Warner and Discovery Split Yet Again, ‘Dept. Q,’ and Alan Siegel on the Golden Era of ‘The Simpsons’

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Warner Bros. and Discovery will once again be splitting into two different entities (7:12). They also discuss the trailer for Noah Hawley’s ‘Alien: Earth’ series (11:43). Then, they talk about the rest of ‘Dept. Q’ and how this show could be Netflix’s ‘Slow Horses’ if they wanted it to be (21:19), before Chris is joined by Alan Siegel to talk about his new book ‘Stupid TV, Be More Funny: How the Golden Era of The Simpsons Changed’ (36:37). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Alan Siegel Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production and Editing: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Ryan?

  This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Forget your wallet? It's all good because with Apple Pay, you can pay with the simple tap of your iPhone, the wallet you never forget, at millions of places worldwide, including websites, apps, and anywhere you see the contactless symbol. Security is built in with Face ID, so you don't have to worry about your cards getting lost or stolen. And the best part, you still earn the card rewards, points, and cash back you love. So say goodbye to the billfold, add your card to Apple Wallet, and start paying the Apple way. Terms apply.

• 0:37Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Rye, and I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me on the other line, my Scottish friend. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 0:50Andy Greenwald?

  Am I your Scottish friend?

• 0:51Chris Ryan?

  Well, you do the best Scottish accent.

• 0:53Andy Greenwald?

  It's quite kind. That's quite kind of you. Should I do the whole boat that way? I think it'd be great.

• 0:59Chris Ryan?

  Can you just do the Scottish accent? Now I can go elsewhere.

• 1:02Andy Greenwald?

  Sure. That's great.

• 1:04Chris Ryan?

  Greenwald, we are virtual today, but that doesn't mean we're not super close when it comes to monitoring Hollywood, the output of the television industry, the comings and goings of various, you know, mega corps being split into two. So today, we're going to talk a little bit about this Warner Brothers discovery story to the extent that you and I, with our mass fortunes, understand it. And then a little bit about Alien Earth, which is the FX show coming in August from Noah Hawley about, guess what, Alien? And then we're going to wrap up Department Q. At the end of this episode, I chatted with Alan Siegel, who's got a new book about The Simpsons coming this week that I hope everybody goes and checks out.

• 1:46Chris Ryan?

  I can't wait to talk to Alan about The Simpsons.

• 1:50Andy Greenwald?

  Can I check in with you about one thing before we get into our full slate?

• 1:54Chris Ryan?

  Sure, man.

• 1:56Andy Greenwald?

  So last week, when we were podcasting, as we often do, you asked me, as you know, in the role of not just your co-host, but as your friend, if it was time for you to start buying Phillies Red October merch.

• 2:10Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 2:10Andy Greenwald?

  In anticipation of a, another wire-to-wire first place in the NL East run, and obviously a deep, a deep run into the postseason. I just wanted to note for our listeners who maybe aren't, what's the word, insane Philadelphia sports heads, that the Phillies have not won, I don't think, since you asked me that. And not only have they not won, Bryce Harper can no longer move his hand in a baseball-related manner, and Jesus Luzardo can't not give up hits and runs. So I just want to give you a chance to speak to the people about this.

• 2:45Chris Ryan?

  Um, fortune favors the brave, you know what I mean?

• 2:48Andy Greenwald?

  The Braves.

• 2:49Chris Ryan?

  And the Braves and the Mets. I hear you, I hear you and I see you.

• 2:54Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 2:55Chris Ryan?

  And I'm listening and I'm thinking, I understand that that was not actually me sending out a battle cry that the Phillies were going to be returning to the playoffs. I was thinking of a get-rich-quick scheme where I could go and buy a bunch of merch for Red October, because I don't think the Phillies are going to change their postseason slogan anytime soon. They've really hit on something. And so if you buy all the Red October stuff in June, and then you're the Red October guy, and people have to come to you, do you know what I mean?

• 3:28Andy Greenwald?

  This is also, by the way, this is also part of your sort of galaxy-brain attempt to really muddy the waters about your personal wealth, because now you're running some sort of like selling shirts outside the stadium.

• 3:40Chris Ryan?

  Dropshipping Phillies postseason merch company.

• 3:41Andy Greenwald?

  Just trying to skirt tariff stuff?

• 3:43Chris Ryan?

  I'm sorry for starting an American business.

• 3:48Andy Greenwald?

  You're not the problem. Okay, that is impressive because just otherwise it was giving me really big driving you back to college from Thanksgiving and you commenting on the traffic situation on I-95 energy.

• 4:01Chris Ryan?

  What did I do to deserve all my friends being fucking superstitious freaks? If you say there's not a lot of traffic right now, that's not why traffic shows up.

• 4:11Andy Greenwald?

  No, but what it does is recalibrate the anxious brain into a position of like unexpected peace and calm because I, for whatever reason, trust you a great deal. I do find you to be a calming presence in my life. So when you're like, yeah, it looks pretty good. We'll have time to get at least two Cinnabons and then we just drive straight into a brick wall of traffic.

• 4:31Chris Ryan?

  This is the scene from the opening of Final Destination 2 has taken place.

• 4:37Andy Greenwald?

  Regretfully. Yes. And okay, so that was that. The other thing, the other bit of housekeeping I wanted to get to is that I am, I just wanted to let the people know that I am currently engaged in a Kristin Kish-like come from behind, roar to the finish race to catch up with the current season of Top Chef. So we will be talking about it. I have a lot of thoughts.

• 4:59Chris Ryan?

  FanDuel stopped taking bets on this.

• 5:01Andy Greenwald?

  I know, shocked, right?

• 5:03Chris Ryan?

  I honestly can't believe it. And to some extent, I'm kind of like, I admire your bravery and I appreciate your effort, but I think if you had told me, Chris, I'm going to give you 11 hours of television watching, I don't know if I would have dedicated it to Top Chef this season.

• 5:19Andy Greenwald?

  I am not going to disrespect you or our listeners by pretending that this has occurred during what normally people would call television watching time. I would say the realization that there is a Peacock app on my phone has allowed me to fill heretofore unfilled moments of my day with quick fires.

• 5:41Chris Ryan?

  And would you say that those, those heretofore, like those moments that you ordinarily didn't watch television largely, is that where the fathering is taking place? Is that where the parental supervision is taking place?

• 5:55Andy Greenwald?

  Again, I don't want to confirm or deny anything. You know, I generally like to be a private person, keep my kids out of the podcast. I did say, I have to go brush my teeth, guys. And then my older daughter was like, is that acclaimed molecular gastronomist Wiley Dufresne's voice that I hear?

• 6:13Andy Greenwald?

  What's funny is you're not sure if I'm kidding about my kid knowing why we do Frank is or not.

• 6:18Chris Ryan?

  I also just like the idea of you going to brush your teeth and your children only hearing like, oh, god damn it, the risotto is not setting.

• 6:29Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I also sometimes exclaim things, you know, in what might be known as private moments. So, yeah, I was way out. I wasn't just out, I was offended, you know, by the first few episodes. And I'm glad I've come back because you can't quit some, I mean, I've seen every episode of the series, like not, no joke, I've not skipped one. So to suddenly go cold turkey didn't feel good. And I have some, I have some thoughts and feelings. So I will, I will be caught up for the finale, which the final finale, part two, I believe airs this Thursday. So I guess next week we'll be able to talk about it in full.

• 7:05Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Okay. So here's the two things I wanted to talk about. I think we can keep these pretty tight. Warner Brothers Discovery has split into two companies as of today.

• 7:16Andy Greenwald?

  Well, they've announced their intention to, right?

• 7:18Chris Ryan?

  Their intention to do so. Very, very well played. David Zaslove will be overseeing essentially streaming and studios, which is for our purposes HBO, Warner Brothers Films, the streaming components of the Warner Brothers empire. And then your boy Gunner, the CFO, is taking over, I think he's starting a new company, quote unquote, that's I think called Global Networks, which is dope that people just can't think of new names for companies. So they call it stuff like that.

• 7:50Andy Greenwald?

  My guess is it'll have a market tested name like, I don't know, tram or something by the time it's done.

• 7:56Chris Ryan?

  ACN. That is the dying corpse of cable networks that we've got on our hands, but is still actually a moneymaker. I love this part of modern life where like, something is a totally viable business, but it's not sexy enough. So it's just like a tumor living on the side of a company. And can you tell I still pay for cable? Andy, do you have any? To the extent that you're able, like, observations about this split.

• 8:29Andy Greenwald?

  I'd like to begin by doing something I'd love to do, which is attempting to reference a movie that I haven't seen in 30 years, but you probably have. Isn't it in Cliffhanger? Isn't there a movie where someone's like, you know, like, trying to do something and they're bound together, but one person's like, you have to cut me loose? I feel like that's a trope.

• 8:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:46Andy Greenwald?

  That's kind of where we're at with a lot of these companies. And as much as, yeah, I think you've, you've set up, you've set the table well, which is, we actually don't understand a lot of this stuff. We are not financial quants, but we did see this movie before recently with Comcast Universal, which.

• 9:01Chris Ryan?

  And apparently with Cliffhanger.

• 9:03Andy Greenwald?

  And apparently, but that wasn't recently, though.

• 9:07Andy Greenwald?

  Wasn't, wasn't, wasn't your gal from, from Northern Exposure, the female lead of Cliffhanger?

• 9:10Chris Ryan?

  Jane Turner, man. Put some respect on her name.

• 9:13Andy Greenwald?

  I just, I just didn't want to, I, you know, I assume that she has some chat GPT bots scouring podcasts for references to her, so I didn't want her.

• 9:21Chris Ryan?

  She's got her own podcast. She has a Northern Exposure recap pod.

• 9:25Andy Greenwald?

  With Rob Moore.

• 9:25Chris Ryan?

  Really? Yeah. I think, yeah.

• 9:29Andy Greenwald?

  Just, just, I'm never going to Google anything you tell me on this podcast. I just, your paintings, it's like, it's like I-95 all over again. You're just painting me a more beautiful picture of the world. Anyway.

• 9:41Andy Greenwald?

  We saw this recently with, with Comcast NBC Universal, where they have spun off, um, basically the, the less profitable, or at least the, the, the businesses that they feel have less room to grow in order to unshackle the company from the, the heavy weight that they are, that they are putting to bear on it. In that case, I think the new company is called Versant.

• 10:04Andy Greenwald?

  Which I thought was a hair product, but I was informed recently that's wrong.

• 10:07Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 10:07Andy Greenwald?

  So I, this, it's a similar story here, and I think we kind of predicted it, or at least the, the trades predicted it, when Max became HBO Max again, in order to prioritize again, like, the value brand in the equation.

• 10:21Andy Greenwald?

  Underneath all of this is the fact that when David Zaslove, who is head of the Discovery Networks, purchased Warner Brothers, he did so basically with debt. So the company has tens of billions of dollars of debt weighing down its ledger, no matter. What it does, no matter how successful it is in any one of its areas. The thought being this is a way to kind of split the debt, shed the dead weight and some of the dead debt. And see what's actually possible with the studios, which, you know, again, the, the whole industry infrastructure is in flux. But there's success there. The question is, can you, can you do this?

• 10:59Andy Greenwald?

  And that, and then do a dramatic move like this and thus allow yourself to recontextualize what success means for the newly slimmed down company.

• 11:08Chris Ryan?

  I, I wish I had observations as, as cute as yours. I just got distracted in my own brain thinking about what would happen if I, if I spun off my holdings from the watch. And what would happen if we had like a split, who's gunner, who's zaz in this, you know, question? Who gets streaming? Who gets cable? I think I'd probably get cable. I spend more time on it.

• 11:27Andy Greenwald?

  I think, you know, savvy listeners understand that stick the landing was a trial balloon for our inevitable rupture. And, you know, I think we're still, we're still pouring through the data we got from that. You know, there's, there's some promising signs.

• 11:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:40Andy Greenwald?

  There's some promising signs, but we're not ready to commit.

• 11:43Chris Ryan?

  Speaking of promising signs, let's talk a little bit about the Alien Earth trailer. Because as, as you may know, I think I've, I've said this publicly many times, Alien is my favorite franchise. I think top to bottom, um, I have time for every single movie in the franchise. I'm pretty fascinated by the like, I'm, I'll be completely honest as a 47 year old man. I'm pretty into Wayland Yutani. I'm pretty into the lore. I'm pretty into the mythology. So, um, I'm up and down with some of Noah Hawley's TV stuff. I've obviously loved Fargo. Or loved seasons of Fargo, some I find just good, which is still an accomplishment. But I was very interested to see what his take on this, this world was going to be.

• 12:26Chris Ryan?

  Because on one hand, I think there were things that I could see him glomming onto. And then there were some things that I was wondering whether or not he would kind of be like, that's for the movies or that's, I don't want to do chestbursters. I don't want to do, uh, aliens on people's faces or jumping out of walls. At least that's what I figured. What we know about this series is that it's set two years before the first Alien film, and that it is set on Earth, as is, you might have been, as indicated by the title. The first teaser came out a couple of months ago, I think, but the trailer dropped last week, I believe, for over the weekend. And I was very surprised, and not in a bad way, but this is a much more action-forward trailer than I expected. And I

• 13:11Chris Ryan?

  think it's very wise of them to sell this show that way. Because if you had asked me

• 13:17Chris Ryan?

  a couple of months ago, like, what do you think is going to kind of be the vibe of this show? I would have gotten into all of the sort of more philosophical questions about humanity versus, you know, robots, or humanity versus, I suppose, AIs, or whatever you want to say, but there's always been a component of synthetic humans, droids, in these movies. That's obviously a huge part of the show, but they, they really put forward a lot more of the traditional, like, Alien is here to scare the shit out of you, and to be like, an incredible piece of sci-fi action. So what did you think of the trailer? And were you surprised by the vibe at all?

• 13:58Andy Greenwald?

  I definitely will talk about the, the subject, or the trailer itself, because I thought it was really, really promising. But what you're talking about is really interesting, I think, as well, which is how much the industry has changed since the last time Noah dabbled in large company IP waters. That was 10 years ago. That was with a show called Legion that I had the pleasure of working on. And what I can say about that time was, what interested Noah, what compelled Noah to work on it, was the elasticity and possibility of the idea, specifically, the idea of someone who might be the most powerful person in the world, or he might be insane.

• 14:40Andy Greenwald?

  What he had very little interest in, at least in terms of what he brought to the writers' room, I mean, he may be fascinated in his spare time, or he may have been thinking big picture, what other things he might want to do. I don't want to speak for him. But in my experience in the room for season one for that show, we never once said the words X-Men.

• 14:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:56Andy Greenwald?

  We never once talked about the larger overstory of beloved IP. We never talked about how this show would or wouldn't intersect with what was then the Fox X-Men universe. Laura Schuler-Donner was the EP on the show. She did come into the room once or twice, but the mandate really did seem to be FX can have a slice of the pie and then just wrap it in, in plastic, take it far away from the restaurant and do whatever they want with it. And this is what, and so it was more a Noah show than it was a X-Men show, or it was more an FX show. Things have changed.

• 15:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Andy Greenwald?

  Dramatically, particularly in terms of the, just the inescapable value that these enormous IP franchises hold for these companies that, that happen to have them. So, all of that said-

• 15:45Chris Ryan?

  Dude, that's such a good way of looking at it. I hadn't even thought about it like that.

• 15:47Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I'm not at all surprised that FX needs a huge blockbuster Alien show as much as Alien needs an autourish spin on it. So, again, not privy to any conversations, have, have not spoken to Noah about this or anything in quite some time. So, I'm not saying he's doing something he's not interested in. I am saying that the, the stars definitely aligned for everyone to be like, go big, go do this. Don't just carve off your sort of prestige little slice of it and, and play with it alone in the dark. Make the biggest, biggest story you can.

• 16:23Chris Ryan?

  I'll read you the log line, somewhat abbreviated by me, from FX. "In the year 2120, the Earth is governed by five corporations. In this corporate era, cyborgs and synthetics exist alongside humans. But the game has changed when the Wunderkind founder of, and CEO of Prodigy Corporation unlocks a new technological advancement: hybrids, humanoid robots infused with a human consciousness. The first hybrid prototype, named Wendy, marks a new dawn in the race for immortality." Mortality, very much the primary concern of the two Ridley Scott sequels of Prometheus and Covenant, or especially Prometheus. After Waylon Yutani's spaceship collides into Prodigy City, Wendy and the other hybrids encounter mysterious life forms more terrifying

• 17:07Chris Ryan?

  than anyone could have imagined. Wendy is played by Sidney Chandler, who is Kyle Chandler's daughter. Just thought I'd mention that. And then also, this show's co-stars Alex Lothar, who we adore from Andor, and Timothy Olyphant, who's one of my favorite actors. So-

• 17:24Andy Greenwald?

  Have you been thinking about Nemec's manifesto a lot recently?

• 17:27Chris Ryan?

  I have.

• 17:30Chris Ryan?

  I think-

• 17:31Andy Greenwald?

  Also, by the way, that's David Rizdal, I believe, who made a good impression in the last season of Fargo as the boy genius, the boy tech genius.

• 17:38Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, I can see, it's not surprising to me that Holly is fascinated by the lines between a synthetic humanoid, or android, a human, and the sort of, the sort of like fluidity of those beings and of those ideas. That makes a lot of sense. The idea of these humanoids all being basically the first line of defense against an alien incursion into Earth that is governed by corporations is an incredible blending of the first two films, because obviously, the second movie, the James Cameron one, is more or less like a marine war story. And the first one is very much like these people

• 18:21Chris Ryan?

  who are getting ground into dust as, you know, workers for this huge corporation. So, very, very smart setup here.

• 18:29Andy Greenwald?

  Here's why I'm feeling bullish about it, not just because the trailer is pretty inarguably sick. We should definitely have a drinking game for our listeners, where if we say Trojan Horse, you get to do a shot.

• 18:44Andy Greenwald?

  Not this early in the morning. For everything I said, we don't know when people are listening. For everything I just said about this, you know, being a big juicy mainstream swing, it seems as if Noah has identified things that are really compelling to him within the larger alien structure. You mentioned them, like, the idea of the corporations being at war with each other feels relevant, obviously, and compelling. The sort of first hybrid people sounds really exciting and not a new idea, but maybe a more original idea for this franchise that you can then play with as the spine of your show while aliens come crashing out of test tubes.

• 19:29Andy Greenwald?

  Also, the other part of the trailer suggests that there's multiple aliens, not just the famous chestbursters and H.R. Geiger-inspired slobbery killers. Yeah, these are OGs. These are some of the early versions, yeah. The other reason why I'd be bullish, not just the cast, like Timothy Olyphant and Lothar, like you mentioned, this show famously filmed in Thailand and was able to continue filming through a lot of the strike, I think, because of the location and because a lot of the actors hired, I guess the major exception of Olyphant and maybe Rizdal are not, were not SAG actors, they were British actors, but they filmed in Thailand. And I like the fact that in the trailer, you can kind of see it.

• 20:11Andy Greenwald?

  It does not look like the show is filmed in the four places that productions tend to film these days. I find that really exciting. And then ultimately, I think the reason to be bullish about it is if we're going all the way back to Noah's really surprised coming out party with Fargo, I think we've take for granted how challenging of a lift that was. Yeah. There was a lot of skepticism about that. Rightfully so, and including skepticism from the Coen brothers. But it is a remarkably, it is a testament to a very remarkable skill that I think that he has had and has, that he can kind of take in all of the strands that make something popular and run them through his brain and kind of figure out what to take, what to

• 20:55Andy Greenwald?

  keep, what to change, and how to re-knit them, basically. Yeah. That first season of Fargo felt of a piece with the film, but it wasn't completely beholden to it in a way that allowed it to flourish on its own. So. If he was eager to reengage with that part of his brain, then he probably is the right person to make this show.

• 21:17Chris Ryan?

  Uh, let's get into Department Q. How about that?

• 21:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 21:22Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so this is gonna be spoilers for the conclusion concluding episodes. We talked a little bit broadly about Department Q last week and our love for it. We're gonna try and have Scott on again sometime soon, maybe next week to talk about the show. But I wanted to get broadly like your thoughts on the second half of the season. So we'll be doing spoilers for the end of this season. So anybody who hasn't gotten a chance to finish Department Q, save this, move on to the Alan interview, what have you. But Greenwald, what did you think about the way that this show kind of concluded?

• 21:53Andy Greenwald?

  I'm gonna need your help parsing some of this. I stand by every single thing I said last week, which is, I love this show. I love watching this show. I love the performances. I love the production design, the aesthetic, the location, the vibe, the world. I want to spend more time with these people and hopefully we'll get a chance to spend more time with these people. I mean, the show is set up for prolonged success if possible. Some of that might be dependent on Scott Frank's desire to do more of it, but there are, I believe, 10 books in the series, not unlike Slow Horses. So there's more room, there's more road ahead. And the series definitely ends with a big blinking to be continued implication. Doesn't actually say that. All of that said, it got a bit silly at times,

• 22:36Andy Greenwald?

  didn't it? I don't know why I became English instead of Scottish. And I, and I know. Well, Matthew Good is doing his best. That's a bit odd, isn't it? Should I do that? It's not quite what I thought it was gonna be. I, so the, this story was dependent on the novel that it was based on. And as the second half of the, of the season went on, I started to feel the very evident weight of a story that is told in a very particular way in a book that we should say we have not read. But it is, it told in a particular way that is very challenging to do on the screen. Because as we move through the season,

• 23:21Andy Greenwald?

  More and more of the present day story became dependent on the past and the past specifically of Merritt Lingard's past, her childhood, the people she knew in her childhood, the roles they played in her childhood. And I think Scott is, you know, we don't need to glaze him further, but like one of the great screenwriters of our time and certainly a pro, a prose pro at figuring out ways to adapt types of story. That said, it at times felt almost Herculean to be like, well, now we're going to show these characters as children, they're going to be, or then as teenagers, they're going to be played by different actors and we're going to linger the camera a little bit longer on a character we've never really met in person's

• 24:03Andy Greenwald?

  brother, because that brother is going to become enormously important later. That sets you up kind of behind the eight ball when the present day world of the story is so fucking good. Like, let's just, let's just ride around the coast with Carl and Akram, just figuring shit out and throwing knives.

• 24:23Chris Ryan?

  Do you know how hard it is, or how rare it is to put together an ensemble where you are just as happy to spend time with the fourth and fifth characters hanging out together, like Rose and Hardy?

• 24:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 24:35Chris Ryan?

  When Rose goes to visit Hardy in the, in the hospital room and in his hospital room and they're just kind of going through old news stories?

• 24:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 24:45Chris Ryan?

  That happened in Edinburgh way around the time of Merritt Lingard's disappearance. That's, that's very rare to me, you know, like I usually am like, hey, number one on the call sheet, I want to be with Mayor of Easttown through every scene of Mayor of Easttown. This is a situation where I was like, if Rose and Hardy want to have like, just their own adventure that involves them sitting around talking about crimes that happened four years ago, I'm totally fine with it. But I completely get what you're saying. Yes. You, you are asked midway through the show or through this season to all of a sudden be like, the entire, the entire thing is propped up by this, this tragic event that happened between two families on an island off of Edinburgh like a long time ago.

• 25:29Andy Greenwald?

  Now, I think there's two ways to look at this. One way to look at it is to pick up on what you're saying, which is, oh, my God, what a infrequent miracle we have here with just an absolute banger of a cast and a setup in a world. And mysteries are often, like, if you, as, as readers of crime fiction, you and I know that, like, you read the series because you like the, the writing, the world and the detective, and you're willing to accept that there's a variance of quality of plot across a series of five, 10, sometimes 30 books. You just kind of devour them and you enjoy them for the reasons you enjoy them. TV can often function the same way. I think a second season with a different storyline and a different, um, a different crime, maybe one ultimately more compelling than Merritt Lingard, because I think as the season started to pay

• 26:14Andy Greenwald?

  more and more attention to her time in the hyperbaric chamber and her past and since, like, I was, I, I became increasingly particular, particularly in the last two to three episodes, just less interested in that. But there's a version of this where, you know, the story of the second book is so awesome that this show just elevates even further from what is already a pretty high launching place. The challenge, I think-

• 26:35Chris Ryan?

  Well, you also wouldn't have the first couple of episodes of Carl being a jerk to everyone, not wanting any help.

• 26:42Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 26:43Chris Ryan?

  You know what I mean?

• 26:43Andy Greenwald?

  Not accepting the team.

• 26:44Chris Ryan?

  It takes about four episodes for him to kind of come around to Akram and Rose and start relying on Hardy a little bit more and yada, yada. So it's like, you know, I, I completely think the second season could be lean and mean.

• 26:56Andy Greenwald?

  I, I think the challenge, though, is something that we've been talking about. I think it's interesting, actually, I hope the listeners do. I think it's interesting that we've been talking about this more and more, which is the challenge is the way modern TV gets made. This show is on Netflix now. As far as we know, and maybe Scott would have breaking news for us when he comes on the podcast, it has not officially been renewed. Does he want to do more of this? If you listen to him on Marc Maron, which I really recommend our listeners do, he's basically like, I, I fought doing this for a while because I had other stuff on my plate and even went so far as to collaborate with a bunch of people before kind of, it seems like, nudging them aside and grabbing the wheel. So, does he want to do it again? And if he does, what's the timeframe? If they green light it today, then the show is coming back in 2027?

• 27:41Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know what I mean? So it doesn't mean I wouldn't be excited to see it. I just feel like there's a lot more variables for something that just, it feels like a miracle, but it's, it's only a miracle in the modern day.

• 27:52Chris Ryan?

  I wonder whether or not this is something that they could do. You know, they did nine episodes of this. I think that there is a lot of, could this be, I don't know, Netflix does not need a Slow Horses, but if they wanted one, they got it.

• 28:06Andy Greenwald?

  This should be it. I couldn't agree with you more. Like, I would, if there were nine more episodes of this show up this week, I would revise my statement about finishing Top Chef. Like, I would watch more of it.

• 28:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 28:17Andy Greenwald?

  And I feel a little churlish, leading with my kind of slightly off-kilter feeling about the back half of the season. I love the show.

• 28:24Chris Ryan?

  You touch on a really good point, which is this, the things that, like, if you're reading a detective novel, let's say Raymond Chandler is a really good example, often in Raymond Chandler novels, the reader themselves is like, I do not know what is going on. Even as everything is being explained to me at the end of the book, I still don't really know what's going on. There is conspiracy after conspiracy laid on top of each other, new characters get introduced.

• 28:52Andy Greenwald?

  Coincidence on top of coincidence, to be honest.

• 28:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and like, you can feel the fixes where it's like, actually, it was his war buddy who he'd always hidden from view, you know, like, there's always like this sort of late-breaking silver bullet that kind of answers everything. You don't read Raymond Chandler for plot, although some do. You read it for atmosphere, dialogue, worldview, morality, like, you read it for the broader ideas at play. And I thought that the way that Department Q dealt with some pretty gnarly subject matter

• 29:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 29:31Chris Ryan?

  and wound up being my feel-good show of the year.

• 29:34Andy Greenwald?

  I know.

• 29:36Chris Ryan?

  Because I was like, fathers and sons and stepsons can like find common ground.

• 29:41Andy Greenwald?

  And lodgers, too.

• 29:41Chris Ryan?

  And it's cool to date your therapist. And like, let's just all be a team.

• 29:46Andy Greenwald?

  What are our boundaries, really?

• 29:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And, yeah, I just felt like this, this thing, it made me even more excited for the future as much as I enjoyed this season. I agree with you. I probably don't ever need to see anything ever sent in a hyperbaric chamber again.

• 30:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it just got tough. I mean, I think that there is a, that struck me as a very interior storyline of, and again, we could be wrong, like, the book could be told completely in the third person without, you know, omniscience of what Merritt is thinking, and it somehow got by anyway. Okay, we don't know. So we're speaking out of our asses here. But it struck me as a very, very interior storyline. And it also, because of that, meaning that it's happening inside of Merritt's head while she's enduring this torture.

• 30:33Chris Ryan?

  And she's trying to figure out, she's going through cases and being like, what did I do? What did I do?

• 30:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. And I think, again, Scott did some creative work to make it come alive. I mean, the aspect ratio of the hyperbaric chambers was different than the rest of the show. There's a hallucinatory element to the pressure building. You know, ghosts appear, images appear, people are taunting her, talking to her within it. All of that, very creative aesthetic work was done to kind of support something that felt, on screen, less weighty than the rest of the show. You know, it had me being like, it took her four years to think of like, the inciting incident of her adult life? Okay. Also, by the way, the other side

• 31:19Andy Greenwald?

  of that, maybe it's just a testament to the hardiness of the Scots people, but three months after being freed from four years of captivity, she's like, I think I'll go sort myself out for a while. Maybe go up to the coast. Some beautiful locks. Drink a diamond brew.

• 31:38Chris Ryan?

  Maybe that was just like, her experiences with like, air pressures changed her fundamentally. And she's like, now I, now I feel like I'm a, I'm a well-balanced person.

• 31:46Andy Greenwald?

  Like, three months after a bumpy flight, I'm still not myself again.

• 31:49Chris Ryan?

  Do you ever get back on a ferry, if you're Merritt?

• 31:52Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, do you think, I don't know if you ever go scuba diving again.

• 31:58Andy Greenwald?

  Don't blame the fairy. I mean, unless, do you think Moira lent her the copter? To get back to Morn?

• 32:03Chris Ryan?

  A couple of the hanging threads I just wanted to mention because these could come up in future seasons, but I'm also quite interested in them. There is still some ambiguity, I guess, around Carl's shooting.

• 32:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it's nice that, I feel like I cavalierly said last week, oh, it'll all be one story. I'm glad that it was not.

• 32:19Chris Ryan?

  I know, I was wrong too. I thought there would be a lot more unity in the two mysteries. Two is Moira's burgeoning arachnophobia, which I thought was great.

• 32:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and also the other element of that was the implication with Moira and with Stephen Burns, that they are not altogether clean, but nor are they villains. That there is something, they're more, they're more pages to turn.

• 32:43Chris Ryan?

  Which is very, very Slow Horses. That's like-

• 32:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and I like that.

• 32:46Chris Ryan?

  Scott Thomas in Slow Horses, who's like, I'm your friend to some extent, but I'm ultimately looking out for myself.

• 32:50Andy Greenwald?

  It's also good TV fodder because there's somewhere to go with the characters. No, no one got taken off the board.

• 32:56Chris Ryan?

  I also feel like Graham Finch looms.

• 32:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. Oh, right, of course.

• 33:01Chris Ryan?

  As a, as a big bad that could come, you know, could be like Morn's adversary.

• 33:05Andy Greenwald?

  Do you want to speak at all to the etiquette of entering a private golf club and throwing clubs out of the window? Like, did that?

• 33:15Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I don't know if you know this about me, I'm largely a municipal golf course guy. So, sorry, I'm not, um, you know, I'm not tucking the shirt in, I'm not, not, not participating in those institutions.

• 33:26Andy Greenwald?

  Just a man of the people out here, going to municipal courts, selling off-brand fanatics outside of Citizens Bank Park.

• 33:33Chris Ryan?

  Guys, I don't have any used balls to sell you, but I would like to sell you this used Bryce Harper.

• 33:37Andy Greenwald?

  I, I promise you, this, this square of AstroTurf was once trod upon by Juan Samwell. I promise.

• 33:44Chris Ryan?

  Andy, I'm gonna jump into this conversation with Alan Siegel, um, about his, uh, his Simpsons book, but do you have any, any, like, you're showing The Simpsons to your kids.

• 33:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I'm sorry I can't join. I just did one, just last statement I want to make.

• 33:56Chris Ryan?

  Akram.

• 33:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, just Akram, like now on the Mount Rushmore of side characters currently on television. Like, just an exceptional marriage of performance, writing, style, vibe, and hand-to-hand combat.

• 34:11Chris Ryan?

  And jujitsu, yeah.

• 34:12Andy Greenwald?

  God, great character. Okay, yes, my kids, this is, I'm sorry I can't join, Alan's book looks awesome. I am curious, maybe you can ask me about this. Watching, I have three takeaways for you, quick. Showing Simpsons to my children, awesome experience. Still, you know, those first five, six seasons that I watched in real time, like, still some of the most formative and funny comedy of my life. And it's nice to see that they love them also and get them. Second thing is, did not realize until re-watching them, how much of that comedy was written by baby boomers, basically, making fun of their childhood. And so I have to do things like explain Mayberry to them, you know, just like things that

• 34:54Andy Greenwald?

  are predate us, that we didn't, that maybe we got because there was more of a monoculture then. And then the third thing is, my younger daughter likes The Simpsons so much, she will sometimes on the iPad just investigate season 34 and say, oh, it's, it's pretty funny, and then showed me one.

• 35:11Chris Ryan?

  So when your daughter's like, I'm gonna go brush my teeth, and then she's just watching season 34?

• 35:15Andy Greenwald?

  I hear Kent Brockman reading the news. She showed me the Simpsons White Lotus parody, and I gotta say, and I've heard tell that there's some, like, younger writers working on it, it might be funny again, the new episodes have not met the bar for me. So I'm curious how he feels about that.

• 35:30Chris Ryan?

  That's a classic AG, kind of, let me leave you with a little bit of sour taste.

• 35:34Andy Greenwald?

  A little spice.

• 35:36Chris Ryan?

  Simpsons, are we sure it's good? I'm out.

• 35:39Andy Greenwald?

  It's the opposite of Cesar on the current season of Top Chef, who over-sugars everything.

• 35:43Chris Ryan?

  Is this, Alan, are you jumping in live right now? Oh, my god.

• 35:48Andy Greenwald?

  This is terrible. We're doing a handoff. I want to talk to Alan about The Simpsons, but I gotta go.

• 35:57Chris Ryan?

  Alan, can you hear us?

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Yes, I can.

• 35:59Chris Ryan?

  Okay, Andy's gotta go, but he was just telling me he was, he was having, uh, his daughter has been getting into late period Simpsons.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Oh, nice. By the way, for a second there, I was like, fuck, did I come in in the middle?

• 36:11Chris Ryan?

  No, no, no, don't worry about it.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Losing my mind. Um, I, my best friend has like a 12 year old and he was disconcerted by the fact that like a late era Simpsons episode is just as good to him as like one from 1992.

• 36:24Chris Ryan?

  Interesting. This is not Greenwald State.

• 36:26Andy Greenwald?

  He's gotta do my style, which is I sit her down and I say, here's why this isn't very good.

• 36:31Chris Ryan?

  Andy, I'll see you later, man.

• 36:32Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I do on this podcast too. Bye, everyone.

• 36:37Chris Ryan?

  Okay, Alan Siegel, joining me on the watch. Andy has left. We have his book here, Stupid TV, Be More Funny, uh, How the Golden Era of the Simpsons Changed Television in America Forever. Alan, what a delightful book, man. I hope people pick it up. It's out this week. Um, I have a question for you off the top.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 36:57Chris Ryan?

  When I have thought before, perhaps, uh, self-indulgently about like whether I would ever write a book about like a movie or, or something, a single thing, you know, like a a series or a film, I'm like, man, do I have enough in the tank to write about one thing? But one thing that jumped out at me was that when you're writing about the Simpsons, you're actually writing about the entertainment industry, American culture, the way trends worked in their country, in our country, both in the 90s and now. And it's like, were you able to just write about everything but by writing about the Simpsons?

• 37:30Speaker 02

  Pretty much. You know, I, I had tried to sell a Simpsons book years ago and I just couldn't quite get the idea right. And I think what did it was tying it to the 90s because it's such a tidy narrative. So you start in 89 when the show premieres and you go through the end of the 90s and It's kind of like those two things, The Simpsons in the 90s are inextricable. Like you, you can't really tell the story of one without the other.

• 37:53Chris Ryan?

  You and I had a pretty much mirror image experiences with this show. I think I'm a little older than you, but like the same experience of this show coming on. I think I even do remember it from Tracy Ullman, although I, I can't be certain. So it starts out as a series of shorts on, well, obviously it starts out as, as the comic strip. It was in LA Weekly was it, was the origins of it?

• 38:19Speaker 02

  So Matt Groening did Life in Hell, which definitely had elements of The Simpsons.

• 38:24Chris Ryan?

  Right. Bones of The Simpsons.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Bones of The Simpsons. And, you know, the idea was that they were going to turn that into a show, but Groening was kind of smart and was like, no, I want to own the, the rights to those characters. So the legend goes that he just like scribbled a bunch of little people onto a napkin.

• 38:39Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  And he was like, yep, these are, these are the new characters for your show and let's turn it into something. And kind of, it is kind of funny. Like you, you think of these like creative moments, like they're going to be this, these grand gestures of creativity. But it's really just like, you know, almost random.

• 38:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Just like a kind of like quick toss off thing. And I do remember though, as The Simpsons sort of started to come out and then especially after, I mean, when would you say the show really takes flight? Like after a season or two, like what, what year is, do we get into like prime Simpsons?

• 39:13Speaker 02

  I would say, so the, the first season is good. It's just like a little rudimentary. And then I would say like midway through the second season is when it really starts to flourish.

• 39:23Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And it, as it's flourishing, it is bringing with it a new network on television called the Fox News, the Fox, not Fox News, just Fox. It was run by Barry Diller. It was started by Rupert Murdoch, obviously. Went through very many iterations over the course of the following decades. But at the beginning, it was like this kind of rebel television network because Reagan had deregulated the television industry. And it was the first network to launch, I believe you say, since ABC in the 40s. Is that correct?

• 39:54Speaker 02

  That's correct. Yeah.

• 39:55Chris Ryan?

  Okay. So I'm basically, I don't want to step on every single one of the things I want to talk to you about, but I'm basically trying to paint a picture of, you're young, I'm young, we're in school, this new network starts. I don't necessarily remember thinking much about that part as, but it was like a new channel to turn to. And the programming was not like the programming on other TV networks. And I know it's not like that now either, but the comedies, especially on Sunday night that they programmed were kind of edgy and kind of provocative. And I hadn't really seen stuff like that. So like whether you were responding to Married with Children, which obviously had a much more

• 40:38Chris Ryan?

  like sexually provocative edge to it, or things that were kind of inventive like Tracy Ullman or like Herman's Head, and then especially in Living Color. There was kind of like, I was like 11 or 12, but it felt like a weird, like I was at, we were at the vanguard of something new. Did you have that sense? I know you were younger, but like as you were going back and researching, did you get that feeling that this was something like really fresh in the TV landscape?

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think what Fox had the benefit of was they could try shit. Like they weren't a normal network and they weren't in fear of advertisers. So they went out there and did like, I remember I was into In Living Color before Saturday Night Live. I think it's just because I was young, like.

• 41:24Chris Ryan?

  I think, I think I might've been too.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  I couldn't, I remember like watching the premiere of Michael Jackson's Black or White on, on Fox one night and it was just, it was a different time. I mean, the, the rival networks called it like the coat hanger network because they used to, used to need, the joke was you needed like a coat hanger as an antenna to get it in. But again, that really gave the Simpsons sort of carte blanche to do whatever they wanted.

• 41:48Chris Ryan?

  There is an idea that you talk about early on in your book. It's a quote from one of the writers. I can't remember which one, which is the television is basically the act of giving people what they want. But if you give them something they didn't know they want or didn't know they needed, they will follow you forever. And The Simpsons has obviously proved that to be true. It's incredibly long run. This is an idea that I think has kind of been lost in a lot of modern entertainment. It's very risky, obviously, to take just a huge swing. But over and over again, I think over the course of our cultural consuming lives, it's been the thing like.

• 42:29Chris Ryan?

  Sinners, or Inception, or whatever it is that is like this breathtaking, original take on some really tried and true ideas that winds up really captivating a generation of people. And The Simpsons kind of did that. What do you think it was that The Simpsons was doing that was both old and new? If you can kind of, if that makes sense?

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Sure. So for old, I would say it really, like it played on the tropes of every traditional family sitcom from, you know, All in the Family to, you know, anything, anything from the early to mid-century television, you know?

• 43:09Chris Ryan?

  And a lot of these writers are obsessed with like 60s TV, right?

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:13Chris Ryan?

  Like they were watching Batman and they were watching, yeah.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Even, even sort of Brady Bunch, like, there's a story that I heard, just, you know, just an example of like what kind of guys these writers were, which is, you know, I asked like about the Harvard Lampoon and like what, what helped it sort of be influential to them to make them, make these writers good at writing TV? And they were like, yeah, like it wasn't high-minded. We'd sit around and watch the same Brady Bunch episode 12 times in a row and break down every trope and every little thing that worked, even when it wasn't funny. And I think so. So that's the old part. And the new part was sort of their-

• 43:49Chris Ryan?

  Are you saying that those guys invented the rewatchables?

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, back before they could sort of Google everything too. Like they couldn't do half-assed internet research back then. They were like watching reruns-

• 44:03Chris Ryan?

  To be fair, neither do we. We barely do.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  And, and the new part is sort of a product of their TV obsession. So every episode had, you know, 50 jokes, 50 different references, whether it's to, to pop culture, to Hitchcock, to Kubrick, to all these movies that we love. And they prided themselves in just making layer after layer after layer. And you see that in almost every sitcom now. Like, the best example to me is like 30 Rocket. It's basically a live-action Simpsons, which, and 30 Rock now is almost 20 years old. And I think Robert Karlock, who, you know, made the show with Tina Fey, said like, "I want to make a live-action Simpsons." And again, it created this archetype that- Is in every show now.

• 44:46Chris Ryan?

  You can see like there are elements of 30 Rock, like even the things that have sort of like, just like walking in, like even the writers room in 30 Rock of the guy with the mesh hat, like the different characters who are like perfectly drawn comic relief side characters, who will come in and do the exact thing they need to do is like, you can see all of that in The Simpsons with any number of their kind of like of the ensemble there.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's wild too, because again, they, these guys writing the show, they didn't have any idea they were sort of making this cultural blueprint for future. Like John Viator, writer, told a story about, you know, making Lenny and Carl, you know, Homer's friends, just like, it's like, yep, Homer needs friends. So we're just gonna like toss him in. And he said, like, it almost embarrasses him to think like, these are like iconic characters with action figures now. It's insane.

• 45:41Chris Ryan?

  Um, there's also this idea play that you get into early in the book. Uh, I'm about, about midway through it. I saw a lot of my references are going to come a little bit earlier, but I think it's useful for people who haven't read it yet of this idea that The Simpsons was about kids, but written for adults. And this is something that I think about a lot because in some ways I wonder whether or not like we'll look back on the last, like, I don't know, maybe 20 years or so and wonder whether like, you know, does pop culture infantilize people? Because you often hear that with talk about Marvel Cinematic Universe, or, you know, um, people listening to the same music at

• 46:24Chris Ryan?

  40 that they were listening to at 20 or whatever it is. And I think that I'm not even referring to like pop music. I think like even the fact that like, I keep listening to Pavement is like, have I, have I just decided to be perpetually 19? But The Simpsons was really interesting because you felt like, even though it was about like a boy who maybe looked like you or a girl who looked like you and your parents were maybe like Homer and margin somewhere or something like that. Or maybe you lived in a place like Springfield.

• 46:54Chris Ryan?

  All the jokes were like, I only kind of get this. Like you were like, I 50, I, I get the gag, but maybe not the reference. And that's an ingenious way to write comedy because then it, you are always like making new fans because people are like, oh, that's what that meant. 10 years later.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  So first of all, I'm wearing a dinosaur junior shirt, so I'm, I'm with you. But second of all, like it is sort of to use the music comparison. It's a little bit like when Nirvana hit in the early nineties and kids started to explore the band and learn what Kurt Cobain's influences were and go and love those bands too. And so The Simpsons is like that with pop culture. So here's an example that I love. I'm obsessed with in the Mr. Plow episode, there's a reference to William Friedkin's Sorcerer. And it's a movie from 1977 that in 1990.

• 47:45Chris Ryan?

  It's like one of my favorite movies.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  It's incredible. And in 1992, though, who was watching Sorcerer?

• 47:51Chris Ryan?

  I don't even know if Sorcerer was available in 1982.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Probably not available on VHS, or if it was, it was very obscure. And the crazy thing is I didn't get that reference until I was 39 years old. Like that's how much is buried in these episodes. You know, that's a really specific one, but again, like.

• 48:08Chris Ryan?

  No, that's a perfect example. Yeah.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  I didn't know the movie Psycho when I was seven, but you know, my dad explained, oh, that's a reference to this movie and it kind of gets you curious about other pop culture.

• 48:19Chris Ryan?

  Do you find yourself more often than not? Have you watched the entire series?

• 48:26Speaker 02

  I have watched, I think in its entirety, the first 15 seasons. And then as I got older, I kind of drifted away and then I'll drop in like there was a Boston themed episode and that's where I'm from. So it's like catnip for me and I watched some of the Treehouse of Horror ones because they're really creative still.

• 48:42Chris Ryan?

  You gotta honor traditions. Do you find yourself? Um, I mean, cause you know, like there's, there's so many Simpsons episodes. Like, is it almost like, oh, I'm getting into this season now, or this is an era where this writer took over. Like, you can kind of detect it in SNL, where you can go back and be like, oh, I'm gonna watch the Dana Carvey era, or I'm gonna watch when this person became head writer. Like, what is your relationship to rewatching The Simpsons?

• 49:08Speaker 02

  So when I was working on the book, I was really afraid I was gonna watch episodes and just start getting annoyed and not like the show, but it's been the opposite. I mean, like, I try to, like, be a little judicious with my rewatches, but I found myself, like, gravitating to the David Merkin years, which is, like, seasons five and six. And it's really when the show expanded its scope, like Homer goes to space, and there's a Citizen Kane parody, like, these really immersive, but, like, joke-packed episodes that were, like, a little faster-paced than the early seasons. And that's an example just of, like, how the show was evolving at the time.

• 49:47Chris Ryan?

  Andy and I often talk about authorship of TV shows, so, you know, sometimes I think we're a little over-reliant on it. Like, you know, oh, the showrunner or this, or this person is obviously the creative driving force behind it. One of the interesting things about The Simpsons is, obviously, it's based on the work of Graining. You've got the influence of James L. Brooks, who is one of the most, sort of, like, safest, most, kind of, competent pair of hands in Hollywood, and has made so many hilarious, but also touching dramas and comedies in the film business, but also has produced tons of incredible TV. Taxi Simpsons, did he, did he do Cheers?

• 50:31Speaker 02

  No, that-

• 50:32Chris Ryan?

  No, he was not on Cheers.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was not on Cheers. Mary Tyler Moore, too.

• 50:34Chris Ryan?

  Right, Mary Tyler Moore, sorry.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  No, you're fine.

• 50:37Chris Ryan?

  And then you've got, like, the murderers row of writers who came out of The Simpsons and went on to do other things, but the person who I was gravitating towards is Sam Simon, whose name I've seen in credits for my entire life, and realized when I started reading your book, I do not know a single thing about him, but it seems like I should.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  So he, the writers kept mentioning Sam Simon as being a genius, being a genius, being a genius, which I think he was. And I asked somebody like, what was it? And it was just like, he just made good TV. Like, he ran Taxi in his early twenties, which is crazy. And so the writers loved, like, pleasing him and getting things right for him. And I think, again, Simon was kind of cantankerous guy. Like, him ingraining didn't really get along. But what helped the show was that Simon basically was like, "Oh, we're gonna be 13 episodes and done. So like, let's try different stuff. Like, let's make every episode different than the last one." Which, I think for those young writers, was like, heaven, like, to be able to do that.

• 51:39Chris Ryan?

  But the whole point of sitcoms is that you create a framework and then you just pump them out, right? It's not like we strip it down and start with a completely new idea.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  Right. You hit them over the head with it over and over and over. And that's sort of what the Bart catchphrases were trying to do. And, yeah.

• 51:57Chris Ryan?

  Right. So Simon is like, kind of a wonderkin who comes out of like, you know, like, maybe not golden age of television, but clearly had some kind of like, deep understanding of how the mechanics of TV worked. And when people are talking about him in your book, I found it fascinating that he had this sort of, he was like a five-tool player. Like, he could do any kind of comedy. He could do physical gags, verbal gags, but he could also do story, and he could also do, like, episodic structure. So, I mean, so these guys all just revered him.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, things like, starting an episode with a cold open in an animated show. Like, that was, I mean, perhaps it had been done a little bit, but it was not done like, you know, The Simpsons, like, an episode starting with, like, a Flintstones theme song parody and Homer driving his car into a tree. Like, that was just something that they wanted to try. And also, like, I think an underrated thing, like, he was hilarious. Like, he would add notes to people's scripts in the margins that would, like, make them hysterical. Like, just tossed off things. Like, the one I love is, you know, I think it was Jeff Martin's script, and it's like, you know, Rod and Todd Flanders talking about how, you know, liver and onions was for dinner, and Sam Simon just wrote,

• 53:12Speaker 02

  "Iron helps us play." And that was, just threw that in there. And, you know, he also was... Responsible for like the look of Mr. Burns. Like Mr. Burns was supposed to look like Mr. Spacely from the Jetsons and Simon was just like, no, no, no. Like, let me see. And he, you know, he had some animation chops, just draws Mr. Burns like with a beak and iconic.

• 53:33Chris Ryan?

  That's amazing. Um, how much longer do you think, how long do you think The Simpsons will run for?

• 53:38Speaker 02

  Oh, man. I think they're gonna go, they could go for another 10 years. I mean, the actors are getting old and I don't, it is a little scary just with AI, like what they could do with those voices.

• 53:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's not like they don't have enough material to work from.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think when the show is canceled, it's gonna be the biggest send off in pop culture history. Like, I, I don't think people, it's just such an American institution now that I don't think people realize how to sort of revolutionary it was at its start.

• 54:11Chris Ryan?

  Do people, do you get, did you get any information or insight into like, is it, because it's streaming on Disney?

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Disney Plus.

• 54:18Chris Ryan?

  So do you get the impression that it's had like a second life or like of streaming boost?

• 54:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think Bill Oakley, one of the writers, said that there was a period, maybe, I don't know, 10 years ago, when FX sort of became the syndicated partner, you know, it's a Fox partner. And then there was a, there was a website called Simpsons World, which like feels very dated now, where, you know, you had to be a subscriber, you had to be a cable subscriber to watch The Simpsons.

• 54:46Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I remember that.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, and then when Disney Plus came around, it, like, I think it gained thousands or millions of fans because again, like, my, my best friend has, you know, an 11 year old and he can go on there and choose any episode. And that like opened the world for, for a new generation of, you know, preteens and kids getting, getting into it.

• 55:07Chris Ryan?

  Interesting. Well, Alan, man, thank you so much for joining me, dude. The, the book is called Stupid TV, Be More Funny. It's from Grand Central Publishing, uh, and it's available tomorrow, is that right?

• 55:17Speaker 02

  That's correct. June 10th.

• 55:19Chris Ryan?

  Um, good luck with, with the release and everything. And, um, Alan obviously has great pieces on The Ringer that you can find there under his byline. Alan, thanks so much for joining me.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Thanks so much, man.

• 55:31Chris Ryan?

  Thanks for listening, everybody. You can get Alan Siegel's book wherever you buy books. It's called Stupid TV: Be More Funny. Thanks to Andy for joining me. Thanks to John and Kaya for producing. We'll be back on Thursday, hopefully with a special guest, but we'll probably also chat about Stick, the new Apple TV show with Owen Wilson, and a couple of other things. Everybody have a safe week.