Jenny Taitz (on stress resets)

Jenny Taitz (Stress Resets, How to Be Single and Happy) is a licensed clinical psychologist, best-selling author, and assistant clinical professor in psychiatry at UCLA. Jenny joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the initial modalities that inspired her to become a psychologist, turning knots in our stomach into bows, and tells a true tragedy of spilt milk that drives her therapeutic practices. Jenny and Dax talk about the most effective formula for saying no, how we can manage our emotions by noticing how we co-create them, and why singing your anxieties to the tune of “Do You Believe in Magic” is a great mind reset. Jenny explains how stress can actually be an incredibly useful tool, how to turn Dax and Monica into world-class ex-ruminators, and her goal to widen the space Victor Frankel suggests in "Man’s Search for Meaning." Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Ms. Monica Padman.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:06Dax Shepard?

  Hi, Ms. Monica.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:08Dax Shepard?

  Hi, Mom. How are you doing today?

• 0:10Speaker 01

  You know, somebody made an Instagram.

• 0:13Dax Shepard?

  I sent it to you.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Yes, Hermium's Instagram, his own Instagram.

• 0:16Dax Shepard?

  And I think in the description, it says you're his mom.

• 0:20Dax Shepard?

  I want to applaud whoever made that. Big high five to whoever grabbed Hermium Permium. I hope he has like a million followers by tomorrow. Okay, our guest today is Dr. Jenny Tates, who is a clinical psychologist, clinical professor in psychiatry at UCLA and bestselling author. She has a couple of great books, How to Be Single and Happy and Emotional Eating. Her new book, which is out currently, is Stress Resets: How to Soothe Your Body and Mind in Minutes.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  This was helpful. I think this is a great one for the top of the year.

• 0:57Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no kidding. Yeah.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Get people in a routine. I feel like when we're overwhelmed now, we turn to a lot of outward sources to help us. And this was very encouraging that you can look, you can turn inward.

• 1:10Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and she took us to task in a great way.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14Dax Shepard?

  And had a lot of recommendations for us personally.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16Dax Shepard?

  Which we needed.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17Dax Shepard?

  So please enjoy Dr. Jenny Tates. We get support from Quince.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself, because let's be honest, self-gifting is a love language.

• 1:42Dax Shepard?

  Quince is seriously the gift that keeps on giving. Their high-quality staples are made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. Full-on luxury quality at prices that won't wreck your holiday budget.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  It's the dream. The cashmere sweater, starting at $60, down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories. You and everyone on your list are staying cozy and looking incredible all season long.

• 2:10Dax Shepard?

  Say this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California and I'm so excited. And I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 2:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here and it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.

• 2:44Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. Oh, the Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Medium Fries and a drink is now $8.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  What?

• 3:16Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I need to talk about something that doesn't get enough respect. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese. This is not a casual burger. This is a crafted burger. We're talking 100% fresh beef, cooked right when you order it. No artificial flavors, no fillers, no preservatives, just beef doing what beef is supposed to do. And here's a detail I love. There's a cowbell sound in the kitchen. When somebody orders a Quarter Pounder with Cheese, a cowbell goes off and the grill master throws a fresh patty down. That's like having your own entrance music at McDonald's. I want a cowbell for everything in life. The onions are hand-topped by someone who just knows the right amount. Two slices of cheese laid out in a star pattern, so every single bite gets cheese. And two pickles side by side, so you're never in a pickle desert.

• 4:00Dax Shepard?

  Every bite is accounted for. Someone engineered this thing with love. I love a Quarter Pounder.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Me too. That's my order. It's a Quarter Pounder with cheese. I love it. I didn't know they put so much effort that they did a star formation. I should have known because you can taste it.

• 4:17Dax Shepard?

  You can taste it. Yeah, the love. Don't tell anyone this, but I'll put two of them back.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22Dax Shepard?

  I'm sitting.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  I'm not surprised.

• 4:24Dax Shepard?

  The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Fries and a Drink, now $8 for a limited time only. Only at McDonald's. For a limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California, and for delivery. Fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery.

• 4:58Dax Shepard?

  You have your own coffee shop, I see. Leora?

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Matcha.

• 5:02Dax Shepard?

  That's a matcha.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  That's a matcha, pistachio milk.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 5:05Dax Shepard?

  Pistachio milk. Tell me about pistachio milk.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  I discovered it at Leora.

• 5:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Not too sweet, but a little like nutty.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay, I'll give it a whirl.

• 5:17Dax Shepard?

  Do you have a preferred nut milk?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  You know what?

• 5:19Dax Shepard?

  That's a naughty sounding sentence, by the way.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  It is.

• 5:22Dax Shepard?

  It sounds terrible.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Ew.

• 5:23Dax Shepard?

  I know, I'm sorry.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  I'm back on whole milk.

• 5:25Dax Shepard?

  There you go.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  I reverted back, get that calcium.

• 5:29Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  I used to think it affected my skin. It didn't affect either way, so I went back and I like it.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 5:35Dax Shepard?

  Is pistachio not your favorite?

• 5:37Speaker 02

  No, I usually do La Colombe with a little bit of Laird. Do you know Laird?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  The non-dairy creamer.

• 5:43Dax Shepard?

  Is it by Laird Hamilton?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:45Dax Shepard?

  Is it mushroom based?

• 5:46Speaker 02

  No idea, but it's great. I like that. There's like different flavors. Not too into the seasonal ones, like they have Mocha Mint, but they have like plain, a little cardamom plain.

• 5:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. He's a special dude, Laird Hamilton.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  You know him, right?

• 5:59Dax Shepard?

  I just met him for the first time the other day, but we were right behind he and his wife. I think her and Kristen were having a moment where they're very much married to kind of old fashioned-y guys in some way. I don't know how to phrase that, but she said, listen, I like his vibe. He'll say to me in the kitchen, it's gonna be okay? It is okay. That's like his big saying to her.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  That.

• 6:18Dax Shepard?

  Isn't that great?

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, really, everything is okay because what other option is there?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Think good and it'll be good.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. These are all the topics we're gonna get into. Yeah, he's like tapped into some kind of primitive way we were living that seems to be yielding positive results, like stay very active, stay physically.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Eat well.

• 6:36Dax Shepard?

  Eat good and everything will work out. There's some genius to that. Okay, let's start with the fact that you teach at my alma mater. Do you like it there?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  I do. I teach psychiatry residents how to do cognitive behavioral therapies that I specialize in. So it's super cool. We actually do a group where we have a dozen people on a Zoom. And it doesn't matter if you have social anxiety, general anxiety, PTSD, the treatment is the same. And so it's awesome because people can come in with social anxiety, OCD, major depression, and still get significantly better in a matter of weeks.

• 7:10Dax Shepard?

  It's a cure all. It works for everything.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  It works for anxiety and depression.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Anxiety disorders and depression.

• 7:15Dax Shepard?

  I think the first fun thing, I know what CBT is, and I think a lot of people in the audience will know, but I think maybe we should just delineate the difference between like, say, psychoanalysis and CBT. And then you have a second kind of specialization that I hadn't heard of, and I want you to tell me about that one as well.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Sure. So it's interesting. I went to graduate school all hyped up. I'm like, I can't believe you can get paid to talk to people and like, there's a science to it and you could move the needle and people can get better. And then I did all these things to kind of test the waters to see before you go to grad school for six years, do you like this?

• 7:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  And I started volunteering at the Suicide Prevention Center and literally the first call I got there, someone was listening in to see how I feel to the questions. And I had done all sorts of training through them. And then the final step in the training is this test call. And this woman, she was 14 years old. She had already taken a bottle of pills and was sounding pretty loopy on the call. And during our call, I'm trying to talk to her, someone starts banging on the door. My supervisor, who was listening on the call, had called an ambulance and the girl was pissed.

• 8:17Dax Shepard?

  She felt betrayed?

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it gave me this sense of, I really wanted a career that not only saved lives, but made lives worth living. And I was super stoked. And then I went to NYU. It was really cool. I majored in psychology and social work and doing the social work bachelor's allowed me to literally I would be wearing my college clothes and then grabbing my Bellevue ID. I literally had the opportunity to be a therapist at Bellevue.

• 8:41Dax Shepard?

  Okay, and so this is kind of a famous institution, yeah, Bellevue. You hear about people getting sent to Bellevue in movies.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Bellevue at that time, I don't think it's currently there, but Bellevue had a floor in a men's homeless shelter for men who were substance abusing, struggling with mental illness and homeless. And so I got to do that. And between the Suicide Prevention Center, most people were happy for that help there and working with people that were really struggling with a lot of complex problems. I was like, I want to be a psychologist. It's gonna be amazing. And then I get to grad school and I'm like, oh my God, these people are kind of weird. I don't want to be anything like these professors. These professors seemed super socially anxious. They didn't really have like a clear way to define when someone would be ready to graduate treatment or how many sessions it would take. And so this is kind of a way of getting back to this question of the difference between psychoanalysis and CBT.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  And I think a lot of people misunderstand that CBT is just kind of playing whack a mole on a problem.

• 9:36Dax Shepard?

  I've heard psychoanalysts describe it that way.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  I see CBT as really helping someone both look in the rearview mirror. Can you look at what in your past has led to this moment? But also a huge premium on understanding your current mental habits and loops and understanding the process through which we struggle. And there's kind of a systematic way to measure change and there's a lot of skill building. So the idea is that we have 400 emotions a day, 6,000 thoughts at least a day, 20,000 breaths a day. Do we have a structure in place to navigate those? I'm all for therapy, but I also don't know if a therapeutic relationship is the way that I see a person transforming their life.

• 10:14Dax Shepard?

  Being broken. I think it's unfortunate they're kind of pitted against each other because I don't think that's really necessary because I definitely see the value of CBT. Have a toolkit and have some actionable things you can do. And then also I think it's very worthwhile of understanding how one ended up in a position where they need these tools.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  And I think good CBT does both. My goal as a CBT therapist is I care about your time. I care about your money. Let's do this. Let's graduate. Let's keep in touch. Come visit me for spot treatments, but go live your best life.

• 10:44Dax Shepard?

  Monica and I have talked about this a lot. There is this very nebulous zone where you're like, am I ready to quit this?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:51Dax Shepard?

  Or not. And then you're fearful if you stop psychoanalysis, somehow you're gonna revert or some. It's a very ambiguous conclusion, I can admit.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like saying, I'm stopping therapy, it feels arrogant to say that.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  I love that. That's my goal.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I also love thinking flex. I mean, I want to just say that there are so many psychoanalysts that are totally brilliant and I have so much respect.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  We love Orna.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  So much respect for them.

• 11:17Dax Shepard?

  We're so in love with Orna.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  We do love Orna.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  I need to watch that show. I'm like very bad at TV.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  I wonder what you'd think, though, coming from inside.

• 11:26Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm gonna make a very bold prediction is I think you'd come into it feeling the way you would feel. And then I do think you would watch Orna do some stuff that is absolutely mind blowing and so worthwhile. And then some level of empathy and optimism I've never seen anyone really display. That's very impressive.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  And you'd probably also have your own ideas about the couples and how you might wanna talk to them.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  I don't do couples therapy. So that on its own is super fascinating.

• 11:52Dax Shepard?

  I would imagine you can do CBT for couples.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Totally. I target a lot of what someone would want to work on in their marriage, one on one.

• 11:58Dax Shepard?

  Yes. And then what's the second thing?

• 12:01Speaker 02

  DBT is the second thing. So dialectical behavior therapy.

• 12:04Dax Shepard?

  What is that?

• 12:05Speaker 02

  It's a newer treatment that was developed in the 90s by Marsha Linehan, who is a professor emeritus at University of Washington. And she herself had struggled a great deal early in her life. She came out at the end of her career saying that she felt like she needed to share with her patients. It was actually insane. She went to this hospital that she was hospitalized in herself and told her story. And that place was like windowless and depressing and horrible aggressive treatments when she was a patient there. And the unit that she was on, it gives me the chills talking about it, is now a DBT unit.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Which teaches mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness, how to be more effective in relationships. Ask for what you want, say no while maintaining self-respect and building relationships. Relationships, emotion regulation, learning to kind of be able to dim down your emotions. So they don't feel like they're on an on off switch and be able to act independent of how you feel. So if you're like super mad, can you still be nice to your kid? If that's in the service of your value. And then distress tolerance, how to survive a crisis without making things worse. And so DBT is an awesome treatment that is the gold standard in suicide prevention, but has now been found helpful well beyond that population to treat other difficult to treat problems like substance use.

• 13:17Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so it started there and then because of its efficacy, it's now being applied to other places. Okay, so your book is called Stress Resets: How to Soothe Your Body and Mind in Minutes. Where to start? I think maybe let's just kind of define stress. I think that too could be an ambiguous word. Some people would call some things stress that aren't and other things that are not. What would we say stress is?

• 13:41Speaker 02

  So stress is this mismatch between your demands, what you're facing and your resources. And so it's one of those moments when you think it's too much, I can't. And so much of stress is really subjective. The thing that's interesting to think about with that is if you have stress and believe stress is bad for you, that actually increases your risk of dying from stress related causes. And so I wouldn't get too down on your body's stress response. That's actually a huge part of what I want to share is if you normalize, like it makes sense that I have stress in my life. If you don't have stress, your life would probably be pretty shitty and boring.

• 14:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. There's also a tremendous amount of benefits associated with the stress response, right? Your immune system improves. There's a lot of things that your body is readying itself to take on a challenge.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, so if you combine seeing stress is like the price of a meaningful life and your body's stress response is serving you butterflies, it's like oxygen helping you improve performance. At risk youth that are on their way to college that are taught that stress is okay. Everyone feels stressed, stress is something you can deal with.

• 14:40Dax Shepard?

  It's adaptive, not maladaptive.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, with the right supports, you're not alone. You have nothing to be ashamed of. And what your body's doing in those stressful moments is actually helpful, not shameful. One of my favorite papers on the topic is called Turning Your Knots Into Boats, literally teaching people that the knots in their stomach are actually bows, improves their performance. Like the GRE.

• 14:59Dax Shepard?

  I can feel it. I always say this when we do live shows, it's like all of that stress for me, because I trust it now, converts immediately into like improved cognition. I can think quicker. You know, I'm more agile and luckily, because it hasn't gone bad a bunch. I associate that feeling, at least before I walk out on a stage, it's like, oh, good, my superpower has arrived.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  That's amazing because that's totally different than what happens to most people is you have a stressful event. I think as people were masterful at something stressful happens and we multiply it, we think the worst, take something ambiguous and make it 10 times worse.

• 15:38Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  And then that obviously does a number to your body. And then the combination of your mind and body, feeling like they're rebelling against you, does not put you in a good position to deal with the demands in your life.

• 15:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I don't want to prevent you from framing it in a positive way, but I also think there's some other fun physiological things that are happening. When your stress is increasing dramatically, we know that the areas of your brain that are working are also changing, right? You're probably living in your amygdala when you're at peak stress, whereas you'd hopefully want to be in your frontal lobe, making some executive decisions and putting a plan in place. But just this thinking itself is in a different region if you succumb to that.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. And that's why I teach all sorts of ways to get kind of out of emotion mind and more into a reasonable mind or wise mind.

• 16:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  I don't want to minimize. Stress is very real and a lot of us are feeling super stressed these days. But how do we stop ruminating, which is one of the trans diagnostic, like a cross diagnoses? This is one of the things we target in my group and we deal with in DBT. But how do we target overthinking? Something happened for two minutes and you could be playing it 20 hours later. And this is insane, but if you're asked in a lab where there's all sorts of physiological measures hooked up to you about the worst thing that ever happened to you, your body literally re-experiences it, even if the person that did it to you is dead. And I know you had Sepulsky on here, like, how do we break free of overthinking? This is why zebras don't get ulcers.

• 16:59Dax Shepard?

  I'm a great ruminator.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 17:02Dax Shepard?

  I'm a world-class ruminator.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  And in Intro to Psych, I was like, this is me. This fed into why I got into. The mindfulness based therapies that I practiced because I was like, this actually works for me. And I thought that this was just who I was.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  By the end of this, I want you to be a world-class ex-ruminator.

• 17:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I would send you Christmas gifts for life.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  No, no, we're doing it. We're doing it.

• 17:22Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that is.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  This is so exciting.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Do you also ruminate?

• 17:26Speaker 01

  So much.

• 17:27Dax Shepard?

  That's probably the glue that binds us.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  We're gonna do it. I just want everyone to hear me out. Anything I say is not something that I randomly thought about this morning at like a gym class. It's based on many research papers. The resources are extensive. So we can talk through it all. And you could tell me what you think would work.

• 17:43Dax Shepard?

  Great, because I want to know if there's papers on this, like durineal versus nocturnal rumination. My nocturnal rumination is its own thing, or feels like its own thing. Like in the daytime, I think I have a lot of tools and I employ them pretty well. But I wake up at 3 a.m. And I am fucking defenseless. I'm even saying to myself, this is madness. You won't care in the morning. Zero impact on the rumination. But we'll get to that. We'll get to the treatment that's coming our way. But there's a couple of things that you lay out in the intro that I think are worth repeating, which is you give these great examples of your husband, Adam, right? Go ahead. He's in the kitchen one morning.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  In the kitchen one morning, rushing before work. And we have a small child. We have three small children, but one is the smallest. And he spills literally a gallon of milk on the floor. And Adam likes to make sure that things are properly cleaned. And so he starts aggressively trying to clean up the milk in such a way that he ends up cutting his hand.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  On the kick plate of the bottom of the fridge. And then we didn't have any bandages in the house. So then he runs to the local CVS, busy with the baby at that time. And I also am not quite sure this merits a CVS visit.

• 18:48Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure. That's a side note. That'd be good with a couples therapy.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  And the great thing about Adam is he came home from this and he was like laughing with my laughter. Okay, so he goes to CVS to get a bandage and some Neosporin and gets into a fender bender.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Stop.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  And like, most of life is not spilled milk. And I just want to double down on life is really hard. And I don't want to minimize. And I've certainly been through hard things myself. But the fact that we can go from spilled milk to cutting your hand to a fender bender, and thank God it was just a fender bender, is mind blowing. And at the same time, I have had these things myself, like I was stressed postpartum. This was the second kid. I'm like picking at my nail and thinking I have no time. I have to pump. I have to get to work. I have a book deadline. I'm out of time. And then I give myself a treatment resistant infection.

• 19:35Dax Shepard?

  From biting her nails.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Literally it was like picking my nail. Your immune system is down, apparently when you're nursing. And so my friend's a doctor. They're like, you have abscess. You need to like go to the ER. Stop infection or something weird. And then I'm like, okay, so I'm sitting in Cedars ER for like six hours. And I'm like, I thought I had no time and now I really have no time. But we're specialists at doing this to ourselves. And to your earlier point, when we're stressed, the emotional parts of our brain is on fire. But people are also remarkably good at getting better with the right tools. If I had just slowed down and noticed, okay, there's the urge to pick up my nail, I could do something instead.

• 20:08Dax Shepard?

  I like those examples because it's an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Because I think a lot of people's pushback will immediately be, and mine is initially, I don't have time to add something to my plate, right? Like, I don't want to do any mindful practice or I don't want to stop for five minutes in the middle of this experience to check in and use some of the tools. I don't have the five minutes to do that. But I would just argue that nine times out of 10, it's going to cost you far more time. Cause they do, they just compound and then, not to out my wife, but I watch my wife in the kitchen frazzle. Then yes, she's moving too fast because she feels like she's having a, now we've got a spilt thing. And I'm just watching from the sidelines going like, oh, there's just a tornado of things now cascading.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Or you have like an issue at work and then you're an asshole at home. And then that's like, let's just make your whole life terrible.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Now everything's bad. Both of us are bad.

• 20:53Dax Shepard?

  Almost all of us. We have some really counterproductive responses to stress. So people that are tied on money may find themselves overspending as the result of that. Or they have a big deadline and then the response is procrastination or trying to perfect the thing they have the deadline about. Or you're feeling anxious and you start researching this and hyper focusing on it. And now you're in panic. So a lot of the ways we deal with this, is that what, it's you?

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's everyone. With WebMD, everyone's an expert now on every single thing that's wrong with them. And you just go immediate to panic. I do panic a lot.

• 21:31Dax Shepard?

  I was gonna say, we could only fix you.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Panic. No, no, no, no, seriously. Nothing makes me more excited. This is my Christmas gift. Like, I feel like you're giving me a Christmas gift. Another thing that is on the list of things that backfire that was the impetus for writing this book is so many people, especially people that are lucky enough to get help, 30 million Americans take benzodiazepines.

• 21:51Dax Shepard?

  So here's where you and I are perfectly aligned. And I can already tell you what the comments are gonna be. People are gonna yell at me and go, "It saved my life. Lay off benzos." I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the person. No, I need to yell at them. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the person that, as we describe this, you know in your head, "I could probably get through this without this." It is a huge epidemic no one wants to talk about. And in your book, 93 million prescriptions for benzos a year in this country. So yes, a lot of people need them. They are saving some people's lives. They're also dramatically overprescribed. And there's a huge cadre of people who are addicted to them. I've watched people get sober for 20 years. It is one of the gnarliest things to get off of. Your brain chemistry is so altered for so long. You could be smoking crack for a year straight. After 30 days of sobriety, you'll be pretty back to normal.

• 22:35Dax Shepard?

  I've seen benzo addicts take a year to return. I'm so pro-drugs, do MDMA, go do mushrooms, but that one, you really look out for.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm happy to talk a little bit about what my issues are with it specifically. So, I mean, a few things. The first thing to realize is, do you know about their history? Like, how they were developed? They were testing antibiotics, basically, and they noticed that mice on the verge of being electrocuted were acting passively when they were given this compound. And so, I don't know about you, but if I was about to be electrocuted, I would like to be. I'd like to be on high-threat alert. And so, then Arthur Sackler of The Opioid Crisis started marketing these to women in the 1950s.

• 23:15Dax Shepard?

  It was Mother's Little Helper.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  It was the

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Sacklers? Yeah.

• 23:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they've got a rich history.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't know about you, but I don't think a pill is a cure for an unsatisfying life. And my goal wouldn't be to like be drugged into submission if my days are dissatisfying. I also just think it's interesting that when you need to be your sharpest, when you're stressed and you need to have your full brain to solve problems in front of you, you're taking something.

• 23:38Dax Shepard?

  I'm moving through the world. I'm seeing tons of people really fucked up on benzos that I don't think most people are picking up on.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Well, the thing that breaks my heart, Doc, is that so many of my patients come to me not realizing that there were other options. I love people and I think people are amazing, but these people seem like they might have had a brain injury sometimes. People that are incredibly privileged that keep going up on the dose because like a concierge physician is willing to keep you habituate to it and you need to keep raising the dose.

• 24:03Dax Shepard?

  Both things are true. You're abusing it more and you're building a tolerance.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and like you, I believe, of course, if you need this, take, you know, a patient of mine was like, I feel so bad. I have to take this. I'm finding out tomorrow if this ailment is terminal or not. I'm like, oh, my goodness, for me, like to tell you what to do.

• 24:16Dax Shepard?

  I think there's some acute use, which is great.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  One cool thing for people that are listening that are thinking, I tried to detox once and it was hell. I don't know if this is anecdotal or larger, but I've had a couple of clients recently that are taking drugs like GLP-1s and finding that their detox is going a little bit better on the benzo.

• 24:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so that for people who don't know, GLP-1s are Ozempic, all the semaglutides.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  And one person that has tried that I'm thinking of in particular, he was on like six milligrams and really his whole life was on hold. Like, yeah, okay, your body is not stressed, but you're not able to get a job.

• 24:47Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's cool that that's helping because they're starting to really look into those GLP-1s for addiction. I'm very encouraged by it.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  I'm not a psychiatrist, so I can't say for sure, but this person has found that really helpful. And so one of the things, coming back to you, Sely, that brought me into writing this book was a colleague of mine, a psychiatry resident, Neil Hoffman, was saying in the peak of COVID, when people were super stressed, like, hey, did you see this new paper that found that this song called Waitlist was found by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania to reduce anxiety before surgery, almost to the same effect as a benzo. And I was like, what? That's crazy. Listening to a song for five minutes, actually, the song is so relaxing.

• 25:23Dax Shepard?

  What's the song?

• 25:24Speaker 02

  It's called Waitlist. This is what I play for my kids if they're not going to sleep.

• 25:28Dax Shepard?

  What a hack.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  You could do that for your middle of the night. Oh, it might.

• 25:31Dax Shepard?

  Help, yeah. I use a book on tape to get out of it, but yes.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  It just opened my mind that there's so many things we don't realize that are free of side effects. We live in this world where it's like the fancier the better, but like there's simple things.

• 25:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so people love this quote. I'm gonna read it again. It bears reading Victor Frankel, Holocaust survivor, psychiatrist. What's his great book? He's got a great book.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Man's Search for Meaning.

• 25:51Dax Shepard?

  The quote is, "Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space lies our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and freedom." And the goal of your book is to widen that space?

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's so many things we could do moment to moment to make it a little easier. Maybe when emotions are super high, you can't do the hardest thing, but you could do something like relax your face, which automatically signals to your brain that I need to stop judging and thinking this is the worst. And then that maybe allows you to find your breath and then maybe you could do the next thing. And there's all these things you could stack together.

• 26:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, the first part of the book is called befriending stress. And we're kind of already been dancing around it, right? Which is a bit of reframing or really coming to see it as something useful for you. And one was the not to the bow. Do you want to elaborate on that at all?

• 26:41Speaker 02

  If we could really normalize that our body's serving us and we don't need to judge it and we don't need to be ashamed of it, then it automatically stops the cycle of your body does something, your mind makes it worse, your body then gets worse and then it's a tornado.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  I also think of stress as being a good indicator. If I'm feeling the physicality of stress or anxiety, it makes me think what's going on in my life that is causing it to then address that. If you look at it as, oh, it's actually telling me something, then I think that's a smart way of embracing stress and saying that, oh, actually, so I need to look at what's going on.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  I love that. And I think you could also swap the word stress for emotions. Like this is also so relevant with emotions or people judge their emotions and then judge their body's emotional response, but you could use the two synergistically.

• 27:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, how do we regulate our emotions?

• 27:30Speaker 02

  So many ways to regulate our emotions. I keep coming back to this three-part sequence of our thoughts, our physical sensations and our behaviors. So if you dissect an emotion into like its fundamental and Ingredients, it's thoughts, physical sensations, behavior. So it's like you go to sleep and you start telling yourself, I need to go to sleep two hours ago because I have this important meeting tomorrow morning. That is going to make you feel probably more tense and revved up. And then who wouldn't start scrolling on their phone? And so just noticing like, what is the arc of my emotions? What are the ingredients that are creating anxiety for me in this moment or sadness? Sadness doesn't just happen to you. We co-create sadness. We think sad thoughts. We act in ways that perpetuate sadness.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  But if we can take a step back and notice that our minds are full of like spam. A lot of the content in our mind is not necessarily useful or true. And if we choose our behaviors, like it sounds very simplistic, but behavioral activation, like helping people create a schedule that's full of activities that are pleasant and also give you a sense of accomplishment. You don't just want to be sitting around basking in the sun. You also don't just want to be on the Stairmaster for hours. You need like a good mix of activities. But doing that works as well as antidepressants for a major to moderate depression. And I'm not against antidepressants, but I just want people to have a whole host of things. So we manage our emotions by noticing how we're co-creating them and changing our behaviors in response to them. And so one of my favorite tools all around, regardless of the emotion,

• 28:54Speaker 02

  is the skill opposite action because any emotion you want to change, you're angry at someone and the intensity isn't helpful for the situation or it's not in line with your values, giving them the benefit of the doubt and being a little nice. I mean, we think that acting angrily is somehow cathartic, but that's actually pumping up anger. That's what I would do as a couples therapist or what I do with my individual clients. You hate your spouse and you want to criticize them endlessly and be aggressive. Can we try to think about something with a more generous interpretation? And plan like a secret carrying gesture, like can you get this awesome coffee for the person? And not have any expectations or start counting like I did this.

• 29:29Dax Shepard?

  If I'm understanding this correctly, it's almost like you want to reverse the order of events. So you're saying normally you have an emotion, stress or whatever the thing is you're ruminating on. And then you start thinking about it. Your body has all these sensations. It starts responding. In the worst case, it's like getting into fight or fight. And then a behavior results from that sensation because you want to soothe yourself. So you pull out your phone and you start scrolling or you pull out your weed pipe and you take a hit or you do whatever thing. You go shopping. It's almost as if- I'm not. So it's almost as if, if you're more thoughtful about putting your behavior first, then that almost reverse engineers itself. It goes in the other directions. Like I did

• 30:12Dax Shepard?

  something pleasurable that had some purpose and some community and some communication, and then my body felt calm and relaxed, and then my thoughts were better.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, both things are true. It's stress is like that cycle, but our emotions, the behavior that we're engaging in is creating the emotion as well. And so if I feel really ashamed, that's not just out of nowhere. It's thinking thoughts about not being enough and then acting in ways that are hiding. You go to the party and you're on your phone the whole time, no one's gonna talk to you, then you really feel like

• 30:40Dax Shepard?

  They become self fulfilling.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so our response to our emotion amplifies that emotion, but also our response creates the emotion.

• 30:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh, what a wicked cycle.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  I think a lot of people have this idea that just changing your behavior isn't really gonna do much, that it's superficial. And I just want to say a couple of things. We do this all the way. And so it's not like I'm being nice and thinking resentful thoughts. It's like all the way. And it's not just helping this moment, but if I have negative core beliefs, if I have beliefs from my childhood that I'm not lovable, the only way to change those beliefs is to transcend them with my behavior, to create a new narrative. And so this isn't just, oh, right now I'm like acting opposite, or as some of my clients would say, like the George Costanza approach. It's like, no, actually, you're creating a new reality and feeling like you have agency in your life.

• 31:20Dax Shepard?

  Again, you just mentioned two more AA things. It's easier to act your way into thinking differently than thinking your way into acting differently. And that is so fucking true. Your brain sometimes will catch up with your actions. And then you want self-esteem, do esteemable acts.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  I love AA. I don't know if you're allowed to do this, but when I was working at the Bellevue thing, I used to go to meetings there.

• 31:40Dax Shepard?

  Well, there's open meetings.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  I dragged a client there also. And I was like, this is so great. He was looking at me like, we're leaving. I'm like, no, no, no, we're staying. We're staying as long as this goes. I hope this goes for hours.

• 31:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Do you trip out at all? A lot of it is CBT that they didn't know was CBT. Okay. So let's talk about resets. So you have mind resets, body resets, and behavior resets. So how would these work?

• 32:01Speaker 02

  The notion of a book on stress is such an irony, because who has time to read when they feel like they don't have a minute? And so the book is almost like a cookbook. Resets is kind of the equivalent of urgent care, what to do in this moment if you feel really flooded. And if your problem in this moment is your mind is really ruminating or doing those things. We have mind resets, we have body resets, which will also help your mind. And then behavior resets to change your behavior.

• 32:25Dax Shepard?

  Give me an example of a mind reset.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  A mind reset is even just singing your thoughts. So we all have thoughts, like I said, that are more like spam, that are just simply unhelpful. And 90% of people report having intrusive unwanted thoughts. So if you have a repeated unwanted thought, like I'm a loser because I don't have plans on Saturday night. Not a super helpful thought to think. And so if you could sing that

• 32:45Dax Shepard?

  Ooh.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Thought to the tune of Do You Believe in Magic? It automatically loses its grip.

• 32:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, well, because it's silly.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  You guys have to sing.

• 32:52Dax Shepard?

  I don't have plans on Saturday.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  No, I'm a loser, I'm a loser.

• 32:55Dax Shepard?

  I'm a piece of shit. Okay. Takes away its power.

• 33:01Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. We get support from No Bull. The holidays can get hectic. You finally hit a post summer routine and suddenly you're on hosting duty every week.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  That's when you really need to ground yourself.

• 33:20Dax Shepard?

  Exactly. And that's why I keep my training routine through the holidays. It's the whole No Bull idea. There's a no bullshit training brand built around consistency, honesty, and just putting in the work. It's not about adding more pressure to an already packed schedule. It's about having the gear and the habits to move through the season your way. My personal favorite, all three of the shoes are fantastic. The Outwork, the Outwork Flex, and the Drive 2. I like the Drive 2 because it's a hybrid. And I lift, of course, but I also like to do what's called box jumps.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 33:51Dax Shepard?

  Right? I do a lot of jumping onto a little platform and I want a little more flexibility. And boy, do they deliver.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  And if you're a cardio person and you're running and you also need to be lifting.

• 34:01Dax Shepard?

  And the style is banging. I don't know what to say. Beautiful style, very breathable, very, very comfortable, lots of support. They were built for lifting.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  They also make a great holiday gift. You know, I love gifting, a purposeful one that actually supports someone's goals and routines. And it's not a gift that just ends Up in the back of the closet.

• 34:18Dax Shepard?

  Stay stronger than the season. Head to nobolproject.com all holiday season to shop new deals every week. This episode is brought to you by Dell. Gifts mean more when they have the power to give more. They can inspire more discovery, give more confidence and unwrap more of who you are. This Black Friday, give a gift that goes beyond the box. The Dell XPS 13 laptop with a beautiful design and cutting edge performance. It helps you unlock more possibilities. It's the thinnest, lightest XPS laptop yet. With touchscreen, a backlit keyboard and long lasting battery life to power you through your day. Built with a durable aluminum chassis, weighing just 2.2 pounds and Intel Core processors.

• 35:03Dax Shepard?

  It's fast, reliable and portable enough to keep up wherever you go. Visit dell.com to explore the possibilities of XPS. While shopping, you'll also find great perks like Dell Rewards. Fast free shipping, premium support and financing with flexible payment options. Plus you can find great deals on monitors and accessories. That means you can score a whole new setup now for less. This Black Friday sale is one you don't want to miss. Head to dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

• 35:37Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by Walden University. You know that feeling when you've been thinking about making a move, going after the degree, the promotion, the thing you keep telling yourself you'll get to someday? Walden University is built for that moment. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working professionals get the W, the knowledge, the skills and the confidence to create real change in their careers and communities. Their programs are designed around your life, not the other way around. With Tempo Learning, available in select programs, there are no rigid schedules or set weekly deadlines. You move at your own pace. And Walden's faculty aren't just academics. They're practitioners who bring real world experience into everything they teach.

• 36:20Dax Shepard?

  From your first class to career coaching and beyond, Walden is your partner the whole way. Take the first step and learn. At a pace that works for you. Visit Walden U.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by CHEV. We get support from ZipRecruiter. Oh, get recruiting. So I went down this rabbit hole the other day on real holiday jobs that exist and I couldn't stop. Somebody out there is hiring a ham glazer, a professional ham glazer. Another place is hiring a lead elf, implying a whole hierarchy of elves I had never even considered. Here's the thing, these jobs need real skills. People like that are hard to find.

• 37:04Dax Shepard?

  And whether you're hiring for one of these roles or any other role, the best way to find qualified people who are genuinely excited about your role is on ZipRecruiter. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/dax. Plus ZipRecruiter has a new feature that shows you the most interested qualified candidates first. So you meet the right people faster. No wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/dax. That's ziprecruiter.com/dax. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  I get my best ideas from my clients. They're like, what are thoughts to the Hathaway song, What Is Love? And then with the Saturday Night Live clip is even better. Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 37:59Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  I think it's Jim Carrey is in a sketch singing What Is Love? Baby, don't hurt me. Baby, don't hurt me.

• 38:04Dax Shepard?

  Baby, don't hurt me. Oh, yeah. He joins the Will Ferrell and Catan Roxbury Boys. And he sings that song.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  If you swap in instead of what is love, what are thoughts?

• 38:16Dax Shepard?

  What are thoughts? Baby, don't hurt me.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  Thoughts can't hurt me.

• 38:20Dax Shepard?

  Oh, thoughts can't hurt me anymore. Is that it?

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Yes. I mean, that's one of the options you have at your disposal for ruminating. Because again, a lot of us have the same content that's just been there for ages. That's not serving us that we take very seriously. Like I wouldn't sit there and respond to spam emails or answer robocalls. But why are we doing that with our thoughts?

• 38:39Dax Shepard?

  We accept that insanity is repeating the same thing, expecting different results. And yet we're having the same thoughts we've been having for three decades. And we think each thought is equal, that one thought is as relevant as.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  I love you thoughts and they're not, some are not true. Thoughts aren't true inherently. But they create real feelings. Like if I told you to think about a cockroach while you're ordering avocado toast, it's going to make you lose your appetite. Like they really affect your physiology. And so if we could even just see like any thought in the middle of the night is worth singing.

• 39:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And what about a body reset?

• 39:12Speaker 02

  A body reset could also change your mind because you change your body, you could change your mind. But a popular body one, I'm just giving you one. There's many out here, many work for different people. It's like, sometimes you need a tweezer, sometimes you need a hammer, different skills at different times. But if you were really stressed, if you took a salad bowl and filled it with ice water, held your breath, set a timer for 30 seconds and submerged your face in ice water. We have all these incredible features within us that we forget, like our body is truly our own walking pharmacy. And so if you submerge your face in ice water while holding your breath, your heart rate automatically slows down. It activates like a parasympathetic response. So your heart rate would probably go down like 20 beats per minute. On an Apple watch, you would redirect blood flow to your brain and to your heart.

• 39:53Dax Shepard?

  Right. Cause it thinks your submerge in water is going to save the most vital organs.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Totally. And also how can you possibly be ruminating in that moment? I don't think you should be doing this all the time, but I think just even metaphorically realizing like there's something that can help you in seconds. We have our own control, alt, delete functions within us. If we know what those are, yes, they take a little bit of work, but they also come with this priceless feeling of knowing you can count on yourself.

• 40:16Dax Shepard?

  What about box breathing or breathing exercises? Do you like those?

• 40:20Speaker 02

  I really like the breathing in for five and out for five coherent breathing or paced breathing.

• 40:24Dax Shepard?

  Be more literal about that. So you breathe.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, we could do this together.

• 40:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, let's do it. I'm going to sit in the way you just did.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  Sorry, my feet don't reach the floor.

• 40:31Dax Shepard?

  For the listener, we've become very erect in our posture.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  So if you gently close your lips and breathe in for five seconds, I hope everyone tries this while they're listening. Breathe in for five, one, two, three, four, five, and out for five, also through your nose.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  If you want to tack on to this, you could ever so slightly raise the upper corners of your lips into like a half smile, which is like a facial expression of acceptance. Monica has like such a model.

• 41:02Dax Shepard?

  I've got a little glow across my face. Do you feel anything? No, I think the smiling is shockingly.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  And it's a half smile and it's for you. It's like, I accept this moment. So the half smile plus the slow breathing, it's like, yeah, even if you're getting a root canal, maybe you can't smile, but there's something about this slow breathing.

• 41:18Dax Shepard?

  I just want to now breathe the rest of this because it feels so good. It did feel nice.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  Five minutes of doing this slow breathing reduces blood pressure. Doing it for 20 minutes a day is known to affect your nervous system, helps with things like IBS. I interviewed a bunch of people for the book, obviously, and there's a couple, they're both psychiatrists and based at Columbia University in New York. They actually became so mesmerized by slow breathing that they now don't prescribe medications. They mostly prescribe this breath work and they're even working with people that are in disaster zones.

• 41:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, back to Laird, that's his big thing. He does like breathing workshops. I was at this thing where you could do all these different kind of mini clinics and he hosted this breathing one. I didn't do it because I'm like, I know how to breathe. I'm going to go watch the animation thing. And then by the end of the conference, the most unanimous thing, the thing people liked the most, and there was really exciting offerings, was this whole breathing workshop he did. People were like, that was the best I've felt in a decade. Wow.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and again, this takes seconds. Instead of picking my nail, I could have half smiled and slow breathed and done some sort of gesture of you got this, it's okay.

• 42:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  And then maybe that would have led to like some sort of problem solving of, okay, let's try to rework. Why I feel overwhelmed.

• 42:25Dax Shepard?

  Not to be so egocentric, but I do want to know what I'm doing when I do this. So my biggest breakthrough in road rage, which I am terrible about, not anymore, but I used to be terrible at it, is while I'm monitoring whoever I'm mad at, right, who I think is a bully on the road and I'm going to teach them a lesson, I make myself either start reading license plates, and I got to say them out loud, JL67, or start reading the signs of the buildings I'm passing. And I can't tell you how effective that's been. It's just like literally forcing myself to focus on something different than the thing I want to. That's what no one else. Wants to admit to there's also a high that comes along with your self righteous indignation.

• 43:05Dax Shepard?

  We get off on this. We're a little addicted to this. We like feeling superior and morally on our high ground and the whole anger thing's a little intoxicating. For me, I also have to admit, there's a bad cycle of kind of, you know, pleasure seeking in it.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Back to this thing of like, do you want to be right or do you want to be effective?

• 43:22Dax Shepard?

  And then what about behavior resets?

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Even planning pleasant things, a lot of times we're like, oh no, I'm too busy to do something nice, but actually doing positive experiences and really learning to savor them and relive them.

• 43:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think it requires kind of like a, a whole paradigm shift in your head. I know it happens in AA, right? Which were people like, I can't go to a meeting because I had a thing for my daughter and I can't go to a meeting because I have a thing for work and I can't, and you have to really instill in people, you only have those things if you're sober. The whole thing's built upon this foundation. And I think for a lot of people, the notion that they can't take a walk with a friend, that they don't have time to do that. So well, if you can't do that, the rest of the things are going to go away or they're going to suffer.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  Right. So walk is totally a behavior reset. Even learning how to assert yourself, like if you're annoyed with someone, instead of stewing in it, I can give you a formula for how to ask for what you want, say no, so you're not overthinking it.

• 44:10Dax Shepard?

  What's the formula?

• 44:12Speaker 02

  It's from DBT, dialectical behavior therapy, and it's called Dear Man, and it's an acronym for describe the facts, express how you feel, ask for what you want, reward like what's in it for the other person, be mindful, act confident, negotiate as needed.

• 44:29Dax Shepard?

  Walk us through it. Can you give us a hard example?

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, give me, give me something hard. Someone that's really annoying you.

• 44:34Dax Shepard?

  We can't make it about us because it's too rife. Too explosive.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Okay. Um, there's so many times that people think, oh my God, these people want to stay with me for like two weeks when they're in town for the holidays. Most people default to hosting them begrudgingly or making up a lie.

• 44:49Dax Shepard?

  This is a great one. Let's stick with this one. A lot of people have this.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, but if you're like, okay, I'm so thrilled that you're coming to town. I can't wait to see you. I realize that it's a bit easier this time of year to just keep our house to our family and really want to spend some quality time with people that we don't get to see that are going to be in town at the same time. But I would love to plan a couple of really fun dinners and I can also totally help you with some great local options of hotels that are right near me or Airbnbs that have good options for extended stays.

• 45:20Dax Shepard?

  I can imagine someone doing that for the very first time and then waiting with the craziest sense of anticipation of what the response is. Like if they've never tried that.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Person says, so you don't want me to come?

• 45:31Speaker 02

  This is hard because there's so much in the book, but you have to do the dear man with also this best friend called give, which is like the give is the food for the relationship, which is being gentle, interested, validating, easy manner. So maybe the person says, you don't want me to come? Of course I want you to come. That's why I want to plan these really special dinners and want to make this time not with the chaos of the aunt that's staying for two days and the cousin that's coming for another day. And part of dear man is also calculating intensity because sometimes people are at the airport screaming at someone at a 10 when there's no seat. What are you going to do about that? The person's not capable of giving you what you want. And so I also go through how to compute. Should you be at a one? Should you be at a 10? And someone might be pushing back because you're at a three and maybe you weren't a seven. And this is why I wrote this book, because a lot of people can't afford therapy

• 46:14Speaker 02

  or forget these when the cousin texts you. And for you to have basically on like a post-it, how to do this in the heat of the moment, because that is stressful. Having someone in your house that you don't want there or continuing to reward your neighbor.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  I feel like I've tried and learned some helpful tips with boundaries. These are all boundaries conversations, like how to implement them with kindness. But I think putting it on me sometimes saying, I'm not going to be my best self if we do this. And then that's going to affect you. It's like, I don't want you to stay. It's I know that I will be overwhelmed.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  I love that. And Monica, I think the thing that's great about that is then even being clear, my agenda here is self-respect. And even if someone's mildly annoyed, self-respect is my aim.

• 46:57Dax Shepard?

  It's got to take priority. Yeah, I like that technique quite a bit.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:01Dax Shepard?

  I don't have any problem with kind of confrontation.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  We both don't have that much trouble with that.

• 47:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I know some people are just completely arrested with this inability to have this uncomfortable exchange.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Feelings.

• 47:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I am so blessed. It's one of my blessings is I'm like, well, the alternative to me is not an option. Me being uncomfortable for two weeks versus being uncomfortable for 12 minutes on the phone. I'm going to always pick that for me. There's just like a cost reward analysis, right?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  There's still a way to do it without being like, you can't come because I'll be, I'm mad.

• 47:33Dax Shepard?

  When you're here for five days, the house starts smelling like you. And that's terrible.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  I hate it. I hate that smell. Yeah, you can still be kind. About it. Some people think you're just hurting their feelings and that's mean. There's a middle ground.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  You can get what you want. You can get the relationship and you can get self-respect if you know how to do it.

• 47:48Dax Shepard?

  Let's talk about buffers.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  In addition to learning how to deal with intense moments, whether your mind is making you miserable or your body feels like it's waging a war against you, or you're doing things that are just spreading your stress. We also need to learn how to live a life that feels less stressful. We don't just want to go from like hard time to hard time. And so buffers is almost like preventative medicine, the things we could do preemptively before the hard thing.

• 48:09Dax Shepard?

  You don't want to always be responding. You want to be proactive.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 48:13Dax Shepard?

  Okay, body buffer.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, so a body buffer, coming back to the promise of panic. If someone has panic attacks, one of the most research-backed ways to treat panic is actually practicing panic. And so if someone feels like, oh my God, all of a sudden I'm short of breath, I'm really sweaty. I feel shaky. I feel dizzy. I feel kind of like dissociative. We can help you recreate those. And so the worst thing to do is to try to calm down when your heart is racing. Like, that's really stressful. But if you practice, just imagine you take like a straw and you pinch it so it's narrow in diameter, like a tiny coffee stirrer size diameter, where you could take a regular straw and make that happen. Close your nose and then just breathe from the small opening of the straw. You could do that for 60 seconds.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  And you're like, whoa, I just made myself feel the way I sometimes feel out of the blue. And when it comes up out of the blue, I'm really spooked by it. If you practice recreating the sensations that you normally run from, when they come up, you can kind of put out a welcome mat to them. You stop the loop of like, really bad, go to the ER. This is dangerous. This is getting worse. But instead it's like, okay, I can radically accept how I feel because I've tried this before. I've been here before. And so recreating your body's stress response so you can experience it without.

• 49:29Dax Shepard?

  Whatever triggered it in the first place.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, or without the negative layer of interpretation. So I'm just so curious because you mentioned you had panic.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Full panic attacks.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Have you tried this before?

• 49:38Speaker 01

  I have not tried that. My therapist, she told me to like, name three things you see, name three things you smell, you know, anchor down, name touch things. And that helped. I haven't had one in a really long time.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, when someone comes to my office with panic, I'm not like a cocky person, but I'm like excited. I'm like, I can treat this and this doesn't take very long. I mean, panic again is your body's doing its thing and you're hyper focusing on it. It's almost like the Chinese finger trap. If you stop fighting.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Well, also knowing what it is, I think that's so helpful to straw. Because then when you're in a panic attack, you're like, oh, this is what is happening.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  I practice this.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. For so long, I was like, I have a tumor. I definitely have a brain disorder that's causing all of this. Whenever I went to the doctor, they were like, you don't.

• 50:21Dax Shepard?

  Sorry.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  You don't.

• 50:22Dax Shepard?

  Sorry to tell you, the results are negative.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  You should go to therapy. And when I finally started to believe that, and when it would happen, I was like, oh, I'm panicking. I'm having a panic attack. I'm not dying. No one's ever died from a panic attack. Then it went away.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this is my thing. It's like, if you were taking a benzodiazepine, you might have never learned that lesson. You could learn this lesson in the panic exercises that I'm recommending. Take about five minutes and then you would just need to replicate. Again, this is not a random thought by Jenny Tate's. This is in the unified protocol, which is a gold standard treatment for panic attacks. And it applies across the board. Like if you have those symptoms before giving a speech or before flying or during flying, you can still change your body's stress response.

• 51:02Dax Shepard?

  And what about behavioral buffers? What would that entail?

• 51:05Speaker 02

  So many to choose from, but one of my favorites is called a chain. If you make a mistake, instead of doing one of two things, which I think a lot of us are prone to doing, a lot of us oversimplify like, oh yeah, no big deal. I'll do better tomorrow. Or we struggle with this thing called the abstinence violation effect of like, I can't do it. It's too much. Like I messed up once, like I don't have it in me.

• 51:26Dax Shepard?

  You fail at it once, you'll fail at it forever.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. You can take a moment to like literally write down, even if you took a piece of paper and folded it in half vertically, what was the sequence of events? What made you more vulnerable? Like I didn't sleep well, didn't exercise, didn't eat breakfast. This thing happened. I did this. Write down exactly what happened almost. Like you're rewinding a tape with compassion and then you can go and create solutions at every step along the way.

• 51:52Dax Shepard?

  Can I have a little food before?

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Totally. And then you have like a million solutions. And so instead of being like, I'm just an asshole that sends me in texts to people, I'm like empowered to see what is the setup? I didn't ask for what I wanted earlier than I felt more resentful than I used my text instead of picking up the phone. And so there's a lot of tools, but people that think like, oh, my God, I set these resolutions I can't stick to. You actually can, if you understand what is the domino effect and how do you change each step of the way?

• 52:22Dax Shepard?

  Committing to the laundry list that led up to this event.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Totally. Instead of I'm an idiot or I'll do better tomorrow.

• 52:28Dax Shepard?

  I'm incompetent. I'm not enough. I have a fundamental character flaw that prevents me from doing this thing versus these 12 things happened and now we're here.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 52:38Dax Shepard?

  That's very Sapolsky too.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  I'm really struck by certain findings. Like again, I really am passionate about things where things are very serious, like suicide prevention and something as simple, that Jerome Motto is one of the first people that created a suicide prevention initiative in the 1930s. He's a psychiatrist and he did something as simple as sending people who left the hospital, a letter that said, I'm thinking of you and hoping you're doing well and no need to respond. And that literally prevented suicide.

• 53:05Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  We don't want to do things either to us or to the people around us. We want to instead take vicious cycles and create virtuous ones and take these moments of pain. I mean, I feel like the moments I feel most proud of are the times where things were really stressful. It's almost like chiseling your muscles of emotion regulation. I was in a really bad mood that day. I had a shitty day and I was super sweet to my daughter on her way to swim team, or I was especially nice to like an older person that was in front of me taking forever in the grocery store.

• 53:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay. So I had one specific question. I think the hardest time to use any of these tools is when you're in the middle of a fight with a partner. Or like a family member, I find that once you're in that zone, stopping it and resetting is, I think, the hardest. For me, maybe. How would you advise?

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Cause you're the most emotional, right? Or no?

• 53:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm the most emotional. I think the stakes feel highest because it's someone I love. I'm in a very heightened state and I don't know how to do the thing I do in traffic, which is look at a sign, do this, distract myself, check in. And I'm curious how one interrupts this while in a fight with their partner.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  One thing you could do is even thinking about the values, like how do you want to show up in your life? A lot of us are focused on what we want to get. How do we want to be spoken to? How do we want people to show compassion to us? But how do we want to show up? And so being really clear about regardless of what happens, this is my mission statement. I'm not going to deviate from this. In students that write briefly about their highest values, years later, they're more able to regulate their emotions and persist with long-term goals. I think also just realizing, is there some sort of word we could say that's funny and playful?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Contra action.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's take a minute. This is the whole thing, like distress tolerance is, how do we not make things worse? And then once we came down a few decibels, then we can go to the problem solving. But if there's something we could do to self-soothe, I love this idea of even a hope kit, like a collection of things that gives you a sense of hope, like looking at some pictures that just broaden your view outside of this moment that's not going well to some broader moments of connection and joy. And so something that could help you realize like, okay, in this moment, this isn't about who's right or who's wrong. This is about me doing what matters most to me and what my highest purpose is. And I am too dysregulated to continue to stay here. It's almost like getting up in the middle of an exam and getting a sip of water and then coming back.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Let's try to come back. Stonewalling is a problem, like slamming doors. Should be like, hey, I think we both need to get some water.

• 55:28Dax Shepard?

  I know I do.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, in like a lovely way. You made me so upset that I need to like.

• 55:33Dax Shepard?

  But asking if you can take a minute to do some breathing.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  I think it'd be so sweet to do that together. Like, we care too much about each other. Let's try this thing for a minute because things that are so interesting, if like in the middle of a fight, something funny happens, you forget the fight. Or in the middle of spiraling, someone calls you and they're funny. You could totally stop. And again, it's realizing the channel can change if you let go.

• 55:53Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna admit this. So we do this thing, family square. We probably do them once every couple of months. It's when someone has an actual issue that they need to bring up in the family. We all sit down on the ground. So everyone's low. There's no interrupting. There's some ground rules. And so most often, the family square is about the kids. But we had a family square a couple of days ago. And yeah, Kristin and I got into our loop. You would think, I mean, the thing I'm most committed to in my entire life is the kids. And we're in a loop. I can see we're in a loop. I can see it's upsetting the kids, the thing I care the most about. And we can't get out until one of the kids goes, you guys aren't listening to each other and you're making it worse. So I'm like, I know the fucking nine year olds seeing how obvious this is.

• 56:37Dax Shepard?

  And I was just thinking, because there were moments during it where I'm like, I know what's happening. I don't know how to get out of it.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  All right. Telling yourself like, okay, we could put this down and pick this up at this time. Because I think we think that we're winning by keeping it going, but we're majorly losing.

• 56:50Dax Shepard?

  Well, what I think is I'm finally gonna craft a sentence that's so direct, clever, correct, that it'll penetrate the cycle. And she thinks the same thing.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  But I could tell from listening to you that you are a masterful sentence crafter and you can totally create that.

• 57:06Dax Shepard?

  That's why I'm misled by.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  None but taffy than yourself.

• 57:11Dax Shepard?

  I don't know. No, I think I'm a victim of thinking I'm so good at.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Yes, that is what's happening.

• 57:16Dax Shepard?

  Like, we had a fight yesterday, Monica and I. And literally this morning, I'm still thinking about it. I'm like, I know exactly how I could have got her to understand what I was saying. I should have said X, Y, and Z. Like, I'm still thinking a day later how I could have gotten her to understand my point had I crafted it better. And of course, no, that wouldn't have worked either.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  No, and I too, I'm like driving in the morning. I'm just like.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  If emotions are high on both ends, even if it's the perfect explanation, the receiver's not going to receive it. And so these are amazing ongoing relationships that it doesn't have to be right then and there.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  That is what is helpful. I know it's like, okay, we're gonna come, we're gonna record. It will be fine because we'll put that aside for this. And we did. And then it is.

• 58:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, who cares?

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, then you do. At some point, you just say like, who cares? I kind of forget all the details of the thing I wanted to bring up anyway.

• 58:07Dax Shepard?

  I'll admit this too. This morning, when I was thinking like, I should have said it this way. I was like, also, hold on, you were in a fight in the family square three days ago. Kristin, you were in a fight with Monica yesterday. You know, it might be you.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  That's nice.

• 58:23Dax Shepard?

  I was like, you seem to be the common denominator this week.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Well, it's also just an alchemy of everyone's things coming together.

• 58:32Dax Shepard?

  We have a lot of shared work stress right now. So that wasn't the greatest. Yeah.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  But I truly believe, again, like using the chain, you could totally look at the things. And repair is beautiful. I mean, repair could leave you closer than before.

• 58:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  And to even just see, a huge thing that John Gottman talks about is even just the startup. How the start of the conversation goes is really going to dictate how it goes. You know, if you can start with like warmth and kindness.

• 58:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I might need to adopt his, we interviewed him and he was so lovely.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  So great. A long time ago.

• 58:59Dax Shepard?

  Now, I feel like this would drive someone crazy, but he does it and I also love it, which is his behavioral thing he does, I think, which reverse engineers his whole thinking is, he takes notes while his wife's talking. Like, it's getting heat and he's like, let me get my notepad. And then something about him taking, do you remember that part?

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:15Dax Shepard?

  Him writing down what she's saying, I guess, something about that.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Well, I think it detaches the primal brain of when you're writing it down, sort of objectively, you're also half removed.

• 59:26Dax Shepard?

  It's almost a hack, right? Like the part of your brain that needs to be present to write, maybe, is just enough to pull you out of the amygdala or something?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Give college students, write for three days about something upsetting that happened to them for 20 minutes. The first day, the most upsetting thing. The second day, how it affected your life in the past. Third day, how it's affecting you in the present. People that do that 20 minutes, three times. Sixty minutes. Six months later, they have significant reductions in rumination and depression. And even for people that have PTSD, five days of specific therapeutic writing, written exposure therapy significantly reduces PTSD. And this is like blowing my mind. Memories during trauma are splintered and then it helps you kind of store it properly and again removes you from the event and creates some working distance. Again, like there's these things out there that a lot of people don't know about and they think that they need to do these really expensive things or things that are very mysterious.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  I like what you said that our bodies are a walking pharmacy. We have tools with us. We don't have to look outward. I mean, we can, but we can look inward too.

• 1:00:27Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so now is the part of the interview where you give me free treatment. So nighttime rumination. So again, in the daytime, I'm pretty good. I got a pretty good handle on it. On my rumination. Is that accurate? Let's just say it's significantly less controllable in the middle of the night. I'll even actively be in it going, 90% I don't care about this in the morning. And that is so the case. So often I spend an hour and a half at 3 a.m. obsessing about something. I wake up in the morning and I'm like, I don't even understand why you were doing. You actually don't even care about that. What's happening? And what can I do? I think you're in a compromised state at three in the morning. You're not your most apt version.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  To quote a mentor of mine that taught this CBT for insomnia class, it's a problem to be awake when reason sleeps. An interesting thing in a study on rumination was when people are asked to talk about something that really upset them. If 50% of the people have the opportunity to listen to researchers like eavesdropping outside the door, those people stop ruminating, like literally having some sort of distraction. So some sort of distraction could help if the book on tape on Audible isn't doing it for you. Have you tried like a body scan? Body scan, I could like literally send my breath to all my left toes and really focusing on the breath, reaching my toes.

• 1:01:41Dax Shepard?

  Like you inhale in and you imagine the breath traveling out of your lungs, down your leg and your toe?

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then you move up through your whole body. It's incredibly. And there's progressive muscle relaxation where you tense and release. Can these things take a lot of your focus? And they're very sedating. Like I am energized and in trainings where you pair up and practice doing the body scan on each other, I'm like snoring.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Because it's tedious too. You start at like the top of your head and then You need to like your right eye lid.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  It's super focused and it's super relaxing. And I also find I like to do the slow breathing, the five in, five out. And sometimes if I don't get to it during the day, I try to do it at night. And I can never do the 20 minutes I intend because I pass out probably in like seven minutes.

• 1:02:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  So that's also an option. The slow breathing, there's actually like a light that projects that you could pace your breathing with a light. But there's a bunch of things, but I think you're doing all the right things to even just realize like you're in a motion mind. The content is relevant. Have you tried CBT for insomnia?

• 1:02:37Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  CBT for insomnia works as well as sleep medication for people that have a hard time falling asleep or staying asleep. And so you kind of calculate how many hours are you in bed? How many hours are you in bed?

• 1:02:49Dax Shepard?

  I'm in bed like trying to sleep or watching TV. And let's not get hung up on that. You're not supposed to watch TV in bed. But do you mean just supine in my bed?

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  Let's do trying to sleep.

• 1:02:58Dax Shepard?

  Okay, it's eight hours.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  How many hours are you actually sleeping?

• 1:03:02Dax Shepard?

  Fuck lately, it's been rough. Probably six. Also, I'm in a weird zone, but seven probably.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  Okay, so CBT for insomnia, and again, this is just like a short version. And there's apps for people that are listening like CBTi. It's like a free VA app that works well.

• 1:03:16Dax Shepard?

  I gotta get that.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So basically you pick your wake time. Like what time do you want to wake up?

• 1:03:20Dax Shepard?

  6:40.

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  So you set your wake time and that does not change. There's no snooze. You pick your wake time and then you go to bed at about the same time that you've been typically averaging sleep. So let's say you've been sleeping six hours. You go to bed at 12:40. Then you wake up at 6:40 and then that creates kind of a drive for sleep. And because you need a certain level of homeostatic drive for sleep, because a lot of times what we do is like, oh my gosh, I couldn't fall asleep last night. Let's go to bed early tonight. And then let's hit snooze.

• 1:03:48Dax Shepard?

  That's what I do.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  And those two things are a problem because it's almost like jet lag. You need to be primed for sleep. But then you get the six hours. Then once you're sleeping 90% of the time, you can add in 20 minutes after like several days. But I don't know if you've had this, but I've had this thing where I feel like, oh, I'm so tired. I didn't sleep well. And then I start canceling things like I cancel a gym class I'm supposed to go to in the morning. And then the whole day is like set up for failure. Sleep is a huge buffer. I don't want to understate that, especially if you're chronically not sleeping. Enough, really hard to do any of the things if you're under sleeping. But it's like, okay, so if I get up when I'm feeling under slept and start running at Barry's Boot Camp, I will have a better day and then sleep better the next night.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:04:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's my reservation about people who do all these sleep monitor devices. I'm like, if you wake up and you know you've slept like shit, how are you not gonna have a terrible day? I don't understand the benefit of this.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I ran the marathon a number of years ago and the coach that I was working with, because I did it postpartum and I really needed a coach. He was like, just be prepared that you will not sleep that night because you have to start getting to Dodger Stadium at like four in the morning. He's like, it's fine to not sleep. And I was like, how am I gonna do it? He's like, no one sleeps the night of the marathon. I'm like, if you could run a marathon on no sleep, like you could kind of do most things with no sleep.

• 1:05:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you probably work out for 40 minutes on six hours.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Or like be functional at work or as a person.

• 1:05:06Dax Shepard?

  I do have that piece. That's why I say 640. That's non-negotiable.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Dax Shepard?

  I have to meditate. I have to journal and I have to get my kids to school at a certain time. So there's no snooze because then I'll miss the meditation or the journal. Then I might as well stay in bed all day because I'll have a miserable day. Oh, we have more control than we think.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, we do. It's good. It's helpful.

• 1:05:23Dax Shepard?

  The headline.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  We have so much more control than we think and peace of mind isn't life being easy, but it's knowing that you can count on yourself regardless of what shows up in your life.

• 1:05:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Stress resets: How to soothe your body and mind in minutes. And to your point about having something to reference, the book is incredibly efficient. It's a lot of bang for the buck. Every single page, there's something actionable almost on it. There's something concrete and real and something you can practice. And it's a very quick, easy way to get your head around all this.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  Totally. And everything is rooted in science and these things are stackable and doable. And it felt kind of weird, but I taught these tools in a prison recently. And I was thinking like, this is a really shitty situation. I really hope this will make a difference. But with a lot of these tools, you have a lot of options.

• 1:06:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:06:09Dax Shepard?

  Well, Jenny, it's been so nice meeting you. You represent the alma mater wonderfully, feather in the cap to all Bruins.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty good.

• 1:06:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. We wish you well and I hope everyone checks out Stress Resets.

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  Thank you, guys.

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:06:30Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff. But there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends. Docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left. What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open, not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly is different. It's already right there inside your email, your docs, your browser. You don't go to it. It's already working alongside you. You're deep in a long thread, highlight it, and it pulls the key points. About to send something important? It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands.

• 1:07:15Dax Shepard?

  It knows your style, your workflows, and it just backs you up without getting in the way. A thought partner that's already up to speed at your service, not after your job. So do yourself a favor and try Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode? Between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything. Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 1:07:48Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation. And I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes and they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds.

• 1:08:16Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  Recently.

• 1:08:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  That doesn't have a Helix mattress on it. And I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 1:08:22Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  It was a mess. I need a new one.

• 1:08:25Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired, and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic, the experts agree.

• 1:08:46Dax Shepard?

  Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. Helixsleep.com/armchair. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace. And I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic, and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex.

• 1:09:30Dax Shepard?

  It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com. We get support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or for Gleepran. Foundo is a once-daily prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight

• 1:10:13Dax Shepard?

  who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

• 1:10:18Speaker 04

  Foundo should not be used with other GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Foundo is safe and effective for use in children. Don't take Foundo if you're allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had majorary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. Serious side effects may include inflamed pancreas and gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant to be, or taking birth control pills, and before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. Taking Foundo... With an insulin or sulfonylurea may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and may cause kidney problems. Once Daily Foundo is available by prescription only

• 1:11:00Speaker 04

  in 0.8 milligram, 2.5 milligram, 5.5 milligram, 9 milligram, 14.5 milligram, and 17.2 milligram tablets. Learn more at foundo.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundo.

• 1:11:18Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for a fact check. It's where the party's at.

• 1:11:26Dax Shepard?

  Any issues, uh, what do we call that?

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Respiratory.

• 1:11:30Dax Shepard?

  Respiratory issues?

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Um, I've been masking outside.

• 1:11:34Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  So I've been fine. I've been, I mean, I've had headaches, but other than that.

• 1:11:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, headaches, same.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:43Dax Shepard?

  It's very reminiscent of COVID.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  It's so.

• 1:11:47Dax Shepard?

  For me.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  It's so COVID-y.

• 1:11:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I was just editing our last fact check, which was.

• 1:11:56Dax Shepard?

  Sounds like you probably.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  Tuesday. Yeah. It was Wednesday morning. And so much has happened since then.

• 1:12:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  A hundred and 30,000 people have evacuated.

• 1:12:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  There's something like 9,000 structures are decimated.

• 1:12:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I have to imagine it's gonna be.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  The toll at the end of this.

• 1:12:20Dax Shepard?

  You'd have to go back to the Chicago fires, probably.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Oh, they already said it's eight times.

• 1:12:24Dax Shepard?

  Sure, in today's dollars, right? Because Chicago disappeared.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Well, not dollars. Sorry, they're saying space.

• 1:12:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh, space.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's that also that, um, picture going around of Manhattan. It's like all of Manhattan.

• 1:12:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Is 14,000 acres.

• 1:12:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  And like.

• 1:12:45Dax Shepard?

  We're at what?

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  It's also crazy that I'm like, oh, my God, yay. It's 3% contained. Like, it's Friday and the Eaton Fire is 3% contained, which is the first time I've seen any containment on it. The Eaton Fire, the one that's on the east side of the city, is at 13. Thousand nine hundred and fifty six acres and Palisades is twenty thousand.

• 1:13:13Dax Shepard?

  Twenty thousand acres in Palisades. We have people staying with us as we had in COVID. And then, yeah, I went out yesterday with Del T in masks. And I was like, oh, this feels very familiar. There's like people living at the house.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:29Dax Shepard?

  I'm in a mask. Oh, my God, we're we're back here.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  I know. When I was pulling out the masks, I was like, oh, my God. I cannot believe I have to put this back on my face. The feelings are really wild around the for I still don't have power.

• 1:13:49Dax Shepard?

  Still don't have power.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  It's inconvenient. It's not bad compared to what's going on.

• 1:13:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Yeah, we drove down Hillhurst where there was like twenty five crews working on all those power lines.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Dax Shepard?

  Trees all over them. I'm presuming that's why yours is out.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's right at my intersection.

• 1:14:06Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  So but they've been working through the night last two nights trying to get it back.

• 1:14:15Dax Shepard?

  There was an army there for sure.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what feelings I had. There was a moment where, you know, they had evacuated like a quarter mile down the road. When the Running Canyon fire was going. And I was like, OK, so the west side is completely on fire. Now the center of the city is on fire and the east side is on fire. And I did start to open up my imagination to the degree where I was like, well, I would have said what has already happened would have been impossible, like that for the Palisades to disappear. And I was like, fuck, if the Palisades can disappear, I'm like, could LA disappear? Like, will we witness the the end of LA as it previously existed?

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:14:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's never a thought I I ever even considered was possible.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Dax Shepard?

  But, yeah, with with winds blowing seventy miles an hour, yeah, it's possible.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:10Dax Shepard?

  But then you click into whatever role you have in your group, so. You know, then I go to, yep. And Dresden was gone and London was gone and Hiroshima was gone and Nagasaki was gone. And we are resilient and it'll be back and that's who we are and trying to put some light at the tunnel for everyone in the house. Yeah, you just go through all these. Everyone just clicks into whatever role they have, you know?

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been interesting for me because I'm by myself and normally I'm not. And it has been weird to.

• 1:15:47Dax Shepard?

  You have been invited over, we should say.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Yes, I have. I'm by myself and so I have taken on all the roles.

• 1:15:57Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. Tearing yourself up, letting yourself get scared.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have to be scared like I can't wait for, I can't wait for somebody else. Like, okay, it's time to evacuate, like I have to decide. And I think normally I am in that sort of case, like I let, I'll let somebody else make that decision. I think they're better at making that decision than me. But what do I take? At first I was like, I don't even know what you're supposed to take. Like the last time we talked, I was like, oh, I just, I just put my passport and my medicine, which also that was crazy. I had, I had one day left of seizure medication and then the, my pharmacy was down because of the powers. I was like, oh my God, I'm, I mean, what am I going to do about that?

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  And anyway, but then, then I really thought about it and I was like, no, I gotta like, I, I took all these photographs I have. There's this little like drawing Delta made, I put that in there. And then that was it. But I really was like, what matters here for real? Like I'm, I probably have to go, like what really matters? And it was those things and it's just such a, it's so heady to have to think about that. Like what do you really need? What will you be? Like, did you see the thing John Mayer posted? I thought it was so well articulated.

• 1:17:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no, I didn't see.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  It says, it said this. He, he posted-

• 1:17:20Dax Shepard?

  Funny is, is people are saying things I'm remembering that didn't even cross my mind. Like, I didn't, I didn't pack a passport.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  You gotta get your passport. Kristen Paul did.

• 1:17:29Dax Shepard?

  All I packed was, all I packed was my journals. Which, I think I made, by the way, my journals take up the full size of Waybag.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:17:38Dax Shepard?

  So in the midst of all this, I also was like, to see my journals um, in one spot, I was like, holy smokes, if I had written a lot of-

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:49Dax Shepard?

  I had this weird little moment of like-

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  You should take your dad's, um, like something of your dad's, probably.

• 1:17:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, there's a ton of stuff I should have packed, but I was just like-

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  I mean, it's panicky.

• 1:18:02Dax Shepard?

  The written word. Uh, I have the memories, like, yeah, all the cute things my kids made me, they're all really, really important to me. But my, I have my kids, they're important to me. And so I kept telling the girls, I'm like, we'll try to get everything you care about, but also, guys, this is it. Us four can go anywhere and we have the thing we want, so.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  So John Mayer posted a picture of, a picture, and he said, "This is the most valuable thing I own. It's a folder of photos of my father, spanning his life from being a baby, an educator, a husband and a father. It's the only evidence of his life that will exist over time. These are the quote, "documents you read about people taking from their homes. When you hear someone say they've lost everything in a fire, this is much of that everything, if not all of it. Those who say they'll be okay still have their folders and their albums. Those who are inconsolable have lost them. Just behind the immeasurable loss of life is the loss of the proof of life. I don't practice prayer, but tonight I will say one for everyone who no longer has these items.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  It's not about the art and the collectibles, it's the photos, the letters, the class rings, the eyeglasses, and the things we keep to remind us that those we loved were here. May those who have lost so much find some semblance of hope and support from their family and friends. Stay safe, look out for yourself and for one another, and trust that humanity and all it entails, though sometimes hard to see, is alive and well. This is truly devastating." And I do think that's right, like, it's like, oh, all this stuff is just stuff, but it's so, it is more than stuff. It's evidence of life.

• 1:19:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  It's really intense. Um, there are weird things, like, my friend-

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  Just saying that her friend's house is the only one standing like how weird.

• 1:19:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and this um I'm naturally trying to govern what stuff we talk about because I know some stuff will it'll anger you or it'll.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, I don't want I don't know how much you want to say, but I think we can it's it's it's real.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  The reason I didn't come over and I do really appreciate the offer, of course, but I I think me and you are always the most compatible in these situations. We ignite each other's worst parts.

• 1:20:14Dax Shepard?

  Well, we're so different.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  But other people are different that I think you I don't know and same for me with you like it's there there's something specific about us that

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  we get really worked up when the other person doesn't align.

• 1:20:34Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  And um and so I was.

• 1:20:38Dax Shepard?

  Well, who? Okay, yeah, I think that's I think that's a lot of that's true, but I'm not bothered by I don't mind that you're as scared as you are. I'm not, right? Yeah, like I'm just naturally not. This is like, oh, yeah, this is all I think about. This is like the hypervigilance and all that. It's like, all right, yeah, it's it's here. It's time to get

• 1:21:04Dax Shepard?

  it's time to get down. And so I'm like energized and I'm focused and I'm thinking and I got all the hoses out and I got the generator out and I got the extra gas out and I got the car filled up and like, you know, I'm I'm I'm engaged in all the things that I will do to help get through this thing. And so, yeah, this was a thing I was in it's like runs the risk of you being mad at me, but I was gonna send them away, right? Like, I was gonna send Kristen and the girls to their dads. I'm definitely staying hosing the house down. There's no way I'm not gonna do that. Like, I'm gonna I got I can sit in the middle of my yard. I'm not inside of a house burning. I can be on the outside of a house that's burning and not die. And I have a motorcycle to escape at any point. So I very much was never leaving regardless in my mind.

• 1:21:48Dax Shepard?

  I was like, yeah, I'm gonna definitely get my family out of here, but definitely staying with hoses.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  The Hanson's did that. They hosed down their house when they because there was one popped up in Studio City like right by.

• 1:21:58Dax Shepard?

  Very suspicious one.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that.

• 1:22:01Dax Shepard?

  If that turns out, I mean, if it's not, my condolences. If you had the audacity to try to fucking do some insurance fraud at the risk of setting up the rest of that area on fire, that's to me, you need to be in jail time for that.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Yes, I agree. The Sunset one that was really close to us.

• 1:22:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  And then this one in Studio City like felt really weird because the winds were pretty much done at that time.

• 1:22:29Dax Shepard?

  It started inside their house too, most importantly.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  That the Studio City one did. Yeah, I know. But even the Runyon Canyon one felt weird. It was like, what?

• 1:22:36Dax Shepard?

  Well, you have two, there's two things happening.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:39Dax Shepard?

  And that's another layer of this we'll get to. There are arsonists in the city.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:43Dax Shepard?

  They've set fires in, you know, many times, many of these fires we've had in LA are started by arsonists.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:49Dax Shepard?

  And so you have arsonists that already exist and they've got the perfect opportunity, right? Then you have people who do commit insurance fraud. They also pop up all the time. So you've like, there's easily two groups of bad actors in the mix of all this other shit.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there were looters.

• 1:23:07Dax Shepard?

  Well, and that's what I wanted to add. When I went, when, when it was a half mile from the house and it looked like, okay, it's coming here. I had gone up to the gas station at Sunset and, and, and, uh, doesn't matter, very busy big gas station. I wanted the truck to be full in case Belle had to drive it all the way to Vegas to dad's or whatever. And, um, I know the vibe. I've been in Detroit when the vibes happening on Devil's Night. I know the vibe. I was at the gas station and I was like, there's like 20 young men out. There's dudes on dirt bikes that are not street legal. Like there's that air of like, they know too, no one's watching. There's a vibe of everyone that's supposed to be making

• 1:23:50Dax Shepard?

  sure there's law and order is distracted. And there was just this burble that I could feel from the other dudes. And I was like, okay, so we got the fire hazard, but also I'm now for me, there, there's a significant, maybe even double digit percentage, people are coming into the house today. Other elements are now going to pop off because of all this other chaos.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that tends to be the way it goes in these scenarios. So it's important to be prepared for all of it. It's so annoying because in The Holiday, the movie, The Holiday, there's this like cutesy moment where Jack Black is meeting Kate Winslet and like, Like something that kind of gets in her eye and he picks it out of her eye. And it's just like very rom com-y moment. He's like Santa Anas. He's like explaining to her about the Santa Anas and it's like really cute.

• 1:24:41Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. You'll never be able to watch that part again.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  I can't watch that anymore. Can't watch it.

• 1:24:49Dax Shepard?

  I will say the, for better or worse in life, I'm experiencing it. But I'm also kind of always looking at it from a little bit to the side of it in the very anthropological way. And my current fascination with this whole thing. And I've gotten to be a part of enough things now where I see this materialize. It's like, we're all so different.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:22Dax Shepard?

  And thank God.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:24Dax Shepard?

  Thank God. If they're all like me, everyone's gonna kill themselves. If they're all rendered immobile by fear, they're all gonna die. And it's, and it really, that doesn't require any talk or coordination. It just immediately burbles up. Like we had Jackie, Joe, Anna, Joy, Kristen, the girls, myself in the house. And everyone just innately files into their role.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:00Dax Shepard?

  That they are biologically destined to be. And it's just really on display in a situation like this. It's why ADHD folks are imperative. Someone's gotta go out and find the new fruit tree. And it's why leaders, while insufferable at times, that's their time. And they reassure people. And then the people who are like really scared, then at the other time in life, they're more compassionate and flexible and dialed in. And they're, they're taking care of the needs, the emotional needs of this group of 100. And, and you just look at our, it's not an accident where we come in these archetypes. It's like we all have our different moments.

• 1:26:41Dax Shepard?

  And the reactions is so visceral, like whether you're wired, what way or not. Like I call, I immediately text. Ashed in and said, are you guys up in carpentry? Which was my assumption. The air is very clean up there. And he's like, absolutely not. I'm at my house with a hose.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw it. There was a video of him hosing.

• 1:27:03Dax Shepard?

  He went to the Palisades and hosed other people's houses in the daytime. And then he's at his house. I hear what Charlie's doing. Everyone's doing. It's just really interesting. I find it incredibly interesting that we are all unique in this very complimentary way where we we function as a group.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:23Dax Shepard?

  And it's, uh, it's great.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:25Dax Shepard?

  It's so great.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  It is. Also, it gets problematic when you only surround yourself with like one type of person or people exactly like you, which is easy to do. But it's, it is not. I mean, for many reasons, it is not best. Like you need a diverse group, you know, obviously not, not like, I mean, yes, racially, socioeconomically, skill wise, you need a diverse group.

• 1:27:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we're at an uncomfortable transition phase in civilization as humans where it's like, we're almost there and also we're not. It's like, we can almost be our best benevolent self, but you still have Vladimir Putin on the planet. That's still a real person on the planet. That's not operating in the way we're all trying to evolve to. We're not there yet.

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Dax Shepard?

  We're not in the space age where we have like dominated all threats and can all just be one way.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  Close. I mean, if anything, this was so, it's like, we do live in this city of sparkles and, and money and status and fame and.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  It can burn down in a night like it's it's it is humbling and

• 1:28:48Dax Shepard?

  It is. And then even like the um, the trajectory of crime, if you plot it from the sixties and seventies, you know, it's just gone like this.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:59Dax Shepard?

  But it's not gone. There's far less, thank God.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:03Dax Shepard?

  But there's still quite a few people right now that are very willing to take an opportunity like this.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:11Dax Shepard?

  That's still a reality. We're not there, you know, it's like,

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:16Dax Shepard?

  We're in a transition and it's just, it's, I think it's weirdly almost harder. Like back when it was barbarism, it was just like, okay, well, we got a rule with a iron fist and you gotta put down all this. And we move away from that as we should and we're getting somewhere hopefully in the future where that's not even necessary. But it's like, we're in this interesting phase where it's like, it's not necessary, but then all of a sudden it is necessary and then it isn't.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Dax Shepard?

  It is.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  It's wild.

• 1:29:41Dax Shepard?

  The crickets made it though. That's good.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 1:29:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  That part's good.

• 1:29:48Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:29:55Dax Shepard?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition. Nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't?

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Yes, and that question applies to so much more than the holidays. I think a lot of us carry these invisible rules about how we're supposed to spend the holidays, who we're supposed to see, what it's supposed to look like. And when you start unpacking that with a therapist, you realize half of your stress is coming from rules you didn't even write.

• 1:30:34Dax Shepard?

  This is where BetterHelp can be a great resource during the holidays. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, which means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored Rex.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  I just love therapy. I've been avoiding it recently, or not avoiding it, but I was like, oh, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. I haven't canceled, canceled, canceled. But then I-

• 1:31:01Dax Shepard?

  You start feeling it.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I had it this past weekend and I was like, oh my God, and just thank God, thank God for her. Yeah.

• 1:31:09Dax Shepard?

  BetterHelp is now in network with more than 125 health plans with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com slash DAX. That's betterhelp, H E L P dot com slash DAX.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Okay, couple of facts. Okay, so for Jenny, Laird Hamilton's creamer.

• 1:31:46Dax Shepard?

  Hmm. Tell me about Laird Hamilton's creamer.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  It is, you asked if it was mushroom based. It is mushroom based. Clean plant based alternative to your dairy and sugar feet and sugar coffee creamers. Made with reishi mushrooms.

• 1:32:04Dax Shepard?

  Now, I could be wrong on the timeline of this, but I do think I'm right. I think mushrooms, fungi was the first thing to sustain itself by eating other things.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  That sounds right.

• 1:32:17Dax Shepard?

  Like prior to that, it is absorbing sun and everything's growing and they invent consumption of other living beings. They're the first monsters.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Oh gross. And they look like it.

• 1:32:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  And they taste good. I like them.

• 1:32:31Dax Shepard?

  There was in Mexico City on the menu. It wasn't a mushroom cobbler, but by God, it was something like that. There was a dessert on the menu that was mushrooms first.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  Weird.

• 1:32:44Dax Shepard?

  And you know, Molly loves mushrooms.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:32:46Dax Shepard?

  And I said, how much do you love mushrooms? Enough to get this mushroom dessert. And she said, absolutely not.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  Oh, obviously she had tried it.

• 1:32:54Dax Shepard?

  Orders of the mushroom dessert.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  Weird. Well, it's in this creamer. Maybe it's good.

• 1:32:59Dax Shepard?

  Creamer is good. I've had, I've had Laird's creamer and it's quite good.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay, Bellevue, Bellevue.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  Came up again, which is interesting because it came up on Monday's episode with Josh Brolin. He said his aunt was at Bellevue.

• 1:33:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Um, it's a hospital in New York, oldest public hospital.

• 1:33:19Dax Shepard?

  Can I ask where you first heard it? Because I'm pretty sure where I first heard that. Uh, Seinfeld, they would say it all the time.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:33:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Of course, it's a punchline in comedy a lot. They're gonna send someone to Bellevue.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:31Dax Shepard?

  And I think, obviously, they were all in New York making that. Well, they were here making the show, but it's in New York.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:37Dax Shepard?

  And they're New Yorkers.

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  Interesting. I, I don't know the first time I heard it, but Seinfeld wasn't my show.

• 1:33:43Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  I don't remember them saying it on Friends, but.

• 1:33:47Dax Shepard?

  They should have. They were in New York.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  Missed opportunity. Jim Carrey, SNL, What Is Love, is funny.

• 1:33:54Dax Shepard?

  It's funny.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. So check that out on YouTube.

• 1:33:57Dax Shepard?

  You double checked it.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I looked it up.

• 1:33:59Dax Shepard?

  You checked that claim and it is a fact. It's funny.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  Funny. It's on YouTube. You can check it out. We're also on YouTube.

• 1:34:05Dax Shepard?

  We are on YouTube.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Check us out on YouTube. We're there. Um.

• 1:34:09Dax Shepard?

  You wouldn't know, but we're there.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  People liked the clip.

• 1:34:13Dax Shepard?

  The underwear clip.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  People really liked the underwear clip.

• 1:34:16Dax Shepard?

  I like the underwear clip.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:18Dax Shepard?

  I really like watching when you and I start laughing in that deep, genuine where we can't really proceed. Kind of you get incapacitated. You can't move or talk.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:34:30Dax Shepard?

  There's something so joyous about that.

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  It is. It is fun.

• 1:34:33Dax Shepard?

  Like, you're leaned over this and I'm kind of just hiding from the camera. There's all, it's just really joyous.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:41Dax Shepard?

  What, what was the clip people liked?

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  The fact check clip of me daydreaming.

• 1:34:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, that was great.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was fun.

• 1:34:48Dax Shepard?

  That was really funny. People love that as well.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a fun one. Oh, I think this is worth saying. When I was editing this, I, I sort of had the realization because my friend had hiccups at the time, chronic hiccups. Which he sometimes gets and you've also had and we've we've talked about it and someone sent you lollipops. What were they called again?

• 1:35:08Dax Shepard?

  Hiccup pops.

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:35:12Dax Shepard?

  I got them again at Christmas, not nearly as long. Funny enough, that's when I got them the previous time. I might be allergic. I may go too hard at Christmas and it gives me hiccups. And I was.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  That's when he had it.

• 1:35:22Dax Shepard?

  Really?

• 1:35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:23Dax Shepard?

  I was scouring the house for the hickory pops and I couldn't find them. I was desperate for a hickory pop right before Christmas.

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, the thing is, when you're around someone who's constantly hiccuping and it's it's wild, like, it's really kind of scary and it won't stop. He was trying to do everything to get him to stop and you'll do anything, you know, you do this other person was like, you know, you have to like turn upside down and like do the drinking the water and he was like, okay, you know, he's like, you're trying everything. It's stupid. Like, none of these things really are gonna work for us.

• 1:35:58Dax Shepard?

  You'll go to the ends of the earth to stop it.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  You will, but we don't do it for our brains. We could be doing, like, you'll do anything to stop hiccups, but anxiety and depression and these things that are.

• 1:36:11Dax Shepard?

  Rumination.

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  Exactly, rumination. These are the real taxing things. We're just like, I guess I just have this.

• 1:36:19Dax Shepard?

  I'll have to live with it.

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you don't have to. You can do these things and it can help.

• 1:36:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  Body scans are great. Tara Brock. If you have Wondery Plus, if you have Wondery Plus, you heard you heard us do these facts already and we tried to get through a part that was very hard to get through with me saying Tara Brock.

• 1:36:43Dax Shepard?

  The underwear out of the pants again.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. But Tara Brock is a great, she has a great podcast and and a lot of great meditations and she walks you through body scans and it's helpful. I like it.

• 1:36:56Dax Shepard?

  Right. And that doesn't mean go to an MRI and get your body scanned, because that's what I think of when I think of body scan.

• 1:37:01Speaker 01

  No, it's a mental body scan.

• 1:37:03Dax Shepard?

  Mental body scan.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  Before bed is good.

• 1:37:05Dax Shepard?

  Focus on your follicles of your hair, move down to the follicles of your eyebrows. What did you think of the, did you hear the joke about Timothy Chalamet? Also, have I told you how obsessed I am with him now?

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  No, I love him.

• 1:37:19Dax Shepard?

  I love him so.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  Did you get to talk to him?

• 1:37:21Dax Shepard?

  No, and I wanted to so bad.

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  You're talking about the Golden Globes?

• 1:37:25Dax Shepard?

  The Golden Globes, he was there. And I had just watched Lady Bird and Little Women.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  I forgot he was in Lady Bird. Oh my God. I forgot.

• 1:37:37Dax Shepard?

  I.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:37:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm like.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  He's in the new Leonardo DiCaprio.

• 1:37:42Dax Shepard?

  It took me back to like Johnny Depp where I was like, what, who's this guy? Whoa. Yeah, there's something really powerful about Timothy Chalamet. Am I saying it right?

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  Chalamet.

• 1:37:52Dax Shepard?

  Chalamet.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:54Dax Shepard?

  So.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  You know, he's in Call Me By Your Name.

• 1:37:57Dax Shepard?

  I haven't seen that.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:37:59Dax Shepard?

  I need to see it.

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  The revelation.

• 1:38:00Dax Shepard?

  Now that I'm on the Chalamet train.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, Chalamet.

• 1:38:03Dax Shepard?

  Chalamet. I'll get his name one day.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:07Dax Shepard?

  By the way, if I mix up your name and you're offended, I would, I hope this bolsters well to the fact that like I'm obsessed with this kid and I can't say his name. But there was a joke about him at the Globes.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  About his mustache, right?

• 1:38:18Dax Shepard?

  Said he has the most beautiful eye, long eyelashes above his lip.

• 1:38:23Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:38:23Dax Shepard?

  And I was, I felt very defensive of him.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so actually I've been wanting.

• 1:38:28Dax Shepard?

  It's a good joke. Let me just say it's a good joke.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Okay, I've actually been wanting to talk about this, but obviously the fires and it did not take precedent. But I have a lot of thoughts.

• 1:38:41Dax Shepard?

  Ooh, I'm, I would love to hear them.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  About these types of jokes.

• 1:38:47Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. Roasting in general is one topic.

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  Is one thing. And then this is adjacent.

• 1:38:53Dax Shepard?

  But people who go to a roast have, have agreed to go to a roast.

• 1:38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But like, why do we still do it? Why are we doing this? Why are we roasting? It is so.

• 1:39:04Dax Shepard?

  Well.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  It's hard to have this conversation because I sound like very Pollyanna or like I'm, I'm, I'm so, I'm so against meanness.

• 1:39:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  I don't mean to come off like that, but like I do, it's true. Why be mean as a job?

• 1:39:20Dax Shepard?

  I can see it from all the angles, right?

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:23Dax Shepard?

  So one is the people making fun of the other people and say they're punching up.

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:39:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that's kind of like the, the blanket excuse. Well, you're punching up, you're not making fun of some disenfranchised person. You're making fun of a very rich.

• 1:39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:37Dax Shepard?

  Movie star.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:38Dax Shepard?

  Valid point.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  That's fine. Sure.

• 1:39:40Dax Shepard?

  Valid.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  I can, yeah.

• 1:39:41Dax Shepard?

  Totally valid. People really deeply enjoy watching their heroes have to get humbled a little bit by a joke. So for the audience, it's deeply satisfying.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  I guess.

• 1:39:53Dax Shepard?

  They enjoy the hell out of it. At the end of the day, putting on this entertainment show that's 26 hours long.

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:59Dax Shepard?

  And it's presumably for the audience that's watching. Then it gets into this really fun thing, and I will not out this person, but I'm really good friends with someone that was nominated for one of the big awards. And we had this long text exchange and he is like, I can't believe I go to these. I don't want to go anymore. The notion that the entire thing is to slake our ego's desire.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:25Dax Shepard?

  Um, by making us compete so that ultimately someone else can sell a show to America for millions of dollars, that those people are smart enough to know that our egos will get us there to that room.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:37Dax Shepard?

  So that we can be made fun of. The Golden Globes is run by the Hollywood Foreign Press. It's these single people who have left their country to come to Hollywood to report on Hollywood goings ons back in their home country. And it's very few people. It's not like the Academy Awards where it's like.

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:55Dax Shepard?

  Thousands of people who are peers and experts in the trade. It, of all the things, it's funny, that's the one that broke through as being second only to the Oscars.

• 1:41:03Speaker 01

  I know, it's true.

• 1:41:05Dax Shepard?

  And so my friend was like lamenting of how tricky it is. Like he doesn't want to be there. He thinks it's the whole thing's a scam and that the people are making a ton of money on the vanity of these people. And yet kinda has to do it because it helps promote the movie that he's in and potentially makes the movie more successful, which is what everyone would want. You get this like really catch 22 situation. And I will say, and people will rightly accuse me of going, you're just saying this because you're left out of it, but I don't feel that way. The time for this has come and gone.

• 1:41:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:41:45Dax Shepard?

  It feels very weird and outdated and tone deaf and weird. It's starting to feel weirder and weirder and weirder. I was like, what is going on right here? Now you get into the whole roasting thing because I was watching, I was like, I get it punching up.

• 1:41:58Speaker 01

  I like Nikki Glide, I like her.

• 1:42:00Dax Shepard?

  She's great. She's really, really funny. I'll just say she's really, really funny and I have no ill will towards her. I, my personal experience is I bump into Jesse Eisenberg getting a Diet Coke. And he said, did you see, we were in the New York Times yesterday, you and I.

• 1:42:19Dax Shepard?

  Apparently Nikki had two jokes about you and I that were too gnarly for ABC or whatever network it was on. So I sit down at my seat.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  You knew that at while you were spinning.

• 1:42:30Dax Shepard?

  Knowing she had some joke about me that was too bad to be aired. So I'm watching the monologue going, I'm expecting there's some shot that there's a joke coming my way.

• 1:42:43Dax Shepard?

  Maybe the one she wanted got rejected, but maybe she retooled it or something. So I'm just kind of waiting to get blasted and I'm like trying to think like, okay, what's the ideal reaction to getting completely skewered? I'm now, I'm meaner than her in my own head.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42:59Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, she's gonna start saying that I'm only there because of Kristen. I'm filling in all the worst blanks, like the loser boyfriend who's here. You know, the way she made fun of Benny Blanco.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:12Dax Shepard?

  You know? And I'm like, oh, it's coming, it's coming. And I'm, I have to play a role. I think it's hilarious.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  Were you gonna laugh?

• 1:43:19Dax Shepard?

  Because I don't, what else could you do?

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  That's nice. No, some people don't. They're like.

• 1:43:25Dax Shepard?

  Well, I didn't get to see Timmy's reaction.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  He did it. He played.

• 1:43:28Dax Shepard?

  He did a good job.

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  He played along.

• 1:43:29Dax Shepard?

  You've got no option. You gotta act like you've.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  I think it's nice to play along, but I also, like, I thought that when Joe Coy did his thing, no one played along except Bradley. And I thought that was very big of him.

• 1:43:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  And I remember thinking like, oh, wow. Good for him. He's playing along. No one else is doing this. But.

• 1:43:52Dax Shepard?

  I think it's the only move.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  But I kind of get it. But I get it. You're like, why do I have to pretend this is funny? You're making fun of me.

• 1:43:58Dax Shepard?

  Yes, in front of everyone.

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:00Dax Shepard?

  And I'm insecure like everyone else here. We're all insecure. This, you all think that we got secure somehow because we got invited. No, everyone here is super insecure. And then I find on the other side of that, this great compassion for Nikki, which is like, we'll invite you if you shit on everyone. And now if she wants to be on TV in that big of an audience.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  And gain all her popularity.

• 1:44:25Dax Shepard?

  She has to shit on all these people that she probably likes and would like to be endeared to and be friends with, just like all of us would be. So I'm like, everyone's losing in this scenario. I don't think Nikki only wants to be invited to the party if she's come, if her responsibilities come shit on everyone.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:41Dax Shepard?

  And I don't think anyone likes the being shit on.

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:43Dax Shepard?

  The audience is winning, I guess.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  Are they?

• 1:44:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they're, they're, there's no way they're not. That's fun. They're loving seeing the, the elite people get taken down a peg. Cause we all enjoy that.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  I don't. I don't. I'm not, again, not to sound like I'm above everyone, but I don't understand that.

• 1:45:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  I cannot relate to being happy that, that bad things are happening, even to people who are obviously doing great and doing much better. Why, why would I want bad things to happen to people?

• 1:45:18Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:45:19Speaker 01

  I don't get that.

• 1:45:20Dax Shepard?

  And then I'm, and then I'm taking some personal inventory during all this. I mean, my head was on fire during the whole monologue, right? Cause again, I'm expecting something really embarrassing to come my way.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Do you know what it was? I do.

• 1:45:31Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'll get to that part of it. So then I start taking a personal inventory. I go, hold on, how judgmental can you be of all this? Have you done this? I have. I've been on Conan. I had a movie coming out that I made that was up against expendables. And I had a good time talking about that their fight scenes. They move less and less and I'm thinking, A, this, they would never hear this.

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:46:00Dax Shepard?

  Um, it's objectively funny. Like what I'm saying is funny is this is an action movie where everyone fights like within a one foot thing.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:07Dax Shepard?

  And, um, so I've done it.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:10Dax Shepard?

  And, um, and I'm guilty of it. And then I go, okay, so what's some compassion I have for myself, which is like, I'm scared my movie's about to get blasted by these legends, which it did. I don't know what else to do. Trying to be funny and trying to make them happy. And I go, yeah, yeah. This is the whole situation. Um, so I'm not in judgment of anyone. I just, I'm not looking forward to getting blasted for all these people. So the monologue ends and somehow I made it out of it, right? And so did Jesse Eisenberg. We, we were spared. And then Aaron, of all people, my best friend, who I love, who I've told, when you hear something terrible about me, don't tell me. But I understand, like you feel this responsibility to your best friend, like you should know what. So I'm on Instagram, I'm gonna look at my DM and I see

• 1:46:54Dax Shepard?

  a clip of Nikki on Howard Stern the following day. And then Aaron says rude. And then I wrote, I'm not gonna watch this. I bet it will just hurt my feelings. And I leave it at that. And I decide I am not gonna watch it. And then in the comments, tons of people in the comments like, do you see Nikki's joke about you? So I've made the decision, I'm not going to. But you have to know that I now, I have, I have created 10 or 12 jokes that it might be, and they're so hurtful.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Listen.

• 1:47:24Dax Shepard?

  They're so.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  It's not that bad.

• 1:47:25Dax Shepard?

  It's nothing. Well, listen, I ended up.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:47:28Dax Shepard?

  I'm also telling Chris in this, right? I'm like, I guess, you know, she, she was bummed. She couldn't, didn't get to make the joke. So she went on, started to make the joke.

• 1:47:36Dax Shepard?

  And I just hope I never see it. I even wrote that in some comments. I'm no, I haven't seen that and hope never to see it.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:41Dax Shepard?

  And then last night, Kristen comes in, she goes, I watched the Nikki joke. It's nothing. All she said is all these people in the room are trying to probably avoid you so you don't ask them to come on your podcast.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:52Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, oh my God, that's nothing. The things I thought of.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:47:56Dax Shepard?

  That she could have said about me and were on the table. And there are my, these very deep fears of people thinking I'm riding someone's coattails and stuff. That's, I filled in so much. So at the end of the day, it was good. I heard what it was because I had assumed it was way, way worse.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:48:17Dax Shepard?

  And all of it is this crazy ride we're all on. For almost no reason at all.

• 1:48:23Speaker 01

  Unnecessary. I don't know. Before the show started, I was like very skeptical of what the monologue was gonna be. I don't like mean jokes for no reas- I, she, I thought, I mean, she is funny. Like, I'm not-

• 1:48:36Dax Shepard?

  She's really, really funny.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  She is really funny. And there were a couple jokes-

• 1:48:39Dax Shepard?

  And a good writer.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there were a couple that I thought were so good. The two fingers up for baby girl. For me, the best one was, oh, celebrities can do anything, um, except get the country to vote a certain way. Like, that was so good.

• 1:48:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  Like, making fun of the group, the institution is good, but it's the singling out.

• 1:49:03Dax Shepard?

  And there's a fucking close up on the person that's about to get shit on.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  And you see them. Their eyes are so wide. Like, Selena Gomez, like, she was just like, oh. I felt, I was like, oh, this is so upsetting.

• 1:49:15Dax Shepard?

  I don't think, why do you have to agree to that part of it? Like, hey, we, we got this award for you, but by the way, you're gonna have to probably be in a close up getting shit on to get this award. And, and I think that's why, that's why this friend is like, why, why on earth are we doing this?

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:49:28Dax Shepard?

  Because they have turned to that. I think Gervais started it, like, real hardcore.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  I know. It did not used to be this crazy, but anyway. So I already was going in, uh, Jess loves Nikki.

• 1:49:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  He's been following her for years. He thinks she's great and was really excited to see it. And we know, we had a lot of conversations before, where this, it's triggering for me. I don't like it. And then she was on a Vogue podcast before she did, she went on and she said she doesn't, like, it's, she can't really take the jokes about her. And I was like, yeah, what the fuck? Like, what is this?

• 1:50:05Dax Shepard?

  Who's winning?

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Anyway, so then she did it. We all watched it together and I was kinda like, you know, I, again, I thought that, I thought, I think she is very talented.

• 1:50:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  Um, but it was, that's, overall, that's hard for me to watch minus those globe, more global jokes. And then the next day, um, someone sent it to me, the Howard thing. And we were already sort of in a thi- me and you were already sort of in a thing that day.

• 1:50:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  Someone was like, did you see the joke about Dax? And I was like- What? And then I watched it. And I also was like so scared it was gonna be so mean.

• 1:50:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, about my looks and why is she with me?

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  I didn't know what it could be, but I was just like, this is gonna be bad. And then it was. And then I too was like, oh, that's really not a big deal. Also, it's not true. And I said, oh my God, I hope he never sees this because he already doesn't ask anyone.

• 1:50:59Dax Shepard?

  Right. I certainly would never ask anyone at an award show.

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  And it's really fucking annoying because it's annoying that you don't, like it's too a fault. And I was like, if he sees this, he's never gonna ask anyone ever again to come on. And that's hard, that's bad for us.

• 1:51:12Dax Shepard?

  And this goes to, by the way, this really goes to demonstrate for me personally, if you have an insecurity about something, it hurts so bad. Like had she made fun of my looks and then I'm too ugly to be with Kristen, that would have really been hurt for her. I didn't give a fuck about that because what did happen at the Golden Globes, the only time the podcast came up at the Golden Globes is three different people I ran into, each said, that's my favorite interview I've ever done in my life. All that really happened was people pulled me aside to say it was their favorite interview they've ever done. And I was like, I felt great. So she could say anything she would want about that and it doesn't bother me.

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  I sent it to Jess and I said, cool, period. And he was like, and he was like, no, I get it. He was like, I get it. It's funny until it's you. And I was like, exactly. That's the whole thing. And anyway, but um, that was that, I guess. But I was very, I was

• 1:52:09Dax Shepard?

  Well, yeah, we're perfectly aligned on her.

• 1:52:11Speaker 01

  Very defensive. Maybe I'm extra sensitive to it because I think there's already too much hatred out there right now, or in the last at least like eight to 12 years.

• 1:52:28Dax Shepard?

  You think it's symptomatic of this?

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  I don't think it's symptomatic.

• 1:52:31Dax Shepard?

  Larger diminishing of civility.

• 1:52:35Speaker 01

  I don't think it's symptomatic. I think it runs the risk of making it worse. I'm like, we're already, it's already bad. Like, don't add, don't add meanness. Like, it's not a good time for that. It's a time to add kindness. And I understand that's not like fun for an award show.

• 1:52:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  But I just, I don't It sucks out there. Like, people are so mean to each other. And even this with the fires, like, people are saying such horrible stuff.

• 1:53:04Dax Shepard?

  Are they?

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  The rich people, they have other homes they can go to.

• 1:53:07Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:08Speaker 01

  Fuck you!

• 1:53:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I was thinking, like, yeah, if you're, um, I mean, I said it out loud when I was like, when it, when there was the moment where I was like, wow, could the whole, the whole city completely be razed right now? I was like, yeah, there's some people down south.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  That are excited.

• 1:53:22Dax Shepard?

  That are like, yeah, fuck that place.

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  I think it's extreme to have these thoughts, but...

• 1:53:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's like the liberals were happy when COVID deniers died of COVID. That happened too.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. But also, that's a, to me, that's slightly different because those are choices. These aren't choices. Like, I think, um, I mean, that's still bad, of course.

• 1:53:41Dax Shepard?

  You had to live in this fancy place. You could have lived somewhere that doesn't catch out in fire every six months.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  But then there's hurricanes, there's this, there's that. But I guess that's my whole point is maybe some people here would be like, well, hurricanes, like, I guess I don't really care about you, Florida. But it's all bad. It's like, it's all bad. Everyone should have compassion and help. And most people do. I mean, I've gotten so many sweet, like, check-ins, random check-ins. And also, like, where can I donate? What do you know, like, on the ground here, what's going on, whatever? It's very kind, mostly. But then there's just people who I'm just shocked by.

• 1:54:22Dax Shepard?

  I have to mention, if you're like, to the letter of the law creationists, believing end of times Christian, this is so biblical.

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:54:32Dax Shepard?

  How are they not going like, other than a flood, this would be the next best thing?

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  Well, I guess that was another thing people were saying, like, the Globes joke about God zero, which that was hilarious. Like Mario Lopez, it was the count of, of... What, who people had thanked.

• 1:54:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, moms.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like, oh, yeah, yeah. Mario Lopez one, God zero.

• 1:54:54Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  And that was hilarious. And then people were like, see, that happened. And now it's like, God's mad that no one thanked him.

• 1:55:05Dax Shepard?

  Well, he's very sensitive. He's like me.

• 1:55:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:55:08Dax Shepard?

  You think he would not be sensitive. He's so powerful, but he's very sensitive, just like me. He's very vain.

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  Oh, geez.

• 1:55:13Dax Shepard?

  Afraid people are gonna take his looks, his social standing.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  Well, that, it's hard to be made fun of. It's hard to be made fun of. It just is. Anyway.

• 1:55:24Dax Shepard?

  Well, that was, that was actually a very fun detour.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  That, yeah, yeah. And that's it for Jenny.

• 1:55:30Dax Shepard?

  That was it for Jenny?

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:31Dax Shepard?

  Um, I do wanna go out saying like, I would not want anyone to hear all my opinions I just said and have anything against Nikki Glaser. I'm like rooting for her and I think she's really, really talented.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  Of you and, and I agree.

• 1:55:45Dax Shepard?

  I was unpunked. Like, it was like, let's get celebrities in a tricky situation and see if they act badly. And I was like, okay, well, this is the only job I'm ever gonna get and I'll take it.

• 1:55:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:55:55Dax Shepard?

  Uh, so I'm not really in judgment of anyone.

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:59Dax Shepard?

  I'm just, uh, I'm saying, for me, I was in deep fear.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:03Dax Shepard?

  That everything I, I'm afraid people think about me was confirmed and then it wasn't.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  And she's also, she's a Swiftie. She's a major Swiftie.

• 1:56:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, is she?

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  She's been to like, she went to like a million of the shows.

• 1:56:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  And she's sober.

• 1:56:16Dax Shepard?

  Well, she is?

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:56:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:19Dax Shepard?

  We should maybe have her on to talk through this whole thing.

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  I was like.

• 1:56:22Dax Shepard?

  Like, at first I was like, I never on a rewarder.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  That's how, when I saw it, I was like, guess who's not coming on our show ever?

• 1:56:29Dax Shepard?

  Yes, but then now I feel like the bigger version of me would be like to have her on, try to have, um, let's just see her conversation about it.

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we could. Anyway, all right.

• 1:56:38Dax Shepard?

  All right, love you.

• 1:56:39Speaker 01

  Love you.

• 1:56:54Dax Shepard?

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