229.  “I’m almost 50 and have nothing to show for my life”

Christine (47) and Thad (57) have been together for more than six years, but instead of building wealth, they’re buried under nearly $340,000 of debt. Christine, the self-appointed “CFO,” is exhausted from tracking every bill, while Thad avoids the details and spends freely. Their conflicting money mindsets (Christine craving stability, Thad living for the moment) have stalled their big dreams like buying a home or taking Rich Life vacations that Christine longs for. With almost no savings and retirement looming, Christine fears she’s approaching 50 with nothing to show for her hard work, while Thad insists a single plan will solve everything. Can Ramit help them break the cycle of avoidance and control, align their priorities, and finally start acting like teammates? In this episode we uncover: • Why Christine feels she’s approaching 50 with “nothing to show” for her life • Thad’s $17,000 student loan that ballooned up to $125,000 • How Christine became the household “CFO” while Thad continues to avoid responsibility • Their real numbers—and why Christine feels so stressed • Christine’s frustration over micromanaging bills • Thad’s upbringing in poverty • The invisible power of shame and fear, and why they can’t see what’s right in front of them financially • Christine’s childhood lessons from parents who bought an unaffordable home • Thad’s stark admission: if nothing changes, he’ll be homeless Chapters: (00:00:00) When a worrier and an avoider meet… (00:02:59) “We have a plan… don’t we?” (00:15:52) “Where is all the money going?” (00:19:54) Ramit breaks down their numbers (00:33:46) “I never expected to live past 30” (00:48:30) “I wish my dad was able to say no” (00:56:33) “I don’t believe he’ll follow through” (01:05:11) “We need to be playing way bigger” (01:22:38) “I don’t feel like I have the power” (01:36:54) Where are they now? Christine and Thad’s follow-ups This episode is brought to you by: Doola | Go to https://doola.com.ramit and use code RAMIT for 10% off LLC formation and bookkeeping. Gelt | Book a tax consultation with Gelt at https://joingelt.com/ramit. As a member of my community, you can skip the waitlist. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to https://masterclass.com/ramit Netsuite | Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at https://netsuite.com/ramit Connect with Ramit • Get my new book, Money For Couples • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ramit Sethi?

  Are you feeling stuck with your money? Have you told yourself, "I need to figure it out." But you haven't really done it? I understand that not everyone is going to sit down and read multiple books about money. I get that. That is why I created Rich Life: The Road to 100K. This is a step-by-step program that shows you how to build a money system that works. Like figuring out the date that you're going to have $100,000 invested, how to automate your money, and how to cut through the noise. Plus, you will get access to weekly live events and a community of like-minded people, plus a library of my best materials. This is the program that will finally help you get on track with your money,

• 0:43Ramit Sethi?

  and you can join today at iwt.com/100k. When I was thinking about quitting my last job to do "I Will Teach You to Be Rich" full-time, I created a rule for myself. I couldn't go full-time with IWT until it earned at least as much as my monthly salary for three months in a row. And this really helped me take my business seriously. Now, for new business owners, I recommend something similar. And as you are getting set up, I also recommend keeping things simple by using Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, including brands like Mattel and Jimm Shark.

• 1:28Ramit Sethi?

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• 2:02Ramit Sethi?

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• 2:10Speaker 01

  I worry about our lack of retirement accounts and I worry about our lack of savings. Since my savings account is at $101, we know I'm not saving.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  I owe $125,000 to student loans on $17,000 principal. The rest is interest. We have been planning stuff, we're making a plan.

• 2:29Ramit Sethi?

  Thad, you don't have a plan.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  I'm 57 years old and only now on this point getting my finances and my stuff in order in life.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  I ask him the same thing, why he gets cash out? And I think it's so he can hide his spending so that it can't be tracked.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Every dollar I have goes to this household, except for the money that I wasted.

• 2:47Ramit Sethi?

  This is not fair. You're not even married.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  When will I be 50 years old in three years? And it feels like I have nothing to show for my whole life.

• 2:54Ramit Sethi?

  Is it too late? What if you didn't start saving or investing when you were in your twenties or thirties? Today, we're about to get a look into this pressing question for tens of millions of Americans. In today's episode, I speak with Christine and Thad. She's 47, he's 57, and they do not have nearly enough money saved or invested to retire on time. Each have six-figure loans, which creates a toxic mix of frustration and complacency and even hopelessness. They're also not married despite being together for over six years, largely because they're afraid marriage would impact their debt payments. Watch as we unpeel layers of psychological fascinations,

• 3:36Ramit Sethi?

  especially when we see how their psychology affects their numbers. I'm about to preview a few items from Christine and Thad's Conscious Spending Plan, which breaks down their net worth, income, and where they spend their money. You can download and create your own Conscious Spending Plan, or CSP, at IWT.com/csp. Assets: $0. Investments: $136,496. Savings: $2,612. Debt: $339,000. For a total net worth of negative $190,000. $99,000. Their combined income is $167,625.

• 4:18Ramit Sethi?

  Now, this CSP is going to reveal a lot more in the episode, but first, tell me in the comments, when did you start first managing your money in a serious way? What age? Why did you start then? And if you haven't yet started, that's okay, too. I want to hear from you. Okay, now, let's get into it with Christine and Thad. I want to give a shout out to our new Spotify viewers and listeners, where we recently started releasing each Spotify episode in video format. And I love seeing all of our new viewers coming in and watching these episodes with real people, sharing real numbers from behind closed doors. Big thank you to Spotify for your partnership. If you already listen on Spotify, click over to video.

• 5:02Ramit Sethi?

  There is nothing like catching these subtle moments and facial expressions that you can't catch with audio alone. I understand you've been together for over six years. You've been living together for most of that time, and you have spent that entire time in debt.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Yes, because I've spent my entire life in debt.

• 5:22Ramit Sethi?

  Got it.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  But also, my fixed costs are very high, so there isn't also a whole lot I can do about it. My half of the, you know, just living expenses are most of my paycheck.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Since we've been together, I don't think we've incurred any debt. We have both brought debt into the relationship through, you know, our big debts. But once we started getting together and once we moved in together, right? Then, at that point, we were matching bill for bill. Anything over that, I didn't save.

• 5:50Ramit Sethi?

  What do you mean? You were matching? What does that mean?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  So like when we moved in together, we would split the rent. I would pay my half, she'd pay her half, you know, when we first started getting together. There was employment issues, so we was like, one person has made more than the other a little bit, and it's gone back and forth, but it's also gone up over that course of time. So over that course of time, we've been working together on the finances, and we really haven't acquired much, any debt in the six years.

• 6:14Ramit Sethi?

  Has it gotten better or worse in six years?

• 6:16Speaker 02

  It's gotten better.

• 6:18Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's good. Meaning you've paid off debt?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Well, I think yes and no. So we're responsible for like our own debts right now. So I do have credit card debt and I paid it down, but it's not going fast. But like, for example, we have actually accumulated some debt, but it's all been in the service of like paying down previous debts. I'm just gonna throw you under the bus, Thad. He got a master's degree and didn't finish paying the last bit of his tuition, but we needed his transcript and they wouldn't release it without paying the last bit of tuition, which was like $3,500 or something crazy. So we had to get a personal loan from our credit union in order to pay it, because who has $3,500 just laying around?

• 7:03Ramit Sethi?

  Has what the two of you have been doing with money been working?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:10Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, cuz I'm confused because we've only been talking a few minutes and I have gotten multiple contradictory answers. Do you have debt? Yeah, we haven't, well, we haven't accumulated any, but actually we have accumulated some.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:24Ramit Sethi?

  Is it getting better? It's getting better, but it's also getting worse.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:29Ramit Sethi?

  I'm wondering what the pattern of your answers reveals.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Well, I think that Thad often likes to put a very positive spin on things.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  I guess, yes, I do, I do. I can tell you the big element that, you know, contributed it. Like, I'll just figure it out myself, whatever we need. So that's sort of...

• 7:48Speaker 01

  He's an avoider.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Avoider. Or, yeah, like try to do it myself and then, you know.

• 7:53Ramit Sethi?

  But Thad, you're 57 years old. I mean, I feel like if it was gonna work, it would've worked.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  I feel that like I understand the problem. I think that I'm doing the best that I can. I'm addressing every issue of the problem.

• 8:06Ramit Sethi?

  What does that mean specifically?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Like, we're doing everything that we should be doing.

• 8:11Ramit Sethi?

  But you're do- you're doing it right now, Thad. You're, you're, you're presenting a positive spin. Like, oh, it's been good for the last few years.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  No, it's still crap. They're still bad, but like I'm learning. I've learned, you know, as where, you know, like I open mail now as before. I never opened mail. So that's, that's a step. You know, that's a step up, you know? So we talk about this a lot, our dynamic between that, you know? Um, I feel that I attempt to, I'm trying, right? I'm willing.

• 8:39Ramit Sethi?

  You're not, you're not trying right now in this very answer.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 8:46Ramit Sethi?

  I'm getting lost. You guys get lost when you talk about money, right? Is that?

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  That's what I'm trying to tell you. We don't really have a fight about money because mostly I'm just managing it all and I'm saying, do this, and it's not getting done.

• 8:58Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, let's talk about that.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's our big fight right there. You know, like, we talk about money on Sundays. We talk about money a lot. We're doing it now. Like, right now, we're talking about money. Right? We are always talking about money and I'm there. So, you know, and your opinion is we are...

• 9:14Speaker 01

  We are really not talking about money that much. And like, we are set to have reoccurring conversations on Sundays during our set aside date time, and it doesn't happen on most Sundays. I guess it's so frustrating because the money is like what we need to deal with.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  We can't be fighting about the stuff that we can't control. And we are talking about it, and we are doing it together.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Except that we can control these things and we're just not because we're not talking about them.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  But we happen to be talking about it right now. We're talking about it right now.

• 9:49Ramit Sethi?

  Can we do this? I'm actually gonna, I'm gonna flip the script. You've clearly thought about it, so I'm actually gonna turn it over to you.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Oh, geez.

• 9:57Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think is the problem? And what do you think is the solution?

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm a worrier and he's an avoider. And so I worry a lot about our finances and I worry about our lack of retirement accounts and I worry about our lack of savings. And he is an avoider, although, I mean, sure that what he's saying, he is getting better, but it still is like, why is this mail unopened? Recently, a medical bill sat on our counter for fifty dollars, sat there for, I don't even know how long, two weeks or something, until it got past due. And only then was like, look, we just pay it. And he logged in and it was paid in three seconds flat, you know? And I was just so irritated. That's like a really common, I think, example of how it goes.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Then our normal conversation comes up on Sunday and he'll say, well, we already talked about money during the week. We've already had our conversation.

• 10:51Ramit Sethi?

  I asked you to describe the problem and then tell me what you think the solution is.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Oh, the solution?

• 10:57Ramit Sethi?

  Seems you got a bit lost in the story because we didn't get to the solution. What do you notice about my question and your response?

• 11:06Speaker 01

  That I'm both frustrated and I don't know the solution?

• 11:10Ramit Sethi?

  Do you think your problem is a fifty dollar medical bill on the counter?

• 11:14Speaker 03

  No, I don't.

• 11:16Ramit Sethi?

  I think that's probably a symptom of something much larger.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 11:20Ramit Sethi?

  I noticed that you are, um.

• 11:23Speaker 03

  A crier? I know.

• 11:25Ramit Sethi?

  You're crying now. Why is that?

• 11:27Speaker 03

  Because I just find it so frustrating.

• 11:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What part do you find frustrating?

• 11:31Speaker 03

  I'm gonna be fifty years old in three years and it feels like I have nothing to show for my whole life.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  I can't get myself together enough and neither can that. It feels like we just keep doing the same thing where I have to micromanage all of our finances.

• 11:48Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  And that part can be really frustrating because I'm trying to get my own stuff together too. I'm trying to pay down my debt so that we can save more and I'm trying to, you know, put some extra money aside and stuff, but it's not possible. And then I have to micromanage his finances on top of mine and that can be very challenging.

• 12:07Ramit Sethi?

  Sounds like a lot on your shoulders. Can I suggest a different approach?

• 12:11Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 12:12Ramit Sethi?

  You jumping in to solve the problems is actually part of the problem.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 12:20Ramit Sethi?

  And you're even doing it with me.

• 12:22Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  When I mentioned that she wants to control things, it turned into a fight. She want to, or not admit, but she feels like she doesn't control. So we'll have a big fight if I'm saying, if I mention control or.

• 12:35Ramit Sethi?

  That I'll, I'll stipulate and I, I will be willing to go out on a limb that Christine will agree that maybe she sometimes has the need to be in control. Christine, would you agree with that?

• 12:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:47Ramit Sethi?

  When we feel out of control, we will often try to control the smallest things to give us a sense of control in an otherwise uncontrollable world. Christine, how is this striking you?

• 12:59Speaker 03

  It gets what Dad says all the time. I just try to control things.

• 13:04Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 13:06Ramit Sethi?

  Take your time. I want to jump in here because what Christine is feeling is a massive clue. Have you noticed how she communicates? It's frantic and I would describe it as controlling. Even here on this show, she seems to try to take over the room. Now, that might seem odd until you realize what this moment means for my guests. To get here, they've gone through months of prep, applications, calls, filling out a CSP, AV checks, all kinds of stuff. They've carved out times from their lives. So for them, this is not just a casual Zoom call. To a lot of guests, they see this as their one shot. So when someone like Christine tries to steer the entire conversation, it's not random.

• 13:51Ramit Sethi?

  It's kind of like walking into a surgeon's office and then telling them how to operate. So I flipped it. I handed her the reins. Okay, Christine, you tell me what the problem is and then tell me what the solution is. And did you see what happened? She floundered. She brought up an unpaid bill, then jumped straight to, "I'm gonna be 50 and have nothing to show for my life." That's not a very satisfying answer, especially from someone who wanted to run this conversation. And I'm reminded of this classic psychology experiment called the invisible gorilla test. People were shown a video of players passing a basketball and asked to count how many times the ball is passed. Now, while they are watching these players pass the ball, a person in a gorilla suit

• 14:35Ramit Sethi?

  walks directly through the entire scene. But half of the people watching this never even noticed the gorilla. Their attention is so locked in that they miss what is obviously in front of their face, and that's what's happening here. She's so caught up in her story, her fear, her need for control, that I'm not sure she can see what's right in front of her. And this happens to a lot of us, which is why it is so helpful to get a third party to talk to. If you find yourself stuck, repeating the same painful story over and over, ask yourself a few questions. If this were happening to someone else, what would I say? When I react the way that I've been reacting for so long, am I actually solving anything? Am I trying to control this outcome? Why?

• 15:20Ramit Sethi?

  And finally, what am I not seeing? Everyone has an invisible gorilla in our lives. Sometimes it takes someone else to point it out. But Thad, what about you? The problem is what in one sentence?

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Communication.

• 15:35Ramit Sethi?

  What's the solution?

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Clear communication, you know?

• 15:39Ramit Sethi?

  Why does she have to ask you to pay the bills, your own bills?

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Well, those are my poor life skills. I'm fifty seven years old and only now on this point, getting my finances and my stuff in order in life.

• 15:52Ramit Sethi?

  Can I ask Thad the question again? What is the problem and what is the solution in two sentences, please?

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Uh, the problem is lack of clear communication between the two of us and trust in each other.

• 16:05Ramit Sethi?

  How do we do it?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  By going on a podcast and learning how to do it. I mean, you know, like what I'm responsive to the things that we, you know, come up with a plan and, and enacting them. Paying, you know, not just paying bills, but you know,

• 16:21Speaker 02

  you know?

• 16:22Ramit Sethi?

  No.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  I, I think I'm doing this stuff. Like what am I not doing that's I need to do better, you know, like?

• 16:28Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. So that's, that's a problem.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:31Ramit Sethi?

  Thad thinks he's doing everything that he can. Christine, do you agree or disagree with that?

• 16:38Speaker 01

  I disagree.

• 16:39Ramit Sethi?

  How does that strike both of you that you may not even understand the problem, much less the solution?

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Well, I do think that is the problem.

• 16:49Ramit Sethi?

  That you don't understand the problem?

• 16:51Speaker 01

  I guess, yes.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Like we have been working together lock, stock and barrel as far as what our objectives are and how we achieve those. Like we have been planning stuff and we're making a plan going forward.

• 17:05Ramit Sethi?

  According to you, you have a plan and it's working.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Christina, you think we have a plan and it's working, albeit not fast enough.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  I think we have a loose plan, but we have no clear idea how to get there and we're clearly not there.

• 17:18Ramit Sethi?

  What about the debt?

• 17:19Speaker 02

  The only debt that I have is my student loans.

• 17:24Ramit Sethi?

  What's the debt payoff date?

• 17:25Speaker 02

  I mean, never. I mean, who knows? That's what we're here for.

• 17:28Ramit Sethi?

  And what about retirement? How much do you need for retirement?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  I have nothing in retirement.

• 17:33Ramit Sethi?

  How much do you need for retirement?

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Oh, I have no idea.

• 17:36Ramit Sethi?

  How about, how much do you need for an emergency fund?

• 17:39Speaker 02

  We talked about having like four hundred dollars minimum right? So we can get like a rug or this or that or things like that.

• 17:47Ramit Sethi?

  No, that's not an emergency fund. Thad, you don't have a plan. Guys, I really want to help you, but it's going to be very difficult if you're not ready to learn. You obviously have some serious financial challenges because you're in your 50s, 40s and 50s, as you put it, broke, don't know anything about how much you need for retirement. And I want to help, but I can't help unless you are willing to accept the help. Trust me, you do not just need a budget and trust me, you do not just need a plan, the some magic plan that I'll come up with because if you needed that, you would have done it yourself. There's something much deeper going on here, but what I need from you is to accept that you need help.

• 18:31Ramit Sethi?

  And right now it feels like every time I ask a question, you're both resisting me and telling me why actually it's not that bad. Let me explain why I'm pushing them so hard right now. Christine and Thad are living in an alternative financial reality and they don't even know it. They are in dire danger, but instead of acknowledging it, they're minimizing and justifying and spinning. They can't even answer basic questions like what's the problem or how much do you need to retire? But they're confident, confident and wrong. And that's a very dangerous combination, especially when you are older. It's like their house is burning down and they're arguing about the paint color in the hallway.

• 19:11Ramit Sethi?

  You can probably hear it in my voice too. I'm getting less patient because I want them to take advantage of this opportunity and make a change. But first they have to recognize that there's a major problem. Obviously it's not working so far. So my job now is to play detective and find the angle that might have a chance of resonating with them. Let me try. Okay, I'm going to ask Thad to read off this first box. Thad, can you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Assets, zero. Investments, $136,496. Savings is $2,612. Debt is a total of $339,000. And the total net worth is a negative $199,000.

• 20:08Ramit Sethi?

  All right. What do you both think of those numbers?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  The numbers didn't surprise me because I didn't idea what they were. Um, looking at them is surprising because you know, it's not. It's such a high negative number.

• 20:20Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, Christine, what about you?

• 20:21Speaker 01

  We have a combined like quarter million dollars in student loans. I mean, if if you were to like pull that out, because I don't think either of us will ever get our student loans paid out. Even before we die, I've been out of college 25 years and I still owe $180,000. I'm never paying those off, even if I tried really, really hard and put like everything into it. So it kind of feels like those two things are those two student loans are on our back burner a little bit like I'll pay the minimum. And get it like get that monthly payment made, but I'm not making any efforts to pay it off because I just won't. Get to $180,000 before I die, I think. But so if you pulled those out, I think our numbers are like exactly what I thought they were and.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  It's not great. It's not a great picture. That's for sure.

• 21:09Ramit Sethi?

  What does that mean? It's not great?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  I'm not surprised that our assets were zero. We have no car and we have no house and we have no business. So. I do wish our savings was higher for sure. That's not even enough for an emergency fund. You know what I mean?

• 21:23Ramit Sethi?

  Now you two are not married, but for the purposes of the CSP, we combine. The numbers just for easy math.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:32Ramit Sethi?

  If we break those numbers apart. The $136,000 in investments. Is that?

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:39Ramit Sethi?

  Christine?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think my part of it is something like 127,000. No, 129,000 was mine.

• 21:46Ramit Sethi?

  And of the savings, 2612?

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Oh, I only have about $150 in savings.

• 21:53Ramit Sethi?

  And then the debt 339,000, how's that broken out?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  It's like I said, it's primarily our student loans. He has about 120,000. I have 180,000.

• 22:01Ramit Sethi?

  Let's look at the income. Christine, can you read off your combined gross monthly income, please?

• 22:07Speaker 01

  I can. It is $13,969.

• 22:11Ramit Sethi?

  If we combine your income just for easy math, then your household makes 167,625 dollars per year. Did you know that? Yes.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  We did.

• 22:24Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Which is why it surprises us that we're in such financial straits.

• 22:29Ramit Sethi?

  It has, I guess. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Y- you all are about to start going off into Storyland. Just answer my question. Did you know that you make $167,000 a year combined? Yes.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:40Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. That's interesting, because Christine, you told me at the beginning of this call, I'm broke and I don't make any money.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  I don't, because only part of that's mine. Only $67,000 of it is mine.

• 22:51Ramit Sethi?

  That doesn't sound broke to me.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it sure doesn't, but I don't ever seem to have any money.

• 22:57Ramit Sethi?

  You make $70,000 a year.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Not quite, but yeah.

• 23:01Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, even, I'm sorry, $69,465.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Do I make that much? I think I make only like $67,000, which does make a difference.

• 23:10Ramit Sethi?

  Even in my example, you can't allow an approximation.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 23:16Ramit Sethi?

  You have to make sure that I know it's less. Why, why? What does that get you?

• 23:21Speaker 01

  I don't know. Some sympathy, I think.

• 23:23Ramit Sethi?

  It doesn't work for me. You're not getting any sympathy right now.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  The people listening to this podcast will feel bad for me, because they know how little it is.

• 23:30Ramit Sethi?

  I don't think so, Christine.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Believe me, I'm way under the average for a person in Arlington.

• 23:38Ramit Sethi?

  Would you consider $167,000 a lot of money? Not a lot. What do you think? A lot. I mean, yeah, it's a lot. Okay, Christine?

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd say it's pretty much a lot. Yeah, that part of it is a little like, why do we feel pinched? Although I can look at the numbers and kind of guess where the problems are.

• 23:56Ramit Sethi?

  All right, let's do the rest. Let's look at the fixed costs here. Hold on.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:59Ramit Sethi?

  Fix, wow, I'm surprised. Fixed costs are at 61%.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:05Ramit Sethi?

  I would not have expected that, the way that the two of you talk about money.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Well, right, but you can see the personal breakdowns of the fixed costs, where I shoulder about 80% and his is only about 50% of his income, because we're paying exactly half of everything.

• 24:18Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that's a major problem.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  So I feel very stressed.

• 24:21Ramit Sethi?

  Let me explain what I'm seeing here. Christine is paying 78% of her take-home pay to fixed costs, while Thad is paying 50% towards fixed costs. So considering that Christine is making a lot less than Thad, she's still paying 50% of their rent.

• 24:41Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so we're gonna talk about that fixed costs, but let's just go through the rest of it. Investments, zero. Savings, what? 3% combined, but I want to point out they're saving $175 for vacations, $100 for a sewing and improv class, but $0 for an emergency fund.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Yes, but

• 25:02Ramit Sethi?

  Don't explain, don't explain it.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Okay, I won't.

• 25:05Ramit Sethi?

  We're just looking at the numbers.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Okay, fair.

• 25:08Ramit Sethi?

  36% combined for guilt-free spending. Christine's guilt-free spending is 17%. Thad's guilt-free spending, 49%. So Thad is spending essentially half of his take-home pay on guilt-free spending. What does that guilt-free spending money go towards?

• 25:24Speaker 02

  It's nothing in particular. It's a nickel and dime kind of situation. Food, uh, just wasteful spending, um. I don't know. Oh, well, I do have a daughter, and so some of that goes towards that, like her teeth and dentist and the costs for like school clothes and, uh, shoes and

• 25:43Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, well, let's talk about that then. Thad, take us through your spending.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Um, suffice to say,

• 25:52Ramit Sethi?

  No, no, no, I don't want suffice it. I want to know what you're spending on.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Clothes, shoes, food. And that's it.

• 26:00Ramit Sethi?

  All right. How much are you spending on clothes?

• 26:03Speaker 02

  $100 a month.

• 26:06Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's the first thing you're mentioning to me, clothes is $100 a month, you're spending

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Is that right? No.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  40 bucks a month.

• 26:15Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, it went down.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  At most.

• 26:16Ramit Sethi?

  What's all that stuff in the background of the videos that I see? What's your background?

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Uh, those are the board games hobby.

• 26:23Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, how much did all those cost?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  You're interested in that one, Christine?

• 26:28Speaker 01

  A lot, but we haven't purchased any new games in the last like three years.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  We're doing the numbers, though.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  We have cut that off.

• 26:37Ramit Sethi?

  You guys ready to give me a real answer instead of trying to deflect?

• 26:40Speaker 02

  It's 20 years' worth of stuff, right?

• 26:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know, $10,000?

• 26:44Speaker 02

  $10,000? No, $10,000.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  I have no idea. In truth, I don't know. It could be 5,000.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, 5,000 is a better number, 5,000, because about 40 bucks, Bob, so about $5,000.

• 26:56Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Five to ten thousand dollars on games.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  What else are you spending your money on?

• 27:03Speaker 02

  I'm wasting it, that's all. Like, you know, it's.

• 27:05Ramit Sethi?

  On what?

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Uh, food, cigars.

• 27:11Ramit Sethi?

  How much on cigars?

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Fifteen dollars every two days, so thirty bucks a week.

• 27:19Ramit Sethi?

  You better redo that math. Fifteen dollars every two days is not thirty dollars a week.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  About three times, yeah. It's about thirty, forty bucks a week on cigars, honestly.

• 27:29Ramit Sethi?

  How much is that per month?

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Uh, let's say two hundred dollars.

• 27:32Ramit Sethi?

  Two hundred dollars, alright, fine. Food?

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Three hundred dollars.

• 27:37Ramit Sethi?

  Three hundred dollars on food, okay. What, what do you, what do you spend that money on?

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Uh, eating out, school, eating out at different times.

• 27:44Ramit Sethi?

  Eating out at school and what was the other one?

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Like, I'm a teacher and so I go out for lunches, uh, about twelve dollars, like a sandwich and a drink and chips.

• 27:53Ramit Sethi?

  Tax, tip?

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Fifteen bucks.

• 27:56Ramit Sethi?

  Oh.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, no, of course tip. Of course, I was waiter for many, many years. Yes, I do tip. Uh, so let's say twenty bucks, about twenty bucks.

• 28:04Ramit Sethi?

  Do you notice what just happened? You said twelve bucks. The real answer is probably twenty or maybe even more.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:11Ramit Sethi?

  People who are ashamed of money and who are in debt, they will often use ranges. They'll say something like, oh, it's like twelve to fifteen. It's actually more like twenty and they feel very, very uncomfortable being honest with how much it is. They always err on the side of less than they are actually spending.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, I do, I do.

• 28:36Ramit Sethi?

  You do?

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:37Ramit Sethi?

  Alright, so how much you spend per month on eating out?

• 28:40Speaker 02

  When I say three hundred bucks, three hundred bucks.

• 28:42Ramit Sethi?

  Do you have it on your credit card?

• 28:45Speaker 02

  I do not.

• 28:47Ramit Sethi?

  Where do, how, where do you spend the money?

• 28:50Speaker 02

  I get cash.

• 28:51Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 28:53Speaker 02

  Uh, it's just so habit, I don't know.

• 28:57Ramit Sethi?

  I don't believe that.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Because I, sometimes I'll lose the card, you know, like in the last couple of years I've lost the card. Um, I don't use it, you know?

• 29:06Ramit Sethi?

  What the is going on right now? This, this is not believable to me.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  Right?

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Well, I ask him the same thing, why he gets cash out and I think it's so he can hide his spending so that it can't be tracked.

• 29:18Ramit Sethi?

  I, I just don't believe it. I don't believe that you only spend $300 a month on eating out. I don't believe that you only spend $40 a month on clothes. I, the way you're presenting it, oh, I'm me, me innocent dough. I don't know where the money is going. You keep telling me, on one hand, I'm spending a bunch of money. And I'm like trying to figure out where, because it's almost $3,000 per month. How are we getting to 3,000?

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Okay, to be, can I say be fair one thing?

• 29:43Ramit Sethi?

  No, I just want to know the numbers. Where are you getting to $3,000 a month?

• 29:49Ramit Sethi?

  I can't help you unless you tell me accurate numbers. The numbers you are telling me are not adding up.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  That's, that's it. All right. Hey, can we take a little break for a second?

• 30:00Ramit Sethi?

  Sure. I'm gonna be really honest. When Thad asked for a break, I thought he was about to shut this whole thing down and leave. This is a very intimidating environment for my guests. They go through a lot of steps to get here. There are cameras, they're meeting me for the first time and they are talking about one of the most intimate topics there is. Naturally, it feels really uncomfortable. But I think the discomfort goes deeper than being on a recorded video. With a lot of couples, you'll notice the long pauses, often the over explaining. And sometimes the same phrases that they've been using with each other for years and years, which suddenly fall flat when there's a third party involved. But then, to my surprise, Thad didn't leave. Watch what happens.

• 30:46Ramit Sethi?

  Thad, the amount you have left at the end of each month with your income is 49% of take home pay, which is $2,820. And we can't quite figure out where's the money going?

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Well, we, I had a little discussion and thought about it and sort of broke it down. And I think a lot of it was going to, uh, sort of going out and sort of drinking and maybe hanging out with friends and partying and, and wasting money in that sort of limelight kind of situation.

• 31:15Ramit Sethi?

  How much?

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Uh, whatever was left. I mean. I'm being honest with you.

• 31:21Ramit Sethi?

  I appreciate it.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  I tried to, I said this in the beginning, if I have money in my pocket, I'm spending it. You know, as long as I pay my rent and my food and the bills I gotta pay and I'm meeting my obligation and the relationship, then everything else is mine.

• 31:36Ramit Sethi?

  Dad, did you grow up poor?

• 31:37Speaker 02

  I grew up very, very poor.

• 31:39Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. What you just said is very typical of people who grew up poor.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  I know that we over talk, but like, again, these are issues that we've talked about and they've been walking with for years. Maybe you're a little vague or that, but they are, I understand. The relationship between my money and how I was taught and raised and how the habits I have now. And it's been a very long struggle to break those. And the difference between self-awareness and action is, is a mile apart. You know, it's hard to be completely open and honest when you can't be completely open and honest. You know, and uh,

• 32:15Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  about the drinking and the alcohol and, and you know, and Christine and I have been talking about switching from living in the moment and having fun in the moment, which I will always do, right? As opposed to putting money aside and saving it for the future, right? That has always been a balance, you know, and the latter has never been something that's been, I thought about. And you know, now I realize I'm going to reach retirement age. One way or another, I need to be prepared or not, you know? That's why I'm willing to be as honest as I can with here.

• 32:50Ramit Sethi?

  I appreciate the honesty. Without you sharing this, the rest of the picture is incomplete. It actually doesn't make any sense.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  I know, and I knew that. I'm so sorry. Cause I was trying to fix the problem without telling you guys the whole truth.

• 33:04Ramit Sethi?

  I appreciate that.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  And I would say the one thing that I was embarrassed about coming on the show for was that I owe a hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars uh, to student loans on seventeen thousand dollar principal. The rest is interest, because I just ignored it for 20 years and you're like, if such a minor thing, you know, at this stage, like I could pay that, you know? But to have seventeen thousand dollars balloon to a hundred and twenty, you're like,

• 33:33Ramit Sethi?

  But isn't there some relief in being able to just shine a light on our deepest shame? Just to say like, yeah, I didn't know. And also, I was negligent and irresponsible. And here I am. What's done is done. I'm coming here because I want to understand why I behave the way I do. It's not okay anymore. I can tell my wife is not okay with it anymore. She's been crying for almost an hour. And I want something better for the next chapter of my life. So I put myself in your hands. Show me some ways to get there. That's how I approach this. Like you tell me you have, you know, struggles with alcohol and student debt. Okay.

• 34:14Ramit Sethi?

  Everybody's got struggles. I appreciate the honesty. I hope you can see, I'm not here to judge. It brings that fuller light. And now we can really start to talk about what is truly going on here? And what can we do about it? So, thank you. I was surprised to hear he was keeping a secret. And I don't mind secrets. I don't even mind being lied to on this show. It's part of my job. But usually people tell me the truth about the broad strokes. What I think we can see here is the powerful grip of shame. Like you and I can deal with being angry or sad or even resentful. But shame is a very, very powerful emotion. It's often like emotional quicksand.

• 34:56Ramit Sethi?

  When we feel ashamed, it's difficult to even talk about it, much less come up with a solution. That's why it's so important to get help. I also want to point out that I'm very sensitive to addiction issues. It's not my place to ask anything here, nor am I qualified to. I don't know if he spent 1,500 bucks or $150,000 on drinking in the last 10 years. I heard him. I acknowledged it. I filed it away and moved on. What matters is that he admitted it. And now we can move on to what's next. Because if he wants any shot at building a real financial future, this is where it's going to start. What do you remember your family saying about money?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Well, it was an act of... Situation like my mom was a single mother for a long time, was really bad at money. At a very young age, I realized that like, at the end of the week, it was gonna be gone. I, here, I'll tell you, we would chase checks, we'd buy food, spend the money, go to a movie. And then for that entire week, have to go to this grocery store to get cash and put in the bank to cover the check from the previous day. She would chase a check all week, right? Uh, and I realized, we're sacrificing a moment of play on a Sunday to have fun.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  But I see, yeah, we don't have the money for it, and we're doing a lot of work to cover that. How did you know you were poor? I knew I was poor because of friends and like expensive life. So like I was babysitting, you know, and I'm seeing how other people lived. I also, my mom had this whole set of friends and around eight or nine, you know, they kind of said, hey, you have to start taking care of your kids more. You're your daughter, your son more, you know, be more responsible. So it was an ongoing kind of narrative throughout, you know, our neighborhood, you know, like even in our very poor neighborhood. My house was the dirtiest of all the houses, you know, and I could never in my entire life have people over for, never had friends over, you know, never had girlfriends over, you know? Right. Uh, have to hide that kind of shame and, you know?

• 37:01Speaker 02

  And I will say the biggest thing that impacts me, that I think impacts me the most is, uh, at the end of my grandmother's life. Uh, she had a whole inheritance. It was just an ugly scene to watch that play out. You know, my mom, who is resentments her whole life, doesn't want to spend a dime because it's detracting from her inheritance. Not telling people things, you know, and like, I think in the end, uh, my mom passed and she had like all this money and didn't reveal it. And I did what I did when I was a kid, I said, you know what? Buy me PlayStation two and I'll, and I'm gone. That's all I want. You have two hundred thousand dollars. What did your mom do with the two hundred thousand dollars? I mean.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Look, it's just, she would buy thousand dollar chairs. Like, we had these four chairs, they're a thousand dollars each. And look, we had a house that had dog poop in the kitchen, you know? And I'm like, you're gonna buy chairs that cost four thousand dollars to put them in a house that has dog poop in it? It's that god-sized hole that you fill with things, you know, it never gets filled. But, you know, she just kept spending and spending and spending, trying to fill it, you know?

• 38:13Ramit Sethi?

  Do you see any similarities with your mom's spending and your spending?

• 38:16Speaker 02

  I mean, exactly. I mean, I've lived parallel lives, you know? And that's why I'm here. At each station in my life, I would look at like where my mom was, you know, and see the mistakes that I've done, that I'm falling in her path there. And like, I don't wanna go down that path, but my path, there's no other option out there, you know? Even if we sit down here today and come up and I understand what the plan is and we have a budget and I'm willing to work it all, you know? There's just the amount of time between now and then, you know?

• 38:43Ramit Sethi?

  What lessons do you think you took away from your childhood as it relates to money?

• 38:48Speaker 02

  I don't value it much. It comes, it goes. I waste it, I spend it, I drop it.

• 38:53Ramit Sethi?

  So you spend it, you waste it, you enjoy it, and?

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Go get more and, you know, that's it.

• 38:58Ramit Sethi?

  Right. Basically, no big deal.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:04Ramit Sethi?

  I think that's a pretty accurate lesson that you took away from your childhood. I mean, look at your mom.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:08Ramit Sethi?

  She would spend it, check, chase, do all this stuff, and, and if we take an honest look at her situation right now, sexually, okay.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  I also, I would tell my childhood, I took away is, I never expected to live past the age of thirty, right?

• 39:23Ramit Sethi?

  Your dad died at thirty?

• 39:24Speaker 02

  My dad was never in the picture. No one in my family that I know died at thirty. I just know that everyone died, like, it was just an arbitrary number, like, in my neighborhood, just many, many people died.

• 39:35Ramit Sethi?

  Why'd they all die?

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Like, in the eighties, like, a lot of drugs, like, crack hit our neighborhood.

• 39:41Ramit Sethi?

  Wh- where did you grow up?

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Uh, Pittsburgh.

• 39:43Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:44Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  You know, I went to college and I came back and I was devastated by that epidemic. But even prior to that, like, not having, you know, a community where, you know, dads weren't present, you know, the family structure wasn't there. You know, understanding that it existed, we just didn't have it.

• 40:02Ramit Sethi?

  This is really opening my eyes to... To you today with money, when you take me back, and I think it's a gift you're giving me. A lot of people cannot imagine what it is like to grow up in a neighborhood where you just don't see a lot of older men. They're just not around. You know, how many people from the time you were young to the time you were 30, do you know in your neighborhood that died?

• 40:26Speaker 02

  I literally was telling my daughter, talking to my daughter about this, you know, about this, because you know, I'm raising her and she's a teenager. And I was going over and I think that two thirds of the people I grew up with, if not 85% are dead or like in prison. But like, I'm one of the few that I know made it out of there.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  I think it seems somewhat apparent, like why he has the, I don't know, takes the actions he takes, I guess, spends the money and doesn't save it. Um, I too did not have a good role model for that. And you can see where it's gotten me. I can appreciate when he's growing up with a single mom in a poor neighborhood, you know, if people around him are not living to an old age, why would you prepare for that? It's, you know.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  I've known these mistakes, like living with this and battling this lack of money, you know, my entire life. And, you know, I've made some strides, but just when you're aware of it, it's, you know, that makes it frustrating, you know? And I have to break that habit of if I have it in my pocket, then I can spend it.

• 41:28Ramit Sethi?

  Or what?

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Or, or I'll continue to be in debt.

• 41:32Ramit Sethi?

  Have you ever thought about it? Like really thought about it? If I keep going on the path that I'm going on, I'm already in my late 50s.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Um, I am homeless under a bridge.

• 41:45Ramit Sethi?

  Are you being for real?

• 41:46Speaker 02

  I'm being a hundred percent honest. I would be homeless, under a bridge, still trying to do stand up comedy at the age of 70. And I'm a dreamer, so I still think for some reason.

• 41:56Ramit Sethi?

  I'm gonna make it big somehow. My jaw was on the floor, listening to that. It's one thing to hear someone say that they grew up poor. It's another thing to hear the vivid details of what that really means. Like never inviting a friend over, or never expecting to live past thirty. Most of us have no idea how deeply socioeconomic class shapes our life, and even what we believe is possible. And this is what people mean when they use that word "privilege." You know that word that everybody scoffs at? Think about the privilege you have. If you grew up in a family where someone said, "Of course you're going to college." That's privilege. If your parents took you to visit a campus when you were a kid and say, "Hey, one day you can go here," that's privilege.

• 42:41Ramit Sethi?

  In fact, that's what my parents did. They told my sisters, "You can go here to UC Berkeley." They told me, "You can go to Stanford." And because they said it, because they showed it to us, it suddenly felt normal and possible. And that's actually where we went. Now imagine the opposite. Imagine growing up in a world where, according to your eyes, nobody really lives past thirty. Where you literally don't see old people around you because they're either bedridden, or they all died. How could you possibly even think of planning for retirement when you don't even believe you'll make it there? This is why models matter. It's what people mean when they say "representation matters." If you don't see it, it doesn't even feel possible.

• 43:24Ramit Sethi?

  And here's the takeaway, especially for parents watching this show right now. If you're raising kids, think about the possibilities that you can open up for them. It could be college, it could be money, it could be anything. I remember my sister once competed in a powerlifting event, and she brought her daughter to the competition. Imagine being a young girl and seeing your mom, who's a doctor, lifting more weight than most people can imagine. What do you think that does for a young girl's sense of possibility? That is the gift you can give your loved ones, your kids, your family, even your friends. Exposing them to new models, especially you, living a rich life and being competent with money. Let them see what's possible.

• 44:10Ramit Sethi?

  Christine.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:12Ramit Sethi?

  Take me back to your childhood.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Oh, boy. Oh, thank God I have an art tissue right here, huh?

• 44:17Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, tell me.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  I would say that we were lower middle class. I grew up in a suburb of Cleveland. So basically what happened when I was like 12 ish, my parents decided we were gonna move. So my mom says, oh, we drive into this new development. She wants to get a house in this development and it's gonna have to be constructed from scratch, of course. It's a brand new development. And so they had some model homes there, but they couldn't afford the model homes. So they literally had to make a smaller version of the model. It's been a while, but they had to make like a steeper roof because it was like somehow like less material. All the garages were supposed to be side facing. They had to get a waiver to make a front facing garage. So they had to pour less concrete and that cost us less.

• 44:59Ramit Sethi?

  So what happened?

• 45:00Speaker 01

  So basically the house took all our money and my dad still doesn't have money to this moment. He still hasn't paid off the house. It's been 35 years.

• 45:09Ramit Sethi?

  What did you learn from that as a 12 year old?

• 45:12Speaker 01

  That I wish my dad could have said no.

• 45:14Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, okay.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  I did find out years later, like kind of more recently, actually, that my brother and I went to private school. For like first grade through 12th grade and they had to take out loans to pay for it. And so like those kinds of things frustrate me when I'm so much in in student loan debt where you're like, couldn't you have saved some of that money to help me pay for my school or something?

• 45:38Ramit Sethi?

  Did you ever talk to them about that?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  I have talked to them a lot about it and it just kind of was the decision they made. They felt very strongly that I have a Catholic school education and.

• 45:49Ramit Sethi?

  It's really interesting. I've spoken to several parents on this podcast who insist on sending their kids to private school.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  They, that was their rich life, I guess, sending me to a private school and I have a younger brother too. So we both went. But there were other things too, because, um, well, you know how much I own student loans. So a lot of it was my undergrad. I had also gotten a half ride to Eastern Michigan. And I, but I didn't want to go to Eastern Michigan. I didn't think it was like as great. I went to Duquesne. I loved it and I want to go there, but it was like more expensive.

• 46:18Ramit Sethi?

  How did you decide not to go to the school where you had half tuition paid for?

• 46:23Speaker 01

  In truth, I was a stupid eighteen year old. I didn't understand and everyone around me because you know this was almost thirty years ago and nobody was talking about student loans at that time like we are now. So my dad was like, oh yeah, it's fine. That's cool. But then I have been stuck with the burden of the student loan since then. You know what I mean? It's just very frustrating, I think.

• 46:43Ramit Sethi?

  Who are you frustrated at?

• 46:45Speaker 01

  I think

• 46:47Speaker 01

  in truth, mostly my parents. They spent a lot of my childhood robbing Peter to pay Paul. And you know, electricity would get turned off. Our cars would break down inside. It rode all the time. It just it was always like we were in debt and never could get out of it. So you know, it just I think my dad struggled to ask for help as well and so would get himself into maybe a financial situation, but didn't know how to get himself out and would think he had to do it.

• 47:17Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. What lessons did you grow up with relating to money that you bring to this relationship?

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Whoa, um, that is actually a really tough one because I have done everything I possibly can to be different than my parents. And I still feel like I'm in the exact same spot of like not being able to get ahead. I mean, despite my poetry savings account, it certainly is more than they have. My, my investment accounts are more than they have. I'm aiming for financial.

• 47:45Ramit Sethi?

  You to compare yourself to your parents.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't think I learned any lessons from them.

• 47:51Ramit Sethi?

  Christine, I'm not asking you to compare yourself to your parents. I'm asking what lessons did you observe or absorb that you are now bringing to this relationship?

• 48:03Speaker 02

  I think that you have taken their lessons and internalize them into a fear of yours and sort of like operate from that. I mean, that's what I kind of think. I think that you see.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  What they're lied, the choices they made and you prescribe your own feelings to that? And then you, that's fearful for you.

• 48:23Ramit Sethi?

  You operate from fear. Do you agree Christine or disagree?

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Oh, I agree a hundred percent.

• 48:27Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's, that's kind of profound. Good, good point that. I always say the partner knows best. If you are stuck, sometimes you just ask your partner. They, they know. They've been watching it for years. Christine, uh, how come that didn't come up when I just asked you?

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Well, that is what I was saying. I was trying to be different from my parents because I'm afraid of being like them.

• 48:46Ramit Sethi?

  But you're still afraid today.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Well, right, because we're not financially stable.

• 48:51Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, so if you were financially stable, you would not be afraid. Is that what you're saying?

• 48:55Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 48:56Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And have you taken specific steps to become financially stable?

• 49:00Speaker 01

  I've tried.

• 49:01Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, that, huh.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  It's not been successful, but I have tried.

• 49:06Ramit Sethi?

  How do you feel about your student loan?

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Indifferent. I don't think there's any hope of paying get off before I die. So I just am not making a very concerted effort.

• 49:14Ramit Sethi?

  You have a hundred and eighty thousand dollars.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but what am I supposed to do about that? I only make sixty seven thousand dollars a year.

• 49:20Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I, I, I'm not talking about solution. I'm talking about how do you feel about that debt?

• 49:25Speaker 01

  I did not understand the ramifications of my decision. I think people had told me I would make enough money to pay it, but the truth was I didn't. And I do feel indifferent because I have no interest in really making any effort to pay my student loan. I will pay the monthly payment, but I'm not going to make extra payments.

• 49:43Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, fine.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  When it's never going to get paid off.

• 49:44Ramit Sethi?

  And that, how do you feel about your hundred and twenty thousand dollar loan in a word or two?

• 49:49Speaker 02

  Uh, shameful, uh, and overwhelmed.

• 49:52Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that's more common.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  I mean, I get that, but what am I supposed to do? I mean, it's been around for twenty five years. It's not getting paid, so.

• 50:01Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  I'm doing my best, but I have other debt that I can actually pay off and make like a difference in my life.

• 50:07Ramit Sethi?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  The student loan, I just.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  But it's something that we talk about a lot. We feel overwhelmed. We're not going to be able to pay it. It's a, a constant hindrance in our lives. It's the reason why we can't get ahead, kind of. That's the kind of narrative that student loans play in our, in our conversations.

• 50:26Ramit Sethi?

  I love that you use the word narrative.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:28Ramit Sethi?

  I love that because so much of the way that we treat our money is purely a narrative.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:34Ramit Sethi?

  How old is your daughter?

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Fourteen.

• 50:37Ramit Sethi?

  Fourteen. Remember when she was like four, like three, four, it's all like making up stories, you know, I'm flying on a unicorn, that type of thing. Adults are actually not much different. So much of our relationship with money is essentially a fairy tale.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying. It's not making me more interested in paying them.

• 50:58Ramit Sethi?

  Hearing how Christine grew up with her parents racking up debt, it's no surprise that she is caught in the same exact cycle today. And this is the unfortunate reality for millions of Americans. Compound interest can work for you, or it can work against you. In this case, it works against them, ballooning into something so overwhelming, they've basically just filed it away and they try not to think about it. But of course, what does that do? Ignoring it only makes it worse, which is one reason that so many people feel crushed by their loans. The weight is so heavy that they just give up. They stop opening statements, they stop imagining what life could look like without that debt. But on this show, we don't run from what's uncomfortable. We actually go straight through the fire.

• 51:44Ramit Sethi?

  So if you are in a similar situation, buried under loans, not even sure how to start, you don't have to do it alone. In my money coaching program, I show you step by step how to take control of your money, build a plan, and then stick with that plan so you follow through. You can sign up at I W T dot com slash money coaching. Now, listen as I push Christine and Thad to face the consequences of years of inaction. See if we can finally create a plan.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  In the next ten years, of course, I anticipate that that is going to retire. And I do worry because I certainly have more in my retirement accounts, but it's not enough to support us both.

• 52:24Ramit Sethi?

  What will happen?

• 52:25Speaker 03

  Well, we've talked about moving to a lower cost area once his daughter's out of high school. She's just going to be a freshman and starting in two weeks. So we've got four or five years before that could even be a reality. We could go back to one of our two hometowns, Pittsburgh or Cleveland would, I think, be good choices for us and have family nearby. But I think we're going to have to live in, you know, maybe small cramped quarters, still no car, relying on public transportation in areas where that's not as possible as it is here. I definitely don't think we're going to be able to take any vacations. I enjoy to get a pedicure and I used to get one just once per year on my birthday and we have increased that kind of recently in an effort to have a more rich life. I think that those kind of

• 53:08Speaker 03

  things obviously couldn't be little splurges anymore. It just is, um, I think we'll just have to live a tiny cramped life.

• 53:17Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 53:19Ramit Sethi?

  Dad, what about you? If nothing changes 10 years from now?

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Um, I have a little bit of a different view. I'm more optimistic about it. I don't think that it's gonna be cramped. I still think that somehow, you know, like we'll move to a place that we want to live. So I, I mean, something like the Maine or the Northwest, you know, like, I think that like in four years when we are out of the high school, then I think the future opens up then, you know, we can do it where we want. I don't necessarily think that that's gonna be a downward trend.

• 53:50Ramit Sethi?

  What about the money part of it?

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Man, I'm not afraid to not have money.

• 53:54Ramit Sethi?

  Just, just to put another way of looking at it, right now, the two of you have a savings of $2,612 total.

• 54:02Ramit Sethi?

  You have $136,000 invested. You know, if we're, you know, being relatively conservative, you know, maybe you take, I don't know, $6,000 a year withdrawal from that amount.

• 54:17Ramit Sethi?

  What are you gonna do with $6,000 a year? Nobody can live on that. You don't own a house, so your housing costs, even if you go somewhere cheaper, still gonna exist. Now we're talking about social security. And if you know anyone who takes social security, it's not a lot of money. We're talking poverty line, below poverty line. I guess what I'm trying to get at is like, let's get really specific here. If nothing changes, the way I see it, there's no vacations. You are forced to move to a place that you will probably not want to move to, because it by definition will be undesirable. You don't eat out, you're, you're literally getting the cheapest on sale bread. That's what we're talking about. Day to day. What do you guys think of that?

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and how should I feel about that?

• 55:03Ramit Sethi?

  I think you should feel extremely terrified.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:08Ramit Sethi?

  Are you all prepared to make some big changes? Or do we want to make little changes?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  I personally am prepared to make very big changes.

• 55:13Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that?

• 55:15Speaker 02

  Yes, I'm prepared to make big changes.

• 55:17Ramit Sethi?

  Love it, let's do it.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  Can we have the options for little ones too? Just so, just kidding.

• 55:22Ramit Sethi?

  Your fixed cost rate is sixty one percent, which again is striking to me. Couple of things I want to highlight here. Your car payment slash transportation is extremely low. So what are you taking the train?

• 55:36Speaker 02

  I ride my bike.

• 55:37Ramit Sethi?

  You ride your bike, great.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  We use metro and bus in other.

• 55:41Ramit Sethi?

  Love it.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Times, yeah.

• 55:42Ramit Sethi?

  I love public transportation. If you had a car, your numbers would be over seventy. Great job, keep it up. Let's look at the rest of it. Phone at one seventy, whatever. Subscriptions at two oh seven, no way. Drop that.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  I don't know, does NFL Sunday ticket go?

• 55:58Ramit Sethi?

  If you're asking me, the answer is yes, that should have gone in the first place.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  No, I was talking about that, I'm sorry. Not you or me, because that actually saves us money by him not going out to watch the game with friends and then eating food.

• 56:10Ramit Sethi?

  No, no, no, no, no, no, that's.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:13Ramit Sethi?

  NFL is gone. A family with three hundred and thirty nine thousand dollars of debt does not have an NFL subscription. I'm sorry.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  It's gone, out of there, alright.

• 56:24Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  It's because we're still on this Zoom call, I think.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  We are here to learn and like buy into this, let's just do this.

• 56:31Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you. Let me put it this way, if you guys are faking it for me, good luck.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  I'm not, but I'm saying like, I don't think, I don't know, I'm being realistic.

• 56:40Ramit Sethi?

  Christine.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:42Ramit Sethi?

  Your need to control is showing up right now.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:46Ramit Sethi?

  What is the new subscription number, please?

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, it's at zero dollars.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  I mean, geez, that seemed like extreme, but yeah, no, we can cut.

• 56:56Ramit Sethi?

  Hold on, what, what seems extreme to me is having three hundred thirty nine thousand dollars of debt and almost no savings at age fifty seven. I don't think you're prepared for the type of changes you need to make. This is the easiest thing we're gonna do on our whole call. Two hundred and seven dollars? Christine.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:14Ramit Sethi?

  What's the indecision here?

• 57:15Speaker 03

  I don't know. I actually don't know.

• 57:17Ramit Sethi?

  But it's you.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is me. It's only me.

• 57:20Ramit Sethi?

  I think that you are surprised that that is actually participating with money, that he's actually moving in a direction that would produce a healthier outcome. I think you don't believe it. I think you think it's too good to be true, and the minute we hang up this call, it's gonna go back the way it is. You think that by decreasing the amount you have to cut, he might actually follow through. But that's not how it's gonna work.

• 57:43Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 57:44Ramit Sethi?

  Either he's going to do it, or he's not.

• 57:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 57:48Ramit Sethi?

  I need you to understand that. You have to be willing to ask for what you need.

• 57:53Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 57:53Ramit Sethi?

  And Thad, you also need to be willing to ask for what you need, because you're 57. In other words, you can't both be fighting each other on this. You actually both need to be a team, and you need to be having an upward spiral. Otherwise, you're doomed.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  But I believe in you, Christine. And you can believe that I will be there. How about that? If you believe it, I will put my best forward effort in walking with you.

• 58:16Speaker 03

  It's hard, because so many things I've asked him to do over the years, and they don't get done. And so I don't feel like this is gonna get done. It's just hard.

• 58:26Ramit Sethi?

  I get it. I get it. There's a lot of scars.

• 58:31Ramit Sethi?

  When you ask your partner and they don't do it, they either outright refuse, they kick the can down the road, they let a piece of paper sit on the counter for six months. It really causes scars. And it's certain... Look at this. Christine can't even believe that Thad, that you will cut an NFL subscription. Do you see the effects that your behavior has had on Christine?

• 58:54Speaker 02

  I do.

• 58:56Ramit Sethi?

  So I don't know if the two of you are gonna stick with any plan that we come up with. I don't know. And actually, that's not really my responsibility. I can't control your finances. I'm not here to be the magical savior. It's your money. You all got yourself into this situation. And the only people who will pull you out will be the two of you. That's it. It's really as simple as that. Now, you might make it. I hope you do. I'll give you as much support as I can on this call. And my community will rally behind you, watching, seeing how you follow up, all of that.

• 59:32Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 59:32Ramit Sethi?

  But you might not.

• 59:35Ramit Sethi?

  And I think that's important enough to know as well. And if, note that, now's the time to listen. Okay. If you don't change, then we are also going to talk about what steps you might take. Because right now, this is unsustainable.

• 59:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:52Ramit Sethi?

  It simply cannot work. You can hear the scars in Christine's voice. Years of asking, years of him not following through. And this isn't just about that. Christine says, "I asked him," but she didn't actually ask for exactly what she wanted. Everyone listening needs to hear this. That skill of asking for what you want is one of the most important and underdeveloped skills to living a rich life. And I say that as someone who's working on this very thing in my own relationship. What Christine needs is competence. Competence around money, because competence is what builds confidence. And they also probably need a therapist. Christine is skeptical of that.

• 1:00:37Ramit Sethi?

  Fine, I'm skeptical too. But if we both stay in skepticism forever, nothing changes. We could end the call right now and they would walk away with nothing changing. Instead, we're going back to the numbers to find a different way to tackle this. Subscriptions, what number should I put in?

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  Zero dollars.

• 1:00:54Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you very much. Thad, do you agree? I agree. Zero it is. Let's watch what happens. Your fixed costs drop to 59%. All of that work was not a waste. But I do want to point out, we spent probably 10 minutes talking about that one number. It dropped your fixed cost by 2%. Not much. Do you all see that?

• 1:01:11Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:01:12Ramit Sethi?

  We need to be playing big, way bigger.

• 1:01:15Speaker 03

  I think our cable bill is two, I think it's this one, 235.59.

• 1:01:21Ramit Sethi?

  Where is that?

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Part of the utilities.

• 1:01:24Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, you want to drop that? Okay.

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  Well, it's the only other big, like, expense that we actually, we can't control our rent right now, so.

• 1:01:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, you want to drop it?

• 1:01:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it goes down to 200 then, if it's 436 and this is 235.

• 1:01:38Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, it drops down to 200. Watch this. Utilities going down. Whoa, we're at 56%. Guys, this is really impressive.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:45Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I'm liking it. I'm loving it, actually. Can we keep moving? Yep, let's go. By the way, that nice TV you have, you know, on the wall, it's gonna be a beautiful picture frame of just black. It's perfect. Like, we call it darkness. Ah, perfect. Never turn that thing on. Can I just point something out? Do you realize? That you have $4,000 per month to spend wherever you like.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  I'm sure it doesn't feel like it, but.

• 1:02:11Ramit Sethi?

  I know it doesn't feel like it.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  That is what the chart says.

• 1:02:14Speaker 02

  I want to figure out where the best place to put it. I don't want to just say I'm actively asking to, but like whatever we think is the best and most appropriate use of the money. I that's where I wanted to go.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Well, I think we do have to hear budget for both of our student loan payments. Neither one of us is making our student loan payments right now and they're coming back in October.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  Mine's like six, seven, 35 a month.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, mine's somewhere around um 500 a month.

• 1:02:41Ramit Sethi?

  So 1,200, let's say 1,300.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, we do have to budget for that.

• 1:02:45Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm. Let's say 13 and that's the minimums.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, those are minimums.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  Those are minimums.

• 1:02:50Ramit Sethi?

  Do you know the interest rate on those?

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  I want to think it's like 6%. It's outrageous.

• 1:02:54Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. You're already paying $800 a month towards debt. That's for what the credit cards?

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:01Ramit Sethi?

  So I'm going to add $1,300 to the amount of debt payments, which is going to take you to 2092.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:03:09Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Your fixed costs jumped up to 70%. Okay. Sometimes debt payments artificially inflate that number. In this case, it's you're going to be paying it out for a long time.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Ramit Sethi?

  So we're gonna look at that in a minute.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:21Ramit Sethi?

  But let's go down. You still have $2,635 a month.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, put it in his retirement account.

• 1:03:28Ramit Sethi?

  That's it?

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and to our savings, I said that to our savings and to our retirement account.

• 1:03:33Ramit Sethi?

  So how much?

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  I don't know. I'm willing to see how much would be a good number.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Uh, half?

• 1:03:39Ramit Sethi?

  Let's put $1,000 a month towards investments. And let's put $1,000 a month towards long-term emergency fund. I am going to realistically, you all are not doing this sewing and photography class.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  No, there was one time.

• 1:03:55Ramit Sethi?

  Vacations at 175? I'm sorry to say you have no vacations.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Well, it's not vacations that was our savings like. We only have one savings account is what it is.

• 1:04:06Ramit Sethi?

  But it's literally labeled vacations.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  I mean, I have the idea of going on a Viking cruise. I really want to go very badly, but you know, it's not in our budget right now. And that feels frustrating.

• 1:04:16Ramit Sethi?

  I'm not trying to be hard on you guys, but look, look at this. You guys cannot afford to take vacations. That's it.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  And we don't take vacations. It's not really for vacations. That's what I'm saying to you. It's just our savings account.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you could zero that number out.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  It's for anything we need for our house in an emergency.

• 1:04:31Ramit Sethi?

  No.

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  So it's an emergency fund.

• 1:04:33Ramit Sethi?

  Stop. We don't put money in a vacation fund that is not really for vacations. You're not respecting money. When you put money for one thing, but you, deep down, you know, you're going to tap into it when you need it. That is not how we respect money. We need to fill up an emergency fund and we need to be honest with each other. We are not taking a vacation in the near term. That's it. So there is no vacation fund. There is no vacation savings, none of it. It doesn't exist because it's not going to happen. Part of living a rich life is you need to be honest with yourself and honest with the people you love. Right now, you're not doing either. That have you talked about college for your daughter?

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  Other than like as throughout life, but no. I mean, at this point, like, you know.

• 1:05:17Ramit Sethi?

  How's she planning to pay for it?

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  I would be paying for it. You know, I mean, like loans or something like that. I don't know. And we haven't talked about it.

• 1:05:23Ramit Sethi?

  Let's talk about it right now. Thad, you cannot afford to pay for your daughter.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:05:28Ramit Sethi?

  It's as simple as that. There is, there's no possible way. That's it. That's really hard for parents to hear. You know, my parents didn't pay for my college. They told us point blank. They're like, of course you're going to college. We expect that, but we don't have money for you. So you're going to have to find a way. You're going to have to get scholarships, et cetera. And we did. Sometimes some of my siblings took out loans. I'm not saying that everybody can do it. What I am saying is that my parents were very honest with us. And it actually didn't make us feel bad. We're just like, oh, okay. That's what we knew.

• 1:06:03Ramit Sethi?

  We can't, they laughed. They're like, we don't have any money. What do you want us to do? We have no money. Okay. Thank you for telling me. This is the kind of honesty that I want with money. When I say you got to be honest with the people we love and with ourselves. This is what I mean. Are we good to continue on with the numbers?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:06:20Ramit Sethi?

  First of all, these numbers have dramatically shifted. Your fixed costs have gone up. They've gone up from roughly 60% to 70%. That is primarily because you are paying a lot more towards debt. Okay. And we also did drop a little bit of the subscriptions and cable. So you actually blunted that number going up. Good job. I think that's really good. Your investments are at 10%. They are actually a little bit higher than that if we count all the pre-tax investments because that is making some pre-tax 403B. So it's at least 10%, probably like 15%, something like that. Your savings are at 12%. We have all of the money, $1,175,

• 1:07:03Ramit Sethi?

  being directed towards a long-term emergency fund. It's going to take you six months to get one month of an emergency fund. So it's a little slower than I would like, but we're at least we're going in the right direction. And then guilt-free spending, you have $735 left over total per month, 8%. Now, normally, I would say 8% is pretty low. You know, typically, I like to see that number 20 to 35%. The fact is, you have to start living on way less, way less. 8% is fine. If I were being aggressive about it, I would do it on 3% to 5%, but I

• 1:07:43Ramit Sethi?

  don't think right now you have the capabilities to do that. It's hard to go from 40% down to 8%. So I want to be realistic. How does it strike you so far?

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  For me, I like it. I'm paying the bills, the student loans. I think that makes me feel good. I feel more complete that way. So I like seeing the plan and it out in front of us.

• 1:08:07Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Christine?

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  I mean, the numbers are stark, but I think it's going the right direction for sure. I'm on board with it.

• 1:08:14Ramit Sethi?

  Where are we going to end up? That's what we need to know. Is it enough? I want to plug these into my investment calculator. You can just search Ramit calculators and you will find a series of calculators. We'll use the investment one. So you are starting off with $136,000. You're going to invest $1,000 a month, eh, plus Thad's amount. So let's make it 1,500 just for easy math. How about that? Is that fair enough? Thad, are we approximately 500 bucks a month pre-tax?

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:44Ramit Sethi?

  How many years will you keep investing? Thad, you're 57, so why don't we say eight years just to see?

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  Just a number, yes.

• 1:08:51Ramit Sethi?

  All right, so if we include both your investments altogether, you two will have $430,000.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  But you didn't include my contributions to that if that's our joint.

• 1:09:03Ramit Sethi?

  Do you have more pre-tax that you're contributing?

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Uh, wait, 401K, $200 a month?

• 1:09:09Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  No, 230, I'm sorry, 230.

• 1:09:13Ramit Sethi?

  All right, so you're going to have $460,000. Okay.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:18Ramit Sethi?

  And let's take a look at what that means. You will be able to safely withdraw $18,000 per year for retirement.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  That is not enough.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  We would clearly be living in a cardboard box next to the ditch on the side of the road.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  Just say not happy, I guess, not completely.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  No, we wouldn't. We wouldn't even be able to afford anything.

• 1:09:43Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. What are your options?

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  I mean, I can personally increase my investments, but I'll also be working longer. I probably have 20 years left of working.

• 1:09:52Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  So I've got longer to invest than he does.

• 1:09:55Ramit Sethi?

  I like where you're going with time. Time is one of your number one variables. Thad, I don't think you're going to retire at 65.

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  I don't think so either.

• 1:10:03Ramit Sethi?

  Shall we take a look at the numbers then? If we calculate this for not just eight years, but let's make it 13 years, suddenly you have $776,000. You could withdraw $31,000 per year.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  I mean, it's still not a lot, but certainly more than it was.

• 1:10:22Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, it's going in the right direction. Let's not, let's not forget social security. Again, not a lot, but at this point, we actually need to factor that in.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  And I'll still be working seven years past that, so.

• 1:10:36Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, you will.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  You know, I'm hoping to get a higher paying either position at my company or a different job that pays more.

• 1:10:43Ramit Sethi?

  Could you make that happen for sure?

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  No, I will not at my company. I'd have to leave my company to get a higher paying job right now.

• 1:10:51Ramit Sethi?

  Could you do it?

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could do it. Sure. If there's one available. I live in Washington DC where basically all the federal employees just got laid off. So job market's a little stiff, but I I'll have my eyes out looking.

• 1:11:04Ramit Sethi?

  It is one of the most important things you can do is for you to increase your job salary. And so I know that it's very, very difficult right now in the federal government.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:15Ramit Sethi?

  But when it comes to where you are putting your energy.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:20Ramit Sethi?

  Putting it towards finding a higher paying job will be one of the most important things you can do.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:11:27Ramit Sethi?

  That, what about you? What about your income?

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  I I intend on increasing my income considerably like in the next five years or so like that.

• 1:11:35Ramit Sethi?

  I don't care about five years. I care about five months at this stage. We don't have five years.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  And five, oh, in five months? Oh, no.

• 1:11:41Ramit Sethi?

  How can you do it? Not no, how can you do it? You have to.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  Get a new job in five months?

• 1:11:48Ramit Sethi?

  I don't know. That's one way to go.

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:11:50Ramit Sethi?

  What else?

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Oh, am I say, what, I'm saving now is that I'm doing?

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. You do have to increase your savings.

• 1:11:58Ramit Sethi?

  You need more money. You need more income. How?

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. In addition to working more than I could, I could pick up more work. I mean, I can see I could get more jobs. I mean, you know, like the next thing's out. Well, so when school starts, I do math. That's like extra $550. I'm the math coach for the team.

• 1:12:14Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  Which team? Yeah.

• 1:12:15Ramit Sethi?

  $550 per what?

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Oh, no, that's like a once time thing, you know? So I do like, I do like the tradings and like the extra income stuff for teachers throughout the year.

• 1:12:27Ramit Sethi?

  I need more than that. You need more than that. Not me. You need.

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:32Ramit Sethi?

  Tutoring?

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  Uh, tutoring?

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  It's kind of hard.

• 1:12:39Ramit Sethi?

  Life is hard. Having $339,000 of debt is hard. And being poor when you're older is really hard.

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  No, but instead of tutoring somebody else's kid, I'm gonna tutor my own kid. So, you know, and that's a choice I'm gonna have to make. Because she's struggling, I need to make sure, you know, like, I have energies. I understand I need to make that energy, but.

• 1:12:59Ramit Sethi?

  Hard?

• 1:13:01Ramit Sethi?

  I don't know, I don't know what that word means. When you have this much debt and you're gonna retire in abject poverty.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 1:13:10Ramit Sethi?

  I guess we're speaking different languages.

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  I don't know how much, what job I can pick up now and how I can increase, like, my salary in six months.

• 1:13:22Ramit Sethi?

  If you had a gun to your head, could you do it?

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:30Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, that's quite a telling response.

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  Like, who's gonna give me a job? I mean, what am I gonna do?

• 1:13:36Ramit Sethi?

  That's, that's, I find this extremely fascinating. If somebody told me, Ramit, you have no business, everything's shut down, and gun to the head, could you find a way to earn more money? I didn't even tell you how much money. I just said more. My answer would be, I don't need six months. Give me five days, get out of my way, I'm done with this conversation, come back to me on Friday. I'll find a way. What, what is the difference?

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  And there is a difference.

• 1:14:03Ramit Sethi?

  Why do I say it that way and you don't?

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  You're asking me to get another revenue income stream, which is fine, right? And I'm willing to do that in any manner that I can do. What that would look like and what that is, I don't know. Like, a evening job, like, to work at, like, Subway after school, right? What I was saying before, there is that work-life balance. Right, as far as, like, if my daughter is. I'm taking care of her as well. I have to be part of her life as well. If I say I work until I come home at six and I take an evening job and I work overnight. Like, how much work additional job should I get, right? And be content with and say, hey, I'm content.

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  This is a stable pattern for the next thirteen years, right? And being able to meet the obligations, I'm willing to do that. I just making sure that the priorities are there. If that's pushing back, I don't mean to push back, but you know.

• 1:15:01Ramit Sethi?

  Well, I think right now you have thirty one thousand dollars a year in retirement.

• 1:15:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:06Ramit Sethi?

  And that's if the two of you combine your income.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:13Ramit Sethi?

  I don't personally really mind if it's subway or waitering or tutoring or a second. It doesn't matter to me. It's actually not my life where the money is going to affect it. It's yours. And that is why when you're asking me, what kind of job am I talking about? It's actually what you're trying to do unconsciously, although you don't realize it, is you're trying to delegate the problem back to me. You're tossing me the ball and I'm actually tossing it right back to you. I don't know. If you want to work at Subway, you want to work at the mall. If you want to tutor, it's up to you. Because you and the two of you will be the ones who experience the after effects of your decisions right now.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  When school starts, we could pick up the weekend tutors.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, if there are some at your school, I'd prefer that because honestly, you know, I don't want to be at home with a fourteen year old by myself like all evening. Sorry, man, not doing it. So the parenting is a tough job and it takes like all the dedication and ultimately she isn't my child. So like a lot of the decision making isn't mine. So if I'm the only one here all the time, it doesn't work that well.

• 1:16:24Ramit Sethi?

  I'm sorry, but if you're in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, you don't get to ponder the finer points of work-life balance. I am genuinely mystified right now. All I can think about is all the immigrant parents I know who came to America and did whatever it took to be able to become financially stable. I remember recently I was in Atlanta doing a live event. My Lyft driver picked me up and he looked back, he goes, "Ramit, safety." He knew who I was, he recognized me. He was an economist in Ethiopia, and he now drives a Lyft while listening to podcasts to learn how finance works in America. He was an economist, now he drives a Lyft. I think about the Indian parents who work at a gas station,

• 1:17:06Ramit Sethi?

  or the Chinese family who runs a restaurant with their kids seven days a week. And if you ask them about work-life balance, they would say, "What? That's the world I grew up in. Our work ethic was insane because it had to be. That was the only way we could do it." Now I love balance. Life is different now, but it would only be possible because of what I learned from my parents and all the other people surrounding us as kids. I appreciate balance, but my definition of hard work is completely different. Like if you told me right now, "Ramit, you're gonna die in poverty unless you make more money this week." My answer would be very simple. Get out of my way, I'm gonna figure it out right now. I'm not talking about work-life balance when the stakes are this high. Thad doesn't have that urgency,

• 1:17:49Ramit Sethi?

  and I don't think he truly understands the situation he's in. What's scarier is even if he did understand it, that doesn't mean he would be successful in changing. But in order to even have a shot at being successful, you have to recognize the severity of your situation. You have to be honest. The next difficult subject that we're gonna tackle is something I have been waiting for a long time, for hours to unpack with them. It's one of the major cracks in their financial foundation. Do you know what I'm referring to? Let's take a look. Look at the difference in income and look at the way that you have split your fixed costs. What do you notice?

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  We, we had, we just had a conversation about this not too long ago about like-

• 1:18:29Ramit Sethi?

  Just tell me what you noticed.

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  It's not balanced.

• 1:18:32Ramit Sethi?

  Exactly.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  It's equal, like it was being equal, but they're not making the same amount of money.

• 1:18:36Ramit Sethi?

  You make a lot more at that and you are paying 50%.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:40Ramit Sethi?

  Which is great for you, but very onerous and difficult for Christine.

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:46Ramit Sethi?

  So you all talked about it. What was your conclusion?

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  Well, we didn't. We just kind of noticed that, as I say, since that disparity is kind of new with this, this year. The, now that we are aware of that, it had been lopsided before the other way, I think.

• 1:19:01Ramit Sethi?

  You guys make decisions when you talk about money?

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  We talk, we don't.

• 1:19:05Ramit Sethi?

  No, you don't. You're not even making them right now. When you're faced with poverty in old age, you're still not, you're just talking around it. The question is, what do you notice about how your expenses are related to how much your income is? Which Thad answered, I appreciate it. And then he said, well, we had a conversation about this. We've been talking about this. Okay. What did you decide?

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Nothing. Yeah.

• 1:19:30Ramit Sethi?

  Couples who are successful with money make decisions and they make them fast. Couples who are unsuccessful with money, talk about it over and over and over again, and they never make decisions. Which one are you?

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Well, clearly we're the latter, but like, I don't feel like I have the power to drive this decision because I'm the one that makes the least amount of money.

• 1:19:50Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, the person who makes less money has less power? Who said that? Or is that just a story?

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  That's what Thad said, because he used to make less than me and he refused to do a percentage split out of expenses. So now that we have disparate incomes the other direction, I surely can't ask for percentage breakouts.

• 1:20:10Ramit Sethi?

  Why not? Why can't you?

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Because he refused to do it. So now like, it doesn't feel fair.

• 1:20:16Ramit Sethi?

  He, let me make sure I understand this. Thad refused to do percentage based breakouts when he was making less?

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:23Ramit Sethi?

  Even though that would have been advantageous to him.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:20:26Ramit Sethi?

  And you have said, surely I cannot bring up proportional payments. Why?

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  I said, hey, I noticed that I make a lot less money than you and I'm still paying half of everything. And, and he said, oh yeah, I noticed that too.

• 1:20:44Ramit Sethi?

  That's not bringing it up. What, what is that? Hey, everybody, I noticed the sky is blue today.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:49Ramit Sethi?

  That doesn't mean that I feel like eating soup. That has nothing to do with it. When you bring it up, what do you want? Christine, I can tell that you often have trouble asking specifically for what you want. Right?

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  I, I didn't think so, but I guess that might be true.

• 1:21:05Ramit Sethi?

  What do you want when you bring that up? Why are you bringing it up?

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  Well, because I noticed it was a reason that my credit cards can't get paid down faster because I don't have, it doesn't fully guide the access money every month, every pay even.

• 1:21:17Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that's correct. You're right. Your instinct is exactly right. This is not fair. You're not even married.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  I know. But that's more the reason why it should be half and half. We're not married. We have to like shoulder the burdens of each, of like our own stuff.

• 1:21:33Ramit Sethi?

  There is an argument to be made for the fact that you are not married. So there are certain differences that you might have. Whereas when you are married, at least in my opinion, you should combine as much as possible.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:47Ramit Sethi?

  But can I just say, Christine? It is not fair or feasible to have one person with 78% fixed costs. And the other person with 50%. But you still haven't asked that for what you want.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Well, but I can't ask him for what I want. It's not my money.

• 1:22:05Ramit Sethi?

  When I married my wife. My lifestyle was much more expensive than hers. Okay? I had a bigger apartment. Spent more on food and that kind of thing.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:19Ramit Sethi?

  If I had 50/50 with her, it would have financially drowned her.

• 1:22:27Ramit Sethi?

  It wouldn't have been fair to her. That, I hope you're listening very carefully because you are me in this situation.

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't think it's fair.

• 1:22:35Ramit Sethi?

  I did not wait for her to cry.

• 1:22:38Speaker 03

  Well, we're not married.

• 1:22:40Ramit Sethi?

  The marriage part is irrelevant to this.

• 1:22:42Speaker 03

  I don't think it is.

• 1:22:44Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, tell me, you believe Christine that because you're not married, you should have to pay 50/50?

• 1:22:48Speaker 03

  Yes, that's what we've agreed to. So like, I don't see how we change that because like, I can't say, "Well, it's not my money, but give it to me so I can pay my bills."

• 1:22:58Ramit Sethi?

  Paying proportionally does not mean that he gives you money. That's not how it works. Christine, what I notice again is, I'm trying to really, I'm actually trying to help you, Christine, financially, and you are pushing back inexplicably. I don't think you even know why you're pushing back. I'm trying to help you right now.

• 1:23:16Speaker 03

  I know you are, and I appreciate that, but it's not my money to ask for, so I'm not going to.

• 1:23:22Ramit Sethi?

  You're not asking for anybody to give you money. That is not going to write you a check.

• 1:23:27Speaker 03

  Well, then he would put more into the household account so that we would have more money to pay our bills.

• 1:23:32Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, and you would put less because you earn less. Like, I pay a lot more taxes than you. I make a lot more, so I can afford to do that. Do you see that?

• 1:23:43Speaker 03

  I do.

• 1:23:44Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think about that?

• 1:23:45Speaker 03

  I don't know what I think because, and when this situation was reversed, he said no. And so it doesn't feel like, now that the situation is the way it is now, that I can ask.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  I've never flatly refused to say that. Wasn't gonna do that. We brought this up. I didn't say I wasn't gonna, the portion of that, I wasn't even asked. I just don't like being characterized as like, unresponsive, refusing to do it, you know, like not sharing the money. Like, every dollar I have goes to this household, except for the money that I wasted. And I fessed up to that, and I'm willing to do it now. Yeah, but I mean, I'm not the bad guy here.

• 1:24:22Ramit Sethi?

  Christine? What do you take from that?

• 1:24:25Speaker 03

  I guess he's willing to split it proportionally, but um, I in fairness, honey, I never said that you wouldn't. I just didn't ask because you didn't do it when the situation was reversed.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, no, that's, yeah, I'm not refusing to do anything. Like, I am 100% supportive of you as much as I can with everything.

• 1:24:46Ramit Sethi?

  Do you realize that that is offering to do this and you're refusing to take the help, which would?

• 1:24:53Speaker 03

  I didn't refuse to take the help. I said, it sounds like he'll do it, so.

• 1:24:57Ramit Sethi?

  Christine, I understand that, but Christine, I want you to understand your own behavior right now. There have been several occasions where Thad has not pushed back. He's like, take the NFL, I don't care. You refused at first.

• 1:25:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:25:10Ramit Sethi?

  You are being drowned financially. It's not fair, and you never asked for it because of a story you created in your head. Now, he hears it, he goes, yeah, fine. Are you willing to take the help?

• 1:25:22Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:25:23Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, love it. Great. This is what making decisions is about. This is hard. But this is also what I meant by we have to walk through the fire. We have to do this stuff. There's no other way around it. Look at what happens when I change the numbers in the CSP. Christine's gonna pay 40%, Thad is gonna pay 60%, and you're gonna see these numbers dramatically change. Take a look. Let's see here, 1290 for your portion of the rent. That's down from 1600 bucks.

• 1:25:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:25:50Ramit Sethi?

  What does that mean to you, Christine?

• 1:25:51Speaker 03

  That I might have more money to pay my credit cards.

• 1:25:54Ramit Sethi?

  Exactly. You're gonna have more money. That's proportionality. Look at these numbers starting to adjust already. In your fixed costs, each of your individual costs are becoming a lot more rational. Christine, is your, your fixed cost, which used to be what, 78%?

• 1:26:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:10Ramit Sethi?

  They're down to 64%. What does that mean for you?

• 1:26:12Speaker 03

  I think it just feels better, like there's more money available. I was feeling really pinched.

• 1:26:19Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, because the lifestyle the two of you have is unsustainable. Thad, I want to check in with you. You, this means you're gonna be paying a lot more.

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  I mean, as long as I have money to pay for my daughter's stuff and then I need, you know, give me 40 bucks of paycheck so I can have fun, that's all I'm gonna do. I don't need any money for anything else. I don't do anything else. I don't have any other activities that I do that cost money.

• 1:26:41Ramit Sethi?

  That's awesome. I'll take the win and I think we can make proportionality work. What I actually want to hear and what I think Christine wants to hear is a deeper level of engagement. So this idea of like, whatever, as long as like I have a bill, that's actually not the level that I need you to be operating at with your money. You actually need to understand, oh my God, this now means I'm going to be paying X hundred dollars extra a month towards fixed costs, which means I'm not going to be able to have this much for guilt free spending, et cetera. That is the level of fluency that you need to have with your money at age 57 with almost nothing in retirement.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  That's what I just did though, right? Is that what I just did?

• 1:27:21Ramit Sethi?

  No, that's not what you did.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:24Ramit Sethi?

  I did promise to talk about what would happen if things don't change because this is a lot of changes. Like a lot of things have to go right in order for this to work.

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:35Ramit Sethi?

  So what if it doesn't?

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  I mean, clearly I think we'd have to, we already probably do have to move somewhere that's less expensive, a lot less expensive.

• 1:27:45Ramit Sethi?

  Fad, what if you get laid off?

• 1:27:48Speaker 02

  And no company, I'll get another job as a teacher.

• 1:27:51Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, let's say that you can't get another job that pays what you're making. You only get, you know, two thirds of what you're making.

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  Um, you know, cut costs and try to survive. I mean, like, I mean, worst case scenario is homeless shelter, right? I mean, it's probably the worst case scenario.

• 1:28:08Ramit Sethi?

  Have you been in a homeless shelter before?

• 1:28:12Speaker 02

  I have.

• 1:28:17Ramit Sethi?

  You never talked about worst case, did you?

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:28:21Speaker 02

  We talked about moving back and breaking it and like you have to move back to Cleveland or we can eat Pittsburgh.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we have discussed it just like kind of in passing, but um, you know, of course you hope it doesn't come to fruition. But um, sure, I think that's just kind of what would happen. I would have to move back home with my dad and my brother. I mean, I've already been laid off a number of times and have consistently gotten jobs with lower pay. So I mean, we've made it, but it was tough.

• 1:28:47Ramit Sethi?

  What about if we end this call and things look good for a week, you make some changes and then Fad, you stop following up, things kind of go back, Christine is chasing after you, you're avoiding.

• 1:29:04Ramit Sethi?

  What would you do then?

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  I don't know what I would do. I think I would just keep pressing forward with doing what I could with my own finances, trying to increase my retirement account, try and find some extra money for savings. You know, just do the best I could.

• 1:29:19Ramit Sethi?

  Thad, what would you do? If you weren't making progress on the things we talked about, Christine felt like she was trying to control you by asking every day, what would you do?

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  If, if we weren't gonna make it, if we weren't making it together, if we decided that we weren't gonna be able to move forward with this shared dream, you know, we've talked about like breaking up.

• 1:29:39Ramit Sethi?

  You two are not married.

• 1:29:42Ramit Sethi?

  You have different financial situations, although both are extremely concerning. And if I am each of you, I am saying, look, this is what I need in this relationship. Financially speaking, in order to be comfortable, in order to be comfortable to stay, in order to be comfortable to be married. And it's cut and dry. It's decisive. If both of you really dedicated yourself to earning more, and I think it's extremely possible. Not only could you save money, not only could you invest for retirement, I think you could make a pretty serious dent in your debt, but it would require extreme focus and it would require doing it as a team.

• 1:30:29Ramit Sethi?

  So that becomes the overriding goal, less about work-life balance. Just being very honest. And every additional dollar that you make, you would have a plan for how much goes into it. In part because I don't want you to end up in poverty in your old age. If you can do all of those things and you can both do it together,

• 1:30:51Ramit Sethi?

  I think you have a pretty good shot.

• 1:30:54Ramit Sethi?

  I feel

• 1:30:56Ramit Sethi?

  Nervous, really nervous because I know that you have a lot of changes to make. And I know what your future could hold. And trust me, I want the absolute best for you. My dream for you is that the two of you actually do this as a team, that you both see, oh, my God, we have a lot of changes to make with our money. We are going to do this as a mission. We're going to get our daughter involved. We are going to talk about this. And this is actually going to become something that is fun. Like, yes, it's going to be hard. Yeah, we have no cable anymore. That sucks. But we are doing this as a family unit.

• 1:31:37Ramit Sethi?

  And I am not sure if you two want that.

• 1:31:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I do want that, of course. I, I want to have financial stability. That's been my goal the whole time. And I just, I'm not sure. Just not sure we're going to get there.

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  I feel nervous about being able to remain committed to the things I've talked about tonight. I struggle with being honest. And if I'm not 100% in, then no matter, it's not going to work. I mean, and I kind of know that.

• 1:32:15Speaker 03

  It's really hard.

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  Well, I have to come to that conclusion. I have to change that mentality, you know? Do I want to go walk this journey with my partner and end up in an old age where we can live together? And, you know? And if it's going to work, then I'm willing to sort of put that in. It's going to be hard, though, but, you know? I'm willing to put that effort in.

• 1:32:34Ramit Sethi?

  We're going to get to their follow ups in just a second. But first I'd like to share a couple of thoughts. Here's what I suspect will happen. I think Christine and Thad will be motivated for a couple of weeks. I think they'll cut the NFL spending and they'll make some small, easy changes. But I suspect when it comes to the harder stuff, like redirecting guilt free spending and consistently saving and investing, that's where most people find it much harder. It's easy to nibble at the edges. You can open up an account, transfer 50 bucks. But the moment that something gets hard. A lot of people find it easy for the entire thing to derail. Now, I hope I'm wrong. My real dream is that they follow up next week and next month, and they surprise all of us. They make massive changes. They build huge momentum.

• 1:33:19Ramit Sethi?

  They realize they can actually go faster, and they get into this upward spiral with higher-paying jobs and attacking their debt. It's possible. I've seen it happen, and I would love if it happened here. Now, let's take a look at their follow-ups.

• 1:33:34Speaker 04

  So it's been three weeks since we talked to Ramit, and I just wanted to check in and let you know how that and I are doing. I would say that one of the biggest changes I've seen is that that is more engaged with our finances and is taking on a lot of responsibility for improving his own financial situation, which has gone a long way, I think, toward relieving some of the stress from me. And also, for making it seem like we're more equal partners in the finance conversation, rather than me leading the way 100% of the time. So we've been able to increase our emergency savings account by diverting money from canceled subscriptions

• 1:34:16Speaker 04

  and adding 90% of any extra money we earn from jobs or bonuses or things like that to the account. Also, we have agreed to restart our money talks soon. So I think probably next weekend, we'll have our first conversation in the new post-Ramit world. So I'm looking forward to that and continuing our work through this financial journey together. So thank you, Ramit. I appreciate all your help, and it's looking up for us. So yay.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  My biggest takeaway from our interview with Ramit is just how critical my retirement situation is in regard to the lack of money that I've saved for that. I think that Ramit termed it as a... Crisis situation, I'm inclined to believe him. I have changed that mentality and I've realized that I have to go with intentionality moving forward. Saving for retirement, saving for the future. Some of the action steps that we've taken since then, or I've taken since then is that I have up my retirement funds in for a paycheck. I have traded a savings fund for taxes and for house emergencies. And I've increased the amount of savings I put into our house.

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  I also in investigating my situation, I was able to find a retirement fund from a previous job, my previous job of $45,000. So that added to what I currently have. So that's been a benefit. We've cut about $80 in subscriptions, about five subscriptions. And that's been a proactive move. And to this date, we have not yet subscribed to the NFL package. And then just going forward, Chrissy and I are having conversations that are positive. It's been a great experience and I want to continue.

• 1:36:01Ramit Sethi?

  If you enjoyed this episode, here's one of my personal favorites that you should check out next. Thanks for watching.