Empress Matilda: civil war in medieval England

Greg Jenner is joined in twelfth-century England by Dr Gabrielle Storey and comedian Cariad Lloyd to learn all about Empress Matilda and the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy. A granddaughter of William the Conqueror, Matilda was born into England’s new Norman royal family. As a young girl she was used as a dynastic pawn by her father and sent to Germany to marry the Holy Roman Emperor. Here she was crowned empress and trained to rule. When her younger brother died, followed by her husband, Matilda returned to England to take her place as her father’s heir. But after her father’s death she was beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen, and so began the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy. Although Matilda ultimately lost, her son, Henry, was made Stephen’s heir, and he went on to rule with support and advice from his royal mother. So who was the real winner? This episode traces Matilda’s dramatic life from daughter of a king to empress of Germany to queen-in-waiting of England. Along the way, we ask whether medieval sexism prevented her from taking the throne, and look at the ways a woman could rule in twelfth-century Europe. If you’re a fan of fearsome queens, violent family feuds and medieval royal drama, you’ll love our episode on Empress Matilda. If you want more medieval queens with Dr Gabrielle Storey, check out our episode on Eleanor of Aquitaine. For more from Cariad Lloyd, listen to our episodes on Agrippina the Younger, Mary Wollstonecraft, and the Arts and Crafts Movement. And for more English royal feuds, there’s our episode on the Causes of the British Civil Wars. You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Clara Chamberlain Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Jenner?

  This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Cheers to fall savings at Whole Foods Market, home of higher ingredient standards. This Halloween, share chocolates and candies made without that spooky high fructose corn syrup. Throwing a party? Make it easy with a berry chantilly cake. Ready to cook pizza? No antibiotics ever chicken wings. And sushi made fresh daily. Fall gatherings never tasted better. Save through November 3rd at Whole Foods Market.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Sometimes we all need an extra help in hand, especially with the tricky business problem you've been putting off. Claude is an AI for just that. It's the collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you. And Claude isn't just for quick questions. Hand it a whole task like turning a folder of scattered notes into a report, and it does the work and hands back something finished that you can open and edit. Claude can now draft a doc or deck right in front of you. And Claude Design now lives right inside Claude. Describe the website or prototype you're picturing, attach your design system, and it comes back in your own design language, ready to edit right on the canvas. It works with your files and the tools you already use, like Gmail and Slack.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  And whether you're debugging code at midnight, building a financial model, or strategising your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai/solve. That's claude.ai/solve. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode. Claude.ai/solve.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

• 1:49Greg Jenner?

  Hello, Greg here. Just a reminder before we get going that episodes of Your Dead to Me are released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else, first on BBC Sounds.

• 2:05Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster, and today we are moseying back to medieval England and throwing fists in the fiercest of family feuds, as we learn all about Empress Matilda and the Anarchy. And joining our royal court are two very special guests. In history corner, she's a historian of monarchy and sexuality, specialising in medieval history. She's the author of Berengaria of Navarre, Queen of England and Lord of Lomond, and you'll remember her from our episode on Eleanor of Accutane, it's Dr Gabrielle Story. Welcome back Gabby.

• 2:39Speaker 04

  Great, thanks for having me back.

• 2:40Greg Jenner?

  And in comedy corner, she's a multi-talented comedian, actor, writer, you'll know her from the TV panel show, she's an author, her new children's book, Where Does She Go? Is a lovely analysis of grief for kids, it's beautiful. Plus, she has a career as a Jane Austen improv whiz in the hilarious Ostentatious Improv Show. She's a busy woman, and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of You're Dead to Me, including Georgian Courtship and the Arts and Crafts Movement, it's the wonderful Cariad Lloyd. Welcome back Cariad.

• 3:04Speaker 05

  Ahoy there, sirrah. As they said, in medieval times, yes. Good morrow upon thee. Yes? Gabby's nodding like, yeah, yeah.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 3:16Speaker 05

  Absolutely, that was your classic English greeting.

• 3:19Speaker 04

  Well, we do need it in Anglo-French for this episode.

• 3:22Speaker 05

  Bonjour, sirrah. Ça va? C'est le morro bon.

• 3:28Speaker 04

  Bon.

• 3:29Greg Jenner?

  Wow, linguistics class as well.

• 3:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, she's a lot of things. Speaking French is one of them.

• 3:34Greg Jenner?

  Now Cariad, together we have done Agrippina the Younger of Rome.

• 3:38Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 3:39Greg Jenner?

  A sort of empress. We've done plenty of regency and Victorian, we've not done medieval together.

• 3:45Speaker 05

  We have not gone back to medieval times.

• 3:47Greg Jenner?

  And so when I say to you, Empress Matilda and the Anarchy, you think?

• 3:50Speaker 05

  Well, do you know what? As ever with me, I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda, which could be wrong, but I feel like I read it once in Peter Ackroyd's London. And I only remember two things from Peter Ackroyd's London. And I feel like she was a really popular queen. That's what I thought about Matilda. And that when she came out Westminster Abbey once, they were cheering her. And that the area of St Giles was a slum. I'm so sorry, Peter Ackroyd. It's a very large tome.

• 4:15Greg Jenner?

  It's a very big book, very heavy.

• 4:18Speaker 05

  I should remember more.

• 4:18Greg Jenner?

  Popular queen, interesting. We will address that later, I think.

• 4:22Speaker 05

  Okay, that's fine.

• 4:23Greg Jenner?

  That is not what I would.

• 4:24Speaker 05

  Oh, no. Well, take it with Pete Ackroyd, not me.

• 4:28Greg Jenner?

  Okay. Well, look, you know, it sounds like you're not, you know, totally clear on the Empress Matilda.

• 4:34Speaker 05

  No.

• 4:34Greg Jenner?

  Backstory. Okay, so that's kind of helpful for us because it means we can.

• 4:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't.

• 4:38Greg Jenner?

  Give you a fresh introduction.

• 4:38Speaker 05

  I don't know nothing, as they said in the 12th century.

• 4:42Greg Jenner?

  In French, of course.

• 4:44Speaker 05

  Just we know nothing.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  Je ne sais pas.

• 4:47Speaker 05

  Je ne sais pas nothing.

• 4:48Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 4:48Speaker 05

  Information technique.

• 4:50Greg Jenner?

  So, what do you know?

• 4:57Greg Jenner?

  Great, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, which is the So What Do You Know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for most of you, Matilda is most probably going to be the heroine from the Roald Dahl story, more so than medieval royal diva, I suspect. But you may have read Ken Follet's famous mega massive medieval novel, The Pillars of the Earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well. And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played Age of Empires 2: Expansion Pack, ooh, in which you can battle against Empress Matilda. But who was the real life Matilda? How did a family squabble turn into a full-blown civil war? And when can a hangover save your life? Let's find out. Right, Dr Gabby, when was Matilda born?

• 5:42Greg Jenner?

  You know, where are we in history? And are we talking royal baby?

• 5:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we're talking about England to start off with, though France will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions.

• 5:53Speaker 05

  They always do.

• 5:53Speaker 04

  Yep, yep. So we're going to have some cross-channel argy-bargy going on. But Matilda's born around February 1102. She is the daughter of Henry I, King of England, who was the youngest son of William the Conqueror, also known by another name that's not Radio 4 friendly, so we'll keep it at that for the moment. And her mother was Matilda of Scotland. So, and Matilda of Scotland is descendant of Alfred the Great, so this gives some legitimacy.

• 6:21Speaker 05

  She's like, she's royalty.

• 6:22Speaker 04

  She is.

• 6:23Speaker 05

  This is a lot of connection. Yeah, yeah.

• 6:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:26Greg Jenner?

  So grandad William the Conqueror.

• 6:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:28Greg Jenner?

  Dad is King, King Henry.

• 6:30Speaker 05

  Henry I.

• 6:30Greg Jenner?

  Henry I.

• 6:31Speaker 05

  Not even like. Henry the Fifth, guys. This is Henry the first, the first one to be like-

• 6:35Greg Jenner?

  They've just invented Henrys.

• 6:36Speaker 05

  They've just got into that, that um DVD series.

• 6:40Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 6:40Speaker 05

  She's in the OG series.

• 6:42Greg Jenner?

  She's the OG series, but they're still figuring it out. They haven't quite, yeah.

• 6:44Speaker 05

  And then her other granddad is Alfred the Great.

• 6:45Greg Jenner?

  No, no, going, go way, go way back. Descendant.

• 6:48Speaker 05

  Descended from that, I was gonna say. Wow.

• 6:49Greg Jenner?

  Her father was the youngest son of William the Conqueror.

• 6:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, what happened to the others?

• 6:53Greg Jenner?

  That's a good question. Do you want to have a little guess for us? What happened to the older brother?

• 6:56Speaker 05

  Did they die? They died hideously, poisoned?

• 7:00Greg Jenner?

  Interesting. You think suspicious death?

• 7:02Speaker 05

  Well, probably at this time, isn't it? The youngest son ends up there. I'm guessing suspicious.

• 7:07Speaker 04

  So Henry's older brother, William the Second, also known as William Rufus, William Redhead, does die in a suspicious hunting accident in the New Forest in 1100. So he is shot supposedly by accident by one of his servants, but-

• 7:26Speaker 05

  Oh, God, so sorry. I thought you were a deer.

• 7:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:29Speaker 05

  Because you have the red hair. It's very confusing.

• 7:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. But rather conveniently for Henry, who happens to be nearby, he then just races off to Winchester, supposedly to secure all the money because the treasury's at Winchester. But the fact he runs off so quickly does, you know, raise some suspicions as to whether he knew about it.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  Where are you going, Henry? Just gotta wash my hands. I mean, go to Winchester. Nothing with, there's all these arrows falling up your backside. Don't worry about it, don't worry about it.

• 7:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, so he does uh speed himself along and get crowned before William's even cold. So.

• 8:05Speaker 05

  Oh, Henry, Henri, Henri I.

• 8:07Greg Jenner?

  Henri I. So, so his older brother has taken an arrow to the back in suspicious circumstances.

• 8:12Speaker 04

  Yes, and their other brother, Richard, did also die in a hunting accident. So there is a little bit-

• 8:19Speaker 05

  Stop hunting.

• 8:20Greg Jenner?

  It's very dangerous. It's very dangerous.

• 8:22Speaker 05

  You guys, like, you shouldn't be doing that. That's not for you.

• 8:25Greg Jenner?

  Uh, yes. So, uh, so Gabby, Matilda is born a royal. When we had our little sort of pre-chat, you said there's no such thing as a princess in this era, which I found quite interesting. I didn't know that.

• 8:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:35Speaker 05

  But prince existed?

• 8:37Speaker 04

  Kind of the next century or so along. So I won't go too much into Welsh history because that's kind of where we get principality and princes coming and on.

• 8:44Speaker 05

  Please always go into Welsh history. Never hold back because we have been forgotten about for hundreds of years.

• 8:51Greg Jenner?

  So, so what we, our instinct to call her a princess is sort of, sort of right, but it's not what they'd call her at the time.

• 8:56Speaker 05

  They would just say she was the king's daughter.

• 8:58Speaker 04

  Daughter, yeah, yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 9:00Speaker 04

  And referred to her as a lady and so forth.

• 9:02Speaker 05

  Just a lady of the court, basically. Interesting.

• 9:04Greg Jenner?

  So what's her childhood like? What, you know, education and, and you know?

• 9:08Speaker 05

  If she had a diary, it wouldn't be the princess diaries.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  No, unfortunately not.

• 9:13Speaker 05

  Lady of the court's diaries, which has not the same ring about it.

• 9:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't think Anne Hathaway's gonna line up to play her at the moment, unfortunately. We'll have to think of someone else, but we don't know loads unfortunately about her upbringing. So royal girls are often raised in nunnaries and sometimes they're at court with their mothers, if they're at court with their mothers and they're travelling around, you know, we know that she goes to Exeter. She's in Norwich, Windsor, Canterbury. So she does move round of the court quite a bit. Now, her mum, Matilda of Scotland, she is very cultured, she's very pious. So she wants to pass that on to her daughter. But Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power. So we can see her with a good amount of political authority, again, something Junie Matilda's gonna pick up on.

• 9:59Speaker 04

  And she also gets involved in mediating between disputes between the king and his archbishops. So Archbishop of Canterbury, again popping up. As soon as I thought about the Archbishop of Canterbury, I was thinking of Matilda's son, Henry the Second, and Thomas Becket, who also get into disputes.

• 10:16Greg Jenner?

  Spoiler alert, yeah.

• 10:19Speaker 04

  So, yeah.

• 10:20Greg Jenner?

  And we say travel about, you know, you mentioned Exeter and it's sort of sunny climes, you know, sweltering Exeter, gorgeous tropics of South West England. But she went considerably further at a young age. Do you want to guess where, Cariad?

• 10:31Speaker 05

  France.

• 10:32Greg Jenner?

  Further than France?

• 10:33Speaker 05

  Oh, maybe, Germany.

• 10:35Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 05

  Oh!

• 10:36Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 05

  All the way to Germany.

• 10:37Greg Jenner?

  All the way to Germany.

• 10:38Speaker 05

  So she went to the school exchange for the Germany because the French one was full.

• 10:41Greg Jenner?

  It wasn't the school exchange programme, Cariad.

• 10:44Speaker 05

  Oh, it was to meet a man to marry.

• 10:46Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 05

  It was marriage exchange.

• 10:48Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 10:48Speaker 05

  You know what, Greg? They look down on that in schools these days. They more encourage you to see the sights, eat some food, not pick up a future husband.

• 10:56Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, often on this show, I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage klaxon. It's rare I have to do it.

• 11:03Speaker 05

  I wonder what that was. I'm glad you brought it up.

• 11:04Greg Jenner?

  Yes, no, it's, it's very big. Um, how old are we talking here, Gabby?

• 11:07Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, how old?

• 11:08Speaker 04

  Eight.

• 11:09Speaker 05

  Oh, now, look, I've heard some low numbers before on this programme, but that is low. Medieval, what is wrong with you?

• 11:18Speaker 04

  Officially engaged at the age of eight.

• 11:20Greg Jenner?

  Oh, that's fine, that's fine then, yeah, no.

• 11:23Speaker 04

  I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years because even then they realise that that's quite young to be being married.

• 11:30Speaker 05

  This is gonna happen, we're just making sure everyone, we've signed the contracts.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:34Speaker 05

  You can see what you're buying, but they're not gonna actually get married for a while.

• 11:38Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 11:38Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm making it sound like it's reasonable.

• 11:41Greg Jenner?

  But she does go out there at eight, right?

• 11:42Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 11:43Greg Jenner?

  To Germany, so, so her father is a arranger, her father is Henry.

• 11:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:47Greg Jenner?

  And she's betrothed to who?

• 11:48Speaker 04

  Henry.

• 11:48Greg Jenner?

  Oh, another one.

• 11:50Speaker 05

  Can't call him Heinrich or something, like, he's also Henry the fifth.

• 11:55Greg Jenner?

  Heinrich, yeah.

• 11:56Speaker 05

  Oh, Heinrich the fifth?

• 11:57Speaker 04

  Yep, Heinrich.

• 11:58Greg Jenner?

  And he is what?

• 11:59Speaker 04

  And he is king of the Romans, so Germany at this time, also you go by the title of king of the Romans, that can be king of Germany, king of the Romans. Because most of the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor as well, which is what happens to Henry. And Matilda is also crowned even before she's married, she's crowned queen of the Romans at Meins on the 25th of July, 11/10, so.

• 12:25Speaker 05

  They give her a party.

• 12:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, so she's, yeah, she gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married, so that's not a bad deal for an eight-year-old.

• 12:34Speaker 05

  Well, it is.

• 12:36Speaker 05

  Terrible deal, but they do give her a party and look, everyone wants a Colin the Caterpillar cake, other cakes are available. But it's still not ideal if she's gonna have to marry Das Henry Funf.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  Who is 16 years older than her.

• 12:50Speaker 05

  Oh, he's 16, I thought you were saying 16, no, he's 16 years older than her, oh, okay.

• 12:54Greg Jenner?

  So he's what, 24? 24. She's eight, so eight years old, already the queen of the country, so she started young on the old power front, and obviously she can, she'd have to learn German, right?

• 13:05Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah, yeah. And Latin is usually the language used by the courts as well, so that will put her in good stead. I mean, yes, she does become queen very young, but she gets so much experience while she's in Germany. She's trained to rule from a young age, which puts her in good stead for the future.

• 13:20Speaker 05

  Okay, okay.

• 13:21Speaker 04

  So, yeah, problematic.

• 13:23Speaker 05

  She's on an internship.

• 13:25Speaker 04

  Yes, very problematic in terms of modern eyes, but for the time period, she's doing exactly what she was meant to be doing.

• 13:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  And, you know, we do see her being very active as we get on to, and actually, it's quite good because it shows that she does have power. She's not just being pushed to one side.

• 13:41Speaker 05

  Right, yeah. They trust her, basically, to, they're not being like, we can just use this one as a puppet. They're like, oh no, this one should be ruling.

• 13:49Greg Jenner?

  Well, I mean, the interesting, the sort of next moment, Henry V leaves for Italy because he wants to be crowned the Holy Roman Emperor. So, King of the Germans is like, decent.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  It's good.

• 13:59Greg Jenner?

  Holy Roman Emperor is the one up.

• 14:01Speaker 05

  Your powers of God on you.

• 14:02Greg Jenner?

  He goes off to Italy. He says to the Pope, I'd like to be Holy Roman Emperor.

• 14:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 14:07Greg Jenner?

  Pope says no. What do you think he does?

• 14:09Speaker 05

  Kills the Pope.

• 14:10Greg Jenner?

  He's not quite that bad.

• 14:12Speaker 05

  I'm thinking Game of Thrones here, slices his head off.

• 14:14Greg Jenner?

  He kidnaps the Pope.

• 14:15Speaker 05

  Kidnaps the Pope.

• 14:16Greg Jenner?

  Yeah. What happens here, Gabby? Where does the?

• 14:19Speaker 04

  The Pope is held hostage in Rome. He's not transported anywhere.

• 14:23Speaker 05

  You don't want to be carrying that around with you to Germany. That is a nightmare.

• 14:27Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I mean, the assurance costs on the, you know.

• 14:29Speaker 05

  Just going to want his own incense, like, he's going to have to get his robes dry cleaned in the way. So just kind of capture him in Rome.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, and this is Henry's first Italian expedition, so there's expedition two, which we'll get on to in the shop.

• 14:41Speaker 05

  Okay, this is awkward. They don't, they're not going to want him back after this.

• 14:44Speaker 04

  No, but he is crowned Holy Roman Emperor, but obviously this is problematic because the Pope's done it under force. You know, it's not quite a legitimate coronation. If you've kind of got the knife in the back being like, I want to be Holy Roman Emperor.

• 14:58Speaker 05

  And what's, do we know the name of the Pope? Because they normally have quite good names. What place is it?

• 15:01Speaker 04

  Pascal the Second.

• 15:02Speaker 05

  Great, absolutely brilliant.

• 15:03Greg Jenner?

  Quite a nice Pope name. We haven't had a Pascal in a while, have we?

• 15:07Speaker 05

  Well, you need to cover Pascal the First, quite clearly. That's got the seconds popped up.

• 15:12Speaker 04

  So Henry and Matilda then get married. So this is all taking place in 1111. Henry and Matilda are married in 1114, just before she turns 12.

• 15:22Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 15:23Greg Jenner?

  They can't even wait till she's 12.

• 15:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the problematic marriage klaxon can still.

• 15:28Speaker 05

  Continue, yeah. Well, if you engage at eight, it's a long time before that klaxon is going to stop ringing.

• 15:33Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I need new batteries for the klaxon.

• 15:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're gonna. Gonna need a bigger klaxon.

• 15:38Speaker 04

  Four years, oh no, sorry, six years almost of klaxon-ing is quite a lot.

• 15:41Speaker 05

  So she's 12, lovely, great.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, so in 1116, we have expedition number two.

• 15:47Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 15:47Speaker 04

  Where.

• 15:48Speaker 05

  Guys, he's back. Everyone, keep your eyes on the Pope, take the locks, change the keys, keep an eye.

• 15:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, so Henry's back in order to claim the land of Matilda of Tuscany.

• 15:59Greg Jenner?

  Another Matilda.

• 15:59Speaker 04

  Another Matilda.

• 16:01Greg Jenner?

  Okay, our third Matilda so far.

• 16:02Speaker 04

  So she has supposedly arranged for her lands to be passed to Henry, so he comes back and claimed them. But Matilda is finally crowned Holy Roman Empress, Imperatrix Romanorum in 1117, but also again, not by the Pope, so.

• 16:17Speaker 05

  Oh, I see, I see, I see. So does her husband crown her?

• 16:22Speaker 04

  No, so Henry's crowned for the second time, Matilda's crowned for the first time. So they're crowned not by the Pope, by the Archbishop of Braga. And therefore this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either. But Matilda takes this on fully and is like, well, no, I'm Empress now, that's going to be my title, that's what I'm gonna use.

• 16:40Speaker 05

  But she's like 12 at this point, like 14 or something?

• 16:42Speaker 04

  Uh.

• 16:43Greg Jenner?

  She's probably like 15, I think at this point.

• 16:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, 15.

• 16:47Greg Jenner?

  And, because the next year, she's in charge, right? Because Henry's off.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, Henry abruptly has to go back to Germany to settle matters in 1118. And he leaves Matilda in charge of Italy, which, again, quite a lot for a 16-year-old, but I mean, I think a lot of 16-year-olds might like being in Italy for a year.

• 17:04Speaker 05

  I can't believe he'll leave him in charge of Italy. This is so unfair.

• 17:09Speaker 04

  But it does show how much Henry kind of trusts her capabilities. He does think at 16

• 17:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  That she can do this.

• 17:17Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 17:18Greg Jenner?

  In some ways horrific child marriage, in other ways supportive husbands.

• 17:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, I still think that klaxon's going.

• 17:26Greg Jenner?

  I'm still honking klaxon all the way through this episode.

• 17:28Speaker 05

  Still going.

• 17:29Greg Jenner?

  So we've met three Matilda so far. Carry on, just as a little, a little fun game. How many Matildas will we meet by the end of the episode?

• 17:35Speaker 05

  Oh, seven?

• 17:36Greg Jenner?

  Not seven.

• 17:37Speaker 05

  Okay, five.

• 17:38Greg Jenner?

  It is five.

• 17:38Speaker 05

  Five, great.

• 17:39Greg Jenner?

  Five. And how many Henrys?

• 17:41Speaker 05

  Well, I don't know. How far are we going up to? I know there's eight. It's supposed to be out now.

• 17:45Greg Jenner?

  We're not going that far.

• 17:46Speaker 05

  It hasn't been a Henry nine, has it?

• 17:48Greg Jenner?

  Well, Henry the eighth was Henry the ninth, but we won't go into that.

• 17:50Speaker 05

  What?

• 17:50Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, because that's Henry the young kick. Never mind, we'll move on, that's fine. Three Henrys. You can expect three Henrys.

• 17:56Speaker 05

  Three Henrys.

• 17:56Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so five Matildas and three.

• 17:58Speaker 05

  You can expect three Henrys.

• 18:00Greg Jenner?

  Yes. So Gabby, we've got Empress Matilda. She's suddenly demoted in 1125.

• 18:04Speaker 05

  Oh, what? What happened to her?

• 18:06Greg Jenner?

  You know, she's been ruling Italy, she's the Empress, and then suddenly, nope.

• 18:09Speaker 04

  Nope, because Henry V dies. Heinrich passes away.

• 18:13Speaker 05

  Does Henry Fumpf is dead.

• 18:16Greg Jenner?

  Caput.

• 18:17Speaker 04

  He goes kaput.

• 18:19Speaker 05

  Ah, nine, das ist ein Schade. Heinrich V, oh no. So he just dies, but she's left unprotected?

• 18:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, because she's 23, she's a widow, they have no children.

• 18:31Speaker 05

  They've got no kids, oh no.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  Though, interestingly, she's not blamed for the lack of no kids.

• 18:36Speaker 05

  Well, she's barely had a bloody moment to do it, guys. It's never a chance.

• 18:39Speaker 04

  Yep, but usually the blame is ascribed to the woman, but this case, because obviously Henry has kidnapped a pope. And, you know, he's been quite sinful, so the blame's put.

• 18:49Greg Jenner?

  Literally in a different country half the time. He was in Germany, she was in Italy. It's very hard to do long, you can't, you know, long distance.

• 18:55Speaker 05

  Well, you can't do long distance intercourse, no.

• 18:57Greg Jenner?

  No.

• 18:59Speaker 05

  Courtship, but yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, so they're looking forward to the fact that Matilda, what is she gonna do now? You know, 23, so she's not allowed to rule in Germany.

• 19:08Speaker 05

  So the Germans are like, get out of here, you're nothing to us.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Pretty much. She could marry a German prince, enter a nunnery, or go back to England.

• 19:17Speaker 05

  Three options. Oh.

• 19:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 05

  Enter a nunnery. Eh eh, no thanks. I'm okay.

• 19:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, but she decides to go back to England in 1126, and she does not go back alone. She decides to take back some of the jewels with her. So she takes two of Henry's crowns.

• 19:36Speaker 04

  Two of Henry's imperial crowns with her.

• 19:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm taking these as well. I don't care if you don't like me.

• 19:42Greg Jenner?

  I mean, that feels like a theft really, because basically she's been asked to leave politely. She says, I'm having this.

• 19:49Speaker 05

  She's like, all his family, like, we never liked to anyway. She's like, well, I'm taking the crowns.

• 19:54Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 19:55Speaker 05

  I'm gonna come back for Tuscany one day as well.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  She does also take the hand of St James the Apostle as a relic.

• 20:01Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, because you always, you always need a dead saint's hand, just in case.

• 20:04Speaker 04

  Just protection along the way.

• 20:06Greg Jenner?

  Fabulous. All right. There's another reason that she's needed back home. Her dad, King Henry.

• 20:10Speaker 05

  King Henry the Second.

• 20:11Greg Jenner?

  He's lost his heir. First, he's lost his heir. His son, so Matilda's brother, William, has died.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  By an arrow, by a hunting incident?

• 20:19Greg Jenner?

  No. Have you ever heard of the White Ship disaster?

• 20:22Speaker 05

  No.

• 20:22Greg Jenner?

  I mean, it's a kind of huge dynastic catastrophe, Gabby. Can you sort of talk us through it? It's 1120, right?

• 20:28Speaker 04

  Yes, 1120, yep. So November 1120, the English royal court's been in France because they possess Normandy at this point. So you've had the Dukes of Normandy become the kings of England. So they've got control over both of those areas. Now, Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships. William on the White Ship, which was captained by Thomas Fitzstephen, and his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conqueror over in the first place.

• 20:52Greg Jenner?

  Oh, so it's a nepo hire.

• 20:55Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, dad did it, so it's my job to do it.

• 20:57Speaker 05

  I'm sure I can do it. I like, my dad knew how to do this.

• 21:00Speaker 04

  Now, as is typical, dad sets off first, but William and the nobles decide to have a bit of a party before they get on the ship. And Fitzstephen also claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking, that he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship. So the sailors leave at night, not always advisable in the first place, is it? And go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks. So, yes, the rock rips the hull, ship sinks and all but one of the three hundred passengers um die, which is a butcher from Rouen.

• 21:41Speaker 05

  So we only have one butcher's word. Let me tell you, it was not me, they were all so drunk. So you didn't drink. No, no, no, no, no, no, I did not, I was not the one who bought the booze.

• 21:53Greg Jenner?

  So we've, we've lost the heir to the throne.

• 21:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 21:55Greg Jenner?

  William, her brother who's drowned, leaves behind a widow and her name is?

• 21:59Speaker 05

  Matilda.

• 22:00Greg Jenner?

  Of course. Yeah, so that's Matilda number four. So Matilda returning to England, kind of handy because suddenly here's an heir.

• 22:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:07Greg Jenner?

  But a woman, so.

• 22:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, how do they feel about that?

• 22:09Greg Jenner?

  You know.

• 22:10Speaker 04

  So not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point.

• 22:14Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 22:14Speaker 04

  But they've not had it in England before, certainly not in the Kingdom of England. Henry decides to get married again, just in case.

• 22:21Speaker 05

  Just in case, yeah.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, just in case he can get another.

• 22:25Speaker 05

  She's just a girl, so I need to get on some other kids as soon as possible because, God, I can't.

• 22:30Greg Jenner?

  Even a baby would be better than this.

• 22:32Speaker 05

  A baby boy, at least six months old, we could get him engaged.

• 22:36Speaker 04

  Yeah. Henry the first, Henry the eighth, still looking for that ultimate, you know, backup plan and a boy.

• 22:42Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  So Henry gets married to Adelida of Levon in eleven twenty one, but he does make plans. So he does ask the bishops and magnates of England to swear oaths three times to acknowledge Matilda as queen if he dies. But Anglo-Normans, kind of a new dynasty, not very secure.

• 23:01Speaker 05

  Right.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  So it's a bit of a precarious matter whether they are going to accept Matilda.

• 23:07Greg Jenner?

  So they, so three oaths are sworn in eleven twenty eight, eleven thirty one, eleven twenty seven. So between four years, three oaths. If you were Matilda, Cariad, how would you feel about being demoted from Imperatrix Romanorum to backup plan insurance policy number four?

• 23:21Speaker 05

  Well, look, I would be cool with it because I would think this sounds easier than trying to rule Germany and Italy and control a pope. But I'm a practical lady. I imagined maybe she felt it was a step down from the Holy Roman Empress of Europe to just being Queen of England.

• 23:36Greg Jenner?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:37Speaker 05

  Probably wasn't that exciting at that point.

• 23:38Greg Jenner?

  Well, I mean, Henry's not done with the marrying yet, is he?

• 23:42Speaker 05

  Of course, well, she's only young, right?

• 23:44Greg Jenner?

  She's twenty four.

• 23:45Speaker 05

  Twenty four, but four and twenty, as Jane Ralston would say. She's almost a spinster, but not quite.

• 23:51Greg Jenner?

  So he marries her off again.

• 23:52Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 23:53Greg Jenner?

  Again, inappropriate aged husband.

• 23:55Speaker 05

  Oh, what is he, like eighty or something?

• 23:57Greg Jenner?

  Other way round.

• 23:58Speaker 05

  Oh, no, he's like seven.

• 24:00Greg Jenner?

  He's a teenager, so she's the cougar this time. She's, he's, how old's the new hubby?

• 24:05Speaker 04

  So Geoffrey's only fifteen when he gets married to Matilda.

• 24:09Greg Jenner?

  And the aged gap there is what?

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Eleven years. So, you know, you're getting into another problematic marriage factor there.

• 24:16Greg Jenner?

  It's a whole other battery. I'm gonna have to install another one. Sorry. She's not impressed, right?

• 24:20Speaker 04

  No, she's not, because again.

• 24:21Speaker 05

  Who's Geoffrey? Not of Malmouth. That's the end Geoffrey I know, guys.

• 24:24Greg Jenner?

  That's a good medieval name.

• 24:25Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 24:26Greg Jenner?

  Now, this is Geoffrey Plantagenet, right?

• 24:28Speaker 05

  Oh, Plantagenet. So I know them.

• 24:30Speaker 04

  So he is Count of Anjou. So Anjou's a central county in France at this point. And that's where we get the term Angevin from. Angevin, King of England, which.

• 24:39Speaker 05

  Not Ange new, as in.

• 24:40Greg Jenner?

  Not Ange new, no.

• 24:41Speaker 05

  I was like, he wasn't Ange new, right, guys?

• 24:45Speaker 04

  Not that sophisticated. But yeah, Matilda's not happy. He's socially inferior because he's only a count. Remember, she's just been married to the Holy Roman Emperor. So she's got a teenager and a count. It's quite a big step down.

• 24:58Speaker 05

  Bit embarrassing.

• 24:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. But Geoffrey's made a knight very quickly to try and elevate his prestige in the eyes of Matilda. And when his father leaves to marry the Queen of Jerusalem, he's then made count.

• 25:10Speaker 05

  And does he just come over to England and just is living with her, like?

• 25:14Speaker 04

  No, she goes over to.

• 25:16Speaker 05

  She has to go to Anjou. I see. So she has to go and live there.

• 25:19Greg Jenner?

  So she's on her fourth language by now, third language?

• 25:22Speaker 04

  We would have had Latin, French, German.

• 25:25Greg Jenner?

  Italian.

• 25:26Speaker 04

  Probably a bit of Italian, maybe a smattering of English. But Latin's the language of the court. So English is the language of the common people.

• 25:33Greg Jenner?

  And English at this time is what we'd call old English. So it's not, it's not modern English. It's, you know.

• 25:38Speaker 05

  No, she's, she's eating with a knifeford.

• 25:40Greg Jenner?

  Yes, a knifeford, yeah. Okay, so poor Matilda so far has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter, her own teenage husband. And she has a baby and that's healthy. Second child, but it's very dangerous.

• 25:52Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 25:52Greg Jenner?

  She nearly dies.

• 25:54Speaker 04

  Yes, she does think she's going to die. She makes all her funeral arrangements and everything and, you know, sorts out a will effectively and her bequest because, yeah, she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her. But. Son number one is another Henry.

• 26:09Speaker 05

  Sure, why not? It ain't broke, don't fix it. Give me the second.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  Yep, son number two, the problematic one, is Geoffrey.

• 26:17Speaker 05

  Oh, this is Geoffrey.

• 26:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, and they go on to have a third son, William, as well. So that's it. Three beautiful, healthy boys. But yeah, pregnancy number two is problematic.

• 26:27Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so there we go. So dad so far has been ruling her love life. He's married her off twice. But crucially, in 1135, meddling dad, he passes away in 1135. The King of England is dead, and all those oaths have been sworn. Three oaths, a triple lock.

• 26:41Speaker 05

  And you know how reliable bishops are in history. If they agree something, those bishops never let you down.

• 26:48Greg Jenner?

  So the next ruler of England, Carrie Anne, is?

• 26:51Speaker 05

  Well, I imagine they're trying to stop it being Matilda.

• 26:53Greg Jenner?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 05

  They're causing a council. Do they want it to go to her son? Are they trying to do it that way?

• 26:58Greg Jenner?

  I mean, that would, that would make more sense, but no.

• 27:00Speaker 05

  They just bring in some random. They always bring in some random. Who is it?

• 27:05Greg Jenner?

  Do you want to talk us through it, Debbie?

• 27:06Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah. So Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin, Stephen.

• 27:11Speaker 05

  Oh, Stephen.

• 27:13Speaker 04

  Steve, shall we call him Steve?

• 27:14Speaker 05

  Stephen, I've heard of Stephen.

• 27:16Speaker 04

  Stephen of Lourdes. He is crowned on the 22nd of December. So Henry dies on the 1st of December. Stephen is crowned on the 22nd. So literally.

• 27:25Greg Jenner?

  That is a quick party arrangement.

• 27:27Speaker 05

  It's even like the same age as her. You know, they have a cousin a similar age and your families are like, well, Stephen got five A stars in his GCSEs, Matilda. Stephen's going to Oxford. Like, Stephen's actually become King of England.

• 27:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:39Speaker 05

  Poor Matilda.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  I mean, it does help, talking of meddling bishops, Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester, which is a big.

• 27:46Greg Jenner?

  Very handy.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  But Matilda, when we're talking about pregnancies, she has concerns with this third pregnancy and perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk.

• 27:56Speaker 05

  Is she pregnant when that happens, when her dad dies?

• 27:58Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 27:59Speaker 05

  Oh my, this poor woman. This is a lot to deal with.

• 28:02Speaker 04

  And she's also, to be fair, she's battling with her father at this point. So when Henry dies, they're not on good terms.

• 28:09Speaker 05

  Complex trauma in the relationship and a grief happens. Yes, this is a lot.

• 28:14Speaker 04

  Stress.

• 28:14Speaker 05

  We've all been there, then your cousin takes the. You know, the royal throne.

• 28:18Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 28:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're less stuck in Normandy.

• 28:20Greg Jenner?

  That's it. So a cousin swooping in. So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job.

• 28:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:26Greg Jenner?

  While she's on maternity leave.

• 28:27Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 28:27Greg Jenner?

  Absolute.

• 28:28Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 28:29Greg Jenner?

  Twenty first century.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:30Greg Jenner?

  Something's never changed, right?

• 28:31Speaker 05

  Oh, something's never changed.

• 28:33Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 28:33Speaker 05

  Poor Matilda.

• 28:34Greg Jenner?

  Poor Matilda. So, okay, let's hear about Stevie B, the throne thief. That's his hip hop name.

• 28:40Greg Jenner?

  King Stephen, Stephen of Bois.

• 28:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:42Greg Jenner?

  Who is he?

• 28:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 04

  So he's about 10 years older than Matilda.

• 28:47Speaker 05

  Oh, even worse. Yeah, yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 04

  Depending if we go over the 1092 birthday. He is the third son of King Henry the First's sister, Adela. So there is a.

• 28:56Speaker 05

  Adela, okay.

• 28:57Speaker 04

  The family relationship there. He's a favourite of Henry the First. He grows up in the English court because his mum sent him there thinking it'd be more, you know, sophisticated than their land. So he's well known by the nobles, which puts him in good stead when he does nip, nip across the channel.

• 29:12Speaker 05

  He's been hanging out with the lads in the men's clubs. Yeah, I get you. I get you.

• 29:16Greg Jenner?

  And he's married to?

• 29:17Speaker 05

  Matilda.

• 29:18Greg Jenner?

  Yes, he is.

• 29:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, heiress to the county of Boulogne, so.

• 29:22Speaker 05

  Oh, my god.

• 29:23Greg Jenner?

  That's our fifth Matilda, our final Matilda.

• 29:25Speaker 05

  Our fifth and final Matilda.

• 29:27Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so the obvious question I have to ask you, Carrie, is how come Stephen of Bois is still alive when the white ship went down?

• 29:35Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 29:35Greg Jenner?

  Why wasn't he on that ship?

• 29:36Speaker 05

  Was he on the other ship?

• 29:37Greg Jenner?

  He was not on the other ship.

• 29:39Speaker 05

  Wait, what? Is he a butcher from Rouen? And he like trained really hard and became King Stephen?

• 29:44Greg Jenner?

  No. Do you remember we said that they were having a very sort of boozy party?

• 29:47Speaker 05

  Oh, did he pass out and didn't get on the ship?

• 29:49Greg Jenner?

  He got so drunk.

• 29:51Speaker 05

  He didn't get on the ship?

• 29:52Greg Jenner?

  He didn't get on the ship because he had debilitating diarrhoea.

• 29:58Speaker 05

  Debilitating ends.

• 29:59Greg Jenner?

  He had debilitating diarrhoea, a brutal hangover, didn't get on the ship.

• 30:03Speaker 05

  He didn't get on the white ship because he had the.

• 30:05Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it's like Final Destination. You know those sort of Final Destination movies where someone doesn't get on the plane and it crashes and they're like, huh. Uh, yeah, so he was saved. We've had people in the past who like shat themselves to death, but he was saved by his diarrhoea.

• 30:17Speaker 05

  So all the other male possible heirs were on that ship apart from Stephen?

• 30:21Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 30:22Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 05

  That is bold, isn't it?

• 30:23Greg Jenner?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:24Speaker 05

  You don't want to bring that up at a dinner party though, do you? Like.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  No, being like, don't give me too much, Beano, because.

• 30:29Speaker 05

  But also like, Stephen, how comes? Because your brother, all these people. Yeah, I am. No, I was, I was there. Why did you get the ship? Well, um.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  It was too crowded, too busy. I just, I wouldn't have fitted it on.

• 30:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was a busy day at the harbour. I, I couldn't find it. So, wow.

• 30:46Greg Jenner?

  So there we go. So Stephen is the king. Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth, thankfully.

• 30:51Speaker 05

  To William, yeah.

• 30:52Greg Jenner?

  And, and now she looks across the channel and goes, hang on a second, that's my throne.

• 30:56Speaker 05

  That's mine. Should have been me. Yeah, okay.

• 30:58Greg Jenner?

  So what does she do next?

• 31:00Speaker 05

  She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne.

• 31:05Speaker 05

  I know. She doesn't need any jewels. She's already got her own crown jewels.

• 31:09Greg Jenner?

  That's right. She's, she's brought her own.

• 31:10Speaker 05

  She's brought a German, German hat. Get out my throne, Stephen.

• 31:14Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I, I think it's time now for the anarchy, which, uh, I mean, doesn't mean that you can start throwing chairs around the studio.

• 31:19Speaker 05

  So this is when she forms a heavy metal band?

• 31:21Greg Jenner?

  That's right. That's it. Yes. She plays rhythm guitar.

• 31:23Speaker 04

  Matilda and the Anarchy. Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 05

  That's a great name for a band.

• 31:27Greg Jenner?

  It's a great name for a band, isn't it? It's really good. Yeah. They, they do weddings, vomit. I mean, it's, it's what you want. We are now into the anarchy, which is not a medieval phrase.

• 31:35Speaker 04

  Victorians, uh, coined it as the anarchy.

• 31:38Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 31:38Speaker 04

  Um, because it's, you know, it's that idea that society completely fell apart. And there are bits of society that are absolutely wrecked by war during this period, but not all of it.

• 31:49Greg Jenner?

  So would we call this a civil war?

• 31:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. I think 12th century civil war. The lesser known of the civil wars, to be honest. Perhaps.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Cheers to fall savings at Whole Foods Market, home of higher ingredient standards. This Halloween, share chocolates and candies made without that spooky high fructose corn syrup. Throwing a party? Make it easy with a berry chantilly cake. Ready to cook pizza? No antibiotics ever chicken wings and sushi made fresh daily. Fall gatherings never tasted better. Save through November 3rd at Whole Foods Market.

• 32:26Speaker 06

  Sometimes we all need an extra helping hand, especially with a tricky business problem you've been putting off. Claude is the AI for just that. It's the collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you. And Claude isn't just for quick questions. Hand it a whole task like turning a folder of scattered notes into a rep. Port and it does the work and hands back something finished that you can open and edit. Claude can now draft a doc or deck right in front of you and Claude design now lives right inside Claude. Describe the website or prototype you're picturing, attach your design system and it comes back in your own design language, ready to edit right on the canvas. It works with your files and the tools you already use like Gmail and Slack.

• 33:11Speaker 06

  And whether you're debugging code at midnight, building a financial model or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter for problems worth solving. Get started with Claude at claude.ai/solve. That's claude.ai/solve. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode. claude.ai/solve.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm Nile Rodgers, producer, songwriter, guitarist and co-founder of the group Sheik. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak or anything in between. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel. That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life.

• 34:16Speaker 07

  Regardless of how everyone else buys into this, I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 34:25Greg Jenner?

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience. Whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 34:43Speaker 04

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip.

• 34:47Speaker 06

  It's Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:58Speaker 04

  But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy. They focused on taking that first, think that's the way forward. But as we say, we get to around 11.38, 11.39, she's like, hang on, now I need to focus on taking England.

• 35:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 04

  Several of the English barons, including her half brother, Robert Ogloster, who comes in very handy, renounced her host, Stephen. Matilda's uncle, David, the King of Scotland, also caused this problem up in the north. 11.39, she does apply for the Pope to try and support her claim, but he's not interested. He doesn't reply to her letters.

• 35:30Greg Jenner?

  How do you apply to the Pope?

• 35:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know.

• 35:31Greg Jenner?

  You just fill in a form?

• 35:32Speaker 05

  It really sounded like she applied for a job.

• 35:35Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 35:35Speaker 04

  Yep, but no luck there. But she decides to sail for England anyway in September 11.39. Unfortunately, her stepmother, Adelisa, who's at Arundel, says, oh, come here, I'll support you.

• 35:48Greg Jenner?

  Arundel's a very lovely town, very, very nice day out.

• 35:50Speaker 05

  Got a great castle.

• 35:51Greg Jenner?

  Lovely castle, lovely antique shops, good cafes.

• 35:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, I've been to the castle, so.

• 35:55Greg Jenner?

  So her ex-husband had kidnapped the Pope, so it's no surprise that the Pope is Holy Ghost to her.

• 36:00Speaker 05

  I don't know why she's applying to him, like.

• 36:01Greg Jenner?

  It's, it's a long shot, right?

• 36:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 36:03Greg Jenner?

  How old is Matilda at this point? Late 30s?

• 36:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, she's 37.

• 36:06Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, she's coming into her own. She, she knows what she wants. Okay.

• 36:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. And again, all that experience she had in Germany, she knows she can rule. So.

• 36:14Greg Jenner?

  Carry on. We've got Matilda who's made military inroads. She's got useful alliances. She's got family, Roberts. She's got a stepmom, her uncle.

• 36:21Speaker 05

  David, Adelisa, yeah.

• 36:21Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so the country's divided, civil war.

• 36:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 36:24Greg Jenner?

  What team would you have chosen? Team Matilda or team Stephen? And before you give me your answer, I'm just going to give you a little bit of etymological history here. Stephen means crown in ancient Greek, so that's quite a handy name for a king. But Matilda in old German means mighty in battle. So where are you siding? Who would you go for?

• 36:43Speaker 05

  Guys, this is a lot of pressure. I'm siding with Matilda because I've only really heard her story. I don't know much about Stephen other than he's a lad's lad. It's reminded me of Catherine of Aragon and Henry the Eighth because it's like they surely, everyone kind of knows Matilda, right?

• 36:57Greg Jenner?

  But she hasn't been in England for very long.

• 36:58Speaker 05

  She hasn't been in England for very long.

• 36:59Greg Jenner?

  She left at eight?

• 37:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, she's been over in Europe, hasn't she?

• 37:02Greg Jenner?

  And then she came back, but she was a bit foreign.

• 37:04Speaker 05

  So the English court probably is going with Stephen more than Matilda. But I'm with Matilda.

• 37:08Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 37:08Speaker 05

  I'm with mighty in battle.

• 37:10Greg Jenner?

  Mighty in battle.

• 37:11Speaker 05

  Although, when I think about the ruler with the kings and queens on, I don't really remember Matilda being there repeatedly, so.

• 37:18Greg Jenner?

  No.

• 37:18Speaker 05

  I'm a bit worried that it's not gonna work out well for old Matildas.

• 37:22Greg Jenner?

  The horror of history song goes William, William, Henry, Stephen, Henry, Richard, John. There's no Matilda in there.

• 37:26Speaker 05

  There's no Matilda.

• 37:26Greg Jenner?

  Okay. Okay. Gabby, talk us through the war then. This brutal anarchy, this civil war. It's easy to think of this as a dynastic war. But a civil war means, you know, the ordinary population are caught up in the violence.

• 37:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, because they are vassals of the lords, the barons, who take sides in this and therefore get involved in the battles. And we do have quite a few battles. So, once Matilda's got to Arundel, enjoyed the castle, had a few scenic walks, makes her way over to Bristol, off to the west country, because her half-brother, Robert, Duke of Gloucester's there. So, he's got people on side for her. So they decide to start battling. This civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start. They hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne.

• 38:12Speaker 05

  You know what, barons always are interested in a bit of land. People should just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne.

• 38:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:18Greg Jenner?

  There are very few positive barons in history.

• 38:20Speaker 05

  There's not very few.

• 38:21Speaker 04

  This kind of carries on for about two years. Then, February 11, 41, have a breakthrough. Battle of Lincoln.

• 38:27Speaker 05

  Ooh.

• 38:27Speaker 04

  Stephen is captured.

• 38:29Speaker 05

  Ooh.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  So Matilda has Stephen in chains.

• 38:32Speaker 05

  Oh my goodness.

• 38:33Speaker 04

  And he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle.

• 38:35Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 38:36Greg Jenner?

  And she now is the queen, yes? Yes?

• 38:38Speaker 05

  No, the barons don't back it, right?

• 38:40Greg Jenner?

  Come on!

• 38:42Speaker 04

  Nope. Absolutely. She's not there yet. So, we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins.

• 38:55Speaker 05

  Great.

• 38:55Speaker 04

  Lady of the English stamped on the coins.

• 38:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:57Speaker 04

  Um, as like a precursor to becoming queen and she proceeds to London to be crowned, but the Londoners reject her.

• 39:03Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  They will not let her in.

• 39:06Greg Jenner?

  But Cariad told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular.

• 39:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, I've obviously remembered that completely incorrectly, that when, I'm sure I remember him saying that she was a, like, that Stephen was not as popular and the people cheered Matilda.

• 39:20Speaker 04

  Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife, is popular.

• 39:22Speaker 05

  Oh, maybe I'm looking at Matilda.

• 39:24Greg Jenner?

  The other Matilda.

• 39:26Speaker 04

  No, that may be where Actroyd's coming from.

• 39:29Greg Jenner?

  It's very easy to mix in Matildas.

• 39:31Speaker 05

  Got five Matildas to deal with, yes. There was something that she was very popular and the crowd were like cheering outside Westminster Abbey. So not for Empress Matilda, who they're like, where have you been, mate? They were cheering for Queen.

• 39:43Greg Jenner?

  So there's already a Queen Matilda?

• 39:45Speaker 04

  There is Stephen's wife, Queen Matilda. So for simplicity, I will do Queen Matilda and Empress Matilda.

• 39:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, so there you go. I had read about Queen Matilda and I thought it was our Matilda, but she's Empress Matilda. This is where the confusion.

• 39:58Speaker 04

  But, but there's always a historical but, isn't there? So Queen Matilda's actually been threatening the Londoners anyway. So as much as they like her, she does have her armies going, no, no empress, she's not coming in. Empress Matilda's also made a few poor political choices, so she won't give London a special privileges that they've always held. She's trying to get money from them. They're just like, you're not coming in, love.

• 40:20Speaker 05

  Don't annoy the Londoners, mate. Don't annoy them.

• 40:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we, you know, we've seen that she's had all this political skill, but it just doesn't pay off here. It really doesn't.

• 40:31Greg Jenner?

  Is it because she's showing up wearing her German crown, wearing her German shoes, saying, hello, I am here, I am your queen.

• 40:37Speaker 05

  I don't think you need those privileges anymore and you will need to pay me tax so I can live in Bristol.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:43Greg Jenner?

  I mean, we'll get to this, I think we'll talk about this later, but kind of the reasons why. But I think it's an, it's a, it must have been a humiliating moment, right? The rightful queen who has won militarily, who has captured the, you know, the.

• 40:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, she should by right.

• 40:55Greg Jenner?

  She should by right.

• 40:56Speaker 05

  Sail into Westminster.

• 40:56Greg Jenner?

  And yet the people of London are like, get out, love, you know, you're not around it. And, and, and she just goes home?

• 41:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, what happens?

• 41:03Speaker 04

  No, so she flees back to the west country and, you know, where she's safe and, you know, tries to negotiate with Matilda. So we've got the Battle of the Matildas now going on because Stephen's still in prison. So we have the Siege of Winchester in September eleven forty one. But Empress Matilda doesn't come out of this very well either. She's forced to flee when Queen Matilda rocks up with her armies yet again, so.

• 41:28Speaker 05

  This Queen Matilda is like hot in her heels, isn't she? Of like powerful woman and using her political strength. Oh dear.

• 41:36Speaker 04

  And unfortunately Winchester goes very badly because Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda's half brother, is captured.

• 41:42Speaker 05

  Oh no.

• 41:43Speaker 04

  So now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like, give me back Stephen, Matilda, give me back Robert, Stephen, Robert, Stephen, Robert, and.

• 41:51Speaker 05

  Get out of the pub. This is like Pat and Peggy all over again.

• 41:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 05

  Very equally matched, different sides of the square, but basically the same person. And she's got Stephen from Duke of Gloucester.

• 42:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 05

  Oh, Matilda.

• 42:05Speaker 04

  And Stephen is released and then goes back on the throne.

• 42:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, straight back on that throne with his very powerful and clever and politically astute wife, Matilda.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 05

  Well, it's got to rub in a little bit, hasn't it? It's the same name. So like everyone's like, oh, I love that Queen Matilda. And she's like, oh, oh, you mean that one.

• 42:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:23Greg Jenner?

  And then we get an even bigger disaster, Gabby, the Battle of Oxford.

• 42:27Speaker 04

  Yep. So this is eleven forty two. So Empress Matilda is again forced to flee. And this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time. Stephen besieges the city. They are sieged for three months and eventually she is forced to escape. She escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out the gate.

• 42:51Speaker 05

  Wow, that's Game of Thrones, isn't it?

• 42:54Greg Jenner?

  It's sort of, it's kind of camouflage, right? It's all sneaky, sneaky.

• 42:57Speaker 05

  But you can see one of the characters in the white, yeah, you know, Jon Snow is like, come this way. And then she puts her white cloak and then runs through.

• 43:05Greg Jenner?

  Presumably in ermine fur. Presumably. I'm trying to think, what's a white animal that they would have skinned in anticipation, like, come here. Little weasel.

• 43:13Speaker 05

  Thousand white ferrets.

• 43:15Greg Jenner?

  Literally, it's a lot of animals.

• 43:17Speaker 05

  Skinned for you, Matilda.

• 43:18Greg Jenner?

  So she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides to safety. So she's not captured. She is the European hide and seek champion.

• 43:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Does she go back to Europe at this point?

• 43:28Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I mean, in the movie, escaping in the snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right? But in terms of the history books.

• 43:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost, she's lost her.

• 43:41Speaker 05

  She lost it, babes. It's gone. The moment's gone.

• 43:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I mean, Stephen had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority, rarely sought in the womb.

• 43:50Speaker 05

  Not king once, but king twice, Londoners. Let me hear you. Yeah, exactly.

• 43:55Speaker 04

  Yep. If you remember her older son, Henry.

• 43:59Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 43:59Speaker 04

  So he does try and invade in 1147 on.

• 44:03Greg Jenner?

  In the name of his mum?

• 44:04Speaker 04

  In the name of his mum.

• 44:05Greg Jenner?

  Oh, that's so adorable.

• 44:06Speaker 04

  But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge.

• 44:10Greg Jenner?

  That's classic teenager, isn't it?

• 44:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, absolutely. Bear in mind, he's 14, so.

• 44:16Speaker 05

  That's so sweet. This is actually my, I should be like the king. Like, it's so reasonable.

• 44:22Speaker 04

  Yep. And Stephen has to pay for Henry's troops to go away because Henry doesn't have the money to pay them.

• 44:27Greg Jenner?

  Oh, that's so charming. He's done his best.

• 44:30Speaker 05

  Charming slash embarrassing.

• 44:32Greg Jenner?

  It's really, it's really cringe, isn't it?

• 44:34Speaker 04

  And then he comes back two years later, 1149, and that's a failure as well because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands. So he doesn't have the best of luck. Matilda transfers her claim over to him and he does these little hurries over the next few years, but it doesn't really get anywhere.

• 44:52Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so he's.

• 44:52Speaker 04

  Until.

• 44:53Speaker 05

  I was gonna say, because he is, he, he becomes Henry the Second at some point and he's the start of the Plantagenets, right? So, yeah, when does he get his stuff together?

• 45:02Greg Jenner?

  Well, it's worth mentioning, we haven't mentioned so far, Eustace. Eustace is the, the king's son, Stephen's son, and he, he carves it. He, he sort of keels over dead. He'd been the heir apparent.

• 45:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, you don't get King Eustace bandied around, do you?

• 45:16Speaker 04

  No, but interestingly, Stephen doesn't seem very sure on naming Eustace as his heir. So he had tried to have him kind of crowned as a co-king, but the pope at the time. Did said, no, we're not having two kings in England at the same time. So he can't be

• 45:33Speaker 05

  Oh, so he tried to deal with the problem that happened to Matilda by being like, I'm just gonna like, start him as a CEO now. We're both the CEOs and we're both in charge.

• 45:43Greg Jenner?

  Job shit. I do Mondays and Wednesdays Fridays.

• 45:45Speaker 05

  So basically when I die, you've already got a king that you're used to.

• 45:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. But Eustace just isn't freely put in place.

• 45:53Greg Jenner?

  He's useless. Useless the useless.

• 45:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, effectively. And Henry has gone off, made a sterling marriage for himself to Eleanor of Aquitaine. So he's now got even more resources. So once Eustace dies.

• 46:06Speaker 05

  And he's got the, the, the need for vengeance.

• 46:08Greg Jenner?

  Yes.

• 46:09Speaker 05

  Like he's got the, like a country was taken from him. He's been waiting in Normandy all this time, training.

• 46:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:18Greg Jenner?

  It's worth pointing out though, that Eustace has a brother.

• 46:21Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 46:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:22Greg Jenner?

  There is an heir just sitting there going, I can do it. I'm also here dad.

• 46:28Speaker 04

  Yeah. And Stephen's like, absolutely not. So they have.

• 46:31Speaker 05

  What's his brother called?

• 46:32Speaker 04

  William.

• 46:32Speaker 05

  Oh, another William.

• 46:33Greg Jenner?

  Another useless William. It's just like, well, I've done all the exams.

• 46:36Speaker 04

  Yeah. So they.

• 46:37Greg Jenner?

  I'm ready. Put me in dad, I'm ready.

• 46:39Speaker 05

  It's like the Roman in succession. It's like, we've got candle, we don't need you.

• 46:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. So Stephen and Henry make the treaty of Winchester, agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling.

• 46:50Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 46:51Speaker 04

  On how to rule. Henry is named as heir and William is going to renounce all his claims to the throne and has to pledge allegiance to Henry.

• 46:58Speaker 05

  Even though he's the rightful king of England. That's really weird, isn't it?

• 47:02Greg Jenner?

  It's brutal, isn't it?

• 47:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 05

  Wow. It feels like there's a whole vibe of like, everybody was like, yeah, no, not William. Like obviously not William. I don't, no, no, no, it's fine. Like it's fine. It can be Henry. Never mind this huge war we had with his mum.

• 47:16Greg Jenner?

  So we've had a sort of a, a narcic civil war that's lasted, I mean, over a decade, right?

• 47:20Speaker 05

  But this is mad because her heir then becomes king anyway. So Stephen basically just wanted, he just wanted the throne for a bit.

• 47:28Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 47:28Speaker 05

  He wasn't bothered about his.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  Dynasty.

• 47:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, his dynasty starting. It was just like, no, I just want to go at this job.

• 47:34Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 05

  But then I'm going to give it to your son. He just didn't want Matilda to have it.

• 47:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:38Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, well, that's interesting, isn't it? Right? Is there, is there something to that? Is Cariad right? It just doesn't want a woman on the throne?

• 47:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, that is potentially part of it in terms of, you know, Matilda goes over what we, what you expect to see of women at this point. We don't expect to see a woman ruling in England. But there is the slight issue as well. They don't like Geoffrey V. They don't like Matilda's husband. They're worried about foreign influence. If she becomes queen, like, what's his rule gonna be? Is she gonna, like, rule in her own right?

• 48:09Speaker 05

  Bypass that, but then they install his son, who must be

• 48:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, of the same lineage.

• 48:15Greg Jenner?

  But he's still a man, Cariad.

• 48:17Speaker 05

  He's a man, he's a man.

• 48:18Speaker 04

  And that's much more acceptable to them.

• 48:21Greg Jenner?

  So it's quite a sensible compromise at the end of this devastating civil war. It's everyone's sort of gone, come on, let's just agree on this. And everyone's gone, all right, all right.

• 48:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, because, like, Henry II is, is royal. His lineage is good.

• 48:34Greg Jenner?

  And he has all this land through his wife.

• 48:35Speaker 05

  Has all the land through his wife.

• 48:37Greg Jenner?

  So Eleanor of Aquitaine brings all this. So although the opposite applied for Matilda, you know, the idea of the husband being a problem, the queen, the wife is not a problem, right? Eleanor is great. That's, that's very handy.

• 48:47Speaker 05

  She's not gonna have any decisions. She's just gonna bring the land. Okay, I can see why they're on board.

• 48:51Greg Jenner?

  So King Stephen died in October 1154. Henry II becomes the king. So Matilda's son on the throne.

• 48:57Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 48:58Greg Jenner?

  And Matilda gets to be what? Queen mum?

• 49:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, she is a bit of a

• 49:03Greg Jenner?

  Is she sort of the Kris Jenner here? Is she kind of a mum and a

• 49:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And yeah, absolutely. She rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much full time whilst Henry's absent. Now, bearing in mind, obviously, Henry's got England, he's got all these lands that he's got from Eleanor, Aquitaine and his various other counties. So Matilda keeps an eye on Normandy, again, gets involved with the Archbishop.

• 49:29Speaker 05

  Mm, she loves a bike. She loves a puppet.

• 49:32Speaker 04

  Mum dealing with Archbishop of Canterbury One, we have Matilda dealing with Thomas Becket and Henry and trying to mediate between them.

• 49:39Greg Jenner?

  Doesn't go great, that, let's be honest.

• 49:41Speaker 05

  No, it doesn't.

• 49:42Greg Jenner?

  One of history's greats, not, not, not the outcome you're looking for.

• 49:46Speaker 04

  No, but she tries, she tries. We've got letters from the time that showed that she was very politically astute. She does get involved. She's very well respected. So for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in eleven fifty five and Matilda warns him against it. And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time. He does try later after she's died, but she still brings all her experience to the fore. And you kind of think she must have had a sense of, I never became queen.

• 50:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I get to rule through Henry, which is a pretty common female role at this royal family.

• 50:17Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, she gets to see her son doing the job and doing it. And Henry the second is one of the great kings of English medieval history, right? He's controversial, he has a temper, he kills the Archbishop in a sacred cathedral. So it's not ideal, but he's often, he often goes down as one of the great kings.

• 50:33Speaker 04

  Yes, definitely.

• 50:34Greg Jenner?

  Presumably that's partly because of Matilda's influence.

• 50:36Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, I argue he has a great wife and a great mum and they do

• 50:42Speaker 04

  carry a lot of the work until he pushes them off to one side. And then you can check out the Eleanor Rattray episode for the rest of that. But, yes.

• 50:50Greg Jenner?

  So Matilda dies in, in what, eleven sixty seven? Age is about sixty five.

• 50:54Speaker 05

  Well, she does well.

• 50:55Greg Jenner?

  And she dies in Rouen in Normandy.

• 50:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. And she's buried at the Abbey of Bec, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life. It was where she gave birth to her second son. And it's a place that's really important to her. So Normandy is her life, really. But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power.

• 51:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, she does end up in power.

• 51:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 05

  But not as high as maybe she would have hoped for.

• 51:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. And Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well, her husband Geoffrey. So she kind of just go, go.

• 51:28Speaker 05

  And Henry the second is the first Plantagenet king, is that right? So she starts a dynasty.

• 51:32Greg Jenner?

  She does, yeah.

• 51:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:34Greg Jenner?

  And a really good dynasty in terms of name recognition.

• 51:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, the Plantagenets.

• 51:39Greg Jenner?

  All the way up to the third, yeah. So we kind of discussed it a little bit already, Gabby, the idea that people rejected a woman, London said no, and there was this sort of moment like everyone was like, well, we prefer a man. There is this sort of accusation that Matilda is haughty, arrogant, sort of steps on people's toes and puts noses out of joint and maybe isn't, hasn't got like the kind of soft skills.

• 51:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:58Greg Jenner?

  Where do you stand on that one?

• 52:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I think there's an element certainly of like 12th century sexism from the writers of the time. They do expect queens to be in power temporarily, but we have Urraca of Leon Castile, we have Melisende of Jerusalem, we do have other women who rule in their own right at this time, so it's not uncommon.

• 52:18Greg Jenner?

  They're always daughters of kings, is that fair?

• 52:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:20Greg Jenner?

  So it's it's rare for them to rule, sort of having a quiet power themselves, it's often handed down.

• 52:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's usually inherited. But as I mentioned, they are suspicious of the role Geoffrey's going to play with regards to that foreign influence. She does make mistakes. She winds up the Londoners. She does release Stephen, so perhaps not all that political skills there. But given the chance, she could have done a good job. And we see that in Normandy, so.

• 52:46Speaker 05

  But then interesting, the release of Stephen.

• 52:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 05

  Is, so she doesn't murder a king.

• 52:51Speaker 04

  No.

• 52:51Speaker 05

  And then that allows her son to become the star of the dynasty. So actually, are we looking at her skills in a very like masculine.

• 52:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 05

  Powerful, overruling set of skills of like, well, you didn't get to the throne, that means you failed. Whereas actually, does she play a much more manipulative politician's game of I give you the king back so that I can then guarantee this? So she actually does get what she wants, which is the lineage, right?

• 53:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I think she doesn't conform to the gendered boundaries they expect. I mean, you talk about masculinity there. She expects to be kind of female king. She expects to be assuming all that power and therefore comes in with the expectation. Again, she's already been Holy Roman Empress. She's coming in expecting to rule.

• 53:34Greg Jenner?

  She's got the crown.

• 53:35Speaker 04

  Yes. As opposed to perhaps being that more kind of soft diplomacy with the nobles and getting them on side more delicately. She's a bit more forceful. And I think that's where some of that haughtiness comes from, that she's not.

• 53:47Speaker 05

  Like when people say she's a diva, but it's like, well, is she a diva or is she a woman who knows what she would like?

• 53:53Greg Jenner?

  Yes.

• 53:53Speaker 05

  You know, Celine Dion of the 12th century. And there's nothing wrong with that.

• 53:58Greg Jenner?

  There we go. Celine Dion of the 12th century.

• 54:00Speaker 05

  Ah.

• 54:01Greg Jenner?

  The nuance window.

• 54:08Greg Jenner?

  Okay, time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Carrie Ed and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henrys that we've mentioned, while Dr Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship. So my stopwatch is ready, you've got two minutes, take it away Dr Gabby.

• 54:25Speaker 04

  So I want to talk about medieval queens as co-rulers, because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it. And maybe they're quite pious, maybe they focused on what we call soft power, but actually these are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak. They are very powerful, they can share power with the king. And Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights. They work very well together as a couple. But going beyond Matilda, we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine. She brings her power from Aquitaine as Duchess and shares that with Henry. So I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and

• 55:10Speaker 04

  sharing power. It's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage, bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills, whether that's diplomacy and soft skills, patronage, mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty. Women are very capable of exercising power. They do do it on a regular basis and it's not just agency, it's not just something that's soft. Directly with Matilda, we don't see her leading an army at the front of it, but we do see women leading armies in this period as well. So I think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule. Not all power is vested in one man.

• 55:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 55:52Speaker 04

  It's shared with his mum, in the case of Matilda. It's shared with his wife, it can be shared with his daughters or, you know, sometimes with other men, but you know, with governors and regents and so forth as well. So I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think. They're not just there to give birth to children and they do quite well.

• 56:12Greg Jenner?

  Thank you so much Gabby, fascinating Carrie Ed.

• 56:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, amazing, absolutely amazing.

• 56:16Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it's been quite a life, Matilda's life.

• 56:20Speaker 05

  I can't wait to see the film. I can't wait to see Anne Hathaway in a white robe, sneaking out. Cate Blanchett, I feel like Cate Blanchett might be good.

• 56:29Greg Jenner?

  Who's playing the eight-year-old? I mean, that's tough, isn't it?

• 56:30Speaker 05

  That's tough. You've got to do a big national casting for that.

• 56:33Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 56:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, obviously. That's huge. That's huge. But for the later Queen or Empress Matilda.

• 56:38Greg Jenner?

  Yeah. So what do you know now?

• 56:45Greg Jenner?

  Time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Carrie Ad to see how much she's learned. Carrie Ad, you're very good at the quizzes.

• 56:52Speaker 05

  I know, but I always get really stressed. I feel like History G C E all over again.

• 56:57Greg Jenner?

  If you're in an absolute crisis situation, just say Matilda or Henry and you're probably good, right?

• 57:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, probably.

• 57:01Greg Jenner?

  But here we go. 10 questions.

• 57:02Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 57:03Greg Jenner?

  Question one. Who was Matilda's father who betrothed her eight to be married and maybe killed his own brother?

• 57:09Speaker 05

  Henry the First?

• 57:09Greg Jenner?

  It was.

• 57:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I doubted myself there. I was like, Henry the First, yeah.

• 57:12Greg Jenner?

  Question two. Where did Matilda spend most of her youth and teenage years?

• 57:16Speaker 05

  Germany.

• 57:16Greg Jenner?

  It was Germany. Question three. What was the White Ship disaster?

• 57:20Speaker 05

  The White Ship disaster, Greg, is a real big incident in medieval history. I'm surprised Carrie didn't know about it. This is where they are sailing back from Normandy to England and Henry the First's son was on there, William. And there was another ship that went off, but they all got drunk. They shouldn't have been steering a ship. They shouldn't have been. They shouldn't have been doing that. It's like Hollyoaks when the young guys get drunk and get in a car. And 300 sailors died and the only person left was the Butcher of Roan who claims, which I'm doubting this story. He's like, well, everyone had too good a time. They sailed at night.

• 57:53Greg Jenner?

  You think it's a CIA job? You think it's an assassination hit?

• 57:56Speaker 05

  All the heirs and all the legitimate sons died, including William's, William, Henry the First's son.

• 58:01Greg Jenner?

  Very comprehensive answer. Well done. Question four. Why did Matilda not want to marry her second husband, Geoffrey of Anjou?

• 58:07Speaker 05

  Because he was a teenager. He was 15 and he was not as high up as her. He was, made account of Anjou, but he wasn't as high up.

• 58:18Greg Jenner?

  Very good. Well done. Question five. Who seized the throne when Henry the First died instead of Matilda, the rightful queen?

• 58:24Speaker 05

  Well, of course, it was King Stephen. King Stephen.

• 58:26Greg Jenner?

  Yes, because his name means crown. You know, it's an easy mistake to make. Question six. Why didn't Stephen drown in the White Ship in 1120?

• 58:33Speaker 05

  Because he had diarrhoea of the bottom. And it was coming out of him like a river. So he could not move and he was not a well man.

• 58:44Greg Jenner?

  That's right. He was, he had regal fecal. Disaster, yeah. Question seven, how did Matilda cunningly escape from the castle after losing the Battle of Oxford?

• 58:55Speaker 05

  She put a white cloak on.

• 58:56Greg Jenner?

  She did.

• 58:57Speaker 05

  And padded out into the snow where she could then get away.

• 59:01Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, camouflage, back in the 1140s.

• 59:03Speaker 05

  In 1142.

• 59:04Greg Jenner?

  Look at you in your notes. Question eight, who led Stephen's army against Matilda after his capture?

• 59:10Speaker 05

  Queen Matilda?

• 59:11Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:12Speaker 05

  Queen Matilda, the other Matilda who the Londoners did like.

• 59:15Greg Jenner?

  Exactly that. Question nine, why did the people of London turn Empress Matilda away when she tried to be crowned?

• 59:21Speaker 05

  She was trying to charge them extra money, she was trying to take away their privileges. And the Londoners were like, we ain't having it, we ain't having it, Empress. We've got another Matilda, we don't need you.

• 59:31Greg Jenner?

  Very good. And this are a perfect ten. What was the sensible compromise that ended the anarchy?

• 59:36Speaker 05

  King Stephen agreed to let Henry, Empress Matilda's son, become king, hence starting the Plantagenet dynasty in 1154.

• 59:46Greg Jenner?

  Ten out of ten, Cariad Lloyd. Absolutely incredible, well done. Brilliant, well done Cariad.

• 59:52Speaker 05

  Thank you very much.

• 59:53Greg Jenner?

  And of course, thank you so much, Gabby, for a wonderful history lesson. And listener, if you want more medieval queens with Dr Gabby, you can check out our episode on Eleanor Accotaine, featuring Cariad's ostentatious castmate, Rachel Paris. For more Cariad, obviously, we've got lots of episodes with you, but Agrippina the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves. And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil Wars, which we've now discovered is the second English Civil War, but that's very confusing, so we'll just pretend, let's call it the anarchy, is a whole other thing. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in history corner. We had the fantastic Dr Gabrielle Storey, thank you Gabby.

• 1:00:27Speaker 04

  Thank you, Greg and Cariad, well done for not throwing any chairs around.

• 1:00:30Greg Jenner?

  It was a very placid anarchy today, wasn't it? We were very calm. And in comedy corner, we had the ever brilliant Cariad Lloyd, thank you Cariad.

• 1:00:38Speaker 05

  Au revoir, monsieur, as they would have said.

• 1:00:41Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th century French was actually a bit more Viking sounding, it was much more harsh Norman.

• 1:00:47Speaker 05

  Ok, c'est vrai, merci de.

• 1:00:48Greg Jenner?

  The Caesar K's in Norman French, anyway.

• 1:00:51Speaker 05

  This can knife is sharp.

• 1:00:52Greg Jenner?

  Yes, and to you lovely listener, join me next time as we consider both sides of another historical argument and then settle it with a compromise. But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me, it's mine, all mine, bye.

• 1:01:09Greg Jenner?

  Your Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

• 1:01:23Speaker 05

  Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.

• 1:01:25Speaker 06

  I'm Armand Yenucci.

• 1:01:26Speaker 05

  And I'm Helen Lewis.

• 1:01:27Speaker 06

  A comedy writer and a journalist teaming up like a pair of unkempt and unlikely superheroes.

• 1:01:33Speaker 05

  Our mission is to decipher political language.

• 1:01:35Speaker 06

  Stress testing to destruction, those used and abused buzzwords and phrases.

• 1:01:40Speaker 05

  Finding out what they really mean.

• 1:01:41Speaker 06

  And looking at whether they're meant to deceive us.

• 1:01:43Speaker 05

  Or to distract us.

• 1:01:44Speaker 06

  Or to disturb us.

• 1:01:46Speaker 05

  And our pledge is to help you spot the tricks of the verbal trait.

• 1:01:49Speaker 06

  But be one, this series does feature strong political language that some listeners may find an inverted pyramid of piffle.

• 1:01:55Speaker 05

  Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.

• 1:01:58Speaker 06

  Listen now on BBC Sounds.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  Sometimes we all need an extra helping hand, especially with the tricky business problem you've been putting off. Claude is an AI for just that. It's a collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you. And Claude isn't just for quick questions. Hand it a whole task like turning a folder or scattered notes into a report, and it does the work and hands back something finished that you can open and edit. Claude can now draft a doc or deck right in front of you, and Claude Design now lives right inside Claude. Describe the website or prototype your picturing, attach your design system, and it comes back in your own design language, ready to edit right on the canvas. It works with your files and the tools you already use, like Gmail

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  and Slack. And whether you're debugging code at midnight, building a financial model, or strategising your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai/solve. That's claude.ai/solve. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode. claude.ai/solve.

• 1:03:18Greg Jenner?

  Welcome to The Haunted Library. Join me, Colin Morgan, as I read Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. A story of science and ambition, loneliness and longing, and what it truly means to be human. Listen to The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts, or find us on YouTube.