Mark Manson’s 3 Harsh Truths About Love EP 1485

The Summit of Greatness is back! Buy your tickets today – summitofgreatness.com – Mark is the three-time #1 New York Times bestselling author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, as well as other titles. His books have sold around 20 million copies, been translated into more than 65 languages, and reached number one in more than a dozen countries. In 2023, a feature film about his life and ideas was released worldwide by Universal Pictures. In this episode you will learn,Why the idea of "soulmates" and finding "the one" is a misguided approach to relationshipsThe factors that are truly crucial for building lasting and meaningful connections with partners. Strategies for couples to maintain a sense of independence while nurturing a deep emotional bondAddressing the possibility of falling in love with someone who holds conflicting life goals or beliefs and discussing methods to foster understanding and growthThe importance of creating a safe space for open and honest conversations in relationships and how to achieve thisFor more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1485For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960Want more relationship episodes like this one? Sheleana Aiyana - https://link.chtbl.com/1436-podLewis Howes solo episode on relationships - https://link.chtbl.com/1450-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection. I've got an invitation for you. Join me at this year's Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio to unleash your true greatness. This is the one time a year that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful transformative weekend. People come from all over the world and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Josprey Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Sincero, and many more. You'll also be able to dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials.

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  So if you're ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com/summit2023. Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I'll see you there.

• 1:01Mark Manson?

  Generally, that is the definition of a toxic relationship, is a relationship where love is present, but respect and/or trust is not. But the love kind of, it's almost like a drug. It's in a lot of ways, we psychologically behave with love the way addicts behave with their substance, which is we justify it, we delude ourselves, we lie to ourselves. And so we have to be very careful. Love can be an absolutely incredible thing. It's one of life's greatest experiences, but proceed with caution.

• 1:30Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 1:55Lewis Howes?

  Mark, you are a three-time number one New York Times bestselling author of one of the hit books, The Subtle Art of Not Giving Up, as well as many other titles. You've sold over 20 million copies, been translated into more than, I think, 65 or 75 languages now. And you've reached number one in more than a dozen countries. You've got a film that you've put out that was worldwide released by Universal Pictures, and you've got so much more great content. Thank you, my man, for being here. Good to be back, sir. Very excited. I was just telling you earlier that you are looking healthier than ever before, happier, and healed and whole than ever before. And as the guy who taught

• 2:36Lewis Howes?

  us how to not care about certain things, but really care, but really care about the most important things. Sure. I'm so grateful that you are in a healthy, whole place for your life, because I remember saying to you, it was like, a few years ago, at kind of the, not the peak, but at the height of this book's popularity, probably, and a lot going on all at once, you didn't look energetically as healthy as you are now. No. And I want to talk about that at some point in this conversation, about how success is not always tied to happiness, health, peace, love, and fulfillment. Of course. But what I would love to talk about first is about love and relationships, because

• 3:21Lewis Howes?

  you've been in a healthy, happy relationship, at least based on the video I watched of yours with your wife, for seven-plus years. You've written a book about love and relationships. You've written tons of articles about it. You've been single, you've been in relationships in the past, and now you're in a happy relationship. And I wanted to ask you, what is the thing that you believe most people get wrong about love, and about happy, conscious love?

• 3:53Mark Manson?

  I think the biggest mistake people make is they assume that love is always a good thing. Like, love doesn't necessarily make your relationship happy. It amplifies whatever emotion is already there. So if it's an unhealthy relationship, that's full of jealousy, envy, disrespect. The love will actually amplify that. It'll make the jealousy even worse. It'll make the disrespect more painful. If there's happiness, respect, trust, joy, the love will amplify that. So it's, love by itself doesn't fix a relationship. It doesn't necessarily make the relationship good. It takes what's already there and multiplies it by 10.

• 4:39Lewis Howes?

  Wow. I've actually heard that about money, but I haven't heard that with love. Where you hear if someone gets more money, it amplifies who they are.

• 4:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 4:48Lewis Howes?

  But I've never heard that about love.

• 4:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I mean, people, I think a lot of it is just the romantic movies and stories and, you know, we tend to glorify romance, right? We tend to glorify love. But think about it, like, what are the most, who are the people who hurt you the most in your life?

• 5:06Lewis Howes?

  People you love.

• 5:07Mark Manson?

  It's the people you love the most, right? Like, it's, and it's not just romantic partners. It's parents, siblings, kids, like it's.

• 5:14Lewis Howes?

  Friends, yeah, yeah.

• 5:15Mark Manson?

  The more you love somebody, the more vulnerable you are. Because the more any sort of pain or disrespect or antagonism, it just gets amplified.

• 5:26Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Have you ever felt in a lot of pain in, in your current relationship with your wife? Have you felt like?

• 5:34Mark Manson?

  Of course.

• 5:35Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 5:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah, of course.

• 5:39Mark Manson?

  I mean, it, it's, here's the thing, like.

• 5:42Lewis Howes?

  But you guys are happy.

• 5:43Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 5:43Lewis Howes?

  It's healthy, right?

• 5:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah, so it's, pain and conflict is normal across all relationships. I mean, humans are just, we're human, right? So we're gonna, we're gonna pick fights and one day she's gonna be cranky or one day I'm gonna be stressed out and turn around and take it out on her. Like, it's, it's, there's no such thing as a relationship that, that you don't have.

• 6:07Mark Manson?

  Bumps in the road or some sort of conflict. What determines whether a relationship is healthy or not is how quickly you recover from those bumps or those conflicts and move on from it.

• 6:18Lewis Howes?

  You repair, how quickly you repair the

• 6:20Mark Manson?

  Exactly.

• 6:21Lewis Howes?

  The pain. Now, this is something I think is fascinating because I don't think there's a lot of relationships where

• 6:30Lewis Howes?

  someone in the relationship, you're kind of at equal levels financially, maybe notoriety or success. But then all of a sudden, one person in a relationship gets this overwhelmingly amount of success and awareness the way you did. You know, not many people in the world experience that.

• 6:46Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 6:47Lewis Howes?

  How did you navigate staying in a healthy, happy relationship?

• 6:54Lewis Howes?

  Or maybe you weren't able to for a period of time. As you started to sell millions of copies of your book, you're on all the press and everyone wants to talk about you. And you're making more money than you ever had before.

• 7:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:05Lewis Howes?

  Where it wasn't as equal financially or success wise, how did you guys navigate love with you accelerating that?

• 7:14Mark Manson?

  It's funny, that really didn't put a whole lot of stress on the relationship.

• 7:20Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 7:20Mark Manson?

  And I think, I think a lot of it, so what I've noticed, and this isn't limited to romantic partnerships. This is every relationship in life. And I don't know, maybe you've experienced some of this, but like, when you experience a lot of success professionally, reputation, financially, whatever.

• 7:39Mark Manson?

  The way the people around you react is very reflective of their relationship to their own wealth, financial success, fame, whatever, right? So what I noticed is that

• 7:55Mark Manson?

  people in my life who judged themselves by how much money they made, suddenly got weird around me.

• 8:02Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 8:03Mark Manson?

  Whereas people who didn't judge themselves by how much money they made, were totally, they were happy for me. They're totally cool with it, not a big deal. People who very much judged themselves by how famous they were, how much attention they got, got weird, a little bit of jealousy, a little bit of envy. People who didn't give a about that, you know, they're like, cool, happy for you, man.

• 8:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:27Mark Manson?

  So with my wife, we're very fortunate in that that was never.

• 8:33Mark Manson?

  Honestly, like she's an immigrant. I think moving to the United States and dealing with the culture shock and the cultural differences and language barriers, I think that's been a bigger challenge than simply, you know, my success. She's just been incredibly supportive, very happy for me.

• 8:53Mark Manson?

  You know, no, no sort of like. Now, I think give myself a little bit of credit here because it's, it's not just, she hasn't just been amazing about it, but also I didn't let it go to my head, right? Like it's, I think the other side of it is if I came home from a book tour or something and she's like, hey, can you take out the trash? And I'm like, do you know who I am?

• 9:16Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 9:16Mark Manson?

  This is beneath me. Like, how dare you ask me to take out the garbage?

• 9:21Lewis Howes?

  You know, I hurt the relationship. Yeah.

• 9:23Mark Manson?

  That, that also causes problems. So I think it, it requires both people to keep perspective about what it actually means.

• 9:34Lewis Howes?

  Knowing, I mean, experiencing what you've experienced now with the success and the money that it's come.

• 9:43Lewis Howes?

  You didn't have that before you got married, right?

• 9:45Mark Manson?

  No.

• 9:46Lewis Howes?

  Would you have any different conversations or would you have, I don't know, set more ground rules or anything like that, knowing what you know now? Or would you give anyone else advice or an opinion about, hey, if one of you is really driven in a relationship to go earn or create or be a famous artist or whatever, and that might happen in the future, here are some things you should talk about to be aware of those changes. What would you share?

• 10:18Mark Manson?

  I think it would just, I think it's very important to.

• 10:24Mark Manson?

  Have deep discussions about, and this is probably good for any marriage, like whether somebody's driven or not, this is probably healthy for every marriage. It's like, have some very deep and serious discussions of what money means to each person. Some people put a lot of their self-esteem into money. Some people don't. Some people are very conservative with money. Some people are not. Some people have a lot of moral beliefs around money, right? Like, if you make too much money, you should give it all away. Or you're, that means you're selfish, or, you know, whatever. Some people don't have those sorts of moral beliefs tied with money.

• 11:02Mark Manson?

  So I think it's, it's probably the most important thing is just get very, very clear with your partner. What are each other's beliefs around finances and wealth? Especially because, you know, the number one cause of divorce is financial differences.

• 11:19Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 11:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 11:21Lewis Howes?

  So it doesn't matter how much you love someone, but people get hurt or break up because of money.

• 11:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I guess.

• 11:28Lewis Howes?

  So love isn't enough?

• 11:30Mark Manson?

  It's not enough.

• 11:31Lewis Howes?

  I mean, I think in your video, which I want to link up, where you talk about love and relationships with your wife, which I think is powerful. You mentioned how love is, I think, I think your wife said love is 50% of the equation to making a happy relationship, a healthy relationship. And I think for you it was like 35 or 40% or something. And then I think you mentioned values as being a big part and a few other things. Do you remember what those were for you besides values and other things that make a healthy relationship?

• 12:01Mark Manson?

  My hierarchy for relationships, and this is, I mean, people can find this in my books, my courses. Like, it's, trust and respect are tied for number one.

• 12:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Mark Manson?

  You can love somebody, I think, and I think most people have had an experience in their life where they've loved somebody very deeply, but they didn't trust them. And it doesn't work. It doesn't matter how much you try, how much effort you put in, how much you cry and argue and fight. It's like, if the trust isn't there, it doesn't work.

• 12:34Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 12:34Mark Manson?

  And if the respect isn't there, it's not healthy.

• 12:40Mark Manson?

  Two people can love each other, but if they don't respect each other, they're gonna treat each other like.

• 12:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 12:44Mark Manson?

  And they're gonna justify treating each other like, or they're gonna justify tolerating being treated like by saying, well, I love them so much.

• 12:52Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 12:53Mark Manson?

  And maybe it's my fault. Maybe I deserve this, right? And so and all, I think most of us have been in that relationship before too, and it doesn't.

• 13:00Lewis Howes?

  A few times.

• 13:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't end well.

• 13:04Lewis Howes?

  Payful.

• 13:05Mark Manson?

  It's, it's rough and it's, you know, to me, that's

• 13:10Mark Manson?

  generally that is the definition of a toxic relationship.

• 13:13Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:13Mark Manson?

  Is where a relationship where love is present, but respect and or trust is not. And but the love kind of

• 13:23Mark Manson?

  it's almost like a drug and like it's in a lot of ways, we psychologically behave with love the way addicts behave with their substance.

• 13:31Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:32Mark Manson?

  Which is we justify it, we delude ourselves, we lie to ourselves. We rationalize decisions that we make that are completely irrational.

• 13:43Mark Manson?

  And so we have to be very careful, like it's, it's, love can be an absolutely incredible thing. It's one of life's greatest experiences. I think everybody should absolutely experience it. But

• 13:56Mark Manson?

  proceed with caution.

• 13:57Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right, right. Now, you're, I mean, I'm having you share from personal experience. Obviously, you're not like a love coach and this is not where you study full time, although you've done a lot of research around this. You've done a lot of studies and written about this a lot. But how much does your environment affect love?

• 14:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Lewis Howes?

  And how you feel and connect with your partner? I'm thinking about personally with you and maybe the research you've done. You were, you were in a busy chaotic environment in New York City and now you're in a different environment, you know, in California.

• 14:35Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Lewis Howes?

  How does that change or does it change the connection you have with your partner?

• 14:41Mark Manson?

  I think it can. Love isn't something you simply sit and feel. It's something you put into action, right? Like you go on date nights together, you go out with friends together, you visit each other's families, you.

• 14:58Mark Manson?

  Go on a vacation together, right? Like it's, it's something you do sit and feel it, but you also have to go live it. You have to like, kind of keep, it's something you have to keep in motion by doing things together. And so I think when the environment changes, the nature of those activities you do together can also change. And it's been interesting actually moving to LA from New York. New York, there, there's so much to do all the time. So there's always, in a lot of ways, it, it, it's conducive to generating romance because there's always an adventure to go.

• 15:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, stimulus when you walk out the door.

• 15:35Mark Manson?

  There's always a concert or a show or some great restaurant that's just opening. And, and so it's, there's always this feeling of novelty and excitement, but there's also a lot of distraction, right? So if, if, if something, if something's like brewing under the surface and people, you know, people don't want to address it, you can find a lot of ways to keep, keep your hands up looking the other way, right?

• 16:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:03Mark Manson?

  So it's, it's been interesting coming here to California and having a way more sedentary, well, I shouldn't say sedentary, but like calm.

• 16:13Lewis Howes?

  Routine.

• 16:13Mark Manson?

  Calm lifestyle, domestic, I think is the right word.

• 16:18Mark Manson?

  There's, so there's less novelty and stimulation and there's also less distraction. Like there's, there's things I've noticed that since we've been here, things that come up, we tend to talk about it pretty much immediately, just because we're like sitting in our backyard and have nothing else to talk about. So, so it's in, in some ways, that's fantastic because we're very aligned and on the same page, but, uh, but at the same time, you're kind of giving, you're giving up some of that excitement and novelty and stimulation.

• 16:51Lewis Howes?

  The serendipity of the adventure that's happening right now. You're planning and you have to drive somewhere as opposed to walk outside.

• 16:57Mark Manson?

  Exactly.

• 16:58Lewis Howes?

  Subway or whatever.

• 16:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:59Lewis Howes?

  Trust and respect, it sounds like are big for you. Uh, I know you talked about values also.

• 17:05Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 17:05Lewis Howes?

  If you have, I mean, we're just speaking hypothetically here, but if you have trust and respect that is there, you got a lot of love.

• 17:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:17Lewis Howes?

  Values aren't really aligned.

• 17:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Lewis Howes?

  Maybe thirty to fifty percent, but you're not over fifty percent.

• 17:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:22Lewis Howes?

  On values. Is love, trust and respect enough to sustain a long-term, healthy relationship in your mind?

• 17:31Mark Manson?

  I think it's a really good question and I think it depends. So I don't think you'll ever find two people that are hundred percent aligned on values. Everybody is a little bit different, right? So, and you, I think you also want a little bit of diversity of values within the relationship. You want to have different standards for, for different things and different opinions about different issues. It just makes life way more interesting. There's probably a threshold or a breaking point somewhere, right? And it's, you know, one of the examples I've used in a book before is like, if,

• 18:10Mark Manson?

  if somebody is a, a priest and the other person's a stripper, like it doesn't matter how in love they are with each other, it's never gonna work, right?

• 18:23Mark Manson?

  If, if people have very, very fundamental belief differences, and this kind of comes back to the money thing. I think that the handful of things that seem to come up all the time are differences of beliefs around money, differences of beliefs around religion and differences of beliefs.

• 18:44Lewis Howes?

  Kids or?

• 18:45Mark Manson?

  Around kids and family.

• 18:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:46Mark Manson?

  And I think if you can probably survive not being aligned on one of those, but if you're not aligned on two or all of them, you're probably in trouble. Like you're probably just gonna butt heads over and over again.

• 19:05Lewis Howes?

  Now, what if someone evolves their values over time? You know, in five, 10, 15 years into the relationship, you know what? I actually don't have those beliefs and that lifestyle choice anymore. I'm gonna try something different.

• 19:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:19Lewis Howes?

  Do you think the love of the past, the history of the relationship can sustain? If it's too much of a conflict around those lifestyle choices or beliefs?

• 19:28Mark Manson?

  I think to a certain extent, first of all, everybody does evolve. Their values do evolve and change. Like, I think that's just natural to, to, to people.

• 19:40Mark Manson?

  I think the challenge within relationships is, you know, generally when relationships start, when you commit to somebody, it's because there is some amount of alignment and it's working. But as the years go on, if you start to evolve in two different directions, that can cause a lot of strain. You know, you often hear married couples that are getting divorced, or people who've been together for a long time and are deciding to get divorced. They say like, you know, we've become two different people, or we don't, I don't recognize him or her anymore, right? And I think that that's a case of like, we were, 10 years ago, we were completely aligned. And we've both changed and evolved over the years. And

• 20:23Mark Manson?

  my partner's gone this way and I've gone this way. And so now there's just this massive gap and we don't feel like we can bridge it anymore. We don't relate to each other. We don't understand each other. We don't agree on anything anymore. We don't do the same things for fun anymore. And that's, that's tough. And so I think part of the trick is to kind of intentionally evolve together is to be very conscious. And this is something that my wife and I try to pay attention to is that if I feel myself changing my mind about something very significant in my life, about my career, my beliefs around family, relationships with friends,

• 21:06Mark Manson?

  I communicate that with her. I'm like, hey, I'm starting to move in this direction. Really? Right? So that, just so she can be aware and adapt, you know, and just understand like, okay, that's kind of where he's at. Huh. Is there an example you can share on this in the last few years, maybe? So the two most significant ones that have happened have been around, first one was my career. When we moved to LA, I took six months off. I was completely burnt out. Yeah. And it's, I really had this period of just...

• 21:41Mark Manson?

  I'm not having fun anymore. I need to take some time off, figure myself out and really decide like, okay, what's this next phase of my career going to look like? What's the next decade of Mark Manson's career look like? And so I communicated that to her. I'm like, hey, not going to be speaking, not going to be traveling. I'm going to be at home a lot. You're probably going to see me on the couch playing video games. You know, this is kind of what I'm going through right now. Right? And, and I'm probably going to come out of that different with different priorities, different metrics of how I'm going to make decisions.

• 22:19Mark Manson?

  Money might be different, right? Like suddenly that huge speaking gig in Dubai that I would have taken a year ago to cash that fat check. Now I'm not going to take it. And we're not going to get that fat check. Right? So it's, it's you.

• 22:36Mark Manson?

  It's important to communicate those things that she understands like, hey, I'm at this pivot point in my career and I'm probably going to start going in a different direction. So just so that she knows and like, isn't shocked, right? When I don't take the speaking gig in Dubai. On the other front, this ties into the health thing. She was actually really good. She was a good influence on me. She, so my wife has a couple autoimmune conditions and they really started. She's been aware of them for a long time, but you know, as things happen, as you get older, things you could get away with.

• 23:11Lewis Howes?

  He can't anymore.

• 23:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah. In your twenties, it's like, you know, it hit me.

• 23:15Lewis Howes?

  You gotta pay attention and focus on them. Yeah.

• 23:16Mark Manson?

  You start coming up on 40 and it's just like, they level you. And she was starting to get leveled by them. And so starting right around the, the time of the pandemic, she, she got very, very serious about health. And I, at that time, I had been overweight for a while. My lifestyle was very unhealthy. I was traveling five, six months a year. I was drinking. Three, four nights a week, um, eating like crap, eating junk food, desserts all the time. And, and I was aware of that, but it just, you know, on that totem pole of priorities, it was pretty low on the priority list. Uh, but she got super serious about it and, and she really did because she, she didn't have a choice. Like it was.

• 24:01Lewis Howes?

  Was affecting her health. Yeah.

• 24:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Like, I mean, she, it was to the point where she could barely function throughout the day.

• 24:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:06Mark Manson?

  If she wasn't being very, very intentional about what she was eating.

• 24:10Lewis Howes?

  She was feeling sick. Yeah.

• 24:11Mark Manson?

  Yeah. And so she started kind of going on this journey and really cleaning up her diet and getting her health in order. And I started kind of becoming the beneficiary of that because she does most of the cooking. So I'm starting to eat healthy a lot more often. We're not going out as much, not drinking as much. And I'm starting to feel better. And I'm like, man, I'm like, I'm waking up bright eyed, bushy tailed, like feeling pretty good. Right? Uh, and it, it's, you know, and she and I were in communication about that. And she was very clear. Like this is, I need to make this a top priority in my life. And I'm going to become that person who like, doesn't eat dairy, doesn't eat gluten, like doesn't eat sugar. And I was like, oh, this is, oh God, this is going

• 24:56Mark Manson?

  to suck. Like, this is, my life's going to get so boring. And actually the opposite happened is that it's, I've kind of followed her on that. Um, she's been a very positive influence in that way. And that I started to notice benefits. And I said, you know, my health has been pretty terrible the last five years. I'm getting up in my thirties. Like I'm not bouncing back the way I used to 10 years ago. Maybe I just hop on, on this train with her, right? And see where it goes. And, and that's, that's a big part of what happened. And, um, and so now health has kind of become a big priority in my life.

• 25:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, man.

• 25:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:38Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting because when I, when I saw you, like it was a month ago or something or at VidCon.

• 25:45Lewis Howes?

  I recognized you, but I didn't recognize you.

• 25:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:48Lewis Howes?

  It was like, oh, there's Mark, but you don't look like Mark. You know what I mean? It was like, I was like, who are you? You know what I mean? Uh, maybe I haven't seen you in years, but, but I'd seen your content online. You know, I'd seen your YouTube videos, but I mean, you just look like a new human being.

• 26:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:05Lewis Howes?

  And your aura, your energy is vibrant and healthy.

• 26:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Lewis Howes?

  And, um, and even just looking back at some of your old videos before getting on this interview. I was like, man, you, you look a little rough around the edges. I'm not, I mean, I've been there too at different times in my life. You know what I mean? I've been there as well. It's not like I've always the, you know, perfect health, but it's amazing when we make health a value. And you have a partner who's all on board with you. My girlfriend is the same way. We're like all on board on it. And it's amazing how the relationship I feel like is also healthier. Doesn't mean it's perfect and there's not disagreements or challenges, but when you both have health as a priority, it's incredible feeling.

• 26:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Lewis Howes?

  Would have been the benefits you've seen of her starting this health journey and you aligning to it.

• 26:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:57Lewis Howes?

  Like with the relationship, not just your body and your health.

• 27:00Mark Manson?

  It's, I mean, it's been so important. First of all, it just makes it so much easier for both of us.

• 27:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 27:06Mark Manson?

  Right? Like I'm, if she's not ordering desserts, then that's one, that's one more temptation. I don't have to fight off, right? You know, and, and it's the same for her as well. It's like, if I'm not like buying, ordering bottles of wine, you know, every weekend, like she doesn't have to sit there and ask herself, oh, do I want one too? Right? So it, it, you really do kind of compound each other's success in that regard. Uh, and I think that's probably true with a lot of lifestyle habits, but it's, it's also just.

• 27:40Mark Manson?

  I don't know, we just so much more energy.

• 27:43Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 27:43Mark Manson?

  Like just more vitality. It's funny because our idea in, you know, when we lived in New York, our idea of quality time together was going to a happy hour, having a bunch of drinks, maybe going to a show or something, staying out till like 12 or 1. Now our idea of quality times, like going on a hike at like eight in the morning.

• 28:05Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, man. It's a great, great feeling.

• 28:08Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and it's, um, it's different, but it's like, it's not, it's not any less significant. It's, it's less exciting, but it's, it's long-term, it's more meaningful.

• 28:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, more fulfilling.

• 28:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, more sustainable.

• 28:24Mark Manson?

  Absolutely more sustainable.

• 28:25Lewis Howes?

  Way more sustainable.

• 28:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:27Lewis Howes?

  Um, I guess it would be challenging if someone was like, you know, I'm gonna start being vegan and now the person's me and then it's like, okay, that's a different type of lifestyle, but it's just hard. You gotta learn how to evolve with the person, it sounds like.

• 28:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Or at least accommodate each other.

• 28:44Lewis Howes?

  Accommodate, yeah, accept.

• 28:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:46Lewis Howes?

  Not make wrong, not judge.

• 28:47Mark Manson?

  It's like, all right, you're vegan now, like I'll I'll figure it out, right?

• 28:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly. Who knows, in the next year, she may become vegan. Yeah, we know, being out in LA. What is the thing that you've learned the most since the rise of your success through books and everything you've done? What is the, the thing you used to believe was true before or at the height of those things rising?

• 29:15Lewis Howes?

  That you don't necessarily agree with now? Was there a value or belief or a thought that maybe you even taught? In a book or in a blog or something where you're like, this is the way where you're like, you know what? Maybe it's not the way.

• 29:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah. You know what's funny? It's, it's actually kind of the reverse of that, which is. So first of all, the answer to your question is, I think early in my career, I was so driven and just set on, like, I had some really moonshot goals in my head, and I was just so set on them and so driven to achieve them, that I never really stopped and asked myself, like, what after that? Like, you know, let's say you get there, now what? Then what? Thought never even crossed my mind. I think there was just kind of this implicit assumption that, like, once I get there, everything's gonna be gravy, so why worry about it? And the irony is that a huge

• 30:11Mark Manson?

  part of that book is saying exactly the opposite of that, which is, you never get away from problems in life, you just upgrade your problems, right? It's like, success isn't the elimination of problems, success is just getting better problems. And so, once my career really took off, and I hit a bunch of those moonshot goals that I had dreamed about, I looked around, and I still had problems. In fact, I had like, bigger problems, in a lot of ways, bigger problems. And, and that just messed with me. Yeah, it just, it really, it really messed with me.

• 30:49Lewis Howes?

  How did they make you feel, or what did it tell you about life? What did it teach you?

• 30:53Mark Manson?

  I think, again, it's, it's, it's not so, it's not so much that I, like, believe things beforehand that weren't true, it's just there were, there were things that I didn't account for or think about. And one of those too was that the, the higher on the mountain you get, the, the larger the stakes are, right? So it's like, if nobody knows who your name is, and you post an article online, and people hate it, nobody cares.

• 31:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, three peoples, yeah.

• 31:24Mark Manson?

  You just delete the account, open a new one, start over. Like, and nobody will ever know. You know, it's, if you've, you've sold 10 million books, and you post an article online, and people don't like it, like, suddenly, there's repercussions to that.

• 31:40Lewis Howes?

  Did you ever experience that?

• 31:43Mark Manson?

  I definitely had, like, some controver, I've never been, like, canceled, right? But...

• 31:48Lewis Howes?

  You had some criticism or negative feedback?

• 31:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I definitely had some pieces that, oh yeah, that got a lot of blowback, especially back in 2020.

• 31:56Lewis Howes?

  Really? Like, what was the topic, or?

• 31:58Mark Manson?

  People...

• 32:00Mark Manson?

  It's funny because now in hindsight, I can recognize that like everybody was just so.

• 32:05Lewis Howes?

  Hypersensitive.

• 32:06Mark Manson?

  Oh, my God, everything. People off like you could say anything and it would it wouldn't have anything to.

• 32:13Lewis Howes?

  They were wrong.

• 32:14Mark Manson?

  Wouldn't have anything to do with politics or vaccines or COVID and nothing like him, nothing to do with it. And people find a way to construe it and be like, oh, you're one of those and like blah, blah, blah. Um, yeah, so there were, there were a few moments like in that period that I just got ravaged by a percentage of my audience.

• 32:36Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:37Mark Manson?

  Mainly just because I got lumped in with some sort of cause or political group or ideology or whatever. And they assumed that I was part of that and they just went to town on me.

• 32:48Lewis Howes?

  How does that make you feel though, once you're at that level of stuff?

• 32:51Mark Manson?

  Oh, it sucks. It sucks, man. I mean, it just, it is, I can honestly say writing newsletters in 2020 is the least fun my job has ever been.

• 33:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 33:03Mark Manson?

  Cause it was in it. I remember talking to my team and it was like, man, I writing, writing a newsletter every week in 2020 was like, it's like being in a boxing ring and getting knocked down and like getting up and knowing you're about to get knocked out again.

• 33:18Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 33:19Mark Manson?

  Cause it's just, it felt like you couldn't say anything that you, you just wouldn't get ripped apart for.

• 33:28Lewis Howes?

  I think this is one of the things that most people don't understand about having, you know, a goal be achieved of some level greater than where you're at. Let's say you don't really have that much or no one follows you, not that many people know about you, say, except for your inner circle of friends and family. And then all of a sudden a thousand times more people are aware of you.

• 33:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Lewis Howes?

  A million times more people are aware of you within a period of a year, a couple of years and it grows.

• 33:54Lewis Howes?

  I don't think people understand that there's a whole different level of pressure that can come with that. There's a lot of privilege and opportunities and amazing things, but it's like, people don't know that you have to deal with a different type of pressure.

• 34:06Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 34:07Lewis Howes?

  And can anyone get away from that pressure with having some type of success?

• 34:14Mark Manson?

  I don't think so, because I mean, it's, by definition, success is doing something extraordinarily rare. Something that 99.99% of other people either haven't done or can't do, right? And once you've kind of reached that level of uniqueness,

• 34:38Mark Manson?

  it's, there's a lot of expectation that's put on you.

• 34:44Mark Manson?

  Like, it's, you have an audience of millions now, so you're supposed to say something

• 34:50Mark Manson?

  more empathetic or interesting or intelligent or whatever. The other thing that happens too, and I think this is particularly inherent with our line of work, which is having audiences, is that when you have a, when your audience is relatively small, like, let's say 1,000 people or even 10,000 people, that's usually, it's going to be a pretty homogenous group, right? Like, when I started my career, I specifically wrote dating advice for young men. And so my first 10,000 people in my audience, it was all

• 35:21Lewis Howes?

  24-year-old guys.

• 35:22Mark Manson?

  Dudes in their twenties. Like, so it's, you know what's gonna piss them off and you know what's not. And once you reach kind of the level where we're at, where it's, your audience is measured in millions, there's such a massive amount of diversity that it's, it kind of feels like there's landmines everywhere, right? Like, it's like, like,

• 35:45Lewis Howes?

  Oh man, that's a good analogy. Yeah, that's good.

• 35:49Mark Manson?

  I can see by the look on your face, you relate to what I'm saying.

• 35:53Lewis Howes?

  Like, You have to be cautious about what you're putting out there.

• 35:56Mark Manson?

  Totally. Jokes that in your head are completely innocuous.

• 35:59Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 35:59Mark Manson?

  Like, didn't even thought for two seconds about it. You know, there's somebody somewhere in some country that you've never even been to or thought of that is like extremely offended and you get that email and you're like, oh. All right, so we won't make that joke again, you know, and it's um, so I, this isn't, I always feel a little awkward, like getting into this subject because it's, I never want to look like, uh, you know, the whining.

• 36:27Lewis Howes?

  Right, oh, woe is me.

• 36:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah, the whining millionaire.

• 36:29Lewis Howes?

  The number one your time bestseller, like.

• 36:31Mark Manson?

  Like it's, I wouldn't trade anything, like I wouldn't go back, but it's, it's, um, again, if I could go back to myself, say, six months before everything blew up or took off.

• 36:45Lewis Howes?

  What would you have said or what do you wish you would have known to prepare yourself?

• 36:48Mark Manson?

  I would, I wish I would have known, or what I would say to myself is like, you need to start thinking about contingency plan, you know, it's like, what, what if this thing does 10x your expectations? What if you do hit that moonshot? And you're 32? Like, then what? What are you gonna do? Right? And what? Think about the expectations that are gonna be put on you. Think about the pressures that are gonna be put on you. Um, again, like,

• 37:19Mark Manson?

  didn't think about it until it happened, but a book publisher treats you very, very differently, uh, when you've sold millions of books than when you haven't sold a thing, right? Like when you haven't sold a thing, it's funny because when you talk to authors, authors kind of universally complain like, my publisher doesn't do anything. They barely respond to my emails and it's like, yeah, because you haven't done anything for them. Well, once you've done something for them and they care a lot, well, that introduces its own series of problems, which is like every word you write, every chapter you send to them is like scrutinized and nitpicked and like, well, we actually don't like this chapter. Why don't you go rewrite it? And it's, it's, um, so it, it is the stakes

• 38:01Mark Manson?

  rise proportional to the success. And I think there's this assumption that when you are, um, at the bottom of the mountain and there are very low stakes and failure doesn't cost you very much. There's this assumption, it's like, well, if I get to the top, everything's gonna be great. I can do whatever I want. I don't have to worry about any repercussions because I'll be rich and famous, whatever. And it's like, actually, it's a lot of ways it's reverse. It's like you, what you, once you have tons of stuff to lose, you start questioning everything you do. And you start wondering if every decision is gonna like, you know, be the wrong decision.

• 38:36Lewis Howes?

  You think that being more successful would give you more self-confidence.

• 38:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Lewis Howes?

  But for a lot of people, it actually diminishes their self-confidence. After a period of time, they start to second guess the next moves, right? Can I be as successful? What if I lose it? What, you know, I need to be careful about what I say now. Whereas before, people were willing to take more risks when they didn't have anything to lose, right? They were like, let me try this thing and this thing. And I would hit. Okay, let's try another thing.

• 39:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 39:04Lewis Howes?

  How does someone prepare themselves for success to keep their self-confidence and expand it, not dim their light?

• 39:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I mean, honestly, the thing that ultimately worked for me is to just kind of maintain that bottom of the mountain mindset. In a lot of ways, you know, there's like a famous cliche about, you know, there's, you get to the top of the mountain, you realize there's a taller mountain behind it, you know? And so it's like figuring out what that taller mountain is, right? And like, and a lot of times you just invent it. Like you just pick something out of the air. You're like, you know what? Like, I'll make this my mountain, right? But it's, it's finding that so that you can, because there's a certain amount of uh, freedom and maneuverability that comes with seeing yourself as a beginner, seeing yourself as somebody who like, doesn't have anything to lose, or doesn't have all the

• 39:57Mark Manson?

  answers. And, and for me, it's been psychologically very, very beneficial to find a way to keep that. And, and not put all of my identity and self-worth into that. Because if I did that, then I

• 40:13Mark Manson?

  I'd be terrified to get out of bed in the morning.

• 40:16Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. So when you were saying that, for those just listening, you're pointing at the book.

• 40:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 40:21Lewis Howes?

  Putting your self-worth and identity into the success of the book.

• 40:24Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 40:25Lewis Howes?

  Right? What should we put our, our identity and self-worth into if it's not into our accomplishments?

• 40:32Mark Manson?

  Hmm.

• 40:32Lewis Howes?

  Our career or our wealth?

• 40:35Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Uh, it's a great question. I personally believe that the, you should treat your identity or your self-worth, uh, the same way you treat a good investment portfolio, which is you diversify it across a lot of things that are not correlated to one another. Uh, so the same way, you know, you want to split up your money between stocks and bonds and cash and real estate, because those things don't always move in the same direction at the same time. You want to put your self-esteem in, in things that, that aren't going to go north or south at the same time.

• 41:09Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting. Yeah.

• 41:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 41:11Lewis Howes?

  Like, like for someone listening or watching, what does that look like in a day-to-day life?

• 41:15Mark Manson?

  So for me, those categories, you know, I do think it's very important. Like you should have a lot of your self-esteem tied up in your career and accomplishments. I think that's healthy. That's good.

• 41:25Lewis Howes?

  Like your skill sets, the things you're learning and developing and the impact you're making.

• 41:29Mark Manson?

  You spend half your waking hours working on something. So you should care about that something and you should take some amount of pride in it. Like, I think that's healthy. But, you know, with that, I would put relationships.

• 41:43Mark Manson?

  Both family and friendships.

• 41:47Mark Manson?

  I would put knowledge, learning something, having some sort of hobby or interest that you do simply for the sake of doing it.

• 41:59Mark Manson?

  And I think I would throw in there as well, you know, I think for a lot of people, you, you might throw religion or spiritual practice in there. For me personally, I'm not, I'm not very spiritual or religious. I just kind of see it as like charity or generosity. You know, it's like, do good things for people.

• 42:19Lewis Howes?

  Being generous human being. And that doesn't mean you have to give all of your time, but just being kind to people.

• 42:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Lewis Howes?

  You know, opening the door, being courteous, being.

• 42:27Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 42:28Lewis Howes?

  Appreciative.

• 42:29Mark Manson?

  Or, you know, volunteering, helping somebody out, you know, whatever.

• 42:33Lewis Howes?

  How, I mean, I'll speak from his, uh, personal experience here. Whenever I was in challenging intimate relationships.

• 42:41Mark Manson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:43Lewis Howes?

  It didn't matter how successful my business or how talented I was as an athlete. I always felt like my self-worth was a lot lower if my intimate relationship wasn't successful. Or if it was up and down and emotionally challenging too much.

• 42:59Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 43:01Lewis Howes?

  How much do you think our intimate relationship, and I don't know if that's just me, that I was just really bad at them. But how much do you think our intimate relationship is tied to our self-worth? Like if we are struggling in intimacy, do you think we could still have confidence and full richness of life in other areas? Or does that hold us back a little bit?

• 43:22Mark Manson?

  It's funny because I think it's a little bit of a chicken in the egg thing. Where

• 43:28Mark Manson?

  people tend to struggle in their intimate relationships because they don't have a lot of self-worth outside of their intimate relationships, right? And so it's one way you solve that is finding self-worth outside of it and like building that identity for yourself. And that tends to help you generate better relationships, which then also give you a lot of self-worth. So it's like, it's interesting. And I feel like intimate relationships are

• 43:56Mark Manson?

  they drive happiness more than any other thing. Any, you know, more so than career success, more so than money, more so than hobbies or friendships, whatever. It's, it's generally like, when you look at all the data on happiness, it's how good are your relationships? If they're good, you're probably a happy person. And if they're not good, you're probably not happy. And those two things are gonna, those two statements are gonna tend to be true regardless of what else, whatever else is going on in your life.

• 44:27Mark Manson?

  But I think when it comes to self-esteem, self-worth, I do think there's a, a large component of it does seem to be driven by feeling useful in some way, feeling competent, feeling that you're, you're able to do something in the world.

• 44:46Lewis Howes?

  Yes. Speaking of success, I always forget the exact quote, but I love the, the message that Jim Carrey shared in one of his commencement speeches where he says, "I wish everyone could become rich and famous and realize it's not the key to happiness," or something like that.

• 45:05Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like success adds to happiness? Or adds to feeling not enough still? Do you feel like it it it supports you more in being happier? Or makes you realize, oh, I'm actually deficient in other areas?

• 45:22Mark Manson?

  I don't think success and money buys happiness. I think it, but it can buy away unhappiness. So it can buy away problems that would normally derail other people.

• 45:36Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 45:37Mark Manson?

  So the stress of not knowing if you're going to be able to buy books for your kid.

• 45:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 45:43Mark Manson?

  Or if you're going to be able to meet red next month.

• 45:48Mark Manson?

  It buys away those things. It buys away a lot of, a lot of stress and angst. But I think if you are psychologically wounded and fundamentally have a low self-esteem or or struggle with with self-worth issues. It's not going to solve those for you on its own. And in fact, and there's plenty of examples of people who, you know, get super famous and rich and it's not enough.

• 46:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, they get into addiction or drugs or whatever. Yeah.

• 46:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:20Lewis Howes?

  In the last three years, the last 10 years, I've been on a healing journey for a lot of different things in my life. But I was saying the last three years, I've had some of the biggest breakthroughs in terms of healing psychological wounds that were holding me back in certain areas of life. Where do you feel like was the biggest place for you to that you healed in the last five years in your life internally? Was there any wounds or challenges or things that you were like, they're just kind of holding on to that you were able to start releasing and letting go of?

• 46:58Mark Manson?

  It's funny because the biggest thing is very related to the physical health. So I, I came from, I love my parents very much, love my family. Very emotionally dysfunctional and I grew up emotionally dysfunctional. And so one of the reasons I came to this career is probably, it sounds like the same reason you came. It was just like, I'm just trying to figure my own out, right? And so I might as well do it in a very public manner. So I can get feedback and hear from other people. Yeah. Hear from other people. So it's so much of my early adulthood was very, very honed in on

• 47:41Mark Manson?

  healing my own issues with relationships and intimacy. Wow. And, and kind of getting the, you know, I struggled a lot with depression throughout my life and so getting like, kind of philosophically getting myself straight with the world and, you know, what is happiness and what is a good life and what's worth living? And, you know, all those questions, they, they really, they ate at me for a number of years. So when I look at teens, twenties, and even through early thirties, like that was very much the project.

• 48:13Mark Manson?

  Meanwhile, what's going on externally is I'm at all the parties. I'm drinking all the booze. I'm eating all the food. I'm not, I'm saying, not saying no to any invitation that comes my way. And again, when you're 28 and you're indestructible, like you can get away with that, right? Like, that's not a problem. Yeah. And I got into my mid, mid thirties and it became a problem. Like I, I became very overweight. I, so last time I was here, uh, you know, you were talking about my energy, right? So last time I was here, I was, I was on, LA was like city number six on like a 12 city book tour.

• 48:54Mark Manson?

  I think I had done, you know, nine interviews in the past 48 hours. When I showed up to talk to you, I was probably completely underslept. I was touring for one book while simultaneously writing another. Wow. That's crazy. Just like unbelievable amount of stress and pressure and just exhaustion going on simultaneously and, and not taking care of myself at all. Right? It's like, I'm eating Chipotle in the airport or whatever. Right. Not even thinking about it. And It was interesting. So during that, that book that I was promoting last time I saw you,

• 49:33Mark Manson?

  I was, it was like two weeks before the deadline. I was under so much stress. I actually started having chest pains. Really? I was thirty six, started having chest pains and I'm like, and I have a history of heart disease in my family. So I'm like in my head, I'm like, I'm having a heart attack. Wow. I'm just gonna like keel over in this coffee shop at any second, right? And then that, the chest pains kind of started to turn into a little bit of a panic attack. And I went home, talked to my wife. She's like, you gotta stop, like go to a doctor. Don't mess around with this. Don't like, you're not working and you're not writing another word till you go to a doctor. So I go to a doctor, get all the tests, check everything out. Everything comes back.

• 50:18Mark Manson?

  Blood work. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. Comes back and then, you know, he shows me all the tests. He's like, yeah, you're perfectly healthy. You're doing fine. Or by the way, you under any stress lately?

• 50:31Mark Manson?

  And I just, that was kind of, some of that blood work came back and he was like, you know, this isn't great, but you're still young, so it's not a problem yet. This isn't great, but you're still young. It's not a problem yet. You know, it was a lot of like, the path I was on was I was gonna be one of those guys. By the time I'm 50, I'm taking half a dozen medications and, you know, high blood pressure and all this stuff. So that was the trajectory I was on. So when my wife started her health journey and I kind of went along with it.

• 51:09Mark Manson?

  I was very shocked and surprised how transformative it was for me because I, my body was something that I just ignored for pretty much my entire life. I was always focused up here. For people listening, I'm pointing to my head. Very analytical in your head. Very analytical. Not in your body. Very like reading psychological research, studying, reading books, thinking about relationship. It was. You're an analyzer. Totally, totally. And it. When I started getting the physical stuff in shape, it first of all, it was surprising to me how how much I underestimated. I mean, I feel stupid in hindsight because I'm like, wow, I feel 20% better

• 51:53Mark Manson?

  24/7. Like, I've been like, I feel like I've been running uphill my entire life. Wow. And, you know, I'm like, God, why didn't I do this sooner? But it was interesting because there are a lot of emotional, like a lot, to fix a lot of my bad habits around food and alcohol. I did take a hard look at some of, there was like some emotional stuff tied up in it. Really? So I realized at a certain point that like my, my drinking, I never craved alcohol, but I found that I would, any social situation I was in, I would drink. And it was just very automatic. I didn't think about it. I didn't question it. It was just like, well, yeah,

• 52:37Mark Manson?

  of course I'm at a birthday party. Of course I'm going to drink. And it had never occurred to me like, you don't have to drink at a social gathering. Like, that's not a, that's not, that's not necessary. And I started like really asking myself a lot of questions around, you know, why, why do you feel like you should be drinking at social gatherings? What happens if you don't? Well, it turns out I don't enjoy half of them. Well, what does that mean? Means you're hanging out with a bunch of people that you actually don't enjoy hanging out with. Well, why are you doing that? Oh, now, now we're starting to get somewhere, right? Like now we're starting to get into The real questions. People pleasing tendencies, feelings of inadequacy, needing like, needing to be seen a certain way.

• 53:20Mark Manson?

  Like, one of the things that I realized is that in my, you know, in college and in my twenties, I developed a reputation as the party guy, right? Like,

• 53:32Mark Manson?

  I was always the first one to crack open a beer. I was always the last one to leave. I was the first one on the dance floor like it. I was that guy. And in my early life, that sustained me through a lot of social awkwardness and anxiety and things like that. And it, I didn't realize like that same thing that I guess I adopted to kind of protect me when I was younger. You run that ahead 20 years and it's killing me. And so to take that armor off, I had to go back and look at like, why do you feel like you need to be the party guy? Well, I like, cause you feel like if you're not the party guy, people aren't going to want to hang out with you. Well, like, why do you feel that way?

• 54:19Mark Manson?

  So.

• 54:20Lewis Howes?

  When, when was this realization happening? How long ago?

• 54:22Mark Manson?

  This was all, so the, all these questions that I'm kind of running through, I would say it was a gradual process over the last two years.

• 54:30Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 54:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 54:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow, man. And how old are you now?

• 54:33Mark Manson?

  I'm 39.

• 54:34Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. I just turned 40 in March and it's like the last three years for me too, man. It's just been like asking all these questions, unwinding certain, I wouldn't say relationships, but just focusing to spend my energy more with certain amount of people that, you know, I don't have to show up for in a certain way. That I can just be a hundred percent authentic, have the conversations I want. And I feel bad about something or feel pressured, similar in a, in a certain way, I guess.

• 55:00Mark Manson?

  Do you feel part of it is the age? Like it's, I, I definitely,

• 55:08Mark Manson?

  there's definitely a sense, my wife and I, we talk about this a lot, that there's definitely a sense, she just turned 40, I'm about to turn 40 next year. Like there's kind of this sense of like, there, we don't have time to fuck around in. It's like, when you're, when you're 30, it's like, okay, yeah, you could waste a year hanging out with people you don't actually like. But it's like, when you're 40, you're like, no, I don't have time for this.

• 55:28Lewis Howes?

  You don't, man.

• 55:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 55:29Lewis Howes?

  You don't. And I, 40 didn't hit me where I was like, oh, I need to like. I don't know, freak out or something.

• 55:36Mark Manson?

  Buy a Ferrari?

• 55:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I don't have that feeling. I did buy my first home, but I didn't feel like I need this because whatever to feel something.

• 55:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 55:45Lewis Howes?

  It more just felt right because my relationship felt peaceful. I was like, okay, I can take this step now.

• 55:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 55:51Lewis Howes?

  But I have a buddy of mine who's just turned forty over the weekend and he was, he wasn't in a crisis, but he was like,

• 55:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 55:57Lewis Howes?

  what am I doing in my life?

• 55:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 55:59Lewis Howes?

  With some, in some ways and kind of like reevaluating a lot, you know, not in a negative way, but I think it hits you.

• 56:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 56:07Lewis Howes?

  Where you're like, okay, there's a new decade that I just completed.

• 56:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 56:11Lewis Howes?

  What is important in my life? What I want my time and energy to be invested in? What I want to make sure that I create or generate or do before it's too late.

• 56:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 56:22Lewis Howes?

  And I think that's important things to ask ourselves at all, at all times. But so it sounds like in the last two or three years, you started asking these questions. What was the, what has been the big realization for you underneath it all?

• 56:35Mark Manson?

  I guess.

• 56:38Mark Manson?

  It's funny, I guess, once I've removed, you know, I've been completely sober for almost a year now.

• 56:47Lewis Howes?

  Congrats on that, man. That's big, powerful.

• 56:49Mark Manson?

  I'm, you know, once I've removed a lot of distractions and stopped doing the things that I don't enjoy doing, both professionally and personally. I, I think kind of the biggest realization is just that actually life is and can be incredibly simple. Like you really just, you find a few people that you really love and love spending time with. You find a few things that you enjoy doing and you're good doing them and you find a way to contribute, give back to the world. Like it's not, it's not rocket science.

• 57:21Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:22Mark Manson?

  You know, like it's, it's, I think, I think that's the other thing is, and this is something that I've, it's so funny being. Writing about these psychological concepts because it doesn't matter how much you understand them. They still sneak up and get you over and over again. But it's, you know, one thing I've written so many times is that it's when something is emotionally difficult, we tend to assume it must be complicated. Right? It's like, it's emotionally difficult to break up with somebody. So there's gotta be like a 17 step procedure that I can learn and rehearse. You know, it's like, no, you just break up.

• 57:57Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 57:58Mark Manson?

  It's just, it just really hurts. Like that's.

• 58:01Lewis Howes?

  It's painful. You gotta experience it, go through it.

• 58:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah. Very simple, extremely, extremely painful. And what, you know, what I've noticed, I think when I was younger and I had a lot more emotional turmoil and self-esteem issues and questions about my life and the world, like I assume that everything must be super complicated.

• 58:21Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 58:21Mark Manson?

  And that, you know, I've got to like, get out and go do these 12 things and read a hundred books and like take notes on everything and study everything. And it's like, you know, now I kind of look at, I'm like, actually, no, it's pretty straightforward. Like you, you, you need a handful of great relationships. You need one or two great pursuits in your life and then you need a way to give back or a positive way to spend your free time. And, and then you just keep doing that until you die.

• 58:52Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 58:53Mark Manson?

  And that's about it.

• 58:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, stay healthy.

• 58:55Mark Manson?

  Stay healthy and, and it's, it's, it's not, there's no like secret code or, or algorithm or anything like, it's just, you find the few things that work for you and you just rinse and repeat.

• 59:08Lewis Howes?

  Consistency with it, man.

• 59:09Mark Manson?

  Over and over.

• 59:10Lewis Howes?

  Did you ever have that feeling of like, okay, the subtle art, 300 something weeks on New York Times bestseller list, did you ever think like, okay, will I ever be able to do this type of results physically again in terms of numbers, success, metrics?

• 59:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 59:26Lewis Howes?

  That ever mess with you or?

• 59:28Mark Manson?

  Big time.

• 59:28Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 59:29Mark Manson?

  Big time. Yeah, it's, and I'm glad you used the word metrics because, and again, the irony, this is actually in the book, like I literally talk about this in the book about, there's a whole chapter about, be careful how you define success. Choose your metrics wisely because depending on the metrics you choose to measure success, you can get yourself into trouble. Right? So my. Metric for success. When I was an aspiring writer, when I was writing this book, when this book came out, like, you know, my metric for success was I want to get to the top of the New York Times, sell a million copies, do all this, right?

• 1:00:06Mark Manson?

  And what I never considered is that I would exceed those goals by so much that I would almost trap myself, right? Like, and so I quickly, when the book blew up, I quickly found myself in a position of like, oh, my God, nothing I ever do is going to be this successful.

• 1:00:21Lewis Howes?

  Really? That quick? Within like a couple of months or something?

• 1:00:23Mark Manson?

  Uh, I'd say a year or two.

• 1:00:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:00:25Mark Manson?

  Like, and that, there was an immense amount of psychological stress from that.

• 1:00:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:00:30Mark Manson?

  Of like, of like, I'm 32 and everything is downhill.

• 1:00:33Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:00:37Mark Manson?

  Right? And like, that's a terrible place to be, but that is genuinely what I felt for a number of years and...

• 1:00:43Lewis Howes?

  Even with all the checks coming in and all the success and all the opportunities, you felt that way.

• 1:00:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't, again, it comes back to what are the metric? Like, how are you measuring success, right? Like, to me, like, the checks, it's like, great, you know, cool, whatever.

• 1:01:00Lewis Howes?

  After you get it for a while, you're kind of like, okay.

• 1:01:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah. It's, money, money has never been a big driver of mine, um, ever. It's, it's more been, um, quality of the work, but also, you know, reach. Like, it's, it's always mattered to me a lot that I'm reaching a lot of people.

• 1:01:18Lewis Howes?

  Impact, yeah.

• 1:01:19Mark Manson?

  I'm impacting a lot of people and I tied a lot of, a lot of my definition of success was tied up in that. And this hit so hard and so wide that by that definition, it was all downhill, right? And so I had to change that definition. Like, I had to redefine what success is for myself. So I actually, there were probably a few years I felt...

• 1:01:44Mark Manson?

  Imprisoned is probably too strong of a word. You know, imprisoned by the success of subtle art, but like it. I'm maybe confined or.

• 1:01:54Lewis Howes?

  Trapped or confined.

• 1:01:55Mark Manson?

  A little bit. At some point. It was actually when I I took the time off last year that like that flipped where it was like. It stopped being. Instead of measuring myself against this book for the rest of my life, which makes no sense whatsoever. Uh, I started seeing it as as just like a blessing of like, look, like. This thing is basically bankrolling anything you want to do for the rest of your life. Any like crazy startup idea, any like stupid indie film like. And you know, if you want to go buy a cabin in the mountains, like this thing is going to bankroll. Whatever crazy idea you come up with for the rest of your life, this thing's bankrolling it. So like, why don't you just be grateful and.

• 1:02:41Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate this.

• 1:02:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah, right?

• 1:02:42Lewis Howes?

  Don't be stressed about trying to recreate it.

• 1:02:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah, exactly. And so, and to come back to the identity thing, because this was actually tied to this. It was an epiphany of like, I don't have to define myself as an author. Like I. It's funny because before I wrote the book, like being able to call myself an author was something I. I aspired to do. I took a lot of pride doing it, especially being defined myself as a bestselling author, right?

• 1:03:11Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:03:13Mark Manson?

  I hit a point where I realized I'm like, I don't have to. Identify as an author like I. I can do other things. I've done other things. I've been successful at other things. Like an author can just be one of many things I do. And and as soon as that simple little thing switched in my head. It became very liberating.

• 1:03:34Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man, that's beautiful. I've got a few final questions for you. This has been inspiring. Again, if. I don't know who in my audience hasn't read the book yet, but make sure you guys get the subtle art of not giving a. If you haven't got it, make sure to get a few copies. It's always a big hit. For every family, friend group, community, get a few copies, pass them out. Uh, you're also YouTube channel. I love, I love the content you're making on there now. It's interesting because you're talking about, you know, social anxiety of like needing to go out in the past to like drink and be liked or be seen in a certain way. I think you were talking about, you know, looking a certain way in front of people. And you've got this new series you're creating on YouTube, which is taking readers out.

• 1:04:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:17Lewis Howes?

  In your community and helping them overcome different challenges. And the first one is with a woman who's got social anxiety.

• 1:04:23Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 1:04:23Lewis Howes?

  And um, you're taking her through all these different challenges and adventures to overcome them.

• 1:04:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:29Lewis Howes?

  And there's a big kind of, you know, prize at the end, if you will, when it's not what people think it might be. So I want people to check out your YouTube channel, uh, which is really cool. And that's, is that I am Mark Manson? Is that on YouTube?

• 1:04:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Lewis Howes?

  What's it, Mark Manson?

• 1:04:43Mark Manson?

  If you just type Mark Manson in YouTube, you'll.

• 1:04:45Lewis Howes?

  But make sure you guys, make sure you guys check that out. Get on your newsletter, markmanson.net. Um, get the book. We'll have it all linked up as well, but your YouTube is a, is a lot of fun and you're putting a lot of energy, time, resources into making these really cool, almost like a little reality show.

• 1:05:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:01Lewis Howes?

  Series. So it's, uh, make sure you guys check that out. Few final questions I want to ask you. If you could go back seven years, the day this book came out, subtle art came out, and you could tell yourself from this perspective, one thing about love, one thing about success and one thing about self-worth. That you know now, from everything you've learned in the past seven years, to the day this came out, that first day, that first week, what would you share?

• 1:05:37Mark Manson?

  You know, it's funny. It's one of those things. It's like, I, I don't know if I would have listened to my, you know.

• 1:05:42Lewis Howes?

  You're probably would have. You're like, I gotta figure it out.

• 1:05:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah, like this is the thing about giving your past self advice. At least my past self would have been like, what do you know, old man? Like.

• 1:05:52Lewis Howes?

  You're too stubborn. Yeah.

• 1:05:53Mark Manson?

  Go back to 2023.

• 1:05:57Mark Manson?

  You said love, success and self-worth?

• 1:05:59Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:06:01Mark Manson?

  It's funny with love, like I don't know.

• 1:06:07Mark Manson?

  It's one of those things where like when you, when you put it in the words, it just sounds very eh, banal and lame, you know, but it's the steadiness of it over a long period of time.

• 1:06:22Mark Manson?

  It's something that you can't really, the feeling of security that you have when you've spent over a decade with the same person and they've been by your side through everything. Like it's something you can't really put into words. And obviously you can't find, just go find it down the street, right? Like it's, it is something that you literally put in the time for. And I, as somebody who struggled with commitment early in my life, that, that's something that I, that the value in that is something that I never really thought about for most of my life. And it's, it's been a real joy to get to experience it. That's cool.

• 1:07:06Mark Manson?

  Success, I just be like, dude.

• 1:07:11Mark Manson?

  Buckle up. Wow. It's a ride, man. No idea what's coming. I think the advice I would, I would give that six person, because you know, my, my mentality, and again, I remember having this conversation with my wife. I remember telling her, I'm like, look, this might not last. Like it's one of these things, like this thing's, you know, it's been a bestseller for three hundred weeks or whatever, but it's like, when it's been a bestseller for 10 weeks, you never know when it's going to stop. Like you, you keep thinking, you're like, okay, maybe another month and then, and then we're done, right? So the mentality was very much just say yes to everything. Like this is probably not, statistically, this isn't going to last for more than a few months. So every invitation, every opportunity, every media appearance, like just say yes, just do it.

• 1:07:56Mark Manson?

  You're young, you don't have any kids, like, you know, you'll sleep later, right? Sure. Well, after a few years of that, like that starts, that starts adding up. So I, I would go back and just tell myself, you know, I know, I know there's a little bit of scarcity mindset here, but like, don't forget that you can say no to things and, and it's going to be okay.

• 1:08:23Mark Manson?

  Self-worth, you know, I, it's funny because I don't.

• 1:08:29Mark Manson?

  It's actually strange, I think, how little self-worth I ended up tying up in this stuff.

• 1:08:41Mark Manson?

  I'm actually, it's funny, one of the joys of coming back to

• 1:08:48Mark Manson?

  my internet business the last year. I strangely, I take a lot more pride and derive a lot more self-worth from that. I think than my books or the movie like, and I don't know why that is. It's

• 1:09:05Mark Manson?

  it's very strange. You know, when my movie came out, there was.

• 1:09:12Mark Manson?

  It was surprising how much other people expected me to care way more than I did. Like other people were like, wow, this must be like.

• 1:09:20Lewis Howes?

  It's a big deal and this is a.

• 1:09:22Mark Manson?

  This is your capstone moment in your life and it's, you know, like it's. And everybody from the studio, people at the studio to friends and family to, you know, people at my publisher, they're like, man, like, God, your own movie. It's actually, it's gonna be in a theater like this must be like a thing. And I'm like, eh.

• 1:09:42Lewis Howes?

  Put it out there. Yeah.

• 1:09:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah, like it's just, it's more content, right? You know, so it's just, I think I'm just an internet dude like, and it's. And I think I have more of my identity and self-worth tied up in the entrepreneurial side.

• 1:09:56Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:09:57Mark Manson?

  Than necessarily like the

• 1:10:02Mark Manson?

  being a public figure.

• 1:10:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. This is a question I asked you, I must have been four or five years ago in the last interview. But you're in a much different space energetically now with more life experience. It's called the three truths. So imagine, maybe you don't remember because you're in your eighth interview that day. But imagine a hypothetical scenario and question. We went into your past self, we're gonna go to a future self. Imagine you get to live as long as you want. And now that you're on this health kick, you're gonna live with your hundred something. And you get to accomplish and create and be everything you want to be for the rest of your life. But it's the last day, many years away.

• 1:10:41Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 1:10:43Lewis Howes?

  And in this hypothetical world, you have to take everything with you you've created. So no one has access to any of your books, movies, content, YouTube, or whatever you create in the future. It's all gonna go somewhere else.

• 1:10:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Lewis Howes?

  But you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to to write three lessons that you would leave with the world. I like to call them three truths.

• 1:11:01Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 1:11:02Lewis Howes?

  This is all we have to remember your content by for the rest of time. What would be, what would be those three truths you would leave behind?

• 1:11:13Mark Manson?

  I, I, I would say

• 1:11:17Mark Manson?

  probably the most important one would be

• 1:11:21Mark Manson?

  don't be afraid of failure or pain, that that's actually where

• 1:11:29Mark Manson?

  the joys and successes of life are hidden.

• 1:11:34Mark Manson?

  I would say be careful how you define yourself and, and be careful how you measure success. Because no matter how you choose those things,

• 1:11:48Mark Manson?

  life's gonna sneak up on you and bite you in the, it's gonna find a way.

• 1:11:55Mark Manson?

  I guess the third thing,

• 1:11:59Mark Manson?

  I don't know, maybe it's because we opened with this, but, but love is not enough, that it's, it's, love is great, but it

• 1:12:07Mark Manson?

  can't be the foundation of a healthy relationship. It amplifies a healthy foundation.

• 1:12:17Lewis Howes?

  Got one more question for you, one final question, but I want to make sure everyone gets the book. If you haven't already read it, make sure you get a few copies. You've got a few other books as well, grab those. Movie, YouTube channel, make sure to subscribe to that. How else can we be of service to you today?

• 1:12:31Mark Manson?

  Oh, man, I don't know. Just like, enjoy your day.

• 1:12:35Lewis Howes?

  Enjoy your day.

• 1:12:38Mark Manson?

  Take care of yourself.

• 1:12:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Mark Manson?

  Show appreciation to people you care about.

• 1:12:42Lewis Howes?

  For sure, man. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Mark, because again, when I saw you last, I didn't recognize you.

• 1:12:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:48Lewis Howes?

  You have continued to transform the inside, not just the external success and all the different results you've gotten by creating more great content, but by creating a different world internally. And from shifting from more analytical to what it sounds like more emotional in your body and really taking a deeper dive into those those wounds, maybe from the past. So I really acknowledge you for going on the journey. I know how scary and painful it has been for me, and I can imagine it hasn't been easy to dive into those things. So I really acknowledge you. It's it's hard to let go of certain physical things like drinking or socializing in certain ways. When you've done it for so long,

• 1:13:30Lewis Howes?

  it's hard to let go of certain beliefs, conversations, friendships. So I really acknowledge you for going on this healing journey, man. It's really beautiful to watch.

• 1:13:41Mark Manson?

  Appreciate that.

• 1:13:42Lewis Howes?

  Of course. Final question. What is your definition of greatness?

• 1:13:46Mark Manson?

  I mean, don't I get like this is my third time here. Don't I get a pass on this one? I feel like I feel like this is this is

• 1:13:52Lewis Howes?

  I feel like it's evolved.

• 1:13:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:54Lewis Howes?

  You know, I feel like it's evolved. It's not the same for five years ago.

• 1:13:57Mark Manson?

  By the way, if anybody wants to, you know, check if my answers

• 1:14:02Lewis Howes?

  I bet they're different.

• 1:14:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah, then you could probably go back to my first interview.

• 1:14:08Mark Manson?

  Definition of greatness. I mean, I would just say

• 1:14:16Mark Manson?

  living up to the standards for for impact and contribution you have for yourself in the world.

• 1:14:22Lewis Howes?

  I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to

• 1:15:04Lewis Howes?

  sign up for the greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.