#570: Marine Biologist Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson on How to Catalyze Change with Awe and Wonder, How to Save the Planet, Finding Your Unique Venn Diagram of Strength, and Seeking the Minimum Effective Dose

Marine Biologist Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson on How to Catalyze Change with Awe and Wonder, How to Save the Planet, Finding Your Unique Venn Diagram of Strength, and Seeking the Minimum Effective Dose | Brought to you by Helium 10 https://helium10.com/tim all-in-one software suite to sell on Amazon, Pique Tea http://piquetea.com/tim premium tea crystals, and Athletic Greens http://athleticgreens.com/tim all-in-one nutritional supplement. More on all three below. Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson https://www.ayanaelizabeth.com/ (@ayanaeliza https://twitter.com/ayanaeliza) is a marine biologist, policy expert, writer, and Brooklyn native. She is co-founder of Urban Ocean Lab http://bit.ly/UrbanOceanLab, a think tank for coastal cities, and co-creator of the Spotify/Gimlet podcast How to Save a Planet https://gimletmedia.com/shows/howtosaveaplanet, on climate solutions. She co-edited the bestselling climate anthology All We Can Save http://www.allwecansave.earth/anthology and co-founded The All We Can Save Project http://allwecansave.earth/project. Recently, she co-authored the Blue New Deal https://collectiv.in/BND-WarrenPlan, a roadmap for including the ocean in climate policy. Previously, she was executive director of the Waitt Institute, developed policy at the EPA and NOAA, and taught as an adjunct professor at New York University. Dr. Johnson earned a BA in environmental science and public policy from Harvard University and a Ph. D. in marine biology from Scripps Institution of Oceanography. She publishes widely, including in The New York Times http://bit.ly/NYT-UrbanOcean, The Washington Post https://bit.ly/WaPoClimateBLM, and Scientific American http://bit.ly/SciAm-AEJ. She is on the 2021 TIME100 Next List https://time.com/collection/time100-next-2021/5937679/ayana-elizabeth-johnson/ and was named one of Elle‘s 27 Women Leading the Charge to Protect Our Environment https://collectiv.in/Elle27. Outside magazine called her https://bit.ly/OutsideMag2 “the climate leader we need.” Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by Helium 10 https://helium10.com/tim! Helium 10 https://helium10.com/tim is an all-in-one software suite designed to help entrepreneurs launch, manage, and scale a profitable e-commerce business on Amazon and Walmart.com. Whether you are an entrepreneur who wants to start a business on your own terms or you want to scale your existing e-commerce operations, Helium 10 https://helium10.com/tim is here to help. They process more than 2 billion data points daily, have a robust 450+ million ASIN database, and provide at-a-glance analytics like seasonal trends for products, profit estimates, and more. Join more than 1 million Helium 10 users worldwide by signing up for a free account at Helium10.com/Tim http://helium10.com/tim! * This episode is also brought to you by Pique Tea http://piquetea.com/Tim! I first learned about Pique through my friends Dr. Peter Attia and Kevin Rose, and now Pique http://piquetea.com/Tim’s fermented pu’er tea crystals have become my daily go-to. I often kickstart my mornings with their Pu’er Green Tea and Pu’er Black Tea, and I alternate between the two. Their crystals are cold-extracted, using only wild-harvested leaves from 250-year-old tea trees. Plus, they triple toxin screen for heavy metals, pesticides, and toxic mold—contaminants commonly found in tea. I also use the crystals for iced tea, which saves a ton of time and hassle. Pique http://piquetea.com/Tim is offering 15% off of their pu’er teas http://piquetea.com/Tim, exclusively to my listeners. Simply visit PiqueTea.com/Tim http://piquetea.com/Tim, and the discount will be automatically applied. They also offer a 30-day satisfaction guarantee, so your purchase is completely risk free. Just go to PiqueTea.com/Tim http://piquetea.com/Tim to learn more. * This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim by Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and five free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product. * Why is Ayana not doing much public-facing stuff right now, and why did she choose to make an exception for this conversation? [06:59] When did Ayana know marine biology and conservation were in her blood, and that she could actually pursue a career that wove all of her dream jobs together? [10:33] What superpowers did Ayana inherit from her parents? [17:18] Why do snorkeling and scuba diving provide such a transformative experience for so many humans? How does this drive home the immediacy of our climate crisis in a way that can’t be ignored? [26:31] Why are Ayana’s parents the coolest? [32:34] How can we get people excited about course-correcting climate change from a perspective of awe and wonder instead of hopeless guilt? [35:42] Can Ayana guess which episode of her podcast I recently shared with my 5-Bullet Friday readers and why? [42:01] Can Ayana guess which episodes of her podcast I might be hesitant to share? [48:53] On the need for linguistic jiu-jitsu mastery siding with climate solutions, and why Ayana’s been keen on using the word “transformation.” [51:06] How can we empower ourselves to make a difference against a never-ending number of environmental and societal catastrophes? What’s the right mindset for trying to solve problems that seem way bigger than us? How can we stay energized to fight the good fight without succumbing to apathy — or even just general disappointment in our fellow humans? [54:44] Thoughts on the promising technologies and companies vying to provide solutions to our environmental problems. [1:02:31] No matter who you are or what you do, there’s room for you to be part of the solution. [1:08:04] Could humor be the secret weapon against climate crisis? [1:11:06] How can we get both sides of the political spectrum to cooperate on legislation needed to fight environmental crises? [1:13:24] As a constituent, what’s the outsized cheat code you can use for ensuring your voice matters to your elected congresspeople? [1:19:16] What are the next actions we can take to goad politicians into taking more aggressive steps in stemming environmental crises? [1:25:23] What can someone who has a general aversion to politics do to get involved in changing policy? [1:29:27] How choosing not to eat shrimp is just one example of a small decision that makes a huge difference. [1:32:48] How Ayana came to be cool with her name. [1:40:23] Audience asks and parting thoughts. [1:41:14] * For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, Balaji Srinivasan https://tim.blog/2021/11/15/balaji-srinivasan-2/, Sarah Silverman https://tim.blog/2022/01/12/sarah-silverman/, Dr. Andrew Huberman https://tim.blog/2021/07/06/andrew-huberman/, Dr. Michio Kaku https://tim.blog/2022/01/07/michio-kaku/, and many more. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Peak Tea. That's P-I-Q-U-E. I have had so much tea in my life. I've been to China. I've lived in China, in Japan. I've done tea tours. I drink a lot of tea. And 10 years plus of physical experimentation and tracking has shown me many things. Chief among them, that gut health is critical to just about everything. And you'll see where tea is going to tie into this. It affects immune function, weight management, mental performance, emotional health, you name it. I've been drinking fermented Pu'er tea specifically, pretty much every day for years now. Pu'er tea delivers more polyphenols and probiotics than you can shake a stick at. It's like providing the optimal fertilizer to your microbiome. The problem with good Pu'er is that it's hard to source.

• 0:44Tim Ferriss?

  It's hard to find real Pu'er that hasn't been exposed to pesticides and other nasties, which is super common. That's why Peak's fermented Pu'er tea crystals have become my daily go-to. It's so simple. They have so many benefits that I'm going to get into. And I first learned about them through my friends, Dr. Peter Attia and Kevin Rose. Peak Crystals are cold extracted using only wild harvested leaves from 250-year-old tea trees. I often kickstart my mornings with their Pu'er green tea, their Pu'er black tea, and I alternate between the two. The rich, earthy flavor of the black specifically is amazing. It's very, very, it's like a delicious barnyard. Very peaty, if you like whiskey and stuff like that.

• 1:26Tim Ferriss?

  They triple toxin screen all of their products for heavy metals, pesticides, and toxic mold contaminants commonly found in tea. There's also zero prep or brewing required as the crystals dissolve in seconds. So you can just drop it into your hot tea, or I also make iced tea, and that saves a ton of time and hassle. So Peak is offering 15% off their Pu'er teas for the very first time, exclusive to you, my listeners. This is a sweet offer. Simply visit peaktea.com/tim. That's P-I-Q-U-E-T-E-A.com/tim. This promotion is only available to listeners of this podcast. That's peaktea.com/tim. The discount is automatically applied when you use that URL. You also have a 30-day satisfaction guarantee, so your purchase is risk-free.

• 2:11Tim Ferriss?

  One more time, check it out. Peak Tea, that's P-I-Q-U-E-T-E-A.com/tim.

• 2:21Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time what I would take if I could only take one supplement. I've been asked this for years. The answer is invariably AG1 by Athletic Greens. I view it as all-in-one nutritional insurance. So you can cover your bases. If you're traveling, if you're just busy, if you're not sure if your meals are where they should be, it covers your bases. I've recommended it since The 4-Hour Body, which was, God, eons ago, 2010, and I did not get paid to do so. With approximately 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole-food sourced ingredients, you'll be hard-pressed to find a more nutrient-dense formula on the market. It has a multivitamin, multimineral, greens complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut

• 3:05Tim Ferriss?

  health and immunity formula, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens. You get the idea. It is very, very comprehensive. And I do my best, of course, to focus on nutrient-dense, proper meals. But sometimes you're busy. Sometimes you're traveling. Sometimes you just want to make sure that you're getting what you need. AG1 makes it easy to get a lot of nutrition when whole foods aren't readily available. It's also NSF certified for sport, making it safe for competitive athletes, as what's on the label is in the powder. It's the ultimate all-in-one nutritional supplement bundle in one easy scoop. Right now Athletic Greens is giving my audience a special offer on top of their all-in-one

• 3:46Tim Ferriss?

  formula, which is a free vitamin D supplement and five free travel packs with your first subscription purchase. Many of us are deficient in vitamin D. I've found that true for myself, which is usually produced in our bodies from sun exposure. So adding a vitamin D supplement to your daily routine is a great option for additional immune support. Support your immunity, gut health, and energy by visiting athleticgreens.com/tim. You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/tim.

• 4:22Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half-mile before my hands start to shake.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 4:28Speaker 02

  No, it would seem inappropriate.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 4:44Tim Ferriss?

  Well, hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls, damas y caballeros. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. I'm going to keep this intro short in terms of my normal preamble. My guest today is Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. And Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist, policy expert, writer, and Brooklyn native. She is co-founder of Urban Ocean Lab, a think tank for coastal cities, and co-creator of the Spotify slash Gimlet podcast, How to Save a Planet on Climate Solutions, which I started listening to this past summer every morning as I drove to the gym and I became hooked on it for a bunch of reasons that are not immediately obvious, I suppose.

• 5:27Tim Ferriss?

  She co-edited the bestselling climate anthology, All We Can Save, and co-founded the All We Can Save Project. Recently, she co-authored the Blue New Deal, a roadmap for including the ocean in climate policy. Previously, she was executive director of the Waitt Institute, developed policy at the EPA and NOAA, and taught as an adjunct professor at New York University. Dr. Johnson earned a BA in environmental science and public policy from Harvard University and a PhD in marine biology from Scripps Institution of Oceanography. She publishes widely, including in The New York Times, The Washington Post, and Scientific American. She's on the 2021 Time 100 Next List and was named one of Elle's 27 Women Leading the Charge to Protect Our Environment.

• 6:11Tim Ferriss?

  Outside Magazine called her, quote, "the climate leader we need," end quote. You can find her online at ayanaelizabeth.com, on Twitter, at Ayana Eliza, that's E-L-I-Z-A, on Instagram, at Ayana Eliza as well. Urban Ocean Lab can be found at urbanoceanlab.org. The All We Can Save Project can be found at allwconsave地Earth. We'll link to all the social handles for all of these things in the show notes at tim.blog/podcast. And so now, without further ado, please enjoy my wide-ranging conversation with Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. I learned a lot. I had a great time, laughed even a few times. Hopefully make you laugh a few times. And please enjoy.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  I'm sort of stepping back from doing public stuff for the year. As you know, I sort of like pushed this off for quite some time. So it's gonna be, this will be one of the few things that I do this year. So no pressure, but just fucking nail it on the questions.

• 7:16Tim Ferriss?

  Well, let's just dig into that first. So why aren't you doing public facing stuff? And why did you say yes to this?

• 7:21Speaker 03

  The short answer is I'm writing a book, which means you need, as you know, long stretches of uninterrupted time ideally to actually think about really interesting ways to to frame things. And there's a lot of research involved in in that project. And I'm trying to adhere more and more to this, the philosophy of essentialism, which I'm sure you're familiar with, which is a process. So that's sort of like the the professional reason. I'm like focused on this one big project this year. But the personal reason is, you know, that that sort of cultural perspective that when you have your photograph taken, it steals a part of your soul. You know, sort of traditional understanding in a bunch of different cultures.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  And that's how I've felt after the last two years, having like my name and my face and my voice everywhere. I just feel like I need to gather the pieces back up. And as an introvert, I'm just done with the world. How long can this pandemic last? I would like to go out for a drink at a bar alone and watch other people and like bring a book. But I I've been like weirdly fine being isolated. So, yeah, so that's the other piece of that, just wanting to regather my energy and have time to read and think some new thoughts. You know, you get into this rut of like saying the same things over again if you don't have time to really process new information and figure out what you think about it all.

• 8:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, absolutely. Sounds like a period of soul retrieval, as some might say, gathering the pieces. I actually was just thinking, as you said that, when you mentioned repeating yourself, thinking of a friend of mine named Josh Waitzkin, who, long ago, I was asking for advice around speaking engagements, because it was all new to me. I didn't expect, no one expected the first book to do anything. And suddenly, I was kind of foisted into this speaking world. And he described to me why he stopped. And that was, he was repeating the same things. And it started to become calcified. And he started to become inflexible. He didn't phrase it that way. But he recognized that

• 9:33Speaker 03

  it's fairly synonymous with calcified. So

• 9:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I mean, he didn't have the room or the space to develop his thinking any further on the topics he was speaking on.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  I think a period of hibernation is good for everyone, right?

• 9:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  And I'm trying to think of it that way. So we'll see.

• 9:55Tim Ferriss?

  And so why do you say this to this?

• 9:57Speaker 03

  Because I have a group text, the consensus opinion of which is always correct. And I asked the group text, and they said, I should do this.

• 10:07Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, wow. Thank you, group on the group text.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, we've got like, a finance executive, a journalist, and a Hollywood executive, and me in the group text. So whatever you need, we've got like, the answer.

• 10:22Tim Ferriss?

  So how did this group text, how did this group assemble?

• 10:25Speaker 03

  I don't know if I have permission to tell the story for magical group text.

• 10:32Tim Ferriss?

  To be continued. Let's talk about marine biology. If you're open to it.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  I'm into the ocean.

• 10:39Tim Ferriss?

  You might be. Little known fact, I wanted to be a marine biologist until I was 15 or so. I grew up out near Montauk as a townie, way out by the Hamptons. And my mom took me to meet Frank Lundis at one point, who was the inspiration for the crazy shark hunter in Jaws, Quint. And he had the For the largest great white caught on rotten reel. So my interest started with sharks, quickly then expanded with this textbook called fishes of the world. And I just, I read that all the way through my younger elementary school years. I would spend my recesses reading this book. So

• 11:19Speaker 03

  I just turned around to see if I have it on my bookshelf. I do not. I have the diversity of fishes and coral reef fishes textbooks, but not, not fishes of the world. Sorry.

• 11:31Tim Ferriss?

  Not fishes of the world. So I want to know, and I'm sure you've spoken about this before, but I think for setting the table, it's going to be helpful. How did you first get bitten by the bug? And was there a specific creature that catalyzed that?

• 11:45Speaker 03

  I think a lot of kids who have a positive experience with the ocean at a young age, totally fall for it head over heels. It's amazing. Whatever you like, it's in there doing something weird. Whether it's sharks or for me, it was just the coral reef ecosystem existing to see through the bottom of a glass bottom boat, this whole other thing happening just blew my mind. And I had follow up questions.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  And so it all started for me when I was five on this, I guess that's the magic age when you're supposed to choose what you want to be when you grow up. And it's a really common dream job marine biologist. And I guess I'm just like super, super stubborn. And I'm like, no, really.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  But my parents took me to Key West, Florida. It was, I think, one of two family vacations we ever went on. We were, you know, a working class family. We weren't jetting around. And I learned to swim that summer and I went on a glass bottom boat ride and I saw coral reef for the first time and all these like crazy colorful fish and just this whole other thing going on. And then we went to the aquarium and you know, they have these like touch tanks. And they had starfish and sea urchins and I got to hold a sea urchin in the palm of my hand. And they have tube feet on the bottom. They have like hundreds of tubes coming out of the bottom of this like hard shelled spiny thing. And that's how they crawl across the palm of your hand

• 13:16Speaker 03

  or a reef. And I was just completely blown away by this like purple spine waving.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Foot suction scenario is happening, these like aliens that actually live on our planet. And then looking in a tank and seeing an electric eel do its thing. I was like, what is this called? This is my job now.

• 13:40Tim Ferriss?

  When did you realize that you had what it took to make it a career path? Or that you could find the support to make it a career path?

• 13:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:53Tim Ferriss?

  Does that make sense? Because I had the dream, but I just, I had no exposure, maybe not enough stubbornness. And then I ended up shifting to other things.

• 14:00Speaker 03

  I think you probably have enough stubbornness. I don't think that was the thing.

• 14:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, maybe not enough directional stubbornness.

• 14:07Speaker 03

  Like so many people, I had a lot of dream jobs. That was just the first one. After that, I was learning about the civil rights movement when I was, you know, around 10 years old. And I decided I wanted to be very specific dream job. The lawyer that got the next Martin Luther King out of jail. You don't die, but you're super helpful. And I was like, that's, that's the thing I can do, right? I can defend the good guys. And then I went backpacking for the first time and was like, oh, park ranger is a job? Like you could get paid to hang out in the forest? Sign me up, obviously best job. And then in college, I was majoring in environmental science and public policy.

• 14:48Speaker 03

  And I thought, oh, maybe I will do environmental policy or environmental law. And I took environmental law as an undergrad in the law school. And I studied abroad in the Caribbean. I sort of nailed this. I studied abroad in Turks and Caicos.

• 15:08Tim Ferriss?

  Tough job, but somebody's gonna do it.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  It's a super tough job. I mean, I had to memorize the Latin name of every coral reef species, right? We had tests underwater with like a slate. We were to write down everything they point at. And actually, one of the things they pointed at, I was like, I'm sorry, what are you pointing at? And they're like, over there. And I was like, I don't see it. It's like just in the, in the water. I surface and I'm like, I want to get a good grade on this test, right? Like I've studied so hard, I can't tell what you're pointing at. And he's like, the thing that I'm not going to swim closer to because it might not be a good idea. And it was a reef shark. So like a reef shark on my quiz that day. But we were studying like not just the ecology, but also the economics of fisheries

• 15:52Speaker 03

  management and the policy piece. And I realized that it was this really cool puzzle that ocean conservation is actually not just science, it's also economics and policy and culture and communications and protection. It is the park ranger and the lawyer and all that in one. I basically figured out how to have all my dream jobs at once. So I didn't say that I necessarily had a moment when I realized that I could be a marine biologist. I had a moment when I realized I could get a PhD in marine biology and then never do any research again, but know enough to be able to understand the papers, to be able to translate

• 16:37Speaker 03

  that science into policymaking and to be able to be hopefully useful as a communicator on these topics as well.

• 16:46Tim Ferriss?

  So you're just nothing but nut. You figured out the Voltron of career paths. He's like Luke Skywalker, like shooting that Death Star at the very end.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  It's like, well, I choose. And it's weird. People ask me, what do you do? And I'm like, I don't know. I like write things and I read things and I talk about stuff and try to get laws changed and whatever the thing is. So to me, it's about projects and collaborations as opposed to research per se, which is a bummer because hanging out underwater is pretty cool, too.

• 17:19Tim Ferriss?

  I have to ask, just because I've never come across anyone quite like you, and I've interviewed a lot of people. And I will say, just also as some backstory, this past summer was the first time I came across your name. And I came across your name because I like a lot of what Alex does and I was on Spotify looking at new podcasts and I saw How to Save a Planet and began listening and very quickly it became my morning routine where I was going through the back catalog and I would go to the gym and I would listen to these episodes.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  And you were just lifting such heavy weights because you were like, we gotta save the planet.

• 18:00Tim Ferriss?

  I was, I was getting huge, jacked, ripped, tanned even, which doesn't, I can't even explain it.

• 18:07Speaker 03

  Your hair was growing back, the whole thing.

• 18:09Tim Ferriss?

  My hair was growing back, all the good things were happening. It actually had the opposite effect in the sense that I became so engrossed with certain sections, I was like, I can't exercise while I'm listening to this, I actually have to be driving or something else that is a little less, I was gonna say less dangerous, all this statistically is probably not true, but the.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  I do have trouble counting reps if anything else is going on, I understand.

• 18:31Tim Ferriss?

  You know, we can't be good at everything.

• 18:34Speaker 03

  Can't multitask.

• 18:35Tim Ferriss?

  And my question for you, which had a very strange segue to get here, but what superpowers, if you had to answer this, what superpowers did you receive, absorb from your parents?

• 18:48Speaker 03

  Whoo.

• 18:49Tim Ferriss?

  And from which parent?

• 18:51Speaker 03

  Okay, I should preface this by saying, my parents are incredibly cool. Like, I will never be as cool as my parents and I think because I sort of acknowledged that very early on, I was like, okay, this is just great. My mom grew up on Long Island in a big Irish Catholic family, both of my grandparents on that side are from Newfoundland and she became a high school English teacher. She taught, starting in the sixties, in the South Bronx, in Bed-Stuy, in like, super rough neighborhoods, just really wanted to make sure those kids got a good education and like, didn't manage to get through high school without really learning to read and reading a bunch of books and processing that.

• 19:34Speaker 03

  And she and my dad met because their best friends were dating, this is sort of like the long version of the story. My dad had just moved to New York from Jamaica, he grew up in Kingston and.

• 19:48Tim Ferriss?

  I like the long versions, by the way, we have nothing but time.

• 19:53Speaker 03

  And so I have this like very interesting sort of like Irish Jamaican mashup going. And those two cultures are actually quite similar as I've learned more about Irish history in the last few years. Just like, you know, the way that the British screwed over the Irish and the way that that shapes your culture. And the way that that influences the music and the dance and the way you find joy amidst it all, right? That's sort of like gets passed down in the irreverence and sarcasm. And so

• 20:24Tim Ferriss?

  That's, that's where the sass comes from.

• 20:26Speaker 03

  I definitely think I'm like more sassy than my parents, definitely more chatty. They're both sort of sparse with conversation. So my mom, actually, after I finished college, she was like, when did you learn to like, tell a story and make jokes? Cause we definitely didn't teach you that. We had this sort of quiet and not so lengthy dinners. I grew up as an only child. So from my dad, who passed away a few years ago, super artistic, was an architect and a potter.

• 21:05Speaker 03

  And he started what may have been the first black owned architecture firm in New York City. And dealt with just like the insane racism of that very insular field. And so they're sort of like, uh, I'm just going to do this. I know this will be hard, but like this is the thing and I'm just gonna figure it out. So him with his partners sort of made that work. And I'm sort of embarrassed to say, for many years, I thought he was a failure. I didn't understand because he wasn't doing a bunch of cool buildings he could show me. He wasn't making any money really at all. And so I didn't think it worked. And then I ended up hanging out with a bunch of architects a few years ago.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  And I mentioned, oh, my dad was an architect and they asked me about him. And they were like, oh, we, we know of that firm. He opened doors for so many other black architects. He was the first, him and his partners were the first. And to be the first is not always glamorous and people don't usually remember you in most contexts, right? And so now I just, I was always proud of the meticulous nature of the way that he approached things. He was incredibly proud about everything from his building plans to his handwriting, to his fashion sense, and really trained my eye as far as design and style, my appreciation

• 22:31Speaker 03

  for art. But that, that sense that the thing that he instilled in me was that I had to give back. This was the mantra, to whom much is given, much is expected, kind of thing. And also just the like, you're gonna have to work twice as hard to get half as much because you're not white. And I was like, damn it. Those are more like the lessons than the superpowers perhaps, but I guess, you know, on the superpower side, it's just caring about how things look. I think within the climate and environmental movement, people don't put enough, often, energy into design, right? For so many years, it was just like

• 23:12Speaker 03

  this sort of like, unappealing, crunchy mess. You weren't like, oh, that's where all the cool kids are. And so I do think about aesthetics in my work in a very deep way because of my dad, which is not a superpower in other fields, but might be more so here. And my mom is just a super deep researcher. So she ended up developing all these new curriculums for her classes to include writers, authors of color, Black writers, Asian writers, Native American writers. And so she was reading all these books, she was buying them all with her own money, literally taking them in shopping carts to school at the beginning and end

• 23:57Speaker 03

  of every semester, handing them out to the kids. And just finding ways to help people have a greater understanding of the world, using literature as a way to teach history, as a way to teach cultural competency, as a way to teach about morality and justice. And so she's just, you know, a lifelong consummate teacher. And I think there's, there's a superpower in the curiosity that she still, every day wakes up and wants to understand more, in more nuance, how the world works. I don't think I have it as strongly as she does. I'm like, oh my God, the deluge of information. Like, it's too much. I would like to know less. Sometimes, but I think I would say her sort of endurance,

• 24:40Speaker 03

  intellectual endurance and her real desire to have other people understand the important things that she learns. I had no idea what I was gonna say. I'm not sure if I had more time to think about it, if I would say the same thing.

• 24:55Tim Ferriss?

  Well, that's uh, that's kind of the goal with, with the questions that you haven't heard before. Yeah. Is that you don't have a whole lot of time. Where did you get the storytelling? If you had to guess, certainly, I mean, having spent a decent amount of time in Ireland. I mean, there's a, an incredible tradition. Maybe there is something in your code, so to speak, but is there another explanation or another source or inspiration?

• 25:17Speaker 03

  There is, and it's that two of my cousins on my mom's side started an improv comedy group when they were like maybe in college or so in LA. And they were like my idols. Stephen Connell, who's now a professional poet, actor, writer, and Joseph Pizzani. And they would just put on these like incredible shows in the driveway at our family's annual clambake and call up volunteers and stuff and just watching the way their minds worked in connecting the dots and making everyone laugh and making it participatory. And no one ever got made fun of in a cruel way, ever. It was just, we're all in this sort of absurdity creation together.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  And that was all our dinner table conversations were like telling crazy, to listen to them tell crazy stories. So I never aspired to be an actor. And as you know, I'm not really interested in being on video even at all. So I think for me, it was just, I really looked up to them and I was just so impressed with what they could pull out of thin air and how they could turn something that seemed so mundane into the most delightful and fascinating tale.

• 26:32Tim Ferriss?

  Let's go back to scuba diving for a second. And the reason I bring it up is

• 26:38Speaker 03

  Because breathing underwater is cool.

• 26:41Tim Ferriss?

  Because breathing underwater is fucking rad. Point one, but point two is that I've seen transformations in people. Where they they have this binary switch of sorts where they go from being vaguely interested in marine biology or the ocean. And they have their first experience with either snorkeling or scuba in a vibrant environment. And something just switches and the way they relate to life underwater and the ocean itself changes. My question for you is

• 27:18Speaker 03

  Are you speaking from experience?

• 27:20Tim Ferriss?

  I am speaking from experience. So scuba diving and snorkeling are two of my favorite experiences and activities in the world. And when people talk about colonizing Mars or they talk about psychedelic experiences and they're like, oh, probably never going to have either of those. I just say, go snorkeling or scuba diving. Do not trample all the coral.

• 27:44Speaker 03

  Don't touch anything.

• 27:45Tim Ferriss?

  Don't touch anything. But for me, it was, these were life changing experiences. And I'm wondering if there is any equivalent you have seen within discussions around climate or the subject matter of climate. Like, is there some experience that people can have that you have seen or heard of that flips a switch? And there's a before and an after.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  Not in a positive way like that. What you've described is this like awe and delight that you can experience when you're immersed in this underwater world. The perspective that you gain when you realize that there's a whole bunch of stuff that is not about humans and we're not even supposed to be there. And the way that those marine ecosystems, you can like see the food web in front of you, you can see who's eating who and like how it's all connected in this really dynamic and immediate way. And the thing with climate is it's this sort of

• 28:53Speaker 03

  Slow-moving disaster, in a sense. I mean, it's moving much more quickly than people had ever thought that it would. Every time we read a new report, it's like, oh, it's actually worse and faster. You know, it's never like, no big deal, just kidding. And so the thing that I've seen flip the switch is natural disasters, which is a term I don't use anymore. I call them like disasters or extreme weather events or something like that because they're not natural anymore. This is not nature as it was intended to be. And so people who experience wildfires or hurricanes and other sorts of disasters, I think, often have this kind of like,

• 29:38Speaker 03

  oh, fuck, I'm not safe from this. You're not safe from this. For so long, it felt like the media was portraying climate change, something that would affect like poor, probably brown people on some faraway island. And so Americans were, if you read the news, sort of insulated from thinking that this would ever really come home to roost for us. And in the last few years, I think it's become clear that we're not safe. And wealthier people are actively working on ways to protect themselves and their families from the impacts of the climate crisis. But even they will not be able to hide from that

• 30:22Speaker 03

  because they still need to get their food from somewhere and their medical treatment from somewhere. And we are all connected. So, I don't know, I wish I had a more fun answer. But I think the only equivalent that I can think of is, you know, that's more similar to experiencing marine life, is the understanding that species are going extinct because of this too. These magnificent things that have been on the planet for Millennia have no place to live anymore, right? If you think about temperature range and a mountain, and you think, okay, well, they can't sustain temperatures over a certain amount. So species are moving up and up and up the mountain.

• 31:07Speaker 03

  But when you get to the top of the mountain, there's no foliage. There's no, you're above the tree line. The trees haven't grown there yet. There's no soil there, and there's nowhere else to go. There's no further up to go to get away from the heat. And the same with coral reefs. Corals can't get up and move, and there's nowhere, nowhere to go. And so we have fish who are literally migrating towards the poles to try to stay cool. And all of these changes are so dramatic and happening right before our eyes in our lifetimes. This is not something that's playing out over generations. This is something that's playing out over years. It's really shocking.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  And so for people who have a specific love of nature over time, whether it's as a bird watcher and noticing what birds are missing, or that the birds are coming at very different times, or if you're a gardener and realize that the first frost comes much later and springtime is changing to change when you plant things. For people who have a more day-to-day intimate relationship with any sort of species or ecosystem, I think there's sort of a persistent low-level heartache about going through the world and seeing the things that you care about be so threatened,

• 32:31Speaker 03

  and these things start to crumble.

• 32:34Tim Ferriss?

  What I would love to do is a thought exercise.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 32:39Tim Ferriss?

  Is to play with the idea of...

• 32:43Tim Ferriss?

  Certain experiences were struggling to find the right word.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  I totally failed to tell you why my parents are the coolest. And my parents were like the proto hipsters. So my dad was living in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, when it was like super rough. And he was a student at Pratt, that's like art architecture school. And my mom was living in Harlem and they would ride their bicycles and like meet in Central Park and like hang out and they would like play the flute together and like make homemade pickles. And they had like a whole vegetable garden in the back of the brownstone they they got in Fort Greene back when brownstones were like 30 something thousand dollars. And like they had like the whole scenario sorted. And then I came along and was just like, sort of, I ruined everything. I ruined all their activities.

• 33:30Tim Ferriss?

  Wow, they were hipsters before it was cool.

• 33:34Speaker 03

  I know. It was very cool. So we had like, you know, they were playing tennis while wearing white bell bottoms. I mean, like, the whole thing was impeccable. And here I am just trying to, you know, not let them down.

• 33:50Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Helium 10. Helium 10, one zero, is an all-in-one software suite designed to help entrepreneurs launch, manage, and scale profitable e-commerce businesses on Amazon as well as on Walmart.com. So whether you're an entrepreneur who wants to start a business on your own terms, or you want to scale your existing e-commerce operations, Helium 10 can help. They process more than 2 billion data points daily. That's a lot of data. Have a robust 450-plus million ASIN database and provide at-a-glance analytics like seasonal trends for products, profit estimates, and more.

• 34:31Tim Ferriss?

  I did a bunch of vetting on these guys with help from all of you, actually, looking for recommendations, how much you would recommend them. And I've been very impressed with the feedback I've seen on social media from their community of 1 million-plus users. So they cleared the hurdle and here they are. You'll be able to tap into Amazon's existing customer base, product demand, and Shipping infrastructure to launch your business. And just as a reminder, Amazon will handle all shipping and returns for you. Join more than 1 million Helium 10 users worldwide by signing up for a free account at helium10.com/tim.

• 35:06Tim Ferriss?

  That is helium10.com/tim. Sign up for free at H E L I U M one zero dot com slash tim.

• 35:20Tim Ferriss?

  Let's come back to your last answer prior to the pickles and the flute.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  The flute, I wanna, I wanna jump on the flute. A jar of pottery that my father made himself.

• 35:33Tim Ferriss?

  Oh my God, just gets better and better.

• 35:35Speaker 03

  We have a whole pottery studio and a kiln and a wheel in the basement of our house. Yeah, and a darkroom, the whole shebang.

• 35:43Tim Ferriss?

  So if we look at for a second, not as fun to discuss, but for lack of a better way to describe it, say,

• 35:52Tim Ferriss?

  scaring people into action.

• 35:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:54Tim Ferriss?

  Versus or in combination with inspiring people into action. I'd love to explore this a little bit. Because I think both obviously can work. But if I think about, for instance, some of the things that I've been involved with, whether that's really interested in trophic cascade, both as it relates to, say, sharks.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Didn't see that one coming.

• 36:15Tim Ferriss?

  And also, yeah, gray wolves. So I've been involved with a number of predator human.

• 36:21Speaker 03

  Do you want to define trophic cascade for your listeners?

• 36:23Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I think you're gonna be better at doing that. So, so we'll get there, we'll get there in a second. We'll get there in a second and I want you to do it because I will screw it up. And actually, one of the, oh God, I'm gonna take us all over the place. Okay, before we get any further, well, actually, let me just finish my, my little quick piece. This is to say that the shark component in my introduction to trophic cascade came about because of a shark tagging trip that I went on. And then on the, on the wolf side, there was a similar experience that, as you mentioned, can and does happen to people, made me very interested in.

• 37:03Tim Ferriss?

  Other examples of terrific cascade and also the sort of plight of animals that become political targets or political symbols. And they were positive experiences, certainly with a lot of terrible stories in the ether around both of them. But ultimately, it was kind of awe and wonder that that brought me into both of those. And similarly, I've seen, so I've been very heavily involved with science related to psychedelic compounds at Johns Hopkins and other places. And what has happened in the last handful of years are many people I never would

• 37:42Tim Ferriss?

  have suspected had become involved with conservation in South America through great nonprofits like the Amazon Conservation Team and others. But it began with firsthand experience with, say, some of these displaced and indigenous groups in South America. Do you think there are other ways to introduce people to the ecosystem that includes climate change to make them beneficial, proactive participants that include sort of awe and wonder in ways that I haven't described? It's a very long-winded question, but I've never asked it before.

• 38:22Speaker 03

  I'm with you. I'm with you. I think like fear and anxiety and really unpleasant news is not terribly motivating for most people. It is for some. For me, I actually don't that often think about the details of how bad the scientific projections are and exactly what's happening to ecosystems. I focus almost entirely on solutions. My perspective is like, it's as bad as we thought and actually worse. It's all happening fast. And then I immediately pivot to what are we going to do about it? Like, what can I do to help? And I think the thing that's really interesting to me and actually super inspiring is that

• 39:04Speaker 03

  we basically have all the solutions we need. We know how to transition to 100% renewable energy. We know how to farm in regenerative ways that restore carbon to the soil instead of emitting it, right? We know how to transform public transit in cities. We know how to compost food. We already know how to do all this stuff. We know how to make buildings more efficient. We know how to improve manufacturing processes. It's just a matter of how fast we're going to do this and whether people will get out of their own ways and be able to forsake the self-interest, whether that's money or power, and just get this shit done. And to me, that is the thing that gets me out of bed in the morning, like, how are

• 39:48Speaker 03

  we going to get this shit done? Because we can, like, because it is a possibility, because we have this wide range of possible futures still available to us, and I want to be part of making sure we get the best one. And so the things that I get excited about, that I think many people could and will get more excited about as media starts to shift from problem to solutions, is that coastal ecosystems, like wetlands and mangroves, can absorb five times more carbon than a forest on land. Let's protect and restore those. Let's think about farming, oysters and seaweed in the ocean that absorbs a lot of carbon and is like a super low footprint source of food. I don't know, you probably have a take on whether those are good things, Steve, but

• 40:33Speaker 03

  they're super sustainable, I'll tell you that part. Many Americans are iodine deficient.

• 40:38Tim Ferriss?

  We're gonna come back to that. We're coming back to that.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  And, you know, some people get really excited about the technology, figuring out how we're gonna go from these like clunky solar panels to solar panels that are just like regular roof tiles, or how we're going to sort of shift our food systems to accommodate for these things. What is the role of technology? What is the role of culture? What is the role of politics? Some people just like love getting out of bed in the morning and harassing politicians into doing better on climate policy. And like, I'm glad that that float your boat. And so I think... It can be very exciting to consider how to put your interests, passions, superpowers to work towards specific climate solutions. And we don't have to do all of them. Like, everyone just has to do something. And the solutions are really cool. Like offshore

• 41:24Speaker 03

  wind turbines powering the 40% of Americans who live in coastal counties. That would be great. Let's get it going. And so I guess if you think only about the problem, then of course, it's a bummer. And I sort of fell into that trap when you asked me the question in its previous framing. But when you think about the solutions, there's like no limit to the sources of inspiration and places to look and things you'd be like, ooh, I want that. I want to help with that. I want to support that. I want to like fund that. I want to innovate the 2.0 version of that.

• 42:01Tim Ferriss?

  All right, we're gonna play another game, a guessing game.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 42:06Tim Ferriss?

  So I mentioned that I listened to many, many episodes.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  Which was your favorite?

• 42:10Tim Ferriss?

  Of...

• 42:11Speaker 03

  Which was your least favorite?

• 42:12Tim Ferriss?

  We're going to get to both of those.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 42:15Tim Ferriss?

  So I have shared a few episodes with my audience.

• 42:20Speaker 03

  That's nice.

• 42:21Tim Ferriss?

  Through my newsletter, which goes out to a few million people. And...

• 42:24Speaker 03

  No big deal.

• 42:25Tim Ferriss?

  No big deal. But the, it's, just as a side note, I mean, it's the, if you want to push to direct action, having direct contact with your subscribers is very helpful to anyone out there who's determining where they should focus on growing an audience. The question I have for you is which episodes do you think I chose? Can you, can you possibly guess?

• 42:49Speaker 03

  For what? Best and worst, favorite and least?

• 42:51Tim Ferriss?

  Let's go with the ones I shared. So I wouldn't have shared...

• 42:53Speaker 03

  Oh, which did you share? Okay.

• 42:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yep.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  I kind of know your vibe, but like, not really. Um...

• 43:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yep. I'll give you just a helpful tip, is that my audience spans the political spectrum. So I...

• 43:10Speaker 03

  Well, you just sort of gave it away.

• 43:14Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, did I? Well, tell me, tell me.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  Well, what I was gonna say before you gave me this hint was the ones on Kelp are actually really interesting because they have this like sort of like health and wellness and food angle and like super creative entrepreneurship piece. So I thought you might have been, and they're kind of fun too. So I thought you might have shared that, but it's a two parter. And so that's like a little less shareable.

• 43:38Tim Ferriss?

  That is an excellent guess and you are correct.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 43:41Tim Ferriss?

  And this character, so what is this guy's name? Because the story about him.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  The fisherman turned ocean farmer.

• 43:49Tim Ferriss?

  Living in a tent on the side of a golf course, selling LSD to his fellow students. This is the guy, right?

• 43:55Speaker 03

  This is the dude.

• 43:56Tim Ferriss?

  That's the story?

• 43:56Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 43:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So.

• 43:58Speaker 03

  And apparently just getting laid, left, right and center.

• 44:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, I know. So, so the, the entire thing as a story was, and from the perspective of storytelling was so riveting that even if someone said, I don't buy climate change, it's still something they would listen to.

• 44:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:20Tim Ferriss?

  Right? And that's why I chose, that was the first episode that I shared, actually. And I just thought from a human interest perspective, from a solutions perspective, from a capitalist perspective, even though that's a dirty word in some circles, from an enlightened self-interest perspective, maybe we could say, there are so many entry points on this episode and it's funny also, right?

• 44:45Speaker 03

  It's totally funny.

• 44:46Tim Ferriss?

  It's the humor and that's something I really appreciated about, I still do, but appreciated about how you engaged with the podcast and part of why I kept listening to it was using humor when possible.

• 44:59Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 45:00Tim Ferriss?

  Because this shit can be so dark.

• 45:01Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 45:02Tim Ferriss?

  But that, that is the first episode that I shared.

• 45:04Speaker 03

  I'm so glad.

• 45:05Tim Ferriss?

  That's a very good guess.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  I have a crush on seaweed and Bren Smith, the fisherman who's now an ocean farmer, is a wonderful human being and I love his organization, Green Wave, which is training people to become ocean farmers and, you know, doing all this great work. It, I'm so enamored with the whole thing that I joined their board and I'm like saying no to everyone constantly. So that's how big a fan I am of that work. So it was really great to have him on the show.

• 45:32Tim Ferriss?

  Do you recall the name of the episode or how people would find that episode? Because it's just an incredible story with very colorful characters involved.

• 45:45Tim Ferriss?

  What should people Google if they want to find that?

• 45:47Speaker 03

  Kelp farming for the climate.

• 45:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yep. So kelp farming for the climate. What I did in my newsletter is I renamed the link.

• 45:57Speaker 03

  Ah, so that it wasn't for the climate?

• 46:01Tim Ferriss?

  That's right.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 46:02Tim Ferriss?

  Because the episode will get there.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:04Tim Ferriss?

  But I didn't want to.

• 46:06Speaker 03

  What'd you name it?

• 46:07Tim Ferriss?

  Didn't want. That is a great question. Let me see if I can find it. This might take a minute.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  So the other episode, I thought, once you gave me that hot tip, was that you chose the one where we discussed how to have conversations about climate change with climate science deniers? The trying to talk to family about climate change? Question mark, here's how episode.

• 46:35Tim Ferriss?

  I actually, I did not share that one, but I've not heard that episode either.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  It's a.

• 46:41Tim Ferriss?

  That would actually be.

• 46:42Speaker 03

  It's a former Republican congressman and his son talking about how their perspectives on climate have evolved and how the son and his sisters played a big role in shifting his father's perspective and how how they're working on with Republicans on trying to get climate policy and sort of awareness passed because it doesn't need to be a partisan issue. Like, we can all care about maintaining a habitable planet.

• 47:08Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm. So here's, here's what I put in my newsletter. So the newsletter is called Five Bullet Friday and it's just the five kind of coolest, most interesting things I've come across or experimented with that week. And this is podcast episode I'm listening to. From cod fishing to kelp farming. I put in parentheses, my title and then with Dr. Iain Lewis with Johnson and Alex Bloomberg. And here's what I wrote. For many reasons, I'm considering investing heavily in aquaculture. So I've been doing a deep dive, pun intended, into the subject. And then we can deconstruct why I wrote it this way. This episode is incredibly smart, incredibly helpful, and incredibly hilarious. I didn't expect the characters involved and kept bursting out laughing at the gym this morning. I looked like a crazy person, but kept on listening. Whether you want an investing advantage or simply great stories, this episode is really worth the time.

• 47:53Tim Ferriss?

  And if you'd like to learn storytelling and podcasting tips from one of the co-hosts, Socks Bloomberg, you can find my 2015 interview with him here. So the reason I positioned it this way, and the reason I renamed the title, is because I wanted as, as large a funnel at the top of people who would click play on this episode as possible.

• 48:09Speaker 03

  Sure, that's great.

• 48:10Tim Ferriss?

  That's why I positioned it the way that I did.

• 48:12Speaker 03

  I'm glad you like our corny jokes.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  I have to say, those were mostly unscripted. And I'm very surprised that so many of them made the cut.

• 48:27Tim Ferriss?

  I was astonished that, what was, what was the Kell Farmer's name again?

• 48:31Speaker 03

  Bren Smith. Bren with no T. B R E N.

• 48:35Tim Ferriss?

  B R E N. Okay. So I was surprised you kept in everything he said related to the tent, which you alluded to, because he was like, yeah, if you really want to get a lot of ass in college, turns out, living in a tent by the golf course is the way to do it.

• 48:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:48Tim Ferriss?

  It was, it was just, it was fantastic.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  I could not have predicted that that would be the way, but you know.

• 48:53Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. What do you think my, what do you think my least favorite episodes might be?

• 49:02Speaker 03

  Oh, plural. You went plural on least favorite. Cute.

• 49:05Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I wanna, I wanna, but I want to, I'm gonna provide a lens though, and this is not gonna be surprising. Not least favorite to personally listen to, but those, those least likely to share.

• 49:18Speaker 03

  Least likely to share. Um, Black Lives Matter and the climate?

• 49:24Speaker 03

  You have to really double retitle that one.

• 49:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you're close, but it's it's not exactly that. It's any episode that had a mixture of many causes or multiple causes. Not because they don't matter, not because they aren't important, but because I felt like it was, if I'm trying to use a Trojan horse approach to get the funnel to be as large as possible for clicking, I didn't want, in the beginning, later, things can can be different, but I I wanted to provide sort of single points of action, if that makes any sense.

• 50:01Speaker 03

  So not the one titled, "Environmentalist Drag Queen Patty Gonya Says the Outdoors Is For Everyone."

• 50:07Tim Ferriss?

  That's right.

• 50:08Speaker 03

  Not the one that says, "We Can't Solve the Climate Crisis Without Gender Equality Will Prove It To You."

• 50:14Tim Ferriss?

  So if there were episodes that laid out in the call to action, sort of a clear sequence, or in the narrative, a clear sequence, then I would be open to sharing it if it felt to me like, and hopefully, this doesn't come across terribly, but if I felt like, for the listener who is not, who feels like the climate, acting in some proactive way with respect to climate change is futile. If that's how they're coming into it, like, I don't think there's really anything I can do, if they're already demoralized about that, if I felt like an episode might kind of look like the back of a car in, like, Berkeley, California with multiple

• 50:55Tim Ferriss?

  bumper stickers that they wouldn't know how to put in any order or make any sense of it, therefore, they would just opt out, then I would be less inclined to share it. Doesn't mean they're not important episodes.

• 51:05Speaker 03

  Which was your favorite episode that you didn't share because of that reason?

• 51:11Tim Ferriss?

  I'll give an example of one I liked, but then also had some issues with. I thought the episode related to, and you're gonna have more of the specifics here, but the, I guess you would say, activists within Amazon?

• 51:24Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 51:26Tim Ferriss?

  I thought that was a really interesting episode that had a couple of points in the dialogue that veered into a number of different areas that made it hard for me to be totally sympathetic to some of the protagonists in the episode. But I did find that very interesting from the perspective of the incredible leverage you can get if you are able to successfully catalyze action within enormous companies, especially those with large carbon footprints. Side note, did British Petroleum actually create the term carbon footprint?

• 52:07Speaker 03

  They definitely popularized it and like trade upon it and tried to make it seem like this whole thing is our fault. I'm not sure if they actually coined the term.

• 52:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, but shifting, creating online calculators to sort of shift the onus to the individual.

• 52:23Speaker 03

  It's brilliant and like disgusting.

• 52:27Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, it really is.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I mean, it's kind of the like the best of the worst sort of words that work. Frank Lunt's type of, you know, death tax.

• 52:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, we need more of these like linguistic jujitsu happening on the side of climate solutions, please.

• 52:45Tim Ferriss?

  And, you know, I noticed that with some of your sponsors on the show also. And I was like, oh, that's quite clever. I think it was.

• 52:52Speaker 03

  I don't even know who they were. I don't.

• 52:55Tim Ferriss?

  Well, there was, there was, I want to say, and again, God, this is.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  We're really going down a rabbit hole here.

• 53:01Tim Ferriss?

  Faulty memory at work, but I think it was, I want to say fidelity or some investment firm that offered the ability to invest in, for lack of a better term, climate friendly or climate solution focused.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  Have not vetted, do not personally endorse.

• 53:19Tim Ferriss?

  No, right. But I noticed, I noticed that instead of saying, they said the green transition. And I was like, that's an interesting way of phrasing it. That's a very interesting way of phrasing it because the language matters.

• 53:30Speaker 03

  The word I've been using a lot is transformation. Because that's, I feel like, the most embraceable word I can think of that indicates just how much things have to change. We're not talking about tweaking little things, tweaks in policy, tweaks in behavior, tweaks in corporate practices. We're talking about transforming our energy system, food system, transportation, manufacturing buildings, all of it. And when you think about the climate challenge in those terms, there is a place for everybody in working towards these solutions, in figuring out this green transition or this transformation.

• 54:15Speaker 03

  Because no matter where you work, your company needs to be a part of this. No matter where you live, your community needs to be prepared for this. No matter what skills you have, believe me, they are necessary. And so I think of that as, that the word transformation both is appropriate to the scale of what needs to happen, but also a bit more welcoming because it implies that we can still sort of shape the future that we want, which is true.

• 54:42Tim Ferriss?

  Let's talk about transformation and large-scale, broad-spectrum transformation because the, the scale of that, I can imagine intimidating a lot of people and them saying, you know what, I'm going to be a drop in the ocean, pun intended, and it's just not going to, what am I going to do? Really? Like, am I going to replace my straws and make a difference? I don't think I can do anything. For those people, and I know you've spoken about this and you've spoken about it in the podcast as well, but how do you suggest people think about where they might fit in? And the Venn diagram comes to mind.

• 55:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:18Tim Ferriss?

  But what do you recommend to people who are saying, you know, I would love to do something, realistically, I don't, I can't make this my full-time job, like, what would you have me do? How would you suggest I even think about it?

• 55:27Speaker 03

  I would say, don't think about it as a side thing. Think about how this is part of your life already. And so I think often people think, I want to help on some environment thing. They're like, do I go volunteer for a nonprofit? Do I quit my job and like, go do this entirely other thing? When the answer is often, change your company.

• 55:49Speaker 03

  Change your sports team, change your church. Figure out how to way to put, how the things are already a part of, where you already have influence and leverage. Change those things. As opposed to trying to like, I don't know, do some entirely new thing that you have no network in or, or power in. This idea of power mapping, of figuring out where you actually have the ability to make change, I think is a really important step. And this sort of, I think, in many ways, the environmental movement had like, a real problem initially because it was asking everyone to do the same thing. We still fall into this trap, right? Like, everybody, spread the word, everybody march, everyone donate, everyone vote. And we should do all those things, of course.

• 56:33Speaker 03

  But if you and I were both doing the same exact thing to contribute to climate solutions, that would be a total waste of both of our time, right? Like, we should do the things we're good at. And so, the way that I think about it, and we sort of went into this sort of debate between individual behavior change, where it does all add up. If we all change our diets, if we all change our transportation, if we all change our electricity, that does add up to something. But the recounting on individuals to change things is, that need whole systems to change. I don't get to choose where my electricity comes from when I turn on my lights in this apartment building, per se. So we need to make the system, make other things possible in terms of energy, for example.

• 57:16Speaker 03

  So, we did this whole episode called, "Is Your Carbon Footprint BS", talking about this debate between-

• 57:24Tim Ferriss?

  That was a good episode.

• 57:25Speaker 03

  I hoped you would like that one. This debate between two siblings, where one was like, individual actions matter, and the other one's like, no, only this big level systems change stuff matters. And the answer that we landed on is that your individual actions matter in so much as they contribute to larger scale change. And the way that I think about everyone finding their sort of like bespoke role in climate solutions is this Venn diagram of just three circles. And the first one is, what are you good at? What superpowers, what skills are you bringing to the table? Your network, your resources, what you got? And then the next circle would be, what part of this transformation do you want to work on, right?

• 58:10Speaker 03

  Are you really excited about- Seaweed, are you really excited about offshore wind farms? Are you really excited about bike lanes or composting? Or political change or cultural shifts? Like whatever is the piece? Like, there are so many pieces to this puzzle. And no one can do them all. So just which ones are you picking? And then the third circle is what brings you joy? So what gets you out of bed in the morning? Because so often people assume that this work has to be miserable, some sort of slog. But this is the work of our lifetimes. And it's like this whole transformation. So if we could pick between doing anything and transforming any sector, like pick something that you can keep working on for a while,

• 58:53Speaker 03

  that will energize you and you'll want to bring other people in. And so finding our way to the epicenter, each of us, of our personal version of that Venn diagram, can be really powerful. So, for example, I, as a marine biologist, and a kid who grew up in Brooklyn, a coastal city, and a policy nerd who loves thinking about design, I co-founded a think tank for the future of coastal cities. Because I was like, this is what I'm good about and know about and care about and excited about. So let's just mash all that up together and see like how we can help coastal cities change their policies in order to adapt to the climate changes that are coming.

• 59:36Speaker 03

  And my friend Boris was like, well, I'm, should we just go to more marches? I brought him to a climate protest and he was like, do we just do this again next week? It's like, no, go change your company. Like, you're an executive at Betterment. And nine months later, he launched their sustainable investing fund, which is much more powerful. I don't care if he ever goes to a march again. Because that doesn't matter. Because he has this like much greater ability to make change where he already is. So what are you gonna do, Tim? Tell us about your Venn diagram.

• 1:00:08Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I will answer that. The energize you part, I just want to underscore because I think it is so, so, so, so important. And much like the, in the podcast world, there's like this elephant graveyard of three-episode podcasts because people choose something at the outset that is too complex, not interesting enough to them, not energizing, and then they quit, right? So I really think that energize piece is, is huge.

• 1:00:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:39Tim Ferriss?

  And

• 1:00:39Speaker 03

  And joy, like we can find joy in our work, especially if it's like volunteer work, like pick a fun one.

• 1:00:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So for me, part of the reason I've been looking forward to this conversation, well, there are many reasons I've been looking forward to this conversation, including the SAS.

• 1:00:55Speaker 03

  Mostly because I played hard to get.

• 1:00:58Tim Ferriss?

  Mostly because she played hard to get. This is very true, very, very, very true.

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  I don't do it in dating, but apparently I do it with podcast invites.

• 1:01:09Tim Ferriss?

  You know, and it works and it works. So for me, if I'm getting all vulnerable and stuff.

• 1:01:16Speaker 03

  Bring it on.

• 1:01:16Tim Ferriss?

  The last two years have been very difficult for me from the perspective of existential distress and just disappointment in humanity in general. That's why when people are like, oh, what are you doing for philanthropy? I'm like, I'm not sure that's the right word because like Phil Anthro, like anthropology, I don't actually like humans that much. And

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  Humans are consistently disappointing, aren't they?

• 1:01:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And so the last two years, I've just been like, we're fucked. I just, I don't see how we write this shit.

• 1:01:49Speaker 03

  But like, how fucked do you want to be?

• 1:01:52Tim Ferriss?

  Well, so it's like in my mind, I'm thinking, well, it's like if COVID, this clear and present danger that is literally killing people right in front of us, can't get political leaders to coordinate or cooperate, how are we going to handle this like iceberg that we're heading towards? That is, you know, on the range of possibly decades away. And I understand it's not a, a switch that gets flipped, but

• 1:02:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's here.

• 1:02:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's here. And I was just like, God, you know, maybe I should just, you know, pick up pottery, take some watercolor classes and just enjoy it while it lasts. Because I think we're, make some pickles. And what I think

• 1:02:35Tim Ferriss?

  Got me, well, I wasn't totally on the bench, right? I was listening to things like your podcast. I've been reading books. I've read Drawdown. I would actually love your thoughts on that. Because they rank, and I don't know if their algorithm or their method is scientifically credible. I just don't know. But the book was given to me.

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  It's very good. And their new version, the Drawdown review, available for free online. I can share the link with you, is wonderful. And like the graphic design makes everything super clear.

• 1:03:02Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I'll tie this in then, because I went through Drawdown. I paid particular attention to the back and the appendices. And I looked at where my strengths and enthusiasm might overlap. And I was like, okay, I see that refrigerants is really, really high.

• 1:03:18Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:03:19Tim Ferriss?

  But I just, I don't know anything about refrigerants. It doesn't excite me. I don't have any particular knowledge or network related to refrigerants. But there were somewhere, I was like, okay, I could actually see becoming involved in, say, aquaculture. And spoke to a number of people, I won't mention by name, but who are very, very, some of the smartest technologists in the world who I know, right? And they, they mentioned that they thought some of the most promising interventions were ocean-based. And talked about different organizations and companies, you know, climate works and carbon removal. Things like Charm Industrial, which I find super, super, super interesting.

• 1:03:57Tim Ferriss?

  And a name that we chatted about before we started recording, Chris Saka, also got me very interested in looking at sort of solutions-focused, obviously market-driven technologies that might play a role. And the reason that got me excited is not because I'm a techno-optimist, who's like, we can fuck up everything. Because, you know, there'll be this like Deus ex machina, like God out of the sky who will save us with some new technology. I don't really endorse that kind of approach. But the idea that you could align just the most cold-blooded

• 1:04:34Tim Ferriss?

  Capitalist animal to do the right thing in self-interest for the collective. Does that make sense? It was very exciting.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  There's a lot of money to be made in green energy, in food system shifts, in transportation. All of it. Yeah.

• 1:04:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, huge. And so that got me very excited. And you might laugh at me, but another thing that got me off the bench was the recent breakthroughs in fusion technologies. And I know the joke is like fusion's always 30 years away. But looking at it more closely, I was like, you know what?

• 1:05:11Tim Ferriss?

  Man, there are so many ways this this might not work and so many challenges. But if it does, this could be extremely, extremely, I mean exponentially more effective than many of these these other technologies that are that are being brought to bear on the problem. Not to say that's the only option, right? Because I think that's a hail Mary or some people view it as a hail Mary. But it was it was fusion that got me really excited. And, you know, I'm looking at a text from a friend of mine. He's saying, you know, advanced geothermal ocean wind looked very promising. So you mentioned the, I'm not sure the phrasing you used, but the the ocean wind I think is very interesting. Offshore wind.

• 1:05:53Tim Ferriss?

  And these are also places where, so I'll give you just a quick example that maps for me in my mind. So I've spent many years now and thousands of hours on psychedelic science and medicine and therapeutics and so on. I've I made a decision very early on not to invest in any for-profit companies because I wanted to preserve my ability to kind of critique and comment on the space and to be viewed as unbiased. So that was my decision. But I did a lot of fundraising and I've raised, certainly I'd be in the top, I'd say three people who've raised money in the space. But as soon as a few for-profit companies began to show promise and went public.

• 1:06:35Tim Ferriss?

  For better and for worse, a lot of the people who were donating to the nonprofits completely abandoned it and went to for-profit. And I think there are issues with that related to IP and otherwise. But I do think that just based on the number of limited partners, meaning investors and so on, who have started to plow money into some of these technologies we're talking about, that got me excited because you could finally, in my mind, sort of align in an exciting way, individual self-interest, even if they don't give a shit about the environment, which preferably they would, but even if they don't, with sort of collective betterment. So what am I gonna do? I'm gonna interview people like you.

• 1:07:18Speaker 03

  Great.

• 1:07:19Tim Ferriss?

  I'm going to have entrepreneurs on the podcast who are, and I want to make this really clear, putting climate aside, putting all of that aside, really incredible thinkers and entrepreneurs and builders.

• 1:07:35Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:35Tim Ferriss?

  At the end of the day, like, they can stand on their own two feet from that perspective. So their story is interesting, much like Bren, even if you take sort of climate out of it, or any politics out of it. And I'll be investing, right? Like, I'm investing. I've done a lot of early-stage investing, and I've started in the last six to 12 months, especially putting, I would say, probably at this point, like, the majority of my investing dollars into some of these startups.

• 1:08:03Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 1:08:05Tim Ferriss?

  So, that's what I'm gonna do. And, you know, we'll see where it goes, but I feel

• 1:08:08Speaker 03

  I'm into it. I think the highlighting people doing the work is interesting because, in many cases, it's so surprising, because people don't think about the full spectrum of ways you can be a part of the solution. So showing like, oh, no, you can be like a tycoon and do this. You can be a technurd and do this. You can be a technologist and do this. You can be... A health nut and do this, like whatever is your thing, we need you. And I think that's really exciting. That's actually the same approach that we took with the anthology that I co-edited, All We Can Save, which is this collection of forty or so essays by women leading on climate work. And to see side by side

• 1:08:49Speaker 03

  an essay by a woman who led the Beyond Coal campaign at the Sierra Club, which has effectively shut down over three hundred coal-fired power plants in the US in the last decade. This is not peanuts. This is the transformation, right? To that side by side with a supermodel writing about how the fashion industry is part of the problem, and an artist writing about how she's part of the solution, and a landscape architect talking about how we're gonna protect coastal cities by replanting more oysters and thinking about how we design our coastlines differently, right? Having a farmer tell the stories of how they've shifted their practices and are training the next generation. All of these are super interesting and like, I haven't said climate once, right?

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  Like, it's about this like cool work that people are doing that is contributing to the changes that we need to see. And honestly, it's stuff that would need to happen even if climate change weren't a problem. Because burning coal is really bad for our health, and it's bad for the planet, even if it didn't change the climate. Because fast fashion is really dangerous for for people and the planet in other ways. It's toxic and bad for workers, right? Like, it's not a good thing anyway. Eating industrial food full of pesticides is not good for us anyway, and it's not good for the planet or the climate. And so I think you're right, that for so many of the solutions that we have, they are better jobs, they result in cleaner water,

• 1:10:14Speaker 03

  cleaner air, things are just more beautiful and green, and we can still make plenty of money. It's just a better world, full stop, on all these different levels. And so you can actually, in many cases, take climate out of the equation, because fossil fuels are bad for our health. Right? They are so bad for maternal health, right? It is really dangerous for babies to be exposed to all these toxins. We know that there's like associated with like birth weight and birth defects and all of these other problems, not to mention what's happening in coal mining communities with public health and black lung and all of these things and the pollution of the waterways and the loss of ecosystems.

• 1:10:58Speaker 03

  So I think, yeah, sure, if you want to do this for another reason besides climate, that's fine with me. We need to get it done.

• 1:11:06Tim Ferriss?

  Not to mention fertility overall is just terrifying to see.

• 1:11:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Tim Ferriss?

  With, uh, I'm not sure what you would call them, microplastics and so on. And it's, uh, terrifying. People, people should watch, uh, Children of Men as a preview.

• 1:11:21Speaker 03

  Ooh, I haven't seen that.

• 1:11:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's brutal. It's worth checking out. It's pretty dystopian, but it's not, um, it's not improbable.

• 1:11:29Speaker 03

  Have you seen the new film, Don't Look Up?

• 1:11:33Tim Ferriss?

  No. What's that?

• 1:11:35Speaker 03

  Adam McKay directed it, this new film. He directed like, I don't know, uh, Vice, you know, which on Saturday Night Live. He's a, he's a comedy writer and it stars Leonardo DiCaprio and Jennifer Lawrence. Um, and all these other, it stars, that it Meryl Streep and Tyler Perry and all these folks. And it's basically like a satire, a parable where this comet is coming to hit the earth and, and we sort of ignore it. And there's this whole campaign that says, don't look up, you know? And like Meryl Streep plays the president and she's more worried about getting votes than about like deflecting this comet from like ruining all life on earth. And some technologist is like, wait, we could just mine the comet.

• 1:12:19Speaker 03

  Like, let's not deflect it. And all of this stuff, right? It is this like anxiety inducing for anyone who's been trying to communicate on climate for years, piece of cinema. And the point was to spark more conversation on climate and do it in a way that uses humor. So when you said you appreciated How to Save a Planet, which, you know, the podcast I co-created, because it was funny, at least to you, I really appreciated that because I think we need more climate media that is. Deploying humor, because humor, quantitatively, we know, is a way to like have people open their minds to new ideas, right? When you're laughing, you're not fighting.

• 1:13:02Speaker 03

  You're you're able to listen. It helps you let your guard down. It helps you like be in community with people in a different way. And so I actually just released an op ed today, co-authored with the director. The title is Why Our Secret Weapon Against The Climate Crisis Could Be Humor.

• 1:13:17Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, amazing.

• 1:13:19Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:13:19Tim Ferriss?

  I'll read that.

• 1:13:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, in The Guardian.

• 1:13:21Tim Ferriss?

  We will link to that in the show notes as well. So let me just kind of brain vomit on you for a second.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  That sounds gross.

• 1:13:29Tim Ferriss?

  And then I'd love to love to get your your perspective. So, and again, I don't mean to draw this comparison constantly, but there are some parallels. So in the case of psychedelic science and therapeutics, let's just say MDMA assisted psychotherapy for PTSD, or psilocybin for, let's just say, end of life anxiety in terminal cancer patients, both real research examples, and both are in phase three trials, or have just completed phase three trials. They're very close to the kind of regulatory finish line, per se, and the data look very, very, very good. The tip of the spear that has ended up becoming

• 1:14:07Tim Ferriss?

  incredibly strategically important for all of these, not just cultural narrative changes, but political changes and regulatory changes, has been focusing on the veteran populations who suffer from PTSD, because the veterans have political immunity, in the sense that neither side, Republican nor Democrat, can come out and say, fuck the vets. It just it would be incredibly politically damaging.

• 1:14:41Speaker 03

  While still passing policies that essentially do that.

• 1:14:44Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, right. Exactly. But nonetheless, like, that has become a key piece of the puzzle for allowing both sides to cooperate in any fashion.

• 1:14:56Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:14:57Tim Ferriss?

  And, and I, that's another reason why, although there are a lot of kind of anti-business, anti-capitalist folks on the left, but nonetheless, I think most people recognize that capitalism is kind of the best of the worst options that we have. I've viewed some of the for-profit solutions as one bridge, potentially. Are there other ways you think to get people to cooperate who are on opposite sides of the political spectrum? Are there other bridges or other tricks? Anything?

• 1:15:31Speaker 03

  The one that comes to mind, because you use this example of veterans, is the immense risk that our dependence on fossil fuels places on our armed forces, our military. We are literally fighting wars for oil. We would not have to do that. We would, all those lives would be saved if we were just using sunshine and wind instead, or geothermal, or whatever magical fusion thing you think will happen soon.

• 1:15:56Tim Ferriss?

  Well, hold on, don't put words in my mouth.

• 1:16:00Speaker 03

  Renewable energies. And I think we don't understand that, like, you know, military convoys, like, so many of them are actually just transporting fuel for military operations. And that's what's getting bombed, right? Like, it is putting our soldiers at risk, this dependence. It is creating wars in places where the weather patterns have changed so dramatically that there is famine that leads to unrest, that leads to violence, that leads to the United States getting involved, right? Like, this is a national security issue. This is the safety of our military issue. And so, in some senses, the military has the foresight to say, like, climate change is absolutely happening, how are we going to plan for this?

• 1:16:44Speaker 03

  They are taking steps to think through a lot of those practicalities, but this is, it is extremely disrespectful of our troops.

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  To be putting people in harms way for reasons that don't exist. Like, we just do not have to live this way on this planet. And so I, I wish that people would talk a little bit more about that. And it's the same for thinking about our naval bases, all on the coast, all at risk of sea level rise and storms. We have, you know, in Norfolk, Virginia, the big base there. Access is cut off during high rains, the street floods because of sea level rise. Right. And so that is absolutely a national security and safety issue. There's a lot of stuff on that side that I wish more people would appreciate. If we're going to say, support our troops, that means we have to deal with climate change.

• 1:17:35Speaker 03

  I think, on the other side, just the joy of nature. Like, the ability to go for a hike, the ability to enjoy springtime, the ability to be outside in the summer and not melt. The ability to go skiing, the ability to go scuba diving on a coral reef. All these pleasures that exist because nature has been relatively stable for a long time. Like, I would love to go skiing this winter in driving distance of New York City, but not looking really good right now for snow. And so, thinking about it from not just self-interest or financial gain, which there are plenty of arguments for that as well,

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  but thinking about it from the things that we love to do in the world being all at risk. I mean, coffee, chocolate, wine, all of this is getting turned upside down by the changes in our climate that we can't grow these things as well anymore. Wildfires in Napa, obviously no good for many reasons. So I think we could be a bit more hedonistic about why we should do something to preserve our, our Dionysian pleasures in the world.

• 1:18:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, if you don't want, I mean, I was, I was watching a program on wine production and how that has shifted and how things are being grown in the UK that 50 years ago couldn't have been grown in the UK. And I don't know, somebody had mentioned this to me, I didn't fact check it, but that a lot of lobster harvesting is moving to Canada due to climate change.

• 1:19:07Speaker 03

  Lobster used to be very common in Long Island Sound, no longer here, and starting to move out of Maine and even further north into Nova Scotia.

• 1:19:16Tim Ferriss?

  Let me ask you a question about your episodes.

• 1:19:18Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:19:19Tim Ferriss?

  Of the podcast, because I gave my best shot, but you've certainly listened to more episodes than I have. Which episodes, which episodes?

• 1:19:27Speaker 03

  I do listen to them all after and I like do a game tape thing. I'm like, how could I've done that better? How could that joke have landed?

• 1:19:33Tim Ferriss?

  You do?

• 1:19:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:34Tim Ferriss?

  Are you serious?

• 1:19:34Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:19:35Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, alright.

• 1:19:35Speaker 03

  Everyone has a learning experience.

• 1:19:37Tim Ferriss?

  All the better, since you're doing these post-game analyses, to ask the question I wanted to ask, which is, which episodes worked the best and which would you have done differently to have them work better? And by work, you're, you're in a unique position to speak to working because you always had a call to action. So, so, so I suppose another way to phrase this would be, which episodes have had the biggest impacts and which would you have done differently to have them have a greater impact? If you could maybe give an example of each?

• 1:20:12Speaker 03

  This is a question I would love to be able to answer quantitatively, but I can't. I don't think there's like robust tracking of like who's clicking what and taking what actions afterwards. I sort of like wanted there to be a whole dashboard built out and the whole thing. I, I did not get my wish. And I also had myself taken off the, the email distribution for all incoming listener mail, because it was just too much. So I don't even have sort of like a firm qualitative grasp after the first few episodes. But I think. For a bunch of episodes, we had the same call to action, which was, "Call your members of Congress."

• 1:20:53Speaker 03

  Because this is our chance to pass federal climate policy through the combination of the infrastructure bill, which did pass and had some climate measures in it, and the Build Back Better Plan, which has way more in terms of the energy transition, supporting the shift to electric cars, all sorts of infrastructure and federal-related things that we need to see happen. We encourage people to call their members of Congress and say, "I support this. I think we should have a good climate policy in America. I think we should have a civilian climate corps that puts Americans to work restoring and protecting our ecosystems and building physically this transition. I think we should have offshore wind energy in this country.

• 1:21:38Speaker 03

  We've got a lot of ocean. We've got a lot of wind. And I think we should have 100% clean electricity by 2035, which is the goal. We can get there, but we gotta get it going." And so encouraging people, offering specific talking points. This is not partisan. This is just like, we need the federal government to do its part in jump-starting this transition, just as they did with innovating the internet or funding Tesla, to get started. The government funds a lot of really important early-stage stuff, R&D, and jumpstarts it. So we had a ton of people calling in, which matters because very few people actually pick up the phone and call their representatives. I'm super, super wussy about it for some reason. Even though I know you can call after hours and just leave a voicemail,

• 1:22:23Speaker 03

  I still get really nervous. But because so few people call, your call has outsized weight. They have to log every call from their constituents. If they get 10 calls and anything, they're like, "What is our position on this?" And they have to develop one. They have to be able to answer to people who elected them. They assume 10 people didn't call, who feel the same way. So your voice actually does have a lot of power in that context. And so seeing people feel like... That actually mattered is a way to leverage, you know, leverage your power as a citizen. And then we also had a lot of people after the electric car episode that were like, I bought an electric car because that episode was great. So it sort of like spans the gamut of people like, I'm eating so much more kelp now.

• 1:23:08Speaker 03

  But I think having this sort of cult action at the end of every episode, whether it's like, try out some seaweed recipes or call your senator. Hopefully there's sort of something for everyone.

• 1:23:20Tim Ferriss?

  All right, I want to mention a couple of things and then jump into some more.

• 1:23:24Speaker 03

  You've got like a smirk with that intro that I'm like, what are you going to mention?

• 1:23:29Tim Ferriss?

  My smirk, I always have a smirk. This is why some people, this is why half of the internet hates me, I'm convinced, is I just have a very punchable face. Like people are like, what's that fucking smirk about?

• 1:23:39Speaker 03

  I can see that.

• 1:23:40Tim Ferriss?

  And I can't erase it. Thank you. It could be, it could be the, you know, Lenin, not as in John Lennon, but as in the, yeah, the sort of Russian propaganda.

• 1:23:51Speaker 03

  Communist leader.

• 1:23:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. The, the American History X look that I can't seem to avoid might be the problem. But a couple of things I want to mention just for people listening. First is if you want to see some of the coolest companies I've come across anywhere, go to Lower Carbon Capital. This is Chris Saka and team. You will see some of the craziest, coolest things you can possibly imagine. Just check that out. Another is to echo what, what you just said, the calls really matter. I, I have interviewed Arnold Schwarzenegger on the podcast, uh, once, maybe twice. And I've gotten to know his team and I've gotten to know a number of other lawmakers. And precisely as you said, because so few people call,

• 1:24:36Tim Ferriss?

  if you get a few dozen people to call or a few hundred people to call, they will pay attention. And also the question I have for you is about cultural pressure and getting to some type of tipping point with respect to elected officials. And here's the phrasing of the question. I think expecting politicians to do anything that does not assist them in getting elected or reelected is probably naive. In the same way that to expect most public company CEOs to plan 20 years out is unrealistic if they're being rewarded based on quarterly results.

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  Or say, take a 1% loss to save the planet.

• 1:25:16Tim Ferriss?

  Right, well, so, right, I think, I think, I think just people respond to incentives.

• 1:25:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:22Tim Ferriss?

  So, so my question for you is, what do you think it will take? Are there kind of next actions that I or other people could be thinking about in the next few years, within the next few years, that could help shift that tide to the point that politicians actually need to think about and take positions?

• 1:25:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:44Tim Ferriss?

  More aggressive positions. Now sadly, it could be in the opposite direction also, but what can we do to make it a matter more?

• 1:25:51Speaker 03

  We need to protect voting rights. The majority of Americans understand that climate change is a massive problem. It's only 9% of Americans who are full-blown climate science deniers.

• 1:26:02Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:26:03Speaker 03

  It is, we have the largest percentage of Americans ever now who are like deeply alarmed about the climate crisis. It's about a third. It's not about getting, and you know, and then there's like alarmed, there's concerned, there's like all these different levels, but it's like the vast majority of Americans are like, holy shit, climate change, what are we gonna do? And so it's not that we don't have the constituency for it, it's that have you seen the shape of these ridiculous congressional districts? The way that they're gerrymandered, that they don't actually reflect communities, that they're just designed to elect a specific party? The voter registration laws, the way they're purging the voter rolls, the way they're requiring all these more forms of identification. So passing the Voting Rights Act, passing voter protections more generally is actually

• 1:26:48Speaker 03

  a really important step because our voices can't be heard as citizens if we can't. Elect the people who share our views because the system is so skewed. And so that is something people, I think, don't think about enough, that like saving the structure of our democracy, of representative democracy, of the electoral process is actually really critical because we already do have the numbers, but we're losing because of that. And one of the organizations that I'm completely enamored with that is doing work along these lines is called the Environmental Voter Project. And what they've identified is that there are 10 million, 16 million sometimes, environmentalists,

• 1:27:33Speaker 03

  self-described, who have, you know, environment is their number one issue, who are already registered to vote and who do not go to the polls. That is the lowest hanging fruit, right? Already registered, already care, need to get them out to vote. And so I volunteer with that organization and serve on their advisory board because we know how close these elections are. They're all like 1%, like a few hundred people in some cases. So getting people to actually go and use their right to vote is super critical. So those are the things that are on my mind now because they're also like, we're coming up on midterm elections and making sure that we make it clear to politicians that we actually, we want you to have a good climate policy platform. We need you to protect your constituents.

• 1:28:16Speaker 03

  In every state, we're dealing with really wild, extreme weather events, from landslides to wildfires, to floods, to droughts, to hurricanes, to tornadoes out of nowhere, to fire tornadoes. I mean, it's crazy. And so this is not a partisan issue. This is about doing your job and protecting your constituents. But I hear you that like, if they don't feel that their reelection is at risk, it doesn't matter. And so we need to protect voting rights. And we also need to think about how elections are funded. The Citizens United Supreme Court case that allowed corporations to fund elections really weakened our democracy dramatically. So like, I know it's sort of well, but like,

• 1:28:59Speaker 03

  overturn Citizens United would be like a great step to climate policy in America because we wouldn't have the Chamber of Commerce and all of these fossil fuel companies and pipeline companies able to literally pay for elections, which is super dangerous. I can't compete with that. So I think just safeguarding our electoral process on the campaign finance side and on the voting rights side are really key.

• 1:29:27Tim Ferriss?

  We will add links to the show notes for everybody with everything that we're talking about, including those organizations. Now, when I hear that, it sounds overwhelmingly complex, like there is next to nothing that I could do in that sphere as someone who also is, I don't want to say-

• 1:29:43Speaker 03

  Are you kidding me?

• 1:29:45Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you tell me then. Let's do a deeper dive then. So like, what could someone who is, has an allergic reaction to politics still do to assist in something like-

• 1:29:57Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know how to deal with your allergy, per se. I don't know, take an antihistamine and just fucking jump in. I think it comes down to like choosing the thing that you care about, right? Like, we can't care about everything. And that's why like Environmental Voter Project for me is like, easy, let's get people who already care, who are already registered to vote to get to the polls. I can do that. I can host phone banks. You could host a phone bank with me. Wouldn't that be a blast? You can tell people to volunteer. You just call your neighbors and be like, hey, we need you to vote, right? Like, pick the person with the good climate platform. It'll be very clear, probably, which person that is. And I think, to think about local elections too, often, you know, at the presidential level or at the senate level, it's a very

• 1:30:42Speaker 03

  different calculus for people who feel very aligned with a particular political party. But when it comes to city council, which is where your transit and waste management and recycling and composting and bike lane and building code and whatever decisions are getting made in your city governments, you can focus on those elections. It doesn't have to feel so loaded and partisan. It could feel like, we need to get things right where I live. I want to be a part of that. And also, I will say, local elections, you can support candidates and your dollars go way further. Because in a presidential or senate election, you're talking like millions, tens of millions of dollars. Local elections, often the entire budget for a campaign is like 10 grand.

• 1:31:26Speaker 03

  And so, I've hosted fundraisers where we've been able to like double the campaign budget of these local candidates, to help them get their ideas and their platforms out, so that more people will know what they stand for. To me, it makes it feel a lot more both possible and concrete to think about local elections. And there's an organization called Lead Locally that focuses on local candidates with great content platforms. So thinking about like, who's running your port authority? Who's running your railroad commission? Who's running your school board? What are our kids getting taught about how we deal with these challenges? All of those positions really matter too, because it's at the local level that these policies and solutions are often getting implemented. Like, that's where the rubber meets the road.

• 1:32:10Tim Ferriss?

  All right, I'm gonna do a much deeper dive. I'll do some homework. I'll do some homework and we'll have some beers and talk about it.

• 1:32:15Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:32:16Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, the, the-

• 1:32:19Speaker 03

  Do you drink beer? So much gluten.

• 1:32:21Tim Ferriss?

  No, I don't.

• 1:32:22Speaker 03

  Full of pesticides. Wheat is like one of the highest pesticide crops, you know? Glycosate, super dangerous for your sperm count.

• 1:32:28Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned beer before we got started. You're the one who started this whole thing.

• 1:32:34Tim Ferriss?

  I like tequila. Tequila and gin.

• 1:32:36Speaker 03

  Okay. You can have tequila, olive mescol, we'll like meet on the internet.

• 1:32:40Tim Ferriss?

  You know, we could have some Sotol. That's a, that's a whole separate thing. It's kind of like a mixture. It's, anyway, we'll get into it another time.

• 1:32:46Speaker 03

  That answer to me, I'll taste it.

• 1:32:48Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So, the, the, the question that I want to ask you is related to a term I brought up earlier, which I think about. It's not the way that everyone thinks about these things, but the minimum effective dose. And what I mean by that is, what are some small things that people can do that don't require sacrifices? And they may be things they're not even aware have the magnitude of impact that they do. And one I wanted to give as an example, right? Because I think sometimes people who have causes- Try to shame the hell out of people and ask them to change all of their behaviors and it just doesn't work, right? So I'm always looking for the gateway drug. Like, what is something really small that won't get a lot of pushback from most people?

• 1:33:32Tim Ferriss?

  And I thought we would start with an example, which is on the FAQ at your website, the FAQ, shrimp. Could you talk about shrimp, please? Because this is a great example.

• 1:33:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. I will say, I appreciate the need for people to have a place to start, but I also object to the framing that there's, the way people often ask me the question, which is like, what's one simple thing I can do to like, save the planet? I'm like, maybe like, what's the first thing you can do? So I think, okay, shrimp. Here's the rundown.

• 1:34:07Tim Ferriss?

  Let me, let me just say one thing before we move on, because I know you got shrimp covered with your, your eyes closed. I feel like if people believe that they are just getting the first homework assignment of a never-ending list.

• 1:34:22Speaker 03

  It doesn't have to be homework.

• 1:34:25Tim Ferriss?

  I'm just saying, if that's the way it's framed, if they're like, one little thing isn't good enough, they'll be like, you know what? Then I'm out. Like, if, if I don't, if this is Pandora's box that is, and I'm never going to get positive reinforcement, then I'm just not going to do anything, because why would I?

• 1:34:39Speaker 03

  Who said you weren't getting positive reinforcement?

• 1:34:41Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 1:34:42Speaker 03

  I will be so proud of you when you do that one thing. Imagine what happens when you do 10 things, how proud of you I will be. I think this, I, I get it. It's just like, it's this human behavior thing, and I, I've, I've definitely like, grumbled that if I wanted to be useful, I should have gotten a degree in psychology, because this is all about how people make decisions and what motivates people. And like, I'm not an expert in that, but I know that like, if we each do one little thing. We will not solve the entire climate crisis and like prevent apocalypse.

• 1:35:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yep, I agree.

• 1:35:16Speaker 03

  Right? And so figuring out like, that's why the Venn diagram is like, what brings you joy? Like, do that. Do it more than once, you know? So I'm, I'm here for the, the delights and the positive reinforcement. And I would say that one way to make that happen is to not do it alone. Like, do this with your homies. Like, do this with your family. Do this with your friends. Do this with your group texts. Like, find a thing that you all enjoy doing. Um, and there's a very cool website that Patagonia made, full disclosure, I'm on their board. It's called Action Works and it's what they call skill-based volunteering. And so you can go to the website and search like by the things that you're good at.

• 1:35:58Speaker 03

  Like, I'm good at video editing. Okay, great. This nonprofit needs help making a video about installing bike lanes in the community. Um, or you're good at event planning and you're like, oh, this nonprofit's doing a thing. Like, I could volunteer and help them do that. Or, oh, this other group needs help with their accounting. Like, they just don't have that expertise in-house. And you're an accountant, you can help with that. So I think things like that, that feel like specifically useful can often keep us going and you're contributing to something that's bigger. And maybe you like working with those people. Maybe they're delightful.

• 1:36:33Tim Ferriss?

  And, and then we have also things like shrimp, which is, for me, I will say, it's not just one simple thing and then you're done.

• 1:36:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:40Tim Ferriss?

  It's a way to trick people into thinking more about these things.

• 1:36:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:45Tim Ferriss?

  That's it, right? And then you've opened the, the door, so to speak. So shrimp, I'll just give my like personal quick take. I read this today and I was like, I was like, holy shit, my friend talked. I remember a friend talking about this and the fact of the matter is like,

• 1:36:59Speaker 03

  The bummer.

• 1:37:00Tim Ferriss?

  You know, I, I have shrimp, but it's like, I don't need shrimp. I don't like them that much. It's easy for me to avoid in the same way that I saw like my octopus teacher and I was like, I don't need dead octopus.

• 1:37:11Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:37:11Tim Ferriss?

  Even when they're in Japan and everything. I don't need octopus.

• 1:37:14Speaker 03

  You need them alive in the ocean being charming and weird.

• 1:37:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yep. So shrimp, I keep stumbling, uh, I keep interfering. Please tell us about shrimp.

• 1:37:23Speaker 03

  If there's one seafood you should probably stop eating, it is the most popular seafood in America, which is shrimp. Because there's, there's basically like two ways that it gets to your plate and they're both horrible. There's very minor exceptions, but you'll know if you're part of the exception because you will be paying a lot of money for these very special shrimp. But in general shrimp either comes from the wild ocean, in which case that there's a a net that's dragged along the seafloor. And shrimp are pretty tiny, so it's a pretty fine mesh net, so it's catching like everything else that's there and sort of bulldozing the the seafloor habitat. And all of that stuff that they pull up, most of it just is maybe, sometimes it's like 10% shrimp.

• 1:38:08Speaker 03

  And so the rest is often thrown back dead or dies because it's coming up from such depth that it basically gets, it gets decompression sickness, all these fish. And so the the waste associated with that type of fishing is enormous. The habitat damage is really significant. And also often the labor practices on those boats are truly horrific. And then on the flip side, you can farm shrimp, aquaculture in in coastal ponds. And to do that, which is mostly happening in Southeast Asia, they're they're bulldozing the mangroves, which are ecosystems that absorb a lot of carbon and protect the shorelines from things like tsunamis. After that big tsunami, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, places that had intact mangroves actually

• 1:38:50Speaker 03

  did much better than places that didn't have a natural barrier left. And so you're bulldozing this ecosystem, which is also the habitat for all the juvenile fish that you would otherwise be catching offshore, their nursery. And you're putting in these high-density ponds of shrimp and you're feeding them all this food and all the shrimp are pooping and then they're all getting diseases and you're putting antibiotics and like things to kill lice and all these chemicals and it's polluting the local environment. And I don't really want to eat shrimp that's grown that way. And then often in the processing side of things, enslaved people are used to peel those shrimp if you get like pre-peeled frozen shrimp from Southeast Asia.

• 1:39:32Speaker 03

  I would not feel good about eating that for people or the planet. So that's why I'm like, eh, let's just stop with the shrimp. Unless it's like Oregon trap caught pink shrimp or like recirculating aquaculture Florida shrimp. Right? Like, but those are sort of fancy and you'll know if that's what you're getting. I know it's a bummer shrimp cocktail, like very iconic, but they're also kind of like eating bugs. Yeah, let's move past it. I know eating bugs is cool and high protein and low impact and whatever, but not really.

• 1:40:03Tim Ferriss?

  You know, as someone who has eaten a fair number of crickets, I take offense. Although interestingly enough, if someone has a shellfish allergy, they should also not eat any insect based proteins because the allergy

• 1:40:17Speaker 03

  Noted.

• 1:40:18Tim Ferriss?

  is the same. So if you can't eat shrimp, don't, don't eat too many arthropods elsewhere. Let me ask you, and we're going to wrap up in a few minutes. I know this has gone plenty long, so thank you very much for the time.

• 1:40:28Speaker 03

  I look forward to editing it down to its essence.

• 1:40:31Tim Ferriss?

  We'll see, we'll see. Probably won't do too much editing. I'm no, I'm no gimlet. Well, Dr. Johnson, do you go by Dr. Johnson? Is it Dr. Elizabeth Johnson? Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, I know would be the full.

• 1:40:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, Dr. Johnson occasionally. I mean, you know, sometimes a little gravitas doesn't hurt when you're trying to get your opinions heard. But you may call me Ayana.

• 1:40:57Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, thank you, Ayana. Beautiful flower. Is that what your name is?

• 1:41:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, it does, which was very stressful for me for a while because I was like, well, that's a lot of pressure. But turns out there's like a lot of different flowers and they're all beautiful and it's not this sort of singular thing. So now I'm cool with it.

• 1:41:13Tim Ferriss?

  It's a great name. So we could, we could talk for many, many more hours. There are all sorts of things I'd love to ask you about. We talked a bit about offshore renewable energy, marine ecosystems, algae biofuel. We didn't really get into regenerative ocean farming. We spoke about a little bit, but we're already at two hours roughly. I don't want to chew up your entire day. What would you like to, before we close up, mention, if anything? Any requests of the audience, anything you'd like to point people to, any complaints about the podcast you'd like to lodge publicly? Anything at all?

• 1:41:47Speaker 03

  This is like a question I should have an answer to, huh?

• 1:41:51Speaker 03

  I mean, I sort of mentioned much of the stuff, right? Like Environmental Voter Project, taking your role as a citizen seriously, thinking about Patagonia's Action Works, to think about ways that you can volunteer using your specific skills. There's also a website called Climate Base. If you are inspired to look for a job more directly in the climate sector, that's a great list of job announcements there at climatebase.org. Obviously, if folks are curious about all these podcast episodes, we're mentioning How to Save a Planet on Spotify. I miss that crew all the time. They are cranking them out and explaining stuff and telling us every week what we should do to help.

• 1:42:33Speaker 03

  And I guess I would say, for those who have trouble seeing where they might fit into climate solutions, I know this is like, kind of lame, but I would recommend the book that I co-edited with Dr. Catherine Wilkinson, which is called All We Can Save. And the subtitle is Truth, Courage, and Solutions for the Climate Crisis. So it's very forward-looking, and it'll give you these examples of all these different ways that people have creatively found to be a part of this transformation that we need to have. And there's some comics and poems and stuff in there, too. So it's a, sort of works on whatever level you want to approach it with on a given day. And that I found really interesting to help to curate, because I really see it as like,

• 1:43:18Speaker 03

  forty essays are forty different doors into how we can participate in climate solutions. It's not just solar panels and electric cars, although I like both of those things. There's a lot more to this. And what I'm doing next, which I would say, I guess, like, keep your eye out, is I'm gonna stop doing interviews on other people's podcasts and write the book that I was supposed to write last year, which is tentatively titled, What If We Get It Right? And it's entirely focused on talking about the futures that we could have if we charge ahead with all these solutions that we have at our fingertips. So there's visions of climate futurism.

• 1:44:01Speaker 03

  And I think that question is so powerful. Like, what if we get it right? Like, what if we do what we're supposed to do? Like, show me that it's worth the effort. Because it is effort, and change is hard, and like, humans are not often that into change. And so thinking about it through that lens, I find to be really energizing. Like, what if we get it right, you guys? Like, wouldn't that be great? Like, don't you want to be a part of that? And so I'll be doing interviews as a big part of that book. And I'm collaborating with artists. I have this very cool fellowship through the Headland Center for the Arts to have artists help to visualize some of the themes that I'm working with. And so I would just encourage everyone to think about that question. What is the future that we want?

• 1:44:45Speaker 03

  And how can you be a part of shaping that? As opposed to fighting the past or like the bad guys or against fossil fuels or whatever? Like, what are you for? What do you want to see more of?

• 1:44:58Tim Ferriss?

  That is an excellent title. I'm looking forward to that. That's a great title. Awesome, you know.

• 1:45:04Speaker 03

  You know.

• 1:45:04Tim Ferriss?

  Good titles are helpful.

• 1:45:05Speaker 03

  Twenty twenty-three. Stay tuned.

• 1:45:09Tim Ferriss?

  And people can learn more about All We Can Save at allwconsave.earth.

• 1:45:14Speaker 03

  Pretty good URL, yeah.

• 1:45:16Tim Ferriss?

  That is a, that is a great URL. They can find you on Twitter and Instagram, at Ayana Eliza, as in Elizabeth. And they can find you on your website, ayanaelizabeth.com. There's urbanoceanlab.org. And then, as I mentioned, allwconsave.earth. How much fun. This has been great. Hopefully it wasn't too.

• 1:45:40Speaker 03

  Thanks so much for having me.

• 1:45:42Tim Ferriss?

  Punishing.

• 1:45:43Speaker 03

  And your.

• 1:45:43Tim Ferriss?

  And boring.

• 1:45:44Speaker 03

  Sturdy questions.

• 1:45:47Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you. I'm all about sturdy questions. And anything else you would like to add?

• 1:45:52Speaker 03

  Step it up, Tim. We need you.

• 1:45:57Tim Ferriss?

  I'm working on it. And I am gonna be, and I am gonna be stepping it up. Uh, thank you so much, Dr. Johnson.

• 1:46:04Speaker 03

  You can drunk text me if you need some hot climate action solution tips.

• 1:46:07Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, boy, oh, boy. Yeah, drunk texting. That is another. If you're gonna ask, what superpower did I get from my parents? It might be drunk texting.

• 1:46:15Speaker 03

  That's not to be underrated, that, that sort of like, that clarity.

• 1:46:19Tim Ferriss?

  It has its place.

• 1:46:20Speaker 03

  That truth telling, you know? That messy, messy truth telling.

• 1:46:26Tim Ferriss?

  The mess of reality that we all navigate. Sometimes you need a drunk text or two. And for everybody listening, thank you for tuning in. You can find the show notes, links to everything that we have discussed and more at tim.blog/podcast. And until next time, thank you for tuning in. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things

• 1:47:11Tim Ferriss?

  I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.

• 1:47:55Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:48:40Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:49:25Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:50:06Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:50:50Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:51:35Tim Ferriss?

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