#299 - #1 DMT Scientist: BANNED Research, Biblical Prophecy & the CIA | Dr. Rick Strassman

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Rick Strassman is best known for pioneering DMT research in humans and proposing that DMT could be a biological gateway to mystical or alternate realities. Currently, Dr. Strassman serves as a Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. His new book, "My Altered States: A Doctor's Extraordinary Account of Trauma, Psychedelics, and Spiritual Growth," is available now. SPONSORS http://morning.ver.so/danny - Use code DANNY for 15% off your first order. https://hims.com/danny - Start your FREE online visit today. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off EPISODE LINKS https://x.com/rick_strassman https://www.rickstrassman.com FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Adverse effects of DMT 06:54 - Is DMT the source of human consciousness? 10:25 - Extended state DMT experiments 20:19 - DMT reveals a universal religion 29:08 - Psychedelic religion of mystical consciousness 35:10 - What Danny saw during DMT experiment 37:54 - Terrifying experience on 5-MeO DMT 41:39 - Melatonin & the pineal gland 52:43 - When DMT stops working 57:38 - DMT & NDE's 01:02:45 - Telepathic experiences on psychedelics 01:12:53 - Prophets of the bible 01:18:34 - The first anti-christ 01:31:42 - Drugs in antiquity 01:37:24 - CIA-funded LSD clinics w/ Charles Manson 01:40:13 - Rick's friendship with Joe Rogan 01:45:42 - Did ergot & psychedelics create religion? 01:53:12 - Government research on psychedelic soldiers 02:03:01 - Amphetamines & adderall 02:14:00 - Next species of humans will have telepathy 02:19:39 - John Mack's alien research vs. psychedelics 02:26:53 - Remembering previous lives 02:29:20 - Translating the book of Genesis 02:34:06 - DARPA research on buddhism Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  So hi Danny, nice to meet you.

• 0:08Danny Jones?

  Hi Rick, pleasure to meet you too as well. Before we started rolling, we were talking about the effects of DMT. I told you I was super afraid to try it again by myself.

• 0:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:17Danny Jones?

  And people I've spoken with that know more about this than I do, which isn't saying much, said that there's not really any, there's not any documented cases of people having any like real adverse effects of using DMT or overusing DMT.

• 0:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's not been my experience. Every once or twice a year, I get a note from a family member or a friend of somebody who has smoked way too much DMT.

• 0:50Speaker 00

  And they develop a certain kind of mental state. It's kind of messianic that they feel they have the answer. And if people don't agree with their answer, they get mad.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, so they're convinced, it's kind of messianic in nature.

• 1:09Danny Jones?

  Have you ever heard of anybody smoking DMT? And sort of like not coming back fully? Getting like stuck in like this weird slippery version of reality like forever? Cause I have friends that in high school that took a lot of LSD or smoked a lot of weed. And after a certain point, they were just never the same.

• 1:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's hard to say. I mean, personalities get modified, I think, under the influence, or can be modified under the influence of a psychedelic. You know, but it's more, I think that they made those changes more real in their lives. And that might be what people are referring to as they've changed. They maybe took more action on some of the ideas they had than otherwise would have been the case.

• 2:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  I think that's how psychedelics work actually, is they just increase.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  They increase the strength and power of things which already exist in the mind.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  If you want to be a happier person, you might become happier after taking a psychedelic because it's convinced you

• 2:26Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  that it's good to be happy.

• 2:29Danny Jones?

  So, um, you were the first person in the United States to do human research on psychedelics. You are probably like one of the most legendary people in the psychedelic world. And one of the things that really blew my mind was that you were explaining on, I think it was Hamilton's podcast? I could be wrong. I think it was Hamilton's podcast. You were explaining how you had the idea to get this funded when you were hanging out with Terrence McKenna, and you guys decided that it would be the best way to get it funded through the war on drugs.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 3:11Danny Jones?

  That's crazy.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was 1988, and I was kind of at a crossroads of where my career was going. The melatonin and pineal work hadn't quite panned out the way I wanted it to. But I was still interested in the pineal gland and in psychedelics mostly. Yeah, and I met Terrence a year or two before. He's the first person to give me DMT, actually.

• 3:35Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 3:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, 1986 or something.

• 3:38Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  And a couple of years later, I was driving down from Canada, stopped at their place, and we spent the day up in his loft library. Yeah, and, um, you know, we just, the war on, you know, the war on drugs was in full steam ahead. There was a lot of money being poured into it.

• 4:01Danny Jones?

  What a clever idea.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  And we came up with the idea of the ultimate study, give DMT to people and see what it does. You can't really, you can't really argue with that. And I describe it as a usable drug. It's the prototypical classic psychedelic. And people were still using psychedelics. And we didn't know how they worked or really what they did in the face of like 20 years of intervening animal research. So there are pretty straightforward kinds of arguments that could have been used against studying the drug or for studying the drug. I framed it as, let's find out more.

• 4:45Speaker 00

  And no value judgment placed on the work, no therapy or religious, you know, motivations.

• 4:54Danny Jones?

  What, what do you think DMT in a healthy dose does to the human brain? Not necessarily, I'm, I know it's speculative when you're talking about what it's doing to the brain when you're taking it, when it's active.

• 5:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:08Danny Jones?

  But like, oh, what, kind of like when it, when it subsides, like, what do you think the after effect is?

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Well, I think it works on the imagination.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  So if you can, you know, divide the mind into an intellectual part and an imaginative part, it's based on some of the ideas of Aristotle, that the imaginative part of the mind holds on to, you know, perceptions, emotions, the feelings of certainty. And the intellectual part is ideas, abstract notions. So I think that, you know, DMT ultimately stimulates the imagination as compared to stimulating the intellect. It makes things, you know, it, it appears, but what the appearance actually means is more dependent on the intellect.

• 6:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah. One of the things David Nichols was explaining to me was that there was a technical word he used to describe how it actually.

• 6:13Danny Jones?

  Increases neural density. And there's this term, the scientific term for these neural branches, like the branches on trees.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:20Danny Jones?

  That they grow and they become more connected and more full.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, he was probably talking about neurogenesis and neuroplasticity.

• 6:29Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:30Danny Jones?

  That's what it was.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, so stem cells converting to neurons is neurogenesis. You're making new neurons.

• 6:36Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  And neuroplasticity is increasing the number and complexity of connections among neurons.

• 6:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah, because every person I've ever talked to that does DMT, they're all super smart.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:48Danny Jones?

  I don't know what that is.

• 6:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, there are a lot of ways to try and figure out what DMT is and what it's doing. And also, I think, interesting to consider is why? You know, why is there DMT in our brains?

• 7:01Danny Jones?

  Well, it's not just in the brain, right? It's all throughout the body, isn't that true?

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Well, mostly it's been found most recently and most objectively in the brain.

• 7:10Danny Jones?

  Most, okay, so it's mostly in the brain, in the pineal gland or all throughout the brain?

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Uh, in the, in, you know, the cortices, the visual cortex, you know, parietal cortex. There's a number of, you know, cortices on the brain. And each is responsible for certain, you know, biological functions almost.

• 7:35Danny Jones?

  So do you think that, is the idea that DMT existing in the brain is sort of what's responsible for giving us our perception of the world? For the, which it animates the world around us, gives us this, this depth and color and

• 7:53Danny Jones?

  there's this, there's this other idea called the, which I think it was Andrew Galamore who explained this to me, the, the filter idea of the brain being a filter, where it filters out all this other stuff that could exist in reality to what, so we can perceive only what we need to survive.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, you know, it's really hard to say now what the role of naturally occurring DMT in the brain is, but you can consider it like a way it maintains consensus reality. You know, too much makes things get really like psychedelic and not enough might make things seem flat and boring.

• 8:30Danny Jones?

  Hmm, yeah, I want, I always wondered like, is the, is the DMT in there, is that breaking down some sort of filter in the brain, which is enabling us to see more or like temporarily making us see some like, like overloading the brain with information? And that's maybe explains this stuff that we're seeing or these things that we're experiencing or communicating with. And, you know, once it fades, fades away, maybe those filters are coming back into, into place.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Um, well, you know, there's a part of the brain called the reticular activating system, uh, which people have considered for a long time to be that filtering mechanism.

• 9:12Danny Jones?

  Reticular activating system?

• 9:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's in the, it's in the extremely primitive parts of the brain. Um, and, uh, many people have can have, you know, thought about psychedelics or the function of that part of the brain.

• 9:30Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Uh, as acting as a filter.

• 9:32Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  And psychedelics affect that part of the brain pretty robustly.

• 9:37Danny Jones?

  Now, is this where the third ventricle is?

• 9:42Speaker 00

  Um, that's probably, let's see.

• 9:46Danny Jones?

  The water of life is in the third ventricle.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, well, it's, it's the cerebral spinal fluid.

• 9:54Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, very interesting. Uh, the pineal gland is right in the middle there.

• 9:59Danny Jones?

  Okay, yeah, it's right, it's right dead in the center.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, the reticular activating system is up on the brain stem.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, so there are receptors in that part of the brain that psychedelics bind to.

• 10:17Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  And change the activity of the neurons there. Yes, that could be, you know, the filter.

• 10:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah. What do you make of these, um, these new experiments that are going on with the, what Andrew Galamore is doing? They're trying to put people on extended state intravenous DMT to see, to sort of map this DMT world?

• 10:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's the

• 10:42Danny Jones?

  Sounds wild.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. What's it? A continuous infusion.

• 10:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Of DMT.

• 10:46Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, I speak about that toward the end of the DMT book, The Spirit Molecule, that maybe we could keep people in that state for longer. Uh, an hour or two, you know, an extended period of time. You know, the problem is with smoking or giving one injection of DMT is it's over quite quickly. And a continuous infusion would allow you to be in that space longer.

• 11:10Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, so there's a couple of, um, you know, oh, and then a few years later, Andrew approached me and, you know, suggested that we write this paper, uh, which describes, you know, the basis anyway for a study like that.

• 11:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. And Imperial College in London is doing work and there's a group in Switzerland.

• 11:30Danny Jones?

  How, I, I can't imagine how that would look, right? You have somebody on IV DMT all day long.

• 11:36Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, you're laying there.

• 11:38Danny Jones?

  Hooked up to a crucifix.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Oh, well, you're laying in bed, but still.

• 11:42Danny Jones?

  Okay, right. Still, yeah, you got your arms out and your fillet open and, and like, what do you, do you have to pull them out to get the data? Like, pull them out, like, like briefly and say, tell me everything?

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Uh, I think they keep people in the state.

• 11:56Danny Jones?

  While they're talking to them and getting the data?

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Um, man. No, it's reported in retrospect. Well, you know, like you give DMT for a half hour at a pre-arranged infusion rate.

• 12:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the person comes down and you ask them to describe what it was like.

• 12:14Danny Jones?

  And then you throw them right back in.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  Well, you could go in and out like that. Um, I don't think anybody is doing that kind of work. I, I think that kind of work would be helpful for psychotherapy. Uh, you put people

• 12:28Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Uh, well, I think it would be useful. You can be in a state for a while, DMT state or. Very highly altered state for let's say a half hour. You come down and you talk with your therapist and you decide what to do next. You know, go deeper, go back lighter, you know, take some more time off. Yeah, you know, so I think that holds promise for therapeutic purposes too. Yeah, but I think you know, characterizing that landscape is also important. You know, like the beings, like, you know, how do you interact with the beings? Once you've gotten used to their presence and

• 13:07Danny Jones?

  Right, and what even are the beings? Like, cause you said that this all, all this stuff is amplification of what's already in your mind. So how do you explain people seeing aliens that are talking to them? People like Andrew Huberman, Dr. Rhonda Patrick, and even Joe Rogan have talked about a compound called Epikatakin that's found in dark chocolate and green tea. It's shown to improve blood flow, delivering more oxygen to the muscles and brain. Studies have shown that it reduces stress and fatigue while improving mood and enhancing muscle growth, strength and recovery. One study found it boosted muscle growth factors by nearly 50% in just a week. But don't reach for chocolate bars. Processing destroys these compounds and you need an impossible amount to get results.

• 13:51Danny Jones?

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• 14:33Danny Jones?

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• 15:08Speaker 00

  Well, I think the visions convey information and the brain uses what's in its.

• 15:17Danny Jones?

  Is it like, are you talking about like, like epigenetic information?

• 15:23Speaker 00

  Well, that's the question. Is it, is it information that's coming from us or from an external source?

• 15:30Danny Jones?

  Right, right. When, is it coming from us or is it coming from our ancient past? Which could also be

• 15:42Danny Jones?

  argued that's, that's kind of an external source because it's not really us now, maybe us in the past.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Well, I think us from the future.

• 15:50Danny Jones?

  Or in the future.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, kind of pulling us in a direction.

• 15:55Danny Jones?

  Have you seen the, um, the, uh, my buddy Danny Gohler was in here and he has this thing called the DMT laser experiment?

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 16:02Danny Jones?

  You've seen that?

• 16:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have.

• 16:05Danny Jones?

  That's crazy.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Well, so have you looked at?

• 16:08Danny Jones?

  I did it.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  The red laser?

• 16:09Danny Jones?

  I did it.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  And?

• 16:10Danny Jones?

  I didn't see the code.

• 16:14Danny Jones?

  But I, I might not have gone deep enough. So I saw, I saw kind of like, I had the laser here, actually. We shined it on the wall and I looked at it and I could see the depth through the wall. And I saw like, at first it was like tiny little particles, like you would see if you just really stared at a laser beam on the wall. And then those particles turned into gears all spinning.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:36Danny Jones?

  All interconnected.

• 16:39Danny Jones?

  But I've talked to a few other people that have done it and they, and they, I mean, my friend Neil came here and he did it. He said he saw like Sanskrit.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:47Danny Jones?

  Behind the laser or whatever. I'm going to try it again, but it's, it's interesting because I, I don't know of anything else. Maybe you can elaborate on this, but I've never heard of any sort of psychedelic trip where people see like something that's specific. All of them.

• 17:06Speaker 00

  Well, your friend mentioned it looked like Sanskrit.

• 17:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  But if he weren't familiar with what Sanskrit looked like in the first place, he wouldn't have identified it that way.

• 17:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Uh, do you see? Yeah, so that is where I think, uh, you know, what's already more or less just rattling around, you know, comes to the fore.

• 17:26Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 17:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's the one, that's one of the questions I had too, because of if, if you're talking about seeing matrix code and there's like, hey, you know, take this and look at this thing, tell me if you can find the matrix code, maybe you're kind of like pushing them in that direction already. But there's an argument to be had that like, you know, you could tell them that a couple of days before, maybe they wouldn't be at the front of their mind anymore.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:48Danny Jones?

  But I don't know, I don't know how that works. And how do you make that like a double blind sort of test to see if there's something there? Because you can't, you can't take a picture of it.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  Um, you might be able to record the brain's, you know, response at that time. You know, is there some particular signature in brain connectivity that, uh, that is associated with seeing Sanskrit? Another might be seeing Hebrew, another might be Japanese.

• 18:17Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, you could develop, you know, some profiles, let's say.

• 18:21Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Uh, and yeah, you would have to, uh, give people D M T and, you know, have them look at this, at the laser to obtain some, you know, kind of, you know, firm association between brain activity and what they're seeing.

• 18:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I think he recently took, um, he tried to step it up a notch and he took magnets and he put it behind a wall so people couldn't see where the magnet was. And then like move the magnet around and see if people could see if there was some sort of distortion in the code.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, and.

• 18:55Danny Jones?

  And I think there was, he said that there was nothing, nothing significant that they could measure from that.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wonder what percentage of people who do the experiment actually see code.

• 19:06Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, does Danny have an idea?

• 19:11Danny Jones?

  Um, I know, I don't think he actually told me the percentage, but he said basically.

• 19:18Danny Jones?

  Upwards of a few hundred people have written him or messaged him or have called him and told them that they and he sent them all this, you know, the laser or whatever. And they said they saw the same exact thing that he saw.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:33Danny Jones?

  But that's the same thing that, you know, you know, Gallimore was questioning that, like questioning, you know, how credible that could be. Especially if you're telling people what to expect beforehand, but then, you know, he talked to Gallimore afterwards. And I think Gallimore is going to try to help him with it.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. And what, well, in terms of like a objectifiable.

• 19:58Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  You know, replicable study.

• 20:00Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:00Danny Jones?

  Right. I don't know how you do that.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know how you do that. Yeah, well, I think if you image, you know, the brain function or the, you know, the brain activity, you might be able to discern, you know, some, you know, some similarities among people and some differences.

• 20:15Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  You know, my guess is that it would depend on the person. There are certain, you know, kinds of people, you know, let's say, you know, interested in eastern ideas, western ideas.

• 20:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it would manifest in that way.

• 20:31Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting. Because that's what, that was part of this famous John Hopkins study on psilocybin with the religious leaders. That was for some reason never published and correct me wrong, but the idea of it was to get religious leaders from different, like Christianity, Judaism, eastern religions, and see if their religious worldview affected their experience on psychedelics. Is that what the basic gist of it was?

• 20:56Speaker 00

  Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I've heard about that study. I don't know the details.

• 21:02Danny Jones?

  I thought that was the famous one that was never published.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  Um, I think it is going to be coming out.

• 21:07Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 21:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've got some like information regarding it. Yeah. I think it's been accepted finally. Uh, I'm not sure, but it was from a reliable person.

• 21:16Danny Jones?

  What would you speculate would be the outcome of that?

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Well, you know, I think there's another motivation as well, which is to, you know, demonstrate that that there's a common spiritual experience regardless of your specific faith. I think that's one of the motivations.

• 21:35Danny Jones?

  Yeah, they're motivated to prove this idea called perennialism, I think it's called.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, the mystical experience, which is kind of this unitive ego dissolved, no time or space kind of experience, which is part of most psychedelic experiences, but I don't think it necessarily precludes differences in religious experience as well, which might even be more important. I think overall, too, it would it would make a cleric, you know, possibly more dedicated, you know, to, you know, the clergy and the religion.

• 22:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's the interesting thing about what that's like, as Travis pointed out to me, which blew my mind, is that there, I mean, there are so many different groups with different incentives that are looking into psychedelics and trying to use them to push forward their narrative.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Right, right. It's a wild moment in time.

• 22:36Danny Jones?

  It is.

• 22:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, a few days ago, I was watching that clip of Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson discussing the demons.

• 22:45Danny Jones?

  Yes, I saw that. I saw that. What was Alex? He was saying that there, first of all, he said he ate some DMT or something. Can you find that clip? It'd be great to watch that so we can so we can get a refresh. Go to YouTube, type in Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, DMT. It's a short.

• 23:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's only 58 seconds.

• 23:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's like less than a minute.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  They're in a car.

• 23:07Danny Jones?

  There it is. That's it right there. Yeah, give us some volume on that.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  I haven't done DMT. That's what everybody says.

• 23:12Danny Jones?

  Click on it.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  I haven't done DMT, but I know a lot of famous people that have and others. And the government since the seventies has been doing intervening strip with it. It just didn't become popular the last 20 years by eating it. I've talked to well-known people off record who have gone to these big DMT rituals. Uh, at sacred sites because reportedly those are like gates or places where dimensionally, they've been doing sacrifices for thousands of years. So maybe the things hang around there or it's a ley line, they're not sure. But if you go there and take DMT, they're having groups of 20, 30, 40 people who are seeing the same hallucination on it at the same time. They basically say aliens come up the steps of the pyramid or, you know, and everybody's seeing at the same time they're having.

• 23:53Speaker 03

  Maybe it's not a hallucination.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Well, exactly. If it's individual was seeing it, it's one thing, but then sometimes people in the group even get attacked by these things.

• 24:01Speaker 03

  I would be very afraid that those drugs open up a portal for something to enter me.

• 24:08Danny Jones?

  Thoughts on that?

• 24:11Speaker 00

  Uh, well, I think that they're partly right. Uh, you know, the portal idea anyway. You know, I think that's one of the things that psychedelics and DMT does or do. They are a portal to previously invisible kinds of information. Yeah, you know, so if you open that portal, there is that information conveyed by the visions, uh, which is angelic or demonic. So if you believe in angels, I always say you believe in demons. So, uh, you know, to the extent that one believes in angels, then I think by, you know, necessity, you need to believe in demons as well.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, it's kind of a imagery of, uh, good versus evil.

• 25:00Danny Jones?

  Pete, I mean, have you ever heard of anybody getting chased by demons? The way he explains it where like they're coming after them?

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Uh, I guess on some, you know, I could imagine ayahuasca ceremonies where there's a lot of shamanic communication and information that you would be attacked by demons.

• 25:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 00

  Or it would seem as if you were anyway.

• 25:22Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah. So this angels and demons worldview, which is very much, um, you know, I think Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones are like very devout Christians. They talk about it all the time on their, on their programs. So like if they're trying to fit this DMT experience into their worldview, that would make sense. And going back to that, that John Hopkins study where they're trying to prove some sort of common core to all religions.

• 25:56Danny Jones?

  It's trying to basically paint the fact that like, what, what would the ultimate goal of that be? Would, would the goal of that be to say that psychedelics created all religions?

• 26:10Speaker 00

  Well, that the, that certain aspects of the psychedelic experience, uh, which are defined by this, um, this rating scale called the mystical experience questionnaire.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  That if you answer, if all you, if the, uh, irregardless of your denomination, if your score on the mystical experience scale was, um, number one, high enough and number two, you know, cut across all of the categories, you know, that there was a common mystical experience that all those volunteers had, Jewish, Muslim or Christian, which, uh, would then lead to one being able to propose a universal religion.

• 26:52Danny Jones?

  Oh God.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Um, and that universe, like if, you know, if it's all the same across all of the religions, there must be some universal religion that can be extracted. You know, but the problem with the universal religion is, you know, whose universal religion?

• 27:08Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  And what if you don't agree with it?

• 27:10Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. Then you become a heretic.

• 27:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And how do you push people into a universal religion when people are already in their own unique religions that give them value to their life already? Like, how do you make, how do you do that?

• 27:23Speaker 00

  Well.

• 27:25Speaker 00

  I don't think you can.

• 27:26Danny Jones?

  Right. And one of the even scarier ideas is that if you give the church access to psychedelic drugs, or give them the license to bring psychedelic drugs into their spiritual practice, now you're making these people who are already ascribed to this idea that there's this deacon that has direct communication with God, who is giving these people the answers to their life problems. Now you're putting these, these already vulnerable people on psychedelics. I can see where that can lead to problems.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  Well, I think, yeah, you're pointing to the issue of how do you propagate a universal religion? Yeah, which I think, uh, yeah, I think the cult of personality would start playing a very big role with the enhanced like transference that occurs on psychedelics.

• 28:22Danny Jones?

  Because people, when they're on psyched, I think you've said this before, people on psychedelics are way more, not just vulnerable, but they're way more like agreeable.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, more suggestible.

• 28:33Danny Jones?

  Suggestible. That's what it was. Yes. Right.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Um, and you're with repeated exposure to the same suggestion over and over on psychedelics.

• 28:42Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think it would get kind of, you know, fanatic in a way. It could.

• 28:48Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, because even people who, even people who are like, you know, huge psychedelic proponents who think that psychedelics are the panacea for everything in culture and society. I mean, even they kind of get pretty fanatical to some extent where psychedelics become their god, you know?

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Or they become god somehow, or they're god's messenger. You know, I was talking.

• 29:12Danny Jones?

  The Messiah complex.

• 29:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of messianism in the idea of a universal religion. Like, you know, who would be the spokesman, for example? Yeah. And then you would have a religious figure. Yeah, it would be a new religion. And a couple of years ago, I wrote a book review on Bill Richard's book, who was the lead therapist at Johns Hopkins. And I referred to the idea of a psychedelic universal religion as the psychedelic religion of mystical consciousness.

• 29:45Danny Jones?

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• 31:10Speaker 00

  And there would be some dogma and some authority and probably a hierarchy at some point. That would be the new religion, the institute of the new religion with a certain with a certain range of ideas. The problem with a universal religion based on the mystical experiences is that the mystical experience in and of itself is free of any content. There's no words. There aren't any ideas in that state. All of those ideas are post hoc, like you come down, if that's the right expression, post hoc. Yeah, you come down and then you say what it was.

• 31:51Danny Jones?

  Right. You try to put it into To some sort of verbal context.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, but the interactive relational trip, like where there are visions that you're interacting with. It's full of information, specific information, oftentimes verbal. You know, so if there's this thing saying to you X, Y, and Z. It would be, and you know, those are words that you remember and then you write down and you know, you transmit, talk about. As opposed to just a feeling, which I think is the mystical experience, a very intense feeling. But there's no content, you know, so it's made up after the fact. You know, so it would be more dependent on the personality, I think, of the person who was in like, you know, the authority.

• 32:38Danny Jones?

  Right, right, that that would have a huge effect on the person's experience.

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, and the words they would use in order to describe it.

• 32:48Danny Jones?

  And you've also talked about it being some sort of like a super placebo. And is that, when you say by that, you mean, does that have to do with like your intention?

• 32:57Speaker 00

  Well, your intention, which is part of the set, you know, there's set. And there's everything that isn't your set, you know, the setting. Yeah, so the setting would be supportive and the set would be your intent. And your mental and physical state at the time, your spiritual state. But you would set an intent, so if it was for, you know, for scientific purposes or for spiritual purposes or for fun, your intent will you know, direct to a large, to a large extent, the experience itself. You know, there's also, you know, dealing with, you know, the anxiety of, you know, the initial experience of DMT is very intense, very

• 33:41Speaker 00

  it's quite high speed, so. You need to be able to work with anxiety as well. You know, it's a, you know, it's a complex, it's a, you know, to make the most of a psychedelic experience is a fairly complex task.

• 33:56Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, it's it's a lot. It's a lot of it feels like you're kind of like drinking from a fire hose of information when when it's happening. And then afterwards, you're like, oh, my God, how do I digest all of this stuff?

• 34:07Speaker 00

  I know, I know. That's the the problem is it's a feeling. You're overwhelmed, let's say, by the intensity of the stream of information. But what is that information?

• 34:17Danny Jones?

  Right? Yeah.

• 34:18Speaker 00

  Oftentimes, it's very nebulous and usually quite related to the personality of a person having the experience. Like your friend who envisioned Sanskrit.

• 34:29Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  He wouldn't have called it Sanskrit without some prior knowledge of Sanskrit.

• 34:34Danny Jones?

  Of of. Yes.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  At least, you know, seeing.

• 34:37Danny Jones?

  That's interesting. Yeah, he even showed me a bunch of photos afterwards of the Lord of the Rings, the ring, the like, the kind of like engraving that's on that ring. He's like, it looks just like this. And no one else I've ever heard has said it looked like Sanskrit. They all said it looks like I think Gallimore said that the stuff looked like some Japanese text.

• 34:58Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 34:59Danny Jones?

  I forget what it was called, but he said he thought it was like some some like some obscure Japanese type of like subtext that is used in that culture. But um.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  You did the experiment, right?

• 35:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so what happened to you?

• 35:14Danny Jones?

  Yeah, so I did it. And it was my first time doing DMT.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  First time, really?

• 35:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it was my first time. So so I kind of like I did it. I did like the the four or five hits of the pin. And then I was kind of like on the couch and I kind of closed my eyes for a little bit. That was the most intense part of it. After the super intense part of it was over, I was like, OK, I think I feel I'm back in my body. Now I can go check out this laser. I really wanted to.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Still very stoned, though, right?

• 35:43Danny Jones?

  Yes, still very stoned. Not not anywhere near the peak of the experience, though.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  Well, you can't move on the peak. You're a completely different place.

• 35:52Danny Jones?

  Yes, exactly.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  That's the weird thing about it. It feels like a completely different place. It couldn't be any more similar to this.

• 35:58Danny Jones?

  It was crazy. Like, I was explaining, it felt like it literally like I've I've talked about this at nauseam, but it was my the way I am such a lightweight when it comes to drugs, I was terrified even when it when it comes to like smoking pot. I I can easily go over the edge. So I was super terrified that this was gonna like sent be that times a million. I don't know anything about this stuff. What do I know? But it was like, nothing like that. It was just my soul being ejected out of the top of my head. And like, leaving, leaving behind every attachment I have to my mortal being. Like, my wife, my kids, the po- this podcast, like, everything I've ever known, just being completely detached.

• 36:42Danny Jones?

  And just, my soul being shuttled through, like, light arteries. And, and then, you know, I opened my eyes, and depth was crazier. Like, my depth perception was like on steroids, and I could see, like, pockets of space floating around. Anyways, after that ended, I was like, I wanna check out this laser, so he had it shined on the wall. I walked over to it, and I stared at it for a little bit. And, like I said, I could see these little speckles of light and gears. These, once I focused on these little specks of light, I could see gears connected and rotating together back behind the wall.

• 37:25Danny Jones?

  So like, it was like a rip in the wall. The light was creating a tear in the wall. And I could see this pocket of space back there, where these gears were moving around.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, and what were those gears doing?

• 37:36Danny Jones?

  Just spinning. Just spinning. As far as I can remember, they were just spinning, and they were all connected. I didn't s- I never saw any sort of text, or code, or anything.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Spinning, like, the, the gears were big, small?

• 37:49Danny Jones?

  Very tiny.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  Very tiny.

• 37:50Danny Jones?

  Very tiny gears, millions of them. And they were all connected.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, the first time I smoked a drug, five-methoxy DMT, I found myself surrounded by dwarves, like, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, and they're just countless, countless, just, circling a big chamber that I was at the bottom of.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Like a catwalk.

• 38:15Danny Jones?

  Like a silo?

• 38:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, like a silo.

• 38:17Danny Jones?

  Like, oh, wow.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  And a big, an extensive catwalk, and the catwalk was completely filled with dwarves.

• 38:26Danny Jones?

  That sounds amazing.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  It was kind of scary because I wasn't expecting it at all, and they didn't have the best motivation somehow. They seemed a little, they seemed, you know, kind of sinister.

• 38:37Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 38:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and it was an interesting experience. I was a lot younger and I was wrestling at the time with the notion of good and evil. And, and with, you know, the dwarves, you usually think of dwarves as fun, but these had a malevolent feeling about them. You know, so.

• 38:58Danny Jones?

  Did they communicate?

• 39:00Speaker 00

  Only by their expression. They'd look at me through the corner of their eyes.

• 39:04Danny Jones?

  Oh, God, that was a little sinister.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  It was pretty sinister, yeah, and so I came out of it and said, you know, like, you know, to my sitter, you know, what should I choose? Should I choose good or should I choose evil? And she said, there's no difference, or, you know, something which.

• 39:20Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow, there's no difference.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  Help calm me down.

• 39:23Danny Jones?

  Wow. Yeah, the five, the five methoxy DMT seems terrifying. It's, is it, is it nothing like NN? Or is it similar just on steroids?

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Uh, it's the white light. You're completely, like in most cases, you know, mine was atypical. Usually you, you have no visions on five methoxy. A more typical experience is it's just the white light, things is just white out. And it's ecstatic and you're out of body, no time, no space.

• 39:56Danny Jones?

  Is that the only time you had visions on the five methoxy?

• 40:00Speaker 00

  It was, it was the first time I had.

• 40:03Danny Jones?

  You ever did it?

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:04Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Well, I've only done DMT, like, I've only had one big DMT experience. It's a very strange thing. You would expect that I would have had thousands, but I know mostly about DMT through my volunteers. I mean, that's, you know, that's the truth.

• 40:21Danny Jones?

  You've only done it how many times?

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Just one time.

• 40:23Danny Jones?

  What?

• 40:24Speaker 00

  One big time, yeah.

• 40:25Danny Jones?

  For real?

• 40:26Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:27Danny Jones?

  And that was the time you just explained?

• 40:28Speaker 00

  Uh, that was the time, you know, in the mid 1980s. Yeah, it convinced me to study DMT and.

• 40:37Danny Jones?

  Why haven't you done it since?

• 40:39Speaker 00

  Hmm, haven't really felt the urge to or the need to. It was so intense. I mean, who needs to, I mean, you do take a risk entering into such an intense experience. And I thought I had really done well with the first one and I would just leave it at that. It's, it's kind of like, I guess, you know, going, you know, attaining the mountaintop the first time. So there didn't seem to be any need to repeat that.

• 41:08Danny Jones?

  Interesting. I would have imagined you would have done it thousands of times.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:13Danny Jones?

  Because that was the basis of your latest book, right? That was the latest book that you published was the, the first time that you talked about all your personal experiences with psychedelics.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  Right. My Altered States.

• 41:23Danny Jones?

  My Altered States, right.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  That came out in December.

• 41:26Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I just, I don't know, I can't imagine that somebody like you would have only done it one time.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Just once, 1986 or so. Yeah, I was at the point of ending my melatonin research and I didn't know what to do. I was speaking at a conference and was speaking about DMT and the pineal gland. And that's when Terrence came up and said, would you like to smoke some DMT? Yeah. So I said, sure.

• 41:55Danny Jones?

  How do you say no to that?

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, went to a room, had some good friends around.

• 42:01Danny Jones?

  What was the background with your melatonin research?

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Well, I was looking for an endogenous compound for spiritual experience. I kind of came up with this fascination in college that believing that there was a part of the brain or substance the brain made that created spiritual experience, that spiritual experiences, which were like the psychedelic drug one and spiritual experiences, like those brought about by meditation. I thought there was some common biological factor that was activated in both those states. So the pineal gland was the first place I looked. I was at Stanford at the time. Jim Fadiman was there as well. Jim gave me the idea to look into the pineal.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  And I found out about melatonin, which nobody knew much about the human physiology back then in the early 1980s. So there was some evidence that it was psychedelic that made dreams more intense. Um, you know, all by itself might be psychedelic. So we studied melatonin. I was wondering if the pineal gland was that substance.

• 43:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, interesting.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  Responsible for psychedelic experiences.

• 43:18Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  It's, you know, uh, spiritual ones which had psychedelic, um, you know, properties.

• 43:24Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah, I learned recently that, uh, melatonin is created through this thing called melanopsin, which is a chemical or not a chemical, but it's a hormone that you're, is created through your eyes. So like when you wake up early and you watch the sunrise, your, your eyes produce this chemical called melanopsin or a hormone called melanopsin, which is converted to melatonin, which regulates your circadian rhythm. And I guess the melatonin kicks in really heavy 12 hours after that first light enters your eyes or your retina.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  Well, my understanding is that, um, tryptophan is the precursor for melatonin. Uh, that it begins with dietary tryptophan.

• 44:07Danny Jones?

  Oh, interesting. Dietary tryptophan.

• 44:09Speaker 00

  Uh huh. And that gets modified to melatonin, uh, ultimately. Melanopsin, gosh, I think that's, I think that's a protein or an enzyme.

• 44:19Danny Jones?

  Can you, can you find that, Steve? Find out, uh, the connection between, uh, melanopsin and melatonin? Cause I might be getting that wrong, but I could have, I could have sworn that was the way Alexis explained it to us.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Uh, this might be a good pee break time.

• 44:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, sure.

• 44:36Danny Jones?

  All right, we're back. Um, so I was saying, so to clear up the melanopsin thing, it's a, uh, it's a photopigment that belongs in the opsin family that basically, um, it suppresses melatonin for 12 hours after it's created in the eye. And I think it has something to do with sunlight. Oh, blue visible light. Yeah. So the, so the short wavelengths of blue light from the sun.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah, that was discovered in 98 and I got out of the field in 87, 88 or so. Yeah. Yeah. We found out melatonin was not especially psychoactive. And so that led me to DMT.

• 45:10Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. So what?

• 45:14Danny Jones?

  Made you decide to publish this book all about your personal experiences with psychedelics?

• 45:20Speaker 00

  Oh, right.

• 45:21Danny Jones?

  My altered states.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  My altered states. Yeah, that came out in December. Yeah, it's an illustrated memoir of my altered state experiences in youth. Yeah, and a number of them are psychedelic experiences. First time I smoked cannabis was psychedelic. First time I took LSD, first time I like dissolved into nothing. Those, you know, maybe one half or so of the chapters involve psychedelic experiences.

• 45:50Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, and there's some, there's some from meditation.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  Some from depression, some from actual physical abuse, the altered state that happens then. Yeah, and a friend of mine illustrated it, a girl from Alabama, Merrily Chalice. I think the images really are impressive. They help convey much more of the feeling aspect of the experiences than the written word alone can.

• 46:22Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah, I still find it so interesting that you never pursued DMT more than once because like after I said I did it the first time. I haven't been able to stop thinking about doing it again. I don't think I went far enough. I never saw any sort of beings or any, had any communication like that.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I've never vaped DMT.

• 46:41Danny Jones?

  Oh, you didn't vape it? How did you do it?

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I smoked the free base. Yeah, so I, what I've heard is that you don't get as high with a vape pen as smoking it.

• 46:50Danny Jones?

  Okay, that would explain it.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  That could be, or you didn't take enough hits. Like, you know, could you still, you know, like when you were smoking from the vape?

• 47:02Speaker 00

  Did you find you couldn't like inhale anymore at a certain point? You had to put it down?

• 47:07Danny Jones?

  No, I never had, I never had any sort of issues. People I was with, my friends that I was with, they were having trouble coughing. But I had no, I had no problem holding it in or anything like that or hitting it. I was, um, I think it was the fact that I was just scared. I was, because I did it, I did, remember I did the first hit? I felt a little tingly. He's like, okay, go again. And I held it in for five seconds and then I exhaled. Second hit was like, okay, now I'm feeling loopy. He's like, do a third. I did a third and I'm like, holy crap. There's no, I can't do anymore. I'm like, I'm get, I'm like, really tripping now. I'm seeing the patterns. I'm seeing the fractals, all this stuff, geometry. He goes, okay, now you have to go again. I'm like, what? I'm like, I couldn't even think how to even hold the pen by the time he told me to do it again, let alone take a hit of it.

• 47:51Danny Jones?

  So I managed to take one more hit and as soon as I did the inhale, that's when I just ejected out of my body.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  Well, that's a pretty intense experience.

• 48:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 48:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. So that sounds a lot more like what happens when you smoke the freebase.

• 48:07Danny Jones?

  But I wanted to meet an alien and I didn't get to meet an alien.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  Oh, well, maybe next time, but I mean, why?

• 48:14Danny Jones?

  Because it just sounds, it sounds fun to meet an alien and communicate with an alien and find some profound. You know, I want to get, I'm interested in the idea of using it as a tool to improve my life or improve my thinking or.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, you know, so what would you ask it?

• 48:32Danny Jones?

  Oh God, I don't know. That's a good question.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:37Danny Jones?

  I don't know. Would I even be able to ask a question in that state?

• 48:39Speaker 00

  If you, if you knew what was going on there, yeah, if you were able to keep, you know, keep your focus.

• 48:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know what I would ask it. You know, one of the, one of the interesting things that I've noticed, at least with marijuana, is that whenever I get, whenever I get really high and I, I always come out with at least one thing that I can use in my life out of that experience. Cause usually it's kind of like, as I told you before we started, it's, it's been, if I go too far, my world kind of caves in on me and I start to focus on all the negative things in my life. But, but at the end of it, I always take something positive out of it. And one of the most recent things I've been taking out of it, one of the messages I've been getting from it is to, is to basically to spend more time with my kids.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  Well, that's good advice.

• 49:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I would guess. I mean, yeah.

• 49:33Speaker 00

  Well, so where'd that advice come from, though?

• 49:35Danny Jones?

  That's a good question. I don't know.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, my feeling is it comes from yourself.

• 49:43Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it might.

• 49:45Danny Jones?

  It's some sort of deep, deep untapped, something deep in the soul.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  Uh, it could be that. It might uncover what you've previously weren't aware of, or it may just strengthen things you had a glimmer of their truth before.

• 50:00Danny Jones?

  Right. So it's like a magnifier?

• 50:02Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Stan Grof, the Czech psychiatrist who worked with LSD when, you know, it was legal, and he developed a breathwork technique as well. Described them as nonspecific or nonspecific amplifiers of the unconscious. But they also seem to me to be nonspecific amplifiers of everything, which is in your mind, unconscious, conscious, preconscious. Like, it couldn't act on anything else.

• 50:36Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, no, that makes perfect. That does make sense.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Oh, oh, you're asking about the super placebo idea?

• 50:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, if you, well, you know, back when the interest in psychedelics was really cresting, you could see an article, a scientific paper, once a week on the benefits of taking psychedelics. They make you more compassionate, more open, more progressive, more environmentally attuned. And it seemed like they were, and it helped depression, helped alcohol abuse, helped end of life despair. So they were, you know, basically, you know, doing, you know, they were doing everything to everyone for every condition, which made me think about a panacea, which is a cure all.

• 51:32Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  And, you know, panaceas work through placebo, or at least are, are, you know, kind of related to the placebo response.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  So if you're amplifying the placebo response, you're kind of, you know, directing the outcome in the direction that you already want it to be.

• 51:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 51:58Speaker 00

  You know, so that's why I think of them as super placebos. They uh, you know, you can use them, you can direct their power and their effect in any, um, in any direction. Um, it just depends on what's already in your mind.

• 52:15Danny Jones?

  Wow. Yeah, I've never heard of it described that way before. That's super interesting, but it does make a ton of sense.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  It's a unifying, you know, theory of how psychedelics work. You know, they are drugs. They work on receptors and they work on, uh, you know, functional connectivity and brain network, you know, but you know, subjectively or objectively even within your body, uh, they seem, you know, to activate innate mechanisms.

• 52:43Danny Jones?

  Have you ever heard stories of people describing, um, cause I know you've studied or are currently studying,

• 52:52Danny Jones?

  um, the idea of a tolerance being able to be built with DMT because there's like a tolerance with LSD. If you take LSD for X amount of days, it starts to have enough, stops to have an effect. But, um, have you ever heard stories of people all of a sudden not being able to get high on DMT?

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I've, I heard from somebody not long ago who described that. He smoked DMT in the past, you know, full on experiences. Yeah. And then just stopped responding.

• 53:19Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  That's, that's very weird. I, I, well, it's a mutation in their serotonin receptor, I think, but uh, yeah, how could that come about?

• 53:28Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 53:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a very strange.

• 53:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah, this guy I just had on recently, uh, Zoltan Bathory was explaining to me and he's the guy who I was explaining has done this thousands of times.

• 53:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:38Danny Jones?

  And he was saying that he went in.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Thousands.

• 53:41Danny Jones?

  Or maybe a little, not maybe thousands, maybe a thousand or more is what it was.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  Still.

• 53:45Danny Jones?

  Still, that's a lot. Um, he was explaining that he went somewhere, he saw some being, he was in a room with a being and then like the being became aware of him. He's like, like noticed him out of the corner of his eyes, like, okay, what do you want to know? And then his response was, I don't know. Like, what do you mean? What do I want to know? I don't, I have no idea. He's like, and the being was sort of annoyed by this, that he showed up without any sort of intention or wanting to know anything.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 54:14Danny Jones?

  And then all of a sudden he was kicked back into reality and then he kept trying to go back for weeks and months afterwards and he couldn't get it to work.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:22Danny Jones?

  And he thinks he was intentionally kicked out by these beings.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  Well, I think you need to know what's going on when you're interacting with the being. What you were describing reminded me of Zechariah, one of the prophets in the Bible, who was experiencing a vision of horses. And or of horses, you know, one time or another time, it was, you know, the menorah, the candlestick in the temple, a vision of that. And he was speaking with an angel. And the angel said to him, what do you see? And Zechariah said, I don't know. That's why I'm asking you. And the angel says, well, do you know then?

• 55:11Speaker 00

  Don't you know? Why don't you know? And he said, I don't know. That's the reason I'm asking. And then the angel describes the meaning of the vision.

• 55:20Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow, that's interesting.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, so if you know what to ask, or if you know how to ask, I think, it makes it more likely you'll get, you know, an answer that you can use.

• 55:31Danny Jones?

  But what would be the the chemical explanation for why this stuff would all of a sudden stop working? Has that ever been studied? Like, do we know for a fact, like serotonin receptors can just be turned off?

• 55:47Speaker 00

  You can do knockouts, you know, knockout mutations. You can develop, let's say, a strain of rats that is knocked, the gene for the expression of a certain protein, like a receptor, is knocked out.

• 56:00Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 56:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're called, you know, knockout genes, knockout mice, knockout rats.

• 56:04Danny Jones?

  Oh, OK.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, you knock out, you know, the gene, you know, for example, for the serotonin 2A receptor, you can breed animals which, which, let's see, I think, yeah, yeah, there's an enzyme that's involved in the synthesis of DMT. You can make knockout mice that don't make that enzyme.

• 56:28Danny Jones?

  So they just don't have it from birth? They they never had the enzyme?

• 56:31Speaker 00

  Uh, they never have the enzyme. No, no. And they still make DMT, which is very interesting. It's a it's an enzyme called endole and methyltransferase. And that's the way that, you know, tryptamine is methylated into DMT.

• 56:50Speaker 00

  In the in making DMT, the body first, you know, takes in tryptophan and from the diet, which becomes tryptamine, and then two methyl groups are added on to the tryptamine to make dimethyltryptamine. Yeah, and there's a horm, uh, there's an enzyme, INMT, yeah, which you can knock out the gene that that produces it. But they still produce DMT, so.

• 57:13Danny Jones?

  And then it just somehow comes back after it gets knocked out?

• 57:16Speaker 00

  Um, no, it just continues. Yeah, Nick Glennos in Ann Arbor, uh, did his doctoral work looking at those knockout animals. Yeah, and they're and they still make DMT. Yeah, you were saying that you had, you know, Dave Nichols in the other day.

• 57:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 57:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, so, you know, what is endogenous DMT doing? Which is a, you know, its own conversation.

• 57:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, concentrations in the brain, actually, are rather high, you know, Nick.

• 57:50Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I was asking him about this and and Dave was explaining to me that it could have something more to do with endorphins.

• 57:56Speaker 00

  Uh huh. Yeah, yeah.

• 57:58Danny Jones?

  Like the dream, well, I think I was specifically asking him about dreams and lucid dreams and things like this.

• 58:04Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 58:05Danny Jones?

  And, uh, you know, his idea was that the DMT in the brain is not enough to have any significant effect.

• 58:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, the presence of DMT in the pineal is still equivocal, still not really nailed down. Uh, but, you know.

• 58:21Danny Jones?

  How can't, why, why can't we figure it out? Why is it so difficult?

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Um, why is that so difficult? Well, there's not much interest in endogenous DMT.

• 58:32Danny Jones?

  So it's hard to do the studies?

• 58:33Speaker 00

  Well, people aren't doing the studies.

• 58:35Danny Jones?

  People just don't do it. There's no funding.

• 58:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's no, there's no funding. Right. The woman in Ann Arbor who's overseen a lot of the DMT work there is Gimo Burgegen, who's been unable, you know, hasn't been able to get funding to look at the role of endogenous DMT. You know, what is, you know, what is DMT doing in the brain of mammals and, you know, human brains?

• 58:58Danny Jones?

  Well, not even just what is it doing, just base level, how much is there? Like, can't, can't we just like, cut out some pineal glands and inspect them for, like, measure the DMT? How hard is it to measure DMT in somebody's pineal gland or even their blood?

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• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  Well, it's quite difficult in blood. Concentrations are in picograms per mil, which is in the range of, you know, billionths

• 1:00:19Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:00:19Speaker 00

  of grams

• 1:00:20Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:00:20Speaker 00

  per mil. You, you can't really depend on, you know, peripheral levels of DMT in the blood. In, in the brain, I mean, you don't, or in, you know, the living brain, the living pineal. Yeah, you'd have to get fresh frozen brain tissue or something and, you know, you take a look.

• 1:00:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah, because I guess I wonder if it's like after death, if somehow dissipates, or if you could study people that are like close to death, because people say that there's these, uh, these near death experiences people have are very similar to DMT. And even people that are like, even my grandmother who recently passed away. I know there's, she was explaining this, how she was seeing visions of like dead relatives, like speaking to her, communicating with her, and like she had never experienced, done any psychedelics or anything like this. This was just like these voices and visions

• 1:01:21Danny Jones?

  she was having like weeks before she passed away. And I've read lots of other descriptions of this where people kind of have these deathbed visions. And it is that, that one of the ideas, people speculate is that that might have something to do with the DMT.

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, the Michigan group demonstrated increases in brain DMT in the dying animal and the dead animal.

• 1:01:42Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  Especially in the visual cortex, that part of the brain mediating vision. You know, so that could be a way to explain the visual components of the near death experience.

• 1:01:54Danny Jones?

  So they somehow were able to measure the brain levels of DMT in dying animals?

• 1:02:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Brain tissue.

• 1:02:02Danny Jones?

  Wow, that's wild.

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's pretty interesting. Uh, if like, you know, one of the interesting elements of DMT is it's neuroprotective in ischemia.

• 1:02:19Danny Jones?

  What does that mean?

• 1:02:20Speaker 00

  Well, it, it means when you expose a neuron to low oxygen levels, it'll, it will die.

• 1:02:30Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:02:30Speaker 00

  Um, and with DMT, it allows the neuron to live longer.

• 1:02:37Danny Jones?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:02:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it also reduces stroke size. There's a Hungarian group's been working on that.

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  So it's been, it's starting to be studied anyway in stroke. Uh, because it's neuroprotective and it uh is like a other, you know, classical psychedelic. It stimulates neurogenesis.

• 1:02:59Danny Jones?

  So, so uh for people who have suffered strokes.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  Uh huh. Yeah, yeah. There's a group in Canada, Algernon, that's been uh, I've been consulting with, or I have been consulting with that is working on a DMT stroke study.

• 1:03:13Danny Jones?

  And how would they administer the DMT to these people?

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, they've worked out some, you know, the model. It's six or eight hours of sub psychedelic dose of DMT. Um, it still will, you know, have some biological effects, but it's not especially mind altering. Yeah. So it's a low, steady dose.

• 1:03:30Danny Jones?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Danny Jones?

  That's fast. Are they still doing it?

• 1:03:33Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're moving ahead with, I think, you know, clinical work, although I'm just not sure. But I think they're, you know, thinking about clinical work at least.

• 1:03:42Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Danny Jones?

  One of the most interesting things to me is this um, how people recall this telepathic experiences on DMT. And not only that, there's telepathic experiences like within near death experiences. There's stor-, I don't know if you've ever heard stories of people who like been in a car accident together, explaining they're in this, having this near death dream, hallucinate, whatever you want to call it, with the other person that they were in that accident with. And in some cases, that person being carried off if they died, them being put back into their body. And then you have like, like Dennis, when he talks about what they, you know, him and Terrence in La Chorrera.

• 1:04:26Danny Jones?

  I think Dennis ate mushrooms, like so many mushrooms that he was in this other universe for like 10 days.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:04:34Danny Jones?

  And him and Terrence were communicating telepathically the whole time.

• 1:04:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Very interesting.

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  Well, you know, shared or telepathic experiences, like I ought to talk more about the book, probably.

• 1:04:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  You know, when the opportunity comes up, and this is a good example of the first time I smoked any cannabis product, which is one of the chapters in my book, My Altered States. Yeah, I had a telepathic experience with my roommate.

• 1:05:06Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  We were sitting on Persian carpet on the floor and the floor just gave out from under us. And we floated over town and we were, you know, controlling the movement of the rug as well as, you know, comparing what we were seeing down below. Yeah, oh, look at that, oh, look. And we were seeing it together and we were, you know, steering it higher and lower.

• 1:05:31Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  And we both.

• 1:05:33Danny Jones?

  Are you sure this weed wasn't laced with?

• 1:05:35Speaker 00

  Well, it was hash, actually.

• 1:05:37Danny Jones?

  Oh, it was hash?

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's a funny story. Like, it was a Friday night in November and, yeah, there was a knock on the door and the senior resident advisor came by and he said, "I hear you haven't gotten stoned yet", which was true. "And would you like to smoke some blonde Lebanese hash?" So, yeah, he, you know, he came in and we, yeah, and we smoked and some friends came in and, you know, the flying carpet experience took place.

• 1:06:08Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. That's wild. Yeah, the telepathy thing, what, like, how do you explain that?

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  Well, I think, I think it would be just sort of a step up from shared feelings or shared thoughts. You know, why not have your shared perceptions too? I think if you're, you know, if you're close enough, you know, vibrationally, and if DMT, let's say, were involved, which would be mediating the visions, then you might be able to share an experience like that.

• 1:06:42Danny Jones?

  Have you ever heard anybody ever?

• 1:06:48Danny Jones?

  Engaging in any kind of trip like how Dennis describes what they did in La Chorrera, where he's basically gone for 10 days and he explained that like he had to eat the mushrooms that was just like their calories one day and he couldn't even, he couldn't even like shit on his own. He explained, he literally explained like how he had to take a shit. He had to like ask somebody to take a shit for him. And really, he was just like completely out of his body for 10 days communicating with Terrence. And like, I don't know if there's ever been anything like that done before. And I'd be curious, like how many of those experiences where people are sharing

• 1:07:31Danny Jones?

  an experience like that and communicating telepathically? How many times has that been done or recorded?

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've got a colleague in Basteer University up in, up in Seattle who's interested in actually, you know, doing, you know, brain scans on people in distant rooms and seeing if they can be telepathic and if so, would their brain function, their EEG be similar?

• 1:07:59Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that would be fascinating.

• 1:08:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a very cool study. I don't, I don't know if it's been finished or published or whatnot, but you know, I think that's one of the ways that you could start to study telepathy.

• 1:08:12Danny Jones?

  I always wonder if, if like these experiences that we have are like something that we were more attuned to centuries ago, or even, you know, hundreds of thousands of years ago, if we had, if we had these abilities to communicate telepathically, or to, you know, even be in more of an altered state or have just more of an experience of reality in real life, similar to how people experience, how did people describe their experiences? Like when they go to the Amazon for the first time, how they explain like all these dormant senses just wake up, being in the jungle, being disconnected from technology and all this and all these things, you know?

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's one of the ways in which they become more telepathic.

• 1:09:01Danny Jones?

  Right. Like I wonder if like, like this telepathic, if just ancient humans were more...

• 1:09:09Danny Jones?

  Our bodies were more technologically advanced and we had ways to communicate without verbal, right? And just because we're so, because we had, our antennas were more in tune to something else.

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:24Danny Jones?

  That now our antennas are kind of just, they've gone dormant because of the evolution of technology and phones and the internet and all these things.

• 1:09:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Are you familiar with Julian Jaynes and the bicameral mind?

• 1:09:38Danny Jones?

  I've heard of it.

• 1:09:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I've heard of the bicameral mind.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes. So, you know, Jaynes taught that, you know, there was the spoken voice, which occurred all of the time in everyone. And then at some point biologically, that just, or at, yes, at some point, there were changes in brain structure and function that made the spoken voice go away. You know, it's interesting, within the tradition of Hebrew Bible prophecy, you know, there's an end of prophecy that occurred at a certain point, you know, so, you know, that would not have taken place as far back as Jaynes is suggesting.

• 1:10:21Danny Jones?

  So she's saying the human mind operated in a non-conscious state until about 3,000 years ago, where individuals experienced auditory hallucinations as commands from God, guiding their actions.

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  Whoa. Yeah, so it places, you know, the self on a side of the body.

• 1:10:46Speaker 00

  And, yeah, you know, there was no self, there was no personal self, you were just kind of responding to this thing.

• 1:10:55Danny Jones?

  The right hemisphere of the brain interpreted sensory data, judged and decided, and formed language, while the left hemisphere acted as, acted on these commands without being aware of the decision-making process.

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, no free will.

• 1:11:09Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:11:10Speaker 00

  Or was, it was experienced anyway as no free will. And, you know, then, you know, the authority became, you know, interjected, you know, for some reason, which may have come about, you know, because of volcanic activity, earthquakes, those kinds of things, some, you know, natural catastrophes.

• 1:11:30Danny Jones?

  Hmm, 3,000 years ago.

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, the end of the prophetic stream was about, you know, I don't know, 2,500 years ago or so.

• 1:11:43Danny Jones?

  The end of the prophetic stream?

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:46Danny Jones?

  So this is your, so you wrote the whole book on, on the Hebrew Bible and prophets?

• 1:11:53Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:54Danny Jones?

  And the idea is like, the idea of prophets and psychedelic collusionations, like there's like, there's a connection there?

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  Well, I think there's a lot of similarities phenomenologically. You know, the visions are the same, you know, type.

• 1:12:10Danny Jones?

  Like Ezekiel?

• 1:12:12Speaker 00

  Ezekiel's vision is very psychedelic, very much like DMT. You know, there's beings with wings and eyes on the, on the wings. And there's lightning and there's frozen ice and there's wheels and there's circles and flashes of lightning. It's quite psychedelic.

• 1:12:27Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, uh, you know, those are what are called the canonical prophets, the ones who have books written about them or by them. Uh, and the canonical prophets ended at a certain point in, in history.

• 1:12:40Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:40Speaker 00

  You know, uh, maybe halfway through the second temple. You know, so maybe, I don't know.

• 1:12:47Danny Jones?

  When was the Hebrew Bible written? Like a thousand AD?

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  Uh, it was written, you know, before the common era. It was closed at about 150.

• 1:12:58Danny Jones?

  I thought it was, I thought it was written in a thousand AD. Maybe I'm, what am I thinking of?

• 1:13:03Speaker 00

  It was written in, in Hebrew.

• 1:13:07Danny Jones?

  Tenth, the Hebrew Bible?

• 1:13:11Speaker 00

  Is quite old. It's, you know, the basis of Christianity and is mentioned, you know, regularly by the Quran.

• 1:13:17Danny Jones?

  All right, so.

• 1:13:19Speaker 06

  Tenth century?

• 1:13:20Danny Jones?

  What?

• 1:13:20Speaker 06

  It's like 10,000 years? That's not true.

• 1:13:23Danny Jones?

  There's no way. Cause the Septuagint was, when was the Septuagint written?

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  Uh, around the turn of the era, maybe a hundred years before.

• 1:13:31Danny Jones?

  The Septuagint was Hellenistic, I thought.

• 1:13:33Speaker 00

  It was Greek, yeah.

• 1:13:34Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:13:39Danny Jones?

  10,000 B.C. Okay, so, okay, so this one is saying 12,000 to 100.

• 1:13:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds about right.

• 1:13:49Danny Jones?

  So the crazy thing, the crazy thing about the prophets, the crazy thing to me about the Bible,

• 1:13:57Danny Jones?

  is that all these prophets that are written about, that were like Moses, Ezekiel, all these people, they're only written about in the Bible, and there's no other historical writing about it. You know, like even like Moses, I think, I think he existed like a thousand years before the first, allegedly, when the Bible says he existed, was a thousand years before he was ever even written about.

• 1:14:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you have to go even further back than that to Abraham.

• 1:14:31Danny Jones?

  Even Abraham, right?

• 1:14:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, like Abraham preceded Moses by many generations.

• 1:14:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah, so it's like, to me, like, it's so fascinating how, like, you have, in antiquity, all this stuff that's going on, you have, you have all this philosophy, all the science, all the medical literature. I think Galen wrote like 10% of the classical literature that exists today in Greek.

• 1:15:00Danny Jones?

  You have comedy, you have legal documents that are written in antiquity, but then you have this narrow lane of the Bible, where you have all these other stories, but none of those people are corroborated anywhere out of the Bible, right? Like, there's no, like, none of these people in the Bible, Ezekiel, Mahat, like, none of them. Is there any historical text about them? Is there any medical text about them? Did any of these guys have physicians? Was, because that's usually how you corroborate things when you're studying classical history, right? You look at like, when, even quoting people, like Julius Caesar, when he quotes a historian, that's how you validate that historian and the things that he writes about.

• 1:15:46Speaker 00

  Well, and you're wondering then if the story's in the Bible and the figures are real.

• 1:15:51Danny Jones?

  Right, well, I mean, I don't think, I think they're all fairy tales, but, like, that's...

• 1:15:58Danny Jones?

  That's just one of the most obvious things to me. It's like the way, I love to look at it, which is a way a friend of mine who's a classical philologist explained this to me. It's like, imagine in 2,000 years from now,

• 1:16:13Danny Jones?

  there's people that are saying Gandalf is real. And how do they know Gandalf is real? It's because there's this divine trilogy that was written about Gandalf and how he lives in the middle of the earth. And it's called The Lord of the Rings. But there's no one, no one else is writing about Gandalf, except for in this trilogy. It's like, it's the same, the same thing almost.

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  Well, it's been a couple of thousand years and the Bible hasn't been replaced yet. Which I think is an interesting aspect that characterizes as possibly unique. Yeah, you know, it's been very influential. You know, our kids are named after, you know, figures in the Bible, our law.

• 1:16:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah, oh yeah.

• 1:16:56Speaker 00

  Our theology, architecture, art, poetry, wisdom, literature. You know, it's all contained in the Bible. You know, it's influenced governments, you know, the church, you know, Christianity is founded on, you know, the texts. You know, so it's been quite enduring and quite influential.

• 1:17:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:17:16Speaker 00

  Which I think makes it a unique book.

• 1:17:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, compared to Gandalf, you know, it just influenced people, but you know, there's not, you know, churches. And that there's not, you know, a clerical establishment.

• 1:17:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, you know, more of a recreational at this point, probably compared to, you know, the influence of the Hebrew Bible.

• 1:17:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah, no, it's been, it's been a huge influence, but like times are different right now, right? With like technology and, and everything else. Back then, people were so different.

• 1:17:50Speaker 00

  Well, you think so? You're not sure.

• 1:17:53Danny Jones?

  In certain ways, in certain ways.

• 1:17:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, it's strange. It's like, you know, one half of the world's population is either Christian or Muslim.

• 1:18:02Danny Jones?

  That's crazy.

• 1:18:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, so.

• 1:18:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah, but it's not, is it the same way? Is like, the way people, the way people are Christian and Muslim and Jewish today, is that the same way that people thought about religions in antiquity? Like, did they live and die by their religions back then? Or were like, like, for example, like, think about pagan religions. People would just, they just use religions. They could swap religions. They could have five different religions they ascribe to.

• 1:18:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:18:28Danny Jones?

  They can believe in five different gods, ten different gods.

• 1:18:31Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:18:32Danny Jones?

  Now, it's like, the way it's fused into culture and how it's so black and white, you know, and how people, and then when you add the internet into that and the way people communicate now,

• 1:18:48Danny Jones?

  you know, it's become this just confusing cauldron of ideas and ways for people to argue and, and, and it's become, I think, more divisive than ever.

• 1:18:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, do you think that's because of the invasion of demonic forces?

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  Speaking of.

• 1:19:08Danny Jones?

  I don't know. How, what do you, what do you call a demon? How do you define a demon?

• 1:19:12Speaker 00

  Uh, well, you know it when you see it.

• 1:19:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Speaker 00

  Well, it's effect on you as well. Are you a better person or not?

• 1:19:22Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  Like, are you prone to destruction?

• 1:19:24Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:19:25Speaker 00

  Versus building things up?

• 1:19:27Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:19:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you thrive on chaos or not?

• 1:19:29Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:29Speaker 00

  Well, I think also, you know, do you tell the truth? A few months back, I read a book on the Antichrist, which was, you know, called The Antichrist. And the Antichrist is characterized by the big lie, by the lie. The Antichrist is a liar. Um, and that's, you know, the way he's been defined or has been defined over the millennia.

• 1:19:51Danny Jones?

  Huh. Where did the Antichrist first come from? Who was the first Antichrist?

• 1:19:57Speaker 00

  Uh, the first Antichrist, well, you know, yeah, probably people who didn't believe in, you know, Christ as the Messiah.

• 1:20:07Danny Jones?

  Is Satan the first Antichrist?

• 1:20:09Speaker 00

  Um, well, yeah.

• 1:20:11Danny Jones?

  Was that a word? Was it a term?

• 1:20:14Speaker 00

  It was a term that only appears twice in the Hebrew Bible. And in both times, it means accuser.

• 1:20:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, like a prosecutor.

• 1:20:22Danny Jones?

  Or opponent, right?

• 1:20:23Speaker 00

  Or opponent, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's the story of the pagan prophet who, um, my train of thought.

• 1:20:35Speaker 00

  Beelam had, uh, yeah, well, he was a false prophet as a pagan prophet, but was quite potent in his predictions and his poetry. Yeah. When I get to that point, I'll remember.

• 1:20:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's a, um, there's an idea that.

• 1:20:55Speaker 00

  Oh, oh, the Antichrist, the Satan. Yeah, yeah. You know, so, um, he's like, you're beating his animal. You know, because, uh, well, you know, to get off the road because there's an angel placed on the road that is, uh, you know, threatening him. And, um, you know, the threatening part is the Hebrew root is the formation or the basis of Satan or Satan.

• 1:21:20Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Have you ever heard of the idea of, um, Christ being a drug term?

• 1:21:26Speaker 00

  You know, John Allegro?

• 1:21:28Danny Jones?

  Oh, yes, John Allegro, yeah, I've heard of it. Yeah, Ruck actually endorsed his book, Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

• 1:21:34Speaker 00

  Uh, Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, yeah. Yeah, that's a classic. I've never read it.

• 1:21:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah, no, his is different. I, I think there's a lot of gaping holes in his idea because he, he traces, he traces the Hebrew, I guess he was a scholar at the Dead Sea Scrolls, right? He studied the Dead Sea Scrolls for a long time.

• 1:21:51Speaker 00

  For a long time, yeah. He was one of the initial investigators.

• 1:21:54Danny Jones?

  He translated the Hebrew and one of his, he was making a lot of connections in that book to Sumerian roots. And I don't think Hebrew has any shared commonality or, or roots with Sumerian.

• 1:22:11Speaker 00

  Uh, as far as I know, no.

• 1:22:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, you know, there's Akkadian influences and Hittites, Assyrian.

• 1:22:17Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:19Speaker 00

  And Arabic as well.

• 1:22:20Danny Jones?

  Right. So his idea of like the, I mean, the main connection I think he made was that like a mushroom isn't fertilized. It just comes from like the, the rain is the semen of God. And then it hits the earth and then the mushroom is divine.

• 1:22:33Speaker 00

  Well, I think you need to be careful in analogizing or allegorizing the text.

• 1:22:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. You can really take it too far from, you know, the basis of the text, which is what the, it was, is what it's intended to communicate.

• 1:22:47Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm. But no, what, when the idea I was talking about was there's, um, the word Christ in antiquity in Greek means to apply drugs to somebody, to, to give somebody drugs. And there's, there's multiple different definitions of the word Christ. But, um, and that's the hard part about trying to define what this meant. But according to, um, a classical philologist that I talked to and a bunch of other people that study this stuff, the ancient Greek, um, his name's Amen, he's the guy who lives in Taos. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Amen Hillman, he's a classical philologist.

• 1:23:28Danny Jones?

  There's, there's different meanings to, to Christ. To put roofs on, uh, to add, put roofs on houses, that's called christing.

• 1:23:41Danny Jones?

  But basically the idea, uh, his idea of what christing was during Jesus's time was some, it was a somebody who just did drugs and gave people drugs. So it was kind of like a, like a prophet in a drug sense.

• 1:23:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. That's taking great liberty with the word meaning. Um, yeah. The, um, you know, the Hebrew.

• 1:24:04Danny Jones?

  We've, we've looked it up on the, um, on the, on the Greek, there's a website where you can translate Greek and it was, uh, it was one of the, one of the many definitions that are there.

• 1:24:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. It, uh, is the basis of the idea of, um, of christening.

• 1:24:21Speaker 00

  And oftentimes, you know, there's an anointing involved.

• 1:24:25Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:26Speaker 00

  Anointing by oil.

• 1:24:27Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:24:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:28Danny Jones?

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:24:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, so the Hebrew root has to do with anointing. And, you know, Christos, you anoint, you christen. You know, by oil. You know, and Mashach, or the Hebrew root, is the root of Messiah as well. You know, so that's where you get the anointing and the Messiah in the name of Christ from christening.

• 1:24:52Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Yeah, and.

• 1:24:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, it isn't related, you know, to drugs as far as I know from the Hebrew Bible. It might have been a, well, it's an interpretation of Allegra then. He's like, you know, back engineering almost.

• 1:25:09Danny Jones?

  Yeah, no, this is, I don't, I don't think it has anything to do with Allegra because this guy doesn't, he only translates Greek. So he reads all the, all the ancient Greek. So, so what he does is he takes, he reads all the Greek from classical antiquity. And tries to figure out what words meant in certain time periods. Like between, like the word Christ had different meanings from 1,000 B.C. than it did at 100 B.C. So he reads like the medical stuff. He mainly read, he mainly focused on the medical texts.

• 1:25:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:40Danny Jones?

  Like Galen and, and other things. But he also read like comedies, philosophy, all kinds of different, because there was so much Greek literature.

• 1:25:52Speaker 00

  On Christ.

• 1:25:52Danny Jones?

  It was unbelievable. No, no, not just on Christ, but everywhere. But lots of people were using the word Christ in random areas throughout all the literature. Right? A lot of it was in medical literature. So he's like, okay, let's take the consensus on what people, what the context was for the word Christ during this time, from Julius Caesar to, you know, a couple hundred years A.D. And, and his idea is that overwhelmingly it's used as a drug term to apply drugs.

• 1:26:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, could it just be applying oil for therapeutic reasons? Like some kind of.

• 1:26:30Danny Jones?

  I don't know, maybe.

• 1:26:31Speaker 00

  Maybe some kind of medical oil. It would be, I thought, yeah, I think it would be anointing.

• 1:26:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah, but his, so, so his. Dissertation was on Galen, who's Marcus Aurelius's physician. And from which, you know, also happens to be like 10% of the literature we have from antiquity.

• 1:26:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:26:51Danny Jones?

  And Galen just talks about, you know, all the drugs being used and everything he's prescribing Marcus Aurelius. And Marcus Aurelius gets hooked on opium. And he's writing in his journals all about all the opium he has to keep giving Marcus Aurelius. He's like, he keeps having to increase the dose and he's getting annoyed by how much more opium he has to give him. And, uh, you know, they're using viper venoms. They're trying to create antidotes to viper venoms by like, by using the, the human, the human immune system. So they're, they're impregnating bandages with viper venom, North African viper venoms. Basically, you know, putting a little bit of viper venom on the bandage, cutting children, wrapping their cut in viper venom so that, cause they have the most robust immune systems. They're going to develop more antibodies.

• 1:27:36Danny Jones?

  So they can use the children's blood or their bodily fluids as an antidote to, to snake bites.

• 1:27:42Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:27:42Danny Jones?

  Like all kinds of crazy stuff. He's this thing called the theriak where they mix this concoction of like 12 different North African snakes into the flesh and the viper and all this other crazy stuff. And they explained that as like a panacea and he was giving it to Marcus Aurelius. And he's like, in his notes, he's like, he's like, uh, the king is starting to look better. You know, after taking the theriak. But, you know, this could be just, you know, looking through the, the lens of somebody who was focused on ancient drugs.

• 1:28:11Speaker 00

  Well, and so he's, you know, primarily focusing on the Sumerian.

• 1:28:16Danny Jones?

  No, he's focusing on the Greek.

• 1:28:18Speaker 00

  On, on the ancient Greek.

• 1:28:19Danny Jones?

  The ancient Greek.

• 1:28:20Speaker 00

  Okay, okay.

• 1:28:21Danny Jones?

  Which was, he explains is, was everywhere. You know, the Library of Alexandria had over a hundred and 50,000 copies in it, in its height.

• 1:28:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was burned down.

• 1:28:30Danny Jones?

  And it was all Greek.

• 1:28:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:32Danny Jones?

  All Greek, no Hebrew, no Latin, nothing else.

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, was this fellow talking about the psychedelic experience at all?

• 1:28:42Danny Jones?

  No, he never, he was never into psychedelics, really, himself, I don't think.

• 1:28:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, sometimes people report, you know, mastery of a foreign language that they didn't have before. You know, they were studying it, but then they became expert in it.

• 1:28:56Danny Jones?

  Really, like, modern day people?

• 1:28:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I know a woman who's a member of one of the ayahuasca churches in New Mexico, who was, was struggling with learning Portuguese. And then on ayahuasca was able to just really, you know, hone in on it and become quite fluent.

• 1:29:17Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:29:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, very quickly.

• 1:29:19Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. I gotta tell him about this, maybe it'll help him. No, he spent his whole life, he has a master, or has a PhD in Greek, in classical philology, which is the basically the translation of ancient Greek.

• 1:29:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, philology is interesting, the meaning of words. Yeah, when I was beginning my study of the Hebrew Bible, I had two huge dictionaries next to me and just spent all my time going back and forth, back and forth.

• 1:29:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah, isn't it interesting that there's no, there's nothing in ancient Hebrew outside of the Bible? It's all, it's all canonical.

• 1:29:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Danny Jones?

  There's no like ancient medical texts in Hebrew, there's no ancient philosophical texts in Hebrew.

• 1:29:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:58Danny Jones?

  And it's 7,000 words, right?

• 1:29:59Speaker 00

  Not, you know, not from...

• 1:30:02Danny Jones?

  From ancient Greek.

• 1:30:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, are you talking?

• 1:30:05Danny Jones?

  I'm sorry, ancient Hebrew, I'm sorry, I'm talking about ancient Hebrew, yeah.

• 1:30:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, well, you know, it's an old text, so not much has survived.

• 1:30:12Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:30:12Speaker 00

  You know, the Palestinian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud are rather old, but, you know, they were written like after the turn of the Common Era. Yeah, they're written in Hebrew, but there's, you know, there isn't anything contemporaneous with the Hebrew Bible, you know, that has been discovered, like, you know, philosophy, you know, medicine. I wonder if those texts are found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, I'm not that familiar with them.

• 1:30:42Danny Jones?

  So the Dead Sea Scrolls, as far as I understand, they're all religious texts?

• 1:30:46Speaker 00

  There's no medical texts.

• 1:30:48Danny Jones?

  There's no medical text, there might have been, you know what, I think there was a few receipts or something, like from people, you know, borrowing a cow or buying a cow in exchange for something else or whatever.

• 1:31:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:01Danny Jones?

  But they were all? Religious texts and there was Greek in there too.

• 1:31:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:07Danny Jones?

  And those were discovered when?

• 1:31:09Speaker 00

  Uh, nineteen forty seven.

• 1:31:11Danny Jones?

  Nineteen forty's and they dated them to what? They dated them to like two hundred B.C. or something like that, one fifty B.C.?

• 1:31:16Speaker 00

  Uh, not that far back, but pretty far back.

• 1:31:18Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:31:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I had a Dead Sea Scroll scholar in here and he was explaining to me all the crazy stuff like he was explaining to me how there's like all these, uh, there's this huge market of people peddling fake tech, fake scrolls, like fake fragments of scrolls, selling them for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

• 1:31:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, uh, have most of them been discovered? Most of the Dead Sea Scrolls are that they still think they're, you know, that's.

• 1:31:46Danny Jones?

  I don't know.

• 1:31:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:47Danny Jones?

  I don't know. I mean, they found them in some cave in the middle of the desert, some random caves.

• 1:31:50Speaker 00

  Some cave and a number of caves, yeah, after they discovered that first one.

• 1:31:55Danny Jones?

  In Qumran.

• 1:31:57Speaker 00

  Qumran, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, some people think, you know, that's, you know, that's the origin of really Christianity.

• 1:32:05Speaker 00

  It occurred within that community.

• 1:32:07Danny Jones?

  Dead Sea Scrolls, right, found the, uh, da, da, da, da, da. Does it say the date?

• 1:32:13Speaker 00

  Oh, some remain.

• 1:32:14Danny Jones?

  It was early, it was, it was, uh, I think it was like one, one to one fifty, they tried to date them too.

• 1:32:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, the second temple, uh, which was destroyed in seventy C.E. But stood for almost, I don't know, four or five hundred years, so.

• 1:32:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:29Speaker 00

  It's at least, you know, there are at least, you know, two hundred years B.C.E.

• 1:32:35Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:32:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, probably not much further back.

• 1:32:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah, but this guy, um, this, this, uh, classical philologist, Amman, he was explaining to me like, uh, like, reading Greek, reading ancient Greek is almost like a mind-expanding drug in itself.

• 1:32:50Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. If you really study those ancient religious, uh, you know, languages, they put you in altered state.

• 1:32:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's what he was explaining to me.

• 1:32:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's like reading sutras, uh, in, in, you know, Pali, let's say, you know, Buddhist, you know, sutras and their original language. Yeah, it produces a meditative state. I think the more you understand the language, the more it affects you mentally.

• 1:33:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I spend, I spend about an hour every day studying the Hebrew Bible.

• 1:33:20Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow, really?

• 1:33:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's the English and, you know, the Hebrews, you know, side by side.

• 1:33:25Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:33:26Speaker 00

  Oh, you know, that was, you know, the basis ultimately of that prophetic states book.

• 1:33:30Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. Yeah, um, Ancient Greek has like over, over a million unique words. Which is crazy.

• 1:33:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's like, well, u- unique words. Um, is it, well, you know, the Hebrew language is based on three-letter roots. And there aren't, and there aren't that many, uh, under a thousand. Yeah, you know, but the whole, you know, language is built upon words that are built upon these three-letter roots.

• 1:33:57Danny Jones?

  Do you think that, uh, do you believe that people in that time period around the time of Christ were experiencing mind-altering drugs?

• 1:34:08Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, probably, but I don't think it's, oh, right, yeah, I don't think it was that widespread. It might have been under, yeah, I don't think it inf- inf- yeah, I don't think it was that common. Yeah, I just don't know that. I'm, you're not a historian of

• 1:34:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:34:26Speaker 00

  drug use.

• 1:34:27Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, because like, from one of his books was called The Chemical Muse, he was talking about how like, in antiquity, people were dying all the time from everything. And the infant, like the infant mortality rate was like fifty percent. There was always combat going on. There was always plague, famine, people dying in the worst ways all the time. And people were, um, one of the things he explained was people would walk through the town and basically fumigate the town with cannabis.

• 1:35:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:01Danny Jones?

  And people were just always trying to get high just to get through the day.

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  Oh, really? Yeah.

• 1:35:06Danny Jones?

  According to, according to his book, yeah.

• 1:35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:09Danny Jones?

  But, you know, it's interesting.

• 1:35:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:10Danny Jones?

  And then you have the Eleusinian mysteries. What was going on there? That's crazy, too.

• 1:35:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you know, that ergot containing mixture.

• 1:35:21Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:22Speaker 00

  What was it called?

• 1:35:24Danny Jones?

  The Kaikian, Kukian.

• 1:35:25Speaker 00

  Kaikian, yeah, yeah. Yacar Rock and all that.

• 1:35:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah, the road to Eleusis.

• 1:35:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:30Danny Jones?

  With Wasson and Hoffman.

• 1:35:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, yeah, the whole, your relationship between, you know, drugs and early Christianity.

• 1:35:40Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:35:41Speaker 00

  Very interesting.

• 1:35:42Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that, one of the things, um, Dave Nichols was explaining to me was that, or we were talking about, there's a, was actually an ergot museum.

• 1:35:51Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 1:35:52Danny Jones?

  In the US. And this was tied to

• 1:35:57Danny Jones?

  one of the guys, like, his name's escaped me right now, who was trying to synthesize a lot of LSD.

• 1:36:06Danny Jones?

  And he got arrested.

• 1:36:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:11Danny Jones?

  I, I brought him up, I brought him up to David and he kind of rolled his eyes at me.

• 1:36:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:16Danny Jones?

  But this was like, this was like right bef- before, or no, I think he got money for MKUltra. He got some sort of a grant as a part of MKUltra for like a couple hundred thousand dollars.

• 1:36:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, so how long ago was this?

• 1:36:32Danny Jones?

  To synthesize DMT. Oh, God, I want to say it was in the late sixties, early seventies.

• 1:36:38Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, long time ago.

• 1:36:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's all kinds of monkey business going on back then.

• 1:36:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah, no, it makes me wonder what's going on now. Like, you know, I mean, because this is, you know, another thing I was explaining to Dave, like, Every single thing that gets them, every single technology, or every single bit of research that gets the most amount of funding gets it from the United States military industrial complex.

• 1:37:07Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 1:37:08Danny Jones?

  They have the most money to throw it, just blue sky, anything, just like the throw, throw a billion and see what happens.

• 1:37:15Speaker 00

  I think that's the case. Yeah.

• 1:37:16Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Like, like even with the remote viewing program that we had in the seventies, like they threw millions and millions of dollars at that. And I think the excuse for that was, we have no, we have, we can't prove this is real with a scientific method. We can't measure this in a lab. But if there's even a 1% chance that this works, and we can spy on the Soviet Union using this remote viewing stuff.

• 1:37:40Speaker 00

  All right.

• 1:37:40Danny Jones?

  Then it's worth, it's worth $10 million.

• 1:37:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Small price to pay, really. Yeah. And if we're doing it, then other people are doing it.

• 1:37:47Danny Jones?

  Right. Right. And that was the whole story behind the whole MKUltra thing and trying to use LSD for mind control and.

• 1:37:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, they, well, you know, the CIA, CIA established, you know, these, you know, these houses where, you know, people would be, you know, lured in by prostitutes.

• 1:38:09Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. And prostitutes were front, front folks, you know, gave people LSD without them knowing about it.

• 1:38:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:38:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty, pretty.

• 1:38:21Danny Jones?

  Crazy time in history.

• 1:38:22Speaker 00

  Sketchy. Yeah.

• 1:38:23Danny Jones?

  That was a weird time in history, that Cold War history.

• 1:38:26Speaker 00

  And, you know, Charles Manson.

• 1:38:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:29Speaker 00

  Like, you know, he was the end result.

• 1:38:31Danny Jones?

  What do you think happened to him? Do you think he was, do you think they were like, because he was obviously, I think Tom O'Neill proved beyond a shadow of doubt, like with, he has brought, brings receipts in his book, that that, that hate Ashbury Clinic was funded by a CIA cutout. And they were doing experiments with LSD and amphetamines on people that were going there. And he was going there, him and his people, him and his girls were documented being there. Even his probation officer admitted he was there.

• 1:38:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, have you seen Chaos, that new documentary about Manson by Errol Morris?

• 1:39:03Danny Jones?

  It's out?

• 1:39:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:04Danny Jones?

  What?

• 1:39:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:05Danny Jones?

  I heard about them working on that. I had no idea it was out.

• 1:39:08Speaker 00

  That's what I understand. You know, Steve.

• 1:39:11Danny Jones?

  Can you see if it's out? Oh, I had no fucking clue this was out. When did this come out?

• 1:39:19Speaker 00

  March.

• 1:39:20Danny Jones?

  It just came out.

• 1:39:23Danny Jones?

  Holy crap. That's crazy. I gotta watch it. What's it on Netflix? Errol Morris is one of my favorite filmmakers ever.

• 1:39:33Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:39:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:35Danny Jones?

  And I had never, I didn't, I didn't even make the connection to him and Hamilton until like a couple of years ago.

• 1:39:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:40Danny Jones?

  I was like, my mind was exploded when I figured that out.

• 1:39:43Speaker 00

  Well, do you know Hamilton? Have you had him on your show?

• 1:39:45Danny Jones?

  No, but he's coming. He's coming next month.

• 1:39:47Speaker 00

  Not great.

• 1:39:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was on a show just a couple of months.

• 1:39:49Danny Jones?

  I just listened to it.

• 1:39:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he's fascinating guy. Super deep into this stuff, the chemistry of psychedelics. He's like a legend. I mean, he's kind of like a legend in this field.

• 1:40:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Did you know that, uh, Errol Morris, he like invented this special camera where, so he can, because he, he kind of, um, he kind of pioneered this way of interviewing people where they talk directly into the camera. Right? So when you watch a lot of his old films, um, when the interview subject is talking, they're looking straight down the barrel of the lens. And it's hard to do when you're conducting an interview. Usually the interviewer sits next to the camera and they're kind of looking off camera when they're talking. So he created this, uh, like a, like a mirror contraption where it reflects his face up through like a tube and then reflects his face, projects his face like on a mirror in front of the camera.

• 1:40:44Danny Jones?

  So that the person is looking directly down the barrel of the lens and seeing his face.

• 1:40:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:49Danny Jones?

  So they're talking that, that's it right there.

• 1:40:52Danny Jones?

  So they're talking directly to his face and they're talking right into the camera. It's fascinating.

• 1:40:59Danny Jones?

  Super interesting guy.

• 1:41:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, you know, I could use a, a, a bathroom break.

• 1:41:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Okay, cool.

• 1:41:06Speaker 05

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• 1:42:06Danny Jones?

  We're back. We're back from our pee break.

• 1:42:08Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:42:09Danny Jones?

  We were talking about, you said, so you didn't do your first interview with Rogan until 2022, but you knew him for years before that. Like, he was even a part of that documentary.

• 1:42:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I met him on my 50th high school reunion weekend. Which would have been 2000, 2019 now.

• 1:42:33Danny Jones?

  Oh, you met him that late?

• 1:42:34Speaker 00

  No, I met him before that.

• 1:42:36Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:42:38Speaker 00

  Oh, my, let's see, 40th. It was the 40th reunion, so it was, you know, 2009.

• 1:42:45Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah.

• 1:42:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I heard about Joe from a person who just contacted me who said, "Have you ever heard of Joe Rogan? He's just talking about your book." And so he said, "I hadn't heard of Joe at that time." Asked him, and I got his number and I called him. I said, "Hey, you know, thanks for, you know, putting the word out about the book."

• 1:43:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:06Speaker 00

  He said, "Hey, man, cool. I've got the book. I'm at the airport. I'm reading it right now." So, yeah, he's been really a very strong supporter.

• 1:43:13Danny Jones?

  Isn't it crazy how he was like, he's been hugely responsible for catapulting this stuff into the mainstream in the last 10 years?

• 1:43:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

• 1:43:23Danny Jones?

  He's like created the whole meme. There's a whole meme about him talking about DMT. Because that was like his first podcast. It's like asking every guest.

• 1:43:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it blew, I think it blew his mind.

• 1:43:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, most of the, most of the people he was interviewing, he would ask if they had smoked.

• 1:43:40Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:43:41Speaker 00

  DMT.

• 1:43:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and that's like the ongoing meme.

• 1:43:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Have you smoked DMT?

• 1:43:45Danny Jones?

  And then he would just talk about it on every single podcast.

• 1:43:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:49Danny Jones?

  How could that not blow your mind?

• 1:43:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's gotten, uh, he's really helped, you know, bring it to a larger audience.

• 1:43:56Danny Jones?

  Hmm. What the hell was I gonna ask you about before we stopped? I think I lost my mind.

• 1:44:04Speaker 00

  It's somewhere, let's see.

• 1:44:05Danny Jones?

  It's somewhere around here. Oh, God.

• 1:44:09Speaker 06

  We have just watched the trailer.

• 1:44:11Danny Jones?

  Oh, we were, oh, yes, we were watching the trailer for Chaos.

• 1:44:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:44:15Danny Jones?

  For that new, uh, for, on Tom O'Neill's book. Yeah, that, the Cold War, the Cold War was so crazy. Uh, Jolly West, he gave an elephant a huge dose of LSD.

• 1:44:28Speaker 00

  Uh huh, Tusco.

• 1:44:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:30Speaker 00

  That was the elephant's name. It was at the St. Louis Zoo.

• 1:44:34Danny Jones?

  And I think, I think the elephant died?

• 1:44:36Speaker 00

  Well, it went into convulsions and then he gave it a big dose of Thorazine and, you know, then it died. So a combination of...

• 1:44:44Danny Jones?

  What is the, what is Thorazine?

• 1:44:46Speaker 00

  Thorazine, it's an antipsychotic.

• 1:44:48Danny Jones?

  Oh, it's an antipsych, so it's supposed to like be an antidote to the LSD?

• 1:44:51Speaker 00

  Well, you know, theoretically, but they gave him an elephant-sized dose, I guess.

• 1:44:54Danny Jones?

  God, Lord, and he was like, Tom was explaining how, uh, Jolly West, when he wrote about that, he was like so proud of it.

• 1:45:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was a strange, you know, time in psychedelic research. You know, what do you think about the current interest in psychedelics? Do you think it's a good thing, a bad thing? I mean, what's motivating it?

• 1:45:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah, right now, you mean?

• 1:45:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, right now. Yeah, as compared to back then.

• 1:45:21Danny Jones?

  Um, I, yeah, I mean, like I said, I'm like kind of new into this world and I, I probably am not the best person to ask of, to get, to get some sort of grounded,

• 1:45:33Danny Jones?

  um, vision on or idea on what, where it's going. It seems to me though, like it's going in many different directions. I think, like I said, when Travis Kitchens came on here, he elucidated it to me. In a way that made the most sense. It just seems like there's, there's so many different groups. Whether it be commercial groups, like, like, uh, people trying to use it to monetize it in a commercial way. It seems like there's people that are trying to take it and use it in a religious way to revive Christianity. There's that one idea with Matt Rescue's book. And then there, you know, I, obviously it seems like there's a huge interest in the government and DARPA

• 1:46:18Danny Jones?

  with that $27 million fund to take the trip out of psychedelics for soldiers. So it seems like it's all over the place, but like, I don't know.

• 1:46:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I can't help but wonder if there's, you know, some undercurrent, some underlying methodology, you know, behind or, you know, your belief system behind all the research, you know, all that's, you know, all that's out there, I think.

• 1:46:45Speaker 00

  You know, has kind of, it's, it's, you're beginning to focus on the religious implications of psychedelic research. You know, because people describe religious experiences on psychedelics. You know, is there a way, you know, to harness that with either new traditions or older, you know, traditions? Yeah, like infused Christianity with a psychedelic boost.

• 1:47:10Danny Jones?

  To try to revive it.

• 1:47:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm just not sure. Well, I think that idea is predicated on the role of the psychedelic experience in the creation of Christianity. And I guess I just don't know if there's enough support. And if it's a good thing, you know, uh, you'd have to be, you know, developed enough to partake. I think just, yeah, you have to have the right intent, the right set and the right setting. Um, one of my, one of my lately favorite authors is Leo Perutz. Uh, he's an Austrian writer and also a statistician.

• 1:47:48Danny Jones?

  What is his last name?

• 1:47:49Speaker 00

  Perutz, P E R U T Z.

• 1:47:52Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:47:52Speaker 00

  And in the thirties, before the discovery of LSD, he wrote a book called St. Peter's Snow.

• 1:48:00Speaker 00

  Travis actually was the first person to tell me about that book. And it's about a chemist developing an ergot alkaloid to give to the masses to bring about a religious revolution.

• 1:48:12Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:48:13Speaker 00

  Very interesting. And this was like 10 years before the discovery of LSD in Switzerland.

• 1:48:20Danny Jones?

  In the early 1900s.

• 1:48:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, there may have been some ergot chemistry going on way before Hoffman discovered LSD.

• 1:48:29Danny Jones?

  Wow. But we've never been able to prove, right? We've never been able to actually prove that there was any sort of ergot in any of those vases that we found in Athens?

• 1:48:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm just not sure. I'm not current on that.

• 1:48:47Danny Jones?

  So the idea is that

• 1:48:51Danny Jones?

  if you look at the, if you take Ruck's book with Gordon Wasson and Albert Hoffman.

• 1:48:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:48:57Danny Jones?

  They're looking at the Eleusinian mysteries and the experiences people are having with this wine that they were drinking that was infused with something barley?

• 1:49:08Speaker 00

  Uh, well, with some kind of ergot alkaloid.

• 1:49:14Danny Jones?

  Do we know for a fact that, is there any literature that says anything about ergot being in that, in that wine?

• 1:49:22Speaker 00

  Um.

• 1:49:23Danny Jones?

  That you know of?

• 1:49:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's medicinal chemistry. I don't know. You know, Dave Nichols would be the guy to ask.

• 1:49:29Danny Jones?

  So like the idea is that if they were doing that 800 B.C., is that are these psychedelic experiences? What created religion in the first place? Is that where they got the idea to create these religions or even have the idea of God? And the idea of, you know, even these prophets or these crazy mystical experiences? And if that is the ultimate

• 1:50:01Danny Jones?

  Creation state of religion and that, you know, say like, you know, even if back then in antiquity, there was all these, you know, these pagan gods and all these different religions that people described who eventually it got bottlenecked, right? And then we could kind of like lost control of it.

• 1:50:16Speaker 00

  Well, I think what you're talking about is, you know, the source of the visions, you know, was it just coming from them or was it just an amplification of what was in their minds?

• 1:50:26Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:50:26Speaker 00

  Or was it coming from above like a objective, freestanding source of information?

• 1:50:33Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:50:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So that's, you know, the difference, I think, between a, you know, top down model where the divine communicates us with, you know, through the visions or a bottom up one, in which case it's just a amplification of what's already there.

• 1:50:47Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:50:47Speaker 00

  Uncovering.

• 1:50:48Danny Jones?

  Yes, yes, which makes, makes a lot of sense, but like, but one of the huge motivations behind, you know, like we said, there's multiple people with multiple groups with multiple motivations to study psychedelics, but like one of the big groups is the, the church, right? Well, that's, I mean, that's, that goes behind the immortality key book where he studies this stuff and he's trying to, I guess, in the, like the beginning of it, he kind of describes everything about the hallucinian mysteries, talking to Karl Ruck and all this stuff. And it's sort of the end of it. It's kind of like, could this be something that could revive

• 1:51:29Danny Jones?

  Christianity, right? Or is this like, is there, is there this common core of religion? That can bring about a new spiritual renaissance or a new religious renaissance?

• 1:51:44Speaker 00

  Uh, well, you'd have to, you know, go into more detail, I think, if you're going to talk about revitalizing any religion, you know, what exactly would that mean?

• 1:51:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:58Speaker 00

  You know, would it mean more art coming out of the sect? Would it mean more, you know, literature or more involvement in, you know, the political system?

• 1:52:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:07Speaker 00

  I think, um, you know, reviving any religion, I mean, what are you going to focus on?

• 1:52:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and and Ruck's big thing is, I mean, so out of

• 1:52:21Danny Jones?

  from my understanding, which take it with a grain of salt, there's a lot of people who study classical times and they study ancient religions and study all this stuff. But Ruck's view, which I've heard through the telephone game and from reading his books, I would estimate his view to be that Christianity and religion in general is the source of just a measure more suffering and more human, some more human suffering and death than anything else in the history of humanity, right? So he's not a huge proponent of the idea of of reviving any sort of world religion or any sort of Christianity. It seems like his view is more anti-Christian than most. I don't know this for a fact. This is me speculating.

• 1:53:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I think it has to do with the source of the information. Is it just from the people themselves or or from God? And you know, like you're, you know, you're talking about the lack of a need for any new religion. I think it has to do with, you know, the unity of a teaching with God. So you'd have to focus on the notion of God, which is a very controversial notion.

• 1:53:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've heard Boober describe it as the most maligned of all words and therefore Martin Boober. He was a German Jewish theologian. Yeah, that it was one of the that it was the most overused or abused word in the language.

• 1:53:57Danny Jones?

  God?

• 1:53:57Speaker 00

  God, the word God, yeah, with a capital G. And and and, you know, therefore the worthy of the most study and discussion. Yeah, rather than avoiding it.

• 1:54:09Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And yeah, also, the Jesuits are like the most interesting sect of Christianity. There they seem there seems to be more Jesuits in like the top levels of society than anywhere else.

• 1:54:22Speaker 00

  Well, if you look at the first DMT book, you know, there's a molecular drawing of the DMT molecule, and that was written by a former Jesuit.

• 1:54:32Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:54:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. A turned to chemist.

• 1:54:37Danny Jones?

  And the Jesuits are like, from what I understand, they're like anti-war. They want to like make a, they want to make, they want world peace. And you know, they, they seem to like the idea of there being like some sort of like harmonious one world society that everyone gets along.

• 1:54:57Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Well, they're studious and more philosophical, I think.

• 1:55:01Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But the, one of the most interesting things to me is

• 1:55:10Danny Jones?

  what the hell is the government doing right now in their research into this stuff that we don't even know about? Because we didn't know about MKUltra until the church hearing, the church, um, the, the stuff came out in 1975.

• 1:55:23Speaker 00

  The church commission, yeah.

• 1:55:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:25Danny Jones?

  So like, and that stuff was buried, you know, with Charles Manson and all that. No one knew about any of that till way later.

• 1:55:32Danny Jones?

  I wonder like, what could they be doing now that we won't find out until 15, 20 years from now?

• 1:55:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:38Danny Jones?

  If that, if we even ever find out, right?

• 1:55:40Speaker 00

  Well, as you mentioned, you know, the budget, uh, that's, you know, the government has got for your research, your grants is, is, uh, immeasurable.

• 1:55:48Danny Jones?

  Twenty seven million dollars to the University of North Carolina to study how to take the trip out of psychedelics to heal soldiers from PTSD and like combat fatigue.

• 1:56:01Speaker 00

  Non-psychedelic psychedelics. Yeah. Um, yeah, they are supposed to stimulate neuroplasticity and neurogenesis without the trip. Yeah, there's, there's one which is a, a compound similar to ibogaine called TBG or tabernathalog. And I think that's being studied in humans now. And finally, it's one of these non-psychedelic psychedelics.

• 1:56:28Danny Jones?

  Do you think that you can get like, okay, it's a super placebo?

• 1:56:32Speaker 00

  It, it could be, and it might be as effective as, you know, like for example, Prozac.

• 1:56:38Danny Jones?

  But do you think you can still get the effect that you get from psychedelics? Because I feel like the I feel like the trip is like the major component of it that gives you that effect.

• 1:56:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:56:50Danny Jones?

  I feel like you can't have the psychedelic without the trip.

• 1:56:52Speaker 00

  Well, I know, and that's still a point of raging controversy, actually, even within the academic community. Is the subjective experience necessary? You know, my feeling is that the non psychedelic ones will be like super prosex and very helpful in most people who don't want to have a trip. And the drugs that continue causing trips will be used for the more difficult cases. Yeah, so you have a higher chance of responding, but also a higher chance of adverse effects. And that's the reason, you know, that you'd only use it in cases that don't respond to non psychoactive ones.

• 1:57:34Danny Jones?

  Have you ever heard of any sort of use of psychedelics on the battlefield and not being used sort of post combat PTSD, like as far as like enhancing people with like visual acuity, edge detection and more accuracy and stuff like this?

• 1:57:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've I've read accounts, yeah, but I don't know if they're really based on objective data, but it may be those are the kind of studies that are occurring behind the scenes.

• 1:58:03Danny Jones?

  Travis sent me an article about this guy named Dana Beal.

• 1:58:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know Dana, very nice.

• 1:58:08Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:58:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, quite a character.

• 1:58:10Danny Jones?

  And I think in this article, it's explained how he was trying to take Iboga from Africa to and fly it to Ukraine to use with soldiers fighting in the Ukrainian Russian war.

• 1:58:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:58:22Danny Jones?

  To give to these Russian or these Ukrainian soldiers, but they weren't just using they were using it as like a way to. Get people back out there, right? Like with their, if they're experiencing combat fatigue or PTSD, they can get them on this iboga or ibogaine and then like turn and burn, like get them right back out to the battlefield.

• 1:58:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:44Danny Jones?

  Or even enhance their, their combat skills.

• 1:58:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think smaller doses would be like a microdose.

• 1:58:51Danny Jones?

  Like a microdose. Yes, exactly. Right?

• 1:58:53Speaker 00

  And it could theoretically enhance, you know, fighting ability. At the same time though, you know, it might also affect, you know, somebody's, you know, desire to fight.

• 1:59:03Danny Jones?

  Oh, is this from the article?

• 1:59:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:05Danny Jones?

  Cannabis activist and advocate for ibogaine traveled to Ukraine to promote the use of ibogaine for treating war veterans. Right? This is all about the PTSD. You can turn sold, oh, he believes, Beal believes that you can use ibogaine to turn soldiers into super soldiers and has been actively campaigning for its use in Ukraine despite facing legal challenges in the United States. And then he was arrested.

• 1:59:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he's been in and out of jail.

• 1:59:32Speaker 00

  Currently on bail.

• 1:59:33Danny Jones?

  So if I was the military industrial complex, I would be trying to figure out how to, I would be throwing the most money on how to weaponize psychedelics. And they've been doing it. I mean, we know they did it all throughout the Cold War because they used Manson, right? To, to basically stain the psychedelic movement, right? They, they tried to.

• 1:59:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Did you see the movie Jacob's Ladder?

• 1:59:57Danny Jones?

  No.

• 1:59:58Speaker 00

  Uh, it's about BZ, uh, which was used on soldiers in Vietnam.

• 2:00:04Danny Jones?

  BZ?

• 2:00:05Speaker 00

  BZ something. Yeah.

• 2:00:07Danny Jones?

  Huh.

• 2:00:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. Look at Jacob's Ladder.

• 2:00:09Danny Jones?

  See if you can find that, Steve. Jacob's Ladder.

• 2:00:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Tim Roth, I think.

• 2:00:15Danny Jones?

  I'm not even gonna try to say that.

• 2:00:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:17Danny Jones?

  Quin selena deal, uh, benzylate, a glycosate, anticlorogenic, clindur.

• 2:00:26Speaker 00

  Anti colinergic.

• 2:00:27Danny Jones?

  Colinergic that causes powerful hallucinations and altered behavior portrayed, uh, as chemical warfare agent that leads soldiers to experience nightmarish visions and lose control of their actions.

• 2:00:40Danny Jones?

  This is, this was like a, a nonfiction?

• 2:00:43Speaker 00

  Uh, no, no, it's

• 2:00:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, this was a, okay.

• 2:00:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, live action, I guess. Well, yeah, you know, so I think, you know, giving soldiers psychedelics is fraught. I mean, what's the guarantee?

• 2:00:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah, what's the guarantee? They're not just gonna all like drop their weapons and give each other hugs?

• 2:00:57Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 2:00:59Danny Jones?

  But what you don't, you, so with, with microdoses, you don't experience a psychedelic effect. But I've never really microdosed. I've done it a couple of times, but from what I hear from people who microdose all the time is that it's, it's a stimulant, right?

• 2:01:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, which is why I think a microdose of ibogaine might make soldiers more alert and able, you know, to endure more discomfort.

• 2:01:20Danny Jones?

  It would be far better than using methamphetamines, which is, which the Russian soldiers are taking. They're taking Captagon.

• 2:01:27Speaker 00

  Captagon, very interesting compound, yeah.

• 2:01:29Danny Jones?

  Which is basically just a, it's like a, it's not a methamphetamine, but it's a strong amphetamine, I think.

• 2:01:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a stimulant, that's for sure.

• 2:01:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah, super stimulant.

• 2:01:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, wasn't that like really an important source of income? You know, for one of the countries there? Yeah, Captagon exports.

• 2:01:49Danny Jones?

  I think it was coming from Syria, right?

• 2:01:51Speaker 00

  Oh, okay, right.

• 2:01:53Danny Jones?

  And Syria and Russia were close allies, so I think they're somehow exporting that, or Russia was buying the Captagon from Syria. Isn't that what Norman Oller was explaining to us?

• 2:02:02Speaker 00

  Oh, well, you know, this, uh, you reminds me of, I've been wanting to mention that, uh, the book, by Philip K. Dick. Uh, the, the Stigmata of Palmer Eldridge, the Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldridge. It's a book by Philip K. Dick. Yeah, are you familiar with that?

• 2:02:22Danny Jones?

  I'm familiar with PK Dick, but I'm not familiar with that book.

• 2:02:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a competition.

• 2:02:26Danny Jones?

  What's the name of it again, sorry?

• 2:02:27Speaker 00

  The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldridge.

• 2:02:31Speaker 00

  It's a novel that describes, you know, like a war for dominion of the psychedelic market on planet Earth between a Terran psychedelic and one from an interest, an interstellar

• 2:02:47Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 2:02:48Speaker 00

  location, yeah. You know, so the one that's made on Earth puts people into like the world of Perky Pat, who's in a dollhouse and you interact with the figures in the dollhouse and a lot of people spend time in that space, you know, with the compound that's made on Earth. And, you know, the one that comes in from interstellar space is totally weird. You take it once and you never come down.

• 2:03:18Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:03:19Speaker 00

  You come down, but that's just part of the trip. Yeah, it just goes on and on. It's really just this nightmarish, you know, limbo state. You know, so captagon, methamphetamine, you know, there's all this, you know, competition for what's the, you know, what's going to be, you know, the drug that everyone is taking along the lines of like Brave New World even.

• 2:03:41Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 2:03:42Speaker 00

  And so.

• 2:03:43Danny Jones?

  The amphetamines, I mean, basically the Nazis proved that the amphetamines didn't work, right? Because they wanted to do this blitz. They thought that they could put their soldiers on, which they did, they put them all on these like super strong Purvetin methamphetamine pills.

• 2:03:59Speaker 00

  Purvetin, yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:00Danny Jones?

  And then they, they were awake for 20 days straight and then they were just burned out at the end of it.

• 2:04:04Speaker 00

  Well, they're just burned out, yeah. It might help for a short period of time.

• 2:04:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know, one of, you know, the towns in, you know, New Mexico I worked in has a big oil and gas industry and I worked at one of the clinics in that town. Yeah, and I saw a number of the workers and, you know, when they started work, they were given a, they were given a, you know, lunchbox, you know, with an apple and a sandwich and methamphetamine.

• 2:04:37Danny Jones?

  What?

• 2:04:38Speaker 00

  I'm in order to help them get through 18-hour shifts, you know, like on a regular basis.

• 2:04:43Danny Jones?

  When was this?

• 2:04:44Speaker 00

  Uh, this was, you know, 2000.

• 2:04:50Speaker 00

  For two thousand six.

• 2:04:53Danny Jones?

  Wow. Is that legal?

• 2:04:55Speaker 00

  Uh, I don't think so. No, no.

• 2:04:59Danny Jones?

  It's bizarre how many people take meth and not meth, but amphetamines around like how many people are prescribed amphetamines for just things that could it seems like could be fixed with other like more healthy alternatives, right? Because like every so many writers, so many researchers and so many like especially kids in college are just like they've been on, I know people like friends who have been prescribed these amphetamines since they were, you know, in their early teens in school and they're like now they're in their late twenties, early thirties. Some of them got pregnant like, oh my God, I have to stop taking this Adderall now. I've been taking it since I was fucking 12.

• 2:05:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:44Danny Jones?

  And they have this just insane withdraw because they've been taking it their whole entire they've been prescribed it since the beginning of their lives.

• 2:05:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, you know, in some of the clinical situations I've worked, I would prescribe Adderall. Yeah. And it would be helpful when it was helpful. This was in the early 2000s, though. I think people are more liberal with diagnosing people with ADHD. But if you have bad ADHD, you know, stimulants can be like a miracle cure almost.

• 2:06:20Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:06:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:24Danny Jones?

  Isn't the idea of it that it basically just like stimulates dopamine release?

• 2:06:28Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. It stimulates the release of dopamine. I think it also directly stimulates dopamine receptors.

• 2:06:36Danny Jones?

  Yeah, because I think I have some level of ADD or ADHD, but like whenever I take Adderall, I've taken it in the past, I hate the way I feel. And I hate the way I feel, especially the next day.

• 2:06:47Speaker 00

  The next day. Yeah. Yeah. One of my friends once, one of my friends once gave me a, I think, five milligram dose of Adderall. And I went home and I wrote after I took it. And it's like 20 pages. It really was effortless.

• 2:07:06Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:07:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. But the following day I read what I wrote.

• 2:07:11Danny Jones?

  No good?

• 2:07:12Speaker 00

  It just was terrible. Yeah.

• 2:07:15Danny Jones?

  Wasn't Stephen King doing just heaps of cocaine when he was writing Cujo and some of his other books? I think he writes, I think he writes their stories about how Stephen King was just doing, drinking tons of alcohol and doing tons of coke when he was writing some of his novels.

• 2:07:28Speaker 00

  His stories are pretty dark.

• 2:07:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. My stepkids used to buy Stephen King novels for Christmas for me. Oh, read this, Rick. It'll cheer you up. Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:07:38Danny Jones?

  And PK Dick too. What, what was he? Do you, what was, wasn't he taking stimulants when he was writing?

• 2:07:43Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah. Stimulants, methamphetamine.

• 2:07:44Danny Jones?

  He was taking meth?

• 2:07:45Speaker 00

  No, no, he wasn't taking meth. I think it was amphetamine primarily.

• 2:07:48Danny Jones?

  Just amphetamine?

• 2:07:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Poor guy. God, he really burned, burned bright while he burned.

• 2:07:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. Some of the most prolific writers were just on heaps of drugs. And one of the, one of the other things that was interesting, um, when we were learning about this stuff from Norman Oller the other day, he's a guy who wrote, wrote the history of drugs in the third Reich, um, this company called Merck.

• 2:08:12Speaker 00

  Merck, yeah.

• 2:08:13Danny Jones?

  The, yeah, pharmaceutical company that was, um, alive and well in Nazi Germany. They had, they were developing, I guess cocaine was like developed in the eighties and they had a cocaine or Merck was, had developed a cocaine that didn't have any sort of negative withdrawal effects to it. And there was actually an article I read, which was fascinating about, um,

• 2:08:37Danny Jones?

  one of the guys from the Rolling Stones was talking about how they would just have, you know, heaps of cocaine behind the speakers and the amplifiers on stage and they would be able to do it all day. They had to do shows, do cocaine and they would never have any withdrawal symptoms.

• 2:08:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:08:53Danny Jones?

  Cause it was Merck cocaine. They were doing the actual pharmaceutical grade Merck.

• 2:08:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, you can still, you know, find pharmaceutical, uh, you know, cocaine out there. It's, it's, it's, um, it is still used in medicine.

• 2:09:07Danny Jones?

  Right. Like for brain surgeries and things like this, I think?

• 2:09:09Speaker 00

  I, I think, you know, mostly for things that have to do with the eye. Yeah.

• 2:09:13Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 2:09:14Speaker 00

  It makes the cornea numb.

• 2:09:17Danny Jones?

  Huh.

• 2:09:17Speaker 00

  Uh, you know, so it's, it is still in use. It's schedule two, actually. It's not even schedule one.

• 2:09:22Danny Jones?

  So like for cataract surgeries and things like this?

• 2:09:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think that's what they, you know, put into my eyes. Eye cataract surgery.

• 2:09:29Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 2:09:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:09:30Danny Jones?

  Okay. Particularly for ear, nose and throat procedures.

• 2:09:35Danny Jones?

  Because it numbs it.

• 2:09:38Danny Jones?

  And it comes in dark, dark colored glass bottles.

• 2:09:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:09:44Speaker 00

  Wasn't Merck making MDMA too? Weren't they? I think they were. I think they were the first, you know, to synthesize.

• 2:09:51Danny Jones?

  When was MDMA first synthesized?

• 2:09:53Speaker 00

  1914.

• 2:09:54Danny Jones?

  1914?

• 2:09:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. You know, and it really wasn't, you know, explored very far for application in, you know, clinical medicine. Yeah, it wasn't until like MDMA psychotherapy became a thing, back in the eighties.

• 2:10:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah, MDMA is another one that I've never tried, but I've heard lots of great stories.

• 2:10:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:18Danny Jones?

  And David made a bunch of MDMA.

• 2:10:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I think that MDMA that Dave Nichols made for MAPS is still being used. I mean, it was a huge amount.

• 2:10:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he said he made a ton, made a ton of it.

• 2:10:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:31Danny Jones?

  And when he, so how did you guys first meet and when he developed all the DMT for you?

• 2:10:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So Dave Nichols made our DMT. I met him at, I met him at the Esselin Institute for Conference that was organized in 85, I think. Rick Dublin organized it. And it was a, you know, collection of people interested in doing psychedelic, you know, drug studies. Dave was there. That's where I met him. I met Shulgin, I met Stan Grof, John Lilly. Yeah. You know, so it was, yeah, it was a place to convene. Yeah. Yeah. The history of MAPS is very interesting.

• 2:11:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:11Speaker 00

  You know, Rick's history. I've, I've known Rick since 85, 84. Yeah.

• 2:11:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:11:18Danny Jones?

  The interesting thing about that article that Travis did, which was that trial that never got, the published, the one that never got released, the findings, the religious one with the psilocybin.

• 2:11:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:33Danny Jones?

  Was I guess a lot of the the big pushback to that stuff was a lot of the people that were doing these experiments were also engaging and using the drugs themselves.

• 2:11:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:11:41Danny Jones?

  And that's frowned upon.

• 2:11:43Speaker 00

  Well, especially for any kind of substance, any kind of, you know, drug with a lot of mind altering characteristics, you know, if if, you know, the research team has been indoctrinated, let's say, in a particular model and to the influence of psychedelics, you know, that's going to affect their, you know, treatment of a person in a psychedelic state.

• 2:12:07Danny Jones?

  So would they would the ideal situation to be have somebody conducting the study who had never done psychedelics? Is that the argument?

• 2:12:14Speaker 00

  Well, I think it'd be interesting to compare and that comparison has never been done, which is, it wouldn't be that hard a study to do.

• 2:12:21Danny Jones?

  Well, my thing is like, what like?

• 2:12:25Danny Jones?

  How do you even have somebody interested in doing that study in the first place if they haven't experienced psychedelics? Right? Like, like, I don't, I can't conceive how somebody would dedicate so much of their life to studying these things unless they had experienced them themselves. It's like with that with any discipline, I would think.

• 2:12:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I think as a result of your experiences, you would be coming in with a mindset based on your own experiences. And if you hadn't experienced it, then you would just be coming in clinically, let's say.

• 2:12:56Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:12:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, it would be more of a blank slate. You wouldn't have as many preconceptions about what was going to happen to the person and how to interpret it.

• 2:13:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:13:11Danny Jones?

  And you knew John Lilly?

• 2:13:13Speaker 00

  I met John Lilly.

• 2:13:14Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:13:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:13:15Danny Jones?

  He was doing, I had a guy in here, Richard O'Barry, who was a dolphin trainer for Flipper.

• 2:13:21Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 2:13:22Danny Jones?

  And he made that documentary, The Cove, which won.

• 2:13:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:26Danny Jones?

  And one, like, one of the top awards for documentaries, I forget what the awards are called, but they documented the slaughter of all the dolphins in Japan. And he said that he befriended John Lilly in Florida. And John Lilly, and this was in, what year would that have been? That would have been what, in the 60s?

• 2:13:45Speaker 00

  The 60s.

• 2:13:46Danny Jones?

  That would have been in the 60s.

• 2:13:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:13:47Danny Jones?

  In Miami, when Rick O'Berry was working for the Seaquarium there. John Lilly had some crazy funding from NASA to do studies on dolphins. With psychedelics and he was like doing shit to their brains and putting them on LSD and things like this.

• 2:14:07Speaker 00

  Well, I think he was very interested in human animal communication.

• 2:14:11Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah, that's.

• 2:14:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, and he thought LSD might enhance that. Yeah, between humans and dolphins, you know, both on acid. They would be telepathic, like we were talking about earlier.

• 2:14:22Danny Jones?

  Right. And I don't think he ever came up with anything, but the fact that NASA, why the hell was NASA funding that?

• 2:14:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I suppose if your astronauts are in suspended animation, you can keep them on DMT for three years and they'd be still be able to communicate with each other. A few.

• 2:14:41Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:14:42Speaker 00

  When I was doing, you know, my DMT studies, I wrote to NASA. And I said, if you want to go to Mars, this can be a long time. What are people going to do? And I thought, well, if they were just, you know, given DMT for three years or like for extensive periods of time. You know, that would make the time go by pretty fast.

• 2:15:00Danny Jones?

  While they're in space.

• 2:15:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I never heard back.

• 2:15:07Danny Jones?

  Oh, God. Yeah, like, because you, you know, I don't know how long it would take to get to Mars.

• 2:15:12Speaker 00

  About three years.

• 2:15:13Danny Jones?

  Three years. So is the idea that when we do Mars time travel, that the astronauts would go to sleep for a large portion of that time?

• 2:15:20Speaker 00

  I think a large portion of that time.

• 2:15:21Danny Jones?

  And so if you put the astronauts to sleep, you could give them DMT infusions and they would somehow be able to telepathically communicate in these.

• 2:15:31Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 2:15:32Danny Jones?

  In these states. Oh, my God.

• 2:15:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:37Danny Jones?

  That's crazy. That's crazy. We haven't been able to get back to the moon since the moon landing. Even, you know, Elon wants to take us to Mars.

• 2:15:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it'll be the same human problems, you know, don't you think? I mean, you know, greed, hate, delusion, you know, we'll do that on Mars.

• 2:15:57Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:15:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. Are you familiar with, with a science fiction writer from England named Dolph Stapleton?

• 2:16:03Danny Jones?

  No.

• 2:16:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, fascinating guy. Um, he wrote a book in the forties on nineteen species of humans. You know, in order to perfect the species, make this the, you know, species.

• 2:16:14Danny Jones?

  Oh, I have heard of this.

• 2:16:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, two billion years of human evolution. Yes, you know, you know, so telepathy is, you know, the final stage in human evolution, everybody experiencing the same thing at one time.

• 2:16:28Danny Jones?

  Hmm. So like, in far, far in the future, like hundreds of thousands of years from now, we would be able to develop the ability through, through normal evolution? Or would this be some sort of like?

• 2:16:43Speaker 00

  It's all genetically engineered.

• 2:16:45Danny Jones?

  Genetically engineered.

• 2:16:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. You know, so one species or, you know, one variant, you know, develops a new species.

• 2:16:52Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:16:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's.

• 2:16:53Danny Jones?

  It accelerates it into this with some sort of AI or, or pharmacological stuff?

• 2:17:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. What do you think of telepathy? I mean, do you think it's a good thing? You know, Joe Rogan and I were discussing this about the chips, the, you know, the neural.

• 2:17:09Danny Jones?

  The Neuralink stuff. Oh, my God, it's terrifying to me, man.

• 2:17:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, and everybody has the same thoughts. And he wondered, he was, I think he was, you know, saying that's a good thing. And I was, I was not so sure.

• 2:17:21Danny Jones?

  He seems to be, one of the themes, uh, what I've noticed about.

• 2:17:27Danny Jones?

  Joe is that he seems to be fascinated of this idea of of humans integrating with machines. And people being able to communicate telepathically, being able to read each other's incentives, motives, being able to detect, detect lies and just know people's automatic intentions. Right?

• 2:17:46Speaker 00

  Well, there'd be no privacy.

• 2:17:47Danny Jones?

  There'd be no privacy. Exactly.

• 2:17:49Speaker 00

  So where's that going to lead? Yeah. And most people want to keep things private most of the time.

• 2:17:54Danny Jones?

  I mean, do you think that he, he thinks that's a good thing? If, if people were able to just read each other's minds and be able to, to detect lies, if people are being deceitful or dishonest?

• 2:18:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, it would force people to get that way. You know, that I think is, you know, the belief underlying.

• 2:18:09Danny Jones?

  It would force people to get that way.

• 2:18:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:18:11Danny Jones?

  Or at least the people that were, that decided to integrate.

• 2:18:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. You would be shamed otherwise or ostracized.

• 2:18:18Danny Jones?

  Hmm. I think for most people though, like going back to the writing process, when you, when you try to formulate ideas, it, it's not instantaneous. Right? Like when they're during the writing process, you have to like sit and just have this flow of consciousness through your pen and paper and from your pen to your paper. And it's like, through the process of editing, are you able to refine your ideas? Right into something that people can digest and understand. And in the mind, it's typically just like this chaotic nest, or it's this chaotic hornet's nest of ideas happening all the time. And if people are able to see that, it seems like it's just going to be miscommunication.

• 2:19:03Danny Jones?

  You know, sometimes, and, and sometimes like, I don't think it would be a good idea to have, say like for, for, for some reason, somebody has some like dark thoughts going through their mind, you know, but.

• 2:19:16Speaker 00

  Some crime.

• 2:19:17Danny Jones?

  That's not their intent, right?

• 2:19:19Speaker 00

  Ah, yeah. Um, I know you, there's would be, you know, like, like you, there would be a lot of self incriminating evidence involved.

• 2:19:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, it would just be.

• 2:19:29Danny Jones?

  Not necessarily so. I mean, also, yeah, self incriminating, absolutely. But also like, just because somebody has a million different ideas. Rattling around in their mind at one time.

• 2:19:39Speaker 00

  At one time.

• 2:19:40Danny Jones?

  That doesn't necessarily mean that that's what they're that that's not. You can't convey their intention or what their ultimate ideas are based on that on that soup of chaos in their head.

• 2:19:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's rife for misinterpretation.

• 2:19:55Danny Jones?

  Totally rife with misinterpretation. I know. And if you compare, like, if you look at just the evolution of social media over the past decade and you look at, you know, how divisive that has been on our society. And that's that's sort of taken that's sort of broken down a barrier of communication at some level to where now people can just, you know, spew out some sort of random thought that they had on Twitter. And people can argue about it all the time. So if you just take that, like, I feel like the next technological level of that would be this Neuralink idea of telepathic communication. Well, I don't know. I can't imagine it being a good thing.

• 2:20:35Speaker 00

  Well, there would have to be a new species of human to be able, you know, to tolerate that and to be able to use it and that it would allow the preservation of the species. Otherwise, there would just be chaos, just a lot of destruction.

• 2:20:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, humans can get along, but oftentimes they don't, right?

• 2:20:53Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:20:54Speaker 00

  It's those times that they don't that can be can be difficult.

• 2:20:58Danny Jones?

  And it almost goes against human nature to want to do that, too.

• 2:21:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:21:01Danny Jones?

  To want to integrate with a machine. You'd have to be it's almost like you'd have to be forced to for that to become something that's ubiquitous.

• 2:21:08Speaker 00

  I guess the the, you know, trade off would be eternal life.

• 2:21:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, you know, that can be a good thing or not. Yeah, you know, the final species in Stapleton's book and first and last men. They live 35,000 years each because that's how is how long it takes to acquire all of knowledge that's accessible. Yeah, very interesting.

• 2:21:33Danny Jones?

  30,000 years.

• 2:21:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, 30, 35,000 years.

• 2:21:37Danny Jones?

  Have you ever studied John Mack's work?

• 2:21:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, yeah, John wrote a blurb for the first DMT book.

• 2:21:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 2:21:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, John came by our place one afternoon, a long time ago.

• 2:21:49Danny Jones?

  What do you, what do you make of the experiences that he documented with all of his patients? Because all of those, a lot of those experiences of those abductions, they seem to be also super similar.

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• 2:23:01Speaker 00

  Compared to DMT, too, if you look at, you know, the phenomenological descriptions, you know, the shaking and the white light and the transport and the beings interacting with you.

• 2:23:10Danny Jones?

  Telepathic communication.

• 2:23:11Speaker 00

  Telepathic communication. Well, I think there's a spectrum of contact experiences. You know, one is just, you know, consciousness to consciousness. There's no stigma, there's no movement. It's just your mind to the mind of, you know, the alien. And there's, you know, physical examples, you know, physical, you know, part of the spectrum where, you know, people move and they've got stigma and there's more, you know, physical evidence. Yeah, you know, so the similarity between the DMT state and the consciousness to consciousness, you know, contact experience is very interesting.

• 2:23:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and, and a lot of, according to, um, a lot of his people that he, he,

• 2:23:57Danny Jones?

  Interviewed and I think, I don't know if he hypnotized people when he put them, when he kind of documented their experiences.

• 2:24:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, kind of got them to regress.

• 2:24:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he put them in some sort of regression. A lot of them, so there's a chunk of them who explained these beings being from like another star system. I think Betty and Barney Hill said it was from like Zeta Reticuli or something.

• 2:24:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:24:19Danny Jones?

  And then there was also a vast majority of them. That explained these beings communicating to them saying that they were from the future, that they were us from the future.

• 2:24:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, that's just hard to say. You know, there is like speculation anyway in Stapleton's, you know, book, you know, that it is a, it's a history being, you know, told to present day humans to prepare them, to help them accept the development of the species. You know, so it's a message coming from the future. Yeah. So, you know, it's possible to predict or to to experience influence of the future on the present. Yeah, cause and effect.

• 2:25:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:07Speaker 00

  Just a different type of cause and effect.

• 2:25:10Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm. There's one interesting story that stands out to me where there was these children that saw did, I don't know if John Mack interviewed these people. I think this might've been earlier than John Mack. But there was this document of these two, this two brothers that experienced seeing these beings that were outside of like some sort of craft or whatever. And they brought them into the craft and they were asking them all these questions and they were, these beings were answering all these questions that they had, like, what does this do? What does that do? How does this thing fly? Where are you from? They said they were from the future.

• 2:25:43Danny Jones?

  And there was only one question allegedly that these beings wouldn't answer. And they asked, what is God? Or they asked them something about religion and they wouldn't answer that.

• 2:25:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, I think people put a lot of stock in being saved by aliens or them helping us out of our jam. You know, and the description of the aliens, I think is the most compelling. You know, but I think you'd want to.

• 2:26:09Danny Jones?

  You mean the physical description of them?

• 2:26:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:26:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. And their presence, like, you know, what, you know, what is their intent? What's their information? And from a religious point of view, it'd be, you know, who do they pray to? You know, so it isn't like, you know, they're angelic, they're being. You know, kind of influence super supervised by something higher. Yeah, they were created.

• 2:26:33Danny Jones?

  They were created.

• 2:26:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you know, they have a mission.

• 2:26:37Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:26:37Speaker 00

  Of some sort.

• 2:26:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah. One of the fascinating ideas to me is that like, because a lot of those experiences also, according to John Mack, is that a lot of them had like eggs and semen extracted from them during their experiences.

• 2:26:50Speaker 00

  Very weird, I know.

• 2:26:51Danny Jones?

  Very weird.

• 2:26:52Speaker 00

  I don't know what to.

• 2:26:52Danny Jones?

  One of the most interesting theories I've heard about this is that if these are future humans and there was some sort of hypoth- so like, just indulge me in the mind experiment that there was like some sort of cataclysm or bottlenecking event in humanity far in the future. And they needed to, in order to reproduce and not stagnate, they would have to go into the past to diversify the human genetic gene pool in the future. So that's why they would be coming back to our time to get our DNA to repopulate themselves in the future. If there was some sort of like, I don't know, global thermonuclear war or something like this.

• 2:27:33Speaker 00

  I know, we should be able to look into the future.

• 2:27:35Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:27:36Speaker 00

  I think we can get an idea generally, but specifically hasn't, I don't see how that would take place.

• 2:27:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah, no, neither do I.

• 2:27:48Danny Jones?

  But, you know, those are all, I've always been super curious to like, what, like, how much does, does like the endogenous DMT have to do, like, what does that have to do with some of these experiences? Because also you have a lot of the people that experience this stuff that seem to have had lots of trauma in their lives, like people that have had lots of childhood trauma report having these experiences.

• 2:28:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you know, there is so much research that needs to be done. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of information out there.

• 2:28:24Speaker 00

  You know, the, yeah, I think when you're talking about the beings, you still need to speculate, you know, where they come from. Are they just figments of our imagination? Are the, you know, the brain on drugs? Or they really come from someplace else?

• 2:28:37Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:28:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:28:38Danny Jones?

  And why do they look so much like us? Like, why, like, anthropo- anthro- anthrop- what's that word? Anthropomorphologically?

• 2:28:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:28:49Danny Jones?

  How do they have, how are they bipedal, upright hominids?

• 2:28:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:28:54Danny Jones?

  That look just like us?

• 2:28:55Speaker 00

  Because they're being viewed by us.

• 2:28:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:57Speaker 00

  And that's all we know.

• 2:28:59Danny Jones?

  Are they making themselves look like that? Or are they really from some other star system? Like, how do they, how did they happen to evolve just like us?

• 2:29:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think it might be just our imagination, which gives them human form. Or they might have human form wherever they come from. Or we can only see them with human form.

• 2:29:18Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:29:18Speaker 00

  When we view them.

• 2:29:19Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:29:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah. This idea of the portal, of this opening some sort of portal to something,

• 2:29:28Danny Jones?

  a portal in the brain, or a portal into the past, seems like the most, or like a magnifier, like you explained it to be, like a magnifier of something that's already deep buried inside the brain.

• 2:29:41Speaker 00

  Or it might be from some other place.

• 2:29:44Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:29:44Speaker 00

  You know, which is the notion of religion, at least ones with an orientation towards an external God.

• 2:29:51Danny Jones?

  Didn't you talk about having an experience of like a previous life?

• 2:29:57Danny Jones?

  Like, having previous lives?

• 2:29:59Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. That's the first chapter in my Altered States.

• 2:30:02Danny Jones?

  In your new book, right?

• 2:30:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's a couple of, a couple of your previous lives. And one was from the early 1900s.

• 2:30:10Danny Jones?

  And how, so, so how did this come about? What, what were you on?

• 2:30:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was on some variant of psilocybin that had been taken by very few people. It seemed safe in animals.

• 2:30:22Danny Jones?

  A variant?

• 2:30:23Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, like, uh, yeah, you know, like a molecular modification of psilocybin.

• 2:30:29Danny Jones?

  Okay. So like a synthetically created modified version of it?

• 2:30:33Speaker 00

  It was a lab product. Yeah.

• 2:30:35Danny Jones?

  Anything you had ever heard of before?

• 2:30:37Speaker 00

  Uh, no, this was rather experimental. It seemed to be safe in humans. I mean, in lower animals. So there was a handful of people interested in seeing what its effects were like in humans.

• 2:30:47Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:30:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So the experience on that was the content of the first chapter in the book. Yeah, I'm in the Ukraine, actually, in the early 1900s with my grandfather. Yeah, and they're frightened because of what's coming upon them. The other is a concentration camp, uh, past life, being at the, you know, bottom of a heap of, you know, corpses are almost corpses. And then

• 2:31:13Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:31:14Speaker 00

  being, you know, born into this life. Yeah, very, uh, powerful.

• 2:31:19Danny Jones?

  How long did these experiences last for? Do you know?

• 2:31:22Speaker 00

  Uh, it was just one afternoon.

• 2:31:24Danny Jones?

  Just one afternoon?

• 2:31:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, with this new drug.

• 2:31:26Danny Jones?

  Both of those experiences were in one afternoon?

• 2:31:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It was rough, but it was very useful, actually. It gave me empathy for my ancestors in a way I hadn't had before.

• 2:31:37Danny Jones?

  So do you think that the, so, do you think that this can happen? Is there any documented accounts of this happening to other people where it somehow connects them to their ancestry or where they came from or anything like this?

• 2:31:51Speaker 00

  I think so. Yeah, but, you know, I haven't, you know, come across anything. It would seem like a natural reaction. You would, you know, experience past lives, or at least you would read history books maybe in a different, you know, light after a big trip like that.

• 2:32:07Danny Jones?

  Are you focused on just writing more stuff now? Or are you focused, are you, do you think that you'll ever participate in any more or get involved in any more of these experiments or studies on humans?

• 2:32:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not sure. Like, I still, you know, consult and mentor, you know, other researchers.

• 2:32:24Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:32:26Speaker 00

  You know, I gave a lot of DMT back then, so I'm not that much keen on, you know, giving people big psychedelic trips. I mean, it's really very hard work, especially back then. It was just on my own. Yeah, I've been mostly working on a version of Genesis, a translation and commentary in the Book of Genesis.

• 2:32:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 2:32:44Speaker 00

  Yes. Well, it's been like a almost 20-year project now. Uh, and it's beginning to take form in a publishable manner. Yeah. It's now 1,200 pages, so I need to break it

• 2:33:00Danny Jones?

  How many?

• 2:33:01Speaker 00

  1,200.

• 2:33:01Danny Jones?

  1,200.

• 2:33:02Speaker 00

  I need to shrink it down to 200 to make it readable.

• 2:33:05Danny Jones?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:33:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it'll be a readable translation and commentary in Genesis, which is a really important book. I think you can understand the whole Hebrew Bible just through Genesis. So that's what I've, I'll start with that. That's the first book of the five books of Moses. It was the result, or this new book is a result of all the notes I scribbled in the margins of my translation of Genesis. And after a certain point, I just had too many and I, there was no room to write anymore. So I put them into a Word file, which was just huge. All the notes were from reading other, you know, commentaries over the years and derivation of the words.

• 2:33:47Danny Jones?

  How do you think these people that wrote this stuff came up with these ideas of these people?

• 2:33:52Speaker 00

  Well, you know, that's just it. They say it's the word of God. Yeah. You know, so there's just no question about it.

• 2:34:01Danny Jones?

  Like the, even the idea of Ezekiel and the wheel and all this stuff.

• 2:34:06Speaker 00

  The wheel.

• 2:34:07Danny Jones?

  Like you're writing about something that happened a thousand years ago. And where, and even like during that time, there's no record of even anybody being named Ezekiel.

• 2:34:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, well.

• 2:34:18Danny Jones?

  Where is it coming from?

• 2:34:19Speaker 00

  I think it's a freestanding kind of level of existence that gradually merged into ours. You know, the world of the Bible, like Adam and Eve and the Tower of Babel and Noah's Ark. You know, it took place, but on a different plane. And then, you know, gradually, you know, kind of interjected itself onto ours. And there's more historical evidence, like of David, let's say, first temple, those kinds of phenomena.

• 2:34:44Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah, it's super interesting, man. I don't know what to make of, I don't know what to make of it. There's lots of interesting theories on, on the Bible and, and what was going on. And, you know, how do these people, these prophets come about and, and relay these experiences over centuries?

• 2:35:03Speaker 00

  Well, and they're very influential. I mean, those, you know, it's a very, yeah, it's affected all aspects. Well, it's in a lot of ways, the foundation of the West.

• 2:35:13Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:35:14Speaker 00

  You know, it's a biblical, you know, Bible oriented West. Yeah. Christianity, Judaism, the Muslims refer to the text.

• 2:35:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's, you know, the oldest one. Yeah. I just love it. I just love the language.

• 2:35:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:30Speaker 00

  And, you know, the ideas are really.

• 2:35:31Danny Jones?

  The Hebrew language?

• 2:35:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Biblical Hebrew.

• 2:35:36Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I wonder, I I sometimes think about like, what would society look like right now if they had never burned down the Temple of Eleusis? And if we still would have lived in this world of, you know, all these, you know, monotheistic religions with multiple gods and not just been stuck to one?

• 2:35:54Speaker 00

  It may be that the one god idea came about because of the loss of the bicameral mind. There was no longer spoken voice, which they may have thought was an angel, for example. And then when all the angels disappeared, they had to make up like a larger god.

• 2:36:12Speaker 00

  You know, to pray to and ask for advice from.

• 2:36:17Speaker 00

  Or to think.

• 2:36:18Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:36:21Speaker 00

  The three kinds of prayer, actually, thanking, praising, and pleading.

• 2:36:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Which I think can also have some sort of a placebo effect.

• 2:36:32Speaker 00

  Well, if you enter into a state, you know, as a result of doing that, yeah, then I think you're more open to, you know, the placebo or panacea response.

• 2:36:42Danny Jones?

  Have you ever studied eastern religions?

• 2:36:44Speaker 00

  Zen, yeah, yeah, I've practiced and studied under the supervision of a monastery for quite a long time in my twenties. I never became a monk, but I was ordained as a layman and was involved in a local organization. Yeah, yeah, Zen Buddhism.

• 2:37:02Danny Jones?

  The, during the Vietnam War, when that monk lit himself on fire, the Burning Monk?

• 2:37:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:37:12Danny Jones?

  That was, I think, at one point, one of the most, like, famous images on planet Earth. It was like the most shared, more people saw that. And that was from, what I understand recently, Zol Tom was explaining to me, that a lot of people think that that was like a political thing that he did. But according to him, and according to other Buddhists, is that.

• 2:37:36Danny Jones?

  Monks absolutely wanted nothing to do with any sort of political

• 2:37:43Danny Jones?

  ideas or movements at all. Like, they were almost like the, like, the idea of their practice was the actual opposite of politics. So what he believes that that Burning Monk was, it was a a call, like a recruiting call. Because I, from what I understand, is more people got interested in Buddhism and meditation after that.

• 2:38:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:38:09Danny Jones?

  Than ever in history.

• 2:38:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you know, speaking of the Defense Department and, you know, DARPA, when I was at Stanford, I took a class on Indian Buddhism by a freshly minted PhD from the University of Wisconsin, who, you told us that these departments around the country were established by the Defense Department to understand Buddhism, because they were thinking, who are these monks that set themselves on fire?

• 2:38:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:38Speaker 00

  And so they established, you know, centers of Buddhist studies at a number of American universities. Yeah, and she was one of, you know, the grad students.

• 2:38:46Danny Jones?

  Right after this happened?

• 2:38:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:38:48Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 2:38:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:38:49Danny Jones?

  Holy shit.

• 2:38:51Speaker 00

  Great story, huh?

• 2:38:52Danny Jones?

  That's bizarre.

• 2:38:57Danny Jones?

  Oh, my God. I don't even know what to think about that.

• 2:38:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a national security kind of issue, which I can understand, but it, you know, had a...

• 2:39:05Danny Jones?

  They, they wanted to understand how you can attain that level of self-control or, or enlightenment to where you can light yourself on fire and not even blink an eye?

• 2:39:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I think it was of interest to understand what is Buddhism? What do they teach? You know, how did they do it?

• 2:39:22Danny Jones?

  Oh, God, that's crazy.

• 2:39:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it's, well, you know, it established a number of, you know, centers of Buddhist studies around the country. And so, you know, there was a positive outcome.

• 2:39:35Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:39:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I thought motivation was kind of mixed.

• 2:39:39Danny Jones?

  I've heard lots of stories of, not that it really relates to Buddhism in particular, but lots of people, like, high up in the Defense Department and, like, intelligence agencies, and even, like, people that are involved in...

• 2:39:55Danny Jones?

  Like rocket launches like with NASA and formerly or formerly for NASA and now for SpaceX that are really into this idea of Rosicrucianism.

• 2:40:04Speaker 00

  Oh, really? Yeah, I don't know anything about that.

• 2:40:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I don't know much about it either. But like the the basic idea of it is you can sort of follow these specific protocols to be more tapped into. This is like a kind of a Jungian idea, but that you can you can tap yourself into this like universal consciousness.

• 2:40:25Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 2:40:26Danny Jones?

  And and and sharpen your antenna or or increase the the the signal of your antenna to some other consciousness and kind of like where you can download information.

• 2:40:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, so how did they do that?

• 2:40:38Danny Jones?

  Um, one of these guys who's who's described in a book by Diana Pasulka, it's called American Cosmic. And he he was, I think, a mission controller for NASA. And he explained it by like he would he would go outside and get the get out in the sun first thing in the morning, spend a lot of time out in nature, not drink caffeine, drink lots of water. And somehow like the idea of having lots of water in your system and no like caffeine or stimulants somehow tuned his antenna. And this guy claims to be able to download. Now this guy has like patents to all kinds of like, like crazy medical breakthrough patents where he's like made a lot of money doing it.

• 2:41:22Danny Jones?

  And he claims that he gets the this information from these downloads that just like come into his mind.

• 2:41:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, well, you wonder where that information comes from.

• 2:41:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, is that just, you know, and like a latent bit of information or associations that he hadn't made before? Or yeah, some or you some kind of download from above.

• 2:41:44Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:41:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, do you think it like I've always wondered what whether it's all that important, at least from a psychological point of view, because it's the you know, the message, you know, the information.

• 2:41:57Speaker 00

  It's the message, you know, the information that's contained in that state that's more important than what the state actually, you know, looks like.

• 2:42:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah, what stood out to me about that is like, it seems like the more you get away from technology, if this is true, if you can tap into something by doing the, by following these protocols, it seems like the, the general consensus of it is the farther away you get from technology and the diet, the, like the, the processed foods or energy drinks that we drink all the time or the fucking, uh, what are those things? Those caffeine pouches or nicotine pouches and all this stuff and the, the, the more you can tap into like this ancient antenna that we have buried in us to get information.

• 2:42:52Speaker 00

  Well, there are those, I was wondering if those ketone bars contribute.

• 2:42:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I'm sure they do.

• 2:42:58Speaker 00

  You might get more fine tuned.

• 2:43:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah, the ketone stuff's interesting.

• 2:43:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:43:04Danny Jones?

  There's also, there is this crazy, crazy story I heard of this guy who was like a whistleblower, who was talking about how he worked for some like secret aerospace, this private aerospace company, where they went to, they were trying to recruit people for some sort of psychic program, where they were trying to basically get psychics into the military and into, uh, intelligence to sort of control aircraft or to spy or whatever. And they found that the people with the most psychic abilities were people that were in third world countries that weren't connected to Western civilization at all.

• 2:43:45Danny Jones?

  And also young people. So like, there was a story that this guy told and he was a whistleblower and it was a account of like two people that corroborated it. That they went to Indonesia after there was like an earthquake and they went there to rescue a bunch of people. And they were trying to find young people who were left-handed and homosexual. And those were the people with those traits that specifically had the highest psychic, or they called it psionic abilities.

• 2:44:17Speaker 00

  Um, well, you know, the one thing like I just moved to Albuquerque last year. I was living in a town called Gallup, New Mexico. Well, in the county, actually outside of town. It was really quiet. Like it just was really quiet. You could hear yourself walk. You know, there'd be a ringing in your ears. Yeah. It was just really quiet. In Albuquerque, the main thing that I've had a problem with is the sound. Like it's really noisy in a city.

• 2:44:45Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:44:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's, and it's more difficult to think. Like I would just be alone for days and days at my place in Gallup. And this, you know, and I could be a lot more creative.

• 2:44:56Danny Jones?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:44:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, productive too. Yeah, with fewer distractions.

• 2:45:00Danny Jones?

  Fewer distractions.

• 2:45:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. And you know, the quiet was like, it would produce a spiritual kind of effect at a low level.

• 2:45:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:09Speaker 00

  You know, just, just being still because there's nothing to react to.

• 2:45:12Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah, I think there's definitely something to that. But, um, Rick, man, thank you for doing this.

• 2:45:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:45:19Danny Jones?

  This has been a fascinating conversation.

• 2:45:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's great. Yeah, thanks. I appreciate it.

• 2:45:22Danny Jones?

  I'm glad, uh, I'm glad we met. And, um, also for people that are listening, they can find your books on your website. Is that right?

• 2:45:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And they can order through me. I'll inscribe and sign books. Rickstrassman.com.

• 2:45:34Danny Jones?

  Rickstrassman.com.

• 2:45:35Speaker 00

  Oh, and I just.

• 2:45:36Danny Jones?

  Oh, that's Amazon, Steve.

• 2:45:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I just joined X, you know, so I'm on.

• 2:45:40Danny Jones?

  Oh, did you?

• 2:45:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. At Rick underscore Strassman.

• 2:45:44Danny Jones?

  What a great cover.

• 2:45:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I barely did that. Well, you know, it's got quite a few Easter eggs. You know, like there's a cat in the corner licking up some vomit.

• 2:45:56Danny Jones?

  A Cheshire cat?

• 2:45:57Speaker 00

  Uh, it was a real cat.

• 2:45:58Danny Jones?

  Oh, real cat.

• 2:45:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And.

• 2:46:00Danny Jones?

  And the cactuses?

• 2:46:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot of cactus and, you know, crystals and looking at the back of your hand to determine the level of your altered state.

• 2:46:09Danny Jones?

  That's amazing.

• 2:46:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, you know, the birds up above, some friends and I were seeing, you know, birds coming off of the wall. And that was kind of scary.

• 2:46:19Danny Jones?

  And your next one is gonna be about Genesis?

• 2:46:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, it'll be a, yeah, that's my hope is a book about, a book of Genesis. You know, I was like, I was debating whether or not to do a volume two of my Altered States because I have a lot of notes.

• 2:46:36Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:46:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I was kind of waiting to see how things went with volume one. Yeah, it's been slower than my purely psychedelic work.

• 2:46:44Danny Jones?

  What is the, what is the best like protocol for you to write? Is there a state you have to be in a certain time of day, certain drugs you like to mix in with it?

• 2:46:54Speaker 00

  Um, usually off your Torah study, like I'll spend about an hour reading the Bible. And then, you know, like if I have a big stretch of time and I'm working under contract, yeah, I'll smoke in the late morning.

• 2:47:07Danny Jones?

  In the late morning?

• 2:47:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, then work. You know, that's for the more creative stuff.

• 2:47:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:12Speaker 00

  And once I start editing, I have to be pretty straight.

• 2:47:15Danny Jones?

  Pretty straight, pretty sober when you're editing stuff?

• 2:47:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, it helps to talk out loud too. That's one of the other things.

• 2:47:21Danny Jones?

  Oh, really? While you're writing?

• 2:47:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:47:23Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 2:47:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, it kind of helps you only think one five at a time.

• 2:47:26Danny Jones?

  When you write, do you use a computer or do you write with pen and paper?

• 2:47:30Speaker 00

  I have a big old Mont Blanc fountain pen from the 1970s.

• 2:47:36Danny Jones?

  No way.

• 2:47:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I write with that.

• 2:47:38Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow, that's cool.

• 2:47:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:47:43Danny Jones?

  Awesome, man. Well, thanks again.

• 2:47:44Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, great, thanks.

• 2:47:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah, this has been fun.

• 2:47:46Speaker 00

  Really enjoyed it.

• 2:47:47Danny Jones?

  All right.

• 2:47:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, great.

• 2:47:48Danny Jones?

  Good night, everybody.

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