#308 - Underwater Area 51: Best Evidence Aliens Live Deep Under Our Oceans | Richard Dolan

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Richard Dolan is among the world's leading UFO researchers, historians, and publishers. He has written four groundbreaking books which include two volumes of history, UFOs and the National Security State, an analysis of the future, A. D. His most recent book explores the fascinating and often unexplained phenomenon of USOs—Unidentified Submerged Objects. SPONSORS http://evening.ver.so/danny - Use code DANNY for 15% off your first order. https://hims.com/danny - Start your FREE online visit today. https://shopmando.com - Use code DANNY for $5 off your starter pack. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off EPISODE LINKS A History of USOs: https://a.co/d/aucoTkB https://richarddolanmembers.com https://YouTube.com/@RichardMDolan FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - The "Nazi UFO" Researcher 08:36 - What happened at Roswell? 16:10 - The worldwide UFO coverup 17:14 - Astronaut Edgar Mitchell 20:23 - What happened to Paul Bennewitz 33:10 - Newest UFO congressional hearing 43:31 - Recent alien & UFO news 49:05 - Why UFOs must be non-human intelligence 59:32 - What will future humans look like? 01:14:26 - Unidentified submerged objects (USOs) 01:26:46 - Spots in the oceans where UFOs are hiding 01:36:11 - 18th century UFO sightings 01:47:05 - UFOs, USOs & nukes 01:52:09 - The start of breakaway civilizations 02:03:06 - The impact of alien disclosure 02:05:43 - 9/11 theories 02:14:38 - Identifying credibility in the UAP space 02:24:08 - Jake Barber's UFO confession 02:29:09 - The Eric Davis documents 02:32:10 - AUTEC: underwater Area 51 02:35:26 - The UNDERWATER NRO 02:39:44 - Black budget underground bases 02:48:16 - Chris Bledsoe 02:56:42 - Psyops & disinformation 03:04:20 - JFK assassination Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Film for IMAX.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Make them remember you.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13. Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you. You're having a midlife crisis. I'm not ready for that.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  He's back.

• 0:27Speaker 02

  I'm older. I'm wiser.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  And sharper than ever.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  Things are gonna get messy, but if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  Dexter Resurrection, new season now streaming on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.

• 0:52Danny Jones?

  We just had this lady on the other day who was friends with this dude that I just learned about named Joe, I'm sure you've heard of him, Joseph Farrell.

• 0:59Speaker 04

  Oh yeah, I know Joe very well.

• 1:00Danny Jones?

  You know him personally?

• 1:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're friends.

• 1:02Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03Danny Jones?

  Oh my God, I just learned about this guy.

• 1:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06Danny Jones?

  And I was just blown away by some of this stuff.

• 1:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09Danny Jones?

  What do you make of that research? I mean, there's the title of that book. What was it? Swastikas and Flying Saucers?

• 1:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, Joseph has, I don't know where he is now, because he wrote his first, like, basically, he became known as the Nazi UFO guy.

• 1:24Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:25Speaker 04

  Like, that was really, his original training

• 1:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:29Speaker 04

  was in, what's it called, patristics. So studying Eastern Orthodox religiosity, like Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

• 1:38Danny Jones?

  He's like a bishop in the Catholic Church of Russia or something.

• 1:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, well, I think Orthodox.

• 1:44Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:44Speaker 04

  Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, some version of that. And, but he, he's a really highly intelligent man, of course, and he got into studying the Nazi UFO connection and looking at the foo fighters and particularly in Europe as potentially Nazi Third Reich technology. And so he went into that in several books. However...

• 2:07Speaker 04

  You know, the real, the thing with Joseph, I mean, you would have to ask him directly about this, what he thinks today, but I know that he became very, very open to an extraterrestrial interpretation of the UFO phenomenon over time. Cause like in the early years, I think it was easy to interpret all of his work as saying, "All of this phenomenon is a secret tech, earthbound secret tech." And I don't think that he's in that place, at least the last few times that we've talked. I didn't really think that he was. So I don't know. You know, we're always evolving. We're always like

• 2:38Danny Jones?

  We are.

• 2:38Speaker 04

  constantly thinking through, like, what do I, what do I think this year as opposed to last year? And it's important because, speaking for myself, I've, I've gone to a lot of different places as to like what I think is actually happening when we talk about UFOs and how you're APing.

• 2:54Danny Jones?

  I always love talking, are we rolling, Steve?

• 2:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm wondering.

• 2:57Danny Jones?

  Steve, are we good? We are rolling. Oh, beautiful. So I always love the opportunity, when the opportunity arises to talk to somebody like yourself. Cause I've only talked to maybe three, roughly three, maybe four people on this show that have been studying this topic for over 25, 30 years, like yourself.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:16Danny Jones?

  Most people have been in this stuff just, you know, for a few years recently, since like the emergence of YouTube. But I think it was like, the first one was James Fox, then Jason Giorgioni, Stephen Greer, these types of folks. And you, I've noticed that you've been in a lot of some of like the biggest documentaries on this topic. So it's always just so interesting to hear people's takes on this stuff when they've been studying, studying for so long. But for people that don't know who you are, can you just give like a brief summary of how you got into this stuff in the first place and what you've been doing ever since?

• 3:50Speaker 04

  Gladly.

• 3:51Danny Jones?

  Steve, my audio sounds really odd. Maybe it's just my, my headphones. Okay. All right. Yeah.

• 3:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. So I got involved in this subject a little over 30 years ago. So it was in the like 1993, 94. At that time, I was trying to pursue a completely different life. I was working on a PhD in history, Cold War studies at the University of Rochester in upstate New York. And I was very much into that. I had, previous to that, I'd studied a lot of European history, a lot of diplomatic history. So that was really my background. And I was in a bookstore in upstate New York, in Syracuse, actually. And I think it was 1994, and I saw on a display stand a copy of a book by Timothy Good called Above Top Secret, which is kind of a classic in the UFO field.

• 4:41Speaker 04

  And it was the subtitle of that book that really caught my attention, "The Worldwide UFO Cover-Up." And I was like, "Oh, wow." So I guess 1994, and I didn't know anything about UFOs. Like, essentially, literally, nothing. And I'd only heard, I'd seen, you know, some old documentaries. I'd watched Leonard Nimoy on In Search of and seen some of those things, but I really didn't know anything. And I'd only heard claims of cover-up and this and that. So I remember flipping through Tim's book, and I thought, "Wow, he's got some, like, interesting documents." He had names of people that I was studying in my own research. And I thought, "Oh, wow, UFOs, departments that I was looking into, and UFO connections

• 5:26Speaker 04

  there." And I thought, you know, this is like a completely, like, unofficial version of history here. Is this true, or is this nonsense, right? And that was really my question. So I bought the book, and I liked the book. It's a great book. And at the same time, I got on to what was then the baby version of the internet, all of the Usenet groups, people yelling and screaming at each other. But there were some good threads there, and there were a couple of people that I really learned from. And I just went down this rabbit hole. And I thought, "I'm going to spend two or three months of my life, and I want to find out, is there something to this, or is there not something to this? Is this a waste of time, like all of the other people in the academic community were assuming at that time? Or is there something here?" Because here I was, I was studying, basically, the presidency of Harry Truman.

• 6:10Speaker 04

  I'm looking at the early Cold War, 1950. And I'm thinking, there were claims that there was a very big UFO cover-up going on by then, and these were not trivial claims. And I just thought, what I don't like is having a big question mark hanging over my head on an area where I was trying to become an expert. And I just wanted to know. I just wanted to know. And so I thought I'd spend a couple of months to look into it. And I got hooked. I got totally hooked. Like, I discovered there were some very powerful declassified US government documents that were obtained through Freedom of Information, which itself didn't really get going until the late 1970s. When Jimmy Carter kind of strengthened FOIA at that time.

• 6:55Speaker 04

  And so at that time, a lot of very interesting US government military documents were released that they wouldn't prove that UFOs are aliens, but they did prove, absolutely proved, that these flying saucers that the government was telling the world, "Nothing to this. It's all hoaxes, misidentification." They proved that, no, actually, military personnel were seeing objects described as flying saucer-shaped, invading sensitive airspace that they were not supposed to be doing, engaging in maneuvers that were supposed to be impossible, being chased by our aircraft, and essentially playing cat and mouse games over and over again. Right. For years and years.

• 7:39Speaker 04

  And you know, you read, and then you read statements by the Director of Scientific Intelligence of the CIA in 1952, a man named H. Marshall Chanwell, who's telling his boss, Walter Beadle Smith, Director of the CIA, that this phenomenon is being seen at such altitudes and over sensitive military installations in such a manner that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles. That's a direct quote. And you read that, and you're like, how else can he put it, other than saying, "Boss, I think we're being invaded." So I read enough of these documents early on to think, there's absolutely something that is at least worth investigating.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  And then that opens up like a thousand other questions, like, where are the other academicians? Where's the university crowd looking into this? You would think, if you want to debunk this, fine, debunk it. Let's look at the actual evidence here and deal with it. But they would never deal with it. They would never deal with the fact that, like, why was the first Director of the CIA, a man named Roscoe Helen Cotter, a member of a UFO organization called NICAP in the 1950s?

• 8:49Speaker 04

  Until he clearly, under pressure, resigned in 1962, just before NCAP was trying to get congressional hearings back then.

• 8:57Danny Jones?

  So the CIA was created the same year Roswell happened, right?

• 9:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, 1947.

• 9:02Danny Jones?

  1947, right.

• 9:03Speaker 04

  Although you could see the predecessor organizations, the OSS during World War, and then something called the CIG, which was in 1946, going into 47. And then out of that, you get the Central Intelligence Agency. That's all with the national security reorg that happened in 1947.

• 9:19Danny Jones?

  So what do you think was going on? What do you think happened at Roswell?

• 9:25Speaker 04

  What I think happened at Roswell was, I think there was the recovery of, of something that was highly exotic that we probably did not make.

• 9:33Danny Jones?

  You don't think it was, you don't think it was any human manufacturing or any human technology? Cause I had, so, so, um, Jason, I think you know who Jason Giorgiani is, right? I had him on recently. He was explaining to me how General Corso, I think it was, had some sort of report of the Roswell crash. And he mentioned stuff like Velcro, Kevlar, night vision, all these human technologies being recovered at that crash site.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. So of course, he wasn't a general, but he was an officer in the US Army. And in the late 50s, early 60s, worked under a very important general named Arthur Trudeau, where he, instead in his book, The Day After Roswell, was published in 1997, he stated, yes, my assignment at that time was to, um, we had, we had our own little cache of alien tech, essentially. And Corso said his job was to kind of segue that out to private industry as quietly as he could. And he did say things like Kevlar and things like high tensile fibers and things like, I think fiber optics perhaps.

• 10:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I remember night vision and Velcro.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  Night vision, Velcro, I forgot. Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 04

  So, well, that's, that doesn't, that doesn't debunk the Roswell. I think Corso is very much stating that Roswell did happen as something extraordinary.

• 10:58Danny Jones?

  But like, so the, the implications of that would mean that either A, aliens use Velcro and Kevlar and night vision, or B, that it was just some man-made thing?

• 11:09Speaker 04

  Well, no, there's a third possibility, which is that, you know, when you're, we're being all theoretical, because like, I wasn't there, you weren't there. But if you are imagining that you've got a team of brilliant human scientists studying this like magical alien tech that they can't figure out, they still might be able to generate some pretty interesting ideas as a result of that, which might be variations, you know, of some of the alien tech. I don't think that's impossible at all. So Velcro, yeah, I don't really know. If aliens use Velcro, be kind of a handy thing for your sneakers or whatever footwear they got. But other, I mean, it seems to me that if you've got something as exotic

• 11:50Speaker 04

  as technology that theoretically could be thousands of years ahead of us or more, that A, you could struggle in figuring out a lot of these things. Material science, I think notoriously is said to be one of the most important areas that human scientists are trying to replicate, and maybe we're making it.

• 12:10Danny Jones?

  Material science?

• 12:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, you know, just the other day, Hal Podoff is on Rogan, and he's talking, yeah, yeah. And Hal has talked about the so-called meta-material. So what is the meta-material? It's this artifact that was sent out to Art Bell back in the day in the 90s, and then Art entrusted to Linda Moulton Howe. And then Linda, over a number of years, kind of passed it out to different scientists, including Hal Podoff and Eric Davis. They looked at this. And so what they found was that it was layered with, I mean, ultra, ultra tiny layers of bismuth and magnesium, and I think titanium, in ways that we still do not necessarily know how to manufacture. And so that would be the material science and...

• 12:55Speaker 04

  That would be an important thing, like you'd need to master if you want to do what flying saucers do. You need to have the materials that are sufficient to be able to withstand whatever you need them to do. Or in the case of what Hal speculated to, what was his phrasing? He said to serve as a wave guide for high-frequency electromagnetic waves in the terahertz range. When I heard him say that the first time, I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? But really, what it seemed like is a kind of anti-gravity, anti-gravitic type of a thing. So you'd have light or electromagnetic radiation hitting this thing, and somehow

• 13:35Speaker 04

  and some way that I cannot understand, it would produce a kind of effect on gravity.

• 13:42Danny Jones?

  Wow, interesting.

• 13:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, so in other words, this is really interesting to me because, you know, normally for years and years, you're thinking, how do they do anti-gravity? Pardon me, some kind of propulsion system, some kind of engine. But no, if it's in the skin of the craft itself, that's a really kind of nifty solution. And maybe that's part of what they do.

• 14:04Danny Jones?

  Wow. Yeah, the only, my introduction to this whole anti-gravity theory was the Bob Lazar story, and how he talked about that little basketball-sized reactor being inside the craft or whatever, and it somehow like repelled things away. And he explained it, it was a great explanation that made sense to my brain, how basically you like, you're falling through space by creating this crazy like heart-shaped propulsion pocket, right?

• 14:30Speaker 04

  Oh, this is above my pay grade in terms of understanding it too. But there's a couple of different theories that people have had as to how these craft do what they do.

• 14:38Danny Jones?

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• 16:23Speaker 04

  I'll just finish answering your first question, which I didn't properly do. Like, how did I, where did I go and how did I get into this? So I started, I'm looking at all of these early documents. That's really what got me in. So I was always a document kind of a person. I wanted to know what was the, as far as we can understand, the classified attitude that was taken during the 1940s and 50s, especially. That's where I started. And I will just say, and we can go as far as we decide here, but that the conclusion was very clear that the US national security community knew, some elements knew, this was real, this was not made by the Russians, this is not made by us, someone else is operating

• 17:08Speaker 04

  this, we did not have control over it, and absolute secrecy had to be maintained over this at all costs. Like, that was a conclusion I came to pretty early on in looking at these documents. And... And then just reading book after book after book as I was able to scrounge them up at the time. This is back in the 1990s. And, um, and I published my first book on this in 2000. I self-published it. And then, and then, yeah, in, in 2000, that was still kind of a tough thing to do. Uh, but then I, I got picked up by a, a different publisher and, um, and then that was, that was the start of my entry into this field back in the early 2000s. And I have never left. It's, it's kept me, um, in its grip ever since.

• 17:49Danny Jones?

  So your theory was that the, your conclusion was that the national security state knows about something that is not from this earth?

• 17:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:56Danny Jones?

  And has that conclusion evolved at all over the years?

• 17:59Speaker 04

  Yes, it's, it's developed and it's deepened, I guess I could say. I've never, I've never since then formed the conclusion that it's fake or that it's not a concern. I've never gone there. But there's different variations of how it works. Like, I remember when I first published that book, uh, I got an email from astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who, uh, was Apollo 14.

• 18:24Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:25Speaker 04

  And, uh, we, it was lucky for me, he was the first, uh, kind of famous person to endorse my work. It was like, great.

• 18:32Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 18:33Speaker 04

  Moonwalking astronaut. And, but he said to me, "Look, your, your theory about the cover-up is not exactly right." It's like, he said, he believed that my theory was that it's like the government and like the president's in on it and everyone's in on the secrecy. And I don't really know if I truly believed that, but maybe more back then. And he said, this is like, I don't know, 2001, 2002, early, he said, "I don't think it works like that. It's, it's very privatized. You know, there's a lot of, a lot of fingers in this pie and it's not all, uh, federal government."

• 19:11Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 19:12Speaker 04

  And, um, and so over the years, like, a number of people in that crowd, including Hal Putoff and including a number of other folks, would drop me little, little drops along the way, little breadcrumbs. Um...

• 19:26Speaker 04

  And indicating like we've got a privatized system like more and more you look at it. It's there's government, there's classified elements to this, but there is also an element that is beyond government.

• 19:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  And it's kind of nebulous, like who are these guys? Is it all, is it all think tanks and corporations or is it something else? And I don't know the full answer to that to this day, but, but that's a big part of this. So you're dealing with a kind of a labyrinth of secrecy and to the extent that it's privatized makes it much more of a challenge for people to use like freedom of information, for example.

• 20:11Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Well, that's by design, right?

• 20:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I think so. So that, all of that was an evolution through my years of looking into this.

• 20:19Danny Jones?

  I have to say, one of the biggest turning points for me in this whole topic was that documentary that you were a part of about Paul Bennewitz.

• 20:30Speaker 04

  The Magic Man?

• 20:32Danny Jones?

  Magic Man, yeah.

• 20:33Speaker 04

  Oh, wow. That was Mark Pilkington, I believe. I did that one, that's back in 2005, 2006.

• 20:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 04

  That's early.

• 20:40Danny Jones?

  That blew my mind. That totally, that totally blew my mind. Such a, first of all, such a well-done movie and two, it really like was eye-opening to see to like the extent that the, the intelligence people and the people in the Air Force NSA would all work together to basically scramble the mind of one individual just to alter public perception of something.

• 21:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's an interesting one because to this day, the interpretation of what happened with Paul Bennewitz is it's a, that is still an open question in my opinion.

• 21:14Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 21:15Speaker 04

  Well, to the extent that what, why, why was Air Force Office of Special Investigations or CIA possibly, or any of these other groups going after Paul Bennewitz to screw with his head? They were, like, a great book on this was done by Greg Bishop. Called a Project Beta.

• 21:32Danny Jones?

  Project Beta?

• 21:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a very fine book. I don't fully agree with every conclusion that Greg has, but he did a really excellent job and he needs, he deserves kudos for that. But the basic question is what, so Paul, for, people don't know this, Paul Bennewitz was a kind of a small US defense contractor in the 1970s. He lived right near Kirtland Air Force Base in New Mexico and he's able to see, and by, he's by the Manzano Weapon Storage Area there, I think, trying to remember this now. Anyway, so he's watching things going on over there, like bizarre aerial activity.

• 22:10Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 22:11Speaker 04

  And he's got, he's got sophisticated tracking information, equipment, and things like this to look at it, and he's convinced that there are flying saucers or something like that happening. And he's a good patriotic American. He literally wrote to President Reagan after 1981 about this.

• 22:27Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 22:27Speaker 04

  Like saying, "You've got to get on top of it," like, and so he was becoming

• 22:33Speaker 04

  a hassle and a potential security risk for the people over at Kirtland, whatever they were doing. So Greg argued, and I cannot remember what the Magic Man documentary actually argued here.

• 22:44Danny Jones?

  I think the claim was that essentially like 30,000-foot view is that he was a conduit of disinformation to the UFO community to poison the well of the UFO community because they knew there were Soviet spies there.

• 22:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, that, well, that's potential.

• 22:57Danny Jones?

  Okay. That's what I took from it.

• 23:00Speaker 04

  There's definitely espionage and there's definitely the attempt to muddy the waters of the UFO community. But the question is, what was Paul Bennewitz actually observing? So was he observing advanced US defense systems that were then being tested, or was he seeing something more than that? And I tend to think that maybe a little bit of both. I don't think it was all just, that they were only protecting their own tech. I guess that's my own position. I think, I think Bennewitz was seeing things that were not, not all ours. And I only say that because when, first of all, there were a number of other people who are associated with this who firmly believed he was seeing more than that. But also, when you look at the, the history of...

• 23:45Speaker 04

  Violations of sensitive airspace of US bases across the entire US. This is an old story, so it's not a unique thing, the Kirtland. It's something that, and through the 1940s and 50s and 60s and 70s and 80s, that was all still happening. It never stopped. And so I think it's very premature to just dismiss it all as saying he was only looking at our own secret tech. I actually don't believe that. But the fact that they went in and screwed with him.

• 24:13Danny Jones?

  And convinced him that it was aliens.

• 24:16Speaker 04

  And allowed him to convince himself. That's what Richard Doty would say. And Richard Doty was very much involved in all of that.

• 24:25Danny Jones?

  Wasn't there a part of that documentary where they claimed the NSA moved in across the street and was beaming information into his house, saying that the aliens were trying to communicate, or they were aliens trying to communicate with him? They were coming to Earth because their planet ran out of water. They're going to be here in 15 years or something along those lines.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  Is that Magic Man? I actually can't remember that.

• 24:41Danny Jones?

  That's, that's what I remember from the Magic Man documentary.

• 24:43Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 24:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 04

  You know. Maybe.

• 24:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And then there was the whole part about the cattle mutilation, which was wild. You know, how they were doing the underground testing for, they were mining.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  Is this a Myrna Hanson case? Is that, there's a, all of this was going on at this time. So there were cattle mutilations happening all in the mid and late 70s, out in the Midwest and out in the Rockies. And, and Bennewitz, Bennewitz got like really, really, really deep into this. That is for sure. And he hooked up with University of Wyoming, Leo Sprinkle, who used to do hypnotic regressions of people. And there was a woman, her name was Myrna Hanson. And she was, God, I can't remember. Did she, she witnessed the cattle mutilation, I think, or cattle being lifted up. But she was also supposedly taken to an underground facility herself.

• 25:40Speaker 04

  And Leo Sprinkle did the regression and Bennewitz, I think, was there. They all got really deep into this. And Bennewitz eventually was committed for, at least briefly, for psychiatric evaluation, like in the late 80s. This really got to him. It really messed him up and it seriously damaged his life. It's very sad. And, and it does seem like he was being used.

• 26:07Speaker 04

  For disinformation, yes, I think that's absolutely true. And, and I wrote about this in one of my books, my second volume of history, called UFOs and the National Security State. And my, my feeling was, you look at the, the mid and late seventies, and two important things were happening to threaten the secrecy of the UFO subject at that time. One was, as we mentioned, the release of documents through Freedom of Information. This was a new thing. This had never happened before. You know, in, in the fifties and sixties, the US Air Force could say, "We don't know anything about these UFOs. I mean, it's a little bit, it's obviously people are making mistaken assumptions and things like this, but we're not really into that.

• 26:50Speaker 04

  We have this Project Blue Book, and we're not really finding any evidence of aliens." And they could get away with that. Until, in the late seventies, researchers were petitioning the government for documents pertaining to UFOs, and holy cow, like, they got a lot of them proving that the Air Force was lying. They were lying through their teeth for years. And, so that was one thing. So, the Freedom of Information Act was a threat to the secrecy, and if you're, if you're on the other side of that, trying to guard the secrets, you have to be thinking, "What is our exposure here? What do we have to worry about? Is, if they shake the tree enough, is something gonna fall out of that tree that's really compromising?" Right. Like, what came out was compromising enough, but anything worse.

• 27:35Speaker 04

  So, that's one problem. The other problem was, this was when UFO crash retrievals were starting to become a thing in researchers. This is all in the late seventies, this all happened at once. Prong number one was FOIA, prong number two was crash retrievals, and, so we have, like, people like Stanton Friedman researching Roswell for the first time, things like this. But there were other crash retrievals that people were looking into and/or revisiting. There was a researcher no longer around, called Leonard Stringfield, who back in the seventies and eighties was actively cultivating ex-Air Force and ex-military people, getting all kinds of stories about crash retrievals. It was, it was kind of a first, like, no one was a magnet the way Stringfield was at

• 28:20Speaker 04

  that time. And so, he started to publish his research, bit by bit, you know, in these tiny little UFO journals that no one was reading, but they were coming out. And so, again, if you're managing the secrecy... And if there were crash retrievals, which it looks like there certainly were, you've got to be concerned, like, how long can this go before someone actually uncovers something that's truly compromising, that we do not want out? And so the theory, and I think this is probably true, is you muddy the waters and you, you put out information that would sow the seed of doubt into documents.

• 29:00Speaker 04

  And this is one argument about the MJ12 documents that came out in the mid 1980s. And it's possible that that's the case. And, and then the, the campaign against Paul Bennewitz that we were just talking about could be part of that as well. This is like kind of the empire strikes back. You know, you've got all of this, all of these threats to the empire of secrecy. And the late 70s, early 80s, they make the decision in the early 80s, like, let's, let's do something about that. And which is the case, like to this day, new documents may come out and you've already got people saying, is this real? Is this lies? Is this disinfo?

• 29:36Danny Jones?

  It's amazing to watch.

• 29:37Speaker 04

  It's very effective.

• 29:38Danny Jones?

  It's really effective. I mean, so if they were doing, if they were going to that extent with, with Richard Doty and Paul Bennewitz in the, it was the 80s that was happening?

• 29:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:49Danny Jones?

  If they were doing that in the 80s, imagine what they could, what they have the ability to do now with the internet. It's, it's.

• 29:55Speaker 04

  Highly sophisticated, obviously. And, and very likely they've got smarter people than we do, and they're probably many, many steps ahead. I, I think it's very tough to deal with them, not impossible, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's, we're going beyond UFOs here or UAP. This is in a whole array of things, I have no doubt. But the UFO subject, which is the one that I'm most interested in, I think definitely, you know, we're in an era now since 2017, New York Times and Politico, they do their articles at that time. And it kind of breaks open the space a little bit where people can talk about this a bit more without necessarily their careers being destroyed through ridicule. So that's good, but to think then that.

• 30:39Speaker 04

  Uh, the national security crowd is just gonna walk away from the table and say, "Oh yeah, here you go. Here's all of our secrets." "Yeah, sorry about that. We were wrong." No, that's not gonna happen. There's too many, far too many reasons

• 30:53Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 30:53Speaker 04

  to maintain this and to fight every step of the way. So what I believe is happening in terms of all of this, like this has been an argument for almost a decade now with a lot of people.

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• 32:29Danny Jones?

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• 32:32Speaker 04

  It's like, are we dealing with a covert op by the government to have a controlled and false release of UFO information to serve their needs? Or what I believe is we're looking at a factional struggle within that community where there are actually people who do believe in getting this information out to whatever extent they believe they want it out. I'm not sure if they even want it out fully themselves, but... To some extent, but there's still the the secrecy group, if we can call them that, that is absolutely not resolved to that at all, not not reconciled to that, and they will fight every step of the way.

• 33:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I think when me when I had Jesse Michaels in here, he was, I think he told me that as far as like all of the information that exists about this stuff on the Internet, he was saying only like 20% of it needs to be fake. He's like 80% of it can be real, and still no one will ever know what to believe. People will just fight about it.

• 33:29Speaker 04

  He's probably right. It's probably, I think it's even less than 20% that needs to be fake.

• 33:34Danny Jones?

  Wow, really?

• 33:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't, I don't, I mean, I think so, because there's always, look, you've got trolls out there, you've got hardcore skeptical people out there, of course.

• 33:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, it's crazy. People treat this like a religion.

• 33:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, they will hammer on any, any little thing that just seems a little off, and they'll just go after it. And you could have, I mean, we just had this congressional briefing just the other day as we're, as we're recording this, in the very beginning of May, you had.

• 34:02Danny Jones?

  Oh, I missed that.

• 34:03Speaker 04

  Well, it was very interesting. So you had Dr. Eric Davis, who was hardly ever.

• 34:06Danny Jones?

  Oh, I did see this, okay.

• 34:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Eric Davis, anytime he talks, you really want to listen to that man.

• 34:13Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 34:14Speaker 04

  But.

• 34:15Danny Jones?

  Why is that?

• 34:16Speaker 04

  He's worked very closely for many years with Hal Pudoff. He's worked with Robert Bigelow's National Institute for Discovery Science back in the 90s and early 2000s. He's the man who interviewed Admiral Thomas R. Wilson in 2002, which was a whole big thing, and that came out in 2019, that was a big mess, but it was all true. Davis meets with Wilson after Wilson had retired from the Defense Intelligence Agency, he had run the DIA. And this is connected, you interviewed Stephen Greer, so Stephen Greer was very much a part of this. So back in 1997, all right, Greer, Edgar Mitchell, the astronaut, and a few other individuals were going through Washington DC, and Greer.

• 35:02Speaker 04

  You know, look, he can be very polarizing, but he was, he was right on with this. And I will always say this, in 1997, Greer was like, there are black programs that are rogue, that deal with ET tech, reverse engineering, they are beyond the formal control of the US government. And so, they're trying to get audiences with different people to talk about this, and they get to meet with Admiral Thomas R. Wilson, who was head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff at that time. This is April 1997. And they give, gives a presentation, and Wilson, and I know this is absolutely true, said, "I'm gonna look into this." The head of the Joint Chiefs? Yeah, well, he's head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs. Okay.

• 35:45Speaker 04

  So, or he was deputy head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs. He then became head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs, which was head of the DIA. So, he was important. And he goes on a two-month wild goose chase, actually, within the Pentagon's bureaucratic structure. We can go into more detail if you want, but the short version is, he finds a number, not just one, several special access programs, that is ultra, ultra-secret programs, dealing with ET tech. He contacts the managers of one of them. And, and he's actually able to get a private in-person meeting with them. They are the, the program

• 36:28Speaker 04

  manager, the security manager, and the, the corporate attorney, right, for, for this. It was a private contract, and we don't know that it was lockkeyed, but that's what the betting money is. So he goes to meet with them, and he says, "It is your," we're getting back to Eric Davis, I promise you. Okay. Wilson says, "It is, it is your oversight that I am not overseeing this program. You need to bring me in. You don't have, you do not have proper oversight of this." And they're like, no, we're, we're fine. We don't need you. Well, that's, that's a real problem. What, and he finds out from them.

• 37:03Danny Jones?

  I remember Greer telling me this.

• 37:04Speaker 04

  Yes, right. And he finds out like this is, they have a, an intact saucer. According to what they said to him, uh, they've made painfully slow progress in understanding it. Uh, they had what's called the bigot list, B I G O T, and it's an acronym. Deriving from World War II. Anyway, that's the list of people who are allowed to be honest. And it's like 500 people. And Wilson's in, in, uh, is reading the list. He's recognizing very few names from the DOD. They're almost all in private industry. And he says, no, I need to be, this is, this is part of my purview. And they're like, no, it isn't. He says, well, I'll complain. They're like, be my guest. We're not afraid. We're not afraid of you. And he did go back to DC. He did complain and he was threatened with his career.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  He was threatened he'd lose a star or two along the way and take an early retirement. And he got furious, but he ended up playing ball. So anyway, he, because he was there with Edgar Mitchell and there was another Navy commander named, uh, Willard Miller, who was part of this, and Miller, these are Navy guys. So M- Miller, Mitchell and Wilson, they're all Navy. Uh, apparently, uh, Wilson and Miller chatted about this after. And Miller, I guess, learned that Wilson had failed in getting access to this program. And so somehow this got back to Edgar Mitchell, the astronaut.

• 38:31Speaker 04

  And Mitchell was in with the National Institute for Discovery Sciences. Robert Bigelow, that's all these other guys, right? Davis.

• 38:38Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 38:39Speaker 04

  Potoff.

• 38:40Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 38:40Speaker 04

  And many others. And so they all knew. They all knew that there was this failed attempt. By the head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs to get access to this program, and he was denied access. So it's kind of a big thing. Like, you know, you learn this fact and you're like, how do we get to Wilson? We want to talk to him. So Wilson retires in '02, and clearly Eric Davis, who was part of the NIDS group, he's the one. He goes out and he, he interviews Wilson. He got, he, he got the scoop. And he writes up roughly 15 pages of typewritten notes of his conversation with Wilson. I am mentioning this because someone in that group, and I cannot say who it was, unfortunately.

• 39:23Danny Jones?

  Oh, you know, but you cannot say about.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  I knew, I read that, I read portions of that document back in 2006.

• 39:29Danny Jones?

  Okay, so it's still secret.

• 39:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, 2006 and 7, 6, 7, 2007. And then, and I read the portion where Wilson is telling Davis, this technology was not made by Earth, not made by man, not by human hands. In, in the Davis notes, it's italicized. And I remembered reading it. It struck me like it's very profound, you know, this is not made by human hands. So they all knew that. So Davis gets these notes. And the only reason those notes leaked out at all in 2019 was because of, just a year and a half earlier, Edgar Mitchell had died. And his estate,

• 40:15Speaker 04

  well, it got, it got leaked out. So there was a friend of the family who was able to get some of Mitchell's documents. Those documents went to Australia, and from there they were JPEG'd. And by the early part of 2019, they were quietly circulating around, like the full notes that Davis had written. And then it leaked out. It leaked out enough in the spring of 2019 that I took it upon myself to do my own little YouTube video on it. And I think that's what blew it open in June of 2019. But that's Eric Davis. Like, so Eric Davis is.

• 40:51Danny Jones?

  And he's also part of this legacy remote viewing program too, right? He was a part of Pudoff, he was with Pudoff and Sarfati and all these SRI guys. Is that right?

• 40:59Speaker 04

  No, I don't think so. No, no. And I don't think Sarfati was part of the SRI thing.

• 41:03Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  That's Putoff and Russell Targ.

• 41:07Danny Jones?

  Oh, that's it. Okay.

• 41:07Speaker 04

  And I, I, I know and adore Russell as well. He's a, he's a wonderful man. But we can get into that, too. I, I'm not an expert in remote viewing, but my wife is a pretty damn good remote viewer.

• 41:20Danny Jones?

  What?

• 41:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm serious.

• 41:22Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 41:22Speaker 04

  Tracy has done some great remote views.

• 41:25Danny Jones?

  No.

• 41:26Speaker 04

  Seriously great remote views. Yeah. But no, I've been interested in that for a long time.

• 41:30Danny Jones?

  Oh, it's fascinating.

• 41:31Speaker 04

  It's absolutely amazing. Yeah. It's amazing. And it's, it's real. That is absolutely real.

• 41:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it was crazy.

• 41:37Speaker 04

  Unbelievably.

• 41:38Danny Jones?

  It was wild listening to Hal just talking about that on Rogan's podcast. And I've had a lot of people talk about that on this, on this show before, and it's, uh, the, the way he described it with Rogan was, uh, it was very, very cohesive. Like, it made a lot of sense the way he did it.

• 41:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, it's absolutely extraordinary. I'll just try to wrap up our thread.

• 41:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah. Where were we? Eric Davis and the recent congressional thing?

• 42:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, so like that was, um, oh, and the reason I brought that up at all.

• 42:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 42:05Speaker 04

  Davis was talking and he's like, when you hear Eric Davis, as I said before, like, you must listen to this man, in my opinion. He has a stellar reputation. And so on the, on this briefing, he's talking about like, yeah, there's different types of aliens that I've become aware of and, like, he's quite explicit.

• 42:26Danny Jones?

  Davis is saying that.

• 42:26Speaker 04

  Yes, absolutely. But what everyone jumped on was unfortunately, and this is not to, uh, to disparage Lou Elizondo, because I personally like Lou. And I respect him a lot. But he put up an image of a, what was supposed to be a UFO and.

• 42:41Danny Jones?

  Oh, Lou did?

• 42:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. It was very quickly, uh, you know.

• 42:46Danny Jones?

  Debunked?

• 42:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, pretty much. It's like, you know, irrigation circles that when you fly over, it looked like, it looked like a white UFO with a shadow below. Like, if, it could look like that. When I looked at it, I thought, oh, yeah, it looks like that.

• 42:58Danny Jones?

  I see these things on X, on Twitter all the time, and I just like, I, sometimes I just don't have time and I scroll right past it.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  No, exactly.

• 43:03Danny Jones?

  I saw, I saw what you're referring to, though.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, that got very quickly, and, and people were just hammering Lou on that. And, but like, the whole point is like, All right, people can make mistakes and maybe you could say like he shouldn't make the mistake, okay, fine, whatever, but I don't think that any of that was in bad faith at all. I absolutely believe he did that in good faith and it was just, it was a mistake and you shouldn't have made it, but okay. But this is what, excuse me, you're hearing people have, you know, focus on, I'm talking about the skeptics now, you got Davis with these amazing statements, you had Admiral Tim Gallaudet during the briefing with very impressive statements and Christopher Mellon, who's always on point, made very good things, had very good things to say and more, Mike Gold of NASA, but they, they focused on this

• 43:49Speaker 04

  mistaken photograph. The whole time? Well, the debunkers, I mean, that's what they'll do, you know, they'll Oh, the debunkers, I see what you're saying. They look for the one little thing, rather than, you look at the big picture of what these other individuals are saying. What did you take away from that whole thing? Well, we are, if you think about the news stories that have come out in the last week from our, from this moment that I'm here with you. Today is, what day is it? May 5th. Monday, May 5th, Cinco de Mayo, baby. Yeah, that's right. Just a little over a week ago, I think Jesse Michael put out his Harold Malmgren interview. Harold Malmgren, fascinating man. Who was he? This is a guy who has advised it of four US presidents, including Kennedy, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, four. What?

• 44:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, he was 89 years old and then died immediately after this interview with Jesse. When you get it, I mean, everyone's like Pull that up, Steve, I gotta see this. We're so busy, no one has time, but that is a hell of an interview. Oh my God. And Malmgren, he got very sick immediately after this and he died shortly after that, but you listen to this man, he was a brilliant economist, maybe genius level, I mean, absolutely top-notch intellect, and he was razor-sharp during this interview. So he was, he was great. Was he whacked? I doubt it. I mean, I don't, I don't think so, you know. But anyway, what he said, we'll see it being pulled up here. Yeah, I touched a UFO. Twelve days ago, wow.

• 45:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So anyway, we had that story. Then we had, um, trying to get these in order. Oh, Matthew Brown, who's the latest, we can say whistleblower, interviewed by Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, very interesting guy. And then, um, we had, um, we had, we had put off on Rogan. We had the congressional briefing and then just yesterday, there is a new, a new one. And I don't know how powerful this is or not, but, uh, Dr. Gregory, oh man, Gregory. This was put out in the Daily Mail, uh, by Josh, um, boom, no, Josh, uh, forgive me.

• 45:57Speaker 04

  He's a friend. I like him. It'll come. Uh, anyway, that came out in the Daily Mail. What was it about? Was the? He was, he was an Air Force major and he was a NASA doctor. He's looking for it. Dr. Gregory Rogers. Rogers? And it's by, I want to give Josh his props. He deserves it. Click on the link. Maybe, maybe it'll be in there. Scroll. Josh Boswell. Josh Boswell, okay. Yeah, yeah. He, he, he and Christopher Sharp, they're both very good younger journalists who do very good work on this. Anyway, so this man Gregory Rogers was a NASA doctor.

• 46:34Speaker 04

  Uh, worked on a number of shuttle missions and said in 1992, he's down by Cape, Cape Canaveral, I think. And he saw CCTV footage of a, he was shown this by another Air Force officer of a flying saucer that had USAF markings on it, US Air Force flying saucer. He said this thing did things that we, we do not have the ability to do. Tilt at an angle while hovering, uh, rotate this way, rotate that way. Uh, but he supposedly, and look, this has not been vetted. I mean, you know, but this is all just new stuff. He said. I was, I asked him, where do we get this? And he said, the guy just pointed up and indicating

• 47:16Speaker 04

  it was like from up there, from outer space. So it's, it's a new story. Is it true? Is it not true? I don't know. But think of this, in the last less than two weeks, those, all of those have come out. Like, that's profound. That's powerful stuff. Uh, more than a decade ago, you would have had to wait, like, there would have been years in between stories like that.

• 47:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's drinking from a fucking fire hose.

• 47:45Speaker 04

  Exactly. So, uh, so I don't remember why I got into all this, but yeah.

• 47:50Danny Jones?

  I asked you just like what your, uh, your, what your ultimate takeaway was from that recent congressional thing with Eric Davis and then all those guys.

• 47:57Speaker 04

  Well, we're looking at a kind of pile on effect, you know, with, uh, the momentum of all of this, these new revelations, new claims, maybe might be a better way to put it, but more and more new information is absolutely coming out at a rate that is unprecedented. We've never, in all of the history of UFO research, and that's, this is something I can speak very confidently about. There has never been anything like the time that we're in now. This is, this is unprecedented. And where it will lead is a really good question.

• 48:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah. So, so over the last couple of months, uh, I mean, like, my emotional, my emotions on this whole topic vary. It's like, I ride this roller coaster of emotions on the UFO topic from being, A, I get burnt out on it super easily. Uh, I get like this UFO fatigue. Um, and then I also go back and forth between like, is it really aliens? Is it time travelers? Is it DARPA? And like, you know, my recent thing has been like, this is just, this has to be all just military bullshit mixed with internet psychological psyops or just like, like, like you just alluded, feeding us this fire hose of misinformation

• 49:09Danny Jones?

  just to get everyone confused. So nobody can, no, like, it doesn't matter what the truth is because there's just, everything's out there and everyone's fighting about it. There's too much noise and no signal.

• 49:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm very sympathetic to that. And as far as the burnout goes, I totally, I've done this for 30 years. And, uh, my wife could tell you, like, when it's after dinnertime. I almost like, I have to think about other things. I can't, I can't do UFOs anymore. Like in the old days, I would go to like 2, 3 in the mornings, just like. And nowadays, like, I do it in the morning and the afternoons, and then I have to, I have to end it. I have to have other things going on in my life, so I, I can sympathize with that. But as far as like what's going on, the reason that I, I still, I very much believe that the significant portion of this phenomenon is from non-human intelligence. And the reason I believe that is, I look at the earliest history of this.

• 50:05Speaker 04

  Particularly the early, like, the post-World War II. But even, there are some very, I would say, good, not perfect, but good accounts from prior to World War II that are worth looking at as well. And so when you look at some of these early cases, and then particularly when you read the declassified documents that I mentioned earlier that are available, it's hard for me to square that with a secret US black budget project. It just doesn't. Because, because all the intelligence officers that we know of at the time in the 40s were looking into this, and there just is, there's nothing that I have seen that really make, even, you mentioned Joseph Farrell's work.

• 50:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 50:48Speaker 04

  Were we on camera when we talked about Joe?

• 50:50Danny Jones?

  Were we, Steve? I don't remember. Well, anyways, we were talking about Joseph Farrell before this thing started.

• 50:55Speaker 04

  And, um, and I'm a friend of Joe's, and I respect and admire his work a lot, but I don't even think that he has made a clear-cut case that it's definitely all like, you know, Third Reich tech and all of that. I mean...

• 51:10Danny Jones?

  There's definitely the Horton Brothers, which was...

• 51:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's the Horton Brothers, and, and I think now, I think we're seeing more and more support for the idea of a 1933 Italian recovery. Italian.

• 51:27Danny Jones?

  Uh huh. This is, I think, Grush talked about this, right?

• 51:29Speaker 04

  Grush talked about it, Malmgren, Malmgren in his interview with Jesse Michaels, and Eric Davis in his congressional briefing, talked about it. So we're seeing all these different perspectives coming in on this. The real man who researched this is an Italian researcher named Roberto Pinotti, who looked at a lot of the original documents that do exist in Italian from 1933. And um.

• 51:56Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 51:57Speaker 04

  So I think, yes, like, this goes back farther in time than a lot of the American researchers, like, because we're so American centered, like Roswell, it all starts there.

• 52:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 04

  Uh, no, no, I think there's, even in the US, there were prior cases to Roswell, but certainly this 1933 case.

• 52:14Danny Jones?

  So you, you think the, the fact that these cases or crash recoveries, retrievals, whatever you want to call them, they go back so far earlier than the, the 1940s? You think that points to it being of non-human origin just because of how advanced it was and how early it was?

• 52:30Speaker 04

  I, I think so. That's what I, that's what I believe in.

• 52:32Danny Jones?

  And where, where do you think they would have come from? I know, we're being super speculative here. I'm just saying, like, if you.

• 52:38Speaker 04

  I would say another planet.

• 52:39Danny Jones?

  Another planet, right?

• 52:41Speaker 04

  Or, or, uh, there's a couple of different ways to look at this. So, you know, Hal Putoff wrote a very interesting paper a number of years ago on ultra-terrestrials, this.

• 52:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 52:52Speaker 04

  Concept, and it's a, it's a very interesting paper. I highly recommend people read it. And, and I think his take, and he just mentioned this the other day in his interview, but maybe there's been a group that's been here a long time that originally comes from elsewhere. They've set up a shop in some manner, which I think is a total, totally possible. I would, I would imagine that the extraterrestrial hypothesis actually still makes more sense to me than anything else. I mean, we can get attracted to interdimensional theories, but does anyone actually even understand what another dimension would be? Like, how does that work? How do they materialize? You know, I don't, maybe it's, it's possible,

• 53:34Speaker 04

  but I don't really understand how that's possible. I can understand how it could be possible, even despite the vast distances, to go interstellar if you can manipulate spacetime in some way, bending spacetime. We have math for that. Gane, Miguel, Alcubierre in the 90s apparently came up with some version of warp drive mathematically. The problem is finding the amount of energy.

• 53:59Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 54:00Speaker 04

  Sufficient to do it, but.

• 54:01Danny Jones?

  Same thing with, I think that's the same thing with time travel, right?

• 54:04Speaker 04

  I think so, yeah, you know, so.

• 54:05Danny Jones?

  I love, I love Michael Masters' time travel theory.

• 54:08Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, I don't know if I've, I'm on top of that one, so maybe you can, you can educate me, but, uh.

• 54:15Speaker 04

  But I guess I'll just say, I think the fact that they come from another place still makes the most sense to me. The fact that we would be of interest makes a lot of sense to me. The fact that Earth would be a very interesting place also makes a lot of sense to me. I think all of that makes perfect sense. That if you have the ability, if you've achieved a technological capability to detect advanced life elsewhere, which I don't see that as impossible at all. I mean, we're already looking at exoplanetary systems and looking for life signatures. And we just started with this business. So if you've been doing this for a thousand years or more, maybe you can detect consciousness.

• 55:00Speaker 04

  You can go, we talked about remote viewing. Could they actually have the ability to detect advanced consciousness? I don't know, maybe they can. Or maybe there are other technologies that we just haven't envisioned. So they could find us and then could they get to us? Yeah, I don't see why not. At least in theory, I think it could be entirely possible. And we would be interesting. Because A, there could be a lot of life in this universe, but how common really would planets like ours be? We have, we're in the Goldilocks zone, but it takes a lot more than that.

• 55:36Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 55:37Speaker 04

  We have.

• 55:37Danny Jones?

  The moon is.

• 55:38Speaker 04

  We have the moon.

• 55:39Danny Jones?

  Incredible.

• 55:40Speaker 04

  Which is, it's, it's, what's the word?

• 55:44Danny Jones?

  It's the perfect terraforming device. It's one, I think it's one twentieth the size of the sun and one twentieth the distance from the sun. I think I'm getting that math right.

• 55:53Speaker 04

  Oh, it's a lot less than one twentieth the sun.

• 55:54Danny Jones?

  Maybe, maybe I'm getting that math wrong, Steve. Maybe you can correct me with the fractions there. Anyways, the fractions are exact, the exact size comparison to the sun and the exact distance from the sun is equal. So it creates that perfect eclipse. And so that makes.

• 56:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's actually, that's an amazing thing. If that's, if, if that's a significant part. The fact that it's a stabilizer of our environment is very significant. It's, it's always got one side turned to the earth. That's, I can't remember the word for that, but that could be significant. Tightly locked. Yeah, thank you.

• 56:25Danny Jones?

  Steve, what's the fractions of the distance, the distance ratio and the size ratio? Find that. And then it is, you know, it is the perfect terraforming device for us.

• 56:36Speaker 04

  And, uh, yeah, it's sun size and distance ratio. There you go. You can figure that out. Let us know, Steve. That's your homework assignment. But, but we have, we also have water and land. So we, but we're not completely covered in water either. So we have enough water for life to evolve in the water. But then we have enough land out of the water that life can crawl up and evolve on land. You know, I mean, that's kind of an interesting thing right there. And we've had enough stability over hundreds of millions of years that we can allow complex life to develop on land. I mean, yeah, that's, that can't be very common.

• 57:19Speaker 04

  Now, the universe is big enough that you could think, all right, maybe one out of a million systems might have something like this, or whatever it is. And that could still be enough to develop, um, advanced life. And which I think, I, I've come to believe, I'm not a, I'm not an expert in this at all, but I, I tend to think that life anywhere is going naturally to want to increase its complexity, uh, just because life competes with other life for resources and energy and food. And that intelligence is one necessary evolutionary adaptation that would be useful for any life form and not just humans. Dinosaurs were intelligent, hell. Not, not maybe compared to us, but compared to previous life forms, they probably were.

• 58:04Speaker 04

  Intelligence is always increasing. Yes. And, uh, you know, our body plan just allowed us to hit the sweet spot. We developed these hands that can do things and manipulate our environment and that further increased our intelligence, I believe. So I think, I think life naturally will do that, given the proper conditions. Right. And I'm going to guess that, you know, in enough parts of the universe, those conditions have existed so that you then develop life. And then it gets to the, the critical point where...

• 58:34Speaker 04

  It develops its own ability to kind of manage itself, which we're maybe kind of doing. And we're developing our, you know, strong AI and all the other technologies that'll go along with it. Nanotech and who the hell knows what, quantum computing. And what kind of crazy diabolical mixture will come out of all of that. And I think that that's probably what, what other life forms have done because I, I suspect that, that what life, what intelligent life will do is it is guided by the requirements of constantly developing that intelligence. In other words, it's not about, like, our society isn't about the human race anymore.

• 59:19Speaker 04

  It's really about meeting the needs of the demands of a highly integrated, digitally advanced, artificially intelligent system of which we are now just a part. Like, we think it's working for us, but I think we're serving the system. And we're serving the system that is becoming ever more complex. And, and that intelligence will just kind of take off on its own. Because I think it's the intelligence that's the dominant factor, not necessarily our biological contribution to it.

• 59:49Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 59:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's, I mean, I don't know if anyone actually ever thinks that, or if I'm the only person. But this is what I, I've come to believe, like, we serve, we serve the system that we have helped to create. But really, we're just, we are simply actors, or we're just.

• 1:00:08Danny Jones?

  We're the caterpillar.

• 1:00:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're like the servants of, of what high intelligence demands. And we, we're, that's what we're doing.

• 1:00:17Danny Jones?

  What do you think we look like, what do you think human beings or what comes out of human beings ends up being in like a 50 to 100 years?

• 1:00:26Speaker 04

  Well, it all depends on.

• 1:00:28Danny Jones?

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• 1:01:56Danny Jones?

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• 1:02:08Speaker 04

  You know, because all that we do is we adapt to the environments that we live in. And we are now radically changing our own environment technologically.

• 1:02:18Speaker 04

  In all different ways and so clearly you're seeing probably a speeding up of of human evolution is probably happening. Right. I think it is. Right. Experts would be better able to say this than me, but I think it's quite, I mean, look, even in the last Technology, right? Yeah, in the last 10,000 years, we're not the same as we were back then. So, and we've domesticated ourselves. It's just like you look at domesticated sheep as opposed to wild sheep. Well, domesticated humans as opposed to wild humans. Right. Before we started settling in a large communities and societies and roughly 10,000 years ago. So we're, we're going on a path. So what we're going to look like.

• 1:02:58Speaker 04

  The, you know, the problem with our future is that

• 1:03:04Speaker 04

  every, every new technological leap you make, whether it's mastering the use of fire or stone tools, or now working at, you know, getting to AGI and whatever else we're going to get to. Means that you become dependent on that for your species survival. Like honestly, like once we've had fire for like a couple of hundred thousand years. Right. It would be very difficult to probably for those people to survive without it. Yes. Because you become dependent on it. And then not only that, but the fact that you have fire means you have to develop all of these other technologies because we have to maintain the fire. We have to protect the fire. We have to find and process the right kinds of wood, like

• 1:03:48Speaker 04

  all of that, that, that prompts further intellectual development. Same with stone tools and all that. So once you develop that, you have to maintain it. And now we're so, so deeply embedded in our technology. Can you imagine? You know, Spain and Portugal just went without electricity for five hours last week. Five, I have a sister who lives in Seville and Trust me, I live in Florida. I go through a lot of hurricanes. Exactly. So, but they were like, they were freaking out, man. They were not, they were not happy. So imagine if we had to go without electric, forget internet, just electricity. Yeah, it sucks. It's even worse for a week, two weeks, a month, forever. It would suck. It would, it would more than suck because most people would probably not live.

• 1:04:34Danny Jones?

  You know, going back to this, you know, this technology conversation and the evolution of human beings is really, it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently. And it really came, it was interesting because I think Hal and Rogan touched on it a little bit on their conversation. But, you know, one of the ideas that I've been throwing around is the idea of like this, this ESP telekinesis, having these senses that are not apparent in everybody, but they're kind of like extra. Some people have, have them more than other people. And especially when it comes to things like remote viewing and

• 1:05:12Danny Jones?

  ESP. So like, ancient human beings, right? Before we had the development of language, before we had the technology to record memories externally, and, you know, when we constantly were trying to avoid predators to stay alive.

• 1:05:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Danny Jones?

  And before we had anything, like, I'm sure we had some sort of extra senses that have atrophied since we've developed

• 1:05:39Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:05:40Danny Jones?

  Language, since we've developed computers. We don't have to memorize shit anymore. Everything's on a computer or iPhone. You know what I mean?

• 1:05:46Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 1:05:46Danny Jones?

  So I feel like that is radically, we have senses that are radically have been

• 1:05:52Speaker 04

  Diminished.

• 1:05:53Danny Jones?

  Diminished and atrophied over millennia.

• 1:05:55Speaker 04

  My wife and I talk about this a lot. This is like our, one of our pet theories that we've been hashing around for a couple of years. Excuse me, I totally believe that that's the case. We actually are, the brain capacity of the human being today is less than it was among our ancestors, even more than 10,000 years ago. I think it's like the amount of a golf ball or, no, more than that. I think

• 1:06:17Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:06:17Speaker 04

  Maybe a baseball amount of, of a brain. We have less. We have, we have a little bit less. And that doesn't mean that we're less intelligent. It just means that domestication has

• 1:06:31Speaker 04

  enabled us to need less because the brain's expensive. I mean, in terms of energy. Like it's it's not free. And so you you have to have a reason for it. It's got to provide an evolutionary benefit for you to use it. And very likely, I think that you're right. I think that's true. Like, we've probably atrophied. And what that, of course, this is material that I'm just barely, I shouldn't even really talk about. But you hear people talking about microtubules in the brain and the ability to access quantum information in some way. And I'm probably saying this wrong in countless ways. But but essentially that we have the capacity to perceive some various forms of non locality, you know,

• 1:07:13Speaker 04

  things that are far away, that logically, you wouldn't think we're able to perceive. But hell, remote viewing proves that you can. And I think it's a fair theory or a fair notion that our ancestors did a better job at this than we do.

• 1:07:32Danny Jones?

  And another thing about, okay, so we were just talking about how like, there's other Goldilocks planets, and there might be, there definitely are, we know of, that are really, really far away. But like, we are so rare in this solar system. All the different species that exist on Earth, I think out of, so this is kind of getting into what Mike Masters explained to me. He's a anthropologist. And he was explaining to me, there's over 2 million species of animals.

• 1:07:59Speaker 04

  I didn't mean to interrupt you. Isn't he the one who, am I getting my people mixed up? He came up with a paper about a year or two ago, that got a lot of attention. And I should stop. I'm probably getting it wrong. Anyway, keep going, please.

• 1:08:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah. So he's an anthropologist, and he and his and he's wrote a bunch of books on on his, I think his, it's not his most recent one, but one of them is called the extraterrestrial model. And he basically explains, you know, having a background in in this stuff and evolution, is that there's 200 species of, there's 200 or 2 million catalogued species on planet Earth. Out of the 2 million, 20 of them are hominids. Out of the 20 hominids, we are the ones that developed technology that was able to escape the Earth. So we are like 0.0001% of all species, human beings on Earth. So that is extremely rare for Earth, which is an extremely rare planet, being such a, you know, having the moon the way it is, being this, having so much water and land, being inhabitable, teeming with life.

• 1:08:57Danny Jones?

  So now, let's go look at all the other Goldilocks planets that we know of that are so far away. How, how many of them have the same gravity, the same atmosphere, the same, how many of them are water worlds or not? And what is the likelihood that those beings that evolve on that planet, that Goldilocks planet are gonna be exactly like the point 00001%

• 1:09:21Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:09:22Danny Jones?

  That ended up being human beings on this planet? So he's like, basically the case he made was it's virtually

• 1:09:26Speaker 04

  Impossible.

• 1:09:27Danny Jones?

  Impossible for them to have two arms, two legs, upright, walking hominids.

• 1:09:30Speaker 04

  There I disagree.

• 1:09:31Danny Jones?

  I disagree with that. Okay.

• 1:09:34Speaker 04

  Respectfully, because I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. But, no, I think that our body plan is probably not unique to us. And I think if you're going to, again, I think because what life does, life evolves and life adapts. And so if the necessary thing that you have to have is an ecosystem that can support enough diversity of life for this to happen, and yes, you need water and you need land, you need both, and so it's going to be very rare. Like, I completely agree with all of that. I think that's entirely right. But the fact that our body plan is an anomaly, I don't agree with that.

• 1:10:14Speaker 04

  I think our body plan is probably, I don't really, you know, do we really truly understand what is the mechanism of evolution? What is it really? Is it truly just random mutation? Or is there something else going on? And I'm not gonna pretend that I have that answer. But I think that somehow, life, didn't Jeff Goldblum say this in Jurassic Park? Life finds a way. And I think that life does find a way through adaptation, through the need for survival.

• 1:10:49Speaker 04

  And luck, yeah. But like this is, if you're gonna engage in planetary domination of any capacity. Honestly, I think this plan, this body plan of ours, might just be the best way to do it. Because what you need is an ability to manipulate your environment. That's key. And so, hands and fingers are perfect for manipulating environment. What's better than that? I don't know of anything that's been better. And then the thing is, once our, you know, Australopithecine distant ancestors of four million years ago, or three million years ago, they realize, oh, I could break this stone. Wow, this is really useful. So that encourages further intellectual development.

• 1:11:32Speaker 04

  Just, just even napping stones is like, that's a skill. So you're working cognitively here. And so I think adaptations, I don't think it's impossible that life would form adaptations similar to our own, that you would have humanoid beings and other, that develop that way in other planets. You know, I, I just think that, I remember as a kid, reading like what certain scientists thought like life elsewhere would look like. And some of those ideas were kind of, kind of goofy when I look at them now. And I don't think they make a lot of sense because a body has to be efficient and it's got to, and so you're looking at all of these different factors that go into it.

• 1:12:15Speaker 04

  And it seems to me that bipedal, standing upright with a couple of extra hands to do your job, like that's really, that's quite useful. And I could imagine that happening elsewhere.

• 1:12:26Danny Jones?

  What do you got, Steve?

• 1:12:27Speaker 04

  Oh, the crab species convergence.

• 1:12:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's similar to what he was talking about. Like you, you have five different species that have independently grown crab-like bodies. That's just what works in the ocean for little creatures like that. Independently, unrelated.

• 1:12:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's convergent evolution.

• 1:12:42Danny Jones?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:12:44Speaker 04

  Which means basically species that have not related to each other can due to the environments that they live in develop very similar.

• 1:12:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:55Speaker 04

  Like, you know, bats can fly as well as insects can fly.

• 1:12:58Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:12:59Speaker 04

  And birds and that type of thing.

• 1:13:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. When I brought this up to Greer, he was, he was explaining to me, he believes it has something to do with morphic resonance. This theory by Rupert Sheldrake to win theirs. It's like some sort of a quantum idea. It's a, it's a quantum theory essentially. So I guess one of the examples that Sheldrake used was this, a monkey on one side of the world discovers some sort of technology, figures out how to crack a, crack some, a coconut open with a rock or whatever. And at the same time, this quantum, in this quantum field, the monkeys on the opposite side of the world figure out the same thing. So he thinks that might tie into evolution between planets. He said, this isn't just on Earth.

• 1:13:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. Hey, I entertain that. I mean.

• 1:13:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43Speaker 04

  You know, there's the secret life of plants, which came out over 50 years ago, which talks about, like, there's all different ways. We know that, we know that fungi under the ground are somehow, I don't understand it, can be a means of communication among plants.

• 1:14:00Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:14:00Speaker 04

  All right, so how does that work? I don't know. So there, something like that could, sure, why not?

• 1:14:07Danny Jones?

  Steve, what'd you find about the sun? Anything?

• 1:14:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:14:11Danny Jones?

  Come up with a goose egg on that?

• 1:14:12Speaker 05

  I got a ratio that I don't understand.

• 1:14:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, come on.

• 1:14:17Speaker 04

  Well, it's certainly less than 120.

• 1:14:20Speaker 05

  It's a one to 43,000 is the, is the moon's ratio to the, what the distance to the sun. And the earth is similar at one to 11,700. I don't know what that means.

• 1:14:35Danny Jones?

  Google, what's the distance? What is the distance of the earth to the sun?

• 1:14:48Danny Jones?

  Alright, we're not gonna waste time on this, fuck it, I give up. Um, so how, so, explain to me, what made you want to, um, start working on this project involving USOs specifically?

• 1:15:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, one of the most rewarding little rabbit holes I've ever gone down. So I have, um, I mean, I've had a longstanding interest, USO simply means unidentified submerged objects, water-based UFOs or water-based UAP, that's it. And, you know, I've, I'd heard of this type of phenomenon for many, many years. It's always been very interesting. I mean, to me, intrinsically, it's interesting to hear a story about an object that comes out of the ocean, making a big, uh, display like that. And I thought, I mean, how many, how many of these stories exist? I have a website with a lot of amazing members and they'll ask me questions.

• 1:15:45Speaker 04

  One person asked me a question about a particular case from 1945, near the Aleutian Islands, a little island called Adak Island out there. And there is a case from the summer of 1945 where a US transport ship, World War, the Pacific War was still happening, they were returning from Japan to Seattle, and they were by the Aleutians and apparently, an object appeared to have come out of the water, a disk-shaped object, circled around the ship twice and then takes off. So that was a case that was somewhat known to me, and is known to other researchers, and I just did like a little bit of extra research and I'll put together like a little video, things like that from my website. But I got really intrigued by it and I thought

• 1:16:30Speaker 04

  to myself, this is back, this is three years ago, so in 2022, I thought,

• 1:16:37Speaker 04

  What other good cases are there? Like, I just wanted to pull them together. And I started to realize there were a couple of books that had been done on this. There was a book back in 1970 by an American researcher named Ivan Sanderson, a very good book. There was another very good book by the recently deceased researcher named Carl Fein, who wrote a very good book on water and UFOs, but not much else. There was a couple of others here and there. And I thought, I want to collect them. How many can I find? Like, that was where I started. And are they good? And I just got more and more into it. I started doing more of these little mini presentations for my website. And it just became, by the summer of 2022, it was kind of a mania. And I thought, I'll

• 1:17:21Speaker 04

  see if I'll do a book, see what I come up with. And that turned out into what will be a three-volume project. The first volume I just published a couple of months ago. And that, and it will be followed by the other two, which will be out this year. I've collected about 700 cases. There's many more than that, I've no doubt. I eliminated quite a few in looking for them, because I really wanted cases that had some meat on the bone, so that you could kind of work with and give a good description of. So I've got about just under 700 from around the world. And some of them go back kind of far, not into the distant, distant ancient. The first really good case that I consider good is actually

• 1:18:06Speaker 04

  only from 1717, so like 300 years ago. It's a pretty good case, though. And then they become better over the years, a lot more detail. And I just started collecting them. I wanted to breathe, like, fresh life. 99% of them are completely forgotten, even by, like, experienced researchers. I think they're just completely, they've gone by the boards. And I thought, they deserve. They deserve.

• 1:18:33Speaker 04

  A fresh retelling of them, and I wanted to do that. And then it just morphed into more and more things. I ended up getting a really great illustrator, a man named Alan Levine, who's a wonderful man, and did beautiful illustrations for this project. And I did a bunch of other things. I wanted to put each one on a map. I did that, and I did a, I ended up doing a statistical analysis that I did not anticipate doing when I started, but that became kind of a significant thing, too. And that taught me more about this phenomenon, just looking at some of the statistics that seemed to jump out at me. So, all in all, like, you're seeing this phenomenon evolve over, especially the last couple of hundred years.

• 1:19:17Speaker 04

  It's like a little dance, like, where they're observing us, we're observing them. And there is reason to believe that they're, that they adapted, that they've adapted some of their behaviors due to our radical transformation of our own technology, especially over the last century. I mean, it's kind of an amazing thing. You know, you think of where we were in the oceans a little over a hundred years ago. We, the first operational submarine didn't deploy until the year 1900, and that was just like, you know, barely able to get in there. So, we were, we were not really going deep into the water.

• 1:19:55Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:19:56Speaker 04

  Until the 20th century. So...

• 1:19:58Danny Jones?

  Now, we have hundreds of them circling the oceans, loaded with nuclear warheads.

• 1:20:03Speaker 04

  Exactly, exactly. So, that's a major, like, imagine you're them. Let's say you're, you are them. You're here. You're watching these humans, these observant, intelligent, multi-fingered humans who can manipulate their environment, who are now organized into these collective, aggressive communities we call nations, peering over the fence at each other with deadly weapons that could end the entire planet's existence, and you're watching this, and...

• 1:20:31Speaker 04

  You're realizing, okay, so they're probably this far away from developing strong AI, from quantum computing, and from leaping into our world. Like, when's that gonna happen?

• 1:20:40Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:20:41Speaker 04

  Right? Because like, you can see the whole trajectory. You know that like, a few generations ago, they were all living in wooden huts, and now, wow, like, here we are.

• 1:20:49Danny Jones?

  About to reach the singularity.

• 1:20:51Speaker 04

  Yes, exactly. So, I have little doubt that any observing intelligence, like, they can see this whole thing play out. And so they're watching. But, but I have no doubt that we have our own little unique variations on the theme of developing intelligence. Maybe we're more aggressive, maybe we're not as ag- I don't know. But we're certainly very aggressive with each other. We're hi- highly territorial. So they're watching all of this, and they're seeing, you know, 1950s, we start developing nuclear submarines that can stay under water basically forever. And where now we develop these underground sonar systems that are mapping all activity,

• 1:21:29Speaker 04

  or increasingly more and more underwater activity, including anomalous activity, right? And not just Soviet or Russian subs, but everything.

• 1:21:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:41Speaker 04

  And so they have to adapt. And I think, when I was looking at the statistics of this, um, this whole thing happened because I finished writing all the cases, and I'm talking with my wife, and she's like, "You know, it'd be a great idea if, if for each case, you had like, a bunch of categories, so that someone could just like, look at the categories, like, uh, what color was the craft, what shape was the craft? What was it doing with the wa- was it under the water? Did it emerge from the water? How close are the witnesses?" And I'm like, "Damn it, that's a really good idea." I didn't want to do it because it was a lot of extra work. I had to go back over every case and siphon out that information. But it was a great idea, and I did do it. And I'm very glad I did it, because then that allowed me to put all of that into a

• 1:22:26Speaker 04

  spreadsheet, and look at like, almost 700 cases in like, 20. It's a big spreadsheet.

• 1:22:31Danny Jones?

  So it's like a database you've built?

• 1:22:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, and anyone can download it. It's a free download.

• 1:22:35Danny Jones?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:22:35Speaker 04

  I have it linked on my website. You can go check it out. But basically, I'm an amateur with statistical analysis. I can't pretend that I'm some genius at it, but I, you can still see things. So like, one thing I noticed is, one category was, I broke it down into day or night. Simple. Did this happen when the sun was out, or when it was dark? Like, very simple, little metric there. And one thing I noticed was that up until around 1967, 68, it was almost exactly 50/50, day versus night.

• 1:23:07Speaker 04

  And then suddenly, starting in the late 60s-

• 1:23:09Danny Jones?

  USOs.

• 1:23:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, USOs, exactly. Starting in the late 60s, it goes to 75% at night, and it was, it remained that to this day, 75%. Now, I mean, does that mean I just had too small a data sample and I need to get more cases? Eh, maybe. Could it be that I, I was just somehow, uh, not selecting, uh, a broad spectrum of cases? I mean, all of that's possible. I don't think so. I tried to pick what I thought were the best and most meaty cases, and something seems to have happened in the late 60s.

• 1:23:43Danny Jones?

  How do you go about mining all this information? Do you just look for and just scrub the internet for cases involving USOs? Or do you interview specific people, ask them?

• 1:23:53Speaker 04

  A little bit of both.

• 1:23:54Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:23:55Speaker 04

  Mostly, mostly pulling out the information from, there were a couple of websites where there's a lot of information. So, one is the National UFO Reporting Center. That's run by a very wonderful man named Peter Davenport, who's run it for years. And, uh, they've got a hundred thousand or more cases there that he's collected, going back many, many years. So, that's, that's important. Uh, MOFON, the Mutual UFO Network, has a, a database which I was, they graciously allowed me to use their database, which is nice, because I'm not a MOFON investigator, but they, uh, they knew what kind of work I was doing. And they said, yes, you can. And then, uh, I mentioned Carl Feint earlier. He, uh, had a website where he collected a bunch of these cases. So, I looked at all of those, and then there's books and, like, out of print magazines from

• 1:24:40Speaker 04

  the 1970s that I'd look for and just get them and, um, find these cases.

• 1:24:46Danny Jones?

  Where are people seeing these UF, USOs?

• 1:24:49Speaker 04

  Everywhere.

• 1:24:50Danny Jones?

  For the most part? Is there, is there, is there one spot in the world where they seem to be most, mostly condensed to or confined to? And second, second question is, what kind of people are reporting these?

• 1:24:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, there are hotspots. We probably, part of the problem with USOs is, we're all like, we live on the land. We're landlubbers, and so, usually, you're not out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. So, that's a problem right there.

• 1:25:13Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:14Speaker 04

  Uh, navies are, the US navies, but they don't like to talk. You'll get Navy stories-

• 1:25:20Speaker 04

  From some Navy guy like 20, 30 or more years after they retire. When sometimes anonymously, they will report something to some website somewhere.

• 1:25:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:31Speaker 04

  Like that happens. And I've tried to collect all of those. They're very interesting. But basically, we are, you know, so when people see these, they're usually on the coast. Or maybe they're on a lake or a river, but if it's an ocean base, which is most of them, it's along the coast. That's where people-

• 1:25:46Danny Jones?

  What about like, um, oil rigs?

• 1:25:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, a couple of them. There's a good one from the Gulf of Mexico. Gulf of America, Gulf of Mexico.

• 1:25:53Danny Jones?

  Gulf of America, brother. That's where we are, right there. Gulf's right there.

• 1:25:57Speaker 04

  Exactly. So one of my, there's quite a few from the Gulf here. Quite a few. And one of my favorite ones, this is from the National UFO Reporting Center from 2017. It's not that long ago. A guy operating on a rig rode into New Fork, the website, and he described this. He said, "I was with a bunch of other guys on our rig, and there was another rig, he said, "a couple of miles over this way, and in between, this humongous gargantuan, like football field plus size object comes out of the water, dripping water, flying saucer disc shape."

• 1:26:32Danny Jones?

  Football field?

• 1:26:33Speaker 04

  That's what he wrote. "We're watching it drip water. We're kind of blown away, and it just zips off. It's gone." Now, how do you investigate that? It's almost impossible. So Peter Davenport wrote as an addendum to this case. He said, "I spoke with the witness on the phone." Peter will do that sometimes. He said, "I found him to be highly credible, highly this and that." And like, apparently, this was a very well-spoken, believable individual. Peter found him credible. And that's really all that we have on this. But it's a pretty interesting story, and I tend, I mean, I read the account. And that's one of the cases that goes into the third volume of my study.

• 1:27:13Danny Jones?

  Did that corroborate any other accounts? Were there any other similar accounts with football?

• 1:27:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:18Danny Jones?

  Fields, really?

• 1:27:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. Also, not just USOs, but you get UFO cases of gargantuan size objects that have been reported over, over the years. You wonder, like, what are they doing? It's like a small city. You know?

• 1:27:31Danny Jones?

  It's the best place to hide. It really is.

• 1:27:34Speaker 04

  The oceans are, yeah, you know, there's a really great guy named Dr. Kevin Nooth out there. He teaches-

• 1:27:40Danny Jones?

  I've heard of that name.

• 1:27:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Kevin's a really good man. He teaches at Albany and in New York State. I think he's on our list, Steve.

• 1:27:48Speaker 05

  He's coming on the podcast.

• 1:27:50Speaker 04

  Is he really? Yeah, he's good, good, good. Shout out to Kevin. Well, yeah, he, um, he made a really, uh, a really good insight on this. And he just said, look, you know, look at the ocean. So a lot of things about it. First of all, it's non-compressible. In other words, the pressure is constant. So that could be, that could be helpful. It's, it's certainly protective. Like if you are from a place where maybe our solar radiation is not necessarily the right thing for you. You come from somewhere else, ocean is a protective place for that. It's, uh, temperature variations are far less in the ocean than they would be above the ocean. And a lot of other things. He said, you know, there's a lot of good reasons to, if you are from somewhere else.

• 1:28:34Speaker 04

  What if you are from a water? Right. Society. Sure. Well, the oceans might be, feel like home. So there are good reasons. And then of course, there's the human. Also, our skies are just littered with airplanes. So there's, that's, there's that. Yeah. And, and if you, if you are interested in these human creatures, well, you know that they live on the land, so they might hang out in the ocean, stay out of the way. So there's good reasons that the oceans would be providing you have the technology to do it. But if you've got that, then sure, why not? The, uh, you asked for hotspots, so I'll answer that. One is Puerto Rico. And particularly, I think, I think, uh, all around Puerto Rico. Really? But especially the, the east, west and northern coasts.

• 1:29:17Speaker 04

  The southern coast, yeah, but I think, I just haven't found as many. But along the, um, uh, you get like northwest Aguadilla. Man. Or you go out to the east, uh, the, the US Navy's got a big presence at a place called Roosevelt Roads there, facing Vieja Island. There's a lot of activity there. But north of the island, you've got the great Puerto Rico trench, which goes almost 30,000 feet down. It's like, it's super deep. And we cannot, we can't get down there. But there are.

• 1:29:50Danny Jones?

  I'm sorry, how deep did you say?

• 1:29:51Speaker 04

  Uh, about twenty, twenty, twenty-nine thousand feet, I think maybe close to thirty thousand feet. So you're talking

• 1:29:57Danny Jones?

  Can you find a map?

• 1:29:58Speaker 04

  Almost six miles down. It's, it's not quite as deep as the Marianas Trench in the Pacific, but it's, you know, close. And it's quite large, several hundred miles. So you have, um, there are a number of pretty good cases from that area. He's showing, pulling something up.

• 1:30:15Danny Jones?

  And who, um, who is reporting these cases in Aguadilla? Or around northern Puerto Rico?

• 1:30:21Speaker 04

  Aguadilla, yeah, that's not exactly at the trench, but it's, uh, you know, not that far from it, I guess.

• 1:30:27Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Or around this area, roughly?

• 1:30:29Speaker 04

  The cases go, uh, good Puerto Rico trench cases go back to the early sixties that I found, maybe even in the fifties. But they really start to collect in the sixties, early nineteen sixties. Gosh, there's some good Aguadilla cases from, uh, the seventies and the eighties and the nineties and the two thousands. Like, they, they've got it throughout. There's quite a few interesting ones. There's a picture of it there.

• 1:30:55Danny Jones?

  The Puerto Rico trench, go to that one, to the left of there, top left, yeah, right there. Blow that up so I can see it. Oh, wow.

• 1:31:03Speaker 04

  Tilted?

• 1:31:04Danny Jones?

  So that's, that is on, is that northeast, south, is that oriented the right way or is that reverse?

• 1:31:10Speaker 04

  It's, it's

• 1:31:10Speaker 05

  Northern plate is over here.

• 1:31:12Danny Jones?

  Ah, so that north is to the right?

• 1:31:14Speaker 04

  Correct, yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:15Danny Jones?

  And that would mean that Aguadilla is where?

• 1:31:18Speaker 04

  On the top left, top, top, top right, excuse me.

• 1:31:21Danny Jones?

  Top right, okay, I see.

• 1:31:23Speaker 04

  You've got it.

• 1:31:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that gets really deep right there, wow.

• 1:31:27Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's, it's super, super, extremely deep.

• 1:31:30Danny Jones?

  Are there military people that are reporting any of this stuff?

• 1:31:33Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, absolutely. Uh, well, reporting is a hard way to put it. So years after the fact, it comes, these stories will come out, you know, and in variety of ways.

• 1:31:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Speaker 04

  So Puerto Rico is one hotspot. Uh, we hear a lot of talk about California's Catalina Island.

• 1:31:51Danny Jones?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:31:52Speaker 04

  Near LA there, that, absolutely. The entire, uh, Atlantic seaboard of the United States going into Canada. Uh, Florida, where we are, is extremely very, very active on all sides of the peninsula.

• 1:32:05Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:32:05Speaker 04

  Florida, yeah.

• 1:32:17Speaker 06

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• 1:32:52Speaker 04

  Absolutely. But going all the way up the eastern US coast. But then that's, see, here's the problem with this. So USOs, just like UFOs or UAP now, it's very US-dominated in terms of reporting. Americans report this stuff way more. Seems, well, we have better reporting infrastructure. We've got MUFON, and we've got the National UFO Reporting Center. And so we're able to get these. Other regions of the world, I don't really think that they have the same infrastructure for collecting these cases.

• 1:33:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:33:26Speaker 04

  It's hard. Now, there are some areas, Italy, the Italian researchers have collected a lot. They do a lot of very good work out there. And you get some good cases out by Norway and Britain, absolutely.

• 1:33:41Danny Jones?

  What about South America?

• 1:33:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, South America, there's good. I mean, I would have tended to think I'd find more because I, you just, you kind of like know there's a lot of activity going on in South America. And there's a decent number of USO cases, yes. So down by Buenos Aires and Argentina, also all along Brazil. Brazil's got a lot.

• 1:34:01Danny Jones?

  Brazil's got a crazy history, just in general, of UFOs.

• 1:34:04Speaker 04

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:34:05Danny Jones?

  I recently learned about that Jacques Vallée book where there was like a massacre down there.

• 1:34:10Speaker 04

  Colares.

• 1:34:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:12Speaker 04

  Yes, at the Amazon, the delta reaching out to the Atlantic Ocean. In the late seventies, yes, yes, yes. And there's a lot of those that are genuine USO cases. So many of those were seen in the water, coming out of the water, entering the water. That's an incredibly ecologically important area, part of this world. I mean, it's the most massive amount of water flow, I think, going into any ocean on the planet.

• 1:34:39Danny Jones?

  The Amazon River?

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, out of the Amazon. It's massive. This is incredibly ecologically important and rich, like, estuary, where you've got, it's very, it's just very important. So maybe there's part of that that's going on. Maybe they're interested in that.

• 1:34:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:55Speaker 04

  But anyway, yeah, there were some cases in the late seventies there where people were killed and severely injured by these objects. And that definitely appears to be the case.

• 1:35:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it was a lot, it seemed like. The way it was described to me was that there was like, it seemed like a slaughter of people. Or it was a lot of, a lot of people being murdered and not in a kind way, by something.

• 1:35:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, and in fact, there are claims that this type of thing goes on to this day. Not necessarily in that specific region, but other parts of South America, I've

• 1:35:27Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:35:27Speaker 04

  I have, I've heard.

• 1:35:29Danny Jones?

  How recently?

• 1:35:30Speaker 04

  Like, quite recently. There's a gentleman I know named Tim Albarino. I really liked him. He went down, where the hell was he? Was it Peru? Maybe? Anyway, just in the last few years, some very bizarre cases of like, human mutilation type cases that he was looking into. I wish I could

• 1:35:56Danny Jones?

  And these are with, these are with

• 1:35:57Speaker 04

  I wish I could remember this a little bit better than I do.

• 1:36:00Danny Jones?

  Are these with indigenous people? Or are these with, like, like, like, English-speaking?

• 1:36:07Speaker 04

  Uh, indigenous, not living completely indigenous lifestyles, but, you know, very kind of, like, rural.

• 1:36:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:16Speaker 04

  South American type, yeah. Yeah, I mean, they have some technology, so they're not.

• 1:36:21Danny Jones?

  They're not uncontacted tribes.

• 1:36:23Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:36:23Danny Jones?

  But they are, uh.

• 1:36:25Speaker 04

  They live a more basic kind of a life than than we might hear with technology.

• 1:36:29Danny Jones?

  And they're described, were there any details to like, who was responsible for this? Or like what their what their descriptions were of who was doing this stuff?

• 1:36:40Speaker 04

  Well, there's, you know, Tracy's in the next room. She could probably jump in on this better than I could. But I'll just say that there's reason to wonder that this was a human operation going on. That is not necessarily an alien thing, that this could be some kind of really like a diabolical covert op type of a thing happening.

• 1:37:00Speaker 04

  Possibly. I don't want to say much more because I I'm afraid I'm gonna say something that's not accurate.

• 1:37:06Danny Jones?

  Okay, I see.

• 1:37:07Speaker 04

  But.

• 1:37:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is, look, this is a subject where. I think I, you know, started this 30 years ago, thinking I'm gonna go down this rabbit hole for a couple of months. And here you are, like, it just opens up all of these. Fascinating and sometimes disturbing possibilities that are out there. You know?

• 1:37:28Danny Jones?

  Out of all the USO cases that you went over, which one was it? Were there any that stuck out to you or that?

• 1:37:34Speaker 04

  Many.

• 1:37:35Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:37:35Speaker 04

  Quite a few that I think are just amazing.

• 1:37:37Danny Jones?

  What?

• 1:37:38Speaker 04

  I could I could throw out a couple for you.

• 1:37:40Danny Jones?

  Throw a couple. Also, I do wanna, I wanna know more about that 1717 case.

• 1:37:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'll tell you that right now. That's right off the coast of Martinique, that's in the Caribbean.

• 1:37:48Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:37:48Speaker 04

  So it's not that far from where we are here, we're in Florida. The name of the captain, I cannot recall his name. Chevalier, something. He wrote in his log, this is so there. This is at, it's after midnight, so it's dark.

• 1:38:06Speaker 04

  There was, I looked into this, there was like a half moon out, so there was some light that was available. And what he claimed to have seen. Was a vertical orientation, like a like a rod. He said it was like a mast of a ship. So like you and I envisioned like a a straight perpendicular. Rod of some sort, but above the water. Moving along with his ship.

• 1:38:34Speaker 04

  It's not the best case, but it's not the worst. Like, it was, I decided to include it because he wrote in a very matter-of-fact way. It was like

• 1:38:42Danny Jones?

  Seventeen seventeen.

• 1:38:43Speaker 04

  Seventeen seventeen.

• 1:38:44Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:38:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:38:45Danny Jones?

  This is way before submarines, obviously.

• 1:38:47Speaker 04

  Absolutely. And the eighteenth century, which that is part of, I don't, there's not many that I have found. There's an interesting one off the coast of southern France, I think from seventeen forty. That's kind of interesting. And then there's one from a river, a little small river in Scotland in seventeen sixty-seven. And I think that might be it for the eighteen, only like a couple of cases. It really starts going. The first really good one that I just was kind of really taken by took place in eighteen twenty-five. And this was on a British vessel where they had just returned from Hawaii. In fact,

• 1:39:30Speaker 04

  well, there's a lot of interesting stories going on here. But they were coming back from Hawaii and they were going down the Pacific. And they were going to end up in Chile.

• 1:39:38Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:39:39Speaker 04

  So they were down by the Cook Islands. So it's like way down in the south part of the Pacific, the Pacific Ocean. And it's three thirty in the morning. The ships, there was a naturalist aboard the ship. I think of like in the movie Master and Commander, they, you know, the buddy of Russell Crowe, the captain, was this naturalist that they had aboard the ship. And it was around the same time period. So I'm thinking something like that. He writes in his log, it's eighteen twenty-five, his name was Andrew Bloxham, we've got his name. His, his book is published. You can find the PDF online. I have a link to it from my book. And he said, yeah, three thirty, the, the watch on the ship reported

• 1:40:22Speaker 04

  a spherical object emerging from the ocean. He said it was like, it looked like a red cannon shot coming out of the water. So it was like a deep orange type of a color, but incredibly bright. He said it was so bright, and he literally said you could pick a pin off the deck. It lifted up to a certain elevation and then went back down into the water and then came up a second time and then went back into the water. Now. You know, how many naturalistic explanations can you think of that can account for this? I can't think of any. And Bloxham writes this in a very straightforward way. I mean, you read the rest of his diaries. I've read some of it.

• 1:41:07Speaker 04

  I mean, he was clearly a very meticulous, very rational man. And a very intelligent guy. And this, just this one bizarre entry in his, in his journal from August 12th, 1825. That's a heck of a case. And I thought, that's like the first really, really cool case.

• 1:41:27Danny Jones?

  Do you remember how close or how far they were from land?

• 1:41:31Speaker 04

  They were off the Cook Islands. So those are, I don't know how close they were to that. They were, I, I don't think they were close to land. I think they were out there. They were out in the ocean. I don't know exactly. So he said, you know. And there's some other good ones from the 19th. There's one from, uh, is he, what's that there?

• 1:41:49Speaker 05

  I, I found the story. Uh, Bloxham with a, with an X. Where is it? I just found it.

• 1:41:55Speaker 04

  Oh, you got it?

• 1:41:56Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, this is the story.

• 1:41:58Speaker 04

  Good. Good deal. Yeah.

• 1:42:01Danny Jones?

  Any, what has it got? You got illustrations or what?

• 1:42:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think this is the illustration of that event.

• 1:42:07Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 1:42:08Speaker 05

  At least it's included with the story.

• 1:42:10Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay. Looks like an iceberg behind it, right?

• 1:42:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, they, they weren't by icebergs.

• 1:42:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah, Cook Islands, there wouldn't have been icebergs.

• 1:42:18Speaker 04

  No. But that's the name, Andrew Bloxham.

• 1:42:22Danny Jones?

  Okay. Interesting.

• 1:42:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, the HMS Blonde, correct. That's the ship.

• 1:42:26Danny Jones?

  And what year again? 18?

• 1:42:28Speaker 04

  Twenty-five.

• 1:42:29Danny Jones?

  Twenty-five.

• 1:42:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:42:30Danny Jones?

  Wow. And what was the size of the thing? Did they?

• 1:42:35Speaker 04

  I, he, you know, I don't think he was a direct witness. So I think he was reporting what the Night Watch reported.

• 1:42:39Danny Jones?

  Ah.

• 1:42:40Speaker 04

  So there's that. So he's not a direct witness. So.

• 1:42:43Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:42:43Speaker 04

  You can take that away from him.

• 1:42:44Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:42:45Speaker 04

  But they, um.

• 1:42:48Speaker 04

  I don't know if they had a really good size estimate. I get the impression it was kind of large. I mean, it was noticeable. It was very bright.

• 1:42:53Danny Jones?

  Lit up the deck of the ship.

• 1:42:55Speaker 04

  By the way, so, fast forward about 150 years to 1971.

• 1:43:01Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:43:03Speaker 04

  This is going into my next volume, and, uh, the USS John F. Kennedy aircraft carrier, so, is near Puerto Rico, just saying, uh, they had just, they were, uh, just finished what were called car quals, carrier qualifications. So, they had done, this is a very involved series of, uh, exercises, and they had just completed that. It's 8:30, July 2nd, 1971, and the man operating communications, and we have his name, he, he in fact, uh, reported this to Stephen Greer 25 years ago, and it's, it's in Greer's book Disclosure, which he wrote back then. And he, his name is James Kopf, with a K, and he also reported this

• 1:43:46Speaker 04

  to a couple of other, um, websites, uh, at the time. So, he's operating communications on the JFK carrier, 8:30 at night, and, he says, suddenly, all of the communication, he, he discussed the, the way the communications on the ship were, he said, incoming and outgoing. He said, suddenly, everything was gibberish. Now, everything coming in was just garbled messages. He's like, what, what's going on here? And then he hears, I'm laughing, but it's really, it's kind of not that funny. He hears on the intercom, someone screaming,

• 1:44:24Speaker 04

  "It's God. It's the end of the world." So, he's thinking, "What is going on?" He goes, he's able to go out and look, and he sees almost what is described in, in Bloxham's account from 1825. He sees a glowing orange sphere hovering above or near the JFK. He said it gave off about half the strength of sunlight. So it's kind of bright. And there are sailors who were having a really difficult time emotionally with this. One, he said later, definitely had to be sedated in some way or another and whatever.

• 1:45:07Speaker 04

  So he's watching this for maybe half a minute, not long. And then the ship goes to battle stations, general quarters. So they've all got to go. So he has to go back to his communication station where he says for the next 20, 25 minutes, the ship was on general quarters and communications were just down. And he also stated that he believed that the weapons, like aircraft, like I think, what do they have, F4s, they were not operational. So the aircraft would not fly or weapons would not operate. So anyway, I've mentioned this because that glowing spherical object, I mean, to me, it's almost, it seems like it could have been identical to the one from the 1820s.

• 1:45:52Speaker 04

  And you get this same type of glowing globular sphere.

• 1:45:58Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:45:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, what is that, right?

• 1:46:00Danny Jones?

  What is that? I wonder how many of them there are, you know? Because like the most, the first one that I ever heard about was the Tic Tac.

• 1:46:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:46:08Danny Jones?

  And that thing was like zooming around, zipping around and I think it was.

• 1:46:13Speaker 04

  I think there's a good chance there was something below the water there, too.

• 1:46:16Danny Jones?

  Oh, you think there was a bigger ship that it came out of or something?

• 1:46:19Speaker 04

  I think so, yeah. There's talk about that and it's not 100% confirmed, but that's what I think is probably the case. But yeah, well, the Tic Tac's a great case for sure. Absolutely for sure.

• 1:46:32Danny Jones?

  I mean, that one's like, apparently it's documented on all of his radar, right? Even though it hasn't been released.

• 1:46:39Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, there's a lot of good witnesses for that. Kevin Day, who operated the radar aboard the USS Princeton, who's a very decent man, is a friend of ours, was there and has talked about this in great detail. And of course, we have David Fravor's testimony and a number of the other witnesses now have come out who have discussed it. So I don't think that we have any doubt that something very, very unusual happened there for sure of extremely high order of intelligence as well. I mean, anything that can appear at what's called the cap, the cap point before.

• 1:47:16Danny Jones?

  You get there.

• 1:47:16Speaker 04

  They get there.

• 1:47:20Danny Jones?

  It's like time travel.

• 1:47:22Speaker 04

  Some, well, a put off called it space time metric engineering. Maybe that's what they're doing.

• 1:47:28Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:47:28Speaker 04

  Uh, in some way.

• 1:47:29Danny Jones?

  That's San Diego, right? That's not anywhere near Catalina.

• 1:47:32Speaker 04

  It's off the coast of, that happened off the coast of lower Baja California.

• 1:47:36Danny Jones?

  Oh, that was in near Baja California?

• 1:47:38Speaker 04

  I think, yeah, a little south, probably southwest of San Diego, I think.

• 1:47:42Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:47:43Speaker 04

  Not, not that far.

• 1:47:44Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:47:45Speaker 04

  But off out, out there in the Pacific.

• 1:47:49Danny Jones?

  I have.

• 1:47:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff out in the ocean.

• 1:47:50Danny Jones?

  I have a friend who lives in Tijuana and he says there's all kinds of like UFO stuff going on out there, especially like in the wa, like USO type stuff and stuff that you really don't hear about in like the media in the US.

• 1:48:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, I think that there's a lot of anecdotal information in, in Mexico. I have, uh, you know, we spoke to a couple of years ago, a gentleman who had an interesting USO account uh, off the Yucatan part of it, you know, on the other side.

• 1:48:16Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:48:17Speaker 04

  But yeah, I think, I think, I don't think they get reported officially. So they're just like, the stories are floating around there, as it were. And uh, help, I, I have no doubt there's far more cases that are connected to Mexico than we probably, you know, I have been able to find.

• 1:48:35Danny Jones?

  You know, the, just the reports from like, uh, Robert Hastings with the UFOs and nukes and the, the, saucers showing up above these nuclear missile silos and things like this. I can't imagine that there's not some crazy case of like a UFO, like stopping a nuclear submarine or something, or interacting with like a big nuclear sub.

• 1:48:55Speaker 04

  Well, we have some pretty good account, actually the best accounts of that. By the way, I'm a very big admirer of Robert Hastings' work, especially on nukes. Very, very important. So I'm glad you mentioned him. But uh, yeah, the best nuclear submarine stories that I've been able to find, I mean, there's a one or two of American, but the Soviets, Soviet Union. Um, yeah, they have some.

• 1:49:22Speaker 04

  We learned about them. I think a lot of this happened when the Soviet Union fell in 1991. And for a while there, a lot of these stories came out, a lot of KGB files and this type of thing. And so we, Soviet Navy in the late 60s and through the 70s, and probably beyond, reported something, and I'm sure I'm going to mispronounce this, it's spelled kavakary. It's a Russian word that apparently means frogs, because these things would make a croaking sound in the water. So Soviet submarines, and I think this is most active in the northern Atlantic, very strategically important area if you're operating submarines.

• 1:50:07Speaker 04

  And they were encountering these, and at first, so these objects would be in the water, they'd hear these bizarre croaking type sounds apparently, and wonder, is this Americans? What is this, is this some kind of new technology we have to worry about?

• 1:50:22Danny Jones?

  And were they hearing it through their equipment?

• 1:50:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, through their equipment, and apparently these things would like circle around them. That's not easy to do, to circle around a nuclear submarine. But that would happen, and there'd be multiple ones of them, they'd be surrounded, they never got a sense that these were acting in a hostile manner. To your question, like, are they engaging in that? I don't, I'm not aware that the Soviets believed that these kavakary were operating in a hostile way, but they were spooky, and I think they definitely spooked them.

• 1:51:01Speaker 04

  And there was a, apparently a formal classified study of them that was supposedly within the Soviet military structure. It's not available that I'm aware of, but...

• 1:51:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's interesting, because you can only have your equipment to measure what's going on outside. You don't really have, those submarines don't have giant windows to see like, what's going on out there. So those things could probably evade any kind of detection.

• 1:51:27Speaker 04

  One of the things that just fascinates me about these USOs is...

• 1:51:33Speaker 04

  Like whenever I write about any of these, I try to whatever extent possible to put myself in that position to, because you want to be, you want to be accurate, want to be analytical, but you really want to like, I want to feel what is it like to be there. So imagine it's the Cold War, it's the 1960s or 70s, and you're in the water and you're hunting for the enemy. You're a Russian, you're hunting for the Americans, you're American, you're hunting for the Russians, and it's pitch black. And, you know, and then there's this other thing. There's this other presence that's there. I mean, it's not hard to see why there would be secrecy from their

• 1:52:18Speaker 04

  point of view about this. I mean, honestly, I mean, but the amount of drama. Is my microphone, am I okay here? Am I okay?

• 1:52:27Danny Jones?

  Pull up just a little bit, just in case.

• 1:52:29Speaker 04

  I don't want to mess it up.

• 1:52:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he's good.

• 1:52:30Speaker 04

  Okay, thank you. I just have to think, like, the drama, the human drama, has got to be off the charts for these people to have experiences. And that was one of the real draws for me to, to engage in this project.

• 1:52:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's one of the things I think about a lot, too. Like, you know, there's various ideas of like, how many people in the world know the truth about this stuff, right? Like, how many people that exist on Earth know everything outside of the compartmented, you know what I mean? People that have all the pieces to the puzzle, maybe, maybe 100, 200, 300. Who knows?

• 1:53:05Speaker 04

  I mean, I've spent 30 plus years and I'm not one of them.

• 1:53:07Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:53:08Speaker 04

  I've tried, I tried to get a handle on it, but there's massive gaps I have at.

• 1:53:14Danny Jones?

  I always imagine, like, if you were one of those people, if they do exist, if there is anyone who has the whole picture, the whole, every piece of the pie, what that must do to your worldview and your, you know what I mean? Just like your life and separating your work life from your, from your family life, if you have a family life, if you could, if that can exist, knowing that, right?

• 1:53:39Speaker 04

  About 15, 16 years ago, I think, I coined a phrase, which is still out there, I still hear, it's called breakaway civilization. So it's the idea that...

• 1:53:49Danny Jones?

  You coined that phrase?

• 1:53:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:53:50Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:53:51Speaker 04

  It was my little thing, yeah.

• 1:53:52Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:53:54Speaker 04

  And I was thinking, because I'm interested in the study of human civilizations, it's very... I once read the condensed version of a book by Arnold Toynbee, a really great historian. It's like the Mozart of historians in my opinion. And he wrote this. What's his name? Arnold Toynbee. He was a genius. Okay. And I think he died in the 40s. But he wrote this, something that is really not popular anymore. He did these meta historians. Like, he was looking at the grand progress of of human society and what is it that makes a civilization? And so he did this comparative study of human civilizations. Anyway,

• 1:54:37Speaker 04

  I was reading that at the time, this is 2007, 2008, and I thought, you know, what about a civilization that develops out of the classified world? That we don't know about?

• 1:54:56Speaker 04

  Based on Roswell Tech, or whatever other advanced tech that is kept secret. We had examples during the Cold War of separate scientific infrastructure. In the Soviet Union, they had a separate scientific infrastructure that in a lot of ways was based on some really bizarre things. They had this guy named Trofim Lysenko, who had these very unusual ideas about biology and evolution that were only designed to conform with Soviet communist ideology. And, but it forced an entire infrastructure to go down this dead-end path, basically, of research. So like, there are, now that's something we know about.

• 1:55:39Speaker 04

  But could you develop, I asked myself, based on UFO tech that is kept secret, which I was really thinking a lot about, of course, at that time, to the point where you would have breakthroughs?

• 1:55:56Speaker 04

  In terms of understanding, whether it's gravity or material science, or understanding who these beings are, that you cannot share with the rest of the world, but you, that doesn't stop you from continuing on to develop this. And so you, you end up going on your own path. And you kind of break away intellectually and cosmologically and maybe technologically from, you know, us, us little pearls living on the surface, but you, you are aware of anti-grav research. You have the ability to go off-world, maybe. You have the ability to learn who these other beings are more than. So that would, I called it a breakaway civilization, when that's broken away from our own. That doesn't necessarily mean that they all live

• 1:56:41Speaker 04

  on Mars in like, what's that, alternative three types of thing. But it could mean, as you were just saying, you've got a job in the classified world, you go off, you punch the clock, and you go into your classified project, which then through that, you probably go into through another classified project, and maybe a third. And so you've got all these layers of cover. And then you do your work, you're in the breakaway, and then you come home, you say hello to your spouse. How was work, dear? Oh, it was a pretty good day, you know. And you can't really talk about it. So that, I think, is probably, that was my, my vision of it. Other people have taken the idea, Joseph Farrell, we talked about Joseph, he has, he actually wrote about it as well. And you could, you can go pretty

• 1:57:22Speaker 04

  far with it. I'm usually, I'm more cautious about it than almost anyone else that I've heard talk about it. But I do believe that there's probably something like that.

• 1:57:32Danny Jones?

  Well, if you were one of the executives of one of those corporations that did have this technology that's been evolving since the 50s with some sort of crazy physical understanding of physics that the rest of the world doesn't even understand, and you now have weapons that are more powerful than the United States military, Russia, China, all of them combined, and the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff wants some answers, you're gonna give him the double bird. You're gonna say, fuck off. You're not getting any of our stuff. We could take out every single military on the, in the, in the snap of our fingers. So like, you, you, you don't have to answer to anybody.

• 1:58:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, if they're that independent. I mean, that's a really good question. And you're getting into a, a key area, which is how, what is the structure of this secrecy for real? Like, who?

• 1:58:22Speaker 04

  Who's running it? Who's the guy in charge? And does he answer to someone else? Does he answer to them? There's all kinds of possibilities.

• 1:58:32Danny Jones?

  Who does he answer to? Right.

• 1:58:33Speaker 04

  Exactly. I don't know. I don't have that answer.

• 1:58:37Danny Jones?

  This is interesting. You know, I had this lady on recently, this woman who tracks money in the government, in government spending and budgets and stuff like this. And she was a head. She was a work during the Bush administration. And she was a part.

• 1:58:52Speaker 04

  Talking about Catherine Austin Fitz?

• 1:58:54Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:58:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, she's a great friend of mine.

• 1:58:55Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:58:56Speaker 04

  Love Catherine.

• 1:58:57Danny Jones?

  I just had her on. Fascinating.

• 1:58:58Speaker 04

  She's a brilliant lady.

• 1:59:00Danny Jones?

  She was explaining, yeah, she was explaining like how the money that went missing when Donald Rumsfeld did that press conference the day before nine 11.

• 1:59:06Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:59:07Danny Jones?

  Four trillion dollars missing from the from the receipts from the Pentagon.

• 1:59:10Speaker 04

  I think his quote was 2.3 trillion.

• 1:59:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I got it wrong. 2.3.

• 1:59:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, yeah, that's all right.

• 1:59:16Danny Jones?

  And basically, you know, she looks at this whole thing from a balance sheet perspective, saying all these trillions of dollars have gone missing and they're not accounted for. And if this if these things went to black projects, you know, what we're speculating about with companies that have all this crazy tech is not that far off.

• 1:59:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, a couple of things. So first of all, everyone should know who Catherine Austin Fitz is. She's a real, a great benefactor to our civilization. And she is a gem and a brilliant individual and a wonderful person. She's like an absolutely decent, wonderful.

• 1:59:52Danny Jones?

  Totally.

• 1:59:54Speaker 04

  So but she's also. She has opened up this whole area. Now, the thing about the 2 point, first it was 2.6 trillion in the summer of 01. That was 2.3. And that number, actually, they supposedly got it down to zero. If you want to believe that. But but but the what they really were talking about, as I understand it, and Catherine could probably do this better, far better than me. It doesn't, to my understanding, necessarily mean that 2.3 trillion dollars went missing. You're talking about unresolved discrepancies in the payments. You've got all these different accounting systems within the Pentagon. And you've got, so there's a lot of opportunities

• 2:00:36Speaker 04

  for duplicate transactions to be recorded. And so I don't really know how much money gets siphoned out. There's definitely, I mean, I completely agree, a lot of money that's gotten siphoned out. And what is the exact number? Beats 2.3 trillion dollars would be, you know, the Pentagon's official budget in 2001 was something like 300 billion. So you're talking a factor of eight. So how do you lose eight times your annual budget? Beats me. I don't know what, how that works. My accounting skills are not very good. But clearly, we are talking about, one thing Catherine said to me, I think, and she's probably written it. She, she talked about when she first, she became Assistant Secretary

• 2:01:21Speaker 04

  of HUD, Housing and Urban Development. Yes, correct. In the first Bush administration, back in 1989. And, you know, her thing was always finance. She's a financial whiz. And she described, and Catherine, forgive me if I get this slightly wrong. She said, I want to look at the, the full budget of HUD. Was that it? And they're like, you're not authorized. And she said, the hell, I'm not authorized. So she said, they eventually wheeled in, she described the library carts, you know, like where you have library books, like one after another, after another, filled with stacks of papers. And she, I think she said something like, you know, God could not sort this mess

• 2:02:00Speaker 04

  out. It was designed, it was so, it was, it was physically un-auditable. And, and one of her points, I definitely remember this, was, it was, it was like designed by default, physically impossible to audit the US government. And, and she made a very, many, many astute observations. She just said, look, we have a system where these people are, they do not adhere to the rule of law. They are above the rule of law. Yes. And I, I think, you know, that puts it as well as anyone's ever done.

• 2:02:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's a terrifying idea that all this money is going to some stuff that we know. And then

• 2:02:42Speaker 04

  Well, think of one thing here.

• 2:02:43Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 2:02:43Speaker 04

  So, all of our history, right, we, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

• 2:02:47Danny Jones?

  No, no.

• 2:02:48Speaker 04

  All of our history has been an extremely hierarchical structure. So you've always, it's always been this way. You have a king, priesthood, guys in charge, and they own everything, they control everything. But in the last couple of hundred years, we like to think that we have this democracy of some sort, where everyone's participating and it's egalitarian. And yeah, that's, that's what we actually have, is it's a pretend democracy. And both parts of that are equally important. You have to have the, people need to believe that they have a kind of democratic system, or else they'd be very unhappy, because we want to think that we have a say in our system.

• 2:03:31Speaker 04

  But the reality has always been, there's always been elites, there's always been the guys on top. And throughout all of the 19th and 20th and now 21st century, their goal has always been to figure out, how do we let the people keep believing these little fairy tales while we keep running things the way we've always done? And that's really what the system is. And so now it's a system that is inherently dishonest. It has to rule by lies, because, and that, that distorts all of our politics too, because everything's now out in the open. You can't really, yeah, everything's got to be kind of tossed out there for the people. And it's all a series of manipulations, one after the next. It's just, we get propagandized 24/7, basically what it is.

• 2:04:14Danny Jones?

  Sure. Yeah, and it's built on lies. And that's why they can't disclose certain things, because they feel like that will unravel a whole nother layer of lies.

• 2:04:23Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 2:04:24Danny Jones?

  That will, that will make people accountable for things.

• 2:04:27Speaker 04

  That's exactly.

• 2:04:27Danny Jones?

  And people will go to prison, I'm sure. I'm sure there'll be a lot of really terrible consequences for divulging some of the secret information that they have.

• 2:04:34Speaker 04

  Go back to UFOs. I mean, 15 years ago, I co-authored a really, a cool book with a man named Bryce Zabel. And it's called AD After Disclosure. So that was, that was, I think, the only book-length treatment on like, how could disclosure happen? What would, how would it, how would it rock our world if it were to happen? And it feels like a different lifetime, I mean, 15 years ago. 2010 was a totally different world. It feels like, but, but.

• 2:05:02Speaker 04

  One thing that I've always felt is that a genuine reveal of this whole UFO, UAP subject, like a true reveal,

• 2:05:13Speaker 04

  is highly, highly destabilizing. Really? Yes, 100%, 100%. And this is why there is an absolutely like, "We are never gonna give this up." Like, there are factions that will never give this up. They will never... Right. Look, think of it, like... But what, they will never give it up? They'll never willingly give up this secret. To protect us, or to protect themselves? Protect themselves, to protect the system that's in place. Right, sure. They may rationalize it to say, "You people don't know what you're getting into, we're protecting you." Right. Like, I could see them justifying that. Yeah. Maybe they're right. We don't know all of it, do we? I believe in truth. I like to think that most of us believe in truth. And if I'm gonna have faith in anything, it's gonna be a faith in, in truth.

• 2:05:59Speaker 04

  I, what else? If you cannot believe in truth, what else you got? Like, so I, I'm gonna believe in that.

• 2:06:08Speaker 04

  However, so let's say,

• 2:06:12Speaker 04

  now in 2010, when we wrote this, the country was not nearly as polarized as it is now. So in 2010, we're envisioning the president goes and tells the world, "Well, you know, this thing happened, this sighting occurred, we can't really ignore it anymore. Yes, it's real, and some, and some of them are not human and they're here." That would be disclosure, right? That's kind of what we all imagine. And, so even under that scenario, so I think it's way more complex now, we can get to that. But even in that scenario,

• 2:06:48Speaker 04

  I was, you know, even in 2010, I was all over 9/11. I got into a lot of trouble among some UFO researchers because I was an early 9/11 conspiracy guy. Were you? Absolutely, I still am. Really? Not gonna be insulted by that pack of lies? We'll come back to that, then. Yeah, yeah, I'm, you know, it's... There are people far more conversant with that than me, but yes. My dad worked at the World Trade Center back in September 01. He had the day off. My dad had the day off. What? My dad was a retired New York City cop at the time and he had a really cool job as a fire safety director, as they were called, at the Twin Towers. He shared his job with a really nice man who I knew, who was killed that day.

• 2:07:33Speaker 04

  Name was Billy. And it really affected my dad. It was a real tough thing. So 9/11 was a very personal thing on that level. I mean, for anyone who went through that, of course, I'm not saying like more for me than anyone else. But my dad was there. That's crazy.

• 2:07:49Danny Jones?

  So your dad knew a lot of people that died and you're sure you did too?

• 2:07:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, a lot of firefighters, of course, and a lot of good people.

• 2:07:55Danny Jones?

  One of my theories on 9/11 is that people that were closest to it and affected by it the most emotionally and personally are the ones that have, and I could be wrong here though. I think you proved this wrong, but those are the ones that have the least capacity to entertain any

• 2:08:12Speaker 04

  No, you're right.

• 2:08:13Danny Jones?

  Any of the alternate ideas of what happened, right? That don't go with the narrative, right? They seem to be the ones that go with the narrative. The people who are more disconnected from it or even born after.

• 2:08:22Speaker 04

  You're totally right.

• 2:08:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, I almost wrote a book. Keep wondering about this, on False Flags, the history of false flag operations in our world. I got really into it and in fact, I did a, I wrote a little TV series for Gaia Television, a number of years ago, on the history of false flags. You can go find it, go to Gaia and go look for it.

• 2:08:45Speaker 04

  That was much less than I had actually researched. I did a lot more research on false flags than I did for that series, but one thing that a false flag does to people, it's a

• 2:09:00Speaker 04

  It's a real psychological head game that you play on people because you are creating this massive trauma for your society. It's an emotional trauma. And what you're doing is this horrible, horrible thing happens and people are naturally going to be deeply upset by it. And then what you do, this is the genius of it, you find the solution immediately, whether it's Hitler invading Poland and saying, "We were attacked by the Poles," which is what he did, or any other, there's a lot of false flags. America is the king of false flags, especially after World War II. And all the covert ops that we have done.

• 2:09:43Speaker 04

  But anyway, you create a catastrophe, a trauma, that people freak out over and you identify it, you connect the emotion to the intellect. So you have the emotional connection to some kind of, here's the explanation. And once, once you get that, people, like my own dad, my father, you know, when I started really looking at 9/11, I used to talk to my dad on the phone about this. And I have to be careful because I could get emotional. So just forgive me here.

• 2:10:18Danny Jones?

  Sure, sure.

• 2:10:20Speaker 04

  But my dad learns that like, Richie, are you looking into, I just saw this PBS thing and it just showed, he talked about the pancake theory that was put out, total bullshit theory. But it was, that was put out within a week of the event. This guy comes out and says, this is how it happened. Like, no, you have no freaking idea.

• 2:10:41Danny Jones?

  What was it, what was that theory, roughly?

• 2:10:42Speaker 04

  The planes crashing caused a pancaking effect

• 2:10:47Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:10:48Speaker 04

  Of the one floor and the other floor and all the way down. And it did not happen that way at all.

• 2:10:54Speaker 04

  But it was, so anyway, that goes on to PBS, which is total CIA op anyway. And my dad bought into it. Of course he did, you know, I don't blame him. And then he was like, he really had a struggle with the fact that his son was going all into this alternative theory about 9/11. And I'd talk with him every week on the phone. And he came around, you know, my dad, we'll have to talk about something else. So let's move, move on. We'll come back to it when I can collect myself.

• 2:11:26Danny Jones?

  Sure. We were talking about disclosure and what it would look like and what the incentives would be for disclosure and how, you did mention that you think disclosure nowadays would be far more complex than it would have been in the past.

• 2:11:41Speaker 04

  Yes, I do. Yeah, I do because, well, because Trump, if I can, am I allowed to say that on YouTube?

• 2:11:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:49Speaker 04

  You know, he hits the scene in 2015, basically.

• 2:11:52Danny Jones?

  Actually, it will do better on YouTube, if you say Trump.

• 2:11:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, and, you know, I mean, how do, how do you talk about this without 50% of the population shitting their pants?

• 2:12:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:08Speaker 04

  So whatever I end up saying, someone's going to be upset. But, but basically, you have a guy who comes in that is the ultra most polarizing political figure that we've had since Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln was a highly polarizing president, if you really go back. But here comes Trump. And, and so now we're at a point where, whether it's Trump or anyone else, whether it was Biden, it wouldn't be no different because a president who comes up there, says anything on this, and you've got half the country, half the world, maybe, saying, I don't believe you. They're not going to believe it. So that's, that's a complication where we're in a kind of a post-truth world, essentially, where how do you?

• 2:12:52Speaker 04

  How do we actually reliably fact check? You have so-called fact checkers out there now, and we all know it's nonsense.

• 2:13:00Danny Jones?

  So difficult.

• 2:13:01Speaker 04

  And they're so politicized, and they're so ultra-establishment oriented. It's obvious.

• 2:13:05Danny Jones?

  People just lean into their audience.

• 2:13:07Speaker 04

  Yeah. So I think that really complicates disclosure as well. I mean, look, you know, we were talking earlier in this conversation about the congressional thing, and skeptics will just, they'll just jump on anything, and they'll cause a lot of noise, and it works.

• 2:13:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah, well, I've thought about it, and I think I'm probably in that camp, where if the top, top, top level of government came out and said aliens are real, I would probably think the opposite, or something, there's some sort of weird mix, right? I mean, there's definitely a large amount of people out there who, for, you can't really blame them, that they, whatever the government tells them, they think the opposite's true.

• 2:13:47Speaker 04

  You're probably gonna be right to a certain extent. Think of, I think of the UFO reality as a mountain, right? As a massive Mount Everest. And so you're gonna disclose that? You're gonna disclose that whole thing?

• 2:13:56Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:13:56Speaker 04

  Right? You think so?

• 2:13:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:58Speaker 04

  So what they'll do is they'll take like a little freaking sliver, and say, here, and it would be a true sliver, right? But it's certainly an incomplete, and I'm sure it's a sliver that will provide the cover-your-ass rule very effectively, to make you look as good as possible.

• 2:14:14Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:14:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's going to be deceptive.

• 2:14:17Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:14:17Speaker 04

  Any kind of real, official attempt at disclosure, is almost certainly gonna follow that model. I still maintain, and I've caught a lot of hell for this, and, you know, what can I say? But I do think that a lot of the people who are pushing this now, like people like Hal Podoff, I've known Hal Podoff for over 25 years. I admire and respect him, and I think he's, I think he's on the right side of this. That's my belief. People can say, you're, you know, you're naive, whatever. Lu Elizondo, I'll say the same thing. Chris Bremelin. These are establishment people in a way that I've never been. I'm not an establishment guy.

• 2:14:58Danny Jones?

  You're a journalist.

• 2:14:59Speaker 04

  I'm a historian, and I guess I do journalism. I don't know what I am. I'm a researcher.

• 2:15:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:15:05Speaker 04

  But I'm not, I've never been in that world. So I don't have, I don't think like they do. Like, I don't think... Like a guy like Elizondo, people complain that he harps on the national security thing, but he's Army Counterintelligence. What do you expect? This is what you pay him to do. Like, that's his job.

• 2:15:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:23Speaker 04

  His salary is to look for threats. How do you expect someone who's to do that not to do that? So, but I'm not, I don't look at it that way. So, I don't have a lot of their, you know, predilections to that. But I do think, like, there are people who have a, like, they're doing this in good faith. They're not, they're not like saying, "Ha ha, you know, we're gonna screw them over." I mean, everyone's got their angle. Everyone's always looking out for their self-interest. That's human nature. You can never not expect that. But, but there are definitely the secrets, the real hardcore secrecy group that I think they are not.

• 2:16:05Speaker 04

  They're, those guys do operate very effectively.

• 2:16:09Danny Jones?

  Do you have sort of like a checklist? Or do you have any sort of way to qualify people who come out in the public and start talking about this stuff to whether or not, or do you even think about it? Whether or not people are credible? Credible? Are they strategically putting out disinformation? Or some sort of a mixed bag?

• 2:16:36Speaker 04

  That's a very fair question. And I don't, I don't know if I can, like, I can't give you a mathematical equation to say, "This is, he fulfills all of these criteria." There are certain things.

• 2:16:47Danny Jones?

  Because there's people, there's people that could be, A, they could be just, well, I think it's, I think it's complicated. I think that there's people that are out there to make money and to like sell books and to do these kinds of things. But they could also be useful idiots to an extent.

• 2:17:00Speaker 04

  Hmm, yeah, yeah.

• 2:17:02Danny Jones?

  And have more or less people in the government trying to encourage them.

• 2:17:08Speaker 04

  Look, the best thing that you can, everything you said is totally on point. I would just say there are certain criteria that, that any responsible researcher should adhere to. So, when...

• 2:17:21Speaker 04

  First of all, you want to, you know, we went through a period, a decade or more ago, when you'd have all of these totally anonymous so-called whistleblowers that were out there. Or people who said, "I worked for this department or that department," but they provide no background where you can verify anything. Like, the first thing you need to know is, did this person actually work where they said they worked? Like, did they do that? Secondly, you know, you have to not jump to conclusions. Probably the first best thing you could do. And wait. You have to wait. Someone comes out with a claim, I would, I

• 2:18:03Speaker 04

  don't like knee-jerk reactions to whether pro or con, that go too far. Like, you want to take your time with these things. This is why, like, I'm not always really comfortable talking about every latest little story that happens.

• 2:18:19Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:18:20Speaker 04

  Even though I personally, I feel pressured, because like, I've been doing this so long, people want to know. What do you think, Richard?

• 2:18:25Danny Jones?

  It's really, I've noticed with this topic, it is hard to avoid talking about specific people in this community.

• 2:18:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. And you're like, and it's hard not to go chasing after the latest headline.

• 2:18:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:35Speaker 04

  Which is a problem, because ideally, what you want to do is, you want to stop and wait and go slow.

• 2:18:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:42Speaker 04

  So that other researchers, who know more about propulsion than you do, who know more about the history of aviation than you do, who know more about the history of this department than you do. Like, you want all these people to have a chance to chime in and provide their own perspective. And that just takes time, and it's nuanced. But no, I don't know if I have a sure-shot answer to these things. I remember when Bob Lazar, you know, was, he's still, I guess, a little controversial. He was much more controversial in the past, and...

• 2:19:15Speaker 04

  Part of it is like you, you go by, for me, because I wrote about him over 15 years ago in one of my books, and it was really difficult. Like, I didn't know. What do I think about Bob Lazar? I didn't know, back in 2007, 2008, when I'm finishing one of my books. And I ended up thinking, I believe this man. And I believed him because of the consistency of what he said over a number of years, the fact that I never felt he tried to go for a reach, or to try to go into an area that was different. And when he didn't know something, he would say so. Like, and then, and then, of course, I did get to meet a number of people who knew Lazar, you

• 2:19:56Speaker 04

  know, somewhat well, not perfectly, but, and I got to know George Knapp, also very well during those years. I have a tremendous regard for George. So I ended up, you know, this is how I made my decision on Bob Lazar. Fortunately for me, I-

• 2:20:12Danny Jones?

  What was your decision on-

• 2:20:13Speaker 04

  That he's legit. He's telling, he was telling the truth.

• 2:20:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it seems to me that, that he would be a great candidate for the CIA to choose to come there, because he's so easily discreditable, because of his background and some of the stuff that he was-

• 2:20:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, that's right.

• 2:20:27Danny Jones?

  Like the brothel and the other stuff?

• 2:20:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, he did security work for, I think, Nevada Brothel, I think it was at Security. He put in some cameras for them, or whatever he did.

• 2:20:38Danny Jones?

  And there was the weird thing about his wife, that happened, the first wife, I think, who, like, committed suicide-

• 2:20:43Speaker 04

  Thrommarital issues.

• 2:20:45Danny Jones?

  And he went and got married, like, while he was still married to her. There was a bunch of really, which was, it's such a clusterfuck of logic, when you're thinking about this stuff, because you gotta think, like-

• 2:20:55Speaker 04

  All of these things which are utterly irrelevant-

• 2:20:57Danny Jones?

  Right, exactly.

• 2:20:58Speaker 04

  To his story.

• 2:20:59Danny Jones?

  Exactly. So it's like, on one hand, why would they choose this guy to do this thing? But then, if you're looking at it from the reverse side of the lens, if you're some intelligence operation, trying to do something and protect yourself in case the cat gets out of the bag, you want people to question him, and discredit him, to think he's a liar.

• 2:21:18Speaker 04

  Possibly. But, but actually, if you hear his story, like, the way he tells it, he made the initiative to do all of this. So he, he was very unhappy with his employment situation at the time. He had met Edward Teller-

• 2:21:32Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:21:32Speaker 04

  The inventor of the fuse for the H-bomb, and I think the original Doctor Strangelove, I suspect.

• 2:21:40Speaker 04

  In Los Alamos in the early 1980s, I think 1982, and had a very good back and forth conversation because Lazar is a crazy, like he's a brilliant guy. He developed this jet car, right? And it made the cover of the Los Alamos local paper. And he's meeting with Teller and apparently Teller says, "Call me sometime, young man." You know, they had this kind of conversation. And a couple of years go by and Lazar is like, "I'm gonna..." And he, he was able to get the job with EG and G, which got him out to S4. And then the only reason that he went public is...

• 2:22:19Speaker 00

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 2:22:21Speaker 01

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 2:22:24Speaker 00

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from Star.

• 2:22:26Speaker 01

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 2:22:28Speaker 00

  Make them remember you.

• 2:22:31Speaker 01

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, made in PG-13.

• 2:22:34Speaker 04

  He, Bob Lazar, forgive me if I'm getting any of this wrong, but he started talking about it to John Lear and his friend Gene Huff, who was a real estate friend of his at the time.

• 2:22:47Speaker 04

  And they start going out to watch the displays of the craft. And I think the second time out they got caught. And he got into some serious trouble. And, you know, had that not happened, I don't know. I think he's talked about this. It's like, you know, maybe I, I should have stayed in the, stayed in the biz and I could have. But he would have been a lifer and we've never heard about him.

• 2:23:10Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:23:11Speaker 04

  So it's possible that he was selected for certain possibility. Yeah, you know, maybe. They, they made a psychologically profile him and think this is a guy that

• 2:23:22Speaker 04

  he doesn't seem to give a shit. He says what he says.

• 2:23:25Danny Jones?

  Did you watch the interview with him or the, it was, I think it was like a more of a debate or like a conversation with him and Stan Friedman?

• 2:23:36Speaker 04

  Uh, no, I knew Stanton Friedman very well. And I know exactly what Stanton. You know, uh, yeah, Stan never, ever, ever, ever believed Lazar's story. Called him a fraud. You know, when I first, uh, the first time I met Stan was in 2001, a long time ago. I was brand new. I was, I was, I still had nice black hair. Hope in my eyes. You could look carefully, you could see it. I had all of, I had big round glasses still. And, uh, I wasn't yet 40. And anyway, so I, I meet with Stan and he wanted, the first thing he wanted to know about me was what was my position on Lazar?

• 2:24:16Danny Jones?

  That's the litmus test.

• 2:24:17Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I was like, at that time, I hadn't even, I wasn't even really conversant with Lazar's story. I had just worked my ass off to get the story of UFOs up to 1973. That was the end of my first volume. And, uh, Lazar, you know, he was after that. And I was aware that I had to study him, but I hadn't yet really gotten on top. But Stan wanted to know, like, if I had the proper perspective on Lazar. And I actually, I've always, I mean, I really appreciate and respect Stan, always will. But I did not appreciate that. I felt that he was trying to pressure me in a way that I just don't like. Don't, don't tell me what I'm supposed to think on this. I'll come to my own damn decision. And even

• 2:24:59Speaker 04

  at that time, I was not inclined to dismiss Lazar's story, but I, I kept it off to the side until I felt that I had spent enough time to research it.

• 2:25:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:11Speaker 04

  And, um, yeah, at that time, this is still in the early 2000s and the late 90s. And, but a lot of Lazar's interviews were available transcripts that he had done in like 1990, 91, 92.

• 2:25:25Danny Jones?

  He stopped.

• 2:25:26Speaker 04

  I read them all.

• 2:25:27Danny Jones?

  He doesn't do anymore. He doesn't do any interviews anymore.

• 2:25:28Speaker 04

  No, but in the early 90s, he did quite a bit.

• 2:25:30Danny Jones?

  Why do you think, do you have any idea why he stopped? Or do you have any, uh, theories?

• 2:25:34Speaker 04

  It's hard for me to speak for him. Uh, the impression that one gets is that he just got sick and tired of the field and that there was, you know, it's like time to move on. It's like, I put my information out there. This is a crazy community, which it is and was. You know, we don't really do a good job at managing ourselves. It's impossible.

• 2:25:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And there's also, there's all these other whistleblowers that come out. And one of the most recent ones that really screwed my mind up was the guy who went on Jesse Michael's podcast, who was talking about kidnapping kids from Indonesia after an earthquake. And then

• 2:26:13Speaker 04

  Talking about Herrera?

• 2:26:15Danny Jones?

  So Herrera, this guy corroborated Herrera.

• 2:26:18Speaker 04

  Talking about Jake Barber?

• 2:26:18Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:26:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:26:20Danny Jones?

  His

• 2:26:21Speaker 04

  I did not hear this in Jesse Michael's great podcast.

• 2:26:25Danny Jones?

  It's the Herrera. It's basically the Herrera story, right? I mean, he had a different, he was had a different angle of it. He was a part of some different organization. But basically, he says that he went to one of Greer's public whistleblower conferences and he heard Herrera talk. So Jake Barber says that he went there as like a guy to catch whistleblowers, to prosecute them, right? And then he heard Herrera talk and he's like, oh, my God.

• 2:26:52Speaker 04

  He said, you basically have it, but you've got the wrong interpretation of it.

• 2:26:56Danny Jones?

  I think so.

• 2:26:57Speaker 04

  Like, it's not a human trafficking kind of thing.

• 2:26:59Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 2:27:00Speaker 04

  Think

• 2:27:00Danny Jones?

  He got a kind of, so yeah, so Jesse brought that up about the human trafficking. This guy, Jake Barber, got really upset when he called it human trafficking. So no, it wasn't human trafficking. We were capturing these people. We weren't capturing them, but we were bringing them back here and holding them to use them as psychic manipulators or psychic pilots for these UFOs. And he's like, they were, they were in distress. There was an earthquake and we were looking for children who were left-handed and homosexual because they have the highest psychic abilities. And it's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

• 2:27:33Speaker 04

  Well, hey, Leonardo da Vinci was one of those, wasn't he?

• 2:27:35Danny Jones?

  Yes, he was. And, and, you know, you said they were, they were keeping them and like feeding them certain things, like not giving them like, I don't know what they were doing. Restricting their diets somehow. I don't know if they're keeping them against their wills, but this guy is talking about some way, way out there sci-fi stranger things type stuff. And then it's like, How far, how far do we allow these people to take us?

• 2:27:58Speaker 04

  I personally have not formed a definite opinion on this one way. I just haven't. I mean, I'm aware of the story and we mentioned Stan Friedman. Stan had a great expression. He called something, he had a gray box, he said, "If I don't know if it's true or false, I put it in my gray box."

• 2:28:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:14Speaker 04

  And there's a lot of things to go in a gray box.

• 2:28:16Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 2:28:16Speaker 04

  And that, that's one of those things where, I mean, I would say, let's keep it open and let's find out if there's any other research I can verify to some extent. So we have, you have Herrera, then you have Jake Barber. So that's two points. That's not equal to proof, but it makes it a little more interesting and maybe we can, we can move on from there. But that's the problem with a lot of the elements in this field. You're dealing with, I mean, by its very nature, the UFO, let me just keep saying UFO because I'm so used to it. We say UAP, whatever.

• 2:28:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:50Speaker 04

  UFOs represent, I mean, we, we talk about it in our society often enough, but I am absolutely convinced we don't fully appreciate the depth of what it really means. I mean, look, imagine being across the table, not from me, but from one of them. And imagine they have an IQ of 500 and they're looking right at you. And they've got a telepathic ability. Maybe they're connected to a hive mind. So they know everything that you don't know and they can peer into your mind, into all the little avenues and recesses and like, and they don't laugh at your jokes.

• 2:29:31Danny Jones?

  They're gonna run for the hills.

• 2:29:32Speaker 04

  And they're, and even if they look like us, like that's intimidating. That there's no way that's not going to be intimidating to run into beings like that, that operate on a completely different level that we will not, we, we like to think that, well, yeah, we'll be like that one day. I don't think so. No, we're not going to be like that. I'm not and you're not. Maybe a thousand years from now, who knows?

• 2:29:58Danny Jones?

  Is there any story, is there any crazy story that's out there, right? The UFO, whether it be abduction or a sighting or anything that's like, there's no solid evidence one way or the other, that you know for a fact is true?

• 2:30:09Speaker 04

  Oh, wow. Prob- probably. Uh, I don't, I don't know. That's a great question. I wish, uh...

• 2:30:19Speaker 04

  I could have thought about this before. It's kind of tough, kind of tough on the spot. Look, a story that has no...

• 2:30:25Danny Jones?

  Whether it be like a, like a, I mean, other than the fact that, you know, obviously, we have like things like the Tic Tac, where, right, it's like a, we know that's, we've had people testify, and there's, there's the, the footage, like the Go Fast and the Fleer stuff, but it's kind of like, it's grainy footage, whatever, and it's kind of like, take it for what it is. It could be DARPA, it could be non-human intelligence, but like, say there's one of these whistleblowers that come out, like Michael Herrera, or Jake Barber, or, or Bob Lazar, right, one of these sort of stories, that you, that you know for a fact?

• 2:30:54Speaker 04

  Well, one, I mean, this isn't a UFO incident, but this was the Davis Wilson notes that I talked about a little earlier, and we talked about Eric Davis. I knew for a fact, when those things came out in 2019, that, that document, I knew it was real, and there were a lot of people at the time, who were saying it's fake, one person said it was a movie script, one person, a lot of people were just saying it's complete disinformation.

• 2:31:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:15Speaker 04

  And I, for a while there, I, I was actually really, really pissed off at the rest of the research community, because I was, for a little while, the only, the only person publicly to take a stand on it.

• 2:31:27Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:31:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, and everyone's like, throwing all kinds of shit at me, and, uh, that's fine, but I'm like, and there were a couple of people who privately had said to me, I know it's real too, I was shown this in whatever year, uh, but I can't, I can't go out, I can't, I can't say publicly. So I understood, that's fine. Um, but I, during that whole period, uh, there were some really, uh, some really snarky, nasty people that popped up out of nowhere, and then have since disappeared, like, who are you? Who are these people?

• 2:32:03Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 2:32:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. But anyway, I always knew, I always knew that would be vindicated. I just didn't know when. But now, then you get, you know, Jacques Vallée talked about it in, in his Forbidden Science, one of his volumes, in his diaries.

• 2:32:20Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 2:32:20Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, he mentioned knowledge of it at the time.

• 2:32:25Danny Jones?

  When, at, when, um, the astronaut, um, the astronaut died?

• 2:32:29Speaker 04

  When, no, prior, before this.

• 2:32:31Danny Jones?

  Before that.

• 2:32:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think in his volume that covers 2000 to 2009,

• 2:32:39Speaker 04

  when Davis actually interviewed Wilson during that period, a valet knew about this. And it's in there. Also, Eric Davis himself,

• 2:32:50Speaker 04

  short of saying, "I wrote them", several times, interviews that he did in 2019, 2020, and then just, just at the briefing, Elizondo, this is one good thing Elizondo did, he mentioned that he introduced Davis by way of those notes. And he, so he obviously knows it's real. Like, that whole crowd, they all know, it's all real. But there's been enough confirmation. And Davis himself, if you really listen to him, even in the briefing, it's quite obvious, he makes it clear, without saying, "He's got to be careful. These people..." Those notes themselves are not classified, but they talk about something that is highly classified. You know, they were private notes, so it's not like an official government document,

• 2:33:35Speaker 04

  but it is discussing something that is extremely sensitive.

• 2:33:38Danny Jones?

  Let's take this opportunity. I got to take a quick bathroom break. We'll jump right back in. We're back, folks, we're back. We were talking about, what were we talking about? Steve, do you remember what we're talking about? We want to talk more about the military aspect of this USO stuff.

• 2:33:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:33:56Danny Jones?

  Before we do that, one of my questions that I've been wanting to ask you is, do you, I'm sure you do know about this base, I talked about it with Jesse when he was on here, that there was a decommissioned,

• 2:34:10Danny Jones?

  I think it was a Navy base in the Bahamas, that was specifically in charge of tracking some of this stuff, this underwater UFO stuff. Do you remember what I'm talking about?

• 2:34:21Speaker 04

  Specifically, well, there was a, there's a system that was known as SOSUS when it was developed, the Sound Undersea Sonar

• 2:34:33Speaker 04

  System. And it was originally set up in that area, like, near the Bahamas. So I don't know if that's what he's referring to.

• 2:34:41Danny Jones?

  No, this was a base. Steve, if you pull up the podcast I did with Jesse, it's in the timestamps. I think it's its own, its own dedicated timestamp.

• 2:34:50Speaker 04

  I should know it. Just talking about it.

• 2:34:52Danny Jones?

  I think NASA was involved with it too.

• 2:34:54Speaker 04

  I could put it into my second or third volume.

• 2:34:57Danny Jones?

  Atlantic under, is that what you were talking about? The Atlantic?

• 2:34:59Speaker 04

  Oh, ATEC, yeah.

• 2:35:00Danny Jones?

  ATEC, ATEC, that's what it was.

• 2:35:02Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:35:05Danny Jones?

  So, apparently, what, what I, the way I understand it is they had some sort of, maybe it was like a, whoa, holy macaroni, bless you, underground, or not underground, underwater sort of base to track and detect things, something like this.

• 2:35:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, I am aware of that, and I do have a little, I've, I've learned a few things. Jesse may know more than I do, I don't know, I'll have to, have to hear what he has to say.

• 2:35:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:34Speaker 04

  One of the things that I tried to do with this study is, two things, what, so one is track the cases, and then the other is to try to understand the technological, military, political, and other related developments that went on at the same time. So, when I tried to structure this book, these books, I break them into chapters, and at the beginning of each chapter, I try to highlight like, what's developing here, what's, what's our technology, what's our politics, what's, what's relevant. And so, the development of a lot of the Navy systems goes, has gone into that section of, of each book, the chapters. And so, I remember, I wrote about Sosis, and I have, I have information on ATEC, it's very, it's related, it's all

• 2:36:18Speaker 04

  similar. It's basically their system for probing into the world under the water. So, off the top of my head, I don't really know what else to say about it, but it's, as that description there says, secretive testing of underwater vehicles and weapons and systems.

• 2:36:36Danny Jones?

  They called it the underwater Area 51.

• 2:36:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. One interesting thing about it is its location. So that's an extremely active area. One thing I did when I collected all of these cases on my little Google Earth, I put a little yellow pin for every, as accurately as I could, for every single USO case I could find. So that's why I can tell you Puerto Rico is a major hotspot. That's why I can tell you Florida is a major hotspot area, this whole region here. And so the fact that they've got something down there in the Bahamas, I just think is kind of interesting because that's a very, very active area for USOs in general.

• 2:37:11Danny Jones?

  One of the fascinating things he also told me was there is this, there's this secretive NRO character who was tied into NASA, who was a part of this base somehow.

• 2:37:25Speaker 04

  Well, there's an underwater version of the NRO. And it's N U R O.

• 2:37:32Danny Jones?

  Ooh.

• 2:37:33Speaker 04

  National Underwater, I forget the acronym. There's a brilliant UFO podcaster on YouTube, UAP Gerb.

• 2:37:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, I've heard about him.

• 2:37:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's a really smart guy. I've never talked with him, but if he's listening, I'm a big admirer of his.

• 2:37:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah, Jesse's had him on.

• 2:37:53Speaker 04

  Yes, highly, highly intelligent.

• 2:37:55Danny Jones?

  The National Underwater Reconnaissance Office.

• 2:37:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

• 2:37:58Danny Jones?

  Responsible for underwater reconnaissance and operates primarily in the waters of the Soviet Union.

• 2:38:02Speaker 04

  Started in 1969 and it's, there's a history there. One thing that they were, they had, they collected a tremendous amount of intelligence against the Soviet Union out of the Sea of Okostsk, off the coast of Kamchatka there. And they actually were able to place a device on a undersea cable there, like a listening device to kind of tap into Soviet communications. And this is back in like 1970, 71 when they did that, using the Halibut, I think that was the submersible they used.

• 2:38:40Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:38:40Speaker 04

  I think that was the one.

• 2:38:43Speaker 04

  Or maybe the Seville, I think the Halibut, I can't remember. But they were able to get very valuable intelligence for a good decade or more, based on what they were doing there. They're like, um, yeah, that's a, that's a whole story that we know a little bit about and we need to know much, much more. Because there's no question that they have got information that we just don't know and may never know. They're, they are the underwater NRO, they are incredibly secretive.

• 2:39:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I heard that there's like, probably over 20 intelligence, or like, three-letter agencies that we don't even know exist, that are within the government or the deep state.

• 2:39:27Speaker 04

  I'm sure.

• 2:39:28Danny Jones?

  That we'll probably, we'll probably never know about. Like, I never, I never would imagine, I never knew that the NRO had anything to do with UFOs.

• 2:39:34Speaker 04

  The, well, they're a good candidate for it, actually. But we didn't know the NRO existed until the 1990s. They existed in total secrecy for over 30 years.

• 2:39:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:44Speaker 04

  Uh, the NSA, you know, jokingly referred to as No Such Agency, was completely secret for more than its first decade.

• 2:39:53Danny Jones?

  Until the 70s it came out, right?

• 2:39:54Speaker 04

  Well, there was a book in 1964 called The Invisible Government, uh, that mentioned it. It was one book that, and, but no, I don't really think it was truly appreciated what the NSA was. And then it, it came out more in the 70s and, but it's still, actually, the state's quite secretive, you know? But that was a secret agency, its existence was classified for many years. And I remember I, I was friends with a congressional aide 15 plus years ago. I don't think he's alive anymore. But he, he told me, like, he's, he was interested in this whole subject and said, he was convinced that there was a very substantial, uh, agency involved in all of this

• 2:40:36Speaker 04

  that was still completely off, off the boards, no one knew about it.

• 2:40:40Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:40:42Speaker 04

  So I believe that there are.

• 2:40:45Speaker 04

  I mean, look, you know, I talked about we're having a pretend democracy a little while ago. I think that's right. So what we really have, what the United States is, of course, is a massive empire that's trying to dominate, has always tried to dominate the world, especially since World War II. And as a result, puts institutions and agencies in place that it doesn't think the public really needs to know about, even though we're supposedly supposed to have this open, transparent society.

• 2:41:13Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:41:13Speaker 04

  So I think there's all kinds of secrecy that's going on. I would not be shocked at all that there were a bunch of three-letter type agencies that we don't know about. Wouldn't surprise me.

• 2:41:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy stuff, man. It really is. And another thing that Catherine Fitz was telling me about is all the money that's going to these underground bunkers and underground, like, basically like, underground cities that are connected by highways all around the country. And she's saying that it's very possible that like trillions of dollars are going to these things.

• 2:41:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, I've spoken with her about this, in fact, off the record, and it's a real possibility. You know, I used to know there was a researcher by the name of Richard Souter, Dr. Richard Souter, and...

• 2:42:02Danny Jones?

  Is he the guy that was killed?

• 2:42:04Speaker 04

  No, not to my... I think he's still alive.

• 2:42:06Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:42:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. You might be thinking of...

• 2:42:11Danny Jones?

  I know there was a guy who talked about this stuff who was like mysteriously murdered or something.

• 2:42:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I know his case extremely well.

• 2:42:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:42:19Speaker 04

  And it'll come to me in a second.

• 2:42:20Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 2:42:20Speaker 04

  Why, my brain is spazzing out of the...

• 2:42:22Danny Jones?

  Souter.

• 2:42:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, so Richard Souter did a number of books in the 90s and the early 2000s on underground and also undersea potential bases. And, you know, a lot of his work was very good. So he looked into...

• 2:42:40Speaker 04

  The technologies that we know exist to go deep under the ground and to go deep under the ocean floor and that this is not an impossibility. We actually have the ability, all you really need is, you need the ability to dig and if you're gonna have a base permanently there, you've got to be able to extract oxygen from the water, but we've had that technology. That's what nuclear submarines are able to, they're not, they're not under the water with, you know, supplies of oxygen tanks. They have to extract oxygen out of the waters. I think it's called hydrolysis, whatever it is, and they're, they're able to do that. So there, at least theoretically, it seems that it would be possible, that you could

• 2:43:24Speaker 04

  have a, a whole array of underground and potentially undersea bases. It's theoretical. One thing that Richard found was, he ran into this guy who did illustrations for the US Navy back in the late 60s and he was asked to develop a series of illustrations portraying undersea bases and operations. Wow. And he, he gave those illustrations to Richard, who published them in a book, which back in those days, I was his publisher, so I know about it quite well. He, he's publishing it now, but it's called Hidden in Plain Sight. It's a pretty good book. Interesting. Yeah.

• 2:44:07Speaker 04

  So to your, your question, what Catherine was asking about, or talking about, these potential of under- Deep underground. Kind of a labyrinthine underground connection bases. It's totally possible. Is it, is it, you know, how true is it? That's a question. And, you know, speaking against that-

• 2:44:32Speaker 04

  We really would, I would like to see some more actual investigative journalism on it. That's, that's somewhat recent that can, that can support it. But I wouldn't doubt that it's, that is a possibility.

• 2:44:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:49Speaker 04

  Thinking of the other guy, Schneider, Phil Schneider, of course, might be the guy you're thinking of.

• 2:44:52Danny Jones?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:44:53Speaker 04

  Phil Schneider.

• 2:44:56Speaker 04

  That's a whole other thing we could, I'd rather not get into Phil Schneider, but it's an interesting case. And he does seem to have been murdered. I don't think he committed suicide.

• 2:45:06Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:45:07Speaker 04

  I think he was killed.

• 2:45:10Danny Jones?

  Another thing, so Catherine was also talking a lot about these breakaway civilizations and the fact that if there is some breakaway civilization, it's most likely going to be these bankers. These like top level bankers that control all the money.

• 2:45:26Speaker 04

  I think that's got to be true.

• 2:45:27Danny Jones?

  And these people were taking some of this money, using money to explore space.

• 2:45:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:45:31Danny Jones?

  And explore these really esoteric things.

• 2:45:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. She describes it really nicely.

• 2:45:36Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:37Speaker 04

  And she says, it's like, imagine there's an open window in the room. And the money's just flying out.

• 2:45:42Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 2:45:43Speaker 04

  So, uh, yeah, she says, it's like, we don't have a closed system. It's open and it's that's. So, uh, that could really be the case. I can't, you know, how that works financially. I think she could probably speak a lot more intelligently than I can about it. But the way she describes it seems quite, quite logical.

• 2:46:02Danny Jones?

  And then you have these characters like Elon Musk, who gets all these crazy contracts to launch these satellites into space and do all this work, gets tons of money from the intelligence community and the US government to do all of this work. And this is probably responsible for a lot of the money that he's, that he's made and kept his companies alive. That publicly will basically say that all this stuff's bullshit. There's no, no evidence of this stuff. If they're, if these aliens exist, they sure are subtle. Like, we don't see anything like this.

• 2:46:33Speaker 04

  I know.

• 2:46:34Danny Jones?

  So strange to me.

• 2:46:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, that's a really, uh, cause he's made this statement many times and hey, I'm not smarter than Elon Musk. That's definitely. I'm certainly not, and I don't know as many things as he knows, I have no doubt about that, he knows far more. So, it's hard for me to say, "Oh, he's full of it." But, for him, he's made this statement a number of times, that, you know, there's no, he's not seen any evidence that there's anything extraordinary out there, or he would have known about it. And, it's hard for me to know how to judge that. I mean, there is a tremendous amount of actually very good, space-based evidence for anomalous activity out in Earth orbit and beyond.

• 2:47:18Speaker 04

  There's all kinds, I mean, there was a, a young, a man named Jeff Challander, I knew Jeff, he's not alive anymore. He, he spent all of his time just pulling down NASA video footage from all the NASA space missions and just looking through them. And he wasn't just some wide-eyed, gullible believer, he was, I think, a very, a very astute, and he just kept finding all kinds of crazy things on these NASA missions. Objects out there that just did not make a lot of sense, objects doing apparent U-turns at one point, objects moving in angular motions in space. There are things that you can put out there to, to explain some of them, maybe like a

• 2:47:58Speaker 04

  booster rocket went off and ice crystals moved off at an angle. But, there's, there's a lot of these types of things that seem very bizarre. And they're not all American, you have had a lot of statements from American and Soviet cosmonauts, quite explicit, quite explicit about bizarre anomalies. There's a, the Popovich couple, Marina and Pavel Popovich of the Soviet Union, both highly regarded cosmonauts in that country, both spoke quite openly about these types of things in orbit that, that they were aware of or had seen. And quite a few Soviet missions where they talked about this and enough American

• 2:48:39Speaker 04

  missions as well that, you know, I don't think you can just dismiss that. So for Elon Musk to say, you know, to dismiss it all, which with a wave of the hand, as he seems to do, I, I find very curious.

• 2:48:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Have you heard of the, the guy who allegedly works for him, who works for the NRO, who, I think Diana Pasulka wrote about him in her first book, who has all these patents and like worked with this dude, Chris Bledsoe, and apparently like read him into all this super secret stuff, talked about all these crazy-

• 2:49:09Speaker 04

  Oh, this, the high level NASA individual, I think.

• 2:49:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah, there was two of them. There was one of them named Hal Povenmire, who apparently like mapped the moon. And then there was this other guy, I think his name was Tim, who-

• 2:49:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:49:21Danny Jones?

  Who apparently like said all kinds of stuff to Chris, like told him, like, he brought him to Cape Canaveral, which is like two and a half hours from here.

• 2:49:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:49:31Danny Jones?

  And said that when you go through the gates, just play your favorite song in your head, because these people are trying to read your mind. And-

• 2:49:37Speaker 04

  It's very interesting.

• 2:49:38Danny Jones?

  Very, very bizarre.

• 2:49:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, she, that's a good, that's an interesting book. And I don't know what to say about this. I mean, I've, I've spoken with Chris Bledsoe myself a few times, a number of times. And is that believable? Yeah, that's totally believable.

• 2:49:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:49:54Danny Jones?

  You can square with some of the stuff-

• 2:49:55Speaker 04

  I could believe, I could believe what she wrote. I don't, I can't say that I know, but I could believe it.

• 2:50:01Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I've had, I've been reading a lot of UFO researchers who have various takes on Chris Bledsoe. And quite a few of them have come out and, and made the assertion that he is like a, a modern day Paul Bennewitz.

• 2:50:21Speaker 04

  Well, one thing that I can say, I actually did an extended interview with Chris a couple of years ago. I think it might've been, it might've been the first extended interview that he did with anyone on, on social media. Could be.

• 2:50:38Danny Jones?

  When was it?

• 2:50:39Speaker 04

  2017, 2018.

• 2:50:41Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:50:42Speaker 04

  A while ago, I think.

• 2:50:45Speaker 04

  So a couple of things. First of all, Chris is a absolutely super decent human being.

• 2:50:51Danny Jones?

  His whole family.

• 2:50:52Speaker 04

  They're very good people. And his original sighting, the one from 2007, I don't think there's any question about it. There's, in fact, just recently, didn't a number of new people have come out to attest to that? Certainly, there's him, there's his son, and the other witnesses. I think all have come out. I don't think there's any reason to doubt that. And that's an extraordinary UFO.

• 2:51:13Danny Jones?

  The orb stuff?

• 2:51:15Speaker 04

  There was a craft that they definitely saw.

• 2:51:18Danny Jones?

  Oh, in the woods in North Carolina?

• 2:51:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:51:19Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:51:20Speaker 04

  So I have no reason to doubt that at all. And, and the subsequent activities that have had, that have happened on his property, which I have not been to, so you need to be upfront about that. You know, it's hard for me to say. I wasn't, I've not been there. I've heard different types of stories. But I think it's fair to say that there is some odd things that are going on there. Now, is it an op or not? I don't know.

• 2:51:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I tend to, I don't think he's making any of this stuff up. I feel like my, my gut told me when he was explaining all this stuff to me was that like, this is something that he really experienced. The thing that just raises my hairs is the fact that all these people from intelligence and NASA are like clinging to him.

• 2:52:10Speaker 04

  Well, there's a couple of ways to look at it. One is that it's an op, and they're, they're screwing with him. Alaa Bennewitz, okay. The other possibility is that they know that there's something to this.

• 2:52:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And they want to understand it better.

• 2:52:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. Like, that's, why would that not be a possibility? One of the things about, about Stephen Greer is that, you know, he develops these protocols. He calls them the CE5 protocols. Okay, so people have different opinions on this, but there's no question in my mind that there is a consciousness element to this phenomenon. That's real. And There is no question as well that Greer did get interest from the national security state, I think partly because of this. You know, one of the things he talked about, and it's true, as far as I can see, it's absolutely true, is he met with a gentleman named John Peterson of the Arlington Institute, who was for many years on the shortlist of, you

• 2:53:05Speaker 04

  know, DOD secretaries and things like that. He was one, but he's up there. And also the then director of the CIA, James Woolsey, and their wives, all of their power players. Yeah, they went to some dinner together. Yeah, they had dinner, and this is, I think, in the late 90s, I think. Yeah. No, early 90s, because Woolsey was director of CIA in the early 90s, you know, under Clinton. Yeah. So, why would they do that? I mean, you know, in the early 90s, David Greer was not... Is there any proof that he had that meeting? Yes, there is, because the argument is over what it constituted. Greer always called it a briefing. Yeah.

• 2:53:49Speaker 04

  And they wrote, they issued a letter. I'm sure I have it somewhere, it's searchable, it's gotta be searchable, where they just said, "This was not a briefing, this was an informal, like a dinner," you know, and they were clearly furious that he talked about it. Wow. They were clearly very unhappy about that. So I think, yeah, he did meet with them, and then you have to ask yourself, you know, I mean, Greer can talk about this much more forthrightly than I can, but he wasn't famous at that time. Like, who knew him? You know, he was this guy who had just gotten into the UFO field. Yeah. Medical doctor.

• 2:54:32Speaker 04

  Talking about crop circles in England in the early 90s, he did a little bit of that, and he gets this interest from these very high-level people. Why?

• 2:54:42Danny Jones?

  I had a gentleman on here a couple of weeks ago who brought me a newspaper article that he had, he paid for some subscription to some website that could pull up PDFs of like ancient news articles. And he was basically making the case that essentially what the news article showed was the description of Greer, the publishing in the newspaper of Greer, how he got married, when he got married to his wife and all this stuff. And it was like a little blur in the newspaper, how he got married at the Baha Institute in Haifa.

• 2:55:17Danny Jones?

  And I've never heard him talk about any of this stuff. And this was like in the, I think it was in the seventies or late seventies, maybe. And this guy was making the case and that according, because that he was in Haifa, working in Haifa, got married there and all this stuff, that now he's essentially Mossad.

• 2:55:34Speaker 04

  Well, first of all, I would never comment on some aspect of a person's life like that. I have no, no understanding of it. And it's, it is not for me to get involved in anything like that. I, if even if I had an opinion on it, I would not offer it publicly, but I don't think I even have an opinion on that. Yeah. So I'm just gonna pass.

• 2:55:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's just interesting that people can come up with these, these crazy theories that, you know, who knows if they have legs or not. But like, again, this just, this is part of the territory. When you're trying to navigate these things in the public and these people that come out and make these extraordinary claims and, you know, ignore certain things. And they, they, they talk very confidently about things and make extraordinary claims, but then, you know, leave certain things out that may not be foundational or may not support their story. You know, it's just part of this, I feel like it's part of the things that you have to sort of put out there and question

• 2:56:36Danny Jones?

  when you're put in the place of, of trying to evaluate whether these people are legitimate or not.

• 2:56:40Speaker 04

  Well, one thing that I always have to remind myself of is that this whole subject. You know, I've kind of referred, alluded to this a few times in this conversation with you, but it's of profound significance. And so that means there are people who have a stake on the pro side and on the, on the con side that want to keep this where it is because it is, it's highly disruptive. And so there's going to be intelligence community interaction with this subject. That is a fact. There is way too much at stake. And those individuals will use their assets in establishment media. They will use their assets in academia when appropriate. They will use their assets wherever they can,

• 2:57:24Speaker 04

  within the community itself, if need be. And there's always been very high paranoia within the UFO community. These conversations happen frequently enough. It's like, who do you think's working for?

• 2:57:37Danny Jones?

  Everyone's an op.

• 2:57:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it comes up frequently and, or it's come up frequently enough, I suppose I can say. And A, I can just say to you very honestly, I do not know.

• 2:57:49Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:57:50Speaker 04

  I cannot confirm anyone specifically that I can absolutely say they're working for the government or the intel community. I've had suspicions. I continue to have suspicions and I, I'm not going to mention who those, I think those people are. There's, there's no win for me in that.

• 2:58:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:09Speaker 04

  I'm not going to get into that, but.

• 2:58:10Danny Jones?

  Well, if anyone wins, it's the intelligence agencies because, because I mean, according to the YouTube comments, I'm an op. And then I question, I question myself.

• 2:58:17Speaker 04

  I've been called it many times. I've been called Mossad. Seriously, do you know? Yeah, I don't know what to say about things like that. So I've been.

• 2:58:27Danny Jones?

  Well, I think it works. I think, like I said, I think it works in the, if there is some sort of a general opportunity in the intelligence community to cover up secrets. The fact that everyone on social media thinks everyone is working for an intelligence agency is a benefit to them.

• 2:58:48Speaker 04

  Absolutely. It's, it's a big, it's a really big problem. Let's, let's talk about this for a bit, if you don't mind. So I.

• 2:58:57Speaker 04

  You know, I got into this whole field in the 90s when conspiracy theories were not really that much done. Yeah. You know, they were a little, there were people out there. I mean, Jim Mars had already written his great book, Crossfire, The Plot to Kill Kennedy. I was good friends with Jim Mars. I loved Jim Mars. He was a great man. But anyway, like, the 90s were, it was, you were kind of out there. And we were developing as a society, a much more, like, critical view. And then, you know, for me, 9/11 was what put me over the top, by the way.

• 2:59:38Speaker 04

  9/11 put me, and I think a lot of people, full-on in government as actively lying about basically every single thing. Like, I went there, and I'm still there. But the problem is, when you think that everything is an op, so that's a bit of a problem for me, too. Like, I said earlier, like, I almost wrote a book on false flags and the history of it. Right. There are lots of ops, like, they happen. But when you reflexively, I'm gonna be careful how I say this, conclude that every single thing coming at you is, like, someone's motivated Yes.

• 3:00:23Speaker 04

  For some reason, and that's a real problem, because, think about what that does if you were to act like that in your personal life. Like, if your friend has something to say to you, and you're not listening to what your friend's saying, instead you're thinking, "What's his motivation for telling me that?" Totally. That's a great way to destroy every friendship you've ever had, every relationship you've ever had, every society that's ever existed. It's a really dangerous solvent for the certain amount of social cohesion we have to have. You have to have, there's gotta be a way to have some trust in things that come at you. But the problem that we have is, we have good reason not to trust a lot, like, we have really good reason.

• 3:01:05Speaker 04

  So, but, I do think what we've fallen into is, I call it a kind of a postmodern trap, which is... When someone makes a claim about anything, frequently from a lot of people, the first thing you'll hear is, "Oh, that person worked for whatever agency."

• 3:01:21Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:01:22Speaker 04

  They've got, they have an agenda. That person believes this other thing in politics that I also don't agree with, and therefore, I'm not going to subscribe to what they have to say here. And so, in other words, we're doing identity politics, whether we've realized it or not. We're not listening, the one thing we're not doing is, is hearing their message. We're not actually listening to their information, or we're not evaluating the information. We're judging the person, because we think they're an op, and they work for this organization here. And the fact is, when you look at the UFO knowledge sphere over many years, go back to 1950s, this is a period I've studied a lot.

• 3:02:01Speaker 04

  There were a lot of military insiders, in the 1950s, who were totally of the belief that we need to get information on this subject out there, and they put themselves out there. So because they were working for the Army or the Navy, am I supposed to then say, "Oh, well, they've got some kind of, they've got an agenda to prove." That's a bad place to be, because, you know, it prevents you from actually studying their information. And the fact is that there are people from every part of the spectrum here in this field that have something to say. And it's a real, we're putting ourselves at a great disadvantage if we, if we're playing

• 3:02:42Speaker 04

  identity politics with every single person out there, and we're judging them, are they on the good side or the bad side? That's, that's not good, because there's information coming in from a lot of different places, it seems to me.

• 3:02:55Danny Jones?

  Yes, which is why I appreciate when people like you, who have a pragmatic view of all of this stuff, and are able to take the information from all of these cases, and sort of see where they all fit together, and maybe where they don't, and provide that to people in a balanced way. I think that's, that's, that's super valuable and rare.

• 3:03:13Speaker 04

  I never thought of, when I was much younger, I didn't think of myself as a pragmatist by nature. I didn't really know that, but over the years, I've seen that, and, and I believe in that. I believe in realism, when it comes to global politics, or when it comes to national things. I try to be what I consider to be realistic, rather than dogmatic and ideologically driven. I've got my own beliefs about all kinds of things, but I also realize... That the world is, you know, I had a, I grew up with a very liberal mother and a pretty conservative father. And so that was kind of good because I was able to appreciate

• 3:03:53Speaker 04

  two very radically different worldviews that each of my parents had and to understand where they were coming from and to respect where they were coming from, which I do to this day. And that's, that was good for me. And I think that when, you know, as, as we're in the world today, I, I just, I take it as a given that there's always going to be people, people out there who don't see the world the way I do. And what am I supposed to like condemn them and just say, well, you're, you're morally suspect because you have a different perspective on the world than I do. That's kind of ridiculous. But yeah, we do it. We do it all the time. People on the right and the left, they all do it.

• 3:04:35Speaker 04

  And it's, it's very unfortunate. We get all apocalyptic about things. And we live in very dangerous times in many ways. I'm not going to deny that. Very dangerous on many levels. But the fact is that it is, is not for me to, to write someone off just because they see the world differently than I do.

• 3:04:57Danny Jones?

  Right. Well, Richard, that was three hours.

• 3:05:01Speaker 04

  You're kidding?

• 3:05:01Danny Jones?

  That was fantastic.

• 3:05:02Speaker 04

  A lot of fun. I enjoyed this.

• 3:05:05Danny Jones?

  Thank you. Tell people where they can find your new book on USOs and anything else you're doing.

• 3:05:11Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, I have my book on USOs. It's sold on Amazon and it's in ebook, paperback and hardcover. And this week I expect the audiobook finally to be out. It's been submitted. I'm just waiting for Amazon to approve it. So that's, that's nice. I have a website called RichardAllenMembers.com. And there's a paywall, but there's a lot of free stuff there. People can go take a look at it. There's a lot of information there. Great community. I can't speak highly enough about the members of the site. And I got my own YouTube channel. It's just called Richard Owen Intelligent Disclosure. People can...

• 3:05:47Danny Jones?

  There we go. Look at that.

• 3:05:50Danny Jones?

  JFK and UFOs. Oh, that's something we didn't go into.

• 3:05:54Speaker 04

  Wow, that's a really wonderful. I had a fantastic guest for that.

• 3:05:58Danny Jones?

  Going back to what we were just saying about how everyone has their own belief system surrounding everything. I've noticed that everyone has their own flavor of the JFK assassination.

• 3:06:10Speaker 04

  Well, he was definitely killed in a conspiracy, in my opinion.

• 3:06:13Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 3:06:14Speaker 04

  I would definitely lay the most of it at the CIA and the deep state. I think Kennedy's assassination, I liken it to Agatha Christie's murder on the Orient Express. And plot spoiler, everyone did it in that book.

• 3:06:31Danny Jones?

  Everyone did.

• 3:06:32Speaker 04

  Everyone had a motive to kill this guy. And that's JFK. He was that his biggest problem, I feel, is that he really believed he was the president who could run things. And he ran into a bureaucracy that saw him as a threat on multiple levels. So you had Federal Reserve, you had Vietnam, you had UFOs are part of that. That's not

• 3:06:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:06:52Speaker 04

  a trivial part of it.

• 3:06:53Danny Jones?

  Not the whole thing, though.

• 3:06:54Speaker 04

  No, no, I think the the nuclear issue, you know, he was talking about nuclear disarmament with the with the Soviet.

• 3:07:00Danny Jones?

  Yep.

• 3:07:01Speaker 04

  So what he was showing, and then Cuba, that whole thing.

• 3:07:03Danny Jones?

  Yep.

• 3:07:04Speaker 04

  And shutting down Operation Mongoose, all of this. So JFK showed that he was he was an enemy on many fronts. He had said famously, he wanted to scatter the CIA to the winds. And he tried, you know, he fired Allen Bellis and Bissell and but he yeah, they knew he was a real problem. He was a serious problem. And, you know, what was the ultimate motivation? I think the ultimate motivation was, they were like, no way we're gonna let this guy run the country for another month, because he is, he is a danger on too many levels.

• 3:07:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:07:40Speaker 04

  That's what they thought. Here's my book.

• 3:07:42Danny Jones?

  I totally agree. There we go. The History of USOs: Unidentified Submerged Objects, Volume One, with Two and Three to Come.

• 3:07:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, they'll be out this year. All of the cases, I've written them all. I'm happy with how they read. I keep adding new cases, but basically I have to be done. And what is required is just breaking them into chapters and doing those little chapter introductions that I was telling you about.

• 3:08:05Danny Jones?

  Amazing.

• 3:08:05Speaker 04

  So it's, it'll be out.

• 3:08:07Danny Jones?

  Well, thanks again. I really appreciate your time.

• 3:08:09Speaker 04

  My pleasure. Thank you.

• 3:08:10Danny Jones?

  We have some Patreon questions for our beautiful Patreon subscribers. So we'll do that separately from the podcast. We'll rip through a couple of these questions if you don't mind.

• 3:08:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, gladly.

• 3:08:19Danny Jones?

  But that's all for the podcast, so thanks again.

• 3:08:21Speaker 04

  It was my pleasure.

• 3:08:21Danny Jones?

  Good night, folks.