How AI is modernizing EPCs

As the utility-scale solar market collides with an era defined by massive load growth, EPC (engineering, procurement, and construction) firms are rethinking their strategy to meet the moment. In this episode, Shayle speaks to George Hershman, CEO of SOLV Energy, one of the largest solar and storage construction firms in the US. George offers a unique perspective into the state of the market as well as the logistics of building gigawatt-scale projects and insights into how automation is changing the EPC game. Shayle and George discuss: Why George believes rising demand can help solar move past boom-and-bust cycles How SOLV is taking on larger projects without needing to increase its workforce proportionally How automation helps SOLV build and install utility-scale solar faster The logistics bottleneck impacting EPCs’ ability to scale How AI-driven simulations can help optimize installations Catalyst: Can AI revolutionize EPC? Catalyst: 2026 trends: Gas turbines, Texas’ load queue, and China electrifies Catalyst: Scaling America’s domestic solar supply chain Latitude Media: Can the US bring solar installation to below $2 per watt? Latitude Media: This former solar installer is all-in on software-only sales Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Max Savage Levenson. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is our executive editor. Catalyst is brought to you by FischTank PR, an award-winning climate and energy tech, renewables, and sustainability-focused PR firm dedicated to elevating the work of both early-stage and established companies. Learn more about their PR approach and how they can support your company’s messaging by visiting fischtankpr.com. Catalyst is brought to you by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform, by visiting energyhub.com. Tune into Critical Capital, a brand new podcast from Crux and Latitude Studios. Hosted by Crux CEO Alfred Johnson, Critical Capital explores the interlocking forces powering clean and critical infrastructure. Join us every other Tuesday for in-depth conversations at the intersection of energy, government, finance, and global markets. Listen here, or wherever you get podcasts.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Latitude Media, covering the new frontiers of the energy transition.

• 0:07Shayle Kann?

  I'm Shayle Khan. I lead the early-stage venture strategy at Energy Impact Partners. Welcome to Catalyst. Well, I've spent enough time on this podcast talking about EPCs, or engineering procurement and construction firms, for those not in the know. Anyway, it's time to talk to an EPC. Solve Energy is one of the biggest, particularly in the construction of solar and storage projects. Depending on your metric, Solve is usually either the biggest or the second biggest in the US. Anyway, they're big and they build a lot of big projects. They also went public earlier this year in a very successful IPO and somehow managed to snag the ticker MWH, or megawatt hour, which I very much appreciate. Anyway, George Hershman, Solve's CEO, has a really fantastic window into

• 0:51Shayle Kann?

  a bunch of things I'm interested in, ranging from the state of the market, to the labor shortage, to the extent that it exists, to the impact of AI and robotics on construction. So here's George.

• 1:10Speaker 00

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• 1:53Speaker 00

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• 2:07Speaker 02

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• 2:42Shayle Kann?

  George, welcome.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Well, thanks for having us, Derm me, Shale. Appreciate it.

• 2:46Shayle Kann?

  Excited to chat with you about the state of EPC in power and solar and storage in particular, and I'll maybe ask you to start by giving me your state of the market, like where are we at today?

• 3:00Speaker 03

  Well, actually, you know, we're really excited about the market, right? We're seeing huge opportunities across, you know, all of our services, whether that's our EPC business, our O and M business, our HV business. I mean, the, you know, power demand is real and we're seeing growth in every market across the country. So having been in this market for, you know, 18 plus years and seeing that, you know, demand is growing so fast and the need for, you know, our product and, you know, solar and storage has never been higher. So I'm pretty excited about it.

• 3:41Shayle Kann?

  All right, so boom times for solar and storage and all the associated services that you guys provide along with that. You mentioned you've been in the market for 18 years. I'm actually interested to hear, is this a cyclical business? You think of construction in the context of housing and things like that as being very cyclical and you go through periods of boom and bust and then, and the construction business kind of follows along suit with that. How have you seen over the 18 years, like, how has this market evolved? Is it similar boom and bust periods? Or is it more, I don't know, odd than that?

• 4:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it's a little bit different. I mean, I spent my first, you know, two thirds of my career in commercial construction. So I saw that cycle kind of every seven years. We don't really see that the same, right? And, you know, renewables has grown consistently since we started the business in 2008. And, you know, we started in small commercial and then that moved into utility. And I laugh now when I think about a utility project was like 10 or 15 megawatts.

• 4:48Shayle Kann?

  Yeah.

• 4:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, um, but we've just, you know, seen a very consistent growth period. While we've seen, I think, you know, small dips in the market in 17 and 18, there was a little bit of a development hangover from the original, what, you know, the ITC cliff we thought was there coming in 16. But since then, it's been kind of a slow march. If you look over, you know, a 24 month period, and I like to measure much more than, you know, kind of year to year, but if you look over any kind of 24 month period, there's been a gradual growth.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  And, you know, but now, you know, we're seeing, you know, significant growth because of demand. And I think that's important, right? Is when you think about how we all built our business, we built it in a energy market that was fairly flat. A lot of that was, you know, replacement of aging assets, but not real load growth. And now we're seeing significant load growth that the only way to meet it is with solar and storage, right? When you think about, you know, what is the fastest to deploy and lowest cost of energy? It really puts you back at solar and storage.

• 6:08Speaker 03

  And so I think that's what we're really seeing consistently. And so there's not the same. You know, kind of bust, you know, kind of boom and bust periods. I think what we've tried to do with our business a bit is look at how do we smooth out some of the transactional nature of EPC business. And that's why our kind of life cycle approach, thinking about, you know, the EPC business and the O and M business coupled together and providing those services for projects over an entire 35 year plus life cycle.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  And so while we might see some softening in EPC at different moments in time, we've got this reoccurring revenue base that we, you know, we manage over 20 gigawatts of projects across the country. So we have this large kind of recurring revenue base that smooths out our business, maybe different than other E and C companies and EPCs in the, in the country.

• 7:18Shayle Kann?

  I have always wondered how you manage that. I imagine in an ideal world, so you have a bunch of, let's just focus on the EPC side for a second. I appreciate that you have the O and M business, which is recurring and more consistent. But if you just look at the EPC side, you know, you've got, you've got a bunch of full time employees and then you also work with, I'm sure a million contractors and subcontractors on any given project, but you've got some fixed cost base. And that fixed cost base, you know, I think you could map it to a maximum number of megawatts that you could be constructing at any given time, I assume. And it could flex up and down because you could add more or less contractors. But, you know, these projects have gotten so big now, you know, you guys are probably,

• 8:02Shayle Kann?

  I don't know what you're building right now, but I'm guessing you're probably building multiple projects that are multiple hundreds of megawatts, maybe some projects that are approaching a gigawatt or more. And so there are these big lumpy projects that last a certain amount of time, some number of months from the beginning of construction to, to COD. Are you basically in a constant game of trying to put the puzzle pieces together such that you have a flat number of megawatts in construction over time?

• 8:33Shayle Kann?

  Like is it like a Tetris game like that? Or does it look something different from that?

• 8:37Speaker 03

  Well, it's actually changes over time. As we're starting to see these projects get larger, we're actually getting operational leverage. Because you think about it, if we were building 20 projects a year, say, and all those 20 projects were 20 megawatt projects, I'd still need a team to manage each one of those projects. Now those projects are, you know, averaging over 300 megawatts and up to a gigawatt in scale. So for a, I don't need, you know, 10 teams to manage a gigawatt project versus 100 megawatt project, right?

• 9:19Speaker 03

  So I actually get leverage in the system. And so, you know, a project team and maybe with some additional management resources can do a project, you know, that's 300 or 400 megawatts versus that same project team that would do something, you know, traditionally a few years ago at a much smaller scale. So the megawatts are growing, but the people that are managing them are not growing. So there's a lot of, there are a lot of leverage in the business as you start to look at these projects at scale.

• 9:58Speaker 03

  So, you know, if we had 20 teams building 20 gigawatts, I mean, 20 gigawatt projects, we could talk about a 20 gigawatt run rate, right? I mean, yes, I would have to, I would have to add more skilled labor resources, more, you know, field labor resources. But those are largely trainable skills and people that I can recruit. So I, I think that's why we're seeing the business just continue to grow over time and be able to take on the billions of dollars in.

• 10:37Speaker 03

  In, you know, revenue that we're starting to see from a, you know, yes, we're growing. I mean, we have 2,600 employees. So we started this business with, you know, with one or two. And so now, yes, the business has to grow with scale, but it doesn't have to grow 100% even though the, you know, we're doing that much more revenue. And so I think that's the difference that we're starting to see.

• 11:05Shayle Kann?

  You mentioned something there that I think cuts a little bit against conventional wisdom right now, which is you said, look, you know, if we, if we had to expand, do 20 gigawatt run rate, we would, we'd need more skilled laborers, but that's something we can train.

• 11:20Shayle Kann?

  You know, I think we hear a lot about a labor shortage and not specific just to solar and storage construction, for example, but now with this rising data center construction boom, you know, that we hear it there as well. And a lot of those people have the same skillsets that need to be trained, electricians and so on. How much of a constraint do you see the, the labor pool as? If you did need to go to 20 gigawatt run rate, like how hard would it be to recruit enough skilled laborers?

• 11:46Speaker 03

  Well, I, I think you have to think about our business a little bit different than a, you know, building a data center and the electricians and the skillset necessary for a data center. If you think about a solar project, you know, probably 85 to 90% of that is really, you know, labor and mechanical labor, right? You are, we're putting posts in the ground, we're bolting together racking systems and we're installing modules. And then, you know, 10 to 15% of that is really skilled, skilled electricians that

• 12:28Speaker 03

  are doing terminations and splicing and, you know, the, the kind of highly technical skill that you need to do those type of activities. Where in a data center that's happening, you know, every square inch of a project, you're doing, you're You're doing those kind of terminations and electrical work. So while we have highly skilled resources in our HV, you know, high voltage groups and doing substation work and where the, you know, that actual, you know, highly skilled resources needed. A lot of what we're doing is bringing in local resources and training them to do

• 13:12Speaker 03

  the mechanical install portion. Now, you know, that, that's not to say that we're not looking at optimization. So we're looking at every robotic, um, you know, system that's out there. We're doing, we're, we're doing testing on, you know, every one of our sites has some form of automo- automation or robotics that we're trying to implement because we're looking at how do we optimize crews? Because labor is expensive. And so even if we could get it, we want to reduce it or optimize it so that we can

• 13:50Speaker 03

  deliver at, you know, at the lowest cost and continue to look at ways to minimize the cost and, and drive up the efficiencies of our projects. Because I think the questions we get asked more is not about how can you build a project of this scale? But how do you build a project of this scale faster?

• 14:16Shayle Kann?

  I was going to say, it seems like the speed actually, when it comes to automation, you get the benefit of a lower labor pool. If you're constrained, you get the benefit of it maybe being cheaper. But right now, it feels like the, the killer app for automation is speed. And I'm curious how you think about that in terms of, um, what is the length of time that it normally takes you with a fully manual labor world to build a 300 megawatt project or whatever size you want? And then how much might you be able to speed that up? As you look at these automation solutions?

• 14:49Speaker 03

  Well, you know, um, not every project is the same. So it's really hard to, you know, come up with a, you know, 300 megawatts takes you 12 months, full stop, right? In certain areas, you could do it in 12 months. Certain areas, you're going to do it in 16 months, right? Because it's harder to build in the Northeast than it's hard than in West Texas. So, you know, we're trying to find out how do we just cut, you know? 15% or 10% out of a total build, right? So we're looking at more of how do we build in that type of efficiency? And look, if, you know, I always tell people, if I could, if I could transplant a built site,

• 15:34Speaker 03

  like pull it off the shelf and pull and put it on the ground, I'd be sold out, right? So our customers just want to say, how much faster can you build them? And so that's what we're looking at. I think in, in certain regions, we're going to gain 20% efficiency. In some areas, just because of weather and conditions and the buildable time that you have in, in certain regions, it's just going to take longer to build, right? And so I think it's for our teams and we have a, we have a, a team fully dedicated on how do we build it, you know, more lean, more, uh, with more innovation and, and technology

• 16:19Speaker 03

  within the process. Because I think we look at our business much more akin to manufacturing than we look at it as construction, right? You think about, we are, we're trying to do this, a, the same activity a million times. And how do we do that just slightly more efficient? And that's going to be through some part of human resources and some part of automation and robotics. And those two are going to have to work together to optimize and, and continue to drive, drive out time to market.

• 17:06Speaker 00

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• 17:48Speaker 00

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• 19:16Shayle Kann?

  I'm curious what you would say the rate limiter on your growth is right now. Like, if I told you, you need to, I mean, we talked about getting to 20 gigawatts, but let's just say, you know, as a theoretical exercise, I said, SOLV needs to be at a 50-gigawatt-a-year run rate as fast as possible. What would be the hardest thing to scale up?

• 19:36Speaker 03

  I think logistics, right? I think that when you think about these projects and the scale of them, it really becomes a logistics officer type of business, right? When you think about, you know, they always said, you know, logistics officers won wars, right? And because just moving the amount of equipment that we have to move and the amount of, you know, trucks. So you, when you, when you think about these projects that are, you know, how do you build, and a question get asked of me, how do you build two gigawatts in a year on a single site? When you think about these massive data centers? And I said, tell me how I'm going to move that many trucks?

• 20:19Speaker 03

  How I'm gonna, you know, assuming I can get all the people, right? Because I'll, we'll attract people, we'll attract, we'll get, you know, how am I going to continue to supply that many people? Putting that amount of work in place, right? The amount of trucks that we have to move becomes the gating activity, not the amount of people, right? Because, you know, how are you going to park people? How are you going to bus them in? How are you gonna, I mean, it's all becomes a logistics game more than, you know, a construction activity. Once I get them to this location, I can put posts in the ground. I can bolt stuff together.

• 21:03Speaker 03

  It's just a matter of doing all those things at the scale that we're talking about. And, and look, the, the great thing about our business is we have been mission focused on, on this since the beginning, right? We have specialized in solar for two decades and storage came in the last five years. And we've been focusing on how to do this more.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  You know, um, uh, more efficiently with everything that we do. And I think that is unique in when you think about, there's a lot of businesses out there that are, you know, diversified and they're thinking about, how do I, how do I build a, you know, uh, interstate transmission line and how do I build a pipeline and how do I build all these other things? And our business has always been about, how do we build a utility scale solar project? And how do we build it the most efficient possible? And I think that's why we're seeing a lot of these, you know, these small gains and

• 22:14Speaker 03

  that are necessary to meet the kind of business that we're in today. And, um, I think that, you know, when, when we start to see these projects grow, I think that we're gonna, you know, we're gonna have a lot of, um, opportunity to, to see these, um, these pieces of technology start to realize, right? I mean, I think we're, we're not, you know, I mean, on a one for one basis, you know, I can still use human capital and labor to produce faster than robotics that are out there in the market, but could I use robotics on a third shift?

• 22:59Speaker 03

  Or could I use, you know, could I do these things that really optimize speed? Um, I think that's really what we're gonna see.

• 23:08Shayle Kann?

  You mentioned the logistics orchestration. What I've seen that has always struck me at these big sites is the degree to which there's this, uh, this orchestration of equipment delivery as well and the timing of all the equipment delivery. And you see these, these situations where a project is chugging along, but it gets gummed up because this lay down yard doesn't have the torque tubes delivered at the right time or whatever it might be. How much, we, we've seen these kind of crazy swings in supply chains over the past few years broadly as a result of tariffs and all sorts of things. How much has that affected your ability to, to appropriately resource and predict timing of individual construction sites?

• 23:50Shayle Kann?

  Is it really, is it a well-oiled machine or is every site kind of like a tiny bit of chaos that has to get abstracted away at the site level?

• 23:58Speaker 03

  Well, I think, you know, the biggest impacts we've had to our business over the years has been supply chain disruption, right? I mean, we all lived through 22 and 23 when we saw massive disruption in the in the panel market and, you know, solar panels were stuck offshore, they were stuck at the border. We had projects that were, you know, built with racking systems and no panels. And that disruption is massive to our business, right? Because, you know, no manufacturer can can build their product without supply chain.

• 24:39Speaker 03

  And so you're right, making sure that we are our crews are adequately resourced because without the product there, it's one is detrimental to the schedule, but it's a huge amount of cost because we have resource, you know, we have people that are not as efficient as they because they're waiting for product or we're or we're, you know, demobilizing and remobilizing and it's expensive because you lose people, you have to retrain them, do things. So that's why I said logistics is one of the biggest, you know, challenges and one of the biggest opportunities.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  If we can keep the machine fed, we can, you know, we can build at high rates, right? And and speed, but if we don't have, you know, if we don't have a piece of material or a torque tube or something that we need at a certain time, then then the whole system gets slowed down and that that that means we're we're we're catching up through the rest of the project because we have to keep this these cycles and and process moving. And so You know, we, we have expended a lot of resources and a lot of time in developing

• 26:08Speaker 03

  great relationships with our vendor partners and recognizing what we need for, you know, to keep the supply chain moving. We're able to invest early on long lead time activities and items so that we make sure that product is delivered, you know, ahead of schedule because there is no just in time delivery on these projects. If you do just in time delivery, like that was the whole mantra of our, the commercial, my commercial life when I was building commercial construction is that you are on small constrained

• 26:48Speaker 03

  sites and you would deliver just in time because you couldn't move material around and you needed it there when you needed, the day before you needed to install it. If we do that on these projects, we're late because the momentum is going so fast that we need to deliver early and, you know, make sure that where we're delivering it is in, you know, in the general work location so that we're not double handling and having a lot of expense. But I would rather deliver onsite and double handle versus the concern

• 27:30Speaker 03

  about not having material when I needed it. So that's really what we're, what we're doing a lot of these days is spending a lot of time on thinking about what can we buy? What type of, you know, early, what type of strategic procurement can we do so that we have, you know, if we use 80% of the same cable on every project, then just buy

• 28:01Speaker 03

  You know, just buy out months, if not a year ahead. And so we make sure that at least the non-specialty items are there long before we need them. And then we're only buying the 20% of cable that is very unique to a specific job. And so, I mean, those are things that we're thinking about all the time as we scale the business. And we, you know, we have a lot more resources today in procurement, in pre-construction, and things that get us set up for success versus, you know, a prototype construction project where a project team is dedicated to all of the,

• 28:45Speaker 03

  you know, all the pre-construction and all the procurement. We have centralized pre-construction, we have centralized procurement. We are looking at our whole fleet of projects that we're building. And, you know, moving equipment and resources around as if it was all one cohesive project.

• 29:08Shayle Kann?

  This is, I guess, a good segue to another thing I was curious about, which is, we've talked about robotics, and that's one instantiation of AI, of the new AI wave. But I'm curious what other areas, if any, in your business you see either real movement as a result of AI or potential. So I could imagine system design, I could imagine logistics and supply chain. Like, what are the places where you see AI penetrating your business, apart from robotics?

• 29:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I think that's the interesting part of our business. And I've talked to a lot of people, and I seem to always get the question, how is AI affecting your business? And we're actually on both sides of it, right? AI is driving our business, the reason why, and AI, and then we are using the same technology that's driving our business to try to optimize our business. So we're looking at everything from what is the best plant optimization? Like, how do you lay out the logistics plan for a project? So if you can imagine doing simulation models on just...

• 30:20Speaker 03

  Just plant layout. Where do you park people to get them to the work site the most efficient? Because I've challenged our teams to think about how do we make every person on the site 15% more productive, right? Or find 15 minutes of more productivity out of every person by the... Because if you think about projects that are measured in square miles, where you park them, where you park employees and how you bus them, you know, because everybody checks in, so you're on the clock. You get into some sort of transportation, you go out to your work site,

• 31:02Speaker 03

  you know, and then, and then, you know, 20 minutes before the end of your shift, you get back on that bus and come back. Like, how do we figure out how to shorten those periods of time where we're, you know, people are working in their eight-hour day, but they're not actually productive because of just internal logistics, moving people around, where is their break area? Where are the... How close are the restrooms to their work area? I mean, all those things we're looking at and using AI to run those type of simulations so that we don't have to build it and then determine that we would have done it differently.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  We can run, we can put plans in, we can put in mobilization plans and, and do a lot of simulation around how best to move equipment. What happens if you, you know, what if you park them in the north corner versus the south corner? How close is their work area? What if you do two lay-down areas and not one lay-down area? How many moves will that eliminate in or minimize during the course of a project? And all of those can be done through simulations now, where we used to have to kind of measure them in real time.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  And so I think that's, that's where a lot of our technology team is focusing, because we collect so much data. On a given day of of production, how do we optimize it?

• 32:39Shayle Kann?

  Do you find that for things like that, you have to custom build your own tool to do that kind of a simulation? Obviously, you have proprietary data that you want to leverage, but is it, you know, can you can you use Claude code or whatever to go build something like that? Or are you guys building your own like bespoke vertical applications?

• 32:59Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I think they're a little bit of both, right? We have a we have a purpose-built internal platform that collects all of our performance data. So we built a program, we started about 12 years ago now and built a program called Sunscreen that collects all of our project data, so it gets collected in real time. We can take that data and we can run it through, yeah, you know, more conventional Claude platforms and other things that, you know, our team is using to to be able to extract the data and really tell us what we're seeing, you know, just run these simulations.

• 33:44Speaker 03

  But it's a it's a bit of a mix, right? We have to use, we use some commercially available tools and and some of the stuff that we we do internally. And this is where having a, you know, an internal software dev team has been really helpful. We have, because of Sunscreen and because of our vitals platform, which is an internal platform that we built to to manage plants, we collect so much data and we can run it through those platforms. And then we can run, you know, AI kind of overlays on top of them.

• 34:25Speaker 03

  I think that has allowed us to be a real, you know, kind of a technology leader in this space.

• 34:30Shayle Kann?

  All right, George, I'm going to let you go. Thank you so much for your time. Super interesting.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  I appreciate it. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you.

• 34:40Shayle Kann?

  George Hershman is the CEO of Solve Energy. This show is a production of Latitude Media. You can head over to latitudemedia.com for links to today's topics. This episode is produced by Max Savage Levenson. Mixing and theme song by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is our executive editor. I'm Shayle Khan, and this is Catalyst.