Luka’s MVP Run, Curry’s Revival, NBA Roster Regrets, and a Bears Super Bowl Run With Kirk Goldsberry and Tom Pelissero

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kirk Goldsberry to discuss how the NBA is becoming a young man's game and the problem with injuries. Then, they dive into Bill’s early NBA season takes. Finally, Tom Pelissero comes on with his Pick Six for Week 9 of the NFL season. (0:00) Intro (2:16) The NBA is getting younger with Kirk Goldsberry (33:54) Early NBA season takes (01:27:38) NFL Pick Six Week 9 with Tom Pelissero Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kirk Goldsberry and Tom Pelissero Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Create a Personalized Price Plan® today. https://www.statefarm.com/lp/football/ Download Uber Eats and order now. http://ubereats.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary.

• 0:35Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new Rewatchables last night. We did All the Right Moves, our 19th Rewatchables movie starring Tom Cruise. He's one away from 20. Nobody's ever done it. Nobody's ever done 15 as a star of Rewatchables. Anyways, me and Kyle Brandt, super fun podcast. One of my favorite football movies and a lot to nitpick. So really had everything. Next week, we're doing Air Force One, me and Sean and CR. So you have plenty of time to watch that. It's on Netflix right now. Go check it out. Go check out the Ringer.com, great website. Go check out all of our awesome podcasts. And I'm going to have another podcast on Thursday. We're not going live after the Ravens game.

• 1:20Bill Simmons?

  So I'll have something good for you on Thursday. Coming up on this one, Kirk Goldsberry came on. Want to talk about his piece that he wrote today about young legs in the NBA and what it means. And then I unleashed my nine to 10 biggest takes of the season after two weeks so far. These are takes so far, subject to change. So we did that. And then Tom Pelissero usually comes on Thursdays. We had him come on today because I want to talk about the Bears and the trade deadline coming up. So that's the pod. Going to take a break. Pearl Jam and then Kirk Goldsberry. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Every football player brings something different to the field. Maybe they have a cannon arm, speed, power. Maybe they have their own podcast.

• 2:03Bill Simmons?

  That being said, no two players are exactly alike. And the same is true off the field. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 2:46Bill Simmons?

  Live from the state of Texas, it's Kirk Goldsberry. He's with us today on a wonderful Tuesday morning after 15 NBA games last night. And I somehow was able to watch at least bits and pieces of all of them because I had the football game going too. It was really great how the timing broke down. There were some classics. As always, the Pelicans are the league pass MVP. I am going to give my 10 biggest takes of the season so far. But I'm going to hand the floor over to you for the first one, which is your Ringer piece today about the league getting younger. Because it's noticeable when you watch it. It feels like there's less old guys just out there in general. And you did a deep dive on this, so take the floor.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you, Bill. Always good to see you. This piece actually came out of some work you and I were working on when Giannis was demanding a trade or whatever was going on in Milwaukee last year. And we were both like, well, what is this trade value? And going like that is a 31-year-old superstar. But long story short, the NBA has become a young man's game more than ever. The sport, as we know, is faster, it's more physical, it's harder on legs. But some stats that I want to start with is players 30 and older logged 51% of playoff minutes in 1998. So when Jordan is sinking the shot in Salt Lake City, most of the dudes in the playoffs are 30 or over. Last year, that was 23%.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's less than half. And when you look at who's playing the most minutes in the playoffs, there were 13 of the top 25 guys in 1998, again, in that older category. Last year was three. I'll name them Tobias Harris, James Harden, and Josh Hart barely there. And the year before, when we're watching the Pacers beat the Thunder, it was two. It was only Pascal Siakam and Alex Caruso among the top 25 most postseason minutes played. Only two guys in their 30s. That's pretty crazy. So I dove into this and I think it's related to some injury stuff, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. But ultimately, it was hiding in plain sight. I think one of the biggest trends of the modern NBA is that it's a young man's game.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  It's no country for old men. And we're watching these games, like you said, 15 games last night. We've never seen a bigger share of dudes under 25 and a smaller share of dudes in their 30s.

• 5:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I really started thinking about this when we were talking about it with Giannis and the odometer of players and what that means. And you can see it like Kawhi hasn't made a playoff run this entire decade, right? And the one time the Clippers made it, he got hurt. Durant hasn't made a playoff run since he was on the 2018 Warriors and the foot on the line in round two against the Nets-Bucks series. LeBron hasn't really been on a team that you really thought could have won a title the last five years and then this year. Harden made the final four last year. But for the most part, it really has gravitated toward guys in their 20s. I've been thinking about a lot with Jokic, who we're going to come up with later,

• 5:56Bill Simmons?

  that when you hit these guys, when they're right at the tail end of their apex, basically, can you do this for eight months? So it's basically you're doing it from mid-October all the way through mid-June. Who's going to have the advantage in that case? Younger legs, right? Whereas like, I think you mentioned the 98 season. Pace of play is way slower. Somebody like Jordan played, I think, 82 games his last three Bulls season, plus all the playoff stuff. But you could do it because he was gaming the system with the pace and how many, you know, how they allocated, how hard they were going. I think the field goal attempts were super low that year.

• 6:39Bill Simmons?

  But big picture, is this just what the league is now?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:44Bill Simmons?

  Like, is this a trend? Or is this where we're going? And I think for me, as I look at it, I just feel like the way basketball's played, which we've discussed on this pod and many others for a while, with how just hard it is to play game to game now, I do wonder if this is what it looks like. So you get a guy like Yaxle on a rookie contract that just turned 24. And that's like having a rookie QB. It's like having Caleb on the rookie QB scale now. Or Cooper Flag, who can play right away at age 20. You know, he's not even 20 yet and could be the linchpin of a team. What's he going to look like when he's 34, carrying the minutes that he's been carrying? We already saw Tatum break down and Halliburton.

• 7:26Bill Simmons?

  So do you feel like the league, the teams, are properly thinking about this in the context of how do we build, you know, a sustainable contender with what they're seeing from the data?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  I think some of them are. And I think if you look at the two inarguable best constructed rosters in the league right now, one that's had its own injury devastation in Oklahoma City and San Antonio, it's all young guys. And again, like, the Thunder are all young guys. They own all their draft capital. The Spurs too. Like, the smart teams are realizing, like, this draft capital is the most valuable thing. Spending high money on somebody in their 30s is a really risky deal. And I think 30 is the new 35 would be sort of the tagline of this piece. And I think it's really heartbreaking in a way because when we're looking at a player like J-Dub and Ant and Halliburton, you know, we're not just saying, oh, my God, they're missing time when they're 24 or 25.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Like, everybody gets hurt. But the Carfax report of this dude, when he's 32 years old, is going to be just bullet point after bullet point after bullet point. Will he be able to stay healthy in 2031? That's what I'm really pessimistic about. And just watching your team's game last night in Houston, the Celtics played the Rockets. Who sat out? Clint Capella sat out. Steven Adams sat out.

• 8:48Bill Simmons?

  Paul George.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Paul George sat out. These are the issues. So if you're spending money on players and most of the guys in their 30s can't play the 82, you're going to naturally be like, you know what? I want Luca Garza. I want Cada. I don't need these guys in their 30s because they just can't hang.

• 9:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and the smarter teams have realized that they need to go 15-deep to accommodate some of this stuff. But this is, it's such a weird conversation because on the one hand, I completely agree with this. On the other hand, we're seeing some guys play longer and being at a higher level than we've ever seen before, right? Jordan was, I think, 35 in the 98 Finals.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:31Bill Simmons?

  Now you have LeBron, who's going to be 42 in December, who's playing center, who's bouncing around, who in some ways seems like he has as much bounce as he's ever had. I know he's a completely different player now. But Paul George at 36 has looked awesome for the Celtics, right? And James Harden and the Cavs. You know, he, he, he's been, he's been solid. He's not gonna make it all NBA team, but he's been really good for what he is at his age. Same for Durant. So we're seeing guys be able to extend their primes, but I think what's changed is I just don't think you can count on it for more than 55 to 65 games. So you gotta figure out, how can you fill in the, the spots when they can't play? But then also, are they gonna be healthy for the playoffs would be the two things.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  You're exactly right. And the point I'll make is like, when you're LeBron James, or Stephen Curry, or Kevin Durant, you have a long way to fall before you're unplayable. You have a long way to go from the top of the world to unplayable. This is more of a story about Otto Porter Jr., who started, you know, three games in the 2024 finals at 29 for the Warriors, or is it 2022 finals?

• 10:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  And they, they win. He's out of the league two years later and he's quoted as saying, "My body can't put up with this anymore." He's 31. This is about Malcolm Brogdon. This is about Victor Oladipo, or Spencer Dinwiddie. That class of player, Bill. That, the, the guys who maybe are owed 10, 15 million dollars a year, but start to break down a little bit. So the Illuminati class, I think is gonna be fine, because they're so talented. Like I said, they have a long way to fall. So this is more of a story about Otto Porter Jr. And that class of dude who is 32 and maybe a 10-point a game scorer, and you don't wanna get into that 10 years of service category

• 11:24Speaker 01

  of paying him in the second apron era, you'd rather go with a 21-year-old or 23-year-old who's more durable, has a higher upside.

• 11:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, I agree that it's partly a story about Otto Porter Jr., but to me, it's also a story about somebody like Cooper Flag.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  100%.

• 11:40Bill Simmons?

  What kind of mileage can you put on somebody like that? When you watch how hard he plays game to game, is that realistic that he could play 15, 16, 17 years like that? So as you were talking, I was thinking about the different eras. I remember doing this in my book, which my book was 17 years ago at this point, but these different eras, these factors that kind of fucked up different generations, right? And 60s and 70s, basically, if you got hurt, you were screwed. Like, if you tore your ACL, if you tore your Achilles, if you, you know, ripped your patella tendon, whatever, you just had no, that was it. You were never the same. Then we get to the 80s, and that's when the drugs come in, right?

• 12:21Bill Simmons?

  And the drugs wipe out, basically from, I would say, 1977 through 86, probably wipe out 40 to 45% of the guys who could have been awesome in some way.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:33Bill Simmons?

  They were compromised. Either they battled with it and survived it, or they got taken out. Then you get to the 90s, and I called that the too much too soon era, where you had these guys come into the league getting huge contracts right away, and it kinda messed them up, you know? Guys that I think would have been great, especially if you had the rookie scale, but these Kenny Anderson types, that they come in, they're immediately paid like they're a success. You can see this happening in baseball now, too, with some of the, some of the contracts the young guys are getting, they haven't done anything. But anyway, I felt like that ruined, you know, that generation to some degree. Leitner, Larry Johnson, Chris Webber is probably the best example of all of them, but there

• 13:16Bill Simmons?

  were a lot of them back then. 2000s and, and, and the 2010s? I don't know. What, what do you think was the big factor for messing that generation up, other than the seven-year contracts?

• 13:32Speaker 01

  I think that was when we lost Roy Hibbert. That was when we lost like a certain class of player, like the post player, because the skills completely changed between 2010 and 2020.

• 13:41Bill Simmons?

  So that was a stylistic thing, yeah.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you still, you still saw All-Stars just falling out of the league. Like, Roy Hibbert's always my go-to example.

• 13:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah. So style of play changed, and then, uh, trying to think what, what other factors would have been. Maybe the fact that we didn't-

• 13:55Speaker 01

  The pace.

• 13:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, we didn't have the college infrastructure in the same way. Guys were coming in at 18, 19, 20. But now this feels like the new, the new thing that, uh, the new wild card for this generation is just how hard basketball is to play. I've been saying it for years, and early on, people were like, "That's bullshit. It was hard to play in the 80s, 90s." It's like, go look at the YouTube. Just spend, spend 10 minutes watching playoff games from the 80s. They're more physical for guys banging into each other, but it's not the same running. It's not the same flying out. It's not even like fast breaks where guys just ran a straight line and it was a three-on-two, you get a layup. Now they dart out to the sides. The Euro step stuff. I mentioned the sneaker technology last week, and-

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:38Bill Simmons?

  I got a lot of emails about that, and from people who feel like the lower tops just, and, and also the, the arc on the shoes, which are lower, because it allows the guys to have more control. That puts more of a burden on the Achilles and the lower part of your body. Because when we were growing up, the guys from the 70s and 80s, they would have knee injuries, right? They're wearing like higher, higher top shoes. Now it seems like a lot of the stuff is below the knees, right? It's calf, it's, it's hamstring, and it's Achilles and ankle stuff. And I really think the shoes are a small piece of it, but I also feel like style of play, too. So then you throw in the pace of play, and some of this stuff makes sense to me, right?

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think the other big thing, as I, I looked at this, so congratulations to the Golden State Valkyries who just won the WNBA championship, but they played 57 games, Bill.

• 15:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Their team combined to play 2,280 minutes. The Spurs played 5,000 minutes of basketball last year. The Knicks played 4,900 minutes of basketball. If you look at the Michigan Wolverines, they played 1,600 minutes of basketball, and they won the championship. The, the UCLA women's basketball team, they played 1,500 minutes.

• 15:55Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  You, you, you talk about the style, and that's exactly right. And I wanna come back to Cooper Flag in a second. The style has completely changed. So the 98 finals, there were 79 possessions on each, each side of that. That was a slow game. We would never see that game again. And there were 23 pointers taken. The game four of the 2026 finals, the epic comeback by the Knicks, 90-some possessions, 75 threes, up and down. And that's a big part of this story is, yes, we, we're still playing 82 games and all these minutes, but per minute, the exertion is crazy. Robert Parish wasn't doing Euro steps

• 16:35Speaker 01

  at seven foot tall. Like, that wasn't a thing. But Victor Wembanyama is. It's crazy to, to look at the choreography of the players. And that's what one of the doctors told me when I was looking at this with you last year, is the longer your levers are, the more likely you are to strain some of these muscles. The physics is just worse. You have longer levers, longer feet, longer legs. But one of the other reasons I think the young people are thriving, yes, their bodies are more durable, but credit where credit's due, Cooper Flag, Cam Boozer, Victor Wembanyama, these are guys, big players who are coming into this league at very young ages, ready to F'ing go, man. Like-

• 17:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Dribble, pass, and shoot. This is supposed to be Cooper Flag's rookie year, and I heard you talking about him, and everybody, Zach's talking about, "Holy shit. Like, is this the best 19-year-old player we've ever seen?" So it's pretty easy to move on from old guys when you have a cohort of Cam Boozers coming in who are, oh my God, like Memphis' best player, or second-best player is a 19-year-old rookie. So I think that's part of the story, too, of this sort of gentrification of this younger generation coming in, more compatible with the pace and the space and the style, plus their bodies are a lot more durable.

• 17:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, the guys from the 80s, they're at least three years in college, right? When they're coming in. Jordan was three. Karl Malone was, I think, three. All those dudes, right? So you're playing whatever the college schedule is of 30, 32 games. Maybe you're playing 1,000 minutes. They're not, they don't have the same kind of AAU stuff that, that the guys from the Cooper Flag generation and generation before had, where, you know, they've-

• 18:20Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 18:21Bill Simmons?

  I talked to Doc about that recently. They, they, they have changed some of those rules with AAU. There was a stretch with AAU where you'd played like 10 games in a weekend.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:29Bill Simmons?

  And I think they've tried to cut down at least some of that stuff, but I still feel like these guys are just playing more basketball. And you go, Cooper Flag plays one year at Duke, so does Khan. So do a lot of guys that come into the league. And now you're immediately at 2,400, 2,500 minutes potentially in the NBA. Now, if you're on a playoff team, that might go to 3,000 minutes, and you're 20 years old, 21 years old. It just seems like a lot. I wrote down, because I read your piece, that's on theringer.com, a great website today.

• 19:01Bill Simmons?

  Pace of play, better for young people.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 19:07Bill Simmons?

  Technically, pace of play breaks down older players, right?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:12Bill Simmons?

  So you have two things that he, the specific thing that's happening, really good if you're under 27 and under, not as great if you're 29 and over, right? But on the flip side, that pace of play as those younger guys, as Cooper flags in year 10, or Jason Tatum's in year 10, and you have all these miles and all these possessions back and forth, how are those guys going to age? And I think that's going to be the big X factor. You have all this technology that can help these guys age, all these things we know about dieting and sleep and, you know, people wearing the whoop and a million things. And LeBron would be the ultimate thing to point to, the North Star of like, oh, look at, well, look at LeBron, he's still going.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:54Bill Simmons?

  But then you have all these other factors against it, just wear and tear. And I wonder, we saw this in NFL. It took us forever to realize like, oh, NFL running backs are done when they're 30, right? It took this, took us forever to realize that, like, really for, for decades, we were like, wow, that guy's done. And now it's just like a foregone conclusion. You have Saquon Barkley or whoever, if he's still playing, that's why Derrick Henry is such an outlier. But if you have a running back that you committed a second contract to and he's still playing in his 30s, it's like a miracle. And I wonder, could that start happening with basketball?

• 20:31Speaker 01

  And there's a cost there too, because if you look at the 98 finals, and again, eight of the 10 guys, when Jordan hits that shot, most of them are Hall of Famers, they're all 33, 34, 35, whether you're talking about Kerr, or Rodman, or Pippen, or Stockton, or Malone, or Hornecheck, or Jordan himself. That familiar face thing, Bill, is a huge part of the NBA's sort of media revenue. That, these guys, they're stars by the time they're 32, 33, 34. If we're shortening their lifespans, we're diminishing the Q scores of the most important players in the league. And I think that's bad for the product. Ultimately, we're just playing too many games. And I know we've gone down this road 100 times, but SGA played 2,800 minutes, won

• 21:15Speaker 01

  the MVP, missed 14 games, by the way, last year. Asia Wilson wins her fifth MVP, I think, congrats to Asia. She played 1,500 minutes. Like, there's no other league in the world that's playing 2,000, 3,000 minutes per player. There's no other league in the world that's playing 48-minute freaking games. Like, when Tyrese Halliburton tore his Achilles, it was his 97th or 98th game of the year. Kelton Johnson and Julian Champagny played 100 and some games last year.

• 21:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  That's insane. And the other sport I'd point to, and football is, is right on, is Major League Baseball. And they had a similar velocity revolution. In theirs case, it was pitching the baseball, ours is pace on the floor. And dudes started breaking. It's not rocket science. Like, if you change-

• 22:00Bill Simmons?

  So Tommy John surgery for pitchers. And starting pitchers not being able to throw 200 innings anymore, not being able to throw 120 pitch games, having to come out in the fifth, sixth inning. That was the wear and tear of the sport, coming back to haunt the pitching.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  And I don't think we're going to have shoulder injuries, but I think we're going to have a rash of ankles, calves, hamstrings, knees. And, you know, in the first 14 days of this season, my student, Michael Reeves, here at the University of Texas, has been working with me on this injury data with The Ringer for a minute. We had 60 injuries. That's the biggest in our 15-year database, only narrowly passing last year, which was 58. So, we're starting to see it. We're starting to see all these injuries rack up. And man, I, I, I look at all the other leagues in the world, and I studied them, they play once or twice a week. They play once or twice a week. You wouldn't play football, you wouldn't have an NFL schedule that's 43 games. That would be ridiculous. Everybody knows-

• 22:55Bill Simmons?

  I'm sure they would try.

• 22:58Bill Simmons?

  Could us probably examine it. I mean, hockey added two games, which I thought was hilarious. That's another sport that the, you know, that, where they might end up playing 25 to 28, four rounds of the playoffs too. Listen, I, I don't know how many times I've talked about this on the pod.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:15Bill Simmons?

  About the schedule. And about how this, to me, is like, just inexcusable and semi-reprehensible that whoever is in charge of the league, which I think is Adam Silver these days, that he doesn't care. And I, the question for me is, you, you're going to make all this money, the Foley's are going to get Vegas, that's going to be 9.5 billion for the expansion team, and they're going to commit all this stuff. So the owners all get 300-plus million a year. All the franchise values have gone way up. They're going to get a second thing from Seattle, which is going to be seven and a half, something like that. And if Seattle doesn't have the money, they'll go to Mexico City. So, all these owners are getting, I don't know, 16 billion in expansion fees that they don't have to share with the players.

• 24:01Bill Simmons?

  That, just split that and have 30 into 16 billion, that's going to be 500-plus million a year. And yet, everyone's like, well, we can't lose games. We, we lose, we lose too much money. We lose revenue. At some point, you have to look at this holistically and be like, all right, well, you're adding these five home games for everybody, but you're ruining your players. And, and you're making your sport worse, and you're hurting careers, and you're shortening careers. And this should be a 70-game season, and if you talk to literally everybody who plays basketball, all of them would say, the season needs to be shorter. And if you don't do it at this point, I just think it's negligent.

• 24:46Bill Simmons?

  I really do. I think it's, I think it's like actual negligence and greed. And those are the two words.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Well, and I would say Adam deserves a little of the spotlight, but so do the players. To be fair to Adam and the owners, the players aren't exactly signed-

• 24:58Bill Simmons?

  You're right.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  So, the NBA ultimately, as the business school professor here, is a media company that leases out bodies. And the bodies are breaking. Uh, and the, if, if you're running this business, and the, Anthony Edwards is out, Tyrese Halliburton is out, J-Dub is out, Chet is out, Ja, Ja Morant is out.

• 25:18Bill Simmons?

  The season's two weeks old. We've lost six guys already.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Your media products is being sort of, the enshitification, to use the parlance of today, has, has set in, in part because of this stubborn reliance on 82 games. Anybody with any kind of link to a team or sports science would say, this is too many, this is negligence, as you say, to try to get away with this. The data are screaming, 40-minute games, look, and I've said this before-

• 25:48Bill Simmons?

  So I'm, I'm against the 40-minute games. I think we need less games. I heard Zach and Mahoney talking about this the other day, too. I'm against it, because I think that, first of all, I think we have deep enough rosters to play 48 minutes. I think the rhythm of the game would be weird. I also feel like for the fans, it kind of sucks. Like, the games are pretty short anyway. The halftime's 12 minutes, like, so I have to go all the way to the game, I have to park, the game's going to be over in two hours, the tickets are crazy expensive. I, it's, to me, it's not a length of the game, it's the amount of games.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  I'll meet you there. Yeah, I think that's fine.

• 26:22Bill Simmons?

  Like, I think, somebody's played eight games already. I think, I think either Atlanta or New Orleans, somebody, I think a couple of teams have played eight games already, and the season just started. So why are we cranking out four and five nights already?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  And again, like, when did your team fall apart last night in Houston? One game, but we all watched it. Oh, fourth quarter, the, the Rockets have more bounce, they're, they're making their threes, the, the Celtics threes stopped falling. The Celtics are on a back-to-back, they've traveled somewhere from a different part of the country, Paul George can't even suit up. Like, what are we doing? No other league is playing back-to-backs like this. This is insane.

• 26:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, hockey, because they did, hockey, the guys are just disposable. But the thing is, when we go to 32 teams, we can so easily just have a 69-game schedule and it all works out. Where you play everybody in your conference, I think, three times, and then everybody in another conference twice. And it's just, I think the number's 69, it's 69 or 70.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like that.

• 27:19Bill Simmons?

  But, everybody, it's funny, like, we have, we have the election today, right? Everybody's got, you're voting for like, whatever your party, your different candidates you like, and then there's all these props. If we had props as an election for the NBA, and this was one of the props, and fans got to vote, like, would you rather have 82 games or 70? This is prop 30, 31. Who, who's voting for 82?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:47Bill Simmons?

  Like, what, all, all the people you love, who, in your life, who love basketball, who would be like, no, I love the 82. I love seeing guys get hurt. I love seeing, I love seeing teams rest their best players on, on the second night of back-to-backs, it's great.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  I love when my kid shows up in a Curry jersey in San Antonio.

• 28:05Bill Simmons?

  Right, he's not playing.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's not playing. Yeah, I think when we switch to 32 teams, that's the moment, Adam Silver. I prefer a balanced schedule, the EPL has it perfectly, everybody plays everybody home and away. That, that means we can have a regular season champion that actually means something. We can use the 32 teams to have a huge NBA cup halfway through the year, have a big break, single elimination, nice bracket, March Madness for the NBA. But yeah, ultimately, you're asking the stakeholders and the media, the ownership groups, and the Players Association to be like, yeah, we're going, we're going to reduce our inventory by 25%. And you know it.

• 28:42Bill Simmons?

  I think it would drive the ratings up. So, the 69 was, everybody plays each other twice, that's 62 games. And then if you have four, eight-team divisions, then they all play each other, that's seven more, and that's 69. I, I said conference boards, division. But that's 69-game schedule, and that's what it should be.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  I agree. I mean, I'll do either one of those. I think, I think you're, what you're saying is, the ratings will go up, the media products will get better, and ultimately, this is a media company that needs to optimize itself in the next 10 years, or else, or else we're going to see a league that has a 32-year-old Anthony Edwards that can't participate in many games.

• 29:23Bill Simmons?

  Will, how, will 32 Anthony Edwards still be able to make an All-Star team with what's going to happen to his body over the next eight years? That's another question. Doc was talking about this, about with this G League and the two-way contracts and all this stuff they've added, and how teams, it's just easier and better and smarter with the second amper and all these other things, to just have younger guys at the end of the bench. And you mentioned Otter Porter example, or Malcolm Brogdon, people like that.

• 29:51Bill Simmons?

  You don't, you don't want those guys at the end of your bench anymore because it's cheaper to have these other guys who might actually be able to get thrown in. But what you lose is from a team chemistry standpoint is the vets and some of the, some of the smarter teams have realized that you still need those guys like the Celtics. They have Mike Conley on the team. Mike Conley will probably never play a playoff minute. He's like having an extra assistant coach. But guess what? Everybody on the team loves Mike Conley. You can see it during the games. People are talking to him during timeouts. He's, between him and Paul George, they have vets. And I don't think a lot of teams can afford to do that because they gotta play Russian roulette with the young guys, basically. So, we'll see.

• 30:34Bill Simmons?

  Listen, with the amount of injuries we've had, this is threatening, to me, it was 50 years ago, 49 years ago, fighting became the dominant storyline in the league. And it was a big Sports Illustrated feature about it, like this league is turning into hockey. These guys are big, violent forward centers who, you know, aren't on skates and could just throw haymakers. Every team has an enforcer. Is basketball getting too physical? And then a month later was the Kermit Washington punch, right? And then that became, over the next couple of years, oh shit, we gotta like start changing how we think about this. I wonder if this, this will be the year for the NBA with the injuries because the pace

• 31:18Bill Simmons?

  we're on, what happens when we get to late December and, you know, we have 40 players you want to watch in the league and 15 of them are hurt?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  It's not good and I hope we're not there because the NBA playoffs are fucking magnificent. And I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about the NBA. I love the NBA so much. I just see a glaring opportunity for improvement. And the regular season, if you look at where this league makes its revenue bill, it is April, May and June, and we have to protect that. But what we're doing from October to April just doesn't seem to be optimal. And I think that's what the data are really showing right now.

• 31:56Bill Simmons?

  You made the key point with the baseball pitching. There was a moment there with baseball pitchers where the sport was getting harder and harder for pitchers. The velocity was going up and it wasn't sustainable, but we were treating the pitchers the way we treated them in 1970s and 1980s, right? And all of these guys got hurt. And then they were like, wait, maybe we, now all of a sudden, everybody's getting Tommy John, people are getting preemptive, preemptive Tommy John surgery. And now everybody is so careful about how they handle pitching, but that took 20 years for us to do. And the NBA is in the early stage of that. We're gonna take a break, come back and I have nine more big things from the season. The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel.

• 32:39Bill Simmons?

  The NBA actually just got even better on FanDuel. I'm not surprised. I love FanDuel. This Wednesday with early win, a fast start could be all you need to win big. Pick an eligible NBA game, pick a team, bet the money line. If your team jumps out to a seven point lead at any point, you will win instantly. That's right. You don't have to wait till the final buzzer to cash in. I would look at Miami against the Clippers. A game that I'm going to. I would look at Miami in that one. And I would look at Washington's playing Atlanta. As long as Anthony Davis is healthy, I think Washington's a little bit underrated. So those would be my two. Check out early win on eligible NBA games in the FanDuel app. Just another reason why this is your most rewarding season ever on FanDuel.

• 33:22Bill Simmons?

  21 plus select states or 18 plus DC or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats delivering deals on game day. Delivered to me on Sunday, actually. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fit tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal.

• 34:04Bill Simmons?

  Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from November 2nd to November 16th. Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. All right, Kirk, I did not send these takes to you. 10 takeaways from the first two weeks. The first one was everything we just laid out in the first segment. Second one, Luka Doncic is officially making his MVP run. And I have a really hot Luka Doncic take coming up in a second, but he's 38, 8 and 8 already. 39.4% usage, which will be like top five or six all time if that keeps up.

• 34:48Bill Simmons?

  He's made 5.9 made threes per game and he's taking 10.1 free throw attempts. So this is like a Daryl Morey, coming out of the Daryl Morey warehouse, but 50, 43, 89 percentages. And this, we're finally getting a look at Luka relatively in shape, seems like pretty good so far. A team built around him that is just giving him the ball all the time. And we're finally getting our answer for what would this look like for an entire season. On FanDuel before the year, I mentioned he was 34 points a game. Think was like his over under 36 was almost three to one. And then, once you get into 38, 39, that was like 20 to one.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:34Bill Simmons?

  If he stays healthy, I feel like his stats are probably gonna look like this. I think he will be in the 36 to 38 with 8 and 8 range. Do you, have you seen anything that makes you think this isn't sustainable?

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Just his previous injuries, not to go down that road again. I think if he's healthy, this is what it is. This, it reminds me, you brought up Daryl Morey. It reminds me of the Rockets with James Harden when James was in a prime at the end of last decade. And we can see numbers like that and we can see offensive efficiency. So when you zoom out to the team level, Bill, you see the number one offense in the NBA, the most efficient shooting outfit in the NBA. And that, that really to me evokes that Harden-ism, that heliocentric, high usage, that I think Luka has borrowed a lot from James Harden. I'm not the only one who says that. And then you see the 21st ranked defense.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  That said, you know, this bench is so bad for the Los Angeles Lakers. I think there's gonna be moments where JJ Reddick wants to take Luka Doncic out of the game and he's not gonna be able to. We saw it the other night with the Toronto Raptors game. Where the Lakers blew a giant lead and JJ had to put these dudes back in. So, no, I think this is a 35 point per game scorer. Last I checked, he was on pace to break the record for three point attempts per game in this league. And if he's able to hit them at 37, 38, 39%, it all adds up to 35 plus points per game, Bill.

• 37:05Bill Simmons?

  Harden, you mentioned, he had the three seasons over 30 a game. The 19 season, he peaked at 36 a game, seven rebounds, seven assists, basically. 24.5 field goal attempts he made.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  How many threes?

• 37:21Bill Simmons?

  He made 4.8 threes, took 13 and got 11 free throw attempts. So that would be the model. And I think the pace is a little faster now. I share your concerns and dismay about the Lakers bench. And some of the stuff they did was just weird. Like, I don't know how you prioritize Colin Sexton over Anthony Simons, who was just a better player, who you probably could have had for the same money. And like, Simons was really good on Boston. I think he's been good for Phoenix. So it was, there was, sorry Philly. There's been some stuff that Polinka's done that made me wonder, does he have league pass? I also thought their Deandre Ayton trade was terrible. I'm not a huge Deandre Ayton fan, but they gave him away for a couple of future picks and Jaden Hardy, who's unplayable.

• 38:05Bill Simmons?

  And it's like, backup center, teams are dying to find backup centers right now. It's like, look at Phoenix. Phoenix has the worst centers on the planet with Mark Williams out. Look at Philly, they don't really have a backup center. And they just kinda gave Ayton away. He's making like eight million a year. They were like, here, take him. Give us these second round picks five years from now. What are you gonna do with those? All right, here's my Luka take, because it's been fascinating and compelling to watch.

• 38:32Bill Simmons?

  And I say this, I, this will get aggregated and it'll be like Celtic fan trying to shit on Luca. So I'm, I'm gonna put that, coming out of the gate, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna put that in. This is, I, I think the guy's brilliant. I think he's one of the best offensive players I've ever seen in my life. And it's not a new take to say that his behavior during games has been a little insufferable. I think this is the most insufferable he's ever been. I can't believe how he behaves for two and a half hours at these games. And I don't know one person who enjoys it. Like, to me, it's like when you see those commercials of like Gordon Ramsay, like these, these reality chefs who are just screaming at everybody in the kitchen. You're like, man, it would suck to work for that guy.

• 39:16Bill Simmons?

  That's Luca now in every game. And he's just, I, he's, he's just unhappy constantly with everybody. And if somebody talks shit to him on the other team, now he's gotta focus his rage on this. It was like, Ari Emanuel just wrote this book about how rage is good for you and rage, whatever his memoir was about the, the benefits of rage. I think Luca read it and ratcheted everything up a notch. I, I had a couple of people who were at that Laker game last night and they were like, what's wrong with Luca?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:49Bill Simmons?

  Why did, why is he like this every game? Cause the guy's brilliant. I texted Dave Chang. I said, he's like a young, young Dave Chang in the, in, in his twenties in some kitchen, just barking at everybody, making Slovenian goulash for, for customers. And it's great. It's fucking the best goulash you've ever eaten. But is it fun to watch this?

• 40:10Speaker 01

  No, it's not fun. And Zach Lowe and you and I and everybody else has gone off on this for a while. It feels like it couldn't get any worse. And then he ramps it up. And one of the great moments early this season, and I know we're probably gonna talk about him later, is Yaxel goes to the, one of his first postseason interviews of his career in the NBA.

• 40:28Bill Simmons?

  It was the best.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  And he just gives the, it's like, how do you make an October post-game press conference entertaining?

• 40:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  But he was like, I just, I never understood. I've never seen somebody talk this so much shit. I've never seen somebody complain so much. Um, and I think that was another data point that suggests like, man, this is out of hand. This is crazy. Uh, he's too good for it. He doesn't need to do it, but he is, it is Gordon Ramsay in Ed Malloy's kitchen. Ed Malloy has like a, a dive bar restaurant in, in Lansing, Michigan.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  And here comes Luca and he's like yelling at him. Like you can't cook the french fries like this, bro.

• 41:03Bill Simmons?

  Uh, listen, I'm not unearthing a new take. We've been complaining about Luca's behavior forever. I'm just saying, there's a guy averaging 38 a game right now who might score 50 any night.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:14Bill Simmons?

  And I have multiple TVs going and I don't wanna put him on the big TV cause I don't enjoy the process of watching him get those stats. And look, if he's on your team and you're winning with it, the Dallas fans loved him. I asked, I asked Jason Gallagher if, uh, you know, who we used to work with,

• 41:34Bill Simmons?

  for a long time at the, at Grayland in the Ringer. I asked him if, if Luca was getting worse. And

• 41:42Bill Simmons?

  he, he feels like it's around the same. He does feel like the one change, like they've gained the system, Dallas Luca versus LA Luca. And he concentrates, this is Gallagher's take. He concentrates a lot of his anger on dead balls. When nothing, when everything stopped. And that's one that's like, hey Luca, you can still do all your bitching, but just confine it to when like there's stoppages in the action. And you do notice it. By the way, it is way worse in person. Cause on TV, they're not catching half of it. So I, I don't know. I, I, I noticed it in the finals games. And you would kinda hope he would start doing it cause it felt like it would throw him out of this. But now I just feel like this is a runaway train that's never coming back. This is just who he is.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  I think that's what it is. I think Windhorse had the legendary take that got him in trouble with, with Dallas and so Lucas camp. When he, when he talked about the, when it begins with Celtics in the finals. Yeah.

• 42:36Bill Simmons?

  Biggest moment of the series.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he's laying on the ground. And I, I, look, you would think that would, that would be the moment you'd, you'd learn from it. Um, and you're right. When you are out of game with Luca playing, you see it. Cause it is oftentimes on the wrong side of the freaking court. And my thing with the LA Lakers and a Luka Doncic team is will you be able to play defense? The early returns are this is a bottom 10 defense, which is I think what we would all predict.

• 42:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  But it sure as hell isn't helped by a player that's not playing defense and complaining to Tony Brothers about some foul call that he thought he should have received two, two possessions earlier.

• 43:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. A lot of people have made that point that sometimes he'll be complaining and just won't get back. So when he got to the Lakers and he was obviously chagrined from the trade and was a little bit of a shell of himself. And I went to a couple of games during that stretch. And he wasn't doing it as much. I think, you know, he was licking his wounds.

• 43:31Bill Simmons?

  I guess what is the upside of complaining all the time? Does it work or not work? Cause we've had guys complain over the years. I think he is on the top, top, top shelf all the time. My favorite player ever, Larry Bird, used to do it every once in a while. Not as much as this. But I wonder like at some point, if you're a ref, you're like, ah shit, I got the Lakers tonight.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Oh man. Definitely. That's gotta be, yeah, that's like when it would have been Doc and the Clippers like 10 years ago, right?

• 43:58Bill Simmons?

  That was another one. And by the way, I thought that was really bad for them. And I've said that to Doc, like Doc, Blake and Chris Paul, every call just, oh my, oh, oh, oh. And there was this mania, like there was a conspiracy against them at all times. I think what's different here is Luca's the best player I've ever seen who does it this much. And I really wanna know if the, like Laker fans, if we, if we gave you like a, like a truth serum or like a lie detector. Be like, is this fun? Do you actually like this? I was making fun of some Laker fans and they were like, oh, you, well you root for Beta Tatum. Yeah. That's, oh, that's better. Tatum, just nice guy. Just, you know, just rolling over in playoff series.

• 44:43Bill Simmons?

  I'd rather have Luca being a dick. Um, I get it. You're gonna defend your own guys, but it's not that fun to watch. And he's, what is fun to watch is first quarters of Luca. Because his first quarters, um, he just feels like he could have 30 in any first quarter. His first quarters are always his best quarter. And it always is like, oh, is this game he's gonna score 80? You know? And there's gonna be a first quarter as, when he's healthy and playing like this, that, uh, I think he's gonna have like 29, 30, 31 after the first quarter in the next month. And everyone's just like, oh, here we go. Is this gonna be his, his 83 point Bim out of Biogam?

• 45:25Bill Simmons?

  All right. I said my piece on Luca. I know Gahow agrees, Clipper fan Gahow, who produces the pod. Next take.

• 45:33Bill Simmons?

  OKC.

• 45:36Bill Simmons?

  I have a zag.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:40Bill Simmons?

  I think they're gonna be fine.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  They showed it last night, didn't they?

• 45:45Bill Simmons?

  The more I watch them, the Jalen Williams thing sucks. And it's gonna probably make the difference between, if he doesn't come back in time, that just by itself might be enough to be the reason they don't win the title. I concede that. They have the second best odds. They are now four to one on Fanduel. San Antonio has the best odds. For regular season wins, a week and a half ago, you could have gotten them at 65 plus wins and it would have been minus money. Now Fanduel is basically saying 55 wins is plus 100. I think they're gonna get 55 wins. I'm gonna make the case to you right now, Kirk Goldsberry. You ready?

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:32Bill Simmons?

  They could patch together the Chet minutes. Chet thing sounds like a disaster, right? He's gone 10 weeks.

• 46:39Bill Simmons?

  Hartenstein and, and Mara were 15 and 23 last night against Cleveland, who has a big lineup. So that seems positive. 23 rebounds from your two centers. I think McCain and Sturts, who's good right away, another great Sam Presti pick. I think they can handle those 25 Wallace minutes a game during the regular season till he comes back. So I've now handled two of the three injuries. I have guys that can move into those spots unless I have more injuries. They lost Lou Dort. Have you seen him on Atlanta? He might have peaked two years ago, right? I don't even know what position he is anymore.

• 47:15Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Williams hurts. They have the assets to go and get Herb Jones or whoever to at least if they feel like they need more defense, but this is two of the three guys that are gone, they can replace the minutes. And I just, I'm not ready to be like, they can't win this year.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  I'm not ready. I think they're gonna win 50 ish games, assuming they're done with the injuries, which is a big assumption. The thing I'm worried about is Chet's impact on defense. Aday Marta, like his defense, I'm not quite sure I trust like that. I mean, Chet has had his issues, obviously in the playoffs with Wemby, but ultimately he's one of the better defenders in basketball. And one of the biggest reasons this team is profiled as one of the best defenses we've seen in the last few years. So I expect their stats profile.

• 47:59Bill Simmons?

  I think that day's over. I just think this is a, no, this for OKC to be that like crazy, insane defense like they were two years ago. They're a slightly different team. Like they're playing these three guard lineups. I think they're explosively or offensively more explosive to make up for some of the stuff they've lost on defense. And I just think this is a different version of what they have. That goes back to the Sturts pick, getting McCain, playing AJ Mitchell more, like these, they're really hard to defend. They always have three guards who can, who can get into the paint or shoot. And I think that's our identity now.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  I think they gotta find ball movement. I think they're dead last in assist percentage. I think they run the most ISOs. But when you have SGA, like that's a good choice, dude. Like we have SGA. Well, run an ice shuttle, it'll break down somebody, it'll get to the free throw line, it'll hit a midi or get to the, to the rim. I think they'll drop on terms of both offense, but bigger on defense. I still think there'll be a top half on both of those categories. I think there'll be a 51 team and God willing, they'll, they'll be healthy for the NBA playoffs and be the scariest three or four seed we've seen in a while.

• 49:08Bill Simmons?

  Maybe even a five seed. I have three teams that I think can win coming out of the West and they're one of them. And the other two are obvious, Houston and San Antonio. So, go get Herb Jones. He's being, he's being, by the way, UCLA is, is blowing up Bob Chesney's contract and giving him a huge extension after eight games, which they should. I think New Orleans should do the same for Jamal Mosley after seven games. He's done everything we wanted and more. He's taken the goofiest roster in the league and done some of the dumbest shit I've ever seen in my life. I would double down on him. Give him a longer deal. Like they almost blew a nine point lead with a minute and 10 left yesterday because Ty Jerome, who they couldn't guard, because of the fucking guys he had on the court. That's

• 49:53Bill Simmons?

  why they couldn't guard Ty Jerome. I would extend Jamal Mosley because he's that bad and, and fits in with their weird team.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  That was a crazy game. I know we were texting during the Ty Jerome explosion last night. It was almost, I think he scored 17 of the last 19 in regulation, then had eight more in overtime. For those who didn't see it, it, it looked like linsanity.

• 50:15Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, it wasn't like just him making 30 footers. These were like highest end point guard kind of points you could make in a basketball game with the other team knowing you're trying to score. And he was scoring anyway.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Is he one of your takes? Are we doing Memphis on one of your takes?

• 50:30Bill Simmons?

  Nah, I didn't have him on there because the

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Let me just, let me just.

• 50:33Bill Simmons?

  The take will be if he does this all year, this is 2005 Steve Nash.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  To me, the comp is, is Brunson. And, and I like the Nash comp, but I look at Brunson, I'm not saying he's Jalen Brunson, but you know, this is a guy who the advanced stuff is loved for the last few years, Ty Jerome, ever since he started putting it on the deck and going and getting his own buckets, like the estimated plus minus stuff, shout out to Dunks and Threes, great website. He is the, he sticks out like a sore thumb. He's been a top 20 player last year. He's 11th this year. And we see it in Memphis. Memphis is the first team to really be like, hey, you're our best player. Go get it. And it's been phenomenal, but he reminds me of Jalen Brunson in the sense that he won a college championship as a point guard. Really smart player, college player, kinda didn't have

• 51:22Speaker 01

  an identity more so than Brunson in his first few years in the NBA. Golden State, Cleveland, I think the Celtics dropped him and now here we go. And in the Ringer 100 is this guy, if we did a Ringer 100 ranking right now, Bill, where would you put Ty Jerome?

• 51:38Bill Simmons?

  I'd have him one and I'd have Yaxle two. Those would be my one, two. Wemby three.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Oh, I think he's top 20, dude. I think he's top 20. Call me crazy.

• 51:48Bill Simmons?

  We were doing this during the Cleveland season when he was awesome, right? In a weird, pretty weird situation because I think Mitchell is not the easiest dude to play with. But then in the playoffs, he shit the bed. And I think he cost himself some money, right? Wasn't that what happened?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And, and I think the shine was off the Ty Jerome rose. And last year he was just hurt all year. But yeah, it's the reason I thought of Nash, it wasn't playing style as much as just like this guy goes to somewhere.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:17Bill Simmons?

  People have already decided what his ceiling was. And then all of a sudden he ignites this team. I think Memphis is incredibly fun to watch. My next take is a quick one. The Sixers. First of all, incredibly fun to watch.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 52:32Bill Simmons?

  The bench is a little better than I expected with Simons and Wade and, and Zombie KCP is actually half decent again. But the five guys together makes sense. And I'll just get through that as quickly as possible. I've watched, I've watched a lot of them. I was really worried before the year about, okay, these guys are at the wrong points of their career. This doesn't make sense to me. My, my basketball dad brain was like, I just, I don't like where all of you are together at your careers, throwing you together. But I think they like playing with each other. I think they know Max is the best guy on the team now. Even Embiid's accepted it. VJ's figured out how to get enough of what he needs out of the situation while also being the fifth best guy. And Jalen Brown,

• 53:16Bill Simmons?

  for the most part, I mean, he's, he's been up and down. I know the Philly fans are a little grumpy about him, but last night was a good example. Like he, he can still, he's been on a lot of good teams and you can see him figuring out what he can bring to the table. And then LeBron has looked as good as you would expect, as good as you ever could have hoped for. So, look, man, they've had, I think they've, they've won, they're seven and one. I think six of those games were close in the last five minutes and they took care of business in each one of them. They've come back in a couple. So I, I've been, I'm increasing the ceiling on these guys, Kirk.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  I was cynical coming in. I couldn't wait to watch it. What I didn't expect was to see LeBron James as happy as I've ever seen him. The vibes are immaculate. Like last night's game, they're just, they have taken on Maxey's personality. Of all the personalities in that group, the one you'd want to take on is Tyrese Maxey. So they take care of the basketball. I was worried the defense would suck. Right now they're the number three defense.

• 54:16Bill Simmons?

  How about that?

• 54:16Speaker 01

  In the NBA. That's not sustainable. I haven't looked up the three point shooting luck, but that, I, I think they've shown enough to be like, they're gonna be competent on defense.

• 54:24Bill Simmons?

  But they're getting stops at the end of these games. So that ties into the top three thing, the fact that they're actually getting the basketball back without giving up, you know, points.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're, they're better than I thought they would be. And, and Zach had us do an exercise before the season, hey, if it's not the Knicks, who's coming out of the East? And it was a really good exercise. And I, I sort of hesitantly took the Sixers. It's the clear answer. But now I feel really good about that because, man, they look like the most talented team in the East. And they look like they're coming together to become greater than the sum of the parts, which I did not necessarily expect, given those personalities.

• 55:00Bill Simmons?

  And this might be the peak right now, us talking about it. Embiid could get hurt tomorrow. They have no sustainability beyond Embiid. LeBron would, LeBron seems like, you could see the light bulb going off with him, like, holy shit, I might actually have a chance to make the finals. And yeah, I'll play some center. Sure. I, I'm gonna bring this, like, did MJ ever play center for a team that was a possible finals contender? So you can see, I agree that he seems super happy. He obviously has a great relationship with, with, with Maxey. I don't think the relationship with Luka was good. And I think we can safely say that. I don't, LeBron last year seemed pretty miserable the whole

• 55:43Bill Simmons?

  season. And knew he wasn't, it wasn't his team. This time he goes on, he's like, he knew it was Maxey's team. He signed up for it. Anyway, good start for them.

• 55:55Bill Simmons?

  Oh, man, this really hurts. I'm just looking at my notes. I have little headlines for each one.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Oh, jeez.

• 56:08Bill Simmons?

  Almost don't want to do it.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Can't wait.

• 56:13Bill Simmons?

  Getting emotional.

• 56:17Bill Simmons?

  I think we have to pour one out for Apex Joker.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 56:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 56:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 56:27Bill Simmons?

  I know. I hate to break the news to you this way. And I'm sorry Zach Lowe isn't here to share this with us.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  It's a tough one, dude.

• 56:36Bill Simmons?

  Look, his apex was six years. Most people's apex in basketball

• 56:43Bill Simmons?

  is two to three.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:46Bill Simmons?

  LeBron accepted. Although LeBron's real apex was Miami LeBron and then was able to come back. I'm not writing off Joker. I'm really concerned about him post-injury last year. The way he looked for the, when he came back, how he looked in the playoffs and how he looks this year because he can't shoot threes anymore. They're not going in. When he came back from his injury last year, 31% from three. Playoffs, 19%. This year, 22%. The really alarming stuff, not just eye test. He's 22, 10 and 9 still. He's almost averaging a triple double. I'm not saying he's not good anymore. I'm just saying Apex Joker, best offensive player,

• 57:29Bill Simmons?

  you know, potentially in the history of the league, the way he was doing it. That guy might be gone. He's 47% field goal, 4.3 per, uh, field, free throw attempts a game. So he's not making threes. He's not getting to the free throw line. And I think the way teams are playing him now are like, take it, shoot, we're giving you that.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:50Bill Simmons?

  Which has completely changed the dynamic of their offense because Murray's playing great. Murray last night was like, we're not losing this fucking game. They still end up losing it. What have you seen from Joker?

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Same. I mean, he, he's down from 27.7 points per game to 22. Uh, down from 12.9 boards to 9.7. Uh, and you know, the other, the, the other thing I'd say is, yeah, his standard is very high. He set a very high standard for himself. So he did it to himself. Uh, any other center with these numbers would be like, holy crap, this is an MVP. But he set such a high standard. And then the other thing, I feel like I'm the vibes guy today.

• 58:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Is the, is the, is the shit talking with his own fan base and getting in fights. It's just, and then my, how old is he built? Do you have that in front of you? Is he 31?

• 58:39Bill Simmons?

  Uh, I'll look at it right now. He, I thought he was 31.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so to go back to the beginning of the conversation, it's like this league is increasingly, 30 is the new 35. Like it happens fast. This team has always been limited by his defensive abilities.

• 58:56Bill Simmons?

  32 in February.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  It's gonna be tough. They're 23rd in defense. And if you're, I'm sorry, if you're bottom 10 defense, you're not going that far in this league. And if he is your big, I mean, your big is your most important defensive player. If he's a step slower, uh, it's gonna be bad on defense for this group.

• 59:15Bill Simmons?

  12th year in the NBA. He also was 2014 draft. He didn't play that first year. Lot of professional league mileage before he got to the NBA. And then he's just played a shitload of minutes, man. Like his, he was basically from 2018 on, he was 2,400 minutes and up every single year. And then playoffs, you know, 789 and 23, 482, 24, 563 and 25. Like, that shit adds up after a while. I'm not saying he can't still be one of the five, six, seven best players in the league, but

• 59:54Bill Simmons?

  Apex Joker, I don't, I think it might be gone. And unless the three-point shooting comes back, I just think that, that teams are just guarding him differently. They're playing way off him and you can see it. That really made me sad. Next one.

• 1:00:08Bill Simmons?

  Impact rookies and impact second year guys. Feels like we have a preponderance of them, which ties into your first take. Because last year we had Flag and BJ and Harper and Khan, who are all like guys who could be on the floor in a finals game as one of your four or five best guys. This year we have Yaxle and AJ and Boozer. We have three guys who I think right now could play in a conference finals and play 35 minutes and be, and be fine. And AJ, not a surprise, he was the first pick in the draft, but I don't know how much you've seen of him this year, but he's just ready to go. This guy is like, they're, they're two wings, him and, and George.

• 1:00:48Bill Simmons?

  It's to the point that I don't know if you can trade Davis now. I think you gotta have to test drive this as up and down Trey Young is. Anyway, you have those seven guys. Murray, Boyle, Coward and Fears from last year's draft. You have Wilson, Peterson, Akoff, Morris, Johnson, Flemings and Mar from this year's draft. And then from last year, you also have Trey Johnson, Ace Bailey, Queen, Hugo. There's a lot of guys, just a lot of first or second year guys that I, I think you could see in the conference finals. I probably left some out, right? Carter Bryant, et cetera.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Dylan Harper? Did you mention Dylan Harper?

• 1:01:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I did. I mentioned him early. Flag, BJ, Harper.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  He is doing exactly what you, we all wanted him to do, uh, from year one to year two. But yeah, that's, that's my point is like, we're pretty hard on youth basketball and American basketball culture, but some of those names you mentioned are showing up ready to play in ways that rookies, since you've been covering the league, have not been. Like it's, it's unusual to see, I'll put it on Cam Boozer or, or Khan Knipple last year. Like you don't show up and lead the NBA and made threes. That's insane. Like that was never a thing.

• 1:01:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Uh, and you don't show up to the NBA unless you're Tim Duncan and put 20 and 10 up like it's nothing, like Cam Boozer looks like he's gonna do. So I, I couldn't agree more. Um, this is a young man's game.

• 1:02:06Bill Simmons?

  Yaxle and Boozer

• 1:02:10Bill Simmons?

  are the best. I am really good right away, ready to help a team. Guys that I've seen come into the league since, uh, I think Blake Griffin was the last one and he sat out a year before he came in. And then you go back like that. It's just really unusual for somebody to come in and immediately seem like a finished product. Obviously Cam Boozer isn't a finished product, but when you watch him, it's like, Jesus Christ. You know, and Flag came in last year and it was, the only reason that I don't include him in that combo is because they're playing him at a position. It was really rocky for the first six weeks. And I think all the stuff Kidd did for him actually really helped him this year. Cause he really had to learn how to run an offense, how to get by people. So, but it didn't look like that the first six weeks.

• 1:02:55Bill Simmons?

  Yaxle is like, they're, I, I, I, I'm speechless with Yaxle. I can't believe how good he is. And he's coming to my, the next take I have, but, um, these guys are winning players that could be in the, you know, the third best guy in a round two playoff team. I just was not expecting that.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Big win for the draft model community, the, the people who use stats, uh, to, to, to find the best prospects in, in both cases. Yax has been on the radar since UAB when Michigan got him.

• 1:03:24Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  All the nerds were like, oh God, this guy's great. Most people had never heard of him. They win a national title. Again, he gets kind of overlooked in the draft, um, but also Cam Boozer, when you look at the draft models that came out, a lot of people had Boozer should go number one. And look, I think that they're both mentioned right away. I think if we redrafted 2026, we might have some different answers already, Bill.

• 1:03:48Bill Simmons?

  I thought Boozer should have been second. I said that at the time. Yaxle, cause of his age and it was hard to say if it was smokescreen stuff with people worrying about like what his personality was. Then you look at his age, it's like he turned 20, people are making it seem like he's 30. He turned, he turned 24 in the end of September, right?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Bill Simmons?

  So he's 24 this entire season. So he's like a year older than maybe you want, but, um, it leads to my next thing. Cause actually let me do one, one more quick Boozer thing. I think the Memphis thing's real. I know some of the competition has been shaky, but this was the team everybody at the Ringer loved the over of heading into the season. I think there, if Ty Jerome stays healthy, I think they are a possible six or seven seed in the West. The way, how hard they play night to night, the way, the way the guys complement each other. It's everything we thought and Boozer's a big piece of it.

• 1:04:46Bill Simmons?

  That ties into the Yaxle convo I wanted to have about.

• 1:04:51Bill Simmons?

  This might have, my favorite non-Celtic, I think probably ever, other than Jordan, was Steph Curry. Jokic probably third.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:00Bill Simmons?

  Magic's in the top four too. Even though I was supposed to root against him all the time. I'd given up on Steph Curry ever having another moment in the playoffs again.

• 1:05:12Bill Simmons?

  The Yaxel thing has changed the game on this. Because in the NFL, you get a rookie quarterback, you get Drake May, you get Caleb Williams. And the best thing you can have is a quarterback who's cheap. And it allows you to spend money on the rest of your roster. The Warriors, who needed a lot of help with this Jimmy Butler expiring, who's not playing, Draymond at 27 million, which, you know, we can talk about him in a second. Porzingis, the most bizarre contract anyone's given out this decade. They desperately needed cheap labor that could play. They have this guy who's, you know, could make the All-Star team for all we know. And now it completely changes how you think about this roster.

• 1:05:57Bill Simmons?

  Porzingis at 20, Draymond at 27, Moody's at 12. They could package together any deal they want with picks and try to build around this. Curry's averaging 30 points a game on 28 minutes a game. And has looked like Curry the last three games. You can see the energy shifting as he realized what they had with Yaxel. First couple of games, he looked like Batan Death March, like, oh my God. The last couple of games, the joy's back, and it's because of Yaxel. And it's because of Niang and a couple of the other smaller signings they've had have panned out. But what would you do if you're Golden State?

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  You know, we got to see what this is. I mean, Stefan, I think, has one of the highlights of the season, too, dropping Luka Doncic. And one of the great moments where it's like, oh, maybe the Warriors aren't dead. But Yaxel, he's averaging over 20 points a game, Bill, with a true shooting percentage of 64. That's an All-Star, where I come from. That's an All-Star player. So I don't care what the name is, I don't care how many years he's been in the league. Show me players that are 20 points per game with 64 true shooting percentage, I'll show you All-Stars. And I think he brings more to the table. He's like a five-tool player, rebounds.

• 1:07:05Bill Simmons?

  Five-tool pass.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Passes the ball. Yeah, and I think they didn't have that. They have just won, I believe, five games in a row, if I'm not mistaken. I don't think they won five games in a row at any point last year. So I think it's fair to say they're on a different wavelength.

• 1:07:18Bill Simmons?

  Well, it goes back to the first segment you had about not having young legs over the course of the season sinks you eventually. This is the guy they need. They can rest Curry and actually have a chance to win the game.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, when Jimmy comes back, yeah, I think there's a move to be made there with all the money you laid out. Jimmy coming back. But more than anything, dude, if you just tell me Yax and Curry are going to be healthy, they could beat any team in the league. We just need them to stay healthy. But they'll be one of the more interesting teams to watch as we approach the trade deadline. It is shocking. I don't think anybody I knew thought they were going to be this good.

• 1:07:55Bill Simmons?

  I thought after the first three games, I thought they were going to win 20 games.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  They can shoot the shit out of it. They can shoot the shit out of it. Shocking with a Steph Curry team.

• 1:08:04Bill Simmons?

  So if I'm the owner of the Clippers, I can't talk to my basketball staff, or the Nets, or the Kings, even the Hawks, I'm bringing my front office in at this point and being like, what do we miss? How about Dallas? You had the coach of Morris Johnson, who I still really like, and I understand the pick, and he's the same major as Flag. He's four years, maybe they felt like Flag and Yaxel didn't make sense together because they basically play the same position. Any owner from pick five to pick 10, you're bringing in the staff and be like, how do we miss this? This guy's going to make the All-Star team. And on top of it, I mentioned this to House the other day because we got a mailbag question

• 1:08:49Bill Simmons?

  about would you rather have Shingun, Mosley, or Yaxel? And it's like, all right, contracts aside, different combo, but would you rather play Mosley 50? I'm sorry, I said Mosley, Mobley. Would you rather pay Evan Mobley 50 million a year or Yaxel 6?

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Well, that's the other thing about the age thing. There's a benefit here, is that I get age 24, 25, 26, and 27 on cost control. Like, those are...

• 1:09:17Bill Simmons?

  It's the biggest advantage you can have. You're getting the best years of his NBA career for 6, 6 and 1/2, 7 million a year. So this is a huge advantage for them, and it gives them life. Anthony Davis, that's the guy I'm watching.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:35Bill Simmons?

  By the way, I have no inside info, please don't aggregate that. It's not like the Bob Chesney extension that's happening. Anthony Davis, the Wizards are 4-3. I like how they look. He was great last night. And I was saying to House on Thursday, trade him right now, because the moment he gets hurt, the moment's gone. But if you're the Wizards and you're like, man, the bench looks good, Davis is playing great, the East is worse than people thought, like, I don't want to trade Anthony Davis. But if I'm the Warriors, and I could package some contracts together with some picks and try to get Anthony Davis, Yaxel, Curry, Jimmy Butler coming back, all their role guys,

• 1:10:17Bill Simmons?

  OKC's compromised, who knows with Wemby, he's 7'6", like, fuck it. We just won the WNBA title? I don't know. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now, that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen.

• 1:11:01Bill Simmons?

  No more searching, just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. I have another take on Yaxel coming up later. We'll rip through these ones quick. Just to mention, Houston's a top-three NBA team right now, but they also have Brooklyn's pick and Phoenix's pick, which would be two of the five picks I would want in this NBA draft.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 1:11:25Bill Simmons?

  They have Phoenix's pick. Have you watched Phoenix?

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  Their defense has yet to make its season debut on my league pass. I think they're in deep trouble.

• 1:11:35Bill Simmons?

  Deep trouble. Deep trouble. So I don't even know if you're Houston, I like their team. I don't even know what you would do. Like, you'd probably just keep the picks and do the two timelines thing, but I don't know.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Houston looks fucking good, dude. I saw them, they played the Spurs here in Austin, game two, the game that many will remember for Amen Thompson's block on Victor Wembanyama. I remember it for Alpern Shingun deciding he was just going to bullyball Victor Wembanyama. And these aren't their, this is not Kevin Durant. They still have Fred VanVleet, they still have Steven Adams. This is a deep team when healthy. Tari Eason is making his shots, all of a sudden they look like a different animal. But yeah, their offensive numbers right now, that's the real question with Houston. If they're going to be effective on offense, I have no questions about the rebounding and the defense. Right now, I think they're number one in the league, or two on offense, I guess. The Lakers are number one, behind a lot of great three-point shooting.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  I did not anticipate that, I'm not sure that's real. But if I'm a Rockets fan, I am thrilled.

• 1:12:37Bill Simmons?

  You have to be. I mean, last year, you were playing four and five, basically, with the point guard position. And it was, this year, now you have actual, I think VanVleet's looked really good. Like, I've been pleased, and I think Marcus Smart looks, you know, the Emaedoka thing, I think was a real piece. There was a big piece about it this week in The Athletic about the connection with those guys. I think that's been great for them, too. And I'm a believer, I had them, I did the Power Poll a week ago, I had them first, I would still have them first now. Anyway, they have the Brooklyn first and the Phoenix first, which...

• 1:13:08Speaker 01

  That's a great position.

• 1:13:09Bill Simmons?

  God only knows.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Great position.

• 1:13:11Bill Simmons?

  Other teams, I was going through all the teams that have somebody else's pick. The sneaky one is San Antonio has Atlanta's pick. I don't like what I've seen from Atlanta at all. That, to me, that's like, that's a team, what's their record now? That's a team that looks like it made a lot more sense during the summer than it makes when you watch them. And, yeah, they're 4-4 right now, but I, man, I could see that team going down, not up. And that's a team I would want, the first-round pick of, is my point.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the Spurs have had a few of the Hawks' first-round picks over the last few years. I'm still bullish on them, they got some stuff to figure out. I think their frontcourt is weak. But the Atlanta Hawks, they get, they're playing like the old Warriors. They lead the league in like assist percentage and highest assists per game. They force a lot of turnovers, but the real questions are in the frontcourt, and can they shoot the ball, I think?

• 1:14:10Bill Simmons?

  Kirk, they almost got beaten by six Indiana Pacer bench players yesterday.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  I know, you texted that. I didn't even know the names of some of those Pacers.

• 1:14:17Bill Simmons?

  It was a sports movie that nobody knew was being filmed.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  It was like, major league, they had put a bunch of scrubs out there, and they weren't supposed to win, and the Pacers almost won.

• 1:14:26Bill Simmons?

  Huff, Quentin Jackson, Braden Smith played 42 minutes and had a 19-10. Walker, Slosson, and Brown, those were the six Pacers. And the Hawks almost lost. It actually felt like the Pacers... I was, that was one of the many games I was watching last night. But, yeah, that's a pick I would want. Okay, next one, we're almost done.

• 1:14:49Bill Simmons?

  There's now a Cade versus Maxey versus SGA versus Ant versus Brunson conversation for which guard would you want right now for the rest of the season? That I think is pretty fun.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  I feel like Cade is doing the most with less of that group. When you look at the Pistons all summer long in that, that, that content desert that we were navigating, it was all Jalen Duran, Jalen Duran, the vibes are nasty and this isn't going to be, and here they are, they're six and one and they're on pace to win 60 games and get the number one seed or whatever, they're just one of the best teams.

• 1:15:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  But when you look at the supporting cast of those other guards you mentioned,

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  what are we talking about with Cade? He has nothing. He has, no disrespect to, but he does not have LeBron James and Jalen Brown and Joel Embiid like Maxey does. He doesn't have Ananobi and, and Hart and Towns like Brunson has. And he is just such an old school leader and a point guard that, that man, I would love to see him if he had a real supporting cast around him. And by the way, Duran's hurt himself.

• 1:15:55Bill Simmons?

  I had a friend who went to the Charlotte Detroit game last night, who texted me during the third quarter and was just like, God, Cade Cunningham's incredible. Like he's just, there's just no way we're beating this guy tonight. He's at that point. Maxey's 29 a game again. Cade's 24, five and seven. SGA is 28 a game. Ant was at 33. Brunson is coming off winning the title and is still the best crunch time guy you'd want in any situation. Curry's averaging 30 a game. And Murray, I think has been awesome this year is 27, six and six. Guys not in the combo as much anymore for me are Mitchell and Booker.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:32Bill Simmons?

  For different reasons. I think Mitchell,

• 1:16:38Bill Simmons?

  there's still a how much fun is this guy to play with piece to him? And then Booker just feels like, like we were talking about Apex Joker before, it just feels like he's headed at a slightly different point of his career. I would say out of all these guys, if you, even if you're talking about MVP right now, I think Cade's doing the most.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:01Bill Simmons?

  Cade matters the most to whatever's happening with this team. Whereas all of these other guys have somebody who could step in for them for a couple of games. SGA would be the guy that, it's lined up now for the SGA, the, the three MVPs in a row is kind of sitting there now because there was no way anyone was voting for him, but now it's like, if he can drag OKC to 60 games with all these injuries, we'd be like, holy shit.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Bill Simmons?

  Anyway, that, just that we have this many great guards again is awesome. Okay, last one. I have a, wow, this is an absolute disaster for everyone involved so far rankings for you. Feel free to throw in anything. I have six.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll go to the back of my notes with the bottom of the league here.

• 1:17:50Bill Simmons?

  Utah, trading all that stuff for Jaren Jackson,

• 1:17:56Bill Simmons?

  then trading Kessler for, to get the stuff they got back or they gave, they gave out. And then taking Peterson over Boozer.

• 1:18:06Bill Simmons?

  I don't want to say they could have Kessler and Boozer instead of JJ and J, Triple J and Peterson, but I'm going to say it because that was Dora B for this whole situation. They could have just kept Kessler, never traded for Jaren Jackson, who I didn't like that trade when it happened because I don't think he can stay in the court and I don't like his contract. They couldn't pay Kessler 12 million a year or less and just taking Boozer, who wanted to be there because his dad was a famous Utah Jazz person. And instead they went this other direction. If I'm a Jazz fan, I'm freaking out about this though.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  I, I wish I had a different take, but yeah, Cam Boozer next to Walker Kessler. It seems like a really sustainable front court for a while.

• 1:18:46Bill Simmons?

  Kind of a nightmare to play against.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 1:18:49Bill Simmons?

  If they had those two in marketing, that's like, holy shit. Now what do I do with those three?

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that feels like they could have had that. And, and yeah, I, I don't, I don't think the Peterson over Boozer pick is going to age well. Roast me if I'm wrong in a year.

• 1:19:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, listen, that's why I called this the absolute disaster for everyone involved so far rankings. This could change in a week.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:12Bill Simmons?

  This is just right now, trying to capture the moment.

• 1:19:16Bill Simmons?

  Number two. The Zubotz-Wagler trade. Just a catastrophe for everyone so far. Might change. Zubotz lasted two games and got hurt. He was hurt last year. There's questions about,

• 1:19:30Bill Simmons?

  you know, how durable is that guy going to be for what they gave up for him? And they could have had the fifth pick. And there's this alternate universe where they just don't make that trade or make it top five protected. And then they take Yaxle fifth, which would have been, we would have thought that was crazy at the time, but imagine him on that team. And then Wagner.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:53Bill Simmons?

  It's not good.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  Turnovers? A lot of turnovers in LA.

• 1:19:56Bill Simmons?

  Don't look at his percentages.

• 1:19:59Bill Simmons?

  They're pretty rough.

• 1:20:02Bill Simmons?

  The fit with Darius Garland, I have some, I have some questions. I might go tomorrow night. I might want to see it in person. Just so far, I'm alarmed.

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  They're letting you back in, huh?

• 1:20:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:15Bill Simmons?

  You know what? There's a lot of good people that work for the Clippers and almost all of them had nothing to do with what happened. So I'm, I'm trying, trying to move forward and move on. But the Wagner thing, so if you're them, seeing what you've seen, I don't think they were going to take Yaxle fifth. I think people would have thought that was crazy. Who should they have taken? Maybe the answer is still Wagner. I don't know. You watch these other guy, Acuff would have made no sense with Darius Garland. Mikell Brown, I have not been impressed by. They weren't going to take Flemings. Morris Johnson's not exactly lighting up in Dallas, so I don't know. They, they got kind of stuck with, wow, that trade worked out unbelievably well, but who do we take?

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's definitely a cliff after those first four guys. And they were in the fifth spot, unfortunately. But dude, yeah, that was a crazy moment at the lottery last year where they were playing Russian roulette, the Pacers were, and they lost. But it looks like they didn't get, it looks like the Clippers aren't exactly making them pay.

• 1:21:16Bill Simmons?

  I would have taken Burris and said it at the time. Next one. The honest trade.

• 1:21:23Bill Simmons?

  Maybe not as much of a disaster for Milwaukee, but if I'm a Heat fan, I'm panicking now. They got their absolute,

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  Thirty's the new 35, yeah.

• 1:21:32Bill Simmons?

  They got their absolute asses kicked last night by the Lakers. I didn't expect the defense to be this bad. I mean, what are they, are they bottom, bottom four defense now?

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  Bottom 10.

• 1:21:44Bill Simmons?

  I think it's worse. They were 26 yesterday before that Laker game.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're, they're very bad. And I thought with Bam Adebayo and Giannis, like two really good front court defenders, rebounders, versatile defenders, that you would at least count on the defense and the offense with the questions around spacing was going to be the red flag, right? That's what I thought. And Erik Spoelstra and, and Davion Mitchell's a great defender. So yeah, I'm a little head scratchy. I haven't looked at the three point shooting luck, but I have watched a few of their games. It doesn't look good.

• 1:22:19Bill Simmons?

  Per 100, they're 27th defensive rating. 119.8 per 100 possessions. Only teams were Sacramento, Chicago and Phoenix. That's rough. The Klay thing did not work out and there's a reason two teams are ready to move on from him. The Jovic extension seems like a, like a mini catastrophe. And I still feel like they have moves, but this has not looked good so far. And, and I don't understand why they're this bad at defense. So that's three. The Desmond Bain trade? And I like Desmond Bain, but Orlando just doesn't have a lot of talent. You, like, I was surprised when the Celtics played them the other day, like,

• 1:23:03Bill Simmons?

  I don't know, it just feels like Orlando's going to lose these games. I don't, I don't really know. I know Palo's out, I get it, but you make a trade like that when you feel like you could potentially make the finals. This team has no chance of making the finals. The good news for them is they have their first round pick this year. But that's a, to me, there was a bunch of teams that 43 to 45 win range and we knew one of them was going to drop hard like a stone. I think that's the team.

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  Such a weird team. I remember I was looking up this crazy Wemby stat. He's the best paint scorer in the league so far this year, but he's the worst statistical jump shooter, or so I thought. I was looking at all the guys who've taken at least 50 jumpers. And there were 60 of them and Wemby ranked 59th. The only person worse than him was Franz Wagner. And you know, Wemby has an excuse. He's 7'5", he's the best defensive player in the world. But yeah, Orlando still can't shoot. And whatever Desmond Bain deserves or, or, or they thought they were going to change that with him. They still can't shoot.

• 1:24:06Bill Simmons?

  Fifth one is Dusty May going with Morris Johnson over Yaxle. If I'm a, if I'm the Dallas owner, I'm like, didn't you coach this guy? He's going to make the All-Star team. Yeah.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  And, but to be fair, Morris Johnson though.

• 1:24:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  I like Dusty May. I wasn't sure that was going to work. And everybody I'm talking to in Dallas is thrilled. I feel like they have an identity. I feel like Cooper is thriving. But yeah, imagine if they had Yax.

• 1:24:34Bill Simmons?

  Because Kyrie, Kyrie's at a different point of his career, it's starting to look like, where he's still good, but you, you know, is he going to play 58 to 60 games? I, he looks okay. He doesn't look like Kyrie from eight years ago.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Can I put you on the spot?

• 1:24:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Is Cooper Flag the best teenager you've ever seen in the NBA?

• 1:24:54Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  You still think he's going to take the qualifying offer and end up in Boston?

• 1:25:00Bill Simmons?

  End up in Boston? I pray for it every night. It's him or LeBron, and I just think he's a better two-way player than LeBron was. Out of all the young guys I've seen come in.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  Those are the two choices that I can think of.

• 1:25:13Bill Simmons?

  But I went back, I think 2005, I remember voting.

• 1:25:19Bill Simmons?

  I think I did an MVP column that year. I think I had, I did a whole thing about LeBron, how good he was for his age that year. But I think Cooper flags a year younger. So you'd actually have to compare him to rookie LeBron.

• 1:25:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, this should be his rookie year. Remember, he reclassified. I think he skipped 11th grade.

• 1:25:38Bill Simmons?

  So if you compare him to rookie LeBron, it's no contest.

• 1:25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, rookie LeBron, great rookie, but couldn't shoot it. Was literally the most inefficient jump shooter of the year that year in 2003, 2004.

• 1:25:49Bill Simmons?

  And was skinny, like he didn't have the same physicality that five guys.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  Still pretty good, but yeah.

• 1:25:53Bill Simmons?

  My last one for the, an absolute disaster for everyone involved so far rankings. Phoenix giving Booker a giant extension and then building, building a team around Jalen Green and Mikel and Miles Bridges. Wow. The Miles Bridges trade looks horrible. That team has no identity. It's the complete opposite of last year's team. Last year's team was like this scrappy overachiever team with Booker. This year's the opposite. Jalen Green was Golden State's best asset last night other than Curry. And I don't know what they do and they have no first round picks, including the one that's going this year to Houston. But man.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, the worst defense in the NBA, playing a Western Conference schedule with the diminished Devin Booker doesn't seem like it's going very far.

• 1:26:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because at some point in these NBA games, it's a gunfight with your best player against the other team's best player. Booker used to be great in those. Now when you watch these games, it feels like he's going to lose the gunfight 20, you know, 20 out of the 30 games. It just doesn't feel like he has the same bag as whoever he's going against. Anyway, that's all I have.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  Phoenix, yeah, that's, that's, that's a good, that's a good one. I don't think Phoenix and Chicago is the other one that I thought you might mention. Chicago has looked pretty bad. And some people thought they'd be good, but they're the worst net rating in the league so far this year.

• 1:27:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they, unfortunately for them, they played the Celtics twice and got absolutely waxed in both games. And it felt like it spun them backwards and sent them to not a great place. All right. I think we covered everything I wanted to cover. Great story today. Go check out Kirk's story on the Ringer dot com. And I'm sure I'll, sure I'll say, how are you feeling about the Spurs? 1 to 10, by the way, before we go.

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  I'm a, I'm a nine. I think that OKC game, yeah, I think that OKC game was always destined to be a loss. OKC just had the chip on the shoulders, too good. They were fully healthy at that time. The Houston game, the second game, that sort of caught me off guard. But they've won five straight, I believe, Bill.

• 1:27:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  I will go on the record right now in October, November, I guess it is now, and say that the, the three guard lineup is not my favorite. When you look at their bench right now.

• 1:28:06Bill Simmons?

  I agree.

• 1:28:07Speaker 02

  It's Tobias Harris, Harrison Barnes, Julian Schumpenney, Carter Bryant. What do they have in common? They're all forwards.

• 1:28:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  I call the three guard lineup the one forward lineup because I think that helps you understand like what they're giving up when they have the stack of good play, rotation level forwards. So we'll see. They'll get it right. Dylan Harper, everybody loves watching him. That hasn't been a letdown. But I'm not worried. I do have one last thing to say though.

• 1:28:33Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  I want to wish my, my father, Lee, a happy 80th birthday up there in Cornish, Maine.

• 1:28:38Bill Simmons?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:28:39Speaker 02

  Happy birthday, Dad. So thank you.

• 1:28:40Bill Simmons?

  Awesome. The big 8-0. All right. Happy birthday to him. Kirk, thanks for coming on with me. Always a pleasure to see you. Going to take a break, come back with Tom Pelissero right after this.

• 1:28:50Speaker 03

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• 1:29:35Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by PayPal. The holiday rush is coming and you can get ahead of it with PayPal. Shop your favorite online stores with PayPal this season like eBay for collectibles, Fanatics for team gear, Walmart for tech. Check out the flexibility to pay now or pay later and split your payments with Pay in Four with no interest, no late fees. Shop now with PayPal. Paying for subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com/payinfor. PayPal, Inc., NMLS 910457. Normally he comes on Thursdays. Bringing him on on Tuesday today. Tom Pelissero, so you can read the sweep, his excellent newsletter. Check him out on Ringer NFL Show where he was last night, where he talked about the Bears, but I didn't get to talk about the

• 1:30:20Bill Simmons?

  Bears. Now, eight to one to, to win the Super Bowl. You came on with me after Pats-Bears and I said to you, that team was really good. Like I, I actually thought the Pats played well and, and they beat us and I, Caleb made plays. I was really impressed. Then they make the Simmons trade, which is a miracle last night as you're watching. Like, can a trade work out better than this for one game? Is this now the team? Let's start the, let's start the pick six with, is the Bear, are the Bears now the clear favorite in the NFC?

• 1:30:54Speaker 02

  I watched that game and thought this is a team that can win the Super Bowl. But I'm not even convinced at this point, you can say they're definitely the best team in their own division. The NFC North is unbelievable. Their, their record against non-NFC North teams is like 22 and 2 or something this season. It is absolutely bananas what they're able to do. And then you watch that game, like Jeff Simmons on the second, I think it was the second drive of the game and like beats Gray Zabel with one move and just throws Sam Darnold down.

• 1:31:24Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable. Yeah.

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  And the first thing that went through my head was, oh my God, I don't know that I've sat and watched the whole Jeff Simmons game in like four years because the Titans were always playing at noon on Sunday in some irrelevant game. Like you forget like what a huge piece of what he was last time the Titans were good. They got what they wanted in the two first round picks and more. And if he plays like that, he's absolutely going to be worth it.

• 1:31:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Congrats on having like the 30th pick in the draft for, for the South. I get, I get why Tennessee did it, but now you watch the Bears and you think, all right, what are the weaknesses? Because they're going to get Monta guy back. Now they're going to have two running backs. They have wide receivers everywhere. They've got Loveland going. Their quarterback's playing about as well as you could have ever in your wildest dreams hoped to play. They have, they can do a four man pass rush now, which they couldn't even do in the Patriots game. They had to do all this stuff where they moved everybody up. You had to kind of, the discount Flores. Now they can also just have the four man pass rush with more D backs.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:32:24Bill Simmons?

  And they're going to have a home field advantage. Like there's just a lot to like. And yet somehow they're not, they don't even have the best record in the NFC right now. But I would pick them. I think they've looked the best the whole year and they have, to me, they have the look, would be my take.

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  If Caleb plays like that, where a lot of the stuff he was doing last night was just within the, the structure of the offense and him and Ben, if you saw the locker room video and they're dapping up, like they're on the same page in terms of like how to play offense. And it's not like Ben's had to resort to, you know, 15 different gimmick plays. There's a couple of things they'll do in the game and you're like, holy shit, what was that? But a lot of it is just like they're playing super sound football. You can see everything working together, the mix and personnel packages. It drives me nuts as a fantasy football player, like Luther Burden is off the field half the time in the middle of the game. You're like, he's the best player they have in the red zone. How is he not out there? But like Ben's got all these different things. I, I think the Bears are really, really good and that division, I mean, you know, staring down the barrel of some of these

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  matchups late in the season, Packers, Bears on Christmas among them. I mean, these are just going to be massive games.

• 1:33:27Bill Simmons?

  You'll be there. It's a Netflix game, right?

• 1:33:30Speaker 02

  I will. Netflix.

• 1:33:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. They are the only complete NFL team that I can say I've watched as, as we're eight weeks into this season. Like a team that can run the ball, stop the run, throw the ball, stop the pass. The four basics of football, they can do all of them at a really high level and they can get like third and nines, you know, third and elevens, third and thirteens. They get explosive plays. I don't know what they're missing at this point. They got Tampa next week. That's a Sunday night game. And then a bye week, New Orleans, at Detroit. Gets a little harder than Jacksonville home, at Miami, at Buffalo, home Green Bay, home Detroit, at Minnesota, which is what you mentioned earlier, the gauntlet down

• 1:34:15Bill Simmons?

  the stretch. So yeah, schedule's not great, but I, I would take them in every single game. Great job by them putting that team together. All right. That's our first one. What do you have next for the, let's, let's move toward, all right, we'll, we'll do the other half of that game. The Seahawks, four and four. Just a year after year, what's going on?

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  I, I think that a lot of it traces, and you could see it in that game, that they just don't totally have an identity on offense. They got one thing they do really well, which is throw the ball to Jackson Smith and Jigba, even though they weren't able to get on the balls effectively in the second half of that game. Shaheed last night, that has an impact. I thought the running backs physically looked good. Price and Charbonneau, like they only ran the ball like a dozen times in the game. Like that, that has to be the strength of it. It just looks like something's off. And when Sam Darnold gets into the mode he was for a lot of that game last night, where anytime there's pressure, he starts to feel it even when there's not. And he's jumping around in the pocket and he just looks like he's frazzled. Like that's when we've seen the bad Sam Darnold. Like that's what it looks

• 1:35:20Speaker 02

  like. So how did they win the Super Bowl with them last year? They ran the shit out of the ball down the stretch. Like they figured it out. I, I saw that there's time for them to do it. It just doesn't look like anything is comfortable on that side. Ben Johnson's one of the only guys who can go toe to toe, calling plays against Mike McDonald and that defense. I was really impressed with some of the answers that, that Ben came up with, you know, just like the tunnel screens, like you said, on third and long that turn into, you know, big time games. Like they'll be fine defensively. On offense, you got a first time coordinator in Brian Fleury, who's had moving parts at running back, moving parts at quarterback. Now you're, you're pretty close to the hole, other than Shaheed. And you just added an all pro guard with Quentin Nelson coming in. Like they got to figure some things out on, on that side of the football. And it can't be Sam Darnold is dropping back

• 1:36:05Speaker 02

  35 plus times a game. That's just not a formula to win.

• 1:36:09Bill Simmons?

  I'm not worried yet.

• 1:36:12Speaker 02

  I'm not either. Other than just the record relative to, I mean, they would be in, you know, far by far last place in the, you know, in the NFC North, like they'd be like the eighth team in the NFC right now. Like you gotta, you gotta make up some ground and you gotta start doing it fast.

• 1:36:27Bill Simmons?

  Washington game was stupid. Right? That, that was one of the dumber losses of the year. San Francisco game, they just gave the game to San Francisco in the first half. Denver game was really stupid. And then yesterday they got beat, you know, I, I just, I don't think they're a four and 14. They got Arizona at Vegas the next two weeks and, um, you know, they also couldn't run the ball because they had third and fourth string running backs trying to run the ball and now they have their guys back. Did you, did you buy into the conspiracy theory that McDonald was tipping a Taylor trade last week accidentally or no?

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  No, I mean, they took it, remember with Charbonne the week before they activated him and then had him inactive for the game because he was at the end of his window with Price. It was more, they wanted to give him up to Monday to make a decision. Okay. The guys had like three days of practice. Do we put him out there? They came to the conclusion, yeah, we're going to put him out there, but that's, that's all it was. They were not working on, they're not a Jonathan Taylor team, they're not working. Now, is it possible they still make a trade? John Schneider makes as many trades as anybody in the NFL, but no, there was nothing, nothing going on on that front.

• 1:37:34Bill Simmons?

  Can't say Price has knocked my socks off. That would be one of my fears for them. But Charbonne I thought looked okay and now at least like on paper you have your faster, you can catch the ball in the backfield or run the ball and then you have Charbonne with the pounding it and around the goal line. So maybe they'll be fun. Lamar, since the last time I saw you, which was only five days ago, when the Ravens seemed to have hope for their season.

• 1:37:59Speaker 02

  One snap.

• 1:38:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. That game was over at 10:09 a.m. There, it felt like their season was over and they're playing on Thursday night in a game that I will not be going live on Netflix after. Um, I'm going to pass on that invitation.

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  You're talking about Joe Fignano? Nothing? You don't want to?

• 1:38:15Bill Simmons?

  No, Joey and I are not going to be, uh, be doing dialogue after that game. Uh, what happens now? Is that, have we seen, I know you've, you've already covered this summer on your NFL show, but this is my podcast, so I'm going to ask you the same question. Is that it for Lamar? Is that, that's it for him and the Ravens? Do you, if you had to put odds on him being in another uniform next year, what would you put the odds at?

• 1:38:39Speaker 02

  Well, let, let's start with the fact that Lamar hasn't been healthy for two straight seasons. Like he was never really Lamar after the hamstring last October and now this year he barely plays. Like that's not a guy who teams are going to be lining up to trade two first round picks or more for. They weren't lined up to do it when he was available last time, when he was at peak Lamar. Now he's whatever, three or four years older, he's got one year left on his contract. You're going to have to do a new deal if you're giving that up. I would say the odds are low at the moment of Lamar being on another team, but there's no question they're at, you know, kind of a pivot point here. They've also, by the way, they've restructured that deal. There's a cap charge looming. If they don't extend him, they would all end up accelerating, whether that's in 2027 with the trade

• 1:39:23Speaker 02

  or in 2028 if he walks. He's got a no tag clause, so he can kind of call his shot after 27. It's not like Eric DeCosta let it get into the spot. He's wanted to do a deal with Lamar for two years. Lamar hasn't wanted to and in the end, this could be, you know, to his detriment. I, I've seen people saying stuff like, well, Lamar's, he's got a contract year next year. Quarterback's never played a contract year. So this is a holdout or a trade. I'm like, Lamar has literally done it himself multiple times. In his fourth year, he had won an MVP and he played for like $3 million. He doesn't have an agent. He doesn't have traditional representation. He just kind of beats to the, you know, marches to the beat of his own drum. And so I, I don't know exactly how it plays out and we'll see with the thumb and exactly what the prognosis ends up being.

• 1:40:07Speaker 02

  You know, it still hasn't been ruled out that he could come back this season.

• 1:40:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, some guys have played with this or come back earlier than we thought. I got an email from Todd in Salt Lake City who wanted to know if Lamar was the NFL's Kawhi Leonard. Frequently injured, no one is really certain when he's coming back, weird representation situation. Teammates seem mildly annoyed with him, but nobody calls him out and then really good when he plays. Could we get another aspiration scandal with Lamar and the Ravens was the question.

• 1:40:38Speaker 02

  I don't have to say, I don't have any evidence that Steve Bisciotti's been finding a no show job on the side for Lamar. I'm not sure they can find him if he's not at the facility frankly.

• 1:40:48Bill Simmons?

  But that's, that's so similar to what was happening with Kawhi and the Clippers. Like they had no idea about anything with him. Is he playing today? I don't know. Have you heard from him? And that was the way it was. And it's weird to have a quarterback of a football team that it seems like there's this much uncertainty around him week to week, right?

• 1:41:05Speaker 02

  You go all the way back to the pre-draft process. I mean, people couldn't get ahold of him to like come in for visits and stuff. Like everything about his career has been unusual, but like he, he's just, he's such a dynamic football player. He's overcome it just because of the ability and the fact that he does elevate everybody around him. This, this was always the concern. Anytime you got guys whose legs are a big part of their game, like it's a depreciating asset. I'm not, I'm not saying Lamar is done. We've seen other than, you know, obviously like week one this year, you can go back to that tape and look what they did. But by and large, we haven't seen real Lamar over the past couple of years, which at this age, like you're getting into kind of, you know, the Russell Wilson territory too.

• 1:41:45Speaker 02

  Russ wasn't hurt all the time. He did miss a little time at the end in Seattle, but it's like, then when he got traded and you're kind of like, why was he available? And in hindsight, like the flags were there. If all of a sudden the Ravens pivot to, we'll trade Lamar. I, I think that everybody beyond what they already know from the unavailability here is going to have to go, wait, he's been trying to extend him for two years and now you're willing to eat this huge cap charge to trade him? Like what's, what's the catch? I just, I just don't know that there'd be a huge market for him, even though if he wants to be playing football, which I have no reason to think he doesn't, I anticipate he'll be playing somewhere in 2027, probably Baltimore.

• 1:42:20Bill Simmons?

  The Jets do have three first round picks that are all probably going to be in the top 12 and they are the Jets. They do need a quarterback.

• 1:42:27Speaker 02

  Played all right this year. He's been, it's been fine and he's played more than Lamar, put in more numbers than Lamar.

• 1:42:34Bill Simmons?

  I'd be super nervous to trade for Lamar. I mean, this last injury, I feel like could have happened to anyone in the league. So you can't really hang that on him and I always wonder why it doesn't happen more often, but you know, he hit his, hit his hand on somebody's hand and his thumb broke. Would, would that have happened to?

• 1:42:50Speaker 02

  Baker had it happen earlier this year.

• 1:42:52Bill Simmons?

  Quarterbacks, I think it would have. Uh, Jonathan Taylor, you mentioned earlier with the Seahawks. So is he the most likely guy to get traded who you also wouldn't be surprised if they were stupid enough not to trade him?

• 1:43:05Speaker 02

  I, I don't think it would be stupid not to trade him because you can still trade him in February and March. I, I, from what I know right now, and I reported in the sweep on Saturday, like they've already been offered a 2027 second round pick and another pick and immediately said, no. And that was the end of the conversation. It has to be something real, you know, Christian McCaffrey was traded for a two, a three and a four, and then a future fifth round pick. I don't know that it has to be that, but it has to be pretty close to that. Otherwise, like why would, if you're Carlisle, say Gordon and you're hiring a new GM and you may be hiring a new head coach, like why would you empty the cupboard and trade guys for less than you think you could get in a more stable market where people, you know, you have new budgets in February and March, teams are re-projecting like, I'm not saying he won't be traded,

• 1:43:50Speaker 02

  but if you're asking me right now where I think Jonathan Taylor is most likely to be November 11th, the day after the deadline, I'd stay, say still with the Colts, just because, you know, for all the, the stuff out there about, you know, it's picking up and, you know, everybody feeling like, oh, are they going to deactivate? I'm like, no, there was nothing going on. Like it's, you get the offer, you say no, and if somebody comes back with one that's good enough, you eventually say yes. Like these things aren't super complicated. Um,

• 1:44:18Bill Simmons?

  Second round pick, second round pick sounds like a pretty good offer. Like for, people don't give up first round picks for running backs. When was the last time that happened?

• 1:44:26Speaker 02

  No, but it's,

• 1:44:27Bill Simmons?

  It's not 1990. Like if I'm the Colts, I'm like, we're got, they offered us a second, I'll take it.

• 1:44:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you have to look at the precedent on these types of deals. McCaffrey again was four picks. Like if you're getting offered a second and then a fifth in a future year, like I, I don't know that that, that moves the needle. So I think it has to be multiple high picks in 2027. If it's not going to be a first rounder, maybe it's a two and a three and then a future.

• 1:44:51Bill Simmons?

  Do you think Taylor is as good as McCaffrey though? Like when McCaffrey got traded, everybody was like, whoa. They traded Christian McCaffrey. Holy shit.

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  McCaffrey had also had a long stretch where you remember like he was always hurt and he had had that one year where he finally was healthy. And they, they kind of sold high on him. Like you can go back in time and say, should they have held on to him? But it's like where the Panthers were, like he wasn't going to be the difference and they were like, he's probably just going to, you know, go get hurt again. But it's a little bit like the Giants letting Saquon go in free agency to the Eagles. It's like, how well can he and the Eagles possibly do? Oh, he ran for 2,000 yards and they won the Superbowl? Well, that's a bad outcome here, but what's Saquon done since? Been banged up for, for two years. Like running backs are weird in that regard. Like I, I just don't know that there's anything other than an injury, obviously, which is the one risk.

• 1:45:39Speaker 02

  I don't know if there's anything that happens between now and March where you get less for Jonathan Taylor. I think it's a lot like the Jalen Waddle thing last year with Miami where they had a first round pick and more on the table for them with their interim GM and they were like, we, we want a first round pick this year, not next year. So we're just going to wait. And what did they do? They got a first round pick this year, um, when they traded him to Denver.

• 1:46:01Bill Simmons?

  What would the, what would the Chiefs do if the Colts called them and said, "Really enjoyed what we saw from Jonah Coleman on Sunday." "You can have Taylor for a second and Jonah Coleman will do it right now."

• 1:46:14Speaker 02

  You mean Denver for Jonah Coleman or Emmett Johnson for Chiefs?

• 1:46:19Bill Simmons?

  No, I meant Jonah Coleman.

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  Jonah Coleman from Denver?

• 1:46:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that's one of many different structures that you could pull off. I know there was like the rumors on Jadaian Price going for Jonathan Taylor, but I just don't know that you want to, again, lock into a running back. I mean, the new GM might be like, "I didn't even like that guy coming out. Why do I have him and not Jonathan Taylor as a chip on my roster?" Like that's, and also, by the way, this is one thing that I don't think it's talked about enough. Like, these teams still have to play the games. Like, why don't you see teams trade like seven or nine guys, like completely, you know, just like NBA strip it down? It's like, because they gotta, they gotta play nine more games this season. And if you start trading too many players, like you're putting practice squad guys, you're signing guys off the street to go play. Like, you're literally putting other guys in danger,

• 1:47:06Speaker 02

  much less making it, you know, impossible to win a football game here. So there is a fine line. The Colts are not, that's why I've said, like, the Colts are not in a fire sale. They traded Buckner and Nelson because they're contract year, older guys who weren't going to be back. So you got more than the comp value. You move on, you get, you get cash and cap space. These other guys like Taylor, he's under contract. Like, you don't have to do anything and, you know, whatever leaks come out and whoever hard other people outside the building are pushing you, like, you ultimately can just go, "It's under contract. We're sitting here."

• 1:47:35Bill Simmons?

  What do they do if he asks for a trade?

• 1:47:38Speaker 02

  I don't think that it substantively changes anything because they're willing and open to listen now. It's like, it's like Josh Downs when he requested a trade last week. It was like, "Okay, we're already willing to trade you."

• 1:47:49Bill Simmons?

  Play better, Josh Downs. Start there.

• 1:47:51Speaker 02

  Go out, play well, and that'll help us get value, and then we'll trade you. Like, the, the trade, the public trade request, to me, only makes sense when the team is going, "We will not listen. We will not listen to you." Because every agent is calling every team. Every agent who has relationships is already talking to every team. It's like, they gave them permission. It's like, "We didn't need it." You just go. Everyone tampers. Just call everybody. Like, they're already doing it. Some of those things get overblown. It's like, it's the social thing and it gets all the rumors going, which honestly then feeds the players because everyone around them is texting, "Oh, you're about to be traded." Jonathan Taylor's wife's out there making TikToks about it. It's like, they're, they're willing to trade him, but like, they'd have to be offered a lot. Like, that's,

• 1:48:30Speaker 02

  that's it. The only call that matters is the one that's going into, to Ed Dodd's office right now, and they don't have enough on him.

• 1:48:37Bill Simmons?

  I would trade him because I don't have a first round pick and because I'm putting him next to one of the worst quarterback situations in the league. And there's injury potential and all kinds of things that I would just do it. Um, speaking of bad quarterback situations, I feel like this is part of the pick six every week, but, uh, the Vikings, what do they do now? Sal and I talked about this on Sunday. It felt like,

• 1:49:01Bill Simmons?

  it felt, Sunday felt like the moment where you just go, "This, this doesn't work with Kyler Murray." He can't get the ball to their receivers. He really can only throw the ball to tight ends. Um, he's going to get Jefferson or Addison like badly hurt with one of these passes that is sailing and you kind of have to figure this out ASAP. You're six and one. So what do they do?

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  What I noticed with Kyler is he looks more comfortable in terms of, like, he knows where the ball is supposed to go. But he's not getting it there on any of these like perimeter routes, sharp breaking routes. I mean, how many times did he throw the ball five feet over Justin, Jefferson's head in that game? He made a couple of great throws. The seam ball to Hawkinson, the post to Jordan Addison over two defenders. Like, those are big time throws, but you can kind of put some air under it and get it out there, which has always been something Kyler's been good at. It's a little bit like Russell Wilson too, where it's like, you can throw those moon balls, but when you put them into a precision offense where, okay, it's hit the top of your drop and throw it. There's a video going around where it's Kyler, it's a, a run play to the right, like a zone run, but then they always put these backside slants.

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  So Kyler sees it. He's got the right coverage. He turns to throw it to Jefferson on the slant, which is wide open. It's going to go for a touchdown. Well, he's got two guys with hands in his face. Kyler can't see. So now he's like off schedule and he's like, it, the timing of the play's off. He throws the ball to the dirt and Jefferson's going, like, "What are we doing here?" That's, that's become an issue. I don't think that it's not salvageable with Kyler Murray, but there are things when you're playing with a shorter quarterback, um, that does create some challenges. I would say this. I expect that they will, that they are evaluating all potential options and seeing if there's something out there.

• 1:50:41Bill Simmons?

  Come on, you know what the move is.

• 1:50:42Speaker 02

  Because they're six and one.

• 1:50:43Bill Simmons?

  You know what, you know what they're gonna do. Come on.

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  Trade for Kirk?

• 1:50:46Bill Simmons?

  Come on. It's sitting right there.

• 1:50:48Speaker 02

  For Daniel Jones?

• 1:50:48Bill Simmons?

  No, Kirk Cousins. It's sitting right there. What are we waiting for? Just, everybody just needs to step in and be like, "Come on, we all know this is going to be the trade. Just fucking do it. Let's go." Mendoza takes over the Raiders, Kirk goes back home. Let's just do this.

• 1:51:02Speaker 02

  If the Raiders had lost to the Jets, I think there would have been a real chance that the Raiders would have been willing to move Kirk. He, he lit it up in that game. Kirk Cousins has been a top 10 quarterback in the NFL this season by every metric. And he's, you know, he's doing the Kirk O'Chains thing again. Guys are rallying around him. Like, all that to me says, Mark Davis isn't going to go, "Yeah, let's, let's just throw the rookie in there." Like, this was the way that they, they set it up. I do think that there's, there's still an opening. And it would make sense, whether it's the Vikings, whether it's another team, you know, Baltimore's got to figure out what they're doing at the quarterback position.

• 1:51:37Bill Simmons?

  Loved him. He's one of the most popular Viking players that have ever passed through there.

• 1:51:41Speaker 02

  And he was playing the best football of his life in, what was it, 2022, before he tore the Achilles with Kevin O'Connell as his coach. I'm with you. They also have Carson Wentz, who they've seen function at a high level in the offense. I, I agree.

• 1:51:55Bill Simmons?

  I'm not as excited about that one.

• 1:51:57Speaker 02

  Well, here, here's what it comes down to. All right. What, what are you willing to pay for Kirk Cousins? Are you giving up a second round pick? Are you sending a first round pick for Kirk Cousins? I don't know why the Raiders would do it for less.

• 1:52:07Bill Simmons?

  I would do a third round pick guaranteed, and if I make round two of the playoffs, moves to a second. And that's what I would do. I think, I think team success, yeah, if we win the Super Bowl, now it's a first. Like, I think team success has to be tied to it in some way. But if I'm the Raiders, the only problem with the Raiders right now, they're, they play at San Francisco this weekend.

• 1:52:31Bill Simmons?

  Seattle home, at Denver, at Cleveland. So if you're like, "Okay, it's Mendoza time," and you do it, and his first three games are, yeah, his first three games are Seattle, at Denver, at Cleveland, that's a nightmare. So you'd have to, you'd have to factor that part in. Is that how you want to start this guy's career with those three games?

• 1:52:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, the readiness is a huge part of it. And I know Fernando does, like, he does extra meetings. He'd like, basically like shadows Kirk's reps on the field during practice. Like, he's not getting, he hasn't taken the first team reps hardly at all this year, like actually throwing to the receivers. And by the way, outside of Brock Bowers, who is a, obviously a massive problem solver for the offense, like, I don't know that their receiver group is really good. Like, Kirk is elevating everybody because he's so smart in the offense. In other words, for a young guy like Mendoza, he's got one safety blanket in Bowers, but like, you know, it's Trey Tucker and it's Jack Besh coming back off an injury. They're not running the football effectively. Like, that doesn't feel like a situation that's great to throw the rookie into. I don't think you can rule it out because somebody might go, "It's just worth it. We're going to take the shot."

• 1:53:34Speaker 02

  I mean, if Philly hadn't lost to Washington last week, I would have been like, "If they beat the Giants, why would they not go trade for Kirk? Plug him into the offense? Like, just get it going, get healthy, get the bond to get back and roll."

• 1:53:43Bill Simmons?

  This, though. It's beyond like the competitive and contending and all that stuff. Like, you have Jefferson, who you've covered his whole career. Not exactly a demonstrative sideline guy.

• 1:53:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:53:55Bill Simmons?

  And what, the way he was behaving during that game was like, "Oh shit, like this, they got to fix this now." And he's played with Kirk Cousins, so.

• 1:54:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, he, he's gone through a couple of years of this and, you know, just all the different quarterbacks and things. Now, Monday night against the Bills, like Kyler's got that hamstring. If I'm guessing here, uh, you know, six days out, I'd say Carson Wentz is starting that game, just because Kyler at less than 100% with a hamstring is not a guy I want on the field. So I wouldn't be surprised if we see Wentz this week. We might see him the following week.

• 1:54:24Bill Simmons?

  Wentz, Wentz does well in that game.

• 1:54:27Bill Simmons?

  You talk yourself into Wentz for the rest of the season. What's Carson Wentz going to do? Get hurt? Because he always gets hurt, right? So he gives you two games. Now I'm back with Kyler Murray, but the trade deadline's passed. And I've thrown away the season.

• 1:54:39Speaker 02

  And that's the whole thing. And there's nobody on the street. I mean, I don't, I don't really know that Jimmy Garoppolo is in shape or intends to continue playing.

• 1:54:47Bill Simmons?

  Tom Brady's back.

• 1:54:48Speaker 02

  Russell, Russell Wilson. I mean, it's, it's a pretty short list.

• 1:54:52Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:54:53Speaker 02

  Veteran quarterbacks out there, right? No, I'm, listen, I'm with you. Like I said, I anticipate that they are exploring all the options. It's just like, how big of an upgrade, outside of Kirk, who I do think is an upgrade, like Daniel Jones is the one that's come up a lot too. And I'm like, Daniel Jones threw for 56 fucking yards against the Vikings a couple of weeks ago, like.

• 1:55:10Bill Simmons?

  It's like his career's over.

• 1:55:12Speaker 02

  It, it's a, and he's coming off an Achilles. Like, that's a real thing. You give him $50 million this year. I mean, the Colts, the Colts have a, have a, you know, something to figure out with that too, because he's got an injury, uh, guarantee for 2027.

• 1:55:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's one other guy, though.

• 1:55:29Bill Simmons?

  What's the point in having Davis Mills?

• 1:55:33Speaker 02

  It was Nick Caserio's first ever draft pick and he has never wanted to let him go.

• 1:55:39Bill Simmons?

  CJ has answered all of my questions this year and they're obviously going to give him an extension. You're going to pay him a ton of money, but then also have one of the most expensive backup QBs in the league. And if, if Minnesota comes to me and, you know, is ready to give a third that turns into a second for a guy who, if he's playing, that means my season's over anyway. And my season might be over because I'm two and five. I don't know. I would think about it. And I think he's, I, I'd rather have Davis Mills than Kirk Cousins as well as Cousins play. I like Davis Mills.

• 1:56:09Speaker 02

  Davis Mills has some fans in the league too, in terms of when he's gotten his opportunities, how he operates that offense. It also feels, I mean, again, Nick has had trade offers for him basically his entire career. Is he, is he going to move him now at this point? I just, I don't know that he would do that. I mean, listen, there's other guys out there. I mean, if you're talking about who could the Ravens trade for it? Tyson Bajin's the obvious one because he was with Declan Doyle in Chicago last year. They were never going to be able to get him in for the Thursday night game because of the short week and he's in Seattle. But if you're trying to get somebody who's at least Sony can function in that offense, you go get him. Jacoby Brissette's now third string in Arizona, which if there were ever a blinking red light, we will unload this contract for nothing, please call us. That's probably it.

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  So there are some quarterbacks out there, but for like the style of play that Minnesota has, I, I'm with you. Kirk is the obvious one. I just don't know that they're going down that road.

• 1:57:01Bill Simmons?

  Last one, the Cowboys.

• 1:57:06Bill Simmons?

  I don't even know where you want to go with this, but let's make them the last one of the pick six.

• 1:57:12Speaker 02

  There is just this fragility to the entire organization and you feel it within the games. I think that it stems from Jerry being so public. You know at all times exactly how he feels because he's on the radio twice a week and he talks after the game and he'll do other interviews.

• 1:57:31Bill Simmons?

  And so the video of him walking down the runway sadly at the end of losses. Yeah. It feels like he's omnipresent.

• 1:57:36Speaker 02

  And then the gaggle of 50 reporters around him and then two days later at the crack of dawn, he's on local radio saying the exact opposite thing. I mean, today he was on the radio. I saw him was talking about how, you know, he was asked like, why, why don't you want to spend on coaches? And he went on this whole diatribe about, um, you know, there's no correlation whatsoever that you can find of the last 30 years of, of paying for coaches or having a bigger coaching staffs and winning, which I would say, wow, I think that we've seen if you compete for the, the hottest coaching candidate, by and large, there is a correlation. I mean, Ben Johnson was the coveted coaching candidate two years ago. He's turned that team around. Mike Vrabel was a highly coveted coaching candidate, turned that team around.

• 1:58:21Speaker 02

  Clint Kubiak was the young guy who was highly coveted and at least has the Raiders back to, you know, kind of a steady competence at this point. You know, Jerry, like, I think Brian Schottenheimer is a good lifetime football coach. Like he's a good dude and he's a good coach. But to say that there's no correlation, even going back to how that job was available in the first place. Jerry had cut staff with Mike McCarthy for years. There was one, there was one off season where he had Mike McCarthy get rid of like four or five guys on staff. And it was because we're spending too much on coaches. So then all of a sudden you shrink that down, you lose some of the core guys that are on the staff. Then in 2024, you know, that was a, it was a rough year. That was the year Dak got hurt.

• 1:59:03Speaker 02

  I think it was the hamstring and then, you know, so they, they finished like six, seven wins, whatever it was. But at the end of the year, Jerry and Mike meet for like three or four days. And at the end of it, like reviewing the team and like basically like how we're going together in the off season. Mike doesn't have a contract, but it gets to, all right, we're going to, you know, we're going to start working on the contract. Okay, great. Then like a day or two go by and there's nothing. And then finally Jerry calls Mike and goes, ah, I'm just not going to be able to pay you, uh, what you deserve. So we're moving on. Well, at this point, like the, the cycle is already underway. Jerry interviews like three people and promotes Brian Schottenheimer for, you know, probably half of what Mike McCarthy was making. You know, and again, this is not a, a shot at Shoddy, but like Mike's six and two in Pittsburgh right now with a team that nobody gave a chance.

• 1:59:48Speaker 02

  Like he's a good football coach. That costs money. So all of which is to say, like, I don't think that it's, you know, directly on, well, you hired Schottenheimer, you hired Christian Parker. But it's like, it's everything on down. You can see there's a collection of really talented parts in the building. Why don't they coalesce? Why are you in big moments? And you've got guys like, you know, Rashawn Gary or Demarvion Overshawn who are making like the critical mistakes. The defense was pretty good the first three quarters and all of a sudden Gardner Minshew goes in there and they fall apart and they completely defeat themselves. It just, you know, the,

• 2:00:22Bill Simmons?

  And they had the ball in overtime.

• 2:00:24Speaker 02

  Right. And they can't move it and Pickens is, you know, seems like he's, you know, not totally,

• 2:00:29Bill Simmons?

  You and I could have predicted the Pickens thing, right? They didn't take care of him. They tagged him.

• 2:00:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:00:36Bill Simmons?

  And that's, you know, that, that seemed like the wrong guy to do that. I guess my question with Jerry Jones. So he lavishly builds this stadium, right?

• 2:00:47Bill Simmons?

  Which was really ahead of the game. He put together the money to buy the team once upon a time. Like he's this maverick, like hard charging dude and then, but also seems like frugal at times. And if, and with the eight, I don't even know how old he is now at this point. Is he, he's in his eighties.

• 2:01:03Speaker 02

  Eighty-two, eighty-three, somewhere in there. Yeah.

• 2:01:05Bill Simmons?

  So I, I don't know how many years he has left, but, um, or how many years he has to be the competent owner.

• 2:01:11Speaker 02

  Eighty-four.

• 2:01:12Bill Simmons?

  Eighty-four. So you're, you're really in the tail end here. And if you're worried about money, sell off like 10% of the team to some VC or some rich dude. And that team's probably worth, I don't know, 14 billion, 15 billion with the way the prices are going. Sell off a piece of it and cash that money and be like, I, you know, I don't understand how you're cutting costs if you're him.

• 2:01:37Speaker 02

  The, the contradiction with Jerry though, is you're right. There, there are places he spends money, not just the stadium. But if you've ever walked into the facility, it's like chandeliers and marble floors. It's like totally over the top. He'll land his helicopter on the practice field during practice. Like it's, it's all, it's all the show and he's a brilliant businessman who's made a ton of money. Like that documentary on the Cowboys, the episode about Jerry is, is extremely entertaining. It's just that when it comes to coaching, he has never believed that coaches matter. You can go all the way back to the rift with Jerry Jones, three decades, or excuse me, with Jimmy Johnson, three decades ago.

• 2:02:11Bill Simmons?

  Parcells was the only time, right? When he was like, oh shit, maybe I got this coaching thing wrong. I'm going to spend on Parcells, but he never won with them.

• 2:02:19Speaker 02

  And, and even then, you know, you come back and then look at through the years and, you know, the long period of time with Jason Garrett, who was, you know, kind of like, you have good seasons and you have a bunch of average seasons. And, you know, Wade Phillips was there for a while. Um, you know, with Mike McCarthy, that was, Dave Campo, that's right. I mean, you got all kinds of, you know, different coaches who have been through there, but like, why is that where you draw the line? He's got the quote, if you remember, and I think it was, was it the C.D. Lamb deal? It was one of their big contracts that they got done after, you know, way too long, right? It might've been Dak after, you know, franchise tag and everything. He said like, there's nothing, uh, in my life that I wanted that I haven't overpaid for. I'm always willing to wait longer, even if it means overpaying. So he overpays for players where there is a salary cap.

• 2:03:04Speaker 02

  And he doesn't pay market value for coaches where there is no salary cap. If he devoted, I'm not saying money fixes every problem. But Bill, like if you go back 10 to 15 years, Bill Belichick was by far the highest paid coach in the NFL. He was the only guy who was making like clear eight figures. About three quarters of the coaches in the NFL now make 10 million plus. That's just where it is. Why? Because teams have realized like, all right, there's only a limited number of guys. It's like quarterbacks in the draft. A couple go in the first, nobody else goes to the fourth. If you want that guy in that year, you're going to have to pay because that's just the competition level. First time head coaches now are getting 12, 13 million dollars a year.

• 2:03:47Speaker 02

  Which again, is more than Belichick was making at the height of the Patriots Super Bowl years.

• 2:03:51Bill Simmons?

  College, that's the price for if you want one of the best guys, you're in eight figures a year now.

• 2:03:55Speaker 02

  Right. And Jerry has basically adopted the stance of like, I'm just not going to compete. You know, even Mike McCarthy, um, you know, he had a couple of interviews. The Jets were also still trying to get him in, but Jerry just kind of sold him on, you know, Dallas. And then, you know, he, he paid him probably at the, you know, the lower end of what Mike McCarthy, you know, would have been making from another team. And then, you know, to invite, fire his staff. You're hiring people, you know, to be coordinators because they just got fired by somebody else. You don't have to pay them much money. It's just, it's that part of it. And again, I don't put that on, it's Schottenheimer and it's, it's Christian Parker. But it goes to this overall fragile state of everything, which is you're willing to pay and you're willing to collect the players and bring them all in.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  And then things just have this habit of coming unglued. And I think that there's really something to that. It's the overall environment where everything seems so emotional surrounding the Cowboys, that it's hard just to block all that stuff out in critical moments within the season or within a game. And time and again, teams that they should beat, like the Bucks at home, like the Cardinals at home, they're finding ways to give away these games. And now in a wide open NFC East, you're like, I, I don't know, even if they manage to win this division, how dangerous they actually are.

• 2:05:12Bill Simmons?

  And it's a 12 month spotlight. You're on ESPN and any other place, every NFL podcast all the time. Cause there's just more interest in the Cowboys than any other team, basically. And then everybody gets their hopes up in July and August. I picked them. I picked them to win the NFC East this year. I thought they'd win 10 plus games. I thought they were going to be good. And then obviously that's not happening. Um, but.

• 2:05:35Speaker 02

  But talented enough, it's just, you're, you're in a hole now, you know, you're three and five and you're about to play the Colts. Team you should, you should beat handily. They're walking in the door, ready to quit. Um, you know, you lose this game and you're three and six. To me, that's a, we need to sell.

• 2:05:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're a cross.

• 2:05:51Speaker 02

  We, we break it off and, and go and, and trade parts. I just don't know. Even in that division, like what you're playing for at this point, you know, we'll see how it goes against Indiana.

• 2:05:59Bill Simmons?

  Hey, this is almost three and a half decades now of him owning an NFL team unsuccessfully. So at some point, everything can change around it, but at some point you got to look at the guy. There you go. All right. That was pick six. Tom Pelissero. Check him out on the sweep. This weekend releases on Saturday morning. Great newsletter plus on the Ringer NFL show. Good to see you. Kirk Cousins to the Vikings. Make it happen. Make some calls.

• 2:06:23Speaker 02

  See where we're at by Saturday in the sweep.

• 2:06:25Bill Simmons?

  All right. Good to see you.

• 2:06:26Speaker 02

  Thanks, Bill.

• 2:06:28Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kirk and Tom. Thanks to Gahow and Eduardo and Chris and Jack and everybody at Spotify as well. New rewatchables is up. Go check it out. All the right moves. I hope you enjoy the rest of the day. Please vote.

• 2:06:45Bill Simmons?

  And I hope everybody stays safe and happy this week. And I'll see you on Thursday.

• 2:07:10Bill Simmons?

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• 2:08:00Bill Simmons?

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