Adam Draper, Co-Founder of Boost VC: Why Investing in Weird Things Leads to Great Returns

Adam Draper is a Co-Founder of Boost VC. In this conversation, Adam and Anthony Pompliano discuss Bitcoin, Blockchain, cryptocurrencies, space, aliens, oceans, and why investing in weird things delivers great returns. ----- Ethereal Summit returns to New York City this May 10th to 11th to kick off Blockchain Week and offer you a chance to go deep into the heart of crypto, blockchain, and Ethereum. Get up close with outspoken crypto leaders like Mike Novogratz, Joe Lubin, Tushar Jain, Danny Ryan, and yours truly Anthony Pompiliano. Ethereal Summit is where you can get in the mix with the builders of blockchain. Check out Etherealsummit.com with discount code POMP to get 20% off tickets to come hang with the brightest minds in blockchain at Ethereal Summit New York, May 10th to 11th at Pioneer Works in Brooklyn. ----- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworksgroup.io

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to Off the Chain, simply the best podcast in crypto. Let's kick this thing off.

• 0:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Adam Draper is a co-founder of Boost VC. In this conversation, we talk about Bitcoin, blockchain, cryptocurrencies, space, aliens, oceans, and why investing in weird things delivers great returns. I really enjoyed this conversation, and Adam was as entertaining as always. I really hope you enjoy this as well. This May 10th and 11th, Ethereal Summit is coming to New York City to kick off Blockchain Week. It offers you a chance to go deep into the heart of crypto, blockchain, and Ethereum. Come hang out with Mike Novogratz, Joe Lubin, Tushar Jain, Danny Ryan, and yours truly. You get into the mix with the builders of blockchain and Ethereum, it's less shiller,

• 0:55Anthony Pompliano?

  all killer. Go to etherealsummit.com and use my discount code POMP to get 20% off tickets. I'll see you there on May 10th and 11th at Pioneer Works in Brooklyn.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Bang, bang. I'm here with Adam Draper. Thank you so much for coming.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Bang, bang.

• 1:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Bang, bang. You have to start on everyone, bang, bang. And we're just like, pay attention now.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  I'm gonna do sci-fi.

• 1:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Sci-fi.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  I'm here with Pomp.

• 1:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, perfect. I'd rather be called Adam Draper. It's a cooler name than Pomp. Arkansas, what up? I'm on the live stream. Alright, so here we go. Ready?

• 1:54Speaker 02

  That's a good use. Okay, continue.

• 1:57Anthony Pompliano?

  What's your background?

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Okay, my background-

• 1:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Everyone does you as the man who wears their orange pants, but you're actually way more substance underneath those pants. That sounds weird.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Oh God, this is so refreshing. I gotta say, thank you for having me on this. I've been, you know, up and down talking to endowments and all these places that you've talked to.

• 2:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Serious people with suits and ties.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this, the energy, you guys, you guys have good energy here.

• 2:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's fine.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Okay, uh, my background is, okay, so in between high school and college, I played, I'm going way back. Uh, I played tennis in Australia.

• 2:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Were you good?

• 2:32Speaker 02

  I was good. I mean, I was trying to go pro and then I, uh, yeah, yeah. And then I would.

• 2:38Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm not playing you this.

• 2:40Anthony Pompliano?

  I was gonna play you if you were bad, so I got ego.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  And then I ended up at UCLA and I was an English major and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And then I, um, basically I was forced into the English major. I had enough credits and units towards that. Education, we can talk about education if you want to.

• 2:58Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm waiting for somebody to have a Twitter major rather than English major. Twitter major would be so valuable.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  That's what people should write on their resumes.

• 3:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  That would be brilliant. Uh, and then, so my background was, I started a company. It was called Expert Financial with a guy named Thomas Foley. And we were a secondary market for private securities. Uh, actually at the same time, uh, Barry Silbert, who's at DCG, I don't know if he's been on this, he should.

• 3:21Anthony Pompliano?

  He's not, he never ordered to get him on.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Okay. I, I, I just saw him yesterday and, uh, he's, he's great. And, uh, he was starting, uh, he was working at second market. He started second market and we were sort of competitive in this secondary market for private security space. And, uh, I went on and after about four and a half years of running Expert Financial, we, it did end up selling, uh, to a company called Venivate. Uh, Venivate was bought by a company called, uh, King, uh, oh my God, what was it called? Keystone.

• 3:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Keystone.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Keystone was bought by Coinbase.

• 3:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Recently.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  For experts ATS that we had. So technically came full circle. Uh, but, uh, because I invested in Coinbase, so with, you know, the value chain works. I, um, after Expert Financial, I realized that the, I had a lot of fun, uh, mentoring startups and not doing what I did, did and making mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes when starting a company.

• 4:20Anthony Pompliano?

  What was the biggest mistake you made when you started the company?

• 4:22Speaker 02

  I think, uh, In a regulated space, so we were a broker dealer, we were, we had to be a broker dealer to be able to transact securities. The biggest mistake that we made was using the SEC as a product manager. So like having their input on like how it should be working.

• 4:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  So that it is like regulated and secure rather than just, if I were to go back and do it, I would not be paid and I would try to facilitate a lot of transactions of secondary. So I would go through the process. Paul Graham says do things that don't, that don't scale. Same system, I would go through that system once and then I do it again. And then you use technology to enhance the process. You don't start with the technology.

• 5:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  And so I would say like-

• 5:09Anthony Pompliano?

  You should talk to a lot of crypto people, they're got a little backwards there.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, like, yes. Yeah, that is a key thing. You, you need to understand who your customer is.

• 5:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  So like one of the lead things when people reach out cold to me in an email, they say like what they do, or they lead with, the worst was in 2017, 2018, when they were leading with how much money they had.

• 5:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Raised.

• 5:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  It was like, ICO, only one million left, raised 18 or whatever. And it's like, I don't even know what you do and you've been writing for three sentences.

• 5:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, I'll take it one step further. It was like, people would show up and they'd send you a thing about, hey, we have 27,000 people on our Telegram channel.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, that's a metric.

• 5:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, congratulations.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Like, that's a metric of success.

• 5:52Anthony Pompliano?

  By the way, what do you do?

• 5:54Speaker 02

  And so what I ask them now is I say, I say, who's your customer?

• 6:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Because at the end of the day, like, I actually find that most startups, most crypto or otherwise, don't actually know who the end customer is.

• 6:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  And most of the time, it's not who you think it is. And so that ends up being a very intuitive question to see how far along they are in the process. If they can succinctly tell me, this is who my customer is, this is the demographic, and this is how much money we make off of them, you're further along than almost anyone.

• 6:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. What did, after the company, what did you do next?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  So I founded what was the first ever crowdfunding website for equity.

• 6:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Really?

• 6:35Speaker 02

  It was called Boost Funder.

• 6:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Okay. And then what I realized was, like, I'm going deeper than I probably need to.

• 6:43Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, no.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  How long is this supposed to be? I could be, I could be talking for ages.

• 6:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, we might go four hours.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Okay, perfect.

• 6:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Unless I gotta go to the bathroom, then I'm leaving.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  But I'll still be here. The, so I founded Boost Funder and it was basically my way of going, okay, the SEC regulators, they only care if you're actually making money.

• 7:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  So like if you're taking a fee, they think that greed is involved. So I was like, I'm not going to take a fee. I'm going to match investors and entrepreneurs online. And so I launched it, but I realized that there was a discrepancy between what an investor needs to invest and when an entrepreneur, the level of the entrepreneur thinks they are at to get investment. And so I was like, you know what? The best way to solve this is actually offline.

• 7:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  And, and so that led to Boost, which founded as an accelerator, but now is a pre-seed fund focused on investing in sci-fi technologies.

• 7:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. Uh, before we get to Boost, um, let's talk about Coinbase.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Cause you invested, I think you were the first investor?

• 7:46Speaker 02

  I, yes, I was the first investor. They did go through YC though.

• 7:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  So technically YC.

• 7:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Describe what your experience with Bitcoin, crypto, et cetera, was pre Coinbase. And let's talk about the Coinbase investment.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Okay. Uh, that part is a good question because it's very short.

• 8:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  I had no previous experience in digital Bitcoin currencies. So they, uh, I got a list of companies that sent to me. Um, and I read through all the descriptions and one of them said marketplace for digital currencies. And I said, I do not know what that is. What is a digital currency? What is, I don't know what that is. Um, and so I, I cold emailed Brian Armstrong at Coinbase.

• 8:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Founder CEO.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, founder CEO. Um, and I said, uh, and I wrote this email sort of making myself sound better than I was. Uh, and I, I'd invested in a couple of companies, um, before Coinbase. Uh, and I said those in the email. And then I said, do you want to meet for coffee? I met at, we, we did, we met at a place called Red Rock, which is in Mountain View. I highly recommend it. It's a good coffee place. It's got good. Good coffee. And then I

• 8:56Anthony Pompliano?

  He said that like he's sponsored by Red

• 8:59Speaker 02

  I actually, I like to thank them because I've written, I've invested in three companies who I met at Red Rock, who total market cap today are worth like $10 billion or something. So like

• 9:12Anthony Pompliano?

  So founders should only come to the meeting?

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Only go to Red Rock. That's the collective valuation. And Brian said one thing, and he said a lot of things about his background. I've sort of an emerging theory about entrepreneurs and it's like rational people doing irrational things. Or irrational people doing rational things also works. But the, but Brian Armstrong, he was coming, he left Airbnb.

• 9:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  And at that point, it was a billion dollar company. He had been, he was one of the first hundred employees. And he had started two companies previously. So like this founder looks on paper very like rational. And when I was talking to him, he was very rational. But what he said to me was at some point, the world is going to be on one financial infrastructure. And the concept of that means all of the countries have to have a connected financial infrastructure, which is an insane concept. And he's saying Bitcoin, at that time Bitcoin is going to be that financial infrastructure. And he was referring to himself and saying what Coinbase is, is the gateway. It would be the Netscape to the browser to the internet.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  And I just started to obsess over this concept of a connected financial infrastructure. And so what I did was I did diligence and I started talking to other people in the Bitcoin world. He referred me to a couple of people and I talked to a couple more people.

• 10:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Who were the people you talked to?

• 10:38Speaker 02

  So I talked to someone who it was a founder at, his name was Laurent, who was at, it was an app search engine at the time called Quicksi. He was the CTO. And then I talked to Bill Bardite, who runs Abra now. I talked to, I talked to, it was a bunch of people who are now like, you know, thought leaders in the space, actually. And the, and the overarching consensus that I felt was

• 11:03Speaker 02

  This is the most dynamic community of people, like whether or not the technology is there. Like, these are, these are like some of the most dynamic people. Smartest, by dynamic, I mean like smartest, but also like passionate about changing the world. And a little crazy, like all of them are a little crazy. But they all seem, they all have these backgrounds. Like, my first experiences with Bitcoin were not drug deals or anything like that. It was, it was literally like people with 15 years of experience in finance.

• 11:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Trying to buy coffee with Bitcoin at Red Rock?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, trying to buy coffee with Bitcoin at Red Rock.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  And I, Red Rock, I need to go there again. I need to start having my meetings there. I'll, we'll buy the building at some point and just be like, have all my meetings. It'll be a co-working space. We'll do it together.

• 11:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Pump. That's fine.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  The, and so that was my story with Corvus. I, I ended up investing because of the dynamic community as well as this just, you know, rational person doing irrational things. Irrational things.

• 12:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, so Kanye, who had, is a legend on Twitter at this point, says, tell me a genius, you know, that isn't crazy? And there's an element of what you're describing that fits that in terms of...

• 12:19Speaker 02

  It's like, they fit the, yeah, it's like, they're, they are crazy. Don't get me wrong, all of them are crazy.

• 12:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  But they come off as semi-rational.

• 12:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Elon is like probably the perfect example. Like, he actually, if you sit down and you listen to him talk, you're like, you know what? I can see how he could get through an entire conversation and say everything he just said with a straight face and no one thinks he's crazy. But do you understand the guy just said that we're gonna go to Mars?

• 12:43Speaker 02

  That's, see, that's what I'm talking about. Like, the, the like, you know, the person, exactly, Elon's a perfect example. Elon's a perfect example where it's like, on, on paper, he, he sold PayPal. He like, you know, has this background of building and delivering. And then he says, oh, we're going to Mars.

• 12:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Duh.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Elon's a perfect example.

• 13:02Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, so as you're building Boost, uh, let's go through how you act, well, what does Boost mean, by the way, first of all?

• 13:11Speaker 02

  So Boost means...

• 13:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Like B-O-O-S-T, but not Boost Mobile, like the phone carrier?

• 13:17Speaker 02

  That's so funny. We used to get a lot of overlap of people being like, oh, you work at Boost Mobile.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Early, early on in the, like, people would like tap me on the shoulder and be like, oh, you work at Boost Mobile.

• 13:28Anthony Pompliano?

  My phone doesn't work, dude.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, Boost Wireless. So Boost is a community of people. We have housing and office space.

• 13:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  In downtown San Mateo, and so in the Bay Area, in Silicon Valley. And we bring people from all over the world, working in highly technical industries like crypto, and virtual reality, and oceans and space. And we bring them, and it's almost like a home base for companies and startups to be able to connect to Silicon Valley.

• 14:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  So it's almost like, so they can live there, work there. Our accelerator program, we run once a year, and the companies come in for three months, and they live in the housing, work in the office space. We're running a program right now with 20 startups, nine crypto, fantastic stuff. And the, yeah, and so that, like Boost, what I feel is that being, for venture capital, being the connection to the entrepreneur at the earliest stage, closest to the idea, is the most powerful position to be. And so what we do is try to provide sort of a safe spot, a home base for those people, to be able to really innovate in the Bay Area, while also being able to connect to a network in Silicon Valley.

• 14:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Why set up in San Mateo rather than San Francisco? For those that don't know, San Mateo is outside of the city, think of it that way, and San Francisco is a city.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  So one reason would be that we have the housing and office space there. The other reason is-

• 15:04Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a good reason.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:05Anthony Pompliano?

  That's where the building is?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  That's where the building is. And since we've moved in, like, I've seen a whole cultural shift from San Mateo being a very sleepy town, to listening in at coffee shops, and deals are being done. And that's like, it was a seismic shift over the last seven years of watching these different people come in and just change the world. And it's been fantastic to watch. YouTube, founded in San Mateo, AdMob, San Mateo. So Google only buys things that are started in San Mateo.

• 15:35Anthony Pompliano?

  So that's like two things now, right?

• 15:36Speaker 02

  That's two things.

• 15:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Go to Red Rock, and then if you start a company, it's San Mateo.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Red Rock, San Mateo. You should, it's got, you see, a deep roots, rooted DNA, but it also has Boost, and we're, and now we back 300 startups.

• 15:49Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So you guys are accelerating companies? And you were also investing in companies that don't go through the accelerator as well.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  Correct. So we started as an accelerator.

• 15:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  And I found that to be the best way to sort of reach to solve this problem of getting to know the entrepreneur earliest. And then we verticalized into Bitcoin and virtual reality. And then as we, you know, developed a very, a brand and we started to understand that there were companies outside the accelerator who wouldn't join, who are third time founders who, you know, are in the crypto space or the virtual reality space. We wanted to be able to invest in great people. And so being able to write a $250,000 to $500,000 check allows us to do that also.

• 16:35Anthony Pompliano?

  And you're trying to invest as early as possible?

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Always. We try to be first check. More than anything, we want to make the decision for ourselves. We always like to just say like, we're the first decision, one of, we say first check, but it like, there could be someone else in. And like, we just want to actively make the decision for ourselves, whether or not we are investing.

• 16:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Um, let's go to all the non crypto stuff first.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 17:00Anthony Pompliano?

  VR.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  I have strong opinions on crypto also.

• 17:03Anthony Pompliano?

  I know you do. That's why I'm gonna save it till the end when you're tired.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 17:06Anthony Pompliano?

  VR, AR, ocean, space, like you guys are going after all these different verticals. Let's start with VR and AR first.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 17:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Why are you excited?

• 17:14Speaker 02

  I think it's super important that we start with VR, AR first.

• 17:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Here, let me stop you for a second. We're gonna start with VR, AR. The, uh, so.

• 17:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Adam is taking over the podcast.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  So, uh, last week was, this week is actually GDC, which is the gaming developers conference and tons of its VR now. Like almost like a huge segment of this conference. That's one of the biggest gaming conferences in the world. It's taken over and is virtual reality.

• 17:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Describe the difference between virtual reality and augmented reality for people that don't know.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Okay. So virtual reality is I am enclosing myself in a new world of digital proportions.

• 17:53Anthony Pompliano?

  You put goggles on.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  You put full goggles on, um, and you don't see beyond your goggles. It could be, you could be in space. You could be in Athens. Greece.

• 18:04Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like one hundred percent.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 18:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Artificial or synthetic world.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like that synthetic world. I deal with synthetic worlds.

• 18:11Anthony Pompliano?

  I just made it up.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, augment so augmented reality is overlaying data on our real world. I would say like if you played the Pokemon game, Niantic, they overlay little Pokemons on your phone, which is overlaid on the world. I would actually argue that the first major augmented reality platform is actually audio. So it's Alexa or AirPods or because it's overlaying data on our world, it's just not visual. Virtual reality is very, very visual. It's very difficult to do like a radio version of virtual reality. Because it's fully immersive, it is you are being teleported to this other place.

• 18:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Dude, when Apple figures out the battery life on the AirPods, I'm never taking that out of my ear.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Right?

• 18:52Anthony Pompliano?

  It is incredible.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  They're training us. It's incredible.

• 18:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, yeah, it's incredible.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, what? Yeah.

• 18:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Before we die.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  So that.

• 19:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Before we die, are they gonna have implants?

• 19:03Speaker 02

  You're already hooked into the AR. You're on an AR platform. That's augmented reality. So listening to podcasts that's overlaying your world with.

• 19:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Because AR AR has multiple components which can be visual and audio.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Completely.

• 19:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Actually.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  And also like, once they start tuning into like Google.

• 19:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  And like saying where you are, that's a true AR application in Siri. Like if it starts to say like, hey, you're supposed to take a left turn to get into this building. Go up, you know, seventy four fours or whatever.

• 19:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Go to the elevators. Adam had some issues getting in, so we're gonna give him a hard time. I had to go get him in the lobby and everyone looked at me weird. But so let me tell you this, though. I went in LA and I wish that I remembered the organization because I'd love to give him credit for this. But it's a VR application and this young kid was an advertising agency that I think his father ran. And he said to me, hey, come look at this, I want to show you this new demo. And so I went, this is probably two, two and a half years ago, or maybe even three years ago now. And so he says, put these goggles on, put them on. And all of a sudden, I'm standing on top of the Freedom Tower.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And in it, all of a su- as soon as I put the goggles on, I started looking around and I have headphones on and I could hear wind.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:17Anthony Pompliano?

  And then he goes, move your right foot, six inches to like.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Step off the ledge.

• 20:22Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, even better. And when I move my foot, there's a rope that they have laid on the ground while I put the goggles on. So now all of a sudden, there's a, my foot feels a rope. I see a rope as if I'm walking in between the two towers. And I hear wind. And when I go to move my feet, they turn on a light fan. And now my, the rest of my body feels wind blowing. So think about the sensory overload of like, visual, audio, rope touching your foot and you feel the wind. I, I wouldn't walk. No, I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  So it turns out, it's like nine out of 10 people don't walk.

• 20:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Hey, I was like, I'm good.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's, it's incredible. Actually, there's a, a new experience that's in, so there, we, we backed one called Spaces that's a Terminator experience. And then there's another one called Sandbox. And what they are are, uh, group experiences where you're all tethered up and you can see each other in virtual reality. And then you kill Terminators or zombies or whatever the escape the room of that, uh, experience is. It's really fascinating because it gives you a good experience of like, of anxiety and like things coming at you. Um, there is, what, what is crazy is, uh, so I, I, I think there, so seven million high-end headsets were sold.

• 21:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Okay. So market size isn't that big, right? But I would argue that only half of them are actually set up. So smaller.

• 21:47Anthony Pompliano?

  So they sold seven million and three and a half got set up.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think, so I think 50% of them are set up. So 3.5 million are set up. I would argue that only 20% of them though are active. So that's like a market size of like 700,000. Um, but, uh, there's a company that made $15 million last year in virtual reality. A third-party built-in application that is on all the devices that made $15 million.

• 22:11Anthony Pompliano?

  On maybe 700,000.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  On 700,000 users. Like, once we scale the actual numbers, like, it is captivating. Like, this stuff is great. And the, someone was asking me earlier today, uh, when's the technology gonna be good enough? Like, it's good enough. It's just harder to use and the new. Device that's coming out next month, like an advertisement for uh for Facebook. Facebook is Facebook is releasing something called the Oculus Quest. And it's an all in one headset. You don't need a computer. You literally just unbox it, put it on your head. And you can uh you can do all the applications that basically everything that's been built for the high end computer stuff.

• 22:47Anthony Pompliano?

  So i- it's fascinating, the AirPod example, because uh audio is obviously exploding. And do you think that that is because audio was exploding? And then the device of an AirPod empowered more people to listen? Or do you think the AirPod creation empowers the explosion of audio? Like like, is it the the medium or is it the device that leads the charge?

• 23:12Speaker 02

  So I think it's about persistence.

• 23:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  So I think uh, okay, the difference between a laptop and a mobile phone are not that much different in computer power. It's basically like you have a computer in your pocket or a computer uh on device. But uh, the main difference is context. So I work on my desktop when I need to sit down and it's the old world. Some people probably only run on their mobile phone. But but the reason that the mobile phone took off so fast was that there were these intermittent spots where you could do work or play games. So the bathroom, uh, the train.

• 23:45Anthony Pompliano?

  I I I'm willing to bet that, what do you think, 10, maybe 20% of phone usage is in the bathroom?

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Oh, I bet I for early adoption, I bet it was for of the smartphone, I bet it was like 50%.

• 23:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Whoa.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  For early adoption.

• 23:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Now, now it would be less. It'd be it's like we're using it all the time.

• 24:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  But yes, I I bet it was a huge part of it.

• 24:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  I was I always thought just like focusing on toilet games would be a great market.

• 24:12Anthony Pompliano?

  That's fair.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  I uh, and and so by what I mean by it's about persistence, though, is like the mobile phone became more persistent than the desktop, just on usability.

• 24:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  And now we're moving to something that is currently could always be in your ears that is still accessing computer. And so you can suddenly start to see a world where we're talking to our phone constantly and it's almost a. Me, it, you could tether audio applications from your phone to your ears.

• 24:42Anthony Pompliano?

  You know what I want so badly, like, just give me the answers and tell me who the person is. Like, I, I wanna leave the AirPods in, and when the AirPod knows.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Who you're meeting with?

• 24:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, just not even who I'm meeting with, but just like, you run into somebody, whether it's a conference, on the street, in a coffee shop, Red Rock, right, wherever.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  We're definitely.

• 25:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Just tell me who the hell this person is.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  I mean, the glasses are definitely gonna do that. You, you would have to have a way of identifying which Bluetooth. I mean, like, if people are enabled, like, there's a way.

• 25:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. If every, if every system, if every system was connected, you could do it for sure. But just like, that's a use case, right? Directions is definitely a use case. Uh, and the part that I always go to is like, everyone's like, ah, I would never get an implant in my brain. I'm like, bullshit. You're telling me that if all of a sudden you could think a question and get the thought, and get the answer immediately, you wouldn't be interested in that?

• 25:30Speaker 02

  I think, uh, well, yes.

• 25:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, you just have Google in your brain.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:34Anthony Pompliano?

  What are you talking about?

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Well, also, people have surgery that are just purely cosmetic. People will probably have surgery for, uh, non-cosmetic.

• 25:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Humans are actually really irrational. Yeah, humans are actually really irrational, and it would be a very human thing to be like, oh, like, yeah, sure, we'll like, fix our noses and whatever.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  But not.

• 25:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Not fix our brains.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's not, let's not, let's not put anything in my brain. That's too dangerous.

• 25:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you looked at, um, Neuralink, or like, um, was it Kernel?

• 26:00Speaker 02

  So Kernel, Neuralink, there's another one called Pandromics.

• 26:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, I don't know about that.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  So I looked into that space.

• 26:06Anthony Pompliano?

  It's been a while since I've looked, like, maybe two years almost.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I looked into the space, I, I mean, it's early, like, and mostly.

• 26:12Anthony Pompliano?

  We, we just named all, the whole market.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  That's the whole market.

• 26:15Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like three companies.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  And it is the whole market.

• 26:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Two of the best founders of our lifetime are working on them, but still.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  And that's very, very true. And the, and it's gonna cost a lot of money, and it also, you have to go through medical compliance stuff.

• 26:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Brian Johnson, for those that don't know, Brian Johnson, uh, sold what, Braintree? Right?

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, yeah, I think so.

• 26:34Anthony Pompliano?

  And he started Kernel, and it's basically an implantable device. Uh, I actually think they call it, um, uh, mental prosthetic. Like, he's very careful about the way that he describes it.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Which is, which is smart.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  I like mental prosthetic.

• 26:45Anthony Pompliano?

  But, yeah, but he. He committed, I think, a hundred million dollars of his own personal capital to to fund this thing. So like expensive might be an understatement that literally he couldn't raise the money. He had to personally put the money up.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  Oh, completely. And I I I think it's going to be passionate people who are gonna rational people doing irrational things. Uh, who are going to change that industry.

• 27:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  And the Elon again, like he's putting up, I think he he's putting up most of the capital. I don't think he raised money for Neuralink. It's probably like the early days of the, uh, what's the hole hole one? The um, the hole in the ground, the um.

• 27:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, boring company.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Boring company.

• 27:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Like, yeah.

• 27:19Anthony Pompliano?

  I have a wild theory. I don't think that he's boring holes in the ground for traffic. I think he's practicing for Mars.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Oh, it's brilliant. He's like, we need to learn about this.

• 27:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, the the, so I think this is true. And of course Twitter will correct this if I if I'm wrong on this um, at some point. But uh, I'm pretty sure.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  You're always right and Twitter cannot be right.

• 27:40Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, no, as Twitter reminded me many times, I'm usually not right. But I think that on Mars, it's going to be really difficult for us to live above ground based on some of the atmospheric uh, like, conditions. And so there's a theory that the best way, if we get to Mars, is actually.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Have you read Red Rising?

• 27:56Anthony Pompliano?

  No, I haven't. What's that?

• 27:57Speaker 02

  Oh, fantastic series.

• 27:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Uh, and it's about basically what you're talking about. Where we're we're going to be living beneath the surface of Mars and.

• 28:05Anthony Pompliano?

  I maybe this is where this theory came from then or something.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  No, I don't, I don't think, well, maybe it could have been. It was this, it's a sci fi book. Basically, everything in sci fi books comes from uh, from from.

• 28:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Very true.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  The world builds those things.

• 28:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Who says that they're like, you know, if you want to see the future, like re, you know, look at sci fi or something?

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, Isaac Asimov basically predicted artificial intelligence. Uh, and he did in iRobot and in Psycho in uh, the Foundation. And then the um, I mean, I'm trying to build magic with VR and that's basically Harry Potter.

• 28:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Did, did you see Ready Player One?

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Amazing.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Fantastic.

• 28:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, probably one of the better movies I've seen in a while. And the way that it was done was just crazy enough that it was like, whoa, this is possible. And just rational enough where you could see like, we're gonna get there.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  It it it, after that movie came out, I was so happy because it it it's gonna. Uh, translate what virtual reality is to a millions of people who have never thought what a, what it would be like.

• 29:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  And that's exactly what it is. And it worked really, really well. They did the headset stuff really well. They showed how the world's gonna change, bad and good.

• 29:12Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't wanna, uh, out this person, but there's a, uh, an older gentleman that, uh, I'm, uh, just fascinated with. And, and one day I say something about virtual reality and he goes, what are you, what are you, what are you, young people talking about virtual reality? Don't you got that virtual reality on your computer? And what he said, what he meant was like, you're going into a virtual reality in your, like, it's, it's not stuck to your face, but you are going into a virtual reality. And I was like, you're actually really right.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  So the difference, uh, between a, the, the desktop and VR is immersion. So we, we currently interact with all this data, uh, with a, through a window. So we're looking at a window.

• 29:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  To that data where now we can actually fully immerse ourselves in that data and feel and experience it. I think that we, the killer, there are three things that VR is epic for, like amazing for. Uh, the surprising one to me is fitness.

• 30:05Anthony Pompliano?

  So yeah, with tonal and a bunch of these are all getting close.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  We, we have, uh, FitXR, BoxVR, uh, the YU are, like, there are a couple. It was just surprising, like, when you go to.

• 30:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Which ones did you invest in? So do shout outs.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  When you go to VR, I did, I'm sorry, BoxVR and FitX. Uh, FitXR runs BoxVR and then, uh, YU are is, is the other one and, uh.

• 30:27Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't want founders to get mad at you that you're not mentioning your, uh, your, your portfolios.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Oh, they, well, I hope they're not mad either.

• 30:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that's fine. You only invested in 300 companies.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, we, we'll be here.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  We could just sit here listing things off.

• 30:40Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, go back to VR fitness.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  But, but when you go on, on VR Twitter, uh, it's, it's all about, uh, how many pounds are being lost, uh, using the, the device. And, um, and it's hitting a different demographic of a person who might not wanna go to Equinox. Like, they're, they're, they wanna play games, but they don't wanna, uh, you know, go, go somewhere else.

• 31:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Have you seen?

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Actively to a different location.

• 31:04Anthony Pompliano?

  The Black Mirror episode where they're on and they're pedaling and they gotta stay pedaling.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  No, I haven't.

• 31:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, man. It's basically they're pedaling a real bicycle that's stationary and they're all in a room and they're, you know, essentially enslaved there to some degree. And they're looking on a screen and they have to keep pedaling, like, keep the lights on type stuff.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, we're pretty close to that.

• 31:27Anthony Pompliano?

  I'll listen, I'll give, I'll give my girlfriend a hard time. Like she's got an Apple Watch. And she will literally like, instead of stand up, she'll stand up like, like, hey, you gotta get steps in. You gotta like, compete with your friend.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Don't tell me what to do.

• 31:42Anthony Pompliano?

  You have to like, compete with your friend. Like that's virtual reality to some degree, right?

• 31:45Speaker 02

  No, it's.

• 31:46Anthony Pompliano?

  This machine is telling you what to do.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  There's a digital world that is, that we live in already and we're just getting closer and closer to being able to see it with our eyes. Like it's already all around us all the time. Like all this data, all this stuff.

• 31:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, Elon will tell us that we're in a simulation anyway, so it doesn't matter.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, now we're building a simulation in a simulation. So, uh, like, yeah. It's the movie Inception. That's what we're gonna be in.

• 32:10Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So AR, VR, big deal.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Okay, yes.

• 32:13Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm a believer. Um, do you think AR or VR hits mass, like mainstream adoption first?

• 32:19Speaker 02

  I think VR hits first and that's contrarian to the market.

• 32:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, why?

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Well, okay, visual AR, uh, will not hit until after virtual reality.

• 32:28Anthony Pompliano?

  If visual.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  So I'm, because I, I think AirPods are, and I think they're here.

• 32:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Dude, I said iPod. Like, can you imagine if we still had iPods? That'd be crazy.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  I mean, we do. It's just digital now. It's all application. It's like one app.

• 32:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Now we just put like.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  And we have multiple of that app.

• 32:44Anthony Pompliano?

  We put a phone app in there.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Multiple of those though. And that like, I have lots of iPods.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  The, I think VR hits first, uh, because AR is a very, very difficult technology challenge. It has to recognize the external world and then overlay data on top of that world. Where VR literally just needs to replace your world with a digital screen. And it's, uh, they're both difficult, but like, I think AR's technology is just, it's a couple, it's three years behind. Like it's literally, the timeline is three years, um, behind.

• 33:18Anthony Pompliano?

  I like this. I'm gonna disagree with you.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Okay, perfect. Go.

• 33:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Well, no, I'm not gonna tell you why.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  By the way, a lot of people disagree with me. Lots of people disagree with me.

• 33:26Anthony Pompliano?

  So I, I agree with what you just said. I agree with what you just said, but I think the piece that I would take past that would be. Even though the technology is quote unquote worse or not as developed as VR, the method in which it is utilized is more important than the quality of the technology. And people are, it's less scary to engage with AR than it is VR. Like I fundamentally think that a lot of mass consumers are like, no way I'm putting those goggles on, sitting on my couch and like looking like a loser.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  Well, it means that we have to deliver a good enough service.

• 33:59Anthony Pompliano?

  True.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we have to create the habit.

• 34:01Anthony Pompliano?

  The AR.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  And that's why I like with fitness. So fitness being the first of the thing. I haven't even said the other two. The other is, the other is training. So training, which basically means education. So we're getting closer and closer to the matrix, you know, like I know Kung Fu.

• 34:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  That we're there, basically.

• 34:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think Kung Fu is the first training that works?

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Uh, no, it's enterprise. So, uh, training for, uh, we have a company called Apex Officer that trains, uh, law enforcement, uh, vantage point for HR, uh, like different types of training, uh, in different, it's context is what is different about the training. Um, and then.

• 34:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, man, I forget, I forget the name of the company and, uh, and, uh, the founder's gonna kill me for this, but, uh, in 2015, I met him and he said, I'm gonna use, uh, basically synthetic environments, right? Or artificial environments to do interviews. And so it was like, if you were a customer support person, they would literally, the interview would be, we're just gonna put you in this environment and like bam, somebody just called, bam, now you just got an email. Now your boss has just sent you a, like, and you'd have to like, basically just do the job for a day.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Walmart is already training their employees.

• 35:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Hired, is the name, I forget. All right, keep going.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Uh, Walmart's already training their employees, uh, with virtual reality for Black Fridays.

• 35:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Really?

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so like you're ready.

• 35:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Like they're training Kung Fu for Black Friday?

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically. It's Kung Fu for Black Friday. They come out and they go, I know Kung Fu. Um, they do, because it's a high stress situation.

• 35:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  And we will, we as humans, if we experience something multiple times, we become more desensitized to it. So you can be ready for it and you can do what you feel you should be doing rather than like the, sometimes the response is fight or flight and like, you know, that's, I guess what they experience. On the reg on Black Fridays.

• 35:45Anthony Pompliano?

  In the in the army, we did these like VR simulations and you put the goggles on or whatever and you get in like they're almost like a skeleton vehicle. So they kind of feel like a vehicle. You're standing like in the gun turret, whatever. Uh, and they put you through the simulations and like, I don't know, it's kind of janky, uh, like cartoonish, you know, type of content. But like, hey, man, that dude over there on the right side of the screen shooting at you like, bro, shoot back, right? Or like, hey, man, like somebody over the radio just said X. Like, what are you gonna do?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  So I, uh, I did something really cool in VR, uh, recently, which was, um, I've been using it. So I've actually found deals in VR. So I actually.

• 36:23Anthony Pompliano?

  You put on goggles and then you.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like set up meeting times with with startups and I've invested in three companies that I met originally in virtual reality in a meeting and I'd say three meetings a week.

• 36:34Anthony Pompliano?

  You realize that that sounds insane?

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Exactly. No, we live in the future.

• 36:39Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. You're in the future. We're just pulling you back to reality for a second.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Just for this podcast, I came back and I I'm from the future. I'm trying to articulate what it looks like. The and the, uh, that is a big part of my job, by the way. I have to like retell the stories of like how this technology impacts people. But for me personally, I I'm running a, I took eight of our VR portfolio companies. I actually haven't even talked about this anywhere. So this is the you.

• 37:06Anthony Pompliano?

  This is an exclusive. You see what we do off the chain? We get exclusive.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, you get to hear about the the first ever.

• 37:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Sound like a reporter and I couldn't do that.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  We're not reporting, uh, but we, uh, I have taken, uh, eight of our companies who are in our portfolio already went through an accelerator or we invested in and every two weeks we meet up in VR. Um, and we.

• 37:29Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you guys do?

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Well, I hold them accountable on numbers and metrics and then we do what an accelerator does, like it's a it's a VR accelerator. And we hold them accountable on on metrics. And then what ends up happening is we talk around one topic. For instance, like someone brought up, I'm nervous about launching, like launching my application. So someone else said, I've already launched. This is how Facebook works, uh, for launching and this is how to become a launch partner. That's information I couldn't have given them, but the group can collaborate and solve the questions, solve answers.

• 38:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Basically, what you're talking about is rather than use like Google Hangouts and have six or seven people, you're just doing it in VR.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, but the so.

• 38:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Better than.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Exponentially better than Google Hangouts.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  So one to one, I would say they're equivalent. Like if I'm only working, if doing this, this is okay, Google Hangouts or in VR, like it works both ways. But in collaborative environments where you need to work on a whiteboard or you have to solve a difficult problem, getting into a room together, this is, it's the difference between this and Google Hangouts.

• 38:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Like it, it's difficult to quantify, but I would argue that it's about five to 10x better for collaborative environments. So for my situation where I have a group of people who are all talking, it's fantastic, like the group. But I also ran an investor day in VR.

• 38:51Anthony Pompliano?

  And all the investors had to get in VR?

• 38:52Speaker 02

  They had to jump into VR and meet these companies.

• 38:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Man, that really kind of probably filtered out a bunch of the idiots.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Well, we, we.

• 38:58Anthony Pompliano?

  We'll figure it out.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Well, no. So what I, in order to mitigate that risk, I, I brought them all into our office.

• 39:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, you did like real reality.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  And so we, we had like this merger of reality VR where the investors were on one side and the companies were on the other side of the virtual reality.

• 39:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Did, uh, did you see the photo of Zuck walking into, uh, F8 and everyone's got on the, uh, thing? Like, was it kind of like that?

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Uh, it was, well, so I, I didn't have that many people, but, and they, what I, how I set it up was more like, investors hang out and have appetizers and then they can opportunistically jump into headset and they meet two at a time in each headset. It worked really, really well. I'm very happy about it. It was a small scale representation of what I hope to scale out to a bigger audience. It's gonna be fun. It's really fun. So that's VR.

• 39:49Anthony Pompliano?

  VR AR. What about the oceans?

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Okay, oceans. Uh, I'm obsessed with the oceans.

• 39:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Um, okay. Do you want the long story?

• 40:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  Or the short story?

• 40:01Anthony Pompliano?

  We, we can do whatever we want, long story.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Okay. Uh, the long story starts at a bachelor party.

• 40:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, perfect.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 40:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Was it yours?

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Uh, no, it was my brother's.

• 40:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  And, uh.

• 40:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Will he kill you for telling these stories?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  No.

• 40:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, well, tell the more extreme story than so kill you.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Billy, Billy, sorry. Um, the, uh, no, so I was at a bachelor party and, uh, we were, uh, we were at a bar and we were playing hot takes.

• 40:30Anthony Pompliano?

  You said that like you're not supposed to be at the bar.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  Uh, the, uh, but we were playing hot takes. Uh, hot take is like something you believe that the rest of the world would hate you for.

• 40:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Basically. Uh, so like, for example, just to give other people an example, like an example would be like, uh, Ja Rule is the greatest rapper of all time. Like, right now, that would be the hottest take of all time.

• 40:49Anthony Pompliano?

  You think so?

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it would be a very hot take because Fire Festival.

• 40:54Anthony Pompliano?

  No, but I would argue that's why Fire Festival was Fire Festival because Ja Rule.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Because Ja Rule, so it makes him. So I would have taken the opposite side of that. So, okay. So that, that's what I'm saying is that basically Ja, Ja Rule.

• 41:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, nothing like just barking at people on a CD to get you famous.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Yes. And so I, uh, so my hot take was that climate change is not a thing.

• 41:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Jesus, alright.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  And so, so, but, uh, so this is, this is why I'm giving you the, the like full story, uh.

• 41:21Anthony Pompliano?

  So wait, is this something that you have to believe if you say it?

• 41:24Speaker 02

  So you believe it. So, but, but also everyone's just like making fun of each other. It's not a like coordinated game.

• 41:30Anthony Pompliano?

  I just want to make sure that when the press read.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Read this.

• 41:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Like when they listen to this, they say Adam Draper doesn't believe.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  But, but I said, but I said that and then what I said was, uh, then my friend almost punched me in the face.

• 41:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Because he was so viscerally, he had this visceral reaction. He didn't know anything about climate change, but like, everyone got super angry about my reaction to it and I didn't know anything about climate change. So, so like, I'm not gonna like, it was, it was like strictly off of the media telling me it's a thing. I said, it's not a thing. Um, we're crypto people, like I'm a, I'm a check, check the facts. So that next year, the next 12 months, I read books. I learned about climate change. I learned about global warming and.

• 42:10Anthony Pompliano?

  And the, uh, what do you think now?

• 42:12Speaker 02

  Okay, so. I think it's a ridiculous debate because it's not even about whether or not the climate, the earth is warming, which by the way, the way that we use to measure the data, I don't completely trust, but I do believe that climate change is happening.

• 42:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Okay, but it's the argument isn't about whether or not it's happening.

• 42:31Anthony Pompliano?

  But isn't global warming and climate change, they could be the same thing or they could be different?

• 42:34Speaker 02

  They are the same thing. They're they used a different word to describe the concept.

• 42:39Anthony Pompliano?

  And again, I'll caveat all this.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Basically, climate change, global warming was the first word everyone used for climate change.

• 42:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, but if let's just say that the climate was changing the other way, it was getting colder, which I'm not claiming that it is, but that'd be climate change.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  That's still about, well, they rebranded global warming because people were arguing about like, that was their argument against it.

• 42:58Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm just like three years late. Got it.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're three years. But like, no one actually checked the, no one read books, no one checks everything. Everyone just had an opinion and I like to figure out like where these friction points are, figure out where the truth is, right? Like that's where the discoverers of truth. And so what I I did, I'm not going to say that I know for a fact what the truth is, but I know I believe that the climate is warming or or getting more extreme. Let's say getting more extreme, which is what climate change is. They're talking about extremities.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  But the argument is about really it's are humans causing it or is it a natural?

• 43:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  System. So my thought is like, because I believe that climate change is happening,

• 43:43Speaker 02

  whether or not it's human caused or not, like we should probably, the the ocean is the regulator of the earth's temperature.

• 43:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Many people don't know that.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's the the reason that we exist is because there's enough like dissolving of H2O that we don't get hit by the whole heat wave. And and CO2 actually doesn't have anything to do with climate, like it very little to do with climate. It's all it's mostly H2O. And so the ocean has a, you know, a trash heap the size of Texas in the middle of it. So we might as well clean it up to like, check it off the box of like, human caused climate change.

• 44:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  And so, but, okay, this is the long way of saying, and I don't, I don't know if you.

• 44:24Anthony Pompliano?

  No, I care.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Okay, you care. Thank you. I found the person.

• 44:30Anthony Pompliano?

  My name is Adam Draper and I'm part of Oceans Anonymous.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  It's a room of one. I go into VR and I go to my oceans anonymous meetings every week.

• 44:41Anthony Pompliano?

  All right.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Um, but basically oceans have a huge problem and the problem is, uh, I've lost some people.

• 44:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Some people dropped off, but then other people are saying very interesting. So there's a couple of other oceans.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, I care too. Good. Uh, the oceans have, it's a business model problem. Basically, everyone thinks of it as a nonprofit.

• 45:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Because, and naturally, the United States and every country's, uh, issue is that no one owns the ocean. So our incentive is actually throw trash in the middle of the water.

• 45:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Everyone's incentive is to throw it in the middle of the water so that it's not our problem. So naturally it's a tragedy of the commons problem. So like naturally it became a trash heap. So the key is to change the business model of the ocean from a tragedy of the commons thing to a ownership model of the ocean. So what I'm trying to say on this podcast is I own the ocean.

• 45:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  It's mine.

• 45:38Anthony Pompliano?

  And, and what are you gonna do with it? Can I have some?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Well, it's my problem now. Do you want some?

• 45:42Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I don't know. What are the problems?

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Well, so.

• 45:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Can I make money?

• 45:47Speaker 02

  But there are huge markets in it. So aquaculture is a $250 billion a year market.

• 45:52Anthony Pompliano?

  What, what does that word mean?

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Sorry, uh, fish farming.

• 45:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Fish farming. Okay, got it.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Fish farming, $250 billion.

• 45:56Anthony Pompliano?

  For normal people like me, fish farming.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there's no technology infrastructure. It's literally just like.

• 46:01Anthony Pompliano?

  And we're, and we're literally like, uh, just like you would, um, create animals to then eat them.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:07Anthony Pompliano?

  We're just creating fish.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  To eat them.

• 46:08Anthony Pompliano?

  To eat them. Okay.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, completely. And there are seaweed farms and other farms, just like vegetables.

• 46:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, hold on, pause. Seaweed farms. Really weird that I know this. Uh, I went super deep and I wanted to start a seaweed farm at one point.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  I sort of still do.

• 46:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, we, we can partner up.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 46:24Anthony Pompliano?

  We'll find some young kid who wants to go play in the ocean and do the seaweed farming. Uh, yeah, hey, there's somebody who's listening.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Is, is anyone gonna, uh?

• 46:30Anthony Pompliano?

  If you, if you want to, uh, if, if you want to start a seaweed farm, reach out to Adam.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  But continue, seaweed farm.

• 46:35Anthony Pompliano?

  So there's a kid, uh, the reason why I figured this out was there's a kid, I think in Seattle, maybe, or somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. What he did was he was. Uh, young, like sixteen, eighteen years old, start a seaweed farm. And what he was doing was, uh, his whole play, uh, in the local paper said something like, he realized that there was a special type of seaweed that if you grew it, you could then put it into cow feed. And that cow feed could drastically reduce the gas output of the cows, AKA cow farts.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  So making vegan cows.

• 47:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Well, they're already vegans.

• 47:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, kind of, but in the sense of this was just an additive to the food they were already eating. And it drastically reduced the CO2 emission of the cow, which is the cow fart. And there at one point, and I don't know if this is still, people believe this or not, but the cow farts were a major contributor to global warming.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  To global warming.

• 47:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And so this whole thing was one of the best ways to attack global warming is to get cows to stop farting so much. And the best way to do that is you put glow, uh, seaweed from the ocean into the cow feed. Sounds crazy. I looked at, I looked at it. Wild business, because here's why. Your point about nobody owns the ocean? It's like, if you want to start a farm, you gotta go buy farmland. You're buying it from somebody.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  In the ocean.

• 47:48Anthony Pompliano?

  You don't have to buy the ocean. Now, sometimes what, what you can do is you can actually get somebody to pay you to do it. Because there's all sorts of things around this aqua, uh, uh, aquaculture, right, all this stuff. And, uh, and so I talked to a couple of people and there's a bunch of very wealthy people around the world, especially in Asia. Who are like, oh, I own an island, like, I'll just go hire, you know, two hundred people from like a home country and I'll just get them to farm seaweed.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Completely.

• 48:12Anthony Pompliano?

  The problem is that the seaweed has to stay fresh to, till you get it somewhere. And so, uh, the whole seaweed farm culture is like very underrated.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  And it's, I think it's all like one company. Like right now.

• 48:23Anthony Pompliano?

  This was, this was like a sixteen year old in a ding, in a dinghy. So like, I'm sure that there might be a couple of companies.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  Like the seaweed that is crispy around sushi rolls and stuff, I think is like a huge, uh, I, I think it's like one company makes all the seaweed sushi wraps, basically.

• 48:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Probably.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Like huge businesses are in the water. Logistics, shipping, carrier freights, all those things, water. Uh, there are a lot of problems with the water and that's why I'm investing in startups that can solve those problems.

• 48:50Anthony Pompliano?

  So you're talking about, uh, surface water, like what's going on in service, but like what's under? Beneath the ocean. We don't know anything down there.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, there's, uh, we have a hundred percent high resolution capture of Mars.

• 49:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  And we have only, I think it's five percent of the earth's seabed at high resolution in, uh, for pictures. So we actually have higher resolution of Mars photos than of the earth's water surface.

• 49:16Anthony Pompliano?

  So we can take better pictures of space than we can of our.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Of our own planet.

• 49:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:22Anthony Pompliano?

  And, and so, why is that?

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Uh, well, basically, that's a great question. My answer.

• 49:28Anthony Pompliano?

  All I knew was great question.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  So my answer to that is, uh, just rolling out the great question. My answer to that is, I believe, um, in the fifties, uh, JFK and Russia, uh, said, we're going to space. Uh, and over the next 10 years.

• 49:46Anthony Pompliano?

  I like how just JFK, not the US.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  It wasn't the US, it was just JFK. Well, he said, he has the speech that's like, we're gonna go to space 'cause we, we, you know, we want to. It's a great speech. You should listen to it just for inspiration sometime. But the, uh, uh, he said, in over 10 years, we got to space and then we got, and we got to the moon.

• 50:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Russia, by the way, they announced their intention to go to space through Twitter bots.

• 50:09Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, go ahead. Sorry.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Called the radio waves.

• 50:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't resist.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  And the, uh, and, and so what happened was NASA got an insane amount of funding. Around the same time, though, in this, in the early sixties, they started another program called NOAA.

• 50:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  And it has been a thousand X less funded than NASA.

• 50:30Anthony Pompliano?

  What, and what is NOAA?

• 50:31Speaker 02

  So NOAA is the monitoring and observation and research of the seas, basically. And so what the, uh, I forget what it actually stands for, National Oceanic, uh, Association and another A. Or an H. No, it's an A. It's an A. NOAA, um, Association, Association.

• 50:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Ocean organization.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  And the, uh, and so the, um, I, so basically, my answer is underfunded. That's why.

• 50:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  So the, the reason it captured space, captured competition and the imagination.

• 51:05Anthony Pompliano?

  I agree with that.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  And so we went and we won. We won the moon. Uh, and.

• 51:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think we went to the moon?

• 51:11Speaker 02

  I do.

• 51:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  I think we went to the moon.

• 51:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Well, uh, they have that experiment where they bounce a, um.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  Uh, off of, uh, there's a mirror up on the moon or a reflection thing and they bounce lasers off of it to prove that there's something that is not from, I mean, it means that we could have crash landed there, but like we, something's on the moon.

• 51:30Anthony Pompliano?

  So there is a mirror that they?

• 51:32Speaker 02

  There's like a, yeah, there's some, uh, there's a big bang theory about it.

• 51:35Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I, I asked a guy one time, I, I like to joke around and be like, oh, we didn't really go like, you know, we, we can't stream Sunday nights, uh, football game.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  It's like, how did we go to the moon?

• 51:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, but like, how were we streaming in the sixties? Why from the moon?

• 51:46Speaker 02

  There are like these polarizing situations like that where it's like, uh, there's no way because like, I can't even screw in a light bulb.

• 51:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, like, like, I'm, I'm obviously joking around, but I did say to one guy, I said, hey, do you believe in, uh, I won't say who it is, but he's hit me with, uh, dude, there's no way we went to the moon. Nobody can show us the flag up there.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's actually, I mean, that's sort of true. They're like, oh, it's on the dark side. Like it's over there.

• 52:10Anthony Pompliano?

  I was like, man, we got a, we got an uphill battle to get people to wrap their head up.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  But I, I do think that we have like, uh, L- L- Land Rover on Mars or whatever, Rover on Mars.

• 52:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, and people don't know about the moon landing was it wasn't just once. It was like, what? Six times in four years or something. Right? Uh, but, but it does, it, the reason why I bring it up is.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  But we haven't gone back. Like we haven't really gone back much. So like.

• 52:32Anthony Pompliano?

  I've flown six times. Yeah.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  And it's been 80 years, 70 years, whatever.

• 52:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, here's the crazy part. So like, imagine all the conspiracy theories around just the moon from 60, 70 years ago to if we land on Mars, oh my God, people are going to be going crazy about every conspiracy theory in the book.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, completely.

• 52:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh my God, that's just VR. Like, that, like, it's not real.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're, we're in a, we're in a simulation, simulation.

• 52:56Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. What, what is the biggest opportunity in the ocean? Like if you could say, if you said, if one company solves X.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  So the biggest enabler of opportunity, which I would argue is the biggest thing is persistent internet.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  On the water.

• 53:12Anthony Pompliano?

  On the water or under the water?

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Both, but to to enable under and over to be able to communicate. Right now, there's a problem where submarines can't really talk to airplanes. Like, it's a weird problem. Um, there aren't very many people who run into this problem, I will say. But also just-

• 53:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Just the submarines that can't talk to the airplanes?

• 53:30Speaker 02

  But but uh, I think of it like if there's a network uh, on the ocean, then suddenly it's gonna enable more, like enable more fishermen to be out there, enable more data to be harnessed. Uh, just like, you know, without GPS, Uber wouldn't have been enabled.

• 53:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  Like without, like there are these little uh, technology hurdles. And right now, we we have internet covered on land pretty well. Not everywhere, but pretty well. Uh, there's nothing on the ocean. And so in order to get data, like photo, video, whatever, data from a buoy offshore to land, it's very expensive.

• 54:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  So cheapening that will allow for new companies, new stuff. So I would take communications on the on-

• 54:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, there's probably some kind of uh, some kind of metric of like-

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Just getting water?

• 54:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that's fine. Uh, we got that out of the ocean. Um, there's probably something around like the number of connected devices per square mile on land versus the number of connected devices per square mile in the ocean. It's probably like egregiously uh-

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:32Anthony Pompliano?

  -swayed in one direction.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And I I would also say like, success based on what? I think that there are a lot of things that could uh, be really, really big businesses. Like, I think the answers to most of humanity's fu- future 50-year problems, like, how do we feed 9 billion people? How do we give fresh water to 9 billion people? How do we um, are answered by the ocean? And like, I think people are blind to it because we're very uh, crypto people will appreciate it, uh, we're very Terra maximalist. Like, because we're here, we like have farmed animals. 2014 was the first year that we farmed more fish than we caught, whi- which I I would argue on land is like 99.9% of all food is caught. I mean, is is uh, farmed.

• 55:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  And so we still have like forty nine percent.

• 55:21Anthony Pompliano?

  We just had the flipping.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, we had a flipping of the oceans. I'm that's here. I'm gonna write that down. That's my next blog post, the flipping of the oceans.

• 55:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Jesus Christ. Okay. All right. So the other thing about the ocean that's super interesting is like.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  We've even gotten to crypto.

• 55:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I don't care about crypto.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Okay, good.

• 55:39Anthony Pompliano?

  No, but the thing about the ocean that is is kind of fascinating to me is just not only do we not know anything, but then it seems like every time somebody goes and does something crazy in the ocean, we figure stuff out. We're like, whoa, what the hell was that?

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you? Who's the billionaire guy who I think he's billionaire, maybe he's a multimillionaire who he keeps going to the depths of the ocean, like the deepest points of the different seas.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  James Cameron is one.

• 56:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. So he's the movie guy, right?

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's the movie guy.

• 56:05Anthony Pompliano?

  And Aquaman?

• 56:06Speaker 02

  There's another guy who runs a company in Seattle who's built a he's he's trying to make it a tourist.

• 56:13Anthony Pompliano?

  There's a guy, I think he's not from the US and he keeps going down in these one man submarines.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:19Anthony Pompliano?

  And he's just like, yeah, awesome. I went to the deepest part of the Indian Ocean. If you're like, what? And he's like, yeah, you guys are trying to go to space. I went to the ocean.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, no.

• 56:25Anthony Pompliano?

  The floor, like I touched the floor of the Indian Ocean.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  I think there is a segment of people who are sort of like, why are we going to space? Like, I think I'm doing both. Like, I've backed space companies too, but like, I also do have a, hey, why go against gravity? We could use gravity as the energy source to get us things down there. And by creating an ownership model in the ocean, like showing that you can make money in the ocean, I actually think the trash heap naturally will clean itself up. So, long story short, I am the solution to climate change.

• 57:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Not what I thought you were gonna say.

• 57:04Anthony Pompliano?

  You want to know one of the things that fascinates me that people don't know?

• 57:07Speaker 02

  What?

• 57:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Is the underwater cables.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, people have no clue. They just think like it's magic. Like, yeah, I just used this internet thing and it just like flew around the world real quick.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  There's a great book called The Victorian Internet.

• 57:20Anthony Pompliano?

  The Victorian Internet?

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:22Anthony Pompliano?

  What's that about?

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Basically, it's about the first people laying cables to create the telegraph lines between Europe and the US and how they failed four times. And this guy was the, it's not Morse, the Morse guy who created Morse code. It's not him, but there was a predecessor who laid the cables to make this happen and how it was his just like quest to make sure that we connected Europe and the US. I mean, there's these big, big cables, like they're huge.

• 57:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, dude, you ever been in the ocean?

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:54Anthony Pompliano?

  This is a pretty big place.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, they're huge. And it's, well, they're also like thick. They're like huge fricking cables. And just think about like, when one of those cables goes out, it's like, how much progress is lost?

• 58:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, yeah, devastating.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And how really, if you figure out where it is, like, that's a huge insurance problem. Like, that's trillions of dollars that are just like down, like, in every country, not only the US.

• 58:23Anthony Pompliano?

  It's national security stuff too, right?

• 58:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 58:26Anthony Pompliano?

  You could imagine that if all of a sudden, we or somebody else knew where ours were, or we knew where theirs were, and all of a sudden, they decided, hey, I'm just gonna go cut this.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Well, also, the Victorian, the Victorian Internet also talks about how the telegraph led to the first level of hackers, where people were like, creating coded messages and decoding them because of, and I mean, it's just fascinating. It's fascinating stuff.

• 58:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, lots of reading. What's the one thing that you're excited about in space?

• 58:53Speaker 02

  In space?

• 58:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  I'm really excited about software.

• 59:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 59:01Speaker 02

  In space.

• 59:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Because it's.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Not there.

• 59:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Explain it.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  The, uh, okay. So basically, uh, well, I'm gonna reference one of our companies, but there's a company called

• 59:13Anthony Pompliano?

  That's fine. You can show whatever you want.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I'm chilling. Um, but there's a company called Cube OS and what they do is, uh, basically they saw that he was working at a company called Spire that was a satellite, uh, mini, micro, mini satellite, micro satellites? Mini satellites?

• 59:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Small.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  The small satellite, uh, manufacturer, um, and it's a big company and he realized that

• 59:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Big company, small satellite.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  All these, all these, uh, hardware engineers were building the software for this device. And he, he, he was like, this is, this doesn't make any sense. So he created an open source community that was for space software.

• 59:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Which is wild. There is an open source space software community. Um, and then he realized that it's difficult to test software in space. So every satellite has basically the same sensors. So they have, uh, uh, it's like the, what's the red sensor and the, the lasers and heat and, uh, like they have basically seven sensors. And then, uh, what, but they all coordinate differently, just like a computer. A computer has basically all the same pieces, but there's, uh, an operating system that ties them all together. They were trying, they're trying to be the Android of this space, but they also can be sort of the AWS. And so they are actually live on two satellites right now where, uh, people can test their software.

• 1:00:28Anthony Pompliano?

  That's pretty cool.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  In space.

• 1:00:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Dude, there was about 24 months ago, there was a bunch of these space companies that all started to build stuff like they were doing scientific testing on the ISS. They were doing all this stuff. And, uh, that was big when it was, uh, what? Mining, uh, asteroids?

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Got really, like, everyone was talking about that. And then also, uh, if you looked into, uh, space manufacturing.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Oh, super cool.

• 1:00:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Like people are gonna send up stuff, they're gonna manufacture in space and then send it back down to Earth.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  And what you, and what you can do is you can build enormous things. That are, that you, because it's just flown out there. So like 3D printing in space is gonna, like, the killer app of 3D printing is really space manufacturing. It is not on land. Well, it's, it's iterative processing, I guess. Um, or houses. I'm really excited about 3D printed houses.

• 1:01:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Same.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you could give a house, like, you know, the Tom shoes?

• 1:01:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  You could give a house by buying a house.

• 1:01:20Anthony Pompliano?

  But, but the other piece of it that's interesting is not only how fast it can be built, how, uh, Efficiently, right, in terms of costs that can be built. Um, but also I think that it changes the way, if you know that you're going to move into a 3D house, you immediately are okay with lower expectations in terms of the square footage you need.

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? Like, like it completely changes the way that people think about their home. And we go from, oh, I need a basketball court in my house and that would be really sweet to, you know what, like, I'm pretty okay living in this 3D printed house because it's, it's cool. I can talk about it, blah, blah, whatever. It's like a new age type of quote unquote wealth, but without the price tag.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  Completely. No, I think three, I mean, I think they're going to be reasonably priced. And I think you really don't need that much space. That's what like,

• 1:02:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  I mean, at Boost, we do provide housing and the accommodations are not huge. They are, it's like a dorm room.

• 1:02:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Bigger or smaller, okay.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  It's like a dorm room and it has bunk beds. And so these teams are literally stacked on top of each other.

• 1:02:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Do, do you have a lottery for who gets top, who gets bottom?

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  That's a brilliant idea. We should actually do that.

• 1:02:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Just do it in VR though.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  Matty.

• 1:02:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Matty, I don't know who you are, but I just gave you an idea. I want to.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Matty, we should do that.

• 1:02:37Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So crypto, this thing that you're supposed to come here and talk about.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, I'm here.

• 1:02:42Anthony Pompliano?

  So first of all, uh,

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Well, I talked, did I, I already talked about Brian Armstrong. So.

• 1:02:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, we just sucker people in with the Brian Armstrong story to then let them listen to space and notions.

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're like, oh, well, he invested in.

• 1:02:55Anthony Pompliano?

  I have a couple of questions. One, uh, your father, Tim Draper,

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, always tells a story about how he initially got excited about digital currencies with a son asking to buy a sword. Was that you?

• 1:03:08Speaker 02

  Uh, so no, he's actually telling a tangential story of a, uh, he was in, I believe it was in Korea. And there's this game that 25% of the country was playing called like Legends.

• 1:03:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  And they, and he was being told by someone that their son,

• 1:03:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, got it, got it.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  His gift for Christmas was a like $1,000 sword or like $1,500 sword or something.

• 1:03:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Expensive sword.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  But this was, this was pre crypto, pre digital currencies, pre. And it was just-

• 1:03:37Anthony Pompliano?

  If I'm clear, it's like early 2000s.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, early 2000s. And if my dad started realizing that not only software was going to be expensive in the digital world, it's also going to be like items. Like you can develop value of things in a digital world, depending on how much time you're spending in those places. And so he, I think that was his deep seated like thought-

• 1:03:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  That kept through when cryptocurrencies started to pop up. Uh, he, he did, uh, so we always debate about which of us invested in a crypto company first.

• 1:04:10Anthony Pompliano?

  This is what I was gonna get to because if I remember correctly, he passed on Coinbase or he didn't invest and you did?

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  So, yes.

• 1:04:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Uh, he, he invested in a company called Coin Lab before me.

• 1:04:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Coin Lab, alright.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  Which is no longer around. And-

• 1:04:27Anthony Pompliano?

  That was an L for him.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it was, and I did Coinbase and then I brought it to him and I said, you should, you should do this deal. Uh, and he, they were, they, he and someone else were, uh, like, uh, no, we already have one. Like, we got one, they're not gonna be, it's a winner take all, whatever. Um, and I'm making, my, my dad was actually very enthusiastic. I'm making it sound like he was the one saying that. My dad's never the one saying that. The, uh, he's like a crazy positive person. The, but he did think like, okay, we have one, like, you know, if it's not a winner take all, someone will, they'll do well. But he also, at the same time, it was a mining company and we both put in a purchase order for, uh, future mining, mined Bitcoin,

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  um, of a significant amount of Bitcoin at the time because the price of Bitcoin was like, uh, you know, five to $30. Like, that was basically the range. And they never delivered on that, that account, which led my dad to actually buy the US Marshall coin.

• 1:05:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  Because it was that many Bitcoin that he was supposed to have. And so he bought it at a much more expensive price later.

• 1:05:33Anthony Pompliano?

  The, the Marshall story's crazy, but the, but the fact that you invested in Coinbase first and he didn't is, uh-

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:40Anthony Pompliano?

  You get the last laugh.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  Well, you know, well, Marshall coin, not, not a bad investment. He, he called me that morning, uh, and he said, uh- He called me, I was on my way to work, I was gonna turn on the El Camino, you guys need to know these details. These are important details about where I was, what mindset I was in.

• 1:05:59Anthony Pompliano?

  They don't have virtual reality, so it's the next best thing.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  I was listening to Taylor Swift in my Jeep and the, uh, well, Shake It Off, uh, just to get in the, in the right mindset. And then, uh, followed by Tim McGraw and then my dad called me and literally he didn't even say like, hey, it's dad. He said, uh, he said, should I do it? And I didn't know what that meant. I was like, I have no context. I'm just driving to work and he said, should I do it? I said, I do what? Um, and he said, should I put it in my bid, uh, for the Marshall coin, uh, the US Marshall coin? Um, he made the assumption that everyone was gonna bid under the market price and so he bid over.

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  And I, uh, and I was like, you know, if I could, I would because I'm like such a true believer and like, we're in a weird spot in the market. It feels like a good time. Um, and so he hung up on me. I didn't know he was gonna buy the whole thing. I, I, I thought it was gonna be like, I'm putting in a bid for some, you know? Like you could have put it in a bid and bought like a certain amount and like he bought, he bought like, he bought the whole cart. Um, and the next like five, and I didn't find that, that out until like the next, um, it's two days later when it was released everywhere in media, like it was just all over. And I was like, you put it, you got the whole thing? Would have been nice to get the heads up.

• 1:07:19Anthony Pompliano?

  And also pray that I'm right. If you're right, you're a legend. If not, oh man.

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, well, and then I gave him the advice. I was like the final say, like if I said no, like he probably would have second guessed. He might've still gotten it, but he might've second guessed his thought. Um, yeah. So that's the Marshall coin.

• 1:07:36Anthony Pompliano?

  So, uh, what's your thoughts on crypto today?

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Crypto's awesome.

• 1:07:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  Today. Um, I think, I, I don't think I've been this excited about crypto.

• 1:07:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you, wait, hold on, let's, let's get, uh, your affinities on the table first.

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:07:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin believer, non-believer?

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  Believer.

• 1:07:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Big believer?

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Like global reserve currency a hundred years from now believer or?

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  Like, I'm not again, like, okay, first, I believe that if.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  The impossible can happen. So like, could Bitcoin be disrupted? Yes.

• 1:08:12Anthony Pompliano?

  I agree with that.

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  To date, I believe Bitcoin will be a global reserve currency.

• 1:08:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, I agree with that too. Timeline?

• 1:08:22Anthony Pompliano?

  And obviously, the timeline isn't, don't hold on to it.

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Please do. Hold me to it.

• 1:08:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, what do you think it is? Twenty years, fifty years?

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  So what I do say, there are two predictions. So one is, I say, in the next fifteen years, ten years, actually, I say ten years, there will be more digital currency than fiat.

• 1:08:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  Okay. Value of digital currency.

• 1:08:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Isn't there already more XRP?

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  No, and I'm, what?

• 1:08:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Kidding, I'm kidding.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Okay, then, you're gonna be delirious, state. Okay, but the, so I believe, I believe that to be true in the next ten years. Global reserve currency, I think things happen fast when they happen, but I still think it's twenty-five years. Like, I think reasonably, trust is being built right now. It's gonna work for certain, like, cultures, certain nations, certain places.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  I still, like, I think Bitcoin works the way the internet works, where it's like, I don't talk about the internet, like, I just talk about using products on the internet. And so, like, I think Bitcoin works when I can just buy things using, maybe it's US dollars, maybe the denomination is something else.

• 1:09:40Anthony Pompliano?

  I always joke and say, like, like, the US dollar is digital currency.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? What, eight, seven percent is in physical coins or notes? Like, the rest of it's digital and everybody?

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  They type in more numbers on a, like, I would love to know how that actually works.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  Ethereum, I believe that there are gonna be different protocols for different things. Like, I think, you know, you might. I do think lightning is gonna work. I think we will be able to use. I think scale is not gonna be a problem.

• 1:10:08Anthony Pompliano?

  We gotta go slow because I'm not smart. So Bitcoin believer, lightning, why do you think it's gonna work?

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  So why I think lightning's gonna work?

• 1:10:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Lightning, he's talking about lightning.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  So the same reason that I thought Bitcoin was gonna work, like, there are really, really smart people building really, really great things.

• 1:10:23Anthony Pompliano?

  It's probably the best execution we're seeing in crypto behind maybe Binance.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  I, yeah, I mean, I think it's just good. Like, I think lightning's just, like, at the.

• 1:10:32Anthony Pompliano?

  How do people make money if lightning works? Like, what are the ways that you think about if lightning works as a layer two scaling technology? The places to invest will be blank. What's blank?

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  Well, then it becomes sort of like how to be a gateway for either real world things or natively digital things. So I would probably, if, if, if that just all of a sudden happens, I would probably invest in VR meets crypto. Or like assets in that world. I believe non-fungible tokens are undervalued like crazy.

• 1:11:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  The reason is I believe that most opportunity lies in regulatory uncertainty. So crypto was a good example. Oceans, that's a good example.

• 1:11:17Anthony Pompliano?

  There are no laws on the ocean.

• 1:11:18Speaker 02

  And I think that non-fungible tokens are gonna walk this line where they aren't an asset. It would be the equivalent of regulating like Beanie Babies, which is a ridiculous concept. And I think that NFTs are going to be able to get through all the regulatory like fear and allow the end consumer to use, to use crypto without using crypto. And so like, I, I think that suddenly we're all gonna be using these assets, these digital assets that represent like a kitty or a whatever, when really it's show, it's, it's paving the education gap

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  to denominating this entire building in a cryptocurrency, like being able to auction off pieces of this building. And it's, it's really about education at that point.

• 1:12:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think that the NFTs, like, what's the timeline for to get through the regulatory uncertainty? Are we talking like?

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  I mean, I think

• 1:12:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Twelve months or ten years?

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  I think it's more about like, we just need a good use case for the, like, we need a good game. I, we, I, we haven't seen good yet. I haven't seen good yet. Like, I think, uh,

• 1:12:23Anthony Pompliano?

  See, NFTs to me are the perfect example of great idea, wrong time.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm not farting. I, I just moved.

• 1:12:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Chairs are really noisy.

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  It's squeaky. It's a squeaky chair. It's good audio room, though. This is good audio room.

• 1:12:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it, it's fine. We, we have experts in the room, not me.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  But yeah, no, I, I think NFTs are just undervalued because they are such a

• 1:12:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Too early?

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  No, I, I think you could build a good game, like, you, you need to, people need to stop thinking that they're starting at the end. Like, I just want someone who really, truly wants to build out a great, uh, the, what, what's the, get, um, Magic the Gathering game on the blockchain. And then fiddle with the blockchain as a tool that creates new gamified experiences. Like, I think a lot of people think, like, they launch and then everyone uses it. And like, I, I mean, that's obviously not true. Like, I think the most used product is CryptoKitties in the crypto space, Bitcoin, but CryptoKitties in the actual non-financial space.

• 1:13:25Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you think governments are gonna do? How do they play? Forget regu-, not regulators, like, security, not a security, but like, what do central banks do, etc.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  Okay. So I'm gonna give you two worlds.

• 1:13:37Anthony Pompliano?

  All right.

• 1:13:37Speaker 02

  The first world is my fare to the banking system world.

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  I believe all I really, truly want are better services. Like, at the end of the day, that's all I want. I want

• 1:13:47Anthony Pompliano?

  All the user cares about is can you help me do what I wanna do?

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just, like, when my, when I want my money, I want my money. Uh, when I wanna pay for something, I wanna pay for something. I don't care if it's the bank or Bitcoin. It's just, the bank has developed such poor service that they forgot who their customer was.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  And then, on the other side, Bitcoin is developing more trust. Even though it started as like a drug dealing tool, it's developing more and more trust where people just rely on it. Twenty-four seven uptime for ten years is something that no one has been able to.

• 1:14:19Anthony Pompliano?

  So my whole theory here is that people would trust machines and algorithms more than they trust humans. And inherently, banks are run by humans, the financial system is run by humans, but Bitcoin is run by an algorithm.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  Completely.

• 1:14:32Anthony Pompliano?

  That just can't fail.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  And back to this.

• 1:14:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Can't, can't is just like, there could be security concerns, there could be fifty-one percent tax, all that, but like, the way that it is programmed is it never goes down.

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  And back to the persistence, like, things don't really get flipped on until persistence happens, like, Bitcoin is a persistent currency, like, there are no bank hours. Like, it's not, I'm relying on my bank to be open. That's not a persistent money. Like, that isn't, that's a choppy money. I can only access my money for these hours. That's a ridiculous concept.

• 1:15:02Anthony Pompliano?

  The stock market's closed more hours a week than it is open, all that kind of stuff, right? But the, the best example of Bitcoin is, so Venezuela powers, the power grid went down. The grid went down. And everyone on the internet's been all up in arms about this idea that like, people are saying, oh, Venezuela's power grid going down shows the power of Bitcoin. They're like, how the hell can you use Bitcoin without the power? Right? But what a number of Venezuelans have posted different stories on Reddit, etc., is, look, the power grid was down, the banking system was down. I have a generator. I turned my generator on. I could not use the legacy system. I could not go on my website for the bank, I could not go to the ATM, I couldn't do anything, even though I have power, but the, but the power grid is down.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  And because they could do that.

• 1:15:44Anthony Pompliano?

  But with Bitcoin, all I have to do is I just have to hit.

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  I read that.

• 1:15:47Anthony Pompliano?

  I just have to hit the network, and as long as I have power, doesn't matter if anybody else in my country has power, I can still access my money because I can hit the Bitcoin network.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  Persistence. I think persistence is more.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  Value like I think people don't because it by it being there you can develop trust in it and I think that's why you know Uber is this persistent it delivers certainty like I know when the car is coming around the corner I know that's something like this next generation doesn't know that we had to blindly wait for cars or taxis like we had to like we had to hope that someone was gonna show up and then eventually you get a call that's like oh we're like 30 minutes out and you're like well I'll go back inside like I think that's like crazy there's so much transparency so much certainty yeah I think persistence I think that's the power of Bitcoin persistent money accessibility if there's energy

• 1:16:39Anthony Pompliano?

  That's fair what do you think are the one or two companies that somebody should build in crypto that you haven't seen yet

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  Okay the things I'm excited about right now that's sort of like asking me what I'm excited about

• 1:16:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah you just took the question and asked your own question go ahead

• 1:16:53Anthony Pompliano?

  It's your podcast

• 1:16:54Speaker 02

  I mean what should they build okay build the craziest possible thing like

• 1:16:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Like what's the craziest possible thing you could imagine somebody building right now

• 1:17:05Speaker 02

  First you have to start with the word global

• 1:17:11Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm gonna send you a pitch deck with just the word global

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  Ready ready this is it

• 1:17:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Go ahead

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  An ocean city

• 1:17:19Anthony Pompliano?

  An ocean city

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  Built with the economies denominated in Bitcoin

• 1:17:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  That would be the craziest thing I could think of right now

• 1:17:26Anthony Pompliano?

  An ocean city I've actually seen people pitch this before which is basically something that floats in the ocean and acts almost like an island but it's a standalone city

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  Standalone city

• 1:17:37Anthony Pompliano?

  And all of the commerce that's done is done with a single global currency called Bitcoin

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  Which connects them to the rest of the world

• 1:17:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  So that would be one of the craziest things but if we're talking about like applications

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  I think that

• 1:17:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Somebody's gonna tweet at us and be like I'm building a city in the ocean will you come visit

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  I hope so

• 1:17:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  Crypto portfolios are already underwater

• 1:18:03Anthony Pompliano?

  That was good. Somebody on the live stream just said crypto portfolios are already underwater.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  We're already building the digital land of the ocean.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  I would say, so what I'm really excited about right now are user interfaces. So like, I think that there's, I was drawing this to a other thing.

• 1:18:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh man, you look like, you look at my notebook, you just draw a bunch of stuff.

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  And it looks like you can't read any.

• 1:18:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, you can't read any of the words and then you just look at people like, did you get it?

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  But I think that it's like, the power of decentralized services is the difference. First, the difference is basically like centralized services, let's take iTunes App Store, the App Store, the Apple App Store, for instance. We interact with the user interface, that interface is governed by a process at Apple. And then that is built on top of the internet, that is a open rails.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  The difference between, that is completely controlled by Apple, that entire process. Now, in the decentralized world, the governance system and the user interface are separated. So suddenly, Augur could build their own interface. But I think what we're learning is that they should just work on, like, different DAPs, that's the DAP layer, the governance layer, the peer-to-peer network, should be building their peer-to-peer network, which is smart contracts and.

• 1:19:28Anthony Pompliano?

  So you're basically making the argument that there shouldn't be vertical integration, but Augur should work on the protocol and then things like Vale should come along and build the interface.

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  Or Guessr, but yes.

• 1:19:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you invest?

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  I did.

• 1:19:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:19:40Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:19:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Is it better?

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  They're different. They're different, like.

• 1:19:46Anthony Pompliano?

  You're an animal, you're a politician.

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  Like, but I genuinely do think they're different. Well.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Like, I'm not an investor in Vale, but I'm also saying, like, they're just different. They're going, they're gonna end up going after different markets.

• 1:19:59Anthony Pompliano?

  But it's two separate interfaces using the same.

• 1:20:01Speaker 02

  Using the same protocol that's built on top of the, no, using the same DAP that's built on the same protocol. So like, the stack today is Ethereum on the protocol, the DAP layer is Augur, and then the interface is Vale or Guessr. This is gonna, you're gonna see this stack replicated over a bunch of different.

• 1:20:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's call that fragmentation, right, of the stack. Do you think that the fragmentation has to happen first before then we can get vertical integration? Or is it likely to happen? Forget if it has to, but is it likely to?

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  I mean, I think what we're gonna learn is like, smart contracts might have their own protocol and the way that people use those smart contracts, I'm sorry, not their own protocol, like Ethereum might have a bunch of different smart contracts layers. Augur is specifically for prediction markets. So gambling is a great use case. Global gambling is like, why crypto? I want to be able to bet a million dollars against someone who's in Africa. Like, you couldn't do that today. Like, you could not figure out how to do

• 1:21:04Anthony Pompliano?

  that. I love how, like, the elites call professional gambling investing. No, it's still gambling, right? Like, if you really think about it, like, if you buy that building, you are taking a probability bet that you're gonna make money off of it.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  More time and value will be going into that after you buy.

• 1:21:23Anthony Pompliano?

  That's still gambling, right?

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Still gambling.

• 1:21:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. It's just less risky we claim.

• 1:21:27Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, it is.

• 1:21:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Unless you're buying in 2007.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  You can have a hand in the outcome, but in gambling, you can probably have a hand in the outcome. So, most of the time, unless it's literally just craps or, you know, well, you can still, you can learn the game, you can learn the odds. So I think gambling is gonna be a good first use case, because it was a good first use case with Bitcoin. Like, it was a fantastic use case. Like, there are still Bitcoin-related casinos built on the internet that are not supposed to be accessed by the US, but people VPN in and then they gamble.

• 1:22:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, somebody on the livestream is from VPNing from Iceland.

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  I can neither confirm nor deny whether or not I have done it, okay? But in general, I think that, also, by the way, my interface concept completely relates to Coinbase. Coinbase is an interface that interacted originally just with Bitcoin, which is built on the blockchain. Like, I think there is a separation, but they are the same, they are interwoven so tightly.

• 1:22:28Anthony Pompliano?

  And does the most value accrue to the protocol, to the DAP, or to the interface?

• 1:22:35Speaker 02

  So, I think personally, so I do think the protocol generates value. Like, it's going to generate a lot of money. It's gonna be a big deal. You will make money if you hold that protocol. However...

• 1:22:48Speaker 02

  I believe that the closest to the consumer makes the most money.

• 1:22:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:22:53Anthony Pompliano?

  So the farther you get away from the.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  The farther you get away, the less money you make.

• 1:22:57Anthony Pompliano?

  The farther you get away from the consumer, the less money you make.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Or another way to think about it is if there are multiple layers stacked on top of the protocol, the farther you get away from the protocol, the more money you'll make.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  Yes. So the farther away from the protocol. So my, it's actually a little contrarian in the market is like, I, I think that the, the UI ends up being the winner. But it might get super fragmented. So you might be able, there are going to be a thousand UIs that are augur on top of Ethereum. Like, there could be a thousand.

• 1:23:27Anthony Pompliano?

  So, so.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  That are used for different things, like will verticalize in different ways.

• 1:23:33Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I definitely agree with you and I think that owning equity in those companies is going to be way more valuable than owning tokens over a long period of time. Especially because there is a, there's a higher probability than not that the most important protocols are already built. Now, which ones are they is a whole other situation.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  So I, I'm certain, I always think disruption can happen, but I am certain that the ones that builders are building on, it's the stuff that's there. Like, people just want to build and so like Ethereum is being used and built on. You know, Bitcoin is being used and built on. Like, people are trying the things that are tried and true because the market's there. Like, they don't want to build an app on something that doesn't have any velocity.

• 1:24:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  Like, if there's no velocity, like, why?

• 1:24:19Anthony Pompliano?

  I agree with that. What's the one thing that you would change in crypto if you could?

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  I would say.

• 1:24:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Other than own more Bitcoin?

• 1:24:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would, I would stack that up.

• 1:24:32Speaker 02

  The one thing I would change is, not the speculation, I actually think the speculation did a service to the market.

• 1:24:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Agreed.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  I would change, I, I want people to see the actual value, though. Like, I, I think it would just be like better education. That's what I would say is like, I think. People went in because they saw money and they know they're supposed to make money. Like, that's a thing in humans. Like, we're supposed to make money, so let's, there's money there, let's go to it. I would much rather people be building towards like their own personal mission and if crypto overlaps with it, uh, they build with that. So I, it's an education thing rather than, I think there's so little good education and it does take time. And buying crypto helps where you have skin in the game, like to educate yourself on it. But I, I would love just better financial education as well as in crypto.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  It helps you understand how incentives work and then it helps you understand, like, at the, at the end of the day, it makes better services. And so like, it almost says nothing. If I could change one thing, I want the words blockchain, crypto and Bitcoin to go away. And I want people to be using them.

• 1:25:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I completely agree. Look, we, we talk about a lot, uh, we're moving to a digital world and you need digitally native assets, you need digitally native accounting, you need digitally native contracts.

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  And the winners are the gateways right now. So it's like-

• 1:25:57Anthony Pompliano?

  And by the way, we didn't just use blockchain or crypto in any of that.

• 1:26:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And in a digital world, you need to be immersed yourself in it, which is virtual reality.

• 1:26:04Anthony Pompliano?

  That's fair. In the ocean.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then you need an ocean that has Bitcoin native population.

• 1:26:10Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Rapid fire to end this thing.

• 1:26:12Speaker 02

  Fantastic.

• 1:26:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Cause I have to go pretend to be an adult and do other things.

• 1:26:15Speaker 02

  I probably do too. What time is it?

• 1:26:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, you probably have like a meeting or something. I don't know. We've been talking for like six hours. What's the most important company in crypto?

• 1:26:25Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, you say it again?

• 1:26:27Anthony Pompliano?

  What's the most important company, what's the most important company in crypto?

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  Uh, most important, no wonder we covered so much of your legroom. The most important company in crypto is Coinbase.

• 1:26:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Ah, that's usually the second most important company I say after Facebook, but why do you say Coinbase? Just because of the interface and brought so many people on?

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I just think they legitimize the space. Like, I think people don't give Brian specifically enough credit for what he had to do and uh, how much value he's delivered to the market by educating institutions, by educating investors and building a product that was the easiest way to get in.

• 1:27:07Speaker 02

  I would also say, I would also say on the other side, on the jurisdictional arbitrage side, I would say Binance is really important. So I would actually, third is Facebook.

• 1:27:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Third? My whole thing is just they've got the users, whatever they give to people.

• 1:27:22Speaker 02

  People are gonna have.

• 1:27:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Good, bad, indifferent. It's gonna be a billion plus people.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  I think we're gonna be pleasantly surprised.

• 1:27:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, completely, completely agree.

• 1:27:30Speaker 02

  Uh, by the Facebook token.

• 1:27:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think it's gonna be decentralized?

• 1:27:35Speaker 02

  I mean, ish. Like, I think that they will have steps towards decentralization. That's what my guess would be. I would guess that it's built in a way.

• 1:27:44Anthony Pompliano?

  I would say that it's gonna be more decentralized than people are anticipating.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I bet, I, I, I believe that this is their true, uh, this is David Marcus's mission. He wants this to exist and he's true about it. I do think that Facebook wouldn't build something if they're not gonna control a piece of it. Like, I, I.

• 1:28:02Anthony Pompliano?

  See, that's where I actually disagree. I, I think that they can control a lot of the infrastructure and interfaces and stuff.

• 1:28:07Speaker 02

  So they're thinking.

• 1:28:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Like the actual currency itself.

• 1:28:09Speaker 02

  It could be the glue that sort of interacts with everything. They would, they would have, they would single-handedly be the biggest nation on the planet that has their own native currency.

• 1:28:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Look, I, I worked at the company, I'm biased, I'll throw it all out there, right? But the one thing that I know about that group of people, they're not playing for second place.

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? Like, like they're gonna go try to change the world and do some, like, just epic stuff.

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  You're, you're saying we're building a digital world? Like, we could argue that Facebook already did build it and that they, there is no native currency there yet and now there is one. And so, I mean, I also, you know, I also think Twitter's gonna play a big role. Like, I, I mean, it does. As far as communicating with Twitter people, like, like crypto people. And he's made, he's openly made just incredible moves towards making more leaders of the world excited about Bitcoin. Like.

• 1:29:01Speaker 02

  When I, when I

• 1:29:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Jack made Bitcoin cool.

• 1:29:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, when I go to these meetings with, well, you do this too, but endowments, foundations, institutions, like, it's no longer like, should we, or like, I'm not investing in crypto. It was default no for a really long time. Now it's, I'm going to, how am I going to?

• 1:29:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  And their questions are much more around like, how should we allocate? Not so, it's smart, it's good questions. It's not about how it works anymore.

• 1:29:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  And they have an infection in every group. Like, there's one.

• 1:29:33Anthony Pompliano?

  The virus, the virus has spread.

• 1:29:34Speaker 02

  The virus spread. The virus infected like somebody and they're just obsessive about it in every single group.

• 1:29:40Anthony Pompliano?

  The, the, um, we should go and pitch institutions together and like, just go dress like this and I'm like, he's so smart, he's so smart.

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  So I've learned, uh, this can be one of my last lines if you want it to be, but I've learned that there are two types of people in this world.

• 1:29:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:29:54Speaker 02

  The people who accept the person who wears orange pants and the people who do not.

• 1:30:00Anthony Pompliano?

  And that's their problem, right?

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  And that's on them. And so it's like, you know, I'm just being as me as possible in the meetings.

• 1:30:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  And I'm not, I'm, I'm just.

• 1:30:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Do ever people like, is there like a visceral reaction to the orange pants?

• 1:30:13Speaker 02

  No, it's just always like, is this person taking it seriously enough? And so like, there's a little bit of an uphill battle explaining myself sometimes. But like, in general, it's more, uh, you know, you, well, the first question they always ask is how many pairs do you have?

• 1:30:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And how many?

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  Well, two.

• 1:30:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Two? How many days have you been wearing this pair?

• 1:30:31Speaker 02

  Four in a row.

• 1:30:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Four in a row? That's not that bad.

• 1:30:34Speaker 02

  It was my trip to New York.

• 1:30:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, like sometimes I wear the same socks like seven days in a row, whatever.

• 1:30:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, socks, man.

• 1:30:40Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

• 1:30:43Anthony Pompliano?

  I thought you were just gonna roll with that. I was gonna be really worried. I thought you were gonna be like, actually I wore mine one time eight days.

• 1:30:47Speaker 02

  Like, I actually, I don't know why I'm that way about socks. Like, I really don't wanna wear twice.

• 1:30:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Two days in a row. No, that, that, that, that's a cross.

• 1:30:55Speaker 02

  They get a little, uh.

• 1:30:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Pants are fine, whatever. Even t-shirts would be a little weird.

• 1:30:58Speaker 02

  I'll admit, I go into my, when my dirty laundry is, uh, like overwhelming, I'll go into the dirty socks and like pick them out if I'm out of socks.

• 1:31:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. You have cleaner dirty socks on right now?

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  Uh, these are clean. Yeah, I only pack clean socks. So we're good on, we're good on socks.

• 1:31:14Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. What's the most important book you've ever read?

• 1:31:17Speaker 02

  So it depends on stage of my life. I would say overall, I reread Harry Potter and I think it just captures the imagination in a way. One of my biggest fears is that people's imaginations are dying and I, one of the vehicles I use to try to change that is through investing in companies that are going crazy and doing things. And then on the, I would say, so Harry Potter, and then on the other side, I think essentialism came at a perfect time for me personally, where I was becoming very overwhelmed with a lot of different things, family and work, and the, and it helped me just focus on the right things at the right time. So I would say

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  those are the two that are on the top of my head that like, as far as impact on my life, those two.

• 1:32:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Are aliens real?

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  I have so many thoughts. You're asking me like the, the deep questions now.

• 1:32:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, come on. We got five minutes. Alien is real. And then you could ask me a question, then we're done.

• 1:32:15Speaker 02

  First up, if we go to a planet, we are aliens.

• 1:32:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, that's fair.

• 1:32:20Speaker 02

  So aliens are real.

• 1:32:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, well, only if we go to a planet. But do you count the moon as a planet?

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  No, it's a, what are they called? I wish I had the word on the top of my head. The, the, so my, my answer is, I'd like to believe, did you see this story that like, there was a, that they feel that there was a spaceship?

• 1:32:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, it's a Harvard professor.

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  A Harvard professor believes there was a real spaceship?

• 1:32:45Anthony Pompliano?

  I need to get, I need a alien expert to come on and debunk my beliefs or prove them correct, because I'm at the point now where-

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  You're full alien.

• 1:32:55Anthony Pompliano?

  I mean, look, again, you can go to math argument and just be like, come on, but-

• 1:32:59Speaker 02

  I mean, you've talked to crypto people. How can you not believe in aliens?

• 1:33:02Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the craziest thing that I've read about space, because now everyone sends me the space stuff. They're like, oh, this guy's weird. Like, here, they read this thing. And they always DM it to me from an anonymous accountant.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  By the way, this is the best brand you can have. The best brand you can have is like, you, oh, you like crazy stuff.

• 1:33:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm all in on crazy. Just ask my girlfriend. But the, the part that

• 1:33:24Anthony Pompliano?

  is, is just blew my mind was there's two galaxies right now that are colliding. And they can see this or something. And I actually don't remember what happens when two galaxies collide. And they go, and by the way, our galaxy is going to collide with those two-

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  Other galaxies.

• 1:33:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, those two other galaxies in four billion years. And I'm like, wait a minute, hold on. Like- The idea of two planets colliding would be pretty scary like we're just like, yo Mars, what's up? Bam, just like bumper cars, right? What happens when galaxies collide?

• 1:33:55Speaker 02

  Uh, good title to an album.

• 1:33:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Bono, Bono.

• 1:34:01Speaker 02

  When galaxies collide, shotgun for that band name. I, well, I think, uh, things would be different.

• 1:34:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:10Speaker 02

  Would be my answer.

• 1:34:11Anthony Pompliano?

  So like, that's the stuff for when space, it's just like, come on, if there's other galaxies colliding out there and all that stuff, there's gotta be aliens. Like we're like, we, we.

• 1:34:18Speaker 02

  So, no, I believe that there are aliens.

• 1:34:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, alright.

• 1:34:21Speaker 02

  I actually go back and forth on parallel universes too, but like, I, I, uh, I don't know. I don't need to confess like how incredibly weird I am on this podcast, I don't think.

• 1:34:31Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm just gonna change the name of the podcast to weirdos.

• 1:34:35Speaker 02

  I appreciate enthusiasts.

• 1:34:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, okay, enthusiasts, yeah. Rest of the world weirdos. What, uh, what one question do you have for me?

• 1:34:46Speaker 02

  Okay. What is the biggest adventure you have ever been on?

• 1:34:51Anthony Pompliano?

  The biggest adventure?

• 1:34:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, in 2015, on 12 hours notice, I booked a flight to, uh, Medellin, Colombia by myself. I went, uh, landed, didn't know where I was staying, got an Airbnb, said to the host like, hey man, what's there to do around here? I read that this is one of the like, top 25 up and coming destinations. Uh, and it's like, there was an arbitrage between everyone thought it was super unsafe because of all like the narco stuff, all stuff. But it actually was like one of the safest places now because they've really cleaned it up. And he was like, oh, there's a bunch of things to do, blah, blah, whatever. And one of those things was, uh, to go see, um, what is his name? Uh, not El Chapo, um, the, uh, uh, the narco's guy.

• 1:35:38Speaker 02

  Narco's guy?

• 1:35:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, uh, what is, what is the dude's name?

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  I'm blanking on his name.

• 1:35:43Anthony Pompliano?

  It's called Hacienda, Napoleon is, uh, is the, uh, Name of the place and

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  Pablo Escobar.

• 1:35:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Pablo Escobar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. The internet.

• 1:35:50Speaker 02

  I I I was I knew that we were gonna get it.

• 1:35:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Pablo Escobar. So you can go to Pablo Escobar's compound. It's like an hour and a half, two hours out. You take this bus and you kind of walk up there. And it was wild because like you're literally in the backwoods of Columbia, walking around Pablo Escobar's uh thing and there is a federal prison that they have built and literally the people are in cage, like fenced cages and you can see them. And I just remember being like, standing there in a moment and just being like, whoa, where, what did I do? Like, how did I get here?

• 1:36:23Speaker 02

  Those are the best. Wandering, the wandering.

• 1:36:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And and I just remember like it was just every day for like a week. I just woke up like, what do I want to do today? Bam, just went and did it. And uh and it was a lot of fun. And so since then, uh that led to um I've done a bunch of these now. Like I went to Israel.

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  So it sparked you to do this more.

• 1:36:42Anthony Pompliano?

  My brother and I went to uh India for two weeks and uh just do things like, hey, man, you like, let's stop taking Ubers. Like, you want to just ride motorcycles? He's like, I never driven one before.

• 1:36:54Anthony Pompliano?

  And so we rented motorcycles in this busy Indian uh village or city.

• 1:36:58Speaker 02

  Gosh, and Indian traffic is just.

• 1:37:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Unbelievable. First time I ever drove a motorcycle. So stuff like that is just like, look, i- i- it's just like you're in charge of your own life. Like, you're gonna get the shit done or you're not. And like, you're gonna have some fun along the way. So uh, whatever. Are you ready? I'm gonna leave you with a quote. Pat Mc- Pat McNamara went on uh Joe Rogan's podcast recently.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:18Anthony Pompliano?

  And I heard this quote. It's just seared in my brain.

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:37:20Anthony Pompliano?

  He hit him with, every night is Saturday night, every morning is Monday morning.

• 1:37:28Anthony Pompliano?

  I was like, man, what a legendary life motto to live by.

• 1:37:33Speaker 02

  Well, is it Anthony Bourdain, my my body is a a carnival or something like that? Like, is it like, just live life to the fullest?

• 1:37:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, just do whatever you want. All right, man. This is a, this is a absolute pleasure. I had a fun, had a fun time. I can't even talk anymore. We've talked so much.

• 1:37:48Speaker 02

  We talked a lot. I did not realize.

• 1:37:50Anthony Pompliano?

  We went over an hour and 37 minutes.

• 1:37:52Speaker 02

  Were we supposed to go less?

• 1:37:54Anthony Pompliano?

  No, we're supposed to just go until you get tired of talking. Ethereum Summit returns to New York City this May 10th and 11th to kick off Blockchain Week and offer you a chance to go deep into the heart of crypto, blockchain, and Ethereum. Get up close and personal with outspoken crypto leaders like Mike Novogratz, Joe Lubin, Tushar Jain, Danny Ryan, and yours truly. Ethereum Summit is where you can get into the mix with the builders of blockchain and Ethereum. It's less shiller, all killer. That's a trademark. Less shiller, all killer. And it's way more than just a blockchain conference. Check out etherealsummit.com with my discount code POMP to get 20% off tickets to come hang with me and hundreds of the brightest minds in blockchain at Ethereum Summit New York.

• 1:38:35Anthony Pompliano?

  May 10th and 11th at Pioneer Works in Brooklyn. Less shiller, all killer. etherealsummit.com. Hey, everyone. POMP here. If you liked this episode of Off the Chain and want to help us take crypto to the top of the Apple, Spotify, and other podcast charts, please do us a favor and rate, review, and subscribe. To review, simply go to the Off the Chain homepage, scroll down until you see the five blank stars. Taking 15 seconds to fill those stars in and leave a quick review goes a long way in helping us take the entire crypto ecosystem to the top of the charts. I appreciate you listening and see you next time on Off the Chain.