Uncovering Phil Mickelson's Misconduct Allegations, with Alan Shipnuck

After months of rumors, journalist Alan Shipnuck investigates why Phil Mickelson has basically vanished from the LIV Golf Tour — and social media. Leading us down a rabbit hole of hidden misconduct claims and exits from three different golf clubs. Not to mention 19 sources, an off-shore oil pipeline and an ex-friend's ex-wife: Ashley Perez. Read Alan Shipnuck’s reporting at Skratch Golf: https://www.skratch.golf/news/pro-golf/phil-mickelson-misconduct-women-madison-club-bridges-farms-exits Read Phil Mickelson’s spokesperson’s statement: https://x.com/_davidrumsey/status/2072655169792225420?s=46 Read Skratch’s response: https://x.com/_davidrumsey/status/2072696394997981241?s=46 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today, we're gonna find out what this sound is.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  It's a nude selfie. He's fully erect. He's flexing a bicep, which to me is the best part of the whole image.

• 0:13Pablo Torre?

  Right after this.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone, and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them.

• 0:30Speaker 03

  Everybody, listen up.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 0:49Pablo Torre?

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• 1:31Pablo Torre?

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• 1:57Speaker 01

  How's it going?

• 1:59Pablo Torre?

  We meet again.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  I know, the Phil beat is action-packed.

• 2:04Pablo Torre?

  It never stops getting darker, weirder, juicier, more journalistically challenging in some ways, I would venture to say.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that sounds right. Has there been any update on the Sable Offshore? How's that permit going?

• 2:22Pablo Torre?

  We are talking on Tuesday, and I just checked the Sable Offshore stock price. It sunk 40% this morning on a $1.2 billion capital raise plan. This after the President of the United States sort of came over the top to say,

• 2:40Speaker 03

  Drill, baby, drill.

• 2:47Pablo Torre?

  Not exactly the greatest month for Phil Mickelson, I think.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  The President's saying we should drill more? Wouldn't that help them?

• 2:53Pablo Torre?

  Well, Alan, I don't know if you know this, but the key to America's greatness lies in an offshore oil pipeline near Santa Barbara, California. This is how we're gonna get out of this quagmire involving the Middle East. Maybe you've heard of some things going on over there.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Is Phil gonna bring peace to the Mideast with this offshore pipeline? We could pull up stakes and be like, all right, never mind, we don't need the Iran.

• 3:19Pablo Torre?

  We're good. We got this.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 3:22Pablo Torre?

  We got this all under control.

• 3:47Pablo Torre?

  So, something extremely strange has been happening with Phil Mickelson, amid a lot of other strange things that were already happening with Phil Mickelson, like the impending collapse of the Saudi-backed Livetour, which we previously covered with our guest today, Alan Shepnek on this show, or the thing with Sable Offshore, the publicly traded oil company that we'll get back to later. Or the time Phil tweeted me back in November, quote, "I've never heard of you and have no idea who you are, but given what I know to be true and what you report, you're tabloid, and I'll wait for the right opportunity. Thumbs up emoji," end quote. But we here at Pablo Torre finds out,

• 4:31Pablo Torre?

  continue to wait. Because Phil Mickelson, the second greatest golfer of his generation, right next to Tiger Woods, a wildly popular folk hero family man by reputation, basically disappeared.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  He missed the first four events on the Live Golf schedule, and he was citing a family health situation, which seems valid. You know, one of his kids has had some serious health issues. And then in mid-March, he made his debut at Live South Africa, which is not just right around the corner from his home in San Diego. And I talked to some Live golfers, and they said Phil was fired up. He seemed he was ready to play, and he was excited, and he was talking about the season to come. And then after that, he went underground again. And he missed the Masters, he missed the PGA Championship, and he kept citing the family health situation, although clearly it was OK for him to go to South Africa. So that was part of the mystery.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  As Live Golf is fighting for its survival, you know, Phil's its biggest star. He's the most accomplished player. He's really the godfather of Live Golf. He helped found the whole thing. And for him to be underground was stunning.

• 5:49Pablo Torre?

  But even more conspicuous, Phil Mickelson also went dark on Twitter, where he had transformed into one of the most prolific posters in all of sports. Which leads us now back to Alan Shipnuck, the guy who literally wrote the book on Phil and has now cracked this story wide open for the outlet Scratch Golf, starting with a rumor that we had both heard back in the spring about a place called The Farms.

• 6:22Pablo Torre?

  Which I want to start with here because I need people to understand what The Farms is and what this incident was. I had been making calls about that in May. And then Golf Digest got to it, which brings us to everything else that you found out. But can you just set the table for us? What happened at The Farms?

• 6:41Speaker 01

  So The Farms is an interesting place. It's in Rancho Santa Fe. You know, the golf equipment industry is anchored in Carlsbad, which is nearby. And there's a lot of great players out of The Farms. There's a lot of dudes who are in the equipment industry. It's not super fancy. It's really a place where serious golfers go to play golf. And there are other clubs where there's a lot of drinking, there's a lot of carousing. That's never really been the vibe at The Farms. And, you know, Phil liked to go there because there were a lot of good players and he could test himself and it was a good competition. And so it's a little unlikely that this whole thing would happen at The Farms. But there was, there was a woman who, who worked there. By all accounts, young, attractive.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  And Phil was playing with some guys and something happened. I've, I've heard different versions of it. I've been actually trying to get the documents from the San Diego sheriff. They've been slow playing me for weeks. It's been very tedious dealing with them. But he had some interaction with this young woman. He touched her in some way. She complained immediately to the general manager and the management of the place. They went out and confronted Phil and they asked him to leave the property. They did an investigation and Phil wound up losing his membership there and is not, not welcome on the property anymore. And the term that the Golf Digest used was non-consensual inappropriate physical contact. So that, that happened in mid-March.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Everyone heard about it because it was during the day, there was other members there and it went around instantly. I mean, my phone started ringing probably three days after it happened and it sounds like yours did too. And I reached out to the general manager, he never got back to me. But I was, I was pursuing it, but if I'm honest. I probably wasn't chasing as hard as I should have because I have this long history with Phil. I wrote this book about him and I, I knew that if I broke this with only anonymous sources, and that was the way it was going, because every member said, we've been told not to talk about it. There's, there's been law enforcement involved. I can't say anything. But if I dropped this story with only anonymous sources, Phil would attack me and say I have

• 8:46Speaker 01

  invented debt against him. And that was in the back of my mind, probably to my discredit. But Golf Digest then broke the story and they had only anonymous sources, but they don't have this, this, this long tangled history that like I do with Mickelson. So that kind of cracked things open and I'd already been talking to a lot of people. I've been hearing more things. And after that story dropped, some folks called me back. So people became a little more willing to talk and I was getting more tips and I was, I was able to chase the story harder. And so in some ways, I guess it was probably helpful that it was Digest that was able to crack the code on the Farms.

• 9:28Pablo Torre?

  I mean, just the visual that was reported in which Phil Mickelson is being stopped by club officials mid-round, confronted with the accusation on the course, is told to leave the premises before completing the round. For people who don't know the Farms, this is local to him, right? He grew up not far from there. He is Phil "bleeping" Mickelson. Like, it's a thing that does not often happen to men of his stature with that sort of a bond with the surrounding area.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, Phil's the king of San Diego. He's born and raised there. He's always lived there. You know, Rancho Santa Fe is this very exclusive sort of enclave, just, just a little north of the city, but is, for all intents and purposes, is San Diego. He's a member at every club in town. You go down the list, like Phil plays them all. And he's a guy who likes to play golf seven days a week. I mean, it's part of why he's had this unparalleled longevity. He's just obsessed with golf. He loves to play. He loves the action. He loves the hang. He loves the bros. And so, I mean, Phil will play golf every day of the week somewhere in the San Diego area. And so if you're a golfer in San Diego at a private club, you've had some interaction with Phil. He's just a larger-than-life character down there.

• 10:41Pablo Torre?

  And so when the Farms ultimately issues this statement to Golf Digest, as we're setting up. The pretext for what you reported, it's a thunderbolt because what the Farms Golf Club says is, quote, "They are committed to maintaining a golf club environment that is safe, respectful, and reflects the highest standards of conduct. All members are required to adhere to our code of conduct, and any allegations of misconduct are taken seriously. Following a staff member report of member misconduct, the club provided immediate and ongoing support to the staff member, conducted a thorough, independent investigation of the incident, and took decisive action." This individual, this being Phil Mickelson is what is unsaid, is no longer a member of the Farms Golf Club.

• 11:24Pablo Torre?

  And post-publication, a spokesperson for Phil confirmed that he had resigned, which is the language that, you know, there is some interpretation there, right? Of who asked who, who told who to do what. But he is no longer a member. And what that does, Alan, in terms of your cellphone, just to give us the overview, how many people do you end up talking to once that seal is broken in the course of reporting what you did in your follow-up for Scratch?

• 11:56Speaker 01

  I had 19 sources, and that's not counting Dustin Johnson and Mark Brooks and other players who I interviewed who are named in the story. But people who had direct information about Phil's misconduct. And that also doesn't count to the lawyer of the alleged victim at the Farms, who I reached out to because, of course, there's been a lot of rumors that the reason there were no charges filed was because there was some sort of settlement. She did employ a lawyer, but he refused to answer any of my questions. But I finished my book in 2021, and Phil was on top of the golf world. He'd won the PGA Championship, this incredible victory lap, oldest man ever to win a major championship. It was presumed he was going to be a Ryder Cup captain,

• 12:40Speaker 01

  and he was going to probably wind up in the CBS Tower, and he was going to be this massive figure in the game for the foreseeable future. And so some of the things that are in my Scratch story I knew about when I was doing the book, but people would not talk to me. They would only talk to me off the record. I could not use it. They were just afraid of the blowback. And That was disappointing, but I also understood. And then after the book came out, I started to hear more stories. These other places beyond the farms where Phil had gotten in some mischief. He wound up leaving the club. So I'd heard about it. I could never quite nail it down.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  And so there was just this sense, not just from me, but from everyone else that Phil is always going to get away with it. And it was pointless to try and, you know, to come out against him or to put your name on an accusation because somehow he will get away with it. And the farm story comes out, and I think that was the signal to a lot of people in the golf world, like, okay, maybe now is the time. Like, I've been carrying this stuff around for a long time. And I have things I want to say about Phil that I've never said, but maybe this is the moment. And that's when people started talking to me.

• 13:53Pablo Torre?

  You can sense when there's something that people are not saying, when there is something especially that lots of people are not saying, because they often only want to talk like extremely off the record. But the inflection point, which is what we're describing for Phil Mickelson right now. I mean, it, it, it comes amid this larger now increasingly, I think, answerable mystery of like, where the [__] did he go?

• 14:21Pablo Torre?

  Because he was the most active person that I was following on Twitter, tweeting relentlessly about offshore oil drilling. He was getting increasingly political. There was that stuff, huge Trump guy, all of that was happening. Then the live golf season comes, the US Open in Shinnecock. That comes and goes. He's not there, the PGA Championship, his name appears and then it disappears. And now, as you begin to piece all this together, it gives us a portrait of a guy who was one thing in public and now is extraordinarily different.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's important to remember that Phil was this paragon of family values. That was a huge part of his brand. You go back to the 1999 US Open, Amy is nine months pregnant in California. Phil's in North Carolina at Pinehurst playing. And if Amy goes into labor, Phil's going to walk off the course no matter what. And so that becomes an inescapable part of this drama. Payne Stewart makes that iconic putt.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  The 1999 U.S. Open champion. Oh my.

• 15:30Speaker 05

  What a clutch putt.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  If he hadn't made that putt, they would have gone to playoff the next day. Amy had the baby the next morning, so Phil got home in time for that. And then in 2003, Amy almost dies in childbirth. Same with their son Evan, you know, he didn't take a breath for 12 minutes with modern medicine. It is a miracle that he came out OK. And Phil rededicates himself, says he's going to give up all the gambling. He makes his covenant to be a better man, better husband, goes on to win his first Masters. And then that that becomes part of the story. 2010 Masters, you know, Amy and then Phil's mother, Mary, both have breast cancer. And Phil wins the Masters for them.

• 16:12Speaker 05

  People have been wondering all this year during Tiger's absence. Why wasn't Phil out there winning tournaments? And no one ever really put the obvious together. The things back home were unsettled with Amy's recent treatments. It's been difficult. She's doing well, but it has been extremely tough. She's been in bed here in Augusta all week, coming out today for the first time. Now to close with a birdie.

• 16:38Speaker 05

  That's a win for the family.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  And Amy hadn't been seen in public in a very long time. She's behind the green for this hug. The whole sports world cries along with them.

• 16:59Pablo Torre?

  And the context of that 2010 Masters is the contrast with Tiger. That Tiger Woods is coming back post-sex scandal. And there is Phil as this relative angel to the other, you know, all-time golfer on your shoulder.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they've always been rivals and foils and frenemies. And so, yeah, that was that was a stark contrast, you know. That Masters was this morality play at Augusta National. So it's not just that Phil has lost his way. It's that this this beloved figure.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  And it was a huge part of his brand was the loving husband and the doting father. And so that's why this fall from grace is is extra stunning. And it's also why it's it's carried so far because the one thing that that people don't like is to be lied to. I think America has proven many times that it's forgiving. And if you make a mistake and you take ownership of it, you will get a second or a third chance. But people don't want to be bamboozled.

• 18:03Pablo Torre?

  The family values branding was so lucrative also to just be very blunt about it. I mean, 2013, as you point out, his endorsement incomes, $44 million. He is one of the highest paid athletes in the world when you add in all the winnings on top of that. And meanwhile, throughout this long arc that you're tracing, there were clues that people were sort of leaving, which said, this is not the guy you think he is. And I want to play this sound. This is a friend that Phil Mickelson had known since they were both kids named Pat Perez, a fellow tour pro who went on Claude Harmon's podcast.

• 18:45Pablo Torre?

  This is November 2022, and he said this.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  When it comes to Phil, I have a different hate for Phil than most people. And people won't know the story. I'm not going to go into the story again, but Phil crossed a line with me that is just uncrossable and unforgivable. And he knows that he screwed up. He apologized for the action, but it doesn't. I cannot forgive him for it because I've known Phil for a long, long time. I've known the guy forever.

• 19:19Pablo Torre?

  And so, Alan, to explain what is not being said there that you have now reported, that you broke the news on.

• 19:28Pablo Torre?

  What happened in that incident that Pat Perez is referring to?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yes, and even a little more context. So, a lot of people pinpointed sort of the mid 2010s as that's when Phil lost his way. 2013 was when he won the Open Championship at Muirfield. It was probably his greatest victory, as he's called it. And after that, it was kind of a victory lap. And the winds started to dwindle. He's into his mid 40s. Amy had beaten breast cancer, but was traveling a lot less to safeguard her health and also to take care of the three kids who are now teens, you know, living their lives. And so, someone extremely close to Phil in that period said, you know, that he started drinking a lot more on the road. And he'd always been devoted

• 20:12Speaker 01

  to Amy, but that started to change. And so, maybe the family man was a real thing for when he was selling that image. But somewhere along the way, Phil lost his focus. He became fixated on Pat Perez's wife, Ashley. When she started dating Pat, she was only 22. She was young and kind of innocent. She was new to golf, new to the lifestyle, all of it. And so, people who'd been very close to him in that period said, Phil talked about Ashley Perez a lot. And so, at the 2015 Barclays Tournament in New Jersey, Phil was a member at Liberty National, you know, this very swank club, right in the shadow of the Statue of Liberty. And he's staying at this, this big villa, I think it has

• 20:54Speaker 01

  four bedrooms. And he calls Ashley, not Pat, and says, "Hey, why don't you guys move into this villa? I've got plenty of space." And so, they're like, "Great." You know, they're just in some mediocre Marriott by the Newark Airport. And so, they stay up their first night, you know, Phil loves his red wine. So, they're sitting out on the patio and they're drinking wine. You know, Pat says they drank three bottles of wine. And at some point, Pat gets up to use the restroom, and Phil pulls out his phone and he shows a picture to Ashley. It's a nude selfie. He's fully erect. He's flexing a bicep, which to me is the best part of the whole image. And he says, "I'm gonna leave my bedroom door

• 21:35Speaker 01

  open tonight when Pat falls asleep. I want you to come visit me." And Pat comes back to the table, no acknowledgement of what happened. You know, Ashley's so stunned, she doesn't say anything. And that is what Pat is referring to. And he had, he had carried that. Around for a long time. I mean, that that podcast with Claude Harmon is seven years later.

• 21:55Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  So after that podcast goes viral, Phil calls Pat again to talk about this situation. And they have this 26 minute phone call that Ashley recorded. It's on speakerphone and Ashley just made a recording of it. She played it for me and it's a fascinating document. And basically throughout, Phil says, I don't remember anything from that night. We had all that wine and so that that's kind of, that's his, his stance. And yet he's also apologizing profusely throughout. So he's kind of working both sides of the street. I don't remember it, but if anything happened, I'm sorry for it. And I didn't put this in the scratch story.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  He says, why didn't you say anything back then, you know, if this did happen? And, and Pat Perez says, well, it would just devolve into a he said, she said, and you're the big fish. And so you would win that battle. And so that gives you some insight into Pat's thinking and, and how these things just kind of went away. But clearly Pat still had a lot of anger towards Phil and it exploded in that podcast. And that, that helped make this story what it is because that, that lays the groundwork. But you can tell he doesn't really believe that Phil doesn't remember. But what, what's he gonna do with that? And that phone call is, is fascinating.

• 23:17Pablo Torre?

  How did you get in touch with Ashley Perez? Who plays you this tape in which you get to hear this private conversation? That attests to the dynamic that you're reporting.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  So I did a big story on Pat Perez years and years ago. And I went to the family home. Ashley cooked us pork chops. We had a long dinner. They liked the story. That story kind of captured. Their unusual dynamic and Pat's sort of rebellious pose on the PGA Tour. And so Ashley Layer told me she's always had a high opinion of me as a reporter, going back to that piece. And so I had her phone number from those days and I just reached out to her. And again, she was finally ready to talk. You know, her and Pat were divorced and he is finalized in 24. So she'd kind of exited the golf world. She no longer felt beholden to carry the secret.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  And I think she had been ready to talk for a while and someone finally reached out to her. And it was interesting because I talked to many rich and or powerful men for this story, members at these private clubs, golf buddies with Phil. And they all had very harsh critiques of Phil and his behavior. But in the end, they didn't want me to use their names. They were trying to protect their businesses or their social standing. They don't want to get any side eye at the golf club. Ashley Perez had the courage to put her name on it and to come out publicly. And that was a big deal because, as I said at the top, I just didn't want to have a story of nothing but anonymous sources. Because we know that we're in an era now where people love to attack reporters. They love to try and deflect.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  And I felt like it was really important to have a face to this story. And it turned out to be Ashley. And so there was another woman who I had been speaking to, part of, you know, Phil's inner circle at one point, that during a dinner, Phil had aggressively propositioned her, allegedly, and used incredibly graphic language. And she had told me that story off the record. She was going to decide if she wanted me to use it or not. Ashley too, she had to decide if she wanted to use her name. And we had a lot of conversations about it. And she finally said, yes. That allowed me to go back to this other woman and say, well, I'm going to tell Ashley's story. She's named. She said, okay, you can use my story too.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  She, you know, no one wanted to be the first person to jump into the pool to test the water. Once Ashley said yes, I was able to get this other person. There was other folks at that dinner. I called them, they corroborated it. I mean, it's solid. But it was an important thing for this other source to know that there was going to be a named person in the story. Like you need someone to have the courage to actually say it.

• 26:16Pablo Torre?

  The end of June and July can be a really rough period for sports fans with football still a few months away and basketball and hockey ended. But this year, we're pretty lucky because not only is there a World Cup, there is a World Cup in our backyard. And so make sure to check out the Athletic Podcast Network to stay up to date on all things related to the World Cup. You can wake up with the Totally Football Show from LA, then dive deep into the biggest talking point of the day with the Athletic FC Podcast, and you can watch the Tifo Podcast fool around on their daily live streams in the afternoon. All shows are free to watch or listen on your favorite podcast platform. This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

• 26:58Pablo Torre?

  With Apple Card, you earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases like groceries, or merch, or tickets to the game. Plus, it can be used anywhere MasterCard is accepted. No matter your team, no matter where you shop, Apple Card is here to help you tackle game day. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. One thing you learn quickly as a journalist is that you should go directly to the experts when you want the best info, the ones who live it every day. And when it comes to jackets, what could possibly make you a better expert than being a Jackson Hole local?

• 27:41Pablo Torre?

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• 28:25Pablo Torre?

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• 28:49Speaker 02

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 29:26Pablo Torre?

  What Ashley says to you is, quote, "There is a culture of silence that keeps women from coming forward. I want to give other women the courage to share their truth. With Phil, I feel like the pattern has been there for many years, but people have been afraid to go public because it's Phil Mickelson. We give these golfers so much adulation and money, they think they're gods. They think they're untouchable. Being a pro athlete doesn't exempt you from behaving respectfully in society. With Phil, you're dealing with an egotistical narcissist." And so that is Ashley Perez, with her own name attached, going on the record, saying the thing that ends up developing this portrait of a person, who, by the way, through his legal representation, had something to say to you, Alan, which we should cite here because it's interesting, right?

• 30:10Pablo Torre?

  Quote, "Some of the allegations circulating about Mr. Mickelson are false and others revisit mistakes he has already acknowledged publicly or privately. Stacking the disputed claims next to the ones he has owned does not make them credible. It instead contributes to a false and misleading narrative. No person, no article, and no book can present an accurate, complete, or personal story of the life Mr. Mickelson and his family have lived. His story struggles in..." Recovery belonged to him and to the people who have shared it closely alongside him. Recovery is not a straight line. Throughout their 35 year relationship, his wife, Amy Mickelson, has supported Mr. Mickelson and their family with extraordinary grace, unwavering love, and the belief that people are measured not only by their failures, but by what they do to make them right. Mr. Mickelson's priority is to become the husband, father, and man his family deserves.

• 30:54Pablo Torre?

  Right now, that means giving his full attention to a private family health matter. He understands that parts of his life are public, but his family's private matters are not, end quote. And just to translate that a bit, you do see the commingling of various things swirling in Phil's life, which are, again, worthy of consideration. Private family health matter, of course. Let us take that at face value, as has been presented to you and other journalists and the golf world. And then also you see the nonspecific denials of what we're outlining here.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like the little jab in there about no book can accurately convey.

• 31:37Pablo Torre?

  No book, Alan. No book.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  That seems a little gratuitous, but I enjoyed it. So, yeah, I don't take issue with all of it. I mean, I have a lot of empathy for Amy and for the Mickelson kids. This is no doubt an incredibly difficult time. People are allowed to make mistakes and hopefully transcend them. The real issue, and I know, I already knew this, but reading the Twitter replies has been a little dispiriting. There's been a lot of, a lot of love out there, you know, for people still doing journalism, which I know you get when you do these big pieces as well, and that's gratifying. But there's, there's been a whole strain of like, he's a rich athlete, of course he's chasing girls, what's the big deal? Like, that, that's been a very common sentiment.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I don't want to be the morality police in that regard, but it's really the non-consensual nature of what's, what's happening here.

• 32:31Pablo Torre?

  Yes, yes.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  We've talked about the farms. This thing with Ashley Perez was very non-consensual. This dinner party that I-

• 32:40Pablo Torre?

  Dinner, just a dinner party, right? Because I do want to just provide some of the context in your reporting here.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's get into that, sure.

• 32:46Pablo Torre?

  Phil is drunk, allegedly, and graphically propositioning a woman at this dinner. And she says, I will quote the reporting.

• 32:56Pablo Torre?

  Something felt off. He was behaving a little odd. Out of nowhere, Phil started asking the most inappropriate questions about my personal life and then propositioning me in graphic detail. He went on and on about how he'd been fantasizing about me and all the things he wanted to do to me. It was incredibly awkward. The rest of us kept trying to change the subject, but he was relentless. The more wine he drank, the louder he got. There was a family at the table next to us, and I have no idea what they heard. It was horrible. I was sweating profusely. It felt like verbal rape. End quote. And then you cite the two other members of the dinner party who corroborate that lurid language, that behavior. But this is to say, there is allegedly a non-consensual dynamic that keeps popping up in the reporting, as well as this contrast with the public image,

• 33:41Pablo Torre?

  which is that of somebody who, it turns out, was flying quite close to the sun, in terms of thinking he would never have to answer questions about any of this.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  So many people that I called for this story said something to the effect of, you know, someone has to stop this person. This behavior will just continue. And then Ashley Perez had her own incident at a dinner with Phil, and she said, you know, he was using incredibly graphic language. He was using two fingers to demonstrate his technique. She's like, and we were at this nice restaurant with a bunch of people at the table. It was like, it was wildly inappropriate.

• 34:18Pablo Torre?

  And the phone call with Phil also acknowledged that you listened to, that Ashley played for you, that it also acknowledged that first incident, which predated the photo of Phil and the erection and the bicep.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And Pat Perez is talking about that dinner, and he says, "I didn't really have a problem with it." He's like, "What Coach did," and Coach is Phil's longtime agent, Steve Loy, who I reached out to for comment, who didn't respond. And so, how many times does this happen? It's not appropriate. It's not what, it's not acceptable. That was just a strain that kept coming up over and over, is...

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Somebody has to stop this. It's just this longstanding pattern of behavior. You know, what happened with Ashley Perez, both the dinner party and the photograph, that was 2015. What happened at The Farms is 2026. This is something that's happened repeatedly now. And so that's why it felt like a story that had to be told.

• 35:13Pablo Torre?

  And look, my understanding, despite not having any association with these golf clubs, not being nearly as well sourced as you are at places like this, the dream is to have a Phil Mickelson around. You'd advertise that you put his photo on the wall. That's kind of the point. Look who's hanging out here. And yet, in your reporting, you keep on tallying up these instances of these exclusive golf clubs, effectively realizing Phil Mickelson can no longer be a member here. And in the first story you told at The Farms, there was the management of the club coming to a mid-round saying as much, effectively. But in these other stories, and I want to take us now to the Madison Golf Club first, it's also Phil's family intervening, it sounds like.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yes, the Madison Club is this enclave out in Palm Springs desert, was probably the most exclusive prestigious golf club in that whole area. Quarter million dollars to join, at least. There's glittering membership. And it's a really fun place. So I went and actually did a podcast with Phil in 2017. I met him at the Madison Club and he was holding court in the bar. And there were 20 dudes hanging on every word. And it's known as a good time.

• 36:27Speaker 04

  We're in La Quinta, in your condo at the Madison Club, which seems like a pretty fun place to hang out. What kind of hang is this place? It's the best hang. It's the best modern day golf experience, from the food to the pristine practice facilities to the golf course. It's a... It's really a fun place to come, uh, spend time, but this, that's not.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  You know, it's a lot of drinking. It's a lot of gambling. It's just a fun place to be a member. And Phil had this bachelor pad. That was the vibe anyway, that was up in the, in the clubhouse, you know, dark leather furniture. Every wall was covered with photos from his career, tons of golf equipment. And he would spend December and January kind of tuning up for the PGA Tour season. Cause the weather was perfect out there that time of year. He'd spend a lot of time in March there getting ready for the Masters. And I talked to members, I talked to employees. They said they almost never saw Amy there, like. She would bring the kids. They, they'd go to the Coachella Music Festival and they, they would stay there. But that was pretty much the only time they ever saw Amy on the property. And so.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Every person I talked to associated with the club, the members, the employees, you know, said at some point Phil started. You know, having overnight guests in the, in this, this little condo he had. Amy was not on the property and Phil would go out to play golf and he would have breakfast delivered to the front door. Funny enough, they remembered the, the order. It was a veggie omelet and an almond milk latte. And, um, he'd go out and play. The food would be delivered to whomever was, was still staying. And that's how everyone described it. And so. Uh, at some point, the club management gets a phone call from, you know, the Mickelson's Wealth Management Firm. And they say they want the condo sold and, and the membership terminated.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  And Phil's no, no longer, you know, going to be a member at the Massing Club. And this all happens very hastily. Never says goodbye. You know, people there loved him, including the employees. And it was just like, Phil was just overnight, he was gone. So then he starts consolidating a lot of his golf at the Bridges. You know, that was, that was in his backyard, essentially in Rancho Santa Fe where the family home was. And they'd been members there for a long time. He paid his monthly dues and he used the club a lot. And the family would go there for Thanksgiving dinner and he was a, a very regular presence at, at the Bridges. And, you know, talking to multiple, multiple members, they said, you know, all of a sudden, things were just different. He became close with a, with a guy who owned a big house on the course and he was, he was going over to that house a lot.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  And then these members said, you know, you would feel would give his, his phone to this cart boy, paying $500 to drive his phone around for three or four hours. So it would look like if anyone were to track his phone, oh, he's on the third hole, he's on the sixth hole, he's on the seventh hole. And that would give Phil some unchaperoned free time. And so that, that thing about the phone was corroborated by all the members. One told me it wasn't just the cart boys, like, um, you know, he would just put it in a member's cart and say, hey, I'm gonna leave my phone here. I'll catch up to you on the back nine. And you know, a couple, a couple hours later, he'd zoom out there and play a little golf and grab his phone. So.

• 39:37Pablo Torre?

  I need to stop for a second and just understand the, the plan here. Cause this rumor, by the way, is also something that I had heard way more abstractly that like, hey, you, you ever heard the story about how Phil Mickelson basically hides what he's doing from his wife at one of the golf clubs he belongs to by giving his phone to a cart boy to just like drive around. So the GPS tracker that presumably Amy Mickelson could check was showing a guy on the course as opposed to a guy not on the course, perhaps allegedly, doing things that his wife would not

• 40:16Pablo Torre?

  want. Effectively conscripting all of these people to keep, to not only keep, but to create the secret. Thinking none of this will come back to bite me at some point is, is mind blowing in every way.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Especially in a small cloistered little community like Rancho Santa Fe. You know, the, the members knew about this. Obviously at least one club employee knew about it. And in talking to all of them, they, they said at some point this all kind of blew up. And all of a sudden, Phil was no longer coming around the club. And then his membership got transferred to Xander Softly because Phil wasn't using it. And so you have the Madison Club, you have the Bridges, you have the Farms. These are three elite golf clubs. All of a sudden, Phil's no longer a member and he used, he used all of them. He loved to play golf at all of them. He was, he was a fixture at all of them. And the reason he left the club had nothing to do with like, oh, he didn't like. The green speeds anymore, or he felt like the the range balls were substandard.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  You know, it was it was all related to his his personal conduct. So again, it's part of this larger pattern. Each individual case is not necessarily a red flag. People leave golf clubs. It happens for whatever reason, but this pattern of behavior, it's telling. So that's what I was able to bring to light. And at the Massing Club, I had four sources. At the Bridges, I had four sources. And these were not random members like, oh, I once saw Phil across the locker room and he waved at me. Like, these were guys who played golf with Phil. They'd been to his house, they were close to Phil. And building this story around all these details and all these different places and all these different people. I think in the end, that's why Phil didn't really contest any of it.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  After we sent him the fact checking and the request for comment is because the totality of the report, he's so big. And where he's playing his golf now, nobody knows. He's still a member at Del Mar. He's always going to find a game somewhere, but it's stunning that he he can no longer go to his his favorite golf clubs.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 43:06Pablo Torre?

  So the thing that I think about that we've talked about previously, because this is not the first episode about Phil Mickelson that we've done together, Alan. The thing I think about is something you told me before about the juice. And what animates a guy like Phil Mickelson? And how is it that he keeps finding himself in these scenarios? The equivalent, as you put it, of a guy who's trapped in a bunker and there's a miracle shot out there? Maybe?

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a quote in the scratch story that is really sums it all up. And again, this is a guy who played a lot of golf with Phil. They had a few business enterprises. And he said, he's just a dopamine addict. He said, Phil does everything for the dopamine. The way he plays the game, the gambling, you know, chasing chicks on the road in his formulation. Even going to live golf, he just needs action at all times. He just needs the dopamine.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  I have a mind that kind of dives into things all in that we talk about. And I think it's a very positive thing, but it can be a negative thing. I've never tried a recreational drug in my life because I am scared out of my mind that if I were to ever try something like that, I could easily get dive right down that path and be all in on that.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  And it tracks, you know? The alleged incident where he's propositioning this woman at dinner surrounded by other diners. Like, there was probably some sort of thrill in that because you're violating these social mores and you're toying with your public image. And you see this through line in his behavior on the golf course for sure. And all the other hijinks, even the Sable Offshore, you know? There's probably other ways you can invest money. But there's something thrilling about this high wire act of trying to get the President of the United States to advocate for you and trying to circumvent Gavin Newsom and like, you know?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Put the money in T-bonds. There's ways to make money.

• 45:09Pablo Torre?

  There is no golfer that it turns out is less like a mutual fund than Phil Mickelson. Because the Sable Offshore story, which is how we started this now ongoing series about Phil Mickelson. Again, for those not familiar, Phil Mickelson became an investor in this oil and gas company named Sable Offshore. It controls oil drilling platforms off the coast of Santa Barbara. We did this episode with the reporting of Sam Koppelman at Hunter Brook Media. It resulted in It turns out, a newly relevant group chat message involving Big Daddy Trump and Donald Trump's genitalia, which we'll just flash on screen here for those who are watching on YouTube.

• 45:53Pablo Torre?

  And at last check, the paperwork that Sable offshore filed with the SEC, they had to admit that they received subpoenas from the DOJ, from the SEC, related to some of the information reported in that episode by Hunter Brook. And then, last week, just last week, there's this political headline, quote, "Here's how a small oil company became a weapon in Trump's assault on California", end quote, detailing the political fight that Trump is waging against Governor Gavin Newsom. Talks about how the Trump administration, via executive order, restarted the pumping of this oil, raising various environmental and regulatory concerns. And that's not even getting, of course, to the other,

• 46:36Pablo Torre?

  I would say, Middle East-driven concern with Live Golf, which is its own saga that we've also covered here. It raises the question, Alan, of are Phil's colleagues, his friends, the people he's known forever, is this surprising? Or maybe even more pointedly, how do they feel about this guy now, in your understanding?

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Phil's always been polarizing. And when my book came out in 2022, I had players, caddies, tour wives, agents, manufacturing reps, people walked up to me at tournaments, or they sent me notes, and they said, "Thank you for writing this book", because they knew there'd been this divide between the public and the private Phil. And the book kind of offered a roadmap between these two different people and these two different lives. And there's always been a resentment that Phil got such adoring press when people knew some of these stories, they've been floating around forever. There's PGA Tour players who will, they won't say it publicly, but will say it privately, that, you know, Phil was right about a lot of things when it came to the governance of the tour

• 47:44Speaker 01

  and the PGA Tour stashing away all this money in the reserve fund that should have gone to the players.

• 47:48Pablo Torre?

  Sure.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Because since the arrival of Live Golf, which Phil helped birth, the money has been flowing on the PGA Tour, and the players have taken over the governance of the tour. He was correct on both accounts, that the tour had more money to give, and that the players should be running the tour. So- They will grudgingly acknowledge that Phil has made their lives better and much more lucrative. But because he's been such a troll and because he's been so obnoxious in the press about this whole battle between the tours, they don't want to publicly acknowledge these things. They will privately. But so, yeah, I mean, Phil's been polarizing for a long time with

• 48:27Speaker 01

  his peers. And this has barely even been remarked upon. But when Phil won the 2021 PGA Championship, that got him a five-year exemption into the US Open. This would have been his last US Open at Shinnecock under that exemption. And that's gone now. And so, he may never play another US Open. And it wasn't even remarked upon. And he had a chance to win there in 2004. It's probably the best golf he ever played, and he didn't win. And he's still sour about it. And yet, the Shinnecock Open came and went, and there was hardly an acknowledgement of Phil. There's sort of Phil erasure going on for various reasons. So, he's always been polarizing. He's become much more so now. And that's part of the tragedy of this whole

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Phil Mickelson story, is that this guy had it all. And he could have been this beloved elder statesman. And he could have made more money than he ever did through Live Golf in the CBS booth. He could have been making $20 million a year, more or less forever, as a TV guy. He would have been the Ryder Cup captain at the Ryder Cup at Bethpage last fall. Like, that was tailor-made for Phil. He'd been penciled in there forever. You know how Nicklaus and Palmer were the honorary starters at the Masters forever? You know, that would have been Phil and Tiger. And that's probably gone now, too. And so, the amount of goodwill he's burned up from 2021 until now is phenomenal. You know,

• 49:53Speaker 01

  when Phil won that PGA Championship at age 50 in 2021, it was the ultimate achievement in golf. It highlighted the fact that he'd been at the front ranks of the game for three decades, unparalleled longevity across all professional sports. And the outpouring of love and affection around him was extreme. And so, that's all gone now. And that's...

• 50:19Speaker 01

  You can only have so much empathy because it's all from his own doing. But it is an incredible fall from grace. And the Tiger parallels, you know, Tiger's committed actual crimes. He's been in the judicial system.

• 50:33Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  He's endangered the lives of many people by being on the road when he's so impaired. And his [BLEEP] actually went public. Tiger has had so much messiness in his life for 17 years now. And yet, he keeps getting welcomed back. He does have that elder statesman role. You know, they offered him the Ryder Cup captaincy. He's been the President's Cup captain. He's the chairman of the Futures Competitions Committee on the PGA Tour. He's basically running the PGA Tour. And so it's an interesting thought exercise. You know, why has Tiger been redeemed? And why is Phil not? And part of it is because the other players like Tiger. He's always been good to them. He's never criticized them publicly.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  He's never talked trash about them. But mostly, his loyalty to the PGA Tour put money in their pockets in a way that felt right. Whereas Phil going to live golf created all this angst. And so it really comes down to, in the file analysis, Phil burned a lot of players and Tiger never did. And that's why he keeps getting welcomed back. And as for the court of public opinion, that's a whole other thing.

• 51:47Pablo Torre?

  My interest here, frankly, is not the court of public opinion. My interest is, what's the truth? And where we are, maybe we're in just an earlier cycle in the long arc of redemption that sports allows its athletes, right? Tiger has had a longer roller coaster that we've been watching, do all of these dips and dives. Phil, thanks in large part to your work. We are only grasping the sense of what a loop-de-loop his life has actually been. And so I'm not saying that Phil will not be redeemed. I'm merely saying that what has happened is, by his own design,

• 52:32Pablo Torre?

  perhaps both inevitable and overdue. And that's why I want to do this episode with you.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's an old Nike ad starring Tiger Woods where he says, you know, winning takes care of everything. And Tiger, you know, after the sex scandal in 2009, you know, he got back to number one. He started winning tournaments again. And prescription painkillers in 2017, he came back and he won the Masters. And so he has been able to to win his way out of some of this. Phil, at 56 years old, that's probably not available to him. Tiger's always had the platform of the PGA Tour. You know, Phil could be a man with no country. Professionally speaking, he's not going to go back to the PGA Tour. There would be a very long suspension and a very steep fine for him to rejoin the PGA Tour.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  He doesn't want to deal with that. So not only does that mean the PGA Tour, that also means the senior tour, the over 50 guys, because that's part of the tour apparatus. So he can't play on either one of those tours. Live golf may disappear. I mean, where's Phil Mickelson going to play his golf? He could go over to the Asian Tour. He could play maybe a little bit in Europe, but that would feel like such an exile. And so are we done ever seeing Phil Mickelson in another golf tournament? It's startling to think about because it was only two years ago he had a chance to win the Masters. But now, like, has he played his last tournament? It's it's an incredible thing to think about.

• 54:00Pablo Torre?

  The last scene, by the way, that I I want to mention here is what Phil's presence looks like at the Farms right now. At the Farms, there's, you know, a Michael Jordan's on the wall, right? Phil was in that company. Where is where is that now?

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I went to Rory McIlroy's home course last summer, and it's a museum. They have trophies and they have photos and they have memorabilia. And it really feels like a museum. They're so proud of him. And you go to the Farms now, they took all the photos down. Any mention, any any sighting of Phil Mickelson that was in the clubhouse has been removed. And it's it's more than symbolic. I mean, it's like he's just he's just gone.

• 54:57Pablo Torre?

  A far lesser presence at those clubs, a far greater one on this podcast at least.

• 55:09Pablo Torre?

  But there is one last thing before we let you go here. Because just as we were wrapping up publication of this episode on Thursday, a spokesperson for Phil Mickelson released a 738-word statement, which we're going to link in the show notes, in response to Alan Shipnuck's reporting. And the statement claimed that Phil's departures from golf clubs were his own decisions alone, and that he has never been forced by his wife or any golf club to surrender his membership, and that the whole GPS Cart Boy story was about, quote, "an ordinary Find My Family feature on, you know, cellphones, and in no way sinister." It also says that, quote, "Mr. Mickelson's willingness to apologize for his conduct

• 55:53Pablo Torre?

  should not be misconstrued as an admission of every allegation made against him," end quote. And then it also argues that Scratch Golf's business relationship with the PGA Tour is worth considering, given Phil's history with Lyft. Meanwhile, Scratch Golf, on behalf of Alan Shipnuck, released a long statement of its own, which we'll also link in the show notes here. But this is a key sentence, quote, "We gave Phil and Amy Mickelson ample time to respond to every element of the story, and they chose not to challenge a single assertion," end quote. In other words, they stand by their reporting.

• 56:45Pablo Torre?

  Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Avaroma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tumanello. Studio engineering by RG Systems. Sound design by Andrew Bersick. Digital strategy by Bailey Carlin and Andrew Northern. Theme song, as always, by John Bravo.

• 57:07Pablo Torre?

  And we'll talk to you next time.