The WNBA Is On a Winning Streak. Is It Sustainable?

Kara sits down with New York Liberty owner Clara Wu Tsai to talk about betting big on the WNBA and why the momentum for women’s sports isn’t slowing down. Clara explains why she saw the Liberty as a distressed asset worth rebuilding and how investments in players, facilities and visibility helped fuel a turnaround. She breaks down what’s driving the WNBA’s growth, from the Caitlin Clark effect to media deals, and why, despite surging popularity, the league is still undervalued. They also get into league expansion, the new collective bargaining agreement and the economics behind it all. Plus: Clara’s Human Performance Alliance and her push to close the data gap in women’s sports science. This episode was taped live at the CAA World Congress of Sports presented by Sports Business Journal. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  You don't like being talked about? Do you? I don't care. I care less. I do. But I like troll them back and I'm excellent at it. And they lose every time. So I'm not a sports person, but I'm very competitive.

• 0:26Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Clara Wu Tsai, owner of the WNBA's New York Liberty and the NBA's Brooklyn Nets. Clara and her husband, Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai, purchased the Liberty in 2019 during a low point for the franchise. Its previous owner, James Dolan, had put the team up for sale in 2017 and moved it from Madison Square Garden to a small arena in Westchester County, New York. But Clara made a big bet on the New York Liberty and the WNBA. She moved the team to the Barclays Center in Brooklyn, invested in player facilities, fan experiences, and recruited top talent, which kicked off a major turnaround and coincided

• 1:10Kara Swisher?

  with a surge in popularity for the WNBA. And to cap it off, the Liberty won the league championship in 2024. In addition to turning the Liberty into a winning franchise, Clara's work across business and philanthropy led to the creation of the Wu Tsai Human Performance Alliance, a six-university research initiative that studies peak human performance and aims to close the data gap in women's sports science. I really enjoy talking to Clara. I've met her a long time ago. I have been covering Alibaba for many years. And she's one of the smartest, business-focused owners I have seen, also is very open-minded of new things. But she doesn't get stuck in the data. She really does love the sport and just one of these very smart people that I think we

• 1:53Kara Swisher?

  should hear more from, and I wish more owners were like her. So let's get into my conversation with Clara. I interviewed her last week at the CAA World Congress of Sports, presented by Sports Business Journal. Our expert question today comes from WNBA All-Star Sue Bird. She hosts the Vox Media Podcast, Bird's Eye View, and A Touch More. This was a fun and important conversation. Clara is very smart. You should be listening to her, all you different team owners, so stick around.

• 2:36Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more. And listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 3:19Speaker 02

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• 4:38Kara Swisher?

  Clara, gracias por unirse a mi en el CAA World Congress of Sports, presentado por Sports Business Journal, para una taping en vivo de "On". Bienvenido Clara.

• 4:49Kara Swisher?

  Así que, vamos a empezar con la libertad de New York. Hace ocho años, la libertad de New York era una franchise difícil. Lo llamaste un activo estresado y la WNBA no estaba tan popular como es hoy. Tú y tu esposo, Ali Baba cofundador de Joe Tsai, compraron la libertad en 2019 y comenzaron un gran cambio. ¿Qué viste que la hiciera una inversión digna cuando la estabas viendo? Puedes invertir en cualquier cosa.

• 5:14Speaker 04

  Bueno, cuando compramos al equipo, ya finalizamos la compra de los Nets de Brooklyn y de Barclays Center. Y eso fue en 2019. Y en 2017, los propietarios anteriores de la libertad habían puesto el equipo a la venta y en 2018 lo habían mudado a los suburbs, desde Madison Square Garden en Westchester. Así que la Liga estaba desesperadamente buscando a alguien para comprar el equipo y nos pidió que lo miráramos. Y, ya sabes, todos los números, estaban perdiendo dinero, todos los números iban en la dirección equivocada. Había perdido mucho.

• 5:47Kara Swisher?

  Una pequeña arena.

• 5:49Speaker 04

  Y así que, ya sabes, fue, incluso, quiero decir en primer lugar que incluso que parece genial a la retrospectiva, fue bastante radical en el momento de comprar el equipo, ¿verdad? Así que, pero fuimos los compradores lógicos porque poseíamos Barclays Center. Y fue, es vergonzoso, es un equipo importante y un mercado importante y estas mujeres deberían estar jugando en una arena de clase mundial. Así que fuimos los compradores naturales. Así que cuando lo miramos, ya sabes, hubo algunos fundamentos que parecían interesantes, pero el negocio todavía estaba mal. Pero vimos que eran las mejores jugadoras de baloncesto en el mundo, eran olimpiadas y jugábamos en el mejor mercado de medios, el mejor mercado de televisión en el mundo y en una ciudad que ama el baloncesto. Así que pensamos, está bien.

• 6:31Speaker 04

  Those fundamentals seemed pretty interesting. Plus, you know, the history of the Liberty, it was one of the original founding teams.

• 6:36Kara Swisher?

  Sure was, yeah.

• 6:37Speaker 04

  And it did go to the finals four times in the first six years of the league.

• 6:41Kara Swisher?

  It was a successful team.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  It was a successful team, so it was a storied franchise. So those things there, you know, the thought was, okay, well, let, maybe we can reinvest, reinvigorate the franchise, bring the old fans back, find some new ones. That was the, that was the vision.

• 6:54Kara Swisher?

  What was your worry? What was your worry? Like, what do I need this for, kind of thing?

• 6:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, the worry was it was going to take a lot of time. We knew we would lose some money. And, you know, in the first days, we had 2,000 people in an arena that sits 18,000. And the question was just how long were we going to have to live with 2,000 people in the arena?

• 7:14Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:14Speaker 04

  I have to say, you know, we, yes, we invested mightily into the franchise. You know, we improved facilities in all aspects of the player experience. We strengthened management. And we tried to make it a destination for free agents. And, you know, pre-Kaitlyn Clark, we had already seen a very significant increase in all of our metrics.

• 7:32Kara Swisher?

  In the metrics, right.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  But there's no doubt that when Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and that Clark came in, you know, they brought a massive new audience as well. So the league really grew a lot in the last five years.

• 7:44Kara Swisher?

  So the success of the New York Liberty coincided with this wider surge of popularity for the WNBA. Last year, regular season games averaged 1.3 million viewers on ESPN, the same as the NBA averaged on the network in 2024 and 25. What do you think is driving the surge in interest in women's sports more broadly?

• 8:05Speaker 04

  I think that the competition on the court. I think it's really good basketball. I think the women play with incredible spirit and grit, and it's very physical. So I just, I think it starts with the quality of the competition. And people, people want to see that. I think also just more women who played sports, you know, when Title IX happened, like, those women started to play sports, and now they're out, they're consumers, and they want to watch women's sports. And...

• 8:36Kara Swisher?

  Because they themselves were athletes.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  Because they themselves, yeah. I think maybe for a lot of women, they see themselves reflected in it and they view it as more than basketball. But a lot of men come to our games as well. So I can't really say that just one.

• 8:51Kara Swisher?

  You want to have a broader group of people coming to it. So every episode, we have an expert question. I'm going to have yours played right now.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  Hey, I am Sue Bird, former WNBA player and fellow Vox Media podcaster. What's up, Kara? The big question that I would like to ask Clara Wu Sai is Clara, you have been ahead of the curve in investing in women's sports. So what is one bet you're making now about the future of the WNBA that most people aren't seeing yet? And if I could sneak another one in, which I don't think is allowed, but what is the most fun part about being an owner? Like the thing that no one tells you about, but you secretly love?

• 9:34Speaker 04

  Okay. The first question, I would say, you know, what we're doing is just continuing to invest. There's no ceiling yet on how great the play on the court can be. And I think we need to keep raising the standards of what we're providing to the players. We're building a huge practice facility, right? An 80,000 square foot practice facility in Greenpoint. And, you know, it's not just the hardware, but the software going in there, right? The staffing and the technology and the programming and all of the community elements. You know, my goal is to build an enduring franchise. Like, we want to build something with sustained excellence that's going to stand the test of time.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  And I think making these, all the investments that we're making are really about that. You know, making sure that...

• 10:22Kara Swisher?

  What is the Greenpoint facility? How much are you spending there?

• 10:26Speaker 04

  75 million. And it's huge and it's going to have these practice courts. It's going to have a lot of private spaces for the players. And there's going to be community basketball courts. There's going to be this whole coffee shop, a whole area where we can sell merch because all of our fans love merch. And it's just another way for the community to have a touch point with the players. And we're, you know, a lot of women's sports are very community oriented.

• 10:53Kara Swisher?

  So what's the thing you hate, too?

• 10:56Speaker 04

  I try to stay off X and all those things.

• 10:58Kara Swisher?

  Good idea.

• 10:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. But I guess, because there's always trolls who just want to say something, but then you look and you see, oh, they only have one follower, who cares?

• 11:05Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  But, you know.

• 11:06Kara Swisher?

  It's also a bit of a Nazi porn bar, but go ahead.

• 11:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, I mean, I think that, the thing is with sports ownership is you become, you know, you're very public and suddenly you become someone that everybody feels like they can talk about. The fun part...

• 11:20Kara Swisher?

  You don't like being talked about?

• 11:23Speaker 04

  Do you?

• 11:24Kara Swisher?

  I don't care.

• 11:25Speaker 04

  I care less.

• 11:27Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I do. But I like troll them back and I'm excellent at it and they lose every time, so. I'm not a sports person, but I'm very competitive.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  You know, I don't have an account. I lurk. I'm a lurker.

• 11:36Kara Swisher?

  I'm not on Twitter. I do think it's a Nazi porn bar, but I enjoy the back and forth.

• 11:40Speaker 04

  But what I love, I mean, I love it all, but see, I love basketball.

• 11:43Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 04

  So, I just love going to the games and I love seeing...

• 11:47Kara Swisher?

  And you're a sports person yourself.

• 11:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. I love sports, I love basketball, so the best part is being able to go to games, bring my friends, be there with family. There's also nothing better than winning a championship, by the way.

• 11:59Kara Swisher?

  Right. That might have been nice, right? You like that?

• 12:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:01Kara Swisher?

  Okay, good. So, let's get into some of the recent news around the WNBA, including how the league operates and its recent growth. First of all, there's the so-called Katelyn Clark effect. It obviously helped kickstart the surge in interest to women's basketball. Talk about the business model, depending on the popularity of few stars like Katelyn Clark, Angel Reese, Asia Wilson. I mean, this is not different from the NBA.

• 12:24Speaker 04

  No, it's a star-driven league.

• 12:26Kara Swisher?

  So, talk a little bit about that. And how much does the business model depend on it? Not just Katelyn, but the other players, too?

• 12:32Speaker 04

  The business model depends on a great media deal. When you have media and broadcasting, you have it on multi-platforms, you have consistent viewing, premium slots, that's essential because that will help you grow your fan base. So, the fact that we have this media deal, that's a new floor and it's excellent for the growth of the league. And that's what makes us confident in our ability to draw more fans. And, you know, what's the importance of someone like a star? Very important. All sports are star-driven leagues. And so, what you want to make sure is that you're promoting your stars, you're showcasing your stars, and you want to make sure that you have a good pipeline of talent coming up. And that's the great thing about the popularity of the NCAA Women's College Basketball Tournament, which is...

• 13:18Speaker 04

  Also very steady. I mean, I think the last game, 9.9 people tuned into the championship game. And six of those players from UCLA who are on that winning team got drafted into the league and they already have social media following. Some of them have great NIL deals. So they already come in with businesses who could be potential sponsors. You know, the incredible depth of talent that not only from the college, but also from overseas. They're the engine for the future and that's very important. So being able to promote them is essential.

• 13:49Kara Swisher?

  It's interesting with the Caitlin Clark effect. I'm like, have you ever heard of Martina Navratilova and Chris Everett together? I mean, during that time? Or where any, not just women's, whereas all sports seems to be centered around a star or stars or a character driven kind of thing where they face off against each other, they become friends, they're sort of frenemies.

• 14:09Speaker 04

  Those rivalries, right? Like the whole Magic and Bird, they were rivals in college.

• 14:13Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  And then they got drafted together and started, had that rivalry against Celtics and Lakers and sort of we did the same thing almost in the same timeframe.

• 14:20Kara Swisher?

  Right. And it doesn't have to be heated rivalry, for example.

• 14:23Speaker 04

  No.

• 14:24Kara Swisher?

  Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is.

• 14:28Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 14:42Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news, and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace. Three times a week, hosts Kai Wright and Carter Sherman bring their expertise together to showcase different and engaging perspectives regarding the world today. They will use their collective knowledge to discuss the news, international affairs,

• 15:25Kara Swisher?

  climate, culture, sports, lifestyle, fashion, and wellness. Plus, The Guardian wants to emphasize they're not billionaire-owned, meaning they're free to report the whole picture without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts, or watch on YouTube starting May 13.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Ripple has been powering modern finance for a decade. We're leading the charge to bridge the gap between existing financial systems and the future of finance. You can have it all: legacy, stability, and digital innovation. Systems that work with your other systems. Because with the right partner, the question isn't crypto or traditional finance, the question is simply, why choose? A new standard of modern finance. It's happening with Ripple. For informational purposes only, availability of products can vary and may be provided by different Ripple entities.

• 16:16Kara Swisher?

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• 17:01Kara Swisher?

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• 17:24Kara Swisher?

  All right, so the WNBA just held a 2026 draft ahead of the 30th season tip-off next month. That comes on the heels of a deal on the collective bargaining agreement that's given players a nearly 400% salary increase, biggest increase in the history of U.S. professional sports. Took a long time to get there. You were talking about it backstage. Things obviously got very heated at times. Talk a little bit about this. It's a tiring thing to do these CBAs.

• 17:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, they're never pleasant, but the outcome was phenomenal. I'm really happy with the outcome. Every player is getting a dramatic increase in salary and... You know, for the owners, we're thrilled, you know, we have certainty, we have a season. But I think, you know, the numbers are phenomenal. I will say some of them here because it's an incredible growth. And so the salary cap has gone from 1.4 to 7 million and with room to get to almost 11 million when the term ends. The highest paid player is going to go from 240,000 to 1.4 million. And the average salary is going to about 600,000.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  And I'm glad we did this because actually the league needed to have a bit of a reset. Because we keep talking about Caitlin, but Caitlin brought, you know, a massive new audience to the league, but she was making 76,000 dollars. And so, you know, now that is going to get immediately corrected and she'll be making 500,000. So, all in all, it's really great that the players got a raise because they deserve it.

• 18:54Kara Swisher?

  So, talk about the tension. What were the difficulties?

• 18:57Speaker 04

  But I also want to mention that actually what's even more important though, besides the salary raise, is that we changed the economic model so that there's revenue sharing with the players. So, this is really important because now there's, you know, players share on the upside of the league, so there's more incentive for us to work together to grow the business. So, I really want to point out those two things. One, they got a raise. Second is, we're now moving to a more collaborative model. And that's going to be really important. Tension?

• 19:21Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, what was the difficulty of coming through?

• 19:24Speaker 04

  Well, there was tension, but every collective bargaining negotiation is unpleasant by nature. I think this one had its fair share of drama. I mean, there were missed deadlines and all of it was also very well-reported. So, you know, is there anything new to report? I think it took a long time because we were negotiating an entirely new economic model. But, you know, if you ask me, did I, you know, did I think that we might have had a work stoppage? I mean, I, you know, there was a lot of tension. I think... Both sides knew what was at stake. There was so much momentum that we had built in the league that it wouldn't have been good for owners or players to have a work stoppage. You know, I think the stress was really more around the edges, kind of like preseason,

• 20:07Speaker 04

  training camp deadlines, just the compressed ramp up to the season. That's what was a little bit stressful.

• 20:12Kara Swisher?

  Which is the point.

• 20:13Speaker 04

  And that did happen.

• 20:14Kara Swisher?

  Right. When you think about things you'd like to see more of, is there something that was left on the table you wish the owners had gotten, or the players, or?

• 20:22Speaker 04

  I'm really happy we have a collaborative model and that we're incentivized to work together because I think the alignment is essential.

• 20:28Kara Swisher?

  Between players?

• 20:30Speaker 04

  Players and owners.

• 20:31Kara Swisher?

  Players and owners, yeah. Which is hard for the old economics of it, which is, I'm paying you, run, or throw the ball, or something.

• 20:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 20:41Kara Swisher?

  Do you think that is going to be replicated elsewhere around the sports world?

• 20:44Speaker 04

  I think so. I do.

• 20:46Kara Swisher?

  Talk about why that's important. I mean, it's happening in media now, it's kind of a deal I have. Or talk about how, because one of the things that I recall, saying I have no incentive to do anything else to help you make more money, because, but how could that articulate itself in sports?

• 21:02Speaker 04

  Well, first of all, it is, the NBA has a bit of that model, so it's already sort of standard for some leagues. And so I think this is going to be a precedent for other major professional women's sports leagues. And you know, the only one that's close to us in size is the NWSL. So I can see, you know, their unions taking some notes from this.

• 21:25Kara Swisher?

  So the WNBA league ownership is divided. The NBA owns 42%, team owners own 42%, and outside investors own the remaining 16. Explain how the ownership of the league makes internal decisions when it comes to things like CBA or expanding the league, because you're dealing with a lot of stakeholders.

• 21:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:44Kara Swisher?

  And obviously, not everyone is going to see eye to eye.

• 21:46Speaker 04

  Right.

• 21:48Speaker 04

  Well, that's a big question. I think the way we work with the NBA is it's a collaborative kind of relationship, but the WNBA makes its own decisions, but in consultation, because we do use some of the infrastructure of the NBA. But certainly, and as the WNBA gets more self-sustaining on its own, it's natural, of course, that it's going to have more independence. But in the early days, the NBA was essential to the survival of this league. I mean, it really sustained it and subsidized it for a long time. And I still think that there are some advantages of being tied to the NBA. This media deal, like we did it together, and I think that it also, you know, when you have, we play in the summer, the NBA plays in the winter, and you can offer a year-round

• 22:32Speaker 04

  package to a media partner. I mean, there's a lot of strengths, right, in having a united front together. You know, we also have some other shareholders, and you know, something like that, I think it's important to say that not that long ago, this league was really struggling, and it needed outside capital to grow. And so when you need capital and you want someone to share that risk, it means you have to share the upside when that happens.

• 22:59Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 23:00Speaker 04

  So that's a trade-off that every league that's growing has to think about. And in our case, the NBA is, you know, really created and sustained the league and was a big part of where we are today. And the outside capital and providers also provided us capital that we needed to grow. And is another structure possible? I mean, I think the question really is thinking about that if you were going to change your structure, you would have to buy people out at market value, and the market value has increased significantly.

• 23:30Kara Swisher?

  Has increased. Do you see that happening, or is it?

• 23:33Speaker 04

  I think there's discussions. You know, we had a lot of things to get done before we could have that discussion, like the CBA.

• 23:39Kara Swisher?

  Right, the CBA, which is true. But also, the WNBA Board of Governors recently approved expansion teams in Detroit, Cleveland, and Philadelphia. In a post on that website, X, sports writer and podcast host Bill Simmons called the move, quote, "staggeringly stupid and an unapologetic money grab that will immediately make the league worse," end quote.

• 23:57Speaker 04

  I don't see that at all.

• 23:59Kara Swisher?

  Okay. Some critics argue expansion dilutes the talent. Explain the strategy, and why is Bill Simmons wrong? And by the way, Bill Simmons sometimes is wrong, but never in doubt, so.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  I think expansion is...

• 24:13Speaker 04

  Really good for the league. I think that it's new markets, it's more games, it's more fans, it's more content, and ultimately, it's going to increase media value, and it's going to allow us to have better media packages. And that's really important for this league. We need to grow the fan base. And I don't really worry about diluting the talent, because those of you who follow the WNBA know that so many people that go to training camp or who get drafted even, like, are cut from the team before the first game starts. And so, you know, we actually need to have-

• 24:46Kara Swisher?

  You think there's a pipeline of talent?

• 24:48Speaker 04

  There is a pipeline of talent.

• 24:49Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. Take his side, what would be the best argument against expanding even more? And these are terrific cities, and these are sports cities, by the way.

• 24:58Speaker 04

  And also, I mean, the only thing is if they wouldn't invest, and they didn't actually market the stars and do everything that you needed, or if he felt that the fans weren't there. But all the metrics are consistently pointing in the other direction, that the fans are there, they want it, the investors want to invest. I think, actually, the league was only looking for one expansion team, and there were 13 bids, and they were so strong that they took three.

• 25:23Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. And certainly could expand even more. Do you see that happening?

• 25:27Speaker 04

  I think I like the pace we're at, because, you know, we've got these expansion drafts, and yes, it is true. You know, we've taken a long time to build our roster, and then we have to, we can't protect everybody, so some people go, and it's very difficult. So I think that we have to phase it, and we are. So, you know, there's two new teams coming on this year, and then the other teams will come just year by year.

• 25:51Kara Swisher?

  Year by year.

• 25:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:53Kara Swisher?

  So that it builds over time.

• 25:54Speaker 04

  It builds over time.

• 25:55Kara Swisher?

  So, the WNBA also signed, as you said, a record $2.2 billion, 11-year media rights deal with broadcasters in 2024. Nobel laureate Claudia Goldin advised the WNBA Players Union on the new collective bargaining agreement, and she believes the television deal should have brought in more for the WNBA, as it compares to the NBA's deal with the same partners, is around $75 billion.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  Right.

• 26:16Kara Swisher?

  Why are the men's rights worth 34 times the women's rights?

• 26:19Speaker 04

  Can I say, I will just get to the chase and say this is why we're poised to grow, right? Because the revenues on the women's sports haven't caught up with the viewership. And that's the investment opportunity.

• 26:35Speaker 04

  Because it is true, like the WNBA viewership is a meaningful fraction of the NBA's viewership, but we are a tiny fraction of the media deal.

• 26:45Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 26:46Speaker 04

  So, and by the way, you know, we don't have to get to the size of the NBA. Just even, even a little bit of an increase is going to create enormous value. So that's why I just think women's sports in general is a great investment opportunity. Because women's sports in general have been under invested and under monetized with respect to the level of talent and the fan engagement, frankly, that there is.

• 27:09Kara Swisher?

  And besides the TV deals and the fans and the merch and the various sponsorships that you have, where do you, is there another monetization opportunity?

• 27:19Speaker 04

  Global, absolutely global.

• 27:20Kara Swisher?

  We'll talk about that.

• 27:20Speaker 04

  But you know, before I do that, I want to make sure that I make this point about why I think media rights will continue to grow. And I think it's because live sports, I think, is going to become increasingly valuable. Because in a world where content is becoming infinite, AI is making sure that content is abundant, infinite, and predictable. Live sports is the opposite of that. Like, live sports is by nature finite, and it's also unpredictable.

• 27:50Kara Swisher?

  Right, like the recent college games.

• 27:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the fact that it's unpredictable and anything can happen, that creates like emotional investment, emotional connection among the fans.

• 28:00Kara Swisher?

  Very good point.

• 28:01Speaker 04

  And so the fact that the world is becoming flooded with content, that really just increases the value of live sports. So I think what that means for team owners is we're going to see it in two places. We're going to see more people coming to the building to go to games, but we're also going to see more people watching. So I just think that there's rising demand and limited supply, and that's why I'm very positive on the future.

• 28:26Kara Swisher?

  I'm going to ask about the Human Performance Alliance in a second, but how do you look at technology in that? Obviously, everyone's talking about AI and maybe the use of it isn't as big as the hype necessarily at this point. I remember interviewing people years ago, two decades ago, "Oh, it's going to be in all the seats. Technology is the most important part." What do you think is promising and what are your, like, let's take a second?

• 28:50Speaker 04

  I think it's important to... Be up on the latest technology and you know we're getting People are coming to us with all sorts of technology all the time. I think the last place that we put it in our arena, we have like facial recognition, right? So you can actually get into the arena faster based on, okay. And so that's really good for operations and like your flow.

• 29:09Kara Swisher?

  Sure.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  There are some arenas like Steve Ballmer's arena, like that one is really kitted out and you can, I think you can also Vote from your seat and do all these things. I don't know, I, I think it's important, but right now we're Leaning heavily into the live experience and the energy in the building. I mean, I don't wanna, I, I feel like, you know, people come to games now, not just for the competition on the court, but they come because they want community and they want to feel connection. They want to be part of the live experience. And I think that's also like, you know, and I, I think for us, if you go to a Liberty game, you know, you feel people are super engaged and the energy, the energy is really high. And that's really driven by the fans.

• 29:53Speaker 04

  Like the fans are, you know, they, they're, they're there, they're loud, they really know the game. And when people go and they experience that, that's what makes them feel like they want to be a part of that experience. And so I, you know, we're, we're really leaning into the play and the competition on the court, the fan experience, creating some energy that's going to draw people in. Ellie and all of our mascots, all of our entertainment is really built to Create an experience that people can relate to.

• 30:21Kara Swisher?

  Within the arena.

• 30:22Speaker 04

  Within the arena.

• 30:23Kara Swisher?

  What, what's been brought to you, cause you see all, I get pitched tons and tons of stuff and What, what do you look at that, that you are intrigued by and what do you look at and say, especially the technological things? Get the fuck out of here, like get out of my office.

• 30:38Speaker 04

  I would love, you know, an AI person to help a, a ticket salesperson to know this person and be able to say all the right things that the person's going to convert and buy a season ticket. You know, that, that I think is, is, is really valuable.

• 30:51Kara Swisher?

  But not an AI person talking to that person, right?

• 30:55Speaker 04

  No, I hope not, but you know, somebody in your ear who can say like this is.

• 30:59Kara Swisher?

  So it's all backend is how you look at it, but not within the experience itself?

• 31:03Speaker 04

  We don't. You know, we still have human people like serving you and pouring your drink.

• 31:09Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm. No robots for you?

• 31:11Speaker 04

  No.

• 31:12Kara Swisher?

  No?

• 31:13Speaker 04

  Not yet.

• 31:14Kara Swisher?

  Elon Musk said there's going to be a million of them deployed this year.

• 31:17Speaker 04

  I've seen them. They're in the airports.

• 31:19Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Speaker 04

  Making coffee.

• 31:21Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, and?

• 31:23Speaker 04

  I do. I'm a Chemex pour-over girl. I'm old-fashioned.

• 31:26Kara Swisher?

  Okay, all right.

• 31:30Speaker 06

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 31:44Speaker 06

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• 33:51Kara Swisher?

  So let's talk about the Human Performance Alliance and then we'll get to a couple of questions from the audience before we go. It's a major research initiative you launched in 2021. This is a six-university scientific collaboration focusing on the study of the human body at its healthiest, working with top athletes. I just debuted a show on CNN called Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever about longevity. Some of it's charlatanism, some of it's misinformation, and then what's really promising. So why did you decide to take this approach? Because people aren't elite athletes. Some of the research probably just applies only to top athletes, but does it help the broader population? Talk a little bit about what you're doing here. And I appreciate your scientific focus.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the Human Performance Alliance is a scientific research initiative. And it's focused on understanding how the body performs. So how the body moves, adapts, recovers, fatigues over time. And we study people at peak health, in top form, in order to understand what drives performance and also what leads to injury. Okay? And so the reason that we started this is because as team owners, you see athletes sidelined and you see the cost of sidelined athletes and you realize that there's so little about the human body that you know.

• 35:10Speaker 04

  And for these professional athletes, like their career longevity, their health, right? Their health and their performance and their longevity is their greatest asset. So we thought, okay, well, here's an opportunity to invest in research around injury prevention and rehabilitation and recovery, not just to extend the careers of pro athletes. But then we could learn these, some principles that could also translate into, you know, that word, health span, to a better health span for everybody.

• 35:40Kara Swisher?

  Right, health span versus lifespan.

• 35:41Speaker 04

  Right, because all this stuff we learn...

• 35:42Kara Swisher?

  There's a big delta.

• 35:44Speaker 04

  Yes, there is.

• 35:45Kara Swisher?

  Fifteen years.

• 35:46Speaker 04

  Right, so when you study healthy people, then you can, it's a lot of, there are a lot of implications and things that we can gain in the areas of performance and also recovery and ultimately longevity. It will help people stave off chronic pain. Anyway, by the way, a lot of the stuff we're doing is around prediction, predicting injury or individualized.

• 36:11Kara Swisher?

  That's exactly where it's going.

• 36:12Speaker 04

  That's where it's going and all that is going to help athletes, but it's going to help all of us.

• 36:15Kara Swisher?

  Right, you know, this organ clock thing that you can tell, eventually you'll be able to say, your liver, you will get liver cancer at 52 and this is what will precipitate, I mean, that's the goal, but each organ, not the body as a whole. But only about 6% of sports science research is conducted exclusively on women despite a dramatic rise in women's sports in the past 50 years. The Alliance's female athlete-focused program is attempting to address that gap. There's no one in this lane, essentially. Talk about what you've learned overall and then specifically with women. How will the new research be applied? How long before you get things that are applicable in prevention and treatment?

• 36:54Speaker 04

  A while, but that's because we're starting with the research. Because as you noticed, in the series that you've done, a lot of people are starting to peddle protocols and supplements before the science.

• 37:08Kara Swisher?

  Yes, wellness drifters is what I call them.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  So, we're starting with the science and making sure that we're doing the clinical studies where we can really.

• 37:18Kara Swisher?

  The gold standard.

• 37:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, right, but the goal though is translation, right? And we want to have protocols and therapeutics and tools that will help athletes and you and me, right? So, but how long is that delta? I mean, it can be a long time.

• 37:35Kara Swisher?

  So, this is for the long.

• 37:36Speaker 04

  It is long-term, but if you want to do it right.

• 37:39Kara Swisher?

  Correct.

• 37:39Speaker 04

  That's the way it has to be.

• 37:41Kara Swisher?

  Yes, you're never going to make it on Instagram Clara, but go ahead.

• 37:45Speaker 04

  I don't have Instagram.

• 37:46Kara Swisher?

  I know, teasing you.

• 37:47Speaker 04

  So, I would say like, so. We're five years into this 10-year commitment and I can tell you that, you know, what I've learned in five years is informing how I want to spend the next five years of the alliance. And I think there's like, for me, three big unsolved challenges. One is predicting injury before it happens, because right now we're reactive and we treat afterward.

• 38:09Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely.

• 38:10Speaker 04

  So now we're full on into building the digital twin, right? A digital twin that can tell you what is going to happen to your body before it happens and what to do about it.

• 38:18Kara Swisher?

  So replacing sick care with healthcare, but go ahead.

• 38:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay. This is predictive and leading to prevention. And the second unsolved challenge is this personalized exercise medicine or individualized training and recovery protocols. Because right now, most training prescriptions, well, they're based on population averages. And so we eventually have to get to this point where, and we are there, because we have scientists at Salk Institutes that are studying molecules that regulate, you know, like nutrition and fatigue and metabolism. And so we're getting to this place where you'll be able to tell each individual person what exercise they need to do at what time of day with what kind of recovery. So that's another area.

• 39:02Speaker 04

  And the third big unsolved challenge is this data gap, this gender gap in human physiology knowledge. Because, as you pointed out, I mean, women's sports is growing so fast and the science and the research is just catching up. But, you know, you see that because so much of the sports science has been done on men and then just transferred to women, it's why we don't understand why menstrual cycles and hormones, we don't understand like what the impact of that is on performance and recovery. And we also don't understand why some injuries like ACL tears or bone stress fractures happen more to women than men. And so we basically need more data on female athlete physiology and ultimately so that

• 39:45Speaker 04

  we can have better precision models for women, because otherwise they won't be very accurate.

• 39:49Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. It's absolutely true. It's amazing. And at 10 years, you will renew or?

• 39:55Speaker 04

  We'll see.

• 39:56Kara Swisher?

  We'll see what you get out of it. Practical things. All right, we have some questions in the audience and I have a final question. When will the NBA play its first regular season games overseas? Is that provided for in the CBA?

• 40:09Speaker 04

  First of all, yeah, I didn't talk about global and global is is it's early for the WNBA because we have so much domestic growth ahead of us, right? We have these two new teams coming on this year and three more. So I but it's early, but it's sizable and really important. So I mean, first of all, Toronto is starting this year, so that's global. That's our first international game.

• 40:29Kara Swisher?

  I think WNBA Europe, they're asking specifically.

• 40:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, WNBA Europe, that's I mean, they're only doing NBA Europe right now, but I could see that further on in the distance. I think, you know, the immediate goals would be to start getting some global media distribution and to really start promoting the stars globally. And naturally, it's going to be foreign players who play in this league. I think right now there's 23% of the players in our league are foreign born. In the NBA, it's 30% and you can see how global the NBA is right now. So, you know, we're we're there, we're on our way. I think that percentage of foreign talent is going to grow.

• 41:06Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 41:07Speaker 04

  And so I think it's really about promoting the international stars in their home countries, but it's also, you know, globalizing the stars.

• 41:16Kara Swisher?

  That are here.

• 41:17Speaker 04

  That are here.

• 41:17Kara Swisher?

  So, Canada. All right. When you see the NBA season expanding beyond the number of games negotiated in the CBA, how do you feel about players playing overseas or elsewhere in the offseason?

• 41:27Speaker 04

  Well, we're this CBA allows us to get to 52 games per year. We're at 44. I think one of the great things about this CBA is it is going to allow players to actually build a career in the WNBA. Like fewer will have to go overseas to make a living. And that's really good because they can stay in market, they can be in front of fans and they can work on their own development, right? So I think that the fact that, you know, the salary has gone up has given players a lot more choices. Her question was or his or this question was, will there be?

• 42:10Kara Swisher?

  Playing offseason, how do you feel?

• 42:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. How do I feel?

• 42:15Speaker 04

  I like players to stay in-market. I like them to stay in the U.S. because it keeps our players in front of fans. Unrivaled is an example of a league that's well-run and it's it's

• 42:27Kara Swisher?

  Does the new salary cap and media deal and play a falloff of the unrivaled league? Or not?

• 42:31Speaker 04

  No.

• 42:32Kara Swisher?

  That's a question here.

• 42:32Speaker 04

  It's a question for a player.

• 42:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, okay. Let me, this is something to do with both the NBA, two questions. This is one, what is the main challenge in navigating a WNBA team versus an NBA team? Are there distinct differences? And then, if Liberty is in a growth mode, where are the Nats? How are you reinvigorating the team after years of rebuilding?

• 42:53Speaker 04

  Well, WNBA is so energizing right now because we're in like growth mode and we're in build, you're building something and you can innovate and do things that have never been done. You're building new audiences. So, you know, that's very exciting. You can try things that you haven't done in the NBA, okay? And so, on the NBA side, the talent is incredible. You know, and again, like you see it in the college level. And so, I think it's really, personally, I think it's really exciting when you have young players. You know, like we are in a rebuild year. But I think a lot of our fans are trained in the NBA to be really patient. They're really loyal to the team, but they understand.

• 43:38Speaker 04

  And they also see models. Like, they see the Oklahoma City Thunder and they can see how when you rebuild with young stars that you've drafted, you can actually create a championship team. And your fans are, you know, they see that and they, you know, and they believe that's possible for your team as well. So, that's what we're doing. We've been pretty open about it, about wanting to draft well this year. And, you know, we have players that we drafted last year that are really strong. And we're looking, you know, for both of our teams, we're looking for the long-term.

• 44:07Kara Swisher?

  All right, one more question from the audience. They sort of belong together, too. How do you engage audiences authentically through cultural sensitivity when looking at growing the audience and bringing in presumably younger people? And then, Ellie, the elephant, is iconic. Who deserves credit for Liberty having the best mascot in any league? Talk about that idea of cultural sensitivity when growing this audience. Because you want more

• 44:30Speaker 04

  We do, but you know, we're, we're based in Brooklyn and we made a decision to

• 44:36Speaker 04

  Have all of our entertainment and our team really rooted in Brooklyn culture. And Brooklyn is a place where 200 languages are spoken.

• 44:44Kara Swisher?

  It is.

• 44:44Speaker 04

  And it's one of the most diverse places in the country, if not the planet. So, you know, when you lean into Brooklyn culture, you know, all of our theme nights and our timeless torches and everything we have around the game really reflects the spirit of the borough. So, we're very intentional about that and because we can do that, because Brooklyn is so diverse, we naturally promote diversity. Ellie is, you know, she's, she's connective tissue. I mean, she's part of, you know, I think I was saying earlier about how people come to sports games to connect with people and to have a joyful experience. And I think Ellie has this, she has charisma and she has personality and she's one of

• 45:25Speaker 04

  the reasons why she creates that joyful atmosphere that people have, can associate now with the Liberty game.

• 45:32Kara Swisher?

  Liberty game.

• 45:33Speaker 04

  She's really important.

• 45:34Kara Swisher?

  They are a lot of fun. I was joking with Clara, I was asking, Adam Silver apparently told her I didn't like sports and it's actually factual. And at the same time, I love the business of sports and I like the elephant quite a bit. I enjoy, I like this, I like everything else except the game.

• 45:49Speaker 04

  Well, now there's so much to eat, that's the thing.

• 45:52Kara Swisher?

  Also, your food and candy is on point.

• 45:55Speaker 04

  Right. So, that's, that's exactly it. So Ellie bridges that. She's actually bridges that traditional sports fan, you know, and the more casual fan.

• 46:02Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, exactly. So, last question. We're in a moment when investment is converging with growing fan base and public enthusiasm. How does the excitement around women's sports become a sustainable, long-term commitment, not just a trend? How should everyone, the front office, coaches, owners and players, take advantage of the momentum while staying true to the values? What is the thing you think about most? Because you want it to be for the long-term, as you noted.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I don't think it's a bubble at all. I think women's sports is moving to a rerating because I do feel that women's sports has been under-invested in and under-monetized. And so, I think that there's a real opportunity as revenues catch up. So, I think, but it is important that we price to value, but I also think that for all the reasons I mentioned about, well, this unique, the young audience that comes to our games, that all the advertisers and media want to reach, all the sponsors want to reach. I mean, you know, that's, and also what I mentioned about why live sports is so valuable. I mean, I think that there's, there's reasons why revenues should grow that are beyond, you know. Macro trends that I think make this an exciting place to be.

• 47:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  But I also want to mention that, you know, like sophisticated capital is coming into this area as well. And there are these dedicated funds that invest only in women's sports. And so that in itself is also just showing that, you know, that it's being underwritten as its own asset class.

• 47:26Kara Swisher?

  Right. Well, thank you so much for talking about this. It was a great interview. Clara Wu Sai, thank you so much for joining me.

• 47:32Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 47:40Kara Swisher?

  Have you ever wanted career advice from Kara Swisher? Maybe you haven't, but I bet you do a little bit. So now's your chance. Send a selfie video of your question to [email protected] and you may be featured in an upcoming special episode. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester, Sam Lee, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, that's a slam dunk. If not, we're calling a flagrant foul. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening

• 48:25Kara Swisher?

  to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.