How Therapy-Speak is Destroying Relationships & Why We Need More Fun at Work

Like a supermarket, major airports are laid out and configured to try to get you to spend money while you are there. Listen and discover how they do it and when you are most likely to open your wallet at an airport. https://www.neatorama.com/2015/06/11/12-Behind-the-Scenes-Secrets-of-Airports/ How many times have you used "therapy-speak" to descibe someone - words like toxic or narcissist or psychopath? It’s a handy and very descriptive way to talk about someone – but there are potential problems with doing it. Those words are often used by psychologists to describe serious conditions that most of us are not equipped to diagnose. And there are other bigger concerns which you will hear about from my guest, Isabelle Morley. She is a clinical psychologist, couples therapist and a contributing author to Psychology Today. She is also author of the book called They're Not Gaslighting You: Ditch the Therapy Speak and Stop Hunting for Red Flags in Every Relationship (https://amzn.to/40xjTUr) Fun and work are a bit like oil and water – at least in many workplaces. But maybe if work was more fun, people would do better work, stay at their jobs longer and improve the quality of their lives. So says my guest, Bree Groff. She is a leading expert in company culture and a senior advisor at the global consultancy SYPartners. Her clients have included leaders at Target, Pfizer, Microsoft, Calvin Klein, NBCUniversal, and Alphabet. Bree is author of the book Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously) (https://amzn.to/4kwSklg) Listen as she explores ways to incorporate more fun at work and why it is such a great idea. UPS drivers drive a lot. And you just might find that some of the strategies and hacks they use to navigate around town could be useful to you. Listen as I reveal some driving tips from UPS. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/60556/18-secrets-ups-drivers PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! SHOPIFY: Shopify is the commerce platform for millions of businesses around the world! To start selling today, sign up for your $1 per month trial at⁠⁠⁠ https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠ INDEED: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ right now! QUINCE: Stick to the staples that last, with elevated essentials from Quince! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns! HERS: Hers is transforming women’s healthcare by providing access to affordable weight loss treatment plans, delivered straight to your door, if prescribed. Start your initial free online visit today at ⁠⁠⁠https://forhers.com/something⁠⁠⁠ DELL: Upgrade your learning experience during Dell Technologies’ Back to School event with AI PCs starting at $749.99! Discover a smarter way to learn at ⁠⁠⁠https://Dell.com/deals⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 0:30Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, the tricky ways airports get you to spend more money. Then, therapy speak. Should we be using therapy words in everyday conversation?

• 0:43Speaker 02

  I will say therapists do joke that we never have to tell people in our lives, "This is my boundary. You're being toxic. I think you're a narcissist," because it's not effective to do that. The main problem with how these words are used is that it lays unilateral blame on the other person.

• 0:59Mike Carruthers?

  Also, some great driving hacks from people who drive all day long. And can a workplace be fun and still be professional?

• 1:09Speaker 03

  I think what we've done is we've sort of equated professionalism with seriousness. But ultimately, I really believe that people want to enjoy their days. It's not a controversial thing to say that people enjoy laughing.

• 1:24Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know.

• 1:29Mike Carruthers?

  Now here's something that might be worth a minute of your time. How would you like $1,000 to spend on shopping? Especially with the holidays coming. Well, the people behind Shopify have a shopping site called shop.com. And to celebrate the new shop.com, they're giving away $1 million in Shop Cash. But not to one person. A thousand people will each win $1,000 in Shop Cash. And shop.com is actually a really clever idea. It brings lots of different stores together in one place. So instead of bouncing around from website to website, you can search across stores, find what you're looking for,

• 2:14Mike Carruthers?

  and track your orders all in one place. Clothes, electronics, gifts, things for the house, all kinds of stuff. And whether you win or not, it's worth knowing. But with 1,000 chances to win $1,000...

• 2:29Mike Carruthers?

  I'd certainly take a look. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 2:54Speaker 04

  Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life today. Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

• 3:07Mike Carruthers?

  We all know that stores are designed and laid out to get you to spend more money. But did you know airports are as well? Hi and welcome to this episode of Something You Should Know. In airport lingo, the time between when a passenger clears security and boards the plane, that's called dwell time. This is when passengers are most likely to spend, especially during the crucial golden hour, the first 60 minutes beyond security, when passengers are in a more self-indulgent mood. The display boards listing flight information are there in part to keep you updated on

• 3:46Mike Carruthers?

  your flight, but also to reassure you that you have plenty of time to wander and shop. One hour of dwell time is great, but two hours, that's even better. So airports are constantly trying to get people through security faster. Well, that's not always been my experience, but the effort is there. One study found that for every 10 minutes a passenger spends in the security line, they spend 30% less money on retail items at the airport. Several years ago, the TSA announced it would give $15,000 to the person who came up with the best idea for speeding up security. Well, I have some ideas.

• 4:30Mike Carruthers?

  Shops and restaurants are often clustered together to evoke sort of a Main Street feel because people like to shop in more bustling environments. And you'll notice that while the floors in airports, for most of the airport, are hard surface, like linoleum, the gate waiting areas are carpeted. This is an attempt to make holding areas more relaxing, like your own living room, because happy, relaxed travelers spend more money. And that is something you should know.

• 5:04Mike Carruthers?

  You often hear people talk about other people using psychological terms. They'll say things like, "Oh, she's so bipolar," or "He's such a narcissist," or "Those people are so toxic." And those are very clear and descriptive terms, but should we be throwing around these rather clinical sounding words in casual conversation? It seems those words can cause some problems that you may not realize. That's according to my guest, Isabel Morley. She is a clinical psychologist and couples therapist. She is a contributing author to Psychology Today and has been featured in all sorts of media.

• 5:46Mike Carruthers?

  She's author of a book called, "They're Not Gaslighting You: Ditch the Therapy Speak and Stop Hunting for Red Flags in Every Relationship." Hi Isabel, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Hi, thank you so much for having me on.

• 6:01Mike Carruthers?

  Sure. So, let's define some terms here. What do you mean by "therapy speak," and what's the problem with using "therapy speak" when you're not in therapy? And just help me understand this issue.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Therapy speak is when people take clinical terms, often used in therapy, whether they are disorders, or terms like boundaries and holding space, and bring it into their everyday conversations with people. And so, sort of apply all of this therapy knowledge into their everyday lives. And while that can be a really great thing, because it helps people understand and explain and get their needs met, it can also be very easily misapplied and lead to a lot of problems.

• 6:43Mike Carruthers?

  You know, I hadn't really thought much about this till I saw your book, but when you hear people throw around those clinical terms, "Well, he's a narcissist," or, you know, "She's toxic."

• 6:56Mike Carruthers?

  Those are pretty powerful words that have a real impact.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  That's the problem is that these are clinical terms and we give a lot of deference to medical terminology. And people tend to respect and listen to others when they use those words, even if they're being used incorrectly. And I make a strong case that I don't think these therapy terms even need to leave the therapy room. And certainly not to be misused and weaponized in our relationships.

• 7:26Mike Carruthers?

  Well, these therapy terms have been around forever. But why is it now, why is it now that people are using them in everyday conversation to describe other people?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  I do hold therapists a little bit responsible for the proliferation of therapy speak. Because we have introduced terms as we educate our patients and we try to help them understand their experiences. And perhaps not with enough caveats of when and how those words should be used. But I will say therapists do joke that we never have to tell people in our lives, this is my boundary, you're being toxic. I think you're a narcissist because it's not effective to do that, but that is what many people are now doing.

• 8:08Mike Carruthers?

  And why is it not effective? If someone is a narcissist or someone is a psychopath, I mean, why not call it out?

• 8:16Speaker 02

  The main problem with how these words are used is that it lays unilateral blame on the other person. And so rarely is it the case that one person is the only objectively wrong person in that dynamic relationship or interaction. Outside of abusive relationships, both people contribute to communication issues. Both people have to negotiate boundaries, be flexible, work on emotion regulation skills. But when you call somebody a disorder or you label them as toxic or a red flag, it really points the finger and says, you're the whole problem.

• 8:51Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, but here's the thing, if you say, "That Bob, he's so toxic." I know exactly what you mean. I mean, it's a good term to use. Well, I may not know exactly what you mean, but I have a pretty good idea of what you mean, and I don't think any other word would be as good as that. So I get why people use it because they're very descriptive. I mean, I know what a narcissist is. So if you tell me Bob's a narcissist, I know exactly what you're talking about.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  And here's the thing, I agree with you, and I am certainly someone who has done it myself, especially when I was younger, because these words communicate something very quickly and very clearly. And especially when you're talking with friends and family, it's nice to have a quick, relatable point to make, and everybody understands what you're saying. Therapy speak and its misuse and weaponization is this next level where people are using these words directly, accusatory, in their relationships with their parents, their friends, their coworkers, their bosses, their spouses, and not just sort of trying to describe an experience, but really labeling and accusing the other person of being this full-blown disorder or term.

• 10:07Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it also seems that when, and I think what you're talking about is when people use this therapy speak in a negative way. There are words in therapy speak that are nice, you know? He's very compassionate, he's an empath, he's a... Those aren't the words you're talking about, are they? Or are they?

• 10:29Speaker 02

  You know, no, I haven't really addressed those terms, but you're right. There is a lot of positive therapy speak. I'm thinking of validation being a big one that I think is fantastic. But when people are using therapy speak and misapplying, it tends to be to avoid taking responsibility for their own part of the problem. And my concern is that it stunts people's own self-growth because they're saying, "This person is so terrible in this way, and I'm gonna focus on that." "They're a narcissist, they're a sociopath, they lack these abilities and skills, and they're not doing any self-reflection and doing any self-growth that would benefit them for their future relationships."

• 11:11Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, it kind of becomes a permanent label. Like, if I call you a narcissist, or I call you a psychopath...

• 11:20Mike Carruthers?

  That becomes your label. That's who you are. That's who you think I think you are. And chances are, just because I called you a narcissist, it's probably not true.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  For the most part, no. I mean, therapists joke about this all the time, that there's just no way that everyone's boss and everyone's ex is a narcissist, right? Statistically speaking, it's up to 5 or 6% of the population at most. So it's just not possible. But it's definitely tempting to have the escape route of calling another person something that is so definitive and absolves us of blame. But then it leads to this question of, if you think that this person you're in a relationship with is a narcissist, a sociopath, has bipolar, is borderline, what does that mean for you? Telling them that they have this big problem and expecting them to change it, to take responsibility and apologize. I think people

• 12:17Speaker 02

  don't realize that the work doesn't stop at identifying a label.

• 12:22Mike Carruthers?

  Well, that is such a great point, because if I declare that you have this disorder, well, now what? I mean, I put this label on you, and so what are we gonna do with it?

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Right. And then anything the other person does could feed into that conclusion very easily. So they have to walk on eggshells to not give you any more evidence for your conclusion about who they are, what disorder they have. And the point that I make to my clients all the time is, if you have genuine concerns that a person you love has a disorder, or is abusive or toxic in this way, you have to think about how you're gonna approach that with this person. And if you want to be in a relationship with them, when so often I see people sort of lob these accusations and expect the other person to just live with it, like you said.

• 13:10Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, I'm perfect, and you're a mess, and so now what are we gonna do with that? But you have to, I'm sure you understand, the appeal of doing that, of labeling someone else as having the problem, it takes a lot off your shoulders. So there is real appeal there.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Every grad student will tell you that we have all gone through the phase when we learn about how to approach diagnostic impressions. There is this immediate temptation to view everyone in your life through a clinical lens. And finally, you have an explanation for every time somebody hurt you, disappointed you, made you feel a certain way. You can label them, you can explain them in this pathology that makes you feel better. However, grad students are taught out of doing that in years and years from their professors. Whereas now, people are learning these terms on social media. They think they're experts and nobody is talking them out of using this clinical lens.

• 14:10Mike Carruthers?

  Well, and some of those words, I mean, you call somebody a psychopath or a sociopath. That's some pretty heavy hitting there that, boy, that, I mean, that carries a lot when you throw big words like that around.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  If you think somebody you're in a close relationship with is a sociopath, you need to be finding a way to get out of that relationship.

• 14:32Mike Carruthers?

  I would think so, yeah. Real fast, but...

• 14:38Speaker 02

  As fast as possible.

• 14:39Mike Carruthers?

  Since it is so tempting to think that way, to label people because of their behavior while they're a narcissist, or they're toxic, or whatever, what's a better way to think?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Can I tell you, I think the better way and the most unsatisfying answer, which is to accept and even embrace how complicated and messy and imperfect humans are, that even humans who are well within the normal range of psychological and emotional functioning are going to do pretty terrible things to each other sometimes. And that's not necessarily pathology, that is situational, that is a skill deficit, that's a growth opportunity, right? But we have to understand that humans, even at their best, do a lot of bad things. And we need to figure out how to work with people and work with ourselves to improve and continue to communicate.

• 15:32Mike Carruthers?

  So let's go down that path for a little bit. People, even in the range of normal, do horrible things to each other. Like, well, I don't want to hear that.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Me neither. Listen, if I could find a pathological reason why someone's hurt me, I would love to have that explanation as opposed to finding out that they just didn't consider me, that they didn't care about my feelings, that they put themselves first in a way that really made me feel unimportant. That's a terrible way to feel. So if there's an out to that feeling and I can call them a narcissist, of course, I would want to do that. But the truth is, people do hurt each other. They do put themselves first sometimes, and that's not a reason to pathologize them. That's a reason to look at how we can continue to grow and change. And there's a reason to have compassion for ourselves, too, when we are the person who missteps and hurts another.

• 16:26Mike Carruthers?

  We're talking about therapy speak and reasons why we shouldn't use it in everyday conversation. My guest is Isabel Morley. She's author of the book, "They're Not Gaslighting You: Ditch the Therapy Speak and Stop Hunting for Red Flags in Every Relationship."

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 17:12Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors, great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 17:41Mike Carruthers?

  So Isabel, it's one thing to say, okay, we shouldn't call people these names. We shouldn't use these terms in labeling people. But when the urge strikes, what do you suggest we do instead?

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Love this question because using these words is a way to avoid being vulnerable. And therapists always want to bring people back to their deep emotional experience and when it's appropriate and safe to be vulnerable with the people in their lives. So instead of saying, "You're such a narcissist for showing up late to my work party. You never think about me and you're so self-absorbed." How about try saying, "Wow, I was really embarrassed that everybody had their spouse there and that you walked in 20 minutes late and didn't even seem to notice that I was standing by myself and looking pretty anxious. That really hurt my feelings."

• 18:30Mike Carruthers?

  I wonder too, what those words do to the person they're aimed at. In other words, if you call me a psychopath, well, I'm going to respond to that. I'm not going to like you very much for calling me that name. It's not a benign thing to call me names and I will respond, either verbally or tell myself something in my own head.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Absolutely. You're going to think it's unfair. You're going to want to explain yourself. You're going to want to pick your own term to throw back in their direction, right? How borderline of you to get this upset about something this small. That's classic. And again, it tends to create this one-upping of scorekeeping, of labeling, and everyone is missing the point, which is that people have hurt feelings or there are really problematic patterns in a relationship that are not being addressed. Or there is pathology, but the way people are approaching, how they express their concerns that it exists, make it impossible for the other person to actually consider if they need to get help.

• 19:37Mike Carruthers?

  When I think of times that those words come up, that therapy speak, psychobabble-y stuff comes up in a conversation, it's often between people talking about someone else rather than to their face. You know, that Fred, man, he is such a, he is so toxic. And maybe that's okay because, you know, we're not throwing it in his face. But I wonder what that does, if there's an effect there. It kind of normalizes that type of speech around the kitchen table.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  It definitely makes it seem appropriate to use these words casually. It makes everyone think that they are an expert in using the words correctly. And we all want to be part of the zeitgeist. We all want to be up with the language that our peers are using. So I think it encourages more and more use of it. And again, to be honest, I don't have a huge problem with the more casual use when people aren't being incredibly serious or accusatory or even weaponizing these words. My concerns really began when I saw couples coming into my practice, calling me beforehand to let me know, just a heads up, my partner is a narcissist or an undiagnosed sociopath, or having them in session, say it to each other in front of me.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  And then I realized just how out of hand this had all gotten.

• 20:57Mike Carruthers?

  Wait, really? People call you ahead of time and say, just to let you know, my partner is a undiagnosed sociopath?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yes. And I've had people say they have talked to their individual therapist, they've come to this conclusion, they just want me to have that information going into the session because obviously I will need to help fix their partner for them. And I'll tell you, every single time, it has not been accurate.

• 21:26Mike Carruthers?

  Every single time?

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Every single time. And again, this is where I hold therapists responsible because we should not be diagnosing people we have not met. And the joy of being a couples therapist is you get to see both people in the room explaining their emotions and their experiences and you see how reasonable or unreasonable they are. Whereas if you're getting one side of the story, it's easy to think the other person is a total monster.

• 21:55Mike Carruthers?

  Well, as you said in the beginning, when you label someone, when you label your partner or someone else, your friend or whoever the conflict is with, when you use one of those fairly powerful clinical terms, you're putting the blame on them, that the reason there's a problem is because you're bipolar, you're toxic, you're a narcissist, whatever it is, the blame is 100% you.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  That's everyone's favorite go-to move. I think everyone who comes to couples therapy is secretly hoping that the therapist will say, "Yep, the other person's the problem. Let's take care of them and send you on your way." Because it's hard to see our own flaws. It's hard to see the ways in which we're contributing to the problem because, and I really believe this, we're all doing our best. Even the sociopaths out there are doing their best to operate in this world in the ways that make sense to them. And because we're doing our best, we cannot easily see how we could be contributing to the issue at hand.

• 22:59Mike Carruthers?

  So I'm curious what the procedure is. Like, let's say, let's say you really, turns out you really are a psychopath, or a narcissist, or you're bipolar. And I don't mean to laugh because we've been talking about using those terms when they don't apply. But if they actually did apply, what's the procedure? Because it seems like you're not going to really be able to fix that in couples therapy with your partner. Maybe that's something you go do on your own or with another therapist or something.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yes. And this is the way in which I'm concerned that we have lost the value of accurate diagnosis, because knowing that someone you love, your partner, has a disorder should set both of you free. It can help them get the right treatment, which, yes, should be with their own therapist, their own prescriber, their groups, whatever that looks like. And it can help explain parts of the dynamic that might be difficult in your relationship and shed light onto what might be going on for the two of you. But it can't just be solved in a couples context.

• 24:04Mike Carruthers?

  You know, it occurs to me that, you know, you could see something on Instagram or Facebook that, you know, describes a narcissist, and you see three signs of narcissism, and you go, "Oh, that's my significant other." And you, so you therefore, even in your own head, if you don't say anything out loud, in your own head, you have decided this person is a narcissist. And from there, it seems like now, because you've labeled them that, you're constantly looking for evidence to support that opinion, that confirmation bias of you find things to confirm what you've decided is true.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yes. You filter all the rest of the incoming data to pull out evidence that reinforces your belief, and you ignore any data that would contradict it. So confirmation bias is so powerful when you have decided on a label, and it leads to increased vigilance so that you are really actively seeking out data to confirm your belief, making it almost impossible for someone to not appear like a narcissist.

• 25:15Mike Carruthers?

  So, therapy speak, these clinical terms that we've been talking about, how did they get out of the clinic? Because we didn't used to hear people say these things a lot. People didn't throw those terms around as much as they do now. I imagine social media has a role to play in this.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  And this is the way in which I appreciate social media, because it's lowered the stigma around therapy and clinical terminology in a way that has helped people understand themselves and seek help more openly, whereas in the past, you would just say somebody was quote-unquote "crazy" and leave it at that. But yes, now there is much more openness to talking about these words and terms in a way that has been really complicated.

• 26:00Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, because it's good in one way and not so good in another.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  And I argue that a pendulum can swing too far in the other direction. I don't think it was good when we refused to talk about depression and anxiety or encourage people to seek help, and we had taken a good thing too far, where now we over-pathologize people in our lives and ourselves in a way that gets in the way of a happy, functional life.

• 26:25Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it seems to me that expectations are different, that people expect their lives to go better than they probably could ever go, but that's the expectation, because that's what we see when we see people on social media. They never post their horrible days, they only post when things are going great.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  How many influencers do you see on Instagram and TikTok who seem so happy with their lives, who have the perfect marriage and who never fight with their kids? And that's the expectation now that that's what you should be able to have. You should wake up every day feeling rejuvenated and ready to tackle work. And if you don't feel that way, you must be depressed or your partner must be a sociopath or there is something pathologically wrong if you are not living this wonderful, perfect life that it seems like everybody else can achieve.

• 27:15Mike Carruthers?

  Well, this, this therapy speak stuff, it, I mean, it is so tempting to use those labels. And you said you've done it, even though you now try not to, but I've done it and I, it's hard not to, but I think at least we can be a little more careful about it. I've been talking to Isabel Morley. She is a clinical psychologist and couples therapist, and the name of her book is They're Not Gaslighting You: Ditch the Therapy Speak and Stop Hunting for Red Flags in Every Relationship. There's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 28:15Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors, great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 28:51Mike Carruthers?

  Traditionally, fun and work are almost opposites. Work, well, that's something you do that is serious. It requires your full attention. To incorporate fun into work would be a distraction. It would interrupt the flow. It would hamper your work and make you less productive. Still, for several years now that I'm aware of, there have been efforts made to incorporate more fun into people's work. And it has met with some resistance. Probably because, what would be the payoff? Why would a business want their employees to have fun at work? To what benefit? They can have fun outside of work.

• 29:35Mike Carruthers?

  If they're having fun at work, well, then they're not working. And we can't have that. Well, here with a fresh look at this whole idea of making fun part of work, and the reasons why it is a good idea, is Bree Groff. She is a leading voice in the future of work and company culture. She's a senior advisor at the global consultancy SY Partners. Her clients have included Target, Pfizer, Microsoft, Calvin Klein, NBC, Universal, and more. Bree is author of a book called, "Today Was Fun: A Book About Work." Seriously. Hi, Bree, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 30:15Speaker 03

  Hi, Mike, how are you?

• 30:16Mike Carruthers?

  I'm great. And so, what is the purpose? Why are we talking about this? What would be the benefit of incorporating fun into work? Why do it? What's the goal?

• 30:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, two things. First is that when you overwork, you underlive. And we only get so many hours and days on the planet. And so, the first thing I want people to know is that there's always an opportunity cost to anything, right? But especially when we prioritize our work over our lives.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  And the second thing is that the quality of our working days really matter. This has been my mission in my career with the premise that when you try to get to Friday, when you try and wish away the work week, you're also just wishing away your life, that we only get so many Mondays. And so the quality of our workdays matter, and I believe they should be fun.

• 31:15Mike Carruthers?

  To which many people would say, yeah, well, fun sound, maybe it's your job, but it's not much fun here. It's this is, we leave fun at the door.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  Yes. So I hear two super common arguments about this, two ends of the spectrum. One is like, well, work is called work for a reason. It's drudgery. It's why we get paid because it's painful and people wouldn't do it otherwise. That's one end of the spectrum. The other end I hear is, oh, work should be your life's purpose and your calling. And if it's not, you're doing it wrong. And I'd actually reject both of those ends of the spectrum. I mean, I understand why people feel them both. But also I think there's a simpler middle ground where work could just simply be fun, could just simply be a nice way to spend our time on the planet. Because work fundamentally is fun.

• 32:08Speaker 03

  It's nothing more than creating value, creating value that people then exchange money for. And it's fun to make things that people enjoy. It's fun to build with others. It's fun to show off our skills and build new skills. So when we simmer work down to the basics, it is, it is fundamentally fun. What I'm trying to do is get a lot of the other cluttery stuff away from it. You know, performance reviews that suck the soul out of you and all the rest of it.

• 32:37Mike Carruthers?

  But whether or not your workplace is fun, that's a tone that gets set from the top. I mean, I've worked at jobs in different companies, same job, but the experience can be very different if the tone is set at the top that it's okay to be light and fun.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  Yes, it's incredibly important because when you see an executive team laughing in meetings and smiling and not taking themselves so seriously, that absolutely sets a culture for fun and enjoying your days. But even if you don't have that, I still think it's possible, I know it's possible, to create sort of a corner of organizational sunlight, almost like you're a cat. If you ever see cats, they squeeze themselves into the one sliver of sunlight in an apartment or a house. That's what people can do for themselves, is how can you create, even for your own working days, even if you have one or two

• 33:34Speaker 03

  direct reports of small team, how can you make life a little bit more joyful within your sphere of influence, even despite anything else that's going on in the business?

• 33:47Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it would seem before anything much can happen here, you would have to get yourself into that mindset. You have to actually believe that work can be fun, and then think of ways to make it fun. And can you, just an example or two of like, how do you make work fun?

• 34:06Speaker 03

  I'm a big fan of mischief at work, just like no micro mischief. So this could look anything like, let's say you order umbrella picks for your workplace, and as you have your morning coffee, you put a little umbrella in yours and give one to a colleague. And now, you're not having mediocre office coffee, you're having an umbrella drink. And it doesn't slow down the day, doesn't threaten anybody's bottom line, it's just a little bit of mischief and delight. Another example, you might, you might ask your team, oh, we have this problem. Normally, you might say, okay, let's just figure out some solutions, there's this inventory thing going on. But instead, maybe you say,

• 34:53Speaker 03

  What is the most hilarious way to solve our problem? And it opens up a whole new line of thinking. And it's just honestly more fun to work and run businesses like that. You know, lastly, I always think connection is such a great antidote to not having fun at work. If you can like the people that you're with, as you said, it almost sometimes the nature of the work isn't quite as important. So just learn something about a colleague. And some of my favorite questions are ask somebody's middle name. It's not too intrusive of a question, but it's also kind of intimate in a way because you hear family histories, you can make someone blush, or maybe you find out what their pets' names are.

• 35:38Speaker 03

  And all of a sudden, now you know that they have a dog named Rover and you get to see pictures on their phone and you have a connection that you didn't before. So those are some sort of micro joy, micro fun places to start.

• 35:52Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, as you were saying that, it seems like you would have to navigate the people that you're working with because I can think of people who would, who would find putting an umbrella in their drink would find that quite charming. I know other people who would go, hey, what are you doing? You know, and get upset about it. So you kind of have to tread lightly, it seems.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Look, you're going to pick your battles and I'm not trying to get anybody fired. So maybe if the place you need to start is just wearing fancy socks, maybe they have a little flamingo print on them, like then you start there. Whatever sort of smallest version of breaking the shell of formality and professionalism is a, is a really, really good place to start. And I'll also share the story because I get, I get that question a lot, like, oh, we couldn't do this in our business. It's much too professional and formal. And so then I tell the story of what surgeons will sometimes do in the OR, which is arguably

• 36:56Speaker 03

  the most serious of all workplaces when you have someone's life on the line in front of you. So there's a great example from Dr. Peter Attia, the author of Outlive. He tells the story of when he was a Johns Hopkins surgeon.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  Doing kidney transplants, he and his team would listen to clips of Napoleon Dynamite while they were doing surgeries. And if you don't know Napoleon Dynamite, it's a throwback 2004, very ridiculous, dry, hilarious film. It would just have, these clips would have them laughing all throughout the kidney transplants. And you would think, wait, did it compromise the outcomes? Did they live? Like, did the surgeries turn out okay? And he said, actually, over the course of three days, they did 13 kidney transplants, listening to Napoleon Dynamite, and every one had remarkable outcomes. And so I shared that story because if surgeons

• 37:54Speaker 03

  in the OR can have fun, then we definitely can in a budget meeting or whatever feels very formal. So you, you work your way up to it.

• 38:05Mike Carruthers?

  If there's no harm done, then why would anybody object to it, except that I think there are those people who just at their core believe that work is no place for fun. And so, again, it, it does depend on the people.

• 38:20Speaker 03

  People will have different appetites for this, and that's okay. Although I will say, I have never met a leader, especially in all of my years consulting, who didn't a little bit want to have fun. And sometimes it just takes the right kind of fun, or the right kind of, like, nudge, or the right kind of joke to get someone a little bit out of their shell. But ultimately, I really believe that people want to enjoy their days. People, it's not a controversial thing to say that people enjoy laughing. And I think what we've

• 38:58Speaker 03

  done is we've sort of equated professionalism with seriousness. And when we really think about what it means to be professional, it's doing high-quality work on time, you know, being reliable, being kind, to be able to say, like, we get all of our work done, and we have time for a laugh.

• 39:19Mike Carruthers?

  So you make a good case for having fun at work because having fun is fun. And so that's good for morale. It's good for people. People like to laugh. But what about benefits to the business? You mentioned those doctors performing surgeries and the outcomes were better when they were having fun and laughing. But are there real substantial benefits to any business for doing this?

• 39:43Speaker 03

  There's two big benefits. One I find more valuable than the other, but I'll cite both. The first is employee engagement drives performance. And this has been studied all up, down, left and right. You can find Gallup's research on this is prolific over the years. Research that having a best friend at work improves business outcomes. So there's definitely a business case to be made. That if people are engaged, connected, enjoying themselves, that that drives performance. And intuitively, it's actually pretty easy to see that if people are feeling confident and comfortable, they're more likely to share their best ideas, to really care about supporting

• 40:27Speaker 03

  colleagues and doing what they need to do to be a good member of a team. So there's that benefit. And that is all over the place. You can find it in every business book ever written about culture. I actually think the existential argument is one we're not talking about enough and is actually far more important. You only get so many Mondays. You, every day that you spend at work is a day that comes from the finite bank of days that you have on the planet. And when we are doing no more than trying to get through the week because work is extracting

• 41:07Speaker 03

  from us and we feel, we hold a mental model that we just empty ourselves for our employer so that we can refill ourselves on the weekend. That leaves us in a place where we are enjoying two sevenths of our lives each week at best. And I don't think that's okay. I it's not what I want for myself. It's not what I'd want for my daughter. Also, it's not what I'd want for any of the team, the people and the teams that I've led. I would never want them to feel that their existence was only input to the company's bottom line. I also want them to have enjoyed their days at the company because that is valuable, too.

• 41:50Speaker 03

  And ultimately, customers provide a share of wallet, which is important. It drives the business. But employees are devoting a grand portion of their lives. And I think we don't, we haven't valued it to date in the way that we should have.

• 42:05Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I like what you say. And you had talked about this earlier, that there's this image people have that, you know, your work has to be your calling and, and, you know, your passion and do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life. And, yeah, but that just isn't practical for so many jobs.

• 42:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:27Mike Carruthers?

  And it, and it makes people feel like somehow they're a loser because they're, they don't have this passion. But I, and most people probably don't have that passion in the way that it's been written about. And this is something else to replace that because that's not, it doesn't, doesn't exist in a lot of places that is much more realistic and has clear benefits and outcomes that trying to find your passion is never going to do. It's just not.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's too much. And some people on this planet will feel like that. And that is beautiful for them. But I also want the barista serving coffees to feel delight in making latte art. To me, that impact is plenty. And so it's important to take down the wild expectations that every day has to be joyful or purposeful because the truth is it's, you know, I'm only shooting for most days. My motto, especially on hard days, is most things, most days. That's actually plenty. If most days, at the end of the day, you can say, hmm, today was fun, then I think you've won.

• 43:43Mike Carruthers?

  What are some other ways that people can push the idea of fun into work without, you know, ruffling anybody's feathers, but just kind of push it along?

• 43:54Speaker 03

  Okay, here's a few other simple ones. Our language really matters at work. So, one thing I recommend is saying, "Happy Monday, Happy Tuesday, Happy Wednesday, Happy Thursday." Normally, we just say "Happy Friday" with the understanding that, "Oh, good, it's the last day of the week." But if you are alive and well and at work, then it's a happy day. So, try. Try a happy Monday. A few other things you can do. Sometimes, the best way to have a good day is to make someone else's day and enjoy seeing a smile on someone else's face. One way you could do that is sending what I call a love bubble, which is a short

• 44:39Speaker 03

  little email message, could be two lines long, just to say something that you noticed and appreciated about them recently. Like, "Hey, Joe, you were super masterful in that meeting. I don't know how you got everybody all aligned, but it was awesome." That's it. And they're going to think about that for the rest of the day. You will have made their day, and you're also starting to perpetuate a positive feedback of, "We say nice things to each other," and build each other up. Another in that vein, if you've ever seen a political thriller where there's a fixer and they say to the president, "Consider it handled." Well, wouldn't you love if someone did that for you at work? Like, you've got

• 45:24Speaker 03

  all these things on your plate, and someone says, "Hey, that presentation, consider it handled." I would go and I'd want to kiss that person if HR wasn't, you know, nearby.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  So why don't you do that for somebody else? Hey, I got the draft of that thing that we need to do. Hey, I'm gonna look at the inventory or finance numbers for you. Consider it handled. And then just see what a smile that puts on someone else's face? And also how much it'll do for you, too?

• 45:56Mike Carruthers?

  Is there ever a concern that once you start bringing fun into the workplace, the more you do that, the more people expect more of that? You know, if you, if you for fun, bring in donuts for everybody one day, then next week, isn't it kind of expected? Well, where's the donuts? Like, you have to be careful with that.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  I do sometimes get this question, both from leaders and employees. Leaders worry, well, if I'm generous and fun, then everyone's gonna screw around and not get any work done. And then where does that leave me? Team members think, well, conversely, if I'm doing my most brilliant work and over-delivering for the boss, then they're gonna expect that of me every time. And so it creates this culture where everybody's holding on a little bit and holding back. What I have found to be so revolutionary, when one party starts with an act of generosity, more often than not, that's received with gratitude, appreciation,

• 47:04Speaker 03

  and wanting to reciprocate.

• 47:06Mike Carruthers?

  I wonder if there are businesses or departments within businesses where this wouldn't work because the work tends to be, I don't know, negative. Like, you know, call centers where people are calling all day to complain that, and the calls are constant. But it's hard to work in fun when you're just dealing with people who are screaming at you. Is there any hope there?

• 47:32Speaker 03

  There is hope, absolutely. And it comes from diversifying your sources of joy at work. One of my first consulting clients was the call center of a cancer center. So they were receiving the calls from either people with cancer or people whose loved ones had cancer, who were desperately trying to get themselves or their loved one to be seen by a doctor. It wasn't always possible. There wasn't always a match with a doctor. This is life or death situations. And so these people were being screamed at. That's why we were there to try and look at the culture and see how we could support these people the best we could.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  The bright spot of that culture is that those coworkers were so immensely kind to each other, supportive of each other. When one person had to just go outside, get a little air, everyone knew exactly what to do to help that person. Some people needed to be left alone. Some people needed a friend in that moment. The break room was such a source of joy and camaraderie. So if it's not the work itself, which by the way, was highly fulfilling to them when they could match a doctor and a patient, but if it's not the work itself, then it's the colleagues. If it's not the colleagues, then it's the sense of growth.

• 48:59Speaker 03

  It's realizing that there's so many ways to spot and amplify the joy in our work. Sometimes it just takes a hot second to take a deep breath and realize that it's there. It's there for the taking. We just have to look for it.

• 49:15Mike Carruthers?

  Well, ask anybody who's been working for a long time, you know, what was your favorite place to work? It's always going to have been the place that had fun and it sticks with you and you look back fondly, but also probably find you did some of your best work. Bree Groff has been my guest. She is author of the book, "Today Was Fun: A Book About Work, Seriously." And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Bree, thank you for coming on and talking about this. It was great.

• 49:46Speaker 03

  It was wonderful. So, thank you.

• 49:52Mike Carruthers?

  UPS drivers know a thing or two about driving because, well, that's what they do: drive. So maybe we could learn from their knowledge. And one thing UPS drivers try to do is not turn left. Why? Well, by obsessively tracking their drivers, as UPS is known to do, they found that a significant cause of idling time resulted from drivers waiting to make left turns, essentially going against the flow of traffic. That's according to a former UPS public relations manager. So drivers are instead encouraged to drive in right-hand loops to get to their destination. Consequently, many of the routes are designed

• 50:35Mike Carruthers?

  to avoid left turns, and UPS says the policy has saved millions of gallons of gasoline and reduced carbon emissions. Another thing drivers are encouraged not to do is drive in reverse. According to a UPS spokesman, "We generally will tell them that the first rule of backing up is to avoid it." The way UPS sees it is that backing up increases the likelihood that a driver will unintentionally bump into something or someone. Again, advice we could all use. And that is something you should know. And so now that this episode is over, take a moment while you're thinking of it, it's still fresh on your mind, and hit the share

• 51:17Mike Carruthers?

  button on your phone or wherever you're listening, and send this episode to someone you know, and that would really help us out. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 51:29Speaker 00

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• 51:57Speaker 06

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