767 Greg Louganis: Silence the Haters

VALIDATION IS REDUNDANT. As many of you know, I didn’t have friends growing up. I couldn’t read and write until late high school. I was goofy and gangly. I got made fun of all the time. Sports was something I could finally understand. I was able to prove myself by what I could accomplish on the field. But then I placed my self worth in what I could achieve in football. If I lost a game, I felt terrible. If I won, I felt great. It was so unhealthy. We need to be careful where we get our self-worth. Instead of earning it through outside validation, we should get it from the kindness in our heart, the positivity that we bring, and who you are. Learn to have unconditional love for yourself. On today’s episode of The School of Greatness, I talk about self with the greatest diver in history who is also a great person and advocate: Greg Louganis. Greg Louganis is simply the greatest diver in history. Today, as a speaker, author, actor, activist, humanitarian and designer, he continues his tradition of excellence. Greg was the first openly gay diver in history. He is also HIV positive. He now uses his story to empower others. So get ready to learn about the mindset of an Olympic champion on Episode 767. Some Questions I Ask: What was the greatest lesson you learned during the Olympic boycott? (8:00) How would you approach your dives at The Olympics vs. practice? (12:00) What was your first Olympic dive like? (16:00) Were you driven to achieve because you were adopted? (20:00) How do you cope with something like an HIV diagnosis? (40:00) What is the biggest challenge you’ve faced in your life? (48:00) In This Episode You Will Learn: Why Greg thinks the Olympic boycott may have been a blessing (4:00) Why obstacles in training are important (9:00) How to tap into inspiration as opposed to fear (17:00) About Greg’s experience being HIV positive (35:00) How imagination and visualization can help you succeed despite all odds (39:00) The method Greg uses to teach visualization (1:00:00) Follow me on: Instagram: @lewishowes Twitter: @LewisHowes Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 767 with Olympic legend Greg Louganis. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:32Lewis Howes?

  Christopher Reeve said, "A hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles." John Quincy Adams said, "Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish." Welcome to this episode. We have the legendary Olympian Greg Louganis on the show, who is one of the most decorated Olympic divers of all time, arguably one of the greatest divers of all time, LGBT activist, humanitarian, author, and designer who has won gold medals at the

• 1:11Lewis Howes?

  1984 and 88 Summer Olympics on both the springboard and platform. He is the only male and the second diver in Olympic history to sweep the diving events in consecutive Olympic Games. And in this interview, we talk about his historical Olympic run and what it took to be a champion, and the mindset of a champion. We talk about how Greg felt winning was needed in order to feel loved or being worth of love. Powerful insights there. We talked about how he handled having HIV when at the time, it seemed like a death sentence. Also, the power of sharing your weakness to reveal your strength. This is a powerful episode.

• 1:55Lewis Howes?

  Make sure to share it with your friends, lewishouse.com/767, tag myself @lewishouse, and tag Greg on Instagram as well to let us know what you enjoyed about this the most. Big thank you again to our sponsors today, and I'm so excited about this one. Again, make sure to share with your friends. Let me know what you think over on Instagram. Take a screenshot of this podcast right now, post it over there so we can connect. And without further ado, let's dive into this with the one and the only Greg Louganis.

• 2:29Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness Podcast. We have a living legend in the house, Greg Louganis. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 2:38Lewis Howes?

  You're one of the icons in the Olympics, greatest diver of all time, and you just had an incredible life story. Beyond, you know, being an Olympian, multiple gold medal winner. I'm still sad that you didn't compete in, what was it, the 1980 Olympics? Wasn't that boycott?

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, boycott was 1980. That was the Moscow Olympics.

• 2:58Lewis Howes?

  So you were 16 when you did the first Olympics in 76. And you were just like taking over the world by storm. You got a silver medal then, I think. Is that right?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  I got a silver medal there.

• 3:08Lewis Howes?

  16 years old.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Then I was world champion.

• 3:11Lewis Howes?

  Two years later. And you should have won like two medals in eight. What was that like during that time where? Did you want to boycott or was it just like?

• 3:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:20Lewis Howes?

  You just had to.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Well, what happened, I mean, because I was one of the team captains for the diving team. And so the team captains all from all the different sports got together. And we were kind of addressing this because we were in DC and we were going to have a chance to talk to President Carter and all that. So it was our feeling that we had such a strong team in 1980 in swimming and so many other sports. So we wanted to go send one person into the opening and closing ceremonies. And everybody stay back in protest, but go over there and kick ass, basically. So that was what we wanted.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  But our voices were never heard because as soon as President Carter made his address, then the media was escorted out. And then we were able to give our views and let our voices be heard. Unfortunately, our voices weren't heard. But you live and learn. I kind of think back on it too, is that In some ways, it might have been a blessing for me.

• 4:30Lewis Howes?

  Really, why?

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Because in 1980, diving was something I was good at. It wasn't something I was necessarily enjoying.

• 4:38Lewis Howes?

  Why weren't you enjoying it?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Well, because I was in theater. I was looking forward to pursuing my acting and getting going on that, whether it be New York or, you know, because most of it was theater.

• 4:48Lewis Howes?

  Two were dance major, theater and dance major, right, in college?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:52Lewis Howes?

  So this was your college years, actually.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:54Lewis Howes?

  Sixteen and then, yeah, so you'd be twenty, twenty-one.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was twenty.

• 4:58Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  And so had they happened, had I been successful, I probably would have gone on.

• 5:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  And who knows? I mean, who, who really knows? You never know.

• 5:11Lewis Howes?

  Well, I just feel so bad for all the, the people that had their one chance.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:15Lewis Howes?

  They trained for ten years, twenty years for one moment.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  I mean, the way that I like to explain it to people is when you think of an elite athlete, it's like a carton of milk. They have an expiration date.

• 5:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  And it's like, if you go past that expiration date, you're out of luck. I mean, you, you missed that opportunity. And there were so many talented athletes that missed that opportunity.

• 5:40Lewis Howes?

  That didn't make it the next, in four years later, right?

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:43Lewis Howes?

  So you were lucky to make it the next two Olympics.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:45Lewis Howes?

  Some people didn't make it at all, though, right?

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:48Lewis Howes?

  Was there anyone else that you knew from the 1980 time that did come back and had a successful experience? And were like, got their redemption of a moment?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  I probably would, I'm not sure, because he was, I think he was just coming up rowdy gains.

• 6:05Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  I think Nancy Hogs had, there were a few individuals that kind of were able to hang in there and stick it out. But it also depended on the sport, too.

• 6:19Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Because, I mean, if you're a gymnast, who?

• 6:23Lewis Howes?

  You have like a one-year, two-year window.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, on the women's side, they're, you know, young ladies are, they're, they're young.

• 6:33Lewis Howes?

  That's devastating. That's gonna be so hard, and that's your whole life's mission. And then you just get kind of robbed of it.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:39Lewis Howes?

  What was the greatest lesson you learned about yourself during that time?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Greatest lesson at that time?

• 6:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Eighty to eighty-four.

• 6:49Lewis Howes?

  In the eighties, when you got a taste of the Olympics, you get silver and you're like, okay, I'm gonna win the gold next time. And then, oh, I have to wait eight more years.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Eight more years, yeah. You know, that was really, really tough. I mean, that was a hard pill to swallow. I wasn't sure if I was really gonna be able to keep motivated.

• 7:10Lewis Howes?

  Stay training, right?

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, well, I had started diving with my coach, Ron O'Brien. That's who I, from seventy-eight to eighty-eight, he was my coach. And the one thing that he was incredible at is really keeping me motivated. I mean, he devised games. I mean, we played games. And it's like anything, you get good at what you practice. And so, one of the games that we used to play was the seven hundred game on ten-meter platform. And I didn't like to do repeats of my dives. So if I could get out with just doing one apiece, then I was golden. So in order to break seven hundred on ten-meter platform,

• 7:54Speaker 01

  I had to do all ten dives in the eight-and-a-half range. And, you know, I had to average eight and a half. Scoring eight and halves on all ten dives, but the average. So.

• 8:06Lewis Howes?

  Who was the judge?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  He was the judge.

• 8:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it was interesting because sometimes I was successful, sometimes I wasn't. And one time, at one practice, it was gale-force winds blowing into the platform. And it was raining and all that. And I said, okay, we're gonna play the seven hundred game. I'm like, oh, cool. You know, so I get all warmed up and ready to go and I start going. And I got through. I was jumping back and forth over that eight-and-a-half line. And I was like, really, really close and came in the last dive and got it. I was like, oh, great, awesome. You know, I was successful. So packed my bag, left. I showed up at the pool the next day. My coach pulls me aside.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Ron says, you know, you're the only one who got in the pool yesterday.

• 8:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  And I was like, wow. You know, because. You have to put yourself in diverse situations.

• 9:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  In order to be able to practice at a very high level so that you're prepared. So I always, what a lot of athletes, a lot of divers would look at as obstacles. I looked at it as opportunities.

• 9:24Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  You know, that was an opportunity to train in miserable weather. How successful can I be? It's not about perfection. You know, perfection's unobtainable. But how close can you get to that mark of perfection?

• 9:42Lewis Howes?

  Right, except that time you got all perfect tens, right?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  I did that a few times, but yeah, you know, but even.

• 9:49Lewis Howes?

  You can always get better, you can always get better.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, even still, I, you know, I'd always say that we can come back to the pool five, five minutes, five weeks, five months later, and the scores will change.

• 10:00Lewis Howes?

  You're right, it's true.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  You know.

• 10:02Lewis Howes?

  It's true. It's all based on like what people are feeling that moment and what they saw and their perspective.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Cause a ten is really emotional. I've judged before and it's like, you know, in order to, you have to be touched emotionally.

• 10:14Lewis Howes?

  Moved.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  By the, moved by the, by the performance.

• 10:17Lewis Howes?

  Not just the technicality of it. That's like nine point eight. If it's a perfect technically, nine point seven, nine point eight.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:25Lewis Howes?

  But it's when you see the emotion probably of the diver, right?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:28Lewis Howes?

  Or the moments and the validity of it.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  I mean, I think there's some people who would argue about that, but you know, I, I think it really is. I mean, the, you know, your tens are kind of more on the emotional side of.

• 10:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  You know, wow, that was awesome.

• 10:43Lewis Howes?

  Gotta be, right?

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:45Lewis Howes?

  Wow, it's amazing. How would you approach your dives at the Olympics versus at practice? Would you set up and prepare like it was an Olympics or a world championship? Every single time you stepped on the platform?

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Not every single time. Not every single time because there's different cycles of training. So sometimes you're just get, trying to get the numbers in.

• 11:08Lewis Howes?

  Good reps.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Trying to get the, yeah, get the muscle memory of doing the dive, of the execution of the dive. There are other times where the focus is on, on the performance. You are. Incredibly focused. That was one thing that my, one of my earlier coaches, Dr. Sammy Lee, he taught me in preparation for my first Olympics in 76. He would always set up this situation. Okay, Klaus DiBiase is beating you by 12 points. You need eight and a half, nines on this. And it's like, okay. So I'd get all ready to go. And sometimes I was successful, sometimes I wasn't. But putting myself in that frame of mind, that mental state,

• 11:51Speaker 01

  allowed me to practice and rehearse so that when I showed up, that was the first Olympics that I'd ever been to. Crazy. I mean, that was, that was a first world stage event. Really? That I had ever been to. You didn't do a world championship? In the senior, on the senior level. Sure, sure. I did as an age group diver. Right, right. You know, this was like the biggest stage. And it's the Olympic Games. Wow. But I was groomed, I was prepared for it. Wow. So. And you got the silver. Yeah. Were you close to getting a gold? Yeah, actually, the, one of the judges, RJ Smith, he was a judge for that Olympic Games. And he came to me and I missed my ninth dive. That's basically what happened.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  And he came over and he thanked me for my ninth dive. Because he said, if you didn't miss that ninth dive, then we would have had to protest the scores. You know, because it was, you know. Political, it was this. Yeah, you know, you have politics in there. I think diving is probably one of the more objective, subjective sports, but it's still a subjective sport. Yeah. Like gymnastics, right? Yeah, yeah. And also, you know, and this is what I tell the athletes that I work with in mentoring them is that even in prelims, it's your responsibility to educate the judges, to show the judges that you're worthy.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  You're worthy of getting the eights, nines, tens. How do you show them you're worthy? By your performance. Your performance, is it the energy? Is it how you approach as well? Or is it just only on results? It's, it's results based. Yeah. Because you.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  All the good wishes in the world aren't gonna make things happen.

• 13:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  So.

• 13:39Lewis Howes?

  Is there like an energy that when a diver, you know, if they miss and they put their head down or they're angry, does that make them less desirable of getting good scores? Is it kind of how you show up with your poise and your energy or is that?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  I think that's a part of it, most definitely, because no matter what a judge says, as soon as you walk out on the board and the focus is on you, you're being judged.

• 14:04Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely, everything.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:06Lewis Howes?

  The way you walk, the way you hold yourself, yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And so when you were there, when you were 16, what was that first dive like? First world stage at the Olympics?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  The interesting thing was I won the Olympic trials in both three meter springboard and 10 meter platform.

• 14:23Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Basically, what I believe happened was the top divers, they put pressure on themselves. When you, you know, when you show up to an event, I mean, there is an energy. Now, if you interpret that energy as pressure, then you're more apt to implode. But if you interpret that energy as inspiration, that is what motivates you, drives you to be better than you ever dreamed you could be. So if you tap into that inspiration, then you're gonna see a lot more success.

• 15:02Lewis Howes?

  How did you learn how to tap into that inspiration or love feeling as opposed to pressure or fear?

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Well, I, I started dancing when I was a year and a half. And I was performing on stage when I was three. So when you hit the stage and the music starts, there's no stop. It's like, oh, sorry, I missed a step. No, you can't. You gotta muddle through, fake it till you make it, you know, get through. And so you learn that mentality. And I think I was just so, that was so ingrained in me. That I was able to learn how to utilize that energy of all of these people. Oh my God, they're looking at me, you know, and especially as a kid, you know, you're really self-conscious. Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  It's like, oh my God, everybody's watching. So then the elation is in the performance and the success in the performance. And then the applause at the end. Right. So, I mean, that's tremendously rewarding. Wow. And you were adopted early, right? When you were? Nine months old. Nine months old. I spent my first nine months in foster care. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, yeah. Where do you think you'd be if you weren't adopted?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  What would your life look like? Would you be a diver? Would you be a dancer? Would you be, you know, all these things you're doing? Would you be? I don't know. I'd probably be a surfer. A surfer? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Do you ever think about that? Like, I wonder? I connected with my biological father. So he is Samoan. He's in Hawaii. Wow. And I have a brother and two sisters, half siblings. It was interesting because when, when I first met Fubali, it was after the eighty-four Olympic Games. And so I was a little skeptical. Twenty-four at this time? I was twenty-four. Wow. And so then I met, I met Cheryl Lynn and Geraldine and Malcolm.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  And Malcolm was in, I think he was in weightlifting at the time. And then he went into body, bodybuilding and then powerlifting. So he was quite the athlete, but I was water, he was on, on land. Yeah. So, but I always knew because where I was adopted, home of the Guiding Hands, they said, one of the nurses who had met. My parents, I guess, or she said she did, stated that my father wanted to raise me. And so.

• 17:35Lewis Howes?

  That's nice.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I always knew that he wanted me. That also is, goes back to the Samoan or Polynesian culture. You know, that's what families do. They don't, you know, they don't give up their children. It's, it may be a relative or somebody. It stays in the family.

• 17:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow, yeah, the grandmother.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:56Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like you were driven to achieve at such a high level because of your, because of being adopted by any chance? Do you feel like that was a part of like a driving force? Like I'm gonna prove these people wrong or show them anything?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I think that, I think it was a combination, whether it be, you know, adoption, my sexual identity. I mean, it was any number of things that were really contributing factors into that desperation of having to succeed.

• 18:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Early on in my diving career, you know, cause I was being called sissy boy and, you know, nigger and because of dark skin, my dark skin.

• 18:41Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really challenging growing up.

• 18:44Lewis Howes?

  Not many young boys are doing dance and theater and diving.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, that's a sissy sport.

• 18:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, right.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  You know?

• 18:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  So.

• 18:51Lewis Howes?

  Especially back in the 60s, 70s, yeah, right?

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, when I was getting my, getting beat up at the bus stop and my father drives by and getting my face, you know, pushed into the asphalt. I felt like my father felt the same way that these other kids did.

• 19:07Lewis Howes?

  Your biological father or your adopted father?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  My adopted father.

• 19:11Lewis Howes?

  You felt like he felt the same way that?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that I was worthless.

• 19:15Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 19:15Speaker 01

  That I was a sissy boy and all that. Because I, I didn't know that he was ever, he never got involved with my dance, acrobatics, gymnastics.

• 19:24Lewis Howes?

  So you wanna come and watch or support?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, not that I knew of. But when I took care of him, the last six weeks of his life, he died of cancer. He shared with me that when I was performing, then he would sneak out of work and come and watch.

• 19:39Lewis Howes?

  Wow, oh my gosh.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  But I never knew.

• 19:41Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Never told me or.

• 19:43Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  He never shared that with me until, you know, he's about ready to die.

• 19:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  So.

• 19:50Lewis Howes?

  What was the greatest lessons you learned from your your parents, your adopted parents?

• 19:54Speaker 01

  I think the greatest lesson that I learned from my mom. Because she was my champion. You know, when you're that young, you don't have mentors, you know, really, you have champions. And she was my champion. And she taught me about unconditional love. And not just, and it just, it wasn't just words.

• 20:15Lewis Howes?

  She embodied it.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  She embodied it. She was, that's who she was to me.

• 20:22Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  And I asked her some questions about, you know, some of the challenges that I had with a sister that I was raised with. And she said, well, you know, that's your sister. That's, you know, she is who she is. And I love her, you know, unconditionally. It's like, oh, okay. So, I mean, it really kind of solidified that it is possible. That unconditional love is possible.

• 20:50Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Doesn't mean you have to agree with everything that someone does. Or be excited about certain decisions or choices they make, but you can still love them.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:01Lewis Howes?

  Okay, so the unconditional love from your mom.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, unconditional love from my mom.

• 21:06Lewis Howes?

  And your dad?

• 21:06Speaker 01

  My dad, he was more of a skeptic. So it was, you know, be cautious. Look before you leap kind of, kind of thing. Wish I had learned that lesson a little bit better. Because I kind of like jump into things.

• 21:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  And then it's like, okay, what was I thinking?

• 21:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's cool. What were the qualities that they embodied that inspire you to be so driven?

• 21:36Lewis Howes?

  Towards all of your activities, not just diving, but do you feel like it, they guided you to being a champion? Or were there other outside factors or internal factors that?

• 21:46Speaker 01

  I think initially, there were a lot of internal factors. And that was, you know, proving myself. Like I said, when I first started on the world stage in diving, that came from, my success came from a very desperate place. In order for me to be loved or worthy of being loved, I had to win.

• 22:08Lewis Howes?

  I know the same feeling.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  And I was trying to gain the respect and love from my dad.

• 22:14Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:15Lewis Howes?

  You didn't feel love from him growing up?

• 22:17Speaker 01

  I felt like it was conditional.

• 22:20Lewis Howes?

  Unless you succeeded, then he was proud of you?

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, then maybe he might be proud of me. But you felt that way?

• 22:26Lewis Howes?

  I felt that way, not from my parents, but from like everyone else around me. Like I had, I didn't have friends growing up. I was the youngest of four and I was just picked on and bullied a lot. I was like this tall when I was 10 years old. I was like this gangly goofy kid and I couldn't read and write. Till I got into like late high school.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  You have a learning difference?

• 22:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, dyslexia. Now that it's, you know, so I didn't know what it was then. I just remember being like, why can't I read this? And I just reading over and over and being like, I don't even remember what this paragraph says.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 22:57Lewis Howes?

  And horrible and test taking and just memorization, everything about school was a disaster until three o'clock when sports came around. And that's where I channeled all my energy.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Lewis Howes?

  It's like something I could finally understand, just a ball and putting it into like, you know, it's like something simple.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:16Lewis Howes?

  And learning how to just have vision. I just, I had great vision. I knew where to be.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:22Lewis Howes?

  But I didn't know how to read and write.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:24Lewis Howes?

  And so I, and I just got made fun of a lot.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:27Lewis Howes?

  For being like special needs classes, so.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  You know, it's interesting because there are so many incredible athletes. Bruce, now Caitlyn Jenner, she has a learning difference. Jackie Joyner-Kersey, you know, there's some incredible athletes that have really made their mark on the world stage. And talking with a lot of them, growing up.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  We didn't feel, and you may have felt this way too, that you didn't have your academics, but you could show people.

• 23:58Lewis Howes?

  Something, my worth.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  You could do something, that you had value.

• 24:02Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. And that's why I had to win at all costs too. I was a horrible loser.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:07Lewis Howes?

  When I lose, when I lost, I would just be miserably around for days, until the next competition.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you're, I don't know, I'm sure it was the same way that I felt too, is that my training, my competition was a reflection of my self-esteem.

• 24:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, your self-worth.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when I was successful, then yay, I'm on top of the world.

• 24:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  You know, when I'm not successful, I'm worthless, I...

• 24:39Lewis Howes?

  I think that's a challenge because we're so conditioned to acknowledge the people who are succeeding in business, or their career, or having successful relationships, or sports. And we put so much of our self-worth into our self-accomplishments.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:57Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to the progress we make, or the generosity we have, or the kindness in our hearts, or the positivity we bring.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:05Lewis Howes?

  And it's just so hard because everything's...

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Has that evolved for you?

• 25:08Lewis Howes?

  I think it has. Yeah, for me it has. Over the last six years, I've gone on a much deeper journey, where I achieved everything for the first 30 years of my life. All my dreams I went after I was achieving. I was a professional football player, I made millions of dollars, I had, you know, beautiful girlfriends. Like, all the things you're supposed to have as a, like, a straight man, right? It was like, that makes you successful. I was achieving.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:31Lewis Howes?

  But feeling so miserable and suffering inside.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:35Lewis Howes?

  And I didn't understand why until about six years ago. Started to go on a journey and heal everything from my past.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:41Lewis Howes?

  Talked about sexual abuse I went through when I was five, from a man that I didn't know. Talked about when my brother was in prison for years, and all the, you know, there's the struggles in school, my parents got divorced. For me, there's a lot of people who've gone through a lot worse. But for me, it was a lot to deal with at the time.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:58Lewis Howes?

  And I never addressed it because as a straight white man in sports, growing up, you weren't allowed to express it without being called-

• 26:07Speaker 01

  You're not given permission.

• 26:08Lewis Howes?

  Not given permission.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:09Lewis Howes?

  There was no groups to talk to about, you couldn't-

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:13Lewis Howes?

  If I tried to open up to guy friends, they would just be like, get off me.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  Wussy, girl, whatever, you know, any, any name.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:20Lewis Howes?

  And that's just a challenge. It's just hard to, yeah, feel like you can express yourself.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Do you find yourself kind of going back and forth sometimes over that, that embracing, embracing of like all the parts of yourself?

• 26:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I go back and forth, but I'm, I only go back for moments.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:41Lewis Howes?

  And then I'm so quick-

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Just moments?

• 26:42Lewis Howes?

  We're so quick to aware, be aware and be like, okay.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:45Lewis Howes?

  I'm living in fear, I'm living in anxiety, I'm living in the past, I'm living in hurt.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:49Lewis Howes?

  Like, what can I be grateful for in this moment? And that's why gratitude is a huge part of my life, because when I'm in gratitude, it just fills my heart with more love than fear and pain.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Where did you get that lesson?

• 27:03Lewis Howes?

  I think a lot of suffering, where a lot of like breakdown, where I finally was like, I've been doing this podcast for six years, I've been interviewing some of the world's greatest spiritual leaders, I've done meditation retreats and just tons of emotional intelligence workshops, and I think through taking action on diving through the pain and the emotions and communicating, the realizations have been coming up. And I've been practicing over the last six years. So I learned about these things six years ago.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:31Lewis Howes?

  Practicing it daily is something that's challenging to do, because I can go back into a, a bad place.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Do you schedule that in your-

• 27:39Lewis Howes?

  Every morning, I-

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Every day?

• 27:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, every morning I have a routine.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  It's kind of the habit, it's a routine.

• 27:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you know, my voicemail, when someone calls me, my first thing is, if you want to leave a message, you have to tell me what you're grateful for first.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:51Lewis Howes?

  So, so throughout the day, I'm always expressing gratitude, I journal about what I'm grateful for at night, you know, I'm talking about, they're constant reminders in my life. And I think it's challenging because- As an athlete, I think you could understand and appreciate this. We're so used to like going after the next big competition or the next big event. What's the thing that we can chase after and win? And when there's no big competition, it's like, how do we value our self-worth? How do I identify with that? So I've learned to more focus on like what I can control, my health. Like, did I show up today and take care of my health? Did I do a tough workout? Did I eat well? Was I kind to people today? Did I do something in my mission, which is part of this show?

• 28:36Lewis Howes?

  Did I interview someone and really tap into their heart? And spread that message to help people? What are the things on a daily basis that I can control? The Olympics, you know, I haven't made the Olympics. I'm on the USA team for the last seven and a half, eight years. Now we haven't qualified since 96, since it was in Atlanta. So it's like, okay. Am I worthy, even though I haven't qualified for the Olympics? It's just like constantly being a reminder of like every day I have an opportunity to grow. And as long as I focus on growth, then I, I feel good within my heart. That's what I focus on. So it's not easy.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  It's not easy. And even someone like you, I bet it's really challenging because there's so many guys in the NFL that I know who are living in the glory days of their past. It's like, I used to be this great athlete. I used to get all the recognition. And I can only imagine, I almost like, I have some Olympic friends that I feel somewhat bad for. They had all this fame when they were 18, 20, 22, the world stage. And then they don't know what their identity is anymore. And I can only imagine that is worse than like, I don't know, not making it all. And like constantly progressing. It's like you had the top and now who are you? Have you ever faced that or felt that like?

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, most definitely.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  I think it's one of those things because it is such a high high. Huge, right? You know, yeah, I mean, it's a really high high. Everyone in the world is watching you. Yeah, and so it's like, I think it's something that, that's why I asked, you know, if you go back and forth with that, because it's hard to like stay on point, stay in that positive, because we always have challenges and they can come from god knows where, you know, at very different times. But most definitely after I retired from diving, actually had two, I announced two retirements. I was supposed to retire after the 84 Olympic Games. Wow. I was totally dead set. I got my two gold medals, Olympic gold medals. I won the nationals right after that.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  So it was a record number of national titles any, from any other diver. And then I was going to retire. So, but the thing was in 84, I was pushing, I was one of the athlete representatives that was pushing to have trust funds put into place for the younger divers. So that they could continue diving after college. And have the financial means to be able to do that. Because they're making no money. Because they're making no money. Nothing. So I went to the president at that time of USA diving and I said, look, you know, I was a part of the athlete reps to have trust funds put into place, what's going on? And his response to me was, well, you're the only one that it affects and you're retiring.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  So we don't have to put the money into getting the trust funds put into place. I said, fine, I'm not retiring, do your homework. Wow. And so it was my intent to stay eligible until the time that trust funds were put into place for the younger divers. Wow, that's cool. Because at least I will have done something for the younger divers coming behind me. Yeah, the legacy. Yeah, and so, as it turned out, it took two years.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  To get done, trust funds were put into place. And I found myself at the world championships. I was successful. I won the world championships in three meter springboard, ten meter platform. And my coach turns to me and says, well, it's two more years. Can you stick it out? But it's like, oh, okay, two more years. I can wrap my head around two more years. And so I hung in there for another two years. And but never did I, in my wildest dreams, would I realize what that meant. What did it mean? Six months prior to the Olympic Games, I was diagnosed HIV positive. Right. And so. It was extremely controversial at that time, right? It was a very. Oh, no, you didn't say a word about it.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  I mean, being gay at that time was like, you didn't talk about that, right? I mean, it's just like, that was looked down upon and all these things, right? Socially not acceptable. Because it was interesting, because I was out to my friends and family. You know, once I went to college. Right. And so, but then after the eighty-four Olympic Games, and I signed on with William Morris Agency, they was like, well, Craig, tone down the gay thing. I was like, oh, okay. So it was my policy not to discuss my personal life with members of the media. I mean, there's plenty to read between the lines. You could figure it out if you read enough articles. Sure, sure. And I really didn't care because the people who I cared about knew. But HIV, oh, my God.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  I mean, my thought was when I had my test sent out and we did it under an assumed name. And my thought was, before I got the test results back, was I was dead set that if I was HIV positive, then I was gonna pack my bags, because I was training in Florida at the time. Pack my bags, go back to California, lock myself in my house and wait to die. No way. Because that's what we thought of HIV at that time. It was a death sentence. I mean, people weren't lasting more than a couple of years after their diagnosis. I mean, we had friends dying right and left. So that was my thought. But my cousin, who was my doctor in Florida,

• 34:10Speaker 01

  he convinced me to stay and train, that that would be the healthiest thing for me.

• 34:16Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  I was really grateful.

• 34:18Lewis Howes?

  You got the results back and he said stay and train?

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. That he said that he wanted to treat me aggressively and he'd take care of the medical stuff. And Ron O'Brien would take care of the diving stuff. And also, it was easier for me to focus on something like diving because it was a lot more positive.

• 34:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  I'm really grateful for that because at least I had the diving, that I wasn't focused on, oh my god, HIV, I'm dying. Yeah. So I had something positive to focus on. So I think that that really enabled me to learn some coping skills surrounding my HIV status and all. Definitely was the healthiest thing for me.

• 35:07Lewis Howes?

  How did you stay focused when you thought like, I'm gonna die in two years? Does any of this even matter? Training, the Olympics? How did you stay positive and focused when seemingly the worst thing that could happen happened?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  When you're in that zone, flow, whatever you want to call it, I like to refer to it slipping into that space between air and time. You know, that nothing else exists. It's just that moment in time. So, and it could be joyful because it was something that was familiar and it was, I'd experienced this before. And so it was very inviting. That's like with the visualization work and imagery work that I do as well, that, I mean, I love to play with my imagination.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  And in my imagination, these other things don't exist. So the only thing that exists is right here now, in that moment.

• 36:18Lewis Howes?

  How did you handle the emotions of your heart? Of like seeing, I don't know, whether you got the phone call or the, you open the letter and it says HIV positive. How did, what did your heart do? I mean, did you feel like exploding? Was it like? And how do you cope or process that? To not just go down this destructive path?

• 36:41Speaker 01

  I think it's almost impossible not to go there. You know, that destructive path.

• 36:46Lewis Howes?

  So you did go there for a while?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, for, for a little bit. Yeah, for a bit. But fortunately, my cousin came over to my, where I was living.

• 36:56Lewis Howes?

  It's your doctor too?

• 36:57Speaker 01

  It was my doctor. And he delivered the news. And then at least I had somebody to talk to. And so we talked and talked and talked. And it's like, okay, you know, well, I had this certain idea in my head. And he shattered that.

• 37:13Lewis Howes?

  What did he say? There's certain drugs you can live with, there's?

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Well, the only drug that we had at that time was AZT and you had to qualify for it. And so my T cell count, I think, was 214 and you had to be under 200 T cells to qualify for it. But I think the next test that I did, it was under 200. So, you know, I qualified.

• 37:36Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  But I met with Anthony Fauci at the CDC. He was great, very supportive. I had a very small group of people who knew about my HIV status because we were learning. You know, we were learning as we were going. So any of the medications that I was being prescribed, we had to make sure that my doctor, my cousin, he would call the Olympic Training Center to make sure that none of the medications were on the banned substance list. Obviously AZT, they're looking for performance enhancing drugs and AZT is not a performance enhancing drug. Quite the opposite.

• 38:16Lewis Howes?

  It's hurting you, yeah.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's quite toxic. And so, yeah, so it was, it was interesting.

• 38:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Who was the most influential person within the year after you learned about having HIV in your life that supported you? That like you couldn't have got through without this person.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  I'd probably have to say that there were three individuals. I didn't want to tell my parents. So they didn't know until years later.

• 38:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow, really?

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Because I didn't want to, I didn't want to worry my mom. I figured if I were to get sick, then, then I could tell her. So she wouldn't have to stress over it. But the, the three people who were really key in my, my ability to stay positive was my coach, Ron O'Brien. Dear friend of mine, Debbie Shahn, she's an attorney. But she's, she was like my big sister.

• 39:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  She's Dr. Sammy Lee's niece. And then Kathy Shahn, uh, her sister. Who was a doctor. So a lawyer and a doctor uncovered, right?

• 39:33Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  But, um, but they actually took me into their home.

• 39:37Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  When I was going through some tough times, trying to leave an abusive relationship.

• 39:42Lewis Howes?

  Right. Yeah, I read about that.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  So they were, uh, they were there for me and opened their doors to me. Kind of got me on my feet.

• 39:51Lewis Howes?

  And was it this, let me know if I'm not supposed to talk about these things, but was this, was this relationship, this abusive relationship, how you got the AIDS, HIV?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  You know what? A lot of people want, I mean, even my dad, when he was alive, you know, he wanted to blame Jim. But

• 40:11Speaker 01

  honestly, I believe that I was probably, um, infected prior to Jim.

• 40:17Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  I think we both came into the relationship positive.

• 40:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  I don't know, because I wasn't tested at that time.

• 40:24Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  But my previous.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Partner before Jim, he passed.

• 40:31Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Complications with AIDS.

• 40:32Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  And so, you know, my suspicions, I think that a lot of us that were exposed, were exposed before we obviously before we knew about safe sex or anything like that.

• 40:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  And I remember doing an interview with Larry King, he's like, how does a smart guy like you get HIV? He was like, oh, I don't understand the question. You know, because I didn't, because we knew about safe sex after.

• 41:00Lewis Howes?

  After having, yeah, yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thought I was, I was in, I'm a serial monogamist.

• 41:07Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  You know, so it's like, when I'm with somebody, that's it.

• 41:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  And so, I figured I was probably safe.

• 41:16Lewis Howes?

  Is what it is.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Life happens.

• 41:17Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:19Lewis Howes?

  So can you educate me on AIDS right now, HIV? Because everyone was dying, I guess, within a couple of years. But now there's certain drugs and medications you can take to extend life very long, or what's?

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Generally, even if you circumvent, you can look forward to a pretty normal life expectancy.

• 41:41Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  People are you know, dying of old age, you know, heart disease and arthritis and, you know, I mean, they're having issues with, that come with old age.

• 41:54Lewis Howes?

  Other challenges.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:55Lewis Howes?

  But they're, you're having a long life.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, they, they've found how to attack the virus in various ways.

• 42:04Lewis Howes?

  Without attacking the rest of your body?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Oh, there's still some, I mean, it's really hard, the medications are hard on your liver.

• 42:13Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 42:13Speaker 01

  So I do acupuncture and Chinese herbs to support, for liver support and immune systems.

• 42:19Lewis Howes?

  You look great, you look young, you look vibrant, you look healthy.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Can you believe I'm almost 60?

• 42:24Lewis Howes?

  Crazy, you look amazing.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 42:26Lewis Howes?

  I hope.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Next year, I'm gonna be 60.

• 42:27Lewis Howes?

  I hope I look this healthy at 60. You look fit, you're joyful, you're full of love. I feel like. So you've been living with this for thirty years, is that right?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:39Lewis Howes?

  Thirty plus years?

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Thirty one.

• 42:41Lewis Howes?

  And so you have to take a medication daily, is that the essentially?

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, the drug regimen that I'm on now, it's in the morning and the evening.

• 42:49Lewis Howes?

  Got it.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  My HIV meds, I have, let's see, three, three meds in the morning, three meds in the evening. But I do a lot of supplements, Chinese herbs and.

• 43:03Lewis Howes?

  Like that helps a lot too?

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's more of a holistic approach. And also, like I said, a lot of the medications that they're metabolized in the liver. So it's really hard on the liver. So you need that liver support.

• 43:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  So my, actually, I learn more from my Chinese herbalist and acupuncturist than I do my regular doctor.

• 43:26Lewis Howes?

  That's funny.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  You know, he's like up on, you know, where I'm at. He even called me the other, yesterday to go over my labs.

• 43:35Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  So.

• 43:37Lewis Howes?

  What is the biggest challenge you feel like you've faced your entire life?

• 43:42Speaker 01

  The biggest challenge I've ever faced in my life?

• 43:46Lewis Howes?

  Your whole life. Would you say that was like one of the biggest challenges you've faced? Or was there something else you've been through?

• 43:54Speaker 01

  The biggest challenge?

• 43:59Speaker 01

  That's a hard one because once you get through that door, it's no longer a challenge.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, when I was diagnosed with HIV, you would think, hmm, that's. But once you go get through that door.

• 44:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Then you realize everything's okay. Losing my father, taking care of him the last six weeks of his life. I mean, that, that goodbye, that was a challenge because we had come so far because we didn't always have the best relationships. And then we made peace with each other in those last, actually that last year. Because he was diagnosed with cancer and I came out to him about my HIV status. And so it became a crusade for life and quality of life. We had many conversations about that. Losing my mother, that was tremendous loss.

• 44:57Lewis Howes?

  How did that make you feel?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  It was.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  I think in some ways it's harder now than it was then.

• 45:05Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Because when you're going through it, you're in the heat of it, then you're taking care of everybody else. And not always taking care of yourself. I think it's...

• 45:20Speaker 01

  I mean, I still talk to her, write her letters, you know, to this day, and she passed in 04.

• 45:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  So, she had a tremendous impact on me.

• 45:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  So...

• 45:33Lewis Howes?

  What's the thing you love about her the most?

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Her laugh.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  I think, I think that's what I miss the most. Is her laugh. You know, because, um...

• 45:51Speaker 01

  You know, she was genuine, she was real with me. And not afraid to... I mean, we had this connection, it was really bizarre. It was like, you know, when I was way at college, it was like, okay, I gotta call mom. And then I call mom and it's like, oh, and she's... Something was going on. And actually, it was the, um... She was on the verge of asking for a divorce. So, or actually, my dad asked for the divorce, and then she was... She said, "Okay." I think, I think he was expecting her to like, "No, I didn't."

• 46:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  So, and she said, "Okay." So that was kind of turmoil for her, and I just sensed it. I was just like, you know, it's like I called her and said, "Well, I knew there was some reason why I called." So, yeah, we just had that, that psychic connection. It was amazing.

• 46:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Of all the accomplishments you've had, from sports to activism, to theater and movies and other things you've done, what's the thing you're most proud of?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  I think the thing that I'm...

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Probably most proud of, I mean, there's so many things. I mean, I reached out to Ryan White. When the People Magazine article came out about this young boy who was a hemophiliac who contracted the HIV virus back in eighty-seven, I think it was. He experienced a lot of hate. Because, you know, any hate or anger or anything like that stems from fear, from a place of fear. So I reached out to him and his mom and invited him to a national championships in Indianapolis. And I felt like if people saw that I wasn't afraid of him, then, you know, maybe they wouldn't be so afraid. So, I mean, there's those types of things.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Oh, probably, I've said this in the past, is my book, Breaking the Surface. Because when I was on book tour, I had numerous people come to me and say, "You saved my life." And whether it was about surrounding HIV, or their sexual identity, or an abusive relationship, or, you know, whatever it was, or being bullied. Because when I was, the book was being published, my feeling before I went on book tour was I was sharing my weaknesses. You know, it's not very manly or masculine to admit that you were raped, or that you

• 48:33Speaker 01

  were in an abusive relationship, or that you were gay, or that you have HIV. Or, you know, so I felt like I was, or suffer from depression. Right. So, I felt like I was sharing my weaknesses. But when I was on book tour, I realized by sharing my weaknesses, I was actually sharing my strength. Because not everybody can do that. It's challenging. Yeah. And so, but I find that...

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Being able to let go of that stuff, that judgment and all, and living your life, living your own truth. I mean, it's a daily challenge, but it's, you're more apt to embody that truth, that you can move through life with integrity. You know, that you do what you say and say what you do. And be true to it. It's so hard for other, for people to do that. But it's, but the first person that you really, like the first, when you're coming out, the first person you have to come out to is yourself. You know, the first person that you have to be honest with

• 49:48Speaker 01

  and brutally honest with is yourself. So, once you accept that truth, then you can, you don't have to apologize for anything. You can just be. Yeah. Wow. Was it hard coming out to yourself? Yeah. How old were you when you came to yourself first? Well, I mean, I think I knew that there was, I didn't put sexuality to it. I think I knew when I was really young. Like six, five, six, seven? Five, probably. You know, I think I knew that something was different. I didn't put sexuality to it. It wasn't until later and then, you know, you're going through puberty and,

• 50:33Speaker 01

  you know, junior high and all the guys are talking about all these conquests. And it's like, oh. You're like, do you care at all? Yeah. Okay, is that? And then later on, you find out they weren't doing anything. Right, right. And then I realized I was doing it. It's like, I was doing everything that they were talking about. I thought that's what they were doing. Sure, sure. So, it's weird. Yeah, also giving up the, you know, the idea of needing validation.

• 51:08Lewis Howes?

  For what? Validation.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  For anything.

• 51:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that you're good enough. It was funny, because I was doing a dive camp in Arizona. And we had a bunch of little kids. And I told them, you know, be, do something kind for Mother Earth, anybody. You know, but, and not look for any recognition. You know, do it, don't tell anybody. You know, just do it for your own inner peace and validation to yourself. And so, I said, even if it's picking up a piece of trash, or complimenting somebody, or, you know, being supportive,

• 51:54Speaker 01

  just being there, an ear, you know, listen.

• 51:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  You don't, you don't have to speak. And so, you know, we were at a lunch break. We was just finishing up our lunch break. And, you know, I'm going around and I'm picking up trash. One of the mothers of one of the kids said, "Oh, my God, you really do do that stuff, don't you?" I was like, "Yeah." I mean, that's what, why wouldn't I be? I mean, because ultimately, we have to be examples. I mean, I learn by example. I mean, I'm, I'm also sober. So I've been sober, what, 12, 13 years, coming up to 13 years. My sponsor is, I never told him he was my sponsor.

• 52:39Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  For years. Because I learned by example.

• 52:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  And what he would say in his classes and share, and his journey, flaws and all, that's where I learned.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  That he lives it.

• 53:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  And that's what I want to do too.

• 53:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, be the example.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:12Lewis Howes?

  When you're teaching about visualization with these, at these dive camps, or any other athletes you're training one-on-one, how do you translate what you learned and experienced visually with imagery? Because I believe in visualization. I did it for many years.

• 53:29Lewis Howes?

  How do you translate teaching that emotion, that feeling to get in flow? What do you tell people?

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Well, the first thing with visualization, and I learned through trial and error, because I learned visualization when I was three.

• 53:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  You know, and that was, I'm sure by accident, my dance instructor said, "Okay, visualize yourself." No, no, she didn't say visualize. She said, "Okay, imagine yourself doing the routine." And she played the music, left the room. I was only three years old, so I was like, "Okay." You know, that's how I interpreted it. And so that's how I learned visualization. And then later on, I learned relaxation exercises when I was going through puberty. It was like, you know, I was suffering from anxiety and stress-related stuff. I also had asthma. What I learned in teaching visualization to dog agility people,

• 54:27Speaker 01

  ballroom dancers, water pole players, divers, I had to start with relaxation. I had to teach them the relaxation exercises.

• 54:36Lewis Howes?

  Breathe, relax.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, take them through the relaxation exercises. Then they would be, have a better opportunity for success in their visualization work. The one thing when I start somebody with visualization work is that I start with something totally away from whatever activity they're wanting to visualize.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  So.

• 55:03Lewis Howes?

  Like what?

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Well, I have several. I have several kind of fun exercises. I think.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Let's see, there's a roller coaster ride, there's a horse, riding a horse. Those two, because, okay, it's a wild, wild

• 55:20Lewis Howes?

  Exciting, it's, yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Roller coaster ride, and I try and get them to use all of their senses. What are they feeling, what are they smelling, what are they hearing?

• 55:27Lewis Howes?

  Hearing, yeah.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  You know, what do they taste? You know, because when that adrenaline starts amping up, then, you know, you get dry mouth, condom

• 55:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  And so those, the horse ride and the roller coaster really taps into the adrenaline.

• 55:42Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  The one that I really enjoy, especially with kids, is I tell them, "Okay, you're gonna bake some cookies."

• 55:50Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  And it's like, "Okay, pick somebody that you wanna bake cookies with." You know, whether it's your mom, your best friend, your aunt, your uncle, whomever, pick whoever it is. So there's an emotional connection to that person. And then I go through the measuring of the sugar and the flour and the texture of the butter and the smell of the extract, you know, whether it be vanilla or almond or whatever it is. So they go through all of their senses, the sense of smell, taste, and all of that stuff. And I try and encourage them to use all of their senses, because you never know what's gonna come out to the forefront.

• 56:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  As far as their strength. And so, you know, and that's, that's how I teach visualization, that it's totally removed from what the activity is. Because, that's important, because if it goes wrong in the activity that they're wanting

• 56:51Lewis Howes?

  It's gonna go wrong in real life.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, then it, then it has a tendency of going wrong in real, real life.

• 56:57Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So you have them practice something, other activity first?

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:00Lewis Howes?

  You have them relax, breathe, go through another activity of visualization, then you take them to the dive or to the sport after that?

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Not necessarily, no. I mean, I, I let them hang out there. And then it's, it's almost like, you know, you, they're muscles.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  You know, that you're flexing and

• 57:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  You using to utilize. So the more that you flex those muscles and the more fun that you can have in doing it, the more likely you are to practice and do it.

• 57:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  So then you play along, play along, play along. It's like, oh, you know, let's try this. You know, they, they come to the conclusion on their own usually that, okay, I'm ready for this. And then their visualization kind of steps right into place.

• 57:43Lewis Howes?

  That's powerful.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:45Lewis Howes?

  I've never heard someone talk about visualizing another activity first.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:48Lewis Howes?

  To heighten your senses and then step into yours when you're ready.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:52Lewis Howes?

  So I liked that. That's a great, I'm gonna start doing that.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:54Lewis Howes?

  Even when you were talking about making the cookies, I was visualizing, pouring like measuring the sugar.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Okay, what kind of cookies?

• 58:03Lewis Howes?

  They were chocolate chip.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Chocolate chip?

• 58:04Lewis Howes?

  Chocolate chip for me. I mean, that's why I was

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Chocolate chip or peanut butter?

• 58:07Lewis Howes?

  Snickerdoodle. I was smelling this. And then you said the vanilla extract or the almond. And I was thinking of like the mixture of both the vanilla smell and the almond taste. And I was like feeling it. You just, you're barely even doing it. I was just like processing it with my mom and seeing them rise in the oven and taking them out and biting this gooey and burning the top of my mouth.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:30Lewis Howes?

  Ah, and waiting, you know, all this stuff. It's like

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:33Lewis Howes?

  I can, I could literally smell vanilla.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:35Lewis Howes?

  When you said it. It was like, I could taste the sugar and the chocolate melting in my mouth.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  It's funny cause like every time I've, I've done that with kids especially.

• 58:45Lewis Howes?

  They love the cookies.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  It's like, oh my God, I gotta go to the subway and get a cookie.

• 58:49Lewis Howes?

  I know, right? It's so soft, the subway. Oh my gosh.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  So.

• 58:52Lewis Howes?

  I got a couple of final questions for you. This one's called the, the three truths. So I ask everyone this question at the end. So I want you to imagine it's your last day many years from now on earth.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 59:04Lewis Howes?

  But you've got to pick the day eventually and you've got to leave, right? Eventually it's, you know, it could be a hundred years from now. And you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish. From your whole life, from now until when that day happens, you've lived the life you want.

• 59:19Lewis Howes?

  And for whatever reason, you've gotta, you've gotta go. It's your time to go. And you've gotta take all of your accomplishments, your medals, your books, your movies. They've all gotta go with you, the things you've created. So no one has access to your content anymore. But you get to write down on a piece of paper and a pen, the three things you know to be true about life. The three biggest lessons you've learned. Or what I like to say, your three truths that you would share with the world.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  My three truths?

• 59:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, what would be your three truths?

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Nothing really matters except now.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Life is a game, play it.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  I have to say, validation is redundant.

• 1:00:03Lewis Howes?

  What does that mean?

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  You don't need to be validated.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  I mean, if you are true to yourself and

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  authentic.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  You know, there's no apology, there's just who you are. It's just who you are. So it needs no... Obviously, you know, because I'm very much about love. You know, it's gotta come from a loving place.

• 1:00:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  You know, it's gotta be embodied in love.

• 1:00:38Lewis Howes?

  When do you feel the most loved?

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Uh, when do I feel the most loved? Sometimes at events with kids, when I do some, you know, workshops and I've done some camps there and definitely with my dogs.

• 1:00:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  My dogs-

• 1:00:56Lewis Howes?

  Dogs just bring you so much joy-

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Lewis Howes?

  -to your life.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  They give you un- that's true unconditional love. And they don't know anything else. So it's either unconditional love or fear. Because in any of the, um, any aggression or anything like that, it stems from fear.

• 1:01:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  I also train dogs.

• 1:01:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  It's, uh, very much aware and in tune with, um, you know, reading those signs of stress and fear and... So I just want my dogs to be-

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  Feel loved and safe.

• 1:01:41Lewis Howes?

  How do you create that feeling for dogs or humans?

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Through games.

• 1:01:45Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:47Lewis Howes?

  Games for dogs makes them feel safe?

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Lewis Howes?

  What type of games? Playing fetch or some other?

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  I mean, the one thing that I'm going through right now is trying to build confidence in in one of the dogs that I have. And so I'm teaching her tricks. So that's always fun. It's fun for me and fun for her.

• 1:02:09Lewis Howes?

  When she learns a new trick, she feels more confident.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because it gets her mind thinking and not worrying. It's like, oh, my God, you know, there's a boogeyman around the corner or something like that. So that's one thing that that I learned in competing in dog agility is that I would always teach my dog, you know, some really solid tricks that they can do at the start line. So it kind of gets them off focused of the dog agility and kind of it's okay. You know, I can do this trick. I can play around. It's all about fun.

• 1:02:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow, it's kind of like visualization of another activity for a dog for the activity itself.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:50Lewis Howes?

  It's like roll over, play dead. Okay, now let's go do this competition. That's cool. You're truly translating what you learned in sports with dogs. That's great.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Well, that was one of the things that I, you know, years ago, when I first started with Ron O'Brien, that was one of the first things that I told him. I said, you know, I do better when I'm having fun, when I'm smiling and having fun. So you have permission to kick me in the ass if I'm not. And actually, at the world championships that year, seventy eight, he did come up at my practice because the weather was miserable. It was in Berlin. It was rainy. It was cloudy. It was cold. I'm a fair weather diver. I love the sun and it was just miserable. And so I was just like having horrible workout after horrible workout. And then he came up while I was under the shower, you know, in the shower, trying to

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  get warm and he kicked me in the ass and walks away and I look and it's like I see the back of his head. I was like, oh, my God, it's come to, you know, physical abuse. And then at this facility, they had an elevator. So I'm in the elevator going up to the ten meter and it's like. I told him he could kick me in the ass.

• 1:04:01Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  I'm not having fun. And so I started laughing. And then I, you know, got my skull face on, you know, it was like, looked down and said, okay, watch this. And I did my front three and a half and I nailed it.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  He goes, well, that's more like it. And it's like, so it forced me to turn, turn a corner.

• 1:04:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  And it was, it was a great lesson.

• 1:04:24Lewis Howes?

  That's why I think your truth about life as a game play, I think if we're not playing in our daily lives, we're not being playful, if we're not having fun, if we're not expressing joy, it's so much more serious. And as you know, as an athlete, you can't get into flow.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:04:39Lewis Howes?

  Without having fun.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:41Lewis Howes?

  Without being relaxed.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Lewis Howes?

  Without being playful.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that was when I hit my head on the diving board. Everybody likes to bring this up. That's all they remember, me hitting my head on the diving board. But I did come back and win. So I can't be the agony of defeat.

• 1:04:55Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  But that was the one thing, if you look at the clip on the very next dive, I set the board, they announced the dive, you could hear an audible gasp from the audience from where I was standing. So it kind of told me that they were afraid for me. And I was afraid for me, too.

• 1:05:16Lewis Howes?

  Before you went into the.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Before I went to, after that, the next dive, after hitting my head, because it was in the same direction. And so I took a deep breath and I pounded, pat in my chest, you know, because like my, I felt like my heart was pounding outside my chest. And then the people around who saw that chuckled. They go, oh, my God, he's afraid too. You know, we're afraid for him. And so I started laughing. I was like, oh, my God, you know, these people, they're in my corner. It's like, oh, you know, so.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  If you're a, and J.K. Rowling's got this right in Prisoner of Azkaban. The Bogart. What's a Bogart? It's a shapeshifter that turns into your greatest fear. How do you transform a Bogart? The spell is ridiculous. Make it look really ridiculous. How do you banish a Bogart? You laugh at it. And that's, and the Bogart is fear.

• 1:06:17Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. I love this. Good stuff. One final question, but before I do. You've got a movie you're working on? There's a movie that's coming out soon. Can you talk about it?

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a biopic. We're working with a production company in London.

• 1:06:33Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  So, yeah, we're trying to get that. You're, we're so close, yeah, to getting it.

• 1:06:39Lewis Howes?

  Is it already finished, or is it?

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:06:42Lewis Howes?

  You're working on it right now?

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we're, we're looking to get it made.

• 1:06:47Lewis Howes?

  Amazing. So you're looking to get that made right now. What else do you have working on that, that we can support with?

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  luganus.com, you know, you can keep up with what I'm doing. I've got.

• 1:06:57Lewis Howes?

  Your books are there, everything's there.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, books there, movie's there. I'm also the sports director for Red Bull Cliff Diving World Series, so we've got.

• 1:07:07Lewis Howes?

  That sounds cool.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  The season's gonna be starting shortly, so really looking forward to that. Also looking to, through, I'm pretty sure it's gonna be through my website, but an online coaching.

• 1:07:20Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow, really?

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 1:07:22Lewis Howes?

  Like a diving coach, or like a mental training, or like a?

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  It's what I mental.

• 1:07:27Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Whether it's the relaxation visualization, or to be able to achieve your goals. I mean, it was so funny, because like one of our divers, Cassidy Krug, I gave this breathing exercise when I, when I did the TV show Splash. I gave that breathing exercise. And then she pipes in, I didn't think she was listening. She said, "Yeah, you gave that exercise to us." And she said, "That was the only way I was able to get through the finals at the Olympic Games in London, was using that, that exercise." So, you know, yeah, you know, to be able to achieve. What you don't believe and hear that you can achieve.

• 1:08:10Lewis Howes?

  Wow, amazing. So that's all gonna be at luganis.com, right? The coaching and everything else, okay? I want to acknowledge you for a moment for your incredible joy that you bring to the world because you've been through so many different challenges. You've been through what people would think are like some of the worst challenges to go through. Things that they would hate to have happen to them. And you've gone through them with grace and peace and love. I'm assuming not all the time, but it looks like you've really processed everything that's gone through in your life in such a peaceful, loving way. And you've used the energy to be one of the best athletes ever,

• 1:08:51Lewis Howes?

  to, you know, pursue your dreams, to help humanity. And for me, that's so inspiring. And you're an amazing symbol of love and joy. And I want to acknowledge you for all the gifts that you have in the world. My final question for you is, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  My definition of greatness?

• 1:09:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Thinking, acting, and being beyond yourself.

• 1:09:16Lewis Howes?

  There you go. Greg, thank you so much.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  Does that make sense?

• 1:09:20Lewis Howes?

  It's a great definition.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:21Lewis Howes?

  Perfect.

• 1:09:24Lewis Howes?

  You're the man. Thank you very much.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:09:27Lewis Howes?

  Thank you.

• 1:09:31Lewis Howes?

  There you have it, my friends. The Greatness Community is taking the world over. We have so many people who are listening to this episode and to these episodes every single week. Learning, growing together, connecting. There's a community online of people who are supporting one another. And I want you to get a part of this and subscribe to the podcast right now. If this is your first time here, welcome to the community. Welcome to the movement of people who are dedicated and committed to growth in their personal lives. That's what this is all about. How can we find more fulfillment, more meaning, more purpose in our life with everything we do?

• 1:10:10Lewis Howes?

  With our health, our relationships, our career, our business, and our purpose in life. That's what we're all about. This is episode number 767 with Greg Luganis. Make sure to share this with your friends. You can just send them the link, lewishouse.com/767. Text it to a friend. Message them on social media. Let them know you're thinking about them and you think this might support their journey in life or inspire them in some way. To bring it back to the beginning, Christopher Reeve said, "A hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles." And John Quincy Adams said, "Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before

• 1:10:55Lewis Howes?

  which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish." You are a hero. You are someone who can overcome ordinary challenges every single day to create extraordinary results. It's all about the consistency of showing up. You don't have to be perfect. You just have to continue to show up each and every day and try to be a little bit better than the day before. You are loved, you matter, and your dreams matter. And I hope you enjoy this episode. And as always, thank you so much for being here. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.