Pod Insights The Rest Is History 522. Warlords of the West: A Clash of Ice and Fire (Part 3) About this episode By 711 Europe and the Frankish warlords were facing a graver threat than ever before. Bands of Northern African, nominally Muslim raiders had begun a steady incursion throughout the West, loosely unified under the banner of the Umayyads. Having already taken and plundered the Christian territories of the Goths, their eyes now fell upon the Frankish kingdom in Gaul, by now the greatest power in Europe. It would be a formidable prize if taken. But fortunately for the Franks, their leader was the greatest of their warlords since the rise of Clovis I: the mighty Charles Martel. Finally, the two great hosts - Charles with his allies from Aquitaine and the Umayyads under the leadership of Abd al-Rahman al-Ghafiqi. A world shaking, spear shattering, blood-letting battle would ensue, the outcome of which would come to determine the future of Europe.
Join Tom and Dominic as they discuss the build up to, climax, and aftermath of the Battle of Tours - one of the most important battles in Western history, which would prove the making of the Franks, and pave the road to the ascent of Charlemagne.
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Producer: Theo Young-Smith
Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett + Aaliyah Akude
Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor
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Transcript 10,740 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:38 Dominic Sandbrook? A victorious line of march had been prolonged above a thousand miles from the Rock of Gibraltar to the banks of the Loire. The repetition of an equal space would have carried the Saracens to the confines of Poland and the Highlands of Scotland. The Rhine is not more impassable than the Nile or Euphrates, and the Arabian fleet might have sailed without a naval combat into the mouth of the Thames. Perhaps? The interpretation of the Quran would now be taught in the schools of Oxford, and her pulpits might demonstrate... Straight to a circumcised people, the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Muhammad. From such calamities was Christendom delivered by the genius and fortune of one man.
2:23 Dominic Sandbrook? Charles, the illegitimate son of the elder Pepin, was content with the titles of mayor or duke of the Franks, but he deserved to become the father of a line of kings. That was Edward Gibbon in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, one of the most famous passages of historical prose ever written. He is describing the legacy of the Battle of Tours, which was fought on the 10th of October 732, or perhaps 733, nobody is entirely sure, between the Franks and what he called an invading force of Saracens. So Tom, great passage, great book, great subject. Just bring some of it alive for us. So who is Charles? Who are the Saracens?
3:08 Dominic Sandbrook? Where are we and what's going on?
3:10 Tom Holland? Okay, so we are still in our series on the Franks. And Charles, who Gibbon in that passage is very careful to specify, is not a king, but a mayor or a duke of the Franks. He is perhaps the greatest of all the Frankish warlords since the time of Clavis, the king who founds the great kingdom of the Franks as the Roman Empire is falling. But we're now in the early 8th century and Charles will be known from the following century onwards as Charles Martel, the Hammer. So a tremendous name for a guy who has a very mailed fist. The Saracens are an army in the service of the Amaid Caliphate.
3:54 Tom Holland? So that is the first great Arab empire, the first great empire of Islam. And this is why Gibbon is casting it as a peculiarly decisive clash. He's framing it as a battle between Christianity and Islam. And he's suggesting that had it gone the other way, had the Franks lost to the Saracens, to the Muslims, to the Arabs, then Perhaps we might have seen the interpretation of the Quran taught in Oxford. And there's a bit of a joke here because Gibbon had been a student at Oxford and had absolutely hated it. He despised all the dons who at the time were Anglican priests.
4:36 Tom Holland? And so I think he's slightly tweaking the noses of his old teachers and suggesting that they might have been circumcised followers of Mohammed. But it's obviously, it's not just a joke because Gibbon has a genius for, well, Byron referred to his solemn sneer. When he makes a joke, there's often a kind of very serious purpose. And he's making a serious point here. He's saying, this is one of the great decisive battles of world history.
5:02 Dominic Sandbrook? And this is an argument that people made, particularly in the 19th and early 20th century, isn't it? That the Battle of Tours, if it was fought in 732, was one of the genuinely pivotal moments when history might have gone differently. That had the Franks lost to the Saracens, then Islam, the advance of the Arab armies would have continued up into France. And that the entire course of European and world history might have been different. And in fact, all Europe might have fallen within the kind of Islamic world. And people genuinely made that argument very vigorously, among them Adolf Hitler, right?
5:42 Tom Holland? Right. So most of the historians in the 19th and 20th century who are pushing this case, they see the possibility that Christian Europe might have become Muslim as a disaster. So Gibbon refers to it in that passage he read as calamity. But one person, he said, who thought it was a great shame that the Franks had won was Adolf Hitler. And the reasons for this, he spelt it out in his table talk, and I'll read it. Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers, he said, already you see the world had have fallen into the hands of the Jews. So gutless a thing is Christianity, then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism. That cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh heaven to the bold warrior alone.
6:27 Tom Holland? Then the Germanic races would have conquered. Conquered the world, Christianity alone prevented them from doing so.
6:35 Dominic Sandbrook? Craigy.
6:35 Tom Holland? Because to Hitler, Christianity is a kind of weedy, wet religion that encourages peace.
6:40 Dominic Sandbrook? But this is not what the vast majority of historical scholars now think, is it? Most agree now that the Battle of Tours was massively overblown. It was kind of a propaganda victory above all else, partly because the Arabs are not trying to launch a massive invasion of what was once Gaul. It's a raid, one among many that they launch, and the consequences are perhaps not as great as is often thought.
7:04 Tom Holland? Yeah, so that's one argument that is, I would say, is pretty much the consensus now among academics on the status of the Battle of Tours. That it's not an invasion, that it's a raid, also that it's not a clash between Christianity and Islam, because no contemporary really seems to frame it as such. And also that, in a way, it owes more to faction fighting among various Frankish warlords, of whom Chal Martel is one, than it does to Muslim dreams of world conquest. But, you know, there are plenty of other scholars who do hold to the kind of Gibbonian view, and it's a debate that's been rumbling away now for decades.
7:41 Tom Holland? And it is a debate that has kind of echoed beyond universities in a way that is unusual for debates about Frankish history. Because this, I would say in general, you know, the period that we've been discussing, these centuries of Frankish history are among the most obscure in European history. It's not a period that people know a great deal about, but the Battle of Tours does have cut through. And there's an obvious reason for that, which is basically the kind of political context in Europe today. And specifically, the fact that over recent decades, the growth of the Muslim population in Europe has been considerable. And this particularly in France, so the ancient Frankish heartland, it has generated quite a far-right reaction.
8:26 Tom Holland? But, you know, not only in France, so in Britain, for instance, there are now Muslim scholars preaching the Quran in Oxford. And there are people in here, in Britain, as in France, as in other countries in Europe, who regard this with extreme hostility. And I think the implications of this for the discussion of the Battle of Tours in far-right circles is, I mean, is unbelievably toxic. So you can see this in the way that it's been used by far-right groups. So. As early as the 1970s in France, in the wake of the Algerian war, de Gaulle's settlement of that, and the growth of Algerian immigration into France, in the 70s, there was an anti-Algerian
9:10 Tom Holland? terrorist group, so far-right terrorist group, and it called itself the groupe Charles Martel, so drawing its direct inspiration from the Frankish duke who had won the Battle of Tours. Then in 2015, after the Charlie Hebdo massacre, you know, so the publishers of the Stereocall magazine in France who were kind of shot by an Islamist gunman, Jean-Marie Le Pen, who was leader of the National Front at the time, father of Marine Le Pen, there was this slogan, je suis Charlie, so people saying, you know, identifying themselves with the victims of the attack on Charlie Hebdo. But Jean-Marie Le Pen said, no, je suis Charlie Martel. And perhaps the most brutal manifestation of the way in which the far-right have identified
9:53 Tom Holland? with Charles Martel is that in 2019, people may remember, there was a terrorist attack in New Zealand, of all places, so the opposite end of the world from France, done by an Australian terrorist, and he attacked a mosque and an Islamic centre in Christchurch, killed 51 people, and on his gun, he had inscribed the name of Charles Martel. So you can see that for academics, this is very difficult, I think, to kind of banish this from what they're doing, wouldn't you say? I mean, it's kind of-
10:27 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, of course. I do think, when you read an academic on the Battle of Tours, academics who say, oh, it's a terribly important moment, it's a pivotal moment in world civilisation, a battle that changed everything, they always do tend to be of a very particular political persuasion.
10:39 Tom Holland? I think equally you could say that those who say that it's unimportant, that it's a minor border skirmish, also tend to be of a particular political persuasion, which is simply to say that it is difficult, I think, to remove discussions of this battle from current political contexts. So just as there are people on the right who say, this was the saving of Europe, so on the other hand, on the left, you occasionally, you will get the sense that, basically, it was kind of racist of the Franks not to have surrendered to the invaders at Tours. And- I think it reflects the fact that maybe of all the battles we've discussed so far on The Rest Is History, this is politically the most sensitive of the lot. So that's
11:21 Tom Holland? why I think before we get into the details of the battle itself, it's really important to explain the context for what is going on here in some detail.
11:29 Dominic Sandbrook? All right. Well, let's start with the Arabs. So Gibbon calls them Saracens, which is not a word that you often hear these days. But actually, they're not really Arabs, are they? Most of their army are almost certainly Berbers from North Africa, from what we'd once have called Mauritania, or probably even lots of them from Spain. So they're not Arabs. And actually, are they even Muslims? Because of course, at this point, Islam is still in the process of kind of being formed, isn't it, to some degree?
11:54 Tom Holland? Yeah, it's really difficult to know what word to use to describe these invaders for the reasons that you said. I mean, and certainly the Berbers in the army, probably the majority, I mean, loads of them would have had only the haziest sense of what Islam was. And as you say, Islam itself is still in the process of evolution at this point. Islam at this point is best thought of as a kind of franchising system. So groups of people beyond the kind of the heartlands of the Amaid empire back in Syria and Iraq and Arabia are licensed by the caliph in Baghdad to form their own kind of posses, their own groups. And essentially, the license that the caliph is giving these groups of
12:34 Tom Holland? people is to go out and proclaim the revelations of Muhammad to the limits of the world. But the reason that lots of people kind of buy into this isn't necessarily because they are kind of passionately committed to spreading the message of the Quran. It's because they want to go out and grab stuff and
12:51 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
12:52 Tom Holland? strip and loot monasteries and towns or whatever.
12:54 Dominic Sandbrook? It's a raiding party, not, I guess, totally unlike Scandinavian raiding party in a, you know, not massively dissimilar period.
13:01 Tom Holland? I think you're right. And again, that's kind of parallels with this in the Viking period is something we might come to kind of later on in the episode. And so what you have going over the course of the late 7th, going into the 8th centuries, is warbands who are kind of nominally Muslim, spreading westwards from Egypt, along the northern coast of Africa, all the way to Mauritania. And then in seven eleven, there's a kind of exploratory raid across the Straits of Gibraltar. So a warband of Berbers, of Arabs, of Muslims, whatever you want to call them, they land in Spain and they have spectacular success. So they meet the king of the Visigoths. This is the kingdom that had given the Franks Brunhild and wipes
13:43 Tom Holland? the king and his army out. They go on, they capture Toledo, which is in the centre of Spain, the main Visigothic city. And it's a spectacular victory. It's a kind of Hernán Cortés type victory, the overthrow of a great and wealthy empire. And the loot that gets sent back to Syria is so overwhelming that Spain comes to seem to the eyes of the Amaids back in Syria, a kind of land of wonders. It's a place of talking statues, where cities are fashioned entirely out of brass, just full of treasure and also full of slaves. So a massive coffle of 30,000 Visigothic slaves are sent back to Damascus. And again, this is seen as being something extraordinary. And so it's not surprising
14:27 Tom Holland? in the wake of this success that the invaders press onwards. And by seven nineteen, so that's just eight years after they'd landed in Gibraltar, the invaders have crossed the Pyrenees. And in seven twenty, they capture the great city of Narbonne, which there's still a kind of tiny strip of Visigothic territory on the coast of southern Gaul. Narbonne falls to the invaders and then they fan out to conquer the remaining Visigothic strongholds in southern Gaul, so Besie, Agda, Nîme, they all fall. And essentially, pretty much the whole of the Visigothic kingdom, with the exception of kind of the northern reaches of Spain, have fallen in the space of basically a decade to these invaders. I mean, it's an spectacular feat of conquest.
15:09 Dominic Sandbrook? So now beyond that is the land of the Franks. And that's the kingdom we talked about last week. It's ruled by the Merovingian dynasty. We left it with Clothar II, he's won his victory over Brunhild, and he's basically got a monarchy over the whole of what was once the Roman territory of Gaul. So all the different kingdoms are now acknowledging him as their, or the different bits, rather, are now acknowledging him as their king. But I read that the seeds of the Merovingens downfall had already been sown.
15:39 Tom Holland? It's contained in this very success. So yes, as you say, Clothar II had patched together all the various parts of what had been Roman Gaul. So Nostria, which is the kingdom kind of abutting the channel, Austrasia, which is the kind of the eastern reaches of the kingdom, stretching beyond the Rhine, deep into Germany, Burgundy, which is the kind of the southeast, and Aquitaine, which is the southwest, and Clothar II has managed to rule them all. But the reason why this ultimately is not good for the Merovingen dynasty is that basically it's too large, it turns out, for Clothar II and his son and heir Dagobert to rule. So what Clothar ends up having to do is to essentially send
16:21 Tom Holland? his sons out to rule as kind of sub kings. So one goes off to Aquitaine, he's absolutely useless. A chronicler dismisses him as simple minded. Dagobert, Clothar's son, he's sent off to rule Austrasia, he's slightly more efficient. But when he arrives, he's young, he's inexperienced, and this means that he is very malleable in the hands of the two greatest men in Austrasia, who we have already met. We met them at the end of the previous episode, because these are a lord called Pepin
16:54 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
16:55 Tom Holland? and a bishop called Arnolf, and these are the guys who had got together to overthrow Brunhild. They'd betrayed her, and so she'd ended up being captured by Clothar and then very horribly executed. So Arnolf serves the young Dagobert as his kind of preeminent councillor, and Pepin serves him kind of off and on. Sometimes he retires, sometimes he comes back. But he is basically not just the kind of the leading magnate in Austrasia, but he is also the leading official in that kingdom. And his status is in Mayordomas, which you know, you could anglicise that to be Major Domo, his mayor, he's the leading official. And these officials are very, very ambitious. So powerful, ambitious
17:39 Tom Holland? and resolute were the mayores who stood at the most important junctions of Merovingian polity. So that's how Yitzhak Hen, scholar of the Merovingian kingdom, describes them. And I guess traditionally, so going back to the time of Clovis, the role of these mayores, these mayors, let's call them that, was to kind of mediate between the king and the local magnates, the local lords. But Pepin is so able, so powerful, Dagobert is so kind of inexperienced and young, that Pepin is able to make himself into something more than that, effectively the power behind the throne. And Pepin's achievement is to
18:20 Tom Holland? set up what effectively is a kind of shadow dynasty to the Merovingian dynasty. So Pepin's daughter goes on to marry the son of Arnolff, the bishop, who's the kind of the chief advisor. Yeah. And this couple, they have a son who is absolutely kind of in every sense, a chip off the old block. So he, like his grandfather, is also called Pepin. So he's called Pepin of Harestal by the chroniclers to distinguish him from his grandfather. He becomes the mayor of Australia in 680. And, I mean, he's not just the power behind the throne, he puts the throne in his shadow. He is an absolutely domineering figure. And he's able to do that because for the Merovingians, very unfortunate series of circumstances,
19:04 Tom Holland? there are succession of kind of children who succeed to the throne, die, succeeded by another child. You know, if they grow to adulthood, they're absolutely useless. And so in the shadow of Pepin of Harestal, this great overweening mayor, the Merovingian king is reduced effectively to a kind of cipher. And by the time that Pepin of Harestal dies in 714, he's made himself the master, not just of Australia, where he's the mayor, but also of Noystria, that northern kingdom of Burgundy. And he's also been pushing eastwards. So under his leadership, the Franks have begun conquering swathes of what today are the Netherlands and central Germany. And
19:45 Tom Holland? Pepin of Hurstal is no longer content just with the title of mayor. He wants something more and so he has given himself an absolutely brilliant title. Dux et princeps francorum, the duke and the prince of the Franks. And he has established this title as though it was a kind of kingship as hereditary. And his son, Pepin of Hurstal's son, is Charles Martel.
20:11 Dominic Sandbrook? Right, so Charles Martel, although there is a mere virgin king, we don't need to really worry too much about him. He's called Theoderate IV.
20:16 Tom Holland? Yeah, he's useless.
20:17 Dominic Sandbrook? But Charles Martel is the ruler of huge swathes of what was once Gaul, Australia, Nostradamus, Burgundy and so on. But that leaves one other place in the south east of France, which is Aquitaine. And Aquitaine stands against Charles Martel, is that right? And this is going to be very important for our story of the Battle of Tours. So Aquitaine has got a duke called Odo or Oddo, let's call him Odo. So tell me about him, he's a very grizzled, experienced bloke.
20:48 Tom Holland? He is battle hardened, cunning and absolutely does not want to submit to the rule of Charles Martel. You know, he wants to effectively maintain his kind of independence. He's Frankish, but he's able to draw on the kind of the ancient traditions of the Roman province that had been there. So it's a kind of independence that he wants to uphold. And this has been fine while he's only had to deal with Charles Martel and the kind of the Franks to the north, north of Loire. The nightmare for Odo is the arrival of the Saracens, as he calls them. He is sandwiched between these two terrifying enemies. So he's got the Frankish kingdom to the north and he's got the Saracens who are kind of riding up from the south.
21:30 Tom Holland? And so unsurprisingly, Odo tries to kind of play these two kind of menacing enemies off against one another. So in 721, the Amaid forces, they've completed their conquest of the Visigothic stretches of Gaul. And so then they turn their attentions to Aquitaine. And the spring of 721, they lay siege to the greater city in Aquitaine, which is Toulouse. And Odo turns to Charles Martel and he says, look, we're all Franks together. Can you come and help me? This is a nightmare. And Charles Martel, far from rallying to the cause of Christendom, he says, no, I'm not interested. You're on your own. So poor Odo has to kind of basically deal with this crisis under his own agency.
22:14 Tom Holland? And he does it very, very effectively because he gathers his forces together. He approaches the besieging Arabs around Toulouse by stealth and he takes them completely by surprise. And he wipes them out. And this is the first great defeat suffered by the Amaid forces in Europe. And Odo is absolutely triumphant. He writes a letter to the Pope saying, I'm absolutely brilliant. I've killed 375,000 Saracens, which is possibly an exaggeration. But clearly it is a crucial victory for the moment he has saved Aquitaine from invasion. And he's won a breathing space, not just for himself, but also for Charles Martel up in the northern lands. Basically to prepare for the storm that they know is going to come.
22:59 Tom Holland? They know the storm clouds of war are gathering. And so both men prepare for the invasion that is coming. And they know this because even though the Amaids have been defeated before the walls of Toulouse, they have not been expelled from Gaul.
23:12 Dominic Sandbrook? And they are launching raids all the time northwards as far as Burgundy, right?
23:16 Tom Holland? Right, so Autun in Burgundy, which Brunhilde, in the final years of her regency, had made her capital. A kind of very beautiful ancient Roman city that gets put to the torch. Lots of other towns do, particularly monasteries. You compare to the Arab invaders to the Vikings.
23:33 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
23:33 Tom Holland? For the same reason, they target monasteries because they're full of kind of riches that can be carted off. And so this is looking really bad. So Odo, his strategy is to try and kind of pick Arab warlords off and enter into an alliance with them. And he succeeds in doing this with a Berber warlord called Uthman, who has been given the command of what today is Catalonia. So for the Amaids, it's a kind of border region, a marcher region. And Odo wants to stabilise his southern frontier. And Uthman wants to carve Catalonia out as a kind of independent fiefdom. He wants to rule it under his own steam rather than in subordination to the Amaid governor in Toledo.
24:15 Tom Holland? And the alliance is signed in seven thirty and to seal it, Odo gives Uthman his daughter in marriage.
24:23 Dominic Sandbrook? Can I just stop you right there? So a lot of listeners may find that really interesting because that obviously undermines the idea that this sort of Titanic clash of civilizations and that people are consciously engaged in a clash of civilizations because here you have an alliance between Christian and, in inverted commas, Muslim and a marriage alliance along with that. So there's no sense that they've crossed some kind of tremendous ideological divide in doing that.
24:46 Tom Holland? No, because what matters to both men, Odo and Uthman, is power politics. That's much more important than any sense of a kind of Titanic clash of civilizations. And to begin with, it seems to work. There is stability along the line of the Aquitaine border. Uthman is able to establish himself as independent, but trouble is brewing. The storm clouds of war continue to gather because back in Toledo, the news of this alliance goes down like a cup of cold sick. And unfortunately for both Uthman and Odo, the governor in Toledo, he's a new governor, is exceedingly able and also exceedingly devout. And this is a man called Abd al-Rahman al-Gaffiki. He is from Arabia. He's from the Red Sea. He comes
25:31 Tom Holland? from the heartlands of Islam. He, probably far more than most people in Spain, is completely on top of what is becoming Islam. And he is not prepared to put up with this. So his response is completely devastating. Seven three one, he invades Catalonia, he defeats Uthman, has him killed, captures Uthman's wife, who is the daughter of Odo, and packs her off to Damascus to live in the Caliphate Hareem there. So, you know, that's bad news for Odo and indeed probably for Odo's daughter. And you were saying that there's no real sense of a kind of clash of civilizations going on. While Abd al-Rahman is doing this in Catalonia, Charles Martel is signally not helping the Christian cause because he has
26:15 Tom Holland? crossed the Loire and is taking advantage of Odo's state of despair at the collapse of his alliance by launching an attack on Aquitaine and carting Offloads of loot northwards to the Loire, so that's not helpful at all. Then the following year in spring, Abdou Ramen invades Aquitaine. He sweeps northwards through Gascony, he descends on Bordeaux, he captures it, he sacks it. Odo has been frantically marshalling men to try and resist this attack. He meets the army of Abdou Ramen on the banks of the Gironne beyond Bordeaux. And the result is a completely devastating defeat for Odo. And we have a chronicle that was written by an anonymous Christian priest back in Spain.
26:58 Tom Holland? It's called The Chronicle of 754 by scholars. And it's essentially our main source, our most contemporary source for what's going on. And he records of this battle, that Odo's army was scattered into flight. And only God could know the number of those who died or were slain. So this is terrible for Odo. He survives the battle. But essentially, he must fear that Aquitaine is lost. So he musters what troops have survived the disaster, recruits what more he can from the kind of the outer reaches of his duchy. And then he rides with them northwards to the Loire and crosses into the lands that are ruled by Charles Martel.
27:38 Tom Holland? And he comes to the Duke of the Franks and, you know, his great rival humiliating for him, but he has no choice. You know, and he begs him for assistance. And Charles is still driving a hard bargain. You know, it's not as though he feels, well, we're all Christians together in the face of this terrible threat. You know, he drives a really hard bargain. He demands that Odo submit to him, that he acknowledge him as Odo's superior. And Odo has no choice, so reluctantly he gives his submission. Meanwhile, back in Aquitaine, Abdou Ramen's men, they've won this great victory. And they are keen to profit from it all that they can. So they are spilling out across Aquitaine. They're falling on towns, they're falling on monasteries, they're stripping them bare.
28:22 Tom Holland? They're loading wagons high with loot. And they rumble northwards. You know, the army spilling up the Roman roads that lead towards the Loire. The wagons full of gold and treasure accompanying them. And the further north they go, the closer they come to the lands ruled by the duke and prince of the Franks, Charles Martel. And I think for the emayed forces, there's a definite sense that they're venturing into unknown territory here. You know, it's a long, long way from Toledo, let alone from Africa. They don't know much about Charles Martel. They don't know much about the people that he rules. They don't really have a sense of what might lay ahead. But
29:05 Tom Holland? there is one thing, of course, that they are alert to, and that is the prospect of plunder. And again, in this, they are like the Vikings. And of course, the nearer they head to the Loire, the more they are picking up the rumours of, I mean, not just a wealthy shrine, but a fabulously wealthy shrine, the wealthiest shrine in the whole of Gaul, rich in every kind of treasure.
29:31 Tom Holland? And this shrine, of course, is the shrine of Saint Martin of Tours, the great patron saint of the Merovingian monarchy, but also more generally of the Franks themselves. And there is no way that the Duke of the Franks can possibly allow the invaders, if he can in any way help it, to strip the shrine of Saint Martin bare.
29:57 Dominic Sandbrook? Okay, so what will happen? Will they strip it bare? Will there be a great battle? Who knows? Come back after the break and find out.
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31:50 Dominic Sandbrook? In this year, two comets appeared around the sun, striking great terror into those that saw them. One went before the sun, rising in the morning. The other followed it sinking in the evening, as if foreboding dire calamity for east as well as west. Certainly, one anticipated the day's beginning and the other the nights. So that they might act as a sign that evils threatened mortals at both times. They bore a fiery torch to the north as if to start a fire. They appeared in the month of January and remained for nearly two weeks. At that time, a very serious plague of Saracens plundered the Gauls with miserable slaughter.
32:32 Dominic Sandbrook? So that was the venerable Bede, writing in the ecclesiastical history of the English people. Now Bede, not brilliant at dates, to be fair to him. He said this happened in 729.
32:43 Tom Holland? He's pretty good. He's the guy. Who comes up with our dating system.
32:46 Dominic Sandbrook? He's at least three years out here.
32:47 Tom Holland? Properly.
32:47 Dominic Sandbrook? So he dated the Comets to seven twenty nine, but there wasn't any Saracen invasion of Gornor seven twenty nine. Most scholars think he's got in a muddle and he's actually talking about seven thirty two.
32:59 Tom Holland? Yeah.
32:59 Dominic Sandbrook? Which is a bit odd because he actually claimed that he finished his book a year earlier. So maybe he put this in afterwards.
33:05 Tom Holland? I think that's probably the generally held theory. And if he did that, then it's witness to the fact that his sense that this is an amazing episode. It's something that's worth recording. And also it bears witness to the fact that the news of this great battle that's been fought, this great Saracen invasion has kind of crossed the channel. It's spread up all the way through England up to Northumbria.
33:26 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
33:26 Tom Holland? So this is something that really resonates. And if Bede is writing about this invasion of seven three two, then this is the earliest witness that we have to it. And it is indeed very dramatic. It's not surprising that Bede, who's kind of obviously very attuned to the flow of great events, would have heard of it and been interested in it because we have two great and formidable generals coming up against one another. So Abdal Rahman, the Omayad general, the governor of Spain. I mean, he's already proved himself very, very formidable in battle. He's overthrown Othman, he's defeated Odo. He's now heading northwards towards the line of the Loire.
34:08 Tom Holland? We don't know how large his invasion force is, but it's evidently, you know, I mean, it's large enough to have defeated Othman, to have swatted aside Odo. And it is also much, much better equipped than the Frankish army. I mean, I always remember I had a children's book of history that had an illustration of the Battle of Tours. And the Franks in that were kind of knights on armour. And the Arabs all had, you know, they were kind of loosely, you know, wearing their kind of flowing robes.
34:34 Dominic Sandbrook? They were a saladin in the Ladybird.
34:35 Tom Holland? Yes, exactly. But actually, it's the other way around. It's the Omayad forces that are very much heavier in cavalry than the Franks. And they're also much, much better equipped. So a quote Bernard S. Backrack, whose book on early Carolingian warfare is brilliant on this whole campaign. And he writes that the. Arabs had acquired by conquest the arms manufacturing infrastructure of what had been a large part of the eastern half of the Roman Empire. These production resources were far better developed than those found during the early eighth century throughout the Empire's Roman German successor states in the West. So basically, you know, their kit is loads, loads better. And also, the Amaids, they're just much richer. You know, they've had a century and more of plunder behind them.
35:19 Tom Holland? They can afford better armour, better helmets, better swords than the Franks have. And on top of that, they're also much more technologically advanced. So there's one key technological development that the Franks can't rival. And again, to quote Bakrak, finally, the Muslims had the technology to construct the composite recurve bow, which was made from various layers of bone, horn and wood. These weapons were far superior to the wooden self bows available to the northerners. In addition, the shorter and more powerful recurve bow could be used effectively by mounted troops. And I read that because I don't really know what a recurve bow is.
35:53 Dominic Sandbrook? I was about to say, it's one where the limbs of the bow kind of curve away. So it's a sort of more elaborate curve.
36:00 Tom Holland? Yeah.
36:00 Dominic Sandbrook? So they kind of curl back on themselves, like a horn almost.
36:03 Tom Holland? It's the kind you get in the Arabian Nights, isn't it?
36:05 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, Arabian Night kind of bow. And because of that, because of the extra sort of tension or whatever, you can have a shorter bow. So in other words, it's easy to fire when you're on horseback.
36:13 Tom Holland? And also apparently it can go further than the Frankish bows can.
36:16 Dominic Sandbrook? So it's basically a brilliant bow.
36:17 Tom Holland? It's a great bow, it's a top bow. So basically, you know, this is not a kind of ragtag desert army. This is a very, very formidable force and one that effectively is a kind of worthy successor to the Roman armies.
36:31 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
36:31 Tom Holland? Because it's drawing on those traditions. Now, people who've listened to the first two episodes will remember that the Franks too are drawing on a Roman inheritance. So they were trained to fight in a Roman way.
36:46 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
36:46 Tom Holland? And that's a tradition that's endured for the two centuries since the fall of the Roman Empire in the West. And on top of that, they have Roman military manuals, which we know that they read. So like the Romans, they have an emphasis on infantry. At this point, the Franks do not have the kind of the heavily armoured. Lorikati, they're called, the kind of the armoured horsemen that are the precursors of the Western Knight. They are very, very much focused on fighting on foot. I think in part, although I gather that this is hugely debated by military historians, because they haven't yet adopted the stirrup. The stirrup is just kind of being introduced to the land of the Franks at this point.
37:25 Tom Holland? So Charles would have had horsemen with him, and these were called palatini, so people who are, you know, his elites who surround him in the palace. And this is where the word paladins comes from, which is kind of very King Arthur. Lancelot and Gawain are the paladins of King Arthur. So he does have some of them, but the main focus is on, as I say, on infantry and specifically the Franks fight in a phalanx. So like the Romans had done, very close order, shields locked together. If they are faced by archers, as the Romans had done, they're able to kind of form a testudo, a tortoise. So you put the shields up and over your heads and the arrows just kind of bounce off your shields.
38:05 Tom Holland? And they fight so closely together that there's a Frankish report of a battle that was fought a century before the Battle of Tours. That describes how the slain had nowhere to fall, but stood in their battle lines corpse, supporting corpse, as though they were still alive. So very, very close formation.
38:22 Dominic Sandbrook? So it's a bit like the images of fighting that you get in Bernard Cornwall's books, which are again, not a massively dissimilar period. People packed in a kind of shield wall, stabbing with their swords relentlessly through the gaps in the enemy line.
38:35 Tom Holland? Yeah, the use of the stabbing sword rather than the slashing sword. And I guess people would associate kind of Frankish knights as using a massive, great, heavy slashing sword. But at this point, again, they are using the gladius, as the Romans called it, the kind of the stabbing sword. So they approximate to a Roman legion more than to anything else. And of course, Roman legions were dependent on relentless training. And this seems to have been what Charles had given his troops. So, you know, that breathing space that Odo's defeat of the Arabs before the Wars of Toulouse had brought Charles. He doesn't seem to have wasted it. He seems to have essentially put his troops through their paces, drilling them and drilling them and drilling them. And
39:18 Tom Holland? Even if his men are not as well equipped as the Amaid forces, they are as well trained. And I think that this is what Charles is relying on to defeat them. So those are the armies. What about the strategy of the two commanders? So Abdul Rahman's strategy is very plain. He wants to sack the shrine of Saint Martin. And there are various reasons why he would be particularly keen to do that. The obvious one is loads of his troops are following him in the expectation of loot. Yeah. Most of them, I suspect, are not motivated by a passionate commitment to the teachings of the Quran. They want to get as rich as they possibly can. Of course. And Saint Martin's shrine promises them all kinds of goodies.
40:02 Tom Holland? I think Abdul Rahman recognizes the kind of significance to Frankish prestige of the shrine of Saint Martin. If he can sack it, you know, it'll be a real body blow to the prestige of Charles Martel and his regime. And I think, you know, we've said Abdul Rahman, you know, he comes from the heartlands of Islam. He definitely has a kind of a doctrinal motivation. He wants to strip the shrine of Saint Martin bare, not just because it's full of treasure, but because as he sees it, it's full of kind of idols. He wants to humble the pride of the cross worshippers into the dust. Yeah. But to do that, to reach the shrine of Saint Martin, you know, he's going to have to wipe out the army of the Franks, Charles's army.
40:47 Tom Holland? And the reason for that is that Charles's strategy essentially is to block his access to Tor and force him to attempt a decisive battle. And this for Abdul Rahman is going to be a real challenge because even though his men are superior in kit and in military technology, the Franks, as we've said, are at least as well trained and they're also probably numerically superior. And that's because Charles's forces have been swelled by, you know, the troops that Odo has brought with him from Aquitaine. And of course, you know, they are absolutely resolute in their determination to defend Saint Martin's shrine, just as Abdul Rahman wants to strip it because it's
41:28 Tom Holland? So precious to the Franks. Obviously, for that reason, the Franks are determined to defend and protect it. Charles is confident that this is potentially winning strategy because he can rely on his men to hold their ground, not to break, not to flee, but also should the Arabs be defeated, not to run after them, you know, which would potentially then open them up to attack by the Arab cavalry. So this strategy effectively means the late autumn of seven, three, two, that a battle is going to be inevitable. Charles is going to block the road to Tor. Abdul Rahman is going to have to engage him if he wants to break through. And the reason for that, he can't really retreat because that would, you know, be very damaging to his prestige.
42:13 Tom Holland? And also if he retreats, there's a risk to his baggage train with all that kind of gold and stuff. So effectively, there is no choice but to engage. So there's essentially a kind of week of shadow boxing. And then finally, the moment comes, the Arabs are on the Roman road. They see the Franks lined up ahead of them. There is no choice now but to engage in battle. And again, the best account of what happens is this Chronicle of seven fifty four. And the Christian priest writing that, he describes the Frankish battle line in incredibly memorable way. The Northerners held their position like a glacier from the frozen north. I mean, amazing description.
42:57 Dominic Sandbrook? Kind of impassable, immovable, indomitable.
43:00 Tom Holland? But also icy cold and dangerous. He describes how the stabbing swords of the Franks, the Gladi, inflict terrible damage on the invaders. And among the dead is Abdul Rahman himself. So again, the Chronicle of seven fifty four. The Australians, so that's the Franks, with a terrible strength in their limbs and an iron hand throughout the hard fight, killed him when they found him. And as evening comes, it's clear that the victory is the Franks. But what is perhaps the most impressive witness to their discipline is that they hold their line. I mean, as I said, it's the only way that they could have lost at this point would be if they'd kind of go, woo, we've won, brilliant, and piled off. They don't. They hold their positions and then they retreat to their camp.
43:45 Tom Holland? Pretty confident that the next day they're going to have to fight again, that the battle will continue.
43:49 Dominic Sandbrook? Right.
43:50 Tom Holland? And I'll describe what then happens and what they find when they wake up the day after this first engagement by quoting the Chronicle of 754. So this priest writes, "Rising from their sleeping bags at dawn, the Europeans," and it's such an interesting use of that. I mean, I think it's the first use of that phrase in any medieval chronicle. "The Europeans beheld the tents and camps of the Arabs' canopies located and ordered as they had been. Not knowing that they were all empty and supposing that the Saracen's phalanxes were prepared for battle within, they sent scouts and found that all the Ismailites' columns had escaped," so that's the Arab columns, "and that all of them were secretly fleeing home, passing the night in tight formation.
44:32 Tom Holland? The Europeans were anxious lest they might have concealed themselves on a hidden path as a stratagem. Stunned in every way, they hunted the surrounding area in vain. Making no further effort to find the aforesaid people, they returned to their own countries, rejoicing with their booty and the evenly divided spoils."
44:49 Dominic Sandbrook? So that's it. The invaders, the raiders, have been beaten off and they've vanished with their stuff because they don't want to lose their, what plunder they've already gained.
44:59 Tom Holland? They leave some of it behind and this is what the Franks pick up.
45:01 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
45:01 Tom Holland? But the Franks don't pursue them. I mean, that's what's striking. They let them go.
45:05 Dominic Sandbrook? Right.
45:06 Tom Holland? And it's indisputably for them a great victory.
45:09 Dominic Sandbrook? St Martin is safe.
45:10 Tom Holland? St Martin is safe and his shrine will never be threatened again. But this leaves open the question that we began this episode with.
45:17 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
45:18 Tom Holland? What is the significance of this battle?
45:21 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
45:21 Tom Holland? You know, is it world historical in its moment?
45:24 Dominic Sandbrook? Mm hmm.
45:24 Tom Holland? And I guess the first question is, what do we make of this attack that the Amed forces have launched on the Loire? Is it a raid? Is it a manoeuvre in a kind of factional battle between assorted Christian and Muslim warlords? Is it a Muslim attempt to humble a Christian shrine? I reckon the answer to that is that it's all of those.
45:48 Dominic Sandbrook? Mm hmm.
45:48 Tom Holland? I mean, they're not mutually exclusive. You know, the desire for loot, the ambition that... Abdurrahman had to punish the treachery of Uthman and to kind of humble Odo into the dust. His zeal for Islam, I mean, all of these are clearly part of the mix of motivations, I think, that are encouraging him.
46:06 Dominic Sandbrook? But what it isn't is a long planned, cold blooded, coordinated, massive invasion.
46:13 Tom Holland? No.
46:13 Dominic Sandbrook? It's not that.
46:14 Tom Holland? It isn't, but I think that doesn't mean that it's not significant.
46:17 Dominic Sandbrook? Mm hmm.
46:18 Tom Holland? Let's do a counterfactual. Abdurrahman wins.
46:21 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
46:21 Tom Holland? Charles Martel is killed. Odo is killed. They march on the shrine of Saint Martin. They strip it bare and then they cart all the treasure back. And what happens next? You know, we can never be sure in any of these situations. You know, there are so many kind of intangibles. But the balance of probability would be that Aquitaine would definitely fall to the Amaid forces. I mean, if Odo is dead, if his men have been wiped out, there's no real prospect of the Amaid forces not occupying it. And kind of making it a forward base beyond the Pyrenees.
46:58 Dominic Sandbrook? The one thing I would say is if they have that, they have to keep supplying it with men and whatnot from beyond the Pyrenees. Which does look like a pretty significant natural barrier through most of history between France and Spain.
47:09 Tom Holland? They do, but then the Straits of Gibraltar are also
47:12 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
47:12 Tom Holland? a pretty significant barrier and they've managed to take Spain. And I think part of the reason for that is that success attracts followers. And there would undoubtedly have been people in Aquitaine who would have wanted to side with the winners. And that would then have provided a kind of reserve of manpower that the Amaid occupiers could have drawn on. And if they do that, then the consequences of that for Southern Gaul are pretty clear. I mean, Southern Gaul will become part of the Amaid caliphate. And that in turn, I think, would have put Italy in peril. And Italy, of course, is the home of the papacy in Rome. And the Byzantine forces there are, you know, under attack.
47:56 Dominic Sandbrook? You've made a massive leap in the course of a sentence from they'd probably got Aquitaine to suddenly Italy has fallen as well. Like your dominoes are falling very quickly.
48:05 Tom Holland? Well, if Southern Gaul falls, then the Franks can't come to the rescue of the Papacy. And as we will see in our next episode, essentially, in this century, the Papacy is dependent for its political survival on Frankish support. So I think it's improbable that the Papacy that Rome would have held out against Muslim domination had Tor gone the other way. And the implications of that would have been pretty significant. I mean, what about the implications for the independent Frankish kingdom? I mean, it's got huge reserves of manpower. It could easily have rallied, it could have held out, it could have launched a reconquest of the south. That, after all, is what, you know, in the long run, the Spanish Christians do over the course of the Middle Ages.
48:49 Tom Holland? But I think that there are two episodes from early medieval history that suggest that it would have been a challenge, it would have been difficult for the Franks to do that. And the first, of course, is what we've just been talking about, the defeat of the Visigoths. Because if you say, you know, the attack on Tor was just a raid. Well, essentially, the invasion across the Straits of Gibraltar into Spain was just a raid. But because the invaders won this massive battle and killed the Visigothic king, within a decade, pretty much the whole of Spain had fallen into their lap. And, you know, with Aquitaine as a base, I think the potential for a kind of campaigns of jihad against the Franks in the north would have been considerable, which isn't to say that the same thing would have happened. But it might have done, we don't know.
49:30 Tom Holland? But the other event that I think, you know, had the Shrine of St Martin been sacked. There is then an obvious parallel later in the century, which you alluded to right at the beginning of this episode. And that's what the Vikings do when they launch their campaigns against particularly England. And that begins with the sack of a famous shrine, the Shrine of St Cuthbert on Holy Island, the island of Lindisfarne. And what that demonstrates is that to loot a shrine that has a kind of a special holiness is never just to loot it. Because As well as the financial loss, there is also the shock that it delivers to people
50:10 Tom Holland? for whom this shrine is a kind of central part of their spiritual identity. So the sack of the Shrine of St Cuthbert on Lindisfarne sends shockwaves not just across Britain, but across the whole of Europe. And I think it, you know, it gives a pretty devastating blow to Northumbria morale and the Kingdom of Northumbria falls to pieces fairly soon afterwards. And I think that the sack of the Shrine of St Martin would have had probably an even greater impact. St Martin is the great patron of Frankish royalty, but by the eighth century, it's become much more than that. So St Martin, you know, he's the first, he's the most celebrated of all Gaul's monks, of all Gaul's holy men.
50:52 Tom Holland? And he has become the emblem of a kind of common identity that has joined Franks and Romans. They all share a kind of common devotion to this saint. And so you could say that the sack of St Martin's shrine would have been a blow not just to Frankish prestige, but to the very spiritual identity of, you know, this emergent Frankish nation. And of course, at the same time, it would have offered evidence for those with eyes to see of the truth of the message that is being proclaimed by the invaders. And it's absolutely true that this is not kind of at the forefront of the Amaid campaign.
51:35 Tom Holland? It's not particularly what they are proclaiming. And therefore, very few people at the point where the Battle of Tours is being fought really have a sense of anything approximating to Islam. So this is why it's not touted by contemporary chroniclers as, you know, a great clash of civilizations or anything like that. Yeah. So Bede, who we've referenced, this, you know, the great scholar and historian writing in his monastery up in Northumbria, he has only the vaguer sense of who the Saracens, as he calls them, you know, vaguer sense of who they are. He thinks that they're pagans, that they're worshippers of the morning star. There are others who are closer to them who think of them essentially as Christian heretics.
52:15 Dominic Sandbrook? Which is so common. That's what Christians think of them in the early years of Islam, isn't it?
52:18 Tom Holland? Right, and I think right the way through to the Middle Ages. I mean, Dante is still kind of, you know, that's still how he's framing them. I mean, they don't really have a sense of Islam as a religion. I mean, that's a much later kind of conceptualisation. And maybe because of that, maybe because Islam in some ways is very close to Christianity. You know, Jesus is in the Quran, Virgin Mary's in Quran. Both Christianity and Islam have a respect for the Hebrew prophets. That is a big difference, I think, between the Muslim invaders of Spain and Gaul and the Vikings. Because there are doubtless people in England who do end up abandoning their Christianity and turning to the worship of the Viking gods.
52:57 Tom Holland? But it's not a sophisticated framework of belief and the kind of structures of imperialism that the Vikings bring are, you know, it's basically kind of grab it and settle. And that's at the limit of it. But the evidence of Muslim Spain shows that Islam is very, very different, that it has a very sophisticated relationship to Christianity. It has a framework for subordinating Christians and Jews and kind of, you know, putting them within an empire. The Quran mandates how they should be taxed, how they should be subordinated, all these kind of things. It's a programme for imperial rule and that is an obvious point of differentiation between the Vikings and the Arabs.
53:34 Dominic Sandbrook? Right.
53:35 Tom Holland? And that's why Spain, it's not just that it is ruled by Muslims. It becomes Muslim over the course of the centuries that follow its conquest. And I think you could suppose the Muslims hold on to southern Gaul. You could see the same process happening there. You know, that would have pretty seismic implications for the future course of medieval history. And I think ultimately, to think that the annihilation of Charles Martel's army has no real significance, that it's just a raid, that it's, you know, nothing very important. And I think ultimately that to suppose that had Charles Martel lost the battle, had he died, had his troops been wiped out, had the shrine of St Martin been
54:16 Tom Holland? attacked, that it was just a raid. I think that to kind of believe that, it's effectively to argue that Islam and Christianity and specifically- The distinctive form of Christianity that emerges in Western Europe in the centuries after the Battle of Tours, that they're essentially the same, that there's no real difference between them. It doesn't really matter if you're ruled by Christians or by Muslims. And I just don't think that's true. I think that there is a very, very profound difference between the two ways of seeing the world. And so therefore I think that the Battle of Tours is significant. I mean, I don't think it's a kind of peripheral clash. I think it is momentous, perhaps not quite as momentous as Gibbon suggested, but pretty important.
54:58 Tom Holland? And Charles Martel's victory in that sense is pretty seismic in the long run. But it's seismic also in the short term because it has very important implications for the future of the Frankish Kingdom and for his own dynasty.
55:14 Dominic Sandbrook? Are there not some other reasons why you could question the idea about the momentousness of this battle? So for example, the Muyad Chronicles often mention big defeats. So they mention defeats in the early stages of the reconquista, for example. But they never mention this at all. Like it doesn't even feature. They treat it as a raid that just, you know, just one raid among many and beaten back. I looked this up. There were more raids in seven thirty four. There was a raid in seven thirty six. And there was actually, some people think, an even bigger raid, even bigger invasion in seven thirty nine, when the Muyads got to Burgundy, only to be beaten back by the Franks. So in other words, this was not the end of their incursions. So in that sense, it's not really a turning point. It doesn't change anything because they just keep coming.
55:57 Tom Holland? I think it is for reasons that we'll look at in the next episode because it means it's not just the Franks have won, Charles Martel has won. The kind of the glory of his victory kind of resonates to his prestige. And as we will see, he is now in a position not just to defend his kingdom against the invaders, but to go on the offensive. And his son in turn will be able to do that. And his grandson, who is Charlemagne, will definitely be able to do that.
56:23 Dominic Sandbrook? But there's one other thing which is even more important, which I think is arguably much more important than the Battle of Tours. And that's in seven forty, a huge revolt breaks out in what's now Morocco, Great Berber Revolt. And that basically cuts off. Umayyad Spain from the sort of Arab heartland. It means that the age of raiding kind of comes to an end because they can't keep raising all the, you know, there's so much internal dissension and the Imaeus can't keep raising all these Berber troops. So that would seem to undermine the idea that, oh, they get Aquitaine, then they get this, then they get this, then they get this. Because actually they've got so many problems in their own kind of backyard, as it were, that they were actually never going to be able to do all that because of the massive ructions going on in North Africa.
57:04 Tom Holland? No, I don't think so because what also then happens after that is that, and we've did this in our history of Baghdad, is that the Imaeus are overthrown by the Abbasids. But one of the Imaeus is able to get to Spain where he establishes himself as its ruler and in the long term as its caliph. And this is the great golden age of Imayyad Spain. And it's ferociously and impressively formidable. It's a very potent military power and it's a very great kind of civilizational power. And this is the period when you see large numbers of Christian Spaniards converting to Islam.
57:41 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
57:41 Tom Holland? Because, you know, it has this kind of great force of appeal. It's culturally, militarily, politically more appealing than Christianity, which seems a kind of defeated and superseded way of seeing the world, way of explaining man's relationship to God. And had that realm that the Imaeus take over in the wake of the Abbasid revolution, had that extended to southern Gaul, had it extended to northern Italy, then, you know, that would have been an even larger power base for the Imayyad caliphate.
58:15 Dominic Sandbrook? All right. Well, if people want to listen to that, they've got an episode on Imayyad Spain, which I greatly recommend. But for the time being, we're going to be going on with the story of the Franks, right, Tom? So what's coming up next?
58:25 Tom Holland? So coming up next, it's the son of Charles Martel and his relationship with the papacy, which is again a development of seismic impact for the future history of Europe. And therefore, in the long run, the world. And this man, Pippin, who overthrows the Meroe. Injuns, makes himself king. He is the father of a much greater and more famous king, Charlemagne. And so at the end of our next episode, Charlemagne will be entering the story.
58:57 Dominic Sandbrook? Brilliant. So next up is our Charlemagne trilogy, one of the most epic stories we've ever done on The Rest Is History. Now, the good news, if you're a member of The Rest Is History Club, is that you should have all three parts of that trilogy right now. Now, if you're not a member of the club and you'd like to get your hands on them, all you need to do is head to therestishistory.com and sign up and you can have that Charlemagne trilogy straight away. If not, I'm afraid you'll just have to wait. See you then. Bye bye.
59:22 Tom Holland? Bye bye.
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