Ruth Wilson - Be Challenged By What Disgusts You

Ruth Wilson MBE has made a habit of tackling psychologically demanding roles. You’ll know her from playing a mother grieving the loss of her child in The Affair, a sociopathic research scientist in Luther or even from her acclaimed stage performances in Anna Christie and King Lear. Now, Wilson is back with Apple TV's Down Cemetery Road, based on novels by Mick Herron. She stars opposite Emma Thompson, as an art restorer swept up in a high stakes crime drama. We talk about her getting rejected from Oxford University, her failure to run the London Marathon in the way she envisaged and the power of aging naturally. Plus: how her father’s Alzheimer’s diagnosis has helped her live in the present. A beautiful and intelligent conversation with a phenomenally talented actor. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Introduction 02:11 The Power of Art 04:07 Working with Emma Thompson 07:04 Aging Naturally 08:57 Getting Rejected From Oxford 14:04 Grandfather Being a Spy & a Bigamist 20:21 A Very Royal Scandal 23:36: The London Marathon 31:37 Failing to Trust The Creative Process 38:30 The 24-Hour Play 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: ‘People are endlessly fascinating and surprising. They're never what you expect and you can find connections with anyone.’ ‘I think it's important to face things you don't want to see, because only then will you grow. Only then will you live properly.’ ‘Our gift as a human is to be able to think and feel. So, do it and be challenged. Be challenged by what disgusts you.’ 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Ruth stars in Down Cemetery Road - watch on Apple TV Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ 📚 WANT MORE? Sharon Horgan - talks about drama school, auditions and a very personal failure: her marriage https://link.chtbl.com/hR7kycoN Simon Callow - reflects on how admitting vulnerability around his sexuality and ambition shaped his career and self-belief swap.fm/l/3PddGvv8lKReXT5WJRWl Gugu Mbatha-Raw - on how failing at ballet led to her succeeding at acting. Plus: resisting typecasting, dealing with difficult co-stars and how her restlessness drives her forward https://link.chtbl.com/wDCLLc94 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Ruth answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali Producer: Nia Deo Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I remember first watching like myself from the back of my head on a screen because I was like, God, I never see the back of myself. That's how I walk. If I wasn't an actor, I wouldn't, I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done. Just because you have to look at your face, your face is on a poster, it's on a lens and you're pumped up to this size.

• 0:22Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that delves underneath the surface of success to discover how our failures really shape us. Before we get into this conversation, please be sure to tap the subscribe button because it really helps other people find us. And it means that you will never miss a single episode.

• 0:43Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable. So you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 1:28Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels. But I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Arnesta appealed to me. Arnesta makes

• 2:10Elizabeth Day?

  Designer quality rugs, custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home. I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing. And Anesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit Anesta.com and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's Anesta, E R N E S T A dot com. The actor Ruth Wilson has made a habit of tackling psychologically demanding roles. Since her 2006 breakout in the BBC miniseries Jane Eyre, a role she was cast in straight out of drama school,

• 2:55Elizabeth Day?

  Wilson has garnered awards and critical acclaim for her portrayals of complex women. Whether it's a mother grieving the loss of her child in The Affair, a sociopathic research scientist in Luther, a villain in his dark materials, or whether it's Wilson's stellar stage performances as Hedda Gabbler, Anna Christie or Cordelia in King Lear, she brings a fierce intelligence and inner emotion to each role. Along the way, she's been awarded two Olivier's, a Golden Globe and an MBE. She was raised in Shepperton, Surrey, the youngest of four and the only daughter of Nigel, an investment banker, and Mary, who retrained as a probation officer after raising her children.

• 3:37Elizabeth Day?

  At her all-girls Catholic school, the 11-year-old Wilson was a nascent feminist who often questioned authority. At one time, taking in a facts of life book and informing the nuns that their pupils absolutely needed sex education. There were no actors in Wilson's family, or so she thought, until her grandmother died and it emerged that Wilson's grandfather Alexander had been a bigamist and a spy. Some hitherto unknown relatives emerged. It was a story that she later portrayed on screen in 2018. Now Wilson is back with Apple TV's Down Cemetery Road, based on novels by Mick Herron, who also wrote Slow Horses.

• 4:21Elizabeth Day?

  Wilson stars opposite Emma Thompson as an art restorer swept up in a high-stakes crime drama.

• 4:28Elizabeth Day?

  I think it's important to face things you don't want to see, Wilson says about acting, because only then will you grow, only then will you live properly. Ruth Wilson, welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:41Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me.

• 4:43Elizabeth Day?

  That quote you gave about a specific play that you saw, it was Carol Churchill's play, Here We Go.

• 4:49Speaker 00

  I was wondering where that came from, yes, yes.

• 4:51Elizabeth Day?

  Which you describe as a life-changing experience.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was the most, I mean, it's one, you know, you go to plays sometimes and it's when they have a huge effect on you and you think, okay, this is the, this is why theatre is important, or why it can make such an impression on you. And this is a play written by Carol Churchill. It got like one stars across the board. I thought it was the most incredible thing I'd ever seen. It was about death, really. It was about facing death and the end of life. And it was three sort of acts. And the first act was a group of people at a funeral talking about this person who died. And then individually, they all stood out and looked out at the audience and said when their time to die was. And it was just the most uncomfortable thing to watch. People were walking out of the theatre because it was horrible. It was so awkward. It's like painful. But I was like,

• 5:39Speaker 00

  this is amazing. It's making me feel so many things. And I'm watching people walk out because they can't bear it. So I was like, wow, no, this is, we have to feel this. This is what's going to happen to all of us.

• 5:54Elizabeth Day?

  I thought it was so interesting, that analysis of the power of art to confront, given that the young Ruth Wilson was confronting her nuns about, you know, teaching sex education. Is that something that drives you, the need to challenge whoever is watching?

• 6:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. I think there's a sense of, come on, think, feel. You know, only then will you be able to sort of reflect and learn or have empathy or, you know, move forward. And I don't know, I think that's what we do as humans. It's like our gift as a human is to be able to think and feel. So. Do it and be challenged, be challenged what makes you scared, be challenged by what disgusts you, be challenged by those things, question why it disgusts you or why you're upset by it.

• 6:49Elizabeth Day?

  And in Down Cemetery Road, you play this character who feels she's being lied to and wants to call that out. And part of what I loved about it was seeing you and Emma Thompson, these two powerhouses, these two female powerhouses, and it struck me how rare that still is.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is very rare. And in a show like this as well, which is a crime thriller, it's not two women talking about a man. You know, it's two women on a mission being shot at and on boats and planes and automobiles or everything else. And they're really funny and dry-witted and complicated and petulant and childish. And I mean, it's what we all are as humans. So it was a joy to do that and to work with her and find some sort of fun dynamic between the two of us. It's really rare, really rare in the space we're in and a shame that it's still so rare, actually.

• 7:49Elizabeth Day?

  I know, now that Testaly and Claudia Winkleman are leaving Strictly.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  What are we gonna do?

• 7:53Elizabeth Day?

  It's you and Emma.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 7:55Elizabeth Day?

  The natural heirs.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  The natural heirs, aye, bring it on. BBC, we're ready.

• 7:59Elizabeth Day?

  Now, it's not the first time you've acted in the same project as Emma, but I think it's the first time you've seen each other on set. Because you were in Saving Mr Banks, where you played her mother.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  I played her mother, strangely. I mean, yeah, I mean, I've aged well, but no, I played her mum. I never had a scene with her. I was kind of her depressed mother. And we met on the red carpet afterwards. So this is not, you know, that was just a, we had a photo opportunity together really for that. So yeah, this, we actually get to play with each other. And it was, the script is so good because it's not like there's one obvious lead. I mean, she's the sort of more bolshy, older, wisecracking character, but my character's quite surprising and reckless. And so I think we kept surprising each other and the writing kept surprising us and, you know, who we were playing.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  So it was really fun to do because we kept sort of taking the lead from each other or undercutting each other and it leads to a really fun dynamic.

• 9:03Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think you've learnt? From watching her work.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  Yes, she's so free and easy and throws everything away. And doesn't seem to care about anything. I was like, wow, she just, she's got so much freedom and likeness to the way she works. And I thought, that's really, I want to do more of that. So it rubbed off on me during it. And certainly for a piece like this, it's not, you know, it's not like really intense emotional material. So just have fun with it, throw it away. And she's, there's a likeness of touch with her, which I think is really special. And then she can switch on the emotional depth when she needs it.

• 9:46Elizabeth Day?

  We'll get on to your relationship with the creative process later because it pertains to one of your failures. But before we do, I also wanted to ask you about the fact that you and Emma are by any token two phenomenally beautiful women. And you are also women in the Hollywood public eye who have aged naturally. And again, it struck me how rare that is to see and what an act of bravery it is when it shouldn't be.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  It's really hard because the pressure is on everyone does it. Everyone does something to their face. And it's all available now more than ever. It's, it's sort of, you know, you either just, you either choose to sort of join your peers and put stuff in your face and make yourself look, I don't think it makes you look younger. It just makes you look like you've had stuff done. Like if you look at people who are sixty, seventy and someone's had work and someone hasn't, they don't really look different ages. They just look like someone's had work and someone hasn't had work. But, so it does feel like you have, you make a choice and it's sort of.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  I don't know, it's difficult in my industry. If I wasn't an actor, I wouldn't, I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done. Just because you have to look at your face, your face is on a poster, it's on a lens and you're pumped up to this size. Your face is made bigger in a cinema screen, you know, you're like, oh, you can see yourself aging.

• 11:18Elizabeth Day?

  Let's get into your failures because you did this very generous thing. You gave me your failures, this sort of one sentence failures. And then yesterday, I got this, no, this is extraordinary essay that I said beforehand, I was like, this has done my work for me.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  I thought I'd give it more context. It's always me processing what I was thinking about.

• 11:39Elizabeth Day?

  Your first failure is your failure to get into Oxford University.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:42Elizabeth Day?

  Which for an overthinking perfectionist, I imagine, is tricky. But tell me first of all, like, why you applied or who was it who told you that you should?

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Yes, I was thinking about this. It's like a sort of superficial failure because it's not something I hold a lot to now. And don't think I really did at the time, but it was interesting sort of why exactly, why I applied and what it meant to me. I was, I did history at, I was at Esher College at this point. I'd left the convent. I'd gone to Esher College. I spent two years there. I loved it. It was my best years of academia. Like I was doing classics, theatre studies and history. I got on really well with the teachers. I adored it. But I was harboring a secret desire to act. My theatre studies teacher had told me, you should give it a go, but I never mentioned it to anyone. I thought it was a complete pipe dream.

• 12:36Speaker 00

  I didn't believe it would really be possible, but I was harboring this secret desire. So I thought, okay, I'll go to university and I'll do acting on the side. And I didn't know how to get into acting, so I just, you know. And someone, my history teacher said, you should apply to Oxford. I'm like, yeah, okay, actually I know a lot of actors, including Emma who went to Cambridge, but a lot of actors who I admire. They got into acting by going to Oxbridge. I thought that's a way to get into acting.

• 13:07Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  Completely putting the academia side, you know, part aside and thinking I could even do that. So I thought, yeah, okay, I'll apply. And I did one of the worst interviews. Uh, I, I should think ever.

• 13:22Elizabeth Day?

  Why was it so bad?

• 13:23Speaker 00

  My history teacher had told me, I'd done some prep with him and he told me, okay, if they come up with a subject that we haven't studied, just tell them you haven't done that, you haven't studied that. And I found myself saying that over and over again in the interview. And I think it was a way of me not answering the question, or if I didn't know the answer, I'd just go to sort of response. I found myself saying it over and over again, and they're looking more and more disappointed in front of me. And then there was another part of the interview, you had two interviews over a weekend. And the other interview was with this guy, he's, it was going quite well. And then he asked me, so where do you live? And I said, I live in Shepperton. He said, what kind of house do you live in? And I said, uh, well, it's an old Victorian house.

• 14:07Speaker 00

  He said, okay, so who do you think lived there when it was first built? And I was like, mind blank. And I go, that's my clown a bit, I just go completely blank. And I said, oh, actually, it is interesting because on the side of the wall of a house, people have scratched in their initials who've lived at this house. I said, and he said, well, oh, right. So who lived there? And of course, I hadn't ever looked into what, who those initials were. I didn't know who they were at all, had showed no curiosity about who had lived in the house. So I think they were like, okay, she's definitely not, you know, this isn't someone we want. She's got no interest in history whatsoever. And it was kind of, I think,

• 14:50Speaker 00

  it was an, you know, disingenuous reason as to why I wanted to go to Oxford. I didn't care about the academia. I wasn't really interested in studying history. I love history, but wasn't that interested in it. And I was sort of, that was revealed in the interviews, really. And I wasn't, my dad had gone to Oxford as well, so I kind of felt maybe I should follow his footsteps. Um, but I wasn't confident enough in what I, in saying what I really wanted to do at that point.

• 15:19Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm so interested that you felt you shouldn't be open about your desire to act. Why was that, do you think?

• 15:28Speaker 00

  I think from where I grew up, my, no one in my family had gone into acting. No one in my family was an artist of any sort of note. We all, we all did sport and we all did normal subjects. We were kind of very conventional.

• 15:43Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  The idea of going into acting seemed completely absurd. And I, I sort of felt it didn't, it didn't come from anywhere. It didn't feel like there was a path that I could follow. So I felt a bit silly. I thought everyone had those pipe dreams. Everyone wanted to be famous or sing, you know, a singer or an actor or. And so I just thought, maybe this is a sort of silly pipe dream that I have. So I had to, I was pursuing it really secretly. And it was only when I went to, I went to university and did study history at Nottingham. Um, where the stakes weren't so high in a way. And there I found a really amazing community of friends. Who are now very successful in the industry, but we all did acting in this little theatre society.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  And that's where I directed for the first time. And we produced plays and we took a play to Edinburgh and New York and all sorts. And it was where I got to sort of explore my passion in a safe environment. And it was where I decided, okay, I've really got to give this a go.

• 16:46Elizabeth Day?

  And that parallel I drew between you and your grandfather in the introduction. Is that actually a parallel that you've drawn? So it's rather than my projecting what I believe to be.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:55Elizabeth Day?

  But do you, tell me more about that. Because then did that make sense of your desire to play other parts?

• 17:02Speaker 00

  Completely. I mean, my grandfather was a fantasist. I mean, he, he wrote 27 spy novels and he had numerous wives and lots of kids and very odd guy. He was a liar, you know, and that's, I mean, actors. I don't really think they're liars, actually, actors. They're sort of, we live in alternative universes, though. And so I could see where the capacity of imagination had come from and where that creative imagination had come from. And it was that line of the family which was really surprising to me because my dad is quite straight, you know, when, like I said, he worked in the banking and in London and gone to Oxford and was quite a sort of conventional life. So it did make sense to me suddenly that I had

• 17:47Speaker 00

  this other very imaginative, creative side of the family. And his other sons from different families, one had been a jobbing actor his whole life, one had written poetry. So I thought, oh, okay, we do have a creative strand in the family. It's not completely mad that I've gone into this world.

• 18:05Elizabeth Day?

  And what do you think the overall lesson is of this failure, reflecting back on it?

• 18:10Speaker 00

  I don't know. I mean, part of me thinks, that's why I think it's a bit of a superficial failure in a way. It's like, I don't, I think it was more about trusting instinct. Like, I knew, it didn't feel, I didn't feel that Oxford, I would thrive at Oxford. I knew that. I knew going there, it was like, not really me. It felt, I felt flattered by people saying you should give it a go. I felt like, oh, maybe I should carry on, do what my dad did. Maybe this is my way into acting. The actual, you know, I didn't have any real desire to be at Oxford doing history at all. So it felt disingenuous. I felt like, and when I went to Nottingham, I felt instantly at ease there. So I suppose it's something

• 18:50Speaker 00

  about instinct. Maybe it's about instinctive choices and that I, I wasn't admitting to really what I wanted or what I felt was true. And it was, it was revealed to me quite quickly.

• 19:03Elizabeth Day?

  There's an

• 19:04Speaker 00

  Or reveal, yeah, by those interviewers.

• 19:05Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  I was like, okay.

• 19:07Elizabeth Day?

  There's an interesting interplay here between Truth telling and lying.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:11Elizabeth Day?

  Because you describe your grandfather as a liar and yet had this imaginative.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:16Elizabeth Day?

  Fantastical bent. And then you said, I don't think actors are liars. And I agree with you. I don't think they are. I think they're truth tellers.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:21Elizabeth Day?

  And they use performance as a vehicle for telling that truth.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:25Elizabeth Day?

  And this failure is all about you understanding the truth of yourself, really.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah. And it was a long journey of like, working out, being honest with yourself about what you really want. And having the confidence to say it. And I think that was also, for me, it took me a long time to gain the confidence.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  Of my, my truth and my instinct. And I think that whole interview, I was lying all around. I wasn't lying. I was sort of trying to. Cover. And like even the way I reacted, he asked me about who do you think lived in the house? And I just, rather than sort of coming up with some. Or even saying, I don't know, actually, I'm not sure. I would, oh, you know, there's something on the side. I would keep trying to sort of lie my way out of something or bullshit my way out.

• 20:11Elizabeth Day?

  And I think, you know, we're similar ages.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:14Elizabeth Day?

  And I think also for women of our generation, we're in that interesting spot between first wave feminism.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're caught between.

• 20:25Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:26Elizabeth Day?

  And I also experienced that, that sort of desire to please others and to perform to please others.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:33Elizabeth Day?

  Leading me further and further away from my actual self.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 20:37Elizabeth Day?

  And then there was a big implosion in my life. And then I was like, oh, right. Now I get it. Now I have an opportunity to live authentically.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 20:43Elizabeth Day?

  When do you think that happened for you? Was it this Oxford experience?

• 20:47Speaker 00

  No. I mean, I think Nottingham made me, I mean, when I was there, I was with a group of great people, like minded people. And I found my community. I think it was also that. It was like you were surrounded by people. That perhaps were more confident in their desires. And it was similar to your, do you know what I mean? You sort of found people that also were honest about what they wanted to do. And lots of them, we'd done all these plays together and lots of them said, okay, I'm going to go to drama school. And I was like, oh, they're gonna, I, yeah, I fucking want to go to drama school, you know, and. I think it was that. That was the sort of moment of clarity for me and I gave myself two years to get a job. I was like, okay, if they don't want me, I won't, I'll do something else.

• 21:28Elizabeth Day?

  And you went straight into Jane Eyre?

• 21:29Speaker 00

  It was my second job, yeah, and it was, it's almost 20 years ago now.

• 21:33Elizabeth Day?

  Wow.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  20 years next year.

• 21:35Elizabeth Day?

  I just wonder if you'll indulge me.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:37Elizabeth Day?

  Because I just want to say that The Affair.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:41Elizabeth Day?

  Particularly the first season.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:44Elizabeth Day?

  Changed how I thought about storytelling in the most extraordinary way.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:48Elizabeth Day?

  And you know, I also write books and it really like helped me with plot and everything.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:52Elizabeth Day?

  It was amazing. You were amazing.

• 21:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:55Elizabeth Day?

  What was it like that first season? Did you feel you were doing something really special?

• 21:59Speaker 00

  I didn't, I don't think we ever knew it was going to be a massive hit or it was going to work. You never do quite, but I knew it was fun to do and I was really, I loved the challenge of it.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  And then of course it came out and it, yeah, you know, you sign on to however many seasons. I remember Dominic and I at the Golden Globes, you know, won the Golden Globe and we were to, everyone was so shocked because it'd just come out. And I remember looking at him and going, four more, five more years. We've got five more years now.

• 22:28Elizabeth Day?

  This is Dominic West.

• 22:29Speaker 00

  Dominic West was like, five more years. Shit, are we ready for five more years?

• 22:36Speaker 00

  But it was, it was amazing and the cast were amazing and it was really, like you say, it's such an interesting, obvious way of

• 22:44Speaker 00

  writing material or putting a story out there that hadn't been done often. And often that's the best, always a simple approach to something which it seems obvious is the best way.

• 22:55Elizabeth Day?

  You're very good at accents. So obviously you nailed an American accent for The Affair, to the surprise of many people who would then meet you in the street and be like, hang on a second. But you also portrayed Emily Maitlis.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 23:07Elizabeth Day?

  And you nailed her voice, Ruth.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  No, I loved playing her. She was, that was great fun.

• 23:13Elizabeth Day?

  She's great.

• 23:13Speaker 00

  She's great. And I, I mean, what I love, she just, I was like, she loves being Emily Maitlis. I mean, but I was like, I love, I love playing her for that. There was sort of, she's fearless and she, I mean, she does have doubts, but not many. I was like, wow, you're amazing. And I loved her hair. As soon as I put the blonde wig on and put my contact lenses in. And put the voice on, then I was just Emily and her big boots and I, I loved, I loved playing her.

• 23:37Elizabeth Day?

  She lent you the original jacket from the Prince Andrew.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  She did, and her handbag, which was covered, you know, it's like a really expensive handbag she's had for years. And inside it's all got ink, pen ink on the inside. I was going to put my name in there, Ruth was here. Which I didn't, attempted to do.

• 23:54Elizabeth Day?

  I'm sort of hesitant to ask you this question because I don't want to conflate the acting with the real life shenanigans. Are you following what's happening with Prince Andrew? Do you have a certain perspective because you had to get into that mode?

• 24:08Speaker 00

  You're more, I mean, I have more interest. I've got a certain perspective, but because I watched that interview, I mean, I've watched that interview hundreds of times.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  It's like, I've probably watched it more than, well, Gillian Anderson has probably watched an equal amount of me.

• 24:25Speaker 00

  And Michael Sheen. But it was, yeah, so I sort of have an, an understanding, an understanding of how the interview came about. And so I do, I have more interest, I suppose, in it. Whether I have more insight, I don't know. Emily is really interesting. And Emily's so interesting there because she's a journalist and you're probably trained in the same way is that you sometimes are trained not to have opinions. You know, you're trained to sort of be able to take every point of view. And so even if I'd asked Emily quite direct questions, she would never give me a straight opinion. It would be, well, you know, it was always sort of around that answer. So,

• 25:04Speaker 00

  it, it was really fascinating being inside it and it's continuing to reveal. I mean, there's going to be more that comes out, I'm sure, that hasn't come out yet.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  And one thing that was really, this is where I go, sort of art does matter, is that we did that piece and Virginia Giuffre watched the show and she's mentioned it in her book. And she, the speech that Emily gives, or my character gives in the third episode, which is about sort of how women have to keep, the victim has to keep telling their story.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  That really resonated with her and she's quoted that speech word for word in her book. That it was something that she found, she did feel seen or felt validated or understood at least.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  So I feel very proud that she felt that from our show, really.

• 26:03Elizabeth Day?

  Autumn's here, soup season is back and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is Hexclad. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks and the cleanup doesn't turn into just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick. So you get proper performance without the usual faff. They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius and the stay cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook.

• 26:46Elizabeth Day?

  Hexclad is an at-home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link, hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale. Your second failure is your failure to complete the London Marathon in 2024 in the way that you want it. Now, but this has actually a very, very emotional resonance to it. Why were you running the marathon in the first place?

• 27:22Speaker 00

  So my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's probably, well, about five years ago. He ran the very first London Marathon, so 1981. And my brother came up with the idea that we should all run it in honour of him and for the charity Alzheimer's Research. And my sister-in-law had lost her mother to Alzheimer's and had run the marathon four times in her honour. So we were like, okay, yeah, we should do this. I mean, all of us were slightly reluctant, the idea of running a marathon. I'd never considered ever running a marathon. In my life, I'd never, it'd never crossed my mind. Um, but we all decided to do it. We got places.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  And then, um, yeah, then we, it became competitive, which is what happens in my family. It was quite interesting. It was fun, but the process of training, we're all on Strava, keeping up with each other. You know, being supportive, but also keeping tabs on each other, you know, it's like.

• 28:19Elizabeth Day?

  And cause you're the only girl and the youngest, I guess there's an extra pressure.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was like, I cannot let the team down. I'm not gonna, I have to, this is always the case. I have to keep up with them, do as well as them, if not better. And that's my own shit. Do you know what I mean? It's not anything they really put on me, but it was definitely a sense. It was, you know, a sense of like competitive nature. My nephew was also doing it, which was lovely. So it was five of us all together. And then it sort of came to the day and it was, we all were running our separate races. I, I knew that everyone was trying to get a time. And I knew that everyone was sort of trying to get under four hours. And it became about that. It was weirdly in your own drive.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  Running it, it was great. It was sort of amazing seeing everyone around, you know, all the amazing people running for different charities. Very moving. And I had in my head this idea, I'd imagined me finishing, like I'd imagined, oh, I'm gonna run across the line. I'm gonna be. Triumphant, crying, you know, it's all gonna be really emotional. I had this sort of idea of what it's gonna feel like at the end. Um, and then of course, five miles before the end, my leg completely packed up, like my shin and my calf just froze. I couldn't. Uh, I couldn't, I could hardly walk in it really. I was limping around. And, um, I just thought, I'm gonna have to walk the rest of it. I can't, I can't drop out. I've got to walk.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  But, and I thought I was gonna do it my own. And then, um. One of my brothers who was behind me, he caught up with me and he, he's like, what's, are you all right? I was like, no, I fucked my leg. I'm like, run on.

• 30:00Elizabeth Day?

  Go on, save yourself.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  I was like, no, you go. And he's like, no, I'm gonna walk with you. And he stopped and we walked the last four miles or five miles on together. And it was really emotional and it was really, um. At first, I was, I was very disappointed. I was disappointed in myself. I was disappointed in uh my body.

• 30:24Speaker 00

  I've been, I've put myself through quite difficult things, like in my work and and my body's not the thing that gives up. Do you know what I mean? It's like that always goes, keeps going. So I was like, oh, wow, my body can't do this. I just assumed I'd be able to do it. I assumed I'd get round. And I did do it. I mean, even now I'm talking like I'm, um. It was a disappointment. It's like, I did get round. It's like twenty six miles. It's intense.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  But he stopped and he walked with me and

• 30:54Speaker 00

  you know, slowly in that, as we walked the last four miles, five miles.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  Sort of my expectation of what the outcome was supposed to be sort of gradually disappeared. Like I just was like, okay, just, you're in the moment now. And this is what's important.

• 31:14Elizabeth Day?

  And very emotional, actually even in the retelling of it, I feel that emotion.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:20Elizabeth Day?

  And there's something about presence in the moment that I imagine is particularly meaningful, given your father's condition.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 31:29Elizabeth Day?

  How is he?

• 31:30Speaker 00

  He's good. He's like, well, he's good. He's, he's, um, he's as well as he can be in a way. I mean, my mum is extraordinary. And I think it really helps if you have a partner who takes care of you and makes you feel safe. If you're in that scenario, if you're, if you're losing, you know. She, um, she's so generous and she's so patient with him. And he is, I mean, he knows who we are.

• 32:00Speaker 00

  He can't remember what happened yesterday or what's happening tomorrow. He, um, he, mum needs to take him to the bathroom and, um, she needs to dress him every morning.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  He sort of has to be constantly reminded of where he is and what he's doing.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  And he can't really communicate, he's lost language. He occasionally is really lucid and very funny, he'll come up with a joke every now and then. So he's there, but he's sort of fading in and out.

• 32:32Elizabeth Day?

  So much for sharing.

• 32:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:34Elizabeth Day?

  And thank you also for the work that you do for the Alzheimer's research.

• 32:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:37Elizabeth Day?

  Um, my best friend lost her mother.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:40Elizabeth Day?

  To Alzheimer's at the beginning of this year. And so I have a little perspective onto what that is like. And I think these conversations are so important. And it's one of those diseases that needs funding and needs more attention.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  It's, it's one of our biggest killers and no one, I think because it's associated with old age, people dismiss it as just old age. You don't have to suffer from Alzheimer's, there are going to be, and there's so much money being ploughed. Well, there's not enough, we need more money being ploughed into research. Because, and there's things on the cusp of discovering, um, like a cure or, you know, the real factors behind it. It's still, it's a bit like cancer in that it's very particular to the individual. So it manifests very differently for every person. Um, and that's why it's so hard to find one cure for it.

• 33:41Speaker 00

  You have to kind of deal with a human who's having the experience. But it is, it is, um, it's cruel, it's a cruel disease and it, it slowly takes the life away from someone. And, you know, I was looking at a photo of my dad the other day and I was like, ah, that was him, that was him. You know, he was always, he, he loved talking, he loved having big, massive chats about politics, history. We'd talk for hours, you know, we'd go, we'd be up till two in the morning chatting about what's going on in the world. And my dad and mum, you know, mum was a socialist or she was lefty and dad was a Tory. So we'd have these great debates at home, always clash of politics and ideas.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  So it's sad seeing, I can't have those conversations with him anymore.

• 34:31Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I wish your father and your mother.

• 34:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:34Elizabeth Day?

  The best and.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:35Elizabeth Day?

  We're thinking of them and thank you so much for talking about something so important.

• 34:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:41Elizabeth Day?

  There are so many things I wish I'd known when I started this podcast and my production company, Daylight. Like, why am I spending hours trying to make a website look good? Why am I designing everything from scratch? And why am I spending all my time just doing admin? What I really needed was one place that could do all of this for me. Enter Shopify. Shopify has beautiful, ready-made templates that make your website look polished without needing to become a graphic designer overnight. Its AI tools can help you get your site up and running quickly, and Shopify Checkout makes it really easy for customers to actually go from, "Ooh, I like that," to, "Yes, I'll have one."

• 35:21Elizabeth Day?

  If Shopify had existed when I started out, I could have saved myself a lot of time, stress, and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.co.uk/fail. Autumn's here, soup season is back, and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording, and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is Hexclad. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks, and the

• 36:06Elizabeth Day?

  cleanup doesn't turn into just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick, so you get proper performance without the usual faff. They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius, and the stay-cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook. Hexclad is an at-home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link, hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale.

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• 37:18Elizabeth Day?

  Your final failure, it's a little one. It's a small, little failure.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  I looked at Malcolm Gladwell, I was like, Jesus, his are really intense. I was like, okay, I've got to be a bit more serious on my failures.

• 37:29Elizabeth Day?

  I'm glad you looked at Malcolm Gladwell because he actually, one of his failures was failure to run.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  Oh, was it?

• 37:35Elizabeth Day?

  Well, he started taking joy in the mediocrity of his running, rather than being competitive with himself about it.

• 37:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:42Elizabeth Day?

  Well, your final one is your failure to trust the creative process.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, deep dive.

• 37:48Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Deep dive.

• 37:49Elizabeth Day?

  So has that got any better with all your many awards?

• 37:57Speaker 00

  No, funnily enough, no, it has. It has got better. I mean, this is just a, it's a broad one because I was thinking, okay, what is it that I do attempt and fail at consistently? And it is, it is failure every single time, no matter how, you know, well a show goes down or whatever, how well a job does and out in the world. In the process of it, I consistently think it's going to be an absolute failure and think that I'm an absolute failure in it. And it's so weird. It's like, come on. And my partner's always like, okay, Ruth, you said this last time. And I'm like, no, but this time, this time, this time. No, it's different this time. He's like, you said that last time.

• 38:39Speaker 00

  So it's some weird, I don't know, I haven't sort of managed to trace a new pathway in my brain as to what the reality is. And I don't know why. I think it's like many reasons why, but it manifests in a way of, if I'm doing a play in rehearsals, I have sort of.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  You know, massive crisis of faith in the material, in what I'm doing. If it's TV and film, and it happens more often than, it's usually, once the day is done of filming, that I'll go home. And on the day, the reality of the actual scene and doing it, probably fine. Bored lots of different things. But I go home and eat my own head for hours, obsessing over what I should have done, what I didn't do well enough. Completely pointless. And it's exhausting and it's boring for everyone around me. And it's, it's just, it's not reality, actually. So it's quite weird that I do it and it's, um,

• 39:38Speaker 00

  I, I'm getting better. I am getting better, but I, it is a failure that I want to work on.

• 39:43Elizabeth Day?

  It's so interesting though, because as you're talking, I relate to everything you say, albeit not with acting. But with a podcast interview, I will constantly be thinking, God, that I phrased that question so badly.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:54Elizabeth Day?

  And then when I listen back, I'm like, why didn't I ask this? Why did I gabble on? Why didn't I leave silence here? And again, with writing books, I now understand, a bit like your partner was saying, it's part of my process, approximately two thirds of the way through, I will think I'm the worst writer who has ever committed pen to paper.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's obvious, most people have this feeling, right?

• 40:14Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. But I, I wonder if it's actually because you can see all the things that you could be doing, it makes you a better actor in a way.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, just very neurotic. I mean, I, when I look at everyone, I'm going, I'm not sure she's going home. And, you know, breaking down the scene.

• 40:30Elizabeth Day?

  Have you asked her?

• 40:31Speaker 00

  I will ask her. I don't think she does. I mean, well, okay, I'll be surprised if she does. I think she has a beer and just has a great time. And there was one time recently, I was like, okay, just stop, think, don't think that. And suddenly there was an empty, blank, nothing. I was like, well, I, I, there's those things I could do now. I could work out, I could read a book, I could, you know, make dinner, I could do loads. Suddenly, actually, if I take, took, took it away, there's loads of things I could do, but there was a sort of emptiness.

• 41:02Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  And I sort of thought, oh, this is a habit that I've taught myself to do, that makes it film.

• 41:11Speaker 00

  More important than it actually is, maybe.

• 41:14Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, and also maybe you're scared of the emptiness.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  I'm scared of the emptiness.

• 41:17Elizabeth Day?

  You're filling it.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  Exactly, I'm filling it with just really useless shit. Because, you know, we've done the scene, you can't go back to it, it's done as dusted. What's the point in worrying about it?

• 41:25Elizabeth Day?

  Do you watch back your own work if it's on TV or film?

• 41:28Speaker 00

  I, I, I sometimes have to because I'm sometimes produce stuff. And so you're in the edit or you're getting sent edits of it. And I do, I'll maybe watch one episode just to see tonally or if it's working. I kind of hate it.

• 41:46Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 41:46Speaker 00

  Although there is a plan to watch the whole eight episodes of Down Cemetery Road on one day. Emma's idea, I blame her entirely. And I'm dreading it, I don't, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to make it through. I have to watch eight hours of myself, I mean, that's not fun.

• 42:03Elizabeth Day?

  No.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  That's kind of like, oh my god. Why did I do that? Sometimes you're like, oh, that's okay, oh, that really works. And then other times you're like, that's just, oh my god. And then you're like, I look old.

• 42:14Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, rude.

• 42:17Elizabeth Day?

  You look great and you're amazing.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  But can you imagine watching yourself?

• 42:19Elizabeth Day?

  I can't, it's horrendous. Like, I struggle with this having to be filmed for social media clips. I just now seek to try and disconnect myself. I'm like, that's just a version of myself, it's not actually how I look.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  No, exactly, that's all you have, all you can do.

• 42:33Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  I remember first watching like myself from the back of my head on a screen. Because I was like, god, I never see the back of myself. That's how I walk? Oh, god. You know, it was like suddenly.

• 42:43Elizabeth Day?

  I had, it's so weird, I just had this experience yesterday of seeing a film of me walking away. And I was like, god, I'm so a hunchback, it's like round-shouldered, sort of lumpen-ove walking on the screen.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  It's awful, yeah.

• 42:56Elizabeth Day?

  People know too much.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:58Elizabeth Day?

  What is the worst creative experience you've ever had in this context? And then what's the best?

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Okay, so the worst, and I'm, I'm picking like, it was a job that actually, and this is, this is another proof of why it's completely useless, is. It was a film I did called The Little Stranger, which is like a film with Lenny Abramson directed it and I think it was a particular point in my life, to be honest. I think I was sort of, it was like, I was about thirty seven or something and probably going through some sort of transition, but very, I was hyper self-conscious for some reason. And I was doing, we all had, I had like fake teeth in, I was very, I was playing a posh woman called Caroline Ayers, and it's not a book, an adaptation of a book. Everyone was, had like tashes on and it was a little bit.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  And it wasn't comedic, it was very naturalistic, but there was something I felt very uncomfortable and self-conscious and I felt like Lenny, even though this isn't true, again, it's all in my brain, I felt like he wasn't happy with what I was doing or something. And I was deeply self-conscious through the whole of that film. And I thought it was gonna be the end of my career, or it was over. And my poor boyfriend was getting it every night, I was like this. And I felt so uncomfortable on set and being looked at. And then the actual final product is one of my better performances. And I was like, okay, I can't, I've got no control over this. This means even in discomfort, it, the camera reads something interesting.

• 44:31Elizabeth Day?

  What was the best creative experience you had?

• 44:33Speaker 00

  The twenty-four hour play, which was again, because I had no time to think anything. I couldn't, the whole setup of that, so this is a twenty-four hour play I did on stage. I, I did one scene a hundred times with a hundred different men, most of which weren't actors. And I'd never met them before, never rehearsed a scene with them. It was like a ten, fifteen minute scene. Every two hours I'd have a break for fifteen minutes and got to pee and eat some food. But I was on stage doing this repetitive thing. It was a kind of piece of performance art really, rather than straight theatre. But it was the most electric and

• 45:16Speaker 00

  Just fulfilling thing I've done in my life because I I couldn't plan anything. It was totally up to the gods who walked on. And it was about creating, again, being completely present, creating some sort of unique energy with that person opposite you. And they're all randoms, you know, I never met them before. And we had to dance, we had to kiss, we had to like sort of break up and, you know, leave each other and whatever. It was all very interesting. It was fascinating. I was so full of love by the end of it. Because like, people are endlessly fascinating and surprising. They're never what you expect. And you can find connection with anyone.

• 45:58Elizabeth Day?

  That's the most incredible note to end this on. I am such a firm believer in the power of connection. I have Only Connect tattooed on my wrist. It is everything.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:08Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm so, so grateful to you, Ruth Milson, for coming on to How to Fail.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  No, thank you for having me. It's been wonderful.

• 46:15Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.