When the Wellness Narrative Breaks: Truth, Discernment & Women's Safety

In this episode of The Resetter Podcast, Dr. Mindy Pelz sits down with Sara Szal for a thoughtful conversation about discernment, trust, and why so many women are quietly questioning the wellness and health narratives they were once told to accept. Rather than telling listeners what to believe, this discussion explores how to think, how to stay grounded, curious, and connected to your intuition without slipping into fear, cynicism, or blind trust. Together, they talk about power, silence, authority, and why learning to ask better questions is an essential part of women's health, safety, and self-trust. This episode is an invitation to slow down, reflect, and reconnect with your inner guidance in a world full of noise. Content Disclosure: This episode includes discussion of sensitive cultural topics, institutional power, and public narratives. References to public figures or events are discussed in the context of widely known conversations and public information, not as allegations or accusations. The views expressed are intended to encourage discernment and critical thinking, not to present medical, legal, or investigative claims. Listener discretion is advised. To view full show notes, resources mentioned, discount codes, transcripts, and more, visit https://drmindypelz.com/ep326/ Check out our community membership at https://resetacademy.drmindypelz.com Please note our medical disclaimer.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Mindy Pelz?

  Okay, let me ask you a personal question. And this one is a really important one, which is, when was the last time you had your vitamin D checked? And I'm saying this because in all my years of working with women, low vitamin D is one of the most consistent findings I see, and one of the most consistently missed. And vitamin D matters for so many aspects of your health. We're talking about a deficiency that can show up as hormonal imbalance, mood struggles, poor sleep, immune issues, even stubborn weight that won't budge no matter what you do. But here's the part that most people don't know.

• 0:43Mindy Pelz?

  Taking an isolated D3 supplement isn't enough. This isn't like just running down to the local store and grabbing some D3. Your body actually needs D3 to be combined with very specific cofactors to actually absorb and utilize vitamin D the way nature intended it. And most supplements on the market don't include these cofactors. That's why I personally love Cataplex D from Standard Process. It's a whole food supplement. It's vitamin D complex, not just an isolated nutrient. There's an incredible difference between checking a box and actually moving the needle on your health, and this one really moves the needle.

• 1:27Mindy Pelz?

  In fact, in my clinic, we used to test vitamin D, and we could see with a product like Cataplex D, we could see on lab work, the vitamin D levels in people go up. So you can learn more and you can get yourself some vitamin D. You can test out Cataplex D at drmindypels.standarprocess.com. Enjoy.

• 1:58Mindy Pelz?

  On this episode of the Resetter Podcast, I'm bringing you something really unique. I have never done this before. This podcast was actually, I called it this morning, "My Dear Friend Dr. Sarah Sazal" because of the current events that are going on, not only in the world, but in the wellness space. And I wanted to have a chat with her about a prominent wellness expert that was mentioned 1,800 times in the Epstein files. This is a person who is in our space. And it really shone a light on the bro culture that exists in the wellness world.

• 2:43Mindy Pelz?

  And I've been watching all the comments. I've been watching people taking this information. For those of you who don't know who I'm talking about, I'm talking about Dr. Peter Attia. It is no surprise. Dr. Deepak Chopra was also mentioned in the Epstein files. And as I was watching the comments over the last couple of days, I responded to a post, and a woman came in and said, "How do we find wellness experts with integrity?" And I thought, "That's gotta be a really confusing question when 95% of health advice is now found on social media.

• 3:27Mindy Pelz?

  How do you know if the person you're receiving health advice from has integrity? And you should be listening to them, and you should be taking their advice. Let me know if this is an issue for you." And so I called my dear friend, Dr. Sarah Sazal, and I asked her to unpack this with me. So in this conversation, you're going to hear a little bit of a behind the scenes. Think of it like we've pulled the veil back so that you can see what it's like to put wellness and health information out on social media right now. Sarah and I both talk about many people that you know, podcasters you know, YouTubers

• 4:07Mindy Pelz?

  that you know, our experiences with them, and how you can spot some of this bro culture and its disingenuous ways. So that's the first part of this conversation. Then we went into the patriarch, which I just want to point out, the patriarch isn't men over. The patriarch is a system that has powerful influence on us. And right now, the social media system has a powerful influence over how you receive health information. So we talked about how do you navigate that system?

• 4:48Mindy Pelz?

  How do you know where to find information that works for you? So that's the second part of the conversation. Now, I want to tell you, don't click off, because the third part of the conversation, Dr. Sarah brought something up that I love. She said, "I'm looking to have conversations with regulated humans." And we went into what is it like to feel dysregulated? How can you spot if somebody is regulated? And what can we do to come together and understand how to collectively regulate ourself? It's a really interesting conversation. And we end on play and pleasure for women.

• 5:33Mindy Pelz?

  You're not going to want to miss that part. So it's a really dense conversation. It's really timely. If you're confused as to how to navigate the terrain of the wellness world on social media, I hope you find some light and some inspiration in this conversation. So, Dr. Sarah says all, let's all dive in to getting the best information off of social media for you. This is an emergency podcast that was called this morning. And I really appreciate you responding to me, Sarah. And I just am so excited to have this conversation with you.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Me too. I mean, I love the conversations that are recorded and unrecorded. And I'm always happy to heed the call and be with you.

• 6:20Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. So before we dive into the task at hand, which is how do we navigate wellness information? What do we need to know about the bro wellness culture? I think a big thing I want to talk about is how do we understand that when online spaces are safe for us and when are they not? And I really, I actually, and you haven't even really heard me say this. I just want to call out that so many women, as you know, have been sexually abused. And through my work over the last couple of years, especially with psychedelics,

• 7:02Mindy Pelz?

  I have come to an understanding that I didn't have, which was I was molested by my pediatrician and that I was raped by a white, privileged frat boy in college. And both of those, I thought, were my fault. And I understand now that a lot of women, the number of conversations I've had with women about sexual abuse, about being objectified, it seems to be permeating the culture. And so as we move forward in this conversation, I just want to acknowledge that everybody is safe here and you are not alone.

• 7:46Mindy Pelz?

  And it's important that we bring this very difficult conversation forward, but know that both Sarah and I see and hear you.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  I so appreciate you starting there, Mindy, because you're right. I mean, we know that 70% of women by age 18 have experienced significant trauma and the rates of sexual abuse are much higher in women and girls than they are in men. And it's, it's an important place to begin rather than all the allegations, all the emails, all of the rabbit holes that you can go on in the Epstein files because we want, like, we, we want to regulate. We are so good at regulating each other.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  You're so great at regulating your audience and co-regulating. And

• 8:48Speaker 01

  for me, that's a big part of the safety in this conversation is that we're not looking for clickbait. We're not looking to, you know, grab headlines here. We're trying to really get to the root of it and understand what does this mean about our culture? Where do we go from here?

• 9:04Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. I think safety is a really interesting word that I want to bring through this whole conversation. And I actually met with my team this morning and said, I'd like to do a whole series next week on social media about what does it look like to stay safe on social media when you're consuming information? And because it's a new place that women have to think about safety. You know, we used to be like, what is it like to stay safe at a party? Or, you know, I think, I think we've all been in parking garages that felt unsafe and we have learned how to navigate that situation. But I think we have a new issue, which is how do you stay safe? How does a woman stay safe on social media?

• 9:49Mindy Pelz?

  And I think that's a really important conversation to be had. So, um, so anyway, so I'm looking forward to that piece.

• 9:57Mindy Pelz?

  I want to start with Sunday because just for people listening, this is being recorded on Wednesday and Sunday I was heading out to surf and my husband said to me,

• 10:09Mindy Pelz?

  Peter Attia is in the Epstein files.

• 10:13Mindy Pelz?

  And I'm gonna tell you my first reaction. I'm very curious your first reaction because it may be completely different. My first reaction was, really? Like, I thought he was one of the good guys. Now, I want to tell you, I haven't interacted with him. I've never been on his podcast. So this is me looking out from the outside in. And I want to tell you that the reason I thought he was one of the good guys is because he was good looking, he was strong, he talked about his wife a lot. I actually, you know, interacted with a celebrity who I won't say her name, but who told me she was a patient of his. And I just, I don't know, his vibe gave me some kind of understanding that he was one

• 10:57Mindy Pelz?

  of the good guys. And when I came home from surfing, I decided before I judged him, I would dive into it. And I'm, the two comments that just hung me was the low carb comment. And I was like, that's locker room talk. Like, what would he do if somebody was talking about his daughters like that? And then the, your life is so outrageous. And I can't tell anybody. Who did he want to tell? Who did he want to tell? That this guy's a pedophile? So it started to really hit me in a raw place. And I was lost, and I was frustrated,

• 11:38Mindy Pelz?

  and I was angry. And then I saw your post. And I, and I'm gonna hand it over to you there because I was looking, I was so upset. And I was looking for direction and your, maybe you could talk a little bit about your reaction and your post, because it was the leadership I was looking for at that moment.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Thank you for sharing that, Mindy. And I came to it on Sunday a little differently than you. I don't know Peter Attie at all. I have no personal relationship. I've never met him.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  There were, for me, some signs that I could track. When you look, for instance, at

• 12:25Speaker 01

  pretty much any of his podcasts, I don't want to generalize too much, but I feel like there's a way that

• 12:33Speaker 01

  he becomes so pedantic and goes, I, I really appreciate the rigor, but for me, listening to him, I can only tolerate it in doses. Like, I can tolerate his podcast for about 30 minutes, and then I need a break because it just feels kind of intellectually exhausting

• 12:58Speaker 01

  to follow along his threads.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  So there's that piece. Another piece is that he's got a few sound bites on 60 Minutes on his podcast with Rachel Rubin, where he talks about the Women's Health Initiative being one of the worst things that has ever been,

• 13:25Speaker 01

  has ever happened to women. And while I agree with that statement, what I noticed, and this is a bit, it's a bit of subtext and also kind of reading between the lines.

• 13:37Mindy Pelz?

  I think this is helpful, though. This is how people, this is what I want people to understand. This is how you spot somebody. So keep going.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:43Mindy Pelz?

  Right. Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Well, if you, if you listen to the Rachel Rubin podcast, as I was listening to it, I felt like he was talking over her.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  She was the expert. He's a guy who didn't finish his general surgery residency.

• 14:03Mindy Pelz?

  Right.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  And he was mansplaining the Women's Health Initiative, hormone therapy, menopause, and basically asking her to agree with him.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  That didn't, it, there's, it just didn't feel right to me. Now, I know hindsight is 2020 and

• 14:26Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, there were a few things that were confusing to me about his behavior.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  I also have mutual clients and patients who went to him for care. And I, I didn't agree with the way that he was doing hormone therapy. So there's a lot of arrogance and certainty about the way that he takes care of patients. And I didn't find that, at least the patients I was taking care of, and this is only anecdotal, a few patients, I didn't find that it matched.

• 15:04Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  So when I came into learning about this online on Sunday, I was at the airport.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  And I posted a thread, it's kind of funny how this came up. I posted a thread about GLP-1s and cognitive decline. And someone commented, you can still see it on threads.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Hey, Dr. Sarah, are you going to prattle on about your usual stuff? Are you going to talk about Peter Attia today?

• 15:36Mindy Pelz?

  This is important. That is really important.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got called out.

• 15:42Mindy Pelz?

  Yep. And I've been saying this to my staff all week. I'm like, we can't talk about fasting. We can't talk about blood sugar. I, you should, I'll send you a YouTube live I did yesterday because I bragged all about you in it. And I was like, I'm supposed to come and talk and answer your blood sugar questions here on YouTube? I can't. I need to tell you what's on my heart and the whole thing is about exactly this.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  I so appreciated this comment.

• 16:11Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  I do my best to read every comment and I'm glad I do that because she was absolutely right. And what I was doing was what we're trained to do in medicine and we're trained to do in the patriarchy is to just kind of stay in your lane.

• 16:29Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  And don't talk bad, don't rock the boat, don't criticize other colleagues. You know, let someone else do that, like the medical board. It's not up to you.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, there I was prattling on about GLP-1's and cognitive decline. And I thought, you know, let me go to the Epstein files.

• 16:55Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  I felt like I had the capacity for it. Yeah, so.

• 17:00Mindy Pelz?

  What'd you find? Yeah, I could only go so far and then, and then I, I, I just was nauseous.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  So I had to dose it. I mean, I felt, I felt like the emails and the comments were really overwhelming. They showed what felt to me to be the truth

• 17:22Speaker 01

  of someone who doesn't know that others are watching.

• 17:27Mindy Pelz?

  Hmm.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  And that made me commit to reading pretty much every, every one of the 1800 references to Peter Attia. So, you know, it's not how I wanted to spend my Sunday. But.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  And I also felt like I need to go to the primary source.

• 17:53Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna, at that time, there were a bunch of articles that were, you know, not good media outlets with articles about Peter Attia, and I, I didn't trust them. So before saying anything or even getting a sense of what my response is, I wanted to go read the primary source myself.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  So that was my Sunday. And, you know, more recently, I've been talking a lot about vaginal estrogen, vaginal DHEA, vaginal testosterone, and it especially felt to be tone deaf.

• 18:30Mindy Pelz?

  Yes.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  To be talking about that with this comment about, you know, female genitalia being low carb. So that's where I was on Sunday.

• 18:41Mindy Pelz?

  You know, as I've sat with the Epstein information of the last couple of days.

• 18:49Mindy Pelz?

  I think where I'm the most sad is how strong the patriarchal system is. It is, it is interwoven into every fabric of our culture. And I, and this ties into what you just said. If you look at the extent of harm that Jeffrey Epstein did to children,

• 19:16Mindy Pelz?

  and how he cover everybody involved, everybody who is benefiting from this horrific act, had a path to covering it up. And everybody was in agreement that we need to cover it up. And where I've come to is suppression, that the patriarch only lives if somebody is in power and somebody is suppressed. And our, and it's not just America. I mean, the other countries right now are standing up and saying, hey, if anybody in leadership is in those files, they're going to be dismissed from their leadership position.

• 19:56Mindy Pelz?

  But we here in America are so gripping to that patriarchal system. We're willing to do anything to climb into the power structure.

• 20:11Mindy Pelz?

  And I'm curious if we are ever going to be able to break free of that. I think that's what I'm the most sad about is that the patriarchal way, power, money, you know, looks, sex, all of it is so strong that we're willing to harm children for it and cover it up.

• 20:35Mindy Pelz?

  And so when I see the act of these women going on that podcast, or I see these masculine women that are out there, you know, and I, and there's nothing, I'm not criticizing masculine women, but these women that are buying into the patriarchal energy, I see a systemic breakdown.

• 20:57Mindy Pelz?

  And I honestly think the biggest thing I'm walking away from the Epstein files so far is how willing we are in this culture to allow people to be in positions of power and we don't, we don't want to know they're bad. We don't want to know what they've done. And now we're sitting at a place where children have been fucking harmed.

• 21:22Mindy Pelz?

  Because we were gripping on to patriarchal power so much. So I agree with you and I'm also a little upset because

• 21:33Mindy Pelz?

  everybody saw the hit piece and then these women went on. Why can't we as women create our own power? Where do we go to create our own power? Because we would do power together and we would do power within. And what's happening is we don't have an example of women in power, in a new, in a new system, working together and coming together for the betterment of society.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Well, that's what you and I have to build.

• 22:03Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  We are being called in this moment.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  And that's what we're doing in this podcast together.

• 22:10Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  It's such a, you know, I thank you for reaching out to me this morning and asking me to come talk with you. And we have to model it for millennials. And the Gen Z's and the Gen Alphas.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  You know, I would say

• 22:33Speaker 01

  there's another way into this, you know, I think sometimes when we talk about patriarchy, some people like start to zone out.

• 22:40Mindy Pelz?

  Agreed.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  So I just want to acknowledge that. Another way to think about it is look at how

• 22:50Speaker 01

  I'm a Gen Xer. I think you're a Gen Xer too. Yeah, I am. Yeah.

• 22:53Mindy Pelz?

  Proud Gen Xer.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Proud Gen Xers, but we're the ones who were like feral children. Yes, we were. Who like put up with the doctors telling us to go on a birth control pill or to take a sleeping pill or here's some Xanax when we were suffering and we put up with that. Yep. And it's the millennials that are saying, oh no, this idea that 75% of women are untreated for menopause. I'm not, I'm not standing for that. Yep. So we have to model a different way. I think that's really critical. Yeah. And Gen Xers are part of the patriarchy.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  And I think a big part of dismantling the patriarchy and realizing that we're the frogs in the pot of water that's being boiled slowly. We need men to help us. Yes. We need these regulated men. Regulated men. Yep. Men are in a mental health crisis right now with good reason. Like they're suffering in patriarchy too. Yeah, agreed. Agreed. And so we need, it can't be just women that topple patriarchy. Like we've got to do it together. Yeah. And we've got to develop these models of shared power. Yeah. Like you do, Mindy.

• 24:13Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, I, yeah. And I'm trying to think of like big examples of where you've seen women do that. I mean, here's what I think of. This is so funny. I don't know why this came to my head is like Lilith Fair.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:28Mindy Pelz?

  Right? What was that? Sheryl Crow started that and brought all, I think she started or one of them did.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Totally. Sarah McLachlan.

• 24:35Mindy Pelz?

  Sarah McLachlan.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  The, um, Luscious Jackson.

• 24:41Mindy Pelz?

  Right.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  We're like going down Gen X memory lane here.

• 24:45Mindy Pelz?

  Right. You start talking about Gen X. You know, it's funny. If, I don't know if you've ever done this, but we watch Fast Times at Ridgemont High with our children. And they were like, why are they talking like that?

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Sean Penn. Oh, God, that was the, that was the seventies, eighties. You were allowed to talk like that. Like, it was so bad. I mean, both our, our daughter and son were like, this is horrible, the way they talk. We're like, yeah, welcome to our childhood.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  There were no parents around.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  No, we were feral. It's really true.

• 25:21Mindy Pelz?

  And, and I just want to point out, because I'm such a fan of you, Sarah, and I, um, you were the first fucking woman that Andrew Huberman brought on his podcast. And I literally screamed when I saw that you were on that podcast. I was like, finally. And, and, and, and I just want to point out for people in my audience who may not know you. I also think you deserve the goddamn credit for being one of the OGs in the menopause, doctor, author, you know, hormone space. Like, you've been writing books forever before any of us came around. Like, you were, you were iconic in my mind. And

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 26:01Mindy Pelz?

  They needed to bring you on, but they're, they didn't, they finally brought you on. Pete, Peter never brought you on, huh? He never, he never gave you an invite.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  No. What, that was probably the universe looking out for me.

• 26:13Mindy Pelz?

  Probably.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  It's, uh, yeah, I appreciate that point. And, you know, one of the comments I got over the past few days was a guy who was saying, oh, are you? I said something about Peter Hattia talking about women's health and how it felt like a yellow flag. And he said, oh, so you should never talk about men's health then? And, you know, it's, it's, it's a good point to discuss.

• 26:43Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  But I would also say, the research shows that if you're a man and you're having a heart attack and you go to the emergency room and you see a female physician or a male physician, your survival's the same. But if you're a woman and you go to the emergency room with a heart attack and you see a female physician versus a male physician, your survival is two to three times higher seeing a female physician. There are differences in how men and women take care of patients.

• 27:18Mindy Pelz?

  Wow.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  So I take your point, and I don't want to talk about erections today.

• 27:24Mindy Pelz?

  I don't either.

• 27:27Mindy Pelz?

  Well, I'll bring you back to talk about clitoral erections.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  That sounds great.

• 27:32Mindy Pelz?

  So we can go there.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  I'll bring my puppet.

• 27:34Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, excellent, excellent.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:36Mindy Pelz?

  So, so let's talk a little bit about what I call, or what is now being called, I shouldn't, I didn't name it, um, bro wellness. And, um, I think every culture has a bro culture in it. Um, but what I, I don't think people see is the, how those of us like you and me, who have big platforms, who have been speaking out, who have been trying to educate, get, get, get shut out of this bro wellness world. And so I want to just kind of talk a little bit about that and I'll share it, I'll share it through, through my lens. Um, and I've only short, shared this on a couple of podcasts.

• 28:18Mindy Pelz?

  Um, when I went on, uh, Stephen Bartlett for the first time, believe it or not, I had no idea it was such a big podcast. I, I was like, I was like, I think it's number one in the world. It was number one in the world at the time, and it may still be that. And I didn't know who he was and he came a calling and my team was like, you have to go. And I'm like, really? I don't want to get on a plane to go to New York. And they're like, you're going. And so I went and, um, when I sat in the chair across from him, I li- I listened to one episode on the flight to New York. So I had some idea what was going on. And all of a sudden I sat across from him and I thought, oh, fuck, this is a really big deal. And I don't, I know you've been on, in Stephen's chair, you've been in, in Huberman's chair.

• 29:02Mindy Pelz?

  And, um, I, he kept me there for three and a half hours. When I got done, I wanted to say, I, and I love Stephen. I think Stephen is a, is a, is a wonderful, like from what I can tell, he's a very warm, wonderful human. And I said to him, I, I thought in my mind, you don't ever keep a menopausal woman

• 29:24Mindy Pelz?

  interviewing her for three hours. Like I could barely tell you what my name was after that.

• 29:33Mindy Pelz?

  I like wanted to strangle him for that.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  I mean, he's in his 30s.

• 29:40Mindy Pelz?

  Right.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  We love Stephen, but yes.

• 29:42Mindy Pelz?

  We do love Stephen.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  I mean, give us a snack at least. Let us, let us do some burpees, you know, like if you want the brain flow to still be going to the cerebellum and the, the, uh, rest of the brain, like three hours in that chair.

• 30:00Mindy Pelz?

  Hmm. Way too long. So I don't know, around two and a half hours. Um, he starts asking me about fasting for men. And, um, I, I don't claim to know as much about the male body as I do about the female body. So I made a comment and I said fasting, um, increases testosterone in men, a 24 hour fast by 1300%. Now I want to point out, it was a misquote. The quote, what I, the research showed that growth hormone.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Growth hormone increases that much. Yeah.

• 30:37Mindy Pelz?

  Increases and, and you, you, you tell me, but growth hormone is a precursor to many other hormones. Now, so I wasn't like completely egregious and you can call me out if I was, but it was a slip of hormone at hour two.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:54Mindy Pelz?

  Two hour thirty.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 30:57Mindy Pelz?

  When the, when the podcast came out, um, about a weekend, I was bullied like I've never been bullied before in my life. And I'm going to call my bully out right now. We're going to call a couple of bullies out. Um, because it was the most painful thing I've experienced as an adult. Um, it's Lane Norton and he said, this woman's a fraud and a liar. And for the next two weeks, the bro culture poured into my DMs on every single platform. And said the most horrific things to me.

• 31:37Mindy Pelz?

  My children came to me and said, Mom, you're on Tik Tok. You're all over Tik Tok. They're making, they're making fun of you.

• 31:48Mindy Pelz?

  The bro culture came after me in one of the biggest ways.

• 31:53Mindy Pelz?

  And I wanted to go and say, hey, y'all, two and a half hours in. I, I meant growth hormone. I'll show you the link, but everybody in my universe said, "Shut your mouth." Because if you keep speaking up, you're only gonna fuel this. Huberman was tagged in it.

• 32:14Mindy Pelz?

  Thomas Daylauer was tagged in it. In these posts, and they all laughed and made fun of me.

• 32:22Mindy Pelz?

  And I was crushed. It was the beginning of me feeling like, do I really want to play this game? I don't, I don't know if I want to play this game. Lane Norton came after me for over a year.

• 32:36Mindy Pelz?

  He, he, he texted over and over and over again, things to me and DMs. And about a year later, one day, he put up a post that was a picture of a beautiful set of boats in, in Florida that he was looking out at. And he said, "Good morning, everybody. I hope everybody has a nice day." This is a year after the, the incident. "I hope everybody has an amazing day, except chiropractor at Dr. Mindy Pelz, who thinks fasting increases male hormone by 1300%." That was the day I blocked him.

• 33:17Mindy Pelz?

  I, I've never witnessed that level of bullying. And it was the first time I saw how deep this bro wellness culture goes.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:32Mindy Pelz?

  And I, I, I didn't, I don't know, I'm not saying this from a wound, because I've spent a lot of time, you know, trying to understand why it hit me so hard. I'm more saying it from, and I'm curious your opinion on this, like,

• 33:47Mindy Pelz?

  I'm just here trying to get a message out. And I'm sorry at hour, at hour two, 230, that I misquoted, quoted, "Your hormone, your fucking hormone that you're so attached to. And now you're gonna make my life hell for a year?" And you're gonna pull all the other bros into this? Sarah, I met, I'm, I still go to conferences where women are like, ooh, I saw that. How you doing?

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Oh, there's so much to unpack here. And

• 34:29Speaker 01

  I've had, you know, I've tracked Lane Norton for a lot of years and I've actually learned some things from him that I found to be helpful. Like I bought some of his content, maybe back in 2018. You know, my hope with how we tend to people and how we grow our tribe and how we support

• 35:00Speaker 01

  the difficult experiences of others is that we're

• 35:06Speaker 01

  able to give people grace. We're, um, we own our mistakes and move on. And not let

• 35:18Speaker 01

  people who are somehow suffering in some major way and therefore need to take down others as a way to prop themselves up and shame others.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  I just, I don't agree with that approach.

• 35:34Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  And, you know, for him to carry that

• 35:41Speaker 01

  poison in a system for so long.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  You know, I saw, I saw someone post today about how when you've got haters like this and bullies, you just have to say a prayer and move on.

• 35:58Mindy Pelz?

  Hmm, it's beautiful. Yeah.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  So I, you know, I don't,

• 36:04Speaker 01

  I don't know that that really helps because.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  You're someone of character. Um, you're someone who understands science. And I just don't agree with these takedowns that occur.

• 36:21Mindy Pelz?

  You know, what's interesting is my first reaction was, well, let me pull them onto my podcast and let's talk about it.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's have a conversation about it.

• 36:30Mindy Pelz?

  Let's have a conversation.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  That's the mature way to be able to resolve something like that.

• 36:35Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Not to post a bunch of videos and to be nasty.

• 36:39Mindy Pelz?

  Yep. Well, it was later revealed to me that, and this goes back to the bro culture, that when you're a rising star, they want your audience. And I think this is something I really want to bring forward. Like, and you and I should chat about this so that everybody just, I think my goal today is to sort of pull back the veil of what it's like to put health information out there as women.

• 37:05Mindy Pelz?

  But, you know, when we go on Jay Shetty and when you go on Mel, we go on Mel Robbins, we've both been on those podcasts. It's, you know, there's an understanding that we're melding audiences.

• 37:20Mindy Pelz?

  And, and I, I say this all the time, I'm not sitting in this position that I have with this audience. By, I didn't get here by myself. Stephen Bartlett gave me a break. It was actually a lot of men. Lewis Howes gave me a break. Jay Shetty gave me a break. Like, like people brought me on to a bigger platform and then I got more exposure. And so then people could decide if they like or not like. So I don't feel like I sit here like, these are my people and this is my information. It's like, I had some really interesting conversations with a lot of people where we were melding audiences.

• 38:00Mindy Pelz?

  And that's really what you're doing when you have an audience and you're being brought on to a podcast is they're wanting your audience. And I just want to say this because I don't know if women realize this, the most profitable audience is women between 45 and 65 because we have problems and we have money and everybody wants your attention. So when they bring Sarah and I on, they're wanting to have conversations, but mostly they're wanting your eyeballs. Or largely, I should say.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  It's such a good point.

• 38:44Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, I don't think that gives, I mean, I walk around like, I can't say I have a 1.5 million subscribers on YouTube. I didn't do that all on my own. I had a lot of people help me. I had a lot of assistance. And I do want to say a lot of those people were men. Good men. So I think, I think there's, we have to understand the wellness world has become a bit of a popularity game. And if you have, whoever has the most women wins.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:19Mindy Pelz?

  We want to hear your voice so that we can sell to them.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Well, it's, it's a good point because I feel like in the best of all worlds, we are melting these audiences and there's a lot of synergy.

• 39:36Mindy Pelz?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Right? So people are learning about you that didn't know about you before. You're having guests on your podcast, you're paying it forward and introducing those people who maybe have a smaller platform than you to their content.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  So the melting, I think, can be used for good.

• 39:58Mindy Pelz?

  Agreed.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Or it can be used not for good. Which feels like more the, what you're describing with the bro culture. I have a lot more to say about the bro culture, but I think the, you know, this idea of bullying

• 40:16Speaker 01

  or the takedown of someone. I mean, I think there's a time and a place for holding someone accountable.

• 40:24Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  And it sounds to me like you were totally willing to say, I made a mistake. I said testosterone, I meant growth hormone. It was, you know, hour 2.5 in those three hour podcast, you owned it.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  The, a takedown is not necessary.

• 40:44Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  And that way of melting audiences of like going after your audience with these sensational

• 40:54Speaker 01

  thumbnails and viral hooks.

• 40:57Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Um, that's not being used for good.

• 41:01Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 41:03Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about what else you see with the bro culture before we move on, because I'm also troubled by why all the podcasts that are in the biggest places are men. And I'm also curious if you have any sense of why it took Huberman so long to bring you on and, and why he may even called you there. I do want to say in that interview, I was getting an IV when I was listening to it. I think I've told you this. And, and when you, when you said, well, 80, it was like 80% of women have constipation. And he was like, really? Why? And you were like, because of the patriarch. I literally stood up and I was like, yes, she said it.

• 41:52Mindy Pelz?

  Walk us through that.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Well, I got a lot of flack for that. Did she just say that constipation is caused by the patriarchy? No, I'm saying, living in the patriarchy does not help your transit time.

• 42:05Mindy Pelz?

  Yes.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Especially if you, for women, you know, are, are guts much longer, our intestines are like another 10 feet. Let's fact check that, um, all the bros out there. It's more torturous. And so having a lot of tension, a lot of stress, a lot of cortisol coursing through your veins can affect, affect your transit time. But going back to bro culture, I mean, Mel Robbins is an exception. She's got a huge podcast. She's right up there with Stephen Bartlett. And, um, when I was on her podcast, she probably said this to you too. She was like,

• 42:46Speaker 01

  stay in charge of your podcast. Make sure that, you know, it's a hundred percent owned by you. Don't sell out. Don't partner with another platform. Like, keep the control for yourself. It's really important in our culture.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm in the longevity space and what I see with bro longevity is this fixation on living longer and living better

• 43:21Speaker 01

  for oneself.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Right? Like, how, how high can I get my VO2 max? How much can I increase my grip strength and maintain it as I get older?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Here's, here's the events that I want to compete in for the Centennial Olympics, the Centennial Decathlon. And there's much less of a focus on connection, which is such a critical part of longevity.

• 43:54Mindy Pelz?

  So critical.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I have a lot to say about bro culture. What I see.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  And I'm not going to name names here, but you can just imagine as I mention this idea, there's this issue that a Stanford professor calls masculine overcompensation.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  And it's, there's certain behaviors that you see, I mean, he's a social scientist who's looked at this in groups of men. And there's a lot of dominance, power over, talking over, mansplaining, dating younger women, objectifying women.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  And some of which you described in this scenario with the growth hormone. I'm hearing dominance.

• 44:56Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  I'm hearing power over.

• 44:58Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  You invited him to be on your podcast, have power with him. He declined.

• 45:04Mindy Pelz?

  Yep. Yep.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  So I don't know him personally either, but I would say that among these male podcasters, and there's a lot of exceptions, like Stephen Bartlett, Jay Shetty, for sure.

• 45:20Mindy Pelz?

  Stephen and Jay, you know, you and I have both been on those, and I would say they're very heartfelt men.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Very much so. They do not have masculine overcompensation.

• 45:31Mindy Pelz?

  No, no, they don't have masculine overcompensation at all. You know, I want to tell you just so, you know, Stephen, when I went on the second time, I got, when I got done, I just hugged him and I said, hey, I just need you to know you changed my life. Like, our first conversation really changed the trajectory of my, my career. And you know what he said back to me? Here's power with. I think this is something we really want to emphasize here is power over and power with or power together. It's, he said, oh, no, no, no, you changed my life. He's like, do you know how many people stopped me on the street about our episode and thanked me for that?

• 46:16Mindy Pelz?

  Now that's, that's a man standing in his own confidence.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  That's right. That's a regulated man.

• 46:24Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, there you go.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  So let's, let's call this out because what I hear

• 46:30Speaker 01

  in all of my interactions with Jay Shetty and Stephen Bartlett is regulation.

• 46:35Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, it's well said.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Nervous system regulation, endocrine regulation, probably immune system regulation. I don't know about that. And what I hear in these men or women who like to take down others is dysregulation.

• 46:52Mindy Pelz?

  It's beautiful. And I, and I also, I really like this and we should continue that language throughout this conversation. Um, I also want to state that I have said this over and over again, patriarch does not mean men. It means power over. And to me, I spent a lot of time when I wrote Age Like a Girl, really thinking about matriarch. Like maybe women should lead. Um, but there's actually some really interesting history on women leading in matriarchal societies that are very violent. Uh, you know, right? So women leading isn't the answer either, but the term I finally came to that sit sat for me with both of them is patriarch is power over

• 47:36Mindy Pelz?

  and matriarch is power with, like within or power together. And I think

• 47:43Speaker 01

  That's beautiful.

• 47:44Mindy Pelz?

  The lens we look at these people, like you're hearing, like, like Jay Shetty and Stephen, they just have a softness about them. They tell story, like there's something about them that you don't feel like they're mansplaining or they're trying to dominate their guests. I think that's a key thing you all, when you're, when you're like, where do I go to the podcasters? Like, uh, how are they treating the guest? Are they, I love what you're saying. Like, are they talking over them? Um, or are they in a conversation that's together? And I think, I think that's really important to point out.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  It is, and to track.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Do you feel regulated?

• 48:23Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  As you listen to this person? So part of what would happen when I would listen to some of these bros that have big podcasts is I would feel dysregulated and my window of tolerance.

• 48:38Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would feel like, maybe I'm not doing this right. Maybe, maybe I'll die earlier if I don't get my VO2 max higher. Like, there's this kind of fear that gets created and dysregulation and then I could only dose it for like 30 minutes. So, and if you're listening to someone do a takedown,

• 49:03Speaker 01

  a video about growth hormone or whatever it is, and it's making you feel dysregulated and the speaker is dysregulated, that's a good sign. That it's not necessarily a safe place.

• 49:17Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. Do you think as a doctor, do you, do you think we should be taking health information as women from male doctors?

• 49:27Speaker 01

  I think it depends on what you're referencing. I mean, some of my, you know, I'm, I'm in a relationship with an internist who is so wise. And he ran a, a menopause hormone therapy company years ago. And he, you know, we were interns together at UCSF. And you could see it then, you could see how regulated he was. So I wouldn't say that men shouldn't give women's health advice. But I think you have to, you have to check, like,

• 50:06Speaker 01

  are they speaking the truth? Are they, what's their motivation? Are they regulated? Are they making you feel empowered?

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Or are they making you feel bad about yourself, bad about your choices?

• 50:23Mindy Pelz?

  I think that's a great litmus test. I think that, what do you think of the term, this gets thrown around by the bro culture and I'm now seeing it actually with some of the women podcasters, which I want to move to that part of the conversation. What do you think of the term evidence-based?

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, this term has been used for so long. I remember it going back to when I was in medical school and residency, so 35 years ago.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  And at that time, I don't know that this has changed, but at that time, about 15% of the drugs that we were prescribing were supported by randomized trials. So 85% of the drugs that we were prescribing were not supported by randomized trials. And so evidence-based became this concept of using the highest quality of evidence to support the statements that you make. So I believe in that because, you know, when we,

• 51:29Speaker 01

  I grew up at a time when we were prescribing Premarin for every woman after age 40. It was the number one prescription in the US.

• 51:39Mindy Pelz?

  Wow.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  And it was this vast, uncontrolled medical experiment that was done on women. So Premarin, pregnant mare, horse's urine, together with midroxiprogesterone acetate. We were taught 30 years ago to shove it down a woman's throat to convince her to take it.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  And so all of this was done in the context of keeping women younger, keeping them looking better, forever young, and

• 52:14Speaker 01

  It wasn't until the Women's Health Initiative that we finally did a randomized trial. So that was about 60 years of prescribing before we had evidence showing that Permarin and Provera were dangerous and provocative.

• 52:29Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  So I'm not defending WHI, but for me, that's where evidence-based became kind of a lightning rod. And now I feel like it's, it's kind of used against us in some ways. What's your take on it?

• 52:45Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, it's like weaponized. I'm watching a lot of female podcasters are now saying, we need more evidence-based, evidence-based. And I think it's like, it's like the word optimal health. I hate the word optimal health. Cause I'm like, what's optimal? Do we even know what optimal is? Like, you know, like it's, it's, it's something about it just doesn't give me enough direction on what to do. So I feel like evidence-based, I think, gets translated into science, that there's science showing this information that I'm telling you. Now, I know you've spent a lot of times on PubMed, looking at peer-reviewed

• 53:26Mindy Pelz?

  studies. I too have spent a tremendous amount of time there. And I did a little, little thing for a couple of months where every article that I was going to quote in a YouTube video, I actually Googled all the authors of that study.

• 53:44Mindy Pelz?

  Oh, wow.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  That's a big time sink.

• 53:47Mindy Pelz?

  It's a big, it's a big time sink. But I gotta tell you, it brought to light that so many of these science studies are tainted with big pharma.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 53:59Mindy Pelz?

  Manipulation. And it made me realize that when I bring a science study forward, the way I look at it, and I used to tell my patients this all the time, is that it will get you in the ballpark, but now you have to decide where you're going to sit.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's well stated. And we see this, you know, we talk about clean studies.

• 54:22Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Published in peer-reviewed journals with no association with pharmaceutical influence or big food influence, nutritional influence.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Versus the dirty studies. And then it's important to look at the outcomes for both because usually the outcomes are better for the product in the dirty studies. So I love that you did this.

• 54:48Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  Really good inventory.

• 54:49Mindy Pelz?

  It's, it's, I mean, and that's what I always tell my following. I'm like, I, in every YouTube video, I'm like, I've left you the link. If you need to know more, go into that link and start to investigate yourself. But it made me hold science. I'm going to be really honest and I love, I love reading science. I love quoting science, but it helped me not make it the end all be all. And I think when we look at the bro culture of wellness, those guys, I mean, look, think about how Huberman's podcast got started. It was like, I'm going to repeat all these studies. Like he was just reading off of PubMed on each single topic. And, and everybody was like, oh, he's so smart. He just went to PubMed and figured out these, the, read the studies and interpret them,

• 55:33Mindy Pelz?

  which are hard to interpret. But I think we, we, we have gotten too far in the wellness industry, holding on to, well, what does the science say? What is the evidence? And sometimes you have to take that information and be your own N of one and decide if it works for you. We're back at women shaming themselves. A big one is cold plunging. I don't know if you're getting this on your site, but I'm like, why are we debating cold plunging? Get in it, see if it works for you and then get out. But like, there have been so many studies and people debating, should women do it? Should they not do it? What part of the cycle should you do?

• 56:16Mindy Pelz?

  I'm like, just try it and see if it works for you. So I feel like we are wrapping evidence based. We're using it as a phrase to say, you should trust me.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it can be used as a crutch. And you know, what I was taught, I think this still holds true. What I was taught at Harvard Medical School is that if you look at the hierarchy of evidence, the lowest level is expert opinion, then case studies, then observational studies, like the Nurse Sells study, then randomized trials. But even more important is the N of One experiment, because N of One allows you to personalize. Whereas even randomized trials that a lot of people think are the, the holy grail of evidence, they're looking at populations,

• 57:11Speaker 01

  you know, where there's so many differences in terms of the genome, the epigenome, lifestyle factors, it's very hard to control for all those things.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  But they end up looking for an effect in the average. It's medicine of the average.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  And I don't want to be average.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  No, I don't want to be average either.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  I mean, the average American has metabolic dysfunction, prediabetes or diabetes, and is 35 pounds overweight.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  I don't want to be average. I want to do N of One experiments. So I agree with you about personalization.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:49Mindy Pelz?

  And so I've learned, and just for people listening, that I, when somebody says I'm evidence-based, I'm science-backed, I'm like, okay, so you're going to bring me research evidence backing up what you're saying? And that's intriguing. But I think we, the bro culture, and now I'm seeing women podcasters are doing it the same way, that it's not like a seal of approval. It's, it, it, it's just is a way of you understanding that they have done some research and that they're going to bring that research to you. That's the way I see it.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  To me, the words are cheap. Like, show me your behavior. Show me how you take a question like, should this woman be on a statin? Should this woman,

• 58:36Speaker 01

  should she address her mitochondria with these three factors?

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Like, show me the behavior. Show me how you parse the data and how you do, you know, what I do every day, Monday through Friday. How do you take the patient in front of you?

• 58:57Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  And counsel her and have this collaborative conversation about the next right step for her, based on the data, which usually are limited.

• 59:09Mindy Pelz?

  Right. And the data set, you know, like then we got like, that's the other thing you got to go and look at like, how many people were in the study? What was the makeup of the study? Like, unpacking a study is quite a process. So, um, so, yeah, I absolutely love that.

• 59:28Mindy Pelz?

  I want to read a quote I saw this morning from Dr. Aviva Rahm, who is a hormone expert. And she basically was responding to what was going on in this situation. And here's, here's what, what really hit me. And I'm curious what it means to you. And then I'll share what it means to me.

• 59:50Mindy Pelz?

  It, it, she started off by talking about the bro culture. And then she said,

• 59:56Mindy Pelz?

  if you have been following any of the women who emulate their models or have agreed to appear on their podcasts, meaning the bro, the bro wellness, because they believe in them or, or want the exposure, what were you looking for?

• 1:00:16Mindy Pelz?

  She's basically calling us out,

• 1:00:21Mindy Pelz?

  saying that as women, we go on these podcasts because we want their power. We want their patriarchal power. I'm going to share a story that I witnessed. And I was like, what is going on here? And you, you've, you've interacted with Andrew Huberman, but he had a big hit piece. And, and, and who knows if it was true or not, but there were five women who basically claimed they were all in a monogamous relationship with him. And they didn't know that there were four others.

• 1:00:56Mindy Pelz?

  And immediately after that hit piece came on, Huberman brought on about 10 female wellness experts. Prior to that, he had brought two female wellness experts on, you and Rhonda Patrick. He was not looking for female conversations. And then he had a hit piece, and all the women lined up to get his patriarchal power.

• 1:01:23Mindy Pelz?

  How do, how do, how do we rectify that?

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Well, it starts with awareness, doesn't it?

• 1:01:28Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Like most things. I mean, I think it might be helpful to say just for a moment that

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  unlike the Epstein files, where I can search justice.gov forward slash Epstein, and I can see the 1800 mentions of Peter Attia, or the 3,000 mentions of Deep October, MD.

• 1:01:52Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, good point.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  I don't have primary source data with Andrew Huberman.

• 1:01:57Mindy Pelz?

  That's a good point. Yep.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  So, there's so many layers to this. I think there's a way that

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  women do seek patriarchal power because they don't have enough power themselves, or they perceive they don't have enough power themselves.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  And there's been, there's, you know, there's a long history of this imbalance of power.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Now, I also think some of that's an inside job, and that you can, um, that power comes from within. And I think you were making this point earlier, that it's power with, it's power within, it's power, um, shared.

• 1:02:43Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  You know, there are also women who are not necessarily catering to

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Bro culture by going on some of these big podcasts. They want to have impact. They have really important things to say. And it's a really good platform for them.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  I think we have to be a little bit careful. Because.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  When I took my first women's studies class. When I was in college, a freshman in college. I went into that class. The first week and everyone was talking about. Intersectionality and.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Patriarchy and I had to learn all these words. And my attitude was. I've never been discriminated against. I feel like I've got plenty of power. And boy, did that semester, you know. Completely opened my eyes and changed my level of awareness and discernment about what I was actually seeing. Operating in our culture.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  So I don't know with these ten women that went on Huberman's podcast. After Rhonda, Patrick and me. Are they aware of, you know, kind of the.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  What's operating in terms of patriarchy? Are they able to witness it? Are they able to see it and use it for? The greater good?

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Or is it like the frogs in the pot of water that's slowly brought to boil? And they're not aware of it.

• 1:04:28Mindy Pelz?

  So, so I, where I want to land this, and I think will be really helpful. I hope we've opened eyes up, but. Another question I've been thinking about. Is beyond just how do you pick the right podcaster? How do you know who to, to get information from? And I think we've done some good jobs on that. Where do, where do women go on social media to feel safe? Can a woman's nervous system stay regulated while watching social media?

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  I'm looking for regulation.

• 1:05:05Mindy Pelz?

  Me too.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  That's the primary thing I'm looking for. So you know, my nervous system is highly sensitive.

• 1:05:12Mindy Pelz?

  Me too.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  There's certain people that I can listen to and I just feel my whole system relax. You know, people like Elena Brower. She's amazing. Spiritual teacher, yoga teacher.

• 1:05:27Mindy Pelz?

  She's not in the upsting files.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  No, she is not.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  You know, I'm looking for people who are not using fear.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  To drive the eyeballs and to drive the traffic. I'm looking for people who genuinely.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Want to create.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  A better world. I mean, that sounds so cliched, but they want to do it kind of one person at a time and they care about that.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  They care about behavior change. Not always selling a product.

• 1:06:04Mindy Pelz?

  Right. That's what I was gonna say. You know what? What I'm also looking for is don't just tell me I need a product. Give me a lifestyle solution in case I can't afford that product.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Totally. Totally. I mean, especially with longevity. You know, longevity is expensive.

• 1:06:25Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 1:06:27Mindy Pelz?

  What do you think of?

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  Peptides?

• 1:06:28Mindy Pelz?

  Oh, my God. Peptides are really expensive.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Combative hormone therapy?

• 1:06:34Mindy Pelz?

  Right. What do you think of longevity was was really in the crossfire? The word longevity, the movement of longevity was in the crossfire this week.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  What do I think about that?

• 1:06:45Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. What'd you think of that? Cause you, cause you, you, you've been, you're right in the longevity space.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, longevity is basically prevention. Prevention has always been. A hard sell. And what's interesting, you know, as someone who's been practicing medicine for 30 years, it's interesting to see how longevity has been trending. It's kind of funny to me because. I mean, you and I have cared about prevention for a very long time. And now it's just kind of packaged as longevity.

• 1:07:17Mindy Pelz?

  Beautiful.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  So what I get interested in is.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  This point you're making, who do you trust? Who's got the kind of health span that you're interested in?

• 1:07:33Mindy Pelz?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  You know, when I hear things about like caloric restriction or um,

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  what are some other lifestyle things that I just don't agree with? That's the main one. You know, there's, there's some ways, there's a way that I want to live my life. And I would love to be around to dance with my great grandchildren at their weddings.

• 1:07:57Mindy Pelz?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Like my great grandmother did.

• 1:07:59Mindy Pelz?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  But I think you also have to look at the cost of that.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  And you have to say, okay, is that a life worth living? Is that how I want to live? Is this the way that I want to live being modeled by this person?

• 1:08:14Mindy Pelz?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  So yeah, longevity was in the crosshairs, but it's really, it's prevention with kind of a, a little lipstick.

• 1:08:26Mindy Pelz?

  That was good. That was good. What, what, what would you, what would you tell a 52 year old woman? Who's just trying to find health information, you know, health? Social media is the number one place people go for health information now. She just wants to be inspired. Her doctor's not giving her answers. She's, she might have gained some weight, her cognition's gone down. And she's like, who do I believe? Where do I go? Where do I start? How, how would you help her navigate the landscape?

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  So the way I think about it is two different phases. I think about the unsexy basics. I almost, my word for this these days is base camp. So what's going on with your sleep? How are you eating? What's happening with your relationships? Do you have the right amount of movement? You're 52, that's when things start to concretize. Right? Like if I don't move every day, my right hip gets really stiff. That's what happens in your 50s. So I would say, where are you with the unsexy basics? And then.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Hormone therapy, I think, is really important. But I don't think it's just estrogen and progesterone. I think you want to look more broadly.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  I'm a fan of testosterone and women who need it, if they've got symptoms. So I like to think of phase two, phase one is the unsexy basics, base camp. Phase two is hormone therapy plus. And then refinements. So I like N F one experiments. I think that's a really good way to do it.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  And I would say if you want one place to start metabolism, metabolic health. It's underlying nine out of 10 of the top killers of women. So focus on metabolism.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Get Mindy's book, Age Like a Girl.

• 1:10:36Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, thank you. In the la- in all the interviews I did for Age Like a Girl, like the question kept coming up, like, where does a woman start? You know, and I'm like, hemoglobin A1C, like, obsess on that number. Just get that number right and and you will see a massive hormonal change.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  And if you can afford it, get a CGM because sometimes you can have a normal A1C and you're super spiky like I was.

• 1:11:04Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, but yeah, start with an A1C.

• 1:11:09Mindy Pelz?

  Is there a phase three?

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Phase three is secure attachment, having the best sex of your life, having pleasure at the center. Having the second half of life be the best thing ever.

• 1:11:23Mindy Pelz?

  So joy.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  Joy and pleasure.

• 1:11:26Mindy Pelz?

  And pleasure. Do you think

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  And play.

• 1:11:29Mindy Pelz?

  Do you, yeah, and play. Well, okay, so do you think this is something I've encountered in talking to so many women around the launching of Age Like a Girl? They don't, we don't know, a lot of women don't know how to play anymore. And a lot of women don't know even how to take in pleasure. Is there, I, I love the way you mapped this out, like, get your base in order. And we talked about metabolic health and that. Then get on the right dose of hormones for whatever fits for you. And then you go to this play pleasure place. But I don't, I don't think women like are taught how to play. And we definitely weren't taught we deserve pleasure.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  It's such a good point. So let's connect this because it connects on so many levels.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  Women who were traumatized and sexually abused often did not have the luxury of play. They never learned the neural pathways because they were so hypervigilant, just trying to survive their childhood or their adolescence. So sometimes you have to rewire, you have to teach yourself how to play, teach yourself pleasure. And I think somatic based practices can be really helpful for that. Hmm. Um, I went to, uh, when I went through my divorce, I went to a, um, they're licensed in California, a sexological body worker.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  And my ex husband. This may need to be another podcast.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. Exactly. I, I should be taking notes. We have, and they're all, it's all based off sex. We have to, we have to talk about the female orgasm. And now we gotta talk about that.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  And how big the clitoris is? I mean, that is nine to 11 centimeters. It's not just that little button.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Oh, so the clitoris, let's just go back to that for a second. You need to, everybody needs to go Google an image of the clitoris. It is not just a knob. It is crazy. But anyways, keep going.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, but my ex husband agreed to let me go to a sexological body worker. It was the best thing ever. He said, you know, as long as she's female, I don't have a problem with it. So I had this great experience going for a couple of years.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  What, what happened there?

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  Uh, lots of different things. I mean, it was a lot about regulation and somatic practices. I went to two different ones and both of them like did breathing exercises, the first three sessions. And I was like, Tik Tok, like, I got the breathing exercises. Can we get down to business?

• 1:14:21Mindy Pelz?

  You're like, great with the breathing, but I came here for the orgasm.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  I regulated.

• 1:14:26Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we did orgasmic meditation. We did like a, um, a kink scale. Uh, we talked about, um, kind of how desire develops. Like, what do your fantasies tell you about your,

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  we definitely have to do a podcast on this because it's a lot of really rich territory.

• 1:14:50Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  And it really opened my eyes. It was super helpful. It's funny. I was listening to a podcast. Huberman was talking about play. Like a week or two ago. And he's so heady and intellectual as he talks about play and like the benefits of play. I had to turn it off. I was like, I'm gonna go home and play, but I don't think this is gonna help me get there.

• 1:15:14Mindy Pelz?

  Right. You don't need the science of play in order to play. Yeah.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:15:19Mindy Pelz?

  But I think it's interesting that you put that as the third phase and, and we are gonna, I'm gonna end this podcast on another one we need to do on pleasure and play. Because I think so many women haven't been trained, um, to, to, for pleasure and play. And I, and I'll tell you a story. I was out surfing today because like I go out every day that I can. And it's just, it's my version of play. And I was sitting on my board next to another woman in her, she was in her 50s. And, um, I said, it was such a beautiful day. And I said, you know what I love about surfing at two o'clock in the afternoon? Is that I feel like I'm cheating. I feel like I've cheated the work day.

• 1:16:03Mindy Pelz?

  And she said, what if working all day is your cheating life?

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Mindy Pelz?

  And I was like, hold, hold that thought. I'm gonna go catch a wave, but then I need to come back. It was like.

• 1:16:20Mindy Pelz?

  I literally was like, go ahead.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  That's a mic drop moment.

• 1:16:26Mindy Pelz?

  Totally.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  I mean, you and I center our lives around our work.

• 1:16:31Mindy Pelz?

  Right.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  And what is so exciting to me, and you and I like won't shut up about this, is that in the second half of life, you get to redesign your, your experiences. You get to figure out, okay, what is my ideal day? My ideal day is that I go surfing for two hours.

• 1:16:49Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna build my day around that.

• 1:16:52Mindy Pelz?

  Yep.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  That's amazing. I love being in the garden. I love doing yoga. I love having sex with my partner, Brad.

• 1:17:01Mindy Pelz?

  Awesome.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  And I like to put that, like, schedule that as the, the apex moment of the day. And everything else gets scheduled around it.

• 1:17:11Mindy Pelz?

  You know what? I, I, I'm gonna end on this, and then we are definitely doing a play, pleasure episode. So I'm gonna have my team reach out to you so we can get that on. Um, I was interviewed for Age Like a Girl. I was interviewed by Gabby Reese.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:26Mindy Pelz?

  Professional volleyball player.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:17:28Mindy Pelz?

  And, um, I don't know, at some point in the, in, we got talking about libido, and she's like, well, Lauren and I have sex every day at three o'clock in the afternoon. I was like, every day? And she's like, well, almost every day. Sometimes it's every, and I'm like, why three o'clock? And then she just, like, you can hear the podcast. She went on and on. And then as I left, I was, I, I, he was there and I got to meet him and.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  Was it three o'clock?

• 1:17:58Mindy Pelz?

  No, it was, it was, I, I must've come after the sex because I was scheduled at five o'clock.

• 1:18:08Mindy Pelz?

  But he's, he's such a good looking human. He has really strong body. And I was like, I got in the car and I'm like. Well, I can understand why you want to have sex with him every day at 8 o'clock. Like, did you look at your husband? He's of quite a good-looking specimen of a male person, a male body. So.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Larry Hamilton, yes.

• 1:18:29Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. So, but anyways, it was a fun conversation and I think what I'd love to dive into with you is play and pleasure because, you know, tying this all back, so many of us have been disconnected from that, especially pleasure, if you've had sexual trauma, play because you're trying to be responsible and you got to put everybody else's needs ahead of your own and then you'll be loved. Like, there's so much there. So I'm definitely bringing you back to talk about that.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yes, please. Yeah, and over-functioning. Nothing kills libido like over-functioning. So we got to stop that right now.

• 1:19:06Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, well said. Okay, anything else you want to say?

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  You know, I want to finish with maybe a moment of redemption and rehabilitation.

• 1:19:19Mindy Pelz?

  Hmm, please.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  So, we started the conversation with Sunday and reading the Department of Justice, Epstein files and Peter Attia and Deepak Chopra, et cetera. But to me, a more interesting question than what they wrote in their emails and texts is,

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  what's the root cause? Like, what led to these men wanting to be around Jeffrey Epstein? What's the wounding that is responsible for the, the cycle of violence?

• 1:20:01Mindy Pelz?

  Beautiful question.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  In the Epstein cases? So, I don't have the answers. I just want to pose the question.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  And um, and maybe finish with a little prayer for the people who have been affected.

• 1:20:20Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about the victims and where they're sitting right now as this is all coming out. It has to be re-traumatizing. They're probably going through the same feelings that they had back then. Um, so I definitely agree. Um, I am very clear that the systemic patriarchal system is damaging to both men and women. It is, it, it, you know,

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 1:20:50Mindy Pelz?

  The fact that men aren't taught to be vulnerable, that they're not taught to express emotion for fear they would be weak from such a young age is how you develop that, that bro, I need to prove myself mentality.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And the hyper masculinity, the dominance, the bullying.

• 1:21:09Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. So you bring up a really good point and I think that's, you know, that we're all victims here to a system. Um, and, and, and I'll end on a, on a, on a piece of hope.

• 1:21:22Mindy Pelz?

  Which is, this is all out in the light. We're seeing it.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:21:28Mindy Pelz?

  And we, I think women are finally like starting to acknowledge the suppression. And I even think men, I've had some great conversations with my husband, with my son, with other really amazing men that are like the good ones that want to be a part of the solution. So I think, I think that's why I really wanted to keep going after the patriarch because it's the system that, that allowed this to happen and protected this from getting out into the world. And that's the same system that doesn't allow a man in a marriage to express his emotions. Or doesn't allow, or, you know, a man in a podcast interview to allow the female interviewer to lead.

• 1:22:16Mindy Pelz?

  Because he has been marinated in a culture that taught him he needed to be strong and powerful, or there are all kinds of consequences, just like we've been taught in our culture, that you got to wrap yourself up and look beautiful and you need to serve everybody else and then you're worthy. It's damaging to both.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Totally. Amen, sister.

• 1:22:43Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. And now we see it. We all see it.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  We see it. We're aware of it. We're at this moment in our culture where we can solve it.

• 1:22:53Mindy Pelz?

  Thank you.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  Because we can see it so clearly. Like, that's what we get from the Epstein files. We can see it so clearly. We can see the problems. Now we have to solve them.

• 1:23:04Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, I love you. Thank you.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  Love you too, Mimi.

• 1:23:10Mindy Pelz?

  Thank you so much for spontaneously doing this with me. I think like you, I'm just one of those people that injustice is a big button for me.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, huge.

• 1:23:24Mindy Pelz?

  I couldn't sit with this information this week and not feel like I wanted to move into action. And so I feel like calling you was a first step into action. And then having this conversation, I'm thinking even more about what I can do to start to break that system apart. So, thank you.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  Beautiful. Thanks for having me.

• 1:23:45Mindy Pelz?

  Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it. So please leave us a review, share it with your friends, and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.