Marc Maron on Podcast Grifters, Fascism & His Legacy

Kara sits down live at the Tribeca Festival with comedian, actor and OG podcaster Marc Maron following the world premiere of his new film, “In Memoriam.” In it, Maron stars as Langston Stanfield, a fading, narcissistic actor who’s facing a terminal cancer diagnosis and is determined to secure his place in the Oscars’ “In Memoriam” montage. Kara and Marc talk about the film, death, legacy, anxiety, narcissism and why it’s easier for him to be candid with a room full of strangers than with the people in his life. They also get into Marc’s life after ending WTF, the manosphere, empathy, tech oligarchs and phone addiction. Plus: why Marc wishes everyone would stop podcasting. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  I'm not anxious at all, actually. Do you know that?

• 0:03Speaker 01

  You're not anxious?

• 0:04Kara Swisher?

  No, I'm a lesbian, so I'm not anxious at all.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  So you've moved through anxiety?

• 0:09Kara Swisher?

  I never had it.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Never had it?

• 0:10Kara Swisher?

  No.

• 0:23Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is stand-up comedian and actor Marc Maron. You probably know Marc as the host of the podcast WTF, which just ended its run last fall after 16 years and nearly 1,700 episodes. On it, he interviewed everyone from President Barack Obama and Keith Richards to Carol Burnett and Robin Williams. In addition to the podcast and his critically acclaimed stand-up comedy specials, Marc has starred in a number of TV shows and films, including the Netflix series Glow, the Apple TV Plus golf comedy Stick, and the Bruce Springsteen biopic Deliver Me From Nowhere.

• 1:04Kara Swisher?

  Now Marc is the star and producer of a new film called In Memoriam from writer and director Rob Burnett. Marc plays Langston Stanfield, a talented narcissistic and arrogant actor who receives a terminal cancer diagnosis. He becomes obsessed with making it into the Oscars In Memoriam montage and cementing his legacy as an artist, and is forced to confront failed relationships and many missteps in his personal life along the way. I want to talk to Marc because he's the OG podcaster. I love all his other stuff, and I think he's an amazing stand-up comedian, but he was here early during the podcast days. He was even earlier than I was, and I've been here a long time. And I just think he's really been brilliant. He's a great interviewer, and I love his stand-up. I love his attacks of the tech oligarchs, and so there's a lot for us to talk to.

• 1:48Kara Swisher?

  So let's get into the conversation with Marc Maron. I interviewed him earlier this week after the world premiere of In Memoriam at the Tribeca Film Festival. Our expert question today comes from comedian Tig Notaro. Stick around.

• 2:15Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Ripple has been powering modern finance for a decade. We're leading the charge to bridge the gap between existing financial systems and the future of finance. You can have it all: legacy, stability, and digital innovation. Systems that work with your other systems. Because with the right partner, the question isn't crypto or traditional finance. The question is simply, why choose? A new standard of modern finance. It's happening with Ripple. For informational purposes only, availability of products can vary and may be provided by different Ripple entities.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  Now for a quick message from Anthropic, the team behind Claude, the AI built for businesses. Customers count on their bank, and banks count on their most important systems. Now those systems count on Claude, and nine of the Fortune 10 companies use it for critical work. See why leading companies trust Claude at claude.ai/span.

• 3:57Kara Swisher?

  Mark, thanks for joining me at an opening night of The Trebekha Film Festival Podcast stage for a live taping of On with Kara Swisher.

• 4:09Kara Swisher?

  So let's start talking about your careers. You spent decades working in stand-up before your podcast WTF took off. Now you're doing some of your best acting work. You said at your core, you're an urgent person. So talk about urgency.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Urgency in a TED Talk way or just personal?

• 4:27Kara Swisher?

  Personal. You can TED Talk it if you want.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. The reason urgency is so important.

• 4:35Kara Swisher?

  Now do an NPR voice.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  I'm urgent and I think about it a lot.

• 4:42Kara Swisher?

  Okay, that sounds like you're going to the bathroom.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  That sounds like NPR.

• 4:45Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  I guess I'm an urgent person because I'm filled with anxiety and dread most of the time. So everything starts in a panic and moves through in a panic. I wake up in a mild panic. I don't know why. I'm trying to resolve that, but everything is urgent because even things that I want to do, when I know I have to do them, when I remember I have to do them, it's always like, oh, fuck, I have to. And that's not really a great way to enter something you want to do. I don't know if it's urgent as much as it is anxious.

• 5:16Kara Swisher?

  Anxious.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  But not in a nervous way. I'm just, you know.

• 5:20Kara Swisher?

  And what causes this anxiety from your perspective?

• 5:22Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know what it is exactly. I think it is just dread of the unknown. Yeah. So and really, almost anything is unknown. I just, I always, anything I have to do just feels like, not a chore, but like, I'm trying to give you an example. Like, okay, so if someone like said, why don't you take a vacation and go spend a week in Spain? In about 40 seconds, my brain would be like, well, where do you park? So it's just the way my brain works.

• 6:00Kara Swisher?

  That's sort of, that is dread of the known, but go ahead. Go ahead. Not the unknown.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  I just don't, I don't know why. Like, I wasn't anxious about this. I don't mind talking. I don't mind being in front of people. I'm not afraid of performing. But I think when I just have time and I have to do things or things are happening, I just, so I guess it's urgent. It's more FOMO than it is urgent.

• 6:20Kara Swisher?

  Right. So parking in Spain is an issue, obviously.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, because what if there's not a space?

• 6:26Kara Swisher?

  Why do you have a car in Spain?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Well, I figured I'd rent one and then we gotta talk about can I drive with the license I have? Or do I have to get an international license temporarily? Which side of the street do you drive on in Spain? See, now I'm not, I'm canceling my trip. Cancelled.

• 6:42Kara Swisher?

  Alright.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not going.

• 6:44Kara Swisher?

  Okay. It's a lovely country. It's a lovely country.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, but like it just seems like a hassle.

• 6:49Kara Swisher?

  Okay, alright. I'm not anxious at all, actually. Do you know that?

• 6:54Speaker 01

  You're not anxious?

• 6:55Kara Swisher?

  No, I'm a lesbian, so I'm not anxious.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  So you've moved through anxiety?

• 7:00Kara Swisher?

  I never had it.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Never had it?

• 7:02Kara Swisher?

  No. My wife is Jewish, she's very upset by this situation.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  And she's anxious?

• 7:06Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Because you make her anxious?

• 7:08Kara Swisher?

  Probably.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Right, you're not helping her in any way.

• 7:11Kara Swisher?

  No, not at all. No, but I'm like, why are you so anxious?

• 7:13Speaker 01

  So you're not, you're the opposite of anxious. You like thrive on other people's discomfort.

• 7:18Kara Swisher?

  Yes, that's what I do. That's actually been my career and it's been an excellent and lucrative one.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Well, I'm glad you made a career out of it. I also made my career out of anxiety.

• 7:25Kara Swisher?

  Good, well, this is good, okay. We're moving down a bad area. So, but are you anxious in like when you think of your career or when you do it? Or what propels you?

• 7:35Speaker 01

  It's not really anxiety like that. I think I've moved through, you know, a certain amount of anger and a certain amount of anxiety. I don't have any anxiety really about my career. Like when I have to do something that's new, that's when I get very anxious. Like, you know, I don't feel insanely confident as an actor. So when I have to act, I get anxious. I've been playing a lot of music lately. I get very anxious about that. But I also know that that kind of fear is fine until you figure out, you know, how to do something.

• 8:05Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  To do things at any point in your life, if they're new, those things aren't new, but for me to do them publicly and to really work on them, you know, you're gonna suck for a while. And you gotta just, you gotta take that, you gotta, you know, deal with that.

• 8:19Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  But I learned from, you know, stand-up and also from my, you know, early acting jobs that like, it's okay to suck, you know, and either you'll get through it or you'll just keep sucking and you'll stop because it's not good for you.

• 8:32Kara Swisher?

  Which is interesting, you picked a career where you really have to put yourself out there.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  I don't know why I chose that. Harry Shearer once said, you know, "The reason we make people laugh is to try to control why they laugh at us", which I think is very funny and very smart. I don't know why it was stand-up, but it was always stand-up. Since I was a kid, I always wanted to be a stand-up. I always thought that stand-ups were able to make sense of the world in a very specific way, in a very quick way, in a very poetic way, and they were able to disarm, you know, fears in a very quick way, in a very poetic way, and also give you new ways of looking at things. So I thought stand-ups were just wizards and geniuses. And I always thought it was the most, um, it's a singular stage and it's a very sacred space to me.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  And it doesn't seem to be, you know, that sacred anymore, generally speaking.

• 9:23Kara Swisher?

  Oh, we'll get to that in talking about not it is, although sometimes it is actually. Is there someone that was the first person you noticed in that regard?

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Well, I think my earliest memories really are of watching, you know, TV, um, in the afternoon.

• 9:36Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Watching Merv Griffin, probably. You know, I still, you know, I see Jay Leno around now because he's sort of back and doing stand-up and, uh, like I remember a joke he did on like the Merv Griffin show. Like it stuck with me my whole life.

• 9:50Kara Swisher?

  Do you remember the joke?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was just sitting not in a chair like this.

• 9:53Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  And, and I'm pretty sure it was Merv, but the host goes, uh, we're gonna go away for a break. And Jay goes, is the chair gonna fold into the wall now? You know, like, like on a game show where it just sort of disappears or goes there. And I thought it was so fucking funny. But comics always, uh, sort of made an impression on me. I listened to a lot of, uh, a lot of Cheech and Chong, a lot of George Carlin when I was a kid, when I saw Richard Pryor's first movie. When I was in high school, the first live in concert, that was a big deal. My parents took me to see Jackie Vernon when I was like 11 years old at the, uh, Hilton Inn in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in the lounge area. Cause I loved Jackie Vernon because I'd see him on talk shows and it was kind of weird. I was a little kid in a dark lounge and there was this sweaty old guy who was probably near the end of his career.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  And we were like second row and he, he, he looked terrible. He looked like he was gonna have a heart attack any second. And some part of me was like, I want to be him.

• 10:48Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 10:50Kara Swisher?

  What was your drink order? Um, no, I don't want to answer that. So let's move to the film first. We're gonna get back to comedy in a second, but the film In Memoriam. You play Langston Stanfield, a 60-year-old narcissistic arrogant actor who receives a terminal cancer diagnosis and becomes bent on getting in the Oscars In Memoriam montage, which is quite a premise. He tells his manager if he's not in and he didn't exist, essentially.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:14Kara Swisher?

  It's, it's, it's an absurd obsession, but at the same time, well, it is in a way, but it isn't. And so I talk a lot about death. I just did a whole series about death for CNN, yes.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  What'd you come up with? Figure out a way out of it?

• 11:25Kara Swisher?

  No, no, I'm gonna die. But it's called Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever. Uh, she doesn't. But talk about this, how it came about and how you thought about the role. You were really a jerk in the role at the beginning, like so much so that I had to turn it off for a second.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 11:39Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  I, um, wha-

• 11:42Kara Swisher?

  You do a great job playing an arrogant narcissistic actor, yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, I, I, I was brought up by, uh, wild narcissists.

• 11:51Kara Swisher?

  Me too.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you, you kinda, you know how to lock in. And at some point you realize, well, maybe I have some of those things that they have. But if it's not truly pathological, you can, you can sort of temper it or get rid of it or control it. Uh, so, but you do know how to do the narcissistic thing. When I got the role, you know, uh, Rob Burnett, the, the writer-

• 12:17Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Wrote a great script, directed the movie, um, offered me this role through my management. And I said to my manager, like, well, how many people turned it down? Um, because that's the way I think.

• 12:29Kara Swisher?

  You need to know that, yeah.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  What number am I? You know, which other funny fellas have not wanted to do this? So, and then over time, they convince you that you're the only one they wanted.

• 12:40Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  And you go, and you believe it. And- So I took the job.

• 12:46Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's your first lead role, right?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  It is my first lead role. Yeah, and I think Rob wanted me because I don't know really who else could have done this role that in the way that I did it, not in an arrogant way, but like, you know, it's a weird role. But the process was, you know, I read the script, I thought it was great and I thought the premise was great. And then it just becomes about, you know, being present for what's on the page. I think, you know, as a person who's acting, I relate to the guy. I know I'm not the guy, but I'm close enough to the guy to play the guy, I believe. So I find the part of myself that fits this guy and the parts of me that don't fit it, I try to shut off. I really think that if something is well-written, that the answers to your questions on how

• 13:32Speaker 01

  to perform it, and I'm no lifetime actor, it's all on the page. If you're present for what's going on on the page and present for the actors around you.

• 13:42Kara Swisher?

  What made you like this premise? I mean, you called it emotionally charged and very human. What was the thing that attracted you?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  It's crazy funny.

• 13:49Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  It's crazy dark funny. Whenever I told people what this movie was about, they were like, they laughed. Because it's funny, but it's not, it's not that outside of reality. A guy who was a big actor when he was younger, had big shots in show business, and it kind of all faded away. And as he got older, you know, who knows what he did, but he ended up on a sitcom for five years, you know, for the money.

• 14:15Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  But in his heart, he was always a big actor and he kind of failed there. So now he's dying and he, the only thing that'll give his life meaning is to get into this in memoriam montage, but he doesn't know if he has the resume for it.

• 14:28Kara Swisher?

  Right, if he can make the in memoriam, right?

• 14:31Speaker 01

  So then it's sort of like, well, we got to figure out an angle. So he's going to forego chemo, so he makes the cut. Now-

• 14:40Speaker 01

  So only half the room's laughing because like the other half is sort of like this sounds like a sad movie and I have no use for those people.

• 14:46Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Because like they're the ones who are ruining everything. This is a funny concept.

• 14:51Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  You know, just like triggered babies like that sounds like a sad film. It is. So what? That doesn't mean it's not funny. I don't know why I'm angry at you now, but uh, but yeah, so I thought it was, I thought it was very funny, but oddly as I played it and as you know, the foundational relationship in the movie is with me and my estranged daughter played by Talia Ryder, who was great. And I didn't play it in a broad way and Rob and I have talked about it. There were some bits of comedy in there that they're not broad, but they could have been played differently. But I played it very real because I don't really know how to do broad that well. Um, like I have to approach it like it's real, but

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Once the relationship with Talia started to happen, this is the sort of explore the sadness element. It does get sad, but I think that because the guy is such an asshole and you kind of don't like him for a while and then as he sort of, you know, breaks down a little bit in the relationship with Lily Gladstone, as the therapist sort of softens him to a degree, um, it becomes a little more weighty.

• 16:01Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  And, and because I was talking about this with Talia, the woman who played my daughter yesterday, you know, the scene where they, well, I don't want to ruin the movie for anybody, but there's a scene, you know, where there's a cake involved and it's a horrendous bit of comedy. It really pushes the envelope of like, of what you can emotionally take as a funny premise. Um, and, and at that point, yeah, it does change to sadness, but not until that point.

• 16:31Kara Swisher?

  No.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Um, so, so I thought that was all very challenging. It was very exciting.

• 16:36Kara Swisher?

  As you said, he's a self-described asshole who realizes he doesn't have any friends. He has four to six ex-wives and the longest relationship was with a manager.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:44Kara Swisher?

  Um, how did you prepare for the person who cares more about being admired by strangers than loved by the people in his life?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Well, I can relate to that.

• 16:55Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  You know, it's a sad, it's a sad situation, you know, in the sense of, and like even as you read that, I realized that at this point in my life, my, my emergency contact is my manager.

• 17:07Kara Swisher?

  Oh, wow.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  So, you know, I'm living that to a degree.

• 17:11Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  But it's not so much about the people in my life, but I've always felt like I could be more candid and more open, you know, in, in this room.

• 17:21Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Like with these people, and they're, they're your people.

• 17:24Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  And I don't even know them.

• 17:25Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  But I'm sure some of them are mine.

• 17:29Kara Swisher?

  I'm sure they are.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  But there is something about making myself emotionally available on a stage that is, it's, it's where it happens mostly for me.

• 17:42Kara Swisher?

  The connection. It's a parasocial relationship.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  For who, them? It's a parasocial?

• 17:47Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, parasocial, meaning they don't know you.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  I'm not having parasocial relationships.

• 17:49Kara Swisher?

  No, you're not. You're, they know you, but you don't know them.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, that, that can become problematic because it's very easy access to all of us, you know? So, the, but to address the thing, it's like, I don't know what that is. Like, you know, some performers, they say they're looking for love, or they need the love.

• 18:07Kara Swisher?

  Or the affirmation.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't know if I need that. It's like, I'm not even sure, you know, I like the laugh. But I think there's something about being seen and being present in yourself and being acknowledged for that. I, I don't know, like, I, I, I'm very odd with, with how I feel about audiences. I used to do a joke about it. I used to say, you know, like, I'll do a joke that like only lands with half the audience.

• 18:29Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  And I'll say like, you know, that's what I like to do with an audience. I like to push you away, see if I can get you back and push you away and get you back. And that's a little dynamic I call dad. So.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  And there's something to the, you know, the parents connection. I've done a lot of thinking about this.

• 18:47Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  But I'm, I'm, I don't like that I'm so needy of validation. I don't like it.

• 18:53Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  I, I, it's, it's like, it's, it's almost like an addiction.

• 18:57Kara Swisher?

  Do you do the flip side, the withholding part?

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Withholding from who?

• 19:01Kara Swisher?

  Anyone.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I do. I do. I do that. But but it's hard for me now. I've I've gotten worse at it. You know, the, you know, I if I was I withholding with my last relationship? Not not really. I find that if people kind of instinctively know me, they can get past that pretty quickly. You know, because I'm pretty sensitive and kind of like, you know, I'm I'm a pretty soft guy.

• 19:26Kara Swisher?

  You can see that.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  But whatever, you know, I've built. Another thing I've I what was that line I wrote? The the monster I created to protect the child inside me is is hard to control sometimes.

• 19:37Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, that's a great line.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  But but no, people who know me can get right through it.

• 19:42Kara Swisher?

  Can I can I?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Withholding is just a test.

• 19:44Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just a test.

• 19:46Kara Swisher?

  Oh, okay.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  And if you pass the test, lucky you, you get me.

• 19:51Kara Swisher?

  Um, it's hard to do with children. And speaking of which.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  I don't have any children.

• 19:55Kara Swisher?

  I I have four, so I have them for all of us.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  You have four?

• 19:58Kara Swisher?

  Yes, I do.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 19:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you can't be withholding. Well, you can, but. Ugh, what do you mean, ugh? Did you just, ugh, my four children?

• 20:05Speaker 01

  I did.

• 20:06Kara Swisher?

  They're fantastic.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Well, how are you not going to think that?

• 20:10Kara Swisher?

  They just are. They're it's factual.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Of course they are.

• 20:12Kara Swisher?

  No, it's factual. It's actually factual.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Whatever you say.

• 20:16Kara Swisher?

  Okay, all right. Well, I'm just telling you they're great. They're anyway. In any case, you have a fake daughter in this movie, Maura, and they're getting to know each other, and he's teaching her the Sanford Meisner repetition exercises was very striking, where he tells her, don't think, feel, and you both get very emotional. I'd like to talk about that scene.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  The first time we did it on the park bench? Well, we really did it. I mean, oddly, if you do that exercise, it will get you. And I'm not sure what it was with me and Talia, but it it really worked pretty quickly. Again, because the script is so good, and it's all there, that we were able to emotionally connect in that sadness. We both engaged in something, but that exercise, if anyone does it. Will, will, will push you to-

• 21:04Kara Swisher?

  The listening and repetition.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it'll push you to a limit.

• 21:07Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  And given that it was loaded, that was me trying to get to know this daughter who I, whose life I wasn't present in.

• 21:13Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  That was loaded. Uh, so it started to, to happen very quickly. And, and that the exercise of me sort of admiring her, and then also realizing in that moment that, you know, she is my daughter, and that I'm having this, this, whatever emotions that I never engaged with, because I wasn't in her life.

• 21:32Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, it was overwhelming.

• 21:33Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  So, and the first time we did it, we were crying. I would imagine that, given the number of takes we did with some of these things, it's hard to know which ones they use, but, you know, you don't want to cry and then, you know, have to do it too many more times, because, uh, you know, then, then it, you're forcing it.

• 21:49Kara Swisher?

  How many times did you do that, see?

• 21:51Speaker 01

  We didn't have a lot of time. I think we shot that movie in like twenty days.

• 21:55Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Uh, so, so we had to get it in, in one or two, maybe three takes.

• 22:02Kara Swisher?

  So, you grieved the death of your partner Lynn Shelton very publicly, and you helped shape her legacy through your reflections. Now, you're starring in a film that deals with legacy and what an artist leaves behind. I'm just curious, talk about how the experiences have affected thinking of your own legacy, or what that will look like? Did you think about it doing this?

• 22:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  I didn't.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  I don't-

• 22:29Kara Swisher?

  Would you like to try now?

• 22:32Speaker 01

  I'm gonna try.

• 22:33Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  You know, I don't, I-

• 22:37Kara Swisher?

  Don't think, feel.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  I am feeling, I am feeling, you know? Like, I think about Lynn Shelton, I think about, you know, in this world of, you know, no context and everything all the time.

• 22:49Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Uh, and, and no real sense of history, or, or what anything means in relation to it. You know, what does a legacy really mean?

• 22:58Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't know. So, like, yeah, I, I mean, like, I've done a lot of stuff. Uh, and also, you know, the mindset around, you know, the difference between, you know, content and art.

• 23:10Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  And, you know, churning out content, and then, you know, everything we once knew was something amazing is just broken down into clips. Uh, you know, everything just churns away on our phone. None of us really think anymore, we just react to our phone. Um, so you know, what, what is legacy? You know, what does it mean to me? I don't know. You know, my girlfriend died and what happens is when anyone dies is, you know, a handful of people are like, well, what are we going to do with all this shit?

• 23:38Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  So that's just the reality of it.

• 23:41Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Um, you know, people say to me, you know, you, you like, you should archive, you know, your letters and your notes and get them, you know, put at a university. I'm like, for what?

• 23:51Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  So I, I, I seem, I don't know why this anger comes out sometimes.

• 23:55Kara Swisher?

  That's all right.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  But, but like, even when I think of the podcast, you know, 1700 episodes,

• 24:00Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  of fairly rare and singular interviews with, with a lot of people.

• 24:04Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Uh, and a lot of them are very deep and a lot of them are very revealing. They were moving for me. They exist in the world and, you know, and I hope that people can go back to those. I was just walking down the street today and some woman walks out of a doorway and she goes, oh my God, I was just listening to you and Nick Kroll this morning.

• 24:22Kara Swisher?

  Hmm.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Now, what's interesting about that is either of those Nick Kroll episodes are at least, you know, one's a decade old or 15 years.

• 24:29Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  And the other is at least a year or two. And I'm like, all right, well, that, that means something. You know, if, if any of these conversations I've had, or if any of my comedy bits can still provide a service for people in terms of doing for people what they did for me when I was a kid, making sense of the world, looking at something in a different way, elevating something, making someone feel less alone, making someone laugh at something that was, you know, stuck in their heart, then great. That's a great legacy to have. Uh, and, and I hope that happens.

• 25:00Kara Swisher?

  Well, that is legacy, right?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:06Kara Swisher?

  Final question about this movie. How do you expect it's going to be recea- I'm just curious. Do you think about that at all? Where does it belong?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Try not to think about that because.

• 25:13Kara Swisher?

  In movie land these days.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Where does it belong in movie land?

• 25:16Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  I don't, you know, it's like, I, I don't.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  The great thing about this movie is, um, you know, I'm just an actor.

• 25:24Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  And, you know, let Rob worry about that shit. Like, he texted me the other day. He's like, this is gonna be a wild ride. It's gonna be a lot of ups and downs. I just don't want you to feel, you know, freaked out about it. I'm like, I'm not stressing at all. You're the director. You take it. You know what I mean? I'm really not.

• 25:42Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Uh, you just hope with this thing, as he does, in terms of where anything fits in or how something is sold anymore, or, or, you know, we live in a world where genius actors and brilliant writers and, and great directors do amazing things that no one sees.

• 26:01Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  That is the world we're living in. Why? Because everything's broken open. Everything is like, it's just the Wild West out there. There are no gatekeepers and the ones that do exist are, are greedy and basing everything on an algorithm of people that could be, you know, fucking morons.

• 26:17Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  So.

• 26:19Kara Swisher?

  Now you're speaking my language, but go ahead.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, I get it, you know? So, so I think the hope is that the movie lands somewhere where it is seen by as many people as possible. Uh, you know, how, you know, one markets it or, or how, you know, nothing, you know, if you go on Netflix, you know, I've had specials on Netflix, you know, it's on the front page for a day and then this thing you worked three years on, people are like, you know, I don't know, I saw it yesterday and then now it's gone.

• 26:47Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, and then Charlie Saren is.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Who the hell knows what's there?

• 26:50Kara Swisher?

  In Prey or something.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't understand it, but I do know that I probably watch the menu of Netflix more than I watch things on Netflix.

• 26:57Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, that's, that's fair. It's a very good menu. It's a really.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Well, he's just like, you're getting a lot done. It's like, it's the same thing as scrolling reels. You're like, I don't know about that movie. You watch a trailer. And why, why can't you turn the trailers off?

• 27:10Kara Swisher?

  I don't know.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  That is the only thing.

• 27:12Kara Swisher?

  For a reason.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  I know it's for a reason, but it's annoying because the Apple remotes are too small.

• 27:18Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  All right, all right.

• 27:19Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  So.

• 27:21Kara Swisher?

  Okay, do you think you'll make the in memoriam at the Oscars when you die?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  No!

• 27:26Kara Swisher?

  Okay, why not? Sure you will.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  No, I've done two movies.

• 27:30Kara Swisher?

  I know, but still, they bring in other people now.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 27:32Kara Swisher?

  They bring in other people now.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  I think it's, I don't know how they choose that, I definitely won't make it.

• 27:37Kara Swisher?

  No?

• 27:37Speaker 01

  No, I probably won't even make the-

• 27:39Kara Swisher?

  Well, it depends on who dies that year, probably.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Well, that's in the movie.

• 27:43Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  It's always gonna be more than me, like, there's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be a gaffer that's done ninety movies.

• 27:49Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  He's gonna be in it.

• 27:51Kara Swisher?

  Maybe.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  And they're gonna be like, Marc Maron did four movies, well, Joe's the real deal, you know, like, so-

• 27:57Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  I don't know, like, I don't, look, I don't win prizes, and I don't, uh, I, like, I, it's, it's, because, like, it's another validation, but it's not true, you know, it's actually not true anymore, you, you know, because I think, I don't know what people want, but I, I know that I'm not always giving it to them.

• 28:17Kara Swisher?

  Withholding.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:19Kara Swisher?

  Withholding.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  And I know that.

• 28:20Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  It's not withholding, it's aggressive, it's the opposite.

• 28:24Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Like, because, like, in my specials, but I, I will, you know, toot my own horn here, I did, my special, this one that's up now, Panicked, won the, the WGA Award, it ran the Writers Guild Award, and it was up against SNL fifty, the Conan at the Mark Twain Center-

• 28:42Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  And, uh, and Jordan Klepper, Daily Show, like, massive staffs of writers, you have fifteen guys on each, on each staff, and then just me, you know, Marc Maron, Panicked, so I was like, there's no way I'm gonna win that thing, and I did, and it, and it felt good, because, like, that one, I think, has some, there's honor in that.

• 29:00Kara Swisher?

  Hmm.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  The Writers Award.

• 29:01Kara Swisher?

  The single.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Well, no, it's just-

• 29:03Kara Swisher?

  Oh, the Writers, the, the award itself, though, if you got, like, a Golden Globe, you're like, fuck that.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  It's not like, yeah, Golden Globe that someone paid for.

• 29:09Kara Swisher?

  Paid for, fuck that.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, or, or, like, or, like, you know, SAG Awards are fine, but, like, I know actors, and there's so many shows, like, you know, what happens is, you're going through-

• 29:19Kara Swisher?

  Still back on that Netflix menu, you are, okay.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Well, no, you're going through the nominees, and there's, like, fifty in each category, so, and you only saw one of the things, so, what you're voting is, like, oh, I know her, and that, that's it. You didn't even see what they did, but you know them.

• 29:35Kara Swisher?

  That's how we do political voting now.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:37Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:42Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 29:55Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news, and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace. Three times a week, hosts Kai Wright and Carter Sherman bring their expertise together to showcase different and engaging perspectives regarding the world today. They will use their collective knowledge to discuss the news, international affairs,

• 30:38Kara Swisher?

  climate, culture, sports, lifestyle, fashion, and wellness. Plus, The Guardian wants to emphasize they're not billionaire-owned, meaning they're free to report the whole picture without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts, or watch on YouTube starting May 13.

• 30:59Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Delete Me. Have you ever Googled yourself and found your home address, phone number, or the name of a family member? It's unsettling. Here's what you do to clean up your online data footprint. Go to joindelete.me/kara and enter the code Kara. You get 20% off Delete Me. Delete Me removes your personal information that's being sold online. Delete Me was named the top pick for data removal services by Wirecutter, so you know you're in good hands. I really like Delete Me. I use it all the time. It's always surprising how much data people have about me. I am very privacy forward, and I still find so much stuff of mine online, some of which is incorrect, some of which is compiled in a really disturbing way. And you have to sort of control it like weeds.

• 31:43Kara Swisher?

  Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now, at a special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindelete.me/kara and use the promo code Kara. At checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindelete.me.com/kara and enter the code Kara at checkout. That's joindelete.me.com/kara code Kara.

• 32:12Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Hers. Losing weight on your own can often feel like a fight you never win. Luckily, weight loss by Hers offers access to the FDA-approved Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. Wegovy is the first-ever GLP-1 weight loss medication available in a pill, but also comes as a pen, so you've got options. With Wegovy, you can lose up to 20% of your body weight. People lost an average of 14% body weight at 64 weeks in a clinical trial of Wegovy alongside diet and exercise. To get started with Wegovy, just go to forhers.com and complete an online consultation with a licensed provider who will determine if your prescription is appropriate. And Hers doesn't stop there. Nutrition and lifestyle guidance are part of the plan, along with access to 24/7 messaging

• 32:57Kara Swisher?

  with your care team, so support is always in reach. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/kara to access personalized, affordable care for weight loss, hair, menopause, and more. That's forhers.com/kara. Individual results may vary, and stopping treatment may result in weight regain.

• 33:20Kara Swisher?

  I'm going to shift to WTF and Your Life Since Ending the Podcast. As you were whining on the show, you talked about the anxiety again. You felt about not having it in your life, in part because it helped you meet people. You said, quote, "I live for connection. I live for it because I need to know I exist." So, eight months, how's it going?

• 33:37Speaker 01

  I exist most days.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Has it been eight months?

• 33:42Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  What is going on with time?

• 33:45Kara Swisher?

  I don't know.

• 33:47Kara Swisher?

  I don't know.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  How did that happen?

• 33:48Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Did COVID fuck up time?

• 33:51Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  And then now the phones fuck up time, too. It eats your time. Oh, my God.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 33:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  It's up and down, uh, with the time.

• 34:03Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Because you have to realize, you know, half of my life I spent as a comic trying to be a comic.

• 34:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, and you weren't hinged to the idea of being funny. You'd have a discussion.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Well, no, but I mean, you just have time.

• 34:13Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Like, if you're not, like, if you're just being a comic and you're getting by early in your career as a comic, on, you know, whatever, a few hundred bucks a week, and living on the Lower East Side, running around doing one-nighters and stuff. I mean, outside of the, the drive to the gig and the half hour or hour you do, you've got another 22 hours.

• 34:32Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  That you wander around high with a notebook.

• 34:36Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  You know, so I, I've been, I've had time before.

• 34:40Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Now I'm not high and, and I, and I have money, so it's a different kind of time.

• 34:45Kara Swisher?

  Right, so, how's it going?

• 34:47Speaker 01

  It's okay.

• 34:49Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, well, I was surprised, you know, like, because I thought, like, after the podcast, like, you know, do I, I gotta stay, how am I gonna stay relevant?

• 34:59Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  You know, maybe I'll get on Instagram, you know.

• 35:02Kara Swisher?

  Oh, wow.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Do the live thing, you know, and, and, but then, like, after, like, a few weeks, I'm like, I, I don't, I don't wanna do any of it. And I don't miss it.

• 35:11Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  The, the sort of drive to, to generate. I mean, look, I, I know a lot of people love the podcast, and it was an important part of my life, and I did it for 16 years, but to be honest with you, I really talk to everyone I want to talk to.

• 35:25Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  There's like 1,700 people. How, how many more people?

• 35:29Kara Swisher?

  Was there one? Was there one you?

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Well, some people didn't wanna do it. I can't make people do it, you know. People are like, you should get Dylan. I'm like, all right, call him. What do you want from me?

• 35:38Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  So.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  And I don't even think he'd be that great an interview. That's, that's hit or miss with that guy.

• 35:45Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  So.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  But, but no, literally what started to happen was, you know, I, I, I would get opportunities to talk to people and then I, you know, I'd, I'd have to decide like, you know, what, do I care about their work? Do I know their work? If I don't know their work, but I am interested, can I get into their work, you know, which is just part of the gig. But then it gets to a point where it's like, do you want that job?

• 36:10Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Like if something that you love to do or that, you know, sort of, you know, serviced a lot of different things in your life, becomes a job, everything becomes a job.

• 36:19Kara Swisher?

  No.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  It does. You're saying it doesn't?

• 36:22Kara Swisher?

  I say it doesn't. I love what I do.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Oh, well, okay. Well, good for you.

• 36:26Kara Swisher?

  But I'm not anxious, like you.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not that anxious, but like, I know that feeding the monster, like, you know, there's one thing, I get you're not anxious, but you know, where does ambition play into it?

• 36:38Kara Swisher?

  Right. Maybe you just liked it. I mean, one of the things, you said it was freeing at one point because you could, you could.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Of course. No, I loved it. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that, like, there comes a point, you know, my producer and I worked together and for years, and it was just the two of us. We were not part of a network.

• 36:54Kara Swisher?

  Which is great.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  We were not, you know, gunning for money. It was never, it was never designed to be for money. When we started the podcast, there was no way to make money. We never made it video because we believed in audio as a format and the intimacy of audio. It was never an idea to really make it video. And, and I think because of these principles or what we, what happened, like, how it became a business, like, I've been in, in modern podcasting, you know, since day one. So I saw the business grow and build and how it all worked out for everybody. So ultimately, it's a miracle, you know, that it, it gave me everything it gave me, and, and I love doing it, but after 16 years, a new show every Monday and Thursday, we were kind of fried.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  And also, like, because of the way the business has grown around us, there is nothing special about almost any of it. That the bar has been lowered to such a degree that people prefer parasocial relationships with mildly charismatic, fundamentally usually untalented people than being engaged by anything provocative or truly interesting that someone made out of their imagination and heart. So, you know, I don't need to be a part of that anymore.

• 38:07Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. I see that. I see that. Wow. Did you think of yourself as an interviewer? Did you, or you just were like, I don't like this shit's happening anymore. I don't like how it's evolved?

• 38:17Speaker 01

  No, I just like, I needed to connect with people because I thought when, when I started that podcast, you know, I thought I was an outsider. I thought I pissed a lot of people off. And, and a lot of it wasn't exactly true, but I mean, the first, the way I developed whatever my style of conversation was, you know, I would have people over in my world, they were comics. And I would say like, are we good? Are you mad at me about that thing? And nine times out of 10, they'd be like, I don't even remember what you're talking about. And, you know, I'd been carrying around my whole life.

• 38:47Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  So, but, but through that, you know, some sort of drive happened in terms of my curiosity, my need to connect was always a big part of it, but also just like, you know, not just connecting, but hearing how people work and hearing how people, you know, exist in those moments. Cause I didn't, I never really had questions, you know, I would do some research, but like, the whole thing hinged on those first-

• 39:17Kara Swisher?

  On your curiosity, right. On your curiosity.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Sure, it was curiosity, but was also like, yeah, I had to be interested.

• 39:22Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  It's bad if I'm not interested.

• 39:24Kara Swisher?

  Right. But just for people to know, it was 2009, which is very early. And you said it helped, quote, unleash an exciting type of delivery system for pure self-expression.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  The bono works.

• 39:34Kara Swisher?

  But also unleashing format that can be used for dubious means, propaganda and pure evil.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. Oh yeah. This is the monster of podcasting.

• 39:42Kara Swisher?

  The monster. So, how did you feel about, you ushered it in of all the people I can think of.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 39:47Kara Swisher?

  A couple. Among the beginning, the OG people probably, you're on the list.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  But the thing was, is that, I think what- Look, I'm not, I'm not a businessman, I'm not an entrepreneur, and I'm not a grifter. Okay, so, you know, those weren't on my menu. But I would say that's 94% of podcasts. So, whatever I was doing at the beginning, you know, I didn't invent interviewing. I don't know why some people can live on these mics and, and connect and why some people can't. But what happened was that because of, you know, my success and a few other people, everyone decided that anyone could do it.

• 40:33Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  And they can.

• 40:34Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  But go, there is a graveyard of four episodes of someone's dream podcast. Thousands of them. Thousands, since 2008, there's got to be like a million, you know, three to four episodes of someone who was, entered it going like, this is going to be great. And by week four, they're like, nine people listened, so.

• 40:57Kara Swisher?

  Do you feel responsible for that graveyard?

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Sure, but like, I'm just, a lot of them didn't go away.

• 41:04Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, they didn't. Now, last month, for example, the business has evolved, as you said, you said grifters, entrepreneurs, and what was the third one?

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Grifters, entrepreneurs, and businessmen.

• 41:15Kara Swisher?

  Businessmen, okay.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Propagandists, there's a lot, there's a lot of things going on.

• 41:19Kara Swisher?

  Last month, Spotify and Netflix acquired the video rights to distribute Jay Shetty's On Purpose podcast in a deal reportedly worth... Jay Shetty.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  I don't know who that is, maybe I'm out of the loop.

• 41:31Kara Swisher?

  Well, he got $100 million. It's part of Netflix's broader push into podcasts and effort to compete with YouTube. Did you, do you think about that and staying, do you, do you think about the cashing in?

• 41:43Speaker 01

  When I saw, you know, podcasts on the menu of Netflix, I'm like, it's fucking over.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  You know, no one gives a shit about anything.

• 41:51Kara Swisher?

  Explain yourself.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  The bar has been lowered to such a degree that people will sit at home and watch people on Zoom with half their fucking face covered up like it's sure SM7. It's like, what, what is wrong with fucking people? Like, do they not have any friends? Do they, are they not curious about anything? Do they not use their brain anymore? They can't think, they gotta have three idiots who are talking about the last time they shit themselves as adults, you know, entertain them? I mean, it's like, it's like a fucking, a world of drive time radio. It's the worst.

• 42:24Kara Swisher?

  Right, so why do you think it's popular?

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 42:26Kara Swisher?

  Why do you think it's popular?

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Because people are lazy and they'll adapt to anything and they're fucking lonely and they want to have parasocial relationships with people they feel that they're like, which means usually fucking amateurs.

• 42:39Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. Okay. All right, then, I think that's it. Well, a lot of them.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 42:47Kara Swisher?

  Keep going.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  I don't know what's going on with me.

• 42:49Kara Swisher?

  Okay, I like it. I like it. I like it a lot, actually. Actually, a lot of people you're referring to in your...

• 42:56Speaker 01

  This is because I don't have the podcast anymore.

• 42:58Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you have to.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Like, the anger's right there again.

• 43:00Kara Swisher?

  Right, I know, I like it. It's good, keep going.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Well, get on stage, you know, it's, I think it's better for the stage. Like, because I was worried after the podcast, like, you know, people aren't going to know my dates, but I think people like miss me because the tickets are selling great.

• 43:13Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Like, I just use Instagram to promote stuff, you know, or put clips up, but, but I think the not doing the podcast has made some people sort of like, well, I gotta see what the cats are up to, you know?

• 43:23Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's how can they miss you if you won't go away? We'll be back in a minute.

• 43:41Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from... Indeed. When the pressure's on and you need to hire the right person for the job, Indeed Sponsored Jobs has got your back. Instead of forcing you to spend tons of time searching, Indeed Sponsored Jobs matches you with quality candidates fast. According to their data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners to the show will get a $75 sponsored job

• 44:25Kara Swisher?

  credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai/spotify.

• 45:19Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 45:56Kara Swisher?

  One of the groups you, in your latest HBO special Panic!, you criticized with the Manosphere, podcasts are full of this.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:01Kara Swisher?

  And one notable line was, "If Hitler were alive today, he'd probably appear on Theo Von's podcast."

• 46:08Speaker 01

  And like, I had to think about-

• 46:09Kara Swisher?

  He'd probably have a podcast. Anyway, do-

• 46:11Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 46:12Kara Swisher?

  Talk about the, this, what's happening here with these guys.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  I, well, look, you know, like, I had to really deliberate, or delegate, or what's the word I want? I had to think about that bit, you know, because I know these guys. I've known them my whole life. I knew them before there was a Manosphere.

• 46:25Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  I knew them as comics. You know, I knew Rogan when he started in Boston. I've known these guys. We are somewhat of a weird tribe and a community. So, like, it gets to a point where, look, my politics are what they are. You know, I'm, I'm team left, you know? I'm not going to make all the games.

• 46:43Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Uh, but, but I'm team left. You know, going downtown to fight the, I'm like, "Not today, I think, but, but, you know, good, you know, fight, good luck with it, and I'll wa, I'll wa, I'll keep following you on the reels," you know? So, but, but I've always been that way.

• 47:02Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  You know, that's always been my, my politics, and, you know, I believe in, you know, liberal democracy. I believe in it. So, so, but like, with the Theo Von thing, I, I, that's a joke, and it's a good joke.

• 47:14Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  You know, to do Theo interviewing Hitler is hilarious.

• 47:18Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  And I eventually got to a place with that joke where I'm like, "How, how could Theo get mad at me for this?"

• 47:25Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  It's funny.

• 47:27Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  But they, they're sensitive, those fellows.

• 47:29Kara Swisher?

  Did they get mad at you?

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Well, Joe said he got mad at me. I don't know.

• 47:34Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, you got my beef there.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  I think they, they're, they get hurt, you know, kind of.

• 47:37Kara Swisher?

  They're very delicate flowers.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  They are a little bit.

• 47:40Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  They are, they are. Um, I don't know why that is.

• 47:44Kara Swisher?

  Well, billionaires are like that. I get so many calls, like, "You're so mean to me," and I go, "Go buy a France. Go fuck yourself." You know?

• 47:51Speaker 01

  But like, my, my issue was, and I think that many of them- Look, I don't want to be diplomatic about this.

• 47:59Kara Swisher?

  Please don't.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  And, and I've, I've talked about this a lot.

• 48:02Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you've talked about anti-woke hack.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  In the special, and I talked about it when I was promoting the special. My problem with those guys, what they, is that they were sucking up to fascists and they were promoting the end of, of liberal democracy and the beginning of authoritarianism. And I, and, and to me, that was plain and clear to see. So my issue was with them was because of that. It was political and it was like they were bootlickers and they were pawns. But I also think they were suckers and I also think that some of them are grifters. Is that, you know, some of these guys, it's like they're gonna go to where the money is. And the audiences they built, you know, like, like even, even before I made these comments, like, you know, would I ever go on Joe's show? Cause he's sort of a, you know, a star maker or, or Tony's show.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  It's like, no, I wouldn't because what am I gonna do with that audience?

• 48:49Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Do you know, I've got my audience, they're delicate, you know, angry, creative, middle-aged people, but they're my people, you know? So, and there's enough of them, you know? And I, I think we need to, to speak up and, and, and in that special, I was, you know, I, I took, I balanced that special. It's a delicate thing to, to sort of take, and hit the lefties in a way that they could handle it. So, and I did that, but, but really my, my, and, and it does seem that the tide is turning, you know, like, you know, Dylan and Schultz and Rogan have become critical.

• 49:24Kara Swisher?

  They're seeing what's happening.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Right, but you know what that means though?

• 49:28Kara Swisher?

  It's over and they need to get back.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, well, right, they, well, I, I, maybe they don't know where it's dragging them, but I think really that a lot of these guys and people in general, they don't have a worldview. They're reacting. Like, I, I don't, you know, I don't think they, they think it through.

• 49:47Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  You know, a couple of guys got mad at me for the, the Riyadh joke. And these are jokes I'm doing. Everything on that special was a joke. And all the stuff that I was doing promoting the special, taking them to task a bit, was, you know, it was done in the spirit of comedy, you know, but these are jokes.

• 50:03Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  But they have some teeth to them and they're... They're not their teeth, right? I just got to the point where it's like, if, you know, lefties or comics that are progressive, they're, it's difficult to talk about politics. And it's difficult to talk about left-leaning politics without, you know, seeming strident and, you know, annoying. And, and so it's, that, then those two things are not great for funny.

• 50:26Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  So.

• 50:27Kara Swisher?

  But you, you've been outspoken against the sort of so-called anti-woke angle in comedy as pure hack. And it is, it's just, it is.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  It's become hack.

• 50:34Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  You know, it's, okay.

• 50:35Kara Swisher?

  It's like a boob joke to me. That's, it's like a boob joke to me.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  A boob joke?

• 50:38Kara Swisher?

  Boob jokes are funnier, but you know what I mean? It's like the easiest joke to do.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Look, a good dick joke is always great.

• 50:45Kara Swisher?

  Listen, I'm, hello, I'm with Scott Galloway all the fucking time, so I'm aware of the situation.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  So, but, but the, the thing that bothered me about that is like, they were, whether they knew it or not, in the beginning of, of anti-wokeness, that that was always like, you know, the Republican, you know,

• 51:07Speaker 01

  what the Republicans and the right have always wanted for the last three or four decades was to dismantle, you know, liberal democracy.

• 51:15Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, some of them are still pissed off about the New Deal. So, you know.

• 51:19Kara Swisher?

  And women's vote, that's.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Right, all of that stuff. And, and this has been brewing for so long, that, you know, when comics get duped into this idea that because they can't say tranny or, or worse words, that somehow or another, that the left is infringing upon their, their freedom of speech, it's so shallow and stupid. And, and because they fought for it, they just became part of the party line of dismantling liberal democracy.

• 51:45Kara Swisher?

  Which they didn't even know.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  It was never a freedom of speech issue. It was never a constitutional issue.

• 51:51Kara Swisher?

  Never.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  You can say whatever you want, and you're just gonna have to shoulder the burden of, of.

• 51:56Kara Swisher?

  Consequences.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, of the consequences. But ultimately what happened, because they were used as cudgels to dismantle the, you know, the entire infrastructure of, of, of DEI and everything else, right? So now, like, they don't have to shoulder anything, because now they can say those words with impunity. Have to have no traction.

• 52:17Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  To to counter it because we're living in two separate worlds. But I I hold them responsible for for for being the front line of.

• 52:26Kara Swisher?

  Being the dupe and the cudgel.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:28Kara Swisher?

  Stup- the stupid hammer.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 52:30Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  It it yeah, I I think that's true. And so for me, it was always a a big picture thing.

• 52:36Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  And now, like, some of them, I don't know if they know that, but they know they they, you know, that it's.

• 52:42Kara Swisher?

  I think they're understanding they're suckers at this point. I think they're getting that the penny is dropping.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  I I think so, you know, and it's just like, you know, what do you do? You know, it's weird. Like, I've been working on this bit, you know, uh, on stage, uh, just about how like that there's going to be people now, MAGA people that are gonna be like, oh, man, I think I screwed up.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  You know, and you're probably gonna come in contact with them. And I think the the instinct of a of a progressive or a left-leaning person is to be like, yeah, you fucking idiot.

• 53:14Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  You broke the world, you dumb shit.

• 53:16Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  What the fuck is wrong with you, stupid?

• 53:21Speaker 01

  And but I I think really the play is to not say anything. But and I'm talking about without the face, none of this. No, you know, none of that. Just, you know, just don't say anything.

• 53:35Kara Swisher?

  Do the face again.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Sit with it.

• 53:36Kara Swisher?

  Do that face again, please.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Just let them sit with it and go, look, you know, we always loved you, Dad, and.

• 53:49Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, good idea. All right. Every episode, we only have a little bit. We were gonna run over a little bit. Every episode, we get a question from.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Run over. You can go as long as you want.

• 53:56Kara Swisher?

  Okay, great, great. Fantastic. Okay.

• 54:02Kara Swisher?

  Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here is yours.

• 54:06Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Tig Notaro, comedian, podcaster, actor, mother, wife, friend, and certified gay person.

• 54:16Speaker 04

  My big question for Marc Maron is, where do you get your gumption? I've told you many times the deep appreciation I have for your continued, strong, steady, outspoken, bold views that really should not be bold views. But they are views that do not line up with the majority of your peers that you came up with. I, I feel like you're truly fighting the good fight and I do not take your voice for granted. You're so important to so many. Where do you get your gumption? I really wanna know, way back when and where it comes from. Thank you, sir.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Oh, I love to, you know, there's a period there, I've known her for a long time.

• 55:01Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Many years, like before she was Tate kinda.

• 55:05Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. There was a period there where we were dressing almost identically.

• 55:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. I can see it. Yeah.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Like.

• 55:14Speaker 04

  You've got a lesbian vibe, sure do.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I do. I know. I know.

• 55:19Speaker 04

  Even the facial hair.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I'm a little bit.

• 55:22Speaker 04

  You're her suit. You'd be a her suit lesbian.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was just very funny because we'd go to festivals or we'd work together and we'd look at each other and like, what is happening? Um, where do I get my gumption? I'm a guy that's like.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  It's a great word.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I, I think I'm, I like to poke.

• 55:41Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  And, and I think that's part of, you know, my comedy and also part of the way that, you know, I, I interact with people that, that it's the opposite of withholding. It's the poking to see if you can get a rise out of people. And I, I, I think I've always sort of done that to, to see if maybe I'd get yelled at or maybe I wouldn't, you know, I don't know what that, that exactly is about, but I'm also somebody who, who, I've said all the things you can say on stage.

• 56:09Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  In my career, in my life, I've made, I wouldn't call them mistakes, but you know, in different times, I've done dubious jokes. I'm not saying I said the N-word, I'm not saying I hurt people, but you know, I, I know I've learned from experience and from people talking to me about what is hurtful, what is wrong, you know, maybe you should think about this a different way. Like I used to do a joke many, many years ago about, about transgender, the idea of it, but you know, and I, it was something to do with like becoming a mythological, you know, entity. And, and, and to me, I thought it was a celebration, but someone said to me, no, it's, it's, it's not correct. You know, I used to do, I used to try to, you know,

• 56:52Speaker 01

  frame the R-word in a way. I always knew it was kind of bad, but the, but there was like in my mind, you know, maybe if we explored it, but then someone said to me like, you know, if you have, you have someone, you know, in your family or your son or your daughter and they're, they're, they're challenged like that, it's, it's incredibly hurtful. So I've made a lot of mistakes personally, in all different ways, and I've, I've learned from those things. And, and, and that makes, for me, the, the passion about my point of view deeper. I'm not just reacting, it's not coming from, you know, I'm not posturing, you know, I, I feel these things. Yeah. And it's not just a fight. And so the gumption is really,

• 57:34Speaker 01

  and it really, what it comes down to is this anger that's popped up a couple of times tonight. Like that happened on the Howie Mandel show because he was like, like it's harder when you're with somebody. Like if you're sitting with somebody that you disagree with, like, you know, if I see Theo, like, you know, when I'm gonna, it's amazing that I haven't, you know, what happens then? You know, if, if I see Joe, or if I see Tony, all of these guys who have-

• 57:58Kara Swisher?

  Will there be a fistfight?

• 57:59Speaker 01

  No, no, no, there won't be a fistfight, but what, what I think what eventually what will happen is unlike, not unlike-

• 58:10Speaker 01

  I guess everyone talks about this time when, when we could put our politics aside and, and still be people with each other. I assume that is probably what will happen. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, I assume that, you know, if I see Theo or Tony or the guys that have spoken, who have responded to me.

• 58:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, they have.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Uh, which is, it's fine. You know, it's, it's a lot. I don't love that. You know, that's the other thing about wanting approval or validation is that, you know, when you're going to speak up, you've got to realize, well, you're not going to get it from everybody, you know, and you've got to live with that.

• 58:50Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:51Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Even if they're your peers.

• 58:52Kara Swisher?

  What does that encounter look like?

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Well, I imagine it would be like, what's up? You know, and they're like, hey.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  So what, what are we, are we, are we good or what are we doing? Yeah, I'm all right. All right. Okay. Well, good to see you. Hope you're well.

• 59:10Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, you know, maybe it'd be like, uh, they'd be like, oh, you're so right.

• 59:18Kara Swisher?

  I don't think so. I don't think so. It would be nice if that was the case. Um, you know, it's interesting, but as you say, you don't like it. I mean, I, unfortunately, the people who insult me, one of them is about to become a trillionaire. So I'm totally fucked. Um, who said I had a heart?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Why? Is he just gonna like crush you with his money?

• 59:36Kara Swisher?

  Yes, he will throw money on top of me. I'll say, please keep throwing. He'll be one of those.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  But it's, it's rigged because he's gonna kill you with the money.

• 59:43Kara Swisher?

  Yes, but he can try. Uh, he can try. I don't think he'll be successful. Um, speaking of Elon Musk, last year Elon Musk went on.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Oh, that guy?

• 59:51Kara Swisher?

  That guy. Trust me. Um, went on Rogan and said, quote, "The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy." Uh, conservative writer Helen Andrews says that demographic feminization that values empathy over rationality has led to wokeness. Essentially, women are empathetic and that leads to bad politics. I want you to kind of make the case for empathy because I think you are very empathetic. At the same time, as you've noted, how do you counter that if you're on the left or progressive? Um, are you doomed to nuance and verboity? Or what is the way to counter that idea?

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  I don't, you know, like, I had to become better at empathy, you know, I had to become a better listener. I think that certain things helped me with, with that. When I, I have to give a lot of credit to recovery, the process of, of listening and, uh, you know, hearing somebody's story and what they've gone through. So, but I do think that this stuff, the, the battle against empathy and the, the battle against self-awareness, which is the other one.

• 1:00:53Kara Swisher?

  Lack of expertise as a plus.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, these are just, you know, tenets of, of fascism.

• 1:00:59Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Uh, and making it work. So, how do you fight that? I mean, obviously, the, you know, I used to do this, this line, like, uh, what they're basically saying is empathy is for suckers.

• 1:01:13Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  And, you, you know, how you calibrate your empathy and how you use it and how you don't get drained by your own empathy, or, or whether your empathy is real or you're really just in some sort of, you know, victim mode that is only feeling exhausted by the, the moral injustice of every day in this country right now. I, I, I think you have to protect yourself on, on some level, uh, to maintain, you know, a righteous anger and, and figure out really how you can use it and how you can best be of service, uh, to other people. But I think a lot of it, you know, and, and I'm guilty of this, is like, how much are you really getting out and doing anything?

• 1:01:55Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, you have, you may feel a certain way and you may believe something is wrong and, you know, you may, uh, post a post or send a check.

• 1:02:04Kara Swisher?

  Hashtag-ism, I think.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, whatever that is, you know, but are you present to, to really be of service and, and really help? And, and, and then when you get into that zone, if you are a sensitive person or, or a person who is full of empathy or broken in a, in a certain way, then you can start beating yourself up for, you know, not being more involved, not doing enough. And then, you know.

• 1:02:26Kara Swisher?

  You don't think you're doing stuff that's really, you are. I mean, obviously, it's transformed lives through your podcast. I don't think you recognize.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I, I don't, I, I'm not saying this about me, uh, you know, I feel like, I'm always surprised that, that making a difference on an individual level, if somebody says to me, you know, I, you know, I was, you know, depressed or, you know, many people, you know, I've helped get sober, uh, or the way I've processed stuff or, or, or speaking out, you know, like, like Tig says, it, it. It does do something. You know, you, I think you can do things without putting yourself in harm's way.

• 1:03:00Kara Swisher?

  How does this, your end, when you think about it? Because, you know, I've had to deal with all the tech oligarchs who have just seemed to have sucked up every bit of oxygen and all the juicy bits in our society.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  But you know, but-

• 1:03:12Kara Swisher?

  How does this end, from your perspective?

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  What, the world?

• 1:03:15Kara Swisher?

  No, no. Probably in a blast, but, but how do you think about this time ending? Where this doesn't seem, where we, I mean, I think it's on the march because Elon, for example, is a good example of this, has turned into a villain when he wasn't necessarily, but has become that. At the same time, he's also about to become the world's richest person ever in history. How does it end? And, and Trump is sort of rotting away in front of our eyes.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know how, how, how it ends because I don't know if, you know, if the agenda was to kill the spirit of the 60s, you know? And, and, and kill the, the progress that was made on a human level in, in this, in relatively democratic format. And the power of technology and, and the access that everyone has to your, to your brain, to your life, and then the people in power, you know more about that stuff than I do. But I, I, I think, I don't know how it ends, but we've got to stop, you know, volunteering for the, the brain fucking.

• 1:04:24Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  And you-

• 1:04:26Kara Swisher?

  Putting-

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  It-

• 1:04:28Kara Swisher?

  And it's not a good fuck. It's not a good fuck.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  No, no, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's just okay.

• 1:04:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  But, you know, if you really think about, like, you know, today, because I think about it all the time, and it's all relative to the monster that you spend your day looking at, that you, your phone. It's all relative to that. I mean, that's everyone's point of access.

• 1:04:52Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  And if you just go on the subway and you, it's like, it's insane that nobody-

• 1:05:00Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Is looking at anybody.

• 1:05:02Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  So I think sadly, the way it ends is everyone just disappears into whatever the other side of that is.

• 1:05:08Kara Swisher?

  Chatbots and avatars and everything.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 1:05:10Kara Swisher?

  That said, when I, something I do a lot, I think you should do it, I think it'd be excellent, is when I'm walking down the street and someone's staring at their phone, I go very close behind them and I go- Look up.

• 1:05:24Kara Swisher?

  And everybody does it.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  For a second.

• 1:05:26Kara Swisher?

  They, no, they do it. They're like, "Oh, I suck."

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Snap me out of it.

• 1:05:29Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yes. It was interesting. They go, "I suck." And then at some point, someone's gonna turn around and shoot me. But, um, but I feel so far, I haven't been shot.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I tried to do a joke about, like, it never seems to really land as a joke, though, about how like, you know, in an authoritarian country, what they really want is for you to, you know, keep your mouth shut and keep your head down.

• 1:05:51Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  And it's so much easier with the phone.

• 1:05:53Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, that's a great joke.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  It always lands as a sort of like, "Mmm."

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  They've never, not a big laugher.

• 1:06:01Kara Swisher?

  Maybe if you include brain fucking in there, it might work.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Well, I do a lot of bits about that because I do think, I'm, I'm sort of, I'm just, I'm working out this stuff.

• 1:06:10Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  You know, for myself. Cause like today, like, you just being on the train here culturally is, is kind of awesome.

• 1:06:17Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  To be on a subway.

• 1:06:18Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  And the people you're surrounded with.

• 1:06:20Kara Swisher?

  Amazing.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  It's, it's, this is like, this is a great example of, of democracy in, on a social level.

• 1:06:27Kara Swisher?

  People banging up against each other, yeah.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, just people like, you know, you got someone sitting on your lap.

• 1:06:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  And you're sort of like, "All right, okay," you know, like.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  And I, I, I just, um, you know, I'm trying, you, you got it, the phone, it's an addiction because it's a full spectrum dopamine jerk-off, right?

• 1:06:50Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  So, and you can spend, and I know, and I, I just share this as, uh, an addict in a room full of addicts. You know, that, an indicator that you are addicted to something is if you've tried to quit and you've failed. And the number of times you've done that would indicate whether or not your life is unmanageable or you're powerless over a substance.

• 1:07:12Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  And I've had many times where I've been sitting with my phone, scrolling, I don't know why they call it doom scrolling, it's fun.

• 1:07:19Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  Like where I've been doing it and I've just said, dude, put the fucking phone down. And some other part of my brain is like, why?

• 1:07:28Kara Swisher?

  Well, you know, there's no other industry where they call, there's one other industry where they call users.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Drugs?

• 1:07:38Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:40Kara Swisher?

  Ah.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Good one.

• 1:07:41Kara Swisher?

  Thank you.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Is that yours?

• 1:07:43Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 1:07:44Kara Swisher?

  Okay, borrow it, take it, steal it, whatever you want. What are you doing next?

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Me?

• 1:07:50Kara Swisher?

  What's your next thing? Hey, you.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  No, uh, well.

• 1:07:51Kara Swisher?

  That lady.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  I thought you were just a general audience question.

• 1:07:55Kara Swisher?

  No.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Where's everyone going? Because we want, um...

• 1:08:00Kara Swisher?

  I'm going to watch the videos on my phone of Trump getting booed at, uh...

• 1:08:05Kara Swisher?

  That will be a satisfying time with my phone.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Um, I, well, I'm working on a new hour of stand-up. It's coming along good. You know, we're, we're probably going to be moving towards a special in that area. I just shot the second season of Stick.

• 1:08:20Kara Swisher?

  Good show.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  With Owen Wilson. That should be coming out in November. And I, I'm trying to put together a movie to direct based on my friend Sam Lipset's novel, No One Left to Come Looking For You.

• 1:08:32Kara Swisher?

  Well, fantastic. I'm looking forward to it. I wish you were still in podcasting. You really were fantastic at it.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Well, I appreciate that and I, I wish that everyone would stop.

• 1:08:42Kara Swisher?

  I know. And yet, and yet, you were really good at it.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 1:08:46Kara Swisher?

  All right. Thank you, Mark Mann.

• 1:08:58Kara Swisher?

  Today's show is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Madeline LaPlante-Duby, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Corwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Julia Sharp Levine, Max Levine, and Bradley Sylvester. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're only following the show, you'll be immortalized in the Oscars montage. If not, maybe they can squeeze you into the daytime Emmys. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.