ICE, Iran and $1,000 ‘Cheap Seats’: The World Cup Returns to the U.S.

When FIFA picked the U. S. to co-host the 2026 World Cup alongside Mexico and Canada, Americans saw it as more than just a boon for the country’s tourism industry — it was a chance to finally prove to the world that the U. S. is a soccer-loving nation. But on the eve of kickoff, the tournament has been overshadowed by exorbitant ticket prices, disappointing global travel projections, the war in Iran, and uncertainty about the Trump administration’s immigration enforcement plans at stadiums. Kara breaks it all down with three experts: Rachel Bachman, senior sports reporter for The Wall Street Journal; Will Leitch, a contributing editor at New York Magazine and the founder of the seminal sports blog Deadspin; and Tariq Panja, a global correspondent at The New York Times who focuses on where money, geopolitics and crime intersect with sports. The four of them talk about the stakes for FIFA’s biggest World Cup and whether the soccer on the field can outshine the controversies surrounding it. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Just step out of your home, go into the streets and enjoy this thing. Because nothing like the World Cup brings people from all over, whether it's within the United States and the incredible diaspora you've got there, or the fans who will be traveling there. When they get together, this is a magical thing.

• 0:33Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. The US is just days away from hosting the equivalent of 78 Super Bowls in the span of a month. I'm talking, of course, about the FIFA World Cup. The US is co-hosting alongside Mexico and Canada. It's the world's largest sporting event, and this year's is the biggest in history, with 48 teams playing more than 100 games across three countries. It's also arguably the most controversial. That's saying a lot, given FIFA's reputation for corruption and scandal. Exorbitant ticket prices, the war in Iran, and fears of immigration sweeps are so far getting more attention than the upcoming games.

• 1:14Kara Swisher?

  And President Trump, the winner of FIFA's cynical Peace Prize, is all but guaranteed to insert politics into the picture. I've got three experts here to talk about the drama around this year's World Cup. Rachel Bachman is a senior sports reporter at The Wall Street Journal, where she's been covering the lead-up to this year's tournament. Will Leitch is a contributing editor at New York Magazine and the founder of the sports blog Deadspin. And Tariq Panja is a global correspondent at The New York Times with a focus on where money, geopolitics, and crime intercept with sports. He's also covered six prior World Cups. I think it's really important as a business story. I think FIFA has been one of the more appalling international organizations, especially giving Trump that Peace Prize, but the corruption, the ticket prices, everything else has sort

• 1:59Kara Swisher?

  of been riveting. And I'm really interested why fans who are at the heart of this, especially fans that don't have the means, that more wealthy people have, can't just go and enjoy this stuff in the way they should. All right, let's get into our conversation. Our expert question comes from my pivot co-host and noted soccer fan, he never stops talking about it, Scott Galloway. Don't go anywhere.

• 2:28Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more. And listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 3:12Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them ever talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try it today for free at Odoo.com/kara. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash Kara.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai/spotify.

• 4:24Kara Swisher?

  Rachel, Will and Tarek, thanks for coming on ON.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Great to be here.

• 4:27Speaker 04

  Thank you for having us.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me.

• 4:29Kara Swisher?

  So, American soccer has come a long way since it last hosted a World Cup in 1994. It's a very long time ago. But for the uninitiator, uninterested, why is the World Cup a great news story from a cultural, geopolitical and business point of view? Rachel, then Will and then Tarek.

• 4:45Speaker 03

  One of the most interesting things is the World Cup is the biggest event in, you know, the headquartered country is the US this year. And it's not the number one sport in the US, but it is the number one sport in the rest of the world. So, that alone makes it interesting.

• 4:58Kara Swisher?

  Well?

• 4:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, and you know, this is a sport that's watched everywhere, right? Like, there's nothing niche about soccer. If anything, the only place it's niche is here. In a lot of ways, I usually watch this in the fjords of Norway, or the, you know, the deserts of Egypt, really across the world. Every eye is going to be on this event, no matter what your political circumstances, or your demographics, or everything. Everyone is always watching the World Cup.

• 5:20Kara Swisher?

  All right, Tarek?

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Nothing is as big as this thing. I was just watching a video of Kerala in India, and there was a 50-meter banner for the Argentinian national team that's been created there, and thousands of people getting to work. Just a little glimpse of how big this thing is. I don't know where you guys are sitting there in the United States of America, you think the Olympics is big. It has nothing on this. The emotion, the passion, and just the virality of this is going to be at a different level to anything that American sports fans are used to.

• 5:55Kara Swisher?

  There's always controversy around FIFA and the World Cup, and it was especially true the last two tournaments hosted by Russia and Qatar. Tarek, what's different about the buildup in criticisms this time? Because here they are again.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  Difference is, this is the United States hosting ostensibly a democracy, so different to Qatar. And slightly different to Russia, but there's been a lot of controversy here. We have issues related to the ICE actions in the US and the people they've been targeting. A lot of those people will be soccer fans, will be football fans, we call them here. They'll be coming from all over the world, all be in the United States, hoping to go to games. I remember last summer, the US hosted the Club World Cup and there were Brazilian teams there, for example. And I talked to some fans of Flamengo, which is Brazil's most popular team, who were living in Boston. Now, they were going to go in convoy to watch the games last summer.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  And at the last minute, they thought, hang on, this might not be a good idea. We don't want to be so visible, driving in this big convoy of Brazilians to this soccer match.

• 7:02Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  And that tells you, that's one of the controversies. I'm sure the others will get into them. Of course, Iran is coming to the World Cup, at least we think they are. This is the first World Cup in history where a host is at war with one of the participants. Right now, so we've got the issues over visas and not just for Iran, but for for other nations. I'm hearing other nations are struggling to to get their visas in time for the World Cup. That's another one. And I'm sure the guys can talk about ticket pricing and sundry other issues related to this World Cup.

• 7:34Kara Swisher?

  So fans, of course, are complaining around the world about the cost of tickets. Rachel, for the first time ever, FIFA is using demand-driven or dynamic ticket pricing. The result is even nosebleed seats for some early games cost more than a thousand dollars. That's many times more expensive than previous World Cups. How do we know about how FIFA decided on these record-high prices? What do we know about it?

• 7:56Speaker 03

  We know very little, and that's part of the mystery of fans and part of fans frustration, right? So one of the distinctive qualities of this World Cup is that FIFA didn't issue a list of ticket prices. It just simply started dropping them on its website in these drips and drabs. And when fans, if they were lucky enough to gain access at early times on that website, they didn't know how many tickets would be left. They didn't know if if that was all they were looking at, was going to be all for the entire turn. Or if there would be future tickets dropped, they didn't know if the prices would rise or fall. So fans have expressed a lot of frustration about just the mystery surrounding even the sales process of these tickets.

• 8:35Kara Swisher?

  Now, you wrote that FIFA is, quote, "leveraging the potent cocktail of American World Cup to pack its war chest with money." Talk about who controls this organization, because we're talking about a projected $11 billion in revenue for what is a notoriously corrupt organization. And of course, the president, FIFA's president, called the US the most developed entertainment market in the world and said ticket prices had to be priced accordingly, meaning we can take your money. I assume that's a version of that.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  I mean ostensibly, who controls FIFA is the 211-member federations, that, you know, the countries around the world who belong to FIFA. But effectively, it's the FIFA Council headed by Gianni Infantino, the president of FIFA. So he and a handful of top FIFA leaders really make most of the decisions. The war chest they're packing, as I mentioned, will eventually be spread out among many of those nations, and that's one of the reasons why Infantino has enjoyed a lot of support during his administration, because he's increased that amount of money that he's been spreading around the globe. And that's one of the opportunities he sees, among others, is the ability to leverage

• 9:42Speaker 03

  the US's incredible buying power, which is far outstrips what it was even in '94, to increase those disbursements around the world even further.

• 9:50Kara Swisher?

  So it's a money grab, essentially. Now, Tarek, FIFA has also set up its own ticket resale market, where it gets 30% cut on all transactions. Other countries have very strict laws about reselling tickets, especially in Europe. The US does not. That's why you're seeing million-dollar price tags for tickets to the final game, for example. So how is FIFA's secondary market exacerbating frustration from fans?

• 10:11Speaker 00

  This thing's remarkable. I think the word "cash grab" was used. And FIFA's justification for this is because, as you said, secondary markets are not only legal but promoted and popular in the United States.

• 10:26Kara Swisher?

  They are.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  In Mexico, for example, you can't do this. So tickets were taken off their secondary market for games in Mexico. Mexico has strict laws, one of the co-hosts. Now FIFA is saying, well, look, if this is happening, why should people outside of the game be making all of this money? We will do it, but they've done it and they've done it on steroids because of the fifteen percent charge from this seller, fifteen percent from the buyer, thirty percent of of those ticket fees will be going to FIFA.

• 10:58Kara Swisher?

  Uh huh.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  This nonprofit organization in Switzerland. Now, the the kind of rapaciousness, this need for all of this money, Rachel has described how FIFA works, I guess, that they've got these two hundred and eleven members. I would argue that FIFA has too much money already. It doesn't know what to do with it. It made seven and a half billion from the last cycle with Qatar and it's dispersing this money, not on a needs basis, the same amount to every country, whether you're Brazil, whether you're San Marino, whether you're the Democratic Republic of Congo, you get this same amount of money and every four years, hey, there's an election, who are you going to vote for?

• 11:38Kara Swisher?

  Uh huh.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  This is not for the benefit of soccer. Gianni Infantino and FIFA say ninety percent of this money goes into football and into soccer, but is it going to soccer in the right way or is this just a way of sort of feathering the nests of of football associations and and I guess other fat cats? And just one final point, in terms of the power, Rachel mentioned the FIFA Council. This is a completely toothless body.

• 12:05Kara Swisher?

  Uh huh.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  It meets three or four times a year, often not in person, maybe a Zoom meeting. Each of those members gets a minimum of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year just to show up at this virtual meeting or in person meeting. Nothing is really discussed in any meaningful way. Decisions have already been taken by the most powerful people, probably a handful of three, five men outside of this with Gianni Infantino and the regional soccer heads. And that is how soccer works and then the show rolls on.

• 12:37Kara Swisher?

  So, Will, FIFA is right that Americans are used to big markups, to resell tickets and dynamic pricing for live events. We also see dynamic pricing for airlines. Tickets, ride sharing prices, hotel rooms, even grocery stores. This seems like a tipping point in some way. According to The Athletic, there are still thousands of tickets for sale. The US opener against Paraguay. If the market isn't bearing the higher ticket prices, then why are prices so high? And I'd love you to compare them to games in Canada and Mexico, for example.

• 13:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, one of the interesting things about this, too, is, you know, FIFA is also controlling the supply of these tickets. So I'm based out of Athens, Georgia, so I'm covering the games in Atlanta. There is a game at like 2:30 in the afternoon on a Wednesday that has a 450 minimum pricing. I feel comfortable saying that is not the market deciding that price.

• 13:25Kara Swisher?

  That's a lot of money, yes.

• 13:26Speaker 04

  And if you even look at a lot of these resale sites, there are not actually that many tickets even available. There are big, open swaths of the stadium where you couldn't buy tickets if you wanted to. That makes a lot of people think that FIFA is still artificially not unleashing these tickets, not putting out a lot of these tickets to make it look like there is this massive demand. The problem is, is you can try that for a while. Eventually, they're not going to let these tickets, theoretically, anyway, will not actually let these venues be empty. That's why when people keep asking me, the number one question people ask me about the World Cup is, seriously, why is this so expensive? I really just want to say, just wait.

• 14:01Kara Swisher?

  Wait, they're artificially quashing spaces so that it seems like there's more spaces.

• 14:05Speaker 04

  And part of the reason they can do this, too, is because, you know, this is not like the NFL has to come back next year. Baseball has to come back next year. The NBA has to come back next year. FIFA is showing up and they're like, they're getting their money and they're getting out. And I think that, as Rachel kind of spoke about before, a lot of this is FIFA. This has been the World Cup they've been waiting for. They've been waiting to get this US market. They've been waiting to get everything they can out of this. They are going to milk every single penny out of this that they can because they don't worry about, oh, well, I hope the US soccer fans don't get angry and don't buy tickets in four years. They're going to be all on to the next thing. And I think that's the strategy.

• 14:44Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. New Jersey and New York have subpoenaed FIFA over the prices, whether it misled fans about ticketing categories. By the way, California is also looking into the ticketing schemes and European fans have lodged a formal complaint in Brussels. Rachel, we're just a few days from the kickoff. Could these have any impact on the tournament, on the prices and FIFA more broadly?

• 15:04Speaker 03

  Well, I think in the short term, on the tournament, no. I don't think anything is going to happen before the tournament. On the prices, probably no either. I mean, it's quite possible there might be some settlement over the long term. And in terms of FIFA's behavior, you know, they claim that they've sold 90% of the roughly 6 million tickets available, which, you know, at the prices they're offering them, sounds pretty good, if that is the case. So I don't see them, you know, short of some massive injunction. And especially since, as Will pointed out, they're not coming back here anytime soon. I don't see them necessarily altering their behavior.

• 15:42Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace.

• 16:25Kara Swisher?

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• 16:57Speaker 05

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• 17:28Kara Swisher?

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• 18:34Kara Swisher?

  So, Tarek, given this steep price of entry for even some of the less exciting games, that's going to change the profile of who's sitting in the stands and who can afford it. Talk about, how does that affect the vibes at these stadiums and why should we care about that? Why is that important?

• 18:48Speaker 00

  It's important because what the World Cup is, is not just what happens on the field. It is the backdrop, it's the pageantry of a World Cup game with these supporters who are coming from... Wherever they come from, all over the world, particularly, I found recently, tournaments have been enlivened by the presence of South American fans, for example, Argentines in Qatar were magical. That World Cup obviously had a real tough backdrop to it with with the buildup. We don't need to get into all of the various issues with Qatar. Europeans stayed away in ways that they didn't in Russia four years earlier. And there was a worry that the atmosphere would suffer.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  And then here come the Argentines, thousands upon thousands of these people. Their team made it to the final and won it. And the sound of Argentines all over Doha is still ringing in my ears. In fact, where they were staying in Doha, they stayed in this migrant worker residential zone. I think it was called Al Wakra outside of Doha. And they are so fondly remembered there that the neighborhood has been renamed Argentine neighborhood. So that's what it's still called.

• 20:05Kara Swisher?

  Oh, wow.

• 20:06Speaker 00

  The fans are a big part of the story.

• 20:07Kara Swisher?

  You also profiled Argentinian fans who are taking on thousands of dollars in debt to come to the US. So when you spoke to them, some still hadn't bought their tickets yet. They're hoping to find someone to get there. What does it say not only about the true cost for international fans, but also the depth of passion that FIFA is able to monetize?

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a sense that their their kind of passion and their almost obsession with this thing is being abused by FIFA. One of the things that separate this from, say, hotels and airlines is FIFA is a monopolist. There's no other official seller of World Cup tickets. It's this or nothing. And and and these people, they feel like they're protagonists. Their team needs them in the stadium to do well. They come as a package deal. Messi on the field and his friends and us on the sidelines. And I couldn't believe some of the things people are doing like maxing out as many credit

• 21:10Speaker 00

  cards as possible, borrowing from friends, neighbors, guys holding a raffle, a woman was talking about selling her car, like live for today, live for this World Cup, it happens every four years, we live in a topsy turvy country where everything is possible anyway economically, let's just try and do this because guess what, this is one of the things that we are known for, this is one of the things that Argentina is known positively for around the world and we got to go and represent. And there were some people who were saying, look, even if I don't get a ticket, I need to be near there, I need to be with my people and that's part of it as well, the journey.

• 21:52Kara Swisher?

  Well, one of the things, I don't feel like we're going to name something in Argentine neighborhood in this country for right now, Will, for international travel, there's a lot of confusion about, as you said, visa requirements and steep fees imposed by the Trump administration. Of course, ICE agents will be at stadiums. DHS is offering to send agents to help local police departments with security, but it's denied plans for major sweeps. How real is that fear though of coming here?

• 22:17Speaker 04

  I think it's kind of undeniable. You know, for the record, this was also a concern with the Club World Cup and it didn't really turn out then. But the fact is, is, you know, it speaks to among, we haven't even gotten to the issues of how the United States is currently seen around the world right now, for them to be hosting the World Cup. But I mean, this is at the center of it, right? The idea of, sure, the administration says that ICE will just be helping out and they won't be actually doing enforcement. I would not blame anyone for perhaps being, having a touch of skepticism. I think about that along with a lot of other things. But also, even if they don't, the fact that that is something that is at the centerpiece of any world traveler that would want to come to the games that were supposed to, like this was the World Cup that was supposed to be

• 23:01Speaker 04

  the one that went smoothly, right? There was so much worry about Qatar, there was so much worry about Russia. This was supposed to be the US, not just like taking its place.

• 23:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, we weren't supposed to be the problematic country.

• 23:10Speaker 04

  Yes. And also, this was, we talked about 1994 earlier, this was supposed To be the culmination of the American soccer moment like this was something that they've been building for such a long time. You remember the MLS started after the nine four World Cup. And so a lot of that was all based in this notion that, you know, this was supposed to be one of the best generations of the US men's team. This is supposed to all be building up for this culmination moment. And the US is, I think, perceived as perhaps not at its best.

• 23:39Kara Swisher?

  Yes, no, we're not the best world citizens. So Rachel, speaking of that, a recent survey found that 80% of hotels and host cities are not seeing the bookings they forecasted. International tourism to the US was also way down last year. Four million fewer people visited than the year prior, the first drop since COVID. Trump and his policies are the big reason why. Cities and local businesses have been promised a windfall from global tourism during the World Cup. And if it doesn't materialize, what are the knock on effects?

• 24:05Speaker 03

  Well, one of the immediate knock on effects is a lot of the host cities are not going to turn a profit or at least pay for their expenses, which are pretty considerable. One of the reasons why you're seeing, for instance, in Boston and in New York, these really high train costs that have made a lot of these $150, $100 for train rides that usually cost, you know, 12 or 13 bucks, is because the host cities are trying to recoup whatever money they can. So that's sort of the immediate knock on effect. And longer term, of course, you know, there's the tourism effect, right? I mean, America is usually a very attractive place to visit. It's pretty unwieldy to visit, but this certainly had the promise of something that had a pretty rosy glow to it. But given the backdrop, I think it's fair to say that that glow hasn't quite materialized. Sometimes when

• 24:50Speaker 03

  the games start, it changes. But, you know, I spoke with one fan in Amsterdam who had been to a couple of previous World Cups. And he said, you know, I'm going to watch in the street, put a TV out and have my neighbors come and watch because I just don't want to go to the US right now.

• 25:04Kara Swisher?

  So do you sense it's the cost or is it Trump?

• 25:07Speaker 03

  I think it's a variety of factors. I mean, I think the number one reason is the cost, because if people are hardcore enough soccer fans, and they really want to come here, I think most people will try to make it. But certainly, you know, Trump is not terribly popular in Europe, and the Dutch fan I talked to said that. That was his line in the sand. He didn't want to go to an event on American soil, given the political backdrop right now.

• 25:30Kara Swisher?

  So the US is also in the middle of a war with Iran, as you noted. The Iran men's team is set to play its three group stage games in the US. As of our taping late Wednesday, no one with the team has been issued US visas. They reported they may get them Friday. Their training base was also moved to Mexico. Terrick, as you said, this marks the first time in World Cup history the host country has been at war with a qualified nation. How complicated do you think this is going to get?

• 25:54Speaker 00

  It's extremely complicated. I was with the Iranian team last week in Turkey, where they've been at training camp. And my overwhelming sense was I was feeling very sorry for these players. Like I said, a World Cup happens every four years. It is such the high point of their lives. And this fog of uncertainty will remain over their presence until the ball is kicked in that first game against New Zealand for them in Los Angeles. So you mentioned they're now going to go to Mexico. They're going to Tijuana. They

• 26:33Speaker 00

  were supposed to be in Tucson, in Arizona, where they were going to train. Logistically, it's closer to LA. But that is across a border. They almost have a black mark against them. There's 48 teams at the World Cup. But this one is going to have to go through all of these hurdles. Meanwhile, we're having so many comments, both from American officials and Iranian officials, that are contradictory. Like the same guy who says we won't be coming, then will say, well, of course FIFA will have to create the conditions because we qualified

• 27:13Speaker 00

  on merit. We should be playing. This is FIFA's competition, not the US's competition. Now, the next stage, as you said, there is these visa issues. They need to be issued. What I understand is it's not player by player. They've applied as a group. They'll get these visas as a squad of players, both for Mexico, multiple entry for Mexico and the US because of the nature of the tournament and their tournament. And, yeah, it's just... It's just, it just feels very much a dampener, right? On, for them, their people.

• 27:49Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. We saw some players on staff of the Iranian women's soccer team apply to defect to Australia during this year's Women's Asia Cup. Most of them withdrew those applications, two players chose to remain. Could that happen here?

• 28:01Speaker 00

  Of course it could. Of course it could happen because what, what we were talking about with the, the women in Australia was they were overseas at an international soccer tournament. And it happened straight after the war. And there was, in their case, it was about how they behaved during the national anthem. I think they didn't sing the national anthem. There was, there was uproar on, on social media in Iran. And I think there were, you know, people in Australian rights groups, et cetera, who were, who were talking to them. And that led to a group of them deciding to stay back and apply for asylum.

• 28:43Speaker 00

  And that number then was reduced to, I think, maybe only two or three by the end of it. Some decided to go back. Now, can you imagine the pressure on these people? If, yes, you're going to claim asylum, you're overseas, but guess what? Most of your family is still in Iran.

• 28:58Kara Swisher?

  Right, exactly.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  Right. There, there's huge pressures on these people. And, and to try and almost make them political figures, I can understand exactly why they would be seen that way because they're wearing the shirt, they're singing, they are the symbol of this country at war with the United States in the biggest event in the world.

• 29:18Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 29:18Speaker 00

  This is hard.

• 29:18Kara Swisher?

  Although I suspect a lot of Americans are not as angry as, at Iran as Trump is. But, so, so Will, you had a piece in New York Magazine, how conversations around politics and sports are about to get a lot louder. This will be a Trump World Cup, he will put himself at the center of it. What does it mean for the average American athlete to have to navigate US politics on the world stage and also casual fans who just want to root for their home team?

• 29:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, I actually think we got a pretty good example of this with the hockey team, actually, in the Olympics, where the idea of, no, it was, I think it was a lot about Cash Patel, you know, pounding his drinks, his beers in there. But the thing that actually I think hit a lot of people even harder was when Trump called in and essentially insulted the women's team and kind of mocked the women's team in this moment where instantly, you know, one of the things that was really interesting is, you think about these American hockey players, they had not won gold medals since the famous miracle on ice team. You'd have to imagine all of them like, oh, my gosh, we won the gold medal. We are going to never have to buy a drink in this country again. And a week later, people were like

• 30:22Speaker 04

  barely cheering for them on Saturday Night Live. And it became this instantly polarizing thing. And what's interesting, too, is this is a casual fan event. Like, certainly the hardcore fans, I love soccer, everybody here on this panel, we're all into soccer. We're really into it. But like, like the Olympics, the World Cup is kind of for casuals, right? That's part of the fun of this, is you can kind of come in, people can kind of pay attention, really, really get into it, and then move on. The Olympics are similar in this way. And we saw that with the hockey team. I think there were, there were frankly, a lot of new hockey fans minted from heated rivalry and then came over to go watch the men's team, got really excited, and then like, learned, oh, no, they're not actually fictional characters from this show that I like. They actually have their own opinions,

• 31:07Speaker 04

  and they're going to react differently in these situations. That kind of test that I don't, wouldn't say the hockey team failed, but it was an impossible one to pass, I would say, is the sort of thing that is undeniably something you're going to see with members of this US team, if they, now, it's if they advance, of course.

• 31:23Kara Swisher?

  You've got to keep Cash Patel out of the room, is really what has to happen.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  Well, I feel pretty confident that Cash Patel's probably not watching a lot. So he's more of a hockey guy.

• 31:31Kara Swisher?

  Is there beer there? He'll be there. Rachel, he'll be there. All of this raises, obviously, a big question about security around the stadiums. The US is hosting equivalent of 78 Super Bowls in about a month. But DHS officials admitted that 75-day shutdown earlier this year had disrupted preparations for the tournament. How prepared is the US to protect fans and teams at these games at this moment?

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Well, this is part of the federal responsibility of hosting the tournament. And, you know, the proof is when the games start, right? An example of this was in 2024, the Copa America soccer tournament, where some fans really overran the stadium in Miami, one of the stadiums that also will host World Cup games. That absolutely cannot happen, anything like that this time, because the stakes are even higher. And, you know, as was the case with that match, there might be situations where there are, you know, thousands of fans that don't have tickets to the game, but are just caught up in the moment and, you know, celebrating. And I don't know that we'll really know what the prep is like until one of these huge group stage games happens, like, for instance, Portugal, Colombia, which is also actually at that stadium in Miami.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  That's a group stage game that I wrote about that has now a get-in resale ticket price of starting at $2,500. That's not FIFA's fault, that's purely demand-driven. But, you know, a game like that will be an early test of just how ready the US security apparatus is.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  And then they have the Scots rolling in, of course, against Brazil. So again, that stadium is going to get a lot of tests. Just on this, though, I would say that tournament in 2024, that was not a FIFA tournament. FIFA, for, you know, all the criticism, one thing it's very good at is organizing World Cups. It's got a lot of history in doing this. I've always said, you can host this tournament on the moon. They just pack up, they've got a book. The World Cup, it works like this. The security searches, the perimeter, all of this. That game, and it was remarkable. There were people clambering into the stadium,

• 33:37Speaker 00

  climbing through air conditioning vents to try and get into that stadium. I just don't think, however much the desire to get into this stadium is, any of these guys will get anywhere near a FIFA World Cup stadium in the US, Miami included. But I guess we're going to have to see that.

• 34:09Speaker 06

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• 35:21Speaker 02

  This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai/spotify.

• 35:47Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher, and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 36:23Kara Swisher?

  So let's zoom out and look at the big picture, the issues, what they add up to. Now, when you look at everything, there's a lot of flashing red lights around the tournament just days before kickoffs. What's the stake, well, if this World Cup falls way short of expectations in terms of attendance, revenue, local impact, at this point, what can be done? I think nothing, correct?

• 36:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, I certainly feel it'll be something that may be felt more locally than with FIFA moving forward. I think they're going to be fine. They're going to be fine out of this. I was so glad that Rachel brought that up earlier about those trains that were, the buses that were going out to New Jersey, because there was this big, like, how could New Jersey Transit do this? But it's like, for crying out loud, I mean, they didn't ask for it for suddenly to have to deal with all of this massive security thing and all of these things. You talk about the different Super Bowls going on. If you remember when the Super Bowl happened in East Rutherford about a decade ago, it was a huge mess. It was a huge, huge mess. And I think there was a sense that they would be more ready for things now, because this would be bigger.

• 37:24Speaker 04

  So more money was spent, more expectations were had, more things were set up, and they're just not coming through. Again, not a problem for FIFA. They're going to be just fine in this, but these, so many of these, not just the hotels, but like, all these local businesses, they're not the ones. It's a common mistake that a lot of sports leagues in America will love to claim, oh, well, we're actually, you have to build us a stadium, because it will actually help the community and it will give jobs to everyone. That doesn't usually pay off. But certainly with this, there is, like, this is where the FIFA Traveling World Show really, really affects, because basically, they come in, get everything that came out of this, and whatever happens outside of that, hey, if you can't make money off the World Cup, then we'll take it. And I think that that is, I think, what you've really kind of been seeing.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Well, just on this, it's the municipalities, the public money that we should really be thinking about here, more than the private sector, because these cities have spent public money to host the World Cup, significant public money. And what they were promised was like, you spend this, but you're going to have opportunities to make money back, that public money you've spent. And the big one was sponsorship. FIFA had said to the cities, you know what? Because you're doing all of this for us, we're going to give you a chance to do local sponsorship in your cities. And then whenever they've tried to do this, almost at every turn, they've been blocked. By guess who? By FIFA itself, saying, actually, no, no, no, no, that's our category.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Oh, you want that one? Well, that's also ours. Uh, yeah, you might be able to get a local pizza dealership.

• 38:59Kara Swisher?

  Mattress guy.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So, so that money hasn't arrived.

• 39:03Kara Swisher?

  But how big a risk is a half-filled stadium? Embarrassing, correct?

• 39:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:07Kara Swisher?

  Rachel.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  The last time World Cup stadium in my mind has been empty was kind of before this, these times we live in. I remember some games at Italia ninety, for example, being empty. Um, and that football was obviously hugely popular in Europe and in South America. But travel wasn't as easy as it has become since then.

• 39:31Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  Hooliganism was a thing back then. Like, we are in a different paradigm. And don't forget, nineteen ninety-four, I think, still holds the record for the best-attended World Cup. And, and that was with twenty-four teams. It grew, um, to thirty-two since then. So, so that's what you're competing with. So it'd be really sad if America could fill stadiums in nineteen ninety-four, when soccer was not popular. What are we saying about the state of this today?

• 40:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, we have to bring in Taylor Swift, obviously.

• 40:04Speaker 04

  And that speaks to the general, just the incredible frustration that so many people involving US soccer, that this was supposed to be the one. This is something they've been working on for a long time. Again, ninety-four launched so much soccer in this country. And in the last ten years, there was so much buildup. And then this really kind of started when the United States failed to qualify. That shifted a lot. That shifted a lot of attention, a lot of money. And it's a shame because this US soccer generation of players was supposed to be the one that was built up to have this. Tarek is right. The idea that nineteen ninety-four, when it was just, they're playing, well, what is this tournament? This is so fascinating, this thing that was happening in the United States, was such a big thing.

• 40:45Speaker 04

  The fact that you would have gone actually backwards, not only does it look bad now, it looks awful for the United States, a place that was supposed to be the growth industry of soccer, was supposed to be a thing that was supposed to move forward.

• 40:58Kara Swisher?

  The drama around the men's World Cup also affecting plans for the US to co-host the women's World Cup in 2031. The confirmation's been delayed because the White House hasn't signed government guarantees. The Trump administration is reportedly pressuring FIFA to ban trans athletes from competing before it does so. Host cities also want better deals than they're getting for the men's tournaments now. What could it mean for the US-led bid to host the women's World Cup?

• 41:21Speaker 03

  I think it'd be huge. I mean, for one reason, you know, this World Cup is the biggest ever with 48 teams, and the women's tournament is also going to increase to 48 teams that year, 2031. I mean, that would just be enormous for the women's game, which is much younger. Men's World Cup started in 1930, the women's started in 1991, so FIFA definitely has some catching up to do. And the US, there's no question, the US has been the standard bearer. I mean, it has the best women's program historically, won the most World Cups, and also 1999. I think that also, at least on average, that in terms of average attendance, that women's World Cup still holds the record for attendance.

• 41:57Kara Swisher?

  But is that at risk now, do you think?

• 41:59Speaker 03

  I don't think so, and the reason is because of the money. Even if this World Cup falls short of what people are hoping, there's, you know, the big games are still going to be full, they're still going to be sold out, FIFA's still going to make its massive bag, and there's still the promise of the American market coming out. In fact, I would argue that some people who were frustrated that they couldn't afford tickets to the men's World Cup might be thrilled to get tickets to the women's World Cup, which even in 2031 will probably still be less expensive. And of course, you have the women's team at the center of it with a chance to, once again, go to the final. So I would say that's still pretty attractive, and US would definitely want to host it. And I know that Gianni Infantino would want to send it back here.

• 42:40Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  So I think it's almost a fait accompli at this point.

• 42:44Kara Swisher?

  Right. Every episode, we get an expert question from an outside expert. Here's yours.

• 42:49Speaker 07

  Hi, my name is Guy Galloway. I work with Kara Swisher and I'm an enormous football fan. I go to Premier League games probably once every other week. I've been to the World Cups in Russia and in Qatar and absolutely adore the World Cup and I'll go to several games in America. I can't think of an organization that has a better product and a worse brand. Corruption, bribery, $38,000 tickets for the final and a peace award to a president who is bombing nations over and over.

• 43:26Speaker 07

  Why on earth would you take the purity of this sport and pervert it so badly with politics, with extreme pricing that basically makes sure that anyone who's really loves the game is just there on kind of a corporate outing in a town? So my question is this, with respect to brand. How could you be so fucking stupid? Thanks.

• 43:52Kara Swisher?

  Well, Will, then Tarek, then Rachel. How could they be so fucking stupid?

• 43:58Speaker 04

  Well, they can be so fucking stupid because they're gonna walk away with so much money in this. Like, the purity that he's talking about is exactly what allows all this to happen. The fact is, I was talking to Roger Bennett, who hosts the M and Blazer podcast, we'll be kind of doing a tour of the World Cup, and he was talking about how, at a certain level, when these games start, all of that just fades away. It doesn't actually go away. But when you're watching, like, at a certain level, the event itself is so exciting and the things, the emotional attachment we have to this, all these pageantry and all the incredible things that come into this, at a certain level, we want to think about that. We don't want to think about this other stuff. The NFL used to call this a off-season problem.

• 44:42Speaker 04

  Like, all those big scandals that would all pop up. The minute they kicked the game off over Labor Day, it all went away until the season was over and then they had to all deal with it again. I think that is not dissimilar.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  Simply put, I think it's the equivalent of having monopoly on water. Why do you care about the brand when you have this product that everyone wants to buy? They know people will keep buying it. It doesn't hurt them at all. They are the masters of this universe. There's nobody else out there.

• 45:12Kara Swisher?

  So that's it, monopoly. Rachel?

• 45:14Speaker 03

  I think sports fans have become just masters at compartmentalization. I think, you know, all of us are very jaded about all kinds of public institutions, from politics to governing bodies, that we've become experts at separating one from the other. And I think that's what's going to happen here again. It's, people love the games and the pageantry, you know, and that stuff is still around.

• 45:34Kara Swisher?

  But at the same time, America, it's not just the World Cup that's painfully expensive. We're also seeing four and five-figure price tags for tickets to the NBA Finals for Americans. What does this say about who professional sports are for now? What happens when the average fan gets priced out of team successes?

• 45:52Speaker 04

  I think what, sports reflects the larger society. It always has. And the notion that always, sports have always been more for the wealthy than they have been for the needy. But as that gap continues to expand, as we see particularly in the United States, sports is going to reflect that. That is independent of FIFA. That is independent of supply and demand and all of the things that they're doing and the corruption of these things. At a certain level, sports, whether it wants to or not, whether people want to keep politics out of sports or not, these things reflect the society that they exist in. And I think that you're seeing that in the world. You're seeing that specifically very much in the United States. And so therefore, you're seeing it in sports.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, as someone who's not an American, I do find it strange. I mean, like Will, you said, like, sports has always been for the wealthy. In Europe or in South America, these sports clubs, they grew from working-class roots. It's for working-class people. This is where they sprung up from, really. And it was the only thing.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  After being, say, in a mine that will bring everyone together for cheap and watch the local football team. And now we're seeing the inverse of this with these ticket prices flying up. Yes, for the World Cup, we're also seeing in the Premier League. I mean, Scott Galloway there, I'm sure he's not short of a few quid going to a Premier League game every other week. He's still mad. He's gonna go to a few World Cup games. But I mean, that is also, I guess, a reflection of who the modern stadium attendee is. So we're seeing here in the Premier League, almost an attack on season ticket holders because those tickets are cheaper. And then clubs are trying to pry those season tickets back so they can start selling them

• 47:40Speaker 00

  at higher prices for tourists who will attend, pay more money, buy product. So it's getting removed from the actual roots of what these community clubs are, what these clubs were, to an asset class, I guess.

• 47:55Speaker 03

  And I would add, actually, that, you know, unlike in Europe and in some cases in South America, the US really has no organized fan opposition. You know, there have been cases in Europe, from what I understand, that fan groups have organized and successfully beaten back, you know, season ticket price hikes and so on. And that just doesn't happen in the US. I mean, very rarely. So for whatever reason, if it's because that our sports didn't necessarily, you know, evolve the same way, the fans are just sort of powerless or not using their power.

• 48:23Kara Swisher?

  Or they throw things. That's how we take care of it. They throw things at the people. So we talk a lot about the negatives around the World Cup, but there will still be a lot of great soccer to watch and get excited about. It's also expected to be the final World Cup for some legends of the game like Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Let's end there. When it comes to the actual games, what are each of you going to be watching for? And for fans who still want to watch, can't justify the headaches of going to a game, how can they still find ways to enjoy the tournament if you're not actually going to it? Let's start with Tarek, then Will, then Rachel.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  I think this tournament represents the end of an era. You mentioned those two gentlemen there, Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo. It's been a privilege for us to be around while they've been around. This sport is century old, we're almost at 100 years of the World Cup. These two guys coming together at the same time and giving us this this quality is is something that we may never see again.

• 49:19Kara Swisher?

  Oh, we will. Stop it. Go ahead.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Just just the idea of these two guys, maybe the final curtain on on these guys. But then the the beauty of this is this tournament gives a platform to the new generation. Who are the next ones? And and for me, I'm very much looking forward to see if Lamine Yamal of Spain, teenager, precociously talented, already done many things. If he steps up and and dominates the World Cup, that would be incredible to see. And there are many others, you know, Michael Elise from from France, Kylian Mbappe, of course. And I can go on and on and on, and I won't. But this is this is a, as as Wilson, once the ball gets rolling, we we will get captivated by this tournament. There's going to be incredible storylines.

• 50:06Speaker 00

  Players who emerge and for people who don't want to mortgage their house to buy a ticket to Jordan versus Uzbekistan, whoever, they could just step out of your home, go into the streets and enjoy this thing because nothing like the World Cup brings people from all over, whether it's within the United States and the incredible diaspora you've got there, or the fans who who will be traveling there. When they get together, this is a a magical thing where where humanity comes together for this one moment. And it is absolutely wonderful. If anyone was in Moscow the night before the start of the 2018 World Cup,

• 50:48Speaker 00

  they would have seen an incredible sight near Red Square, a parade of fans. You walk 10 meters, you see Argentinians, Brazilians, Mexicans, Egyptians going crazy about Mohamed Salah. It it was something that.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  You won't find anywhere else and we'll have to wait another four years to see it again. So if you're in one of those towns, just open your front door, get out there and soak it all up.

• 51:15Kara Swisher?

  And see the humanity, oh, the humanity. Will?

• 51:19Speaker 04

  One thing that seems very clear that will happen from this is this thing's going to get excellent TV ratings. And one of the reasons, and I think you're going to hear a lot of stories about like, wow, the ratings are up from Qatar and Russia. And a lot of that will be simply because these are perfect television times. And I think that like the start times for these games, until the World Cup final, the biggest, most watched American soccer game ever was in 2015 in the Women's World Cup, when the US won. And that was a great team, full of big personalities. It was also helped out that the game literally started at 6:30 Eastern Time on a Sunday. It became like this. And that is one of the beautiful things about the World Cup. Just from a purely not going to the game and just

• 52:01Speaker 04

  a consumerist, sort of casually enjoy perspective, they're going to be going on all the time. You're not going to be able to walk through any downtown in any city in the United States, or really, obviously, any city in the world, and not have there be a game on somewhere and some sort of claimer and activity happening. And I think that that's one of the really, really fun things for the world.

• 52:20Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, they've done a great job. And online, too, by the way, you can consume a lot.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  They're going to make a lot of money, Fox, aren't they? They got these World Cups for three times less than they should have paid. So someone's walking away to the bank there, eh?

• 52:32Kara Swisher?

  I always feel so sorry for Rupert Murdoch if he's okay.

• 52:35Speaker 04

  You have to.

• 52:36Kara Swisher?

  You have to. You've just got to be like, this old man needs some dough. Rachel, why don't you finish up?

• 52:40Speaker 03

  So the US is great at most sports, right? Except in this one, in men's sports. So I actually am rooting for the men's team. And in fact, the entire US Soccer Federation was in huge disarray just several years ago. You know, open warfare with their flagship women's team over this equal pay lawsuit. You know, their president resigned over several conflicts. They now, their president is now one of the few women to head a soccer federation globally. Cindy Parlo Cohen, a former player on the women's team. And I would argue it's in the best shape of its life. I mean, Revenues are way up. They just opened a massive training center in the Atlanta area. So the US is actually on an upward arc. And, you know, this will be the the

• 53:25Speaker 03

  final test to see if if the men's team can can come through. But it's been incredible comeback already for American men's soccer generally.

• 53:33Kara Swisher?

  All right. Any predictions who's going to win? Any of you going to dare it? Give me.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  France or Spain?

• 53:38Kara Swisher?

  France or Spain? Will?

• 53:40Speaker 04

  Spain sounds right to me.

• 53:43Kara Swisher?

  Rachel?

• 53:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know if this has ever happened. Tarek can tell me. Has the men's and women's, have they ever had back to back similar winners? Spain is the reigning women's champion. So if Spain won the men's World Cup, too, this would be quite the the twofer.

• 53:58Kara Swisher?

  Spain?

• 53:59Speaker 00

  It's a good question.

• 54:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 54:01Speaker 04

  Well, the US has won too many in the women's, so.

• 54:05Speaker 03

  Right. And US men certainly haven't won back to back. So yeah, certainly the likelihood is Spain and following up with the women's title would be remarkable.

• 54:14Speaker 00

  And another important prediction, Messi and Argentina, I think, will go out against the first good team that plays them.

• 54:20Kara Swisher?

  Wow.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  Ciao, Argentina.

• 54:22Kara Swisher?

  Oh, whoa. They're going to be very mad at you right now. They're going to come in their convoy.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  Please write to Kara Swisher.

• 54:28Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 54:30Kara Swisher?

  Anyway, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Rachel, Will and Tarek. Thank you.

• 54:34Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 54:35Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 54:40Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Rosell, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Madeline LaPlante-Duby, Megan Burney and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eamon Whelan and Max Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're watching Messi and Argentina. If not, you're watching Uzbekistan play the Democratic Republic of Congo. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.