Ep 47: Bryan Callen on Eating Corgis (Yes, The Dogs) and Improving Creativity

Bryan Callen is a prolific actor and world-class standup comic. He's appeared on shows including Entourage, Law & Order, CSI, Sex and the City, Oz, and others. He also travels the globe performing stand-up comedy for sold-out audiences. This episode is a hilarious romp. We delve into the craft of comedy, fixing education (or shortcuts within it), habits and tricks for boosting creativity, writing, and the general pursuit of excellence. And, of course, eating corgis... Last but not least, Bryan is also INCREDIBLY well read. Don't miss the show notes at www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I answer your personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Well, it would seem inappropriate to answer that.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you for supporting the sponsors of this show. 99designs, which is your one-stop shop for all things graphic design-related. Go to 99designs.com/tim to see the projects that I've put up, including the mock-ups and drafts of the book cover for The Four Hour Body. Xoficio, Xoficio and I go way back. Xoficio.com/tim. You can see the clothing that I've used for traveling through 20-plus countries, including the underwear. By the way, that's about half of my underwear drawer right now. Xoficio.com/tim. You can also see the viral video that I put out, which shows you how to travel the world with 10 pounds or less. As always, you can subscribe to this podcast on iTunes, and you can find all of the links

• 1:05Tim Ferriss?

  and resources from this episode, as well as every other episode, by going to fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. Spell it all out. Or you can go to fourhourworkweek.com and just click on Podcast. Feedback? If you have feedback, I would love your thoughts, anything at all, who you'd like to see on this show. Ping me on Twitter, @TFerriss, that's twitter.com/TFERRISS, or on Facebook, at facebook.com/timferriss, with two Rs and two S's.

• 1:37Tim Ferriss?

  Good day. This is Tim Ferriss. I'm sitting in a park. It's a beautiful park in San Francisco, and the fall weather is upon us. The leaves are turning color, and the eucalyptus are still standing tall. The foliage has not yet fallen. It's a beautiful day. For those of you who have not listened to The Tim Ferriss Show before, this is where I try to use all of my contacts and research to dissect excellence, to figure out whether it's a billionaire investor, a chess prodigy, an actor, or, in this episode's case, an actor and a comedian. How do they do what they do? What are the tools and tactics and tricks that you can use? So we dig very, very deep. But I'll start off with a bit of linguistic trivia.

• 2:19Tim Ferriss?

  And I will ask apologies, or rather, not apologies, that'd be a weird way to phrase it. Forgiveness from the Turkish speakers. I love the Turkish language. It's a fascinating language, fascinating culture, a real collision of European and Middle Eastern cultures. And I also have found the similarity between Turkish and Japanese very, very interesting. But I'll give you an idea of how I deconstruct languages, just by memorizing phrases. You can pick out patterns. So for instance, if you say "good day" is translated into English and Turkish. And again, I've read this, not said it a lot, but it's "i gunlar." "i gunlar."

• 3:03Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, "good evening" is "i akşamlar." Okay, "i akşamlar." And then the way you would say "child," I believe it's "çocuk" or "çocuk." And then you have "çocuklar." Okay, so you notice the "lar" at the end. So to turn "child" into "children," you have the "lar" at the end. And it turns out that literally "good day" is "good days" or "good evenings" in Turkish. And so you can start to piece it together without a dictionary, without a grammar reference, just by memorizing a handful, even like 100 words or phrases. Anyway, I'm a nerd, there you have it. But we're going to move on to Brian Callen, who's the guest for this episode.

• 3:45Tim Ferriss?

  He is a prolific actor who has acted in more shows than I can count, certainly, but includes pretty much all the shows at the top of the rankings. Frasier, NYPD Blue, Entourage, Law & Order, CSI, Sex in the City, King of Queens. It goes on and on and on. He's also a world-class comic who travels the globe, performing stand-up comedy for sold-out audiences all over the world. He's also one of the best-read people I have ever met. So we're going to dig into all sorts of things. The craft of comedy, how he boosts his own creativity, which it sounds like I could stand to gain from. Ideas for improving education, both self-education and institutional education.

• 4:29Tim Ferriss?

  Many different book recommendations, influences of his. We really dig into a lot of details that I found fascinating. Brian's one of my favorite people to hang out with. So without further ado, here's Brian Callen.

• 4:45Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, ladies and gentlemen, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to the Tim Ferriss Show. But we also have 50% of this episode, which is The Brian Callen Show. Brian, welcome to the show.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Thank you, sir.

• 4:57Tim Ferriss?

  I am excited to have you on for many different reasons. Not the least of which, as we were discussing before we started recording, you are known as the best body in comedy, if I'm not mistaken.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  That's right. Just think of, you guys don't have any videos, just think of if you were to take human skin and stretch it over a cheetah. I think that's probably the best way. That's not me, that's just what my critics.

• 5:20Tim Ferriss?

  The critics, that's what, that's, that's, that's the worst they can come up with.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  That's what my admirers say, but that's, that's just what the critics say.

• 5:29Tim Ferriss?

  And, you know, I'm trying to piece together, it's been a number of years now, but how did we first meet? What was the first?

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Neil Brennan, who was the creator of The Chappelle Show, knew I was into fitness and all that. And he sent me, I believe, a TED Talk you had done about a guy named Tim Ferriss. He said, "What do you think of this guy?" And I, I watched it and I, and I was very taken with the way you were explaining things and, and how you used your body as a, as a human guinea pig. And I, I think I texted him back, I said, "Well, I know one thing, I'm gonna go out and get the book, The Four Hour Body." And, of course, that sent me, basically, I started with The Four Hour Body, and then I got into Four Hour Work Week, and then, of course, I listened to, then I read The Four Hour Chef. So I became sort of this, but what I really, some of the concepts that you talked about

• 6:21Speaker 00

  resonated so deeply with me. 20% of your effort results in 80% of your results, et cetera, et cetera. And here was this guy who had, who was in all the things I was into, fighting and, and deconstructing the learning process. And then I heard you were gonna be at this loft in downtown LA, at some publicist place, talking about your book. So my wife and I went there and I had a brief conversation with you, not long enough. And I think that's how we first met.

• 6:51Tim Ferriss?

  That's right.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then I just, I think we had mutual friends, Joe Rogan and Keith Farazzi and various people like that. And, and then I got you on my podcast, I remember.

• 7:00Tim Ferriss?

  And that's when we started dating, seriously, I think.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  When we started dating.

• 7:06Tim Ferriss?

  That's right. And actually, the timing now is making perfect sense to me because I recognized you initially from having just seen Warrior.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 7:16Tim Ferriss?

  And you were in that movie and I remembered the goldfish scene, among others, the bag with the goldfish. And I was very impressed with your performance and then delved into a lot of your comedy, went to one of your live shows, which was hilarious.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 7:32Tim Ferriss?

  And really is something that I think everybody should experience, not just your comedy ideally, but if you haven't been to a live stand-up show, it's so categorically different from dealing with audio virtually. I mean, just the interaction with the audience, everything is so unique.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, that show in particular too was a night where I was really trying a bunch of new stuff. I'm about to shoot my one hour special. So what you saw was really in its infancy. And I remember, I remember having you in the audience. I said, if anybody's going to appreciate the process, I was literally trying to work out so many of those bits. And I wasn't even sure where a lot of them were going, but it was a really receptive audience. And it was just fun to do that for you. And I think you were there with the founder of Uber.

• 8:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, Travis Kalanick was there. Yep.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so in a way, when you have people there, you want to do your best stuff and kill it. But I just kind of remember myself going, I think Tim will appreciate the sort of the process that is. It'd be fun for you to watch now when I shoot my special because it's all gelled and it's so tight. And of course, now I just want to shoot it and move on to the next process, which is coming up with a whole new hour. But, um, but yeah, yeah, I remember that. And I do think that that's what's fun about stand-up. It's really interesting when you, comedy seems to be the great equalizer. When you, when you do stand-up in so many of the places that I do it, what's really cool nowadays is that so few of the audience are actually traditionally white. You know, I just came

• 9:05Speaker 00

  from San Antonio where it was primarily, you know, Mexican-American. And, but if you do a stand-up in a place like New York City or in San Francisco or in Vancouver, man, it is the United Nations out there. And what's really interesting, I think maybe because of the internet, is regardless of all the cultures and how we all come from different origins and different, you know, points of view. Most people laugh at the same stuff nowadays. I mean, they're getting the jokes. Uh, uh, I've been offered to do this tour in India. And I said, are they gonna get my stuff? And my friend said, are you kidding? They'll love it. And not only will they love it, they know who you are. I was sitting next to a woman on the plane and she kept looking at me.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  I said, oh, boy, here goes. And she was from India, from Mumbai. And she said, I'm so sorry to bother you, but. And she had a heavy, uh, Indian accent. And she said, are you, are you on the show How I Met Your Mother? And I went, yes, I am. And sometimes I'm on that show. And she said, I watch you all the time and I watch you in India. And I thought this is just, you know, it's really becoming a global marketplace. It was really wild.

• 10:13Tim Ferriss?

  So do you find when you're developing your material that, uh, I'm sure you do, this is kind of a silly question, but what aspects are most difficult of developing material? Because I love watching the iterative process. And, uh, people have strong opinions about this documentary, but I, I as, as an outsider, found it interesting to watch, uh, comedian, uh, with, with, uh, with Seinfeld and others.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 10:39Tim Ferriss?

  Just to see, like you said, how level a playing field it is. Like it, it doesn't matter if you're Jerry Seinfeld or anyone else. If you get up and your stuff isn't funny, people are just not going to laugh.

• 10:51Speaker 00

  Oh, it's why it's quick. It's why there, there are three things you can't really fake. One is fighting, that, uh, the, the second thing is sex. And the third thing is comedy.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Your publicist is, or how famous you are, man. If you don't bring the money, it gets quiet in that room fast. You gotta be funny or you're dead. And, and it's, it's just the way it is, man. And that's kind of what I love about, you know, MMA and, and, uh, you know, I do this podcast called The Fighter and the Kid with Brendan Schaub, who's about to fight Travis Brown next. And I, you know, Brendan's gonna go in there and fight the number three fighter in the world. He's six foot seven, 240 pounds. And Brendan better bring the heat. Cause no matter how much we want him to win, it's him alone in that ring. And in a lot of ways, when you're on stage, it's the same thing. But to answer your question. You know, the, the process, you know, I, I don't think about being funny and I certainly

• 11:47Speaker 00

  don't think about being universal. I, I think the way to write stand-up, if you want longevity in this business, at least for me, is to start by asking yourself personal questions. And what I write from is this, I'll ask myself some very personal questions. I ask myself what I'm afraid of, what I'm ashamed of, who I'm pretending to be, who I really am, where I am versus where I thought I'd be. Those are the kinds of things that resonate with people. Uh, I have children, I like to talk about how great they are, and I also like to talk about how frickin' boring it is to be a parent sometimes. Or, or, you know, I like to talk about the fact that if my dick had a mouth, it would be saying things like, monogamies for pussies, you know, whatever it is. Those are the kinds

• 12:31Speaker 00

  of things people resonate with, especially when they're married, you know. Uh, my wife may not like to hear that, but those are the things. And, and so it really is, that stage is the last bastion of free speech. It's really the place you can really be honest. And my, my feeling is that when you write from that perspective, the comedy finds its way through.

• 12:49Tim Ferriss?

  And how, how much of a pass do you have to develop your onstage, uh, presence? Or, I, I hesitate to use the word personality because I feel like there, there are comedians and stand-up, uh, comics who have very different personalities on and off the stage. I feel like you're pretty much what you see is what you get. I mean, I feel like, uh, obviously the, the volume is turned up, the intensity is turned up, but, uh, you're very much the same guy in a lot of ways on and off the stage, which I think is a good thing.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  I, I think that's the authenticity. I, I certainly think when you start out, you, you are, um, you're, you're putting on a performance and a character and you're just, you know, it's a whirlwind. But I think as you do it, The person that you really are versus the person that is onstage begins to mesh. And there becomes almost no difference at all, hopefully, as you continue to do it.

• 13:47Tim Ferriss?

  And can you start off, as I think a lot of writers do, for instance, a lot of actors, timid and then develop a very brutally honest way of doing comedy? Or is that something you kind of have to start with to get away with it? And the reason I ask is that I feel like comedy, as you put it, is one of the, certainly in the US at least, one of the last places where we can talk about the touchiest of subjects, right? You can talk about adultery, fantasies of adultery, race, which is, I think, a big one. You can talk about sex and sexism. You can say what everyone is thinking without having your career destroyed, necessarily,

• 14:32Tim Ferriss?

  right?

• 14:33Speaker 00

  I do. I think that we, you know, it's, we live in a world where people are terrified to talk about how they really feel. I mean, my God, look at the corporate world. Look at how structured you have to be. But I think that's changing. I think that, I don't know if it's the internet or whatnot, but I do think that you, the long-term approach for any company, and I believe that's for your brand as a performer. I think your long-term approach should always be authenticity. Try to be as honest as you can. We'll forgive you if it's coming from an honest and compassionate place.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  You can talk about stereotypes. You can talk about things that are uncomfortable, as long as you have, hopefully, a solution or as long as it's, I just, I don't know, it's just, boy, do I feel sometimes like we're so stifled. You know, I think we're, it's very, people are very hesitant to really talk about what is really going on.

• 15:44Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I agree.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  I mean, I think our resources many times are misallocated. For example, on my podcast, I had a woman who was talking about how we have to spend more money on education. And my co-host on the show Hunter Matz, who you know, who wrote a book called The Straight Conspiracy, had studied the learning process and said, "Look, the biggest enemy is the fact that a lot of students or kids in this country just don't believe that they are capable of learning. We have these misguided beliefs. I don't have the math gene. I don't have an ear for languages." This kind of shit that's fed to us. Well, in fact, maybe what

• 16:26Speaker 00

  we need is a shift in how we look at learning. We need a shift in how we look at ourselves. We may not need money at all. We may just need to get people to take a different point of view on how one can learn and how capable we are. Some cultures, it could be argued, some races, it could be argued, have been in, I don't know what the word is, but you can make the argument that there are large swaths of our population that don't believe they're even capable of learning the way their white colleagues are, for example. That's stuff that needs to be talked about. That doesn't need money. That needs dialogue.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  There are bad ideas out there. And the way you beat a bad idea is with a good idea.

• 17:14Tim Ferriss?

  No, I agree.

• 17:15Speaker 00

  And I think if that's at the heart of what you're saying as a stand-up comic on stage, or as a politician, we forgive you. We'll see it. We'll feel it. Maybe it's idealistic. I don't know.

• 17:30Tim Ferriss?

  No, I think that, I think it's better to be slightly too idealistic than too jaded or cynical, right? Because idealism can at least spur you to action, whereas cynicism is exactly the opposite. It leads you to do nothing, right? So, I mean, I don't remember who originally said this, but there's a quote to the effect of, you know, "The person who says everything is going to be all right and the person who says nothing can be done are both bad because in both cases you do nothing."

• 18:04Speaker 00

  Well, in the case that gets a way of critical thinking, right? So if you're completely optimistic, you're not being critical. You're not, you're not being, yeah, you, you, you've got to be, it gets in the way of sober thinking, both, both, both ends of that spectrum.

• 18:17Tim Ferriss?

  And I wanted to just add a comment related to a point you made echoing Hunter, that the issue is, is first and foremost, a, a challenging of belief sets in the United States at least, just limiting it to the United States. And I have to just mention for people who are interested in this, you should check out an organization called Quest Bridge, it's just questbridge.org. And I'm an advisor to this nonprofit. What they do, I'll, I'll illustrate by example, which I just think is so, so fucking elegant and, and creative. What they've realized is that the getting low income, let's just say, students who are high performing, right?

• 19:00Tim Ferriss?

  Who, who are getting straight A's, who are in the top 10% on the SATs, into good schools or into college at all, is not a funding problem. There is tons of money at all of these top schools for giving these kids full rights. The problem is a recruiting problem. That's where the dislocation exists because these kids have no family members, no teachers, no guidance counselors who, who will ever tell them or convince them to apply to a, you know, Princeton, a Yale or whatever. And so what Quest Bridge will do, among many other things, is for instance, imagine that you're, whether it's, you know, a Native American on a reservation, a poor black kid in the Bronx, or a poor white kid in Appalachia.

• 19:45Tim Ferriss?

  It's, it's not race or color based, it's, it's, it's needs based and merit based. You get a letter in the mail, or you see an advertisement that is offering you the chance to get a free iPad. All right? You fill out this application because you want a free iPad. And unbeknownst to you, QuestBridge has made that application standardized as an application form to 35 of the top universities in the country. A few weeks later, you then get a letter from, say, Princeton, offering you a free ride for four years. And so they're focusing on fixing that recruiting problem. And I think the number is something like half of the low-income kids at the top 35

• 20:30Tim Ferriss?

  universities in the country have been fed into the system and fully funded by QuestBridge. What this means is, if you're willing, if you want to work philanthropically, I'm sorry, I gotta get out my soapbox for this, just because I'm so passionate about education and I recognize the opportunities I've had, that means that you don't need to spend a quarter of a million dollars to put a kid through college at a top school, which is what a lot of people perceive. They're like, "Oh, my God, I have to make millions and millions of dollars before I can make a difference." In fact, if you were to take, say, 50 grand to help support these types of prizes, the iPads and so on, you could put 50 kids, potentially, through four years at the best schools in

• 21:11Tim Ferriss?

  the country by solving the right problem, which is not a funding problem, it is a recruiting problem, and changing those belief systems. So, I totally agree with you.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Amazing. And to piggyback on that, there's a guy who I just had on my podcast, Mark Derizowitz, who wrote a book called Excellent Sheep. He was a Yale professor and took a look at the, essentially, what was wrong with higher education, these elite institutions, primarily places like Amherst and Yale and Harvard. And one of the things he said is, "We're breeding excellent sheep. You've got 31 flavors of vanilla. These kids are so obsessed with, essentially, achievement for its own sake, not fulfillment or meaning, but rather achievement for its own sake, that they, so they can get into a great, become rich doctors or lawyers or consultants or investment bankers.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  And even that becomes an extension of what they've been doing their whole life, which was, hey, I want to please my boss, jump through these loopholes and be an elite person." And it's an interesting book, but one of the things he talked about was that these elite institutions are, there's a feeder system of about 100 high schools in this country, about 100 high schools. And that's it, that that that provides students to these universities. So something like QuestBridge is desperately needed so that we can create an equality of opportunity. That's always what it is, right?

• 22:41Tim Ferriss?

  No, exactly. And it's it's when you look at some of the recruiting efforts that are perhaps less than ideal, what they tend to do is try to recruit, say, low-income but high-performing students from within a certain radius of the school itself. And that generally means if the vast majority of these top schools are, say, on the east and west coast, you're just not recruiting kids from the vast majority of the country, even though they're there. And I think that if you want not just a diversity of color, which I think, quite frankly, can be really, it can be a very confusing and misguided conversation for people.

• 23:21Tim Ferriss?

  But if you're looking for a diversity of socioeconomic backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, and so on, you really need to get outside of a handful of zip codes.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, more of a representation of what the real world is, for God's sake.

• 23:37Tim Ferriss?

  Right, exactly. So to to totally shift gears, because I am fascinated and hugely intimidated by comedy, how do you, what does your creative process look like? So to get to, for instance, you're about to do a one-hour special, a highly refined, well-oiled machine, biceps of steel, deltoids like a Vidalia onion with with sheet of skin on it.

• 24:08Tim Ferriss?

  I've seen your tattoos. And but where does that start, right? So when you finish this and you're like, oh, my God, even though it's going to to tear apart of my soul asunder, I need to put together new material. What where do you start? What is what does that process look like?

• 24:27Speaker 00

  Well, I I find that, you know, I do better when I'm moving. So I've written all my stand-up, walking my dog or hiking in the Santa Monica Mountains. And even more than that, I've learned that comedy is a mindset, you know? I think Francis Ford Coppola said, "Great screenplays are written on the hoods of cars and standing in line at DMV," or something like that. And he's right. Uh, you you write things a lot of times when you're you're doing something else. Um, you'll get an idea, you'll get an idea. Um, my idea, one of the ideas I had is, boy, you know, if you turn my life into a movie, I don't think, I wouldn't recommend going. It's kind of a, it's kind of a, it's kind of a bummer.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  I thought, I thought I was gonna be living this action-packed lifestyle, but boy, do I spend a lot of time in traffic and sleeping. Uh, so it's not, I don't think that my life would make a very exciting movie. I certainly am not the hero I thought I'd be. I think, in fact, instead of being the gunslinger, I'm sort of the the merchant who boards up his windows when when they come to fight. I never, I'm appalled at that. I I wrestled and I like to box and I I fancy myself kind of the opposite, but you know, let's look at my real life. That is, that is very fertile soil. And so what I'll do is I just keep coming back to that theme. I keep thinking about that. I keep thinking about how I, what my expectations of myself were when I was younger.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Um, who did I really wanna be? Uh, and who am I really? Uh, tha- that's kind of thing. And by the way, why do I box for, uh, four days of the week? Why do I spar with 21-year-olds and get hit in the face? It's not good for my brain. It doesn't help my pocketbook. It's ridiculous. What's going on here, man? What, do I, do I really think I'm gonna get in a fight? If I punch somebody in the face, I better have a good lawyer. Yet I really practice hard and I try to sit down on my punches and I think about it and I shadow box. It's a little ridiculous at 47 years old. It just is. And and and I'm pissed off that I haven't been able to roll more.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  I mean, you know, just in case I gotta put somebody in a, in a triangle. Are you kidding me? Kidding me? It's just ridiculous. I drive a Passat. You know, uh, but, but where does this come from? What's going on, man? Wha- what is happening? Well, I had a father who was a giant. Uh, I mean, a giant. Um, I take after the Sicilian side, my mother's side. She comes from a long line of peasants and petty criminals. So, you know, I built to blend in with a crowd. I can take your pocket, you can describe me. Who's the, he was white, brown hair, medium, you know, whatever. Right? So, so these are, these are where, that, that's kind of what you start to think about who you really are.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  Talk, think for a second about how you behave. And then, and then start thinking about why? How did you start? How did you get here for Christ's sake? Who are you? If you watched yourself from afar, if you met yourself, what, how would, what would you tell? What would you say to yourself? What would you tell you, would you say, hey, you gotta change this, this and that? Or would you say, you know what? You're perfect, leave yourself alone. I doubt you'd say, you're perfect, leave yourself alone. So, th- th- that, it really becomes a process of introspection.

• 27:53Tim Ferriss?

  And when you're working with these questions, what's the, the container, the schedule for that? So, for instance, you have, uh, the podcasts. You have, uh, your sort of scheduling on the road career of performing. You have your TV work, you've got your film work, you've got many different projects that you need to schedule for. When, when do you typically develop material? I mean, i- is it in all the in-between slots? Or do you actually schedule, say, two hours of walking four, four times a week?

• 28:27Speaker 00

  That's a very good question because the, the, I, I think it's very important to, um, because we all get very busy, right? So yesterday I'm, I'm shooting The Goldbergs, this, this fun show on ABC and my day has been, I mean, long days, 12-hour days. I'm driving and I have a 6:15 call tomorrow morning and I'll be there all day. You, you, you, so what that means is that writing is a mindset. Writing is not something you schedule. Writing comedy must be a mindset. What I mean by that is that I took all the fencing, any of the sacred space around quote unquote, work time or writing, I took it away.

• 29:10Speaker 00

  I don't believe, some people have to do that. You know, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, the great writer who died recently, who wrote A Thousand Years of Solitude and Loving the Time of Colorado and things. He had four hours a day, he would write no matter what. Hemingway did the same thing. Flannery O'Connor said something wonderful. She said, I sit at my typewriter every, every morning at 5:30 in the morning, not to write, but just in case something happens. It's an act of faith. I had, she's got to show up in case. And, and Nick Cave was just on NPR talking about the same thing. He said, I find writing is, you know, this idea, well, you're a rock star, it just comes. No, it's, it's labor. It's hard labor. Yes, yes, Somerset Maule said, the muse hits me at eight o'clock every morning.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  In other words, he sits down and, and if the muse shows, it shows, either way, I write. So there is, there is, um, there is a place, if you're a creative person or any kind of person, and you want to produce something out of nothing, I think you do need to, I guess, sequester time, but.

• 30:10Tim Ferriss?

  But you don't do that.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  I don't do that because life gets too busy. And when you're an actor and you got podcasts, things are way too unpredictable. And when, of course, you have to box, uh, it's, you know.

• 30:20Tim Ferriss?

  When you're losing half of your ideas due to brain damage, it makes it harder.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  That's right. So what I do is I just say, when I'm driving in traffic, I'm going to start writing. When I'm in the shower, I'm going to start writing.

• 30:30Tim Ferriss?

  How are you capturing these ideas?

• 30:33Speaker 00

  I, I, I try not to capture them. That's, that's what I do. I just, I just happen, do, do, so you're looking at your computer or whatever as you're talking to me, just take, just turn your head and look somewhere else. That's literally how I look at writing. I go, oh, I'm, I'm doing this, I'm going to turn over here and just start thinking. I don't put anything on it, nothing on it. And that's, that's something you can practice and get very good at.

• 31:00Tim Ferriss?

  Now, at some point, though, you have to, I would assume, uh, record this, develop it, start looking at possible ways of delivery and so on. Is there a point at which you write any of this stuff down, or do you just try to hold it in your head and then jump on stage and freestyle it?

• 31:16Speaker 00

  I do write it down, but again, I'm performing it a lot as well. Um, and the reason I write it down is it's very similar to writing songs, writing music. So when you write music, and I've talked to a couple of people, I've talked to Fiona Apple about this, I've talked to Harry Connick Jr. about this, and I've talked to some other, some other musicians. Um, and all of them said, then they've seen me do stand-up and, and I think it was, I think both Harry and Fiona said, you know, you do very similar, you do what I do. Uh, you know, stand-up feels very, comedy feels very much like music. I said, what do you mean? They said, well, when you're writing a song, rhythm, tempo, um, uh, melody, that it's all, it, it, it's all very, very important. You're always kind

• 32:00Speaker 00

  of working out, like, where to place emphasis, um, where not to place emphasis, how many words are in the song. And comedy is exactly the same thing. When you write a bit, finding how many words go into that joke, finding how many words, I should say, go into the surprise, because comedy is really surprise, isn't it? When, when you're, I got you going one, down one lane, then I say something and you go, oh, I didn't see that coming, and you start laughing. It's kind of what it is. Uh, there is a rhythm, there is a perfect number of words, and I believe there's a perfect amount of emphasis and de-emphasis, if that's a word, uh, to that sentence. Uh, and, and that's kind of the process of

• 32:44Speaker 00

  finding exactly what that whole rhythm is. It's very much like music. It really is.

• 32:51Tim Ferriss?

  If, if you had to, if you, let's see here. Um, no, this is very interesting. So I love, I love watching comedy and listening to comedy. I'm not a, a well-versed connoisseur. I haven't studied comedy theory, if there is such a thing, like music theory, I don't know. Uh, but, um, I've at least observed that they're, they're stylistically very, uh, many successful comics who have

• 33:17Tim Ferriss?

  Dramatically different types of delivery, right? So you have, uh, when I watch your performance, I agree. There's a, there's a certain musicality to it. Then you might see, uh, let's just say a Steven Wright or Mitch Hedberg, which the, from a delivery standpoint, sometimes seems as dry as sort of a cyborg without any personality, but it's, it's, it's hilarious. Or a lot of it, I find to be very, very funny. Who are a few comics? Do you say comics or comedians, by the way? I guess maybe they're, they're, they're distinct.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  I'd say comics.

• 33:51Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. Uh, which comics out there, living or dead, are very different from your own, uh, style of, uh, stand-up that you really admire?

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Well, you know, I mean, the people I admire, I, I, I don't know how different, but certainly I think George Carlin and, uh, George Carlin was, again, not as interested in being funny. Being funny is something that you do and, you know, there are a lot of tricks to being funny. It's a little bit like being a musician where you write pop songs with tricks and hooks. You know, um, with phrases that are catchy and beats that are catchy. And then, then you listen to Pink Floyd or you listen to Led Zeppelin or you listen to, you know, um, whoever they might be. And, and, and it's just a different feel, man. There's a reason Zeppelin is still kind of marvel that and still listen to. Pink Floyd, the same thing where you listen to The Wall and you go,

• 34:49Speaker 00

  "Man, this music's kind of timeless." Well, I think that Carlin was really busy trying to say something. You know, it's one thing to be funny. It's another thing to be thematic and to be getting the audience to think a little bit.

• 35:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, profound in a way.

• 35:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think Pryor did that. I think Carlin did that. And I, and again, I'm not, that's why I, I would say those people are very different than I am. I'm certainly trying to do that, but that's a very different comment. I think my next hour is going to be a lot more in that direction. But those guys were, um,

• 35:26Speaker 00

  Not afraid to make you feel a little bit uncomfortable. And I think it was also a time when people believed they could make a difference with their with their expression. We live in cynical times. I don't think a lot of people feel that they're making a difference at all. Uh, with the exception of people like yourself. It's one of the reasons I like talking to you, reading books. Um, you know, the, the, we have to fight that, you know, so. But, but as far as to answer your question, I'm going around, you know, I'm, I'm going around, around here, but Sebastian Maniscalco is hilarious.

• 35:56Tim Ferriss?

  How do you spell his last name?

• 35:58Speaker 00

  Sebastian Maniscalco, I, I'm not sure.

• 36:00Tim Ferriss?

  Maniscalco, I can look it up.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  He's so funny. You just go under Sebastian comedian. He goes by one name usually. He's amazing. Um, and then Dove Davidoff, of course, who's a dear friend of mine.

• 36:12Tim Ferriss?

  Dove Davidoff is great.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  Brett Ernst is great. Uh, Tom Segura is great. Uh, you know, Joe Rogan is, is, uh, somebody I perform with a lot and a dear friend. And Rogan is just, you know, Rogan is just about telling the truth. Rogan is again, another comic who's less worried about being funny, though he's very funny. And way more interested in getting into your head. Why he's got a cult following, it's crazy.

• 36:37Tim Ferriss?

  Oh yeah, the following is, the following is incredible.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:40Tim Ferriss?

  Do you, do you remember the first, and I apologize if my terminology is off to you, is off, but the first bit or the first, uh, the first comedy that you performed that really got an exceptional response from an audience? Do you remember that?

• 36:57Speaker 00

  I do, I do.

• 36:58Tim Ferriss?

  Could you, could you tell me a bit about it and why, why you think it worked and how it came about?

• 37:03Speaker 00

  I, um, I, the first thing I wrote was, and I didn't know if it would work and God, you know, I don't know. I, I thought to myself, what, I, I was looking, I saw a special on penguins. And I said, gee whiz, man, you're, that's a, that's a legless, flightless bird in the middle of the South Pole. What in the world did you have to do in your past life to be reborn that shitty a bird? You know, I mean, wouldn't you way rather be an eagle and soar? Uh, or would you rather be those, those, basically those feather sausages?

• 37:41Speaker 00

  That sucks. What do you do if a polar bear comes at you? Or whatever. You spend all your time running away from leopard seals. And I just wrote this thing about who, what you had to do and who you had to be. And, and I run away from a polar bear and how I'm cold all the time and I look like everybody else. Anyway, I was amazed because I was so terrified it wasn't going to be funny. But it worked. It worked. It was amazing.

• 38:06Tim Ferriss?

  Were there any, any particular, you mentioned hooks and tricks and I, I don't view those terms in a negative way. Uh, but, um, were, were there any particular hooks or tricks in that bit? That, that, that helped it to work?

• 38:22Speaker 00

  I don't know. I, I never really, um, I mean, I look back on my old stand-up and I cringe. I mean, I cringe. I can't even watch it. But I, I don't think, I don't think I was ever, I think I was at least sincere. I, I, I mean, I, I don't think I was ever looking for hooks or, or tricks. I was just writing what I thought was funny. I mean, that's my, my, young people ask me advice on stand-up and I always say, look, man. First of all, I'll see you in 10 years. And second of all, uh, you know, write only what you think is funny and write every day. Uh, and try to perform as much as you can. And if you can't perform in front of the mirror, that's how you become a comic.

• 39:02Tim Ferriss?

  Have you performed much in front of the mirror?

• 39:05Speaker 00

  All the time.

• 39:06Tim Ferriss?

  Really? What does that, what does that, what does that look like? I mean,

• 39:09Speaker 00

  I perfected my Chris Walken as a pigeon in front of a mirror. Out of these things, you know, that's what I do. I was literally in front of the mirror going, cool, cool. I'm a small bird, tiny, skinny, big chest, hanging around water fountains all day. Bread on my mind. I don't know. Anyway. should be arrested for even doing that, but this is the kind of thing you do as a comic, you know, you're always working it out, man.

• 39:39Tim Ferriss?

  You must be a complete, you must appear to be a complete lunatic in the car when you're stuck in traffic, because I would imagine in my head at least, that you're doing that kind of stuff nonstop.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  Well, look, I was working on a bit, my father has become my fan now because he's seen my standup and, and he also features pretty prominently in the next, uh, next hour and he, to his credit, it was great because my mother and my sister, and I think my wife were yelling at me about, uh, what to buy at the grocery store. And then they were asking me some terrible question that I didn't care about, about, I don't know, do you wanna go to Menchie's with the kids and, uh, something, I don't know. And I wasn't paying attention. And my sister goes, as usual, Brian's here, but he's not really here. And in fact, I was, I was trying to work on a bit. And so I was going, yeah, yeah, Menchie's,

• 40:32Speaker 00

  yeah. Okay, supermarket. Like, I give a shit about that stuff. I'm trying to, I'm trying to work out what an ostrich does. I, I don't know what I was doing, some, some, I can never tell them that that's more important, that me running like an ostrich. In fact, I think I was working out this bit where I'm in a tower with no pants on and a woman's over my shoulder and she's like, oh my God, your body feels like warm moving wood. And I don't know what I was like going through this, I'm, I'm mowing her captors down with a machine gun, I got bandoleros, my hair's wet, it's in my eyes. I'm writing this ridiculous thing. I think there's a horse rearing in the background. It's, it's not something I can really, and

• 41:13Speaker 00

  this is literally, I'm, I know it's gonna be a great bit, but I can't tell them that. And my father, my father was so great. My father goes, he's not here because he doesn't wanna, he's not interested in your grocery list. The guy makes his living off his imagination. He's obviously coming up with funny stuff that the country, that the world's gonna laugh at. Leave him alone. I'm the shopping. And it was just great. That was, I was full circle. Thank you. I'm getting paid for what I got in trouble for my whole life. My father used to pull his hair out when he'd get my report card. Because in fact, I was fantasizing about being a professional skier or slash tennis player or anybody I was not. Uh, and guess what? It pays the bills now, so.

• 41:56Tim Ferriss?

  So this is not a perfect segue, but I just have a million questions I want to ask you. You are very well read and very curious in my experience with you. I mean, you've read an incredible number of books and really have a very sharp spider sense for exploring new ideas and subjects you know nothing about. If you did very poorly in school, and I'm not saying these are mutually exclusive, but how did you develop that curiosity and appetite for reading? Because it's not always that you find those two go hand in hand.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  Well, I was always curious, and I grew up all over the world until I was 14. I lived in seven different countries, right? So Lebanon and Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and Greece and India and the Philippines. So I was always, I was exposed to so many different cultures. My father was a huge reader, as was my mother, and they were both pretty educated. But I think that I always had a great deal of trouble until I was a sophomore in college with what you would call concentration. The idea that you've got to sit down and furrow your brow and concentrate. I didn't know what that meant. Nobody had explained the art of learning to me.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  The one thing I was very into, I went to college to wrestle, hurt my back, and then I saw these guys kicking and punching these Taekwondo guys, but they were fighting full contact, and I went, I want to do that. So that began my journey into Taekwondo, and I started fighting. And my teacher was teaching me how to jab the bag, sort of a boxing jab. And I said, I have trouble concentrating, I'm getting seeds or something. And he said, he was Korean, and he said, hit that bag again? And I hit the bag, and he goes, did you concentrate on that? I said, no. And he goes, same mindset, reading's the same way. Just let it come into your body. Stop trying to, stop trying to force it in, just let it come in.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  That began the journey of sort of learning by, learning in a passive way, I suppose. It turned the process on its ear. I started to, I guess, use the mental model I used for Taekwondo, and I applied it to my academics.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  But I think it also came from perspective. I think that I, I, I, the turning point was always the fact that I, I realized there were huge deficits in my learning. I didn't, I wasn't familiar with the Greeks. I wanted to know where I came from. I wanted to know who I owed thanks to. Socrates and Plato and Aristotle. What was, what was the Bible? Why did the Bible have such authority for a thousand years, or you know, even thousands of years? Why? What was the, what was the contribution of the Hebrews, the Jews? I mean, the Old Testament and their laws? What was Roman law about? These were the things that I, I always knew that I should know about these things. I knew that there were

• 45:09Speaker 00

  people who had done all the thinking for me. I knew that it was probably a good idea to immerse myself in the best that had been thought and said. Because I was, I was just aware of how, and I think, look, it's, it's exactly like why you, uh, uh, you should do sports. Sports teach you how tough you're not. Uh, they also teach you how tough you are. You need both. You, you need what's called perspective. And maybe that's kind of what, what I was inundated with before I, I began that journey.

• 45:44Tim Ferriss?

  When, when, when did you start pursuing comedy seriously? At what age?

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Well, you know, as I think about it, I was moved to so many different locations. I, I didn't live anywhere for more than really a two years. Think about this, until I was thirty. I mean, I, I remember when I bought my first house, I think I was thirty-two, and it was in Venice. It was the first time I'd ever put anything on a wall. And I was a real nomad. Well, what that meant was I was always moved and put into a whole different circumstance. Usually I was, I was taken to a, a new continent. I'd be in a school for two years in Greece or in Lebanon, and my dad would come home and say, "Guess what? We got transferred to Saudi Arabia." And I was like, "I don't know what Saudi Arabia

• 46:33Speaker 00

  is, but I have a dog and this sucks and I don't, I miss all my friends." "Sorry, get on a plane, we're leaving." And I, I would be thrown into a new set of circumstances. Well, there are two ways you get guys to like you. One is sports. I was a pretty good athlete, not a great athlete, but pretty good. And the other is get them to laugh at you. And those are the two things I got good at. I I didn't want to be the last guy picked on the team. And by the way, you'll have fun with me on your team because I will make you laugh the whole fucking time. And that's really where my my training as a standup comic um started. And, you know, it my life isn't much different. I get up on stage in different cities all over the, you know, now in Canada as well, and probably in India pretty soon.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  I don't know them, but they're all looking at me and they need me to make them laugh for an hour. Nothing new, nothing new here, man. I'm just more honed. It's just a it's just a little more polished than it used to be. Um, there it is.

• 47:29Tim Ferriss?

  What was your first? What was your first paid gig for comedy?

• 47:34Speaker 00

  Oh, boy. Um, I I think my first real paid gig was in London. My buddy uh had started an online bank and flew me to London to do standup in a tent. And uh, oh, I was I was uh, I I don't think I've ever performed to that that kind of deafening silence. It was it was horrifying. Uh, I was like, I'll check or something, and that was fine. But, oh, I mean, it was horrifying. People didn't really look at me afterward. He was this American trying to do bad jokes. So, uh, uh, you know, you gotta have those experiences.

• 48:18Tim Ferriss?

  What made it so bad in retrospect?

• 48:21Speaker 00

  The mic didn't work that well, and my jokes just didn't seem to want to fly. Brits have a subtle sensibility. These were, look, you you gotta, if you go to Britain as an American comic, you better be good and experienced. Uh, I wasn't either of those two. And it got quiet quick, but I went, I just forged through. I forged through. I was basically on fire, maybe the most uncomfortable I've ever been in my life. Uh, and and and by the way, the one compliment I got wasn't one, she, a woman said, uh, she was beautiful. I think I was trying to pick her up, and it didn't work. And she looked at me and said, you know, you're really, um, I don't mean to sound bad, but you're really like, you're very American.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  I mean, you're very loud and very big. Has anyone ever told you that? No, they haven't, but obviously this isn't going anywhere.

• 49:19Tim Ferriss?

  What was the first, what was the, the first gig that comes to mind where you thought to yourself,

• 49:28Tim Ferriss?

  "Holy shit, that fucking worked. I can be, I can be really good at this." I mean, what's, when you came off kind of glowing and really feeling like it worked, what was that, what was, uh, what's the first experience that came, that comes to mind? That fits that description?

• 49:44Speaker 00

  That was a place, I think it was the West Side Theater in New York City. And it was down in the Village. And I just, I had this crowd. And I hit one. I hit one. It was the first time where things started to gel. And I'd been working all summer on it. And I did, uh, I'd just been working all summer. And it was a packed crowd. And I got up and I did about 20 minutes, which was an eternity back then for me. And they just kept laughing harder and harder and harder. And when I got offstage, uh, some of them stood up.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  And my girlfriend at the time was there. And boy, did I, I just, I went, "Oh my God, oh my God." So if I just sit and work all the time alone in a room, this is what happens. And that was the end of it, man. That was, I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe, I see, I still couldn't believe I was able to do standup comedy. The great surprise of my life still is the fact that I make money doing this. And, and by the way, you forget how you came up with the ideas. You even forget how you structured them. You just know that they, they become part of you after a while. Uh, you know, a heartbreak is letting go of a lot of your great bits. You can't do them anymore because you've already cut them and, you know, it's not like music. You just gotta keep inventing.

• 51:09Tim Ferriss?

  People don't want to hear the, the greats. They don't want to hear you rehash all of your old material.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  No, because it's a magic trick. And once they know what's coming, it ain't going to be the same. Music is different. The Rolling Stones have been singing "Start Me Up" for the past 30 fucking years. Well, I don't got it so easy. I gotta come up with "Start Me Up" every, every time I cut a new, uh, one hour. So.

• 51:28Tim Ferriss?

  What were the ingredients, do you think, that, uh, I'll try to keep my two-part questions to a minimum, but what were the ingredients that went into that first? See, it sounds like a home run in New York. And then the second piece is, how many, how many times had you rehearsed parts of that performance before that night?

• 51:50Speaker 00

  You know, probably my whole life. I mean, I think, I think the ingredients, it was, it was, you know, my subconscious and my conscious and the years I had been, you know, the things I'd thrown out there. And I just somehow was able to kind of cast a net and then sieve through all the shit. And I just kind of, it's just a process of whittling down who you really are. And I guess whittling down, what makes you laugh? I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know the answer. It's a surprise. It was just a huge surprise, a wonderful surprise.

• 52:35Tim Ferriss?

  Dig it. No, I dig it. What, what book or books had the biggest, I'm just thinking to your, your school experience and after that, what, what books have had the largest impact on your life, whether that's your twenties, thirties, forties?

• 52:50Speaker 00

  You know, look, I mean, I went through, I would go through my, my phases. I remember reading, you know, Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead by, by Ayn Rand. And that's good fodder for a young man. It's such these bold, stark characters. You could even call them Christ figures. And you think to yourself, I want to be that. And of course, I read Nietzsche, you know, about Nietzsche, you know, that this is the genealogy of morals, etc. I mean, this is bold, stark stuff for a young man, where, where the truths and truisms are really cut and dry in a lot of ways. And, and it's just, it's just like kind of the equivalent of, I guess, you know, intellectual red meat.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  But then I got into Joseph Campbell and the power of myth and hero of a thousand faces and these kinds of things. And Joseph Campbell was the first person to really open my eyes to maybe that sort of compassionate side of life or of thought. I just loved how he was a biblical scholar, he was an eastern philosophical scholar, and he would often compare and contrast the two. And that's what I really resonated with, I guess. So Campbell, Campbell was the guy who really kind of put it all together for me. And not in a way

• 54:11Speaker 00

  I could really put my finger on, but certainly in a way where I kind of, he gave this wonderful, it made you just glad to be alive, how vast this world is and how similar and how different we are. Maybe that's kind of the first guy I remember really blowing my mind. But then, you know, there are books like Josh Waitzkin's book, The Art of Learning.

• 54:36Tim Ferriss?

  Great book.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wish there were some of those books I wish I had read when I was way younger. By the way, I love The Four Hour Body. I loved what you did with that. I love The Four Hour Work Week. I love the philosophy. I like the journey you took and how you broke it down. Those are the kinds of things I wish I had read when I was much younger. It would have made my schooling a lot easier, that's for damn sure. So, my God, the books, so many books, so many authors. I love Somerset Maugham. I went through all those, I mean, you know, listen, listen. I mean, The Symposium, Plato's Dialogues, I mean, come on.

• 55:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, those guys, those guys, it's just, it's amazing to look at some of the ancients and think about the persistence of their work.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Forget it. Seneca and Socrates and Plato and Aristotle. When you read them, when you read these men who were writing this stuff 3,500 years ago, whatever it was, 2,500 years ago, you Are profoundly aware of the fact that there is a responsibility to being a human being. There are questions you must wrestle with on your own as a human being. And technology and the creature comforts and antibiotics and x-rays and plenty to eat. Those things ultimately probably aren't going to help you. They're going to make you a lot more comfortable and maybe let you think longer. And God bless and thank God we have them.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  But there is a responsibility to being a human being, to being an ethical human being.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  And to being a whole and complete human being that can be, that nobody can really take, take, help you with. You've got to kind of, you've got to go down that, that rabbit hole yourself.

• 56:25Tim Ferriss?

  No, definitely. And the, like you said, the, the material possessions and success are not going to answer those questions for you. Uh, there's a, there's a, there's a really good book that I've been exploring recently. It's about Seneca and it's called Dying Every Day. Seneca at the Court of Nero is just published in the last year.

• 56:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that sounds great.

• 56:47Tim Ferriss?

  But I've been, I've been really enjoying it. Uh, let me ask if I could shift gears a little bit, a couple of, uh, rapid fire questions. Uh, the first is, what's your, what's your drink of choice at a bar? You walk into a bar, what do you order?

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Uh, usually a Pilsner, a cold Pilsner. Preferably something like Peroni or Moretti. I like the rice beers in Japan. Uh, that's what I like, but I'm a wine drinker. I like, I like my red wine and I like my red wine to have some age on it. And, uh, it's harder to find in a bar.

• 57:23Tim Ferriss?

  What type of red wine do you like?

• 57:25Speaker 00

  I like the old world wines. I like, I like primarily French wines. There are some great California wines, of course, and great Italian wines. But I, you know, I, I, there's nothing like a French Bordeaux or a French Burgundy with some age on it. Nothing like it.

• 57:39Tim Ferriss?

  Who are some of your, who's your favorite person or favorite people to follow on Twitter?

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Oh, by the way, I also like to drink raw goat milk.

• 57:50Speaker 00

  After a workout. My favorite people to follow on Twitter, I don't have anybody. I don't really follow, I don't follow a lot of people on Twitter at all. That's what people laugh at me about. I think Taking Hikes Seriously is one of them. Friedrich Hayek wrote The Road to Serfdom, who is a great economist. I like, I like, I follow them. That's about it. And Tim Ferriss, of course.

• 58:15Tim Ferriss?

  Well, thank you, sir.

• 58:17Tim Ferriss?

  Favorite movies or documentaries?

• 58:20Speaker 00

  Well, I just read, I just watched Fed Up, which is a very new documentary, which I recommend to everybody about the food industry. And I think the food industry, Mars and Coca-Cola and Nestle and Kraft, sorry, but I think that their behavior and how they target children with their unhealthy foods, with their sugar and sodium, I think they are going to be exposed. And I think that we're going to look at their, what they're doing in the school lunch programs, etc. I think we're going to, we're going to compare them very much to how the tobacco industry was behaving back in the day when they were denying that their product caused cancer. There is no question that the, that, that the enemy in our foods is sugar and processed foods.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  And I think that's what's causing type 2 diabetes in children as young as eight years old. Shame on them. Shame on them. Shame on them for saying that their soft drinks, like Coca-Cola is, doesn't contribute to obesity. I don't think there's anything wrong with one Coke a day necessarily. I don't drink it. And I, and I'm, I'm a free market guy. But I don't think they're behaving ethically and I don't believe they're, the, the, the way they've hijacked the Food and Nutrition Board, the way they've stacked the deck with their own scientists. Shame on those scientists and shame on the food companies. So that's a great documentary. Sorry to get on my soapbox. But I think a huge problem, and I think we'd solve a lot of our healthcare issues if people in this country learn how to eat properly.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  Um, the enemy is not fat, as you know, Tim, it's probably sugar.

• 59:55Tim Ferriss?

  Agreed, yeah.

• 59:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, uh, so Fed Up was a great documentary. Um, I'd have to think, I mean, there's so many good documentaries, man. I, I don't know. I'd have to think about that.

• 1:00:05Tim Ferriss?

  No, Fed Up, Fed Up is a good recommendation. Uh, I, uh, I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of the co-opted, uh, science, which, uh, people can read a book called Bad Science, which is by a doctor named Ben Goldacre. It's great.

• 1:00:20Speaker 00

  Great book, yeah.

• 1:00:21Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, if you want to get an idea of how, uh, the studies can be, uh, tortured to, to say whatever companies want them to say.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  And Bad Pharma. He also wrote a book called Bad Pharma, I read, which was also very good.

• 1:00:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, very smart guy. And, uh, if you're looking for a counterpoint, there's actually a very interesting organization that I'm involved with called NUSI, uh, N U S I dot org, which is, uh, independently funded, uh, for studies specific to nutrition, for some of these unanswered, or at least not conclusively answered, questions, uh, which is, which is pretty awesome. It's, it's been nicknamed the Manhattan Project for nutrition, which is pretty cool. Uh, let's see, uh,

• 1:01:08Tim Ferriss?

  what's the first face that comes to mind when you think punchable?

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  Oh, Jesus. Um, well, after I saw Fed Up, probably anybody who's, who's, anybody who's responsible for, for getting their, their unhealthy products and for getting, uh, Congress to say that french fries and pizza counts as a vegetable in our school lunch programs. I'd like to fucking line those guys up and sit down in my punch. I'm talking about a right, and I can hit. I'll show you on a mitt sometime. I'd like to sit down on my punch and just, just break a couple jaws, those assholes. That's something mine. And I'm, again, hey, I ain't some, I'm not some left wing guy who believes in a lot of government interference. I believe in the free market. They're not living in a free market, those people. Uh, they're not.

• 1:01:56Tim Ferriss?

  So just, just to clarify for, for folks out there and me probably as well. So sitting down on your punch means really kind of dropping down and, and torquing your hip into some nice follow through.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  Grinding those, yeah, ground that, that back foot and that front foot on the balls of your foot and just go, just turn that body and keep that, keep that, keep everything loose. That, just think of your, your fist is kind of a stone and your arms are rubber band and just sit down, boom, and punch. Yes. Yeah. My, my left hook is pretty nasty too. So I don't know what I'd rather do. Maybe just, maybe left hook followed with an uppercut, something like that. Well, we'll go into it.

• 1:02:33Tim Ferriss?

  See if I can set that up for us. Uh, I would enjoy that as well. I'll film it. Uh, what book do you most often give as a gift or books?

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  I want to just, let me back up because I got to say one more thing. I read a book called Fiasco. You know, the, the architects of the Iraq war, how's that going for us, by the way? Who told us that it would happen very quickly? I mean, Dick Cheney was just at the American Enterprise Institute saying that the president must understand that we are in a war and we have to fight this war for as long as it takes. Hey, Dick. Um, okay. Thanks. Uh, thanks so much. Uh, you told us that we'd be welcomed as liberators. So did you, Paul Wolfowitz and, and Richard Pearl and Douglas Feath and Michael Vadim and all you neo cons. Thank you, guys. Uh, you guys said we should go into Iraq and I kind of listened to you. I mean, I guess he had weapons of mass destruction. Apparently this was going to be a very quick thing and an orderly thing. Um,

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  uh, Paul Bremer, who didn't, none of these people knew anything about the history of Iraq or their, and now I'd like to hear, can you guys at least say, hey, maybe we were wrong? Maybe we screwed up a little bit? I mean ISIS, I don't know that ISIS would have happened. I mean, Iraq doesn't seem to be doing that well. And it's 13 years later or something, or it's 11 years? I'm not sure. We must be, I went in 2003. So I'd like to line those guys up as well. If you could get those guys in a line, I'd like to punch them in the face. I don't want to kill anybody. I just want to hit them and feel them, just feel their. Jawbreak with my my my two my two front knuckles. It'd be a lot of fun.

• 1:03:58Tim Ferriss?

  I think what I'll do since since I've got I've got some some ideas now is I'll I'll do a Kickstarter campaign and I will pay them all speaking fees. I will bring in the heads of all of these sort of sugar laden product corporations and then the politicians and what I what I I think I can I think I can solve your boxing problem. So I'm going to take I'm going to alternate sort of fake scientist politician, corporate head politician. All the politicians will be on one knee. So so you can straight right and then low body hook to the head. The politicians, then you can just work your way down the line.

• 1:04:39Speaker 00

  Because all those architects, all the the people that created the intellectual scaffolding and and and you know, argument for the Iraq war, none of them have done a day in the military. And I would even go so far as to say they've never done a sport in their life. Dick Cheney, I guarantee he's never done a sport and he sure as hell has never taken a punch to the face or punched anybody in the face. So I'd like to see how he reacts to what real pain is about. Fuck you, Dick Cheney. Anyway, keep going. Keep going.

• 1:05:07Tim Ferriss?

  No, I like it. I like you're getting fired up. It's good. It's good.

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  I'm a libertarian. I believe in like, you know, the free markets. I'm not, you know, I'm not a I'm not a I don't work for the Democratic Party. Keep going.

• 1:05:18Tim Ferriss?

  What what what on an unrelated note, what book or books are you most likely to give as a gift?

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

  You're going to think I'm plugging you, but I I probably have recommended The Art of Learning and The Four Hour Body. I'm not kidding, more than any other book. I just think I just think it's fantastic. And for young people, I recommend The Four Hour Work Week. I just love. I just love the possibility and the optimism in those books. And I love that you've kind of lived it and and what you do. So I actually start with those books a lot of the time. So, you know, I I it sounds like I'm shamelessly plugging you, but I am a fan. So.

• 1:05:55Tim Ferriss?

  No, I appreciate it, man. Thank you. I and you know, I have to say also the. The optimism, it's really standing on the shoulders of giants and I've had a lot of positive influences in my life, whether virtual by books by Seneca and people like that, or through interactions with mentors and teachers. And I just feel like there's such, as you mentioned, an overabundance of cynicism which leads to sort of an inactive apathy. You know, I can't do anything, I can't make a difference, therefore I will do nothing. That's really, I feel, reached a level of epidemic in the US in particular.

• 1:06:40Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm not, I'm not quite sure why that is.

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  I agree, I agree with you, Tim. And I think, I don't know the reason either, but I would imagine it's because in many ways, these problems are rather insidious. I think that they're, it hasn't come to a head. I don't think that we really, it's a little bit like when you're in California and they say, we're in a serious drought, conserve water. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still taking my shower every day and I'll probably let the water run when I brush my teeth because, eh, you know, we're not really going to run out of water. But, you know, the, the, the real problems, the real deficits, the things that are going to come to a head, a lot of times are not, they're not sexy,

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  they don't have, they're not very colorful, they're not that visible, unless you know where to look, right? So the root, the roots of the problem, when you start talking to people about campaign finance reform, and how money in politics is probably one of the reasons nothing seems to work in this country, or one of the, one of the main problems with the way our government is run, where Washington is probably less concerned with your problems, it's more of a battleground between two different corporations. I mean, in 2010, the biggest issue was swipe fees, swipe fees with ATMs. That's what the, the war on the floor was, was swipe fees. How much should banks should be allowed to charge

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  somebody when they go to an ATM? Well, that, that's because that, that was affecting two large corporations' bottom line, not yours and mine.

• 1:08:14Speaker 00

  When you start talking to people about campaign finance reform, you start talking to them about those kinds of things, it's, their eyes glaze over because it doesn't have immediate relevance to their life right now. And I think that's what we're dealing with, apathy. As long as people have enough to eat and they feel safe, um, you're gonna have a tough time.

• 1:08:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's, you know, it's tough because, uh, as someone who wants to be able to catalyze, uh, sort of massive positive action, it's, it's, it's a fine line to walk. Where you want to inspire people and show them possibilities, you also want to show them the downsides of taking no action, uh, which is a decision. It's not that you're postponing decisions. If you choose to do nothing, you've made a decision to do nothing. And, uh, it's, it's a, it's a challenge for me sometimes to decide uh, whether I can get a better response by focusing on the positive or by focusing on the consequences of doing nothing, which are negative typically. Um, but, um, let's see, dogs, dogs or cats? Do you have, do you have any, uh, any pets?

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  I'm a dog guy.

• 1:09:17Tim Ferriss?

  What kind of, do you own any dogs?

• 1:09:19Speaker 00

  I, I'm, I've always had pit bulls, um, and, uh, I just love them. I just love that bully face and I love their spirit. Uh, my, my female dog, my pit bull just died and, uh, I've got kids, they want another dog, but I'm kind of like, oh yeah, we won't get a dog for a while. When you have kids, you know, that's enough.

• 1:09:37Tim Ferriss?

  Now, if, alright, so that pit bull, uh, if you had to, if you had to select a, a dog off the menu in another country to eat for dinner, what would you, what would you choose?

• 1:09:51Speaker 00

  That's interesting. Um, well, probably something kind of, probably a corgi. I can roast up, small enough to season and stuff in my oven. I'm sorry, I love corgis. In fact, if I get a dog, it'll probably be a corgi, but damn, they look delicious.

• 1:10:05Tim Ferriss?

  Just, just stick a little crab apple in the mouth?

• 1:10:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, if a corgi had a beak, we'd eat the fucker. They had a muzzle, so now all of a sudden it's cute, I guess. It's funny how that works. But yeah, I would, I would 100% eat a corgi, I think. A chihuahua would probably taste more like whale. Um, not a whole lot of meat on it, but I would eat. Um, yeah, but a corgi. I'm going hunting with Joe Rogan.

• 1:10:35Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, you are?

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, and we're going to Alaska, October 1st to the 8th with Steve Rinella. You've done this before.

• 1:10:42Tim Ferriss?

  Very nice. You're going to caribou hunting?

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  Uh, we're gonna go deer hunting, actually.

• 1:10:46Tim Ferriss?

  Deer hunting.

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Tim Ferriss?

  I, I need to get back outdoors for a few weeks of, of non-electronics time. I really just had such a phenomenal experience with Steve in Alaska when we went to hunt caribou. And I was never a hunter. Uh, and I know you're aware of this, but um, it's really an eye-opening experience to be taken through the ropes with someone who's very responsible and takes, takes what they do as it relates to nature as seriously as Steve does.

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, he knows so much about animal behavior and everything else. It's incredible. I'm not a big hunter. I, I don't like camping. I miss my cappuccino, but you know, I'll do it. I just, again, it's the same reason I box. Getting punched in the face just reminds me of my own mortality, how tough I'm not. And it just keeps me a little harder. And, and I think hunting once a year in a place like Alaska and freezing my ass off for eight days is good for me.

• 1:11:41Tim Ferriss?

  Have you ever listened to Hardcore History, the podcast?

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  I've not, and I need to get that guy on my podcast. I've had him recommended to me many, many times.

• 1:11:49Tim Ferriss?

  You could, you could start with listening to his series called Wrath of the Cons, but it talks about the hardest people imaginable and how they can get soft. And it was just, it was such a perfect uh, metaphor for a lot of what I'm trying to reverse in my own life, as it just becomes easier and more seductive to try to take the path of less resistance with, which, with a lot of this stuff and using age as an excuse or whatever it might be. Um, been thinking a lot about that. Do you have any morning or evening rituals that you do consistently?

• 1:12:23Speaker 00

  Ah.

• 1:12:23Tim Ferriss?

  Just patterns.

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  I, I, when I had my dog, one of the things I love to do is I would just walk my dog and that's where I would think and write. Um, but I actually, believe it or not, I, I, I sound so LA. I, almost every morning I drink green tea and I do some yoga. You know, that's just my routine, man. I, I just, once you do it, you feel really great. Um, so that, that probably my.

• 1:12:48Tim Ferriss?

  Do you do the yoga in a class or do you do that by yourself?

• 1:12:53Speaker 00

  I do it by myself, usually naked on a wood floor in front of a mirror and I just marvel at my body, Tim.

• 1:12:58Tim Ferriss?

  Just do cobra pose for hours at a time?

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  Sometimes I just stand there and go, wow, thank you, God.

• 1:13:06Speaker 00

  Too much?

• 1:13:07Tim Ferriss?

  No, never too much, not such a thing.

• 1:13:09Speaker 00

  A combination of, you know, Bikram and Ashtanga, whatever it is, I don't know.

• 1:13:14Tim Ferriss?

  And, and pumping iron.

• 1:13:15Speaker 00

  It becomes political, my God, oh, we don't do Bikram, we do Ashtanga flow, do you? All right, you win, I guess.

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  Classing for an hour and a half is too long, so I don't do classes, I'll do 20 minutes and I'm done.

• 1:13:28Tim Ferriss?

  Got it, yeah, that makes sense. When you think of the word successful, who's the first person who comes to mind for you?

• 1:13:35Speaker 00

  Well, you know, anyone who is original. I think the, the name of the game is innovation and originality. So in, in my field, you know, I, I, as far as actors are concerned, I mean, Daniel Day-Lewis does things I don't, I don't know how he does what he does. Uh, Christian Bale is the same way. But I think anybody who surprises and shocks me with what they're able to come up with. Usually anybody that comes up with something out of nothing. I love the visionaries. Steve Jobs, the late Steve Jobs was somebody I would consider very successful. He changed, uh, he changed a lot. So, um, people like that, people like that.

• 1:14:17Speaker 00

  I like journalists, man. I like, uh, I, I love, uh, what's his name? Lawrence Wright, who wrote, uh, The Looming Tower and Going Clear. Uh, you know, uh, I love Ken Burns, the great documentary maker who wrote, you know, who created the, the documentary Jazz and Baseball. Those people that give us perspective, those people that are able to put it all together. The guy who wrote Fiasco, I can't remember his name, but these are the people that really, um, that's what I consider successful. They are really making a difference. They really are. I mean, it takes guts to write the way they do and to come up with a point of view and put it all together and be that fair. Be that fair, man. Um, th- those are the people that I think are incredible, you know?

• 1:14:59Tim Ferriss?

  If, if I were to talk to your, your closest friends, uh, colleagues, family, et cetera, and ask them what you're world-class at, what do you think they might say?

• 1:15:09Speaker 00

  Oh, you know, probably, uh, uh, probably being very social, uh, probably making people feel good about themselves. I just like people. I think that's probably what... Humor, humor. I think I, I, I, I think I've always made everybody around me laugh a lot. I'm proud of that. But I've always been, um, somebody said something, Doug Davidoff said, you know, at your wedding, one of the things that, that I thought was amazing is that you have, one guy doesn't have any money and another guy's a hundred million dollars and you've never, you've never made any, you've never had criteria for your friendships or for the people that you have around you. It's just genuinely who you really like. And I, and I'm proud of that. I, I, I'm not a, I don't have, uh, you don't have to have done anything.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  You just have to be somebody I think is interesting, generous, kind, and funny, and, uh, you're my friend. So, you know?

• 1:15:59Tim Ferriss?

  Related to that, uh, as you've gotten older, what has become more important or less important to you?

• 1:16:06Speaker 00

  Balance has become more important. Balance.

• 1:16:09Tim Ferriss?

  What type of balance?

• 1:16:11Speaker 00

  I think, um, I think that's kind of the idea. Fulfillment and meaning and being effective. There is intent in life, but then there is bottom line, there is something called being effective, changing minds, changing minds and having a positive influence, specifically what I mean by that is being an inspiration. One of the cool things about being 47 is that I find that I have young people come up to me and say, "Hey, I find your podcast inspiring," or "I find what you're doing inspiring," or "You recommended something, I read it, it changed my life." "I like being in a position of service." Those are the important things.

• 1:16:56Speaker 00

  Service and all of those things, when you put other things and people first, I think it gives you balance. I think that's very important.

• 1:17:06Tim Ferriss?

  That's a good answer. I have a book recommendation for you, I'm sure you get a lot of them, but this book is by Primo Levi, it's called, well, it's a combination of two books actually, "If This Is a Man" and "The Truce," but I think that, given that answer, you would absolutely love this book. One of my favorite books is recommended to me by David Blaine, who has, I believe, hundreds of copies that he gives out.

• 1:17:30Speaker 00

  He's a good friend of mine, I've known David since he was 17.

• 1:17:32Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, no kidding, alright, well, then you can ask him all about it, maybe you can tell me even more, maybe you have more background than I do.

• 1:17:38Speaker 00

  Well, David will tell you, and he said this on the podcast, we did a podcast together, and David said, "I was the first guy to get him to start reading." Because I said to him, he was younger and we were in theater school, and he was 17, and I said, "He was hungry, this kid was hungry." And I said, "Surround yourself with people who will make you grow, and the difference between, you know, the people you admire and everybody else are the people that read." And he never forgot that. So, yeah, it was pretty cool, so I'm proud of that.

• 1:18:09Tim Ferriss?

  Well, he recommended this book to me, which is a masterpiece of a book, or a combination of books.

• 1:18:17Speaker 00

  "If This Is a Man" by Primo Levi and "Truce"?

• 1:18:19Tim Ferriss?

  "The Truce," they're very often combined in one book.

• 1:18:22Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:18:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, just incredible.

• 1:18:26Tim Ferriss?

  Meaningful, beautiful prose with a lot of lessons. I mean, hundreds of underlines. Really, really impressive stuff.

• 1:18:36Tim Ferriss?

  So I have two more questions for you.

• 1:18:40Tim Ferriss?

  The second to last question is if, if you could give your younger self one piece of advice, or two, what would it be?

• 1:18:50Speaker 00

  Oh, boy. Buy property in Venice.

• 1:18:57Speaker 00

  Oh, boy. And, and, oh, boy, you know, um, gosh, it's, I thought about that so much. And I don't know if it would have had an effect. I guess focus, work harder. But I worked pretty hard, man. I just was interested in a lot of stuff. I mean, you know what? I should have wrestled in college.

• 1:19:24Speaker 00

  I know that's lame, but I don't know, man.

• 1:19:26Tim Ferriss?

  Would it ruin your beautiful actor's ears?

• 1:19:29Speaker 00

  Well, that's, I believe me, I was always nervous about getting cauliflower ears. So, you know, I wrestled long enough and never got it. Then I did enough jujitsu. But yeah, maybe. And, or maybe I would have had an injury. I don't know, man. I, gosh, golly, I, I, I don't know.

• 1:19:45Tim Ferriss?

  No, no problem, no problem.

• 1:19:47Speaker 00

  I thought about that question a great deal, a great deal. And, you know, I would, would I have studied abroad a little longer? Would I have played tennis more? Would I have boxed earlier? I don't know, man.

• 1:20:01Tim Ferriss?

  If you, if you, if you removed, if you took you out of the equation, in a sense, and we're giving a college commencement speech, right? So these kids are, I don't know, I'm, I'm too, I'm too far past it, whatever. Somewhere between 18 and 22. What advice might you give in that commencement?

• 1:20:23Speaker 00

  Well, I would say that if you are searching for status, and if you are doing things because there's an audience for it, you're probably barking up the wrong tree. I would tell them that I live in a town where people spend 20 years scratching and crawling to get to the top of the wall, and usually they don't like the view. And that's because their value system was misplaced to begin with.

• 1:20:52Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:53Speaker 00

  I think that's what I would tell them. I would say, "Listen to yourself. Listen to yourself. Follow your bliss," as Joseph Campbell, to bring it back around, said. "And there is great security and insecurity. We are wired and programmed to do what's safe and what's sensible." I don't think that's the way to go. I think the way to go is to do things, um, I think you do things because they, they are just things you have to do, or because it's a calling, or because you want to be, you're idealistic enough to think that you can make a difference in the world. I think you should be a dreamer. I think you should try to make the world a better place. I think you should try to slay dragons. I don't care how big the opponent is.

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  We read about and we admire the people that did things that were basically considered to be impossible, and, and that's what makes the world a better place to live.

• 1:21:45Tim Ferriss?

  That was a damn fine answer. I can't believe, uh, we got to get you on some stages. No, that was, that was...

• 1:21:52Speaker 00

  Behind that, I wish I had a fan that was blowing my hair, although I don't have the kind of hair that...

• 1:21:56Tim Ferriss?

  No, that was, uh, I think that is an excellent place to, to start to wrap this up and be respectful of your time. Obviously, you know, I'm a huge fan of your work, uh, really enjoy our friendship and look forward to many more conversations. Where can people find out more about you, learn what you're up to, check you out?

• 1:22:18Speaker 00

  I, I appreciate it, my friend. Uh, I am going to be, um, I'm at @bryancallen, uh, that's my Twitter and my Instagram, uh, B-R-Y-A-N-C-A-L-L-E-N.

• 1:22:29Speaker 00

  And you can go to briancallen.com to find out where I'm performing. I'm always performing. I've got, I'm coming, I'm going to be in Atlanta in October. This Sunday, I'll be at the Irvine Improv. I'm not in, I wish I was in your neck of the woods sooner than later, but I'm not, Tim. But I'll let you know as soon as I am. And I will be all over the place, man. Gosh, I'm, I'm, I've got such a big, sort of a big schedule, and I'm, I'm not sure exactly where I'll be. But I know I'll be in Atlanta in, in October. But briancallen.com, best way to find me, or tweet at me, or email me at briancallen@gmail. I answer all my emails.

• 1:23:07Tim Ferriss?

  Awesome. Well, I will put all of this into the show notes, guys, including links to everything that you heard about in the conversation. So for those, just go to fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, forward slash podcast, and

• 1:23:21Speaker 00

  And by the way, The Fighter and the Kid is, is, I think, been holding at number one on iTunes in the sports and rec section for eight or nine weeks now. And Tim, you're going to be on that on Monday. So we're excited.

• 1:23:32Tim Ferriss?

  I am, and I'm looking forward to it. I can, I can pull all the skeletons out of the closet and talk about how much my, my joints have atrophied from too many knee bars when I was a young'un. It's gonna be great. But to be continued, I'm sure we'll be having more conversations soon. And thanks so much, Brian.

• 1:23:50Speaker 00

  Tim Ferriss, you're one of my favorite people. I appreciate your time.

• 1:23:52Tim Ferriss?

  All right, buddy. I'll talk to you soon.

• 1:23:54Speaker 00

  All right, bud. See you later.

• 1:24:01Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:24:45Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:25:28Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:26:07Tim Ferriss?

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