Play It Again: Actor Amanda Seyfried

From Mean Girls to Mamma Mia! to First Reformed, Amanda Seyfried has repeatedly displayed her versatility as a performer. Today, we return to one of our favorite conversations with the illustrious actor. At the top, we discuss her Oscar-nominated portrayal of 1920s and '30s screen star Marion Davies in David Fincher's Mank (6:53), her early years working in the industry (13:13), and the joy of making Mean Girls (15:26). Then, she reflects on the parallels between 1930s Hollywood and today (36:08), how she found her footing (41:51), and where she'd like to go in the years ahead (45:32). Thoughts or future guest ideas? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Lemonada.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Stan Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Today, my conversation with actor Amanda Seyfried. Dating back to Mean Girls in 2004, Seyfried has always felt like a performer on the verge. In profiles, her trajectory is often paved with adjectives like ascendant and emerging. A dynamic talent on the precipice of movie stardom. But these descriptions are merely the stuff of glossy magazines. And outside its pages is a singular career that's been building role by role for two decades. Mamma Mia, Dear John, Les Miserables, Big Love,

• 1:20Speaker 01

  her Emmy-winning portrayal as Thirnose founder-turned-federal-prison inmate Elizabeth Holmes in The Dropout. She can play comedy, she can play tragedy, she can do slapstick, she can do straitlace. In her latest two projects, she's mostly doing the latter, though. Those include the new Peacock series Long Bright River, where she plays a police officer in Philadelphia in a neighborhood ravaged by the opioid epidemic. She's also the lead of the new thriller Seven Bales, which opened in theaters earlier this month. There, she plays a theater director battling some repressed trauma as she prepares to mount an opera. We sat down back around the release of Mank, in which she played legendary silent film star Marion Davies.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  She received an Oscar nomination for that performance. And it's one that, in the years since we spoke, I've returned to quite a bit. Sometimes a role meets an actor exactly at the right time. There's some kind of cosmic harmony to it, resulting in a dialogue that Seyfried, I think, needed to have in that moment in her life. And so we have it. We talk about the parallels between the Hollywood of the 20s and 30s and hers. Collaborating with the notoriously meticulous David Fincher, we also talk about motherhood and Mean Girls, and, most importantly, her hopes for the

• 2:44Speaker 01

  years ahead, which, coincidentally, I think have been borne out, some may even say manifested, in these latest two projects. In case you're worried for my health, I'm OK, just a little bit under the weather. I'm gonna blame New York. We'll be back next Sunday with a brand-new episode featuring author, writer, reporter, and podcaster Ezra Klein. Until then, here is Amanda Seyfried's story. It may not be told in the way you'd find it in a magazine, but it's the way I'm glad we told it here on the podcast. Enjoy.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Amanda Seyfried, how are you doing?

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Thank you. I am doing OK. In the grand scheme of things, I feel lucky and positive, and I'm super excited about having two kids and being done with reproducing. I'm in a warm, I'm in a warm place right now, which makes me happy. And I'm also like getting to talk about an experience that I had that was special, and it's being treated like it's special. And the two things don't overlap, usually. I have a special time on every movie for different reasons. This is, this is Fincher.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Why is this so uncommon?

• 4:22Speaker 02

  It's, it's like lightning striking. I have been moseying on through my career, doing things that speak to me, working with new directors, old directors, inspired writers. I've been doing it a long time and I'm always surprised and always looking for a new challenge. And expectations low. And I've worked with the greats. I've worked with great filmmakers. And I never expected to be able to work with David Fincher as well. And that's like lightning striking for me.

• 4:51Sam Fragoso?

  I heard you say something that I wanted to kind of go to, which is that you've always regarded yourself as someone who looks especially contemporary.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:01Sam Fragoso?

  Which is why you were a little anxious about doing this role. How did you get over that hurdle for yourself?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  I had to trust that once I knew the words as well as I could possibly know the words, once I memorized fully, they were going to help me. Because I sound contemporary. I watch interviews back. It's very difficult to listen to my voice when I'm speaking as Amanda. Because there are ums, you knows, likes, uh's everywhere sprinkled throughout. That's a contemporary thing. Some might say lazy.

• 5:39Sam Fragoso?

  I wouldn't call it lazy.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  I did think that my voice and the way I spoke in the movie was going to be a challenge. And it turns out, no, I just had to trust the words, the dialogue. And then the accent helped. You know, everything builds on each other and this new thing is born. And you just have to trust that. I am an actor. I've been doing it. I only want to do it. Why am I so anxious?

• 6:06Sam Fragoso?

  Well, to relieve some anxiety, I want to assure you that we have very diligent editors that will help you and I out with any goofs or gaffs or ums and ahs, any cursing, which you're allowed to do on here, by the way.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, you never know anymore. I mean, not that having kids has changed anything for me.

• 6:28Sam Fragoso?

  Is that sarcasm?

• 6:29Speaker 02

  No, it like really hasn't. You would think I would be better about my language around my daughter, who's almost four. By the way.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  I guess my husband and I, we were walking on the river yesterday during our break. And she, and we were like, ah, shit happens. And we really wanted her to be able to say shit happens. Because she's not gonna say it. She's, she's very, made it very clear to us that she will not say bad words. Even if she doesn't know which words are bad. It's like she knows, subconsciously. And I don't know where that comes from. She's like, no, I'm not gonna say that. I used to take videos of her saying fox, because she would say fuck. And, and I thought it was the funniest thing, and she won't say it anymore. Because she gets, I guess the reaction she gets isn't good enough. And she knows that it's a bad word, and she doesn't wanna say bad words. She's not my child.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  Anyway, I thought it was so weird. That, any, but the point is, I haven't, I haven't changed enough. You know, I, I haven't, I don't set a great example, because I do, I do curse. You would think I wouldn't.

• 7:37Sam Fragoso?

  This is not like the 1950s. I don't, I feel like it's okay to curse.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, what is a bad word, anyway?

• 7:43Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Am I gonna get slapped on the hand from the principal of her school if she says it?

• 7:48Sam Fragoso?

  You almost seem like melancholic that she won't say fox anymore.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz, you know, I do a lot to get a laugh. I do a lot to laugh. No, I, not really. I really don't exploit her often.

• 8:03Sam Fragoso?

  That will be the headline from this podcast. The headline will be Amanda Doesn't Exploit Daughter Often.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Just when it really counts. Just when she's having a really bad day.

• 8:14Sam Fragoso?

  You said you became a parent. You have two kids now. And it hasn't changed anything. And I think there is traditionally this expectation, regardless of career, but especially in acting, that someone has a kid and their life alters course. And yet, to you, you're saying the course is, you know, I haven't deviated.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  There are things that have changed, that the natural turn of events that happens when you become a parent. You are responsible for two small human, a small human, a dozen small humans, however many you choose to have, and...

• 8:50Sam Fragoso?

  A dozen seems like a lot.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Not to some people. Always blows my mind, always blows my mind. I mean, I can't, my body can't go through another, another, that thing that happens, that instinct takes over and, and you, the priority just shifts, and hopefully, hopefully, and my essence doesn't change. The things, the way I speak doesn't change, clearly. The things that I'm passionate about don't change. I have less time to do them because I want to have less time to do them because I'd rather be with them, with my kids. Of course, you make sacrifices and of course, you make compromises, but you don't, you don't stop doing the thing that inspires you and moves you altogether. You just, it changes a little bit.

• 9:31Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Like, I'm not gonna work, I'm not gonna do three projects a year. Hopefully, I'll do one or two. And that's okay. That's really important for them to see us happy. Plus, I have my mom who lives with us full-time and is their nanny. So, it's easy for me to say that. Then again, my dad worked, my mom worked, and we went to daycare. And I turned out pretty sane and, and happy.

• 9:52Sam Fragoso?

  You seem sane and you seem happy, all things considered.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Thanks, so do you.

• 9:56Sam Fragoso?

  Do I?

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, you seem level-headed and you have a very healthy amount of humility, it seems, from the five minutes I've, we've been speaking, or ten?

• 10:06Sam Fragoso?

  I'm wondering, because so much of this film is kind of interrogating Hollywood and, and the art of being an actor and, and what it means to be an actor and the industry as a whole. What did this part make you think about within your own career?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  I have been talking about this movie since October. We finished making it in February, just before lockdown, or just before we shut down, kind of, the whole world. And in talking about the movie, not as much portraying Marion on set, I have reflected back, I have taken a few trips down my past and I see some similarities between myself and Marion. Of course, you, you, you do that right away when you get a role like, like this, when you're portraying someone real, you, you, you try to find the similarities right away, you try to find the Humanity, no matter who it is, because that's how you connect. That's how you're gonna play the person, right? That's step one for a lot of actors.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  And in terms of my, like, we, the similarities are that we were both misunderstood a lot. I was misunderstood for a shorter amount of time because I played my first big role was Karen in Mean Girls. And as great a role that, as that was, and as huge of a movie that was and what it did for my career. It also was the perfect vehicle to pigeonhole me. And so I really fought against that almost immediately. It's not like I had every opportunity falling at my feet or anything. But I, I worked really hard to fight against that. And for Marion, and I don't think, I think she just wanted to work. And also she had Hearst trying to steer her in a direction that he thought she deserved. When she actually really wanted to be a comedian, continued being a comedian.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  She was great at, that was, that was her niche. Like, that was where she belonged and that's where she was happiest. So there's some similarities there, but also in just generally being a woman in this industry. It doesn't look that much different in the thirties. I mean, we all know that, we all see that. It's, it's better, Hollywood wants to be better, for sure.

• 12:14Sam Fragoso?

  There's an aspiration.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wasn't an aspiration back then.

• 12:17Sam Fragoso?

  No.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  But it is now, so that's good. That's a major shift. Yeah, I was, I was mistreated in many, many ways. I just wanted to work. I wanted to work and I wasn't gonna step on anybody's toes and I wasn't gonna say no when I was uncomfortable. And I was just gonna keep my head down and, and work. There are some situations that I was in that, you know, nobody should be in when they're seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years old. Or thirty-five. But that's the reality.

• 12:45Sam Fragoso?

  Did you know you were being mistreated at that age, at nineteen?

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Yes, I knew consciously, I knew that it wasn't super kosher. And I had discussions with my inner circle about it. Not my business inner circle, my personal inner circle. And I didn't do anything about it. I didn't fight back. I, I just, I took what I could get, really. And I'm talking about being made to feel like I didn't really have a choice or I'd upset somebody.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  I wish more people had been looking out for me in these productions. And it's nothing major. I came, I came out of all the power struggle that, you know, I didn't, I wasn't taken advantage of in any extreme way. I came out unscathed in that way, thank God, because I don't know how I would have been able to deal with that. But, but I, but you know, I, I wasn't, I wasn't respected the way I should have been respected. And I let people disrespect me and I paid the consequences and I can talk about it because I think things are changing. I think having intimacy coaches, where were they?

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Where, why was nobody, like the costumers on set were super helpful, but it's not up to them. It's up to the people way further at the top to make sure that young women, young men weren't feeling like they were being objectified and having to speak up when it was scary to, shouldn't be scary. There should be an open dialogue. I think there is now. I really, I really do think so. And there are a lot of people that are comfortable doing anything and there are a lot of people that aren't. And I think it's finally coming to a point where everybody's getting on the same page before this discomfort starts happening and you start feeling like you're taken advantage of.

• 14:43Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I, I, I'm sorry. It's embarrassing. How many of those bad decisions or bad decision making came from men in positions of power? It's hard to reconcile also because I know many people listening are huge fans of your work and even thinking about Mean Girls where you're 19 years old in this movie.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Seventeen.

• 15:07Sam Fragoso?

  So at 17, you're in this movie and, and part of that movie is like the absolute comedic genius and joy that you bring to it.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 15:19Sam Fragoso?

  And yet at the same time. There is this other reality happening where you are feeling discomfort.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Well, it wasn't it wasn't Mean Girls where I I felt 100% free and it was ju- I mean, Mean Girls was the perfect first movie. It was it was soon after that that I was just thrust into this world and because before Mean Girls, I was on a soap opera and I just auditioned and I got it.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  And then I lived in LA and then I was up for all this stuff and I was getting all this stuff and it was great, but but I that that the memory of that movie is pure and my mom was around too, so you better believe I was safe. I felt really taken care of and yeah.

• 16:05Sam Fragoso?

  This may be a silly question, but do you remember that first day on set?

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, very clearly, the whole experience started with Lacey Chabert and her kindness. And she welcomed me in to her trailer and we would just listen to Dido and have the vase candle going. So anytime I hear it or smell it, it's Lacey. And I just remember Mark Waters just treating me like I'd been doing this forever in a nice way. And he knew I was anxious and I was doing the weather report with my with the rain tower and I'd never seen a I'd never seen a movie camera, let alone a rain tower or a huge crew outside of this high school. People laughing at my performance, everything about Mark Waters had this giant bursting laugh and I

• 16:55Speaker 02

  I'll never forget that either. There are so many things that just cemented into my soul with that movie because it was such a positive experience. And everybody was so wonderful. We all got along so well and we'd go out to dinner on the weekends and I just I just remember when and there was food. I mean, that was I just see so much food too, when I think about it. I was just eating so much food because it was free. And I'd never even heard the term cross services. As nervous as I was, as curious as I was as to why I was there. I also felt like this was the beginning of something that I was gonna want to do forever. It propelled the move to LA and it made me feel like I belonged there.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  I'm kind of psychic. I have a bit sense. It's like I have ESPN or something. My breasts can always tell when it's gonna rain. Hi, this is Karen Smith. It's 68 degrees and there's a 30% chance that it's already raining. It was such a good experience. Like, I can do this. This is where I belong. And I did. Turns out I did. We, you know, I was 18 when I moved there. I was working that whole year. I mean, I haven't stopped working. But not everybody is great, and that's okay. But people are trying to be better, you know?

• 18:15Sam Fragoso?

  What are you thinking about?

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. It's the general meetings with producers. It's, which is, some of them are great. Some of them are like, okay. General meetings, being a young actress, trotting around in my, as an 18-year-old, going to general meetings and meeting vice presidents of studios and just constantly auditioning and seeing versions of yourself walking around and trying not to feel intimidated and then trying to give someone access to you who you wouldn't otherwise give access to just because you think that that's what they want, because you just want to be liked and hired. You give so much of yourself. You just vomit yourself everywhere just to be understood and liked and respected.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  And it's the wrong way to go about getting it, of course. But that's also how you learn. And I wouldn't give any of those years back. But Hollywood is a cesspool. And if you don't recognize that, you can get in the water and it can be hard to, like, pull yourself out of. But then it's also, there's just, when you're on solid ground, it can be really good. But you have to learn. And, you know, power dynamics and people using their power and taking advantage of, especially women, it exists. You see it all the time. And there's a spectrum. Of course, there's a spectrum. It's not black and white. It never will be.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  But if you make someone uncomfortable, you got a problem.

• 19:46Sam Fragoso?

  But as you were coming up in the early 2000s, that language around discomfort, I mean, it wasn't there.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  No, it wasn't there. There was no way to say, dude, you're making me uncomfortable. Oh, you want my number? Okay. Sure, yeah. You know? It's just, it's black and, it's not black and white. So I guess, I guess if anyone, if my daughter was asking me advice, no one's asking me advice right now. But if my daughter were, I'd say, know your boundaries. What are your boundaries? What makes you comfortable? What doesn't? And walk away if you're not comfortable. Because you're not gonna lose your whole life. You might lose your job, but what is it worth to you? If you don't feel safe? Um, we didn't have that language. You're right. You're totally right. I mean, that was a long time ago. Let's see. I'm so grateful that my daughter is gonna grow up in the next, she'll be a teenager in the 2030s.

• 20:36Sam Fragoso?

  You said something that really, it's such a vivid image that I don't wanna lose, which is that? You moved to LA at 18?

• 20:47Speaker 02

  18, yeah.

• 20:47Sam Fragoso?

  And you said, as you were going from meeting to meeting, looking to find what the next steps were. There were different versions of yourself around town. And, and I, I guess I wanted to know, what, what does that mean?

• 21:02Speaker 02

  There was a template, blonde, bombshell, or it was sexy, or it was young and curious, or whatever it was. Whatever TV show needed the lead, or the, the second lead, or the third lead. But it was usually blonde, big-eyed, glamorous, sexy, like, just, okay. They were templates. They weren't, they weren't real people. Which is fine, you know, that's what, that's what casting calls are like. You know, you, you get your opportunity to show the hu- the humanity in each character, but the, the descriptions on the page that you get, not even emailed to you, mailed to you.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Or you'd have to go and pick up the script from your agency. And mine was in Santa Monica, because you can just imagine how difficult that was.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  And, and, and so I just, yeah, it was intimidating to see blond haired girls who have way better bodies than I did. I have very short torso, so it's hard to, and then my boobs were a little too big for my body, which I, I felt that's how I felt. That's not true. And I was awkward and I had a problem with free food. I would, I was heavier back then, not heavy in a bad way, heavier in a healthy way, although it was because of sugar really and donuts. But it was impossible for me not to look at these women and think, I need to make money so I can get good shoes like them. I need to straighten my hair. I need to, I need to show up, you know, looking better. It turns

• 22:40Speaker 02

  out I didn't need all that. And because right away I got some, I got two jobs.

• 22:47Sam Fragoso?

  We'll be right back with actor Amanda Seyfried.

• 22:57Sam Fragoso?

  One of the best gifts you can give someone is something they'll actually use, not just during the holidays, but months or even years later. Something that's well made, feels good, and becomes part of their everyday life. That's what I like about Quince. I've been wearing their merino wool all season tees for just over a year now, and they've become some of the most reliable pieces in my closet. They're comfortable, easy to layer, and they've held up incredibly. They're exactly the kind of thing I'd want to give to somebody else. Quince makes those everyday staples with premium materials, including 100% Mongolian cashmere, Italian leather, and 14 karat gold. Their cashmere sweaters start at just $60, and they also have wool coats, down jackets, and cashmere accessories for the colder months. And beyond clothing, there's bedding, cookware, luggage, and

• 23:41Sam Fragoso?

  more, so you can find something for just about everyone on your list. By working directly with ethical factories and cutting out the middlemen, Quince prices everything 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Talk Easy. It's the best way to support the show.

• 24:27Sam Fragoso?

  I actually think what you're describing is a deeply human thing, which is that all of us, if we're lucky, turn 18, 19, you're leaving high school, you're a senior in high school. It's a deeply traumatizing and scary time where you're comparing yourself to others and you don't really know who you are. And maybe you're going to university and comparing yourself with your new dorm mates.

• 24:59Sam Fragoso?

  You're just describing it within an industry. How do you negotiate who you are within an apparatus that's trying to tell you who you should be?

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, listen, there's a bajillion answers. And it's hard to, because it is true that you, I mean, how could you possibly know who you are when you're that age? Whether you're in, I mean, college, I can't even imagine. I was surrounded by all those people too. But in a position of, in a professional world, it was, it was a little bit more cutthroat. There was a lot more rejection happening in my, in my university time. I was always surrounded, I have a good family, I have a really good sister. My parents loved me, they always supported me. I think knowing that I, no matter what I did or what had, what happened, I was always going to be loved and supported, no matter what, I think that helps.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  But also, if you don't have that, surrounding yourself with really good friends. I also am still with the agent I was with then. We're family. I don't know, you have to kind of go through it in order to get to the other side. And I think it's always important to remember that it's just, it's everybody's issue with, that they may have, that may seem like they have with you is really about themselves. I mean, that's something I learned and way too late of an age. Someone's got an issue with me, it's... Unless I've done something that I know, you know, unless I've purposely offended somebody, um, that's a really tough, that's a tough thing to answer.

• 26:29Sam Fragoso?

  Is, is there a moment or a film in those early years after Mean Girls where you look back and think, okay, I really liked that one?

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Well, Mean Girls, I mean, I have more appreciation for it now than I did back then when I, when I watched it for the first time, but I, I was still pretty, pretty blown away with the fact that I came out in a way that worked for the, for the movie. And then I hated myself for a while, my acting, but I liked my acting in Dear John, and that was probably the first time. And Mamma Mia, I, I, you know, and it's-

• 27:02Sam Fragoso?

  What did you not like?

• 27:03Speaker 02

  In the, I didn't like, I thought it didn't feel realistic. Like in Big Love and Veronica Mars, I didn't think I was being very realistic. I didn't believe me when I watched it. And I, that comes down to not being able to watch yourself and being way too judgmental, like completely not able to be objective about any of it. Knowing what I was going through while I was shooting it and not, just not being able to be outside of it. And also, I was a little lazy. I, I tend to be a little lazy. So there are always scenes in every movie that I see and I'm like, oof. Ooh, you weren't tapped in there.

• 27:40Sam Fragoso?

  What does that laziness look like as an actor?

• 27:44Speaker 02

  It looks like not, not memorizing your lines. Yeah, I got in trouble on a movie once and I cried in front of the cast. Well, I tried to hold it in and it was because I, I didn't know the line well enough. It deserved to be known and I didn't know it. Cause a lot of the times I make it my own, people, some directors and writers are really okay with you ad-libbing and changing it a little bit. To make it feel as natural as possible. This was not the movie to do it on. And that is absolutely fair. And I'm, I love, the lesson was really important and I'm so grateful for it. I'm not able to be all that. You cannot yell.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Do not yell at me. I will fall into pieces. I'm really bad with, with authority. And yeah, I, it's because I should have known everything. I should have known everything. I should have known it.

• 28:40Sam Fragoso?

  Was the lesson that you should be prepared?

• 28:43Speaker 02

  It went a little deeper. If you're, if we're thinking in like psychological terms, it's, it's about me sabotaging myself a little bit. Because if I work too hard and I fail, then, then it, it feels worse, I guess. I, that's part of it. But it's also just knowing I'll be able to do it in some capacity and that's good enough. No, not really. I need to be looking at my lines the night before, at least, at the very least. Cause I look at them, I read the script, I look at them a bunch and then I let them go. And then we start production and maybe we rehearse, maybe not. If we don't, then I'll learn it the day of, you know, when I'm in the hair and makeup chair and it's not good enough. And I'm a professional in every other way. Why can't I just know everything that's written?

• 29:25Speaker 02

  And if, if, if the director's cool with us changing some lines, we talk about it beforehand.

• 29:30Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Like, I'm too old to, to feel like, to have these nightmares about not knowing the lines and being, being on set. Or even when we're rehearsing a scene on set before we shoot, before they set the lights up and get everything ready for us. I still have that thing where I pull the sides out and I'm pretending to know what the lines are, but I don't know them. And my butt is clenched and I know it's wrong. And why put myself through that? I feel ashamed. And why, if you can control moments of shame, you should. Because they build and they build and they build. And all of a sudden you have like an issue with something and I can control that. I can learn my lines.

• 30:10Sam Fragoso?

  You know, I've been looking down, looking at a notebook that I have. Do you want to see what's on this notebook?

• 30:16Speaker 02

  Do I? Oh, no.

• 30:19Sam Fragoso?

  I'm doing the exact same thing. What you're saying about looking at the script. We all do these things to kind of, I don't know, get by.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:29Sam Fragoso?

  And that's okay.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is, for sure. It is okay.

• 30:33Sam Fragoso?

  I really thought you were gonna laugh at the empty notebook.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  I know, I got worried. I was like, I felt like my first instinct was, did I do something wrong?

• 30:40Sam Fragoso?

  No, I also have eight pages of notes right here on the screen. No, you've done nothing wrong. Why is that your first instinct?

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Adult Child Of.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  It's just, a friend of mine wrote a poem, it's called Adult Child Of, and it was, I sent it to everybody I knew who has in that program, Adult Child Of Alcoholics, or whatever. And I think it's fascinating, the traits that we all share. I mean, most people share these traits on a level. But for us, it's, I mean collectively, it's, we don't want to be in the way. It's an amazing, I should send it to you. Do you have an Instagram? I'm sure.

• 31:23Sam Fragoso?

  I do.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  I'm gonna send it to you because it's so amazing. I mean, I'm not gonna ask you about your upbringing, but, and I'm not gonna say much about mine because my father is like the funniest, sweetest man on the planet. But I grew up and, you know, he struggled and he got better and I have a program and sometimes I dip in, sometimes I dip out. And it's not perfect, but I, at least I know I can recognize it happening, right? The first step is admitting you're having that feeling, or, um, anyway, I'm gonna send it to you. Is that too much information?

• 32:00Sam Fragoso?

  No, it's not. You can send it because I'd like to read it.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  It's also for everybody, but she's an amazing poet, and so I think it should be seen. You know, maybe I should just repost it. How about that?

• 32:11Sam Fragoso?

  If you have it in front of you.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Do you want me to read it? Okay.

• 32:13Sam Fragoso?

  I do.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Adult Child Of. Hey, can I ask you something? And it's no big deal, really. And if you don't have the space or room to answer, I can totally wait until you do. I can wait out here on the couch, no problem. This couch is actually really comfortable and you can leave the window open. I'm not cold at all. And honestly, to be honest, I actually feel better when I'm a little on the chilly side. It keeps me awake and fresh faced. Oh, and thank you for the water bottle. Should I Venmo you? Oh, fuck, I forgot to take my shoes off when I came in. I can totally, no problem. Just mop up my trail from the front door. Is this where you keep the stuff for that? Oh, wow, look at this picture of your mother. She's so beautiful. Tell me about her. Oh, and also, P.S., not to be weird or anything, but that question, well, I just wanted to know, and so you can be honest with me. You can just go ahead and just, I can take it, but just throw it at me, but. Are you mad at me?

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Only because the first few times you texted me to head on over, you you used an exclamation point and well, it's just that tonight you didn't. And then when I got here, you asked me first where I parked instead of saying hi, which is totally cool, actually. And real, real quick, thank you. I'm sorry. Are you OK? You're doing great. I I love you. Here are my hands. You can use them however, however you need. I'm not actually crying. My face just looks, does this fumble thing when I'm tired. Everyone good? Everyone great? Everyone feeling super duper good about themselves? Great, then me too. I said it too fast, but it's just perfect to represent.

• 33:27Sam Fragoso?

  By the way, Amanda.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:30Sam Fragoso?

  The fact that you get at the end of that performance and the first thing you say is, I said it too fast.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  I did.

• 33:39Sam Fragoso?

  The whole time, I'm sitting here thinking, well, this is fantastic.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  I was hitting on myself the whole time. Adult child, uh.

• 33:47Sam Fragoso?

  Why is that the first instinct?

• 33:50Speaker 02

  The first instinct comes from the first way, the way I did it was to do it too fast. Do it too fast to get it out of the way in case I was in the way, in case it was something that you didn't want to hear, in case I made you uncomfortable.

• 34:01Sam Fragoso?

  But I said I wanted to hear it.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I didn't listen to that. Isn't that crazy?

• 34:07Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  I mean, I am listening to it. I'm not always nay saying everything. I do trust people at their word. And I, for the most part, it's, it's just so interesting to get into, into that and the nitty gritty of how people operate because a lot of it comes from the same place of not wanting to be in the way, of not wanting to be a burden, of over apologizing. And, and I, I think I'm better than I was for sure. Oh, my God, could you imagine me when I was 20?

• 34:37Sam Fragoso?

  I can imagine. I, I wish I can convince you that you're not in the way. And I think, I think I should add, for the context of, of people listening, I have sent Amanda. A very taxing microphone. I am in the way, if anything, I am the inconvenient one. I have forced her to download Audacity to do this podcast. She sent two audio tests on two different days. This is, this is telling the story of you.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  It's true, I did.

• 35:13Sam Fragoso?

  And you didn't complain to me?

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Oh, I was complaining. I was complaining, I was complaining to Rose, who works, who was at the, at Relevant, who represent me, my PR people. And I was complaining to her, I wasn't complaining like, this dickhead, why does he expect me to do this? I wasn't saying that, I was saying, why can't I figure this out? I don't understand why this isn't working the way it should be working. I hate technology. I'm not right for this.

• 35:41Sam Fragoso?

  I wrote very like, sort of, I hope, like, human guides to setting it up.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was great.

• 35:48Sam Fragoso?

  But I, I always fear with, with people and they're gonna have that response.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Of course, I, I, I have a very hard time asking people to do anything. I don't want anyone to ever think I'm taking them, advantage of them. Genevieve, my amazing makeup artist and I wanted Renato, who does my hair, to take a picture of my lips, because it's a really good color. And I was outside and I was like, get my lips. And I felt so bad. And he was happy to do it. And I noticed that it was difficult for me, but I did it anyway. And it was, nothing happened.

• 36:25Sam Fragoso?

  Did you feel better after you asked?

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Yes, I did. I did, I felt a lot better. The silly things we do are, are human brains. This is why animals have such an easier time. I mean, they don't get this level of consciousness, but it's fun to talk about this, this stuff. Silly, it can be really silly, but it's always, it's rooted in something real and hopefully generations to come will explore that.

• 36:52Sam Fragoso?

  I think it rooted in something real because this morning I rewatched your scenes in Mank. And there's a scene in this movie, I actually think this scene tells the whole story of the movie. Do you want to set it up before we play the clip?

• 37:08Speaker 02

  I haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm pretty sure you're talking, I'm kidding. Um, the- He's asking Marion, Mank is asking Marion if she can call, get in touch with hers to try to stop the films from being distributed. And she's basically saying, I can't get in touch with him. So he's not going to be of any help. And he's like, can you go back to the studio? She's in the car, leaving, and ask Mayer to pull the phony Sinclair films.

• 37:37Speaker 05

  Marion, I need a favor. It's just a little joke, Willie.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  Sure, Mank, anything.

• 37:42Speaker 05

  I want you to go back and tell Mayer, Willie wants the phony Sinclair films pulled.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Which phony Sinclair films?

• 37:53Speaker 05

  There isn't time to explain. I just need you to tell him that.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Oh, I couldn't, not even as a joke.

• 37:58Speaker 05

  Why not?

• 38:00Speaker 02

  You know I don't lie.

• 38:02Speaker 05

  And that's why he'd believe you. Marion, please, you're not in combat school anymore.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, I know it's silly, but...

• 38:14Speaker 05

  But what? Why not?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Promise you won't laugh?

• 38:17Speaker 05

  I promise I won't laugh.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  My exit.

• 38:22Speaker 05

  What?

• 38:24Speaker 02

  I already made my exit.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  She had made her exit, and that means everything. They're like bookmarks. You can't, she's a movie star. She has left the building. She hasn't even left the building. She's got her trailer on six different carts. And she's, she cannot go back. It'd be so embarrassing. You just don't do that, no matter what. And I think that's funny. It's just a matter of fact. No, that's a fact. No, I can't. I just made my exit, which is the funniest line. She's, it's the funniest line. If you had only seen that scene, you would think that she was a ditz.

• 39:14Sam Fragoso?

  It is so matter of fact, but the stakes on the other side about this kind of like insurgent political campaign that is going to be derailed by a propaganda film, a campaign that is probably in the best interests of like the working people, that it could be helped by a call or a gesture or a car turning around. To me, that one scene represented how fickle everything is in Hollywood.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  It's terrifying. And, and I think she, it's not like she, Marion had, was even in the ballpark of thinking about the repercussions of, of her not assisting. This just doesn't even come to mind. There's no why. It's like, oh, all right. My hands are tied.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  It's like a rule, the rules that were just not like unwritten rules everywhere. It was terrifying minefield to be walking in, especially as a woman.

• 40:17Sam Fragoso?

  When you read that passage in Mank, given your 14, 15 years in this field, do you read that and think, wow, that is profoundly true? That is an accurate sort of snapshot of what it is to be in this strange, peculiar industry?

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Everything I read in that script made me shake my head. Every similarity between now and then, I mean, the political cycle that happens to, to prove that humans do not change. They do not change. They do not evolve fast enough. The fact that we were in the position that we were in economically, everything socially, when I read the script, it just blew my mind. And the way Marion spoke, yes, it's, it's like, oh my God, what are we doing? Cause it's so true. And the way Mank expresses it, the puns, the way the dialogue just moves so quickly and tell, and, and explains things so quickly. And

• 41:21Speaker 02

  it's heartbreaking. Not a great story for Marion, at least for any of them. Except maybe mayor, definitely not for Hearst.

• 41:30Sam Fragoso?

  Did you kind of experience a similar heartbreak upon realizing the nature of this industry?

• 41:40Speaker 02

  In some ways, it doesn't feel like a safe place for people that aren't sure who they are. It doesn't support people. It is cutthroat, will always be cutthroat. People want to make money. You have to be in charge of your own best interest. And if you're not, you're fucked. And that's every industry. Everything comes down to money at the end of the day. But there are always clusters of people, giant clusters of people, that are doing it because they love it. And it's when you, when you swim with those people, then it makes it all worthwhile. And in every industry, the people in charge who are in charge because they want to buy another house in St. Bart's,

• 42:22Speaker 02

  or refurbish their jet, and then there are so many people that want to make good content. They want to have good experiences and they're present in what they do. And they treat people nicely. You'll find them. They're there. That makes me feel sane. That helps. You know, you can offset the things that break your heart a little bit.

• 42:43Sam Fragoso?

  It seems like now you're in charge of where you want to go.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Yes, I am. I'm thirty five years old. I have to be.

• 42:51Sam Fragoso?

  You're making it sound like you're fifty five.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  This is what Hollywood does to you. No, this is what I'm choosing to say. The truth is, it's nice to be out of the ingenue zone and it's nice to be taken seriously. And it's nice to have this, so many opportunities, like so many interesting characters to play. Marion's the first character I played after having kids, who didn't have kids. I'm a mom now, but I'm not just a mom. I mean, in, in, as an artist in the industry, I play a mom. But I'm not just playing a mom. It's not one dimensional like that, luckily. And, and I feel like the character's only getting more complex, which is the way it should be.

• 43:34Sam Fragoso?

  I like to think of this show as a kind of time capsule of who you are in this moment, who I am in this moment. But I want to know, because you just had your second child, right?

• 43:51Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 43:51Sam Fragoso?

  If they are to sort of listen to this one day, and I'm not saying, and I'm not so arrogant to think they will, but let's say they do.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hope they do.

• 44:01Sam Fragoso?

  What do you want them to know about who you are at thirty five? And where you want to go from here?

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Children. I'm thirty five and I think it's important to appreciate where I am. And that's a good step, a step ahead. I do not have any regrets. I'm worth a lot to myself. Life is long, but really fast. And my priority is to be present in everything that I do and to be deliberate in the choices I make and to make sure that I don't hurt anybody and to find the fun wherever possible. And I hope that I have given you space to be who you are, feel the things you feel

• 44:54Speaker 02

  all the while, feeling supported and safe no matter what happens. Is that what you meant?

• 45:02Sam Fragoso?

  I thought it was great.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  I should write that down. It's her birthday soon. She's going to be four in a couple of weeks. And I was thinking, I made her a card when she turned one and I found it the other day. And it was beautiful. And it's still how I feel.

• 45:16Sam Fragoso?

  What did it say?

• 45:17Speaker 02

  That, basically that, but like in a lot of words. I wish I had a photographic memory, but it was beautiful. And it made me like really proud of where I was, where I was even then, you know, feels like forever ago. Four years feels forever ago, three years when I wrote that. But I was the same. I'm not. In looking back, like you weren't that different when you were 21, when you moved here, but you have changed and evolved in giant ways. But your essence is the same. You're still the generosity and the compassion. That's all the same. Or maybe more so, but it's not like you were born without it. And you, you know, you're born with something, right? And that's special. And you kind of know at early, early on, whether or not you want to hurt people or make them feel good.

• 46:02Speaker 02

  So even if you make mistakes and you have shame and all that, like experiences of life just pull you down and you do stupid shit. That doesn't take away from the fact that you're a good person.

• 46:14Sam Fragoso?

  I heard you say that you want to keep acting until you die.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:19Sam Fragoso?

  What does that work look like?

• 46:21Speaker 02

  OK, can I just tell you someone else's career who I've loved?

• 46:24Sam Fragoso?

  Yes.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Jane Fonda. She's still, I mean, she's, she gets better and better, right? I want to get better and better. I want to continue making an impact. Her career has been, she's, seems to love it. I just want to work. I want my kids to be happy and healthy and be proud of their mother. Working, not working too much, but working. You know, I want to make it work for me. People who still show up to work and just like Judy Den, she still shows up to work, knows their lines and kills it. Someone who's, you know, seems not very precious, you know, seems like they can take the joke up until they're dead, you know? It's not easy to age and be a woman, an aging woman in Hollywood. As I've been told, I'm not old, but I've been told it's not easy

• 47:09Speaker 02

  to be under a microscope and aging. And I hope, you know, that doesn't affect me.

• 47:15Sam Fragoso?

  I have a feeling you're going to be just all right.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  OK, I hope so. Thanks.

• 47:18Sam Fragoso?

  That's my, that's my guess. What do I know?

• 47:21Speaker 02

  You know, a lot.

• 47:22Sam Fragoso?

  If you say so, I'll take the compliment. Amanda Seyfried, thank you very much for coming on.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  Sam Fragoso, it's been an absolute pleasure. So this microphone, you want it back, I guess?

• 47:35Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, I think we'll take it back for sure.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  And that's our show. To learn more about Amanda's latest projects, visit our show notes at talkeasypod.com. To hear other talks with Oscar nominated actors, I'd recommend Tom Hanks, Lakey Madison, and Joaquin Phoenix. To hear those and more Lemonada Podcast, listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Be sure to subscribe to Lemonada Premium for bonus content. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple or head to lemonadapremium.com. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janix Abraha. Today's talk was edited by Clarice Guevara and mixed by Andre Lin and Andrew Vastola.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations, Chris Shatley. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media. I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll see you back here on Sunday with Ezra Klein. Until then, stay safe, myself especially, and so long.

• 49:20Speaker 06

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.

• 49:28Speaker 07

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 49:31Speaker 06

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 49:34Speaker 07

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 49:36Speaker 06

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 49:40Speaker 07

  That's it.

• 49:42Speaker 06

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.

• 49:50Speaker 08

  History gets written, then rewritten, sometimes by scholars correcting the record, sometimes by committees deciding what a generation of kids will and won't learn. The version that makes it into the textbook isn't always the only story. It's the one that won out. That's the kind of thing Ground News was built for. It shows you how outlets across the spectrum tell the same story, side by side, so you can spot the shading for yourself. Ground News gives each outlet a factuality rating, so you know how much weight to give the source, and shows you who owns it, so you know what's behind it. The Nobel Peace Center called it "an excellent way to stay informed,

• 50:33Speaker 08

  avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview." So go to groundnews.com/rz. That's G-R-O-U-N-D-N-E-W-S dot com slash R-Z for 40% off unlimited access vantage plan. Get it yourself or gift it to someone who'd rather know than not. Use my link, groundnews.com/rz, so you get the discount and they know I sent you. If you're a fan of learning all sides of history, then Ground News is for you. One more time, groundnews.com/rz.