489 | Equipment Clutter

Ryan Nicodemus returns to talk about the things that enhance—and the things that get in the way of—enjoying the adventures, experiences, activities, and hobbies that make life more delightful. Discussed in this episode: How can I enjoy my adventures and hobbies without getting overwhelmed by the accessories and equipment that accompany those experiences? (2:33) What activities bring you joy, and what material things are an essential part of those activities? (21:40) Listener tip: Minimize the noise and opinions to uncover a quieter life. (44:22) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  This podcast has bad words.

• 0:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, and we're here with the man, the myth, the legend himself. Ryan Nicodemus is back in the studio. What's up, y'all?

• 0:56Speaker 02

  The boys are back.

• 0:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ah, hello, everybody. Coming up on the show today, we're talking about all the things that enhance and the things that get in the way of enjoying the hobbies and activities and adventures that make life more enjoyable. And coming up on this free public minimal episode, a caller has a question about getting overwhelmed by the new accessories that she needs for her outdoor adventures. And then we've got a question about the activities that bring you joy and the equipment that's essential for those activities. That's followed by our Right Here, Right Now segment and a beautiful listener tip. You can check out the maximal edition of episode 489. That's the full two-hour episode where we answer three times as many questions on Patreon.

• 1:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcast or Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to the very first episode. It's a full decade of podcast archives over there on Patreon. By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement-free because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Ooh, that's a great song, right?

• 2:12Speaker 02

  I've been practicing that all week.

• 2:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I can tell.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  That was really good.

• 2:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And just to know that wasn't auto-tuned, that's shocking.

• 2:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, let's get to our callers, y'all. If you have a question or comment for our show, we'd love to hear from you. Our phone number is 406-219-7839, or you can email a voice recording right from your phone to [email protected]. Our first question today is from Laurel in Columbus, Indiana.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  Hello, minimalists. I've been thinking a lot about hiking and outdoor living as winter starts to thaw and summer rolls in. It's the perfect time to reconnect with nature, but I've noticed how overwhelming the outdoor culture can feel when it comes to gear. Popular brands like Patagonia, Columbia, so many other outdoor stores seem to offer endless things we're told we really need to experience the outdoors. As someone trying to live more intentionally, how can my husband and I approach summer hiking, outdoor activity, without getting weighed down, literally and mentally, by all the

• 3:20Speaker 03

  stuff? How do we separate true preparedness from consumer-driven excess and create culture in my home where we enjoy the outdoors simply, sustainably, and with purpose? Thanks so much for all you do.

• 3:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I heard the first thing there about a culture of enjoyment, which I think is a great place from which to approach this, right? It's funny, I think about hobbies that often require equipment. And I think about basketball, growing up, and you know the guy who showed up to the basketball court with brand-new, like, tracksuit on and brand-new shoes and like, a basketball that clearly hadn't been dribbled outside yet. And he has like, the headband on and the wristbands. You're like, this guy's gonna get slaughtered. Is that what y'all used to say about me?

• 4:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, but you looked really good while getting slaughtered.

• 4:12Speaker 04

  Thanks, man.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  That's why you got slaughtered. They were jealous how good you looked.

• 4:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Exactly. We gotta teach this guy a lesson. You know, what's, what's funny about this is there's kind of two ways to approach it. There's a cosplay scenario, like I just described, where you're pretending, you're playing the role of a basketball player. Like, if I was in a movie, cast it as a basketball player, as an extra. What would that person be wearing? And yet, many of those things aren't required to enjoy the things that we enjoy. In fact, some of those things can get in the way. However, some things are absolutely necessary. If you go to a basketball court and you don't have a basketball, good luck playing basketball on the basketball court. So there are some things that are absolutely essential, that enhance the experience of whatever the hobby, or the activity, or the adventure is.

• 5:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now Laurel mentioned hiking in particular, and I was just in Sedona, Arizona, and I went on this long hike. And I didn't bring anything extra for that, although I did prepare accordingly. I brought the shoes I would wear hiking, when I go hiking in Ojai or wherever. I didn't need a bunch of excess. We brought some water bottles and a backpack that we already had, and that was about it. It was a really long hike, and parts of it were pretty arduous. And I saw some people who were truly prepared for it. You could tell they had hiked a lot. But then I saw a few people. I saw a group of three guys who looked like they had never gone hiking before, but you could tell because they looked like they were about to go on a hike.

• 5:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  They had all of the accoutrement for that hike. They had a lot of excess stuff that I imagine, as Laurel said, were weighing them down. Many of the things actually get in the way. You put too much stuff in that backpack. In fact, Savvy D., we just did a video about this on Instagram. We were at REI, and we use it as a metaphor. Like, when you go backpacking, you know to pack the essentials, but you also wouldn't pack an Xbox controller or a coffee table when you're going to go backpacking, because those things will simply get in the way. It's not to pathologize those things. Nothing wrong with them, but contextually, we know they get in the way. That's not the problem. The problem is the things we think we're going to use that actually end up getting in the way.

• 6:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I saw this group of three girls on that same hike, and they... I saw them on their way into the hike, and they were like... They were wearing all of their, like, nice athleisure stuff, which is totally fine for a pretty simple hike, but they had full makeup on. And I think I could smell the perfume coming off of them. I'm like, okay, they don't know what's ahead of them right now. Right? And we've all been in this scenario before where it's like, oh, I prepared for one thing, but didn't expect. And I saw them coming back on the trail afterward and the makeup was all either running or wiped off. And, and you could tell like, this is hot outside. It was sunny and they were sweating. And contextually, there was nothing wrong with the way they were dressed, but it didn't work for that scenario.

• 7:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so Ryan, when it comes, you are my friend who has all of the hobbies and those hobbies like snowboarding or even like skateboarding, whatever it might be, they require accessories.

• 7:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But sometimes those accessories can go too far. Where's your line?

• 7:28Speaker 04

  My line, um, I mean, I really try to carry as little as possible. So if I'm camping.

• 7:36Speaker 04

  It's funny. I was actually thinking, I'm like, if you go hiking, really all you need is a water bottle and shoes. Mariah and I were on a hike. It's called the Bridge to Nowhere, amazing hike over in like the Azusa area. It's an all day thing. It's like 11 miles in, 11 miles out.

• 7:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Wow.

• 7:53Speaker 04

  So hot. And we don't bring too much, but we actually ran into someone on that hiking trail who had like no water. They had nothing. And like they, they completely made it. I don't, I mean, they probably had a hard time, but they still made it.

• 8:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Was your makeup running by the end of it?

• 8:08Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely. So I was like, I'm looking at like, um, this question. I'm thinking about me going camping. And I'm almost like, I bet you I could go into those woods. If I really knew what I was doing, I could do the same exact thing on a three day camping trip. And so the question is like, what, what, what do you really need to be comfortable? And when it comes to outdoor activities, there are endless amounts of things that can be comfortable. The, but the way that I read this question, like, how can I enjoy my adventures and hobbies without getting overwhelmed by the accompanying equipment and accessories? You can't. Like, that's part of the hobby.

• 8:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  So the question is, is like, how many of those accessories can you actually let go of? The same question could be asked, like, how do I enjoy driving? But how do, with all the stop signs and red lights? How can I enjoy LA without the traffic? It's like, you can't.

• 9:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 9:00Speaker 04

  Like, that stuff comes with it.

• 9:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right, how can you, but you could, I mean, I think about Professor Sean as an example. He just doesn't drive. And so like, but that is a sacrifice he has to make.

• 9:10Speaker 04

  And that's a great example.

• 9:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  Of someone compensating for the stress that they have with this equipment. They find out another way to do it without it. So it's impossible for you to enjoy it without the accessories unless you simply just accept that as part of the process. So I think about snowboarding and I was just talking to my physical therapist about this. He was like, yeah, we went to Big Sky, but you know, my wife forgot her bibs and we had dogs with us and like, by the time we got on the hill, we were only able to go for a couple hours and we're supposed to be there for however long. And I'm like, yeah, dude, that's kind of the experience that I have with snowboarding. It's a pain in the butt to get up, to get ready, to get out the door. But then as soon as I get on the hill, I'm like, oh, this is why I do this and this is really amazing. It's part of the experience.

• 9:54Speaker 04

  So it's almost like I plan for those little frustrating bits and accept that that, those frustrating bits are part of the experience. What do they call that? Type two fun?

• 10:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 10:04Speaker 04

  Where it's like, all work in the beginning.

• 10:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Uh huh.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  And then at the end of it, it's all fun.

• 10:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, there's drudgery upfront and there's payoff at the end.

• 10:09Speaker 04

  Right, and with snowboarding, it's like drudgery, fun, and then more drudgery, like getting off the hill, getting back to the car, getting everything loaded up, you know, returning rental equipment, so forth and so on. So the short answer to the question is, it's impossible, Laurel, and with, if you're not enjoying it right now, it's impossible to enjoy it with the stuff. The only way that you would be able to enjoy your outdoor activities is either A, accept that this is part of it, learn how to accept it. That's not enjoyment, though, that's just acceptance. Or get rid of as much as you can and that's how you can go and travel a little bit lighter into your hobbies with a little bit less stuff.

• 10:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now TK, I love what Ryan said about comfort. He said, what are the things that? Make that activity comfortable. And the truth is, we often think we need more things to be comfortable. But also, part of the activity might mean enjoying the discomfort. The snowboarding, when you and, I mean, there's a lot of that that's uncomfortable, right? And the same is true with hiking. When I saw that group of three guys who had on like all their brand new REI equipment. Now, maybe like they just all went out and bought it because they knew they were taking this trip to Sedona. But they had so much stuff that they probably anticipated would help them be more comfortable. The backpack full of snacks and the double water bottles and the vest with all the pockets. And they looked the part.

• 11:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And these three guys also, one of, at least one of them had a ton of cologne on. And I could smell it as I walked past them on the trail.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  That's off the bears.

• 11:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's a special bear, anti-bear cologne. Nice. And, and so what I noticed here is that when you accumulate too much, it actually can make you uncomfortable. It's the, the heaping on of all of those accessories, the accumulation of accessories that you intended to bring on. Because in any one individual case, those things might make you more comfortable during this experience. But add it all up together, you are now swimming in a stew of discomfort.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  And the comfort compromises the creativity. By the way, I need a social experiment or YouTube video or something where you stand at the entry point of all the hiking trails. And when people come in with perfume or makeup or cologne, you can be like, brother, you don't know what you're in for.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  You know, I love, love, love, love, love what Ryan said about how a lot of these things that we complain about or that agitate us, it's part of the experience. And it just reminds me of how a true expression of your creativity can become something over time. When you get on, stuck on autopilot, something that feels like it's victimizing you. There's so many things that there's no reason why we're in that position, other than we chose to do it because there's something that we want it. But after a while, it just kind of starts to feel like this thing you have to do, like you. Chose to go to the amusement park, you chose to go to the hiking trail, you chose to travel to see your sister in a different state.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  But then when you find yourself in that line at the car rental, which you chose to rent, or in line at the airport, or in line for the roller coaster. It's like, man, I gotta wait on this line and I, and now I have to find a park and I have to do. And you knew all of that before, like all of that was an argument for you to say no to what you wanted before, but you said yes in spite of that. But when you live on autopilot and you're not taking the time to reflect on your why, you just kind of feel like you have to do all these things. And you're kind of a victim of your own creative expression. And what Ryan pointed out is that sometimes when we just pause and we just express gratitude for the entirety of the experience.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  We realize, yeah, the unpredictability, the uncertainty, the discomfort, having to carry something, having to put up with another human being. Having to consider someone other than myself, yeah, this is all part of that experience and it's beautiful and I can lean into that. So I really, really, really love that. One thing I did want to say is she talked about how we go into these stores and we see all of these things that we didn't know we needed. And it just makes me think of how, how funny and true it is that we can literally know that something didn't exist. We can literally fail to know that something existed. And then 10 seconds later, once we find out about it, we absolutely need it.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Imagine if I told you there's a coffee mug that has the power to actually pull the hydrogen and the oxygen from the air. And make the hot water right there in your mug, don't you need that?

• 14:37Speaker 04

  Patent pending.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  It's like, I need that. I didn't even know that existed, but now I need it, right? And, and, and we can be perfectly fine, but you walk into that store and you see something, oh my gosh, that's so much better than what I have. That's so much more convenient. I gotta have it. And so one of my strategies for stuff like this, especially when I'm going shopping for a specific purpose, I'm going to do something. And I'm going to look at what I need is I try to think about what I want at the level of what I can remember and what I think I need. And I try to give myself ample time for that. And then I, I add plus one. Now, when I go to the store, I know for sure I'm going to see something that someone's going to convince me that I need. And I give myself permission to get one thing.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  And that's it. That's it. You know, a- and that actually provides you with an incentive to really think through what it is you want for you. Because what we come to, what we decide when we're left to our own devices is very different than when our senses are bombarded by the collective expression of human creativity directed towards this. It's like, oh, man, there's just an endless expression of creativity. There's always something cool we haven't heard of, but what do you need for you?

• 15:52Speaker 04

  You brought up a really good question earlier, Josh, as far as like, do I want to play basketball or do I want to look like I play basketball?

• 15:59Speaker 04

  And I think about like, uh, you know, the Sherpas in, uh, Mount Everest. It's like, they hike that mountain with nothing. Hardly anything. And then they got all these, you know, people with all this gear and everything, and those Sherpas are by far the best hikers. So it's like the equipment does not define how good you are. What defines how good you are is like how much, A, you love it and how much you invest in that activity.

• 16:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. Yeah. I also think about another question there is what do I not want to carry? And that was part of the hike when I was out there in Sedona. I knew we were going on this relatively long hike and parts of it were kind of steep. And I knew I didn't want a bunch of excess, even though there were a few things that might make me more comfortable here in the studio. If I bring it with me, it's actually going to make me way less comfortable. What do I not want to carry? Literally, but also metaphorically, like what is weighing me down mentally about all of this? And it sounds like with Laurel, what's weighing her down, which by the way, she lives in Columbus, Indiana, which is like the modern, mid-century modern architecture capital of maybe the world.

• 17:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's amazing. They made a movie about it. It's a dramatic sort of thing that happens in Columbus, Indiana. It's just called Columbus. And so there's something about appreciating the beauty of the city she's in. But in order to appreciate that, you probably don't need a bunch of excess accessories. As Ryan pointed out, you might be able to get rid of many of the things. What can I do without here? Which brings me to the no junk rule. We use that in our homes all the time. And in fact, Laura, I'd encourage you to download the free minimalist rulebook we have on our website. Just go to the minimalist. Click on resources there and you can download the minimalist rulebook. It's 16 rules for living with less. Ryan and I also did the audiobook version of that. So we'll be happy to send that to you if you'd prefer to listen to it.

• 17:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But the no junk rule, you look at your home, you say, everything in here goes in one of three piles. Literally everything I own, I don't care if you own 100 items or 500,000 items. Everything you own can fit in one of three piles. It's either essential, it's value adding, but non essential, or it is junk. Unfortunately, especially with things like hiking or travel. When we pack a bunch of extra things, just in case, contextually, they may not be junk. But in this context, they often are junk. Or more often than not, they're these things that are non essential, but they add value. The question is, in what context? Because yeah, water adds value for my hike. But if I need to pack 300 gallons of water, now all of a sudden it ceases to add value.

• 18:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It actually gets in the way. And that brings me back to what is essential for this? And then what few things do I need that might add value to this? And then for a short period of time, I'll temporarily deprive myself. I remove that from the equation. Okay, yeah, as Ryan said, maybe water is really helpful, but can I go on a short hike without water? Yeah, I do it every day in Ojai. I'll hike a couple of miles and it's not a problem. I can drink water before I leave and when I get back home because I don't want to carry it with me.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  There's something about, I don't know, I've had this idea of like formlessness in my mind a lot lately. And I think about how someone who dresses up to look like the basketball player, they're so focused on form. They're not focused on the activity. And any activities we do, it's almost like with sports, you know, let's just keep going with a sport analogy. Basketball is a sport, right? Yeah, it's like, that is formless.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  And the best basketball players are formless. Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan because that's who he is and he loved the game. No one else can have the same form he has. And LeBron James, the much better basketball player.

• 19:39Speaker 05

  Oh, stop. And there's fighting words.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  He's got his own form, you know?

• 19:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 04

  And that's and every good basketball player, I mean Larry Bird, like all of them have their own style. They have created their own form, but they didn't do it by focusing on the form.

• 19:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, it reminds me of Nolan Ryan's fastball when he was pitching in the eighties. And I remember hearing about his fastball. I went to my, I went to my mom and I said, I want to buy a fastball. And she's like, what? I thought the ball is the thing that made it go faster.

• 20:12Speaker 04

  That's awesome.

• 20:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  As opposed to Nolan Ryan was the thing that made it go faster. And so last thing I'll, I'll leave Laurel with here is a new way to think about it. We know about like wanting what you have as opposed to getting what you want. But in a weird way, wanting what you have is the shortcut to getting what you want. If you want what you have, then you've already gotten what you want. The question here for you is what do I want out of this hiking experience? Maybe I want to go rucksacking and I do want to carry 50 pounds with me because that's going to improve my ability and to hike long distances and increase my strength, et cetera. But for most of us, we don't want to carry the excess with us.

• 20:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And when we carry that excess with us, we're actually getting more of what we don't want. All right, before we get back to our callers, Malibu, what time is it?

• 21:06Speaker 05

  You know what time it is. It's time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week.

• 21:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, indeed. Now during the lightning round, we attempt to answer your question with a short, shareable, minimal maxim. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every Monday for free. If you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.e-mail, we'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we will start your week off. With a dose of simplicity. What's the question of the week this week?

• 21:42Speaker 05

  What activities bring you joy? And what material things are an essential part of those activities?

• 21:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ryan, before we get to our pithy answers here, I want to hear from some of our simpletons. Bama, what did our listeners have to say?

• 21:53Speaker 05

  Steffi said, I do fitness boxing, yoga and Krav Maga, which requires gloves, mats, tape, sportswear, water bottles and so on. But it's really fun and it helps me relax my body and mind. Every piece of equipment has its place and does not get in the way.

• 22:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think that is the essence here of what we're talking about. Every piece of equipment has its place and does not get in the way. Now, fun little experiment, Ryan, might be like, okay. Are there, is there anything here that I could actually go without for a short period of time? Now, some things you know most likely not. You try to go snowboarding without the snowboard. I don't even know what you would call that, falling?

• 22:30Speaker 04

  Falling, rolling down a hill. Well, it's interesting because like the Krav Maga, it's like, you know, they didn't start that sport with those things.

• 22:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Okay.

• 22:38Speaker 04

  That's just what we use now.

• 22:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Explain what Krav Maga is for the uninformed.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  I, it's a martial arts type. I think Mallory could probably explain it more.

• 22:45Speaker 05

  I'm not as familiar with Krav Maga.

• 22:47Speaker 04

  But it's martial arts, right?

• 22:48Speaker 05

  It's martial arts. I mean, look, what this amenity makes me think of is when I first started doing jujitsu, that that requires a uniform because the uniform is a tool and a part of the martial arts. You are grabbing the lapel, the collar, the belt, the pants as a way to actually spar and roll with other people. And for me, I had just one uniform and I was training multiple times a week. And you have to wash it every time you use it because it's clean and it needs to smell nice. And it got to a point for me where I realized, oh, I need more of this. This is something that will actually help me and be less stressful for that. Then you look at like stuff like camping. It's like, I've had a shiwi for like a 10, 10 year period. I've never used it before.

• 23:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What's a shiwi?

• 23:28Speaker 05

  Oh, my gosh. Okay. So for, for females that go camping and it's uncomfortable because you have to just kind of like squat in the woods. It's like a funnel that you use to where you can, you can stand while you do that. And that was something that was brand new and was gifted to me and I camp all the time, but I've never used it. So it's like, uh, I don't, I don't think I need this to augment my camping experience, but I do need a second and third gi because that is what's required of that hobby for me. But yeah, so anyways, Krav Maga, yes, very cool. There's a bunch of different martial arts that require a bunch of different things. And depending on how seriously you want to take that and train it, yes, you can get the mats that are safe for you to, to be able to practice your drills and things.

• 24:09Speaker 05

  You can get the tape that helps your hands when they are calloused or cracked open or what have you. But it is, it's good to be aware of that as you go and, and use what you need when you need it. And, and tap into that community. Hey, does anybody have any extra tape? I rolled my ankle last week. Can I, can I borrow some? Like that's, that's where that's really helped me with these, these hobbies that can be a little bit of a slippery slope because you suddenly need all of these things to make it more and more comfortable. But discomfort is part of that process.

• 24:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right. Ryan, don't you like the fact that we were, we were born with built in hee-wees?

• 24:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, lucky you.

• 24:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hee-wee. I don't need to pack anything extra. But she brings up a really good point, needing an extra gi or two gi, whatever you need. Let's say, how many do you have now? Two or three? Okay. So you have three and that's what you found to be appropriate for you. Now let's say I gave you 30, would that add 10 times more value?

• 25:01Speaker 05

  It'd add 10 times more laundry, that's for sure.

• 25:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right, right. And I think the same is true with Ryan and snowboarding. Now you can own multiple snowboards because there are different occasions. Or Savvy D has a skateboard. I imagine you have more than one skateboard, don't you?

• 25:14Speaker 06

  It's honestly getting out of hand right now. I seriously like, last week I had maybe 35 skateboard decks in my closet. And I just got a box from one of my sponsors of 12 more, which is such a good problem to have. And I'm blessed to be able to have that problem. But at the same time, I'm like, man, I gotta like get storage for this.

• 25:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But the dude's literally pro.

• 25:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. Like, and so my point is though, let's say, so you, let's say you have 30 skateboards. If you brought all 30 to the skate park in one day, what's that going to do for you?

• 25:48Speaker 06

  Now that'd be a dilemma.

• 25:50Speaker 04

  He would be the most popular person there handing out skateboards.

• 25:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right, but if you tried to use all of them, we know like now you have to pack it all in the car. You're doing a bunch of things that are superfluous. Ryan, if you brought five snowboards to the mountain with you, four of them were going to get in the way.

• 26:07Speaker 04

  Of course. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's even like with the snow equipment.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  I bought like overalls and like a nice zip in jacket. It's like a whole system that when I put it on, I'm like, oh my God, this is a game changer. But it was a game changer because like my butt wasn't cold all the time. And it really protected me from moisture and like it, you know, whatever. But for decade, leading up to that, all I had was like a fleece and some crappy snow pants that got wet really easily. And I'd wear like jeans underneath of them, but I still snowboarded just fine.

• 26:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 26:42Speaker 04

  And, uh, you know, very lucky and privileged to be able to like buy, you know, this $500 zip in system that, you know, that because it's expensive stuff, man. Um, and I am grateful to have it, but the truth is I don't need it and I would still snowboard without it.

• 26:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right. That's, that's that second category, the things that are non-essential, but they do add value to the experience. However, and part of that is through experimentation. Sometimes you have to rent these things before buying them if they're really expensive to see whether or not it makes sense. Because what happens is you buy the thing and you don't get the value you thought you were going to get on it. Just like when you buy a shirt and it looks way better on the mannequin than it does on me. Not Ryan, it always looks better on Ryan than it does the mannequin. But, um, when you buy something, you imagine it's going to add all this value and then it doesn't. And so what we do is we keep holding on to it because we're holding on to the imaginary value of the thing. Instead of being willing to let go of the thing that doesn't actually add the value we thought it would.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Man, you know what I love about Ryan? And, and, and his embodiment of this principle is truly what gives meaning to things. Is he is always willing to try to find a way to do something he wants to do, even in the absence of the things we're all told we need in order to do them. I, I, I believe he would find a way to try to go skateboarding even if he didn't have a skateboard. I, I don't know what that looks like, but I think he's the brother that would try. And he doesn't even have to win according to anyone's idea of winning. I think he'd be like, I'll go with you guys skateboarding and I'll just run around and jump around as you guys skateboard. But he would, he would be there, he would try something, he would have a good time.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  And he would never be the guy to say, well, yeah, I didn't try that thing that I wanted to do because I didn't have the things. And he would do that in a way that wouldn't require him to be dishonest about the importance of those things and the role that those things play. And I, I just, I just think we need so much more of that.

• 28:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What you're describing is the, the man who invented parkour. You tell me Ryan like basically, oh, I'll just go and jump around over things with a skateboard.

• 28:45Speaker 04

  And then I got my Heelys.

• 28:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He just has one though, so he skates on the right foot really well.

• 28:53Speaker 04

  They literally make shoes with like, uh, uh, grind, like grind plastic. What do you, what do you call those? The grind, like to grind a rail? Like they have little inserts, plastic that kind of come to a triangle. So you, on shoes.

• 29:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Uh huh.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  I guess it would be for parkour. They're like, literally you could just like, with your shoes grind a rail. It's insane.

• 29:16Speaker 05

  That's crazy.

• 29:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You definitely would have done that as a teen.

• 29:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 29:19Speaker 05

  Parkour is like the most minimalist thing you can do because it's literally just you and your environment. And it's, it's like hiking and it's so easy for us to over complicate that.

• 29:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love that thought too, Bama, because what you're saying there is like, what's the minimalist version of X? And that's always a great question to ask. It doesn't mean you have to do it or want to do it, but you're like, hey, I'm at the skate park and I don't have a skateboard today. Well, what's the minimalist version? I could borrow one. That's a minimalist version. I could rent one. Okay. Maybe if there's one available, right? I could go to Craigslist, see if there's one that's super cheap right now I could just play with. Or maybe, how would this look if I got rid of the equipment altogether? That's what I loved about TK when he said, you know, I love about Ryan. I thought he was going to say his B D E, his big declutter energy here. He's always willing to let go.

• 30:07Speaker 04

  We need to have a little dick joke here on this thing.

• 30:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Post-production theater, you can add the dings in throughout the episode.

• 30:16Speaker 04

  I can't wait for the private podcast.

• 30:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So good. Anyway, let's, we got, let's do one more listener here and then we'll talk about our pithy answers. Perry had something for us.

• 30:25Speaker 05

  Perry said, trying to live sustainably brings me a lot of joy and for that I need various things like reusable bags, a sewing kit, jars that I can bring to bulk food stores, a set of travel cutlery and a travel mug. So I can avoid, avoid using single use items.

• 30:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  This is one of those things where if we play dress up with sustainability, it can be far, far worse. Now, this isn't Perry. Perry understands like, I actually use these things. But I also understand the desire because we want to live responsibly. We want to live sustainably. We all want to be card carrying members of the good person club and we want to do our part. And so like, yeah, I have this, this mug here in front of me that's reusable that I use every day. But you know, it'd be bad if I just bought this because I want to be the type of person who's sustainable. But then I just never use it. It sits on a shelf. That happens all the time where we buy the canvas bag. That's like the, the environmental equivalent of buying a thousand paper bags.

• 31:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No problem at all. If I'm going to use it 2,000 times, I just saved a thousand paper bags then, right? But if I just go buy all the nicest canvas bags or, or all of the, well, the Stanley cups were such a big thing a year ago. And it's like, okay, nothing wrong with those things, but am I actually going to use them? Or do I want to appear to be the type of person who is sustainable?

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you guys think it would be a useful sort of litmus test to ask yourself, hey, where do I want to be comfortable and where am I willing to be uncomfortable?

• 31:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. And maybe even a third question on top of that, where do I want to be uncomfortable? Because that's where TK and Ryan make me super uncomfortable, especially Ryan. We're together in private, very, very uncomfortable.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  Where do you think I get it from, Dad?

• 32:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, I love when you call me Dad.

• 32:18Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 32:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So, uh, what was I, what was he saying here? I don't know.

• 32:22Speaker 04

  Uncomfortable.

• 32:23Speaker 05

  Where do you want to be uncomfortable?

• 32:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Where do I want to be uncomfortable? Because like, yeah, you go to the gym, you go to the gym and you expect to be uncomfortable. I go swimming every day and the last 10 laps are always the ones that are the most uncomfortable for me to do, but that's where I want to be. I, where do I want to be uncomfortable?

• 32:41Speaker 02

  I mean, when we're bored, I mean, like really, really bored, it's because we're so damn comfortable that we're uncomfortable.

• 32:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  And we crave some adventure in the form of some, the discomfort of uncertainty, the discomfort of risk.

• 32:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And maybe the shortcut for that, Ryan, sometimes is like, I'll just go buy the accessories for the thing that I want to do. And then it feels like a proxy for actually doing that thing without doing it. If I dress up like the basketball player or the hiker or whatever you want it to be, whatever sport you're going to play, activity, hobby, et cetera. If I dress up like that, then I don't even have to do the thing. I was cosplaying the whole time.

• 33:17Speaker 04

  It's almost like, to answer your question, TK, it's almost like for me, I just accept being uncomfortable. Like, and I don't even realize it. So with snowboarding, it's like I was so uncomfortable with like bad equipment that I was just like, oh, this must be part of the experience. And like hiking and sweating and, you know, feet hurting and whatever, oh, this must be part of the experience. And so it's not until like, uh, maybe I'm introduced to something like, you know, I bought that zip and stuff because my clothes were falling apart. I'm like, oh, it is possible to be more comfortable. So I guess what I'm trying to get at is it's, uh, for me, it's not a measurement of like how much discomfort I'm willing to have. I just accept that like this stuff is uncomfortable. And if it's too uncomfortable, like when my clothes are falling apart, then I'm going to go look for some comfort, you know?

• 34:02Speaker 04

  If that makes any sense.

• 34:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, makes plenty. How about you, listeners? What activities bring you joy and what material things are an essential part of those activities? We have a lot of chat going on in the Patreon community chat. You can let us know over there. Patreon community chat, by the way, is free to join, even if you don't subscribe to the minimalist private podcast. Okay, give me something pithy, TK. What activities bring you joy and what material things are an essential part of those activities?

• 34:32Speaker 02

  All matter matters.

• 34:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Uh oh, wait.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Wait, what?

• 34:37Speaker 02

  My pithy quote is, "All matter matters, but only spirit makes it sacred." I love things, and I want a world filled with things. Because it's things that makes the concretization of ideas possible. It's things that makes it possible for us to embody our values. It's things that make it possible for us to express our creativity. Things bring us together. You know, we connect over food. We say, "Let's get together over coffee." Guys watch sports and debate over it as a way of saying, "I love you," without being too direct about it. We need things as a kind of medium through which we can channel our love and conduct our creativity. And I love connecting with people, and I think things make that possible.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  And it's not so much about pursuing the absence of things for me. It's about sort of introducing that sense of meaning that comes from recognizing that things are how we say, "I love you" to one another, you know?

• 35:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right, and there's something about the using of the things that's really important here. The things are not the important things. It's how we use them. They're part of the experience. Do they enhance my experience? Do they magnify the experience? Do they amplify the experience? Because, yes, just having a basketball in your closet doesn't connect you with other people. In fact, it disconnects you even from yourself. It may even disconnect you from others. The hoarding of too many accoutrements. The hoarding of things gets in the way of the very thing that we hope to do. Which, that's my pithy answer here, the things are not the important things. But I got one other one for you as well. Happiness cannot be acquired, it can only be uncovered.

• 36:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We often seek happiness externally, as though if I bought the snowboard, I bought the basketball, I bought the skateboard, I bought the jujitsu gi, that's gonna make me happier, fulfill me. It's not, but it's also not gonna do the thing for you. Now, I do imagine there's a time when certain equipment and accessories paraphernalia, the things that do enhance the experience. Savvy D, I'm wondering with you, was there a time where having fewer skateboards, or maybe a less ideal skateboard, actually improved your skating at all?

• 36:48Speaker 06

  Um, I mean, right now I kind of have an overabundance.

• 36:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, right. But was there a time in, in your childhood where you were learning to skate? And this is a sincere question. I'm just wondering, were there, was there any stumbles or suffer, sufferings that made your skill set a bit better?

• 37:07Speaker 06

  Um, I mean, I think there's beauty in when you're first starting out skating, you just ride the, the shittiest piece of wood, you know? It, it's just like a plank at that point and you're riding it for like a year straight. And that's, it's just like unacceptable.

• 37:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 37:23Speaker 06

  But it for, like, when you're able to do a trick on that, then when you have a brand new board, it's like, you can do anything, you know? And I feel like there's something beautiful about that.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. No, I mean, it makes me think of my like first snowboard and how I just thought that it was supposed to go that fast down the hill and that hard to ride. And then I got my second snowboard, literally one of two snowboards in my life. And the second one, it was exactly what you're saying, cause like I had practiced so much on that crappy board. Then I got the board that actually, uh, you know, maneuvered well, had like good grip to it. Um, literally like the tag on it was like, uh, you know, pop, pop, uh, higher and, uh, don't catch edges and like all this gimmicky stuff. And like, as I'm using it, I'm like, oh my God, I can pop higher and I'm not catching edges as easy.

• 38:13Speaker 04

  And like, and I can be, I am a better boarder because of it, but it's almost like to what he's saying, there's a beauty in like using a crappy piece of equipment and getting good with it. And then you get a good piece of equipment and you know what to do with it.

• 38:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. I think sometimes there's the opposite of that too. I think about when I, I bought a guitar, my first guitar when I was 26 years old. It's still the guitar I have now, that Taylor guitar that I've had for almost two decades. And I bought it because the novel I was writing, the main character was a singer songwriter. And so I'm like, I need to at least embody him and better understand. And I went and started playing guitars and I didn't like it very much. And then I played this specific Taylor guitar. I was at the Guitar Center in Dayton, Ohio, or it's near the Dayton Mall. And I pulled it off the shelf and I just start playing and I'm like, oh, I want to play this. Not I have to learn this, I get to play this. And so sometimes when you find the right accessory.

• 39:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I don't need a hundred guitars. I have one guitar that'll probably last me for the rest of my life unless I break it. And I get to play it as opposed to that's the thing that I feel like I, I guess I'll play that.

• 39:20Speaker 04

  That makes me think how I bought a mandolin not too long ago.

• 39:23Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:23Speaker 04

  And I'm about ready to get rid of it, dude, because I don't enjoy playing it. It's like, I should have bought, I didn't want to get a full guitar. And I talked to Peter Dorn and he's like, get one of those like little mini guitars. And I'm like, no, I'm gonna do the mandolin. Because like the scales and like what I'm realizing is like, I just don't like playing a mandolin.

• 39:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:38Speaker 04

  So same thing with the surfboard. When I lived in LA, like I surfed. And then when I moved, you can't surf in Montana. I mean, I guess you can on, you know, on the river. Yeah, but, but I'm not that avid of a surfer.

• 39:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 39:51Speaker 04

  That's just it. So I gave it away. Like, actually, it was much better given away than if I took it with me. I was throwing axes and the dude who was showing us, like, you know, you tip him at the end. And he had told me how he just moved to LA and how he wants to surf. I'm like, I'm leaving LA. And I have a surfboard. I'm like, this is your tip. I'm gonna bring it to you tomorrow. And he was so jazzed, dude.

• 40:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's amazing.

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Everything. Yeah, it was awesome.

• 40:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Imagine if you held on to that and you're like, well, I need a storage locker for it. And now you're paying to hold on to the thing that's no longer surfing you.

• 40:17Speaker 04

  Driving out here with a surfboard on my roof, because that's what I would end up doing anyway.

• 40:21Speaker 05

  Just in case there's extra time.

• 40:22Speaker 04

  Oh, my goodness, yeah.

• 40:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So I imagine the other question here, like, what things can I own? That will make this activity more enjoyable? And what things are actually going to make it less enjoyable, less comfortable, less desirable for me? And we get back to Laurel's question or some of the questions that are coming up. I think that will be the theme here is like, okay, yeah, there are some things that I need. But what are those things serving? I'm not just buying the things to own the things, to play the role, to cosplay as some sort of basketball player or jujitsu player. I am owning these things because they enhance the experience of the very thing that I want to do. Give me something pithy, Ryan, to round out the lightning round.

• 41:06Speaker 04

  Uh, where's my answer? Here it is. Joy is the default state that requires us to avoid unpleasant activities. So as Josh was saying, it cannot be, uh, it cannot be acquired. It is always there and it has to be uncovered. I mean, a baby is born with joy. And if someone is not experiencing joy, it's not because they need to do more things. They need to figure out the things to do to bring them joy. It's really looking at like, what am I doing in my life that is covering up this joy? And it is removing the activities. It's not doing more activities.

• 41:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right. What's going to bring that joy out of me? Because it is the default state and we've simply covered it up with a bunch of clutter. All right. That's almost the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of colors to talk to, but first, real quick for right here, right now, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist. We have some upcoming Sunday symposiums. We'll be in Orange County this month, a brand new venue. Savvy D and I were just out there. He found the most amazing venue in Orange County. We needed to expand a bit because last time we were in Orange County, there are people sitting on the floor, on rugs and all this other stuff. And it was a great intimate experience. We're still keeping this under 200 people. We found a venue that we, that we would really enjoy. So we hope to see you there.

• 42:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We'll also be in LA in June, in Santa Barbara in July. You can get your free tickets. Get them before they sell out. They always do because they're free over at Sunday Symposium.com. Orange County, LA, or Santa Barbara. We hope to see you there. All the details over at Sunday Symposium.com. And speaking of live events, Malibu is gonna be in Germany next week.

• 42:40Speaker 05

  Yes, I am. I am so stoked about this, you guys. I've been planning this trip for 15 years with my dad. And it's finally, the stars have aligned. We are going to go together. And I wanted to take a moment to just thank all of the people that have been emailing me and giving me an opportunity to practice my German and communicating with me in the fam's chats. So for anybody that is in the Germany area during next week, I'm going to be just kind of meeting with folks at a, at a beer garden in Cologne. We can grab a beer, say hi and, and quiz. Me on my German, meet Papa Bama, I guess, if you want to.

• 43:20Speaker 05

  It's a very laid back thing, just as a, as an opportunity to, to say hi and you get to see my face, which I don't show often as a voice actor. But really stoked to meet everybody. So if you're interested and you want to meet up, you can send an email to podcast at the minimalists.com and we'll send you the details. Once we pick where we're going, what time we'll be there, but try to find something that's, that's going to fit everybody and we just have a beer and have a good time.

• 43:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That'll be the week of May 12th. And yeah, so anyone who's in Germany or might be in Germany, if you're interested, just send an email to podcast at the minimalists.com. We'll get that over to Mallory and you can meet her in person.

• 43:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  And Papa Bama is really cool, too.

• 44:01Speaker 05

  He's so cool. I'm so stoked.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  He's literally a rock.

• 44:04Speaker 05

  He does not speak German, but he is, he is going to smile the whole time nonetheless.

• 44:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He's bringing his translator, so that's even better.

• 44:11Speaker 05

  I said, you speak the language, baby. We're good.

• 44:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All good. All right. Well, you can see us in Southern California and you can see Bama in Germany next week. We hope to see you there. Bama, what else you got for us?

• 44:22Speaker 05

  Here's a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.

• 44:25Speaker 07

  Hi, Josh, TK, Malabam and everyone behind the minimalist podcast. This is Carolini calling from Australia and I'm a patron subscriber. I'm sending a message to comment about how to minimize for new diversity. One thing that I, that when I was diagnosed with ADHD four years ago, I, I did and helped me immensely was minimize social commitments. So clear my calendar and being quite intentional how I spend my weekends. Spending time in nature and definitely rethinking about how environments impact me. And that might be donating things, but also moving things around, packing things away, not comparing yourself with others.

• 45:10Speaker 07

  Because I find minimizing noise was very important. And by noise, I mean other people's opinions. Like I also deleted social media because I found social media was one more thing that made my attention go to a place that I didn't felt was, I didn't feel was productive. Because of time blindness, I didn't realize how much time I was spending on, on these platforms. So the moment I deleted all my social media, my life became increasingly better and more productive.

• 45:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Carolini, thank you so much for that thoughtful comment. Coming up on page two, I want to talk to both of you, TK and Ryan, about your thoughts on minimizing social commitments. I think we're going to get appreciably different answers because Ryan is the extreme extrovert, TK is an introvert, and so they can duke it out and form some sort of détente there on page two. But for anyone else who has a listener tip or insight about this episode, or any other episode, you can send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 46:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, that's the first 33% of episode 489. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition with Ryan Nicodemus, which includes answers to a bunch more questions. Questions like, how can I declutter if my job requires me to hold on to a bunch of just-in-case items? Should I buy new luggage if I need more room to pack my travel essentials? And what do people do to reverse the philosophy, mindset, and practice of minimizing too much? Plus, a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalists private podcast on Patreon. Big thanks to Ryan Nicodemus for joining us in the studio today. Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. You can check him out at ryannicodemus.com.

• 47:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  His mentoring message is there whenever he sends those out. And you can check him out here on this podcast whenever he's in California. We'll drag him back in the studio whenever he's here. That is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Malibu, post-production Peter, Spire Jeff, Inspire Dave, Savvy D. on the board, and the rest of our team. Oh, and Mariah is on the couch here today as well. We have our studio audience of one. My name is Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.

• 47:44Speaker 05

  Bye, everybody.