Pod Insights Scamfluencers Paul and Patricia Bragg: The Mother of All Wellness Scams | 158 About this episode Paul Bragg used showmanship and outrageous claims to grow his health food company into a wellness empire. But after he died in his 90s and passed the company to his daughter, Patricia, people started asking questions. And soon it’s revealed that Paul and Patricia’s empire was built on a foundation of lies… about their products, and about themselves.
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Transcript 9,891 words · 13 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Sarah Hagi? Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
0:14 Scaachi Koul? Sarah, is there any, let's say, woo-woo hippie health thing that you believe in, but is maybe a little dubious?
0:23 Sarah Hagi? You know what? I'm just not that kind of person.
0:25 Scaachi Koul? At all?
0:26 Sarah Hagi? I like medicine. I want hard drugs to cure me. You know what I mean?
0:30 Scaachi Koul? Yeah. I mean, I believe in doctors and Advil and medicine, but I also feel like tumor can probably fix it. Like, whatever's wrong with you, just take some tumors. See what happens.
0:40 Sarah Hagi? I don't think that's really woo-woo, though.
0:42 Scaachi Koul? It's a little woo-woo.
0:43 Sarah Hagi? I consider woo-woo to be like, leave it outside so it absorbs the moon's energy.
0:50 Scaachi Koul? Right.
0:51 Sarah Hagi? You know, this is a healthy thing that I'll have some of, and if it works, it works.
0:55 Scaachi Koul? OK, OK, good balance. Well, I'm asking because today, we're going to tackle a mainstay of alternative wellness culture: apple cider vinegar and the outrageous family that made it a household staple.
1:12 Scaachi Koul? It's October 1997 in Santa Barbara, California, and a girl is celebrating her 13th birthday. Her name is Katherine Elizabeth Hudson, but when she grows up, she'll be known as Katy Perry. And this is a big day for young Katy. She's receiving her very first guitar. Big presents are not the norm in Katy's home. Her parents are Pentecostal pastors struggling to make ends meet, but they recently made a very generous family friend. Katy's mom was reading a book called "The Miracle of Fasting." It claims that fasting flushes deadly poisons from the body, fights acid crystals, and removes mucus. The health theories really struck a chord with Katy's mom, so she reached out to its author, a woman named Patricia Bragg.
1:57 Scaachi Koul? Patricia wrote back, and they struck up a friendship. Patricia's an energetic and tiny lady in her 60s who often dresses head to toe in pink or rainbow with a pink cowboy hat on her head. In spite of her quirky appearance, Patricia is a big deal. She's the CEO of a health food company called Brag Live Food Products that was founded by her father, Paul Bragg. Patricia became a sort of guru for Katy's family, and they influenced her, too. She even joined their church. Patricia has had a big impact on Katy. Katy's mom makes her drink Bragg's apple cider vinegar to soothe her vocal cords. Patricia warned Katy against underwired bras, claiming they restrict blood circulation.
2:38 Scaachi Koul? And today, on her 13th birthday, she grants Katy's biggest wish by giving her a guitar. Here's Katy talking about that gift years later in a promo video for Brag Live Foods.
2:49 Speaker 02 She put up the money for the guitar, but she said, "Oh, the church paid for it," or whatever. It was a collective, but you know you did it. It was awesome. And it was really the point, I think, for me where I was like, "Oh, someone believes in me."
3:03 Sarah Hagi? That is sweet that, you know, one person believed in her and then we got teenage dream as a result. However, this is crazy because Bragg's apple cider vinegar is the one that you see everywhere.
3:17 Scaachi Koul? It's the apple cider vinegar. You know it.
3:19 Sarah Hagi? It's the one. The bottle is so recognizable, and I had no idea there was this like weird Katy Perry connection.
3:25 Scaachi Koul? Yeah. Well, Katy continues to follow the Braggs' health tips even as her career blows up and she becomes one of the biggest pop stars in the world. And in 2016, Katy meets an actor named Orlando Bloom, and on their first date, they bond over their love of apple cider vinegar. Don't you think that's romantic?
3:46 Sarah Hagi? That sounds like something famous people would believe is like a beautiful connection. Like, "Oh, my God, we both drink apple cider vinegar. It's meant to be."
3:55 Scaachi Koul? Well, they have to start somewhere, and before long, this love connection leads to a new business opportunity. In 2019, Patricia announces she's going to retire, and she makes Katy an incredible offer. She invites her and Orlando to be among the investors taking over the business, and the couple jumps at the opportunity. It's an exciting moment, but this new purchase is going to come back to bite Katy because Patricia and Paul have spent the last 100 years making health promises they absolutely cannot keep. The company has a huge, intense fan base that's used to being lied to. And soon, Katy Perry is going to hear them roar.
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5:09 Speaker 04 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. Listen to "Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe" wherever you get your podcasts.
5:33 Scaachi Koul? From Wondery, I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Haggie. And this is Scamfluencers.
5:46 Scaachi Koul? For more than a century, the Bragg family rode the rising tide of wellness and disinformation. They gained loyal followers and amassed a huge fortune. But Paul and Patricia's empire was built on a foundation of lies, about their products and about themselves. We're about to pull back the curtain on the family that inspired generations of health food trends. There's influential strongmen, questionable paternity claims, and a whole lot of fermentation. This is Paul and Patricia Bragg, the mother of all wellness scams.
6:21 Scaachi Koul? A century before Katy Perry buys into Bragg, the company's founder, Paul Bragg, was a sickly teenager in Washington, DC. It's 1911, and 16-year-old Paul has been diagnosed with tuberculosis. Paul's family decides to try a new treatment for his disease, a sun sanatorium in the Swiss Alps. The institution is run by a doctor named Auguste Rollier. Auguste is an academic-looking man with a tidy mustache and little round glasses. He was inspired by a Nobel Prize-winning Danish doctor who discovered that sunlight therapy can help many ailments, including TB.
6:56 Scaachi Koul? At a Guste's Clinic, nurses roll Paul's bed close to the window for indirect exposure to sunlight and fresh air. He drinks one quart of milk per day and a glass of enriched eggnog at bedtime. As he gets stronger, he gets to go outside for sunbathing and physical exercise. In 1913, after two years at the sun sanatorium, it seems like this unconventional approach has worked. Now 18, Paul returns to America cured of tuberculosis. Later, he tells people that he made a pledge to God. In exchange for getting his health back, he would commit his life to showing others how to achieve peak physical fitness.
7:33 Sarah Hagi? OK, you know what's so funny about this? I feel like there's this common online sentiment where people are like, "I need to be sent away to a sanatorium and have my smelling salts by the sea." But they're not thinking of the nasty shit you have to do, like drinking... And I love eggnog, but drinking a glass of enriched eggnog at bedtime? That's a part of the things you have to do there. There's nasty shit. There's leeches.
7:58 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, the lobotomies, I think, are probably the headline.
8:04 Scaachi Koul? OK, well, you should know that Paul is a very unreliable narrator of his own life. But he is pretty consistent in talking about his childhood bout with TB. And he does go on to focus on athletics. According to Paul, when he gets back to the States, he's an amateur boxer and wrestler. And he joins the military, where he becomes Director of Athletics for two regiments. Paul soon gets opportunities to prove his vitality. According to local newspaper articles, he makes not one, but two daring water rescues in the span of just a few months. The first time, he pulls a drowning man out of the ocean to safety. Then, he rescues a friend swept up in the Shenandoah River. President Woodrow Wilson sends him a letter commending him for his bravery. About a month later, Paul moves to Missouri to run the athletic department
8:49 Scaachi Koul? at a military academy. But he has bigger ambitions. He wants to be a leader in the realm of health and fitness. So, in trying to establish himself as a brand, he makes some, let's say, bold claims. Like that he taught President Theodore Roosevelt's sons how to box and wrestle, and that he once jumped from the Brooklyn Bridge.
9:11 Scaachi Koul? In 1915, Paul gets married. He and his wife go on to have two daughters. And for a while, the family bounces around the country as Paul finds jobs that let him spread the good word of fitness. Reports from the time claim that he was the physical director of New York City Public Schools and a wrestling and basketball coach. And in some of his tellings, including the official Bragg Company story, this is also around when he gets his PhD in nutrition. And Sarah, I know this might come as a surprise, but we couldn't find any official records that verify this account.
9:44 Sarah Hagi? Hmm, you don't say. And it's not like he got it off the internet. So I don't know where he got that PhD from.
9:50 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, that predates that little scam. Well, sometime in the early 1920s, Paul moves his family west to California. He works at the YMCA in Los Angeles, but he doesn't want to be limited to his YMCA members. Paul made a commitment to spread his ideas about health and fitness worldwide. He spent his early life building up an image for himself. And now it's time to sell it.
10:16 Scaachi Koul? In the 1920s, Paul opens his health food store in downtown Los Angeles. He claims it's the nation's first. The shelves are lined with Bragg brand products for shoppers looking to improve their health, like Bragg Liquid Aminos. It's basically a type of soy sauce made by soaking soybeans in hydrochloric acid. Then there's Live Sprinkle, which is supposedly a healthier substitute for salt. The main ingredient in Live Sprinkle is salt. Paul's ideas and products place him among the growing ecosystem of Southern California health weirdos, like Gaylord Hauser, a chiropractor with a naturopathy degree who was the inventor of the celebrity diet. He claimed he cured his tuberculosis by eating 36 lemons a day. Greta Garbo and Marlene Dietrich were big fans.
11:01 Scaachi Koul? Or Bernard McFadden, a health fanatic who founded Physical Culture Magazine and popularized fasting in America. He is the originator of the keto diet and also promoted eating grapes to cure cancer. I just want to pause here for a moment to say that his name at birth was Bernard, and he changed it to Bernard because it sounds more like a lion's roar.
11:24 Sarah Hagi? Wow, it's crazy that people like this are always the same, no matter what era they're in. Like, it's still the same weird delusion. And you're like, I guess I should have to go with it and pretend that that's OK.
11:36 Scaachi Koul? Hey, being a freak is a lifetime appointment. Well, Paul sets himself apart from this crowd with his media savvy. He gives lectures, hosts a radio show, and writes an advice column in the LA Times called "Health Hints." In the column, he says that people with chronic constipation are notoriously gloomy and that eating, quote, "poisonous food mixtures" is akin to suicide. He praises, quote, "drugless practitioners" and says the pill addicts of the world could learn something from them. He's also boosting his profile by organizing in-person events, like a hiking group called the Wanderlusters Hiking Club. Paul starts putting out a goal for himself and his followers: become centurions. In some of his lectures, he promises people that, quote,
12:21 Scaachi Koul? "You can banish all disease and live to be 100 years." Sometimes, he goes even further, like in this interview from a bit later in his life.
12:29 Speaker 05 I don't want to live just 100 years. I want to live indefinitely. I want to prove to the world that it's possible.
12:39 Scaachi Koul? At this point, Paul is about 30, and he looks like the epitome of California health: thick head of hair, sun-kissed skin, a muscular bod, and a wide, straight smile. Sarah, take a look at the photos from these group outings.
12:52 Sarah Hagi? OK, these are scary photos. This is out of a horror movie. This is like a flashback they have in Get Out.
13:01 Scaachi Koul? OK, but what is it?
13:03 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, I mean, the first photo, there are dozens of people hiking, you know, in the hills. Very typical LA scene. And the second photo, they're in front of a house on like a huge yard. They all have their arms out in like a T shape, like they're all working out together. And these are like adult babies. Like, it looks like a scary cult. It looks like somewhere you and I, if we were there, we'd never, we would be disappeared. Anyway, I'm scared. Keep going, please.
13:33 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, I am also scared. And in the midst of Paul's rise, he befriends fellow health nut Bernard, who becomes a kind of mentor to him. Paul writes for Bernard's Physical Fitness Magazine for a while, and adopts many of his ideas. He starts a newsletter through his health food store, and Bernard inspires him to take his lectures on the road. Touring the country will get his message far beyond the LA health craze bubble. Paul is building a dedicated audience who look to him for tips to stay fit. But to be the global influence he promised God that he would become, Paul needs to turn his loyal followers into paying customers. Starting in 1929, Paul sets out on a traveling speaking series. He advertises himself as the president of the National Diet and Health Association
14:18 Scaachi Koul? of America, an organization he seems to have created himself. Photos from a few years later show him standing on a stage in front of shelves lined with glass bottles, dressed in an all-white suit. His vibe is somewhere between the Wizard of Oz, a carnival barker, and a real medical doctor, which, to be clear, he is not. Paul is spreading his own good word and building up his own mythology. Like, he starts telling people he competed as a member of the US wrestling team in both the 1908 London Olympics and the 1912 Stockholm Olympics. The only thing is, he would have been 13 and 17 years old. And according to Paul's earlier life story, that's the same time he was at the Sun Sanatorium in Switzerland.
15:02 Scaachi Koul? Oh, and the Encyclopedia of American Wrestling does not list him as a member of the teams in any of those years.
15:09 Sarah Hagi? These are really crazy lies to tell. I mean, even outside of the internet age, very easy to verify how old someone was and where they were at a specific point in time. Yeah.
15:20 Scaachi Koul? But Paul makes the Olympic story seem more believable, and his diet and fitness advice more impressive, by telling another lie. This one becomes the foundation of his whole enterprise. He claims that he was actually born in 1881, not in 1895. We're all used to people saying that they're younger than they are, but Paul is trying to make himself seem older by nearly 15 years. Presumably, that's so people would look at him and think, "Wow, you look so good for your age," and then buy into his health program.
15:53 Sarah Hagi? I mean, that's pretty genius. You have to show people what you're selling them. And he is selling this idea that he's never gonna die. And you know what? You could never die if you just kind of keep changing when you were born.
16:07 Sarah Hagi? No, you'll still die, Sarah.
16:11 Sarah Hagi? No, you'll live forever. I mean, in the sense of you can lie about never dying.
16:19 Sarah Hagi? Yes, you can. You can. Imagine an 80-year-old being like, "I'm actually 100 and something." You'd be like, "Well, you're never gonna die." No, Sarah, that's not how that works. It's flawless logic. It really is flawless logic. Yeah, I mean, we don't even have time to get into that one.
16:36 Scaachi Koul? But Paul's marketing skills start to pay off, and his shows are packed. Audiences are lured in by his ads and claims of expertise, and they're entertained by his feats of strength. Then, he starts telling them his kooky diet theories, like that tonsillitis is caused by eating mucus-forming foods, especially white bread. Paul hates white bread. He blames it for causing asthma and stomach gas. Here he is talking about some of his philosophies in a later interview.
17:02 Speaker 05 You're a universe within yourself. If you learn to put material in your body that causes no poxemia, no mucus, no obstruction, no piling up of cholesterol and fat, you have found the secret of life.
17:25 Scaachi Koul? The lectures themselves may be free, but a collection basket is passed around halfway through. Attendees can also pay for a private session with Paul for the low, low price of $20, the equivalent of almost $500 today. Plus, they can buy his book, "Here Yourself," to study at home. Paul is making money, and he's also making his mark. After one talk in Oakland, he has a consultation with a sickly 15-year-old high school dropout named Jack Lelaine. Sarah, do you know Jack Lelaine?
17:56 Sarah Hagi? I don't, but I feel like he, I don't know, probably is responsible for something stupid.
18:04 Scaachi Koul? Jack Lalanne is known as the godfather of fitness. He used to host this fitness TV show and fitness clubs. You know, he actually popularized the jumping jack. Did you ever watch Arrested Development? Do you remember that character Uncle Jack that's played by Martin Short? Yeah. That's fake Jack Lalanne. Oh, that's genius. Yeah. Well, during their one-on-one time, Jack tells Paul that he eats cake, pies, and ice cream at every meal. Paul calls him a walking garbage can. It's a moment of awakening for Jack. And years later, after he becomes a fitness icon, Jack says that this meeting with Paul is what spurred him to become a wellness crusader. These tours have made Paul one of the biggest health and fitness influencers in the country. But with this attention comes scrutiny,
18:49 Scaachi Koul? and someone else is about to learn about Paul's miraculous claims: the US government.
18:56 Scaachi Koul? In the late 1920s, Paul takes his enterprise to the next level by starting a mail-order business. It's the beginning of the Great Depression, so most people don't have a lot of disposable income. But those same economic issues mean that people are eager for cheap, quick fixes to their problems, making them vulnerable to fraud. And right now, there isn't much federal regulation to protect people from quack doctors. People are primed to eat up Paul's advice like so many supplements. And now, it's more accessible than ever. All you have to do is send a few dollars in the mail to his company, Live Food Products, Inc. One of the products available through the USPS is Glantex, a medicine that Paul says makes you feel 20 years younger. He claims it feeds the glands and rejuvenates every cell in the body.
19:41 Scaachi Koul? Paul says he developed Glantex after 10 years of experiments, and that it's been used on thousands of patients with great success. You can write in to get a free 30-day trial. And after that, it's just $5 a month, which would be just over $100 today. In reality, Glantex is actually just a mix of alfalfa, green extract, oats, carrots, celery, lettuce, spinach, cabbage, orkic substance, and pituitary gland substance. And Paul's health claims about the pills are dubious. Paul is, at best, a fabulist, and at worst, a liar. But I can't help but wonder if he actually believes in the product somewhere deep down. What do you think?
20:23 Sarah Hagi? I don't know. I think Paul believes mostly in himself. I think he's trying things out, but believes he is the key to these answers. And he's the key to changing how people think about health and wellness. And he's gonna just keep trying until he lands on something that, quote unquote, works.
20:41 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, everything about Paul's approach is very familiar to what we see on TikTok or on Instagram every day. And expanding to the mail is good for Paul's bank account, even if we don't know if he believes in the product. But it also draws the attention of a federal authority. The postmaster general gets wind of Paul's business and assigns agents to investigate him. It's illegal to use the post office to carry out a scheme. In December 1930, a mail fraud order is issued against Paul and some of his affiliated companies. The case centers on Glantex and one of Paul's publications titled "The Truth About Sex." The postmaster says it doesn't conform with the postal regulations of the time, although I'm not really sure in what way.
21:23 Scaachi Koul? "We couldn't get our hands on a copy, but it sounds like the book is pretty sexist and medically unsound." On the other hand, Paul apparently thinks women should enjoy sex and advocates for birth control.
21:33 Sarah Hagi? Wow, that is so revolutionary of him at the time, and still, frankly.
21:38 Scaachi Koul? Well, in theory, Paul shouldn't be able to use the mail to distribute his materials or products after this all goes down. But according to one of the leading anti-Huckster publications of the time, Paul gets around the order by simply advertising under his mother's maiden name. Paul seems to have gotten around the mail cops, but he's about to face someone singularly determined to take down his type of wellness scammer: a public health official.
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23:07 Speaker 07 Journalist Tristan Redman goes where no son-in-law should ever go. Deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great-grandmother. Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
23:35 Scaachi Koul? It's March 1935, about five years after Paul's run-in with the postmaster general. And Dr. George C. Ruland is fed up. He's a sober-looking man with a sensible, professional haircut, which really fits his job: the district health officer for Washington DC. He kind of looks like Luke Perry if you squint.
23:54 Sarah Hagi? Oh, yeah. I mean, he definitely looks like a man who means business. And he has one of those old-timey faces. Don't you think he looks like an old Canadian president? I can't get over it.
24:04 Scaachi Koul? You know the vibe. Well, George has one goal: making Washington DC an unwelcome place for what he calls, quote, "health propagandists." These are people like Paul, who prey upon gullible, often desperate victims. George knows that the money these quacks steal should be spent on real medical advice and treatment, and it's a lot of money. He estimates that these frauds are pulling in $50 million a year, over 1.1 billion in today's dollars. Specifically, he thinks Paul is earning about eight grand per week from his private consultations, which is more than $185,000 in today's money. George takes public health seriously.
24:45 Scaachi Koul? He was the city health commissioner for Milwaukee during the global flu epidemic of 1918 and responded aggressively to the disease. He ordered the temporary closure of many public gathering places and prohibited loitering in the city saloons, which was a big deal for the home of Miller High Life. But his swift action helped Milwaukee weather the flu much better than other American cities and likely saved thousands of lives. So this is someone who actually knows what they're talking about, basically? Yes, this is an expert. And George learns that Paul is planning to deliver a series of lectures in Washington, DC to discuss the healthy living tips he supposedly picked up from Pacific Islanders. Paul advertises the lecture as, quote, "South Sees Magic."
25:29 Scaachi Koul? George sees a golden opportunity. He sends some of his people to collect information by attending the first lectures and taking Paul's paid course. They report back that Paul offered to teach them how to live to be 100, regain their eyesight, and cure themselves of gallstones. Then, George enlists a health department chemist to get to the bottom of what is in Paul's miracle products. While Paul claims his products can cure all sorts of diseases, the chemist says that they're actually mostly made of dehydrated vegetables, alfalfa, and salt. Eventually, George has enough evidence to arrest Paul for violating a DC law that prohibits practicing medicine without a license. Paul is set to deliver another lecture on April 24 at the Masonic Temple.
26:12 Scaachi Koul? It's a huge building full of gilded walls and ornate decorative plaster molds. And the room is packed. That's when George makes his move. He has the cops swarm Paul's dressing room to arrest him before he goes onstage. The police take Paul away, leaving the event in chaos. But while the police raid can stop Paul's lecture, they can't stop his opening act: a group of four Hawaiian musicians wearing leis and strumming guitars softly, standing in front of shelves lined with black and green bottles. Then, one of Paul's employees takes the stage. She's his financial secretary, but she's wearing a nurse's uniform. A newspaper article about the event describes her as blonde and buxom.
26:54 Scaachi Koul? She announces to the audience that Paul has been arrested, and the crowd erupts in protest. There's actually a photo of her with Paul that runs in the paper. Can you take a look at this photo and the headline that they used?
27:05 Sarah Hagi? The headline says, "Lost Dimey's Health Talk: South Seas Magic Is Lost to Audience." And it's a photo of Paul doing a demonstration with an assistant. And I guess the point is, the government is stopping people from learning about their health, correct?
27:21 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, it's a pretty loaded headline. Well, George is satisfied in the meantime. There are plenty of other quacks out there, but he's taken Paul off the streets for at least one night. Now, he just has to hope that Paul gets convicted. But George doesn't realize that Paul is going to get help from an unlikely source: the very people he's been fleecing. Paul has positioned himself as a pioneer in the field of health. And at 40 years old, he's really making history. Paul is the first person prosecuted under Washington's anti-quack statute. Almost as soon as he's arrested, Paul is freed on a $1,000 bail. The next night, hundreds of people visit his lawyer's office with sealed envelopes of cash to help pay for his legal fees.
28:03 Scaachi Koul? The next day after that, Paul arrives for his first day in court. And the government comes out swinging. They outline all of their evidence, including the chemist's findings about Bragg's bogus products. For his part, Paul has a crowd of supporters who fill the courtroom and applaud so loudly they disrupt the proceedings. When Paul leaves the courthouse after the first day, he's greeted by 800, mostly middle-aged female fans. He gives a rousing speech highlighting his main defense: that he's being persecuted, the government is trampling on his free speech, and American values demand that the people stand with him. He asks the crowd to give three cheers for Abraham Lincoln, and one of his fans cries out, quote, "There never was an emancipator who wasn't persecuted."
28:47 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, I mean, I guess it's the same kind of thing about being obsessed with like freedom, right? Someone like Paul doesn't have much to stand on as far as factual evidence goes, that he has no choice but to turn this into something bigger about government controlling what you can and cannot do and consume and what is considered medicine and health. And then in turn, turning it into a type of like persecution complex of, see, I'm so correct that they are trying to silence me and of course, these people will eat it up.
29:20 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, it's very RFK Junior. And that night, Paul returns to the Masonic Temple where he was arrested days earlier and gives a speech where he repeats a lot of the same points. Paul's followers are fired up. They fill up the benches for the entire trial, which lasts a week. Two weeks after that, the judge hands down the verdict. Paul is found guilty and he's ordered to pay a fine of $100. That's about $2,300 today. Paul is chastened, sort of. He promises not to violate the law again, but he also tells a reporter that he's toured in almost every state in the country and this is the first time he's ever had an issue.
30:01 Scaachi Koul? He says he's heading back to California, but don't worry, he tells the reporter that he'll be back to lecture in DC in the fall. Paul has made it through his biggest legal challenge yet, almost completely unscathed. Now, he can go back to growing his business. And after decades of health hustling, he'll meet the person who will help him grow Bragg Live Foods from a successful business into an empire. It's January 1956, more than 20 years after Paul's run in with the law and he's back in a courtroom. But this time, the court is in Los Angeles and he's not the star of the show. That honor belongs to the pint-sized, 26-year-old Patricia Bragg. This is the same Patricia who gave Katy Perry the guitar at the beginning of this episode, Sarah.
30:46 Scaachi Koul? And today, Patricia is wearing her blonde curls pinned back and is dressed for court in all black. Patricia is in family court with her husband, Robert Bragg. Robert is a chiropractor, a health food store owner, and Paul's son. And until today, he was accusing Patricia and his father of a crime. We know that Patricia was born in the Bay Area in 1929, but we don't know much about her life between then and when she moved to Southern California and started dating Robert. They've been married for about four years now. Later, Patricia claims to have known the Bragg family all her life. She says that she was, quote, "programmed to marry Paul's son."
31:26 Scaachi Koul? It might have been predetermined that Patricia would marry Robert, but it definitely wasn't fate for them to stay married. According to Patricia, her husband told her that, "Actually, he's not the marriage type. He was never home for dinner on time, and his behavior literally gave her a nervous rash." Unable to deal with her flaky husband, Patricia got attention and support from her father-in-law. Not much has changed for Paul in the last couple of decades. He's been consistently lecturing, promoting his products, and growing the Bragg brand. He still has a loose relationship to the truth. A few years back, he did an event where he claimed a four-month-old baby would perform strongman feats onstage. And he's still getting dinged by the law every so often, like an FTC order in the early 50s banning one of his supplements.
32:10 Scaachi Koul? Even with these legal warnings, Patricia totally buys into Paul's teachings. They've grown close. So close that when she filed for divorce, Robert made an explosive charge that Patricia and his father were, quote, "romancing" and that the two had traveled together as man and wife. When a judge asked why he didn't try to get his wife back, Robert said, "Oh, sir, I don't want her back."
32:35 Sarah Hagi? That's disgusting. These people are absolutely disgusting.
32:39 Scaachi Koul? Cursed, cursed family.
32:40 Sarah Hagi? Oh, my God. Like, yeah, no wonder he wouldn't want to take his wife back if she was allegedly you-know-what with his father.
32:49 Scaachi Koul? Well, today, Robert is withdrawing those charges. Patricia sits in court and listens as Robert says that, "Actually, he was just angry after their separation." This is a big event. It even gets covered in the LA Times under the headline, "Son Drops His Charge Linking Wife and Father." The story is accompanied by a photo of the trio in the courtroom holding hands after Robert drops the charge. Paul and Patricia are beaming, and Robert, not so much. Take a look.
33:17 Sarah Hagi? This is nasty work. I mean, yes, she is sitting in between her father-in-law and husband. All of their hands are on one another, but the body language is clearly like, "Oh yeah, me and Paul are together, and Robert, thanks for your service," you know? Yeah, it's just kind of gross. Like, Paul is a nasty piece of work. Patricia's nasty. Robert seems checked out, to be honest.
33:48 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, it's a weird dynamic. And Robert and Patricia's divorce is finalized a few months later. And while she might be down a husband, she's gained a new mentor and father figure in Paul. While Patricia's marriage to Robert may have made news at the time, it quickly recedes from public memory. And that allows them to introduce a new lie to the story of Brag Live Foods, that Paul is Patricia's biological father.
34:12 Sarah Hagi? If she's claiming that Paul is her biological father, now she is someone who was once married to her biological brother and accused of cheating on her husband slash biological brother with her father-in-law slash biological father. It just seems like such an overly complicated way to bring someone into your business.
34:35 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, it's a wreck. And Patricia has clearly learned from Paul's loose grasp on the truth and flair for dramatic personal narratives. She rushes to position herself as the rightful heir to the Brag legacy. She starts sharing fake memories from her childhood with Paul. But she does have some seemingly legit credentials. About a year and a half after her divorce, Patricia patents her own health invention, a "douche or enema device that can be mounted between a water supply and a discharge nozzle." But Patricia and official Brag marketing claim that this made her the youngest woman to be granted a US patent, which is definitely not true. A couple of years after that, Patricia gets an even bigger spotlight when Paul launches a new TV show.
35:20 Scaachi Koul? It's called "Paul Bragg Health and Happiness Show." It features Paul and Patricia wearing matching tracksuits as they lead the home viewer in an exercise routine. Take a look at this photo of them in their coordinated outfits. Very cool.
35:33 Sarah Hagi? Yes, it's a black and white photo. Paul is getting old. And Patricia, they're just wearing these tracksuits and they look like they're in the middle of activity.
35:44 Scaachi Koul? They look like Joanne and Hal. Remember Hal and Joanne?
35:47 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, I mean, we can't introduce people not to Body Break.
35:50 Scaachi Koul? I think, actually, this is a perfect time to introduce Americans to Body Break.
35:54 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, I mean, growing up in Canada, we would get commercials of...
35:59 Scaachi Koul? They were these PSAs for Hal.
36:01 Sarah Hagi? This couple, Hal Johnson and Joanne McLeod, who also never admitted to being a couple.
36:05 Scaachi Koul? You know what? Me and my dad ran into them once at the mall and they were holding hands.
36:09 Sarah Hagi? Oh, my God. Anyway, they would appear on TV all the time, dressed in tracksuits and...
36:14 Scaachi Koul? Body Break.
36:14 Sarah Hagi? It was called Body Break. It was just like a quick commercial to show you how to get up and move your body. And it is very, very important to all Canadians.
36:23 Scaachi Koul? Yeah.
36:23 Sarah Hagi? Every single Canadian who grew up in like the 90s, early 2000s, it's all about Body Break.
36:29 Scaachi Koul? These guys are evil Hal and Joanne.
36:31 Sarah Hagi? They're literally their tethers. They're their nasty tethers.
36:37 Scaachi Koul? Well, while Patricia and Paul may have found each other under unusual circumstances, they are a match made in hell of heaven. Patricia is Paul's most devoted follower and she's positioned to take over the company. And when she does, she'll make sure Brag pseudoscience stays popular with a whole new generation of wellness buffs. After years of learning under Paul, Patricia becomes CEO of Brag Live Foods in the 1970s. At this point, Paul is nearing 80, in his actual age, and spending most of his time in Hawaii, where he teaches low-impact fitness classes on the beach for free. As CEO, Patricia positions Brag for the counterculture movement. She sells books and participates in bigger festivals, tours the world,
37:21 Scaachi Koul? and sells her skills as a consultant to the stars, making Brag a hot brand in Hollywood. Patricia also refocuses the business end of things. In 1972, she publishes a book about apple cider vinegar. Brag Live Food Products has been selling ACVs since almost the beginning of the company, but Patricia is setting it up to be their signature product. Sarah, tell me what you know about apple cider vinegar.
37:46 Sarah Hagi? It's one of those things that I heard about, looked up and realized it was kind of like bullshit, or the studies were based on taking enormous quantities. You know, when the science is kind of flubbed in that way. But it is a mainstay ingredient-wise in so many health food products. You don't even think about it, almost.
38:04 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, it's really, really common now. Well, apple cider vinegar is made by double fermenting apple juice. People use it in salad dressing and other cooking, or they just dilute it in water and drink it. It's a good thing ACV is so easy to use. Patricia's brochure says that it can help you lose weight, gain weight, treat heart disease, baldness, kidney problems, and even female troubles.
38:27 Sarah Hagi? OK, well, now that I know it helps with female troubles,
38:30 Scaachi Koul? Yeah.
38:31 Sarah Hagi? get me a pint of ACV right now.
38:35 Scaachi Koul? Well, Patricia is keeping busy as an evangelist for the Bragg name and brand. But in July 1976, she gets some scary news. Paul has had a heart attack while surfing in Hawaii. He survives, thanks to CPR performed by a nurse on the scene, but he's permanently weakened. And just a few months later, he dies on a trip to Miami. But Paul achieves one of his biggest victories in death. Since he's been lying about his age for practically his whole life, newspapers report that he was 95 when he died, rather than his true age of 81. And sure, 81 isn't exactly young, but the idea that he lived that long and that a 95-year-old was surfing makes the whole Bragg program look much more legit.
39:18 Scaachi Koul? His protege, Jack LaLanne, emcees his funeral. Patricia is a passionate caretaker of the Bragg legacy, but as the culture welcomes wellness trends into the mainstream, she will be the person having to answer for their broken promises.
39:43 Speaker 08 In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and The Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now,
40:26 Speaker 08 plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.
40:36 Speaker 04 A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors, the lane is clear, and then boom, impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene, and the driver of the pickup, he doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences, and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.
41:21 Speaker 04 Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
41:45 Scaachi Koul? In the years following Paul's death, Patricia takes her stewardship of the Bragg brand very seriously. She's assuming control of the company right when wellness is hitting prime time. In 1979, 60 Minutes airs a segment about the concept, landing it in living rooms across America. Here's Dan Rather introducing the segment.
42:03 Speaker 09 There's a word you don't hear every day. It means exactly what you might think it means: the opposite of illness. It's a movement that is catching on all over the country among doctors, nurses, and others concerned with medical care.
42:16 Scaachi Koul? Patricia continues in Paul's footsteps, marketing herself as a life extension specialist through speaking tours. She levels up their product line with apple cider vinegar drinks, ACV with honey, and the hippie staple, nutritional yeast. She also makes a change to the marketing of their ACV. You know the cloudy sediment in a bottle of ACV? It's basically the bacteria that feeds on sugar in liquids like vinegar. It's called "mother", and the Bragg company makes a point of saying they keep the "mother" in their product. As Bragg and other wellness brands gain traction, Patricia's ideas become more mainstream. But that also puts them under additional scrutiny. She's not exactly interested in defending the products on their scientific merits. Sometime after Patricia publishes her book,
43:00 Scaachi Koul? The Miracle of Fasting, in 2004, she appears on a live call-in segment on KEYT, a local Santa Barbara news station. She's in conversation with reporter Debbie Davison. Debbie has a quintessential 90s haircut, think Princess Di meets a mullet, and she's wearing beige head to toe. That is a sharp contrast with the technicolor Patricia, who's wearing floral print leggings, a bright yellow blazer, and has pink and purple flowers in her hair. She's even holding a bouquet in her hands, for some reason. One of the first calls tosses Patricia a big old softball. "Is drinking vinegar good for your health?" Here's what Patricia says.
43:38 Speaker 10 Oh, drinking vinegar is wonderful. The organic raw vinegar with the "mother", what it does, it purifies and cleanses your body, just like when you wash your windows with apple cider vinegar takes the gunk out.
43:52 Sarah Hagi? What the hell? Shut up. People can say anything just because something tastes like ass. And it feels like because this tastes bad and I'm drinking it, it must be doing something good for me because it's also not alcohol or like has any sort of drug effect. I don't know. Honestly, sure, go off Patricia.
44:11 Scaachi Koul? Well, Patricia also says that while the old adage is an apple a day keeps the doctor away, a teaspoon of ACV has the same effect. But the next caller reflects a rising skepticism. Her name is Trina and she says that she read a book claiming that you should avoid vinegar when you have yeast problems. Trina wants to know what Patricia thinks. Patricia switches tone. She becomes serious and stumbles over her words slightly when she says that they don't believe in distilled, processed vinegars. She says Trina should try the best, most natural vinegar first and see how that helps. She then turns to the reporter Debbie with her lips pursed.
44:48 Sarah Hagi? The thing here is why can't she just be like, oh, you know what? That actually might not be helpful for a yeast infection. That she wants us so badly to be a cure-all that everyone should be drinking all the time, to me is so sinister. It's not even like there's a specific use. Just glug, glug, glug and you'll be okay.
45:07 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, I mean, you can't ask questions if you're just drinking potion, you know? Well, then, in 1992, a doctor from the National Council Against Health Fraud is quoted in an article arguing that vinegar has absolutely nothing to do with longevity. Sure, there's some evidence that having diluted ACV every day can help manage blood sugar and cholesterol. It might even help a little bit with weight loss, but that's likely due to the acetic acid, which is found in any vinegar. An ACV probably won't cure your cancer. It actually has some negative health effects, including eroding your tooth enamel, contributing to acid reflux, and may actually be detrimental if you have kidney disease. Oh, and by the way, this article is debunking supposed youth potions tied to the release of the movie Death Becomes Her.
45:52 Scaachi Koul? Great film.
45:54 Sarah Hagi? Incredible film, and this is so funny that this is happening in 1992, and here we are in 2025. I think a lot of people will be shocked by the longevity of this scam.
46:08 Scaachi Koul? It's really sustained itself. Well, Patricia's ace in the hole has been the mother, which makes the vinegar look more healthy and natural. But there isn't evidence that it makes Bragg's products any healthier than filtered ACV. In fact, the bacteria can't survive in our stomachs, so it can't possibly have any positive probiotic effects. These criticisms might put a small dent into Patricia's grift, but the company is still motoring along. It's around this time that Patricia gives a young Katy Perry her first guitar. And as the new millennium dawns, these kind of health products are more mainstream than ever. The organic food market totaled $17 billion in 2006, and that is the same year that even Walmart starts to prioritize organic food.
46:51 Scaachi Koul? Bragg even opens a new headquarters in a coveted ranch that Patricia buys. It's home to test kitchens, apple orchards, a rose garden, and cabins that house her large doll collection. But this expanding real estate portfolio is going to bring a curious journalist to Patricia's doorstep, and he's going to ask the questions that she spent a lifetime dodging.
47:14 Scaachi Koul? It's early 2008 in Hawaii, and Patricia is about to talk to a journalist. That's not abnormal. She does interviews all the time. There are usually puff pieces about her wellness tips, but this time is different. A few months ago, the newspaper Maui Time Weekly did a story about the 500 acres of Hawaiian land Patricia owns. The story implied that Patricia was partitioning the land to possibly sell. That makes her neighbors unhappy. So Patricia called the editor and insisted that he talk to her. And now she's meeting him at his office. The editor's name is Anthony Pignotaro. With his plain dark hair and plain dark clothes, he really contrasts with Patricia's usual outfit of pink pantsuits and floppy pink hats. Patricia is used to getting her way,
47:59 Scaachi Koul? so she starts making herself at home. She pushes his computer to the side of the desk and grabs a chair from the hallway for herself. She's very comfortable. She tells Anthony, unprovoked, that she has never worn a bra.
48:13 Scaachi Koul? Patricia is ready to argue about her land, but Anthony tells her that he has something else to show her: a copy of Patricia's real birth certificate. He points out the line naming her biological father. According to this official government document, it's not Paul Bragg. This is one of the first times anyone has challenged Patricia about this lie, and she's a little thrown off. So at first, she tries to brush him off by saying that Paul legally adopted her years and years ago. But Anthony presses her, and Patricia says that she had a wonderful mother and that both of her dads got along like brothers. She says she was very blessed.
48:51 Sarah Hagi? Oh, finally, her weird-ass family claim is coming back to light. This woman is insane.
48:59 Scaachi Koul? Yeah.
48:59 Sarah Hagi? Now, her dads were like brothers? The dad that you may have cheated with on your brother? I hate these people.
49:09 Scaachi Koul? Well, Patricia is a little nervous when Anthony publishes his reporting about her murky background, but nothing really seems to come out of it. No one else challenges her personal history, and she never has to go out of her way to directly address any debunking of their pseudoscientific promises. The years pass, and Patricia and Bragg are totally fine. Still, Patricia takes some steps to bolster Bragg's claims about their products, to shore up her legacy. In 2013, Bragg releases a study in partnership with Arizona State University. The results find that Bragg Organic Apple Cider Vinegar Drink lowered blood sugar in patients at risk for type 2 diabetes. And like her father-in-law, Patricia never stops the hustle. In the 2010s, she starts telling people that Bragg is so popular,
49:54 Scaachi Koul? they've caused a shortage of organic apples. She says that the Dalai Lama has traveled with Bragg Liquid Aminos for years, that her books have been the number-one health books in Russia for decades, and that she has been Clint Eastwood's nutritionist for almost all of her adult life.
50:09 Sarah Hagi? There is something to be said about how ACV does have some health benefit, but instead of being like, "Hey, this small, little thing could be great for you," it's this huge promise instead of just being honest, which would still make people want to try it, you know?
50:26 Scaachi Koul? I mean, that's what makes it a scam. Like Paul, Patricia seems to have dodged any real accountability. But she's about to hand the company off to another celebrity who's going to have to answer to a legion of haters. And this one is a real firework.
50:44 Scaachi Koul? It's 2022, and people on the internet are mad at Katy Perry. That's not unusual, but this isn't because of her music, or her girlboss feminism, or her continued work with the music producer Dr. Luke. Instead, Katy is being targeted by Bragg apple cider vinegar enthusiasts. It's been a few years since the investment group that included Katy and her husband Orlando Bloom bought Bragg. And recently, Bragg fans have been on YouTube and TikTok claiming that new management has dropped the ball. Specifically, these people claim that older bottles of ACV are darker than the new ones. They think that means that the older bottles had more of the mother sediment. Take a listen to what YouTuber Gage Girl Training had to say in the years following the scandal.
51:29 Speaker 11 We do know that the ownership of Bragg's has changed in the last year or two with celebrity investors and whatnot. But it seems as though the quality has declined.
51:42 Sarah Hagi? This is exactly what happens in these situations where people become obsessed with something they don't understand but has dubious health claims. The second something about it changes, they can create a conspiracy about the quality or whatever. But they also don't know what they're talking about at all, nor is it based in any fact. How are you going to rebuke what they're saying when there's no proof of anything at all?
52:03 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, they're mad that their weird apple juice isn't as gross as it used to be. And people theorize that Bragg's new owners have been watering down the vinegar to make more profit. And we don't know for sure, but Katy is probably devastated by these allegations. Remember, Bragg isn't just an investment for her, it's personal. Even when one of the YouTubers actually tests the bottles and finds no difference between the batches, it's still damaging to the company's image and means criticism from the very same people Paul and Patricia were selling to all these years.
52:37 Scaachi Koul? Following year, Katy gets even worse news. Patricia dies in August 2023 at the ripe old age of 94. Katy makes a heartfelt Instagram post mourning her friend, early supporter, and lifelong inspiration. Sarah, can you close us out by reading the top comment as of this recording?
52:55 Sarah Hagi? Okay, the first comment says, "You destroyed a great product with Bill Gates apples. I can tell the quality has changed. I'm boycotting and won't be buying it anymore."
53:07 Scaachi Koul? So Sarah, will you be doing some sort of apple cider vinegar cleanse in the imminent future?
53:13 Sarah Hagi? No, I am so anti anything like that, as you know. But I do feel quite vindicated as a no at all. Because I've definitely mocked my loved ones who've been like, "And if you use apple cider vinegar?" And I'm just like, "Why? What is that? What does it do? Why do you care?" And this is so sinister because you go to any bitch's kitchen, you open the cabinet under the sink, and there's a dusty ass bottle of that stuff of when they thought they were gonna change their whole lives. You know what I mean?
53:46 Scaachi Koul? Yeah. I have bought apple cider vinegar once in my life to, I think, make a salad dressing that I didn't even like. And then I used it in a face mask that gave me a rash. So I also feel vindicated that all of this is total nonsense.
54:02 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, I mean, I'm just kind of floored by all of this because even without the dates, like, if you took away the dates of everything and when this all happened and the history of this company, it could easily have been something that happened 10 years ago. You know what I mean? I think it just exemplifies so well how badly people want to believe that just buying this one thing's gonna fix me. And that it's always the same kind of conversation around it. I don't think it's bad for you, but I think it's scary when people are consuming things like this thinking it will actually work and fix something for them instead of doing other proven methods.
54:42 Scaachi Koul? It's funny, too, because the only reason we really know about all of this and about the bullshit behind this company and this product is because Katy Perry bought it. And I don't know that we would even know or be adjudicating this if it weren't for people being mad at her all the time.
54:55 Sarah Hagi? I will say one more thing. Once my friend pissed me off so badly because she bought these vitamin gummies that were apple cider vinegar gummy.
55:05 Scaachi Koul? Oh.
55:06 Sarah Hagi? And they literally just tasted like candy. And I was like, what do you think this is doing for you? Why are you buying this? What did she think it was doing?
55:12 Scaachi Koul? So upset. I don't know. You know, she's like a really hot girl who like, she's doing something, right? I feel like Bragg really tapped into a deeply human, innately human desire to just take one shot or bite of something disgusting and have it cure everything. And unfortunately, nothing is that simple.
55:35 Sarah Hagi? Nothing is that simple. Also, like, buy something else. 90% of the time, you just want to buy something, and that's what cures you.
55:42 Scaachi Koul? Mm-hmm.
55:42 Sarah Hagi? Just buy something else.
55:44 Scaachi Koul? Yeah. Instead of letting capitalism trick you into wellness scams, let it trick you into some makeup.
55:51 Sarah Hagi? Let it trick you into something like a nice outfit.
55:55 Scaachi Koul? A gun.
55:56 Sarah Hagi? A book. A good book, written by someone who knows what they're talking about.
56:00 Scaachi Koul? A weapon.
56:01 Sarah Hagi? Go to the movies. Buy some candy.
56:03 Scaachi Koul? Locusts.
56:10 Scaachi Koul? Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.
56:21 Scaachi Koul? This is Paul and Patricia Bragg, the mother of all wellness scams. I'm Sachi Cole.
56:26 Sarah Hagi? And I'm Sarah Hagi. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected] . We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were The Maintenance Phase Podcast, Apple Cider Vinegar Fans Are Mad at Katy Perry by Jaya Saxena and Eater, The Mysterious Hippie Food Brand That's Never Let Me Down by Kyle Beachy and Bon Appetit, How Americans Became Obsessed With Drinking Apple Cider Vinegar by Nadia Berenstein and Epicurious, And The Name of the Father by Anthony Pignataro and Maui Time Weekly, 100 Years of Health with Patricia Bragg by Colleen Holland and Veg News, and contemporaneous reporting about Paul Bragg and the LA Times, The Washington Herald, and the Washington Daily News.
57:11 Scaachi Koul? Jessica Ford wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Hagi. Eric Thurm is our story editor. Fact checking by Lexi Perry. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lin. Our music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Freeze on Sync. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Our senior managing producer is Callum Pluse. Janine Cornelo and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our producer is Julie McGruder. Our senior producers are Sarah Enni and Ginny Bloom. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louie, and Aaron O'Flaherty. For Wondery.
57:59 Speaker 12 Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand new update to the multi-award-winning podcast, Who Killed Daphne?, I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next.
58:41 Speaker 12 Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne? wherever you get your podcasts, and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
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