Jesse Armstrong on the Making of ‘Mountainhead.’ Plus, Why ‘Stick’ Doesn’t Stick.

Chris and Andy talk about the news that ‘Presumed Innocent’ Season 2 will star Rachel Brosnahan and become an anthology series (02:23). Then they talk about the first episode of Apple TV+’s new golf show, ‘Stick,’ starring Owen Wilson, and why ultimately the pilot felt discombobulated (08:17). Finally, they are joined by ‘Succession’ creator Jesse Armstrong to talk about his new TV movie, ‘Mountainhead,’ and how he made it in under six months (22:25). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Jesse Armstrong Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro-football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:30Chris Ryan?

  This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Forget your wallet? It's all good, because with Apple Pay, you can pay with a simple tap of your iPhone, the wallet you never forget, at millions of places worldwide, including websites, apps, and anywhere you see the contactless symbol. Security is built in with Face ID, so you don't have to worry about your cards getting lost or stolen. And the best part? You still earn the card rewards, points, and cash back you love. So say goodbye to the billfold, add your card to Apple Wallet, and start paying the Apple way. Terms apply.

• 2:04Speaker 04

  Stand up and walk now.

• 2:07Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com and joining me on the other line, Apple TV has convinced him to take up golf. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 2:21Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think they could do what you could never do?

• 2:24Chris Ryan?

  Um.

• 2:25Andy Greenwald?

  Do you really think that? Come on.

• 2:26Chris Ryan?

  To dig deep and find your, find your inner, inner swing. I mean, you gotta get your swing thoughts together. That's the number one thing.

• 2:33Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that my refusal to engage with golf is, is payback for your refusal to engage in the films of Miyazaki?

• 2:42Chris Ryan?

  I think you've, you've always been hard out on golf, even before anime. Greenwald, today we have a very special guest. We'll get right into that soon. Jesse Armstrong has joined us today to talk about his film, Mountain Head, and just to do a little bit of a general catch up. We've had Jesse on the show several times when Succession was a going concern and we were so excited to have him back to talk about the remarkable turnaround from screenplay to air. It was just a matter of months for Mountain Head and the film seems to become more prescient as the days go on. Andy, it was a great conversation. We're so happy to have him back on.

• 3:17Andy Greenwald?

  I don't want to step on our conversation, but I do want to note in advance that if people are tuning into it, just to find out if you finally confessed your feelings about the Succession finale to the Succession creator, you did not. You did not. You are still keeping those pretty close to the chest.

• 3:31Chris Ryan?

  I did confess my feelings last time he was on. I just haven't confessed them to you or our listeners.

• 3:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, you were like, it was great.

• 3:41Chris Ryan?

  Andy, I had a couple of things at the top for you here today. Number one was a little bit of news out of, and we're going to talk briefly about Apple TV's new show, Stick, but I had another Apple TV note for you, which is that Presumed Innocent is coming back. We had heard bits and pieces about this and how Apple was not done with Presumed Innocent, even if the characters from the first season of the show perhaps were done with it. This new iteration of the show is going to star Rachel Brosnahan, soon to be seen as Lois Lane in James Gunn's Superman movie. It's based on, not a Scott Teroux novel,

• 4:17Andy Greenwald?

  This is interesting.

• 4:19Chris Ryan?

  But rather, a soon to be published, or yet to be published thriller by an author named Joe Murray. I'm interested, let's have more legal thrillers on TV, yada, yada. But my thing, the thing I wanted to ask you about, is, is this Apple's first foray into American X story? Basically, FX's prolific franchise that Ryan Murphy oversees, that is basically a clearinghouse for his genre storytelling, whether it's true crime, or horror, or what have you, and has now become, you know, American love story, and American this. And it's basically, he's able to get a bunch of different kinds of shows on the air by putting it under this umbrella. What do you think of Apple's sort of effort to anthologize Presumed Innocent as their

• 5:03Chris Ryan?

  legal thriller, vertical, maybe?

• 5:07Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think it's a smart theory. I think that it's probably not going to be the thing that you and I would most want from it, if it were up to us, which would be like, all the best legal thriller books, you know, that they can have a, take a go on. I think we've talked in the past, back when we've done episodes that are more speculative of like, what we'd like to see on TV. I think we basically spelled this out, like, there's a whole class of books written by different authors, mostly written in the 70s and 80s, mostly with cracked spines on the spinner rack at your local used bookstore at this point, that I feel like could be brought together under one title, so that people, you know, one television title that people could get used to and look forward to watching a certain type of entertainment.

• 5:47Chris Ryan?

  Right here. What are you guys doing?

• 5:48Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. Many of them are behind Chris right now, since he's recording from home. It's likely not going to be that, but I do appreciate the nimbleness of the thinking here, which is, we have a title that means something. And not just means something in terms of like, the trials and tribulations of Rusty Savage and his family, but Presumed Innocent is, more or less, for people like, you know, who are mildly literate, like, that's, that represents a type of legal thriller, potboiler, type of book you might read over the summer break. So, making an anthology series that grabs a lot of different books that might fit that, and putting it under one title, makes a lot of sense to me. I think the other type of anthology that it might be...

• 6:30Andy Greenwald?

  And this might even be the smarter play as a TV business goes is a David Kelly anthology. So in the announcement, I don't have in front of me, maybe you do, it does say who will be co-showrunning and AKA writing the show. It is not a full David E. Kelly production and also a lot of like legacy producers from the first season will continue to get their episodic credit like Scott Terrell and Jake Gyllenhaal, who presumably will not be too creatively involved in this.

• 6:55Chris Ryan?

  Probably not.

• 6:56Andy Greenwald?

  When we did our showrunner conversation, like the second and third acts of showrunners the other week, I think we mentioned David E. Kelly as a type of career that isn't necessarily repeatable and also how adaptable he's proven to be, that he used to be the guy that churned out 24 episodes of something every year that was thought provoking and quirky and fun. And now he's kind of the guy to prestige up or kind of mainstream down your cable or streaming series. And over the past few years, he's done, how many shows has he had his name on that is even affiliated with?

• 7:34Chris Ryan?

  About half a dozen, yeah.

• 7:36Andy Greenwald?

  And that's everything from, what was the Hugh Grant, Nicole Kidman, the Undoing? I feel like?

• 7:42Chris Ryan?

  Undoing, yeah.

• 7:43Andy Greenwald?

  I want to say was one and Big Little Lies, right? Is it David Kelly?

• 7:49Chris Ryan?

  I think he works on Nine Perfect Strangers, doesn't he?

• 7:51Andy Greenwald?

  Right. So he has become kind of a brand unto himself, but those are three different series that all had to like launch from the ground up and are on different services. This might be a smart way for Apple to be like, you know that thing you do where you make classy thrillers with fancy people? Just do it here. So that kind of makes sense to me. All of this said.

• 8:13Chris Ryan?

  Erika Lopez is the showrunner or co-showrunner.

• 8:16Andy Greenwald?

  All of that said, I do think you owe our listeners full transparency as to what you first thought when you read the press release about season two casting.

• 8:24Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, sure. I was slightly taken aback because I thought this series stirred Rachel Bloom.

• 8:32Chris Ryan?

  I just, I got

• 8:33Andy Greenwald?

  Of my crazy ex-girlfriend? Was that the?

• 8:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yes. I just didn't peg her as necessarily as doing an erotic legal thriller, but here we go. You know, like.

• 8:44Andy Greenwald?

  For what it's worth, Rachel Brosnahan gives big, I want to be in an erotic legal thriller vibes. I just feel like there's some actors who just, that's, that's what they put out and I think that's good for her.

• 8:54Chris Ryan?

  It's also fascinating to me that, you know, Sean and Amanda and our pod, the big picture in their watch seemed to have like this cross pod conversation about TV actors, movie actors, choices that people make from one film to a series to a film to whatever their, their choices are. And, uh, and I think it says something about the current sort of landscape that the person who is the, uh, second lead of a Superman movie is, is like, okay, I'm going to do a series after that.

• 9:23Andy Greenwald?

  Sure. I mean, also, listen, I think everybody here understands the second Superman movie isn't promised anymore. You know what I mean? It's tough out here for everybody. Uh, I also liked the way you framed it, that there's a cross conversation between two distinct podcasts. Like if only there was a swing voter that could speak to the constituencies of both podcasts, perhaps he could unite the feeds.

• 9:44Chris Ryan?

  I try, I try my best.

• 9:46Andy Greenwald?

  You do.

• 9:46Chris Ryan?

  Um, let's talk briefly about stick. The first three episodes went up on Apple. This is a show from Jason Keller starring Owen Wilson and Marc Maron about, uh, a down on his luck pro golfer, working as like a club fitter at a, at a sporting goods store, just kind of bumming around, who comes across a golf prodigy, 17 year old, hot-headed golf prodigy named Santi, uh, and decides to take him on a, a road trip of qualification tournaments and, and junior tournaments as he likes, tries to ride this kid to the, to the sort of stratospheric levels of fame that you, you would associate with like say a Tiger

• 10:26Chris Ryan?

  Woods or a Jordan Spieth or something like that. Um, this show has, uh, a really good kind of elevator pitch, which is essentially Ted Lasso meets Tin Cup. Um, I, I really enjoyed the first season of Ted Lasso. I love Tim. I also play golf and think a lot about golf, consume a lot of golf content, which actually weirdly might make me a little bit outside of the target audience for this show in a strange way. I think sometimes I get very fired up for stuff that is playing to my interests. And sometimes those are the very things that I find tonally a little bit off or fall a little bit flat for me. I really enjoy Owen Wilson, and I really enjoy Marc Maron, and I think that there's some

• 11:11Chris Ryan?

  stuff to like. And there's nothing like offensively bad about a series where Judy Greer and Owen Wilson are sharing scenes together.

• 11:17Andy Greenwald?

  Totally.

• 11:20Chris Ryan?

  There are points in the show where I'm like,

• 11:24Chris Ryan?

  I just feel like they like missed a beat with like, some of the things that make golf funny or interesting or lively or a place where someone might spend a ton of time. And it kind of almost feels like they plugged in something into like a pre-existing idea. They're like, and what if he plays golf? But didn't take it that much further. There's a scene in the second episode where Wilson is giving Santi a lesson. Wilson plays a guy named Price, is giving Santi a lesson in doing a club fitting, which is where you like, basically are seeing how the person swings and adjusting their clubs, size wise and loft wise and all these different things to fit their game. And

• 12:07Chris Ryan?

  I am pretty sure Owen Wilson like, probably likes golf.

• 12:12Chris Ryan?

  But it doesn't seem like he's familiar with it. Like, he says the words, he says that, like, but it doesn't, he doesn't like say them the way people say them. Do you know what I mean?

• 12:21Andy Greenwald?

  What do you mean?

• 12:22Chris Ryan?

  Like launch angle, like, he just kind of like, it feels like he's kind of memorized them. And I also have memorized them. I don't really know what my launch angle is. But like, do you understand what I'm saying where it's, you're kind of like, these feel, this feels like something you're reading rather than living.

• 12:41Andy Greenwald?

  And but you're, but I'm not disagreeing with anything that is critical about the show. But like, do you think that's a performance issue? Or are you saying that?

• 12:50Chris Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 12:51Andy Greenwald?

  Schematics of the show, the golf being the exoskeleton feels.

• 12:58Andy Greenwald?

  Added, meaning like Santi could have been avoiding any sport because of a connection to his late father for the tear jerking reasons why he's turned his back on his destiny.

• 13:07Chris Ryan?

  Well, there's a really good, I mean, I think that the tension that they've kind of come across, which is that like lots of people have the physical tools or the talent to play golf. It's really, are you able to deal with failure on a individual and constant level?

• 13:22Andy Greenwald?

  This is why I don't do it. I have all the physical tools.

• 13:25Chris Ryan?

  And it is, there is like that feeling of like, you will hit a good shot and just be like, I've truly, I've fixed my swing.

• 13:32Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 13:32Chris Ryan?

  I have gone to heaven. I should join the corn fairy and try to qualify for the US Open. And then the next shot you hit will break a window. And you're like, oh, I guess I forgot how to play golf. Like that is, the margins that you're playing with are really slim. And they get to, they get at that. So I'm not trying to say that they have no familiarity with the game, or that the show doesn't seem to understand the sport. But there was like, even there's some shots, um, when they first take Santi out on the course, Marc Maron's character is sort of like this wizened old, you know, golf coach. Is he an agent? I can't remember. He's a kind of a-

• 14:09Andy Greenwald?

  He ends up being the caddy.

• 14:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, caddy. So he's like, just a guy around the game. And they take Santi out on the course to see how he hits. Marc Maron's this reluctant participant in this whole thing. And they shoot a lot of the scenes, uh, with a very shallow depth of field so that the only thing really in focus are the people. And so you don't really even get like a sense of the environment. And like, one of the things that's interesting about golf courses is that like municipal courses are really like beat up and kind of like played through and like, they don't get like as much care as like private courses, but they have a lot of personality and there's lots of different people out there playing golf. And like, you just feel like they shot it. I know they didn't shoot it on the volume, but it feels kind of anonymous to me.

• 14:54Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's a very well observed criticism. And also sort of insight into the type of show that either Apple wants it to be, or that Jason Keller felt comfortable making it. You know, and there's an argument to be made, too, that it is a challenge when you're starting something from scratch, if this is an original idea, that, you know, you want to make sure that the aperture isn't too wide because you want to be able to build at least a few characters, let alone, you know, too many. The flip side of that would be some of our criticisms about Your Friends and Neighbors, which felt way too broad and not very deep. This show definitely spends a lot of time on its primary characters. By the way, side note, I don't think, I appreciated what you just said about the way golf makes you feel.

• 15:36Andy Greenwald?

  I feel like podcasting gives me that same momentary high and despairing low, where I feel like I'm good at it for one episode and then, you know, Severance comes back for season two and I'm just in a K-hole of my own making for 10 weeks. So I think I'm good. I don't need to go on the course with you. My feelings about the show kind of, golf aside, kind of track with what you're saying.

• 16:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I wanted to know as somebody who's not a stick man, you know, like.

• 16:03Andy Greenwald?

  I have no ill will in my heart towards the show whatsoever. Sometimes I get my dander up about the darndest things, but like Owen Wilson, Marc Maron, and Judy Greer, all of whom I love, getting a paycheck, having a relaxed, lived-in opportunity to do a performance, I'm pretty good with that.

• 16:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Owen Wilson making jokes about the Hurt Locker, like, I'm totally fine with it. I think I'm just, I'm just picking a nit because I'm like, oh, wow, like, I actually, this is actually about something I know a little bit about, so it's a little bit funny to see it, yeah.

• 16:36Andy Greenwald?

  Like The Wire, season five. But the, just like The Wire, season five. The criticism that I do want to bring up is a broader criticism about the Apple project, which good shows come out on Apple. We talk about them and we really enjoy them. Very good shows tend to come out from Apple's European or UK arm.

• 17:04Andy Greenwald?

  The sense that I get, I want to be clear, based on nothing. I have not met there, I have not developed there, I don't talk to people who do with any regularity. The sense I get there is that it is, and maybe you can give me like a good sports analogy for this, about like certain teams that operate this way. If you show up knowing exactly what you want to do and can execute on it, you can probably get away with something pretty special because they have a lot of money and they will back you. If you show up there in need of coaching or a developmental process, it does seem, like Santi, if I may, it does seem like you're entering into a different kind of arena.

• 17:41Andy Greenwald?

  Because, much like your friends and neighbors, the stick pilot begins four separate times. It meanders through, I don't know, what's the analogy, 36 holes? Like, it is over 40-plus minutes. I am not here, I want to be very clear, I'm not here to give notes or say that I could do better, I'm just saying that while watching this pilot, there were scenes, like the opening scene of the show, which is a montage of golf greatness that Owen Wilson is monologuing to, and then it cuts to him basically upselling a rando suburban dad on a club he probably doesn't need, is a very well-executed opening scene to a pilot.

• 18:26Andy Greenwald?

  15 or so, well, I'm probably being dramatic, 8 to 11 minutes later, there is another pretty effective opening scene, where Owen Wilson is at a bar drinking, and Marc Maron in his first appearance starts heckling him, saying, "Didn't you used to be somebody?", and then he ends up, you know, showing that he's still somebody by putting at the bar, missing it, and then you realize they're in on it together, they run this scam to get money. And I'm like, "Oh, that's a pretty good introductory scene to these characters in this world."

• 18:55Andy Greenwald?

  In between these scenes, there's Owen Wilson coming home and Judy Greer is there. And we learn that they used to be married, information that is conveyed in a secondary scene where they meet at her lawyer's office. After that, there's a scene where he cleans the pool, but before that listens to classic rock, gets really high and dances around. I think I kind of got the vibe that he was a dude who liked to puff a jay, if you'll, if you know what I mean, fellow kids. Like, that wasn't information that I really needed at that moment. So, the charms of the show, from my experience watching it, are just really muted and muffled by just too muchness. Like, you made the sale. This could be just an enjoyable, emotional Ted Lasso-y kind of half-hour enterprise.

• 19:39Andy Greenwald?

  And it's just packed to the gills with extra, extra stuff that leaves me feeling, it's not bored, it just leaves me feeling kind of squished and deadened in a way that is not my preferred way to, to deal with TV. Do you know what I mean? It ends up in this sort of squishy streaming era, we have big stars and we have 46 minutes, so we're gonna use all of them, as opposed to like a super tight 28. And we get it, because, guys, it's Owen Wilson as a failed golfer. He had me at hello, or at four, I guess would be the correct joke.

• 20:12Chris Ryan?

  Do you think that Owen Wilson is a failed golfer?

• 20:18Chris Ryan?

  Because, like, if you take Tin Cup, it's like, it's just a character study of this guy Roy, who famously flamed out, you know, and then has tried to rebuild his career. He's working at a driving range in Texas, and then he tries to qualify for the US Open again. You know, is the added element of, it's not only this guy's midlife crisis, his divorce, his crossroads, but he is now also the father figure for a kid. And, you know, inserting himself into this person. Like, it is an extra layer of cream cheese that I don't know. It's not that I do or don't want it. It's just like, it's a lot to kind of juggle. Like you're saying, there's eight characters already, you know, where you're like, oh, okay. So this is this person's line. This is this person's line.

• 21:02Andy Greenwald?

  There's not a, I don't feel like there's a bad intention bone in the show's body. So I'm not here to, to, to bury it for that reason. I don't, I didn't find it cynical. I found it kind of, kind of sweet, but there is a, and maybe the way to look at the, the, the point I'm about to make is through the lens of what you were saying, like, there's just a lot of, a lot of mouths to feed here, both in terms of literally characters, but also um, the things that it wants to accomplish and what it wants to talk about. It, there's just not necessarily room to individuate or, or distinguish what makes some of these people particularly appealing or special. There, there's a great tradition, like, I'm not going to pretend this is only in recent TV, like, just in American entertainment

• 21:45Andy Greenwald?

  of shows about frustrating yet lovable man children who really should learn their lesson, but oh, their ex wives just can't quit them. And Friends and Neighbors was one of those. Landman is one of those. Switch is one of those. Sorry, Switch Stick is one of those. And it's like, it feels a little arrested to me. Like, I, I think, again, I'm not pitching, you know, Breaking Bad on the live tour, but I do think like a guy who's fallen on tougher times, it could still be a comedy, but it could have some element of stakes or peril to it. It doesn't have to be squishy, but the show is, the show is squishy. And again, that might be

• 22:29Andy Greenwald?

  something that Apple wants. Apple things, and I don't know whether it's because of the lack of notes, the lack of editing, but they do drift towards squish when left unattended. And when it comes to Ted Lasso, a show that didn't work for me because of the squishiness, it's clearly successful. They, when it comes to a show like Shrinking, which I, from everything I've heard, improved a lot and might be, everything I understand about Shrinking, and I apologize for not engaging with it past the first few episodes of the first season, suggests that it is more worthy than this kind of backhanded comments that I'm making about it. But the reason that I didn't stick with it is because it did seem to really still be operating in a key of squish. Um, that's not for me, but there is an audience for that.

• 23:11Chris Ryan?

  So I would just recommend if people are looking for a sports company to be watching right now, it's never too late to get into Shorezy. That's the entire series is streaming on Hulu. And honestly, like as sitcoms go, newly released sitcoms, the second season of Tires is really good on Netflix. So I have those, those two recommendations to make. Andy, we should get into our interview with Jesse. We talked about Mountain Head a couple of weeks ago when it was released. So you can go back and listen to our conversation there. But it was great to get his insights into the filmmaking process, the writing process, and also the process of, of diving deep into this world of sort of the technological vanguard and, and people who are making decisions that obviously have a lot of consequences.

• 23:55Speaker 06

  Ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease symptoms, don't pause for the moments that matter. That's why understanding your treatment options matters. Discover what's possible with Tremfya. Guselkumab. Tremfya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Talk to your doctor and explore what's possible, or call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more about Tremfya and visit tremfyaradio.com.

• 24:40Speaker 07

  FanDuel is now available everywhere in the U.S.

• 24:48Speaker 07

  So you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are, including these places.

• 24:58Speaker 07

  Make this your most rewarding season ever with FanDuel. Age and location restrictions apply. Product availability varies by market. See FanDuel.com for eligibility. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER.

• 25:10Speaker 08

  This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. You know what I love about football season? It's the football, but also the football watching food. And nothing hits like a Boar's Head sandwich when I'm watching a game. Really, any game day sandwich better with Boar's Head. Philly cheesesteak, layer up buttery slider rolls with Boar's Head London broil roast beef, American white cheese and picante provolone. Delicious. Then add roasted onions, peppers and Boar's Head pub style horseradish sauce. I love horseradish and you've got the ultimate game day cheesesteak. They've also got a whole lineup of premium meats, cheeses, hummus and dips, condiments and more to serve up on game day. Head to your local Boar's Head deli counter to shop now for game day sandwich inspiration and more, visit boar'shead.com. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

• 25:54Speaker 09

  This episode is brought to you by Petivity. Cat parents are basically mealtime detectives. Who actually ate? Did they finish? Was that less than yesterday? The new Petivity Smart Feeder for cats turns everyday meals into meaningful health insights, helping you identify changes in your cat's habits and be more proactive about their health. Plus, you can feed them from anywhere. Take the mystery out of mealtime. Visit petivity.com, P E T I V I T Y dot com slash cat feeder to learn more.

• 26:23Andy Greenwald?

  Chris and I are delighted to be joined once again, and unfortunately, once again remotely, by the great Jesse Armstrong. Jesse, thank you so much. We were so happy to talk to you for the Succession series finale two years ago. And now you've joined us for the America series finale, which is very kind.

• 26:42Speaker 10

  Yeah, well, I'm very sad not to be here, not to be with you. You know, we're all in LA today, but separated by military forces.

• 26:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, so on that, I think that seems a good place to start in our conversation about Mountain Head, a film that Chris and I both really, really enjoyed. As you said, we are speaking to you remotely today, despite being in the same city, because our offices are currently closed due to a government escalated clash. There are fake images of our city, which you are currently in. It's fine, you can go get a matcha latte right now if you want. Fake images are being manipulated, spread through the internet, further inflaming tensions. And all of this is perhaps to distract from an embarrassing tech bro catfight between the richest man in the world and the president of the United States. That said, how are you feeling, writer?

• 27:30Speaker 10

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that's good. That's very well written. There's, there's, there's a lot to unpack in there. What, what do, I think the only thing I've got that I would say semi seriously is I guess I'm not, I don't feel like a very, I'm not intending to be a kind of technological soothsayer. I haven't got the level of knowledge. I'm not embedded in the tech and the way it's developing. The, you know, the kind of tech element of the, of the man head story, which is essentially a backdrop.

• 28:08Speaker 10

  It's not a completely crazy hypothesis that there could be a collision between information, manipulation and political crises and street demonstrations. But yeah, that's the kind of, that's the backdrop. That's the black mirrorry bit that could have been the jumping off point for a Charlie Brooker film. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm interested in that bit, but I feel deeply or as uninformed as probably most other citizens.

• 28:42Chris Ryan?

  I was curious if Andy alluded to this with his first question, Jesse. We want to talk to you about a bunch of different elements of this film. But what are some of the challenges for you, especially as you live in the weeks after its release? Like of making prescient art or making maybe art that is obviously very much of the moment? Because I've, I've been very fascinated to read some of the responses that maybe take issue with, you know, like, oh, it wouldn't be like this. It's actually like this. Or clearly it's over, you know, overstating something for the sake of satire. Whereas I, I kind of find this film disturbingly unsatirical in points. But when you're considering making something that's obviously going to feel like,

• 29:27Chris Ryan?

  you know, hot button keywords are, are, are coming up. Like, what are some of the things you're thinking about when it, when it comes to the contemporaneousness of the art you're making?

• 29:36Speaker 10

  Luckily, that stuff doesn't come and maybe audiences find it too pat or too easy. That stuff doesn't come too hard to me. I think, you know, I worked on the thick of it. A little tiny bit on Veep and a lot on In the Loop, the political film that was, came out with Armando, Out of That World, political satire. And I guess. Kind of a little bit of geopolitical or political world building. I find easy to imagine. I don't need too much information about the practicalities of how the technology is going to develop to provide a, you know, what I hope is a reasonable

• 30:16Speaker 10

  playing field of of expectations. The the your question about like, what are you? Is it? I don't find there's a particular anxiety about writing in this like political cultural munge that we're all living in right now. Right. And you you throw 100 darts at the dartboard of of current events. And I'm not trying to hit a bullseye of like, boom, you know, if the events of Mountain Head happen tomorrow, which I don't think they would, I would not feel pleased. Because that's not the that's not my I'm not try. It's not a prediction game. What I'm interested in is the psychology of the of the men portrayed. That's not to say

• 30:59Speaker 10

  there's not some kind of fun to be had, you know, sort of in the way of like down the pub, talking with friends about like, oh, wow, that thing was a bit like the real thing that happened. Do that. Those things are kind of, they fluoresce a bit, don't they? When you when when something aligns in the world and in fiction. But but I guess it's a much more general sense of sense of the of the nounness which you're trying to capture. So, yeah, I don't I don't get too anxious about whether we've got it right. You know, I remember this is a long answer, but when we were making the film, people were like, oh, this is so, you know, sometimes people as a in a in a in a encouraging way say, oh,

• 31:40Speaker 10

  this is so like, so prescient, you know, we were doing Doge was happening. And in a fact, in a way, like, Doge really isn't evidently predicted in the film or suggested. The group of tech guys, we have portrayed a rather sequestrated away from government. And that was when the, you know, that was the period when the film was conceived and when it was written. And and guess what? Doge has has indeed fizzled out in the since.

• 32:08Andy Greenwald?

  So I think we all agree, the events of Mountain Head aren't likely to happen tomorrow or next week. But when they do happen after Labor Day, how many texts will you be sending? Just like with a part of your brain being like, I told you so. And who is receiving those texts?

• 32:24Speaker 10

  Yeah, I just don't think any, well, I hope nothing like that happens. If I had to put a bet on it, I would think probably not. I don't think, you know, we are seeing amazing image generation and news report generation capabilities. I think we, human beings are so subtle and quick to adapt to change. I think we'll probably stay just ahead of the curve, which is where we need to be. So, so, yeah, and, and, you know, when, when things have gone dreadfully wrong in that regard, like they did for Facebook in Myanmar. It is, as I think somebody says in the, in the, in the film, it tends to be where technology hits in a market

• 33:05Speaker 10

  or a nation where people aren't quite keyed into how fast the tech is moving. Or, or in that case, they didn't have the moderators to be anywhere near as quick as they needed to be.

• 33:18Andy Greenwald?

  So, Jesse, you did allude to a moment ago to that when you were making the film, Doge was happening. This is a subtle way of saying that you made this movie like two months ago. And to the point where Chris and I got an email, like anyone on the HBO press release got an email saying, you know, and then coming in the spring, Jesse Armstrong's debut film, blah, blah, blah. And Chris texted me and he said, is Jesse really putting out a film in eight weeks? And I said, it's a typo. I just absolute confidence that it would be the spring of 2026. That was not the case. So I wondered if you could just talk us a bit through the decision making that led to such an accelerated process. What was exciting about that for you? And then also what may have been, and I'll just throw a word out here, terrifying.

• 34:00Speaker 10

  Yeah, fear, it's a lot of fear, fear of like, not the specific technological, political moment.

• 34:10Speaker 10

  Moving on beyond the world that I wanted to write in the film. But like the cultural moment that you'd write some, that I'd write something that, that it did have a very clear relationship to now. And it would feel tired in that more general way that you sometimes get. So fear of missing that moment, fear that like, that I wouldn't be able to sort of direct a film. So I thought it'd be. Smart to sort of run at it with almost no time to breathe between the pitch and the and the casting and the hiring of the of the crew. And yeah, and and and a certain amount of excitement I have seen before around projects

• 34:52Speaker 10

  that you can get this kind of positive feedback loop between the anxiety constraints, drive to make the thing and the product itself that you get that you get this kind of feedback loop right of we haven't got enough time, we haven't got enough money, we haven't got enough space and nor do nor do some of the characters, I guess that they have plenty of money, but they don't have the space or time. So I quite like that being in the same boat as the characters feeling if you can if you can kind of manipulate it.

• 35:26Chris Ryan?

  Were the was the cast appraised of and on board with and even energized by this quick turnaround time? Because typically for for an actor, I'm sure that they're like, oh, I sign on for something and it takes a year, if not way more, for that to ever reach an audience. Was there something energizing about everybody, everybody's participation in something that would hit hit the market so fast?

• 35:50Speaker 10

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, mostly it was a case of of being on set and being and not being able to believe what we would, how quickly we were going to try and achieve, especially the pre-production, the post-production elements. In a way, the shoot was short, like 22 days, but it wasn't crazy for a play-like film in one in basically one location. So the the days were fine, we didn't go too long or that pressure wasn't great. But yeah, it was it was it was weird to think it was going to be on TV like a month after we after we about no, two months after we wrapped. So I I think the the biggest practical hurdle was it is a kind of play-like script and there were just a lot of words for the actors to learn who, you know, some of them only

• 36:34Speaker 10

  had, you know, like three weeks, well, they all of them only had two weeks of a locked script to learn, so that was tough.

• 36:41Andy Greenwald?

  Who and who is responsible for that? So many words. God, I name, name and shame him.

• 36:48Chris Ryan?

  Jesse, the director, be like, do you believe I have to work with this shit? Jesse, the writer.

• 36:56Andy Greenwald?

  So Jesse, you had, on the list of executive producers are some very talented and very familiar names from anyone who's a fan of Succession. Frank Rich, Lucy Prebble, John Brown, Tony Roach, Will Tracy, even Mark Mylod, who was the directing producer of the show, are all there. How did you utilize that unique and uniquely gifted brain trust in the development of the film? And I guess as a follow-up, like, how did you communicate to them, the veterans of Succession, what was different about this project?

• 37:26Speaker 10

  Yeah, I just used them all to kind of, well, lots of different ways, but basically to assuage that fear of like, oh, I've pitched this, Casey Bloiz at HBO has said, yes, this timeline is tight. Can we do it? Is it a good idea? So like, I checked in early with Frank Rich, who was a director on Succession, like, you know, is this doable? Is this a good idea? Mylod was the director of many of the best episodes of Succession, and I sought his advice about whether he thought I could do it, and like, lots of practical things, what pencils he used on set to write his notes, a bunch of stuff like that. And

• 38:04Speaker 10

  then those writer, executive producers, Lucy, Tony, John, and Will, I used very specifically A to like pitch them the idea early on, and like, please be honest with me, is this, do you think this is any good? And then we did a really short version of A Room, we did just one week, and where I went in with the whole story, really, but we then went through it, improved it, got a bunch of ideas, lines, bits and pieces, that then I was able to go away and write the script in this very short, I wrote the draft, first draft probably in 10 days, and then refined it over the next couple of weeks. So, yeah, they were all different, but they were all kind of...

• 38:46Speaker 10

  Reassuring touchstones to check in with about the viability of the project.

• 38:52Chris Ryan?

  I was wondering about your writing process because I think especially in something that felt like you alluded to, almost like a play because of the limited amount of settings within with the mountain head and you know, they're moving through this house, which is quite expansive, but for the most part, it's this forehander and they're all kind of on screen mostly at the same time. You know, there's, I love, I love, you know, harvesting anecdotes about screenwriting, like Aaron Sorkin talks about performing all the parts in his room and sometimes he'll take walks and he's doing the parts and he doesn't even know where he's walked to. He has these sort of fugue states. Other people, David Bilge lies down with a, you

• 39:32Chris Ryan?

  know, we used to lie down with his bad back and dictate. Do you, do you say these lines out loud? Do you bounce them off other people and have them, you know, how do you kind of find the inimitable rhythm that you've sort of developed as almost signature style?

• 39:47Andy Greenwald?

  Is there an audio track of you and Tony Roach going, "Kashogi, Kashogi"? Yeah, that'll work.

• 39:53Speaker 10

  No, I mean, there's a bunch of shards of funny lines, turns of phrase come out of the room that are there kind of in a document or in my brain to be inserted. But yeah, normally it's a, it's a, I'm a normal writer, screenwriter. I sit there and work and some of it feels very much like work. And if you had a camera, you'd see a lot of humming and whoring and sitting around, looking at the paper, looking out the window. And then occasionally you get, you know, you get the William Goldman hot streak and you feel, I can, I can lose myself for a little while. And I, I've always loved, I've always loved writing ensemble

• 40:38Speaker 10

  pieces. And I don't say the, I don't think I say the words out loud, but I do sometimes hit a nice little golden.

• 40:51Speaker 10

  Forty minutes, hour where I feel a little bit omniscient in the room and I know, I feel I know what everyone is thinking and what they would say and what their emotional position to the, usually it's an argument of some kind that's being chewed away. I can feel it happening live. And that's, that's the, that's the best part probably of all of my creative work is when you have, have those, those, those times. And, and, and yeah, so, so that's, that's what I'd say about that, I guess.

• 41:24Chris Ryan?

  That's really cool.

• 41:25Andy Greenwald?

  Question, so Chris asked about writing. I did want to ask about directing. You chose to direct this yourself. I was wondering your decision-making and thought process and wanting to do it. And then, once you got in the chair for it, what, what being in the director's chair made easier for you about the creative process? And what did you find maybe frustrating or challenging?

• 41:47Speaker 10

  Good. It's a good question. Yeah, I, I just wanted to give it a go. It's so interesting. And as you get more and more involved in filmmaking, TV and film, it's such a crucial role. So I wanted to try it on Succession. I felt rude to the brilliant, you know, Becky Martins, La Rina's, Scafarias, My Lod's, Andre, all these brilliant directors to, to, to wade in and say, I'll stand back. I think I, I think I've got it. I can, I can do this too. So I wanted to wait till it was another project. And this one was particularly amenable, maybe because it, it, I got gathered so many Succession people around. It's shot in a very succession way with two cameras, very practical lighting by the brilliant Marcel

• 42:32Speaker 10

  Ziskind, who, who was the DP. So it, it felt achievable by me. It didn't seem like a, a overreach when I said it that I, that I could do it. In terms of the, the being there on the day, yeah, you know, compared to being a showrunner, there's just a little bit more responsibility, you know, a, a showrunner can, can show up at nine PM and look at the, look at the props and the setup and be a, a, the annoying person who says, is that hat a bit big? And like, is that coffee machine the right? Whereas the director, you're the, you know, the, the people come up and ask you those questions, you're suddenly very protective and like, no, the coffee machine's fine. Step the fuck back. I just need to talk to the actors. So there's a certain, just extra level of practical engagement.

• 43:20Speaker 10

  I I really enjoyed it because after some initial anxiety about presenting myself as a director to illustrious actors, they were really nice. And I'm, you know, my, the only, the only thing I think I have on my side as a showrunner and as a director is I I try as much as I can never to bullshit anyone. If I, if I, and it gets easier the more, the more experienced you are, right? Because they sort of have a level of trust. So, so you're able to say, I don't know about more things. And it doesn't kind of pop that bubble of, um, of trust in you about the project, you know, you can say, I don't know about that. Actually, I had not thought about it. Let's talk about it together. And then hopefully eighty percent of things, ninety percent of things I have thought about and I've got

• 44:05Speaker 10

  a good answer. And, uh, or I've got an answer at least. So I guess that's the, that's the, that's the bit that I love is talking to the actors, working with the actors, and, and, and a little bit of then, um, enjoying with Marcel, um, almost pretending to be a director and looking at the frame.

• 44:22Chris Ryan?

  Some lens talk, right?

• 44:23Speaker 10

  That, a little bit of lens talk, nodding knowledgeably. And Marcel is like a, just a delightful human being. And so, uh, having someone who I wasn't, who I, who I could slightly be self mocking about, you know, my lack of knowledge about anamorphic lenses and aspect ratios was, was good. So that I could tell him this is what we're trying to achieve. I think you tell me if we're think, if you, if you think we're doing it in a good way.

• 44:48Andy Greenwald?

  So I appreciate everything you just said in that lovely answer, but I do want to ask you about the coffee machines. But more specifically, one of the things that I just reveled in, in watching this film was the savage and yet honest reflection on how some of the most powerful and rich people in the world have the worst taste. And I wondered how you, now in the director's chair, did that balancing act of wanting to make something visually compelling and interesting and dynamic, but also truthfully capturing a world of half zips and pretzel rolls and not much else.

• 45:23Chris Ryan?

  Well, and all the characters show up and they're like, this is a shitty house.

• 45:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 45:27Chris Ryan?

  You know, it's like they are in a boring place. Yeah.

• 45:29Andy Greenwald?

  That, that is a Tightrope walk, right? Because you also, you want the film to look good. So how did that play into your decision making process?

• 45:35Speaker 10

  Yeah, probably, you know, if well, fifty percent luck, fifty percent Stephen Carter, production designer. The luck, I guess, or the, the luck which we set ourselves up for, we're shooting in Utah with big windows. And like the beauty is provided mostly by Utah and the sense of scope and scale at the windows and around the house. And then the interiors, yes, Stephen's a maestro who I worked with on succession and good at that, at that. We've all been, we've looked at a lot of those rooms now and we were struck once again, we, we, we scouted for houses for a little while all together in Canada and in the US. And I don't want to be, well, I can't not be rude. We went to a lot of rich people's houses. Some of them were very decent, nice people.

• 46:20Speaker 10

  But the, the taste is, it's just extraordinarily bland on the whole. I think it's scary, maybe having a big house. A lot of the people are making, maybe decision makers are men and they, they outsource it. And then they pick oatmeal, they pick cream and they pick the most sort of boring style choices imaginable. And, and, and it's very oppressive when you go to a lot of those, those places. And it kind of, it, it seeps into you. And, and so I think me and Stephen both had a good sense of like, yeah, that's right.

• 46:59Speaker 10

  They, they, they have the, that sort of depressing color back to the correct art choice for this, this, this banal, international, endlessly repeatable style.

• 47:13Andy Greenwald?

  God, it's, it would be so awkward if Steve Carell showed up on set the first day and was like, this is gorgeous.

• 47:19Andy Greenwald?

  When I got paid off the office, I bought a place like this.

• 47:22Speaker 10

  That's me with Matthew McFadyen's clothing in succession. I was always, whenever he showed up, I was like, I think Tom's wearing it. Where did Tom get those jumping? He's, he's really rocking that little.

• 47:35Andy Greenwald?

  Go off, Tom.

• 47:36Speaker 10

  I could, I'd like one of those.

• 47:38Chris Ryan?

  You mentioned Steve Carell and watching this film made me realize how little baggage I brought with me to the cast of Succession. So even though I obviously admire Brian Cox from Manhunter and several, you know, tons of other stuff, you know, and I liked Jeremy Strong a lot and knew who Kieran Culkin was. I think I kind of came into that with no preconceived notions of what these characters were going to turn into or even become. And then quite the opposite happened with Mountain Head, where in some ways you're working against what people kind of bring to a Steve Carell role or bring. Honestly, like I thought you

• 48:18Chris Ryan?

  did some very interesting things with Rami, where Rami is a very empathetic performer. And so Jeff immediately becomes the moral center of the film, even though he has some culpability as well. Can you talk to me a little bit about casting these, for lack of a better term, better known performers? And then I actually have a follow up about one who was less well known, but who I was quite struck by.

• 48:42Speaker 10

  Yeah. Francine Masler, brilliant casting director. What did we go into it with? Steve was the first person we approached. I thought he'd be perfect for Randall. You know, although he's so well known, you know, between, you know, his more comedic roles and Foxcatcher and Morning Show, like he's, although he is unbelievably well known, he's such a shapeshifter that I felt like we had room, he had room to create a new role. So, and I just wanted

• 49:21Speaker 10

  that authority, the, you know, I love comedy actors. I think they 95% have all the dramatic facility you could ever need, as well as being able to hit the know exactly where the comedy is when you need it. So I've just admired him for a long time and him saying yes was a big part of the momentum of what at a certain point was quite a racketsy train on the, on the, on the rails, heading towards ambitious production date. So, so, so yeah, that was. Fantastic. Everyone else was a read, a sort of casting decision. Rami, I admired from his show. And just as you say, I thought that this was going to help his arc, which is probably

• 50:06Speaker 10

  the most tragic arc within the film between a sort of half-knowing, a anxiety and a accommodation. And I thought that his inherent likability and the roles he's played before would help with that. Jason, Jason was just, he's just so funny. I find, I love, I love his work across his career. But I also felt like he had some noodles of comic potential that I could write towards that, that made me very excited as soon as, as soon as we

• 50:47Speaker 10

  saw a tape of him playing, playing the character. So, so it was like, yeah, one was a straight off, and the other was like, oh, my God, these people feel perfect for the roles once we, once I did a little bit of work with them on, on, over, over, um, video on, for auditions. And I guess you're going to ask about Corey, who's remarkable.

• 51:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, he's just, he's the sort of nuclear reactor of this thing. And when he's on screen, I mean, like, even just the physicality of the performance, the way he like, kind of, wings around the house and is always sort of flexing and getting high off of his own endorphins and all of these things. And it's just such a great, I don't even know if I have a question as much as I did not, I loved, I really loved him in Saturday Night, but I did not expect to see this.

• 51:35Speaker 10

  He's so great. And, you know, it reminds me the, the sort of what you, what we needed from Jeremy in, in Succession, in that I, without his dynamo of

• 51:49Speaker 10

  Of, what is it, a dynamo of desire, aggression, of confidence, that the thing could have become flaccid and he's just so important at providing this want, this huge want at the beginning, at the middle of the film. So, yeah, and I think it was the role I was probably most anxious about casting because, you know, they say he's the richest man in the world. He's not, he's not, he's very different from Musk, right? There's a bit of Zuck, bit of maybe Sam Altman, a bit of a bunch of those people in there. But he

• 52:32Speaker 10

  needed this sort of charisma and drive. And if we couldn't find it, I was, I knew we'd be in trouble. So, so that was probably the hardest I punched the air when we saw his tape because he did it right away when we watched him.

• 52:46Andy Greenwald?

  One of the things that Chris and I talk a lot about generally on our podcast, but then also very much in relation to Succession, then again about Mountain Head, is that how long-running serialized shows, TV on TV, turn TV into a kind of an empathy machine, where regardless of the character's behavior, inevitably because of our intimacy with them and the point of view, we start to feel for them, even as they do potentially monstrous things. That famously happened with, you know, Breaking Bad or Sopranos. The journey of a lot of people watching Succession followed a similar arc where there were plenty of think pieces or reviews in the, after the first three episodes saying, well, these are bad people. Thus, you know, I am not a bad person and why would I want to watch this? Those concerns went out the window as we got to know these people and feel for them and see

• 53:31Andy Greenwald?

  their humanity, even as they spiraled the morality drain. Film is a different medium entirely. And in film, you can be more didactic and you can be harsher, stronger brushstrokes, leave a bruise, I think, in a way with the characters. I wonder if you agree with that, first of all, because I'm enjoying your considering face very much as I unspool this question. I guess I also wonder how you used film differently, knowing that, that our time with these characters would be less intense and thus our connection to them or our feelings about them would be just inevitably different.

• 54:08Speaker 10

  Yeah, ninety percent. It's a great question and your summary of the differences I find intriguing. I think I buy it, you know, and I certainly feel that thing about the empathy

• 54:20Speaker 10

  development that comes, whether you want it or not. And I've written lots of characters who I'm surprised to see people warm to, although never disappointed. I always like it and I think it's human and I would never disdain or disregard that human connection to people. Because if you didn't have that, we're really fucked, right? If you can't see the humanity of fellow people. But as you, as you, as you say, I think I'm half aware of what you, of what you describe, right? The working title of this film was Espresso, because I knew it was going to be sort of short, intense. Bitter?

• 55:01Speaker 10

  Yeah, and somewhat bitter, yeah. So, so

• 55:09Speaker 10

  and in my mind, it's much more of a comedy than Succession. It's a, it's a, it's not a hit piece in that I don't intend it to the characters in it to relate to people in the real world. But it's kind of a hit job in that it's like a drive-by, it's like it's moving pretty fast, it's in, it's out. There it is, the proposition is pretty clear. It's somewhat provocative, I guess, and some, and people will be, in some ways not even enjoy, even the, find it

• 55:45Speaker 10

  unwelcome to be, to be, to think that I have the right to try and provoke them, like reject the whole proposition of it. And I kind of get that. But if you find it an amenable way to think about these people, and in particular, see some of the philosophies which are At large in Silicon Valley, as it used to be called, the tech world. I think it's a pretty decent primer in the way that some of those people are thinking about the world. So, so, yeah, I, I, I, I, you know, it's, it's narrower. I thought this is going to be narrower. It's, I can't, you, I can't give you the, the worlds of relationships which are implied and sometimes explored in succession. And that's okay.

• 56:27Speaker 10

  It's a, it, it, it's, it's an espresso shot and, and it might, might keep you up all night or it might, or it might not be to your taste. But, but, but that, but, but that was pretty, I, I was, you know, prepared for that going in.

• 56:43Andy Greenwald?

  That analogy kept getting better. They keep you up all night. That was, you've landed that. That was, that was great.

• 56:48Chris Ryan?

  It would be bad if I was like, espresso, it revives me. It gets me ready for my day and prepares me for everything I need to do. I know that this.

• 56:57Speaker 10

  Only enjoyed really by Italian truckers.

• 57:00Chris Ryan?

  Well, that's your main constituency.

• 57:02Andy Greenwald?

  Well, Max is expanding internationally, so I feel like Jesse would be okay with it.

• 57:06Chris Ryan?

  Now that if they finish Gomorrah in time, they can watch, yeah. Jesse, I know that this, the origins of this came from, uh, writing a, a book review for the Times Literary Supplement. And so obviously there's this genesis. You do the, the research, you're, you're reading about the way that these guys talk, the way that these guys think, how they use vocabulary as, as a shield, but also as like a weapon. And I was wondering what it is about the jargon. I mean, maybe it could be for, maybe truckers have, have jargon that would be attractive to write in and a, and a, and a vocabulary that would be, you know,

• 57:45Chris Ryan?

  fun to play with, but is there something about the way that these guys have a term or a code or a nickname or an acronym or something for everything that allows these characters and in your mind, perhaps these people to distance themselves from the consequences of their actions? Cause that was something that was really leaping off the screen with me. I was just rewatching it this morning and. You know, whether it's their sort of humor, but also that literally the words they're using seems to allow them to push this off a little bit.

• 58:20Speaker 10

  Yeah, it's another great question. And yeah, so yeah, the origins of this were vaguely when I didn't realize it at the time I wrote this piece for the Times Literary Supplement, owned by Rupert Murdoch, a great benefactor of my career, it turns out, at least I didn't expect. So wrote that piece in T S and yeah, that was about Sam Bankman-Fried. And yeah, the language, especially in that piece, in that is in the Michael Lewis book, The Language of Effective Altruism, is interesting from one angle, and it's very funny from another. And yeah, I think, I think this is also retrospective analysis, but I think that I

• 59:05Speaker 10

  think the language functions, I'm very interested in language. I love it. That's, you know, and when my ear gets in to, or I think I've dialed my ear into a culture or subculture, it's like another one of those moments when I can feel everyone in the room. It's like, I know how these people speak, and that releases me in a, in a very important way to be able to enter the world. And I, and I love it. And I, and I think, as you say, acronyms, jargon, technical terms can operate in all sorts of different ways. In some ways, I used to think, and I don't know if we discussed this, but like Succession sometimes started to seem to me to be a horror story about language losing its meaning, that the

• 59:48Speaker 10

  way they would frame and reframe arguments and that particular milieu, TV, cable news world and print media, that their, that their obfuscations also about themselves were part of what the show was about at some level. I feel like language operates in a very different way in this tech world. And in some ways, it's, I think it does distance, just as you say, right? If you, if you listen to Lex Friedman and All In and the TED Talks that are around and BG Squared and all these people talking, they

• 1:00:28Speaker 10

  The language becomes forceps to hold really quite radioactive ideas, which they recognize too, but it provides this very masculine distance and ability to talk about, you know, the incredible job losses that are going to come with AI and the with coded by talking about the opportunities which they see as well. So yeah, the the language is is both those sort of forceps and the and this kind of depersonalizing, just as you say, but also, I guess, they try and kill someone in this film and it's silly and dumb, but they do try and do it. You know, I don't think they ever would have

• 1:01:08Speaker 10

  done, they ever would have tried to murder someone in Succession. It would have been ludicrous in all sorts of ways. But the seeing these people follow the logic of their own arguments was really important to me. And and and I and I think that's the the difference for me about their use of language is it they're really invested in logic to an extraordinary degree with with a huge faith in it. And and I don't disdain logic and I don't disdain the the things that some of those people have achieved. But the but the confidence, the unwarranted confidence that it can provide is one of the truly, you know, scary things

• 1:01:53Speaker 10

  of the current moment.

• 1:01:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the oh, sorry. I was just going to say that there's a moment about midway through where I believe it's after Vedas has talked to the president and he's just like, I just want to like push through. I want to like, you know, like basically, he's like essentially saying he wants to double down and like just give like just spray the world with this slop and that that will kind of take us to this new nirvana. And it's so interesting how much of their language. Almost describes like a physicality to

• 1:02:29Chris Ryan?

  something that actually involves no physical effort whatsoever. I mean, sure, coding is hard or whatever, but like, it's not like these guys are pushing boulders up hills. Like, they're just like, yes, flip this switch and change this to a zero instead of a one. But they're making it sound like they're, they're, you know, defending Troy.

• 1:02:48Chris Ryan?

  And so I just, I really liked the idea that you can almost change the nature of your reality based on how you describe it, which I guess is probably what powerful people have been doing for as long as there's been power.

• 1:03:03Speaker 10

  Yeah, and it's salesmanship. You probably was, have you seen the Sam Altman post today about the gentle singularity, you know, and it's a sort of, I would say not terribly persuasive, but sort of, quite, from one, from one angle, quite funny pitch on the future of the world.

• 1:03:25Speaker 10

  What's, what rings so untrue about it is like, it has the sound of one of those boosters in a, in a western town in the, in the 1880s. It's like, the gold rush is coming and, you know, come and buy your, come and buy your spades and shovels from, from ChatGPT-4 because it's, it's, it's all going to be great out here. And if he wasn't a salesman for his product, I would be interested to hear, well, I'm interested to hear what he says anyway. But I'd be, I would like to hear what he said if he had, if he held no stock in his company, or the, or the profit-making derivative thereof.

• 1:04:01Andy Greenwald?

  Let's add this interview in the best possible place, which is fear. I feel like there is, I really loved what you were saying a moment ago, Jesse, about like this sort of radical freedom of speculation, that it doesn't cost anything to just ask the questions, just do your own research, let's say. And the brilliance in the film is the way that the speculative becomes very, very tangible and real for these people. They are actually going to murder someone and they're very bad at it and other things then ensue. Picking up also what you were just saying about like the old west town and Chris's question. There are elements at play in Mountain Head and with the type of characters you're writing about that are ever-present, that are perpetual, that are back in like Greek

• 1:04:42Andy Greenwald?

  tragedy or, you know, great works of the 20th century. But there is something uniquely horrifying about these four guys and who they represent. And I wonder if you could help me puzzle it out, because it's almost like a Venn diagram of a bunch of things that have never touched before. There is the unchecked ego, there is the enormous money, but there's also this sort of like galaxy brain confidence that what they do is better, coupled with the self-selecting silos that we all live in now, right? Where like, me getting my news from Facebook and these four guys getting their news from each other has so divorced them from any lived experience that we are in uncharted waters. I don't know if, I'm just pulling this together just on the fly.

• 1:05:27Chris Ryan?

  He just mostly wants to say he gets his news from Facebook.

• 1:05:29Andy Greenwald?

  I just wanted to see Jesse's face when I said that, honestly. There's some wild stuff going on, guys. I'll fill you in once we stop recording. But do you know what I mean? I wonder if you feel, as someone who is listening, reading, researching, processing your own reactions through your work, do you feel there is something unique, or dare I say, uniquely terrifying about this particular moment, as illustrated and fictionalized, of course, in Mountain Head?

• 1:05:58Speaker 10

  Yeah, I guess I do. And if this is coded into the film, it's deep in there, because I don't think I'd ever conceptualized it like this. But I guess I'm a politics person. I started in politics. It's what me and Sam wrote sitcoms, not in that world, but working on The Thick of It was a key thing for me. And even the succession is, in a way, about the way in which politics is influenced by legacy media power. So...

• 1:06:32Speaker 10

  Politics is the most important thing for me because it's how we decide how we're all going to try and live together. And I guess politics is, and this is going to be the arguable point, is politics still paramount? Can we organize as communities, democratic communities, to try to create the societies we want to live in? And I guess tech is, challenges that because of its combination of media information power about how citizenry experience the world, understand the world, and its capability, its apparent capability to change

• 1:07:15Speaker 10

  things so fast that the political movements won't be able to respond and provide, you know, the siloing or the rules that we might want to think about. So, you know, I'm getting older, and older people tend to start thinking that things might be uniquely different and uniquely bad. And I hope there will be great benefits to the tech revolution we're in. But I'm scared too. And I'm particularly scared about the capability of politics to stand up to the demands of tech.

• 1:07:56Andy Greenwald?

  Sounds like we had the same 4am. Yeah. Sounds like Jesse, you and I had the same 4am last night. That's where my brain went.

• 1:08:02Chris Ryan?

  Jesse, thank you so much for joining us again. Thanks for this film. And we obviously can't wait to see what you do next. I don't know if you want to-

• 1:08:11Andy Greenwald?

  Do it fast again, so we could talk more.

• 1:08:12Chris Ryan?

  Seriously.

• 1:08:13Speaker 10

  It was really lovely to chat. And yeah, see you later.

• 1:08:20Andy Greenwald?

  Next time in person, unless, you know, it all collapses.

• 1:08:23Speaker 10

  Let's hope so. That would be really fun. Thank you. Great questions.

• 1:08:27Chris Ryan?

  Thank you, Jesse. See you tonight.

• 1:08:29Speaker 10

  See you tonight. Thank you very much, Chris. See you later, Andy.

• 1:08:31Andy Greenwald?

  Bye.

• 1:08:34Chris Ryan?

  Thank you to everybody for listening. Thank you to Kaya for producing. Thank you to John. We'll be back on Monday with more Watch. Everybody have a great, safe weekend.

• 1:08:50Speaker 11

  Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy, terms, and conditions.

• 1:09:21Speaker 12

  What's the secret to being a great host this season? Keeping things deliciously simple. Like mixing Simply Cranberry into a festive drink as guests arrive. Or serving up a warm mug of Simply Apple on a chilly night. That means less time behind the scenes and more time in the moment with everyone. Crafted with real fruit, Simply juices and fruit drinks make any holiday drink effortless, inviting, and completely delicious. Simply. Say yes to Simple.