#336 - NEW Egyptian Vase Scans Prove the Human Timeline is Wrong | Karoly Poka & Adam Young

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Adam Young & Karoly Poka reveal the latest research and scan measurements on predynastic stone vases & uncover the most precise artifact from ancient Egypt. SPONSORS https://capl.onelink.me/vFut/zralgyl0 - Download CashApp Today! https://www.amentara.com/go/dj - Use code DJ22 for 22% off your first order. https://mizzenandmain.com - Use code code DANNY20 for 20% off. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off EPISODE LINKS Karoly Poka's YouTube channel: @karolypoka https://www.artifactfoundation.org FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Analyzing ancient Egyptian artifacts 03:12 - The most precise granite vase is 5,000 year old 14:40 - The artifact scanning process 19:55 - Petrie's core analysis 31:52 - Could "perfect" vases be manufactured today? 42:52 - Are these vases older than we think? 51:50 - Failed recreation of "perfect" stone vases 59:00 - Explaining the scoop marks 01:02:18 - The most precise object in Egypt 01:11:41 - Why speculation is healthy 01:18:04 - Who controls the Egyptology narrative 01:23:27 - Best theory for how Egyptian vases were made 01:36:05 - Columns & hidden chambers under the pyramid 01:45:48 - Karoly & Adam's next project 01:47:07 - Unexplored zones of the Sahara Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:41Danny Jones?

  First of all, why don't you guys just introduce yourselves?

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Go ahead.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  Thanks for being here or for the opportunity.

• 1:50Danny Jones?

  My pleasure.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  My name is Karoly Póka. I'm an electrical engineer, basically, coming from Hungary.

• 1:59Speaker 03

  I was actually watching and listening to Ben von Kurkweck's videos on Uncharted X when I met these vases, this topic. And I was quite bored in my day job and I was also researching these. And I figured out that probably no one had investigated real museum pieces before. And that's when I, that was the time when I had the idea to list all the Egyptian museums or the museums in Europe with a significant Egyptian collection and write them an email to ask for an opportunity to go there, bring my own equipment and analyze these vases.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  And after I started this little side project, I went on Ben's trip into Egypt. I met Adam and actually we figured out that we have a shared goal and we teamed up. And Adam was the one actually who started this entire investigation like 10, 10 years ago, I guess. And yeah, after the trip, we went to the Petri Museum. We scanned a bunch of these, actually these 3D prints from the most precise vases we found there. And yeah, basically that's how it started, for me at least.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  Adam, how'd you get into this?

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Um, yep. Adam Young, my background's in math and statistical mathematics and I work in finance up in New York, actually, and been interested in this sort of conundrum of our ancient past for a long time, but seeing these objects in person alongside bigger objects like pyramids and other temples, but then the smaller ones are, I would say, as impressive in a different way. I thought that there could be something here that I could, that I could lend my, lend my hand and if not expertise and at least my interest and enthusiasm into. And started analyzing these back in, I think, 2017, along with Chris Dunn's son Alex and a few others.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  We've, we've investigated a number of them that were in private collections and then started making inroads to, to get into more institutional venues like the Cairo Museum and others. And yeah, when I, when I... When I met up with Carey Lee and he joined the foundation, we've been, we've been working on improving a lot of the algorithms and he's put, he's put many months of his life into, um, I think what's really a groundbreaking field. So before the last few years, this had never, this had never been done and it hadn't been an established, it had, there had not been an established procedure for actually applying metrology analysis to ancient artifacts where we didn't know what the design was, where we didn't know what the original schematic or intention was. Uh, so it was, it was a new field.

• 4:47Danny Jones?

  So what's this? Can you explain what this is? What's going on with this vase right here? This, where, when is this vase from? Where did you get it? And what's significant about this thing?

• 4:54Speaker 02

  So we call that affectionately the OG vase. That was one of the first that I analyzed. It wasn't the actual first, but it was the first that exhibited precision that was inexplorable.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  It's traditionally dated to around 2900 B.C. It was found in a second or third dynasty tomb, hence the, the dating attribution. Um, it was in a private collection in London for a while and then I, I purchased it, uh, just from an antiquities dealer. I think like 12, 13 years ago, roughly speaking. So these were not that rare. I mean, they were exported from Egypt by the thousands.

• 5:29Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  And you can, you know, you can talk to any antiquities lawyer that would confirm that. They, some of them, when we were in the museum, we were in the Turin Museum, uh, two months ago, or was it back in May? And they, one of their pieces, yeah. So one of their pieces was a Saqqara vessel from the step pyramid that they obtained in 1896. So that's 25 years before Loyet, who is the, who is the most famous one that was, that was credited with, with excavating most of them. So, you know, this has been a, this has been an ongoing fascination in, in Egypt is the antiquities trade. The ancient Greeks and Romans were coming here and bringing things back with them.

• 6:08Danny Jones?

  Right. So, um, this, so this was from under the step pyramid, you said?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  This one, I don't know.

• 6:15Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  We don't know the exact tomb.

• 6:17Danny Jones?

  But this is the, this is, what, what's going on here on this diagram? This is a scan that you guys did of it?

• 6:21Speaker 03

  So first, it was scanned with a structured light, I think, in twenty or

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Twenty seventeen.

• 6:29Speaker 03

  Seventeen, yeah. And then he did a CT scan on this. So the CT scan will give you the most accurate representation.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Computerized tomography scan?

• 6:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. It's shooting X-rays through the object. And it will give you very detailed micron, really micron level

• 6:44Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  representation.

• 6:46Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:46Speaker 03

  And this is the analysis of that CT scan. Uh, here you can see on the left side, the sample points per slice. So basically, the way we analyze this is to slice, slice it up into very thin horizontal slices. One slice here is twenty micron high, basically. That's a slice thickness. And you can see the sample points per slice here on, on, on this chart. And here, the root mean square distance error of those points per slice. So basically, we slice them up and we fit a perfect circle on every slice.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  And we measure how much those points in the scan data deviate from the perfect circle.

• 7:32Danny Jones?

  Okay. How many slices?

• 7:34Speaker 03

  Uh, we have a little bit more than six thousand slices.

• 7:40Danny Jones?

  Six thousand slices?

• 7:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:42Danny Jones?

  And this thing is roughly, what'd you say, six inches tall? Seven inches tall, something like that?

• 7:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah, about that.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  So we are measuring every little slice and the median root mean square distance. So every slice will get like a number.

• 7:57Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 7:57Speaker 03

  What's, what's the root mean squared? It's, it's like an averaged deviation, basically, per slice. And we pick the median, because if we would pick the average, every damaged part will throw that away. Or, or will significantly modify. And it's, so the mean is not robust to outliers. That's what I'm trying to say. That's why we picked the median. It's a little bit better in this regard. And we found the median root mean square distance of this waste, sixteen microns. It's like six or seven ten thousandths of an inch.

• 8:35Danny Jones?

  The median.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, the median. But as you can see here on the right side, on the right plot, it's quite consistent. It's not zoomed in really because on the top you can see there is damage. So it was a little bit higher, like

• 8:52Speaker 03

  500 microns, probably because of that damage. And there is some of the bottom too.

• 8:57Danny Jones?

  So these big spikes on the right are how far it deviates from a perfect circle?

• 9:03Speaker 03

  The maximum is 526 micron.

• 9:09Danny Jones?

  And what is that in English?

• 9:12Speaker 03

  It's 200 hundreds of an inch.

• 9:16Danny Jones?

  200 hundredths of an inch?

• 9:19Speaker 03

  No, 200th of an inch.

• 9:20Danny Jones?

  2 one hundredths of an inch?

• 9:23Speaker 03

  So 0.02 inches. That's the max. The minimum deviation is 0.0004, like 4 10 000ths.

• 9:33Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  And the median is 6.

• 9:35Danny Jones?

  Okay, and what's, what, so basically what you're saying is that because these vases came from

• 9:45Danny Jones?

  2500 B.C. is that when it was? That was, that's when this one was from roughly?

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Traditionally, it was dated to 29, but they, they range from early Old Kingdom back to predynastic and Akkada time. So

• 9:59Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  It was about a 2000 year old, a 2000 year span that these are usually ascribed to.

• 10:04Danny Jones?

  Okay, so at least 4000 years ago, at the, at the very minimum for, at the youngest it could possibly be is 4000 years old. Right? So the, the, the idea here is like, there's no way conventional, that conventional explanations of how Egypt, Egyptians made these vases. They're tools that we know that they had. They could not have come up with something so perfect.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  That's the idea, yes.

• 10:28Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  So that's what we set out to test, to see if that's actually true. Is there any way that any of this work could be done by hand or by manual methods? And are there different grades or tiers of manufacturing quality in vessels that we see, right, across materials, across forms and across the different cultures that are attributed to have been the ones that made them originally? So these are normally attributed to a time based on where they're found. So they're found in a third-century tomb, okay, that's the minimum age, but it looks like something else. And we know this other group is making this thing in a different time period, so we may actually re-date it because it looks like something else. And there's a lot of problems with that. That's a Victorian-era concept called form-based dating.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  And there's a number of issues with that. It's the best approach that was around 150 years ago, but I think it's led to a lot of inconsistencies. And we've seen that with the alabasters, we've seen that with granites, where one form may be dated to the Middle Kingdom, another form might be dated to, like Nakata, which was 3,000 years before, just because of the way they look. Without reference, without giving any credit to the type of material, how difficult it would have been, why does it make sense that two distinct groups of people are making the exact same thing for 3,000 years? That's kind of odd, right? But that's the fallacy with this form-based dating.

• 11:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah, so I was listening to a quote-unquote debunking of these vases on YouTube this morning, and this guy, David Miano, was... One of the arguments he was making is that if you find one of these that is perfectly symmetrical, that you measure in your light scanners and your CT scans, you have... He was... And I could be misinterpreting this, but I believe the argument he was making is, you can't just have one, you gotta have two. And he's saying that if you only have one, it doesn't prove that your theory of this advanced machining technology existed.

• 12:35Danny Jones?

  Um, but the way I was think the, the reason that argument doesn't make sense to me is because if I go find a flying saucer in the desert, I don't need to find two flying saucers to figure out that there's some advanced civilization that made this thing, right? I only need one.

• 12:52Danny Jones?

  So.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  There's thousands of them, many thousands.

• 12:55Danny Jones?

  And there, there's thousands of these things that are, that are this precise.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:59Danny Jones?

  How many have been measured?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Well, we, I mean, we've gone through a few hundred, um, we're not in the thousands, but, um, we also have a filtering bias, right? We're ignoring pieces that are heavily damaged that may have been precise originally, but it makes it very difficult to scan and analyze. So we might, we might, um, discard a whole bunch of them. And a lot of these were broken and put back together. Right? So we could start to recognize these, they, they look, they might look precise. Uh, we don't know until we actually measure. So it's really hard to say exactly.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  So we have been in four museums and there is a time limit in every appointment, basically, or at every appointment. And we have scanned like roughly 20 to 30 pieces per museum.

• 13:40Danny Jones?

  Okay. So you bring your stuff there and you can scan them while you're in there?

• 13:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 13:45Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. That's amazing.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Um, and then of course, you know, Matt Bell and others, they have, they've been looking at, uh, pieces that are in private collections. I'm aware of people that, that own several hundred of these. So these are not, they're not uncommon. They're.

• 13:57Danny Jones?

  And what do these people that own the hundreds of these say about the stuff that you guys are doing?

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Uh, it's, it's novel to them, right? They've never really seen it or heard about it before. And usually people are open minded, uh, about a lot of this, uh, but there's a long period of, of, um, traditional story that you have to overcome. Before people are receptive to the fact that maybe they were made by a different group of people.

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• 16:17Speaker 03

  Roughly 100.

• 16:19Danny Jones?

  Roughly 100?

• 16:20Speaker 03

  From museums, yeah.

• 16:21Danny Jones?

  So you guys go to the museums, you guys pick the ones visually that you think look the most symmetrical. You put them in the scanner and then you you basically filter it. Is this what the device is right here?

• 16:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was in the Petri Museum. So basically.

• 16:35Danny Jones?

  Holy crap, that's crazy looking.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  We we wanted to have like a portable device, which is relatively capturing the the objects at a high accuracy. So this device is rated to 20 micron.

• 16:49Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  Accuracy.

• 16:51Speaker 03

  And basically it's true.

• 16:53Danny Jones?

  What do these museum people think when you guys show up with this crazy 3D scanner?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  They like it. Usually they're curious.

• 17:00Danny Jones?

  They're probably like, what the hell are you guys doing?

• 17:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  You know, we don't just ignore the less precise things. We want to control. We want a comparative. We want to be able to understand like how much more impressive is this? So

• 17:12Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  We don't completely ignore that as a control group.

• 17:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I don't like my, my point when I was making, the point I was trying to make was that it doesn't matter if you do ignore the less precise stuff. If there's shit that is that precise, that goes far that back, that far back, that proves that there must have been something incredible. They, that proves that they weren't doing this stuff with pounding stones and, and bow saws or bow drills or whatever. You know, it, they, it's impossible. They would have gotten that lucky, basically is my point. Like they couldn't have just gotten that lucky a handful of times.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  So basically we are shooting laser beams to the object and it's measuring the reflection angle of the laser beam. And then it's basically collecting the data points of the real object and reconstructing it with 20 micron accuracy. It means basically the, the 3D scan will be 20 micron close to the real object in, in dimensions, in size, everything.

• 18:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. So they were a little bit surprised. They, they told us that they had never seen such high tech in a museum. But we, we needed this, this mobile handheld stuff because you cannot set up a huge device. Usually the museum space is very tiny. You don't have much room for bigger equipments or CT scanners.

• 18:33Danny Jones?

  When they, when they ask you guys why you're doing this, what do you tell them? I imagine you don't say you're looking for an advanced ancient civilization.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  Basically in the email, when I reached out to museums.

• 18:43Danny Jones?

  They'd be like, get the hell out of here.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  No, actually they were quite, not all of them, but first the Petri Museum was very open to this. And then the Museo Agizio, I hope I pronounced it correctly. It's a second largest Egyptian museum after Cairo. It's in Italy, Turin. They were very open minded and I needed to craft a research plan and basically we were in.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  We usually say it's a combination of preservation so that they have these things for posterity. We also say there's potentially more exploratory work that can be done. We don't know how these are made. I don't think anybody does, even though there's... You may talk to an archaeologist that says there's consensus, there's really not. And the consensus is around how the alabaster vessels were made, not necessarily the hard igneous rock like the granites and diorites.

• 19:33Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Well, that's another straw man that the skeptics or the people that push back against this stuff, the conventional people like to say. They like to say, "Well, if you want to prove that..." Like, he was specifically talking about Ben Van Kirkwick, saying that he needs to come up with proof of ancient buzzsaws or like ancient core drills that would have been like perfect and would have had like insane amounts of power, like power tools. But no, he doesn't have to do that because Ben is not saying that this stuff was made with any type of specific power tool. I think what Ben is actually saying is that the conventional explanation for how these things were made doesn't fit the bill. He's basically challenging their explanation. So the burden of proof isn't on them

• 20:16Danny Jones?

  because Ben doesn't have some elaborate hypothesis of exactly how this was made. Ben's just questioning the narrative, right?

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 20:25Danny Jones?

  So this one is... So that one on screen is this one right here?

• 20:29Speaker 03

  No, no, no.

• 20:29Danny Jones?

  Oh, it's a different one. That's one that's in the museum, I see.

• 20:32Speaker 03

  Exactly. And at the beginning, you can see they collected all the pieces. So basically, they have an online collection, which we can browse, and we can pick 10... Specifically at the Petri Museum, you can pick 10 pieces or 10 objects per visit. We had two appointments and we picked roughly 20, but they were...

• 20:51Danny Jones?

  That's incredible that they're working with you guys like that. That they're like letting you come in and do this. Like, I wish... I honestly can't believe that they did this.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  It's insane how many objects are here. These few... What is it, like...

• 21:02Speaker 03

  Eighty thousand.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Just in a few rooms. And this was like 5%... Apparently, this is like the bottom 5% of the material he brought back.

• 21:10Danny Jones?

  Wow. Did you guys look at the core, the Petri core?

• 21:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, we looked at a few of those.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Core number seven, yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 03

  We also have scanned the core. I'm looking for that image.

• 21:23Danny Jones?

  The Chris Dunn Core Number Seven?

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:30Danny Jones?

  So for people who aren't aware of the Petri core, I guess the Flinders Petri found this cord out chunk of granite, I think it is, right? And it has a, it has these grooves that go around the outer edge of it. And he went there and took a string and wrapped the string around the groove, confirming that it's a, it's a never-ending spiral from one end to the other, right? And because of how close the grooves are together and that it is a perfect spiral, his engineering brain figured out that that had to have been a, a drill that was moving at a very high speed, that was drilling that core out of the rock

• 22:15Danny Jones?

  at like a super high speed, right?

• 22:16Speaker 03

  Like 500 times.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  It was a slow speed. It was very productive. Each revolution was extremely productive.

• 22:22Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  We don't necessarily know the speed, but we know that every time it went around, it was removing an extraordinary amount of granite. More than anything we, I think Chris has said between 100 and 500 times more productive than anything we have.

• 22:34Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Right now. But we asked them about this and they said, yeah, we have hundreds of these in boxes.

• 22:40Danny Jones?

  Of these?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Drill cores like this.

• 22:41Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  They were discarded. They were all over the place and you could just pick them up off the ground.

• 22:47Speaker 03

  So we did see this, sorry, laser scan and photogrammetry on this. So photogrammetry is basically a technique where you make like hundreds of photos from different angles around the object and then you stitch it together by tracking pixels and you can basically, there is a representation here or you can imagine the images all around. So these are the images taken of the object.

• 23:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's like how they photograph shit for video games.

• 23:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. And the problem with the laser scanner, that those grooves are so tiny, that it's around the limit of the scanner, of the resolution of the scanner. So we probably have to go back and, and scan it with a, with a more accurate laser scanner or a more accurate maybe structured light scanner. Because we could reconstruct the grooves, but sometimes the grooves are not obvious where to, where to follow the grooves.

• 23:47Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Because they have like cross sections and, and.

• 23:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's tough to see it here. There's, you can see the grooves when it gets towards the edge when the light's shining on it, but like the, the, the, the pattern on that rock is like, makes it really hard to see.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  Yes. So we find, we found a few spiral, uh, like turns basically on, on, on it, but to make sure that it's, it's a hundred percent, uh, like a spiral and not just a random wrongly connected, uh, groove, we have to go back and analyze it more totally.

• 24:30Danny Jones?

  Now, I mean, the stuff that Chris has done analyzing this core, I mean, he's done a lot of work, made a lot of videos. He's had aerospace people look at them. I think he had an aerospace guy go with him to the museum. They filmed wrapping the string around it.

• 24:48Danny Jones?

  Like, where does that go after people like him do something like that? Like, is there somebody like that analyzes that and says like, okay, maybe we need to like rethink how they did this stuff or?

• 25:02Speaker 02

  There should, there should be.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  The museum had no idea why this core is so famous. So this is the star object, the museum, but when we were there, they had no idea why.

• 25:14Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  It was surprising to me.

• 25:15Danny Jones?

  So they don't pay attention to any of this stuff?

• 25:17Speaker 03

  I don't think so.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  The, if they consider this alternative archaeology, then generally they ignore it, but, um, there's other researchers that are there during, during the day, during the week that they, they may also ignore just because there's too much on their plate.

• 25:31Danny Jones?

  Right, right. The amount of people that are coming in and looking at this stuff, they probably just don't have the time to focus on it.

• 25:37Speaker 03

  Are you familiar with Chris King?

• 25:39Danny Jones?

  No.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Uh, his brand is Chris King Precision Components. He's basically manufacturing, uh,

• 25:47Speaker 03

  High-end hubsets and headsets for mountain bikes and other bikes too. He was with us, so he's a manufacturing expert. He's doing it for like 50 years. Like very tight tolerances, aerospace tolerances. And he was explaining to the museum staff, the archaeologists. So when we were scanning, they were watching us and Chris was explaining to them why we are doing it and what's the, what are the implications? And they were quite open-minded actually, so they didn't, they didn't refuse to talk about these or...

• 26:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's what Chris Dumm was explaining to me. He was explaining to me that some of like the younger up-and-coming archaeologists and Egyptologists in Egypt are way more open to this stuff. And there's there, a lot of them even have YouTube channels that explore this stuff and that pay attention to the stuff that like Ben is doing. And you know, all these like Jimmy Corsetti and all these other guys that are making a name for themselves, questioning the narrative. Like these young folks, these young people who are coming up, they, they're aware of it and they're actually taking it into consideration. And he's optimistic that that, you know, that, that dogma is going to change, which is...

• 26:55Speaker 02

  I think you can see it already. There's like Ahmed Adli is one of the members of the foundation with us and he's got a YouTube channel. It's, it's specifically designed to bring this content to the Arab-speaking world. Because they haven't had it as much as the English-speaking world.

• 27:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Probably French and German, but it's been absent from their lexicon. So you're right, there, I think people are open-minded. And it does benefit them because it brings in tourist dollars eventually.

• 27:22Danny Jones?

  I would think so.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Economically, it makes sense.

• 27:27Danny Jones?

  So you guys, other than that thing you were just showing, that, that grid laser thing, didn't you guys also take this to like a defense contractor place where they had some crazy like scanning machines? That would analyze it even more thoroughly?

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Well, that's right. Before we had, now we have in-house equipment, but in the past, that's the first few places I went. So I went to defense contractor that had access to old CMM machines and structured light equipment. And then we went to Zeiss itself in Michigan, which has like

• 27:59Danny Jones?

  Zeiss, wow.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  They're, yeah, they're a massive, a massive brand that makes, yeah, exactly. Like lenses and scanning equipment, camera lenses. So they have CT scanning machines there that are the size of a small room. So obviously it doesn't lend itself well to onsite or on-location expeditions or anything in a museum. But if you have the piece, so the private collection stuff can be analyzed at a place like that.

• 28:23Danny Jones?

  And have you, who have, like, who have you shown these CT scans to that's involved with conventional Egyptology?

• 28:33Speaker 02

  We've spoken to a few, you know, we have some relationships with, with, with researchers and academics in Egypt at the Ministry of Antiquities and other places. So we're, I think we've taken the, the softer approach where we, we want, you know, we want access to the same, the same sites and the same objects that other academics have access to. And so we've, you know, the first few years I was relatively quiet and we didn't really release anything publicly because, you know, it's, to them it's important. It could be, it could be an existential career question if they want to get involved in the academic, in the alternative academic community. So.

• 29:15Danny Jones?

  I don't understand what's alternative about bringing these artifacts into a defense contractor and measuring them. It seems pretty standard.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  That, that work is still above and beyond what's normally applied to this, but the implications could be, you know, could be interpreted in a number of different ways.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  It could be as simple as, well, maybe this culture had something more advanced than they're giving credit to, all the way to it was someone completely different, or it was aliens, or it was high-tech computer CNC machines, right? So there's a lot of different interpretations that have been applied to this subject.

• 29:50Danny Jones?

  And So they're afraid of the interpretations?

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Some, yeah, some are worried that it'll jeopardize their career. They're intensely criticized one another over their own papers that aren't even controversial. So if there is something that's controversial, that's outside of the mainstream, it could jeopardize their track. It could jeopardize their standing with their colleagues and everything else that comes alongside that, which is understandable. But I think things are starting to change a little bit. The acceptance level is higher than it used to be, especially if we apply rigorous scientific standards.

• 30:26Danny Jones?

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• 31:52Danny Jones?

  That's M N N I C E E T H N O dot com slash DJ and use my code DJ 22 for 22% off your first order. Have you gotten any rational pushback on this stuff? It's not ideological and it's not like career driven.

• 32:13Danny Jones?

  What is the most compelling pushback you've gotten about this stuff? Like, is there anything?

• 32:18Speaker 02

  It's criticism in general.

• 32:19Danny Jones?

  I know there's lots of criticism that you guys get from this. There's not just from, I mean, I imagine it's not just from like YouTubers is, or is it just from like YouTube type people that are making entertainment around this archaeology space?

• 32:33Speaker 02

  We, it seems to be more prevalent online than.

• 32:35Danny Jones?

  Of course, right? Because people make money doing that. People have like identities. They have to be skeptics and they have to push back on stuff and.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  A lot of it's legitimate. It's, it's healthy. We need skepticism. We need a healthy dialogue with, with all different types of people, alternative archaeologists and lifelong academics as well.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  I think most of the pushbacks was regarding the provenance. For example, the OG base.

• 32:56Danny Jones?

  So they're saying by provenance, what do they mean by that?

• 33:00Speaker 03

  Where is it from? Is it a forgery? Is it a modern fake?

• 33:03Speaker 02

  How long can you document the, you know, the chain of custody? So provenance would be like where exactly what site it was dug up at. And that a lot of times is not known or it was, and it was obfuscated. But how long has it been outside Egypt? When was it brought out? Is it before this various treaty? Okay, that's a legal concern, but is there at any point in time, could this have been manufactured more recently? And so that, that was a frequent.

• 33:27Danny Jones?

  Is that possible that somebody could manufacture like this granite base right here?

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Sure, anything's possible. We, I don't think we've seen it done yet.

• 33:35Danny Jones?

  You don't think?

• 33:36Speaker 02

  I haven't seen any, any spherical objects manufactured to this level of precision, complex spherical geometry. We have seen it in cylinders and other objects, flat planes, yes, can, can exceed that dramatically, actually. Um, and circularity, uh, for instance, like an artillery barrel of a military cannon.

• 33:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Um, I think, I think that first reached, like we're talking about radial deviation, basically. First reached about a thousandth of an inch in the late eighteen hundreds. So this has been possible for a while, but as applied to even metal and other complex objects. It's been eighty, ninety years that we've been able to do that level of work in metal. But I have, we haven't seen it applied to, to a hard igneous rock like this.

• 34:23Danny Jones?

  What, what rock specifically is this?

• 34:25Speaker 02

  That's red, oswany and granite.

• 34:27Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 34:29Danny Jones?

  I can feel with my thumb, it's a little bit, you can feel like the imperfections on the edge.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Oh, and there are, and you can see tool markings, you can see what looks like the evidence of hand tools that may have been applied. Lastly, to smooth out some edges and fix a few imperfections. They're not, they're not a hundred percent perfect and there's evidence of hand, of, of, of somebody's hand. Guiding some sort of a tool on a lot of these. So I, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't speculate and say they were made on an assembly line without, without human intervention at all.

• 34:59Danny Jones?

  So there's no evidence that you've seen of anybody recreating something like this, uh, in modern times?

• 35:05Speaker 03

  He reached out.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Talk about that one.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  He, he reached out actually to manufacture a great manufacturing company or some company in, in China. Who is making bases like multi-generational company. And they were not able to hollow out the interior. So basically they, they, they drilled a straight.

• 35:27Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 35:29Speaker 03

  And if you're talking about the external, uh, median circularity is like. A hundred and ten microns. It's like four thousandths.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  They were using computer controlled CNC machines.

• 35:42Danny Jones?

  This is a CNC machine.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, on a lathe. So the, the thing was spinning and then the CNC head was going around it.

• 35:48Danny Jones?

  And that's the video of it on the right.

• 35:50Speaker 03

  There is another object they are working on.

• 35:52Danny Jones?

  That's obviously not granite.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's marble, I think.

• 35:55Speaker 03

  And they were hand polishing it.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  So the tolerances are like not even close to this one.

• 36:03Danny Jones?

  Do you have a photo of the inside of that base? Or just the diagram?

• 36:08Speaker 03

  I have just this diagram.

• 36:09Danny Jones?

  Okay. Wow, man.

• 36:12Speaker 03

  The interior is more perfect. Let's say it's three thousandths and exterior is four thousandths of an inch.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Because cylinders are easier to work than complex spherical geometry.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  And when I put the order for these to print, I wanted to order a stainless steel CNC version of this one because we have the STL files. We have the scans, so they could reproduce it. And a few days after I submitted the order, they reached out to me via email that, "Sorry, we cannot make it. We don't have, not out of granite, out of stainless steel."

• 36:53Danny Jones?

  Who?

• 36:54Speaker 03

  It was a manufacturing company in China who printed these. They had another service to CNC, to create CNC machine parts. And they said it's too complex for them. They don't have the proper machinery to do it.

• 37:14Danny Jones?

  And what about these little ones? Are these 3D print recreations of existing bases?

• 37:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:21Danny Jones?

  They make them this tiny?

• 37:22Speaker 03

  They are from the Petri Museum. And actually, this is, this was the most perfect. This had the median circularity of 70 microns.

• 37:34Danny Jones?

  That's how big it was?

• 37:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. And...

• 37:38Danny Jones?

  And this was...

• 37:39Speaker 03

  The opening just broke.

• 37:40Danny Jones?

  Super symmetrical.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  It's like a shot glass.

• 37:42Speaker 03

  It's two thousandths of an inch median.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  It's hard to say, but there was some sort of a lip.

• 37:46Danny Jones?

  Two thousandths.

• 37:48Speaker 03

  And it's diorite, not granite, diorite.

• 37:53Danny Jones?

  Dude, that is mind bending. And this is the actual size of it.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  Yes, that's the actual size.

• 38:00Danny Jones?

  Have you shown this to any sort of granite workers, like shown them this thing, how tiny it is and how perfect it is and like ask them like, give me your first reaction to it.

• 38:10Speaker 03

  Not me.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Whenever the, whenever that.

• 38:14Danny Jones?

  This is for people that can't see this, that people that are just listening, this thing is like, I don't know, a third the size of a shot glass.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  It's like an inch, inch and a half tall.

• 38:26Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Sorry, what were you saying?

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Granite carvers don't really, they don't usually attempt to make things like these objects, they're very, they're complex is I think the word. You have like parabolic shapes in the exterior dimensionality. You have very small radiuses applied to all surfaces, like the bull nose of the interior mouth you were looking at earlier. So it's not, it's not something that's normally attempted. And so if somebody is, is going to speculate, you will hear a lot of people say it's not possible. We can't do it today, even with modern tech. People have said that and I, I don't think it's true. I think the better question is how would we do it? Right? What would make, what would make sense?

• 39:04Danny Jones?

  Or why?

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Or how did some, yeah, or why exactly? Why did someone make this in the past and how? Because it's looking more and more like it wasn't that difficult for whoever did it.

• 39:15Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  Given the sheer number of them, given some, sometimes they're haphazardly finished by hand in certain cases.

• 39:22Danny Jones?

  And I also think it's interesting that, correct me if I'm wrong, but there aren't any two that are identical.

• 39:30Danny Jones?

  Is that true? Which would, which would, I mean, some people would hypothesize that, that maybe they had molds for these things. They were melting this granite down into liquid and then putting it in these molds and like forming them like concrete.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  No two pieces of stone are identical, right? Whereas concrete could be more homogeneous, but we have seen some forms repeated over and over again, and even the nominal measurements, like the dimensionality, the same height could be applied. So here's an example of four of them side by side. One of them's right in front of you.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  But it's not exactly the same.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  They're close, they're very close. And so, you know, these are funny enough, these are, I think these are all attributed to very different epochs. The one on the far left is 27 or 2800 B.C. And the other ones range all the way down to the Middle Kingdom, which is like 1500 years later.

• 40:16Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Wow.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  And we have, I think granite, obsidian, either limestone or, what does that look like to you?

• 40:25Danny Jones?

  The black one is, is what?

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Not obsidian, basalt, I'm sorry.

• 40:28Danny Jones?

  Basalt, yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Do you think that's, is that limestone or what?

• 40:35Danny Jones?

  They're all the same general shape. They're all the same general idea, but you can see how, like, they're very, very different like this. It's not, it's like you gave somebody like the general like layout of what you wanted to build and they went for it. But it's clearly that these weren't all like from a mold. Cause they're still, although they are super similar.

• 40:57Speaker 03

  Check out the interior, the shoulder.

• 41:00Danny Jones?

  Wow, dude, how in the hell? So the, so the fat part is completely, if you stick your finger down there, it opens up on the inside too.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:10Danny Jones?

  And there's like a perfect, right where this is, there's a perfect ledge on the inside.

• 41:16Danny Jones?

  And this is what again? What made it, what is this made of?

• 41:18Speaker 02

  That's a type, I think that's a type of granite.

• 41:22Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 41:24Danny Jones?

  So.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Is that a real one?

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 41:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:27Danny Jones?

  This is an original?

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:30Speaker 03

  I'm glad it's hard to distinguish. It means the prints are good.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah. It, yeah, it looks like, I don't know what the hell. I mean, it feels kind of like concrete, but it's definitely not concrete.

• 41:44Danny Jones?

  You can see all the, uh, like the pattern in it.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  We scanned a few, um, alabaster and also pottery vessels just to compare if they did pottery, what's the circularity of those objects? And I always wonder if they can do pottery. Why would they go for the hassle and make this one?

• 42:06Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 42:07Speaker 03

  And make it so round? Why? What's, what's the purpose of that? If they can do it out of pottery, which is less round, it's much easier. Was it some kind of a religious?

• 42:20Speaker 03

  Function or they made it because it was holding a sacred?

• 42:25Danny Jones?

  Like clay, like clay pots or something like this?

• 42:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I can show.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Sacred, the sacred juice.

• 42:31Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Of life.

• 42:34Speaker 03

  So basically there was a Nagada vase, this pottery vase, uh, which we have scanned and, um,

• 42:44Speaker 03

  It's two hundredths of an inch median circularity. I had to remove the... It has four handles, actually, as you can see here.

• 42:53Danny Jones?

  Two hundredths. So it's still very symmetrical.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  Yes, but not even close to these granite vases.

• 43:00Danny Jones?

  Which are what? What is it again? Not two hundredths.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  Two thousandths.

• 43:05Danny Jones?

  Two thousandths.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, unless...

• 43:08Danny Jones?

  So it's ten times more. Ten times more perfect.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. We have scandals on alabaster from the eighteenth dynasty.

• 43:16Danny Jones?

  Oh yeah, that thing looks super oblong.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  Well, the bottom is wacky, but if you set it straight, it's much better. The bottom will be not that straight, but the rest is good.

• 43:26Danny Jones?

  Ah, I see.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Uh, maybe I can zoom in a little bit. Uh, so it was five hundred microns, which is also roughly two thousandths of an inch.

• 43:36Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 43:37Speaker 03

  Sorry, two hundredths, two hundredths.

• 43:39Danny Jones?

  Two hundredths.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  So it's similar. It's in the same range like the pottery.

• 43:42Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  But we have seen actually very nice alabaster vases, like tall ones in the MFA Boston, uh, and it was around hundred microns. So five times more accurate than this alabaster. So there are a few alabaster which are in the same category like these granite vases.

• 44:00Danny Jones?

  How hard is alabaster?

• 44:02Speaker 03

  It's much softer. I don't know the Mohs scale, but it's...

• 44:05Speaker 02

  About three. It's, it's, you can cut that with, um, with, without an abrasive, with like a bronze tool and no abrasive.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  So it's much softer, but, um, yeah.

• 44:16Danny Jones?

  So this, you think this was just super easy for them to do?

• 44:20Speaker 02

  I don't know if I'd say super easy. It could have been challenging, but they did it and they did it at scale. Um, and there was so many that they were spread around.

• 44:26Danny Jones?

  Do you think it's possible that this stuff wasn't even from what we think it was from? Do you think it's possible it was like much older than this? Like maybe even like older than 12,000 years old?

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Um, it's hard to know, you know, there's a break in the archaeological record between around five thousand B.C. and ten thousand B.C. where we don't really see these. And so if it was from a culture right before, where these are normally attributed to, we think we would see that. If it was from a period of time much, much earlier than, than maybe what you're saying is, is right. I don't know, but I, I don't.

• 44:58Danny Jones?

  How do you, how do they do that? How do you, how do you determine that there was a gap from when we see them? Like, like, how do you, how, how do you date these?

• 45:06Speaker 02

  They're, they're found in burials. So, so the Egyptian, the dynastic Egyptians would bury them, would bury their loved ones with these, right? And sometimes kings and pharaohs would find these in.

• 45:16Danny Jones?

  All of them are found in burials?

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Uh, yes, but the funny thing is some of them were buried themselves. So there was a, there was a pharaoh named Joser in Imhotep. They put at least forty thousand of these down below the step pyramid. I, I actually think it was much, much more like, more like a hundred or more, um, by themselves. So not with bodies. Uh, they were, they were packaged up in thousands of containers to protect them.

• 45:44Danny Jones?

  So with no, nothing to carbon date?

• 45:46Speaker 02

  No, but some of the names sketched into them were from kings even earlier, hundreds of years before.

• 45:51Danny Jones?

  Sketched into the vases themselves?

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Etched in or, um, scratched in, if you will.

• 45:55Danny Jones?

  Wow. Okay. So that would be good evidence, that, that would be a good way of dating it.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, you, you have a minimum, you have a minimum age. You know, it's someone before you, but that guy was, that was Menezer Narmer, who allegedly was the first person that united Egypt. And so if his name isn't a lot of these, maybe he was collecting them too. And it turns out a predynastic culture called Nakhtetra was, was found with these.

• 46:19Danny Jones?

  Well, just because you find them buried with pharaohs or have pharaohs' names etched in them, doesn't mean they made them. They could have just found them.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. If you go to the Cairo Museum, the, the new museum, and I think it's also in other museums as well, but if you look at those vases, sometimes they have the museum label, the serial number of those. And specifically in the, in the new Egyptian museum, I've seen one big vase with three different labels. The first one were, or one was from the current museum and another one from the previous one. And what if they did the same? Like they found these, they labeled them, and then you see multiple inscriptions on, on these vessels and containers. And it's, it's not the real.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  Owner or manufacturer of the vases, not the original guy who who made it.

• 47:10Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, I don't I just don't I don't understand the controversy here because it's an insult to anyone's intelligence to show them these scans that you guys did and say that they were done with with pounding stones and copper tools like it's it's just not logical in any sense of the word.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Obviously, we were we were talking to Miano recently and he acknowledged that potentially they did have a lathe or revolving equipment, but right now that's that's not what's attributed to any of these cultures. They didn't have the wheel. The wheel came from Mesopotamia after Nakhtetra.

• 47:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah, what year what year did they come? Did they have? Do you know what year that they actually got the lathe? Like, when was the lathe first introduced?

• 47:46Speaker 02

  It was around 3000 B.C., roughly speaking. We don't know exactly, but it was found in Mesopotamia first and then apparently shared with Egypt. But these were turned. You can see evidence of turning marks on them. These would predate the the wheel being in this region by several thousand years. And if these were made on something rotating, which it seems like they certainly were in a lot of cases, it was part of the process, something revolving, either a wheel or a lathe or something like that. But that's interesting because that culture that's allegedly that allegedly made these Nakhtetra, they didn't apply that that process to anything else. Their pottery was not made on a wheel. It was made by hand. They would they would pinch it and draw it and and coil. And so

• 48:29Speaker 02

  that seems very odd that that they would have this tech that's only used for stone that's so wonderfully efficient and they would never use it for anything else. These people also didn't put stone in their house in their homes. They didn't make headstones. They didn't have monuments, statues. They didn't have toilets, sinks, basins. And if you could cut and carve stone this easily.

• 48:47Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Or this proficiently, you would apply it to your primary residence and other.

• 48:50Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Churches, whatever, you know, important buildings.

• 48:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah, no, that makes sense. And one of the arguments I think Flint Dibble made to me, not about the vases, but about the pyramids, was that like, certain things need this, they would be incentivized to make certain things better and more precise if they're monumental. And he used the analogy of like, Washington, D.C. He's like, you see the Washington Monument? Now, are all the houses in the neighborhoods around that that monument, are they as precise as the Washington Monument or as enormous and like well crafted as that? No, because they weren't. That was like a monumental ceremonial thing, right? You don't need the houses. They could be mud huts, you know, living around there. And

• 49:30Danny Jones?

  I don't know, I don't know if that argument applies to the bases, though.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Well, the Hoover Dam is the biggest, one of the biggest things in America. It's one of the biggest, you know, constructions that men have ever made, but we use the same technology in other things. We know how to use cement and other things. Why, how come this technology was never applied to anything else, ever, ever? And you easily could, you could say, oh, look how they're spinning that stone around. I should do that with my clay. Right? And so that's, it leads, it leads me to think these are inherited even to this culture. They were heirlooms that, this, this is not a very rudimentary culture. I would say that they, they're impressive. It was a society. They traded. They were all over the world.

• 50:11Danny Jones?

  Which culture are you talking about?

• 50:12Speaker 02

  Nakhtetra.

• 50:12Danny Jones?

  Nakhtetra.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  So they traded with the Levant, with, with that area up, all the way up into Syria, Southern Africa. They did have copper. They were using it to hunt. They made beer. They had breweries. But they lived in mud huts. They had very limited uses of wood and they weren't known for, for applying anything like this to any other facet of their life. So these were, these were found in Nakhtetra burials. That's the earliest record of these being found.

• 50:38Speaker 03

  Possibly. Sometimes they don't even, or they cannot even date it. Because if you look at the museum provenance, sometimes it says that possibly Nagada, or it, it was found in, in this grave and that grave, which is dated to Nagada, but sometimes they are not sure. They just write early dynastic, or dynastic, or Nagada, or predynastic. So it's, it's, it's, uh, it's not straightforward when, where they made.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  The, the thing I had on previously, that, that was the small one.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just can't get over how insane this is, man. It really is.

• 51:19Speaker 03

  This is how, how it looks like.

• 51:23Danny Jones?

  So that's the real one?

• 51:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:24Danny Jones?

  And this is in Petri Museum?

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  And so it's like...

• 51:32Danny Jones?

  And how thin, I mean, it's pretty thin, the walls of this thing.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  The interior is reconstructed because the laser scanner cannot capture the inside of this.

• 51:42Danny Jones?

  So how thin was the real one?

• 51:45Speaker 03

  We couldn't measure it because we had a precision caliper calibrated to a few microns.

• 51:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 03

  But it wouldn't fit. The opening is so tiny.

• 51:55Danny Jones?

  When Matt was here, he had some of his vases and we turned all the lights off and we shined a flashlight in there. And you could see the whole thing lit up because it was paper thin. Like the edge, the size of this granite vase were literally paper thin. It was completely insane. And like...

• 52:11Speaker 03

  This one was very thin.

• 52:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  You can feel the thickness of this. This is a very weird shoulder jar. This is from the 6th dynasty, sorry. So this is not pre-dynastic on paper. But the interesting thing about this piece is the actual measurements. So if I open it up,

• 52:39Speaker 03

  the exterior is basically 140 microns, which is 5,000ths or 6,000ths of an inch.

• 52:47Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 52:48Speaker 03

  That's the exterior. And the interior is 1,000ths. So the interior is more precise than the exterior.

• 53:00Danny Jones?

  Like the serapium boxes, it's the same thing, right? The interior is super precise, but the exterior is like really rough and rugged.

• 53:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's like a cone shaped. You can see the...

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Think about a tool that may have been used, you know, we could be talking about one drill tip versus something that was going around. Which could result in more precision on the inside.

• 53:22Speaker 03

  And it was beautiful.

• 53:25Danny Jones?

  Now, um, another thing that people like to point to is the, apparently there was a group of people who tried to make a recreation, a modern recreation of this, right? They have a YouTube channel. I think they're Russian. I forget the name of them.

• 53:41Speaker 03

  Scientist against myth.

• 53:42Danny Jones?

  There you go. Okay, yes. And, and, um, when Debra was on here, he was trying to say that they made it perfect. He was saying that they, is this it?

• 53:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, so on the, on the left side, you can see the scientist. So they, we don't know how they scanned their vase.

• 53:57Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  Uh, but they published it. So you can, you can download it, basically.

• 54:03Danny Jones?

  They made all, okay, so which one did they make? They made the one on the far left?

• 54:06Speaker 03

  The left.

• 54:06Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 54:07Speaker 03

  The middle one is this small piece from the Petri Museum and the right one is this one. And you can see the heat map. The green is very close to, to perfect. Uh, so ba- basically, these are compared to the perfect slices.

• 54:22Danny Jones?

  I see.

• 54:23Speaker 03

  So we sliced them up, fit perfect circle on every slice, and we created a CAD model based on these slices, the perfect circles. And the mesh is then compared to the CAD model. And that's what you can see here. It's the surface deviation between the CAD and, uh, and the 3D.

• 54:40Danny Jones?

  Wow, the OG vase is insanely, uh, accurate and precise. Like it's all yellow and green pretty much with a little bit of blue and red towards the edges.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:50Danny Jones?

  And the one that the scientist versus myth, that, that looks like a, uh, like radar.

• 54:56Speaker 03

  When it's dark.

• 54:57Danny Jones?

  Of like a storm coming through.

• 54:57Speaker 03

  When it's dark red, it means it's, it's out of the 100 micron tolerance. When it's dark blue, so when it's, uh, when it's red, it's, it's like a bump. It's a positive deviation. And dark blue is a negative deviation. It's like a dent. So.

• 55:16Danny Jones?

  And how long did it take them to make that?

• 55:18Speaker 03

  Two years.

• 55:19Danny Jones?

  Two years to make one of them?

• 55:21Speaker 03

  Based on their video. And, uh, the hole is also straight. So it's, it's not like. Ellipsoid or

• 55:28Danny Jones?

  Oh, the hole is a straight core. It's not, it doesn't, it's not.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  It's not contouring, it's just straight, like a core drill. But, you know, they, they designed and made, I think they were using their knowledge of like modern machining to create tools that make their lives faster. They were using wood to, to create basically machines that would drill and, and do the work for them. And then when they were measuring to remove the the high parts, he's mentioning the red parts, they, they, they, they used a rotating table on ball bearings. And so that's, that's a, that's a fixed, it's effectively a fixed spindle. It's a fixed axis. So that's going to impart roundness on something.

• 56:03Speaker 03

  They have cheated, basically.

• 56:05Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, they might not have.

• 56:06Danny Jones?

  And what, what stone did they use? Do we know?

• 56:08Speaker 03

  Dirite or granite.

• 56:10Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  It's a dirite, yeah.

• 56:13Danny Jones?

  I mean, it's pretty impressive that they were able to pull that off in two years, but um, you know, when the rubber meets the road, it's nowhere near as precise as these ancient ones.

• 56:22Speaker 03

  And my problems, or my problem with their claims that they, they also went to a museum in, in Russia.

• 56:29Danny Jones?

  The problem is Flint Dibble said it was more precise and it clearly it was not even close.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  It's much less precise, for sure.

• 56:36Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 56:36Speaker 03

  Because they said it in, in their video. They went into a museum.

• 56:40Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 56:40Speaker 03

  Measured something with a physical caliper, not a laser scanner, at least that was in the video. But this caliper was like, uh, like, uh, it has some tape on, on its edges and no way you can measure micron levels with that thing. They had to put it on the ways and then measure it against a, a scale or something. It's not a precise measurement. And their table, they represented in the video was also not, this was not really understandable. It was a little bit sketchy. Not so scientific, in my opinion. And, um, yeah. But we can see. It's not more precise.

• 57:21Danny Jones?

  And, okay, another question is, who did that scan? Did you actually get your hands on that vase that they had?

• 57:29Speaker 03

  No, they uploaded their, their 3D scan.

• 57:32Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 57:32Speaker 03

  So they made it freely available.

• 57:34Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 57:35Speaker 03

  It's openly available.

• 57:36Danny Jones?

  And when they upload the 3D scan, I assume they give you all the measurements and everything and, and, um, or like something to do with the 3D file. You can basically plug that into any program and it recreates it. Is that how it works?

• 57:48Speaker 02

  It's an STL file is what it's called.

• 57:49Danny Jones?

  An STL file.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  You can load that into like Blender or.

• 57:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  Metropolis software.

• 57:53Danny Jones?

  I see, I see, I see. Okay.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  And, and then we, we ran our software on these. The same analyzes on all of these three.

• 58:03Danny Jones?

  God, that's so crazy, bro.

• 58:07Danny Jones?

  I mean, it's gotta be, I don't know. I, I feel like just the way my brain works, I want to say that this, this stuff had to have been way before that. And it has to be the same people that were responsible for doing some of this megalithic stone work. And just like, you know, there's just so many questions that, including this, that are, are not, there's no reasonable explanation for, like the scoop marks under that giant obelisk in Egypt, you know? The how they, how do they scoop those, the rocks like that? And even there's scoop marks in the serapium boxes where it, it's like, I don't know. I don't know how, like, I've never heard it can, or the best explanation I've heard is that they, um, which is Jeffrey Drum's explanation, is that they had some sort of a chemical

• 58:49Danny Jones?

  that they were able to put on there to soften it, to maybe scoop out cracks or something like that. But other than that, I, I mean, there's just so many unanswered questions when it comes to Egypt. Let's be honest, most dress clothes are uncomfortable, high maintenance, and just don't feel good when you wear them. You have to spend too much time ironing, dry cleaning and tugging stiff fabrics. And that's why I love Mizzen and Maine. Today's sponsor, Mizzen and Maine, makes classic menswear with performance fabrics. So it's effortless to look sharp and feel fantastic. Over 10 years ago, Mizzen and Maine invented the Performance Fabric Dress Shirt. Since then, they've perfected it with modern fabrics that look refined but feel incredible. Their shirts and pants are stretchy, lightweight, moisture-wicking, wrinkle-resistant,

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• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  You can see different, um, different widths and different, almost like radius, applied to the different scoop marks at different places in Egypt. Almost like they had a different tool for, for a different job. Or they were made on-site for a specific purpose, right? You see thousands of those scoop marks at Aswan. You see far fewer, but you do see something similar at, at Abydos, in the temple there. But it looks a lot, it looks a lot different, looks much wider. Like there's a bigger radius, so...

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  You know, they had different tools for different jobs.

• 1:01:05Danny Jones?

  And how does, uh, how do the conventional Egyptologists explain the scoop marks away?

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  I've never heard of this.

• 1:01:11Speaker 03

  Diarite pounders.

• 1:01:13Danny Jones?

  Diarite pounders?

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  And fire setting. So basically, they stressed the granite with fire. They put a huge fire on, and then they cooled it with water. It stressed the rock, and then they used the pounders. Like rounded pounders and remove those scoops manually.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Dolorite's like basalt, so it's hard. It's probably not harder than the granite, but it would do the job eventually, but...

• 1:01:40Danny Jones?

  Well, I mean, that sounds, I would love to see somebody, uh, try to do that. I would like to see them experiment with it and see how it works.

• 1:01:47Speaker 03

  They didn't experiment, actually, with the fire, uh, fire setting.

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  But the numbers, I haven't seen the numbers.

• 1:01:56Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  I, I really want to see how much wood do you need for this? How much?

• 1:02:00Danny Jones?

  How much fire? I mean, you're literally, you're cutting out a 1,000 ton obelisk using this method, like.

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:09Speaker 04

  And then smoothing the interiors of those buildings, I mean, without ventilation, you'd choke yourself out.

• 1:02:16Danny Jones?

  What is this photo?

• 1:02:17Speaker 03

  This is the.

• 1:02:18Danny Jones?

  Our video.

• 1:02:19Speaker 03

  Lahun Pyramid, basically, in the Fayum Oasis, and there is a huge granite box uh, underneath this. Basically, it's a mud brick pyramid, or at least the exterior. And we had an expedition, uh, last year, December.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  And, yeah, it's, it's, it's a huge. I wouldn't say.

• 1:02:44Danny Jones?

  How deep underground does this go?

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Um. I think it's less than 100 feet. So this is interesting because it's not attached to the pyramid itself. It's below grade. Remember the story about how the pyramids are protecting the king's body?

• 1:02:58Speaker 03

  This is the pyramid.

• 1:02:59Danny Jones?

  Oh, yes, I've seen this one.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  You can enter this very simple set of tunnels from

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  from outside the base. So see where we are? We're not, we're not close to, even where the base used to be, when it had casing stones, we're still about 100 feet back from that. And so we go straight down and then somewhat under, so we are somewhat under the pyramid.

• 1:03:19Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  We're not connected to it.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  Which asks, I think.

• 1:03:24Danny Jones?

  So these hallways don't connect to the pyramid at all?

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  They're not, no, they're below grade. So whatever the pyramid was built for, it doesn't appear to be directly related.

• 1:03:35Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 1:03:37Speaker 03

  And it's almost collapsing.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  A lot of this is modern, is modern.

• 1:03:40Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:03:41Speaker 03

  A huge piece of rock just, just fell down when you're there.

• 1:03:45Danny Jones?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  Probably a few years.

• 1:03:46Danny Jones?

  That was, uh, yeah, that was like bricks.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  We see some retaining walls here, but this is just the entrance.

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  And the main thing is, uh, at the end of this room.

• 1:03:56Danny Jones?

  Holy shit.

• 1:03:58Speaker 03

  This is a granite room, uh.

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  So this room is doing just fine, doesn't need any.

• 1:04:05Danny Jones?

  How have I never seen this before?

• 1:04:08Speaker 03

  Flinders Petrie said probably this is the most precise artifact ever came out of Egypt.

• 1:04:17Danny Jones?

  And this is, uh, is that Ben right there?

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:21Danny Jones?

  What is the explanation? Well, how do they, what do they say this was a coffin or something?

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Everything's for death. It's all coffins.

• 1:04:26Danny Jones?

  It's all for death.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:27Danny Jones?

  It's a perfectly polished, uh, rectangular granite box with, looks like it was cut with a laser, dude.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  And the bottom has an angle, a constant angle.

• 1:04:41Danny Jones?

  The bottom has an angle. You mean the inside bottom?

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  If we back up, freeze it so we can see that, but.

• 1:04:48Danny Jones?

  The top. Holy cow.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  The top surface was published, Petrie measured and published it, and he found it to be four thousandths of an inch deviation across about one and a quarter meters.

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  Like flatness?

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  Which is like, which is, I think, 20 times flatter than a normal household countertop.

• 1:05:07Speaker 03

  And this entire room is also made out of granite. These are granite tiles.

• 1:05:14Speaker 03

  It's crazy.

• 1:05:16Speaker 03

  And we actually could measure it and.

• 1:05:18Danny Jones?

  Why though? Like, the whole thing is like, why? Like, it's, it's. So number one question is like, obviously how, right? I mean, that's, that's the glaring one. But then, what, once you figure out, like, why the hell did they have to do it? Because one of the things Chris Dunn says is that, coming from an engineering background, you have to, you start with function, then you go to design, and then you do like the measurement. So like, you start with your function, and then you kind of like engineer it from there. Like, what is the purpose of this? Like, then you figure out how precise you have to get to achieve your purpose, right?

• 1:05:55Speaker 03

  Or they had the tools which made it easy.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  This is.

• 1:05:59Speaker 03

  If they had already those tools, that could provide these tolerances, they don't have to think about, okay, how should we do this?

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  Right. You can't see that this is more flat than. than far less flatness and it is possible to do this in modern lapping methods this is lapping what would result in something like this are generally hybrid approaches there's a machine that's that's like randomly moving flat maybe circular surfaces over another surface and then a lot of times I somebody by hand applies some finishing lapping so it is possible to do this by hand okay but you can't see it you can't see how flat it is so if this was their target and look how look how homogeneous that is if this was their target because of the function like you mentioned then how would they know when they got there? How would they know when they achieve their target?

• 1:06:49Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  They can't see it.

• 1:06:52Speaker 03

  So basically.

• 1:06:53Danny Jones?

  Unless they would have had to have something to measure it right like they would have had.

• 1:06:57Speaker 03

  You can make a flat surface with the lapping technique but um.

• 1:07:02Danny Jones?

  It seems like it's something that's almost incomprehensible it's like it's it's I can't think of any any way they would have been able to do this.

• 1:07:15Speaker 03

  So we fit a fitted a plane on this can.

• 1:07:19Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:07:20Speaker 03

  And you can see the green area is around four thousandths of an inch.

• 1:07:26Danny Jones?

  Oh my god.

• 1:07:27Speaker 03

  And that's exactly what Petri measured we don't know how he measured it exactly what tools he used in the Victorian era but um.

• 1:07:36Danny Jones?

  How much does this thing weigh do you think?

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  If I had to guess I'd say like two to three tons.

• 1:07:43Danny Jones?

  Two to three tons?

• 1:07:44Speaker 03

  I think much more.

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  Well it's hollowed out so.

• 1:07:47Danny Jones?

  So it wasn't moved there? It's been there.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  The other the other problematic issue as Petri put it is that the the maximum width coming into this room is uh smaller than the minimum width of the side of this sarcophagus or bathtub so how did it get in here maybe the room was built around it though right so that's your explanation.

• 1:08:09Danny Jones?

  Oh my god.

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  But to what end and look at the.

• 1:08:12Danny Jones?

  How deep underground on me again 100 feet?

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  I think a little less yeah 75 feet.

• 1:08:18Danny Jones?

  Wow dude.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  It's Kyle.

• 1:08:23Danny Jones?

  Wouldn't you love just to get a time machine and just keep going back and see how the fuck this shit was done?

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Bathtub time machine.

• 1:08:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is the other, the backside of that room. It's almost collapsing.

• 1:08:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Good lord.

• 1:08:44Speaker 03

  Hopefully this box will be still visible in a few years. They won't close the entire pyramid. I hope so.

• 1:08:51Speaker 04

  What is, what is that that they've carved into? Is that solid rock or is it some, is it like just compacted mud?

• 1:09:01Speaker 03

  I'm not sure.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  There is both because some of the mud brick is.

• 1:09:05Danny Jones?

  Well, I'm sure that's a lot of that's modern and reinforced with different things, maybe even concrete or something like that, just to make it. I mean, that's clearly modern, right?

• 1:09:13Speaker 03

  No, this is.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  This is the original.

• 1:09:14Danny Jones?

  Oh, that's original?

• 1:09:15Speaker 03

  This is original, right? Yeah.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  This is salt. This is the red granite. So Petri described these walls.

• 1:09:19Danny Jones?

  Oh, it's the same material as the box?

• 1:09:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  Correct. Ground. They were ground to extreme levels of flatness, but not polished.

• 1:09:26Danny Jones?

  But on the edges, it looks like there's some mortar around it.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  That's modern.

• 1:09:30Danny Jones?

  That's modern, right?

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  Looks like it doesn't, probably doesn't need to be there.

• 1:09:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah, dude, it's just so insane. Like what, like why? Why cut a box into something so precise where there's nothing else around it that's as precise? Right? It seems to be only this box.

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  Most of these boxes in Egypt had lids, so.

• 1:09:56Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, the ones in Serabium had lids.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  A lid fit on top of here, hermetically sealed what was inside, which is why you needed the extreme flatness. We don't know if there was ever a top found. We don't, we don't know. The dynastics at some point did, I think, bury someone in here.

• 1:10:10Danny Jones?

  What is your like wildest hypothesis of like what this could possibly be? Like, I know it's not going to be scientific, right? But like, what's your wild, like, what's, what's your imagine, like, just push your imagination to its limits? What do you think it could be?

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  I think this stuff was repurposed. I, I think it used to look a lot different and it was, it's gonna be really hard to, to hypothesize what was originally used for, what it looked like, but things are moved around.

• 1:10:40Danny Jones?

  Chris Dunn thinks they were used to grow crystals. These boxes. Have you ever talked to him about that?

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  It seems as likely as anything. Sure.

• 1:10:51Danny Jones?

  It seemed plausible. The way he was explaining to me, I don't remember it exactly how he explained it, but the way he was explaining it seemed very, uh, it seemed like it made sense to me at the time he explained it.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  These rooms, these boxes, they're, they're.

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  They're resonant, right? They're, they're harmonically.

• 1:11:07Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  Tuned. These people are obsessed with resonance everywhere, frequency and resonance. So that could, that could fit with that. Theory, sure.

• 1:11:16Danny Jones?

  And what was, do you remember what he was saying about how the crystals were grown?

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  In Lahoon? In this one?

• 1:11:23Danny Jones?

  No, in the cerapium.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  Not exactly. Um.

• 1:11:30Danny Jones?

  Okay, because it has something to do with the boxes being, being more precise on the inside than the outside, like the outside didn't matter. It was the inside that mattered.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  The volume, the volumetric considerations are more important.

• 1:11:40Danny Jones?

  Something about the resonance and something else.

• 1:11:45Danny Jones?

  I would love to hear somebody that could like, explain that theory to me. Yeah, that's crazy. He's holding a, a, a square tool to the edge of it and it's literally perfect. There's no, there's no gaps with that square tool up against the granite.

• 1:11:58Speaker 03

  And we measure the same, not the same spot, but this, this, uh, same angle. And actually, if you fit, um, planes on both the top and this side.

• 1:12:10Speaker 03

  The angle deviation is like point 25 degrees. So it's 90.25.

• 1:12:17Danny Jones?

  That's crazy, dude.

• 1:12:21Danny Jones?

  And it's polished. You can see his reflection in the stone.

• 1:12:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:26Danny Jones?

  I think, I think the chemical, I think, like, I think what Jeffrey Drum talks about with the chemicals, the using it to scoop stuff out and to soften stuff. I think that makes a lot, I'm not a chemist, but I mean, to my layman's brain, I think it makes a lot of sense. Um, and as well as like polishing this stuff. But again, I think these people were just on another technological trajectory than we are on today. And, uh, that's why some of this stuff doesn't make sense to our brains. Because just like the way we're going technologically, just like with combustion engines and with electricity and like, that, that's our foundation for technology. And we like build up from there. We're not really innovating anything different. We're kind of on like a, a very.

• 1:13:08Danny Jones?

  Um, linear trajectory with our technology and it seems like they were on a completely different trajectory than we are now. And that's, I think, why we can't understand it.

• 1:13:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I agree. I agree. I don't really like the speculations because I'm trying to look at these from a scientific point of view and, and I'm afraid if I speculate too much, it will just drift me off the right path.

• 1:13:31Danny Jones?

  Think people will try to dismiss you if you speculate too much?

• 1:13:33Speaker 03

  Also, yeah.

• 1:13:35Danny Jones?

  Right. That's an unfortunate, that's an unfortunate thing that people try to do that. But, I mean, you have to, you have to speculate. I mean, you're measuring it, you're, you're figuring out what this is, how accurate it is, and you're doing all the, the work, you're putting in the work to figure out like, look, these things are like insanely precise. We can't find anyone to re-engineer it, to recreate it. So, I mean, we don't have a time machine. We should at least throw shit against the wall and, and try to use our imaginations and get creative and think like, you know, what could they have been doing? And I think, I mean, even like, you know, sometimes the wildest sci-fi shit ends up being true, you know? You learn about it 20 years later, but it does happen.

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it makes it interesting, but you need, you need theories to disprove. We can't just criticize, you know, silly explanations.

• 1:14:29Danny Jones?

  And you need to step in the arena with, with the people that are pushing back against this stuff and have an, an open dialogue with the people that want to, that want to claim this stuff isn't real or it's not what you think it is, or that want to push back on your claims. Like, that's, that's the only way to figure out, like, what's going on, is to have to these, you know, get in the room with these people and just have a, you know, battle out your ideas and see which one makes the most sense to people. Let the audience decide.

• 1:14:57Danny Jones?

  It's a great thing about the internet. Gets rid of all the gatekeepers. What's this?

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  This is actually the full set we analyzed in the P3 museum.

• 1:15:04Danny Jones?

  Okay, so those are all the ones that you analyzed?

• 1:15:06Speaker 03

  Ascending order.

• 1:15:07Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:15:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the grade outs are not really precise. That's the median circularity of those objects. But there were a few.

• 1:15:18Speaker 03

  Actually, very different materials. This one was diorite, this is limestone, this is granite, all grain, grain, also limestone. So they even achieved similar accuracy in limestone. I don't know why.

• 1:15:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  We, we tend to ignore that, or we used to, because the limestone industry was, was, uh, present throughout dynastic Egypt. So from Old Kingdom all the way to New Kingdom, they did have limestone and alabaster. And they used it extensively. They made jars. You can generally see them. You can see the difference. They're not as symmetrical. They're not as, I guess, precise. And, and I think the explanations of how stone carving for vessels was done relates to these alabaster vessels. That's the, that's the, the, uh, the picture of the forked drill and the methods that are described in, on the walls of tombs of the nobles. I think-

• 1:16:08Danny Jones?

  Like that big bow that they push back and forth.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Some of that's, some of that is, is, is with respect to woodworking, honestly. And then other stuff is alabaster and pottery. Um, it, it doesn't seem like they were ever dabbling in this. They, they probably tried or attempted to it, but, um, I, I suspect this industry is, is from before them. And we know some of it is at least. But look at the range from, all the way to thirty, thirty-one thou. And we were talking about the clay earlier, uh, the nicato vessel and, and, um, and some of the other stuff was, it's orders of magnitude more.

• 1:16:41Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:16:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And I imagine how many people, like, how many people, like you were talking about, own hundreds of these things that no one's ever seen. They've never seen the light of day, you know? Like, there's probably so many more.

• 1:16:51Speaker 03

  You know one.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:53Speaker 03

  Who owns only two hundreds, or?

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I know some people.

• 1:16:56Danny Jones?

  I mean, Matt owns like, what, like a few dozen at least as well?

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  He has more. I think he has probably a hundred now.

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  Um, and there's museums. I mean, I think we think that, the first time I was at the Cairo Museum and saw these twelve, thirteen, fourteen years ago, there was less than a dozen on display. Now you go there and you can see probably hundreds. And it's rumored that they have many thousands in their store rooms and offsite.

• 1:17:23Danny Jones?

  That aren't publicly for display.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:17:27Speaker 03

  But actually, it was also crazy when we went down to the step pyramid where they found several thousands of these, tens of thousands of these. We found vase shards embedded in the walls, in the lower catacombs.

• 1:17:42Danny Jones?

  Vase shards embedded in the walls?

• 1:17:45Speaker 03

  Yes, it was in the foundation of the pyramid.

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  There's three, at least three collapsed chambers when the French expedition was there in the 1920s. Loyet, he found two chambers and described three collapsed ones. And so when we were, there you go.

• 1:18:00Speaker 03

  So if you look at the wall, you can see the fragments.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:18:09Speaker 03

  These are the lowest levels of the pyramid.

• 1:18:11Danny Jones?

  And how do you know these are shards of vases?

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  You can see the, the workmanship up close if you look carefully.

• 1:18:19Danny Jones?

  Okay, oh, so you're, so, so there were some explosions or something? They were, they were like blowing up this stuff to like get through here and then maybe it blew up some vases?

• 1:18:29Speaker 03

  Or it was already collected, broken, and they built the pyramid on top of these?

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  That's possible.

• 1:18:35Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  It, it's, these, these chambers were described as already collapsed when the French team was there.

• 1:18:41Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  So it could have just been, these were, these were crushed by the collapsing ceiling. This whole area looks like Swiss cheese. There's, there's hundreds of miles of tunnels here, so.

• 1:18:49Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, not hundreds of miles, there's miles of tunnels. And so you can easily destabilize.

• 1:18:54Speaker 03

  This is Kyle.

• 1:18:55Danny Jones?

  Wow, man.

• 1:19:04Danny Jones?

  It's crazy. I mean, what more would need to be done? Like, what more could you possibly do? Like, as far as like, taking these things to a, a military defense contractor and scanning them in like the most advanced measuring devices known to man, uh, I don't know, I don't know what else you could do.

• 1:19:24Speaker 03

  We have to do like, uh, we have to collect data and we are on this journey at the moment. We have to scan in multiple museums, scan hundreds of vases, and then draw conclusions based on the big data. Because just picking one or a few.

• 1:19:39Danny Jones?

  How many do you need? Do they say? Is there like a, is there like a rule of how many you need to like qualify for the scientific community to accept this stuff?

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  I mean, other papers have been done with, with far less, but.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  The bigger, the better, the more comprehensive study, the more comparative analysis, the more, the bigger a control sample size. And then, you know, the alabaster industry existed for at least 2,000 years in Egypt, in dynastic Egypt. So having a, having a good, you know, library and data set of that would be helpful as well. But again, the most precise ones come from, at least are traditionally attributed to Nakhtetra, which is thousands of years before dynastic Egypt. So that's, that's a huge starting point. That's not disputed.

• 1:20:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:20:26Speaker 02

  Right? And we're talking about things that it appears that we needed. In order to make these, we need an explanation that exceeds what's currently attributed to that culture. They, we don't believe that culture had the technology to make those. So that's, that's a, that's a really interesting starting point.

• 1:20:43Danny Jones?

  Well, it seems like the burden of evidence is on the people who say that this was attributed to that, that those people.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's an extraordinary claim, which requires extraordinary evidence.

• 1:20:52Danny Jones?

  Yes, exactly, exactly.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's, we'll get into that later, but we, we'd like to see more attempts.

• 1:21:00Danny Jones?

  Who's in charge?

• 1:21:04Danny Jones?

  Who has to do that? Like, who, like, who, who is the, like, the ultimate person or group of people who, who make that evidence or make that claim into fact?

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  Well, in the past, it was Europe. European archaeologists and museums. Now it's, I think it's largely Egyptians that can take this, that can take this back. It's their culture, it's their, it's their inheritance, right? It's theirs to grab and to move forward. So I, I think we'll see some of that. We, we're already starting to see it now. They're, they're much more receptive to these types of things. Not all of them, but some of them are. Whereas 20, 30 years ago, it was nobody.

• 1:21:48Danny Jones?

  So it's like people like Zahi Hawass, like people like him and, and these people, because he, like, there's a lot of these people, like, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't know everything about people like, like him specifically, but a lot of these folks are, are tied up in.

• 1:22:05Danny Jones?

  The government and like policy and stuff like that. So there there could be some sort of hidden incentives for them to like maintain a narrative.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  There's there's more and more people on those committees on the the antiquities committees that are not from Egyptology that come from other scientific disciplines.

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  So you're talking about like physics, aerospace, industrial design, structural design. People like that are now more more and more apart of the ministry. So I think that that'll help, right? They're not they don't have this indoctrination, this this entire subset of a of belief system that they have to bring in with them. They can approach these things from an from an open mind. Like, assuming I didn't know anything about Egyptology, how would I think this was made? How could this logic chain make sense? And and you see some, I think you see people starting to really question some of this stuff. Not all of it. The dynastic Egyptians were a very impressive group of people, right? They had unbelievable achievements in in medicine, astronomy, physics, engineering, mathematics.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  I mean, it was they were the most impressive group of people that that we know of up until that point and then for the next two or 3,000 years, I think. So not this, we're not taking anything away from them whatsoever.

• 1:23:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  But it's possible that some of the things that they're given credit for were actually inheritance.

• 1:23:31Danny Jones?

  And what is this image here?

• 1:23:32Speaker 03

  So when we were in London for the Petri Museum scan, I found this marble toothbrush holder in the Airbnb. And we ran some practice runs with the scanner before the appointment. And also, it was very good to have a modern reference. So I'm sure it's a mass product. It was made on a lathe or something with a modern machine.

• 1:23:54Danny Jones?

  And it's marble.

• 1:23:55Speaker 03

  And it's marble. It's it's it's not as hard as as granite. And the median circularity was 50 microns, which is 2,000ths.

• 1:24:07Speaker 03

  So these ways, the OG vase is more precise.

• 1:24:14Danny Jones?

  And it's granite.

• 1:24:15Speaker 03

  Because it's too, sorry, it was a six or seven, 10,000ths.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  So marble softer, it's a simple design. You can do this, it's effectively a cylinder, which means you can use well-known grinding techniques.

• 1:24:30Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  Which are not, which don't impart a lot of friction on the, on the object.

• 1:24:34Speaker 03

  So this modern, this modern marble toothbrush holder was on the level of this one. This is 70 microns and the toothbrush holder is 50.

• 1:24:45Danny Jones?

  Okay. Wow. That's bizarre.

• 1:24:50Speaker 03

  It is.

• 1:24:52Danny Jones?

  Now, have you guys tried to come up with, I don't know, we've kind of talked about this already, but have you, have you been trying to come up with any sort of theories on how they could have done it?

• 1:25:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, like he mentioned Chris King, we speak to machinists and stone carvers. And so we, you know, welcome their ideas and maybe that helps formulate what we think might have happened. And then hopefully we can rule some things out over time. But it, you know, when you're, when you're talking about today, when we're making a baseball bat and we're spinning something around at a high RPM on a lathe, using a fixed cutting piece, that, that doesn't seem to be a good explanation because it would strike these hard crystals in the ground mass, like the quartz and the feldspar. It would get sucked into the body. And so you're really, I think, talking about something that's removing material in a very unbiased way, like evenly. And that's, and that's grinding and we, and we have grinding techniques that can,

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  that can achieve this level of, of accuracy that don't need to be computer controlled or anything like that. However, this is, this is complex spherical geometry. So we're not going to be able to explain all the, all these little thin radii everywhere and, and the contouring with that explanation alone or the interior.

• 1:26:11Speaker 03

  Chris King thinks that basically if you have a very sophisticated lathe made out of primitive materials like dark African, I think black wood, and very hard materials, you can make something round to like 100 microns, 2000ths or something like that.

• 1:26:35Speaker 03

  He thinks it's possible. The problem that we haven't seen those sophisticated tools from this culture. They haven't found. And if we go down to the level of this one. I think that's a different level.

• 1:26:50Danny Jones?

  What does he say? As far as like what type of tools they would need to be?

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  You could do this work with wood and stone. You wouldn't necessarily need metal. But it has to be calibrated and fixed in a very rigid spindle. You know, your axis of rotation has to be extremely rigid and fixed. That's how you impart roundness and transfer roundness from something that is round or moving in a round fashion to something that you want it to be. Uh, and so I think it's possible that you could build a machine out of wood and stone. But you have to know what you're doing. And that would be, you know, that's never been described or documented by any of these cultures, the Egyptians or the Akkad cultures. But the Egyptians documented everything. Right? In their lives. I think that's well known.

• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  And they documented extensively processes for making pottery, making furniture and things like that. So they never mentioned these at all. They never really mentioned any of the megalithic projects that we see out there. And if they had the capability of doing them, especially something that appears to be mundane, yet they never mentioned it at all.

• 1:27:56Speaker 02

  We don't see other records of revolving or rotating tools. We just don't.

• 1:28:02Danny Jones?

  So if it was used with stone, would they also have been able to use stone to grind down the boxes and make the boxes so perfect? Or even use them, use stone to make the cuts in those big rocks that you see like around the pyramid that Ben talks about that look like big circular blades cut them?

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  Possible. I don't think that that explains everything. No. They certainly could have had metal, but if you're asking where are the tools, they used copper for thousands of years and we found 10, maybe 20 copper saws total.

• 1:28:33Speaker 02

  Ever. So if if millions of people were using something for thousands of years and we found ten or twenty, that could give you, you know, that can give you an example of how tools might not survive.

• 1:28:45Speaker 03

  But what if they had iron tools? That's a very nice idea, I think, that would elevate or put this entire question or race topic on a different level. And recently I have interviewed a German gentleman on my show and he was the guy who sampled the Kufu graffiti in the Great Pyramid.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  Who did what?

• 1:29:05Speaker 03

  He sampled the Kufu graffiti.

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:29:08Speaker 03

  And there was a huge Interpol case. Zaha was tried to put them in jail, etc.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  Whoa!

• 1:29:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was very big. And...

• 1:29:18Speaker 02

  Why did he try to put them in jail?

• 1:29:20Speaker 03

  Because, so they had permissions to to sample, special permissions to to take samples from the King's Chamber ceiling. Because they found interesting black tongs, like like some kind of tool marks, like some residue on the ceiling blocks. And they sampled that, they had some time left and they went up to these relieving chambers and they also sampled the Kufu graffiti. That's the main inscription in the Great Pyramid, which is...

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  So they were naughty, they did a little extra.

• 1:29:52Speaker 03

  Which is attaching the pyramid to Kufu. And they they had permissions for this from the the guards who were with them. But after they tried to release the results, they tried to announce something about it. There was a huge case of that. But they found magnetite in the King's Chamber.

• 1:30:16Speaker 02

  What's that?

• 1:30:17Speaker 03

  It's like a residue when you have a very rudimental iron smelting process.

• 1:30:26Speaker 03

  They found this iron residue with some magnetite in the king's chamber on the ceiling blocks and they made an experiment. They created 16 tons of concrete block and they have made some kind of U shaped holder, put it underneath this block and there was a space where you can put some metal wedges inside or basically underneath this block and they hammered in these wedges and they could elevate this 16 ton block in like one hour 10 centimeters with two people.

• 1:31:06Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 1:31:07Speaker 03

  And their idea is that that's how they elevated and moved these huge and massive granite blocks.

• 1:31:16Danny Jones?

  With iron.

• 1:31:18Speaker 03

  With iron. And they also found some iron tools in the Great Pyramid. There was also iron found, I think, in pre-dynastic era. So probably they could have iron before. I think iron tools were first mentioned, like iron smelting is beginning with the heat tights, if I'm not mistaken.

• 1:31:40Danny Jones?

  Well, there's a guy, there's a guy on YouTube who does this stuff, who moves these big blocks using just like, like gravity and pulleys and stuff like this.

• 1:31:50Speaker 03

  He built a stone hedge in his garden by himself.

• 1:31:53Danny Jones?

  Well, there was another, there was two guys. There's one who does like YouTube videos. There's another guy who had this place Coral Castle, which is in South Florida, who elevated these. Leeds Gelling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he did that not that long ago and there, I forget the guy's name who does this stuff, but he basically takes these giant blocks and he like uses big wood levers to like rotate them and like to put that, move them into place and it's, it's, it's wild to see.

• 1:32:19Danny Jones?

  So like if they were, if they were able to understand physics well enough, you know, it seems reasonable that they could have, you know, moved some of these blocks into place and like stacked them in a certain way, but still like, it doesn't explain the cutting though. It doesn't explain the cutting and like the perfection of like, of the, the, the edges of the Great Pyramid, which are like, if you measure the outside of the Great Pyramid, it's like 10 times more square than any of the skyscrapers in Manhattan. You know, like when you have to build a skyscraper, they have to be according to code, you know, within a certain deviation of like perfection before you can start building it.

• 1:33:02Danny Jones?

  And the pyramid is like 10 times more perfect than even like the biggest skyscrapers that we have. So like, it doesn't, it doesn't really explain that.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  And that, and that gets into the time it would take, right? There's no way you're going to fit that, that, not that degree of work into a 20 or 25 year timeline.

• 1:33:20Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah. And the conventional explanation is that how long did it take to build the Great Pyramid?

• 1:33:26Speaker 02

  Well, they, they, they think it's still, it's still supposedly 20, 25 years, something like that. Funny enough though, in South America, they don't think that. You'll, you can ask someone about Teotihuacan and they may say, yeah, it probably took a hundred years or more.

• 1:33:38Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  How could you have done it in any, you know, in any other timeline? That would be a minimum. So it depends who you ask.

• 1:33:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:47Speaker 03

  So my point was that I think if they would have iron tools, it would be a completely different conversation. And my problem with Flynn DeBose's explanation, if you have a compass, you can make a round feature. Yeah, you can do that.

• 1:34:01Danny Jones?

  If you have what?

• 1:34:02Speaker 03

  If you have a compass.

• 1:34:03Danny Jones?

  Oh, a compass. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:05Speaker 03

  But you still have to hold on to the piece.

• 1:34:08Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:34:09Speaker 03

  Which, have you seen these, these large vases in the, in the British Museum in London? It's huge. What kind of tool would you put it in? Like it's, it's like a big boulder.

• 1:34:21Danny Jones?

  Really? You have a picture of it?

• 1:34:24Speaker 03

  Uh, maybe Steve, if you, uh, I'm, I'm not sure.

• 1:34:28Danny Jones?

  I'm sure you can find it.

• 1:34:29Speaker 03

  I don't have it here.

• 1:34:30Danny Jones?

  Right. So it's so big that they wouldn't be able to use like a, a lathe.

• 1:34:36Speaker 03

  Oh, I have it too.

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  If you're, you have, the piece has to be affixed somewhere, right? So if you only have one point, you generally would want two for stability, but whatever's carving out the interior.

• 1:34:48Danny Jones?

  Yep.

• 1:34:48Speaker 02

  Assume it's like an L shaped in order to get it in there to hollow that out.

• 1:34:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:52Speaker 02

  Um, the longer you are away, the further you are away.

• 1:34:57Speaker 03

  Look at, sorry, look at the people and look at the sizes of these two on the right.

• 1:35:03Speaker 03

  Just a minute.

• 1:35:04Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:05Speaker 03

  A second.

• 1:35:07Speaker 03

  These ones.

• 1:35:08Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:35:09Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:35:09Danny Jones?

  Holy cow.

• 1:35:11Speaker 03

  And this is the end product. If you look at, if you would look at the raw material, it's much larger.

• 1:35:17Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:35:18Speaker 03

  And this is the explanation.

• 1:35:20Danny Jones?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:35:21Speaker 03

  Like this.

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  So that's what we were talking about earlier from, from tombs of the nobles and.

• 1:35:26Speaker 03

  This is works.

• 1:35:27Danny Jones?

  So the same people who, who drew, who carved this, uh, depiction are supposedly the same people who made the, the pottery.

• 1:35:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, but this works for alabaster.

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  Funny enough, no, this was made almost 2000 years later than the traditional dating.

• 1:35:40Danny Jones?

  Oh, really? Interesting.

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. And some of these were actually painted on, uh, on like stucco walls.

• 1:35:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's six dynasty. If I zoom in, I cannot. Yeah, the, the painting itself is six dynasty and usually these, these big, uh, bases are much older. But this painting or this depiction works for the alabaster bases.

• 1:36:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:36:05Speaker 03

  But they want to apply that explanation to these.

• 1:36:09Danny Jones?

  And then how do you explain the handles?

• 1:36:13Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't.

• 1:36:14Danny Jones?

  Built into it.

• 1:36:14Speaker 02

  Do we have to like? Whose job is that?

• 1:36:17Danny Jones?

  I mean, how do you do that on a lathe, right? Like how, what, like?

• 1:36:20Speaker 02

  You would remove, it would be a toroid shape and you'd remove what's inside of it. And if, if you actually, you want to go back to the heat map of the OG, you can almost see a line. Where it looks like it was a toroidal, there you go. See that blue, very faint blue line on, on the top.

• 1:36:32Danny Jones?

  Of which one?

• 1:36:32Speaker 02

  Parallel with the top handles on the right.

• 1:36:34Speaker 03

  On the OG.

• 1:36:34Speaker 02

  You can see, there seems to be a strip.

• 1:36:36Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:36:37Speaker 02

  Right. So that would have been removed.

• 1:36:41Speaker 02

  Your original pass would have left that and then you would remove it. But look how perfect it's aligned to the rest of the body.

• 1:36:48Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. That's interesting.

• 1:36:50Speaker 02

  You would no longer be able to, to spin it.

• 1:36:53Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:36:56Danny Jones?

  Yeah, dude, it's so crazy.

• 1:36:58Speaker 03

  So you still have to hold on to these with a rigid,

• 1:37:02Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:37:02Speaker 03

  massive mechanism or some kind of, I would say machine, it can be a wooden machine. It doesn't have to be a five axis CNC. But still, you can draw a perfect circle, but how would you make it in a very rigid material like this?

• 1:37:18Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:37:22Danny Jones?

  I don't know, man. The stuff is, this stuff is beyond my comprehension. I don't know. I can't, it just doesn't compute. You know, I don't, I don't know how they, they could have possibly done this stuff.

• 1:37:37Danny Jones?

  Um.

• 1:37:38Speaker 02

  I don't think we do either.

• 1:37:39Danny Jones?

  What do you make of, what do you make of that, that recent thing that came out with the, they went under the pier, they found these big things under the pyramids, these big like vertical columns under the pyramids?

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• 1:38:47Danny Jones?

  What do you make of that? Have you looked into that at all?

• 1:38:49Speaker 03

  I have interviewed those two Italian guys.

• 1:38:51Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:38:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. Actually, I think they are really smart. Actually, the guy who made this algorithm and this entire, so the engineering part of it. He's also an electrical engineer, telecommunications engineer, holds several masters and a PhD. So he's a brilliant guy. And I think something went sideways with the explanation. So they probably couldn't transfer the full knowledge. And everyone thinks that it's bullshit. So in my understanding, they are using these satellites to shoot radio waves to the, to the ground, basically.

• 1:39:35Speaker 03

  And they are measuring the frequency shift in these radio signals caused by the earth's crust movements. So if you are familiar with the Doppler effect, when the ambulance car is moving and using the siren, the movement of the car is causing a pitch shift in the sound.

• 1:40:00Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:40:01Speaker 03

  So basically, when the earth moves, I hope I can give it back properly. But when the, when the earth's crust moves, very low-level seismic activities, they can sense this as a frequency shift.

• 1:40:17Danny Jones?

  Right, okay.

• 1:40:18Speaker 03

  And then they can estimate what's on the ground.

• 1:40:22Danny Jones?

  And this is new technology that they use to find this? Or is this stuff been around?

• 1:40:29Speaker 03

  The SAR technology.

• 1:40:32Danny Jones?

  SAR stands, yes.

• 1:40:33Speaker 03

  That's existing.

• 1:40:34Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:40:35Speaker 03

  Military is using it.

• 1:40:36Danny Jones?

  So my understanding was that, from whoever explained this to me, was that whatever stuff they used to detect this stuff under the pyramids was new or something, some sort of novel technology?

• 1:40:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, they refined it to be able to go deeper and to be able to analyze this deeper, basically. But... It depends on the model you have out of this.

• 1:41:04Danny Jones?

  That's crazy.

• 1:41:05Speaker 03

  This bedrock, so you need to have a good approximation of the bedrock. If it's limestone, what's the geophysical properties of that block? Or that stone you are looking at? And a lot of people are confused, probably. What are those rendered images? Like, is it made by AI or something?

• 1:41:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah, well, yeah.

• 1:41:33Speaker 03

  In my understanding, they try to make it more understandable. They can interpret these heat maps and images, but we cannot.

• 1:41:41Danny Jones?

  So this image we're looking at right now, Steve, this is the that one on the right and the left. Those are like the actual, that's the actual data scans that we got from this SAR stuff. And then people came in and did like artistic renditions of it to make it more palatable.

• 1:41:59Speaker 03

  They did it.

• 1:42:01Danny Jones?

  Yeah, oh, they did it, okay.

• 1:42:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:03Danny Jones?

  And these people have a YouTube channel where they cover this stuff, right? They have these Italian dudes.

• 1:42:08Speaker 03

  I don't think they have. I'm not.

• 1:42:09Danny Jones?

  Oh, no?

• 1:42:10Speaker 03

  I'm not sure.

• 1:42:12Danny Jones?

  Oh, I thought they did. I thought, did we have somebody who like showed us their YouTube channel, Steve?

• 1:42:16Speaker 04

  I think that was Jeffrey Drum?

• 1:42:19Danny Jones?

  No, it wasn't Jeffrey Drum. It was more recent.

• 1:42:22Speaker 04

  So what you're talking about, the more artsy stuff, right?

• 1:42:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's the more artsy stuff.

• 1:42:26Speaker 03

  And they also scan known structures.

• 1:42:30Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:42:31Speaker 03

  Like the Osiris shaft also.

• 1:42:33Danny Jones?

  And it was accurate?

• 1:42:35Speaker 03

  I mean, my question is the interpretation. Is it biased because the structure is known? Or is it full automated interpretation done by the model they use? So I don't know. I think Kyle from the Snake Bros said once that they should scan something unknown and then excavate it and compare to be 100% sure.

• 1:43:01Danny Jones?

  Well, yeah, if you can scan something where you know what's, you know, like scan a shaft or a pyramid's interior where you know you already explored it and the data that comes back correlates with what you already know is real, then that's a good way of testing whether this technology works or not. And then if you do something unknown and it shows you something like this, then you should, I mean, that's a pretty good proxy for if it's accurate, right?

• 1:43:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:25Danny Jones?

  So they, I mean, and then now, I don't know what, if anyone's proposed to try to like dig and explore this or not, but.

• 1:43:35Speaker 03

  It would be really hard, in my opinion, to dig under the pyramid.

• 1:43:39Danny Jones?

  It's mostly bedrock, so.

• 1:43:41Speaker 03

  And also the pyramids and who would allow this, probably a different group has to verify this to get the permit for any digging. But they also scanned two years ago, the Great Pyramid. This is under the Middle Pyramid. They also scanned the Great Pyramid.

• 1:43:57Danny Jones?

  Oh, this was under the Middle Pyramid?

• 1:43:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:59Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:44:00Speaker 03

  And they found hidden chambers.

• 1:44:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah, right. They found one the size of a jumbo jet, like above the Grand Gallery, right? Or like a 747. That was the size of that cavity that they haven't explored yet.

• 1:44:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:44:17Danny Jones?

  Which is crazy. Like, they did that years ago. And that was the Scan Pyramid Project, I believe. And they still haven't like drilled into it or, yeah, right there, the hidden chamber.

• 1:44:28Speaker 03

  The Italian guys scanned the Great Pyramid and found.

• 1:44:31Danny Jones?

  Those guys found that chamber, that hidden chamber?

• 1:44:34Speaker 03

  No, no, no. That's the Scan Pyramid.

• 1:44:35Danny Jones?

  That's Scan Pyramid.

• 1:44:35Speaker 03

  The Italian guys, Steve, if you look for, or search for Knum Kufu Synthetic Aperture Radar, it should show the.

• 1:44:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I mean, how long ago? How long has it been since Chris Dunn found those two electric probes, those two metal prongs at the end of Gate and Brink's door, right? Like, there's no, they did it on national TV for like a huge documentary. And there's still no explanation for that.

• 1:45:13Danny Jones?

  What is this? Is this it?

• 1:45:14Speaker 03

  I think that's an AI image on the left. Uh, the second image was a little bit better in the result. Yeah, that one. They have also this.

• 1:45:23Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah, I've seen this.

• 1:45:25Speaker 03

  And those chambers are mostly unknown.

• 1:45:28Danny Jones?

  So the green one, number nineteen, is the, uh, the, the, the big chamber cavity. Probably. They have not explored yet.

• 1:45:36Speaker 03

  And there are these ramps all around. That's also unknown.

• 1:45:41Danny Jones?

  And there's also, which Chris Don explains, is there's these big, I didn't know about that until I talked to him, was there's these big, um, like holes in the ground on the outside of the, uh, Great Pyramid. That he says they connect into the shafts that go up to like the king's chamber and the queen's chamber. Yeah, that's the rumor. He hypothesizes that you could, that they could have poured chemicals in there and it would have fed up those shafts. And like gone through like into the chambers or something like this.

• 1:46:07Speaker 03

  Probably. I have no idea, but I'm sure that a lot of those tunnels under the Giza Plateau probably are connected or were connected to the, to one of those or all of the pyramids. If you go down to those iris shafts, it's like hundred meters deep, probably with three levels. The lower level is, uh, filled with groundwater, basically. But there are one or two shafts relatively closed. I think Zahi Hawass found this in the late nineties or something. They tried to excavate. They couldn't. They, they faced with like mud. They, they couldn't go forward. They couldn't proceed. They, once they found a small kid in that tunnel and the kid also,

• 1:46:52Speaker 03

  I mean, he found a blocked entrance or a blocked tunnel. They don't know what's, what is it connected to. But if you look at the, the subterranean chamber of the Great Pyramid, I, I think that's a good, good. Option. So maybe the subterranean chamber is connected to the Ozirid shaft or one of these shafts.

• 1:47:18Danny Jones?

  Well, the subterranean chamber, I mean, it's like almost impossible to get a human down there. Like a big person can't even barely get down there, you know?

• 1:47:26Speaker 02

  Into that tunnel, yeah.

• 1:47:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that that very bottom shaft where Chris Dunn thinks that there was like a hydraulic device that like hammered the ground and like and like and like made mini earthquakes. Right? And that's just a whole hypothesis of how it's like a solid state electron harvester that like

• 1:47:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:42Danny Jones?

  Uh, uh, builds electrons through all the igneous rock through the pyramid and like somehow created a free electricity or something like this.

• 1:47:52Danny Jones?

  It's a wild, it's a wild hypothesis, but I mean, he, I mean, he's the guy to do it. I mean, he literally came up with the whole reverse engineering diagram of how it would work and how those chemicals would interact and how it could theoretically create some sort of a free energy. But again, I mean, that's applying our knowledge of uh, technology to something that was, you know, thousands and thousands of years ago. So.

• 1:48:20Danny Jones?

  I don't know. What are you guys gonna do next? What's what's your plan? What's your plan moving forward?

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  We have a few things on this, on the schedule during um, we're looking at some um, pre-pottery Neolithic.

• 1:48:33Speaker 02

  Lithics, basically like stone arrowheads and we're sort of tracing them from Egypt to the Middle East. We're doing um, we want to go back that we have some stuff to do at the quarry. We have uh, we still, hopefully we'll get into the Cairo Museum one day. Um, that's the plan. Uh, and so there's, I think. Scanning small things and looking at big things and looking at larger, I think, stories is all part of the, all part of the exploration. These things all feed into one each other. I don't, I don't think we, we could understand the vases without understanding the culture, understanding other aspects of their technological set. So there, you know, it's very related. It's related. If you, if you know how they approached astronomy and math and physics, it's, it's related to fabrication, it's related to stone carving.

• 1:49:19Speaker 02

  So I think we're, we're kind of like comprehensively looking at these cultures, but I, I do agree with what you said. You saw similarities between this level of work and the megalithic projects, right? Like the pyramids, I, I tend to agree with that. I think it might've been a related culture.

• 1:49:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah, there's a lot of things, right? I mean, there's not just the pyramids and the, and, and these vases, but like the serapeum boxes and the box that you showed. It seems like the same culture or the, the same type of technology was involved in creating all of those things. So like, other than those things, like the pyramid and the vases and the boxes, and the scoop marks, and like all the crazy symmetry, like what else can you use to help put this picture together of what, what and when the civilization existed? Like, what do you look for? Where do you look?

• 1:50:18Speaker 03

  Huge part of the Sahara is not excavated and discovered yet. So who knows what's, what else is under the sand?

• 1:50:27Danny Jones?

  Which part of the Sahara?

• 1:50:28Speaker 03

  Huge part.

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  Everything to the west of the, of the Nile.

• 1:50:32Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:50:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there has been some surveying, but it's not, you know, we're not looking at every square meter or square mile.

• 1:50:42Danny Jones?

  It's like Mad Max out there. It's a, it's law, it's lawless out there. And that's where that big, um, that big circular, uh, what's it called? The big circular thing, the eye of the Sahara?

• 1:50:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:54Danny Jones?

  Where that is.

• 1:50:54Speaker 03

  Reshot, reshot structure.

• 1:50:55Danny Jones?

  The reshot structure, right? Which I think Randall Carlson thinks it's like the top of a, a dead volcano or something like that. But, um, no one's been out there to explore it. I mean, there's all kinds of people who talk about that and like speculate on what it could be. And, uh, I, I have never heard anyone who's actually like been there and like dug into it or like really done like a detailed now, like people fly over it, right? But like, who's been on the ground studying that?

• 1:51:21Speaker 02

  It was only about 7,000 B.C. when the Sahara was lush. I mean, it, it used to rain 100 times more than it does now.

• 1:51:27Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:51:28Speaker 02

  And so that's not, that's only a few thousand years before these other cultures we've just been talking about.

• 1:51:33Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:34Speaker 02

  So we don't even have to go back pre-Ice Age or, or that far. There's, there's a lot there. For mainstream archaeologists right now.

• 1:51:43Danny Jones?

  Do you know of anybody who's who's trying to dig in this place and trying to like excavate it or anything?

• 1:51:48Speaker 02

  Here?

• 1:51:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah, the Reshot Structure.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  No, I I I know of people like Jimmy Corsetti that talk about this and call for it, but I don't know if anybody's actively.

• 1:51:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and there's and it's not just this. So much of this planet has not been touched, right? Like you like Egypt. Cairo is like a it's like a tourist destination. But how many spots of this earth have not been excavated and not been like combed over? Or or researched or explored like a ton of it. And we don't know what it is because we probably don't know about a lot of it, right?

• 1:52:27Speaker 03

  Also underwater sites.

• 1:52:28Danny Jones?

  And underwater, right?

• 1:52:30Speaker 03

  Huge.

• 1:52:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah, the ocean is like seventy percent of this planet.

• 1:52:34Speaker 03

  And I hope I can say that that in the future, in the long term, the Artifact Foundation is planning on excavations and also underwater discoveries. So hopefully, if we get the right.

• 1:52:48Speaker 02

  You can say that.

• 1:52:49Speaker 03

  Hopefully, if we get on the right path and if we can publish and if we can establish a like a solid background in this kind of research, we will be able to acquire permits for this kind of stuff.

• 1:53:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I mean, even think like, yeah, like the Antikythera device that was found underwater. That thing's insane.

• 1:53:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:53:09Danny Jones?

  And I don't think there's ever been another one found like that. I think that's the only one. That's one of one.

• 1:53:15Danny Jones?

  And if they had something like that to like navigate the stars or navigate using like planetary alignment. You know, who knows what else they could have been doing?

• 1:53:25Speaker 03

  It was actually simulating the elliptical path of the of the planets, even before Kepler knew that. So the antiquity mechanism was kind of a advanced calendar, like a computer to calculate where those stars will be at a certain amount or certain point in time.

• 1:53:49Speaker 03

  Probably they use it for Olympic Games, but the movement of the planets were simulating the elliptical movement, which was not known until Kepler.

• 1:53:59Speaker 02

  Quote unquote known. There's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of inheritance going on here, right?

• 1:54:04Speaker 03

  And this entire device was sitting in a storage of a museum for fifty years or something.

• 1:54:09Danny Jones?

  Right. Well, they found it in a shipwreck, right? Underwater?

• 1:54:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:54:12Danny Jones?

  And they kind of like, they kind of like refurbished it and, and, and brought it back and figured out what it could have been. But, you know, yeah, there's a lot of the oceans that have, have not been explored and, you know, there's lots of really unique structures that have been found. That we can't really excavate that look that just straight up don't look natural. So.

• 1:54:35Speaker 02

  It, it shows you how much we have to do because how could that be the only one of those devices ever made?

• 1:54:41Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, it's not that they're, they had to have made more. What is this? A recreation of it?

• 1:54:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a recreation.

• 1:54:48Speaker 04

  So, yeah, we were, we were able to scan it and basically recreate it.

• 1:54:55Danny Jones?

  It's insane, man.

• 1:54:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:00Danny Jones?

  And do we know what, when they would have made this? Is there like a date attached to this thing?

• 1:55:06Speaker 03

  If I'm not mistaken, the established date is like a hundred B.C. or something like that.

• 1:55:13Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:55:15Speaker 03

  Based on the shipwreck they found it in.

• 1:55:18Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:55:18Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:55:20Danny Jones?

  So it's, it's, yeah.

• 1:55:21Speaker 03

  The other problems.

• 1:55:22Danny Jones?

  Could be older.

• 1:55:23Speaker 03

  The other problem is with, with this metal or iron tools, if they would have. By thousands of years, it would basically disappear completely.

• 1:55:35Danny Jones?

  Right. Metal wouldn't survive.

• 1:55:36Speaker 03

  Turn into rust.

• 1:55:39Danny Jones?

  Well, if we were wiped out right now, in a thousand years, all that would be left are like. Giant, like the Hoover Dam would still be here. The Washington Monument would probably still be here. But we wouldn't see any buildings. The buildings would be basically disintegrated. All metal would be gone. Right?

• 1:55:56Speaker 02

  We'd see stone toothbrush holders and.

• 1:55:58Danny Jones?

  You'd see this stuff. Exactly. Right?

• 1:56:04Danny Jones?

  Crazy shit, man. And then you guys have a foundation or something like this? You guys are...

• 1:56:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, ArtifactFoundation.org. We do our best to communicate the work that we've been doing, especially when we can. Sometimes we have to wait because of agreements, but we... Our job is to communicate this stuff. And, you know, we're not solely in Egypt. We also do work in other places, Asia, North and South America. And we're launching a competition right now. So there's been a lot of criticism, there's a lot of opinions about what's possible. What can humans have been able to do by hand with guided or unguided tools? And so, we're launching... The Artifact Foundation is sponsoring an Experimental Archaeology Challenge.

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  So there's a $25,000 prize to the stone carver, the experienced craftsman that's able to actually replicate one of these vessels close to what we've measured. So we're not expecting, you know, we're not expecting sub-10,000ths of an inch circularity, but the tools need to be true. Here are the basic rules. The tools need to be true to the time period by which these are attributed to. So we're talking about Nakhtetpet, early dynastic Egypt. Stone tools, wood, copper would be fine. But these people were not known to have had the wheel. So using the wheel or the lathe would be a violation of what they're attributed to or known to have had.

• 1:57:34Speaker 02

  This must be documented, so we want a regular cadence. So a video, a short video clip once a week, or a picture every day of the work and the progress.

• 1:57:44Speaker 03

  No cheating?

• 1:57:45Speaker 02

  No cheating.

• 1:57:48Speaker 02

  Complex geometry, so not a simple cylinder, right? So we're looking for the vessel where the interior is hollowed out to the same contour as the exterior.

• 1:57:55Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:57:55Speaker 02

  And then in terms of circularity, the goal, and the prize winner is going to achieve a thousandth of an inch median circularity on the outside and 3,000ths of an inch median circularity on the inside.

• 1:58:09Danny Jones?

  And so what those guys did, the scientists versus myth or whatever, that wouldn't count?

• 1:58:15Speaker 02

  It wouldn't count for a few reasons. They didn't achieve the the precision that we've measured time and time again now in ancient vessels and they used uh, modern equipment. They use modern equipment to measure the deviation and then to remove those high spots when they when they used a

• 1:58:34Speaker 02

  when they use that wheel apparatus with with the ball bearings in it. They were taking something that was that was capable of

• 1:58:41Danny Jones?

  So they were just like scanning it and figuring out what was wrong, where the deviations were, where it was not perfect and they were retooling it after that?

• 1:58:47Speaker 03

  No, not that scanning. Just imagine a pottery wheel, like an easel, easy like potter's wheel with a metal bearing. They put the weights on, they turn it around and they

• 1:59:02Speaker 03

  hold or held like a pencil or something by hand to check the high spots.

• 1:59:07Danny Jones?

  Got it.

• 1:59:08Speaker 03

  And then they remove those.

• 1:59:09Speaker 02

  The wheel is perfectly round and so it's going to tell you when there's something off.

• 1:59:13Speaker 03

  But they use the modern metal bearing.

• 1:59:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:59:16Speaker 03

  Which is

• 1:59:18Speaker 03

  probably the dynastics or pre dynastics didn't have that.

• 1:59:21Danny Jones?

  Right. What if somebody was able to create something with some different methods, right? Like without, because I mean, I don't think that I think reason would suggest that this was not done with pounding stones and copper tools that the Egyptologists claim it was made by. But what if like somebody was able to figure out some sort of like chemical or um, I don't know, some unconventional method that you would have never thought of?

• 1:59:46Speaker 02

  We have a simple application process on our website. So submit that that proposal and um.

• 1:59:52Danny Jones?

  What's the website called?

• 1:59:53Speaker 02

  Artifactfoundation.org.

• 1:59:55Danny Jones?

  Artifactfoundation.org.

• 1:59:57Speaker 03

  And if anyone is interested in in-depth documentary style videos of our research and the results, actually, then they can find these on my channel on YouTube. They can just search for my name, Karoly K A R O L Y Poka, or look for Ancient Technology Podcast.

• 2:00:18Danny Jones?

  And are you guys, are you guys um partnered with any um, like conventional Egyptologists folks or or um?

• 2:00:29Speaker 02

  We talked to them, yeah. We talked to a lot of them. We do. I would say we're not officially associated with any universities. But we do have advisors that are at various universities in Europe and in America.

• 2:00:44Danny Jones?

  That are working with you on the foundation and all this stuff, okay.

• 2:00:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, they vet the work that we do. They help with the algorithm.

• 2:00:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, so one very important part that probably multiple people or several people are analyzing these scans. But I think it's very important to that the methods we are using for the analysis is vetted by different independent persons. Like, we have actually three people analyze the software I have designed with all with PhD math, 3D reconstruction and computer vision backgrounds. And I think it's very important to not use a software which hasn't been vetted by.

• 2:01:30Speaker 03

  So when I look at different analyses of these ancient vessels, my question is how did they align the object? So it's a crucial part of the analysis. If you don't align it perfectly, it will screw up your entire slicing method and calculations. If you don't calculate the root mean square distances or the data point deviations correctly, it will also give you a different result. So I think it's very important to be on the safe side.

• 2:02:01Danny Jones?

  Cool. Well, I'm looking forward to see how this stuff pans out and how this whole project progresses with you guys. I'll be keeping an eye on it. And we'll link the foundation, your YouTube channel, all that stuff below. Is there anything else that we should tell people?

• 2:02:16Speaker 02

  No, it's about it. Thanks.

• 2:02:17Danny Jones?

  All right. Cool. Thanks for your time, guys.

• 2:02:19Speaker 03

  And pick you one if you like.

• 2:02:20Danny Jones?

  Oh, hell yes, I will. Awesome. All right, good night.

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