Colin Kaepernick taking the knee. And I thought, "I'm done." And that was it.
20:24 Kara Swisher? That was it. But it doesn't affect what you're covering here, correct? Do you want your reporters to have a point of view or just get to the info?
20:33 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, look, I mean, a point of view. Should they have a point of view on the government going away without passing a bill so that people get fed?
20:40 Kara Swisher? Yes, I see your point, yeah.
20:42 Speaker 01 So, you know, I don't think it can be all or nothing. But I don't want them to be partisan. And I want them to understand what makes these people tick.
20:52 Kara Swisher? So, speaking of pop culture, that UFC fight at the White House was something, of course, capped off by this insult to Michelle Obama, which you all have covered. Talk a little bit about that because now pop culture is front and center. I doubt another administration is going to do it like this. Ultimately, people have come to you. Politics has come to you versus vice versa in that way.
21:14 Speaker 01 First of all, that comment about Michelle Obama was disgusting. I will say this, and I did this today on our social media. And I'm just getting trashed like crazy, which is unsurprising.
21:25 Kara Swisher? All right, I'll trash you if I have to, but go ahead.
21:27 Speaker 01 And if you want to, have at me. But, believe me, I know you and I know you well. I don't have a problem with a UFC event at the White House, and I'll tell you why. Presidents have always held gala events. You know, Obama had Hamilton come to the White House. Reagan had Frank Sinatra sing. And, you know, you could go on and on and on. The reality is, you know, UFC may or may not be your taste, but it is wildly popular in America.
22:01 Kara Swisher? I would agree.
22:02 Speaker 01 And there's also diversity in UFC. There's diversity with the fighters. It crosses lots of lines. And I think there's an element of elitism when people say, oh, this is below the dignity of the White House. It's an event, and, you know, he invited military folks. And, you know, it's something that is very popular, and just the way Ronald Reagan liked Frank Sinatra and Obama liked Hamilton. Why can't Donald Trump like the UFC?
22:34 Kara Swisher? Agreed. Listen, you'll be surprised. I like MMA fighting. I do, I do. I thought they did it in a trashy way. That's my issue with it. And used a lot of federal resources and sold a lot of advertising. You don't see Obama putting up a Bud Light ad in the White House. Let me read you, this is from Monica Haas from the Washington Post, who also likes MMA as I do. "The problem isn't fighting on the lawn. People who love the UFC have had to sit through decades of presidents inviting poets and chalice and opera singers to the White House and turn about is fair play. The problem was Sunday's broadcast wasn't the fighting. The problem was the tonally incoherent emulsion of patriotism and bloodlust, history and buy-this-crap event, happening for the people but tucked away behind a Paramount Plus pay wall." I kind of think that says it.
23:18 Kara Swisher? It was not done for the people, and the people paid for it, like essentially. And so, that, to me, was the issue more than anything. But I agree with you, he should have whatever entertainment he wants about. I don't, I don't care.
23:29 Speaker 01 And, and I agree with you on the Paramount Plus business, that, you know, this, this should have been an event open to everybody. And I think putting it behind a paywall, I think that's really wrong. But, you know, it's funny, you think about the party... That the DNC threw for John Kennedy in 1962 at Madison Square Garden with Marilyn Monroe coming out and singing. And, you know, it was a spectacle as well. And there were some people who felt that at that time, it was beneath the dignity of the office. So I don't think this is anything new.
24:04 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah, although it was capped by that comment, which of course then changes the whole tone. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news, and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the
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27:43 Kara Swisher? Let's talk a little bit about TMZ's beginnings and some of its earliest scoops. For people who don't know, TMZ developed a reputation for publishing scoops based on court documents. This was your background, by the way, police records and inside sources. In 2006, you broke the news of Mel Gibson went on an antisemitic rant during a DUI arrest. In 2009, TMZ broke the news of Michael Jackson's death report. ...based on information from a paramedic. You told me in 2009, this is when I was writing about you, quote, "We're a news organization that's aggressive and connected in town, and that's the same skill set as covering the Iran-Iraq war." Talk about this approach, because consequential stories appear on the site alongside photo series dedicated to sexy snapshots and celebrity butts. I have no problem with that.
28:25 Kara Swisher? But talk a little bit about this, because your background was legal, and so it makes sense for you to go in that direction.
28:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, you know, I guess in crude terms, it's kind of high-low. There are a lot of media outlets that have a voice, that you have a certain voice and you stay in that lane. And I always thought there's something wrong with that. It's too narrow, that if you have a voice, it means that there may be a really good story that's outside of your lane there, and you don't do it. You gotta keep your voice. We never had a voice. What I wanted us to have was a personality. And a personality is somebody can be really serious at one time, funny another time, even snarky at another time.
29:14 Speaker 01 But when you have a personality, it opens it up to doing all sorts of things and not being confined to that one lane. So from the beginning, at least my goal, was that TMZ should have that personality. And I was worried, to be honest with you, when we broke the Mel Gibson story, you know, people started writing stories about us, saying, "Oh, we're a serious outlet that is competing with so-and-so and so-and-so." And I thought, my God, we just don't want to lose our personality. So I doubled down to make sure that we kept doing those things, so we didn't get pigeonholed into that voice.
29:53 Kara Swisher? What would be that personality, then? I mean, obviously, you and I talked about this back then. You were accused of paying sources. You recently denied paying for tips and interviews, though in 2009, you told me that you will, quote, "pay a tip fee now and then." At one point, you reportedly paid $90,000 for a video of former NFL player Ray Rice punching his then-fiancee in a casino. Talk a little bit about this, because I think people think you're doing that in DC right now. Like paying for tips.
30:20 Speaker 01 You know, look, I've seen these stories and there was a story that came out that we're paying a hundred thousand dollars per tip in Washington DC. It's ridiculous.
30:30 Kara Swisher? I'll give you some for a lot less, Harvey. I have a lot of tips.
30:34 Speaker 01 Hey Kara, we could get them for free.
30:36 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah.
30:37 Speaker 01 And, and look, I was a news reporter in Los Angeles for 15 years before I started any of this. And broke lots and lots of stories. And it's not about, oh, what do you do? Do you, do you call random police stations up and say, hey, if you give me something, I'll give you $10,000? I mean, if we did that, you would hear about that over the last 21 years. And you haven't because we don't. And, you know, the way that we get almost all of our stories is relationships. That, you know, we established relationships with lawyers in town, with every publicist
31:19 Speaker 01 in town, with celebrities, with police departments. And they will work with you, and I knew this when I was at KCBS in Los Angeles. They will always work with you if you're honest with them. And if you break trust...
31:34 Kara Swisher? What would you call paying for a video? How would you look at that? I know people pay for photography, I know. Is it akin to that? How would you describe it? Because, as you know, many standards of journalism is you do not pay for tips, although lots of people have.
31:49 Speaker 01 We don't do that. We don't live off of that. What we do pay for is video and photos. And we have done that from day one, and guess what? So does everybody else. And I kind of loved the fact that there were a lot of news organizations that came out and said, oh my God, TMZ is paying for videos. And I loved that because it was an advertisement to other people saying, hey, contact TMZ. Because they pay for it too. There are photo agencies that they license things with all the time. And we had a guy here whose father-in-law sold a picture of a burning apartment building to the LA Times for a hundred bucks and an LA Times hat. And that was... 25 years ago. So, everybody pays for photos, everybody pays for video.
32:34 Speaker 01 What you don't pay for are interviews. Because then you're incentivizing people to make things up, to make it worthwhile. And, let me just say, that we get tons of tips. Because, you know, I have reporters here. And, the idea is, establish relationships, work with people. When we get, you know, when we broke, oh, I don't know, Bobby Christina's death, Whitney Houston's daughter. You know, it's like, what are we gonna do? Call people up randomly and say, "Hey, we're gonna pay you." Somebody's gonna say, "How dare you." And it's gonna come out that we offered it.
33:10 Kara Swisher? Right, no, I got that.
33:11 Speaker 01 And, you're not hearing it, because it doesn't happen.
33:14 Kara Swisher? To be fair, I often go to your site, because I think it's accurate, actually. And so, I don't find a lot of errors on your part. But, where are the standards? Do you have to have different standards in Washington? I know you guys got in trouble when lame Payne's body, when you had a cropped picture of that. And you got a backlash, and you pulled the photos. And you told Hollywood Reporter in 2008, "Everyone has standards, it's something that really matters to us and deal with every day." We turned down a lot of stories. What is the standards? And, is it different in Washington, or not? Or just, it's the same standards everywhere?
33:46 Speaker 01 It's the same standard. And, look, we have researchers, we have producers, we have lawyers. We vet things here. We don't just throw things up on our website, or on social media. Things get vetted. And, look, we have debates all day long. There is a lot that comes across our desks, where we say, "No way, are we gonna do that." And, this has gone on since day one. So, what you see on the site is a fraction of the various tips and stories that we get. Some of which may feel intrusive, may cross the line with privacy, may look like bedroom police,
34:31 Speaker 01 or may just have that kind of yuck factor, that we talk about all the time. We do it every day.
34:36 Kara Swisher? Right, what, is there things you won't cover? Do you have a determination with your reporters there or elsewhere?
34:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, if, you know, if we get a call from somebody who works, say, at a hospital, we cut it off because we are not going to violate HIPAA. So that's just cut off. If somebody from, say, a police department calls up and says, I'm going to give you a tip, but will you pay us $200? It's over. We cut it off. We don't do that. You know, if it's bedroom police, we don't do it. If it's a telephoto lens of something where you could not otherwise see it and it feels intrusive, that happens a lot. And a lot of times, we'll get photos from photo agencies, as do others, and, you know,
35:25 Speaker 01 you look at it and say, how was this picture taken and where was it taken? You know, and there are some things that feel unfair. And I can't give you a benchmark on what unfairness means, but we talk about that a lot.
35:42 Kara Swisher? We'll be back in a minute.
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37:56 Kara Swisher? Let's shift to DC again. Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert, and I got you, a very well-known White House reporter.
38:04 Speaker 04 Hi Harvey, Ashley Parker from The Atlantic. I am old enough, unfortunately, to remember when it was a scandal when Obama wore a tan suit. But seeing that scandals have been, I don't know, our bar for scandal and controversy has changed so much. My question to you is, what is your gold standard for a TNZ scandal? Write me your ideal fanfiction of what you will find here in our city. Thanks.
38:36 Kara Swisher? She's a great reporter.
38:37 Speaker 01 She's great. I can't, I will tell you this, that I have told Jacob, in fact, I talked to Jacob about it today, and Charlie, that get in touch with members of Congress, and let's find out what's going on here. And if there is a really interesting story. I never said scandal, because it doesn't have to be scandalous to be a really important story. I mean, let's go back to the first big story, Mel Gibson. I wouldn't call that a scandal. It was just a story. And so we're looking for the same thing. And I've told Jacob and Charlie that one of the big things you gotta do is network and get to know these people and get them to trust you.
39:22 Kara Swisher? Basics of reporting.
39:23 Speaker 01 I know, and we're laying the groundwork.
39:25 Kara Swisher? Well, I used to tell people, they're like, how do you get so many scoops? I said, I called more people than you. They're just, I don't know what to tell you. I know more people. I keep asking questions. It's not that hard.
39:33 Speaker 01 And that is it. I'll tell you, I'll tell you, Kara, the biggest friend that you have to me in journalism is the telephone. That, you know, you should make 100 phone calls a day when you are searching for stories. And 97% or 97% of the time, they're gonna say, I got nothing. But the more you persist, the more you're gonna strike gold. And, I mean, look, you know, we did a story not too long ago about these voicemails, these anti-Semitic voicemails that Congressman Jared Moskowitz was getting. That was a good story. I wouldn't call it a scandal, but it's a reality.
40:13 Kara Swisher? Yeah, but interestingly, last month TMZ posted a story with the headline, "Ice Drags Man Out of the Hospital in a Mob of Angry Protesters About a Nigerian Man Who Was Arrested at a Brooklyn Hospital." TMZ quoted an ICE spokesman who said the man had previous arrests for assault and criminal drug possession and tried to hit officer in the car. But the White House chided TMZ on its media offenders page, saying, quote, "The click-obsessed cuckold at TMZ published a misleading caption that demonized our heroic ICE agents while admitting crucial context about an illegal alien scumbag." Wow. Talk about this. What do you make the White House's response to this, which was a basic story in the Trump administration's ongoing attacks? I'm sure you don't mind being called a cuckold and thus, but still.
40:57 Speaker 01 Unsurprising, I guess. Join the crowd. You know, it kinda makes me feel like we've accomplished something if they've taken notice and gotten angry because they get angry a lot. Look, I, you know, if I have a fundamental issue with this administration, that is...
41:17 Speaker 01 That there is not reverence for the Constitution. I think that the administration looks at the Constitution as an obstacle. And I think that that is at the heart of everything right now. That, you know, it used to have, you know, people had reverence for it. And now it's like, how do we, you know, turn it on its head and get around it?
41:44 Kara Swisher? Yeah, story about habeas corpus, incredible.
41:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:47 Kara Swisher? Incredible.
41:47 Speaker 01 And, and there are many stories, many stories like it. I mean, birthright citizenship. I mean, you have to do somersaults to, you know, make the argument. All sorts of things, uh, First Amendment. So, you know, I think that is the root issue that at least I'm personally concerned with. Is that the Constitution, I think, is viewed as an obstacle.
42:09 Kara Swisher? So, does that hurt with your audience that you're going, these are serious subjects? Habeas corpus, ICE, you know, some, and some of it's fun, but a lot of it is quite serious. Cause they're like, when's Taylor getting married and where? I'd like to know that.
42:22 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, that's clearly more important than the Constitution, right?
42:26 Kara Swisher? No, no. No, you can have both at once. But do you worry about that at all?
42:32 Speaker 01 Well, you just answered it by saying you can have both at once. And I think that's the point, that you can-
42:37 Kara Swisher? Have you gotten pushback, I guess, from your audience? Maybe what?
42:40 Speaker 01 Um, look, you know, we have a blog role. And the idea for me at least with the blog role was, you don't like this, scroll down, you might like that. And we kind of do it with our television show, with pacing our TV show. That there may be a subject that somebody doesn't particularly care about, but they know something else is coming down the pike in 30 seconds. And so it's the way we program as well. And the great thing, for example, of social media for us, and that's really where I'm pivoting our business, is that it's not all or nothing. That if you do something and take chances and service a group here and a group there, somebody's not going to go away.
43:22 Speaker 01 They're just not going to look at a story that maybe we did on air- So to me, that's the beauty of social media.
43:29 Kara Swisher? Right, so you don't have to mean, you mean things to different people.
43:31 Speaker 01 That's right.
43:32 Kara Swisher? Now, I'm gonna ask you about that social media in a second, but TMZ is covering the Los Angeles mayoral race and former reality star Spencer Pratt. You seem to warm up to him as a mayoral candidate, especially after you two talked privately last month. But you're also very critical to his campaign. I thought you did some of the best reporting about his hijinks with his house. He finished third behind Mayor Karen Bass and City Council member Nithya Raman. And he won't be advancing to the runoff. Politico called TMZ's coverage of Pratt relentless and said the race was a measure of your political power as a California kingmaker. How do you take to that?
44:05 Speaker 01 So that's an interesting one, that there are people who think that we were pushing Spencer Pratt's candidacy. And there are people who thought we were trying to sink it. And, you know, I talked to Spencer and he was not happy with our coverage, that he was not living in that trailer, that he seemed to say he was.
44:27 Kara Swisher? Yeah, he was at a hotel. He was at a lovely hotel.
44:30 Speaker 01 The best hotel in LA.
44:31 Kara Swisher? Right.
44:32 Speaker 01 And, and they weren't happy that we broke the story that he had signed a deal with a reality show production company. But at the same time, you know, I was really, really critical of Karen Bass. And, and, you know, I think that kind of gets to the problem we have in this country, which is you're either 100% for somebody or you're their enemy. And that's the way it seems like both sides view things right now. And I don't look at it that way. And, you know, to me, you could find virtues and you can find problems with one person. And it doesn't mean you're against them or for them, just being honest about them.
45:15 Speaker 01 And I think what's happened in the media is that it's become so tribal that if, you know, if you don't like Trump, there's nothing he can do that's good. And if you love Trump, there's nothing he can do that's bad. And if you stray from that, you're a traitor. And I reject that. And, you know, what we did With Spencer Pratt was we just tried to view him as honestly as we could.
45:41 Kara Swisher? Oh, I think you sunk him. I think your reporting sunk him.
45:44 Speaker 01 Do you really?
45:44 Kara Swisher? I do. I didn't think you meant it. I think it was all true. But it was like he had this sort of snakes on a plane campaign that was a little more less popular than it seemed. You know what I mean with voters, I guess? And so I think those people were like, oh, wait, he's living in a trailer. Oh, wait, he's doing a reality show. I think those two stories were critical. In understanding, maybe this guy's in it for himself versus the city of Los Angeles.
46:08 Speaker 01 I mean, I was getting calls from celebrities saying, oh, come on, lay off him, man. He's the savior for Los Angeles.
46:15 Kara Swisher? I know.
46:16 Speaker 01 And, you know, there were people, the people who were watching the AI ads, you know, with Spencer Pratt as Batman. And, you know, again, it's sort of like you're a savior or you're a fool and an enemy. And things are in the middle most of the time.
46:33 Kara Swisher? When I say sunk him, you sunk him with the truth is what it was. You know what I mean? To me, that's what it was like. This is what he did. Take it for what you will, but that's what he's doing. And I thought that was devastating to him. But he did it. I don't think you did it, you know, necessarily. You have, of course, Rupert coming into California with his New York Post version. Do you see that as your real competitor? Who, from your perspective, is your competitor with all this?
46:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, I've never viewed other media outlets as competitors, and I'll tell you why. That if the New York Post or People Magazine or any of them break a story,
47:09 Speaker 01 it creates interest and we can, we can seize that and we can find an angle to it. And, you know, nobody looks at just, if you're into pop culture or celebrity news, nobody looks at just one outlet. They'll look at five or six. And if somebody finds a story that's really good and we can find angles to it, it helps us. And it also creates more interest in the universe of celebrity or pop culture. So I don't view any of them as competitors. You know, we need to do our share of breaking. Stories and following stories, but you know, if somebody else breaks a story, I don't view it as a zero sum game.
47:54 Kara Swisher? No, you can follow it.
47:55 Speaker 01 At all.
47:56 Kara Swisher? It's good to break stories. So how are you going to cover the midterms? Do you have any like, there's a lot going on. There's a lot happening.
48:02 Speaker 01 I think it's going to be mostly up to Jacob and Charlie. And you know, it really depends on, you know, how things shape up. I'm not going to be sending people to Texas and, you know, and other battlegrounds. You know, look, we're not equipped to cover the midterms the way a CNN or Fox News or any of them. I mean, we just don't have the resources. And that's not our sole mission. So we're going to do what we can do and things that we think are interesting. But it's not going to be at the level of what you're seeing elsewhere. It's just not.
48:39 Kara Swisher? Are there politicians you find really interesting from a pop culture point of view? I'd imagine AOC would be one. There's a couple, right? Platner, if he wins, certainly will be one. Are there any you find more interesting than others?
48:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, AOC to me is fascinating. Wondommy has become really interesting to me. I am so intrigued by the way he's been handling things. And the way he got out there with it with the NBA finals. He, it was masterful. I mean, it was, it was masterful.
49:10 Kara Swisher? He's a pop culture figure. He knows pop culture.
49:12 Speaker 01 Totally, totally.
49:14 Kara Swisher? Anyone else that you find? Is there a Republican besides Trump that's interesting? I mean, as I told you, I said JD Vance of the charm of a Cybertruck, so.
49:23 Speaker 01 You know, I, I find Tim Burchett really interesting. And, and, and you know, some people think he's too out there. But I, I think Tim Burchett is really, look, you know, I'm kind of interested since you covered the party scene. Can I ask you a question?
49:38 Kara Swisher? Sure, please.
49:39 Speaker 01 Who's more fun, Democrats or Republicans?
49:42 Kara Swisher? In the old days, Republicans were more fun. Although, some Democrats. Now, their Republicans are exhausting. They're so sucked up to Trump, and then they tell you how much they hate him behind the scenes, and then you're like, "Oh, I can't stand you." You know what I mean? I don't think anyone's fun anymore, Harvey. I don't think anyone gets along behind the scenes and in front of the scenes. Before, it was like, "Fight by day, get along by night" kind of thing. So I think the comedy. I remember covering something, which you can't believe to this day, but Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg were very good friends. And they were. And the two of them had a relationship that was... There's so much massive disagreement. It's hard to remember those days. But there was something really nice covering people.
50:25 Kara Swisher? And I don't mean that they're secretly got along, they actually got along. And so, it was much more interesting now. It's exactly that man insulting Michelle Obama all fucking day long. I would not like to cover that. I had thought about trying to go to that thing, and then I thought, "I don't have the fucking energy for it." And I'm glad I didn't. It looked like a ridiculous, bread-and-circus spectacle. So it wasn't interesting, it wasn't insightful. Everything implicit is explicit now, and that's the difficulty of covering it. It's all performative, and that's sad.
50:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'll tell you, Charlie and Jacob, again, I'm sorry for crowing about them, but they have been able to get humor, and frankly, more with Republicans than Democrats.
51:10 Kara Swisher? Well, they have more to make fun of you.
51:12 Speaker 01 And I don't know why, but that's just been...
51:15 Kara Swisher? Democrats are pretty pissed right now.
51:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, maybe that's... And that's probably it. But that's one of the things that they're trying to navigate, is just getting them to open up some. And Charlie's got a bag of tricks.
51:28 Kara Swisher? Things are dead serious, feel more dead serious now, especially because of the assault on the Constitution. You know what I mean? That's why. Eventually, when that's not there, maybe it'll get back, but I don't know. Let's end by looking at TMZ's continuing evolution and its future. Early on in history, it had a reputation as the website celebrities and their publicists feared. How has it changed? Do you think you've softened your approach, less ruthless? How do you look at your relationship to... Hollywood right now.
51:53 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, if you look back 20 years, there were things we did back then that I think, looking back, feel harsh. And we have kind of tempered from the very beginning, for sure. More generally, I, you know, I'm spending a lot of time pivoting our business. That I think television has been great for us. And, you know, knock on wood, our shows are still doing well. But I don't know how long television's gonna last. There's a shelf life there.
52:27 Kara Swisher? Podcasts are television, so everything is television.
52:30 Speaker 01 Yeah. And so, you know, we're pivoting our business. We're live streaming our shows. We are really investing in YouTube. We've hired a whole group of Gen Z'ers and Gen Alphas. I have a bunch of 21-year-olds in the office now. And they are doing amazing work under the leadership of a guy whose name I don't want to mention because I don't want somebody to steal him. But we've really done something really important, I think, in that area with social media and Gen Z and Gen Alpha. And that's where the business is going. And, you know, look, when we started TMZ, you know, it felt like everybody was trying to hang on for dear life to what they had.
53:15 Speaker 01 And it felt like something new to have a website where you were actually covering news at the time. It's not new anymore, Kara. And so, where do you go next? And I think you evolve or you die.
53:28 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
53:28 Speaker 01 And that's just the way it is.
53:30 Kara Swisher? I want to play a clip from an interview we did in 2009 when I was at the Wall Street Journal. I was in your new office in West Hollywood and we were talking about the expansion from a website to a TV show. Let's listen.
53:41 Speaker 05 Forget about the technical stuff, which I still don't understand. And just think of it as, how can you tell a story that's going to be fun for people or interesting to people? And, you know. And you just think of it as storytelling. And you look at each medium and say, this medium has the ability, or you have the ability to do it in a certain way that you don't in the other and versa.
54:01 Kara Swisher? Right.
54:02 Speaker 05 And you just look at it as storytelling. It's all about. It's not like a big secret. It's just how do you tell good stories on both?
54:10 Kara Swisher? So really, you look good there, leaning on the couch, lounging upon that couch.
54:13 Speaker 01 A lot younger.
54:14 Kara Swisher? That'll sound me too. Is it still that same thing, storytelling?
54:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, you know, it's funny. When we started the TV show, you know, a lot of people were telling me, you got to have an anchor and you got to have reporters. And, you know, you do it the conventional way where an anchor throws to a reporter who does a story and then comes back and throws back to the anchor. And it's like, that's the last thing Hollywood needed was a sixth entertainment show like that. What we said was, look, we have a room full of people who work on these stories for a living. So why not throw them all in the center of the room? And they'll be the voice, they'll be the storytellers. And what was different is they live the stories. They know the stories. They're not reading off a teleprompter.
55:04 Speaker 01 So we could have a P A or an editor or a news producer. And they go back and forth and in a very kind of casual way. But it can be really compelling if you do it right and you edit it right, where it's a different form of telling a story. And, you know, if there's any one thing that worked for us with the TV shows, it's that.
55:29 Kara Swisher? Last question. On an episode of Matt Bellany's podcast, The Town, he interviewed a former TMZ staffer about his relation to Hollywood's impact on news. One observation was that mainstream media has become more like TMZ. Do you see that, in that regard, interesting? Do you see people coming around to you? And is that a good thing? Necessarily.
55:50 Speaker 01 Um, I don't know that I can answer whether it's a good thing or not, but definitely. I was watching one of the morning shows or a clip of one of the morning shows the other day. And one of the anchors was saying to a celebrity she was interviewing, "Look, I have to ask you about these rumors that you're dating so and so."
56:10 Kara Swisher? Jennifer Lopez, go ahead.
56:12 Speaker 01 A bunch of them do this.
56:14 Kara Swisher? Kara already, I know, I agree with you.
56:16 Speaker 01 And it's like, you know.
56:17 Kara Swisher? Some people say.
56:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, and it's like, oh, I had to ask this question. Oh, I'm really sorry, but, you know, people are saying this. So they're all apologetic, but they're doing the same thing.
56:28 Kara Swisher? Right, I would agree. Just ask it outright and say.
56:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:31 Kara Swisher? Don't answer it if you don't want to.
56:32 Speaker 01 Exactly. No, is it, I can't answer whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I don't know.
56:36 Kara Swisher? Yeah. So five years from now, what does TMZ look like then? Is it on YouTube? Is it on, where is it?
56:42 Speaker 01 Well, we are pivoting to social media in a big way.
56:46 Kara Swisher? And that's widespread, so you're including YouTube, etc.
56:50 Speaker 01 Yes.
56:50 Kara Swisher? You don't see yourself going on Netflix, for example?
56:53 Speaker 01 Well, we've done over eighty documentaries and we've worked with multiple streamers and documentaries are a big part of our business. And we've done some that I'm really, really proud of. And serious documentaries, I mean, we did a documentary on nine eleven, the fifth plane, which nobody knew about. And there was a fifth plane that was targeted. And when you watch it, you'll believe it. But we've done, you know, lots of documentaries, some of which are, I think, really important. So documentaries are a big part of what we do. Social media is a big part of what we do. You know, the only reason I'm kind of hesitating is things are moving so quickly that I don't
57:37 Speaker 01 know what it's going to be like in five years. Is AI going to so transform things that even what you digest now on social media is going to be kind of obsolete? I don't know. It's moving so fast. And you, you know better than anybody.
57:52 Kara Swisher? Well, we'll see. I'll be retired by then, but.
57:54 Speaker 01 I may not even be alive by then, Kara.
57:57 Kara Swisher? I want to tell you something you said 10 years ago. I'm going to read this to you. When I interviewed you back in 2016 at Code, and I had you on stage there, you predicted that in 10 years, there wouldn't be internet or television, there would be something called intervision.
58:10 Speaker 01 Interview.
58:11 Kara Swisher? Elements of both. That sounds about right.
58:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, I remember that.
58:17 Kara Swisher? Do you have a new word? Intervision?
58:18 Speaker 01 I know. I remember that day when we were together talking about that. Yeah, I mean, what I was always thinking was, look, you know, you have a television, and, you know, you use one clicker to watch TV shows, and then you use another to go online. But there are elements of what you get online with photo galleries, and, you know, videos and related links and everything else, that you could integrate into the various shows that you have on television. And it's producing a richer experience using assets from digital and linear. And I always thought these two could, and I still believe will,
58:59 Speaker 01 merge. I realize the name is kind of lame, but it's the best I could do on the spot.
59:04 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, Harvey, you're an innovator. I really enjoy it. I love what you're doing in DC. I just love it. You keep mixing it up, and I really appreciate it.
59:12 Speaker 01 Right, right back at you. And again, I'm sorry, I'm going to say it for everybody. You are one of the best hosts I have ever seen.
59:22 Kara Swisher? Thank you.
59:23 Speaker 01 What you did on your CNN special, just the way you interacted, I know, and you know what, and every time I tell you that, you think I'm either being insincere, or you tell me to shut up.
59:33 Kara Swisher? No, I don't. It was good. It was good.
59:34 Speaker 01 You were fabulous.
59:35 Kara Swisher? I was better on TV than I thought. Well, we'll see what happens next. Maybe I'll come on your intervision soon enough. All right, Harvey, thank you so much.
59:43 Speaker 01 Okay, Karen.
59:48 Kara Swisher? Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsap, Madeline LaPlante-Duby, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Julia Sharp, Levine, Rosemarie Ho, and Eamon Whalen. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan. Team music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you won't have to go on spring break with Ted Cruz. If not, we're sending you to Disney World with Lindsey Graham. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.
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