Advice Line with Gary Erickson of Clif Bar (May 2024)

Clif Bar founder Gary Erickson joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders about expanding their customer base. Today we meet James, who recycles water bottles into one of the most sustainable plastics on the market. Then Valerie, a leathercrafter with a co-op of artisans born from a strike against Etsy. And finally, Elsie, who accidentally invented a pet hair remover while cleaning her dog’s muddy pawprints. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And check out Clif Bar’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/56686294-0c2e-4cf8-a871-eca20d0764bf/embed from Gary’s first appearance on the show in 2016. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was James Willetts. You can follow HIBT on X https://twitter.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis, email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected], and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2 a.m. kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan,

• 0:46Guy Raz?

  build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea, what separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt. We get support from U.S. Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't.

• 1:32Guy Raz?

  Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems. But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned, money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back

• 2:16Guy Raz?

  on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. If you travel often, you'll want to hear about this unprecedented offer. For the first time ever,

• 3:00Guy Raz?

  new Delta SkyMiles Reserve American Express Card members can earn two Delta Comfort Round Trip flights for travel within the 48 contiguous US states, Puerto Rico, or the US Virgin Islands. Plus, you can earn 50,000 bonus miles towards your next getaway. And who doesn't appreciate an elevated airport experience? Delta SkyMiles Reserve Card members get access to the Delta Sky Club, your pre-flight oasis to recharge, with 15 visits and four one-time guest passes each medallion year when flying Delta together. That's up to $950 in annual value. Value estimate based on $50 per visit rate to purchase additional visits

• 3:45Guy Raz?

  or bring a guest to the Delta Sky Club. Make every trip feel more rewarding with the car that upgrades your travel. Apply today at delta.com/cardsocial. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Flights are fulfilled as flight certificates valid for Delta Comfort or Delta Maine to select domestic destinations. Book 21-plus days in advance. Up to $80 per person and taxes and fees apply. Other restrictions apply. When I pull up to a gas pump to fill my car, I'm not thinking about chemistry or engineering. I'm thinking about getting in, filling up, and getting on with my day. And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talked to on this show, because the best

• 4:27Guy Raz?

  ones obsess over things their customers will never see. Tiny details, invisible improvements, relentless iteration. And not because anyone's watching, but because it makes the product better. That's what the mobile brand does. It engineers fuel the same way great founders engineer their products. Mobile Supreme Plus Premium Gas helps keep engines three times cleaner, which can mean better performance and improved gas mileage. It's for people who care about what's under the hood, even if they never see it. Three times cleaner compared to mobile, regular gas in port fuel-injected engines. Actual results may vary. Visit mobilefuels.com for details.

• 5:11Guy Raz?

  This episode is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps you build smarter digital relationships with your customers with its unified data and marketing platform, featuring email, SMS, reviews, and more. Make every moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at K-L-A-V-I-Y-O.com/BFCM. Hey, everyone, it's Guy here. So our team is taking a little time off for Thanksgiving, so we're bringing you one from the archives this week. It's the advice line with Clifbar founder Gary Erickson. Gary was first on the show way back in 2016, and he told us about how he was trying to

• 5:53Guy Raz?

  make a cookie without butter, sugar, or oil. And the result- Was Cliff Bar, an energy bar named after his dad. And it became one of the most popular energy bars in the US. So popular, in fact, that Gary later sold Cliff Bar for nearly $3 billion in 2022. Gary came back to the show as one of our very first Advice Line guests earlier this year, and he was the perfect person for this episode. Be sure to stick around to the very end because we have a few updates about some of our callers, but for now, enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.

• 6:38Guy Raz?

  Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com.

• 7:21Guy Raz?

  And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. With me this week, one of our very first guests on the show, Gary Erickson, founder of Cliff Bar. Gary Erickson, welcome back to the show. It's so awesome to have you back.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Thank you, Guy.

• 7:40Guy Raz?

  So Gary, when you were on the show, you and your partner Kit were still the owners of Cliff Bar at the time, though your employees also owned a significant chunk. And in 2022, after 30 years, you sold it. And I know that in that time, over those 30 years, you guys filled the tons of acquisition offers and you even had to fight some of them off. And in fact, I think listeners who remember, who heard your episode, will remember quite an emotional moment in our conversation when you talked about walking away the first time you had an acquisition offer and you had to come up with the money to buy out your first partner.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I still have now and then nightmares.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Of what if I would have sold the company in 2000?

• 8:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  That was after only eight years in business, which is a long time. But I can't even describe the exponential growth and

• 8:40Speaker 01

  good things we were able to pull off over the next, what, 22 years?

• 8:44Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  And if we would have sold it, yeah, I probably, I'd be fine. I'm happy. Anyway, I'm happy living in a garage like I

• 8:52Guy Raz?

  Basically do now.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Which I do now, which I

• 8:55Guy Raz?

  With your bikes.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  That's right. Which I did before I met my wife. And

• 9:02Speaker 01

  I'm just so thankful that we, we, we escaped that moment and went with the gut reaction and the heart. And both of us decided this is what we're going to do. And we did it for 22 more years.

• 9:14Guy Raz?

  And you turned it into one of the biggest energy bar brands on earth. One of the things that I, I love about how you started Cliff Bar was, was that initially you focused on a community of people that you were a part of, which in your case was cyclists. You are an avid cyclist. You go, I know you do these long cycling trips through Europe and Italy multiple times a year. You started by getting the product into their hands, into cyclists' hands. Was that critical, do you think, to Cliff Bar's eventual success?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  It was the path to success, for sure. Many ways to say that, but that's how I feel right now. I, I think the two sports that I was deeply involved in were, well, three, actually. Cycling, I did some triathlons before that. And then I was a client, I climbed since at that point, I was about into 20 years of climbing. And so I went to each of those groups and would just pass out bars. And I knew I had Tiger by the Tail when I was able to go to multiple, like either climbing crags or bike races or and just literally hand out the bars out of my, out of my car.

• 10:28Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  And for free. It's like, take this. And their reaction sold it to me. And then from there on, it was just, as I say, hang on to the reins. From year one to, you know, we just, we never, we never did not grow for 30 years.

• 10:41Guy Raz?

  And what started out with, you know, a small group of people, cyclists, triathletes. Climbers eventually became a mass consumer product with moms and kids and people on the go and people going to the gym and people just getting some energy. I mean, so, but it really, I mean, it's interesting because so I think a lot of really great products start that way. They find a small, narrow group of people who love it. And then from there, they, that group helps to grow it out into something bigger.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  You have to have that foundation first. And then from there, you go out. If you're going to try to go mass market, you have to have so much funding to be able to do that. And chances are, it's not going to work because you've got to build that base.

• 11:27Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Well, Gary, so you ready to take a call?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yes, let's go.

• 11:32Guy Raz?

  All right, let's go. First caller on the line, I think it's James. James, are you there?

• 11:36Speaker 02

  I am here.

• 11:38Guy Raz?

  James, introduce yourself. Tell us what the name of your business is and where you live.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  I'm calling in from LA, Los Angeles, actually from the Techstars Accelerator Program podcast studio. I'm representing Stoke Plastics and Opelous Optics. We transform ocean waste plastic into sustainable performance plastic. And we're making everything from adventure gear to luxury hard goods.

• 12:02Guy Raz?

  And tell me what your question is for us.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. How did you cut through the noise when building Cliff Bar and effectively communicate your product's unique benefits in a way that resonated with consumers and made them choose your product over the competition?

• 12:18Guy Raz?

  All right, we're going to get to your question and to Gary's answers in a moment. But if you, if you don't mind, indulge me, I have some questions for you first.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 12:28Guy Raz?

  So you, so your company is called Stoke Plastics.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 12:32Guy Raz?

  And you basically use recycled plastics to make things like sunglasses and ski goggles. Is that right?

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we, our specific or unique niche is that we use water bottles, ocean-bound and ocean-found.

• 12:47Guy Raz?

  Okay, so just to be clear, you've got Stoke Plastics, which is the technology company that makes this recycled material. And then you created a separate brand called Opelis, which makes sunglasses and ski goggles using the Stoke Plastics technology.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  Correct, and we started off making sunglasses and goggles. But now we're doing prototypes for buckles and trims and coolers and really anything that uses a high density of R-PET or PET in manufacturing.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, now I'm understanding it a little bit more. So when you look 10 years from now, is Stoke Plastics the material supplier of this great plastic that you're providing? Is that going to be 98% of the business? And Opelis is there as a kind of grounding thing or signature? Or the other way around?

• 13:41Speaker 02

  So Opelis Optics at this point is almost sort of proof of concept for Stoke Plastic about the capabilities that we have through our IP. But essentially, we would love to replace all virgin PET with our Stoke Plastic IP. For us, and we want companies and brands to be able to use our Stoke Plastic in their manufacturing and to have our icon right there. So when consumers are shopping, they know that it's affiliated with sustainability, circularity, and performance.

• 14:11Guy Raz?

  It's a really interesting idea because it's your vertically-integrated business from the get-go. I mean, you manufacture your own material and then you make your own products. And essentially, what you're saying is by showing how it can be used in your products, the hope is that other brands will just buy Stoke Plastics. You will continue to make sunglasses and ski goggles. But really, it's Stoke, it's the plastic material that you'd like everyone to use.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the impact. That's the change that we want to kind of motivate. When we first came up with the IP, you guys, no one wanted to touch us. I was a former US government contractor. We didn't really have a foot in the door in the outdoor industry. So we're like, look, no one's going to buy it. Let's go create our own product and see how it resonates within the outdoor space and beyond.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Put on my finance hat.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Cost of goods, a pound of your stoke plastic versus your same use for same sunglasses or whatever.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Sure, that's a great question and one we get a lot. So yeah, comparative to the our pet that you can currently buy on the market, ours is about 10% more than that. But because of our high recyclability grade, you know, and economies of scale, we can hit ESG targets a lot quicker for companies that are trying to meet those targets.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Here's a off the cuff idea. Thinking out loud idea.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, my pen and paper.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  So I think in food, organic is stoke plastics. Like, look, it's gonna be a hard time sometimes to convince the CFO of company to buy, but if you could build this to be like the organic of plastic, then...

• 16:05Guy Raz?

  That's where you can justify the price point.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you've got to justify the price point.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  No, I like that spin on just using organic because that makes people feel good and they know they're paying more money.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a certification.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, of course.

• 16:22Guy Raz?

  James, just out of curiosity, how have sales been so far?

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Well, I'll just say it this way, we've got enough sales where, you know, funds and investors are interested in us. I can't make a livelihood off of it.

• 16:38Guy Raz?

  Not yet.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Not yet, but after four years of spending a lot of money, and this kind of goes into my question to Gary, on educating the marketplace on the difference between what we're putting in our sunglasses and goggles and what others are not. And that is just, as you guys know, it's just been this huge PR and marketing effort that is time intensive and expensive.

• 17:02Guy Raz?

  So your question was about breaking through, right? And your question for Gary is, why should somebody eat a Clif Bar versus a competitor snack, you know, which you're trying to figure out, how do we get people to get educated on what we're offering? Gary, where do you, where would you even start?

• 17:18Speaker 01

  No, boy. It's a tough one. It's changed over the last 30 years, it's changed so much. Uh, I, I'll start with our story, you know, in 1992, um, it was really only Powerbar. And a few bars had come out during that time, but they were kind of like, they took the Powerbar ingredients and they added, you know, a little more vanilla or they, you know, a little more peanut butter or something. We created a completely different product. Okay. And you're, you're, you're kind of like that and you're kind of not. Like you're, you're, there's so many sunglasses companies, I don't have to tell you. And there's some beautiful designs out there in all these companies, but you know, what is the difference? And we had this radically, we had to educate people

• 18:00Speaker 01

  that it is an energy bar, it just tastes better. And so we sampled a lot, which was, that was instant sale, but you can't get to everybody. So we did some print ads and we did a print ad called, it's your body, you decide. And it was going directly after Powerbar. And in five days, we had a lawsuit against Powerbar.

• 18:18Guy Raz?

  They sued you guys, but that lawsuit actually was a, a blessing in disguise, right Gary? Because it got you all this attention.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  You took the words out of my story.

• 18:27Guy Raz?

  Sorry. Yeah. Sorry.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  No, I'm glad you did because it's so, it's, people don't realize that sometimes it might be what you want. And, you know, so I, and I think people are afraid to attack competition. So, you know, my, my question back to you would be like, do you pick the number one competitor that you can grab? Or do you do them all together? And, um, you know, do you go after them and create a super aggressive campaign that gets you PR? Cause back then there was no PR as per se, but it was usually, oh, in, in a retail magazine or a trade magazine, you know, Cliff Bar gets sued by Powerbar. We're like, thank you. And guys, right? Like then all these bike shops were like, well, let's just try

• 19:11Speaker 01

  it. I mean, gosh, and they did. And we had 700 accounts in like months. And our goal, um, this sounds very aggressive, but our goal is to put them out of business and. For the first 10 to 15 years, our people were like, we are going to just go after their market share everywhere we could. And so that's how you tell people you're different. You've got to show the difference between what everybody's doing and you're not doing, and that you can't be bashful or shy about it. You gotta, that's my opinion.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:41Guy Raz?

  You know, it's kind of cool is like you could have, you could basically take a competitor's sunglasses and just show a pile of plastic and say, this becomes this.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:50Guy Raz?

  Right?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 19:52Guy Raz?

  Yeah, guy. Madison Avenue here.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  You took the design right out of my head, our heads.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  We're looking for some marketing, guy.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  That's exactly.

• 19:59Guy Raz?

  Call my 800 number.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  And Gary, how important is like athlete influencer association with, with, with brand voice, brand identity?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  It was, it was in our mix, always. And we still have, you know, world-class athletes with Cliff Bar stickers on their helmets and like ski racing, you know, you're, you're in the skiing because I saw your goggles, you know, Bryce Bennett, who won a World Cup race this year, gets in the start line and you see this big red sticker and then he crosses the finish line and he wins and he literally points to the Cliff Bar sticker on his helmet. Like, holy crap, that is worth so much.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Doesn't get better than that, does it?

• 20:40Speaker 01

  It doesn't get better than that. And so I a hundred percent, without having to go on and on about it, yes, we, we've always had athletes from day one endorsing our product and they're super legit. They're not just celebrities who, you know, look good and, you know, they, they could choose anything. But these people used our product for function and for quality and for, and believing in our story.

• 21:03Guy Raz?

  I think that's a key point, Gary, is that there will be some consumers who are attracted to, to the, the story and the recycled aspect of it. But I, I think most people are going to want to know about the function. They're going to want to know why this is better. And I think this, that having An athlete, having a, you know, I think like an Alex Honnold or an outdoor person, you know, somebody or Michaela Schiffer and wearing the ski goggles. I'm not, you know, they're probably already sponsors.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Taking care of it.

• 21:31Guy Raz?

  But you know, you think about, you think about the shoe brand ON, right? Which we're going to tell that story on the show. I mean, Roger Federer's supercharged that brand because all of a sudden Roger Federer is wearing ONs and people are like, what is that? Roger Federer, they must be amazing.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 21:46Guy Raz?

  People need to understand, because the majority of people are going to buy it because they look good and they're functional, not because they're recycled.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I promise to do this. I'm going to get some, but I'm paying retail, buddy. I'm going online and that's my, that's my gig. I pay retail.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  That's fine with me.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  I pay retail.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  That's fine with me.

• 22:05Guy Raz?

  Hey, Gary Erickson wearing Opelousas, that's a big deal.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  That's a huge deal.

• 22:08Guy Raz?

  A lot of people are going to be like, what is Gary wearing? Okay.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  I just resigned from the World Cup, so I don't think.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Up there with how I built this and Gary Erickson wearing our eyewear, that would be cool.

• 22:22Guy Raz?

  James, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck. We're going to be following your progress and, and we'll catch up with you. Maybe you'll be back on the show.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  I hope so. You guys, Guy, I've been listening to you for, for four years. You've got me through a lot of ups and downs. And Gary, you've gotten me through a lot of hikes, snowboard trips, surf trips through your bars. I really appreciate the time and thoughts.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  James, thanks a lot and I hope we get to catch up more. I'd like to, you know, catch up one on one if we can someday just to check it out.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  I'd love that. Thank you, guys.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  All right. Take care.

• 22:53Guy Raz?

  Gary, I mean, this is a complex business, but I think the idea of producing the material and turning it into products is a kind of a cool idea. It's super innovative. I mean, he's gone from zero to vertically integrating his business like right away.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. There, there are a lot of ingredients and materials out there that are like what he's doing, but they're more purely functional, like a better plastic or a better Kevlar, for example, or carbon fiber, you know, radically changed the bike industry, but there's no patent on carbon fiber and everybody's doing carbon fiber. There's, so I think he's got the advantage if they can get the IP on that and. It's got, it's got to be functional and it looks like it is very functional. At the same time, it's got that property that, you know, it's where everything is moving towards more sustainable.

• 23:49Guy Raz?

  Yeah, totally. Gary, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, a co-op of artisans competing with giants like Etsy. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

• 24:14Guy Raz?

  Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting and a CMS built in, so the work is production ready from day one. And you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams and businesses ship production-ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. Prompt, inspect, edit and publish in one place at a whole new pace. AI agents and humans work together.

• 24:56Guy Raz?

  The agents bring speed and scale and people bring taste, judgment and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities, it's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.

• 25:41Guy Raz?

  NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems and lets you ask Complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together. And that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.

• 26:26Guy Raz?

  If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. netsuite.com/built.

• 26:47Guy Raz?

  Hey, before we get back to the show, we want to share this call that we got from a listener about a pretty funny encounter with ClifBar and a competitor.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  Hi, my name is Brad Schis and I'm looking to the interview right now with Jared from ClifBar. And I have a very relevant story that I just wanted to tell him very quickly. I was working in a bike shop in Milwaukee, Utah, in 1992 or '93, and power bar was the only option, really. And I remember all of a sudden, ClifBar showed up on the scene. And one guy walked in and I thought he was a customer. And he goes and looks at our energy bar display. And I point him over to the ClifBar and I'm like, you gotta try these. They're so much better than the power bars. And I started kind of even batting my ass in the power bar a little bit and was raving about ClifBar. And he just kind of like, oh, okay, takes it in. He walks out and when I looked out the window,

• 27:39Speaker 03

  he got into a power bar van and left with the power bar rep.

• 27:43Guy Raz?

  Brad, thanks so much for sharing your story and thanks so much for listening to the show. And let's get back to the episode.

• 28:00Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to the Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and I'm with Gary Erickson. So Gary, market share is obviously super important, right? Especially in a crowded space. And as more and more competitors started to get into the energy bar space, how were you able to fend off the competition and stay ahead? Like, what were some of the strategies that worked?

• 28:25Speaker 01

  I would argue that we were built through grassroots marketing. You know, we did some print ads at the beginning, which did put us on the map. But Kit and I would fly all over the country and be cutting up bars and thousands of pieces of bars just at these marathons. It was so hard. And then we started hiring people to do that for us. We had a team of 25 people around the country and then they had local people that they would hire for the weekend events. And I really think that's what put us on the map. But our product was inexpensive enough where we could actually give out whole bars. And they could experience that. And then the next thing you know, they're buying 12, 24, and hundreds.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  And we built a lot of loyal, I mean, we have such loyalty with a small group of people that buy the majority of our product.

• 29:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Okay. Let's get another call in. What do you think?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  All right.

• 29:18Guy Raz?

  What do you say? Another one, okay. Valerie is on the line. Hello, Valerie.

• 29:22Speaker 04

  Hello, hello.

• 29:24Guy Raz?

  Welcome to the show. Please introduce yourself. Tell us your first and last name, what the name of your business is, and where you live.

• 29:31Speaker 04

  My name is Valerie Franklin, and I'm representing Artisans Cooperative. And I'm calling in from the beautiful North Oregon coast.

• 29:38Guy Raz?

  Nice. Oh, this is a beautiful place. Okay. And what's your question?

• 29:42Speaker 04

  So, we have almost no funds, but a strong bottom-up community ownership. How do we break into a market space that is filled with giants like Etsy and Amazon?

• 29:53Guy Raz?

  Woo, those are giants. Okay, we've certainly told the Etsy story on the show. First of all, tell us a little bit about your business, about Artisans Cooperative. What is it? What do you do?

• 30:05Speaker 04

  Yeah. Artisans Cooperative is a co-op alternative to Etsy. We're growing an online handmade marketplace for crafters, makers and artists owned and managed by the people who love it as a cooperatively owned business.

• 30:19Guy Raz?

  I'm looking at the website now. And so first of all, what's the problem with Etsy? Why did you? Because it seems like you are really, it is competing with Etsy. But what prompted you to start this?

• 30:33Speaker 04

  Well, it's easiest for me to answer in some ways from a personal point of view because I'm one half of a leather crafting business, a small husband and wife leather crafting business that we started on Etsy in 2009. So we know Etsy very well and we're still on Etsy. And they are a great option to have in your portfolio as a small artist or maker. But over the years, they've changed a lot, you know, starting in, I think, 2012, they started growing much bigger. 2015, they went through an IPO and sellers started becoming, I would say, the product as much as the offering, the way that Etsy is making revenue.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  So this all really got started when they increased their fees a second time by 30% in 2022. And they announced that fee increase in the same week that they announced record profits. And that was just something that struck a lot of small makers and artists who rely on this income, kind of struck a nerve.

• 31:37Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 04

  And so it kind of spontaneously organized into a protest online through social media, which is how I got involved. It was called the Etsy Strike and thousands of shops took their listings off of the site for a week in protest. And it actually caught some pretty good mainstream attention, but didn't change the fact that the fees were going up again.

• 32:01Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 32:01Speaker 04

  It's at the point where a sales commission might vary anywhere from 10% to 40% per sale.

• 32:07Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 32:07Speaker 04

  And you won't really know what that is until the sale happens.

• 32:10Guy Raz?

  And how do you differ from Etsy? Like you're presumably you're charging much lower fees to your sellers.

• 32:17Speaker 04

  Um, not necessarily, no. Um, the, the big difference is that we're owned and operated or were owned by the members themselves.

• 32:25Guy Raz?

  I see.

• 32:26Speaker 04

  So a cooperative is a member-owned business that's organized on a principle of one member, one vote. Um, so, uh, we have a multi-stakeholder cooperative, which means that the artisans themselves can be owners of the business and the shoppers or any general supporter can become an owner of the business, which means they get governance rights, they get a vote, and they get to have a say in how things are run, and they get financial rights so that when we have profits, the dividends are distributed-

• 32:53Guy Raz?

  They'll get a cut.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  -among the people, yeah.

• 32:55Guy Raz?

  How many artisans do you now have, um, involved?

• 32:59Speaker 04

  Um, we have a little over 300 members now.

• 33:01Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 33:02Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, and we have about, I think, 200 shops on our marketplace.

• 33:06Guy Raz?

  Okay, so Valerie, um, you brought us this question about you've got, say, almost no funds, but you've got a strong bottom-up community. How do you break into a marketplace kind of dominated by Amazon, Etsy, eBay, and other massive retailers? Gary, you want to sort, you want to take the first crack at this one?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Oh, man, this is a tough one. Well, you've got a real targeted competitor. You would call Etsy a competitor, is that correct?

• 33:34Speaker 04

  Um, yes, although we're not necessarily trying to replace Etsy. If we could get the 1% of artisans who are, um, looking for alternatives and the consumers who are looking for, um, ethical options, I think, you know, that's a great starting place.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  So the answer is yes, they're your competitor.

• 33:53Speaker 04

  Okay, yes.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  You just don't want to say it.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  So, yeah, we used to say that at the beginning when we were at Cliff Bar, like, if we could just get, oh, man, 10% of their business or 20% of their business, I'll be set for life, you know, and that would be like, we'd be revenue of a million dollars and, um, and little did we know that we far surpassed that. But, so, yeah, so you could target that. Don't be, don't be shy about that.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Is there a place where you would feel like if we got here, then we've got momentum and we've we're we're able to sustain our business for the long haul? Like, how far are you from there right now?

• 34:32Speaker 04

  That's a great question. And I think that's one of the special challenges we have in trying to build a marketplace is that we're in a bit of a chicken or an egg situation. We need enough artisans to provide good consumer choice for the shoppers who are coming on. So they have things to sort through and to find what they're looking for. But we need enough customers to make it worthwhile for artisans to want to sign up. And so I hope that we're growing both in step with each other in a balanced way. We're we're not there yet. We just started. We launched our beta marketplace with existing tech in October of this year, so six months ago. And I would say we're probably, you know, at least half of where I'd want to be.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 35:18Speaker 04

  Start feeling like we were getting there.

• 35:20Guy Raz?

  And I think about, you know, it's really interesting because we've done a whole series on the show recently about content creators and the business of content creation. And, you know, 10 years ago was in order to to have to reach mass scale in media, you had to be on CNN or, you know, be at a major media organization. Today, you can be some dude with a YouTube channel and reach 50 million subscribers. Right? And so what's interesting about how social media platforms work now is that they want to attract all these creators, right? So for a long time, it was YouTube where they were trying to get on to because YouTube paid the most. And then they went to TikTok. And now a lot of people are migrating to Snapchat. Now they all use all of them, but these different platforms offer different incentives.

• 36:01Guy Raz?

  And it now it's getting me to my question for you, which is, is there a world where you could offer an incentive that is so good? You know, like no, no fees for the first year or something radical where that kind of message spreads among crafters? Because there are, I mean, there's there are craft fairs all over the country. Crafters talk to each other. You guys have a Discord channel, I see. Is there some kind of incentive that you you are able to offer to bring this critical mass in?

• 36:37Speaker 04

  That's a really good question. I absolutely think that we could come up with such an offer if we could find the right audience and the right moment to share it. But I do think one of the things we've had a challenge with being on a platform is that we don't have a lot of ways to connect with other artisans, other than at like craft fairs and things like that, because places like Etsy control the narrative and control their forums.

• 37:02Guy Raz?

  Yeah, but you, right, that's right. But for you to control the narrative, you've got to give your members the tools, you know, make it easy for them, right? I mean, you've got 300 members. Each of those members is on social media. I mean, they're not, they may not have hundreds of thousands of followers, but they might have hundreds or thousands on their social media. And I wonder whether you can leverage your community in a better way to have them promote what you're doing.

• 37:31Speaker 04

  I think our members are not only committed, they're literally invested.

• 37:34Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  They're co-op member owners. They've invested in this company and we're all equal owners of it together. So it brings up an interesting point that I hadn't fully thought through, which is that, you know, artisans have, we have people who are just starting their careers, people who are doing it just for fun, and then people like me and my partner who do this full-time for a living. And so everybody comes with it with a different set of skills and a different background. And, you know, using everybody's strengths where they are makes a lot of sense.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Valerie, once people come onto your site for the first time and maybe they buy something, do you got them? Do they come back? They're like, wow, I never thought this existed. This is really different.

• 38:21Speaker 04

  I think, I think we've had repeat customers already. Yeah. I mean, in our six months of operating, I think one of the ways that we try to encourage that is, you know, through email campaigns and trying to make people aware of the variety of things on our platform, everything from wooden coasters to hand-woven silk shawls. You know, there is such a wide variety of products and that's sort of the treasure hunt of it.

• 38:50Guy Raz?

  You know, one of the things that I've noticed, I'm gonna give you some feedback on this. I know the site's early, it's still in beta form, but it's just too much, it's too much stuff. There's join a member, four artisans, handmade, this, there's all these dropdown things. And what I think Etsy does well, and what I think you could do really well is, they just have pictures of different categories, and you have some of that, but Gary, you know, I know Gary's a cyclist, and is there a world where you've got like, people who love cycling, or you know, you've got clothing and accessories, arts and crafts, but could you break that down even further, like beanies, or games, instead of like, personal care and leisure,

• 39:30Guy Raz?

  like domino lovers, I mean, you don't have to get like, super, super like, micro niche, but you could get kind of niche, and you know, I understand you guys don't have massive budgets, but you're working with artists, I mean, I know you have a lot of talent in your group, to really kind of think a bit more intentionally about the design of the website, to make it a little, to make it pop a little bit more, you know what I mean, Gary?

• 39:56Speaker 01

  I like that a lot, and I like also that you're, you're trying to move toward something that Etsy isn't doing on their website, or with their product line, or whatever is available. I mean, you know, there, okay, you could go to, if you want to differentiate, you know, it could be your headline, you know, you may not find this on Etsy.

• 40:18Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  You may not, you may not want to say, you won't find this, because maybe you will, but you could say, you may not find this on Etsy, that would give them like, well, maybe there's other stuff on here I won't find in Etsy, and, because you've got to create, that's, you can't be an Etsy with better values.

• 40:35Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  You gotta be Etsy with a different product.

• 40:39Guy Raz?

  I'm telling you, I agree, I'm just spitballing here, but maybe think of a different way of categorizing what you offer, and you focus on the things that people love, or might, you know, be attracted to.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  So here's a question that follows that, I hope perfectly, is, how many people come to this and buy a gift, versus buying something for themselves?

• 41:01Speaker 04

  Um, that's a great question. I would say so far more purchases have been personal. And yet that contradicts my own experience with my own business. Um, that when you make these niche things that are perfect for that one person you know, more, a higher percentage of them is gifts. I also know that Etsy is pushing gifts hard right now.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Okay, that's interesting.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  That was their Super Bowl ad.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Is that right?

• 41:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 41:30Guy Raz?

  But, but gifts is, but Gary, you're right. I mean, gifts is the way to go.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  It's the way, I mean, if you push gift, you might find something for yourself too. You know, like you go in for like, I go to wherever, wherever and buy a gift for my family or my wife or something. And then I ended up like, well, this looks, I think I want to get this for myself.

• 41:46Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I mean, Gary, there's a lady here who's making knit beanies with like an octopus on it.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  I'm seeing that. I'm seeing, I'm on the same page.

• 41:54Guy Raz?

  And the chicken and the lemon. I mean, there's a, there, there's lots of people of octopuses or flamingos.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  I'm on the same page. The yellow one?

• 42:02Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  The yellow picture?

• 42:03Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I'm looking, I'm looking for gifts. I'm looking for a gift for somebody and I don't even know where to begin.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  You could have a revolving top gifts, top sold gifts.

• 42:14Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  And if you just had like a headline of like, first thing is top 50 gifts. And because if I'm looking for a gift, I wouldn't know where to start here.

• 42:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  And I would like to be led to something and I might come back here and be buying gifts all the time.

• 42:29Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Because I'm always searching for a gift for my friends and family.

• 42:32Guy Raz?

  Valerie, I think there's, I think, I think we're on to something. I think we might be on to something.

• 42:38Speaker 04

  You have given me so many great ideas and feedback and direction. And I absolutely loved Gary's point too, that gifts are a great add-on and it'd be a great way to increase our per order amount. Um, not look for yourself and also think about other gifts to add on.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  You know, and, and back to the, back to trying to get that message out is wherever you get, if you could just say, a gift you may not find on Etsy.

• 43:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Yeah. Try that. Try that.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  And you know, Etsy's not going out of business. They're, they'll be fine.

• 43:10Guy Raz?

  And we love Etsy, by the way. They've been on the show, big fans too. So no, no, no shade to Etsy. Valerie Franklin, Artisans Cooperative. Thanks for calling in. Good luck. We'll be watching.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  Awesome. I was delighted to be here. Thank you so much.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  All the best, Valerie. Great job.

• 43:27Guy Raz?

  Gary, I'm gonna get you a chicken hat.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 43:32Guy Raz?

  I don't know, or the lemon, the big lemon on the side of that knit hat.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  I think that one's for cats.

• 43:36Guy Raz?

  I think you look good cycling through Italy on your racing bike with that.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  That'd be sweet. I have to put it over the helmet if I can get it over the helmet.

• 43:42Guy Raz?

  Put it over the helmet, yeah. All right, we're gonna take another quick break, Gary, but when we come back, an inventor whose fluffy dog gave her a great idea. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab.

• 44:17Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome back to the Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. Gary, what do you say? Shall we go ahead and bring in our last caller?

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 44:27Guy Raz?

  All right. Hello, Elsie, are you there?

• 44:30Speaker 05

  Can you hear me?

• 44:31Guy Raz?

  Yes, we can. Hello, Elsie. Please tell us your name, what your company's called, their business, and where you live.

• 44:39Speaker 05

  Hi, Guy. Hi, Gary.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Hi, Elsie.

• 44:43Speaker 05

  I'm in Denver, Colorado. And I started my company Lily Brush 14 years ago after I invented a pet hair cleanup tool that's faster than vacuuming and better than sticky rollers without creating single-use waste. I've since invented four more pet hair cleanup products. And now we have this incredible core group of pet parents and professional cleaners who love our products. But I'm still struggling with how to scale up our marketing so more people can find us.

• 45:28Guy Raz?

  Right, okay, so you're looking to figure out how to scale up to get more people to find you, how to do it efficiently. Before we get there, let me ask you a couple of questions. Lily Brush is a pet hair remover for furniture and whatever pet hair. I'm a beloved pet. I've got two cats and a dog. So this is a big problem in my house. We have a lot of pet hair. I have one cat that has particularly bushy hair.

• 45:57Guy Raz?

  Morty, he's a great cat, but he sheds everywhere. How does your, like, how is it different than, than like, you know, I don't know, a roller or other pet brush removers?

• 46:07Speaker 05

  Oh, let me count the ways.

• 46:10Guy Raz?

  Please, tell us, yes.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Count them out, count them out loud.

• 46:14Speaker 05

  Okay, I will. So if you have pets that have that very heavy undercoat, that soft fluffy stuff that sheds all year long, we make these fantastic bristle products that you just, you just brush back and forth across the hair. It picks it all up. There, there's no sticky roll or waste. There's, there's no peeling and it's, it's faster than vacuuming.

• 46:46Guy Raz?

  And you just pull the hair out and you just toss it in the?

• 46:49Speaker 05

  It, it stays right on top of the bristles and you just, I like to tell people, take the hair outside because birds like to use it for nests.

• 47:00Guy Raz?

  Wow, that's cool. It's like you're recycling like our, like James and plastics. You can build a nest for a bird and then, and then your cat can go and eat the bird.

• 47:11Speaker 05

  Oh dear, no.

• 47:13Guy Raz?

  How did you, tell me how you started this business because I, I see you started in 2010. What were you, I mean, did you have a different job? Were you doing something different in your life at that point?

• 47:23Speaker 05

  I was. It's, it's kind of one of those crazy stories.

• 47:29Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 05

  But I, I used to be a painter. I was a portrait and still life artist. And in 2009, I, I was a single mom and I shoveled a driveway full of snow.

• 47:48Speaker 05

  And it caused my widow maker artery to to dissect at the at the family dinner table. So

• 47:58Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 47:59Speaker 05

  Uh, after I was, I was very lucky to wake up the next morning. But I I went to reach for a water glass and my hands were shaking. They were like, they were like nervous parakeets. I'm sure you can hear it in my voice. I have now a pretty prominent tremor. And so, uh, I knew in that morning that my painting career was over.

• 48:35Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 48:36Speaker 05

  So, you know, I I've never looked back. I just, I knew I had to find a new career.

• 48:45Guy Raz?

  I mean, amazing, amazing story because you have this, of course, near death experience with the heart attack. And it completely changes your trajectory. You wait, I mean, you're a painter, you need still hands, but you have a tree, you develop a tremor. And you have to pivot, but it's like, it's so, I mean, it's one of those weird things. It's like that happened and that as a result of that, you started this thing. Right? Like this, none of this would have happened without that horrible tragedy, but it's an amazing kind of turn of events.

• 49:20Speaker 05

  I I just, that's, that's how my life has always been. I've had a lot of faith and just follow the lead. If something happens, you just keep going through it.

• 49:35Guy Raz?

  I love, I love your website. It's really clear. It pops. I like the logo lily brush, the red, it pops. How did you, how did you invent this thing?

• 49:45Speaker 05

  So I had to go to rehab for my heart and I always wore this polar fleece jacket. And this little dog Lily used to enjoy sitting on the couch with me. She's an Australian shepherd. Yeah, she's a very fluffy dog. All right. And so I'd go to rehab with all the other eighty year olds. And I was only forty eight when I have it. So I'd go and I'd be covered in pet hair and it was embarrassing. But so I went to to PetSmart and I looked to see if there was anything that would take care of the pet hair. And all they had was sticky roller.

• 50:30Speaker 05

  And I I hate single use products. Yeah. I just I so but I wasn't allowed to left it vacuumed. So I took the sticky roller home. And I would carry it with me and roll my fleece. And I just thought, there's gotta be a better way. And then one day I was scrubbing around the fixtures in my kitchen. And Lily happened to jump onto the couch in front of me and she had muddy paws. So I went over with a toothbrush and I I went to wipe the mud off of off of the couch.

• 51:14Speaker 05

  And I noticed that her hair stuck to the bristles. And I was like, oh, I I just, it was like, oh. So I I ran upstairs. I have two sons. I took both their toothbrushes, cut the heads off of them. And I I found this little palm sized block of wood in the garage. And I super glued these three toothbrush heads onto mine as well. Ha. And.

• 51:45Speaker 05

  My kids came home and they found me cleaning the whole house with this little block of wood with toothbrush heads on it. And I'm sure they thought I'd had a stroke.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  So Elsie, Guy has a question. I know this is in your head right now, Guy. Did you keep that prototype?

• 52:02Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  That you've got a, that's a, that's a Smithsonian, you know, museum piece. That is, that is so awesome.

• 52:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So Elsie, obviously is coming with a question of how, how can she scale this? How can she get the word out? How can she grow this thing? It's, she's been doing it for, since 2010.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:25Guy Raz?

  Gary, what, what's, what's your take?

• 52:28Speaker 01

  I, I need, I've got a lot. This is, I mean, I just got it. I'm so inspired by this story, all, all of it. So it's awareness and trial. Now, how do you do trial?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Question, do you, are you in like Petco or any of the, you know, Pet Mart or any of those retailers?

• 52:49Speaker 05

  So we're in this, I'm very proud of this. We're in a container store. That was our first big company and I, it took me a long time to get there. We are, we kill it on Amazon, even though after like the first year Alibaba just started pumping out copies, but cheap copies of our products. And the thing I hate about the products that these guys are making that are copying ours is that they, they only last for a week or two.

• 53:33Speaker 05

  And I built our products to last for really the lifetime of your pet.

• 53:41Guy Raz?

  I mean, that's, that's the competitive advantage. Gary, it makes me think of an episode we did on TRX straps with Randy Hetrick several years ago, because that happened right away. All of a sudden, all these copycats, and they were poor quality. But, you know, he spent and still spends a lot of money suing them. And I know you don't have those kinds of, those resources and time, and it's a pain. But I feel like a simple fix is, is to emphasize what you just said. You know, the original and, you know, best, because I feel like that is, you know, the brand is what was, is your advantage here, right?

• 54:21Speaker 05

  Right. We, it's, it's a tough one, Guy, because when I first started talking to buyers, they used to kind of laugh at me because they're like, why would you make something that lasts for years and years? We don't, we don't want that. We want the repurchase. But the fact that these things last so long has been kind of one of our problems.

• 54:50Guy Raz?

  I wonder whether there, you know, I think about partnerships, right? And I'm, you know, increasingly, you're seeing collaborations, right, with brands. And certainly in apparel, Adidas and Gucci or Liquid Death does, that's not apparel, but they're doing partnerships with different kinds of brands like grooming, men's grooming, for example. I wonder if there's a way for you to partner with a product that is associated with cleaning cars, I mean, or carpets, something like that where they get it, you know, they get it with that product.

• 55:29Speaker 05

  I think about that, too. And like a different vacuum, like a Bissell or something like that.

• 55:38Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 55:39Speaker 05

  That's, that's a great point, Guy.

• 55:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah, especially a product like Bissell or like a, a brand like that, that's not, it's probably a little easier to get to, to the, to the right person there. It's not an Adidas where there's a bazillion people pitching them. And I don't think a lot of people are pitching Bissell for, for collaborations, but you know, it could be kind of cool, right? Or like, you're like, like this to me seems like, you know how Slim Jim is it, it like Slim Jim is at the checkout counter of every convenience store, right? And like, that's basically, you know, how Slim Jim and now Five Hour Energy is there too. Like, I see this as a product that's at the checkout of every car wash, right?

• 56:17Speaker 05

  That would be ideal. And I do go to the car wash trade show. And I did, the first year I went, I thought it was, I'd made a terrible mistake. Because I had this little 10 foot booth and I'm in this hall with all these spinning brushes, bright lights, and I sort of timidly went and started doing demos. And the next thing I knew, my, my booth was three people deep, just mobbed for, for three days. So that's when, when Gary talks about

• 57:00Speaker 05

  going and giving away product at, at bike events. You know, I, that resonates with me because I knew I'd hit something that, but we're still just a little tiny brand. We're still, you know, they talk on Shark Tank, they talk about the cockroach that people can stomp on. We're still that little guy. And it, it makes me nervous. It's 14 years and, you know, we're trying so hard. And, and we're still that little guy.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Well, first off, don't give up.

• 57:45Speaker 05

  Okay. I'm an effort.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Because I think you've got, you have something here. I wouldn't even, I'm embarrassed that I didn't know your brand before this because we've had, you've, I've got these sort of sayings about innovation and so on. You've solved a problem. Cliff Bar, to me, solved a problem with a better tasting energy bar. And, you know, you're in, it's inventive. It's totally original. I mean, how can you get more original than using toothbrushes to make your first product? And it's transformative. You know, you're, it's for people that have this issue. We, everybody that has a dog and a cat pretty much has this issue. And we all want to solve it, but we just are lazy and we just, you know, and it's hard. And you try to vacuum, vacuum doesn't work and the roly thing doesn't work. So there's that.

• 58:34Guy Raz?

  I feel like it's a matter of time in some ways. This is the kind of product that if you could get it into the hands of a couple of the celebrities who just have, you know, who post with their pet all the time. Like I think, I don't know if Chrissy Teigen has pets, but I just think of somebody like that, you know, like Chrissy Teigen, who's like associated with like cooking and a beautiful house and like, you just imagine her like, oh my God, this like, you know, here I am brushing this off with this thing. I think to get to some of those really high end ones, you've got to incentivize them. You know, you've got to say something like, look, we're trying to scale this and, you know, we'd love to partner with you in some way.

• 59:16Guy Raz?

  I don't know what that would look like, but to me, it's just a matter of like getting it into, getting it to a place where somebody like that, who's a real like lifestyle influencer, gets people excited about it. Because as Gary said, it's a great product. It's just a matter of getting it, getting in front of the right eyeballs.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Question, how many people are with you in your company?

• 59:42Speaker 05

  Um, there are four of us.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Four people is pretty lean.

• 59:47Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Um.

• 59:49Speaker 05

  It's tough.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I love Guy's idea of the retail thing, like at the counter. I mean, we've all bought stuff that when we're in a store like, ah, I've never, I didn't, what's that? Oh, okay, I'll buy that. And you may have to bring on a salesperson that you've never thought of needing before that can go to the, the.

• 1:00:09Guy Raz?

  The car washes and yeah.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  The car wash and the Walgreens and the, you know, and the Fridays, whatever.

• 1:00:14Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:15Speaker 05

  You know, we've bootstrapped it, so it's been slow growth.

• 1:00:19Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Speaker 05

  But we've got money in the bank.

• 1:00:23Guy Raz?

  That's awesome.

• 1:00:24Speaker 05

  So I, I just, I just have to figure out who to hire. I'm really into giving people a shot, you know? Show me what you got and, and do your best and let's see. So I get, you know, marketing people from University of Denver. And they, it was cool, you know, two, three years watching someone develop. But I think it's time that we go and we find someone who really knows what the heck they're doing. And, and we do, we do have the money to do that.

• 1:01:06Speaker 05

  I just, honestly, I've, I've done this whole thing. I've flown by the seat of my pants.

• 1:01:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Speaker 05

  This whole time.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  It's super impressive and, you know, for the, for the record, I think if you can do it self-funded, then you control your destiny. Kit and I never took a dime from anybody over our 30 years of running Cliff Bar. We never brought on an equity partner.

• 1:01:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Guy Raz?

  I'm Elsie. We're gonna, we're gonna be following you and Lily Brush and, and good luck. Thank you for calling in. I think you've got something there and I think in about six months' time from now, if we check in on you again, you will have hired somebody to take the load off and hopefully to start to really do some of that business expansion that you're not able to do because of the other stuff you have to focus on.

• 1:01:59Speaker 05

  I hope so. And Guy and Gary, thank you so much. You guys are my heroes.

• 1:02:09Guy Raz?

  I'll take it.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Well, you're so welcome. And thank you. And you know, we're just starting to roll. So just keep this momentum going with other people and keep this conversation going with other people that can support what we've talked about and help you take it up a notch or two or more.

• 1:02:27Guy Raz?

  Thank you, Elsie. And we'll be in touch.

• 1:02:30Speaker 05

  All right.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Great job. So I'm ordering one tonight.

• 1:02:34Guy Raz?

  You're gonna be saddled with all these products after today, Gary.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  I'm solving all kinds of problems today.

• 1:02:38Guy Raz?

  Kids are gonna be like, what's up with all these packages coming to our house?

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:02:43Guy Raz?

  We're getting ski goggles and I got a brush and now I've got all this, like, these crafts. What's going on?

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I have, like, all of our friends have animals. I'm probably gonna order a dozen of these and then pass them around and then tell them to... See, that's the other way to do it. You know, this is a word of mouth product.

• 1:03:03Guy Raz?

  It's a word of mouth product.

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  And you could have a brush in every vehicle you've got, in every, you know, room you've got. They're just sitting there because then you don't have to go, where's that brush?

• 1:03:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  They're everywhere.

• 1:03:16Guy Raz?

  Okay. All right. Gary, thank you so much for coming back on the show. It's awesome having you.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  I'm honored. Thank you so much.

• 1:03:23Guy Raz?

  That's Gary Erickson, founder of Cliff Bar. And by the way, if you haven't heard Gary's original, How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and check it out. It's so fun. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  You know, I remember setting up a little table and standing out there in the aisle with a tray of cut up bars. And as people walked by, I'd say, hey, try this new energy bar. And they were like, no, no, no, I've had an energy bar. I don't want to try it. Oh, come on, just try it. And they'd try it. And then they would walk along and they wouldn't want to look back. And it's like, because they were gonna, you know, didn't want to embarrass me. And then they would be chewing it and they would turn around and go, come right back and go, what is that?

• 1:04:04Guy Raz?

  And by the way, since we first ran this episode, a few cool things have happened for the startup entrepreneurs we talked to. James's company actually collaborated with an eyewear brand on a pair of snow goggles made entirely with stoked plastics, and it's now available at REI. And Elsie, well, back in May, she underwent surgery to correct her tremor, and it was a success. Slowly but surely, she is regaining control of her hand and voice again. It's awesome news. Congrats, Elsie. Thank you, everybody, for listening to the show this week. If you are working on a business and you would like to be on this show, please send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues and your questions or problems that you would like help with. And please make sure to tell us how to reach you.

• 1:04:49Guy Raz?

  You can send us that voice memo at [email protected], or you can call us 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there, and we'll put all of this in the podcast description on your smartphone. Thanks again. We will see you back here next time. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was James Willetts. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Elaine Coats, Jaycee Howard, Niva Grant, Devin Schwartz, Catherine Seifer, and Carrie Thompson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab.