260. The return of Nigel Farage: does it matter?

What do Nigel Farage's plans to run as an MP in Clacton mean for Rishi Sunak? Should Ed Davey tone down his campaign stunts? What comes next for South Africa after disastrous election results for the ANC? Join Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell as they answer all these questions and more on today's episode of The Rest Is Politics. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. TRIP FIRST 100 DAYS TOUR: To buy tickets for our October Election Tour, just head to www.therestispolitics.com 🌏 Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/restispolitics It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✅ Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Video Editor: Teo Ayodeji-Ansell Social Producer: Jess Kidson Assistant Producer: Fiona Douglas Producer: Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.

• 1:13Speaker 03

  Botox on a botulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

• 1:58Speaker 04

  Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

• 2:05Speaker 05

  A payday candy bar is miles and miles of peanuts. Salty crunchy peanuts, sweet, sweet caramel wrapping you up with every bite. Enjoy the tasty journey, my friend. Payday Peanut Caramel Bar.

• 2:21Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to Restless Politics with me Rory Stewart.

• 2:23Alastair Campbell?

  And me Alastair Campbell.

• 2:25Rory Stewart?

  And we're just coming in recording on Monday evening, shortly after the news that Nigel Farage is now coming back as the leader of Reform, which is the right wing ex Brexit UKIP party. And he is going to run to be MP in Clacton. Now, this is at the top of an episode which we recorded on Monday morning. So we're just bringing this in to update you on the latest news to make sure that you're not out of date. Now, just to put it in context, Farage has over 21 years been rejected seven times as an MP in six constituencies. But this doesn't seem to have had any impact whatsoever, either on his confidence or his sway over a particular

• 3:06Rory Stewart?

  chunk of the voting public. And Clacton-on-Sea is a very particular choice of place. It's a place that voted 70% for Brexit in 2016. And it's a place where, when I was in Parliament, the Conservative MP Douglas Carswell defected to Nigel Farage's party and held it for them from 2014 to 2017. And it's a place where Erin Banks, who's the funder of Nigel Farage, on his own polling thinks that Farage has the best chance of taking a seat. What's your reaction, Alistair?

• 3:38Alastair Campbell?

  Well, you know, when he announced, was it just a week ago or so now, that he wasn't standing and that America was more important to him and so forth. And I was in common with lots of other people saying, oh, come on, just admit it, you bottled it. And his very good friend Andy Wigmore, who's one of the bad boys from Brexit, sent me a sort of rather cryptic message, I thought at the time, he said, oh, don't worry, you haven't heard the last of him in this campaign. And I wonder whether, I could be giving them far too much credit here. I wonder whether he sort of thought, I'll announce I'm not standing. That way, I'll probably get asked onto loads of programmes like Question Time, which I see he mentioned in his statement. I'll be able to sort of do the rounds, pick up a few vibes. And what he was trying to do, I mean, you've got to remember with Nigel Farage,

• 4:22Alastair Campbell?

  he is the classic populist politician. He is somebody that who sees, you use the word confidence, he can bullshit for Britain. He did it on Brexit. He can say that Brexit would have been a great success had it not been for the fact that he wasn't in charge of it, when in fact, the same as Johnson, it told a pack of lies over years and it's now being sort of comprehensively rejected by a lot of people. But he has that ability, as a lot of good populists do, to kind of say black is white. And I thought even the way he presented the change of mind was kind of, you know, quite, there was something very, very kind of populist about it. So but what I think will will happen now, the media will absolutely love this. They will be, you know, they're

• 5:07Alastair Campbell?

  basically been running the narrative, this is a really boring campaign, you know, Labour's not saying that much, and Tories are hopeless. Farage comes along. The question is the extent to which is he any more than the media confection that he long has been? And I'm not convinced, I'm not convinced. I also think with Clacton, by the way, do you remember I did that Question Time in Clacton? And the audience was 100% Brexit voters. I don't doubt there will be some people in that audience who think it's great, we can vote for somebody that we really believe in now. But I'm not remotely convinced that all of them will. So I think he will get a lot of attention, which he loves. I wonder if he'd actually be quite scared of winning, because then he'd have to hang around Parliament for five years when he fancies, you know, getting

• 5:52Alastair Campbell?

  his rocks off in America. And the question then, I guess, that first of all, for you, on what you think this means for the Tories, and then maybe I can have a little think about what it might mean for Labour.

• 6:03Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. So what does it mean for the Tories? The Conservative Party will be very worried. It's not as simple as saying that conservative voters are just going to defect to Reform, because some of them will vote Labour and Lib Dem, because the Conservative Party is quite a broad church, so there's the right wing of the Tory Party and there's the left wing of the Tory Party. It's also not quite as straightforward as to say Reform voters will necessarily come back to the Tory Party, but we've done some good polling on this, and in the J L Partners Restless Politics poll, it turns out that about 34% of Reform voters would otherwise vote Conservative, and that's three times as many as would vote for other parties. And again, nearly a third of Conservative voters are considering

• 6:48Rory Stewart?

  voting for Reform. So what's that going to mean? Well, it will mean that in a number of seats, the likelihood is that the Reform, even if it doesn't win the seat, will take enough votes away from the Conservatives to guarantee that the seat goes to Labour. How many seats? We don't know. I mean, one guess is maybe about 30 seats. This could be true, and could be, of course, much more if the Conservative vote really collapses and Labour's performing well. I mean, that's what we don't know about these things. But certainly, from the point of view of Conservative central office, two problems. Number one, they think this was going to damage them in the campaign, and they were really relying on those Reform voters coming over, and that's why we've seen increasingly right-wing messaging.

• 7:30Rory Stewart?

  That's what the, to some extent, the national service messaging was about. That's why you can expect a big immigration announcement next week. But secondly, people like me are very, very worried that after the election, Farage is going to spearhead a group of people trying to drag the Conservative Party ever more into the right and into the political wilderness, and basically evacuate the entire centre ground of British politics. What do you reckon it means for Labour?

• 7:54Alastair Campbell?

  Well, he tried to project this as something, again, classic populist. He was basically saying, you, the media, don't understand the people. You all think this is all about destroying the Tories, but I'm going to take just as many votes from Labour. Because Starmer, to use George Galloway, he didn't say this, but if you remember George Galloway talking about Sunak and Starmer being... You know, two cheeks on the same arse. I think it was his very colourful expression. I think what's really important for Labour is they don't allow this in any way to push them off their core strategy. The strategy has still got to be about reassuring people about on the economy, on defence, on law and order and those kind of issues, and at the same time giving hope for real change and making sure the public genuinely understand, one,

• 8:37Alastair Campbell?

  that populism doesn't work, and secondly, that there are still only two people in this race who could be Prime Minister. What I think, the only thing I'd think Labour would have been worried by, from what Starmer was, what Farage was saying, was the vim with which he was saying, look, let's just admit it, this election's over, Starmer is the next Prime Minister. Question really is who do you want as the opposition? That was the kind of the tenor of it. And I think, you know, Labour does have a problem in terms of everybody thinking this is game over, because it's, you know, you've got to get people to vote. So what I think it does, it disturbs the narrative, it throws in a pretty unexpected firework, and fireworks can go off in all sorts of directions. It

• 9:19Alastair Campbell?

  gives Farage the opportunity to, now he's a candidate, but has also made himself leader of a party that, by the way, he effectively owns, it's given him the opportunity now to say, I can be treated like another figure in the, in the election, not on the path with Sunak and Starmer, but, you know, as a party leader. And he'll now be sort of rampaging around doing what he does. The question is whether people believe him. My, my final point vis-à-vis Labour, Orion, I sent this as a message to a couple of their strategists today, saying, this is one of the many reasons why I've always felt not talking about Brexit and the disaster it has been for the country is a mistake. Because Farage can now present himself as something new when he is the guy, along with Johnson,

• 10:03Alastair Campbell?

  who effectively gave us Brexit. But he's not been defined sufficiently as a complete catastrophe for the country for which he is partly to blame.

• 10:10Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, which which needs to be hung around his neck. I think final thing for me is that, as you say, this is about populism and it's about a bet, not just from Nigel Farage, but also from figures like Liz Truss, Suella Braverman and others on the right of the Conservative Party, that a Starmer government is going to seem too centrepiece, too technocratic, and that that's going to open up a big space on the populist right in the way that these governments have in Europe. I mean, they they look to Europe, they look to America, they think that combination of the economic problems in Britain, social media, general lack of confidence in politics gives you an opportunity to whip up this populist sentiment.

• 10:54Rory Stewart?

  And that'll be the bet that Farage is making. And my my guess, you know, my my bet on the show is I think he probably will win Clacton. We'll see whether I write on that. Do you think he'll win Clacton?

• 11:06Alastair Campbell?

  Um, well, let's disagree agreeably. I don't know enough about the the makeup of the other parties in that. I mean, I'm guessing Labour would be second to the Tories. Would the local parties there try to get together to effectively go into a sort of big tactical voting type situation to try and stop Farage? I don't know. But I'll tell you one thing about Farage, I've always known this about you with the many conversations I've had with him down the years, he's utterly, utterly obsessed about media. And it was interesting that even within the the the the speech that he was making, talking about TikTok, talking about the fact that the Today Programme have been talking about reform on TikTok, he, this is the guy who was complaining, the the big thing that he

• 11:51Alastair Campbell?

  seemed to think, underlined the idea of the country going to the rot, going to rot, is the fact that not enough children were aware of the meaning of D-Day. D-Day, which every single year gets massive wall-to-wall coverage across our media.

• 12:06Alastair Campbell?

  A media which he, for which he has complete contempt because he thinks the whole world should now be sort of, you know, cut up into little 10, 15, 20 second videos, as long as they're videos that he, where his message is the one that's going out there. I think he does make the campaign more interesting. I think he does enliven it a bit. But I've said recently, I think that we've had Pete Farage and I'm going to stand by that.

• 12:28Rory Stewart?

  Well, there you have it. And here's the rest of our episode from today on the state of the UK election and then what's going on in South Africa and the latest from the Israel Gaza conflict.

• 12:44Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome to Rest is Politics with me, Alastair Campbell.

• 12:46Rory Stewart?

  And with me Rory Stewart.

• 12:48Alastair Campbell?

  And in case you didn't know, we're in the middle of a general election campaign. We shall be talking about that, first of all, looking at Labour and Tory, but then the strategy of some of the smaller parties. And given a lot of the Rest is Politics is about foreign policy, we're also going to be talking about some of the elections that have been going on worldwide. We've had India, we've had Mexico, but above all, we're talking about South Africa and also a little bit on Israel and Gaza. So Rory, we have done another Rest is Politics poll, the junk food of journalism, it may be, however, some interesting stuff in there.

• 13:23Rory Stewart?

  Really interesting stuff. So this is with Jail Partners and the Rest is Politics. It's our own poll that we're now running every week. And there was an interesting developments last week where they were showing that basically the Conservatives had lost all voters under 65. And, and, you know, we, we, maybe just worth explaining that, that seems to suggest that the only people really voting for the Conservatives in large numbers are people who are not working, that anyone who's actually got an income is facing cost of living challenges and is feeling disenchanted. But there was a hope last week that the Conservatives might be able to squeeze a little bit of the right wing vote, which is this Reform Party that used to be Brexit UKIP.

• 14:06Rory Stewart?

  And that was about doing things like pushing for new national service, triple locks on pensions or triple lock plus on pensions. But the data this week is a bit different. It suggests that in fact they're not really winning over those right wing Reform voters. In fact, the right wing Reform voters have strengthened. And Labour

• 14:26Alastair Campbell?

  Although it's heard say they are, as it was squeezable.

• 14:29Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 14:30Alastair Campbell?

  The question is whether even if they were squeezed by the Tories, that would be enough to get them.

• 14:34Rory Stewart?

  And a third is would only be two, three percent of the vote, wouldn't it? And then we suddenly see Starmer really increasing his position with, I suppose, what's called young, middle aged voters. Maybe this is offensive to people who in their mid 40s don't feel that they're middle aged.

• 14:47Alastair Campbell?

  You're young, middle aged.

• 14:48Rory Stewart?

  I think I'm a bit older than that now.

• 14:49Alastair Campbell?

  No, I think you're, I think you'll find, oh, you are, you've just gone through young middle aged.

• 14:53Rory Stewart?

  Gone through young middle aged, yeah.

• 14:54Alastair Campbell?

  You're 50 now.

• 14:55Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 14:56Alastair Campbell?

  You opt, you opt, you opt out for that one at 49.

• 14:58Rory Stewart?

  I'm an ancient, ancient man. But within that group, Starmer has significantly increased his position.

• 15:03Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, nine point jump. So he now takes 61% of that group, according to this JL Partners poll. I wonder if that's a counter reaction to the fact that the Conservatives have been so open that their strategy has been about saying, we're pitching ourselves to older people. I am actually classified as old. I was 67 last week. I don't feel old, but I resent, I actually resent that sense of a party openly saying, we're going for a particular age group. So I think it pisses off the young, it pisses off the just out of early, middle aged, early old, like you. So that was one, one quite significant thing. I thought the other thing is that the Conservatives, the other part of their strategy, they've

• 15:46Alastair Campbell?

  really decided that the focus has got to be on Rishi Sunak. He's out there every day doing stuff and fair play to him, he's got energy, he always looks up for the fight, but it doesn't seem to be working with people. He is now The most unpopular politician that we polled, he's taken over from Boris Johnson in that regard, and Keir Starmer is by some margin now the most popular. Now, it's not, we're not talking Blair ratings in ninety seven, but we're talking better than any other politician in the country.

• 16:15Rory Stewart?

  And I guess that's, that's the point, isn't it? So in the big context, Keir Starmer's net popularity is not that impressive if we look at elections in the past, and that may be that people in general disenchanted with politics, it may be something to do with Starmer. But what matters obviously in an election is how you're doing against the opposition, and he's well ahead of anyone else.

• 16:32Alastair Campbell?

  And he's now, and Labour are now well ahead in every socio-economic group. And again, the Tories might have been hopeful.

• 16:39Rory Stewart?

  Wealthier people might stick on them.

• 16:40Alastair Campbell?

  Or even, as it happened with Johnson, doing better amongst the so-called DEs than they do.

• 16:46Rory Stewart?

  The more sort of working class pro Brexit voters in the Red Wall.

• 16:48Alastair Campbell?

  I thought the other thing interesting, because, you know, we've often said on the podcast, and I in particular have often said, I wish Labour were more visible in the debate, I wish Labour were making more of the running. But the two people that have been significantly noticed by the general public are, this may be of no surprise to people, but are Sunak and Starmer.

• 17:07Rory Stewart?

  Right.

• 17:08Alastair Campbell?

  And then a long way behind

• 17:10Rory Stewart?

  Yep.

• 17:11Alastair Campbell?

  comes Ed Davey, although in fact he has gone up a bit, and Farage has gone up a bit, but it's very much Sunak and Starmer are out there. The Diane Abbott situation that we talked about last week is, was the second most noticed particular story, as it were, but way behind

• 17:28Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 17:29Alastair Campbell?

  the National Service.

• 17:30Rory Stewart?

  So this is something that I guess you understand intuitively, but is difficult to grasp when one's being nerdy about elections. I mean, basically, our poll suggests that the general public noticed very, very little of all the activity of the last two and a half weeks. They find it difficult to really work out, they like Keir Starmer, but they find it difficult to name exactly what his policies are. The Diane Abbott story, which is this story about it seeming as though she was going to be blocked from running for Labour and now she's running for Labour, which was all over the front page of the papers.

• 18:02Alastair Campbell?

  It led the news for three days.

• 18:04Rory Stewart?

  And most of the public hadn't noticed. The only thing that they've really taken on board is this national service thing. But even that, as we'll go on to say, many of them have misunderstood, largely thanks to some amazing TikTok campaigns. And there was, there was a nice piece, James Merritt and the Times went around the University of Warwick, a good university, talking to students. And one of the things he picks up is many of them don't really seem to be following these issues in detail. I mean, one of the students he was interviewing had picked up on the national service thing, I think about a week after it had been announced, she noticed it was happening. So, and I suppose, I was just thinking about this on the way up to see that if you don't get the newspaper every morning, you don't watch TV, you don't listen to radio, and if

• 18:44Rory Stewart?

  your social media feed is an interest in other stuff, then I suppose it's quite possible you could go through many, many days not really noticing at all what's going on.

• 18:54Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely. You know, we said last week that people should be very, very aware, very, very cautious when they hear people say, and we will fund this out of cracking down on tax avoidance, which I notice the Libdevs have started to play that game. I think the thing we should warn people against paying any heed to are politicians who say, what I'm hearing on the doorstep, or that's not coming up at the doorstep. But I have been talking to a few people who are on the doorstep, knocking on doors. And they, they say, you won't be surprised to know, most of them Labour, not all of them, but most of them Labour. And they say that the national service thing has broken through, people are aware of it, but people are not taking it that seriously. They don't actually see it as a serious policy. And the Diane Abbott thing came up a little bit, but mainly with what you would identify

• 19:39Alastair Campbell?

  as left-leaning Labour voters, in other words, activists in particular, who felt very, very angry about it.

• 19:45Rory Stewart?

  And, and that's, that's an interesting thing, isn't it? Because Keir Starmer is obviously, if you wanted to be provocative to some extent, the campaign has tracked the Tories. He's left very little gap between himself and the Tories.

• 19:56Alastair Campbell?

  If you actually go through the last few days, they did deliberately on tax. They then did it deliberately on immigration and today we're recording on Monday, they're doing it very deliberately on defence.

• 20:05Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 20:06Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, it will be quite an image of him standing up there with, I think it's 12 or 14 Labour candidates who

• 20:11Rory Stewart?

  Served in the military, which is, which is wonderful.

• 20:13Alastair Campbell?

  Jeremy Corbyn would not have stood with 14 ex-soldiers.

• 20:15Rory Stewart?

  No, no, no. And, and it's, it's, it's a very interesting thing this. So when I was in Parliament, went to Remembrance Day service, I think there were 52 Conservative MPs who'd been in the military for some period, some of them like me for a very, very short period. But Labour much less. Labour's now building up. It's an interesting thing. I mean, in the US, people are completely obsessed with getting more veterans into the Senate and Congress. And there are whole kind of lobby groups and funding groups trying to do that. I'm a little bit sceptical because I've got a lot of admiration for the military, but you also want a parliament that's representative of the general public. You don't want it completely stuffed full of soldiers.

• 20:52Alastair Campbell?

  No, that's, that's fair, but, or what do they used to call them, the right honourable and gallant?

• 20:56Rory Stewart?

  That's right. Priti Patel used to refer to me as, she would say, you know, the right honourable and gallant member.

• 21:00Alastair Campbell?

  So let me get this right. So what's, a lawyer is the right honourable and

• 21:03Rory Stewart?

  And learned.

• 21:04Alastair Campbell?

  Learned.

• 21:04Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 21:05Alastair Campbell?

  And an ex-soldier is the right honourable and gallant.

• 21:07Rory Stewart?

  That's right, yeah.

• 21:08Alastair Campbell?

  So was Priti Patel the only person?

• 21:10Rory Stewart?

  She's the only person who in my memory, when I stood up, would refer to me as the gallant member.

• 21:14Alastair Campbell?

  I wonder if these Labour MPs though, that they will have the right, under the rules of the House, to be called the right, the honourable and gallant member for Plymouth, wherever it might be. Fred Thomas taking on Johnny Mercer.

• 21:24Rory Stewart?

  Johnny Mercer, another soldier. Yeah. Which is, I suppose, good, good pairing.

• 21:28Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I think for Plymouth, that's good. And I guess that is one issue that has come up. Both parties now say that they are committed to increasing the share of GDP spent on defence. Both parties warning of endanger, risk, higher risk to national security. And it is the, the fact that Keir Starmer's out there doing that today. I suspect it won't be the last time either. I suspect defence and foreign policy will become part of this debate.

• 21:50Rory Stewart?

  It is, there's two things going on, isn't there? There's the Massive crisis, which is Putin's invasion of Ukraine took everybody off balance. Europe is very aware that if Trump comes in and withdraws, the European armies are not remotely ready to defend against Russian invasion. But there's also the politics of this. Defence is one of the, literally the only last things that the Conservatives have a little bit of a lead over Labour on, and 22 points to 20 points. And Sunak seems to be in a position where Starmer is trying to crush him on everything, trying to take him out on every single thing. So he's, and the only thing the Conservatives will be saying is that Labour hasn't yet agreed to do this 2.5% commitment.

• 22:31Rory Stewart?

  But what Starmer is saying is that he's going to launch four new, fully equipped nuclear submarines, so I guess that's going to be good for British manufacturing.

• 22:39Alastair Campbell?

  Not cheap.

• 22:39Rory Stewart?

  Not cheap, very expensive. And there will be people like me, and actually many members of the military, who are a bit doubtful about whether the best investment are nuclear submarines. Because obviously, your nuclear deterrent is very much the last thing you use. But what you actually need, as we found in Ukraine, day to day, are tanks, missiles, artillery.

• 23:00Alastair Campbell?

  And people.

• 23:01Rory Stewart?

  And people.

• 23:01Alastair Campbell?

  I think that was the other thing that, why the National Service Plan, although, you know, he got noticed with it. I think the other big weakness in it was the fact that serious military people were sort of saying, well, hold on a minute, you've cut the serious military to the bone, and you're now really suggesting we're just going to be backed up by a few kind of interns.

• 23:17Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, and it wasn't, and I think the, I think that's the problem with National Service, that largely the case for it is that it's good experience for 18-year-olds, not that it's particularly good for the military. It's the same with the Peace Corps or voluntary service overseas, where you send young people abroad. It's, it's good for the young people, it's not necessarily a very efficient way of doing international development. Listen, I, I wanted to move you on to something that you've been looking at. And maybe the, the roots in is. To TikTok and social media is through national service because I noticed that there have been a lot of very popular memes on TikTok, which were

• 23:57Alastair Campbell?

  Surprise.

• 23:58Rory Stewart?

  Surprise.

• 23:58Alastair Campbell?

  They went for yours, or he's still a black surprise.

• 24:01Rory Stewart?

  Surprise, exactly. Surprise, yeah. But some of them were also about sort of basically fake news, saying that Rishi Sunak was going to send young people off to Ukraine and Gaza to die and this kind of stuff. And so it's very interesting there, which is that the people posting it say, well, obviously, this is a joke, and it's a satire. You know, I'm sort of sending up the horrible Tories by exaggerating their policy. But of course, the problem is, quite a lot of people who don't know much about it may take it literally. So where's the line between satire and literal?

• 24:31Alastair Campbell?

  I think this stuff's really, really interesting and quite important. There's a woman called Mariana Spring at the BBC, who, I don't know if you've followed this, she's set up, I think it's 24 fake accounts.

• 24:42Rory Stewart?

  In different parts of the country.

• 24:43Alastair Campbell?

  In different parts of the country, and they're fake people, fake profiles, and she's tracking all the things that are being sent to them. And there is an awful lot of fake stuff.

• 24:51Rory Stewart?

  And just to explain, the idea is that, you know, you are a six-year-old, the fake account is a six-year-old female voter in Grimsby.

• 24:59Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 24:59Rory Stewart?

  And that means that the parties who are spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on this will be targeting that voter with particular types of messages, and that's what she's picking up.

• 25:08Alastair Campbell?

  Correct. And a lot of it untrue. So for example, I'm sure Boris Johnson will be pleased to know that the smear that he launched on Keir Starmer about Jimmy Savile is featuring Pretty Large. The one that you mentioned about Sunak, you know, vote Tory and you're going to have to go and fight in Ukraine, that's kind of doing the rounds as well.

• 25:27Rory Stewart?

  Another one saying, Rishi saying, you know, vote Tory, I need this because my mates need more money.

• 25:32Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got to give more dosh to my mates. I think stuff like that, there's one, there's one where he's sort of, he's sort of, it's him speaking, it's clearly fake, but somebody might be fooled by it, where he's saying, you know, vote for me, I'll be proper gutted if you don't. Right? So it's like, here's Rishi Sunak trying to speak like the youth that he thinks they. So, but the thing is, you can, I said last week, If people could send us the stuff that they're seeing, which they they have very kindly been doing. But we'll put in the in the newsletter, you can actually track all of the adverts that the political parties are putting out on Facebook and Instagram. Not necessarily on TikTok, but you can on Facebook and Instagram. So you can see what the strategy is that they're running.

• 26:14Alastair Campbell?

  So just you sent me a couple of your kind of rather pompous, you know, messages about, you know, what on earth do they think they're doing with this? So if you take some of the silly looking stuff.

• 26:26Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 26:26Alastair Campbell?

  There's been these things, right, for example, Labour doing this thing with Rishi Sunak's diary and this very childish handwriting and and also they've been doing this thing where they they have Rishi Sunak sort of with fake blackboards in the background. So quite silly on one level. So I put your point to the Labour strategy people and they say, well, yeah, I get that point. But what the algorithm then does is pick up that they've expressed an interest in this stuff. And then send them, for example, here's Keir Starmer on the six steps.

• 26:56Rory Stewart?

  Right.

• 26:57Alastair Campbell?

  Which then had far more viewing figures and far more likes than they would have got if they'd have just put it out on its own.

• 27:05Rory Stewart?

  Okay, so I think this is a really important when we move on to the Lib Dems and Ed Davey, who's going around basically behaving like a clown. But I do think the idea of how you leverage the comic entertaining moment to then deliver the serious message is really good because the Keir Starmer's serious stuff, which you can see on TikTok, which I think has now got a lot of views. Is really quite good. It's a very short video saying he's going to build one and a half million more homes. And then there's a picture of him looking quite sort of serious in black and white, but with a nice smile on his face. And so that is good. I mean, if you can land that stuff, you're really getting it. And of course, the Conservatives are really struggling to land. And one of the problems is that

• 27:46Rory Stewart?

  Labour's lead in the young people's vote, like eighteen to thirty four, is just unbelievable.

• 27:52Alastair Campbell?

  Well, as long as they register.

• 27:53Rory Stewart?

  As long as they're.

• 27:54Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, there's a massive problem of lack of registration.

• 27:56Rory Stewart?

  So on the surface, though, eighteen thirty four, you're also nearly sixty percent going for Labour and something like fifteen percent going for the Conservatives. So. That basically means that very few young people are going to share any conservative messaging because it's just embarrassing, right? Nobody wants to share conservative messaging. But you're right, are they registered? And the turnout figures, the turnout figures for that group suggest that only about thirty eight percent of them are likely to vote.

• 28:21Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that's a problem. And of course, a lot of the TikTok stuff is, this is not stuff generated by the parties, but stuff being generated by people, is very, very cynical, very, very takes the piss out of the politicians, takes the piss out of the campaign, doesn't really give much reason to be positive about anything. But just, I've just looked at the figures. So the Cilla Black singing, surprise, surprise. So the idea is you're eighteen, the Cilla Black turns up at your party, Rishi Sunak's there to say, hey, national service. First of all, with the surprise of July the fourth election, now it's national service. So what they tell me is that that got four million organic views.

• 28:57Rory Stewart?

  Which is a lot.

• 28:58Alastair Campbell?

  Quite a lot. Seven hundred thousand likes, hundred and forty thousand shares on WhatsApp. Okay, that's friend to friend, as it were.

• 29:05Rory Stewart?

  And the WhatsApp thing's almost more important because friend to friend is, is

• 29:09Alastair Campbell?

  More trusted.

• 29:09Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, much more trusted, yeah.

• 29:11Alastair Campbell?

  But then, linked to that, so then on the back of that, a video of Labour's six steps, the six steps set up by Labour's, Keir Starmer's priorities, went on to achieve three point two million organic views and two hundred thousand likes. So that, they would, they would definitely be pleased with that. I'll say one other thing that, sorry to, but I'm determined to bang on about this every single week, not a single mention yet in either of their social media stuff of the B word.

• 29:38Rory Stewart?

  Of Brexit.

• 29:39Alastair Campbell?

  So if you think of twenty nineteen, all of the Tories' social media

• 29:42Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Alastair Campbell?

  was get Brexit done.

• 29:43Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Alastair Campbell?

  Everything.

• 29:44Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Alastair Campbell?

  And it's now, they've done it, they've done it. So you'd think they'd be saying, look at us, we did what we said we'd do. Not a single mention.

• 29:51Rory Stewart?

  That's fascinating, isn't it? Because you're exactly right. Given that that was what Boris Johnson won on in twenty nineteen, given that's what they were meant to be proud of, you would expect the next election to be, our big achievement is we delivered Brexit for you. And they're not talking about it at all. And, you know, I've been reading the Mail on Sunday and the Mail, and very striking that Their messaging is not about that at all. If you read Mail on Sunday yesterday, Liz Truss, our disastrous 49-day letters, Prime Minister, now positioning herself as the next leader of the Conservative Party by going in the Mail on Sunday, saying it's all about tax cuts. And then today, Annunziata Riesmog, failed Conservative candidate.

• 30:29Alastair Campbell?

  Sister of.

• 30:30Rory Stewart?

  Sister of, in the Mail, saying the Conservatives can win this if they go on small state and tax cuts. But none of them are talking about Brexit.

• 30:40Alastair Campbell?

  Interesting. Well, also, Keir Starmer and John Healy, the Shadow Defence Guy, today are on defence. The Conservatives, their main event for the day is Kemi Badenoch, who, let's remember, is the Secretary of State for Trade and Business. That is her main job. She's also the Equalities Minister. So the news today, leading with Kemi Badenoch talking about, and I didn't even understand what she was saying, but she wants to make a change to the Equalities Act, which she then said isn't really a change, it's just clarifying. But what it allows her to do, as Kemi Badenoch, is get on to one of the issues, i.e. trans rights, that she thinks plays well in the leadership election to follow.

• 31:20Rory Stewart?

  And also positioning herself in Scotland, because she's saying that this will no longer be a devolved issue. So people like J.K. Rowling or Joanna Cherry, who are closer to the nationalist movement but were completely horrified by the SNP's transgender policies, the hope is that that may shore up a bit of the Conservative vote in Scotland.

• 31:38Alastair Campbell?

  Now, Rory, come on, you've got a bit of a beef about the lovely Ed Davey, who's been giving the nation so much to smile about.

• 31:46Rory Stewart?

  Well, it's been astonishing, hasn't it? So you open your newspaper last week, and you see pictures of him pratt falling off a paddleboard in Cumbria.

• 31:59Alastair Campbell?

  Do you think he was doing it deliberately?

• 32:01Rory Stewart?

  Well, every time he goes off, he waves his hands in the air, he pops up and down, he puts on a goofy smile. But I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, until I discovered, reading down, that he'd fallen off the thing four times for the cameras. Then I open my newspaper the next day and he's going down a water slide going yay. And then next time he's going down a hill on a bicycle. And in every case, the basic joke seems to be he's like a kind of sort of slightly incompetent dad falling off. So he's basically trying to replay Boris Johnson's I'm stuck on a zip line moment. And the hope, I guess, is that he's going to get the front page of newspapers. The hope is that the Times or Telegraph or somebody will show a picture of him falling off his paddleboard

• 32:44Rory Stewart?

  with a cheeky headline and that's how he's going to get noticed. Now, I, I, you know, I'm going to come to you because I'm sure you've got a defence of it. But there will be a little defence and then I'll move on to what really troubles me about it. So, I mean, does it work first? Do you think it's going to drive him up?

• 32:58Alastair Campbell?

  I think, I think there's a, there's a real problem for the Liberal Democrats in this election. One, well, there's several real problems. One is that they have not been the third party in the last parliament. So they've not been as visible. The SNP has been the third party, they're the ones that get the more questions in parliament, et cetera. Within the media debate, because our right wing media has this obsession with the future of the Conservative Party, Reform just have to sort of, you know, wave their arms and they get coverage. For the Lib Dems and the Greens, it's much, much harder to get any coverage. So I, I think if you look at what is the serious point behind what he's trying to do is essentially to say, look at us as well. Okay. So I think, and I don't think it's about newspapers so much as getting on to the broadcast media

• 33:42Alastair Campbell?

  and giving them stuff that they can then sort of push out on social media as well.

• 33:45Rory Stewart?

  And are they, are they getting on broadcast media?

• 33:47Alastair Campbell?

  So for example, when he fell off the paddleboard, I don't know whether they were, I don't, they weren't covering it live. But as soon as they got the pictures in, they were there. And then what it led to was Tim Farron, former leader and Ed Davey, current leader, being interviewed in their wetsuits, dripping wet, talking about sewage. Talking about sewage and how the Conservatives have let the people down on water. And then likewise, when he did the whole thing with coming down the slide, which I agree with, I, I got the real Rory of my life, my son, he got a message saying, you know, at least Ed Davey's cheering us all up a bit. Um, but I, the message then, I think they were talking about mental health. There was all about getting mental health support into every school.

• 34:26Rory Stewart?

  Okay.

• 34:26Alastair Campbell?

  So that was, that was a setting of sort of play and that kind of thing. Um, he then had a picture the next one I saw, he had a sort of a funny chef's hat. And you mentioned Boris Johnson. It's interesting how when Johnson did all this stuff, nobody batted an eyelid.

• 34:41Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 34:42Alastair Campbell?

  And he was like the leader of one of the two main parties. So Davy, I think that's the reason he's doing it. And then I think because that became a bit of a thing, Ed Davy, that was how he got noticed. And by the way, on the visibility thing that we talked about in our poll, he's still way down, way down on Sunak and Starmer. But but gone up in terms of visibility. Let me just finish this point. And then on a Saturday, he posted a picture, we talked to him on leading about his his son, who's got very severe learning difficulties and other disabilities. And he he posted a picture of himself just putting his face into his son's face. He can only see the side of the sun and said, this weekend, time off, doing the thing that matters to me most now. And I think that's genuine.

• 35:26Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Alastair Campbell?

  But at the same time, I think the fact that Ed Davy's pictures had become a bit of a thing probably meant that was that got a more sympathetic hearing than it would have done.

• 35:35Rory Stewart?

  But we're not really seeing evidence in the polling that this is helping the Lib Dems. In fact, what we're seeing in our own polls.

• 35:43Alastair Campbell?

  Labour are squeezing them.

• 35:44Rory Stewart?

  Is that more and more Lib Dem voters are thinking of voting Labour. So this is where I'm going to come back against Ed Davy. I think this is a mistake. I think that with Boris Johnson, these kind of ludicrous stunts were on brand. I mean, the guy, his brand was he was a clown and a buffoon. So if you see him stuck on a zip line waving a tiny Union Jack, everyone's like, oh, Boris, isn't that funny, right? Ed Davy is not that guy, as people will know, who've listened to our, and if you're leading, if you haven't, I encourage you to do so. He's actually a pretty dry figure. He's not a big joker. So it's completely sort of, it's it's unlike Boris, it doesn't represent his personality. I'm pleased that you say he's managing to get some serious messages in behind.

• 36:28Rory Stewart?

  But boy, that isn't coming through in the print media. I mean, they're just showing these photographs with jokes, there's nothing about the story. And the reason I think about this is that I can sympathise with this. You know, when I was a politician, I was able to use comic mishaps, you know, my faking a selfie to then get three million views for my argument for a customs union. I was able to generate one and a half million views for stuff on national service off the back of comedy. My question with Ed Davey is, is he really managing to use these moments to cut his policies to, and I'm not sure he is.

• 37:02Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, I think you've got to see, probably, they're probably thinking about this in stages. So first stage, visibility. We haven't got the dates yet for the manifestos, but the manifestos will be important. Obviously, the main focus will be Labour and Tory, but the smaller parties will have their moment in the sun with the manifesto. That's when he will get a fair hearing across most of the mainstream media, certainly the broadcast media, about what it is he's saying. And then you're into the last stage of the campaign. What I'd say is, I think the biggest handicap they've got for them is that unlike the last several elections, certainly since 2010, there's no debate going on about whether we might have a hung parliament. That is the real disadvantage to the Lib Dems of Labour's massive lead.

• 37:46Rory Stewart?

  And you're, you're complete right. That's number one. Number two is they've made this bizarre decision not to talk about Brexit.

• 37:54Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely.

• 37:55Rory Stewart?

  When the other two parties aren't talking about Brexit.

• 37:56Alastair Campbell?

  And that's partly because a lot of the seats that they're going for are Tory-held with a still pretty strong pro-Brexit position.

• 38:05Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, yeah. Although, actually, I mean, if we look at things like Cheltenham, where my friend Alex Chalk is defending a small majority, that was a big Remain voting seat.

• 38:13Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 38:14Rory Stewart?

  I think, and this is why, I don't know, I mean, you know, I'm very bad at predicting the future, but my guess is that the Lib Dems will do quite badly in national votes, that the Labour will steal their votes. And one of the reasons is, I fear, that they're completely failing to produce serious, credible national policies. So there's Keir Starmer in black and white, looking very serious, very prime ministerial, and there is Ed Davey falling three times off a paddleboard and waving his hands around. And I think, if you're looking at that squeezing, you know, why are 30% of Lib Dem voters this week? Going to Labour, which is nearly the double the number last week. I think it's that you're beginning to think, oh, for goodness sake, you know, someone like me, for example.

• 38:59Rory Stewart?

  I'm tempted to vote Lib Dem. I have voted Lib Dem in the past, right? I look at this stuff, I'm like, oh, for goodness sake, I can't really bear to go into impulse. I might actually begin tracking towards a more serious party.

• 39:09Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, well, the point you make about authenticity, because the thing is, you can't imagine Keir Starmer standing on a paddleboard and falling off without him looking really embarrassed about it. He is serious. I think the serious stuff's kind of getting through. And it may be that's what people want. I hope so. I hope that people are actually looking for more serious politicians. I still think there's something very, Paul Johnson, who we should say to people, by the way, is the interviewer this week on The Rest Is Money. Paul Johnson, Institute of Fiscal Studies, he keeps making the point, I think he's right, that even though there's a lot of folk, there's a lot of debate going on, the debates feel very small compared with the scale of the issues that we're facing.

• 39:46Rory Stewart?

  Exactly. So let's just run through some of the things that really could be being talked about. They could be talking about how we could get closer to Europe, do something like a customs union, transform our trade and our security policy. They could be talking about adult social care, which is a disgusting disgrace in this country. They could be talking about a wealth tax, which would make a huge difference to the revenue that comes in.

• 40:11Alastair Campbell?

  Which Patrick Diamond, who was a special advisor with us, was in The Observer at the weekend, very, very strongly advocating. He's now, he's now an academic.

• 40:18Rory Stewart?

  Here's another one that I would love to see Keir Starmer do, and I have no idea why he doesn't do it. I'd love to see him say, this is a government that is going to deal with the disgraceful, shameful conditions for the most vulnerable. Our prisons are disgusting, filthy, violent, kind of inhumane. Homelessness is a disgrace. The very poorest people, let's say, you know, the bottom five, eight percent in our country are living in very, very horrible conditions. What we will do as Labour is we are going to focus on the most vulnerable. And I think, yeah, okay, maybe that's not a big vote, one of the Daily Mail, but I think it's on brand, it's compassionate, something that people could get behind. I've no idea why Starmer's not doing that.

• 41:01Alastair Campbell?

  I, I don't know if you had time to read it. I sent, I put in our WhatsApp group an article from the conversation about the black market that is now operating within food banks.

• 41:12Alastair Campbell?

  Within the food industry, stolen food now being sold into, I mean, I mean, I, I, the extent to which poverty has fallen off the agenda is really alarming.

• 41:20Rory Stewart?

  And it goes, this black market stuff, to return to something we often talk about, is again, an argument for cash. I mean, one of the problems is that people are in poverty, have a lot of different needs, and they're being forced sometimes to sell food to get cash, to get some other desperate needs that they have to face, housing, clothing, et cetera, access to healthcare. So the problem is that we have a welfare state that is not working in the way that it would in, obviously Scandinavia, Netherlands, et cetera. And I'd like to see Labour say, that's where we're going. And, and this isn't, I'm afraid, you know, I, I understand why they're doing free school meals, but it isn't really about free

• 42:02Rory Stewart?

  school meals. It's about saying, here are millions of people in our country. And, and it's getting away from what Labour wants to say, which is the problem, the country is the top one percent against the bottom ninety nine. In some ways, it's saying the problem of the country is actually the top sixty percent who own houses and are reasonably comfortably off. And then at the bottom, a five, ten percent in horrible conditions that Labour should really be focusing on.

• 42:24Alastair Campbell?

  Now, if the Lib Dems struggle to get coverage, then we should talk a little about, about the Greens.

• 42:30Rory Stewart?

  Yes.

• 42:30Alastair Campbell?

  And of course, one of the things the Lib Dems are doing, we, we've talked about this before, they are, they have got a pretty targeted strategy on a relatively small number of seats, in the dozens, okay. Whereas the Greens, although they'll be fielding candidates all over the country, they essentially are targeting four seats. They want to try to get four MPs. And I've been-

• 42:47Rory Stewart?

  Which would be huge, they've only had one before.

• 42:49Alastair Campbell?

  And they got one, which is Karen Lucas, and again, we should recommend the interview we did with her. She, she's in Brighton Pavilion, she's been replaced by Sean Berry, and she has a very, like, she's, her majority's almost twenty thousand.

• 42:59Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 43:00Alastair Campbell?

  Um, let me just quickly run through the other three, because there's some interesting sort of, I'm not quite convinced of the thinking behind these. North Herefordshire- Bill Wigan?

• 43:10Rory Stewart?

  Well, that seems difficult.

• 43:11Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that's a massive Tory majority.

• 43:12Rory Stewart?

  It seems difficult. So Bill Wigan is a very, very traditional Tory MP, I think, old Etonian, you know, very much into cattle farming. I think his father may have been an MP.

• 43:23Alastair Campbell?

  Pinky ring, is he a pinky ring?

• 43:24Rory Stewart?

  Definitely. A real stalwart. He was in Parliament with me, a very kind of old fashioned Shires Tory MP. That, that seems to me a, a, a stretch to get, to get progressive Greens in there.

• 43:35Alastair Campbell?

  Right, the next one, if I, if I say the next two together, because it shows the sort of, the difficulties they might, they might have. Do you know this thing Electoral Calculus, which is a, a site that sort of goes through, it's very interesting. Again, we should put it in the newsletter. And they go through, you can look at every seat and they've got their analysis to where it leans. So if you take Bristol Central, which is a new constituency, Sangham Debenair, Shadow Culture Secretary.

• 43:57Rory Stewart?

  Who you've pointed out as a, a sort of concert level pianist.

• 44:00Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely, cello player, yeah.

• 44:01Rory Stewart?

  Sorry, cello player.

• 44:02Alastair Campbell?

  And she's going to be up against for the Greens, one of their co-leaders, Carla Denyer. Now, Electoral Calculus says that Bristol Central is strong left, with left wing economic and socially liberal views, high levels of university education, internationalist outlook, including strong opposition to Brexit. It is the most pro-immigration constituency in the UK. Fifty-five percent of voters there want fewer controls and higher numbers in Bristol. So that is a, that's, if you think about where Labour's campaign's been coming from, you know, immigration, defence,

• 44:35Rory Stewart?

  Yes, yeah.

• 44:35Alastair Campbell?

  Israel, Gaza, you can see how Sangham Debenair might have a, have a fight on that.

• 44:39Rory Stewart?

  So your point being that Bristol is so left wing progressive that actually Starmer will seem a bit right wing for some of the Bristol voters.

• 44:46Alastair Campbell?

  So, and, and also the last local elections, all 14 Bristol City Council members in that area were Greens. So that's, that's a, that's a proper big fight, no doubt about it. Wavney Central is, this, this is again, is, is a very different sort of constituency. So Wavney Central, it's, it straddles Norfolk and Suffolk. It's characterized by electoral calculus as strong right, right wing economic and social views, high home ownership levels, strong support for Brexit.

• 45:13Rory Stewart?

  And I think probably right alongside Liz Truss's seat, isn't it?

• 45:15Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely.

• 45:16Rory Stewart?

  And Liz Truss has a big majority, yeah. Although I'm hoping people are going to vote for the independent James Bank.

• 45:21Alastair Campbell?

  I've been looking into that, Rory, I've been looking into that. The only people who can beat Liz Truss are Labour. I'm sorry, but it's true, it's true. You've got to just look at the numbers. I suppose if he took people who would never think of voting Labour.

• 45:34Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, that's what he's going to do.

• 45:35Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, well, that's fine, so as long as you don't.

• 45:38Rory Stewart?

  His pitch is he wants to get moderate Conservatives voting, not that he's trying to swing the Labour vote.

• 45:43Alastair Campbell?

  She did a huge interview with her local paper, and honestly, it was nuts. Anyway, basically, she was asked, how does she feel about the fact that people view her as the worst prime minister there's ever been? And she said, I'm not the worst prime minister. Guess who she said?

• 45:58Rory Stewart?

  Don't know.

• 45:59Alastair Campbell?

  Tony Blair.

• 46:00Rory Stewart?

  How extraordinary.

• 46:01Alastair Campbell?

  Tony Blair was the worst prime minister because he gave us the Equalities Act, the Human Rights Act.

• 46:06Rory Stewart?

  How very odd.

• 46:07Alastair Campbell?

  It was utterly nuts.

• 46:09Rory Stewart?

  I mean, to be a bit grim for a moment, I honestly do not understand why Liz Truss is standing again for Parliament. She was a catastrophic prime minister, she was a poor minister. Why doesn't she leave? Why is she trying to come back in again?

• 46:25Alastair Campbell?

  What else is she going to do? What else is she going to do? And also, she's part of this sort of faragification of politics where it's about profile, it's about money in America, it's about hanging out with Steve Bannon, it's about being a disruptor.

• 46:40Rory Stewart?

  And I guess she gets to do that as a member of Parliament, because some people in America who aren't following British politics very closely might convince themselves she's a future prime minister or something.

• 46:48Alastair Campbell?

  All right, quick break, that's enough on the election.

• 46:50Rory Stewart?

  And we're going to be coming back after the break, where we will be talking about South Africa, and we'll be talking about Israel and Palestine.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  I get so many headaches every month.

• 47:00Speaker 04

  It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

• 47:50Speaker 04

  Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

• 47:58Speaker 05

  A payday candy bar is miles and miles of peanuts. Salty, crunchy peanuts, sweet, sweet caramel, raving you up with every bite. Enjoy the tasty journey, my friend. Payday Peanut Caramel Bar.

• 48:14Speaker 06

  This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit, and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love, and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes.

• 48:47Rory Stewart?

  Welcome back to The Rest Is Politics with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alastair Campbell. And the story, Alistair, that we're going to get on to now is South Africa, where there has been an unbelievable election result. So, the ANC, which has been the ruling party in South Africa since the end of apartheid, and which has regularly polled over 60%, and it's always got over 50%, so it's dominated the National Assembly. Was predicted in some of the polls that it might drop down below 50%, but it's plummeted. It's down at 40%. It's a kind of incredible loss. It's lost, you know, 15% in the national polls in places like KwaZulu-Natal, which are really important states.

• 49:29Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely hammered.

• 49:30Rory Stewart?

  Hammered 40%. So just to put it in context, before we get into the micro details, just give us a sense of why the ANC was so dominant, why this drop is so historically significant.

• 49:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, just on the numbers. So as you say, they've won every election with a majority since apartheid, since Nelson Mandela first became president. So 1994, they got 62.5% of the vote. 99 went up, 66.4. 2004 went up even more to 70. That was its highest ever. 2009, 66. 2014, 62. And then the last election, 57.5. So it's gone like that and then like that. And now it's gone like that, absolutely.

• 50:12Rory Stewart?

  But even 57.5, you know, by UK standards or anyone's, it's crazy because it's a proportional representation system. So normally, I mean, you look at Israel, which has proportional representation, you know, parties are getting in with 3%, 5%, 9% of the vote. It's all about coalitions usually, but in this case, they're just blowing it out of the water, election after election after election until now.

• 50:32Alastair Campbell?

  And the reason why it's so significant is because, you know, the ANC essentially was the, that was the body that led the fight for apartheid, the sort of huge heroes of of modern South African history, Mandela particularly, that's their political home, that's their political base. And I guess what it's saying is that the massive hopes that people had for South Africa to become what it had the potential to be, a great, prosperous, successful country, have not materialized. But one of the things that's most incredible about this result, so lots of party standing.

• 51:09Alastair Campbell?

  ANC.

• 51:09Rory Stewart?

  Sort of fifty parties.

• 51:10Alastair Campbell?

  Fifty one parties, I think, in total, yeah. ANC winning, Democratic Alliance, which is seen as the more, the party that favors the white population.

• 51:21Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, although it's a little bit more complicated. You're right. I mean, it's got prominent white leaders, but some people frame these divisions in sort of linguistic terms. So you've got the big, big vote, which we're going to get on to, and I'm sure you're going to explain in a second, which is the vote for Jacob Zuma. It's now predominantly Zulu. The vote for the DA, Democratic Alliance, is predominantly English and African speaking, although many of those voters are in fact black.

• 51:47Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, great.

• 51:48Rory Stewart?

  And then the ANC vote, a lot of it is Kosa vote. So there's this sort of tribal ethnic thing beginning to emerge in South African politics.

• 51:55Alastair Campbell?

  But one, so if you go through the reasons why the ANC was expecting the risk of going below fifty percent. I don't think any of them expected to go quite as low as they've gone. A lot of the reasons were economic, power cuts, water shortages, poverty, poor housing, et cetera.

• 52:11Rory Stewart?

  I add to that unemployment, which is unbelievable. Official unemployment figures, thirty seven percent, that's official. I mean, underemployment, people out of the workforce, much higher, I mean, it's unimachable, really, yeah.

• 52:22Alastair Campbell?

  But the other big thing was corruption. And yet, the big gainer out of this election seems to be Jacob Zuma. Probably the most corrupt of all the presidents that they've had when he was president. With all sorts of investigations going on to him, past, present and future. And yet, he has the potential to be something of a kingmaker. Although the ANC are making clear that one of, one of his party, the MK, one of their central demands is that his successor, Cyril Ramaphosa, has to go. And the ANC say that is not happening.

• 52:59Rory Stewart?

  So coming back to the maths of the thing. In order to be president of South Africa, you need the majority of the votes in the National Assembly.

• 53:08Alastair Campbell?

  Yes, the president is not directly elected. You elect the assembly and they, they decide who the president is.

• 53:13Rory Stewart?

  So you need more than fifty percent. The ANC's dropped down to forty percent. So they've got three options. They could try to go with the smaller parties and that will involve relying on the EFF, which is Julius Malema. Walks around the Red Beret, kind of proto Marxist, nationalization of mines, confiscation of land, this kind of stuff. But even that. Because the EFF actually didn't perform very well.

• 53:36Alastair Campbell?

  They didn't do, they were, they were hit by MK as well.

• 53:38Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, so they got down to maybe nine percent. So it's still not quite enough. That would only forty nine percent. So they'd have to bring in some other small parties as well. Or they can try to reform the old ANC coalition, which means bringing in the EFF and bringing in Jacob Zuma. And Jacob Zuma got fifteen percent of the vote, so a big, big vote coming in behind, and that would push them above. Third option, which of course is the one more appealing to people like me, who are more sort of on the centre right and who want more kind of technocratic economic policies would be to get.

• 54:10Alastair Campbell?

  Grand coalition.

• 54:10Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, oh, and get together with the Democratic Alliance. And that, again, because Democratic Alliance got twenty two percent of the vote, would put them comfortably into a majority, but would really alienate a lot of the ANC base who perceive the DA as being a white party, too much of a right wing party. So all to play for. People like me, massive economic optimism if they make a coalition with the DA. Worst case scenario, coalition with Jacob Zuma. Because Zuma is a really, as you say, not just very corrupt, you know, people have heard about the Gupta scandal maybe, where credible, astonishing deals being put together with this.

• 54:47Alastair Campbell?

  It's literally called state capture. It's been, it's been identified as state capture.

• 54:51Rory Stewart?

  And this is, this was a, an Indian business family that with billions to play, just sort of taking over whole bits of government contracting procurement. But he's also somebody who's a classic populist. He is rejecting the election result. Claims he actually got two thirds of the vote and that the fifteen percent is fraud.

• 55:11Alastair Campbell?

  He's even saying that it was rigged in the, in those areas where he won by a mile. So, no, and he's got, he's got, there are certain Trumpian elements, not just to sort of calling out the, the result, but also some of the scandals he's involved in the past, where he says his case has been rigged against him. I mean, we're seeing a, a pattern here. But, so the, the, the interesting, I, I looked at some of the South African media yesterday, I think it was the Sunday Times, their headline was beaten ANC pushes for GNU, Government of National Unity. Now, of course, that wouldn't be the first time, because if you go back to the very start, there was a, a government of national unity put together with Mandela and de Klerk. And it was one of the reasons why they got a Nobel Peace Prize, that they led this new South Africa together. They later.

• 55:56Alastair Campbell?

  De Klerk later left and the ANC then governed on its own. So it's not impossible. I think you're right that the international community is probably thinking, come on, go for it. But domestically, that's very, very difficult for the ANC.

• 56:08Rory Stewart?

  And I think, just before we finish, just stepping back for a moment, in the context of what is really a year of elections, a year of fighting, country by country, basically a fight between progressive liberals and populists. South Africa is a really important bellwether. Largest economy in Africa, housing millions of refugees, probably the most educated population in Africa, the most technologically advanced country, one of the BRICS, along with Brazil, Russia, India, China. And this is happening at the same time when it looks like Narendra Modi, the populist in India, is about to win. So this is really important,

• 56:52Rory Stewart?

  really important, not just for South Africa, but for the whole of Africa, and actually for geopolitics in general.

• 56:57Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, just to give, on the Trumpian theme, just to give you a few things that went on. So the ANC forced out Zuma in 2018 under threat of impeachment. He was jailed for refusing to testify in a judicial panel on corruption, went into jail, came out after two months, released on medical grounds, acquitted of rape in 2006, but still facing charges about bribes from weapons dealers. And all along, everything that's thrown at him, it's a political witch hunt.

• 57:28Rory Stewart?

  And he can't sit in the National Assembly. So he's, you know, he's led his party to a pretty impressive electoral feat. And one of the things he's done, he's basically collapsed the IFP, which was Mnangutu Butilezi's Zulu Party, which was quite an important player in South Africa.

• 57:44Alastair Campbell?

  I think they were part of that first coalition.

• 57:46Rory Stewart?

  South African politics, because he's taken the Zulu vote away. And so I think the IFP, now down at about three and a half percent of the vote, may be an important part of a coalition if you brought the DAN, this more sort of centre-right party, because it would give a bit more of a flavour of a coalition, but it ceased to be a major political force because of this election. Yeah.

• 58:08Alastair Campbell?

  One final point for me is turnout, and this is something we're going to see, and I fear could happen in our election as well. I hope not, but turnout very, a lot lower than it had been, which again reflecting not just the decline, but a decline in the belief in politics that politics can do stuff at all. And I must say, I think, I think, you know, I hate the old cliche, turning, turning in the grave, but I'd love to be able to know what Mandela would think about what's going on. Because when you think about the hope that he represented to the world, I have to tell you, there's only two famous people with whom I've been photographed where I have those pictures on my wall in my office. One is Mandela, and the other is?

• 58:45Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, the other is that Argentinian footballer.

• 58:47Alastair Campbell?

  Correct, correct, Diego Baratona. So they both begin with M at the end of the day. But he would be, I think, pretty heartbroken by this, even though, I guess, for most political parties, forty percent in a general election, you'd say that was, I mean, if Keir Starmer gets forty percent, he's going to be quite happy.

• 59:03Rory Stewart?

  Be pretty pleased, yeah.

• 59:04Alastair Campbell?

  But I think that for the ANC, given that the way that the history of that country could have gone.

• 59:11Rory Stewart?

  It's, it's very sad. And of course, it raises the, the fear, of course, amongst many South Africans, that just the structural problems are so deep. You know, people hoped that getting rid of Zuma last time, bringing in Sir Ramaphosa, would turn this all around. It hasn't turned it all around. And people are pretty gloomy, I guess.

• 59:27Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 59:28Rory Stewart?

  And a big thank you to, to my friend Greg Mills, who's patiently trying to explain and keep me up to date on South African politics, and also Joshua Not, who we've talked about before, who writes the newsletter. And we're getting on now to the subject of Israel Gaza. And we're going to start with Biden's peace plan. So Biden's peace plan, just quick, quick summary for you. Three parts. First part is supposed to be a full and complete ceasefire for six weeks, Israel withdrawing troops from densely populated areas, and Hamas releasing elderly hostages and women. Second stage is release of all remaining hostages, including soldiers, with a total withdrawal from Israel. Third phase, return of hostage remains and

• 1:00:12Rory Stewart?

  money going into reconstructing Gaza. This was brought together in Paris, negotiation between Bill Burns, who's the head of the CIA, David Baner, who's the head of Mossad, and the Qatari Foreign Minister, who we both know Sheikh Mohammed, who discussed this. This is not very, very different, actually, from the deal that was supposed to be put together in Cairo a couple of months ago. It seemed as though, because the head of Mossad was there, that Israel had approved this plan, but rather curiously, although it was meant to be an Israeli peace plan, it was not announced by Israel, it was announced by Joe Biden.

• 1:00:47Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, there've been so many, not just in this recent episode of the Israel Gaza story, but over decades, there have been so many attempts, new dawns, false starts. But it was, I think, significant that Joe Biden felt able to go out and do that address that he did.

• 1:01:11Rory Stewart?

  And say that it was an Israeli.

• 1:01:12Alastair Campbell?

  And say that it was an Israeli plan. I cannot believe that he would have done that without the Israelis knowing, seeing every word that he was intending to say. He didn't take any questions. So it was very much, this is a script. But you're right, that my immediate thought was, well, what's going to count here is the reaction of the Israelis and Hamas.

• 1:01:34Rory Stewart?

  Right.

• 1:01:35Alastair Campbell?

  And the Israeli reaction has been ambiguous, to say the least. You've had nothing clear and specific. You've certainly had no acceptance. You haven't had from Netanyahu's mouth, this is an Israeli plan. So I think what's happened is that he's seeing how the reaction is elsewhere, which has been interesting. So you've got, the problem he has, as everybody knows this by now, I'm sure, is that he's got this coalition government in which an awful lot of power rests with the finance minister, Smotrich, and the national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gavir. These are two different parties, but similar outlook, and

• 1:02:15Alastair Campbell?

  they would be defined as extreme. They're extreme. And when Netanyahu says that the war aim is to destroy Hamas, which a lot of his own people have said, that's an over-exaggerated objective to set, that is what these two are saying has to happen.

• 1:02:33Rory Stewart?

  The quote from Smotrich is that there to be no half-measures, and his quote is, the total and utter destruction, not of Hamas, but of Rafa.

• 1:02:40Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Rory Stewart?

  Total and utter destruction of Rafa.

• 1:02:42Alastair Campbell?

  Which is, now, so into that mix, you have, we have the issue of Benny Gantz, that we talked about before, a member of the war cabinet, who's been making noises about walking away. That would be less politically significant. Than Smotrich and Ben Gavir because Benny Gantz is a member of the war cabinet, not necessarily part of the governing coalition. But you've now got opposition leader Yahya Lapid essentially saying, if they do do that, we will support you on this plan. So in the end, this is going to be a political judgment as much as a security judgment.

• 1:03:15Rory Stewart?

  It seems as though Netanyahu initially rejected the plan, then the majority of his cabinet pushed him to accept it. And then when it's come out, I mean, he used the word in his reaction, he, and he's a very obviously incredibly experienced politician, he managed to produce the word a non-starter. So is this not a bit of a kind of slap in the face for Biden? I mean, it doesn't make him look very strong to come out, make us a big announcement. I think it was in this kind of huge room in the White House. This is my big peace plan for the Middle East. And remember, it's not a peace plan, really.

• 1:03:51Alastair Campbell?

  It was also the other point to emphasize, it was happening whilst America was utterly consumed with the fallout from Trump's trial.

• 1:03:58Rory Stewart?

  Right.

• 1:03:58Alastair Campbell?

  So he's coming out as serious, big issues, leader of the free world, as it were.

• 1:04:04Rory Stewart?

  Big statesman thing, but it's actually quite modest. I mean, this isn't the two-state solution. This isn't the future for how Israel deals with Palestine. This is just get the hostages back, stop the bombing, put a bit of reconstruction money in. So shouldn't be that controversial. He, he lines it up, it seems with Israel. He announces it. And then suddenly Netanyahu comes out and says it's a non-starter.

• 1:04:26Alastair Campbell?

  Did he say that himself or was that?

• 1:04:28Rory Stewart?

  He put, yeah, the phrase non-starter is in part of Netanyahu's response. Yeah.

• 1:04:32Alastair Campbell?

  Right. And then, and then.

• 1:04:33Rory Stewart?

  And so that of course gets picked up by the press, but just, I mean, the, the other thing, of course, which you, you know, we, we've talked about a little bit in the background is that Biden said that a red line was Israel going into Rafa. You know, Rafa is the area where they're now conducting military operations. And so the White House has been falling over backwards to say, well, when we said that, we meant not going into population centers. Then Israel went to population centers. Then they're like, oh, well, we meant no major operations in population centers. Meanwhile, the operation said, and the result is that Israel has been dropping American bombs, including a bomb that sparked this fire, basically in a, in a refugee camp.

• 1:05:13Rory Stewart?

  And Biden now looks as though he sets a red line, says you won't go into Rafa, Israel goes into Rafa. He says, here's a peace plan, we've agreed. And Israel basically humiliates him and rejects the peace plan. And, and somebody I was talking to on the ground said that for many Palestinians and people in the region, they're beginning to feel that these operations in Rafa almost have nothing to do with Palestinians or Hamas. It's some game between Israel and the United States, or some game just to do with propping up Netanyahu's coalition by sounding as though he can be aggressive towards Biden. But it can't, I suppose what I was trying to get to is it can't make Biden look strong, this.

• 1:05:50Alastair Campbell?

  No, because I suppose it makes him, it shows that he's just not giving up at trying to get this thing in the right place. It shows that he's prepared to take risks. He will know better than anybody that dealing with Netanyahu is a very, very tricky thing to do. It's not beyond Netanyahu to say one thing to his face and then say something else. I think, you know, we've had experience of that. I think the other thing that's, that's been interesting has been the, the extent to which the issue of the hostages has not gone away, isn't going away. There was actually a big march in London yesterday, and there was a big march in Washington with the same slogan, bring them home now. And I think there is a feeling that Netanyahu isn't really as focused on that as he should be

• 1:06:35Alastair Campbell?

  because he's so concerned about keeping this coalition together with the right, the hard right being in such an extreme position. I actually, we know somebody who's, who's got a relative who's involved in the hostage situation and who said that at a meeting that Netanyahu and others had with the, some of the families of the hostages, one of them came out saying, God, it's like we're the problem. It was always like they were saying, you know, why are you making our lives so difficult when we're trying to destroy Hamas? And, you know, I think there's, there's the extent to which this is now driven by the politics and the political survival of Netanyahu is not to be underestimated.

• 1:07:14Rory Stewart?

  Stepping back again for a moment to remind people about what's, what's happening in Gaza itself. So, you know, well over 30,000 people have now been killed. People will be aware that the operations moved down to Rafa, that the Israelis took over the strip that divides Gaza from Egypt. And the humanitarian crisis has shifted again. So another million people have been displaced. I was talking early this morning to somebody who's working on the humanitarian convoys. It's a very nasty picture. There have been changes. I mean, there have been moments of improvement, moments of getting worse, moments of improving. And I don't want to go through all the details the last few weeks. Sometimes more trucks get through the crossings, sometimes fewer. The crossings have to change. But the basic story is

• 1:07:59Rory Stewart?

  that it's incredibly difficult for humanitarian agencies to deliver basic support to people. Much more difficult than I'm used to in other situations. You know, I was a DIFID minister. I was in Somalia, South Sudan, DRC. In these countries, broadly speaking, the aid agencies can get stuff across borders. But these borders are completely controlled by the Israeli army, with the exception of this American floating pier, which has been damaged by storms. So it's all to do with who Israel will let through. And, you know,

• 1:08:33Alastair Campbell?

  And the Egyptians, Egyptians have got a role in this.

• 1:08:35Rory Stewart?

  And the Egyptians also got a role in this. But primarily, it's Israeli security checks. And this means that we are in a situation in which everything is going wrong in different ways. So, you know, sometimes the trucks get through, but then you can't get the fuel through. You can't get the generators through, or you get your humanitarian staff on the ground. But then the security risk means they have to withdraw, or you don't have the cash, or you can't get the road access to get in. So there's all these moving parts happening again and again. Currently, there are about 3,000 children suffering from acute malnutrition. Of children under five, the majority of them are going days without eating. We've had situations of babies under one dying from lack of food. We've had

• 1:09:19Rory Stewart?

  children, early teens dying from lack. I mean, this is stuff where, you know, I'm used to in Somalia. You know, I've seen mothers in Somalia walking in with babies on their chests and that infant dying because they can't get plumpy nut. But for this to happen. In a middle income country, on the margins of one of the wealthiest countries on earth, is beyond imagining.

• 1:09:40Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, and also, it's hard for us, I mean, it's, you know, you can, it's great, you can talk to some of the people there and we can, we can have conversations and the media can do a job up to a point, but it's impossible genuinely to know what's happening on the ground because there's no free access to international media at all. Maybe we, we should, we should close on this. I've just, I've just looked up the, the reactions of Ben Gavir and Smotrich. So Smotrich said, as soon as the plan was announced, he would not be part of a government that agrees to the proposed outline and ends the war without destroying Hamas. Ben Gavir said, this deal means the end of the war and the abandonment of the goal to destroy Hamas. It is reckless, which constitutes a victory for terrorism

• 1:10:24Alastair Campbell?

  and a security threat to the state of Israel, and said he would dissolve the government rather than agree to the proposal. So that's the, that's the choice that Netanyahu and our basis.

• 1:10:31Rory Stewart?

  In other words, Smotrich and Ben Gavir will not accept any ceasefire because any ceasefire involves accepting that their strategy, which I believe makes absolutely no sense, this fantasy that somehow through military operations you can eliminate Hamas, just doesn't stack up. I mean, there's no military example anywhere in the world that this kind of stuff allows you to eliminate a terrorist group. But they are continuing this strategy without an end because Hamas will never be crippled through these kind of operations. And of course, they're continuing it with the full support of American hardware, American weapons,

• 1:11:09Rory Stewart?

  American money. So whatever Biden is saying, in effect, America is agreeing with the Israeli claim that it's somehow there is a military solution to Hamas.

• 1:11:20Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, Roy, well, that's it for this week. I suspect we'll be having another busy week. We're, we're recording this Monday. It's going to be out Tuesday. Tomorrow evening, we'll be watching the TV debate between Rishi Sunak and Keir Star, but then doing an instant podcast live. I also want to point our listeners to listen to the interview we've done with David Blunkett.

• 1:11:40Rory Stewart?

  It's great.

• 1:11:41Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Rory Stewart?

  I love that. I thought he was a real star.

• 1:11:44Alastair Campbell?

  Do you wish he was still involved and standing?

• 1:11:46Rory Stewart?

  I do. I was impressed by David Blunkett.

• 1:11:48Alastair Campbell?

  He's great. Yes, we'll do that. And also, don't forget, if you haven't caught up already with our American colleagues and partners and friends, Anthony Scaramucci and Katty Kay, the rest is politics, US. So all that and more to come.

• 1:12:01Rory Stewart?

  And before we go, little plug, this is the week where the paperback edition of my book, Politics on the Edge, is published. Part of a four-part series now with the other books that I've published, and I'm doing a paperback tour. So going to be doing London Palladium, travelling to Bath, travelling to Edinburgh, travelling to Oxford, travelling to Cambridge. Come along, please, hear me live, talk about the elections, and please, if you get a chance, buy a copy of the paperback edition.

• 1:12:24Alastair Campbell?

  Okay. And if we're in plugging mode, Rory, I'm leaving this studio shortly to go and record the audio of my next two books out shortly, where I shall be more positive about politics than your paperback.

• 1:12:35Rory Stewart?

  That's right. I'm more about the grim reality when you vote, and you're more about the positive dream.

• 1:12:40Alastair Campbell?

  The populist fantasy. All right, Rory, see you soon.

• 1:12:44Rory Stewart?

  See you soon.

• 1:13:35Speaker 07

  We just moved into our new house and I didn't realize just how close we were to the neighbors. That's when my friend told me about Blinds.com.

• 1:13:43Speaker 08

  Blinds.com isn't a medication, but it can improve how you feel about your home. Customers who shop at Blinds.com experience excellent customer service, from consultation to installation. Side effects include increased privacy and better sleep. Talk to your partner today and see if Blinds.com is right for you. Visit Blinds.com to order your free samples.